Slashdot Mirror
Infinium Labs Threatens HardOCP Again
XBox4Evr writes "In a follow up from two weeks ago, Infinium Labs is again threatening the tech website HardOCP with legal action. This in itself, is no big deal, but to actually read the letter from Infinium Labs lawyers will make you wonder if an educated person actually penned the documents. This seems to another huge blow to IL's credibility in the console market in general, now that ex-Xbox manager Kevin Bachus is on board with Infinium Labs."
Are lawyers nerds? I'm seeing more and more "Here's a link to some legal documents, enjoy!" on the front page of slashdot. I can't read these things without falling asleep on the first paragraph. Is there some sort of hobbyist lawyer nerd demographic that i am completely unaware of reading this site? Legalese thrill seekers? Not only that, but this is the gamers section of slashdot... Dude, i'm so into GTA, QUAKE and LEGAL DOCUMENTS, woah! Anyone?
SCO just keeps getting crazier and cr...wait, this isn't SCO?!?
Mix the failings of Usenet with the shortcomings of the World Wide Web and the result is slashdot.
Now that Google has removed SCO as the #1 hit for the phrase, might I suggest Infinium Labs for the title of litigious bastards?
They want to invent the "Phantom Lawsuit" as well. I for one think SCO has already invented this, and will soon claim copyright to it. So Infinium Labs will lose their $25 million in capital paying off licesing fees. Darn, I was really looking forward to that amazing Phantom too........
Why would they use a pen when they can use crayons?
using namespace slashdot;
troll::post();
I love this bit:
These lawyers must get paid by the word. For their next threatening letter I'd recommend something that will get them a few more bucks. How about:
I really should have gone to Lahw Skool, the past 20ish years of geeking seem wasted by comparison..
Trolling is a art,
Just speaking from experience with corporate lawyers, what often happens is that a corporate leader (i.e. CEO, etc.) is upset by some event (i.e. the article), and they demand that Legal take some action. The lawyer, not wanting to be disbarred for malpractice, points out that they have no legal claim, but to avoid beign fired they then fire off a letter that simply states what the higher-ups say, with a small note about a law suit. I'd bet solid money no law suit ever solidifies.
The writers at Hard are pretty fucking funny though: they've done an excellent job of reforming their statements to accord with the demands, even while making them more acidic.
"Stumble before you crawl"
These guys are trying pretty hard and haven't got one yet.
Nerd: Derogatory term typically directed at anybody with a lower Slashdot ID than you.
...trying to compete with SCO for most idiotic use of litigation is a poor hobby to have for 2 reasons:
1. SCOs litigation is pretty much about as inane and frivolous as it gets
2. see #1
I think we may have to add stage four to the cycle.
1. Microsoft
2. SCO
3. RIAA
4. ???^H^H^HInfinium!!
====
Crudely Drawn Games
I think Infinium Labs should chagne its name to Infinum labs. A word for greatest lower bound describes the company's output better than a word drrrived from infinite.
I would LOVE to see what Gabe and Tyco would do. Probably ream them a new A$$.
The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination
- Douglas Adams
me talking to a girl...
http://ablegray.com
Is it really surprising that they are nothing more than a "sue the world" company?
They are, after all, claiming development expenses to put a PC motherboard in a case with a custom boot loader - big forking deal.
Please, Phantom Idiots, you might be able to fool some oil baron out of his money, but you can't pass a PC as a custom gaming console around here. Peddle your snake oil somewhere else.
Besides which, Phantom Idiots are just opening Pandora's Box. As more and more of their bullshit becomes apparent, they are only inviting an FTC and SEC investigation.
BTW - Nice try going after HardOCP instead of Wired Magazine - which gave the Phantom far worse press than the website.
Screw off, and take your 50lb midtower "console" with you.
I want to get in on the fun and sue someone SCO, Infinium Labs, Microsoft everyone seems to be sueing someone but me, I feel left out.
I think HardOCP made it pretty clear last time that they stand by their reporting. If Infinium wants to keep making threats they're going to keep getting ignored.
I know there's nothing but wannabe pretend-experts on slashdot, but I'm going to ask this anyway, on the offchance maybe there happen to be some wannabe pretend-experts who mostly post on Groklaw who wandered in by accident. I've been wondering for awhile:
From a legal standpoint, exactly how far and how often can you move toward *threatening* a lawsuit before it becomes illegal to not actually declare one?
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
It wasn't even a 'link to some legal documents'. It was an article containing HardOCP's response to a poorly formed legal threat. You might be giving these Infinium letters the most weight and validity out of anyone involved.
It was intended to be an entertaining read, and not out of line with anything else that ends up on this site.
People talking about Penny Arcade are leaving out the funniest bit. The best part of the Penny Arcade comic is the response from Roberts (or whatever the Infinium guys' name is). He claimed in a forum post that the penny-arcade comic was a response that they put all console designers through as a part of an initiation process and that they were hungry for bandwidth. Kind of funny when talking about a site that gets millions of hits a month. Read the post and the site's response at their site.
While it is true that HardOCP didn't seem to begin the article with the best of intentions, they didn't (as far as I can see) engage in any slander. What they did do was point out some very interesting facts about Infinium as a company and interpet those facts to state that the whole mess was just vaporware. It isn't against the law to write a biased article, just to write a false article with the intention of slandering someone.
1. ???
2. ???
3. Profit
The article mentioned that some of the pictures released were actual photographs. Which one might that be? The one with the most ray-tracing passes?
Once again, I am struck by the double standard that, while our country's assurances of freedom of speech rightly protect claims made against our elected officials, whether substantiated or unsubstantiated, saying bad things about a company-- even a company that allegedly barely exists-- can result in threats of legal action. Is there a reason why some fly-by-night electronics outfit is entitled to protections not even the President enjoys?
I am Sartre of the Borg. Existence is futile.
A fourth grader wrote this with the help of Clippy. The innuendo is that the writer needs to use a little more variety, and fewer templates...
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
Under most interpretations of libel law, there are three things that Infinium would need to prove.
The first is that not only did HardOCP publish incorrect information, but they did so willingly. In other words, they had to know at the time the article was factually incorrect. If Infinium provided correct information at the time, then this might not really be in dispute. That said, many of the items in the letter appear to be judgements and opinions.
Second, Infinium would have to prove that HardOCP published incorrect information with malice. This is not easy by a long shot, since you are trying to prove motivation.
Finally, Infinium has to prove that they were damaged by the article in clear monetary terms. This is always one of the hardest things to measure in a libel action.
All that being said, I think it is clear that HardOCP has some valid points in the article but at the same time, has been given corrected information (such as location of offices, etc). If HardOCP truly takes journalism seriously, then a few corrections should be forthcoming. The fact that an expense paid invitation to view the facility was turned down suggests a strong anti-Infinium bias.
This is one of those things where both parties stop the shenanigans and own up to the truth. Each is falling far short of being forthright about the matter.
Lines like
"You allege that Mr. Roberts was employed for Worldcom for a period of time. The innuendo is that Mr. Roberts was employed for a significant period of time. You need to correct your article to state that Mr. Roberts worked out of his home for WorldCom for 90 days as a non-officer"
90 days is a freakin' period of time! 20 seconds is a period of time! the sentence is a true statement! Under what US law is publishing a true statement a crime? (well, other than copyright, patent, and trademark laws; depending on the context, but those aren't being argued here).
anyways, its-a funny readin'
"I'm a Genius!"*
*Not an actual Genius
Their site puts Mozilla into an infinite reload loop. They're probably trying to do something annoying involving a forced ad, but Mozilla is resisting.
- SCO plainly states they are going to sue a linux user today. When today comes, they do not do anything, but simply produce more elaborate threats and a new deadline of "tomorrow".
- Infinium Labs plainly states they are going to sue HardOCP soon. When today comes, they do not do anything, but simply produce more elaborate threats and a new deadline of "soon".
- NASA implies they are going to reveal an important Mars discovery today. NASA does in fact then reveal the discovery that Mars did in fact have significant and widespread liquid oceans in the distant past and that sediment analysis confirms this.
In short: Between SCO, Infinium, and Life on Mars, Life on Mars is at least for today far and away winning the credibility race.-- Super Ugly Ultraman
Shouldn't that be Infantile Labs?
I mean, the more someone gets upset at someone elses comment goes to show just how much the said comments actually bothered them.
If Infantile Labs just blew off most of the HardOCP comments as nonsense and got on with business, this issue wouldn't have surfaced and no-one would have batted an eyelid.
Now that they've blown the issue up (all by themselves), everybody sees them as being a big cry-baby just like SCO is - and HardOCP's comments as credible.
Can you say... shoot self in foot?
READY.
PRINT ""+-0
HardOCP has an obligation to the truth, but they don't have an obligation to fairness. They present their opinion, clearly labeled as such, and aren't obligated to provide any forum for the pro-Infinium side to respond. After all, it's their server. As long as they don't commit libel, they can do what they want on their soapbox. That's the whole point of the First Amendment - neither the speech of HardOCP nor Infinium can be infringed.
That's it. I'm no longer part of Team Sanity.
...infimum.
THE NERD IS THE COMPUTER.
I've always considered slander to be more destructive towards people than libel. I suspect that in 30 years no one will nit-pick about them anymore, since print and speech hold no special legal protections over eachother. One can be saved as easily as the other.
However after googling a bit I did find some info, I think.
James Aker seems to be a real lawyer at least.
He seems to do Litigation, Employment law, construction, and personal injury. Not really specilized it seems.
From what I gathred reading the articles at HardOCP, IL, and Penny Arcade, this all seems like some kind of high school popularity contest. Let me explain.
Nintendo, M$, and Sony are your populars who will always be despite the mistakes they make. Everyone knows about them but in the long run no one seems to care because let's face it: their popular.
HardOCP and Penny Arcade are in the middle when it comes to the social mix. They are not producers of their hardware but have enough room to have their own opinions of such matters. They talk to everyone because they can. HardOCP is that trustworthy quiet guy from shop class and Penny Arcade is the class clown. When they say stuff people listen.
Along comes the transfer student, Infinium Labs, who is trying to make a name for himself by being cynical of those who are clearly above them. His best friend is N-Gage. Together they follow every move and try to emulate their superiors formula to better their status.
IL , despite his efforts, fail at presenting themselves in a way their peers deem acceptable. Well Nintendo, M$, and Sony laugh hilariously at them because to put it briefly, they know what their markets. HardOCP and Penny Arcade don't buy it because they represent the market. If either peer fails to buy what you are selling you are out of luck.
So IL attacks his peers as being hypocritical liars although he secretly wishes to be one of them. Four years later they all graduate. Nintendo, M$, and Sony go on to college and are succesful. HardOCP and PA too. IL fades into obscurity... and N-Gage is killed in a fatal car crash.
Years later whenever anyone remembers IL they have a good chuckle. N-Gage unfortunately was killed in a car crash soon after graduation.
.deviatefromtheabsolute.
OCP don't need to take nobody's bull.
Call up the fellas in the 95th floor and have them round up ED-209.
"Drop your lawsuits. You have 20 seconds to comply."
We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
This is FUNNY! the letter sent to HardOCP is really, really amusing... it's written as if by a primary school child.
It's basically... "You wrote that we have not shown any real machines yet... you imply that we don't really have any"
"You wrote that you haven't seen an office yet... you imply we don't have an office"
It's just paragraph after paragraph of them saying things like that... it reads so very, very badly.
Plus it falls into periods of text which CANNOT have been written by anyone with ANY sort of legal training:
"The article inaccurately claims that HardOCP 'Compiled and researched all of the publicay available information we could find.' Clearly this is not the case or you are not very good at finding publicly available information."
Dear god that's terrible... it's so much like "you, you, you're a poopy pants... and, and, my dad says that what you said is wrong... you poopy pants"
I can see why they have not taken this seriously.
Did anybody else sign up for the beta test. I submitted for the test. They emailed me, told me they were having trouble and resubmit at their website. I had to write a fucking essay AGAIN. Worst, they never sent me the email that said that they have made the decisions for who got into beta, and didn't list the news on their site, like they said they were going to. These people have been full of shit from day one.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/08/27/hln.game.phanto m/
It's interesting that no matter what you see from these guys, it somehow appears there's just no substance to it, just like their fluffy website, that says they're a leader in the 10 billion dollar gaming industry, and all their online store sells is t-shirts, mugs, teddy bears, and frisbees sporting the Infinium logo, and the link for their stock quotes just features blank spaces where the quotes should be.
Wonder who they managed to sucker VC dollars out of? If they don't see the train wreck coming, they deserve to lose their money.
You know if this whole lawsuit thing had not happened I would never have gave that article a second thought.
I read Hardocp, I'm sure I must have seen the article and forgot about it. Now thanks to this threat of legal action I will avoid Infinium products. While before all this I would have been blissfully unaware.
http://www.kubuntu.org/
Well, for those of you who want to view the profile/credentials of James E. Aker, the man who penned the letter, This appears to be it.
I don't know how many civil trial lawyers named James E. Aker there are working out of Sarasota, FL, the same city Infiumium Labs is based, but my guess is that it's the same guy.
-R
In case anyone is interested
I'll let you know if they write back. *smirk*
You don't have to be the person you've become.
Do you or do you not have a beta phantom console (Gen I or Gen II) in your possession?
Your NDA does not preclude you from stating that you have a unit, just doscussing any technical or operatinoal details in a public forum.
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
I have it under good authority that this console is not vaporware. This friend of a buddy of mine who went to school with this dude actually saw the system running Duke Nukem Forever!
The amusing part is that I pasted that statement with "aywers" directly from the article and STILL managed to misspell it... WTF?
I'm not THAT drunk.... am I?
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
While not linked to on the actual Infinium Labs website, I was able to find the stock price($7.50) and SEC Filings on Yahoo! Finance. It makes for mildly amusing reading, especially the charts that show a 15,000% gain over the last year.
"I would give my right hand to be ambidextrous."
Interestingly, he specializes in personal injury and employment law. From his bio: "Jim's experience covers a broad spectrum in litigation. He litigates personal injury actions...". Does this make him an ambulance chaser, or just a bit inexperienced to deal with IP / News Media / Libel issues?
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
They're threatening lawsuits over "innuendos." My god, Hard|OCP can't tell the truth? The guy worked for Worldcom. Hard|OCP isn't required to give alternate statements for every possible statement that can be misconstrued. EVERYONE is skeptical about this.
Heck, Penny Arcade made a joke about this lawsuit. Guess what? Timothy responded saying they asked him first and that it's a rite-of-passage. PA NEVER CONTACTED HIM. THAT WAS A LIE.
The fact is, all we've seen so far of the console is a case, some numbers and some names.
But the article was a good read. Best line:
"By the way, you later told Kevin Bachus of Infinium that you declined any follow ups because - you believed that you were being invited to visit Florida only so Mr. Roberts could physically attack you."
For those who don't want to read the full 5 pages, here are two favourite quotes that I've typed from the images:
"By the way, you later told Kevin Bachus of Infinium that you declined any follow ups because - you believed that you were being invited to Florida only so Mr. Roberts could physically attack you."
"In short your "volunteer" appears to have locked authority."
And yes, that really does read "locked authority".
While I'll admit on the surface Infinium looks like BS (and probably is) and that letter from their lawyers is laughable, I can't say I'm impressed with HardOCP's efforts with the initial article or their follow-up.
Maybe it's forthcoming, but I'd like to see them address the points one-by-one, because while many of them are silly they do refer to their article. I know this is Slashdot, but I actually read it... =)
And one big point that's not very clear - is HardOCP saying that they *weren't* invited to come visit the labs? Because if they were I'd expect them to follow up on that, or give a reason why they declined.
13. "...Your article has obviously damaged Roberts and Infinum in the millions of dollars."
I know I hate it when someone damages me in my millions of dollars.
Nope! I don't think any of your assumptions are true. All us nerdfolk are accustomed to following rules and thinking logically. We love to solve problems!
Hey, lawyers are smart, they study for years to practice law. They must follow rules and logic too! Trials are just an expression of a problem, right? When we parse legal problems, the solution seems obvious. We can't understand why the other people don't see what seems obvious to us.
Our expectations are that the law, and the legal profession, should follow rules and be logical. The problem is that legal rules are convoluted and dense: they include not just what makes sense to us, but also case law and previous judicial decisions that we've never been exposed to.
There's a fair amount of marketing and spin that goes into making legal arguments. Often, the win goes to the side with the clever argument, rather than the side with the logic. Questionable decisions get turned into hard rules and affect future decisions. (Not to mention all the greedy bastards who try to "play" the system.)
That's why we pick apart this stuff, have disdain for the system, and dislike lawyers -- they're not logical from our perspective.
...with a lot of contacts throughout the industry (the exodus from two imploded companies that had a lot more industry experience), I can say that these /. stories are the only reason I have heard anything about Infinium since their comical launch way back when. Haven't seen them at GDC, haven't seen them at E3: if they have a presence at the shows, it's a very small one.
I know no developer working on an Infinum title: unless their box emulates something else, or plays PC games or something (which cannot possibly be the case if the thing has a TV for a head), or they are porting or creating titles themselves, then they Have. No. Developers.
No one I know anywhere in the industry even has any awareness of Infinium.
http://www.cafeshops.com/ilabs.5978112 Who the fuck would buy this?
I just can't get over how appropriate the name is. Now they may have a "phantom lawsuit" one their hands, too! Following further in SCO's buisiness model, should they say that HardOCP is being supported by IBM?
How about the parol evidence rule? Are non-lawyers familiar with this *vital* aspect of all contract law?
That people don't know it is one good reason why in some jurisdictions it's becoming more often "deprecated" (to use a geek turn of phrase). UCC 2-202's formulation includes course of dealing, course of performance, and trade usage in order to explain the terms of the contract; that covers a lot of ground the old rule kept out. Lots of places allow "tacking" of non-contradictory additional terms, either in other writings or referred to in other writings.
Hell, most non-lawyers don't even know the difference between slander and libel,
Whoo...I'm shaking. It's not like they have to pay 150 grand and three years to learn. They can pick this shit up from Black's. I'll teach 'em now:
Slander = spoken defamation
Libel = written defamation
Damn, that was hard. What's "defamation," you say? That's another story...
Law, as a subject, isn't that hard. Chief Justice John Marshall only studied it for six weeks, and he was a fabulous judge. "Being a lawyer" is about a way of thinking and approaching problems, not waving your dick around screaming terms from your real property text.
Oh yeah, who am I? Future lawyer, University of Michigan, class of 2005.
Can we get some photo's of Infium Lab's "Actual" headquarters. I mean they told us where their "offices" are. They gave us an adress. Can we get someone from slashdot down there to take some photo's of this set of "offices"? *Note to Infium Labs" I am making no such innuedo that infium labs does not have a headquarters but I DO refuse to correct this post. Please do not sue me.
Does anybody else think they are shooting themselves in the foot?
;)
I mean, if they had left the article alone, it would have gotten limited coverage and would have been forgotten by most by now. Instead, with these threats, they 1) bring attention back to the article, and 2) make a larger audience aware of the article (I hadn't seen the article until 2 weeks ago - I'm not a hardocp regular sorry)
Also when they say in their letter "This is not what Laura Roberts told you. Laura Roberts told you [blah blah]" I think they really wanted to say "These are not the droids you are looking for"
Cheers,
Skilf
Penny Arcade Comic
PA Comment RE: IL Forums
Original PA Article
I was just poking around the infinium labs site and ended up over at robrady designs. Lo and behold I found this! http://www.robrady.com/infl.html It looks like actual hardware......not a computer rendering. I think there may be some crow to be eaten in the future.....at least in small quantities :-)
You state that you haven't seen me. The innuendo is that I do not exist.
Gaaah!
SIG: TAKE OFF EVERY 'CAPTAIN'!!
I was showing the letter to my father, a corporate attorney, and he remarked that it was odd that there was no letterhead on this letter. Does the firm responsible want to hide under anonymity so this doesn't hurt them?
"All it takes to fly is to hurl yourself at the ground... and miss." - Douglas Adams
I just sent the following email to the abovementioned lawyerly firm:
I have been following with some interest your attempts to thwart the investigative reporting activity of Hard OCP on behalf of your client, Tim Roberts, and his Infinium Corp. The article is available for anyone to read, as are your two threatening letters to Hard OCP. From what I can see as someone who is conversant with the English language is a series of corrections of minutiae and complaints about various "innuendos" that stem from your lack of forthrightness about a product your client continuously refers to in the present tense, e.g., "Infinium Labs IS an industry-leading global entertainment...," "...IS marketing its flagship product the Phantom Game Console," "...IS the performance leader," "...marketS a robust game console," "Phantom(TM) IS the next-generation game console that supportS PC games...," etc.
In the light of these present tense statements about your client's product that any rational individual would take as statements intended to be taken as fact and not as marketing hype of an as yet unproduced product (this is not an innuendo, by the way, it is an inference), it is obvious to me as it should be to both you and your client, that the simple way of removing any doubt about the validity of your claims is not to sow fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD), but to produce examples of this product consistently spoken of in the present tense, to a group of reviewers and game afficionados and not to send threatening letters to them as if they were the enemy. They are, in fact your friends--if and only if your client does in fact have a genuine product to sell--and can be counted on to spread the word about his product when it comes to market. To specifically go out and annoy these very people either suggests that your client has a poor understanding of the game market, which does not bode well for the prospects of his product, or he simply does not have a product. I look forward to your reply. The product certainly SOUNDS interesting, and I would certainly consider buying it if it in fact exists.
Regards,
[signature]
"Is this Winkhorst a nova criminal?" "No just a technical sergeant wanted for interrogation."
true - they show a molded plastic case with some parts in it.
what this means:
a) infinium doesn't have any sort of in house design staff to create the shell design
b) infinium has no manufacturing capabilities at all, and has to shop out even one-off small scale model shop type plastic molds
what this doesn't mean:
a) that the plstic model has any basis in reality
b) that the electonic bits inside actually _do_ anything.
Point 3 reads in part "You allege that Timothy Roberts has helmed several businesses that have failed or gone bankrupt in the last six years. [...] You need to correct the statement to reflect that Timothy Roberts was never at the head or helm of any business while it was in bankruptcy proceedings"
While point 16 reads in part "You allege that Mr. Roberts helmed several businesses that have failed or have gone bankrupt in the last six years...In fact, there has been only one that failed during the time that Mr. Roberts was there."
So which is it, no bankruptcy/failures, or one bankruptcy/failure in the last six years?
It continues "Mr. Roberts personally started three businesses prior to forming Infinium Labs. He did so between 1995 and 2000, and to be succesful in one out of three ventures does not imply a series of failures."
So which is it, one bankruptcy/failure, or two?
If you found this entertaining you might want to check out point 18 too...
I am disrespectful to dirt! Can you see that I am serious?!
Second: 'You breached the journalistic code of ethics or conduct by setting out to create a biased article and by falling to conduct the proper due dilligence which would have brought the inaccuracies to light.' Ummmm the only thing that came to my mind was FOX NEWS. Accuracy in reporting stuff? Bias news article? I thought all news was bias by default as it was a human that put a story in it. Man even major news paper have proplems keeping accurate articles. Case in point Jayson Blair, nuff said.
Last but not least: http://www.infiniumlabs.com/dlflash2.html Flash needed for the dialup version of the web site are they brain dead or just stupid?
Life is marked by pain.
printf("\nS%c%cp%3s %co%1s",105,'m',"le,",0x6e,"?");
I'm sure that better examples exist. Anyway, programmers often write confusing stuff too.
"Much of the law is deliberately written to be confusing so only lawyers can decipher it".
Likewise, a lot of code is written so that only the original programmers can debug it.
Actually, legislation and programming look very similar when you look at their consulting sub-industries.
This is not my sig.
March 3rd. That would be... um... today! Anybody have a ticket to that? ;)
I'd have a personalized plate on my car, but "toxic bachelor" won't fit into 7 letters.
I run a video game message board that is fairly active. It seems someone from Infinium Labs (traced their IP) posted the five page letter on my site. Now, I wouldn't be bothered had they identified themself...but they didn't. They called themself "monkey" and titled the thread "Ilabs sues HardOCP, looks like HardOCP is screwed ugly". What is that about? Lawsuit by Mrs. Johnson and her third grade class. http://www.lunabean.com/forums/index.php?showtopic =2428