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Viet Dinh Defends The Patriot Act
Grrr writes "Wired News has posted an interview with Viet Dinh, who worked on the PATRIOT Act for the Justice Department. In the past he said, "Security without liberty - it's not an America I would want to live in." And also, in this interview, "I think right now at this time and this place the greatest threat to American liberty comes from al-Qaida and their sympathizers rather than from the men and women of law enforcement and national security who seek to defend America and her people against that threat." Several of his replies are (predictably / necessarily / discouragingly) less than direct."
Quit agitating about the PA or the DMCA or anything - just smile and nod! Take a lesson from our Communist Brothers, you only get a quick trip to the Gulag (American Homeland Version) or a nice IRS audit.
but everyone around the office calls him Charlie.
isn't the objective of terrorism to terrorize people? the more "ACTs" we have the more obvious we're really really scared of terrorists.
now not only people are terrorized by terrorists for physical dangers, they're also terrorized by their own government for privacy invasion.
How so?
I usually see posts like yours. Rarely do I see reasoned posts which elaborate.
In the interest of fair debate and converstation, list your reasons and if possible, point to the particular pieces of legislation.
-- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
Planes aren't being hijacked because we stop the dreaded nail clipper from coming on board.
wants to be the first monkey to touch the monolith
"Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin
Slashdot's first reaction to VMware
Everyone was uber-patriotic and wanting to kill any Middle Eastern man who looked at them wrong.
There was actually not much debate in Congress. The Patriot Act passed through very easily. The only problem was that it takes away our checks and balances system of government, which is part of what makes American such a great country.
Don't trust me, though. Read what one website said: "The FBI can now access your most private medical records, your library records, and your student records... and can prevent anyone from telling you it was done.
The Department of Justice is expected to introduce a sequel, dubbed PATRIOT II, that would further erode key freedoms and liberties of every America.
Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate. Ex-O'Reilly/MIT employee, now a full-time Google employee.
How would something that you claim is so horrible get voted into law then?
Same way hitler managed to convince his people that 'jews' were the enemy.
Its called scare tatics.
I highly doubt the DESTROY part where you say we lose our rights. This thing had to be voted for by hundreds of senate/congress men.
Well, you can doubt all you want. Doesn't change the fact that america has made a mistake by following those who have already failed in history. And no, millions, like yourself, were duped into this law by sensless fear.
Untill america gets a clue, things wont improve.
"I do, however, recognize that the act has been mischaracterized and misunderstood and has engendered a lot of well-meaning and genuine fear, even if that fear is unfounded."
Woah he is taking a stand against unfounded fear, isn't that what he is in the business of selling?
Just look at any discussion. Anonymous Coward is a known troll and agitator! It's true. It's true!
He once said that he was drawn to study the government because he "had seen government that did not work," and he was drawn to the Republican Party because of his hatred for communism.
Anybody who would be drawn to a political ideology purely based on what they oppose is, in my opinion, a dangerous person. Especially when mixed with the power, money and support that an organization like the Republican party has.
Do we really expect one of the authors to be impartial and objective?
Disinterested third parties are the analysts we should be interviewing.
NO, they are wrong. There is a distinct difference between liberties and safety! I don't see how people can be duped into believing that terrorist groups affect liberties!
The only reason they affect liberties is because Congress passes things like the Patriot Act. Otherwise, all they affect is safety.
Terrorists affect SAFETY, Congress affects LIBERTY. Get it straight, and we can all stop falling for this crap coming from Washington. If they said these terrorist groups were the greatest threat to our safety, then I'd buy it. But they are, however, NOT a threat to our liberty.
The Patriot Act is the threat to our liberty, effectively nullifying the Bill of Rights when it comes to searches and siezures, and the right to a FAIR and SPEEDY trial.
Government disheartens me. So do the people who buy crap like this from them and cannot draw the distinction for themselves. Just my (flaming) two cents.
This isn't supposed to be flamebait, but mod it as such if you think it is.
While the US has previously imprisoned people without access to council, these were in dire times, World War II, US Civil War, etc. While some could argue that these are equally troubling times, I find the argument problematic.
In both of the above examples, the very existence of the country was at stake, in one of the two, half the US had broken off. The other, millions of people decided to declare war on the US (Germany, Italy, Japan, etc). Despite the tragedy that was 9-11, the entire attack was planned by dozens of people and executed by about 20.
My second problem is the open-endedness. The suspensions of due process in the above cases were understood as temperary and were lifted as soon as the war was over. These days, presidents don't seem to declare war on things that can possibly be ended by a peace treat (drugs, poverty, terror, etc). Tell me, Mr Bush, is the war on terror going to be over before or after the war on drugs?
The suspension of due process indefinitely is an abomination to liberty, which I could've sworn was what we were fighting for in the first place.
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
and I'll say it again. Gun laws dont keep guns out of the criminals hands.
You really don't have a clue, do you? You think the fact that a bunch of little piggies feeding at the corporate trough represent anyone but their own greedy little power hungry selves? You think because after being subjected to a bunch of hot-button advertisements, people actually vote for them, that they somehow represent the best interests of the population?
"Is this Winkhorst a nova criminal?" "No just a technical sergeant wanted for interrogation."
Secret arrests, supposed "terrorists" being held indefinitely without trial, widespead wiretap priviledges.. the list goes on. Is this what you call a "breeze rustling the trees?"
The Patriot Act is already being abused to prosecute all manner of crimes that have nothing to do with its original intent. If there were any checks and balances in the act itself, this wouldn't be happening.
Pull your head out of your ass and smell the Totalitarianism!
the old saying "if the only tool you have is a hammer, you will tend to see every problem as a nail". maybe that's why everybody's treated as terrorists now.
This question is a bit slippery because it is difficult to name civil liberites at all. Even the ones that aren't being taken away. It might be a better measure to ask people how they feel about their freedom. Do people think twice about doing certain things that they might not have done before. Do they feel their privacy is being encroached upon. Are they more worried now about what the government can do to them.
Civil liberty is a gut feeling, not a simple enumeration.
Being locked up for no listed crime, with no represnetative, for being of a certain faith and descent, is what i would term a violated civil liberty.
Just look at the history of law enforcement. They begged for the ability to seize the property of drug dealers, and were granted that power by short sighted politicians. Now that power is used to steal cars from people never even charged with a crime - in complete violation of the Constitution, but what's the shredding of that moldy old paper when stopping evil drug dealers?
-- Will program for bandwidth
Come on, folks, of course he's going to defend the PATRIOT ACT - he wrote the damn thing. Of course he's going to defend its enforcement - he helped enforce the damn thing. And of course he's going to be vague about the illegal/unconstitutional parts of the act, or of its enforcement - you think he wants to go to prison?
I support Viet Dinh's use of his 5th Amendment rights in this article.
What I don't support is the many parts of this act, and its enforcement, that are illegal, unconstitutional, immoral, and so far beyond the scope of Federal powers as to shock the imagination. I'm about ready to start looking into how we can find a strong libertarian presidential candidate who has a good chance of being elected. Along with a willing Congress, I'd like nothing more than to see the Federal government stripped down better than an unattended Corvette in south-central LA on a Friday night.
I want to see the Federal government up on cinder blocks, with the states standing around checking out their new goodies. Things are getting out of hand. We're spending more than $400 Billion a year on our military, just so we can stretch it to the breaking point by playing parent to the world. We're spending... well, we don't know how much we're spending on the very intelligence agencies that watch our every move. Why don't we know how much we're spending? Sorry, that's classified. Well, what are you doing with my money? Sorry, that's classified. Why is it classified?! It's my money! Sorry, that's classified. Well what am I getting in return for my unknown investment? Safety. Could you be more specific? Sorry, that's classified.
It's about time for a change. I wonder how much longer it will be before Americans can get together enough courage to dismantle the bulk of the Federal government. Are we ready for 10 - 20 years of readjustment, the end result of which is far more freedom and a return to the Constitutional Republic we once had? Or shall we sit on our collective asses for a bit longer while Uncle Sam's goons start doing random cavity searchs to see what we might be hiding?
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
The Patriot Act is now being used for non terrorist cases.
I guess I would trust Bush'es administration a tad more if they were not using the excuse of 9/11 to prosecute organizations such as Green Peace. A more or less complete story can be found in The Miami Herald. If they are capable of using such antiquated law as ''sailor-mongering,'' (intended to deal with people would board a ship and use liquor and prostitutes to lure away the crew) to prosecute organization that is trying to stop illegal logging, how can you trust them they won't use Patriot act in some insidious way?
A religious war is an adult version of a fight over who has the best imaginary friend
I bet it'll be modded as flamebait, but it's my oppinion anyway, so I'll post it.
I think right now at this time and this place the greatest threat to American liberty comes from Bush and their sympathizers rather than from Al-Qaida.
This works this way: An unjustifiable attack to other countries (like Iraq) leads to more anger from its citizens and even other countries. Now we have not just one group of loons who hate the US (Al Qaida), but many.
-
Roses are #FF0000, Violets are #0000FF, find / -name '*base*' |xargs chown -R us && mv zig greatjustice
Yeah, because, you know, Al Qaida has hundreds of representatives in every town and city in America. Al Qaida knows where I live. Al Qaida expects a check from me every April. Al Qaida builds my roads, and runs my schools, and comes to my house every day. Al Qaida can get primetime speechs broadcast at any time. Al Qaida has tanks. Al Qaida has a million men and women ready to storm any place on Earth with overwhelming firepower within hours of being given the order. Al Qaida has nuclear submarines. Al Qaida has over a thousand silos in middle America, brimming with thermonuclear might.
In a head to head battle between the US and Al Qaida, I'm betting on Al Qaida.
I'm also looking to buy a bridge, and maybe a beach front condo in Arizona.
"Life's funny sometimes." "And sometimes it isn't." --Cat's Cradle
If your watchdog barks at every breeze that rustles the trees, you aren't getting any good information from it. Maybe it's time to start looking for a new watchdog or to take security into your own hands.
Your statement encapsulates precisely many people's arguments against the Patriot Act. Namely, I'd rather retain my liberty/privacy and take my security into my own hands than allow Big Brother Ashcroft, et al, do whatever he likes, Constitution be damned, in the name of ferreting out communists, oops, I mean terrorists in our midst.
NO, McCarthy, the blacklists. etc. etc. The track record (aka HISTORY) is that this bullshit leads to more bullshit. And people are going to nip it in the bud this time, all these complaints have made sure that it hasn't gone any further. Just think if all these voices hadn't complained what types of laws they would be trying to pass right now.
You are basically saying "You made us take all these vitamins, but we never got ill"....
I think that somebody who doesn't understand the distinction between correlation and causation has no business whatsoever rewriting the Constitution.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
But that's how it starts. As a relatively minor problem. Holocaust magnitude tragedies are only the consequence. I quote from my own website "quotes" page:
Hermann Goering
"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
(at Nurnberg trials)
"If your watchdog barks at every breeze that rustles the trees, you aren't getting any good information from it."
Then again the one time they did ignore the boy who cried wolf was the one real time that the wolf actually came. The price of peace and freedom is eternal vigilance.
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
I'd be very interested in someone asking Viet Dinh substantive questions about specific concerns raised in the Patriot Act, but I'm unable to draw much of any conclusion from reading this article, especially not the same alarmist conclusion that the story submitter has drawn.
Another interpretation I could make, especially based on the story submitter's comments, is that the critics of the Patriot Act are equally incapable of discussing the ramifications of the Act as are its supporters. Unfortunately, it's the job of the critics to do a good job criticizing and they get far too hung up in rhetoric and name-calling to take most of them very seriously and given that the law is now on the books, I think they're going to need to change their tactics if they want to have any substantive effect.
Oh crap, I seem to be falling prey to the standard media script of analyzing process rather than issues.
Considering the moderating history of characters like you, I doubt very much if this guy is just trolling for karma points. He is, as distinguished from folks like you, actually expressing a political opinion about a specific piece of legislation, the so-called Patriot Act, which you obviously haven't read or you wouldn't be calling for specifics. That you're not bright enough to see the writing on the wall just puts you in the category of a lot of Germans before World War II. It doesn't make you objective and it doesn't make you enlightened. It just makes you look stupid, which isn't surprising because you obviously are. Some folks take freedom seriously. Others have the Constitution printed on toilet paper and think it's funny to wipe their butts on it. Guess which category you fall into? You want to give away your rights, go right ahead. You try to give away MY rights and you will answer for it. You think the Republicans will be in power forever? Don't take any long odds on little George staying out of jail for subversion of the electoral process. Stealing elections is a federal crime.
"Is this Winkhorst a nova criminal?" "No just a technical sergeant wanted for interrogation."
Can you name me any totalitarian country where your remark would have been tolerated?
SIG:Slashdot: indymedia for nerds.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin
President George Dubious Bush was on the tube tonight asking Congress to pass a constitutional amendment banning homosexual marriage. I guess he must figure that for every constitutional amendment he destroys the right thing to do is to put one back.
Liberals call everyone Nazis yet they are the closest thing to it.
From the article:
If indeed that is your fear or that is your perception then engage in the democratic process. Back up your argument, back up your belief with facts, marshal evidence in order to convince those who are engaged in the process of governance.
Vinh's attitude is that he is "governing" and that we have to come to him with information to change his mind. He does not view himself as a public servant obviously. It is his job to convince the citizens of the United States (not the "governed of the United States") that he needs the tools he has asked for. It is his job to convince the citizens that hsi approach is correct. We do not need to "convince" those who are currently tasked with governing the country. We need to vote their political masters out and get some people in with better attitudes.
YOU CANNOT PRESERVE FREEDOM BY DESTROYING IT
I hate to seem like I am shouting, but I am shouting. What the Patriot Act does to the civil liberties of citizens is unconstitutional and wrong. There is no way that any part of that law should be renewed. It is essentially a declaration that the terrorists won. This is not what I want, and I don't think it is what the American people want to say to the rest of the world.
Always look on the briight side of life! (whistle, whistle)
Do not kid yourself, the Patriot Act is permanent. Legislation like this which is originally intended to address a current problem (Al Quida) has a way of lingering around long after the problem is no longer around to justify its existince.
The patriot act may look like a drop in the bucket, but do some research into how the founding fathers viewed strong centralized government versus what we actually have today and you can see how each of these minute changes has managed to turn this country upside down.
Couldn't these statements be turned into the following?
Now he sounds more like a Palestinian suicide bomber.
I *DO NOT* write this in opposition to Israelis or in support of Palestinians, or vice versa. That is merely the example I chose. Substitute the name of whatever nation and suicide bombers you want.
My point is that this person cites the fact that, as a young child, he saw bad things done to has parents, and the resulting hatred, as major influences in his life. This hardly seems to be the person to make objective assessments then write an act such as PATRIOT. By my reading of the article, he is a fanatic and an extremist, the very disease he claims to be fighting.
It took someone from a communist country to change the US into a totalitarian State.
Hello? He FLED AWAY FROM a communist country.
From the article:
Dinh's mother escaped with him and five of his siblings to the United States.
Dinh: I think it is very easy to employ sweeping rhetoric and personal denunciations. I think it is much harder to back it up with facts and concrete examples. [...]
And it is much harder still to back up any sort of reasonable discussion up with facts and concrete examples when the people defending the act in question also have discretion over the facts and concrete examples that are released for public review.
I forget what 8 was for.
Read the constitution. There is no explicit constitutional right to privacy. The "Right to Privacy" is based on an interpretation, privacy regarded as an "implied" right, i.e. useful for persuing liberty and hapiness. But the interpretation could just as go the other way. I personally beleive in "reciprocal privacy", i.e. everything the government is allowed to know about me, I should be allowed to know about everybody on the government payroll -- especially Ashcroft.
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
I think right now at this time and this place the greatest threat to American liberty comes from al-Qaida and their sympathizers
A threat to American liberty? Sure they're a threat, but how on earth can a small, loosely knit band only really capable of random destruction threaten liberty? They may threaten building, airplanes, and (heaven forbid) a city, but the exact same destruction is wreaked on a larger scale around the world by natural disasters.
You need a large army, militia or police force to threaten liberty.
:wq
Well, obviously some part of it has already been rules unconstitutional. That's a start. If it shows anything, that is:
1. The legal process is finally getting it right
2. It is about time!! More than 2 years after it was made into law
3. There was obviously something wrong in it. Who would doubt there's more.
Read it for yourself, so next time, you'll know what you're talking about.
Write boring code, not shiny code!
Believe it or not, there are some of us who are here by choice, and not birth. And we treasure the amazing liberties that we have here, and not in our countries of birth. What a Vietnamese refugee knows about the hunger to live free of worry from his government and free of worry from the enemies of his government could speak volumes about the U.S., but you're to busy making bad analogies to listen.
According to Viet Dinh toward the end of the article: USA PATRIOT and similar legislation will be necessary as long as we are "fighting terrorism." If you think he is correct, then you probably believe that the Iraq war had everything to do with Terrorism, and you are probably the caliber of person to whom I would like to sell this bridge I own in New York.
These people MUST realize that the "War on Terrorism" is a necessarily perpetual one. Is Viet therefore proposing that we give up our civil liberties indefinitely? Whether he knows it or not, that's what he seems to be proposing.
As long as Americans are willing to believe that politics is over their heads and that they shouldn't worry about what goes on in Washington, the way is wide open for some dynastic madman to install himself in the White House without even being elected, and start waging unprovoked wars in countries most Americans can't recognize on continents most Americans can't name.
As THE most powerful nation on Earth that claims to be, (of/by/for) the people, its citizens have a great responsibility to keep their civil servants accountable. If you ask me, most are allowing themselves to be distracted from that responsibility.
Frankly, this appears to be the entire Democratic Platform for 2004. I have heard nothing but "Hate Bush" from Democratic Party since 2000.
pot.kettle.black.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Perhaps you can post a list of documented 'secret arrests' that you know about, that are being covered up in the mainstream media. Because there'd be all kinds of headlines if it was becoming a common practice.
Oh, it has to be arrests based in the US. Cuban cites won't surprise anybody, except, ummm, maybe you and yours.
---
Visit the best Liberal Blog: DU
Is to secure liberty.
Yes, this does reduce safty in some areas, but that is the price you pay to avoid the real risk involved in allowing desaparacidos.
On the whole it's a pretty good bargain.
If we do not remove liberties than the people who died on 9/11 (I'm a New Yorker, so that list includes acquaintences and directly affected family members) did so as patriots protecting liberty.
If we use 9/11 as an excuse to remove liberties then they died so that we might all be less free and subvert the constitution.
If I've gotta die I'd rather do so for liberty, not a police state.
KFG
And you obviously missed the whole point of the outrage against the Patriot's act, and the sick irony of a Vietnam refugee having authored it. I don't know anything about your situation. Maybe you do understand the US culture and love of freedom, but to me, the Partriot act is as ironic as the old joke "we had to destroy the village in order to save it". Go home and read "A bright and Shining Lie" then lecture me about Vietnamese and their understanding of American liberty.
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
Forgeting for the moment that you don't even have the balls to hide behind a pseudonym, and also forgeting that folks like you complain on the one hand that folks don't give enough specifics when the whole corporate methodology consists of hiding behind a smokescreen of secrecy and proprietary IP, and on the other hand come up with silly little reposts like this that simply consist of hurling an epithet (look it up if you own a dictionary), what really galls me is that your definition of "troll" seems to be anyone who dares to think about anything but computer code and video games. People died for the freedoms you once took for granted, and not just guys in silly Revolutionary War garb, but millions of men who fought the forces of--no, not naziism and fascism, but--stupidity and ignorance and just plain tunnel vision during two world wars. But then you don't have to worry about the draft any more, so it's "Rah Rah Rah! for the home team and bring me another beer, Mabel" while the folks who joined up to elevate their status in society get shot and mangled and crippled and shipped home in a box as the folks we just "liberated" begin to understand that George's promises of free elections are no more true than his mythical weapons of mass destruction. How dare you....
"Is this Winkhorst a nova criminal?" "No just a technical sergeant wanted for interrogation."
He falls into the same trap as Senator McCarthy, by destroying the very thing he seeks to protect in his zeal. I remember stories of the neighbourhood "stazi" agents in the former East Germany, and thought what a horrible sort of place to live. Of course I would fight to the death to avoid having to live in such a society. Then you read about initiatives such as TIA and the PATRIOT act initiatives, and wonder if we really won the cold war after all....
This danger exists on both the right and left of the political spectrum. Censorship and repression in the name of "political correctness" is the other side of the coin.
In one way at least, Al Queda has won the war on terror - they hate the idea of a free, tolerant, pluralistic society, and they have managed to make ours considerably less so.
My rights don't need management.
How about all those UN resolutions and the 11 years when nothing was done?
Nothing was done about what? The complete lack of threat from Iraq to any other nation?
If international law alone is so important (IE enough so to go to war because someone is ignoring some memos from the UN), why is the Emperor and his corporate advisory board so adamant that US citizens must be immune to the ICC?
The real reason wasn't just to get saddam, it has changed the middle east
You're right - in a few years, the Middle East (except for Israel of course) will be entirely under hardline Islamic law.
"...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
And, I think it's super-important to state baldly:
Suspected terrorists are ENTITLED to these civil liberties. I don't care where we found them (Afghan sheep fields or Boston, MA), they are human and are entitled to human rights.
I think too many people think that Constitutional liberties apply only to American citizens. The Constitution enumerates restrictions on the US Government, enjoining it from infringing on liberties that were "endowed by our Creator".
I think Mr. Dinh totally fails to understand this.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
How the parent poster can refer to he Patriot Act as a relatively minor problem is beyond me. But history has shown that you (and Goering) are correct. In a nutshell, what you're talking about is incrementalism.
... I know what can happen.
Few societies willingly accept totalitarianism in one gulp, which means that citizens must be weaned onto it in small steps. Make no mistake: the Patriot Act (and many others like it) is a first step. In spite of the many rationalizations used to justify its continued existence, laws such as that really have no place in civilized society, much less the United States of America. Just don't get too complacent: I'm sure many Germans prior to the rise of the Third Reich felt that it "couldn't happen here" but they were wrong. Hey, I've seen Sliders
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Actually, the threat is mostly from your fellow citizens, who just don't care enough. Many have forgotten that democracy and freedom have risks, and the only way to protect them is to recognize, and ignore, that risk. If I stand a .00005% chance instead of a .00001% chance of getting blown up on a plane- but I and my fellow citizens remain free(ie, i didn't have to take my shoes off, didn't have to hand over "papers") so be it. If you aren't, you are a -coward-, and you can damn well pack your bags and move somewhere else, because America was founded by a bunch of guys who got -really- tired of exactly this kind of crap. What gives -you- the right to take -my- freedom, for -your- illusion of security? Franklin said it best: "They that give up essential liberty to obtain temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Nevermind that the risk is infinitesimal; in one year, +10x more people died on our highways than did in all the planes+buildings involved in the terrorist attacks. Every three days more people die of heart disease than died in the terrorist attacks(700,000 people a year, roughly). Nope, I can't have universal healthcare, but I can have Johhny Ashcroft breathing down my neck.
Planes aren't being hijacked because we stop the dreaded nail clipper from coming on board.
Exactly. Further- if you want proof of just how ineffective these measures are, look at countries where "security" is tightest. Israel, for example, is indisputable proof that no matter what you do, you just can't stop someone determined enough; when they stopped Palestinian men, women started strapping bombs to themselves. Then there's England; no end of security procedures did little to stop the IRA. Those video cameras in London, which practically outnumber people, have yielded no drop in crime; same goes for their thousands of radar-speed cameras; in fact, speeding's gone -up-...
Please help metamoderate.
There was never any proof that more than one attack was ever planned. In fact, one attack was more than sufficient to do the worse thing possible: the begin of the American public to accept having their entire right structures being ripped from them.
Yes, just remember one simple fact: Hitler was elected. And his whole plan for government was clearly stated, both in his book "Mein Kampf" and in the Nazi Party program. Read William Shirer's "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" for further details.
As for the threat of Al-Queida... Well, one simply wonders why Osama Bin-Laden was 'allowed' to escape anyway. US Occupation of Afghanistan should have swallowed the middle-east until we captured him. Instead, we went to Iraq for an easier - more exposed target.
Have you considered the SIZE of the Middle East, let alone Afghanistan? That's a damn big area to "swallow". To say Bin-Laden was "allowed" to escape implies that he was ever captured to begin with.
"I think right now at this time and this place the greatest threat to American liberty comes from al-Qaida and their sympathizers rather than from the men and women of law enforcement and national security who seek to defend America and her people against that threat."
It seems to me that the only person(s) capable of restricting, denying, or otherwise effecting MY liberty are those individuals in authority to whom I am supposed to defer. That would be law enforcement, national security and those who rule them. Al-Quaida and its sympathizers have no control over me, none. I can't recall ever having to obey their rules, or having them tell me what to do. Attitudes like this piss me off to no end. I am not an infant, I can bloody well take care of myself, and I would thank my fellow Americans if they would stop acting like babies, expecting to be coddled by the powers that be and their tools.
Always remember that a jail also protects those within from those on the outside.
een volk dat voor tirannen zwicht
zal meer dan lijf en goed verliezen
dan dooft het licht....
H.M. van Randwijk
When the people give in to tirans
they will loose more than body and spirit
then the light will extinguish...
my translation to english.
Marxism and Socialism are left or liberal.
Totalitarianism and Fascism are extreme right.
BTW, there has NEVER been a Marxist country.
Nothing to see here; Move along.
If you're going to karma whore by plagiarizing someone, it only works if you don't post anonymously.
"Armed CITIZENS are NOT terrorists."
How quickly we forget the Oklahoma City bombing...
It doesn't matter who you are or if you've got guns or nukes or what. It matters what you do with them.
But for how long?
The problem isn't necessarily that we can't trust law enforcement officials; its just that's not how our system works. Our system is based on transparency and accountability, because in the long term it works better.
The last time the US was in a situation like this was after WW2. Things looked, if anything, bleaker with the communists advancing throughout the world. We let agencies run wild on the "desperate times/desperate measures" theory. They ended up doing a lot of stuff that was just pointless, like experimenting with LSD on unwitting citizens, or having our legislature take part in a witch hunt that was in the end turned out to be run by a pathetic liar.
The institutions that did these things didn't start being disgraceful and stupid; indeed they were not entirely or even mainly so. But they ended up doing a lot of things they wouldn't have otherwise just because they had a license to operate without outside scrutiny and criticism.
Panic is not a good mode to run a war in. The Patriot act is just congressional platform for political posturing that doesn't do anything real for security. It's all a big sideshow. The 9/11 hijackers could have been stopped with the laws we had then, had we only taken the threat of air piracy seriously. We could have stopped them then if we had the will. Years later now we still don't have the will. Sure the air travel system is a bit more secure, but it's only a matter of time before somebody who is not a prankster sneaks a weapon on board or walks/forces his way through an unsecured perimeter.
What we really need to do is hard, expensive work. We need to do a lot more scrutinizing of critical facilities and hire armies of people to secure them and more armies of people to check up on the those guys. Sure, we're doing a little of that, but it is not even within two orders of magnitude of say the Iraq effort, which is absurd when you consider their relative security value (note I didn't say Iraq had zero value; it might have had some but on balance probably has negative value). What we've got, however, is the Patriot Act which does nothing for our security but gives our elected representatives the all important political "cover". Look! They're passing laws! They're having debates! They're talking about security! It's harsh! Like brusing your teeth with Clorox!
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
::deep breath::
/. and bitch and moan all we like but if we aren't doing anything about it, it's like... uh... pissing in the wind.
/. could be if everyone got out and just voted?
Okay kids, here's the thing. We can all sit on
Can you even fathom what a political power the members of
Don't like what you see? Don't talk, do.
Wan't a coup? Fine. Let's have one in November.
S
bah.
Asking a Vietnam refugee... About civil liberties is like asking Jack Valenti about fair use.
Wrong. Asking a Vietnam refugee about civil liberties is more like asking DVD Jon about fair use. Jack Valenti knows nothing about fair use because he never lost the right; a Vietnamese refugee has losh his civil liberties.
My parents fled from Castro's regime in Cuba (which came to power in when they were teenagers). Consequently, they have a deeper appreciation for liberty than any natural born American I have ever met. Why? Because they had liberty and it was taken. They don't want to get it taken again. I imagine that Vietnamese refugees are similarly inclined.
"A people that values its privileges above it's principles soon loses both" - Dwight D. Eisenhower
As you mention, the average delay in notification has been about a week. Now what's the longest delay in notification? Better yet, have there been any cases where that delay continued past the point of an arrest or dismissial of charges?
As you mention, documents "theoretically" include library records. Has there been an actual case where library records were presented as the sole qualifying grounds for more court orders, particularly an arrest warrent? How about being just one of several items of evidence? (and were any of the other items worth more as evidence?)
I don't know the answers to any of these questions offhand. You may, or you may feel the arguements you've already presented are enough for you to trust the current law. I do know who should have been asked these questions and a lot more.
Who is John Cabal?
Ironic that two decades ago the right wing flag wavers made a career of berating the Soviet Union for these same acts.
I was all for the PA until they used to for something other then terrorism, that is when they raided a strip club in Vegas and shut it down, using the PA for an excuse, how can anyone say that it is a law that has been absused?
Umm, you failed civics didn't you? :) If you look at your amendments:
:).
Article XVI.
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
And that my friends, is why the 16th amendment is the most hated. The standing army thing is probably justified under the elastic clause. You can look that one up
You've obviously never read "The Turn of the Screw," by Henry James, which points up the fact that sentences are not limited to a few words, but can be perfectly grammatical and quite effective literarily and still take up, in the case of the aforementioned James novel, as much as a full page and more, though this kind of extended sentence structure does require a certain intellectual prowess on the part of the reader not normally required of those, like yourself, who feed on a steady diet of comic books and technical manuals, but then, I would expect nothing less from this bastion of Linux and Java and Microsoft bashing, an attitude with which I heartily agree but do not allow to get in the way of my other interests including the reading of books with sentences of more than a few words, an enumeration of which I will leave to the reader's imagination. Touche!
"Is this Winkhorst a nova criminal?" "No just a technical sergeant wanted for interrogation."
"The majority is always wrong," by which I suppose he meant that principles are not a matter of majority consent.
Neither are they a matter of minority imposition.
They are a matter of personal reflection and commitment to what is right.
This is unsound for two reasons. First, it begs the definition of what is right. You've ruled out the majority; the minority is no better -- what do you have left? Second, it's no different than the ancient formula "everyone does that which is right in their own eyes". That way lies anarchy.
Got a map handy? Maybe a globe? A copy of a RISK game board would do.
Look at our Northern border. Damn. Stretches thousands of miles, doesn't it? Did you know that since there are no natural obstacles, like say, a horrific uncrossable chasm, any schmuck with a pair of hiking boots can just walk right in?
Now look South. Yep, that big long blue line is the Rio Grande, one of our natural borders to the South. Guess what? You can wade across the bloody thing. The biggest natural obstacle to entering the US is the Southwestern desert of Arizona and New Mexico.
Why do I think that a bunch of Arab terrorists might be familiar with living in desert conditions?
By the way, the War on Drugs has been trying, with fairly serious military hardware, to "seal the border" for years, which of course is why no one could possibly buy anything illicit in a heartland city like St. Louis.
The US is not Japan, a nation with fairly stiff natural borders. Hell, we're not even Armenia.
Say it with me. We could have an army of sleepless "Squiddies" from "The Matrix" patrolling the North, and an army of Terminators and HKs patrolling the South (Yeah, I know, Reese thinks the HKs are easy to dust) ...
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
Just cause you came from a repressive government doesn't make you an authority on the US values of liberty. You certainly may love liberty here in the US, but don't tell me that you're qualified to speak authoritatively on the subject.
Our concept of liberty is a somewhat subtle and contradictary thing. It involves tolerance of low-level civil disobediance, basic distrust of all forms of government and law enforcement, and most of all, the understanding that the only true guarantee to liberty is in the Bill of Rights and it's fair interpretation by the courts.
Congress doesn't give us freedom, Viet Dinh's law doesn't give us freedom. The FBI surely doesn't give us freedom. The only thing that gives Americans freedom is the Bill of Rights. Until you understand that, don't lecture me on freedom and American values.
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
"the greatest threat to American liberty comes from al-Qaida and their sympathizers" - What the heck? When did al-Qaida get the right to toss me in prison without a trial and never tell anybody where I am or why? I mean sure, perhaps they'd like to kill me... but deny me liberty? I think not.
It is no longer uncommon to be uncommon.
There was a recent case where a local proscutor argued that taking a shooting class was proof of premeditation for murder. I wonder if he has the same views about traffic school :-)
If you want to see balanced criticism of the Patriot Act based on what it actually says, read this series in Slate.
About the Patriot Act,
From a Clifford May columnThe Holocaust is not unique nor extrodinary. The same thing would not be impossible, or even that unlikely if a charismatic, young, power-obsessed fanatic tried to take over a public building to protest the degredation of "traditional values" here, even today. Look at the blind following Roy Moore got for dumping some cheap corporate art in a lobby somewhere, and he's ugly, a mediocre speaker at best, and the police never even shot any of his followers or put him in jail.
Look, just fuse together Roy Moore, Che Guevera, Kevin Mitnick, L. Ron Hubbard, the guys from Queer Eye, Martin Sheen, and Fred Phelps, send them back to the Great Depression, and have them run for president on the platform of "Kill the Lawyers, Take Their Money". What do you think's going to happen?
That's the strength of fascism, it's not political, it's social and artistic. It's a near-foolproof method of gaining power in a free society, and it just so happens that it appeals to, and works best for, vapid power-fetishists who often happen to be prone to bouts of genocidal mania once they get to the top. The most stunning thing about the Holocaust is that they managed to pull it off before the whole mangled system collapsed in on itself.
They never said they hate the idea of a free, tolerant, pluralistic society - they hate the result brought to them because of it....
... things he considers sins against Allah). If you read the whole letter you'll notice a lot of it has to do with Palestine....
Did ANYONE EVER read the letter from Bin Laden to the "United States".
Here's an article from the Observer containing the full translated text.
Here's some key pieces of the text for those who are too lazy to click on the link:
Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:
(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.
a) You attacked us in Palestine:
(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.
And here's a part regarding liberty and freedom...
(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:
(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.
Again, it's out of context, you need to read the letter to understand the point he's making.
I don't necessarily agree with what he's saying, but let's get the facts straight. It's not that they hate a free society, but they hate the fact that this free society allowed the oppression they've supposedly felt.
I have a feeling that if history occured differently, there would be a bit more acceptance for the things he argues against later in the letter (such as gambling, drug use,
The majority is always wrong because the majority is stupid. 99% of the population is stupid, not because they are all un-educated, but mostly because they have been "educated". They are never taught to think for themselves.
You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
what about liberty without liberty? (that phrase itself sounds like some food product; fruit juice without a single drop of fruit juice.
Um. No. Lots, possibly hundreds, of people were arrested/detained, many for more than a month, and the Justice Department refused to release their names. The exact number of people so detained isn't known, because the Justic Department refuses to report that too.
One of the U.S. citizens being held indefinitely without trial is named Jose Padilla. He was arrested in Chicago at the airport, not on a foreign battlefield! The other one is named Yaser Hamdi, and he might have been trying to kill American soldiers, but we don't really know, since he wasn't captured by U.S. forces. He was handed over to them by an Afghan warlord working with the U.S. No U.S. soldiers saw him captured and they had to take the Afghan's word for what he was doing.
I could find links to wiretap changes, but I'm feeling lazy. In any case you seem to have had a few misunderstandings of your own--ones that can easily be corrected with 5 minutes of Googling.
-- Where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket?
It was sold as a way to combat terrorism, that is why it was given such a "Patriotic" name.
Or maybe it was called the USA PATRIOT Act so that anyone who speaks out against it can be called un-patriotic.
is that while the interviewer was attempting to illustrate the fear people may feel about the patriot act, it hardly at all actually specifically cites the offending sections. Except for section 215, the interviewer doesn't specifically say the parts of the patriot act that are damning.
By not mentioning the specifics of the act, and instead talking about how people are afraid of the act, this report manages to, surprise surprise, actually stir up more fear (hence all the posts on slashdot.)
What I would like to see is a specific breakdown. here's what patriot act ACTUALLY SAYS and here's what the constitution says, and show me differences. then I can make an opinion. Here's why X is bad, here's why Y is bad.
Also, shame on you if you posted against the patriot act in this thread and have not actually read it yourself. you shouldn't trust the trolls around you to summarize it with their slant.
I for one thought Viet's response to the one accusation, section 215, was actually reasonable. The powers he mentioned exist and have existed on state level and make sense nationally.
and finally, to those who say that our greatest threat comes from our own government: Physical violence against citizens in the most blatant way, murder, is preventable. Each one of those twenty hijackers made a conscious effort. America did not deserve it. not one person who died deserved it. And it could have been prevented had a decent enough intelligence effort been put forth. If the government did NOT put forth efforts to protect us, it would be abdicating its duty.
Reason, free market capitalism, and individualism
This may be a somewhat appropriate forum to make sure that people know about these two bills that might get passed:
R .163:8 9:
HR 163 http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:H.
S 89 http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:S.
Pretty much, if you are persuiing higher education, that no longer matters, and you can still get drafted. Also, if I read it correctly, it states that everyone HAS to mandatorily serve under military service.
I cannot stand the nazi Bush regime, and their total disregard for our status as human beings.
SuPz.orG
The real problem with the "War on Terror" is... there is no end. When all the Muslims are dead, something else will be classified as terrorism. Unions, "file-sharers", hackers, cable television thieves...
The government of the United States should be concerned with INCREASING my liberty and privacy; not the opposite. If they want to pass a law regarding oversight of law enforcement activities... why don't they pass one INCREASING oversight?
Only one thing will save us and the world from our out-of-contol political system and wannabe emperors... eventually, we will be so far in debt that tyranny will bankrupt itself.
Bush is the most transparently corrupt and immoral president in modern United States history. He does not value our democratic traditions. The only thing more putrefied than Bush and his administration; is the heart of every citizen in the United States who voted for him. We get what we deserve.
You Are Being Flamed Because
[ ] You posted a Religious Thread
[ ] You posted a accusation with no proof
[ ] You posted a thread containing 1337 talk
[ ] You posted a me > u thread
[ ] you posted a worthless offensive thread
[ ] You continued a long, stupid thread
[ ] You committed crimes against pork biproducts
[ ] You posted a "YOU ALL SUCK" message
[ ] You haven't read the FAQ
[ ] You don't know which forum to post in
[ ] You just plain suck
[X] You posted false information
[X] You posted something totally uninteresting
[ ] You doubleposted
[ ] YOU POSTED A MESSAGE ALL WRITTEN IN CAPS
[ ] You posted racist crap
[X] I don't like your tone of voice
[ ] You are not civilized enough to post in these forums
[ ] Yuo mispeled evry sengle wurd.
[ ] Your parents are related
[ ] You and your wife are related
[ ] You dated my sister
[ ] You dated my brother
[ ] You made love to my dog
In Punishment, You Must:
[ ] Give up your AOL Internet account
[ ] STFU & GTFO
[X] Jump into a bathtub while holding your monitor
[ ] Actually post something relevant
[ ] Read the f****** FAQ
[X] Call Bush and inform him he sucks
[ ] Go to your room with no supper
[ ] Apologize to everybody on this forum
[ ] Go stand in the middle of a Highway
[ ] Recite the Greek alphabet backwards
[X] Take a bath in bleach
[ ] Drink out of a spitoon
[ ] Eat my ass
[ ] Grind a rail on your sack
[ ] All of the above
In Closing, I'd Like to Say:
[ ] 1 R 1337
[ ] Pwned
[ ] GG no re
[ ] Blow me
[X] Get a life
[ ] Me > u
[X] Never post again
[ ] I pity your dog
[ ] Go to hell
[ ] Your IQ must be 7
[ ] Take your s*** somewhere else
[ ] STFU & GTFO
[ ] Learn to post or f*** off
[X] Go jump into some industrial equipment
[ ] STFU botter
[ ] All of the above
So.... by having the name "the arbiter" all of a sudden your opinions are more valid.
AC comments are some of the most informative, insightful posts here these days, mainly because they don't care about karma or any of that other bullshit, they just post whats on their minds. Some of its inflammatory, some of its wrong, some of its noise, but some of its correct, just like the AC parent of your post.
So get off your high horse and start contributing to the discussion, instead of wasting time and accounts by posting drivel about people being AC or not.
For my views, I agree with the AC. Respond to his arguments, and I'll address your counter-arguments.
And yes yes, I saw the smiley. Doesn't make it any more valid.
Think nothing is impossible? Try slamming a revolving door.
just remember one simple fact: Hitler was elected.
That is categorically untrue. Read Steve Kangas' discussion of this common misconception at http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitlerdemo.htm
Free Mac Mini. Yes, I'm
I think right now at this time and this place the greatest threat to American liberty comes from al-Qaida and their sympathizers
Actually according to a pentagon report the greatest threat is from a changing environment and it's consequences on global societies.
The terrorist threat is arguable greater today then it was 3 years ago. Fighting "terrorist" militarily is like squeezing a pimple it only makes it worse and takes longer to heal. Terrorism is best countered by emphasizing ideas (such as liberty , equality, education) and centering a foriegn policy more on these ideals then self-interest.
I read somewhere that as population increases in density, individual rights suffer to maintain order. I think the PA, along with other various trends in loss of personal freedoms and individual liberties and increasing world turmoil may be at least partly a function of the increases in world population densities. Up till relatively recently in history, there has always been unexplored/unsettled lands for citizens who had "had enough" of their gov/empire/whatever to go to, and be free of _any_ power but their own. In the past, citizens could just vote with their feet. Not these days. I just hope that the civilization here can last long enough without imploding until space travel becomes viable as a way to escape
overbearing/overwhelming gov control. Seems to be a very slim hope, at the moment.
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
I did. In the end, one fact stands out: Hitler was elected. He didn't have the support of the majority of the people, but he was elected, nevertheless. He was elected according to the law of his country, just like GWB in 2000. The law was flawed, there were several circumstances, etc, but, according to the letter of the law, Hitler was democratically elected chancellor of Germany in 1934.
On October 26th - a date which will live in infamy - the President signed the USA/PATRIOT act, officially known as HR 3162. And you should well note that, according to Representative Ron Paul (R) of Texas - as reported on November 9th by Kelly O'Meara of the Washington Times' Insight Magazine - the bill had not even been printed and members of the House could not read it before they were compelled to vote on it. O'Meara wrote, "Meanwhile, efforts to obtain copies of the new bill were stonewalled even by the committee that wrote it." Most of its provisions have nothing to do with fighting terrorism. Under this so-called anti-terrorist measure:
According to the US State Department, around 20-30 Americans are killed by foreign terrorists each year. Typically, ZERO of these attacks are on American soil. In many cases, the attackers were no doubt unaware that their victims were Americans. For example, when Chechens took over a Moscow theater, there happened to be a few Americans in the audience.
The 2001 attack was the big exception: 3000 Americans were killed that year on US soil.
However, to put this in context, about 40,000 Americans are killed every year in auto accidents.
So this is what we're sacrificing liberty for: a phenomenon that is typically less than 0.1% of the threat from auto accidents, and didn't evern break 10% in the worst year ever.
I didn't know it was a war crime or illegal to "try to kill American soldiers" when you happen to be at war with the US, especially when being attacked by the US illegaly.
There are two rules for success:
1. Never tell everything you know.
I'd say the Bill of Rights would count as "essential liberties", wouldn't you?
quote still works for me.
Here's a better idea: If you present your grievances in a civilized manner, we will address them. If you engage in terrorism, we will not only make sure you don't get what you want, but also take away what you already have along those lines (e.g. the Taliban regime).
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
Personally, I think the Patriot Act will either be rescinded, or thoroughly gutted within 12 months.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
Don't fret, Bush will just have the unconstituional parts amended to the constituion.
All your base are belong to us!