THG On Migrating To Linux

inphinity writes "The fine folks over at Tom's Hardware have posted an interesting guide titled Migrating from Windows to Linux. In the first of what will hopefully be several parts, they describe what steps to take to back up critical data and move to open-source apps. All in all, a fairly in-depth and comprehensive step-by-step guide. As a nice touch, they've even included a downloadable checklist for confused people."

Comments

interesting..

[mandalayx]

We recommend Red Hat Fedora, Mandrake Linux or SUSE for the first time switchers.

I was recommended Debian. (First linux install). Why is Red Hat/Mandrake better?

Hope I'm not opening up a can of worms here...

Re:interesting..

[DeathPenguin]

Because their installers are more newbie friendly.

Re:interesting..

[Anonymous Coward]

Debian installer isn't exactly tard^H^H^H^Huser friendly

Yes I know you only install once (or should), but MDK at least (not tried RH since v6) is alot more friendly to the novice user

Re:interesting..

[TheDigitalRaven]

Debian's good for people who already have some clue about Linux, or indeed experience with *nix-alike OSen. Mandrake and SUSE (I have no experience with RH/Fedora) are both better suited for the first time user migrating from Windows. Less command-prompt stuff to begin with, a default installer which detects their hardware and doesn't ask questions that even a Windows "power-user" considers arcane, and a reasonable set of defaults for someone wanting to learn Linux with the minimum of culture-shock.

Re:interesting..

[Anonymous Coward]

hmmm.

no.

#rm -fr /*

there ya go. much better.

Re:interesting..

[dallaylaen]

It's rather good to install some old slackware (1998 with a book is nice), toy around a week, wreck it, reformat & install $distro{$deity}.

This way you'll know how system works and how to

# man >> /dev/hands

Oh, I see I'm too geeky too... Sorry, /. influence. I've tried Mandrake 9 and it's about fine but there're some annoying things to make me Ctrl-Alt-F1 and tellinit $GeekRunlevel myself.

No matter, I'm home-linuxed. Cheers, OSS guys!

Re:interesting..

[drdreff]

You were reccomended Debian by a Masochist :)

The best way to install Debian that I have found is Knoppix. I understand wanting to bake a distro until it's done but Debian Stable (woody) feels antique compared to recent MDK releases.

Re:interesting..

[b12arr0]

If you're wanting a good debian based distro, there is Xandros. The installer asks you about 4 questions to do a full install.

Re:interesting..

[smoking2000]

My first experience with Linux was with Debian aswell (when Woody was still Testing).

Because of the lack of GUI tools for every configuration I needed to make, I had to do it myself.
Through this course I learned a whole lot more about the internal workings of Debian and Linux distros in general.

So in my opinion, if you're not scared to try and learn something new, Debian is not that bad a choice.

Another nice side-effect was that I never felt more in controle over my PC then ever before.
Like Mentor said: "[...] Wait a second, this is cool. It does what I want it to. If it makes a mistake, it's because I screwed it up. Not because it doesn't like me... [...]"

Re:interesting..

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called Debian Sid, Woody is supposed to be arcane.

Re:interesting..

[Anonymous Coward]

I would recommend mandrake and redhat/fedora too, since they have newbie-ized-installers

Re:interesting..

[Anonymous Coward]

Because of the lack of GUI tools for every configuration I needed to make, I had to do it myself.
Through this course I learned a whole lot more about the internal workings of Debian and Linux distros in general.


But that is the whole point. Most folks don't want or need to learn about the internal workings of their OS. They want to send email to the grandkids, print the pictures from their digital camera, browse the web, write letters etc.

Telling these folks that if they want to use Linux they have to become power users is equivalent to telling them to stay on Windows 98.

Even I am of two minds. I've been using Linux since 93. I love to play with it. I've done the whole build-a-system-without-a-distro thing, so I'm fairly comfortable with the OS.

When I sit down in front of it to do my day job however, I want it to just work. So, for my day job I use a specially tricked out (by the company I work for) RedHat 9 distro. Sure, I could have built it better myself, and even now I could spend some time and make it better. But ... I've got work to do.

I think Linux as a hobby is great. The point made by the article is that Linux as a tool is important, and it different from Linux as a hobby.

Re:interesting..

[Richy_T]

If it makes a mistake, it's because I screwed it up. Not because it doesn't like me

Hey, that's a great slogan for open source software

"Windows doesn't like you!"

It's good because everytime windows craps up again, it will be a reinforcement of the implanted idea.

Rich

Re:interesting..

[Welsh Dwarf]

If it's learning your interested in, and you have A) a reasonably powerful machine and B) Broadband, I recommend Gentoo, you have to do everything by keyboard, but the docs are just outstanding in clarity and logic.

Re:interesting..

[Chauncy]

If you must use RedHat it's really spelled F-E-D-O-R-A

(Remembering to avoid all products labeled 'Enterprise')

One might argue that building your own is most profitable.

Re:interesting..

[robertsloan2]

As a relatively new Linux user coming from "intermediate" Windows usage, I have to agree with the Red Hat and Mandrake advocates. I may install Debian on another computer later on, but despite its advantages -- the main one I know about is that it updates itself automatically and grabs all the prerequisites for any software you install -- it seems to involve knowing all the commands with their special spelling before you can look up the command for what you want to do.

I usually operate from the Gnome graphical interface and have trouble memorizing commands I don't use every day. So far I've been able to troubleshoot a couple of problems with help from friends, and the last time I solved it on my own by exploring menus and submenus.

Linux Missionaries are right about one thing though: it runs better than Windows. It crashes less, and while it may just be a difference in attitude, I feel more empowered to experiment with Linux. Changes I made in Linux were more reversible than in any version of Windows that I ever used, and that helped a lot when I was trying to get this laptop networked with a Windows system in collaboration with the Windows guy who didn't know Linux and his friend the Linux guru who didn't know anything about my hardware.

The other great advantage is that despite antivirus software, my Windows buddy has been hit once with a virus and maybe twice, but my laptop is safe. That would have made more trouble worthwhile, but at this point my Red Hat 9 system is stable and I'm happy with it.

Since some more advanced Linux geeks all said that Dell was the friendliest hardware to Linux, the next level for me is to get a Dell when I upgrade and dual-boot it, trying Debian but keeping the graphical interface.

Question about Debian and its automatic upgrades: since I am likely to go on using laptops, would Debian eventually evolve to the point hardware won't support it if I just keep running a stable system, or would it respond more by installing only the refinements to the version compatible with that generation of hardware?

My Debian-using friend uses a p133 with relatively little RAM and manages to work from home on it, but it can't run at decent speed in graphical interface. What exactly happens when old hardware and current generation Linux come together?

Robert and Ari >^..^

Re:interesting..

[robochan]

I don't disagree with you. However, it's been my experience (YMMV) that a Debian install forces the user to actually (gasp!) know about their computer. It doesn't hold your hand and auto-config your hardware like the "newbie-friendly" distros do.
Unfortunately a Debian install also has the other unfortunate side effect of creating generally clueful users who are in the habit of solving their own problems instead of running off to some newsgroup/web board before they even bother to google for what the ls command does.
And yes, the Redhat/Mandrake distros will create many clueful users as well, I'm just speaking out of my own experiences in helping new users for the last couple of years.

Re:interesting..

[Flashbck]

I have to agree completely. I've been using Linux on and off for about 6 years now. I started off by purchasing a copy of Red Hat v5.2. At the time Red Hat was perfect for me. I had no idea what "dude just read the man page" meant or even how to untar an archive. I've only started using Gentoo for about 3 months now and I feel as if my knowledge of Linux has grown exponentially. This is mainly attributed to the fact that I've never had to compile a kernel before and I've never had a distro that didn't install a ftp client by default.
That seemed a little scary at first, but I was over-joyed when I ran top after my first boot and saw how little mem was in use (around 30Mb I think)

If you really want to get your hands dirty and figure out whats _really_ going on under the hood, I would use Gentoo because you really have to learn everything. There is no choice!

Disclaimer to all Linux beginners: If you have never used Linux before and aren't willing to spend hours of research time to get a seemingly simple thing to work, I would suggest using Red Hat Fedora or Mandrake. But if you've used those and want to take the next step, I say dive in all the way and give Gentoo a try.

Re:interesting..

[Lussarn]

I second this, I started with slackware at around version 3. That gave some hair on the ass. After that when you know what you are doning you can choose lollypop distros. But why would you?

-- Gentoo all the way

Re:interesting..

[Flashbck]

It's rather good to install some old slackware (1998 with a book is nice), toy around a week, wreck it, reformat & install $distro{$deity}.

Ah yes, I did that exactly! it was so much fun to rm -Rfv / on slackware and watch it all just blow away.

I'm such a loser! I re-installed it and did it again! Weeeeeeeeeeee!

Re:interesting..

[robertsloan2]

Oh yeah... Actually, that just makes me think it's time to try Debian on my next computer. This one's stable already, but the other one will be a dual boot and either hold backups or become my main machine after I save up for it -- depends on whether I sell a book or just a couple of articles whether it's a Dell laptop or that neat $499 special black desktop they have, which would come with Windows XP. Some Windows people have been saying you can't actually uninstall XP without taking it to the shop, it can't be done with the restore CD on a packaged machine. But if I dual boot with Debian then I can partition it and just ignore XP except when playing Windows games (point in favor of bargain desktop). I don't know if I'd be ready to try replacing RH9 with Debian on my main machine, without a backup machine. But one of the things my friend Bob Billing, author of "Teach Yourself Linux" suggested, was that to play with Linux it's a great idea to throw together a homebuilt with hand me down junk and just crash-test your Linux till it works. I might do that if the writing money comes in too slowly. :) It wouldn't hurt to have another backup machine, and if it ran well I could always bump it down to another newbie once I got the neat Dell. Robert and Ari >^..^

Re:interesting..

[FooBarWidget]

Prepared to get flamed by the MS zealots. Mark my words, they'll all yell:

"Joe Average doesn't WANT to learn, he just wants thing to work!"

Re:interesting..

[Nurseman]

Because of the lack of GUI tools for every configuration I needed to make, I had to do it myself. Through this course I learned a whole lot more about the internal workings of Debian and Linux distros in general.

I think there are two types of people who want to use Linux. Those who want to install it, and those who want to learn it. After many years of playing arround, installing, uninstalling all with a GUI, I decided to try and "learn" Linux. To that end I am installing Gentoo as we speak (emerging KDE @ home). I have learned more this week than I have in a few years of GUI installs. I think MDK, RH, SUSE are great for the people who want to install and run, and things like Debian, Gentoo, Slackware are for people who want to learn. This is the beauty of Linux. Just my 2 cents

Re:interesting..

[Rysc]

"Question about Debian and its automatic upgrades: since I am likely to go on using laptops, would Debian eventually evolve to the point hardware won't support it if I just keep running a stable system, or would it respond more by installing only the refinements to the version compatible with that generation of hardware?"

You want to run Debian stable.

Debian doesn't worry about hardware, so it might upgrade you to some software which would run unacceptably slow on your machine. However, if you run Debian stable (and use the name 'woody' instead of 'stable') then your system will always pull from that one archive, which after about four years is generally left alone and no longer updated (except perhaps for security fixes, I don't know for how long those continue). This means you could have a perfectly stable system which keeps running just fine regardless of how Debian evolves. The down side is you don't get the newest stuff and are stuck with old versions, but if your hardware can't handle teh requirements of newer programs than perhaps you'll want it that way.

Re:interesting..

[maximilln]

-----
Debian doesn't worry about hardware
-----
So what's up with those different kernel packages for MMX, AMD, Pentium, etc. etc. etc.?

Re:interesting..

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent up. This is one of the more discerning posts I've seen on here.

Re:interesting..

[drdreff]

Funny, the Debian Release Page only refers to "woody". If you're looking to try Debian and you go for the stable release, you get the arcane one. I also realize that the testing versions are likely to be as if not more stable than other final releases, but the version that they put up for the majority of downloads is quite dated.

Re:interesting..

[robertsloan2]

Thanks! Very appreciated. I expect to get new computers every year or two or three depending on income, but keep the old machines running as backup systems. Most of the pro writers I know have a home network of three or four machines including at least one desktop and at least one laptop, sometimes multiple platforms. I figure at some point an old used Apple will join my setup, just for added redundancy. The other thing that happens with writers is just like hospitals and large companies -- there's bump down, but because most of my computers with or without Linux were hand me downs, I feel obligated to pass on old machines in good running condition with a stable installation. Backup machines don't need the latest upgrades or applications: they need to be able to run word processors that can turn out clean manuscripts on cheap printers and help newer writers get going, especially if the newbie hasn't even used computers before. Even in Windows, keeping the OS version comparable to the generation of hardware seems to make computers run better. So if I want the latest versions, the time to get them is when I get my newest computer at any time I should be so lucky as to get or build a newer computer. If I had to throw together a junker for a new writer today, I would probably install the RH7 CDs that worked so well on the p133 that I gave away. I also have a weird criteria for newest applications: they have to actually run smoother and have fewer steps to use them than their predecessors. I'm not always crazy about new features so much as streamlining. I guess reviews of new upgrades would stress which direction they were developing. Robert and Ari >^..^

Re:interesting..

[Eslyjah]

You forgot to close your IMHO tag!!!

It's not like everyone wants read the rest of the thread in your humble opinion. Geez.

Re:interesting..

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a big name but my favorite so far is Mepis (www.mepis.org), it's Debian based, a snap to install, nicely preconfigured, will run off the CD, and updates nicely with Synaptic. Too bad about the name but the product is good.

Re:interesting..

[Anonymous Coward]

So what's up with those different kernel packages for MMX, AMD, Pentium, etc. etc. etc.?

Optimizations.

Re:interesting..

[Anonymous Coward]

*nix-alike OSen

If you ever type that phrase again I will track you down and break your keyboard into very small pieces.

Thank you.

Re:interesting..

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll try to explain this to you, though you and your kind seem utterly incapable of getting it.

A computer is a tool. An operating system is just another tool to help you get the most from the computer. Tools, okay?

Now, when my parents want to go out for a drive they don't want to have to assemble the car. They don't want to have to open the hood and tinker around with the engine. They don't want doors that almost shut and windows that almost go up and down. They don't want to settle for a radio that only gets AM stations and plays 8-tracks.

They just want to sit down, turn the key, and go for a nice drive.

WHY IS IT SO FUCKING HARD FOR YOU TO GET THAT? Not everyone who uses a car should be expected to know how to rebuild the engine. Not everyone who turns on a TV should be forced to understand the concept of electron guns (much less be expected to manually tweak them in order to watch Oprah). Not everyone who sits down at a computer should be expected to know or care what a kernel is (much less how to compile one).

It's a tool. Tools should be simple and efficient. You should not have to spend MONTHS OR YEARS learning how to master a tool to carry out simple tasks ... especially when there are other tools around that don't require that kind of effort at all.

Get your head out of your ass and take a whiff of reality, you elitist prick.

Re:interesting..

[Anonymous Coward]

Robert, you will never get laid.

Re:interesting..

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll try to be kind... RedHat is the standard and Debian is still user hostile. RedHat is far more stable than Debian as well. Up2date is every bit as good as aptget. Debian really has no reason to exist anymore, just wasted effort. I ditched it years ago and I have lost 50+ Lbs in the process (more time to do other things). Some of my friends still use it - mystery to me why.

Re:interesting..

[shadewind]

I wouldn't agree that you need a broadband connection. I installed Gentoo on a dial-up connection. The downloading of the packages took quite some time, but after that, it's a lot less work than any other distribution i can think of.

Re:interesting..

[Kent Recal]

except perhaps for security fixes, I don't know for how long those continue

I think security fixes are always backported to woody if they affect packages that are in woody. Please correct me if I am mistaken...

Re:interesting..

[Kent Recal]

Newbies should install the current stable release (ISO download) and upgrade it to testing right away.
Just edit your /etc/apt/sources.list (replace the word stable with testing) and run: apt-get update ; apt-get dist-upgrade

Re:interesting..

[ckaminski]

-10 Troll.

Yet Another Microsoft Zealot Who Hasn't Touched Linux Since 1993.

Doh.

Re:interesting..

[js290]

Debian installers for the most part are crap. You can't do md or lvm with the debian installer (though, I think the sarge beta installer has lvm). The best debian distro for newbies would have to bo Knoppix. As a long time user of RedHat, I have quickly gotten even lazier with apt. So, I'm willing to put up with the crappy installer in favor of apt.

Re:interesting..

[stemcell]

Gentoo is also a good way to learn linux because it has comprehensive documentation and the online forums are generally very helpful but...

Don't believe that Gentoo is teaching you about how linux actually works. Portage and rc-update hide away a lot of the nuts and bolts that you would need to learn using a standard linux system.

If you are keen to learn everything have a try with linux from scratch - it left me begging for mercy ;-)

Re:interesting..

[Anonymous Coward]

"installers are more newbie friendly"

You must actually be speaking of Xandros, Lycoris or some desktop linux. Redhat/Fedora et al hardly have a newbie friendly install ... example: Do you want to use Disk Druid or fdisk for partitioning (ouch!)

Re:interesting..

[thisgooroo]

depends on what you want to install. the problem with diskdruid is that it puts the partitions where it wants to, and in some situations that can be bad. fdisk gives you better control (the last time i used diskdruid was almost 4 years ago, so it might have improved)

Re:interesting..

[Rysc]

But are they backported to potato? If you want longer than a ~4 year lifespan, then you'd need that.

Re:interesting..

[Anonymous Coward]

On the other hand, every time an open source operating system does something unexpected, they'll feel insulted at being accused of screwing up.

I wonder if that lends appeal to buggy OSes - the knowledge that, whatever goes wrong, you can say that it's Not Your Fault.

Re:interesting..

[Flashbck]

you make an excellent point. Gentoo definately "hides" certain aspects of the linux OS. inet.d, rc.conf, and other very important aspects of the OS are hidden completely or used differently than would be considered standard.

You do have to keep in mind that I was a Red Hat user before and everything was hidden from me. Since then I've run Slackware, Debian(for a short time), then OpenBSD(still do on my firewall), and now back to linux with Gentoo. By using Gentoo, I've been forced to learn a lot more about how the kernel and modules work as well as several other things.

Mainly I would say that the greatest benefit I have recieved from running Gentoo thus far is that it has forced me to learn these things, whereas running RedHat/Fedora, Mandrake, and the like hide these things from me as they are designed to do.

So thank you for the Linux From Scratch suggestion. When I feel that I'm comfortable enough running Gentoo, I'll be sure to give that a try.

Re:interesting..

[etc_iain]

I have been running linux for about 6 years now and I love Debian, bt use redhat at work. I needed a new machine and so decided it would be a debian box. After 2 days of trying to get the graphics to work I gave up, installed Fedora and lates KDE and the box is a beaut... ...Thats why RH, etc is better for the desktop first timers.

I

Re:interesting..

[pmw57]

You forgot to close your IMHO tag!!!
<BR>
I'll bet you say that to everyone.

Re:interesting..

[robochan]

Nah, aside from the AC bieng a prick and trolling, there are some points there worth debating. Fer Instance..

A computer is a tool. An operating system is just another tool to help you get the most from the computer. Tools, okay?
Yep, and if you don't know what to do with a hammer, you're likely to bust a finger.

Now, when my parents want to go out for a drive they don't want to have to assemble the car. They don't want to have to open the hood and tinker around with the engine.
No, but they were trained to use the car properly, and have to know how to tell the difference between a radio dial, the steering wheel, and the gas tank cover.

They don't want doors that almost shut and windows that almost go up and down.
They also have to know how to operate the windows so that they actually do go up & down, whether they're electric or manual windows, and what to do if someone breaks one of them.

They don't want to settle for a radio that only gets AM stations and plays 8-tracks.
Then they're going to have to RTFM a bit and learn how to program their stations, learn what the scan buttons do, and use the cd player on their shiny new radio thingie now aren't they? If not, they'll be doing nothing but staring at blinking lights and perhaps listening to some static.

They just want to sit down, turn the key, and go for a nice drive.
And if they do that, they'll most likely end up embedded in a treetrunk with their own or somone else's blood on their hands, unless they know some basics.

WHY IS IT SO FUCKING HARD FOR YOU TO GET THAT?
Obviously, it's not, though apparently you are bit frustrated by it all.

Not everyone who uses a car should be expected to know how to rebuild the engine.
No, but they need to know to put oil and fuel in it - or pay someone to do it for them, or it's not going to last long.

Not everyone who turns on a TV should be forced to understand the concept of electron guns (much less be expected to manually tweak them in order to watch Oprah).
I'm sure most Oprah fans couldn't even handle those concepts. Kidding aside, they do need to know how to hook up their cable/satellite dish/rabbit ears to get the signal. If not, they'll have to pay someone who does know to do it for them.

Not everyone who sits down at a computer should be expected to know or care what a kernel is (much less how to compile one).
No, but like knowing how to change a tire on your car (since you've been so fond of that analogy), it'll make for a more meanigful experience, and not leave one hanging if the chips are down.

It's a tool. Tools should be simple and efficient. You should not have to spend MONTHS OR YEARS learning how to master a tool to carry out simple tasks ... especially when there are other tools around that don't require that kind of effort at all.
Yes, and there's a big difference in using a hand saw vs using a table saw. If you mess up with one, you might get a little scrape - the other and you could lose an appendage and bleed to death. A computer isn't a pocket calculator.

Get your head out of your ass and take a whiff of reality, you elitist prick.
Physician, heal thyself.

theOpenCD

[Smallpond]

Let me be the first of many to mention TheOpenCD. First switch to OSS under Windows. Once you're used to the apps, its easier to make the leap to a full Linux desktop.

I have dual-boot RH9/Win at work now and have not booted the Windows OS in 2 months. Most of what I need is:

Gnome
Evolution
OpenOffice

Re:theOpenCD

[Anonymous Coward]

Woo, that's a great resource! Thanks so much, I'm downloading now for people at work.

Re:theOpenCD

[cK-Gunslinger]

I'll second this comment. I've slowly migrated to almost 100% OSS apps on WinXP. OO.org, Firefox, Gimp, gVIm, etc. The only thing I'd miss is Outlook Express. *ducks* I just like the way it handles newsgroups. No other email/NG reader I've ever tries even comes close.

Re:theOpenCD

[Sevn]

No other email/NG reader I've ever tries even comes close.

Try "Pan" for news. It only does news, but it looks a lot like evolution. It's pretty badass.

Re:theOpenCD

[LDoggg_]

I'll second that.

Pan is the by far the best newsreader out there on any operating system. Outlook express doesn't even come close when it comes to handling multi-part attachments.

Re:theOpenCD

[Anonymous Coward]

I have dual-boot RH9/Win at work now and have not booted the Windows OS in 2 months.

Does that mean you're using Linux or you've just left your computer on in Windows for 2 months? I only have Windows XP Pro on my work machine, and I haven't booted into Windows in over 2 months.

Re:theOpenCD

[dr bacardi]

Grated, it doesn't do email, but it likes the newsgroups a lot.. Pan works better under linux for huge newsgroups, but can handle most of the binary ones under windows just fine.

Re:theOpenCD

[robertsloan2]

Oh yeah. About the only Windows apps that I didn't find better Linux equivalents were the games that won't run on my laptop anyway. I haven't used Open Office much even though it installed as the default, because I prefer Abiword for word processing. Both of those will save a final manuscript in Word .doc format, which is good enough for me to print out manuscript submissions or burn to CD or save to floppy for publishers and editors. I write in .txt format and haven't figured out how to make emacs wrap to screen and not in the file, so I use gedit for most of my writing. It tabs and wraps to screen without altering the file, so I'm able to keep all my chapters open while working on a novel. I don't quite understand why programmers put up with the inconvenience of very long lines that don't wrap, but many of them swear by emacs. Robert and Ari >^..^

Re:theOpenCD

[cK-Gunslinger]

meh.. I don't do a *lot* of NG stuff (no binary groups). Most of what I like about OE has been duplicated by Thunderbird, but it's the little details that keep me with OE. Things like the ability to expand/collapse *parts* of a huge threaded message. So if any one sub-thread is spirling way off-topic, I can collapse that one part and keep reading the other sub-threads. And the ability to add a filter so that any message by me, or any reply to a message/thread started by me is highlighted in color (watched.) I might be able to do this in TB, but I haven't spent a lot of time trying. The filters for TB are rather quirky. I also get Hotmail support with OE. (I know, but I've had the damn address for like 5-6 years now.) And the OE layout, where I can have my contacts shown. And the relatively speed and responsiveness (maybe a MS *trick,* but it works)

Re:theOpenCD

[Anonymous Coward]

But will pan run on Windows XP (easily)? He mentioned he uses Windows XP.

Re:theOpenCD

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you tried Xnews (Windows app, not X)?

How does Pan compare to that? I haven't used Pan. I'll have to check it out.

Re:theOpenCD

[gatesh8r]

With a name like "Pimp Ass Newsreader", it's gotta be good...

Re:theOpenCD

[whitespacedout]

Thunderbird can support (ie, pick up and send) from your hotmail address without a problem if you use hotwayd.

Re:theOpenCD

[LDoggg_]

Yes, there is a windows port of pan. I've used it and it works as well as the linux version.

The whole point of this thread (great-grandparent post) was that a way to get started on linux was to start using open source software on windows that has linux ports.

I used this strategy for a school in my area that is now using LTSP
I got the started with OpenOffice.org and programs like tuxpaint. Even threw in some SDL games. When the time came to switch over, the programs that they were used to from the previous year were still there. I also put an ugly windows theme (just for this first year) to keep them familiar with the environment.

Re:theOpenCD

[LDoggg_]

Not sure, never heard of it.
If it doesn't have a linux port, then it doesn't compare :)

Re:theOpenCD

[ckaminski]

Because we don't WANT them to wrap? If we wanted lines to end at 78 characters, we'd put in carriage returns. ;-)

Re:theOpenCD

[RESPAWN]

The only thing I'd miss is Outlook Express. *ducks* I just like the way it handles newsgroups. No other email/NG reader I've ever tries even comes close.

I ran into this when I made my first foray into Linux. (I'm on my second foray now that I have the time/money to spend on extra hardware and learning how to configure a Linux install.) OE just handled newsgroup reading and email reading so seamlessly. Furthermore, and I know this is a small point, but the older versions even allowed you to scroll through messages in a thread using the side buttons on my Intellimouse Explorer. Unfortunately, later versions got rid of this ability, for some reason, pissing me off in the process.

On a side note, I want to comment on how surprised I am at how far Linux has come in the few years that I've been absent. I'm to the point where the first thing I'm going to do when I get my new laptop is repartition the drive and install Linux; probably SuSE 9 as I've had the fewest hardware issues with SuSE distros in the past. (For instance, with Mandrake 10.0 community, I am experiencing random sound card lock ups, and I'm using the ubiquitous Sound Blaster Live!, one of the most popular sound cards sold for a period. And I don't know enough yet to figure out just why it's locking up. Heck, it may even be issues with the 2.6 kernel.) And maybe I'll get back to attempting a Gentoo install on one of my older machines. Hopefully without the machine taking a crap this time.

Anyway, back to what I was saying... it's truly amazing how far Linux has come as far as configurability and software support. OO.org rocks. Evolution mimics Outlook very well. In fact, the level of software support available was one of the reasons I switched back to Windows. I can't really say that's a problem now.

I have been impressed...

Re:theOpenCD

[higuita]

try sylpheed...specially the claws version

its fast, light, full of goodies and with the actions and plugin support you can extend it alot more

Re:theOpenCD

[robertsloan2]

Ahh... then I'm just using the right application. Programmers need lines that don't wrap, fiction writers with weird individual habits may need them to wrap to create a workable environment. I like gedit anyway. It serves my purposes and if I learn some programming, maybe I will come to appreciate why unwrapped lines make sense. No one who likes them NOT to wrap has ever really explained the advantage to me.

Re:theOpenCD

[ckaminski]

Quickest answer I can come up with is this:

Sometimes, I write code with very descriptive names, like a good programmer. Sometimes, my verbiage results in lines of code (if, for structures) that are long, 78-100 characters. In most cases, I use whitespace (hello python) to clue me in where certain structures begin and end, and if a line wraps incorrectly, I might miss something while I'm quickly scanning it, because the flow of whitespace is interrupted. I have to pay closer attention to each line.

Most of the code I publish for consumption by others is formatted for 79 characters. Much of the code I write for prototyping can be 90-100 characters sometimes. As I'm trying to concentrate on function rather than form, some arbitrary line wrapping rules hinder me rather than help. As a programmer, I can take the time later and go do my own line wrapping, in ways better than any software can do it.

As an author of free-form english text, I prefer the lines to wrap. Preferably left and right justified, too! :-)

Re:theOpenCD

[robertsloan2]

Thanks! That makes sense -- I get annoyed at bad wrapping if I try to print out text files and it breaks in the middle of words. Usually run files through Abiword to print them out, though most of what I do is paperless. I used to like left and right justified text more when I had a typesetting machine doing it, or if the print is small. When it's large it can get annoying, and I guess I got used to left justified around the point I got used to Courier instead of Times. I still don't double space anything till it's going to be seen by an editor.

nice stuff

[Is_907]

my compliments to the chef... er, writers! the guys at tom's have put together a good article there. to the previous reply: Mdk, RH, and Fedora are all considerably more "user-friendly" distributions. many of my friends dove in with Slackware or Debian and are extremely well versed in Linux now but for most people i still recommend RH or Mdk (i haven't tried Fedora yet)

Re:nice stuff

[maximilln]

-----
a small central piece called the "kernel" and a larger piece that has the applications and drivers
-----
I appreciate THG for putting the foot forward to try and introduce a large user base.

LadyByte: Please tell Humphrey about drivers.

Not much meat....

[hot_Karls_bad_cavern]

A somewhat helpful article, but not too much meat and i hate clicking through so many pages during one article.

i still maintain the best way to learn is to sit and watch a linux-savy friend do a few installs, ask questions, take notes, and keep them near when you try it for the first time. Sorry, but that's the best way ;)

Re:Not much meat....

[robertsloan2]

Different people have different learning strategies. The best way for me to deal with anything like that is to have a well-indexed manual. (Thanks, CHRIS!!! Purr!) and an idea of what I have to do, then step by step go through the manual doing it for myself. I tend to remember more of it than I think I do if I've got the manual and reference it. Trying to remember other people's explanations is much harder, and watching other people do things does not teach my hands the odd spellings and abbreviations and commands. A spelling knack for regular typing works *against* me for memorizing abbreviations and code verbally, and many human beings forget to mention that a code word is spelled oddly or not capitalized or abbreviated. But that's just me -- some people can't understand or remember written material but easily remember something that's said or shown. Robert and Ari >^..^

Re:Not much meat....

[themightythor]

A somewhat helpful article, but not too much meat and i hate clicking through so many pages during one article.

It's how they pay for the site. When you think about it, if they can sell banner ads with the promise of 3-5 times more views (because each article has 3-5 pages), they're going to sell more banner space. Moreover, I think that most newspaper articles are set up this way, though not to as great an extent ("Story continued on page E5").

Confusion?

[OwlWhacker]

they've even included a downloadable checklist for confused people.

What if the confused people are too confused to understand how to download it?

Re:Confusion?

[Anonymous Coward]

They have a downloadable checklist for that too.

Re:Confusion?

[IntergalacticWalrus]

Then I don't think they should try Linux at all.

Re:Confusion?

[OwlWhacker]

In that case, surely they shouldn't use Windows either? Wouldn't those be the type of people who would click on an attachment named 'virus.exe'?

Re:Confusion?

[radicalskeptic]

Am I the only person who finds that classification amusing?

Son, folks who use Windows aren't really bad people... they're just confused.

Re:Confusion?

[maxbang]

someday i hope to be as 1337 as you. free software also includes free knowledge. as i freely distribute code, i also freely distribute my knowledge of it. if i expect free software philosophies to ever take hold with the public, i need to make sure they know how to use it, not make offhand comments to them about how "stupid" they are.

Re:Confusion?

[kiwimate]

What if the confused people are too confused to understand how to download it?

I wouldn't be too concerned. How likely is it that people at that level will be reading Tom's Hardware Guide anyway? And I don't see a newbie going to their favorite Linux neighbor and being pointed to this guide: the Linux neighbor will most likely sit and help them out with it. Right?

Which begs the question: exactly who is this aimed at? Or am I wrong in thinking that neophytes are unlikely to be reading THG?

Re:Confusion?

[robertsloan2]

LOL -- this describes me last year, perfectly. Step by step directions from live Linux experts sometimes worked, but usually demanded that I keep questioning the expert for verbal descriptions of the screen and spellings of what I have to type. At least once per call the expert (no matter who it was) would forget to mention something routine about the process that he or she took for granted, a link that had to be followed or a command spelling or a level within the command. Now that I've got the Red Hat 9 manual, I am a lot more confident. I can download in the graphical interface, but if I was messing around in a terminal I could probably look up how to do it. FTP is still not in my permanent memory, but at least I know where to look it up! Robert and Ari >^..^

Re:Confusion?

[IntergalacticWalrus]

I agree, they shouldn't use Windows either.

Re:Confusion?

[IntergalacticWalrus]

Whoa, calm down, I did not call anyone "stupid", nor did I had any intentions of insulting anyone. I only pointed out that people who have trouble with downloading stuff are most likely not ready to give Linux a shot.

Re:Confusion?

[ckaminski]

Neither the parent, nor the grandparent mention the word stupid, only "confused", which is a state even Einstein has been in...

hmmm

[mirko]

Using screenshots such as these might not help convince Windows Users to switch : I do not mean to troll but I think Nero is quite unequaled under Linux, unless I missed something (which is possible since I switched to OSX)...

Re:hmmm

[molarmass192]

Looking at the screenshots I was thinking the same thing! K3B is probably the closest thing to Nero Linux has right now.

Re:hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

nero is soooo yesterday. it's become a bloated piece of "ship it with every oem drive in existance", and add new trinket features and glitz but don't fix any of the bugs.

nero was once good, 3 years ago, when they were still hungry.

now it's rubbish.

k3b.

that's your nero under linux. burn cd data, cd audio, dvd data.

Re:hmmm

[jponster]

K3b does everything Nero did last time I used it, but then again I haven't used Nero for quite a while.

Re:hmmm

[MoonBuggy]

K3B is as good in terms of ease of use and GUI, but in my experience it makes about 5 times the number of coasters as Nero. Maybe just a default setting I forgot to change, but if I didn't see it then your average newbie won't and wasting DVD-Rs isn't cheap.

Re:hmmm

[GirTheRobot]

mkisofs && cdrecord is quite superior actually. I thought Nero was the shiznit until I started recording cd's at the command line under Linux. It is much faster and predictable. Just create a folder and copy files (or symlinks), and type a single command.

Re:hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

hmm. never damaged a single shiny thing with k3b. ok, my experience is with cd only, so maybe there are some problems with dvd writing.
back in windows-days this happened a lot with nero... maybe their copy protection, though that one was a licensed version coming with a nec cd-writer

Re:hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree! I also hate their stupid hardware locking with the OEM copies. I have 2 burners and each needs their OWN copy of nero to burn CDs with. I can't use one copy that came with the other burner to burn CDs on the other, so when I am moving burners around, that is terribly annoying when I could just boot in linux and use k3b on any burner I please without having to uninstall, reboot, reinstall, reboot before I can burn again.

Re:hmmm

[Hooded One]

Even up to K3b 0.10 I'd always have to toy around with configuration options to get it to even *try* to burn, but 0.11 seems to have gotten good at setting things up properly by default.

Re:hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called burn-proof. Check that setting, and you'll never have a coaster every again (I've never burned a coaster while using burn-proof).

PS! This means you DVD writer has to support it, something every DVD writer does (?). But they may called it something else (ex. Yamaha calls it safeburn).

Livecd?

[Killjoy_NL]

Isn't it better to try a livecd first? There are enough out there at the moment.

If you don't like it, then it's easier to switch back if you want to.

That's how I'm gonna try it anyway.

Re:Livecd?

[gnu-generation-one]

"Isn't it better to try a live-CD first?"

If you want to see what the gnome desktop looks like, and open up a few applications, then yes.

But it can be nicer to install properly as dual-boot (or on a second computer), and slowly get used to doing things in a gnu environment. If you have a bootable CD, it feels very temporary, but if you're in an installed partition, there's more incentive to configure things how you like them (they'll be saved on disk), do some proper web-browsing or typing without worrying that you might not want to use this CD tomorrow, and if you ever find something you don't know how to do, it's just as fast to get into your legacy operating system using dual-boot as it is with a CD.

Of course, you can use a USB keyring, an iPod, or a floppy disk to save your settings with bootable gnu, but it does feel more natural when you know the OS is "actually there"

Thanks for no spoilers

[Anonymous Coward]

I love it when the hero gets the penguin and I want the ending to be a surprise.

What !!!

[vinit79]

Is Tom telling us that someone out there still uses Windows !!!! And of course, I can see flying horses from my window .

Linux : Think outside the MS box

I hope linux paid for some advertising...

[Anonymous Coward]

So they get good press coverage... (like, say AMD vs Intel reviews)

Almost forgot...

[hot_Karls_bad_cavern]

And dare i say it? Yes. Learn to use it before trying to install it....the knowledge gained from just using linux will be a great aid in learning to install it.

Use a live cd or friend's computer if you have to!

Re:Almost forgot...

[MoonBuggy]

You're still thinking in terms of 'old linux'. There is no need to learn anything to install Mandrake - it does it automagically (although if you want to configure you can). Many normal Windows users who just use web+email don't want to spend time watching people use Linux and learning the system, yet they are the perfect market since they wouldn't miss any of the features on Windows that geeks like myself do miss (namely Flash MX, Photoshop and games). Let them install with no knowledge and learn to use at their own pace, don't force them to learn first thus convincing them to stick with what they know (Windows) because it's good enough and less effort.

Re:Almost forgot...

[akintayo]

I doubt that. My biggest problems installing Linux was configuring my hardware, and using Unix/Linux does not shed any light on doing that.

My advice buy an easy to install distro that includes documentation. It may be a bit rough, but you should succeed.

Re:Almost forgot...

[rsheridan6]

My experience with Mandrake was that the tools were easy to use, but if they failed, they didn't give any usable error messages so you were SOL. It wouldn't handle my printer or network my two computers so I got rid of it.

Nice ending

[Jim_Maryland]

I especially liked the final note.

Until then, say goodbye to your Windows OS, because its doom is approaching.

I do fear that some readers would see this as a biased article with a statement like that though. Hopefully readers are aware of the THG's objective viewpoint in general.

Re:Nice ending

[Arnos]

It's hard to take that comment seriously when there's a big Windows ad banner right in the center of the article pages.

Re:Nice ending

[Jim_Maryland]

I would expect to see much more MS advertisments in the future.

This CNN - Microsoft exec concedes 'worst' goof story includes:

Ballmer said Microsoft spends about 12 percent of its media budget on online advertising, and that he orders his staff to "saturate" that market first and foremost.

"I want to make sure [a user] can't get through ... an online experience without hitting a Microsoft ad," he said.

If they can't produce a superior product, advertise and saturate the market with what you have. With some of the larger IT vendors publicly adding more support for Linux based systems, MS almost has to advertise to this level.

Re:Nice ending

[Anonymous Coward]

"Until then, say goodbye to your Windows OS, because its doom is approaching."

Until then, say goodbye to your Flash advertisments, Tom, because their doom is approaching as your readers say goodbye to their Windows OS, because its doom is approaching.

Re:Nice ending

[HenchmenResources]

Just out of curiosity would you please explain how Flash is doomed, if Windows is doomed? It could just be me but I seem to be missing how the two are related.

THG on Windows - Linux migration?

[Dark Lord Seth]

... that's all fine but does it have bar graphs? Whenever I read anything at THG, my attention span flips over to "Goldfish" mode and I NEED the bar graphs! Nrrrgh! *twitch*

Re:THG on Windows - Linux migration?

[kasperd]

... that's all fine but does it have bar graphs?

I don't know. I didn't make it to the end. Halfway down the first page I realized this guy probably doesn't know what he is talking about. The page says "Most modern operating systems, which include Linux, are composed of two parts: a small central piece called the "kernel" and a larger piece that has the applications and drivers." Well, first of all, drivers are part of the kernel. So neither did he make the distinction right, nor did he tell us why it is really important. I have often seen this distinction made to explain a bit about the naming and version numbering. He didn't even make that point. And he continues to explain "Linux distributions have pretty much the same kernel, but differ in the applications they offer." Which is not entirely true either. At least a large part of the applications will be the same between two distributions. And the kernel itself will usually not be exactly the same, so in the end the kernel might be as different as everything else.

Mass Migration Feared

[amigoro]

Microsoft Corp. announced today that it feared the Tom's Hardware Guide (THG) article on switching to Linux will prompt a mass migration of Windows users to Linux. The clearly and simply written article, even thought to be understandable to US President George W. Bush promises a the users who take the plunge a life without crashes, viruses and headaches.

"This is a serious problem. We expect at least 80% of all windows users to move to Linux", said Steve Balmer, the CEO of Microsoft, at a hastily convened press conference. "This will be the beginning of the end of Windows"

When asked how Microsoft plans to respond to the situation, Mr Balmber replied: "We have our methods".

Meanwhile, Darl McBride, the C.E.O. of SCO today announced that the copyright tp the choosing a Linux distribution algorith belonged to them, and they would sue THG and any other users who followed THG advice over IP violation issues.

Moderate this comment
Negative: Offtopic Flamebait Troll Redundant
Positive: Insightful Interesting Informative Funny

This is a really great article.

[El Cubano]

I was very impressed with the way that they explain the differences between distros. I.e., same kernel/under the hood with different apps on top.

Although I am a diehard Debian user, I totally agree with the recommendation for RH, SUSE, or Mandrake. Personally, if I am helping the person migrate and doing the Linux install for them, I usually do Debian stable with GNOME or KDE backport, depending on the user's preferences. However, if they intend on doing it themselves I recommend RH, Mandrake or a Knopppix hard drive install.

I am also impressed with the way in which they specify which apps work best for certain things. I.e., Evolution for email, OOo for office productivity. There wasn't any "you need to choose from one of these 50 email clients and one of these 5 office suites."

Kudos to THG for a well thought out and well written article. Hopefully the rest of the articles in the series are as well written.

Re:This is a really great article.

[Anonymous Coward]

Debian/stable is a great distro, no matter who it's for. One of the objections hardcore linux people have against Debian is that it's out-of-date and things don't change fast enough. Well that so happens to be a good thing for many people who are only casual users. Hell, that's a good thing too if you're a heavy-duty user/programmer (in my case) who wants the OS to stay in the background and Just Work(TM), and only have to deal with security updates until the next release in a couple years...
Bottom line: Linux move TOO DAMN FAST to be a comfortable environment for many users.

Re:This is a really great article.

[blackdragon7777]

But you must choose between these 50 window managers and you need to install these 15 gui libraries.

Re:This is a really great article.

[newdamage]

I have to agree with the above statements, this is a surprisingly well written article that assumes the person has never seen Linux before. Linux users tend to forget that even burning ISO images can be a bit daunting when you're first starting out.

Also, yes, even as a slackware user, I wouldn't wish Slackware, Debian, Gentoo or the other niche distros (Vector, Arch, etc, etc) upon hapless newbies. Let them get their feet wet with Mandrake/SUSE/Fedora, and then give the more flexible stripped down distros a shot.

I also like the step by step instructions for backing up user data, it's guides like this that people like my Mom need (who needs nothing more than Thunderbird but assumes she can't live without Outlook).

Now what I'd really like to see is a distribution called BeginnerLinux or something along those lines, maybe based off of one of the big distros, that works as a LiveCD and is specifically tailored to giving the new user a comprehensive walkthrough of Linux, from apps to everything under the hood, and then shows them how to move to a full blown distro.

Oh, and as a sidenote, I showed my parents Slax 4.0.1, and let them play around with it for a bit on my laptop, and they were hooked ...not ready to switch, but they'll finally at least admit that Linux isn't some scary uber-super-user computer nerd cloud of mystery that normal surburban parents shouldn't get within 10ft of.

Re:This is a really great article.

[Trashman]

Now what I'd really like to see is a distribution called BeginnerLinux or something along those lines, maybe based off of one of the big distros, that works as a LiveCD and is specifically tailored to giving the new user a comprehensive walkthrough of Linux, from apps to everything under the hood, and then shows them how to move to a full blown distro.

It already exists. It's called knoppix and there are instructions that allow you to turn it into a full blown system.

Tom's really knows how to write a page turner

[Anonymous Coward]

By putting so little on each individual page.

Re:Tom's really knows how to write a page turner

[Alan]

Of course, the more pages the more ad impressions.

Speaking of which, anyone else find it interesting that every page had a big ass windowsxp ad on it?

What about Xandros?

[b12arr0]

I would actually recommend Xandros. Pity that there isn't a downloadable version yet. They are coming out with one though. It'll probably be without the crossover office stuff.

9 Steps Windows-to-Linux roadmap (IBM)

[Erik_]

IBM also published in yesterday's Red Book newsletter, a 9 steps program to learn how to migrate from Windows to Linux.
Windows-to-Linux Roadmap

cdr tools

[bangular]

As far as pure functionality goes, you can do anything in linux that you can with Nero. A lot of them are seperate tools, however there are a plethora of front ends that bring them all together. And if not, they script very easily.

Odd choice of advertisement.

[Psykechan]

In an article about migrating from Windows to Linux I get an ad for Windows XP Media Center.

Hmmmm...

Migration

[9812713]

I think the article is good and basic for a newbie. Most people who use linux or a windows Power user , will prolly know how to search for Music, and export their email settings.. or just use web basd e-mail. On thing they could have mentioned in the article are the ever growing Live CD Distros (knoppix) which have all the free software and basic harware detection already built in. I know the article is for a user transfer. I think that they should have mentioned knoppix and using a shared drive, for a time before 100% switching over. One thing to mention are they intending to install on a Fat32 drive, because they mention about creating a Folder, Migration folder 1. Make a folder to hold all of your files to be migrated. a. Make subfolders b. Use all lower-case names c. No spaces But thru my knowledge of newbie users, and Linux, Most will Format the drive to RiserFS, EXT2, and EXT3 and usually want to parttion the drive for "/" "Swap" "/Home" and more advantced "/Etc" "/src" etc.. // Distros like Xandros will auto partition a drive so data is saved, but they need to inform people about how dangerous a linux installer can be, by doing things without prompt. But if later, the article mentions this, all will be forgotten.. \\ -- Information, for the Digital age, Canadian, Iam.

Re:Migration

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, a file system for /etc, since when should you suggest that ????

Help for even the confused?!

[no longer myself]

...they've even included a downloadable checklist for confused people

"Damn... It's in this weird PDF file format... PDF... Um... Penguinne Data File? Argh!!! I have to have Linux running before I can install it now!"

Looking back, I was a waddling Linux basket case nightmare, and you guys spouting "RTFM" and slinging insults weren't exactly helpful either.

Best experience a noob could have. Thanks. ;-)

Today I know that Linux isn't just "good enough" or "free if your time is worthless". I didn't learn those lessons by someone daintily holding my hand and cooing nursery rhymes in my ears. I was subjected to inflamatory attacks and brutally senseless trolls.

I also learned that Linux doesn't mean you have to be a total geekwad that couldn't get laid even by a concrete mixer... Although I'm under no obligations either.

I learned everything a guy could ever hope to learn from the one true beacon of light and hope for all the world: Slashdot.

(No, seriously... no one put me up to this... What do you mean I've got something on my nose? Where?)

Definitely Mandrake

[Krik Johnson]

Mandrake 10.0 is the distribution I'd recommend to anyone! It is still community, hence a bit buggy, but the official version will be out in May and will be ready for general use.

I have tried many distros, including SuSE, Fedora, Severn, Slackware, Knoppix, Debian, Ark, Lindows, Phat, Dragon, LFS, G/CX and yes even FreeBSD which isn't even a "Linux", but out of all of those i chose Mandrake.

Why? Because it works. My mouse, keyboard, desktop, cdrw, dvd-rw, printer, scanner, digital camera, sound, tv card, alien beacon, toothbrush and nuclear reactor all work with Mandrake linux. Tell that to XP, who BSOD'd on me when I plugged in my digital camera!

Software is installed with ease, Hardware is configured with point and click! If you wanted the ultimate distro for both begginners AND experts (I have used linux for nearly three years) then get Mandrake!

Re:Definitely Mandrake

[scumbucket]

About two months ago I decided to try and install Linux on my old K6-2 450mhz machine gathering dust in the basement. A friend of mine gave me a few cd's that had something called 'Mandrake' on it.

He said "This is supposed to be the most user-friendly 'distro' out there. Give it a try."

So with trepidation about wiping out my beloved win98se install on the old machine, I jumped right in.

On firing up the install disk, the Man-drake installer asked me if I wanted to remove the win98se partition that already existed. After pondering this for several minutes I though, 'what the hell, I can always reinstall it!' So I let it fly.

After what seemed like 45 minutes of swapping cd's in-and-out of the drive, the man-drake (isn't that some sort of bird?) installer ask me what I wanted to use this linux machine for. So many choices! games, office, mail server, web server, about 2 dozen choices flooded my screen. This is madness! So after carefully considerating my options
I decided to choose them all! I would be a Linux power-user to end all linux power-users!

So after this decision was made I waited. And waited. And waited. During this I started to wonder. My Windows XP Home intallation on my other Peecee didn't ask me thse kind of questions, and it easily has the all the abilities that man-drake advertised to have. After all, I paid for WinXP Home. Sigh, I guess this it the price one pays
for being part of the linux elite.

Approximately 50 mintues later I get another prompt from the man-drake installer asking me what kind of GUI I wanted to use, KDE or GNOME. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me! I selected both and let it fly.

After only about 20 mintues this time it appeared the install was completed. The mandrake installer told me it was going to reboot and then I would revel in Linux goodness. I waited with baited breath while the reboot churned away, eagerly waiting the opportuntity to use the KDE/GNOME interface. Page after page of command line
stuff flew by my screen, seeming to get faster and faster as the time of my linux deliverance approached. Then, the screen flashed black (kinda like those scenes from the movie Wargames). I gasped and was presented with something like this:

bsh: blah/blah/blah/ ____

What the hell was this? Wasn't this man-drake linux supposed to be user friendly? Instead of the friendly confines of a WinXP like GUI instead I was given an ugly DOS like prompt, which looked supiciously like the TRS-80 system I first learned BASIC on in high school. Is this all the farther the great open-source movement has progressed?

After serveral minutes of sobbing and knashing of teeth, I came to a decision. All the linux fags out there were not going to defeat me! They were not going to cry "Bend over WinXP boy, you're going to take linux OUR WAY and like it!".

I quickly found my old musty copy of 'Unix in a Nutshell' from my college days and got to work. In a few hours I found out how to start the KDE GUI. This made life so much easier. After several days I was able to get the machine's 14.4 internal modem working with man-drake and connected to the internet, using a browser called Mozilla. Where oh where were the glorious pop-ups that appeared as I was surfing porn sites? Those bastards!

After several more days I was starting to feel somewhat comfortable. Using something called Gimp to manipulate my growing collection of adult images was becoming a habit. And because I was ashamed to let my friends and neighbors know I was using a gasp! free operating system like mandrake, I kept the pee-cee in the basement. Now
my girlfriend thinks the sounds emanating from below are me just woodworking or lifting weights. I guess linux has freed me after all!

Re:Definitely Mandrake

[meringuoid]

I started on RH7.0, moved to 7.2 then 7.3, played with Mandrake 9 for a while until I wanted to bite out the eyes of whoever came up with their Satanic automounter - then when I built a new machine I decided to put the new monster CPU to good use and install Gentoo.

Hell of a learning experience. Nice package management system. And you get used to sleeping with fans in the background.

Now, though, I no longer have broadband, and Gentoo on dialup is no longer fun and geeky, it's horrible and masochistic in a Hellraiser sort of way.

Sod it. I'm going over to SuSe 9.1, I think. That's looking _really_ sweet, especially with the recent news from Novell. It would be nice to have a DVD with a few zillion fairly recent packages on...

Re:Definitely Mandrake

[FuzzyBad-Mofo]

You can easily disable MDK's automount, and in fact many people do.

Re:Definitely Mandrake

[yudan]

But that digicam driver probably is not writen by Microsoft, if you ever need one.
A bad driver in Linux can also easily corrupt the whole system.

Re:Definitely Mandrake

[Anonymous Coward]

Oddly enough, I've had an entire system corrupted by... Windows XP.

ANY operating system can screw up sufficiently to ruin your whole day, so get over yourself.

Re:Definitely Mandrake

[Anonymous Coward]

Stability REALLY matters, though. Although the foundations of Windows are pretty shaky, the UI and basic apps are fairly stable. So when you're trying to advocate Linux to a newcomer, talking about reliability, you have to be careful.

If that user pops in a Mandrake 9.2 CD, installs (but doesn't download any updates) and plays with the default desktop, he/she will be turned-off by all the bugs and glitches (see the package updates -- LOTS of bugs).

That's alright for us geeks, because we can say "Oh, that's a Mandrake issue" or "that's KDE" or "that's Evolution" or whatever, but to a novice, it just appears that LINUX IN GENERAL is bug-ridden.

We have to be very careful, and desktop distro vendors should be putting the same emphasis on QA and reliability that Debian, Slack et al. do. Otherwise, we'll look like we're lying about Linux's reliability (I've been accused of that!) and the poorly-tested distros will damage Linux's reputation in the long-run.

So here's hoping Mandrake 10.0 Official will be rock-solid, because Microsoft is improving their reliability and we want novices to have the BEST initial impression. Not some untested, buggy needs-loads-of-updates junk...

Re:Definitely Mandrake

[robertsloan2]

ROFLMAO -- this is glorious. It sounds a lot like my story, in tone. Heh. Not in details, long story and much amusing confusion on my part. Keep in mind that I'm a fiction writer and the only language I speak and read is English. To a beginner, it's scary when his friend the high-paid professional programmer downloads an installer CD, burns two CDs worth, puts five or six hours into trying to get it to run and then it crashes, whereon he announces something went wrong with the installer, pulls it out and throws both CDs in the trash. If the wizards can't make it work, who can? I went to Red Hat's site, mindful that Red Hat 7 worked just fine on the backup machine I gave the wizard, followed their clear English instructions for download and got a friend with a CD burner to make the install CD. I don't do all that bad with step by step instructions in English as long as they're all there. I put that in my laptop, chose defaults for everything and told it more or less what I did on my laptop. I did not extend my hubris to include programming, because I figured if I ever learned how, I could always reinstall from the CD. That was probably a good choice. The KISS principle works for dummies. Real well. RH9 installed with only one problem: the sound system on my laptop didn't work. Much discussion later, after the wizard consulted Slashdot and everyone he worked with, he figured out that needed a kernel adjustment and some other arcane things done to it. He did that in his spare time over about six weeks and I still have sound, for which I'm grateful. I got to be a beta reader for Bob Billing's "Teach Yourself Linux" -- it either is available or soon will be available from a UK publisher, check it out on Amazon or watch for it. The book rocks for dummies who don't understand computing. Most of what the wizard did was something I understood at least in theory after I read the beta copy of his book. My new "intermediate" status after I got out of the "total dummy" category came when I moved and needed to repeat what the wizard did networking my laptop with his home network, which included a Linux server and a Windows PC. It took me about a week of trial and error, but I was much more active in the process this time. I don't even know which of the things I changed on drop-down menus actually made it work, but after a week of experiments I got everything lined up with autodetecting DNS and Galeon worked. The happy part is that while Mozilla was still annoying on the laptop, Galeon runs enough instances for my bad habit of leaving lots of windows open, and gedit lets me have all sorts of text files open at the same time. On a strictly esthetic note -- I like the way the wallpaper options in Linux let me do a gradient with color choices for background. If I don't use a picture, just the gradient is light and lets my machine run fast. If I do, it doesn't slow it too much. Robert and Ari >^..^

Re:Definitely Mandrake

[Deideldorfer]

I recently tried both Mandrake 10 and SuSE 9 on my desktop at home (after using RedHat as a server for a few years). I ran into a couple of problems.

With Mandrake 10 I could not get my Sound Card (SB Vibra16 ISA) to work under ALSA. I spent a whole day trying different things. I also had trouble with the OpenGL NVidia drivers. Finally, it was tough to get it to work with my SAMBA network.

I installed SuSE and it detected my sound card perfectly. SuSE's support also had the fix for my NVidia problem which I could not find anywhere else. Finally, it works much better with the SAMBA network.

In my opinion, SuSE is much better for its ease-of-use. Oh, and YAST is the best configuration tool I've used.

Re:Definitely Mandrake

[robertsloan2]

This is a great point. My wizard friend explained when I first converted, that the joy of Linux was that an application could crash without crashing the OS. I found this out the hard but happy way when Mozilla got very buggy and Galeon worked like a dream -- combination of my hardware and my habits, it was a Mozilla thing and a usage style thing. I need a very light browser because I don't use all its features, do bookmark often and also usually use multiple windows. Same thing with word processors. Open Office Writer was almost as slow to open and save as MS Word had been on the same machine. Abiword ran fast and light, could be run in several instances, and still saved processed documents as Word .docs if the editor wanted e-submissions in .doc format. Personal choices of whether someone wants feature-heavy applications or light fast applications affect what you can do in either format, but the neat thing was that all those options came on my Install CD, which was homemade from download and still resides in my laptop's carrybag. I haven't tried Mandrake yet, but one of the things Bob Billing recommended in "Teach Yourself Linux" was to dual boot and if you have a biggish hard drive, go ahead and install different versions with the selection available at boot. That's something I'm looking forward to being able to do on my next computer. Heck, I could even get good enough at it to write reviews of them eventually... Robert and Ari >^..^

Re:Definitely Mandrake

[Blakey Rat]

There are two things that can cause a BSOD in Windows XP:

1) Buggy drivers.
2) Faulty hardware.

I don't know what brand of camera you have, but if you don't have any problems with any other USB devices, I'd say the problem lies with 1).

Point here is that you can't blame your camera problems on Microsoft... it's either the camera maker's software, or something about your hardware, that caused the BSOD.

Re:Definitely Mandrake

[Kent Recal]

Point here is that you can't blame your camera problems on Microsoft...

Dude, you really need a reality check...

Re:Definitely Mandrake

[Alan]

Yes, but wouldn't it be nice if the entire OS wasn't brought down by a buggy camera driver? That's just silly.

Re:Definitely Mandrake

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the problem is that, while you and your friend think he's a bit of a wizard, he's really not. He's as new to linux as you are, and most prior knowledge doesn't help when it comes to learning something completely new.

Did you give up learning to rid your bike the first time you fell off it?

Re:Definitely Mandrake

[Anonymous Coward]

Hes talking about windows xp, not 98 or 95.

We all know that 98 and 95 were buggy, but windows xp is different.
In my three years of using xp, it has never once given me a bsod.

What about Slackware

[stecoop]

Back in the day (96'), I actually bought my first Linux distro that included 5 disk (~5 or ~10 bucks wasn't bad for dialup days) from Slackware and it included the best tutorial to date about how to install Linux. Yes it was hard because you had to follow directions and read but now, I can install any Linux distro from that knowledge. You will not fear what you understand.

If starting out and you really want to know Linux then try the slackware installation then moving onto compiling your own kernel distro. If you just want to run linux than Redhat is quite easy to install.

Re:What about Slackware

[Dalcius]

I agree, but it generally depends on who you are.

If you just want to use your computer, go for an 'easy' distro like Red Hat Fedora or Mandrake.

If you're a computer enthusiast who wants to get into Linux (not 'try', but you want to use it), installing from the ground up is a good idea. You get a solid foundation on what parts do what, who makes them and what your choices are. You're more likely to become a Linux guru sooner than if you go with an 'easy' distro which tempts you to stay in your comfy environment and not get your hands on stuff. ;)

The truth here is important though: it isn't always "easy". My first ground-up install (Gentoo Linux) took about a week or week and a half of nightly tinkering (an hour or so every night or every other night) and time on the weekends. This was mainly due to hardware issues. I had also been using Red Hat 7.3 up until that time.
Then again, I know people who have installed Gentoo in a weekend coming straight from Windows/Mac with only a few loose ends.

The BEST way, I think, to figure out if a custom build is for you is to read a guide on how to do it. Gentoo's is here. Skim it, it'll give you an easy idea of what you're looking at.

If anyone is interested in any other info I'd be more than happy to help, my scrambled email is in my profile. :)

Cheers

Re:What about Slackware

[Anonymous Coward]

Shit. It takes about a week and a half just to build KDE from Genoo. ;)

J/K

THG? The Humble Guys?

[DR SoB]

My first thought, "Whoa, The Humble Guys, are doing hardware reviews on /. now??" I remember those guys!!

www.TheHumbleGuys.com

omg wtf

[WormholeFiend]

this felt like reading a The Complete Idiot's Guide to...

Here's a quick summary:

Choose Mandrake, Fedora or Suse.
Backup everything.
Download, burn isos and install Linux
List of hardware websites for drivers
Goodbye Windows.

Re:omg wtf

[iantri]

this felt like reading a The Complete Idiot's Guide to...

Exactly the point -- it's not for you, it's for the mildly clued-in Windows users who want to switch..

Nice touch

[g0dfath3r]

Great article on switching to *nix.. I particularly liked the add for MS WinXP Media Center Edition in the middle of the first page. That has got to sting a little bit. :)

Re:Nice touch

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends on how you look at.

Those Ads provide money that is used to maintain the servers and pay for that bandwidth.

So you have a few little windows ads paying for a entire article on how easy it is to switch to a 100 dollar OS to one that is free and works better to boot.

NOW that stings a bit.

except for Knoppix :)

[timothy]

You wrote "Debian's good for people who already have some clue about Linux, or indeed experience with *nix-alike OSen."

True, if you mean *installing* Debian, at least the Debian way :)

But for testing out whether Linux could work on one's hardware, and to give a lot of software a spin, Live CDs (I'm partial to Knoppix, partly because a lot of others, including Gnoppix, which I'd otherwise love to love, don't work as well with my hardware) are an excellent beginner course and don't cost a hard drive (or repartitioning a current one).

(And Knoppix makes IMO a pretty good 'migration' mechanism, too ... slight messiness of hard drive partitioning / formatting is the worst stickiness; other than that it is, for good and bad, a pretty limited install. After it's on, though, apt can be used to trim or expand the available software.)

timothy

Still, there are major problems.

[don_carnage]

This is my "switch" story: I just got a Dell Latitude C600 laptop. "Hey," I said to myself, "...why don't I try to install Linux on it?" So, I grabbed some RH 8.0 CD's that I had and set out to installing. The CD booted fine, I chose the standard workstation installation and off I went. When I got to the monitor / video card, I accepted the defaults and soon I was finished.

Upon reboot, the screen flashed several times at the text login prompt and finally, a teal box with garbled characters appeared in the middle of the screen. Now, being an avid /. reader, I knew that this was a problem with my X configuration. So, I hit enter to get out of the garbled box, logged on as root and edited my XF86Config file with some suggestions from a forum that I found after searching Google. I typed "startx" and boom...I was in!

So far, you would have lost the average user at the login prompt. I admit, installing on a laptop isn't always easy, but you shouldn't have to edit config files to change the "r128" to "vesa". [Relax, I'm venting here.]

The second problem I had was with the Proxim Orinoco Wireless card. No network. Card not detected. Not even a selection to add it under "Network Devices". This time, the "how-to" that I found didn't help. Nothing that I could do could make the card work. And to top it off, Proxim doesn't provide Linux drivers.

So I went with XP. One disc and everything worked.

My point is not that Windows is better than Linux, because believe me, I would rather have gone with Linux on my laptop. However, until it's easy to install (you know, just go through the prompts and most everything works), you're not going to get anyone to switch.

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[budhaboy]

Try SuSE next time...

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[maximilln]

-----
config files to change the "r128" to "vesa".
-----
You're right. You shouldn't have to do that. You probably shouldn't do it at all. Using the VESA driver negates just about every performance optimization that you had.

I see that there's a benefit to Linux not being easy to install. When Linux becomes easy to install then it will be just like Windows. The kernel will be generic (and huge) to account for all possible chipsets and drivers. Only one application will be installed for a given task. If people want to learn about their computer, how it works, and be able to use it properly then it's almost necessary for the system to be difficult. Eg. "Lemme think, learn how to debug pango, fontconfig, xft, glib, gtk, imlib, expat, qiv or go browse the web?" Which would most users choose.

I don't really have a problem with people installing Linux just as an average user and getting an easy install. What I worry about is that, due to the top-down corporate Big Brother iron fist that rules our society, when BigBrotherEasyInstallLinux becomes the popularly accepted (and funded through lucrative and huge government partnerships), will Debian be made illegal because it's different? If BBEI-Linux is easy to install, easy to use, and what the population is familiar with then the logical next question for the clueless majority is: "Why would anyone want to use Debian if it's difficult to install and maintain?" The logical next answer from the clueless majority is: *in low tones* "It's a _hacker_ distribution. They're doing things they shouldn't be doing."

So you see, once the population has EasyInstallBigBrother-Linux, water-cooler gossips come to claim Debian.

It would be better for the world to end.

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[Anonymous Coward]

Once you get companies that install and support Linux as a optional install would you switch?

As far as harddrive compatability goes there isn't much linux can do about it, but beleive me they try very veryt hard and it does help a lot.

Mostly it's up to the individual manufacturers to properly support linux. If you bought the laptop with the point of installing linux on then you could of done some research and seen that many models are aviable from 3rd parties with linux support. You could of bought those or bought a similar model from the manufacture and linux would of been fairly easy to install.

Dell, HP, Walmart, IBM, and freinds offer Linux pre-installed on their hardware. Most of it is server-centric of course, because that's were Linux has most market penatration (about 30%). Once the desktop focus that Linux developers have started aiming at is acheived then you'll see more hardware aviable with certified linux compatability.

The idea is that business servers go well with business desktops, linux servers work best with linux desktops. Windows servers work best with windows desktops. However as more and more features get piled into windows compability with other people's software becomes less and less and less.

So businesses will face choosing IBM, Novell, Sun, and numerous small-medium software/server/information businesses OR just depend on Windows for 100% of their needs.

Basicly everybody vs MS. When businesses realise vendor tie-in is bad Linux desktop for business will realy take off and then the technology to make installs easy and get perfect hardware support with no effort needed will realy take off.

(note this is actually a valid business plan vs the "it's free" anthem of the past 2-3 years.)

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with the desire to be so elite that the average user can't install your product is that no one will buy your product and you'll be out of a job.

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[Etobian]

Most of the 802.11g wireless cards have the Broadcom 54G chipset, and you cannot use them directly in Linux, mainly because Broadcom or whoever uses their chips (Linksys, Netgear, Microsoft) absolutely refuses to either release Linux drivers which reportedly exist, or make it impossible for anyone in the open-source community to create them. You have to try using a Linuxant or NDIS "wrapper," which may or may not work despite hours of "trying this" or "trying that."

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[don_carnage]

So you see, once the population has EasyInstallBigBrother-Linux, water-cooler gossips come to claim Debian.

Wow...that's rather apocalyptic. "Easy to install" does not mean the end to open source, nor does it mean a huge generic kernel. It's not like I was adding hardware after the initial install. This was the initial install. The kernel should have been built to suit the needs of the hardware in the laptop. Later, if I wanted to install more hardware, then it could easily (relatively speaking of course) ask for the disk and then recompile the kernel.

Of course, if you look at an XP disk or even "/windows" for example, it's not insanely huge (by today's HD standards.) My 80GB drive is not choking on the 800MB Windows install. I say, make a Linux distro that "has everything" and even a "huge kernel" -- it won't make distros like Debian or Gentoo go away because the developer, hacker, tinkerer community needs it.

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[don_carnage]

Oh, right. If XP doesn't work, try 2000 then 98 then 95 until you get it to work. Yeah, yeah, apples and oranges, but it still sounds silly, doesn't it.

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[sahuaro]

"My point is not that Windows is better than Linux, because believe me, I would rather have gone with Linux on my laptop. However, until it's easy to install (you know, just go through the prompts and most everything works), you're not going to get anyone to switch."

The real issue, of course, is that you have to install Linux at all. I long for the day when I can go down to BestBuy and actually have a choice of OSs on the new laptop I want to buy. And I won't buy new until that day comes! (Use Slackware and Dropline Gnome myself, sweet!)

The DOJ lawsuit has done nothing to change this.

Sahuaro

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[ThoreauHD]

That's an odd thing with the Proxim card, as that's the only card with full drivers in the linux kernel. That leads me to believe that your pcmcia slot isn't being seen properly, or the motherboard bios needs to get a firmware upgrade. Orinoco is that card of choice for linux installs. Very odd.

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[don_carnage]

PCMCIA isn't broken because XP recognized it just fine. RH 8.0 didn't even detect the card, nor did it list any Proxim cards in the "network devices" list. I tried the "cardctl" command and it listed the Proxim card, but I couldn't get the damn thing to work! Grr! What's even more degrading is that this isn't my first foray into Linux. I've used Linux, OpenBSD, and FreeBSD without problems and here I am stumped on a NIC.

Maybe I'll submit and try Mandrake...

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[schapman]

I understand that linux might be more difficult in some cases to install over windows. But if I look at my experiences with users I know, even though windowsXP might be an easy point and drool install, they still phone me, and pay me to do it for them. I have friends that are for the most part computer literate, yet when it comes to a re-install, they shy away and get me to do it so that they have a properly configured install. Sure, it works after a fresh install, but there are options to be turned off and on, 3rd party software to install, updates to do. Any they can't handle most of that on their own. I usually end up with a working install that will prompt them to install all the updates for any software they might need, just so they don't have to deal with it. The only time I can see an average user being able to install windows on their own now, is usually with "recovery cds", and most of them are scared of that. So at this point, the only thing I can see that is holding back linux from mass amounts of people switching over, is hardware vendors not releasing drivers (or letting others make them), and games. I long for the day that openGL 2.0 comes out and hopefully a plethura of games for it also, then I can make a complete switch. I run windows for one reason... DirectX. At this point its the only reason I don't tell everyone I know to switch. So for now I'm stuck with a windows gaming box, and a linux workstation at home :(

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[maximilln]

-----
This was the initial install. The kernel should have been built to suit the needs of the hardware in the laptop
-----
Most distros don't autodetect hardware and build a custom kernel for it. They use a precompiled kernel and, if they're good, they may autodetect modules to be loaded. Even so, the Debian kernels tend to be several hundred k larger than any custom kernel that I've built myself. As time goes on and hardware keeps -marching forward this will become a larger and larger problem. In order to be compatible with a broad range of hardware out of the box optimization flags will be left out and extra compatibilities will be built in.

I don't see a problem for the average user, though. The average user isn't going to notice the extra 200k in their kernel or the missing -march=k6 in qiv. Think about it within the context of an evolving society, however. BigBrotherLinux will become popular simply because it suits the needs of the largest segment of the population. Suitability leads to subsidy. Humans, as a species, are suspicious of anything that they don't directly associate with. Suspicion leads to witch hunts. Witch hunts lead to laws. Most often these laws don't correct the witch hunt but seek to outlaw the target. The prevailing message is,"Don't be different or we'll come to get you, too." That's a bit dysfunctional for a society that purports to be diverse. It also suppresses progressive development.

While everyone will be subsidizing BigBrotherLinux through public service contracts (eg. installed at schools, on government infrastructures, in corporate environments) there will be little room left, and additional questioning, for anyone who wants to use something else. The system will be much the same as the ostracization we endured during the HUGE Microsoft boom throughout the 90s. Anyone who wasn't a complete Microsoft advocate was targeted for secret smiles and smirks by the water-cooler gossips.

In a nutshell I advocate Linux being difficult to install. The only driving force behind development and improvement is to demonstrate the existence of a better approach. When the water-cooler gossips are perfect just because they use "Linux" then there will be no better approach than "BigBrotherLinux". When BigBrotherLinux begins to stagnate and bloat there will be no compelling argument against it--unless BSD is still around.

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[don_carnage]

The prevailing message is,"Don't be different or we'll come to get you, too."

So...have they come to get you yet? No? No witch hunt because you are a Pagan running Linux on a Sparc? Hmmm...that's odd.

In the end, Linux will inevitably win the desktop war. It has to. Look at the rate that Linux has developed over the past 10 years compared to Windows. But in order to win, we must get past the stereotypical "they're going to take all of our toys away" fear and develop something for the herd. Then we can start developing the next OS that everyone will fear and whisper about around the water-cooler. :^)

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[don_carnage]

You know, I get asked to install upgrades all the time also. And I've done it a million times, sometimes with problems, sometimes without. However, I have never once had to edit the Windows resistry to get the machine to boot into the GUI correctly. If there was a problem with the video card driver, then it dumps me into one that works (hell, the RH installer didn't have a problem with the video driver, why did I?), and then I can correct it via the GUI.

Now, don't get me wrong -- I like config files as much as the next *nix masochist -- however, it's nice to have that option there when you're at the console and not 800 miles away on a VT100 terminal.

My point is that most of the Linux installs feel like Voodoo. If you don't get it right the first time, you have to cook some bones, say a few words, and dig into the dark underworld that is /etc in order to make things right again. It shouldn't be this way.

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[schapman]

I think its just that it feels different. Think about if a windows install fails... your only option is to crawl up into a ball in the corner and have yourself a good cry. And yes.. I agree that more GUI will make linux easier to use, and I'm looking forward to it. But if something breaks.. at least theres the option of fixing it. When something breaks in Windows, sure I could probably fix it... but who knows what broke with it. If something fails in windows, I'll trust a re-install to fixes.. if something breaks in linux.... well..... umm..... I thought stuff just didnt break in linux :) Except for the apps that can just be re-installed.

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[maximilln]

-----
So...have they come to get you yet? No? No witch hunt because you are a Pagan running Linux on a Sparc? Hmmm...that's odd
-----
Did you run with an argument by answering your own question? Yes. Yes you did.

The correct answer was "yes". Now your response will be "You must be paranoid."

Linux may win the desktop war but, unless it remains difficult to install, BigBrotherLinux will end up with all the same problems of Windows. I wouldn't mind developing the next OS but rewriting all of my install scripts is sure going to be a PITA and I really don't want to go through the bleeding edge witch hunt again. I'm on the bleeding edge. Why can't the water-cooler gossips just deal with it?

They can dish it out but they can't take it. That's why they want easy-install Linux. They dished it out for years based on Microsoft superiority. Now that the superior MS bubble has finally started to crack they want BigBrotherEasyInstall-Linux so that they won't feel deficient anymore.

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[Anonymous Coward]

Installing an old release of redhat is not a good idea if you want support for more current hardware. Try fedora, it has much better support for wireless and a newer X server.

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[don_carnage]

Do you know where I can get the ISOs for BigBrotherEasyInstall-Linux (tm)?

Seriously though, I understand your concern. A lot of people in the Linux community have been mis-labeled as "hackers" (yes, I'm aware that there are good and bad connotations of this word), and that's unfortunate. However, we cannot let that affect future development plans for "BigBrotherEasyInstall-Linux". If the consumer market wants it, give it to them. Make money. Be happy. It surely doesn't mean the loss of access to the nitty-gritty stuff.

(Oh and PS: "Did you run with an argument by answering your own question?", yes and that's the problem with the 960,000ms lag between posts. And let's go with "discussion" instead of "argument" since I think we both agree on different levels.)

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[budhaboy]

heh.

As SuSE is an alternative OS, not a previous version, you analogy is incorect.

It has been my experience that SuSE installs on a wider range of hardware than RedHat... I have no explanation as to why this may be the case, but that is my experience.

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[maximilln]

I think RedHat was working on an .iso for EIBB-Linux until they prematurely moved to the Make Money stage.

Yes, we do agree. I would like to see every home computer running Linux. I guess I'm backtracking on the arguments of why Linux is better, though. When EIBB-Linux reigns the world, how many easily exploitable security flaws will be found in default installations of iptables rules? EIBB-Linux isn't going to attract the real netfilter gurus. While in the past the permissions structure of *nix made this a fairly paltry consideration it's currently being circumvented by beasts like Mozilla. How long before someone figures out how to load the cache with precompiled .so files masquerading as something else and figures out a way to get Java or Flashplayer to #include them? How long before users go around making everything suid root just because that's the easiest hint to solve their problem that they get from coworkers?

I think the best reason for a difficult install is that it can eventually lead the user to recognize the importance of ./configure and make as a normal user, but why make install needs to be root.

Once Linux becomes the desktop standard I can envision the following coversations:

Clueless Coworker #1: "I was using my EIBB system last night and and and weren't working correctly. I kept getting errors about and and "
Even More Clueless Coworker #2: "Oh. Just login as "root" and do everything from there. It'll solve that."
CC #1: "But I heard that using root was bad?"
EMCC #2: "That's only what those people using that _hacker_ linux say. The other way you can do it is by just logging in as root and typing chmod u+s since everything's installed by root anyways. Then you won't actually have to be root."
CC #1: "Ohhhhhhh... Okay."

And then people will wonder why spam and zombie boxes still exist. They'll say it's all because of people using that _hacker_ linux. And soon that _hacker_ linux will be illegal. I've heard about it in some dorms at liberal arts colleges a few years ago. The dorm RAs and SAs would issue warnings to students caught using Linux because only someone who wants to do something illegal would use anything but Windows.

Go figure... :-?

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[GMFTatsujin]

One of our LAN admins just got back from the Brainshare conference. He's got a Dell D600 too. When he came back to work, he was pretty thrilled to be able to show everyone in the office how he'd managed to get Red Hat installed on it, plus drivers for the built-in wireless networking and a beta of the GroupWise for Linux 6.5 client.

It works, sure. He just had to go to a conference of other networking geeks to get the help he needed. A lot of hardware installs are like that.

I don't think the argument that "it should install easy" works against merely Linux anymore. Windows XP has more than it's share of hassle on install too -- especially if you want to cook up one configuration that installs on any hardware quickly and glitch-free. Our IT department inisists that all computers running XP *must* be installed by a technician precisely for that reason -- if we didn't install it, we can't guarantee that software will run on it. This creates a lot of work for us and we'd love to be rid of it, but it has to be done. User-driven installs of Windows XP just break far too often.

And have we all forgotten that XP will refuse to boot if you change too much hardware too fast? Build me a Knoppix-style WindowsXP Live CD and then I'll believe in fairies.

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[JaxGator75]

"Normal" people aren't all hung up on the Ha> I also know you don't really care what I think...

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[JaxGator75]

haha... I'm a non-previewing loser...

To paraphrase, most "normal" people aren't all hung up on the "Hacker" mythos. Most "Normal" people (like someone's mother or that guy down the street who watches NASCAR) would feel stupid using a word like "Hacker".

I think you're a little too sure of events that haven't even had a chance to happen yet... I also know that you don't care what I think...

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[don_carnage]

I know my analogy was incorrect, but face it: there really isn't that much difference between 95 and XP? ;^)

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[JaxGator75]

Build me a Knoppix-style WindowsXP Live CD and then I'll believe in fairies.

Check the newsgroups... I think it's called a "Walk-Away". Not truly "Knoppix-style", but at least you won't have to worry about Users freestyling on the options during Install...

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[don_carnage]

The look and feel doesn't bother me. Perhaps I have completely forgotten what it was like using Windows for the first few years while I figured things out. Ah...to be a newbie again...

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[gnu-generation-one]

"So I went with XP. One disc and everything worked."

You do realise that Latitude notebook was specifically designed for WindowsXP, by component manufacturers who've never, ever tested a single product of theirs with a linux system, put together by Dell, who don't test their systems with Linux, don't offer it as an option when you buy the notebook, and are doing everything they can to pretend it doesn't exist.

It might sound like a linux problem, but really, things like this need to go to Dell. "Why doesn't your crappy laptop run my programs properly" on their support line after you've bought it, or "I'm not buying anything until it's certified by Linux Hardware" before you buy it.

Linux is good, but it's better on systems that haven't gone out of their way to become incompatible with it.

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[don_carnage]

Just for the record: the Dell worked fine with RedHat 8.0 -- it was the wireless card that didn't. The wireless card didn't come with the Dell, I put that in myself. Proxim specifically states on their drivers page that they don't support Linux.

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[nathanh]

My point is not that Windows is better than Linux, because believe me, I would rather have gone with Linux on my laptop. However, until it's easy to install (you know, just go through the prompts and most everything works), you're not going to get anyone to switch.

Nonsense. You almost switched and if your wireless card had worked then you would have switched. You'd already invested effort into getting X working, proving that you wanted Linux and were willing to work at it.

The problem is that the bar was a little higher than you were willing to jump. That's OK. I switched to Linux in 1992. The bar was pretty fucking high back then. The "installer" was 10 floppies containing files such as binutils.tar.gz and X386.tar.gz and a README explaining how to use the fdisk program. I switched anyway (leaving behind Interactive UNIX). Different people are willing to invest different levels of effort.

Though I must say, you might have gotten more joy trying Mandrake or Fedora. I honestly wouldn't have expected a 2.5 year old Linux distribution to contain built-in drivers for the hardware in the latest laptop. Perhaps your expectations were a little high.

Re:Still, there are major problems.

[Anonymous Coward]

I meant one that wasn't illegal (using a crack to circumvent a copy protection mechanism).

Xandros is a good choice

[Anonymous Coward]

I have limited experience with it, but Xandros seems to be a nice balance. It is currently based on Debian sarge (testing). It loads up a nice, friendly desktop that will feel very comfortable and familiar to most Windows users. However, with very little work, it can be set up to update from Debian directly and from any other sources of Debian packages.

No Access Advice

[ahg]

THG writes: "Currently, no native Linux application will read the Access (.mdb) format."

He makes this statement and then never follows through with any suggestions for Window users looking to make the switch. It would have been nice if he put together a cookbook recipe for transitioning Databases from Access to say a MySQL+Rekall solution.

While there's plenty of advice out there about migrating your data, (the easy part, IMHO) I have not seen any recipies for converting your forms and reports... (And as we're talking Desktop apps here, using MySQL as a backend with Access on the frontend isn't relevent)

Is there any way other than recreating the forms/reports?

I'm sure many Window users want to know.. and while I'm a seasoned Linux (as Desktop) user without any reliance on Access myself, I know of businesses that might convert if not for the Access hurdle. (So far I have had no useful advice for them)

Re:No Access Advice

[Anonymous Coward]

No.

1. The format is propriatary to MS, and is not available.
2. reverse engineering the files is not usefull, since the files change depending on the version of access.
3. forms are specifically organized toward a specific form interpreter... and that interpreter is not available... and the format of the form is not available... (Think- two layers of #1 and #2)

MS doesn't want you to be able to migrate them.

Re:No Access Advice

[don_carnage]

"...transitioning Databases from Access to say a MySQL+Rekall solution."

See, that's the problem: the plus sign in your statement. Most people just want quick and dirty. What they can't do with Excel, they hack out with Access (and I mean hack in a bad way.) Granted, I have seen my fair share of good Access applications but most are crap. Until you can provide a tool to do simple database, query, forms, and reports all in one package, then you're not going to get the masses to migrate, even if you provide a solution by combining 2 or more technologies.

Re:No Access Advice

[ahg]

" Until you can provide a tool to do simple database, query, forms, and reports all in one package, then you're not going to get the masses to migrate, even if you provide a solution by combining 2 or more technologies."

I agree with you, given the current state of things, people will not be migrating. However, I don't know that coming up with an Access clone for Linux is the way to go either. I think a sufficiently fleshed out frontend program can make the existence of a MySQL (or other RDBM) transparent to the user. If it's existence is transparent, then (1) the user won't care and (2) When that user needs something outside their current abilities (say making the DB accessable via a website) then they are already most of the way there.

Re:No Access Advice

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, it's not enough to just suck the data into MySQL (PostgreSQL is my pref, but whatever). You have to be able to transparently share it w/other Access users. Think of how OO handles doc files.

Re:No Access Advice

[WuphonsReach]

Until you can provide a tool to do simple database, query, forms, and reports all in one package, then you're not going to get the masses to migrate, even if you provide a solution by combining 2 or more technologies.

In addition, you need to provide a way for people to trade data sets around without dumping them into spreadsheets or hiring a full-time DBA.

MSAccess is extremely useful in that scenario because everything is self-contained in a single file. Want to work on a temp copy? Create a copy of the MDB just like you'd create a copy of a spreadsheet file or a document file. Send it to a co-worker? Again, works just like spreadsheet/document files. Make a backup copy to disk? No need to learn arcane commands, just drag-n-drop the MDB file.

Yes it sucks for multi-user situations or bajillion row recordsets... but for dealing with low-end database tasks that don't require central storage, it's good enough to do the job. Simple enough to be usable by the average user and meets 90%+ of their needs. Tough combination to beat unless you build an MSAccess clone.

Re:No Access Advice

[greygent]

You've completely missed the point of this article, which is targeted towards Windows desktop users. These people are not going to have the time, experience, or desire to learn how to use MySQL, let alone any non-point and click GUI database migration tools.

Re:No Access Advice

[greygent]

You've completely missed the point of this article, which is targeted towards Windows desktop users. These people are not going to have the time, experience, or desire to learn how to use MySQL, let alone any non-point and click GUI database migration tools.

How your post got moderated as Insightful, I've no clue.

Re:No Access Advice

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, OpenOffice has bulit in DB (and acroding to some people, it's the best interface they've seen). But I don't know about the migration path.

All the roadmaps

[dallaylaen]

What we REALLY need to make Linux victorious is

(1) more commented out alternatives in

something.conf.default
something.conf.sample

to uncomment them when needed;

(2) GUI tools which allow to Advanced->Edit config and give help on what you type right away.

A smart user will soon understand how to get it working, configure it, and forget all his config suffering as a nightmare, 'cause his Linux will be conf'ed and ready for the work/music/mail.

Re:All the roadmaps

[drinkypoo]

More commented alternatives is not the answer. When it comes to config files, more examples with good comments are the answer. But if you have a GUI tool, you don't need any commented examples in the config file, you have a tool to configure the software. Also one thing that would dramatically improve the Linux experience for many users would be to improve the quality of man pages. Most of them are missing key information like SEE ALSO or EXAMPLES.

Re:All the roadmaps

[Anonymous Coward]

the commented alternatives are great for those of us that like to know - there's no reason a good GUI tool can't cope with a nicely commented config file backend. why not do both? it'd make me happy, especially since i could use the gui tool to try out variations, watch the changes in the conf, and then do my own by hand (or other means).

as far as the man pages go: how about one of those "you have logged into..." login messages that also explains how to use apropos? if i'd known about that years ago when i was first introduced to *nix, rather than just making random guesses with man, i'd be a lot farther along by now.

granted, that doesn't get you anywhere if you don't have at least some relevant vocabulary, but anybody that *has chosen* to look at the CLI (while also offered the GUI way) at least wants to learn... you will get a lot more clueful users (like i am becoming) a lot faster that way.

the SEE ALSO stuff that is already included in some man pages has been the most useful source of information for me besides my friends.

Re:THG? The Humble Guys?

[Civil_Disobedient]

I know what you mean. Some of us are friggin' old as dirt around here. I remember when MiXeD cases first started, back in the day. Now Tom's Hardware Guide has taken over the moniker of the infamous, and hardly anyone is the wiser.

I often find myself doing double-takes on ICE and INC abbreviations as well...

Ahhh... the good 'ol days.

Re:interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

When I switched from Windows, I went to Slackware

K3b

[CandyMan]

I don't know in Gnome-land, but KDE has K3b, which gives Nero, in my humble opinion, a run for its money.

Real life anecdote: two weeks ago I went to my friend Lorenzo's with a Knoppix disc, booted it and showed him. He liked it and wanted to keep it, but it was my only copy and I had deleted the ISO from my own hard drive. No problem. Mount his HD read/write, fire K3b, select the HD for temp storage of the iso, and rip/burn in under 30 minutes. Flawless.

The operating system was running from the same CD we were copying, mind you. No hassle.

Re:K3b

[ckaminski]

dd if=/dev/cdrom of=/friends-hdd/cdrom.iso

No GUI. :-)

Re:K3b

[CandyMan]

Yes, but the parent said Nero was the proof Linux had still a ways to go before it was gui-friendly for ex-windows users. The correct answer to that is "k3b", not "dd".

...and the best part with K3B...

[DrYak]

unlike all Windows based (*) burner software, but like all good linux software : They don't try to reinvent the wheel. K3B is just a simple (but really wonderful) newbie-friendly interface, that use the power of kickass application like cdparanoia, cdrecord, ... so you have all the niceties this program implements. The only thing I miss : - to be able to force a data compare for every imaginable step (like DiscJuggler does on Windows) - multiple session (no ! not mutlisession CDs, but multiple K3B running on several diffrent burners) - support for non standart formats (.NRG, .CDI, ...) the net is full of small tools that can do xyz->CUEBIN conversion. to bad K3B doesn't support them automatically in it's interface.

Re:...and the best part with K3B...

[alan_dershowitz]

Holy crap you are right. The ONLY reason I go back into Windows these days is to burn those weird-ass CD images.

For everything else I do, Linux varies between great to tolerable.

Re:THG? The Humble Guys?

[DR SoB]

:) iCE & ACiD: ANSI art at it's finest..

Costs More then Fedora

[nurb432]

Thats one issue to consider.

Too bad he didnt discuss FBSD..

Re:CONGRADULATIONS!

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell are you talking about? For the record, I don't think that Debian is the best choice for everyone. What I was trying to get accross is that Debian has a quality (slow release cycle) that can be very appealing to non-typical Linux geeks (ie, the guys who hang out on slashdot and like to tweak things all the time). And it also suits the needs of people who aren't into Linux for Linux's sake, but just want a stable, solid platform to work on.
I'm no Debian zelot, but it is my distro of choice for very logical reasons. I started out on Slackware back in '95, and promptly switched to Debian when I found out how much easier it makes maintaining your system. I've played around with FreeBSD and OpenBSD as well. I've stuck with Debian because it's the easiest for me to maintain over time, and probably the most stable Linux distro (owing to extensive testing and slow release cycle). I'm quite aware that Debian/stable isn't for everyone. Especially not most slashdot users who like to have latest version of all the programmes-du-jour. But many casual users don't care about the latest gee-whiz-bang program, so long as they can do email, browse and play mp3's.
Besides, Debian isn't just Debian. It's also Knoppix...

Re:Put another way

[value_added]

There's fewer steps required to install than to read the guide.

Damn, they leave me on half way!!!!

[yudan]

After following their instruction to download Linux distros, to find my way to use pirate Nero to burn CDs, to check the HW compatibility, backing up everything, converting the non-linux friendly file format, and formating my M$ partition, they told me to hold on, they are thinking about what to do the next???!!!!

Re:Damn, they leave me on half way!!!!

[not5150]

Uh... the article didn't get into formatting/converting yet.

Re:Damn, they leave me on half way!!!!

[thisgooroo]

1. i didn't see anything about reformatting the HD
2. which part of part 1 did you not understand?

The linuxes

[thegnu]

Debian is kind of a bitch to install. Probably not on all computers, or when you have a clue what you're doing, but it scared me off linux at first.

Mandrake, Suse, and RH have a user-friendly windowsy feel to them (this is, in fact, an article about migrating from windows). Suse and RH have loads of money invested in making their operating system easy to use for their paying customers, and it trickles down to the the cheap bastards who will spend the time to download the software.

Debian has no such drive to have "easy" be right at the top of their list. I adore Debian, it's just a colicky child when placed aside M, S, and RH.

A Good Guide, as long as everything works.

[rueger]

Arrgh! Yet another guide to Linux that seems mostly to say "And then go and read this long and obscure web page to try and figure out if your hardware will work".

My biggest criticism is that the article, like pretty much every similar one, does not warn the unsuspecting beginner that there is a significant likelihood that there will be at least one insoluble problem.

Even though things have improved greatly in Linux installation, new people need to understand that one of either their video card, palm sync, scanner, or networking will not work out of the box, and that tracking down a solution can take hours or days.

The last thing that Linux needs is more people throwing up their hands in despair after ten hours of an install gone horribly wrong. It's better to warn them right up front that things are still quite a bit less reliable than a Windows install.

dual boot

[InodoroPereyra]

Even I failed to see it or it's not mentioned in the article. But anyways, never underestimate how much more comfortable the "switcher" will feel if (s)he keeps a win partition available.

I did this at home. The computer came with Win98 at the time, I installed RedHat as dual boot, and for the first week or two my wife kept rebooting now and then, but very quickly she preferred to leave it running Linux, and that was it. This machine is now happily running Mandrake, with tipical uptimes of months.

Re:dual boot

[Jadrano]

But anyways, never underestimate how much more comfortable the "switcher" will feel if (s)he keeps a win partition available.

I think that is very important. When I first installed Linux about five years ago, I never would have done so when I couldn't have kept Windows on a partition (the version of Linux I had at that time didn't support all of my hardware, anyway). First, I continued using mainly Windows, and the two times when I was most glad about having Linux on the computer were when Win98 crashed irrecoverably and couldn't read the hard disk any more - Linux still could, and I could save my data on the Windows partition. With the time, Linux shifted from a 'recovery tool' for Windows to the OS I used most, and for my new desktop computer, I exclusively use Linux, but I still have Windows on a notebook because sometimes I have to use software that isn't available for Linux.
I think many people are much more comfortable with switching gradually - with dual boot or more than one computer -, and there are many people are interested in using Linux, but can't do without Windows for some reason. Therefore, good support for installing Linux besides Windows (resizing Windows partitions etc.) is crucial, and I think some distributions (e.g. SuSE) are quite good at that.

HAW HAW

[thegnu]

I'm not condoning your potty mouth, but nonetheless, good one.

Re:What about Libranet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Libranet is also based on Debian, and has a downloadable "Classic" edition you can try, although I'd just spring the bucks and get 2.8.1.

Very nice, user friendly, compact, and well supported.

Advice from the article

[Chuck Bucket]

• We recommend Red Hat Fedora, Mandrake Linux or SUSE for the first time switchers. These three distributions are easy to install, have good hardware compatibility and come with boatloads of software. As you gain Linux experience, you can try more difficult distributions such as Debian or Gentoo.

...and when you're not using Gentoo, feel free to dis it and spread FUD! [sarcasm]

seriously, read this, and learn before you talk about things you don't understand Dispelling the myths of Gentoo Linux, an honest review

VCfhjg

I liked the Windows XP ad.

[!ucif3r]

I loved the fact that right below Tux there was a Windows XP media center ad on the page. Right in the middle there. I am sure the ad's rotate, but that's what I saw when I loaded it up.

Switch to linux, and while your doing that why not get yourself a copy of Windows XP media center edition. It's the greatest!

Re:CONGRADULATIONS! (sic)

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, Debian is lousy for a newbie, but I think Gentoo and its loyal following is MUCH worse. And although it's important that a user not have to update their system every month, the ancient applications that come with any stable version of Debian are fairly useless.

Other OSS for Win32

[DrYak]

May I also mention GnuWin (Developped in Switzerland)

Same stuff :
Free(Libre) and OpenSource apps for Windows XP.
The advantages of Gnuwin are : you can view the content online, and download online 1 or 2 apps, no need to download the full ISO. (But you can, and you'll end up with the same content on you CD like the web site).

And I agree too, that one can start slowly by first getting used to the application and then smoothly switch to Linux.
I did it my self :
I first start using DJGPP instead of BorlandC, and then switch from DOS to Linux/CLI. Yes, that was a long time ago.

Re:CONGRADULATIONS! (sic)

[Anonymous Coward]

Ancient or not, the apps are far from useless. There's thousands of packages to choose from, so even if one app doesn't fit the bill, chances are that another one will.
The main bitch I had with Debian is that some useful software doesn't get supported because of license issues. Some pretty damn common software too, like Acroread. And the alterntive (xpdf) is not nearly as capable...
Then again, there's some 3rd-party sites that provide packaged versions of those softwares, so it's all good (if you know where to look).

SCO's next target

[TheJavaGuy]

I guess Tom's Hardware is now on SCO's black list.

In Linux we trust!

Question on Themes

[robertsloan2]

I'm on Red Hat 9 on a Toshiba Tecra 8000 networked to a Windows PC. The one thing I hated about Linux was the black type on white background default in most of the themes. The only dark theme available was white on navy blue and clunky. On Windows, I could select colors for menu bars and choose icons and sounds while in use, on Linux, I can't do that on the fly. That sounds petty, but I used to change colors and themes constantly in any long work session to reduce eyestrain. I created color combinations and saved them whenever I was bored, from psychedelic "roommate keep off this computer" warning colors to soothing deep-sea greens or Gothic red and black stuff while doing horror stories. I themed the colors to my writing in progress and it's still something I miss. Eventually a friend pointed me to freshmeat.com and I successfully downloaded a lightweight dark theme, Black Marble 2. Changing background became what I did to set the theme of a writing project -- but ever since I found out most of their gorgeous themes wouldn't work automatically, I have stayed off the site. Cool as they are, they aren't the ones I would make up on the spot. So this is a double question: Is there a Gnome "custom" theme that would let me make on the fly font and color changes within its parameters, for everyday use? Is there a way that I can create new Themes without being a programmer and understanding code? If I could do variations on Black Marble 2, it would still run light but I could vary the font color, typeface and maybe even the skinny .jpg files that make the top bar on the windows by drawing those in GIMP to the same size. I'd like to learn how, and if I ever get it, will probably upload a lot of neat themes to Freshmeat. :)

Re:Question on Themes

[afd8856]

Why don't you address this question on a Linux distro forum, a linux newbie list, or the Gnome forums? I think you would have much more success... I'm wondering, why didn't you do it until now, if it's so important to you?

Re:Question on Themes

[robertsloan2]

I had one dark theme working, so now custom themes are a back burner project. I'm learning all the time and new to Slashdot too. Sorry if I went off topic with it. It's just one of those things that I ask whenever I meet anyone who knows anything about Linux, because sooner or later I will meet someone who's had to solve it or found it a fun problem. When I know how to handle it, I'll pass it on. Possibly put up a page on it somewhere. :)

Thanks for the tip...

[robertsloan2]

Considering that a new Dell laptop is on my wish list, on account of Dell's decent prices and my wizard friend's recommendation that Dell supports Linux, this was good to know. I figure I will deal, setting up a dual boot until I get any new system stable and pestering Slashdot and Dell till I figure out how to get any hardware set up. One of the things I noticed about the process is that troubleshooting Linux installs takes some guesswork. The expert doing the troubleshooting does not always know which trick worked, and there are usually a number of options. The key here is "Proxim doesn't provide Linux drivers." If that wireless card came with the machine, ouch. If it didn't, I know to avoid getting a Proxim wireless card. Thanks! Robert and Ari >^..^

Re:Thanks for the tip...

[don_carnage]

The Proxim didn't come with the laptop -- it was one that I had in a different system. If I were going to choose something to work with the version of Linux that I wanted to run, I would have checked the "supported hardware" page.

That's just it though, isn't it. Why should the hardware tailor to the software? Shouldn't that be the other way around?

Perhaps we need a way to allow Windows device drivers to work with Linux -- anyone working on that yet? :^)

Why not Mozilla Thunderbird or Mail and News?

[LightStruk]

I'll second the recommendation for Pan - it's a terrific newsreader and supports all the latest technologies.
Otherwise, if you're already using Firefox, why don't you try Mozilla Thunderbird? It's a great email client and newsreader, and it's definitely far more featureful and secure than Outlook Express.

Re:interesting.., part II

[smittyoneeach]

"Windows doesn't like you!"

"but you got a purty wallet..."

Pr0n is holding the Linux revolution back!

[Joe Enduser]

From the migration checklist:

Migrating your documents step 2: find all your .wmv, .avi and .mpg and burn them to a cd/dvd
Have a friend look over what you did. Does the cd work on his computer?

Sounds like more fun for that friend than having to remove the Comet Cursor from the guy's box time and time again.

Re:you don't want to do this

[Anonymous Coward]

No, Adolf, BSD is the Devil; linux is the penguin.
Next you will recommend invading Soviet Russia, only to find that, in Soviet Russia, Soviet Russia invades you!

What i find funny is...

[Loconut1389]

The nice big windows media center edition ad in the middle of the windows to linux conversion article... granted the author of the article did not choose the ad.. but funny none the less.

toms hardware / windows xp advertisements

[Anonymous Coward]

hey thats great how toms hardware posted that switch doc - it's funny how windows xp advertisement are posted everywhere....just my two cents.

davec
debian user i switched in 1997

Humble Guys go Straight?

[fishbowl]

Anybody else here immediately think "The Humble Guys" when they see THG?

Fedora Support Forums

[Jman314]

If you want some help with Fedora, join the community at fedoraforum.org

Why didn't you install Windows ME or 98 on it ?

[rolling_bits]

I mean, RH8 is old. To support the hardware you need the drivers. With Linux you don't need to search for your drivers if your distro has them right as does WinXP. On laptops I would try the latest versions of the distros. GL

Re:Why didn't you install Windows ME or 98 on it ?

[don_carnage]

Err...I believe XP came out before RH 8.0.

Re:Why didn't you install Windows ME or 98 on it ?

[rolling_bits]

Alright, time flies, so can you with Windows XP, according to some MS advertisement. Fly away, would you ?

Let's hope Part II is about migrating servers

[quanta]

If you have ever migrated a Windows NT domain to Samba, you know what I mean...

Re:No </imho>

[dallaylaen]

No, the point is that the /. crowd must now post their IMHO, not their dogmas ;)

Conspicuous by its absence is a modem.

[Easy2RememberNick]

OK maybe it's just my short attention span but I've been skimming over the Tom's article and the posts here and so far "modem" is nowhere to be seen.
I can't afford high speed and external modems are rare in my experience. Anyone starting out trying Linux will quickly go insane trying to configure their modem, which 99% of the time is a WinModem.
Even Tom's hardware checklist has no modem on it. Am I really that far behind? Anyway most new to Linux use old hardware which more than likely uses a modem and not DSL or Cable. ...maybe it's in there somewhere I'll keep reading.

Re:Conspicuous by its absence is a modem.

[cr0sh]

Last time I got a modem working with linux, it was a modem in a Compaq Presario 1610 laptop - Debian Woody. This was late last year, Oct-Nov timeframe.

Amazingly, it worked - I don't know if it was used the LinModem drivers (Lucent), or what - but I was able to dial out just fine with it, which surprised the hell out of me.

For those that don't know, the modem in a 1610 is a "built-in" modem, has a jack on the left side of the laptop, next to the floppy drive. It almost has to be a win-modem type of setup, but once again, I can't remember off-hand.

As far as external hardware modems are concerned, they are still made, but it is rare to find them at retail outlets...

But I want more of an explanation!

[Tom Courtenay]

I use Mandrake 10 at home, and have been playing with that distro since 7.something. The fact is that I really don't know a lot about Linux or the way it works.

By "it", I mean the filesystem, installing programs etc.
I know you can install RPMs, but is that the only format? Where do programs install to? How do you uninstall them?

These may be stupid questions, but I'm an advanced Windows user making an effort to switch and I don't know this stuff!

Can someone point me in the right direction?

Re:But I want more of an explanation!

[rmm4pi8]

presuming you're not trolling, email me and ask anything you want about mdk. should be able to give you a good answer. as for installing programs...rpms automatically install in /usr, but rather than like windows where each program gets its own folder which includes its graphics, executables, etc, there are folders which hold a particular kind of file for all the programs you have installed. programs can be installed many other ways, however. software management under the mandrake control center provides a way to visually uninstall.

Re:But I want more of an explanation!

[Tom Courtenay]

Thank you for your response. This is exactly the type of information I'm looking for.

Are you aware of any resources which outline these "middle-tier" types of questions?

I certainly wasn't trolling, just being honest. I'm a software developer who's spent all of my time in an MS environment. I want to understand the nitty gritty of my OS, but not at a kernal level.

They're running FreeBSD

[Anonymous Coward]

The Tom's Hardware Web server is Apache under FreeBSD. They installed it thanks to sysinstall.

Re:They're running FreeBSD

[Anonymous Coward]

No, their Web host installed it.

PARENT POST IS SPAM MOD IT DOWN

[Anonymous Coward]

What is with this guy? Every post he makes has misleading urls that spam you to his site MOD HIM DOWN!

MSFT's advertising is to gauge Linux interest

[Anonymous Coward]

MSFT's ad delivery system gets the http access logs for who and specifically what browser and OS combination viewed each Tom's Hardware page. MSFT probably has one gigantic data warehouse of information from all of their advertising on various websites that is targeted against people switching to Linux. MSFT wants exact figures of who is converting to Linux so they will know when it is the beginning of the end (and unfortunately plan accordingly, hopefully MSFT will die with class rather than with animosity). No one knows the market share and interest in Linux better than MSFT! (or so they think)

I kind of hope someone has been feeding them errant data warehouse information all this time, but it's more likely MSFT can't see the forest through the trees of what their data warehouse information is telling them. Gauging interest in Linux is very different than gauging interest in a normal MSFT competitor's proprietary product.

XNews

[optimus2861]

Pan is a close second to XNews, but XNews is only available under Windows. A few things I miss from XNews after moving from WinXP to Mandrake at home:

• Ability to open multiple newsgroups at once; this is useful to download the headers from a binaries newsgroup while reading a discussion newsgroup.
• Ability to automatically filter a binaries newsgroup to show complete multi-part attachments only. Pan can show complete attachments, but can't filter single-parters from multi-parters. In multimedia newsgroups, this is nice to filter out all the "txt"/"nfo"/"sfv"/"par"/etc attachments and just see the actual media files.
• Automatically jump to watched threads when opening a newsgroup.
• A plonker. (A bit redundant with a score file, but it's quicker to hit "K" and begone with a troll than have to edit the full score file; personal preference I suppose.)
• Cleaner UI for adding entries to the score file, especially when you want the entry to apply to all newsgroups. In Pan, you have to edit the newsgroup name to read ".", which isn't intuitive. The format of the score file under Pan isn't quite as friendly as XNews, either, but that's also kind of a personal preference.

Hopefully in a couple more releases Pan will close the gap and surpass XNews.

Re:I used to work at Tom's Hardware

[Anonymous Coward]

You're only jealous cause Tom wouldn't share his boogers with you.

a very comprehensive backup and preperation

[iceco2]

THG seems to be very very carefull about everything. I have migrated my share of Windows boxes to Linux but never done as carefull and systematic job of preparing for the install. Yet I have been sorry I missed any one of the steps suggested so I say: good job!
anybody with mission critical data will probably want to use this guide, a home user converting his old desktop just to see how he likes it can probably find a much simpler guide.

Me.

What about Dual Boot?

[Ripplet]

Surely the best way to start out is to set your machine up with dual boot, so you can start using Linux, but still have access to all your Windows stuff if necessary. The article rather sounds as if you are going to completely blow away your windows installation, which I think is a very dangerous thing to do straight off as a newbie.
All the backup stuff is good, but you should really be doing this anyway on a regular basis. Although a backup is certainly recommended before doing anything as heavy as a new O/S install, it's much safer just to resize your old partitions and use the empty space to install Linux in.
This is what I did, and in fact I'm still using the FAT32 partition with most of my data on, simply because I can access it from both Linux and Windows. I haven't quite got replacements for all my standard Windows apps yet, so this way I can get the best of both worlds, and be safe. I'm surprised THG didn't recommend this.

Drivers?

[shish]

The checklist has a sheet for making sure you have all your drivers, but why? I've never needed to go and hunt for drivers, they've all been included in the default kernel. As such, someone googling for the drivers and not finding them may well be put off more than on.

Plagiarizer

[qwertyatwork]

"If it makes a mistake, it's because I screwed it up. Not because it doesn't like me"

If your going to rip off The Mentors The Conscience of a Hacker please give him credit.

Re:Plagiarizer

[Anonymous Coward]

The parent already credited Mentor.

ob SovRus comment

[Soul-Burn666]

In soviet russia, Windows doesn't like you!
In the rest of the world, it's you that don't like Windows.... Actually that stands also for russia ;)

Debian is easy to install

[emarkp]

I just installed Debian to replace Mandrake 9, and it was far easier to install.

Of course, I installed Knoppix and then installed to the hard drive. But I didn't have to go through the tons of menus in Mandrake to select packages, hardware, etc. Knoppix just worked.

Re:Debian is easy to install

[Anonymous Coward]

IOW, you installed knoppix...

Re:Debian is easy to install

[rsheridan6]

Knoppix is easier to install than Mandrake, but the installer doesn't give you a lot of control. As I recall, it installed everything on one partition with the default user "knoppix", and it had a weird mix of testing and unstable packages which sometimes gave me trouble when upgrading. Maybe the situation has improved since then. The Debian installer gives the user more power, at the cost of being a pain in the ass to use.

I'd still tell any newbie to install Knoppix to the hard drive, because it has the best hardware detection of any distro I've tried and sets things up in the most sensible manner.

CD-formats : In worst case...

[DrYak]

The ONLY reason I go back into Windows these days is to burn those weird-ass CD images.

If no linux tool (like cdirip) can help you, there's still a way :

You can still convert them to something more useful using cdmage under wine

(I don't have Windows on my machine at all. So that's the only way I found to do it)

BTW: does anyone know good tools similar to CDMage under Linux ?

Getting video to work

[tepples]

There is no need to learn anything to install Mandrake

Unless Mandrake fails to find your video card. When I tried to install Mandrake 9.2, it found my Radeon video card, but when it tried to start X, it couldn't find any usable video modes. Only somebody with prior knowledge of getting XFree86 to work on a PC running Linux would know to fall back to the VESA driver.

Plus what am I to do with a donated Canon printer and Microtek scanner that aren't listed as supported in CUPS and SANE respectively?

Google

[tepples]

Damn... It's in this weird PDF file format... PDF... Um...

Why would somebody who doesn't even know how to type an initialism into Google on a public library computer want to change to a different brand of operating system on his or her home computer?

Compatibility with donated hardware?

[tepples]

My ... printer, scanner ... all work with Mandrake linux.

You must have a really understanding family if you can dictate make and model to those who buy your Christmas presents. Mandrake 9.2 didn't work with an ATI Radeon 9000 video card in accelerated mode (X11 reported "no supported modes"), a Canon S520 inkjet printer (printed the test page at 60 percent size) or a Microtek Scanmaker 4850 scanner (still listed as unsupported in SANE).

Re:SuSE is an alternative OS

[Anonymous Coward]

SuSE is NOT an OS, alternative or otherwise.
SuSE is a distro; GNU/Linux is the OS.

The correct analogy (in the parent) would have been XP Home vs. XP Pro.

gewg_

ease of Install

[AgtSmith]

For the new user the best distro that I have found is XandrOs 2.0. This is a debian based. Although a lot of hardcore linux users may not like it. It's probably the best to convert users to linux.

Re:if a windows install fails

[Anonymous Coward]

How many times have you seen a Windoze install fail?
This is not a troll. I am truly curious.
Did you ever discover what the hangup was?

gewg_

Filename restrictions are not necessary

[dara]

What is with the restriction on filenames (in the migration checklist)?

I have not made the transition to Linux (and I'm not planning to for a while longer), but I have a lot of files named with upper and lower case and spaces, and when I play on Linux, I don't have any problem with them. I am not changing any filename I don't have to (unless there is a character allowed by Windows which is not allowed by Unix - probably true - but I couldn't find a reference). I'm not aware of any reason not to have spaces in Unix. The command line still works using quotes and/or tab completion and any modern file manager is going to work fine too. If a certain application doesn't work opening the file, I can find that out later and rename the file then.

This kind of advice is just hindering people from switching by putting another obstacle in front of them. What for?

Dara

Re:Filename restrictions are not necessary

[not5150]

The average person cannot type that well.. so keeping everything in lower case will help them. Remember the article was made for the average person, not the geek (like yourself)

Re:Filename restrictions are not necessary

[seb249]

Yes you can have white space in file names - not a problem.
When you get to the stage of doing operations on thousands of files, you will find that it is easier to do on the command line. Then you will realise that in particular spaces are a pain in the butt!

So for an end user - spaces and upper case letters, not a problem. If you have a system administrator though - he will appreciate it if you put things in lower case without spaces.

My Two Cents

Re:Filename restrictions are not necessary

[thisgooroo]

What is with the restriction on filenames (in the migration checklist)?

next to this recommendation was the (somewhat cryptic) remark that it would make your life easier when pulling the files into the installed linux.

unless there is a character allowed by Windows which is not allowed by Unix - probably true - but I couldn't find a reference

unless i'm grossly mistaken, you can use any chararcter in unix file names, but in some cases (e.g. when filenames contain characters that have special meaning in the shell) accessing the files from the command line can be a pain in the neck

Re:Filename restrictions are not necessary

[Anonymous Coward]

Unix: any character except '/'.

Since it is reserved for use as the path separator, there's no way to escape it for use in a filename.

UNSUPPORTED

[tepples]

tracking down a solution can take hours or days.

Or years, in the case that the maintainers of a scanner API have to negotiate with a manufacturer for access to specifications for a peripheral's trade-secret wire protocol so that they can write drivers.

I do this already

[Praeluceo]

If you want, you can try Slashdotting my feeble website, but here's my checklist:
http://web.praeluceo.net/docs/LinuxIns tall.pdf

I install Linux on friends and family computers. I have only used this particular document once, and it proved fairly successful. Apart from some questions arising regarding a few terms I used in it, it was very beneficial to both myself (as the Installer) and the person I was working with.

Something to keep in mind is who you're working with. Your traditional computer user isn't going to know they have a Pentium IV 2.4 GHz CPU, with 256 MB DDR266 RAM. They won't know the brand or chipset of their NIC, or the size of their hard drive half the time. People know how big "C" is, but on most manufactured computers, that's only part of the drive, the rest is tied up in a "recovery partition". They are the same people that respond with "Windows" when you ask them what internet browser they use, or "Netscape" when you ask them what their operating sytem is (I have gotten both of these in various forms).

But that's just my opinion.

(no response) That's what I thought

[Anonymous Coward]

Anecdotal crap

Choice leaves freedom unsatisfied.

[jbn-o]

I think this thread exemplifies the reason why the FSF asks people to consider giving GNU a share of the credit (not just the Linux kernal) and encourage people to teach those who join our community to value software freedom.

Having a choice in programs is a far weaker criteria than having freedom. One can have two proprietary programs to choose from (XNews and Microsoft Outlook, for news reading) and choice is satisfied. More choices might be preferable, but one can't complain that there are no choices available. So if we focus on software choice we're less likely to think anything is wrong so long as proprietors serve our needs. Software freedom, on the other hand, remains unsatisfied with these two choices. It isn't until one introduces free software like Pan, slrn, and Mozilla that one can begin to satisfy the desire to share and modify software and build self-sufficient communities around these freedoms. We can provide choice for ourselves if we have the freedom to do so.

One of the most underrated FSF essays I've read is the one describing the difference between the free software and open source movements. I highly suggest reading it, whether one is familiar with these movements or not. The story it retells about what happens when we dismiss software freedom and accept mere openness (what happened at the "Open Source Developers Day" meeting in August 1998) is instructive and the logic about why we should value software freedom (in the section called "Fear of Freedom") is compelling.

What are the foolproof backup settings for k3b ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, I am a newbie ... What are the best foolproof
settings on K3b for backing up your home dir on
Linux ?

Are the default K3b settings OK ? They don't seem to
preserve file perms. Should you also check TRANS.TBL
and Joliet ?

I usually also have Windoze files on my Linux box,
with whitespace in the file names and all. Is that
an issue ?