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AppleCare - How Many Problems is Too Much?
steeviant wonders: "I live in New Zealand, and have been dealing with AppleCare Australia over issues with my PowerBook G4, which has needed three replacement power supplies, one battery, two motherboards, a top case, and a screen replaced under warranty, and it now has another hardware problem. I'm not satisfied that AppleCare Australia think it is acceptable for my PowerBook to have nine problems in two years, and want the machine replaced, but they are refusing. I have scoured the apple.com.au, and apple.com websites trying to find some way to contact anyone to try to get AppleCare to reconsider their stance on this issue. If New Zealand had an Apple branch office, I would simply take them to court, but even that is not possible as their computers are sold through a local distributor. Surely Apple don't consider this appalling number of failures to be acceptable for a computer which cost over NZD $9000. Can anyone suggest an avenue through which I can contact Apple in the U.S. for help?" Sometimes handing technical issues defect-by-defect works, however it seems to me that there are many cases where it would seem to be a waste of time...both the manufacturer's and the customer's. Should manufacturers be required to replace an entire machine after a certain number of defects in a specific time period, or might there be a better way to handle these kinds of technical issues? Update: 03/31 3AM EDT by C : steeviant wants to let everyone know that Apple has offered to replace his machine with a 'like for like' model before this article was even posted. So, "All's well that ends well." for some, how about you?
Screen: Check
Motherboard: Check check!
Battery: Check
Top shell: Check
Power supply: Check
The only thing on that machine that may still be original is the bottom shell cover! Well, maybe the modem, optical drive, ram and airport card are still original too.
The video card is on the motherboard, as is sound, CPU, and all the ports. The only thing separating this machine from a new one is this one has known issues and a new one has unknown issues.
I would wonder if perhaps the owner has bad power at his house? Maybe that is causing all the issues? It seems curious to go through batteries, power supply, and motherboard and not suspect dirty power.
GPL Deconstructed
In the US there is a "Lemon Law" for automobiles. After 3 major defects you can return your car and get a new one.
I've always been of the opinion that there should be a similar law for electronics/computer systems. Sometimes you just get a bad equipment and the best course of action is to replace the entire thing.
~.Evanrude
It seems acceptable for them to replace it after so many problems. Unless you dropped it or submersed it into salt water or something like that. If they are the cause of the problem, you're not at all scamming them by getting a new one to replace your broken one. Few people would break their own system just to get a replacement. Unless you caused the damage through misuse, you should be entitled (morally at least, haven't read the warrany) to a replacement.
I work at Dell, and typically, if a person has 3 services within a week and is still having problem, or several within the past month, or a long standing history of problems, we usually replace the system if the customer requests it. the service calls cost somewhere around 200 each to our cost center, so as soon as a machine has a service done, we've lost our profit on it and are taking a loss. apple care sounds like its insurance though, so I guess they don't care how many times it gets fixed, since it doesn't come out of apple's pocket.
posting anonymously for obvious reasons
http://www.apple.com/contact/phone_contacts.html
;)
perhaps call australia's customer relations and seeing if you can get any help... or just call america and start working your way up till you get to steve jobs
So, my 2 cents... They shouldn't be "required" to, but they ought to, if only to keep their customers happy. The notion that the customer is always right seems to have been misplaced in the recent past.
;)
I don't know if there is the concept of the "lemon law" in NZ. But here in the US, I'd pursue it under that. For those of you that think the lemon law applies only to cars, you are wrong.
One thing I've noticed about Apple is that once you've gotten one of their computers, they don't want it back. Take for example my one friend who bought a G4 Cube a couple days after they were released. Now, we all know the issues that these systems had, but obviously my friend wasn't going to be aware of them with the system being a matter of days old. So he went and (imho, foolishly), spent about $3500 on a new Apple G4 Cube. He recieved it and started having the normal problems; randomly resetting/shutting down as well as instability. This was caused by the neato heat-sensor power button where you don't need to actually touch it, but merely pass your finger in front of it. Cool idea but a flaw execution. So he naturally called apple and after spending about 6 hours on the phone with them, they finally agree to let him ship the machine in. Move forward several weeks, he gets a refurb (they adamately refused to give him a new system), and it too has the same problems. Long story short, he eventually sold it on E-bay for $2,400 after 2 refurbs and gained a finely-tuned loathing for apple and all its products from this consumer experience.
Maybe apple has gotten better? Not really. My boss and I were at an Apple Store buying 2 new dual cpu G5 systems for Maya, to both act as render stations and actual workstations. We get back to the office with said computers, unpack, etc, and the first one is running fine. The other however, just refused to stay up; we'd start the OSX updater, and it would reboot not too long after. Anything really we did, it would reboot or freeze eventually. Given that the system was 100% new, we didn't have time to fix a new computer tha we just paid $3,000 for. So we repacked it and brought it down to the Apple Store, and after arguing for quite a while that it was not indeed the software (the system wouldn't stay up long enough to have anything installed), and after blocking their polite attempts to say it was our fault, and an hour later, we had a new system that worked just fine when we plugged it in.
So in summary, I'll say that Apple systems generally work great and usually do not have these types of issues, but if something does happen, Apple will probably be the last to really care. You can see these attitudes reflected in the problems the iBook and iPod has had regarding their hardware. I rather doubt the US applecare people will be any better, but it might be worth a shot.
"What can a thoughtful man hope for mankind on Earth, given the experience of the past million years? Nothing." -Bokonon
Because thier batteries last for x hours, and (taking recharges*time on each charge) yours lasts for x +1000000 hours.
They'll run through $150 (or more) of batteries while you'll pay $50, while maintaining a smaller form factor in yours.
Ain't Apple great?
you act like ANY OTHER computer manufacturer is different. pull your head out of your ass.
- tristan
Apple care is a great thing to have for your apple machine, however... there are limits to it outside of the U.S of A. that aren't exactly equal that I have noticed. An old roommate had the same problem and eventually after three hardware failure problems, he contacted them to get it replaced and it was. A whole new system was given to him (from the apple store) and he copied his files to the new system and gave them the old one. I'm not sure if having an apple store had anything to do with it, but maybe a little prodding could produce more results? I dunno what you've done so far, so any implication you haven't done enough is a mis-communication on my part. But check a little deeper and MAYBE something can be done.
just my 0.02e (euro baby)
your original iPod was $500. it was not sold under the pretense of lasting forever. right now, you can ship it back to apple for $100 and get the battery replaced. that's one fifth of the original cost of the unit to make it functional again.
paying $8 to replace batteries on a $30 mp3 player is over a quarter of the price of the original unit. and the said battery lasts a lot shorter than lithum battery in iPod, requiring much more frequent battery replacements.
i think you are comparing apples to oranges here. diminishing battery capacity is a fact of life. until some miracle new technology comes about, apple cannot do anything about this. (of course, they could post a disclaimer that lithium battery has inherent natural lifetime... however, unless industry as a whole decide to do this, why should apple be handicapped for being honest? it's not like lithium batteries used by other companies are immune from the same problem...)
repeated component failures in a computer is just bad QA.
Standard fare whining about Apple. Here's a standard fare response: I have worked with many, many, many Apple machines (among others) in my life, both as a user on a network of them, as an administrator of a network of them, and as a home user. Apple machines are of great quality, with a few exceptions. I have several old (~6-10 years) Macs that still work perfectly, which I still use (since they're still useful). The only problems I've ever had personally with the quality of Apple machines are with the motherboard of my iBook, which is being replaced right now. It seems that the only large quality problems that anyone ever has with Apple machines are with their laptops, and that happens to be a problem with every manufacturer's laptops I've ever had experience with (and I've had a lot of experience), and Apple's service plans for their laptops only lack lemon clauses, so that truly bad machines can just be chucked. Next time you talk about experience, maybe you should have some.
dumb. w00t!
so it'll getted modded to -1. But here goes.
Call Apple Corporate. Ask to speak to a customer care specialist. Explain to them the basics of your problem. Before you call, collect all the "evidence" you can. I don't mean finger prints and dumb stuff like that. I mean, names, case numbers, repair dates. Make sure you have that in order and the first thing you are going to want to do is walk through the details of each and every repair.
Now here's the kicker. Also find a copy of the Applecare Agreement and have that with you. Find as many relavent terms and phrases in that document as you can. Example; "repaired or replaced", and "under contract", etc, etc. Also try and think back to all the dealings you've had with the customer reps you were dealing with. Yes, it's pedantic, but being civil and having common courtesy and letting them be the unruly ones can win a lot of times, especially with the customer care specialists, because they've only got one job, and that's to diffuse pissed off customers. If you make it easy on them, they'll probably give you things, like spare batteries (though that's a rarity).
Oh, and also send of a polite letter to sjobs@apple.com. He doesn't read them, but someone does, so get in line. Your patience may be rewarding. But if your all in a fit and pulling your hair out, feel free to suck on a egg.
Don't Ask Questions. I don't know the answers and even if I did I wouldn't tell you.
Actually, I've had a great experience with HP. My moving device under my scanner bed was behaving strangely, and after several minutes on the phone with customer service, they gladly asked me to send it in, and I got a replacement that worked just fine very soon afterwards. It doesn't look like a refurb, but I have no way to tell.
you act like ANY OTHER computer manufacturer is different. pull your head out of your ass.
Dell replaces after 3 major incidents.
For issues of warranty replacement/repair, Apple is third rate, as testified to by hundreds of dissatisfied customers. Those lucky enough not to experience hardware problems don't feel this way.
Apple has agreements with their parts manufactuers to warrenty parts. I learned this while talking with an apple CSR after my brand new powerbook arrived with a defective screen. Because the screen was flawed, apple wanted to capitalize on their warrenty with the screen manufacturer (Samsung). I don't know if this means they got the new screen for free, or what.
Given this kind of arrangement I don't think you have much chance in convincing them to give you a brand new machine.
My own powerbook (15" 1.25Ghz) has been in for servicing 3 times since I got it in November. In general apple's customer service has been terrible. I'm trying not to let it get to me though, but I'll think carefully before I buy my next apple product.
---
I support spreading santorum
My first dealings with apple was when I decided to switch and get a powerbook alum. It was a great machine, even though the battery life was 1.5 hours. I started having the white spot problem and the screen died. I talked with apple and sent the computer back. Since they fixed it I haven't had any problems, but like someone else said it's just like any other computer maker. All products have problems, but it's all in how the company deals with it.
It seems like apple's arm must be twisted to react to problems with it's hardware. Look at the ipod battery issue. Given that it was a small problem, but a reported one, apple sat on it until it got out of hand. The powerbook white spot problem wasn't taken care of until too many people had the problem. I've read of similar issues with the ibooks screen and motherboards.
I really like using apple products (OS X, powerbooks, ipods) but it concerns me when a company is reluctant to fix their hardware, and since apple is the only maker of the hardware we have to either raise a huge stink, or wait till they feel it's a wide spread problem.
I feel I have to buy the applecare protection because the parts on powerbooks are so costly it's not worth the risk. If I was more confident in their workmanship I wouldn't get one. So far they haven't given me reason to think otherwise.
Firstly, the lemon laws vary state by state. But, in most of them, the law doesn't talk about the number of defects. It talks about the number of times repair is attempted on a single defect without success. If they fix it in (usually) 3 times or less, it's not a lemon.
e-mail steve jobs at
sjobs@apple.com
or
jobs@apple.com
I think.
wow... another hardware problem?? is there any part of the hardware that doesn't belong to any of the previous problem categories you've listed?
and you conveniently live in a remote country with no official apple presence!
your case is so many standard deviations away from the norm that if it wasn't on a reputable news source like /., i would have thought that a story like this can only be made up!
If you have to destroy your iPod to replace the battery then I'd say you should not be trusted around anything electronic. I got a used iPod and replaced the battery in about 10 mins. The company I bought the battery from even included a couple of small plastic wedges to use to open the case without scratching it.
IANAL, YMMV etc.
You can get remedy through the Consumer's Guarantee Act, which requires that either the retailer or importer/wholesaler (if the retailer is out of business or no longer in a position to remedy the problem) must provide goods and services fit for purpose, and be of a sufficient quality to work correctly. Note that this act is usually (unless you get a good lawyer) relevant to goods and services purchased for consumer use rather than for business use.
It sounds like the device in question is not particularly reliable.
Do everything in writing, including providing them with a summary of the issues and remedies already attempted. cc the supplier (I think in this case it's Renaissance Corporation Limited).
If rarking them up this way doesn't work, for the small cost of ~NZD45 you can file a claim with the small claims court which will allow damages of up to either NZD3000 or NZD5000 (I can't remember which) to be awarded (which won't be enough to cover your losses), or you can engage lawyer and take them to court, and possibly settle for the amount you are out of pocket, plus consequential damages. In NZ you would be surprised how fast a company remedies a situation when a bailiff turns up with a court summons for a company director. You can get the names of the director(s) from the New Zealand Companies Office.
Fast, cheap & reliable. Pick two.
nothing like x86 where hardware is working but the software driving them aren't... :P
I've heard the whole sorry saga straight from the horse's mouth. He's come over more than once wanting to borrow my iBook PSU to confirm it's his PSU that's dead not his PowerBook; I've seen the ugly flaking paint that resulted in his top case being replaced, and heard the stories about the other failures. Recently I had him round to target-disk a backup image of his HD onto my G5 (which incidentally has the power supply chirp issue, and my iBook has had a logic board replacement) in the hope that his machine would be replaced soon.
Apparently Apple were suggesting that maybe he was abusing it, which is somewhat ironic considering I'd expect the HD and optical drive to be suffering in that situation, and those two *non-Apple* parts are still working fine. About the only ones that haven't been problematic, in fact.
three replacement power supplies, one battery, two motherboards, a top case, and a screen replaced under warranty, and it now has another hardware problem.
Just like people who always have their car in the garage, the first word that comes to my mind is "Sucker." Computers--and cars--just don't break down like that, and people that end up in these situations are people who must actually *believe* what an auto/computer mechanic says. "Oh, I think your environmental defibrulater canister needs replacing, you know how these things go...that'll be $400. Thanks."
Vote in November. You won't regret it.
Somehow I doubt this is anything specific to Apple. It happens to damn near every electronic device you can buy. I've never heard of someone having this many problems with any product. What type of an environment do you use it in? It seems like there's probably some external, perhaps unknown, factor at work here. Try to figure out if that could be the case, like perhaps you do have dirty power as was suggested by another reply.
Gabriel Ricard
One of the biggest selling points of the 3 year extended warranty, was that if the product was serviced more than 3 times, you got a new one.
I have had one of my powerbooks replaced and I have lobbied on behalf of my customers on a few occasions sucessfully for replacements. There is no firm threshold, but usually after 3 major repairs (logic board, HD, etc) you can argue successfully for a replacement if you are still under warranty. 1st, like previous posts, gather all prior case numbers etc.... If you took it to a shop get their SRO numbers from your repair. Apple can look up the case history on your machine, but it is more important that you demonstrate that you are aware of the history and can communicate it. 2nd call 1-800-SOS-APPL and get an operator. Ask for Customer Relations. 3rd outline your case including any Case #'s, Service Providers SRO's, current problems. FYI Apple will never consider a plastic part defect as a reason for replacement. If you worked with an apple authorized service provider ask the Service Manager if you can mention him/her. --He/She might just offer to call Apple on your behalf. It does not help to get upset or emotional with them. Be professional. If you don't get anywhere you can call back and ask for Executive Relations --usually this won't get you further, but in one occation it helped. As a concession short of replacement I have gotten a free Applecare warranty extension on a machine that had a few repairs. As a side note, I have noticed a significant decline in QA ever since Apple shifted production to China back when the Ruby/Indigo iMacs shipped. Sometimes I wish we all cared more about quality than the price.
From what I've heard about Apple repairs, it's the luck of the draw as to how you're treated. :(
Reasons like this are why I skipped out on AppleCare and went with a CompUSA warranty.
. asp
http://www.compusa.com/tech_services/serviceplans
Notice the "No Lemon Guarantee" which says that the product will be replaced if a single component fails three times. I've had several amigos with laptops that have failed who have ended up with a better generation one, such as going from a G3 PowerBook to an original G4 TiBook, at no cost over the inital price of the warranty.
My brother had run the gamut of problems on his 1st generation 12" iBook in the 2 and a half years he's had it. CD tray issues, logic board failures... he had basically every part of the machine replaced in that time. About a month ago the CD tray stopped working, he sent it in again, and it came back not entirely fixed. He pushed a little harder, and they offered to replaced his old G3 iBook with a new 800 Mhz G4 iBook with slot load drive (the model in the current line with the closest specs to his machine), and threw in the bluetooth module on there as a show of good faith. Plus, they prorated his 3 year applecare, and wrote him a check for the months left on his Applecare for the original machine that he won't use.
Again, YMMV, but my family has had nothing but good experiences dealing with Apple support.
I have an ibook G3 and had it fixed 3 times for logic boards and a cd burning problem. When the 4th problem came (another logic board), they actually said that replacing it was their recommendation. I got my new ibook shipped quickly and haven't had any problem with it. --Ryan
..and the SteveJobs iDroids come out of the woodwork for their standard "Steve is great, Apple, will you have my babies" speech.
So you're saying that you personally have had a motherboard fail - but mysteriously that hardware is somehow not at fault even though it failed. How hypocritical of you. Advance one SteveJobs iCult ranking.
You see, this is what keeps the PC world on it's toes - if a manufacturer gains a reputation for selling dud products (as Apple has), users switch brands. Apple is in the fortunate position of having a captive audience. They could burn your house down and you'd still choose a new Apple computer because you don't know any different.
The only laptop failure I've ever had was when I dropped it 3 ft onto a wooden floor (due to an improperly closed bag) - the screen backlight broke, but otherwise the machine was fine.
It sounds like an iBook would be a great substitute for a grenade in a tight spot.
No offense to the original poster, BUT THE MACHINE IS OVER 2 YEARS OLD. I've dealt with Apple, Dell, HP, over similar issues and none of them want the machine back, and they will each make you jump through hoops to get the machine taken back.
It varies from vendor to vendor but typically here's how it works. If within the first 60-90 days after you've purchased your machine, and you've had enough significant repairs, all the vendors above will take the machine back and replace it. The kicker is this rarily happens.
Say on the last Dell laptop (w/ 4yr Gold Care Support) we had this happen to. The laptop's motherboard needed replacing within the first 30days of ownership. They did this no problem. The user starts experiencing problems again, about 2wks down the road they think its the docking station screwing up the laptop. The repair the laptop and replace the docking station. Add another week to the total. The new docking station is in, the user uses it about 2 or 3 times before going on vacation. Add 3 weeks. User comes back, and within a week minor problems start happening again, within two weeks, we're back at stage one. The replace the docking station. 3-4 weeks after they replace the motherboard. Anyway come 6 months in, I request they replace the machine. It's not a year old, and obviously something is wrong. They won't replace the machine because its over 90days.
I'm lucky, I've dealt with Dell too frequently. I hang-up, call back in and request hardware exception assistance--basically this is were you send your issues directly to an engineer, if they think its a design flaw they request the machine back and replace it. Its hit or miss, but our machine got selected, and Dell takes it back.
I've had Apple do the same thing, but only if the machine is under a year old, and typically within the first 4 months (120days). The problem is its very hard to determine if a machines a lemon within the first 90 days. But to this day, I've made a mental note, if the motherboard needs to be replaced within the first 90days, request a machine replacement. Its easier to deal with their irritation at this stage, then it will be when your tired, frustrated, and way over your 90 day return policy.
Apple does take machines back, lord knows I've bought enough refurbished products from them to know this is true. Dell does as well. I found my return to HP the easiest. But I just don't deal with them frequently enough to know if thats always true or some random act of kindness.
This doesn't necessary answer your question, but your case reminded me of a horrific experience I had as a technician back in the day, when dealing with a problem like this from the other side.
Most times you can diagnose a problem, replace the correct part, and move on. If you're smart you can even do this quickly and efficiently, at least until boredom sets in and you realize you need a more challenging job, but I digress.. Anyway, every once in a blue moon, you get something like this:
Diagnose system. Determine Part A is bad. Replace part A. Retest w/burn in. Ship. Get rewarded for speedy diagnosis and repair.
System comes back. Part A appears bad again. Shake head at bad luck. Replace part A. Retest w/burn in. Ship. Get yelled at for rework.
System comes back. Part A appears bad again. Spend hours going over the entire system, discover that part B is faulty in a way that destroys part A over time. Replace part A and B. Retest. Ship. Get yelled for rework, wasting parts, and for taking too long on diagnosis, but feel good that a tricky bug has been mastered.
System comes back. Part A is bad again. Spend more hours going over everything, discover that part C is causing B to fail silently over time, which causes part A to fail over time. Get yelled at for more rework and again taking too long to diagnose problem while tying up the good oscilloscope. Tell factory to get better QA. Watch flunkie in the corner replacing parts all day without a clue get a bonus. Replace system. Test w/burn in. Look for new job.
I may now be just getting this resolved.
I worked in AppleCare US for a few years and authorized the replacement of a few systems for people when it was deemed to be in Apple's best interest. The comments I make apply to the US, other countries may be a bit different. At the time, it was OK to replace a system if it had 3 major repairs (major components replaced). People around me abused that (replacing systems w/o determining it was a h/w issue or before 3 repairs) and then we were required to go thru a supe before replacing a system. He would always push back, a pain for those of us that actually did our jobs... Anyway, after I left that department, I heard that they were no longer using the magic number of 3, I don't know what their policy is now. When a person calls AppleCare, probably the first thing through an agent's mind is how long the call will take (since one aspect of an agents metrics are their call durations). And, of course, customer attitude matters. If I had a total asshole on the phone, I was much less inclined to go the extra mile and help them. But, if a caller simply and concisely tells their story and then will answer the agents questions, I think they have a better chance at getting good service. (This may not apply to the original posters issue, I just wanted to add what I faced on a daily basis). In my years at Apple, I found that most agents were not all that good at troubleshooting and would say almost anything to get a caller off of the phone. An above poster suggested calling Customer Relations or Exec Relations, that is an excellent idea. If Exec Relations takes over your case, you will be dealing with a person that can do a lot to get your issue resolved. On the other hand, if your system is working fine now, why should Apple replace it? I think that Apple is probably just like any other company that generally takes the lowest bid and hence may suffer a certain percentage of failures. One person above talked about calling AppleCare for their education issues. Apple has agents that take education calls apart from regular consumer calls. I surmise that Apple may have given them instruction or different guidelines regarding education institutions, i.e. treat them with velvet gloves, etc. Posting anon since I don't want Apple legal on my ass
Don't forget that whenever you buy anything that goes wrong, you're primary comeback is against the store that sold it to you, not the manufacturer. Your contract is with the store, and part of a consumer contract is that the goods have to be of merchantable quality. It sounds to me as though your powerbook fails that test. So forget Apple - take the machine back to the store where you bought it and tell them that unless THEY replace the computer, you'll sue them for breach of contract.
The author of this post asserts his moral rights.
Your problem might be that your not getting exactly NEW parts to begin with. I worked out nintendo for a bit, and their refurbished/re-manufactured/repair models were always pieces and parts from other gamecubes that passed certain tests. You may be getting parts from other defective powerbooks, but the parts have passed the preliminary checks. So, it may not be costing apple all that much to replace your parts, because they just switch out working parts from defective models. Now, I have no idea whatsoever if this is how apple does their replacements, but it could explain why your having so many problems. Your replaced parts are not necessarily new.
Ban Reality TV!
I love my PowerBook to death... but you couldn't pay me enough to become a retail Apple dealer.
I have a NiMH charger. The batteries are good for 1000 charges (probably 5 years of use, if I have 2 sets and swap them). I can get a new set of batteries for under $20. Oh, and my player has no moving parts, either. Tell me again what's so great about Apple?
TO BUY A NEW CAR WOULD MAKE YOU SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE.
A few years ago I had major problems with a G4 tower I had purchased. I sent it back through aplpe care and they fixed it, supposedly. The machine kept giving me problems. After about 8 months of dealing with apple and with my apple seller, I was getting nowhere. I had a machine that wouldn't work. By chance I happened to read a very small blurb on the back of one of the apple booklets that came with my tower and it stated that if I wasn't happy with the machine I could return it for a new one or get my money back. My apple seller called apple right away and told them I wanted my money back. Apple then offered me a free upgrade to the top of the line machine. I cannot remember on what piece of paper this was written on, all I know is that it was one one of the original documents that came with my tower. There is hope my son.
My eyes, my eyes! These goggles do nothing!
Since I submitted this story Apple have agreed to replace my PowerBook because of what appears to have been a typo in the email I recieved from Renaissance, Apple's NZ distributor.
They still do not accept that nine failures in little over two years (25 months) is enough to warrant the replacement of my Powerbook. They agreed to do this before this article ever saw the light of day.
Apple were supposed to be contacting me today to inform me of what machine they would be offering as a replacement, but as yet I have not heard. Perhaps they changed their mind about offering a replacement after recieving bad publicity. I'll keep everyone posted.
Exactly what he/she/they said. It might be a little harder outside of the US, but that's exactly the way that gets the most success stateside.
Now that you've told AppleCare you have an iPod, they're going to mug you.
You know why Englishmen drink warm beer?
Because they own Lucas refrigerators...
You should check the Sony Minidisc and Diskman, they have incredible battery life. I get more than 20 hours per charge on my MD on a single (!) NiMH AA penlite. I have most of my stuff on NiMH AA or AAA, so I can use my camera battery in my MD and my remote control battery in my cordless phone.
IBM has replaced equipment for me that was out of warranty! They even paid for the shipping!
And I'm just an individual self-employed person, but I can say that if you need your hardware, buy IBM.
the gigabytes
But IBM has there stuff together, their phone-support staff has never seemed incompetant and (in my experince) their kit rarely fails.
I just went through the process of getting my iBook replaced quite recently (the new one should be getting here tomorrow, actually).
In the past year (I've had it for 15 months, but the problems didn't start until a year ago), it had been in for repairs five times, and not long ago, it started having issues again. Nearly everything in it had already been replaced once already, if not more times than that.
The previous couple times I'd called in, they'd hinted that they'd do something about it if it had any more problems. For a while it was doing fine, I suspect because I got a new logic boards after they'd resolved the problems they had been prone to. The new logic board was fine, but other stuff started to go.
In my case, I didn't even have to ask them about getting it replaced this time. I think it had enough frequent flier miles from travelling back and forth across the country from Boston back to Apple that I must've earned a new one. Although it had been fine for a few months after getting the original problems resolved (after a few tries and a few logic boards), they agreed it was ridiculous that it had had so many problems, and they voluntarily replaced it for me without me having to suggest it. I had a few problems with FedEx taking forever to ship the old one back to Apple so it could be processed and the new one sent to me, but everyone at Apple has been extremely helpful about it.
Without exceptions, everyone I've talked to on the phone has been friendly and professional, and they've generally gone out of their way to get stuff taken care of as well as they could and as quickly as they could. The past couple days, as I've been calling in to check up on the status of the whole process, I've amazingly been on hold for a grand total of under five minutes before getting a real person, and that's over three different calls combined. Except for this most recent time, I've been shocked by how quickly my computer has been returned to me. I call one afternoon, the shipping material arrives the morning, Apple receives and repairs it the next day, and the morning after that, I have a computer again.
Of course, I would prefer that nothing had gone wrong with my computer in the first place, but this is the first Apple product I've had this kind of trouble with (I was using my Quadra 950, from 1992, as a router until a month ago, when I replaced it with something that could handle 802.11b, and I have stuff older than which still works fine). If anything of mine breaks again that I have to talk to any tech support people about it, I hope it's a product of Apple's again.
I probably sound like a complete fanboy whoring myself out for Apple, the Great and All-Powerful, but I've really been that impressed with the people working there, even if I've been kind of frustrated by the whole thing (thanks, Josh, Glenn, Greg, and everyone else I've dealt with there).
(As an added bonus, the model I had (the iBook with an 800MHz G3 from a year and a half ago) was out of stock, so they're replacing it with the current model iBook G4. So, for putting up with everything that went wrong with the old one, I get a new toy. Huzzah!)
What about requiring the replacement of improperly functioning software after X defects?
The form factor is smaller, it weighs less, it's not ugly, it works with ITMS...and other things I probably forgot to mention.
Oh, and it's made by Apple, too...jk!
About 6 months after I bought my 600mhz iBook it went on the fritz and eventually the display wouldn't do a thing. Anyhow I took it into NextByte (a nationwide mac reseller that pretends to be apple it self the way it advertises itsefl) Anyhow, having bought my iBook in the US the technicians had to have every piece of equipment they replaced approved by a person overseas so it took them almost 5 months to get my computer back to me.
I find it is also harder to find parts with Apple drivers for Macs in Australia. They just don't quite have the infrustructure to support alternative hardware.
Also, NextByte runs itself like a bastard corporation and encourages ruthless cutthroat sales techniques among its sales staff. It's realy a second class hardware reatailer going a long way on the coat tails of Apple. And I think NextByte is the largest apple resale franchiser in Australia.
I'm in Australia, and I've had extensive experience with the service centres around Sydney, because of a G4 tibook that essentially was a lemon. It had its screen replaced twice, motherboard replaced 5+ times, two batteries, and the final straw was the hard drive going. I think the motherboard was being fried somehow and frying other things in the process, but successive replacements didn't fix the problem. Anyway, after about the 5th time dragging it to the service centre in 8 months (never EVER go with Next Byte, Australians, they are the suckiest suck suck suck sucks that ever sucked for service - they never call you back and have absolutely no idea when it comes to isolating the problem; I ended up taking it to Computers Now at Nth Sydney and they were very good about calling me and getting things done quickly) I rang up Apple and talked to a really friendly chick in "Customer Care" who essentially told me that this was bizarre and that she'd get it replaced for me the next time it died. So when it died again a month or so after that, I rang again and am currently waiting for a new laptop to arrive from Singapore. So it can be done! You just have to persist with the services for a while and then discuss the issue with apple - 5+ motherboards and two AU$2.5k screens seems to be the point where they take you seriously - but don't expect the service centre to initiate things, you have to go out and call Apple directly yourselves :-)
:-)
Despite this, I'd like to give a good rap to Apple Australia for their ipod service - I very obviously dropped mine once (to the point where it had gravel sticking in the plexiglass) which broke it seriously, and sent it off to be fixed (knowing that I would probably have to foot the costs) - they couriered it away for me at their expense, then couriered me a brand new one with a really apologetic letter saying that they couldn't fix it and were sorry I'd lost all my music. So thumbs up to them for that!
I was able to force the issue by going public with my Apple experience
I eventually received a full replacement, apology and a new, speed-bumped unit that's been extremely-stable since.
See the various stages of repair below....
http://www.djedwhite.com/photo/photo.php?dir=Defec tive_Powerbook
d _Powerbook
P owerbook
http://www.djedwhite.com/photo/photo.php?dir=Fixe
http://www.djedwhite.com/photo/photo.php?dir=Old_
Edmund White
http://flickr.com/ewwhite
I had this happen with the first PB G4. I was fed up after 3 replacements, customer service couldn't help. So I wrote a letter, posted it a couple places on the web, and mailed it to Apple's main address in Cupertino, CA, addressed Customer Service. A month or more later, when my powerbook was in the shop for the fourth time, I got a phone call from Apple offering to replace the unit.
Write a letter. This was some years ago, so their policies may have changed. Good luck!
I must say that I had quite the time with a G3 iBook. When I first got it, it was great... until the whole thing fizzled and died. The logic board was subsequently replaced. After this, the power supply went... the bottom case plastic was replaced... the hard drive was replaced... and then finally: I was visiting my girlfriend at school, and was starting up the iBook, and wham! The logic board had fried again! The tell-tale jittery lines on the display accompanied a freeze during boot. I called 1 800 APL CARE on the spot, and asked to speak with someone slightly above standard customer service. I calmly explained that the machine was no longer viable, as it had been in for so many repairs, it made getting any real continuous work done very difficult. She looked at my record, and agreed that there were enough strikes against the machine to warrant replacement. My customer care woman was very kind, and actually seemed to care to some degree. She agreed to not only take the iBook back, but upgrade (for the price of the difference between my iBook when I bought it and the new system) to a 12" Powerbook G4. That is the machine I am typing this on right now. I have had ZERO hardware issues with this machine so far, and I've had it roughly since the week Panther came out. They even dropped the Panther upgrade CDs in the box, since Powerbooks still came with Jaguar pre-installed at the time. Overall, they managed to keep my headaches to a minimum, after we established the fact that the original iBook I had was a flat-out lemon.
My advice to anyone with a lemonesque Apple machine: talk to a "customer care representative" (that's not the first person you get on the phone) and assert your rights as a consumer politely and intelligently.
I went through three in less than a couple of months. The dealer said it was my fault and wanted to sell me new ones.
I did notice they got very hot and arced when pluged into and removed from the mains (220V here).
I had my maintenance tech take them apart and he said all three were shorted out where the cable entered the shell of the charger. He said Apple should have built a strain relief to protect the cable from the sharp edge of the plastic case and he fixed two by just shortening the cable and making a strain relief out of RTV silicone. The third was fried bad. I remember when it died, I could smell that smell we all hate and when I picked up the charger off the cold tile floor it almost burnt my hand! Not a good sign.
I bought three replacements from www. mcetech.com Although they do not look as cool as Apple's they all still work, don't arc and run cool.
Touch wood the machines have all been fine.
Just wondering...
Presumably the Applecare records are shared globally for apple portables - since they have the International Warranty - if the warranty law is better in California (for example) - could better service be obtained by flying oneself and one's powerbook to the US?
If I show up with my powerbook in the US, will I get better treatment at a Genius Bar than I've seen down under?
... and tell them you're the original poster of this /. article.
Beat them over the head with the clue-stick.
I for one have been contimplating buying a nice shiny new PAIR of Apple laptops, one for me and one for my wife, but after reading about all the problems people have reported with both the laptops themselves and AppleCare online, and considering that some very small nice laptops in the x86 world go for about $1000 less...
I can buy a lot of repairs and/or vendor extended-warranty insurance for $2000.
Anyway back to your problem -- Tell them you'll post their next negative response as a follow-up to your article if they don't replace the system.
And don't hang up without a manager's NAME and a refusal IN WRITING from them stating that they will not replace that lemon machine.
Scan it and post it on a website that can handle a slashdotting...
+++OK ATH
I bought my iBook from a UK retailer (authorised dealer), who automatically gave me a two year warranty free of charge. So, I didn't buy AppleCare (I'd probably be replacing the thing after two years), when the product breaks it still goes to Apple, and I deal with the retailer (not AppleCare). This has meant I've been given 200 for a single dead pixel (I argued the retailer hadn't told me I might get one), and had another battery (which is currently on the way out, so hopefully it'll die before my warrenty expires)...
I had similar problems with a Rev. A TiBook and so I sent an email to my Uni's local apple rep and he hooked me up with someone in the quality assurance dept, they got me a replacement AluBook (much nicer). Despite having so many problems, AppleCare was, in general, very fast, polite, and helpful.
Patrik
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Just your ordinary BOFH
http://killertux.org
"The March issue of Consumer Reports, included a survey of 4,100 consumers, who gave Dell 62 points out of a possible 100 for its support on desktop PCs. Although it still managed to top competing brands Hewlett-Packard and Compaq, which scored 54 and 51, respectively, Dell's rating represented a decline from the magazine's last desktop support survey, published in June 2003, in which it received a 64.
Apple Computer led the pack, with 74 in the recent survey, while Gateway scored 61. A score of 80 would mean that respondents were very satisfied, while 60 is described as fairly well satisfied. Differences of more than four points in the survey were meaningful, the report said."
But why accept hard data from a well-respected product review organization that doesn't accept advertising when you can spew mindless anecdotal drivel pulled from a dark, hard-to-reach place that makes you feel so much more important than others? Getting more life?
paying $8 to replace batteries on a $30 mp3 player is over a quarter of the price of the original unit
Since the grandparent just pulled numbers out of his ass, I'll give you hard figures from my own MP3 player:
Unit price: $75 (minus $25 mail-in-rebate)
Expected battery life: 25 hours
Time it takes to recharge battery: Overnight
How long I've had it without replacing the battery: 3 years, playing it nearly every day, sticking it on the charger when I get home. The batteries for it also put in three years of duty in my CD player before that.
Memory problems with the battery: Virtually none, it's NiMh.
How much the battery will cost when I replace it in the unforseen future: $12
Full-replacement warranty on this particular brand of NiMh AA-cell compatible battery: 5 years
Advertised nominal lifespan of said battery: 10 years
Apple could have VERY EASILY made their battery CHEAPER, and LIGHTER STILL than it already is, and made it last much longer without replacement - meaning they could still glue it up inside so the user can't replace it themselves.
These two batteries, at $6 each, have lasted me six years of fairly active use. My CD player stopped playing before the batteries crapped out, and my MP3 player will probably fail before the batteries, and I'll try to find a new one that takes two AA's.
But why accept hard data from a well-respected product review organization that doesn't accept advertising when you can spew mindless anecdotal drivel pulled from a dark, hard-to-reach place that makes you feel so much more important than others?
Ok, you win.
I've had similar problems with AppleCare Ireland. Apparently I lost some special AppleCare number document, so even though Apple had the serial number of my PowerBook on file, it took months of repeated phone calls, letters, emails and faxes, until they finally recovered my data from their database. How difficult can a database search be?
I think HP has good customer support. Just an other day ago I called in technical support, (this was regarding to their PSC 1210 printer BTW) After going through problems and doing some funny things to it. The guy said it's best to replace it, since I'm still under warrenty I'll be getting a brand new one within this week.I don't think it was just a random act of kindness either. As for Applecare, After hearing all this I'm scaried what could happen to my new G4 (got it about 2months ago now) I can't afford the 3year warranty but now it sounds like I have to die for it if I want to have it running for quite awhile. Out of curiosity, how does the whole applecare process work?
The laptop I recently purchased had a slight imperfection in the LCD screen so tiny that most people would ignore it.. but I picked up on it since I do a lot of still image and video work where a proper display is critical.
Still, they replaced it, no questions asked, even though they were unsure how they'd execute the RMA to Apple. They wanted, for simplicity, to classify the machine "DOA", but weren't sure if they could... despite all that, they didn't pass that problem on to me.
I cannot say I've had the same luck with other brands or stores.
I purchased a copy of Schindler's List on DVD the day it came out, and there were scratches and dust all over the surface of the disk when I opened it. So, I go back, and they scrutinize for a bit, offer to exchange it... I find another one... same problem.
When I went back the second time, their customer service people started giving me a hard time presumably because the process of satisfying my needs with an acceptable product required more effort than they wanted to put in...
One employee even disputed the effect the dust and scratches would have on playback. As a creator of professional DVD content and as a Dolby Laboratories trademark licensee, I'm required to observe certain minimum standards... so, needless to say, I was not impressed or amused by this guy's line of reasoning.
The difficulty of going the extra mile is never a basis for denying a customer exchange on a defective product, period.
It took a fair amount of escalation just to get a senior shift manager who knew I would not leave the store until they gave me a copy that worked, or refunded my money... knowing that they prefer not to refund on DVDs. They went through three or four copies until they found a good one, but it was like pulling teeth just to get them to ensure customer satisfaction.
The Independent: Reverend Spooner Arrested in Friar Tuck Incident - ISIHAC, Historical Headlines
Don't get me started on NextByte. They know nothing, they are as much use as a magnetic ashtray for wooden bicycles for fish.
Keep in mind that this is based on user surveys, so the "Reality Distortion Field" effect will tend to boost Apple's scores.
Also, there's quite a few Apple users that have never bought a computer from anyone else.
(I personally don't think there's anything wrong with Apple's support -- it's their unwillingness to take returns that the caveat emptor. Most PC vendors will take it back for any reason within the first 30 days.)
Does the fact that YOU had problems with several manufacturers not tell you something about you?
no, Dell does NOT replace after three major incidents, I am a Dell tech. We replace when we decide we need to replace, there is NO policy regarding system replacements other than they are to be avoided at all costs. The reality is that in these cases a replacement will not solve the problem because a replacement can not make the USER stop breaking the system. I have spoken to people who have had their system gutted, literally every internal component replaced, only the case was original, these people continue to have problems and believe they should get a replacement. Please explain to me in what universe, which dimensional plane can a case cause a machine to not work? it is the users fault, yes I mean FAULT, not accident not bad luck but FAULT. Malicious foul fault.
And who are you to judge a technicians competency? If you knew what you were talking about you wouldnt need to call tech support, would you?
So I believe you would agree with me when I say neither Apple, or Dell care about your lemon?
No I dont agree with you because a computer can not be a "lemon" by any standing definition because a computer is neither citrus nor a car.
Thats right, I couldn't agree more with you. I personally believe that no warranty for any product should cover more than 3 repairs over the life of the system, after repair #3 your cut off, your warranty is null and void. That is how it should be.
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$$$profit$$$
I've been a "senior computer analyst"(basically helpdesk) at UTC for 2 years. You end up calling tech support at different companies quite a bit for warranty repairs, parts, and stuff.
For years now, I've always heard of problems with Apple Care. I heard recently that they reformed, and got a little better. Who knows now, but hey, I definitely think that a machine should be replaced after so much work has been done to it. I mean there's no real easy way to gauge when , though. Maybe every...3 or 4 times it has a major part replaced. It's not so easy to say. But steeviant definitely deserved his machine replaced. My powerbook has never actually given me problems, not yet atleast.
-_-
Like the ones before me, yeah, gigabytes, plus, the user interface is very simple, the iPod is sexy, and it packs amazing sound.
-_-
A friend of mine had a similiar problem with his 15" Powerbook G4 (released Q4 of 2003). After battery replacements, casing replacements, a motherboard replacement, and finally, the monitor hinge breaking, he called AppleCare and negotiated a brand new 17" Powerbook G4 (straight swap). The only charge was for $300 as he opted for a 1GB dimm instead of 2x512MB, but other than that, no extra charge. Apple was very accommodating in this instance, going so far as to ship the 17" out before he shipped back the old 15" so that he could move his data over. So in this instance, a happy ending was made, but to say if this is the norm for Apple? Who knows.
=^..^=