Wal-Mart Sells PCs Preloaded With Sun's Linux

badboy3062 writes "Wal-Mart this week started selling Microtel PCs preloaded with Sun's Java Desktop System. Prices start at under $300 for a system without a floppy drive or monitor. Jonathan Schwartz, Sun's executive vice president for software, says this move is just another step in its plan to gain new audiences for its technologies."

Comments

Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[The I Shing]

No... must... not... shop... at... evil... Wal*Mart... must... stay... away...

It kind of pains me to see this. Why does a store that I hate have to go and do something that smacks of coolness? Why couldn't it be Target or KMart?

And isn't Microtel a motel chain?

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[boisepunk]

KMart? is that some online shopping utility that comes with KDE?

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[irokitt]

Selling a $300 US computer with Linux is not "something that smacks of coolness." Wal-Mart just doesn't want to pay for an OEM Windows license, since that would end up being a significant portion of the cost. This is like Fry's on-the-cheap Linux systems. They cost ~$250 US, and use woefully outdated parts to achieve that low price. Adding a Windows license would kick that price up considerably.

And yes, yes it is.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[boisepunk]

Maybe having Linux being "good enough for government work" isn't exactly the image we want Linux to have. Just like I think having Linux on cheap, disposable, sub-par computers from places like Wal-mart may not be the best thing either.

The real goal is to have people see Linux as a viable alternative, not a cheap Windows imitation or some eccentric thing the government uses.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[The I Shing]

Selling a $300 US computer with Linux is not "something that smacks of coolness."

The 2nd def. in the dictionary of "smack" is "To have or exhibit indications of the presence of any character or quality."

So by "smacks of coolness" I just mean that it's something that indicates coolness, but that doesn't mean that it is, indeed, cool.

Like when Duncan says to the injured sergeant, "So well thy words become thee, as they wounds; they smack of honor, both." Just gives the appearance, you know?

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[Golias]

Why does a store that I hate have to go and do something that smacks of coolness?

Wal-Mart also sells a good-quality, extremely easy-to-hack DVD player with digital sound output and S-Video out... for $30.

I don't get all this hatred of Wal-Mart. Sure, some of what they sell is cheap crap, but for the most part they seem to be pretty much the same as any discount retail chain. (And though it pains me to say so as a Minnesotan, their prices are usually better than Target's.)

Is it the stigma of it being a chain that grew out of the rural midwest and South? Is it the result of people buying into the "OMG, they're killing the small-towns" nonsense? What's the problem? Seriously.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[Dogbert2006]

I agree with that, and would add that they could just as easily sell it as an 'Internet Browsing' machine, or 'Word Processor', etc to appeal to the masses.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[jargoone]

The reason everyone hates them is because they strong-arm suppliers into providing them product at prices costs below what any other retailer can purchase the same product at. So they can sell it for less than the smaller guy's cost, and still profit. Small(er) guy can't win, has to go out of business.

Seriously, if you care, do a search and educate yourself. It's not hard to find -- the web is literally covered with anti-WalMart material.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[ttldkns]

Plus the fact they dont need to pay for the * Internet security suite that is almost obligatory these days.

although what will happen when a regular joe finds they cant put AOL on their new budget PC? they'll buy a more expensive one that "works".

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[lvirden]

If you check out the walmart site, you will see that they have other models (higher priced ones at least - I didn't look to see if there were similarly priced ones) that come with Windows XP Home on them. So it isn't that they didn't want to pay for the license - they already are paying for the license.

Sun talked Walmart into selling them - in the same manner as Lindows was cutting such deals (and perhaps still are) with various chains.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[mgs1000]

I'm sure then can get XP for a few cents/copy from their Chinese suppliers.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[bhtooefr]

PengAOL is an AOL connection app for Linux. There, you happy?

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is especially true if these things use cheap memory that causes crashes -- as seen with Windows, people tend to blame the OS for hardware faults.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[dasmegabyte]

Right. I don't think what Linux really needs is to be associated with really ugly, underpowered, outdated systems (please no replies on how 1.6 GHz and 128 meg should be good enough or how you're running Linux on a postage stamp). This just make Windows look more like the luxury option.

But how much luxury is it? When I bought my first IBM compatible in 1989, the guy offered to knock $50 off if we went with PC-DOS (or was it DR-DOS) instead of MS-DOS. My dad got pretty pissed at the assumption that he couldn't afford the market leader in software when he was shelling out $2000 for a top of the line 386DX40 (AMD!) with a genuine SoundBlaster 8 bit soundcard. And the difference there was much more subtle...you could run pretty much any MS-DOS app on the alternative OS. You can't do that with Windows and Linux. It's not the difference between power windows or the crank. It's the difference between driving on the interstate, or having to drive backroads all the time. That's one hell of a decision for $50.

Do we really want Linux and Java to be known as the ghetto class solution? Is the benefit of "availability" in Wal-Mart worth the detriment of association with Wal-Mart, especially considering you can't buy a single Linux program at Wal-Mart?

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[Eagle5596]

KMart? is that some online shopping utility that comes with KDE?

No, KMart is the kingdom of the grand high demon queen who seeks to subjugate the world with cheap mechandise and tips on being a housewife. It is a realm of pure evil ruled by a merciless overlord whose very looks can slay the living... or at least turn them into a tastefully tacky center piece.

She carves doilies out of the flesh of the living, makes mobiles out of their entrails, and bakes their bones into wedding cakes. Fear her, the bringer of doom, lest she varnish her deck chairs in your blood!

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[Curtman]

Well look at that. Here is a link to save others a stop at google. Also found a tutorial. Whats the chances this microtel thing comes with a non-winmodem though if any at all?

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[Nykon]

oh and we all know how well marxism worked out as an applied economic model? *snicker*

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[Shakrai]

She carves doilies out of the flesh of the living, makes mobiles out of their entrails, and bakes their bones into wedding cakes. Fear her, the bringer of doom, lest she varnish her deck chairs in your blood!

Last time I checked she was scheduled to be sentenced on 17 June 2004.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[fatray]

WalMart is not strong arming suppliers--the suppliers don't have to supply WalMart if they don't want to. What WalMart is doing is telling suppliers that they must have low prices and good service, if they are going to remain a supplier. When I say good service in this context it means that you supply the correct quantity, meeting spec, and on time.

My plant supplies WalMart and they suddenly wanted us to supply in (much) more expensive packaging and told us it had to be at the same price as the old packaging. We went to the Wal Mart buyer with the facts of what the new packaging would cost and they were OK with a price increase representing the increased cost. My experience is that they are good business people and they expect their suppliers to be good. If you can't supply quality product on time and at a competitive cost, you won't be a WalMart supplier.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[Shakrai]

This could be cured by distributors like DELL breaking free from Gates' strangle hold and selling Linux on the desktop as well as the server.

It has nothing to do with Gates' strangle hold. That was the only decent part of the settlement that remained IIRC (Microsoft not being able to bully the OEMs). It has everything to do with marketability. Prove that Dell can make money selling desktops loaded with Linux and they will do it.

But who uses Linux right now? Mostly us geeks. Do us geeks buy computers from Dell? Most of the geeks I know (in r/l and on the net) build their own systems and wouldn't be caught dead with an oem box -- laptops usually excluded of course.

Dell and the other OEMs will sell Linux for the masses once the masses prove they will pay for a PC with Linux loaded on it. Not before.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[Jim_Maryland]

Consider that users still buy E-Machines (a cheaply made Win32 system). The systems may not be cutting edge, but a market definitely exist for those who don't want to pay cutting edge prices.

While I see the Java Desktop System as a good start, I am not sure the timing for consumer release is ideal. Certainly these systems will satisfy office application needs, web surfing, and multi-media, but for many consumers, the game titles on the system are important. If I can't get the next release of my favorite video game for JDS, I'm not likely to buy that system. Sun needs to work with the game industry to promote JDS.

I work with Sun hardware/software regularly at work and have met with various levels of Sun staff. Recently I was at a presentation by Sun where I had a chance to talk with a presenter covering the JDS, Solaris x86, and other Sun software. The one real question I pressured on was how is Sun working with hardware vendors to increase driver support. His response boils down to this:

Sun dropped the ball when they didn't promote support of the x86 platform. They now need to regain confidence.

Sun is working with vendors to encourage driver development. In some cases, Sun will create drivers themselves (if vendors won't).

Another interesting point from the presentation was the move to try to have binary compatibility on Solaris SPARC, Solaris x86, and JDS. The presentation wasn't real clear on how they intend to accomplish it.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[Shakrai]

Walmart is the only place I get treated like a customer and not a potential felon.

Until you try to walk out the front door after cashing out in the electronics or jewelry department so you wouldn't have to wait in the lines up front. Then they ask you if they can search your bags and see a receipt and when you refuse (I don't recall checking my civil rights at the door of Wal-Mart) they bully you with threats to call the cops. At which point (if you are a stubborn person who sticks up for your rights like me) you say "Go ahead." Eventually the manager comes out and after some explanation of the concept of civil rights and burden of proof (and a well timed threat to sue them for false arrest if they don't let you leave) they back down.

Go ahead and stop the teenager that you saw stealing makeup on your closed circuit TV system. But I'll be damned if you'll search my bags just because you didn't personally witness me checkout. Besides if I was going to steal something I'd think of something more valuable then chewing gum and a picture frame.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[C10H14N2]

The Machine might be mediocre--much like many of the cheap desktops people are buying. However, a quick spin around the Wal*MART catalog shows that they are pushing the Sun Java Desktop brand along side Lindows and Lycoris. The Windows and No-OS machines they are selling use THE EXACT SAME HARDWARE, except that the Sun version costs $100 less than the Windows install. Sure, you can buy the WinXP box, but they're putting the same machines side-by side and effectively saying "Hey, you just use this for web browsing and email, why pay an extra $100 for the exactly the same machine that does exactly the same thing? Besides, Linux is cool and makes you look smart. You're smart, right?" Ka-ching.

Don't be so quick to write this off. They are truly offering what everyone has been asking for: CHOICE. Hell, I HATE Wal*Mart, but I give 'em kudos for this.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[Anonymous Coward]

"belief in Marxism forced capitalists in the US and Europe into broad concessions in order to preserve their system. That's the only reason that people have a decent standard of living."

It is the other way around. Belief in Marxism has created systems where the well-being of the rulers is paramount. The more Marxist a place has been, the more abject poverty there has been. Marxism has always made governments more oppressive and brought down the standard of living.

"Funny thing is that in 'Communist' China, Marxist ideology is actively repressed so that you can get your $30 slave labor"

Under Marxism, all labor is slave labor (everyone is owned by the state).

"Maybe you should read "Capital" before you snicker at it."

I did. It did a very poor job of describing history and current events, and its predictions are so off-base that of course it is a primer for the worst dictators ever to have fooled people into giving them absolute power.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[petabyte]

Well, yes, I built my own desktop but I can't build my own laptop AFAIK and I like latitudes.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[minektur]

Just got a new Dell optiplex gx270 at work today, and the first thing done to the box was to wipe XP off of it. FreeBSD installed quickly, and now I'm copying over my homedir from the old optiplex gx1 that I've been using as my desktop...

I guess if you are accusing me of being not the normal consumer for these machines, I'll agree, but I am a software developer, I (my company) just bought a dell, and I want nothing to do with XP. If we could have purchased the box without the XP license we would have but we were required to get the license.

I build my home machines, but for work, I take what I can con the IT group into ordering for me - which is 'standard dell minitower' in our internal ordering form.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[Golias]

How do you equate Wal-Mart haggling for better prices with Marxism!? If anything, it's the opposite.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[Moofie]

Who is "we"?

What, do you think there should be some Arbiter of Right who says who gets to use Linux and who doesn't?

You say you have a goal. Why? Why do you care if more people use Linux? If it works for you, use it. If it doesn't, don't.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[Jahf]

If you look at the major Desktop OSes out there (Windows and OSX for now), a VERY large portion of the drivers are not created by the OS vendor, they are created by the hardware vendor.

Do you seriously expect Microsoft or Apple to write your NVidia latest/greatest card driver? No.

How will Linux get to the point where there is better commercial driver support? By getting to the point where it is a major Desktop OS. That won't happen for all distributions, a couple will have to excel and get to the ubiquitous point.

Waitaminute though, half the people seem to argue against closed source drivers ... we are our own barrier in this respect, and I can't honestly expect that hardware vendors will want to open up all of their drivers.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[Golias]

The problem is that they DO destroy small towns. Go to any small town in the South or Midwest. They are all identical, bland wastelands of concrete and Wal-Mart shopping drones.

Unlike the "good old days", when each and every one of those towns had a Wolworth's, a Dairy Queen, two churches (one Catholic, one Protestant), and three bars?

Give me a break. Wal-Mart's arrival might have been bad news for the handful of people in town who owned corner drug stores (which were often Snyder franchises, even if they called themselves "Punytown Drug"), and small shops who were exploiting the monopoly of being the only place within 200 miles who sold hex-key screwdrivers, but it certainly didn't hurt the real hearts of small towns: The antique stores, the bait shops, the upscale boutiques, and the mom-and-pop restaurants. I pass through small towns all the time, and all that stuff is still there... in fact, the small-ish downtowns which have Wal-Marts nearby are often doing better than the ones that don't, because people are driving in from all the one-horse townships to do their shopping, and the towns with Wal-Marts have a lot more to offer.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[gid]

Dell does sell computers that don't require the microsoft tax you know.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[Jahf]

I still run on an 800MHz P3 desktop and a 600Mhz P3 laptop.

Would I like newer hardware sure, but I don't need it.

Maybe this is what Linux needs ... the ability to show that we don't need to have a 2 or 3 GHz box to run a productive desktop. That is a very powerful argument for corporations who care FAR more about having long-term supportable environments than upgrading hardware or software due to the either obsoleting their environment.

Besides, $300 is the first SKU, it goes up to a 3GHz hyperthreaded box. They're just giving a range of choices.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[forrestt]

But who uses Linux right now? Mostly us geeks. Do us[sic] geeks buy computers from Dell? Most of the geeks I know (in r/l and on the net) build their own systems and wouldn't be caught dead with an oem box -- laptops usually excluded of course.

The reason most geeks built their own systems in the past was largely for economic reasons. It was much cheaper to get the parts together and build your own system than it was to buy one pre-built. Secondary to that was knowledge of what components went into the final system (i.e. you could pick higher quality components if you preferred).

Now, due to Dell, HP, and Gateway, neither of these reasons still exist. The computer price wars have left the consumer with a very good quality product for a very reasonable price. The Big Three (mentioned above) have such a strong buying force that they can get the components for their machines and PUT THEM TOGETHER for less than the average person can buy the components. To top it off, their price even includes the OS whereas the average Joe putting together a system wouldn't be able to buy a version of Windows (relax OSS fans, I ONLY use Linux) to put into the box they are building if they wanted to save money over the Big Guys.

Where am I going with this you ask? Well only to say that the reason Dell doesn't sell Linux only PC's is that when they look at what PC's to sell, they fail to consider who the Linux customer is. When they did offer Linux (Red Hat, IIRC) in the past, they did so at a price equal to their Windows offering. Thus, only a complete moron would buy one of these machines.

If I'm looking for a high quality box to run Linux (or pick your favorite OSS OS), I could care less if at one point in time the hard drive held a Microsoft product. If it is a good box, it is a good box. Now, if I am put into a decision to buy a box for X amount of money with Windows, or the same amount without Windows, I'll take the Windows. That way, when I finally decide to give it to charity and take the tax write-off, I'll get more for it. However, since I bought a PC loaded with Windows, I am counted in the "I use Windows" side of the house even though I don't.

I don't think I'm alone in my purchasing thoughts (I know I'm not the only one who understands basic math). So, Dell, et al are left with the idea that Linux isn't a viable OS and drop it instead of realizing that the way they offered Linux to us was flawed.

We are OSS users for a reason. We know how to think for ourselves. We know that the comunity we belong to will be able to resolve any problem we're thrown. We are not easily misled, and we can smell BS a mile away. And as consumers, we are not going to spend our hard earned money on a product simply because it is a small bit more convenient. If we were willing to do that, we would all be using Microsoft!

Now, a note to the Big Three: What we would really like to see from you are PC's WITHOUT an OS at all. That way, you don't have to include any OS specific tech support costs in the price of your machines. Simply have the box come with a diagnostic CD to make sure the hardware functions, and if it doesn't take care of that. Leave OS issues to the buyer, or sell tech support separately.

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[i2878]

The corporate culture at WalMart promotes bullying. As a support engineer for one of their telecom providers, I heard them threaten to walk away from signed contracts 3 times in the course of two months if we would not produce increased service levels - beyond those originally stated (measured and proven) for free. "We are Wal-Mart. Resistance is Futile" Of course, the sales side of the house caved to the pressure. This is not an isolated event...

Re:Why Wal*Mart? Gott in Himmel, why?

[Angry Pixie]

Just a question but, why doesn't HP have a version of Linux? Carly has nothing but good things to say about Lionux, and HP does have the experience and the position to make a great Linux system. just imagine it, hp -linux with full support for all HP hardware! Well, hopefully. I'd hate to see Dell beat HP to the punch.

Mixed feelings about this.

[grub]

This sounds great at first glance but my gut feeling is that most of these units sold will be reformatted with Windows. That's the ugly truth methinks.

Re:Mixed feelings about this.

[AKnightCowboy]

This sounds great at first glance but my gut feeling is that most of these units sold will be reformatted with Windows. That's the ugly truth methinks.

Why would you buy a Walmart PC with Linux on it for $300 and then go out and buy Windows for $150+ when you could just go buy a Dell with Windows XP preloaded on it for under $400? Unless you're planning on a five-finger discount on the Windows license it'd be more to buy a Linux box and put a non-OEM copy of Windows on it.

Re:Mixed feelings about this.

[taradfong]

Hmmm...everyone's dying to put Linux on their X-Boxen, and Windows on their Linux boxen. I guess no one is every happy with their native OS.

Re:Mixed feelings about this.

[Rick Zeman]

Why would you buy a Walmart PC with Linux on it for $300 and then go out and buy Windows for $150+ when you could just go buy a Dell with Windows XP preloaded on it for under $400? Unless you're planning on a five-finger discount on the Windows license it'd be more to buy a Linux box and put a non-OEM copy of Windows on it.

Methinks you answered your own question...

Re:Mixed feelings about this.

[grub]

I wonder if MS-fans cried whenever I bought an e-machine and formatted it as soon as I opened the box?

Likely not. You paid the MS tax on your e-machine before you got it home from the store.

Re:Mixed feelings about this.

[Ralph Yarro]

This sounds great at first glance but my gut feeling is that most of these units sold will be reformatted with Windows.

Yes, it's frightening the lengths people will go to to avoid paying their $699 licensing fee.

Re:Mixed feelings about this.

[FooBarWidget]

Actually it doesn't matter whether that actually happens. The only thing that matters is that the numbers of sold Linux PCs go up! Companies will think "hey, Linux's market share is rising. maybe we should port our apps", regardless of whether people will actually reformat the hd and install a pirated version of Windows.

Re:Mixed feelings about this.

[gilesjuk]

You might already have Windows 2000 which is still a perfectly good OS.

Re:Mixed feelings about this.

[Maestro4k]

• This sounds great at first glance but my gut feeling is that most of these units sold will be reformatted with Windows. That's the ugly truth methinks.

Actually I think you may be wrong. I had the misfortune (ok to be fair at least it was a job and kept me fed) of working at Wal-mart for a year and a half. For much of that time I was in Electronics, and even after I was moved to checkouts the Electronics people were known to call me or bring customers up for me to answer their computer questions. Frankly the vast majority of these people (all your average joe non-techy person) could have cared less what OS they had as long as it WORKED. If the Sun Desktop works well and does the things Average Joe Consumer wants (which are web surfing, E-mail and possibly chat mainly) then the customers likely won't even notice it's not Windows on their computer.

And to be honest (not trying to be mean) most of those Average Joe Consumers couldn't reformat a system and put Windows on it if their lives and the life of their first-born child depended on it. Whatever it comes with will be what it stays with.

Now it will be interesting to see if they pack in restore CDs for them, HP in particular is really bad about forgetting them, even with only a 15 day time-period for in-store returns we took back so many HPs for exchange because of missing restore CDs it wasn't funny. I believe we had more computers stacked in claims than on the sales floor most of the time.

One amusing tidbit I had\ve to mention, wonder how long it'll be before Wal-mart realizes it'll be really easy to take a stylized sun and put their smiley face in the middle.

Re:Mixed feelings about this.

[happyfrogcow]

"boxen" should have made the list of the "most hated buzzwords" poll.

only metrosexuals call their machines boxen.

Re:Mixed feelings about this.

[iotaborg]

Also consider that not many people care when they pirate a copy of windows, thus it becomes cheaper.

Re:Mixed feelings about this.

[taradfong]

I should then also mention that I wrote my post this morning inspired by the next equinoxen while being pulled by muskoxen avoiding toxins and checking my stoxen (stocks-en?) while eating bagles and loxen while speaking with religious orthodoxen about paradoxen.

Re:Mixed feelings about this.

[mahdi13]

Metrosexual male looking to remove Virii from his Boxen that has all the latest BlingBling attached. I've Google'ed for Open Solutions but the Vortal interface conflicted with the Teledildonics.

Re:Mixed feelings about this.

[Wells2k]

Frankly the vast majority of these people (all your average joe non-techy person) could have cared less what OS they had as long as it WORKED. If the Sun Desktop works well and does the things Average Joe Consumer wants (which are web surfing, E-mail and possibly chat mainly) then the customers likely won't even notice it's not Windows on their computer.

One thing I see as being a problem with this is that there are a large number of people out there on AOL. Being on AOL, they are very likely also the ones that will be frequenting the Walmart website and seeing this machine.

What happens when they get this machine home and want to install the AOL software onto it?

Subscription?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does Sun require an annual support subscription for these things, like their enterprise versions?

Because if so, there's going to be a lot of unpatched Linux boxes out there in a year or so.

Re:Subscription?

[Bishop, Martin]

No, in fact, I got a Sun Java Desktop "livecd" thingie with an issue of Linux User & Developer that I bought the other day...haven't really tried it out, but I'm pretty sure it's free

Re:Subscription?

[FattMattP]

haven't really tried it out, but I'm pretty sure it's free

So, in other words you don't know and your post isn't really informative after all. What the poster was asking is if patches are available free of charge without having to get a subscription. The answer is yes but only for one year. You have to register with your serial number before the updater that retrieves the patches will work. A year after registering you must purchase support to continue to receive patches. I was unable to find more details on purchasing support for just getting patches.

Amusing...Walmart puts doubt it itself. :)

[neiffer]

Reading the Walmart page (link in the article, or http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?cat=395 1&dept=3944&product_id=2592736&path=0%3A3944%3A395 1%3A41937%3A86796%3A132690) I finding it amusing that WalMart sells the Sun Linux OS as "the first viable Microsoft Windows alternative." Does this mean that Lindows and Mandrake, sold on other WalMart cheap-PC's isn't a viable alternative?

No floppy?!

[Capt'n Hector]

Because you know that a floppy drive adds hundreds to the manufacturing cost.

Re:No floppy?!

[neiffer]

I am a teacher and I wish more PC's would ship without floppy drives. When my students bring in disks from home (and I sometimes have 150 disks to deal with at a time), 1 in 3 has an error, and another 1 in 5 has a virus. I'd much prefer email or a USB flash drive!

Re:No floppy?!

[silas_moeckel]

Actualy Floppy drives have gotten expensive around $10 a unit in modest quanities. Add the cost of installation and repair and it's 3.33-5% of the total cost of the system why bother?

Re:No floppy?!

[Ralph Yarro]

Because you know that a floppy drive adds hundreds to the manufacturing cost.

How much does it have to add to hit your profits on a $300 item? Say they make a 10% profit, that's $30, say the floppy drive costs $3. Not including the drive would increase profits by 10%. If a 10% increase in profits doesn't sound appealing to you then I'm going to guess that nobody lets you make those sorts of decisions.

Re:No floppy?!

[bmwm3nut]

1 in 5 has a virus. I'd much prefer email or a USB flash drive!

and we all know that viruses can't be tranferred by email or a USB drive. i do agree that floppies are out dated and error prone, but getting rid of floppies isn't going to stop kids bringing in viruses.

Re:No floppy?!

[polyp2000]

Anyway even if this Linux based Wal-Mart PC did have an internal floppy drive the likelihood of it providing a breeding ground for spreading viruses is rather slim to say the least.

WalMart Link and Accessories They Recommend

[Johnny_Law]

Here is a direct link to the computer on Walmart.com and their description of the OS.

Sun has delivered the first viable Microsoft Windows alternative. The Java desktop system is a more affordable, secure desktop, designed to thrive in a Windows-centric world and run thousands of Java technology-based applications.

And here is the link to the accessory they recommend for this item (guess who).

I don't know whether this is informative or humorous. I chuckled and shook my head at the same time.

Re:WalMart Link and Accessories They Recommend

[DrEldarion]

Like it or not, Microsoft hardware is not only good and reliable, but if something DOES go wrong with it, they have an absolutely incredible replacement program (replacing products even after the warranty is over with no questions asked).

I have a MS keyboard and two Intellimouse Explorers and couldn't be happier with them. In my opinion, the original Intellimouse Explorer is the perfect mouse.

Walmart is just suggesting a good piece of hardware to go along with the computer they sell.

Repeat after me, Slashdot: Just because it's Microsoft doesn't necessarily mean it's bad.

Accessories We Recommend for This Item

[karmaflux]

Microsoft Trackball Optical

HAHAHAHAHAH

What's so 'Java' about it?

[taradfong]

From what I understand, It's a Linux system, running a modified Gnome with some extra nicely well done integration with Java's runtime. I think more accurately it should be called the 'C' desktop.

I wonder if it's bundled with 'digital ready' speakers.

Re:What's so 'Java' about it?

[KillerHamster]

And is it "Internet Ready?"

Re:What's so 'Java' about it?

[Otter]

From the Sun rep:

We also have some 500 pilots of our Java Desktop System and the Java Enterprise System now running across the world...

They're certainly eager to encourage confusion of the Java Desktop with Java, aren't they? The article has a number of statements like that.

(The Java Enterprise System _does_ have something to do with Java, doesn't it? I went to their site but couldn't get one shred of meaningful information from it. Also, if I were them, I'd be less enthuisiastic about bragging about the role of their software in the Athens Olympics. It may not turn out to be the publicity windfall they want, the way that's shaping up.)

Re:What's so 'Java' about it?

[shadewind]

I think you have just picked up the question nobody really knows the answer to :)

Re:What's so 'Java' about it?

[An dochasac]

Sun is probably best-known as "the creator of Java." In what alternate Universe? That is a problem isn't it? Very few people realize that:

• Sun Invented Java Microsoft did not invent windows or dos. Microsoft uses .NET as a marketing term but they had nothing to do with the invention of the
• net.

Re:What's so 'Java' about it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends on the ISP. Some, in the UK at least, such as Freeserve, don't let you use anything other than Windows, and perhaps an apple OS apparantly. But not Linux.

This is true, whenever a customer signs up for a freeserve account a private detective is sent around to check out what OS they're using. If they catch someone using Linux they shoot them dead. Happened to a friend of mine.

Re:What's so 'Java' about it?

[JohnnyCannuk]

Well, apart from the obvious marketing ploy by Sun, it does come with the latest J2SE installed by default and even has some GUI apps that are Java-based rather than C/Gnome based. How many other distros and os can claim that, apart from OSX. I've purused the demo CD and I think it's a pretty sweet system.

Hey and just for fun, poke through and see if you can find the apps that are Swing based...

Re:What's so 'Java' about it?

[Doctor_D]

The Java Enterprise System _does_ have something to do with Java, doesn't it?

Yes, the Java Enterprise System does indeed have something to do with Java, namely the App Server, but it includes other things, as shown by the quote from the datasheet

The core set of the enterprise network services that the Java Enterprise System delivers are: Network Identity, Web and Application, Portal, Communications and Collaboration, Availability, and Security services.

So, namely the JES (for short) is the collection of server services that used to be called SunONE, and before that was iPlanet and so on. The cool thing is that this is integrating the software stack and simplifying Sun's software offerings.

Now, JDS (Jave Desktop System) also has something to do with Java, namely the JRE. It also has several Java apps integrated into it, as well as a consistent look & feel with GNOME, Evolution, Mozilla, and the Java apps. Otherwise JDS is simply Linux with "some tweaks" as others have stated here on /. .

As far as the naming goes--blame marketing.

Disclaimer: Yes, I work for Sun.

link to systems

[Triumph The Insult C]

here you go

as low as $288

Re:link to systems

[spuke4000]

Those systems seem to be Lindows based. Here's a link to the Sun Java Desktop based systems. Seems the lowest price is $298.

More details here

[kiwimate]

clicky

Re:Who buys a PC at wallmart?

[neiffer]

If the goal is Linux to the masses, I'm sad to report that the masses are at Walmart.

What Walmart has to say about this computer....

[kidgenius]

From Walmart's website:

"Sun has delivered the first viable Microsoft Windows alternative. The Java desktop system is a more affordable, secure desktop, designed to thrive in a Windows-centric world and run thousands of Java technology-based applications."

It goes on and on, including mentioning that it comes with StarOffice, it can exchange files with MS Office, it isn't prone to viruses, etc. They really are doing a good job at selling this to the average person and letting them know that there is a pretty viable option to Windows (other than mac of course)

Walmart

[mostlyalmighty]

But does it run Windows?

Re:Wal-Mart Sells PCs Preloaded With Sun's Linux

[TheFairElf]

Its been around for a while, I like its clean look. Here's more info

Oh nooo

[Knight Thrasher]

*groans* Now customers are going to call me... "How do I set up my server?" - "Sir, where did you get that server? HP? IBM?" - "Wal-mart!"

PC support

[Anonymous Coward]

I can see it now
"Hello AOL internet support, how can I help you?"

"I just bought this PC from wallmart and I can't check my mail"

Re:PC support

[Araneas]

This could be a good thing. AOL forced to support linux.

JDS

[nelsonal]

The Java Desktop is a subscriber product did Wal~Mart get a discount due to expected volume or does the end user have to pay an annual maintenance fee for updates. IIRC it was $50-$100 per year depending on if you got it during the big sale (possibly still in progress). Having to pay that sort of maintenece costs would seem to push users toward Mandrake.
I'm actually curious because I had the same idea, but didn't investigate it far enough to see if SUN was willing to cut OEM customers a break. It would be nice to advertise a SUN operating system that everyone is hearing so much about rather than the scary (to small customers) Linux.

Re:JDS

[JohnnyCannuk]

Nope.

The Java Enterprise System is subscription based. The Java Desktop System is a pay once model - about $70 USD I believe. And since it's based on SUSE, you can then upgrade however you want (or know how to do). Or you can wait until the next version of the JDS come out. Or you can wait until Looking Glass come out and upgrade then.

This is really no different that the Windows boxes the sell. What's better, Linux on the desktop will get MASSIVE penetration thanks to Walmart. It will be pre-loaded so Linux will have the advantage that Windows has. It will be easy to use, familiar and much safer than Windows. It might be Linux with training wheels, but it's still Linux.

Personally, I think this is a brilliant move by Sun. First the sell JDS to China and manay other countries, then they make it available as a powerful, yet cost effective alternative to Windows for average folks running low-end hardware. Certainly a good way to win the hearts and minds of the regualr, non-technical folks out there.

BTW, the JDS is very easy to use. Our head of sales uses it and it HE can use it, anyone can.

Linux on the shelves

[semper_james]

So, does this mean that wal*mart is going to start stocking software for linux as well? Or just the cool windows games as usual?

Walmart equals a win for linux

[192939495969798999]

This is a genius price, and wal-mart's massive distribution capabilities could easily push the desktop market dramatically in the direction of linux. How large is wal-mart? Let me give an example. There's the story of the local piemaker who won a contract with wal-mart to sell his pies. Wal-mart ordered 10,000 TRUCKLOADS of pies! If they can do that kinda volume on the linux machines, Microsoft's in for a ride. Fortune 500: Microsoft = #46, Walmart = #1. Walmart wins!
In other news, see my artist interview at fulcrum gallery.

Re:Walmart equals a win for linux

[SparafucileMan]

Yes, Wal-mart is the Big Dog. A story: You may remember Rome, the Empire, who had to give away food to all of Rome, the city, in order to keep them happy. They ended up deforesting and gutting most of northern Africa to do so, turning it into a far larger desert than previous. I compare Wal-Mart to that process: cheap as shit goods, but it's for the masses of the newest and greatest empire, which goes a long way to explaining why it's #1 in the Fortune 500. Do not fuck with Wal-Mart. They are king. Now, in other news, I just found a quote u may find interesting:

...a recent study by McKinsey, a consultancy, credited efficiencies in retailing (mainly Wal-Mart's) for more of America's recent productivity spurt than technology investment.

Bad Idea.

[Doches]

My friend has a machine from Wal-Mart, and I'm reasonably sure that he couldn't run Linux to save his life. Most Wal-Mart PC customers aren't going to be comfortable with that kind of power. After all, these are (more-or-less!) the dregs of the technology world; people so far from the bleeding-edge that...I mean, they buy PC's at Wal-Mart. The only effect this is going to have is to expand our reputation for making geek-use-only software. And, of course, boost Dell sales.

Re:Bad Idea.

[rihock]

I disagree. You now have two basic (non-tech) users- gamers and browser/shoppers. For the gamers the system isn't what they want- they'll beuild the overclocked AMD system from parts bought wherever. They may install Linux, but mostly likely it'll be windows.

For the browser/shopper the Linux box is almost ideal- no viruses, no un-necessary software and they can type letters, browse the internet and listen to streaming radio. It's all my Mother does and she's on Linux.

So if she can use it (and she's really not technical) then most people should get by.

Ich hab' eine Idee...

[sczimme]

Selling *anything* at WallyWorld practically guarantees broad exposure in markets that a vendor might not otherwise reach. Imagine if - years ago - you could have walked into [that store] and picked up an Ultra 10. I use the U10 as an example because it is/was essentially a low-end, mass-marketed (sort of) item from the Sun line. Wal-mart would be unlikely to carry the Ultra 60 just like they are unlikely to carry gigantic plasma TVs: the clientele probably are not the ones to buy high-end merchandise (or at least not buy it there).

PS Microtel makes very, very small communications devices. You're welcome. :-)

Re:Who buys a PC at wallmart?

[SparafucileMan]

In case you've missed out of the past decade or two, Wal-Mart is the largest retailer in the WORLD. It happens to be the largest employer in most U.S. states. Revenue-wise it is one of the biggest companies in the world. Do not mess with Wal-Mart. They're as big as it gets, and anything sold there basically makes its owners bizillions if for no other reason than pure volume (i.e., sales). This move by Sun has EVERYTHING to do with sales.

Sound of music in this?

[person-0.9a]

Wal-mart selling another distro of linux on "their" PC's. That's kinda nifty, but it does make one ask the question:
Could this mean they'll get a clue and make their music store compatible with the computing systems they sell?

(Perhaps maybe around the time when we see Mac OS X run natively on a Microtel PC).

Re:MS Reaction

[ErichTheWebGuy]

MS probably won't do anything. If they were to do anything, they would have done it when Wal-Mart started selling computers with Lindows on them (reference the MS v. Lindows lawsuit). I have bought a few of the Lindows computers, just cuz they are cheap hardware. I don't care for lindows, I throw Mandrake on em and they run great.

Price went up?

[dzeanah]

I just had a client order a PC from Walmart 3 weeks ago, and I thought the cost (with Lindows, not the Sun offering) was more like $215, though that was with 64M RAM. I thought it was $265 after shipping.

Oh well. Still better than paying the Microsoft tax.

Got Root?

[loveisafist]

So, let me take a guess and assume that the primary user is running with root level permissions? That may not be a good thing given 99% of the people who would buy a PC at Wal-Mart probably can't manage/secure their Windows based PC let alone a Linux box.

Re:Got Root?

[Get Behind the Mule]

So, let me take a guess and assume that the primary user is running with root level permissions?

No, you guessed wrong. Well, I suppose you can't prevent a naive user from doing this, but JDS is based on SuSE, and SuSE requires you to define a non-root user at install time, telling you noisily that this is the account you should be using most of the time. So chances are good that most novice users will end up doing the right thing (it seems to work for SuSE, at any rate).

Re:Floppy

[sahonen]

I think USB keydrives are the floppy of the future, though admittedly they are really expensive.

What you're missing

[karmaflux]

is the fact that you can't walk in to Wal-Mart and pick one of these up. They're only available online.

Heard good things

[Anonymous Coward]

I've heard really good things about Sun's Java Desktop Linux. If it's based on SuSE (9.0 is so !@#$ sweet it's not even funny), it's gotta be good. I've considered purchasing the $50 discount copy, but I still wonder what their server strategy is. I actually prefer linux on the server to solaris for a lot of reasons, as I don't do anything high level enough to require a sparc. I want an end to end solution, and Sun is making it difficult.

Basically, I like the idea of using the same distribution for the server and my desktop. I can install SuSE on everything from my desktop to the Dell blade servers that I install, and it just works. This is very appealing, since I can become familiar with the environment by using it on my desktop in addition to the server.

When I went to price out one of Sun's new AMD systems, I was somewhat disappointed. First of all, the website does not give the level of detail that Dell's does. I want to know everything about the system from ram speed, to hd speed, to bus speed, etc. Then, I want much more ability to configure scsi, ide, raid levels, etc. On top of that, it was pretty expensive. You can get a dual xeon dell with 2GB of ram, 15K rpm scsi for about $1,000 less than a bare bones sun with an amd chip. For what it's worth, IBM is much worse in this regard when pricing any of their systems online. I think they're even more expensive and the website sucks way more.

Then, you have the option basically for solaris x86 (32 bit) or supplying your own SuSE 64 bit (community edition, whatever that means), or RedHat enterprise.

My conclusion is that Sun is still not going after the low end. I don't know if they just can't get the economies of scale or what, but don't sell an entry level server and pretend that you're going to offer a "premium" entry level server when the website is worse, you have fewer config options, and the price is way more than can be justified.

That said, I hope they read this stuff and adapt. How hard can it be to provide an entry level server when plenty of white box places do it even cheaper than Dell??? I can't even imagine what you get for the premium price tag.

Still, I would love the idea if they gave me a Java Server system with Linux on the bottom of the stack with Java completely installed, configured, and supported, and the option for the Java Enterprise system on top of it. What's with their affinity for Solaris, especially on the low end servers? Even if it's better in some regards, it's not as familiar, performs worse, is difficult to get app support for, etc. Give me the real deal please, which for me is Linux.

Re:Heard good things

[illumin8]

When I went to price out one of Sun's new AMD systems, I was somewhat disappointed. First of all, the website does not give the level of detail that Dell's does. I want to know everything about the system from ram speed, to hd speed, to bus speed, etc. Then, I want much more ability to configure scsi, ide, raid levels, etc. On top of that, it was pretty expensive. You can get a dual xeon dell with 2GB of ram, 15K rpm scsi for about $1,000 less than a bare bones sun with an amd chip. For what it's worth, IBM is much worse in this regard when pricing any of their systems online. I think they're even more expensive and the website sucks way more.

First of all, you must not have looked very hard, because if you go to the main SunFire V20z server page and click on the Datasheet link halfway down the page, you get all of the specs you could ever want, including RAM speed and hard drive speed.

Second of all, on the price issue: You're not comparing Apples to Apples if you compare it with a Xeon server. Xeon is only a 32-bit architecture, which is severely memory bandwidth starved, as all processors in the system share the same paltry 533-mhz. memory bus. AMD's Hypertransport gives each processor dedicated channels to accesss memory with. Not only that, you're getting a full 64-bit machine, which runs circles around similarly equipped Xeons. If you don't believe me, Tom's Hardware recently did a comparison between dual and quad servers running Opteron and Xeon processors, and the Opterons ate the Xeons for lunch. I can't seem to find the exact link to the article, but it was posted on Slashdot a little while back.

Third, anyone who has purchased Sun hardware before knows that the price listed on the web is the "suggested retail price", and that you should call a local Sun reseller to get a much better price.

After you've gotten a real price, compare the two and I think you'll be surprised to see the Sun is actually cheaper than the Dell. On their low-end servers Sun has actually reached price parity and even beats Dell on most similar configurations. This is something that not a lot of Dell customers are even aware of, since most of them don't purchase Sun on a regular basis.

So, your purchasing choice really comes down to a support question:

Do you want Dell to provide your hardware support, and purchase Linux support from a third-party vendor like Red Hat with their Advanced Server package? (Be sure to add that $1500 license fee into the cost of your server)

-or-

Do you want Sun to be your one stop shop for both hardware and software support, freeing you up to do your job and not having to worry about the whole hardware vs. software support issue?

I think if you actually priced in all the support costs the Sun box actually ends up giving you a lower TCO. Most Sun Enterprise customers know this, and prefer to have just one vendor to call when anything goes wrong.

Re:Amusing...Walmart puts doubt it itself. :)

[GileadGreene]

Actually, the tagline "the first viable Microsoft Windows alternative" originates with Sun, not with Walmart. Check out Sun's JDS webpage - the very first line includes the "first viable Microsoft Windows alternative" phrase.

Try pricewatch.com

[MrPoopyPants]

OK, skip walmart and go here, buy your system, and download/purchase your favorite distro and install. It seems there are some even better systems for less than the Wal-Mart price.

Sun as the biggest Linux vendor.

[ron_ivi]

"Selling *anything* at WallyWorld practically guarantees broad exposure in markets "

I think Sun is serious about becoming the biggest Linux vendor, as they suggested a year ago with their china deal where McNealy said "This, I believe, makes us instantaneously the number one Linux desktop play in the planet."

If they're going for volume, you can't beat Wal*Mart and China.

Re:Sun as the biggest Linux vendor.

[Jahf]

I'll disclaim this by saying I work for Sun on the Java Desktop System.

That said, it is more likely that if Sun ever reached a monopoly in place of Windows they would -open source- Java than start charging for it. 1) to avoid anti-trust issues and 2) to endear themselves further.

The reason Sun doesn't open it is because it would immediately be abused, forked and made trivial by the existing monopolistic folks. It would be another case of a bastardized JVM that polluted the development story for Java.

Seriously, it took Sun and Microsoft years to fight that battle ... and the only reason Sun "won" was because it owned Java outright. Any license that would make the Open Source community 100% happy would also lessen Sun's ability to protect Java. Remember Microsoft claiming that the GPL was viral? Microsoft would love nothing better than to have that working -for- them.

Does Sun want the power you mention? What company doesn't? And it would corrupt Sun just like it did Microsoft. But until that becomes an issue it is better for MS's competition if Java stays as is.

Re:Sun as the biggest Linux vendor.

[ron_ivi]

"The reason Sun doesn't open it is because it would immediately be abused, forked and made trivial by the existing monopolistic folks. "

Really? Then why don't you see the existing monopolistic folks bastardizing Python, or Perl, or gcc, or the Linux kernel, or sendmail, or apache, or mysql?

I'm not trying to flame you, I'm genuinely curious what makes Java different in that regard.

Re:Sun as the biggest Linux vendor.

[nelsonal]

Unlike Perl Python and the others Java scared the crap out of MS management about the time of the adoption of the internet. They are smart enough to know that the reason Windows sells so well is that there are huge network effects (the system becomes more valuable the more users you have) to operating systems. ie developers write for the platform that has the most potential users and users choose the platform with the most software. MS figured this out early and ran with it. They saw Java as a new platform that didn't care what you ran underneath it (Windows, Solaris, MacOS) they all run Java progams fine. Taken to it's extreme it means the OS is merely an interface between Java programs and hardware (since Java would be the method of software delivery users would choose the cheapest OS that enabled Java or the one that ran it best, SUN). MS obviously didn't want this to occur without a good fight so they purposely broke the Java standard with their own Java VM that added a bunch of features specific to Windows. This meant that there were effectivly two types of Java SUN's and MS's and software written for MS Java wouldn't work on SUN's JVM. Since MS could easily bring hundreds of millions of users to their JVM they won that battle. That's a big reason why they got into the last round of anti-trust hot water both here and in Europe. The browser wars would have been better termed the JAVA wars. It's also why SUN has been on a Quixotic quest to destroy MS's monopoly.

Re:Sun as the biggest Linux vendor.

[Jahf]

In addition to the reply you've already gotten, because those technologies were not created, nurtured and depended upon by any one commercial entity.

Sun created Java and has a significant stake in it's success ... it is more in Microsoft's (IBM as well) interested to undermine it than it would be for them to go after any of the other items. If anyone were to fork gcc, python, perl or whatnot they would have no effect on Microsoft or Sun.

In the case of Java, though, Microsoft has the ability to push out to a HUGE install base (how many microsoft users would ever think about installing any of the other items you mentioned). If Python or Perl or Sendmail, etc ever became items that were useful to the end user, I think you very likely -would- see MS "embracing" their own versions.

Listen, I'm not saying that Java wouldn't be more ubiquitous if it were open sourced, but that is only one factor in the equation.

Besides as a commercial product I think it would be harder to find a more fractured product than the Linux kernel. Each distribution uses slightly different versions and that often requires device drivers and services to be compiled specifically for each and every commercial distribution. That has continually hampered Linux adoption in business. Very much what Sun is trying not to have happen to Java.

Re:useless hardware

[hopemafia]

Better yet, why not find your local geek and get the leftover parts from two upgrades ago.... I'm sure most slashdotters could build a couple of these machines from their spare parts drawer.

What about Sam's Club?

[b12arr0]

Does that mean we'll see them in a bulk pack of 5 for only $1000 at Sams? Sweet! When I get my 10000 pack of Ramen Noodles, I can get a pack of Linux computers too. Yeah-Hoo!

Must... Not... Defend... Walmart...

[cgenman]

Walmart.com actually has had a lot of options in terms of pre-loaded OS's. They come / have come with Windows, Lindows, Lycoris, Mandrake, Sun Java Desktop, and FreeDOS. Or you can get them naked.

True, all of these are cheaper than Windows (except for, of course, Windows), but if all Walmart was interested in was being Cheap, they would all be using Lindows (remember flat rate licensing?). The inclusion of Lycoris and Sun Java Desktop is an indication that they see value in having a variety of Linux desktops available.

Now, it may very well be that they simply contract out through individual companies, so that if someone wants to sell a Lycoris desktop through Walmart.com it presents no risk to Walmart, but that doesn't mean Walmart is inherently exploitive.*

*on this particular issue.

Re:Must... Not... Defend... Walmart...

[cgenman]

when did they offer FreeDOS boxes?

A while back Microsoft decided to forbid the sale of boxes without an OS. Walmart in turn decided the best way to get around this was to sell boxes with a copy of FreeDOS on a floppy. Microsoft relented.

It's nice when an evil monopolistic 900 lb gorilla gets beaten down by another evil monopolistic 900 lb gorilla. It's like that Godzilla vs Gamara movie, except that we like Godzilla and Gamara.

Re:Must... Not... Defend... Walmart...

[Unixfreak31]

Hi just to make a clear point about wal-mart sub contracting the used to do this at least. My company used to build sub quality pcchips systems (different owners) for wal-mart 100's a day untill wal-mart burnt us on like 100k dollars and almost put us out of buisness. We sold the system with no os for 499 back in 99 so we offered the lowest prices thats why they did it not because of a name or brand or anything.

Walmart allways wins, So what?

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

By your logic, Because walmart always wins ( and believe me I agree 100%), ANY PRODUCT they sell will defeat their competing products. Ok, Walmart sells coke, therefore Walmart will crush pepsi. Walmart also sells Pepsi, therefore Walmart will crush Coke. So who wins? Sams Choice Cola.

Walmart likes to help its vendors... at first. They worked exclusively with Tide to see if they could reducce their operating costs. Great, Tide now operated more efficently as a compnay. Then Walmart introduced Great Value Liquid Clothes detergent (compare with Tide!). Walmart might be working with Sun, but noting that they are essentially just selling a free OS, Its just a mater of time before Walmart introduces the even lower cost Great Value Linux . It will happen, believe you me.

Re:Who buys a PC at wallmart?

[Maestro4k]

• What's up with everyone wanting to put their linux stuff in walmart? Does it actually amount to sales? My guess is that having something to sell in Wallmart is more about PR than sales.

Wal-mart appears to not be very pro-windows, their back-end systems all appear to be Unix or a linux/bsd-based variant. In fact the handheld units on the floor run a version of linux (watching them do a reload is entertaining actually). Wal-mart has also been pushing towards this for quite a while, they want things at the lowest price to pass along savings. Right now in low-end PCs the single largest cost factor is the OS when you have Windows. These systems are fairly comparable to the $499 systems they've had from HP & eMachines, but the only real difference is the OS and they're over $200 cheaper each! Business-wise, especially for Wal-mart buy cheap then pass along savings business plan, going with a non-Windows based PC is a no-brainer.

Learning curve...

[Doches]

Sorry, I did not intend my earlier comment for flamebait. But I still believe that Linux is not suitable for people being introduced for the first time. With windows or macintosh, a non tech-savvy user can modify settings, install/uninstall software, and manage devices (cameras, scanners, etc) with friendly wizards. Linux, while it has made great steps in this direction, can't be as user-friendly as OS X. If these browser/shoppers could have a little training, this would be great for linux. But I think dropping machines with Linux on unsuspecting moms and families is a bad idea.

Hmm

[TheSpoom]

There are going to be a lot of systems out there with root passwords of "password" soon ;^)

Close, but...

[blogboy]

The only people who would buy a non-MS PC are relatively technically competent ("enough to be dangerous"), and the majority of these folks should be smart enough to know what a bad deal this is--you can piece together a much better system for the same $$$. Hello, eBay? So the target audience is...?

Re:Close, but...

[JohnnyCannuk]

Wrong.

People who shop at Walmart will buy and use whatever PC is cheap and gets them on the Internet-thingy and lets them do e-mail. They could care less about Microsoft, Open source, Sun or ESR.

Remember, these are the people that think "Microsoft Windows" is their word processor...they don't know what an operating system is. The can, however, tell the difference between having to pay $350 (for Word) and $0 (for OpenOffice.org/StarOffice, included in the JDS) or having to pay $150 (for a Windows upgrade down the road) and $0 to $70 (for an upgrade of Linux/JDS when they want it).

And when their kids grow up, which OS do you think they'll use and trust?

Mono-Poly

[acarrig]

Linux = Anti-Monopoly Walmart = Attempting a Monopoly Why Sun..... Wwwwwhhhhhhyyyyyy???

On your first WalMart PC service call

[WormholeFiend]

you might notice the following:

The PC is up on blocks.
The case has a shotgun rack
The customer wears a wife-beater shirt with a penguin on the front.
There are dipstick oil marks on the floppy drive.
The hard drive is full of Johnny Cash MP3s.
The case is modded with a transparent confederate flag window.
The mousepad is red and black plaid.
Traces of pig feces on the keyboard.
The open source internet browser default page is www.y'all.com.
The USB port cover panel is welded shut.
The wallpaper on the desktop is of a scanned black velvet Elvis painting.
The case has a side-mounted spitoon.
The customer added an 8-track tape player in one of the drive bays.
There are John Deer stickers on the case.
-

It's profit, and support.

[khasim]

I believe you are correct about the profits portion of the equation. But you forgot to include the support costs of floppies.

There are a limited number of moving parts in those computers. A floppy drive is a moving part and the only one (other than the CD) that the user is expected to jam things into.

Not including it does boost profits.
-and-
Not including it means one less thing that is likely to break and result in a phone call and/or replacement.

When you're looking at profits that small per unit, you do NOT want to waste any of it on a support call because someone jammed a floppy disk in upside down or put in a floppy with a bent metal slide.

Dell Poweredge Server

[vwjeff]

What's the big deal here. If you go to Dell.com and click on Small Business you can get a Poweredge server for $279 with the following components:

Intel P4 2.4 Ghz
40 GB Hard Drive
128 MB Memory
Floppy Drive
48x CD-ROM

($379-$100 mail in rebate) I hate mail in rebates!!!!

This is basically a low-end desktop with no OS. Load your favorite distro and there you go!!

I think it's great that a company is selling computers preloaded with Linux but this really isn't news.

Good for standard PC uses

[hattig]

I don't know what the Sun Java Desktop is like personally, but it is probably pretty good - Gnome and StarOffice and all that jazz.

As such it should handle what most people use a PC for pretty well - internet, e-mail, chatting, letter to the bank manager.

You don't need Windows XP for these tasks.

Now the price is a bit high given the hardware - you could build the same for a lot less, but Walmart will be making a slice and Sun will be too I imagine.

And these boxes will be faster than 2.8GHz Celeron boxes judging from reviews online.

I have bought a boat load of these things

[codepunk]

Man I have bought a bunch of these boxes. I normally buy the cheap 200 dollar not loaded model and throw fedora core on them and give them to our customers. In the two years now of running them I only had one that had the power supply give up the smoke. For non power users that just want to surf the web and do a occasional spread sheet the box is more than fast enough.

Re:Gog vs Magog!

[scotch]

I hereby nominate you for the most-useless-use-of-a-footnote award.

It's not that prominent

[Animats]

For about a month last year, WalMart featured the Linux PCs more prominently than Windows PCs. They aren't doing that now. They were heavily pressuring Microsoft for price cuts, and they may have obtained some.

More interesting is that WalMart is preloading OpenOffice on their low-end Windows PCs. That's will accelerate OpenOffice deployment. Lots of kids are going to be doing their book reports on OpenOffice.

wal-mart is about what works

[decsnake]

wal-mart got to be #1 by doing things better, faster, and cheaper than their competition.

Wal-mart's original website was a horrible mess of asp on a all MS platform. They replaced it with a linux front end after a very short time. It was big news at the time but is probably pre-history for the average /.er

joel

Walmart's bigger than Microsoft

[nycsubway]

If there is one company that can stand up to Microsoft and sell the OS that they want, it's WalMart.

The other computer OEMs haven't done it. They're not big enough to say "screw you, MS, were not paying $100/license"

WalMart is extremely interested in delivering the lowest price to their consumers, and removing the Microsoft OS is one way to do it.

These Microtels are NOISY

[bshroyer]

A solid piece of hardware - I now have three operating in various capacities around the house - but noisy like you wouldn't believe. I've become accustomed to some minimal amount of acoustic engineering going into boxes these days -- all of the name brand boxes have an average (low) amount of noise. Not so with the Microtel. The power supply has a whoosh to it, and the CPU fan a bit of a low whir. You may be able to remedy this with a replacement low-noise PS.

Not bad for under $300, but, as always, you get what you pay for.

Why don't we have boxes with external (fanless - noiseless) power supplies? Everything that goes on inside the box is low voltage DC, right?

Re:These Microtels are NOISY

[EisPick]

Righto. I've bought two Microtels boxes over the last year. They're nicely put together in a steel case that gives you easy access to RAM, disk bays, etc. (unlike the plastic Rubik's Cube of an HP they sit next to). Peformance has been better than expected for the price -- with the exception of that danged noisy fan.

Overall, a lot of bang for 300 bucks.

Re:Who buys a PC at wallmart?

[MidKnight]

What's up with everyone wanting to put their linux stuff in walmart?

If I had to guess, it's because Wal-Mart is the only retail outlet that a certain monopolist can't bully. The reason Linux OS's are showing up there is that Wal-Mart doesn't care if they piss off the folks in Redmond.

--Mid

Re:The small towns destroy themselves

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, and I don't know if you noticed, but the kind of people who shop at Wal-Mart are the dregs of society.

The clientele is really just about everybody. However, you are contradicting yourself now. If what you say really were true, you would want a Wal-Mart, as it would draw only the "Dregs" out of your downtown, right?

That's not wanted in our town

Which town is it? I would bet you that your claim is not true. Everywhere Wal-Mart goes in over the objections of tiny mindless activist groups, the customers and workers flock there, proving it is wanted and that the so-called community activists were lying all along.

If it really isn't wanted, why not let it open? You'd prove a great point as this unwanted store closes within 5 months

(...but you and I know it would be quite popular, and your town would love it)

Instead of a night out shopping for cheap plastic shit made in Asia that we don't need,

Actually, people guy stuff at Wal-Mart because they have actual need for it. It is the good name-brand stuff as well. Sony is made in Asia, but it has a good reputation.

Re:You are a guest there

[Shakrai]

You are a guest there; if you do not like it, dont go there. I, for one, have no problem at all with them checking my Wal-Mart bags. Shoplifting does happen, a lot. Your civil rights are not being violated; your right to steal might be.

Really? So if you are a guest in my home that means I can require you to undertake a cavity search when you leave to make sure you didn't steal anything?

As if the closed circuit TV systems that monitor every square inch of the store aren't enough. Let's stop someone walking out of the store with a pack of chewing gum and a picture frame in his tiny little blue Wal-Mart bag to make sure he didn't steal anything!

My civil rights are violated if they ask to search my belongings to make sure I didn't steal anything. If they caught me on camera doing it then fine -- call the cops. But Wal-Mart employees don't have the power to require me to submit my items for inspection or to require me to remain there until the cops arrive. I'm sorry but that blue overcoat and smiley face t-shirt doesn't give you arrest powers.

Re:Eating Own Dogfood Test?

[illumin8]

I'd expect some of the technology worker bees and programmers not to have much difficulty moving to something like this, but how about further up Sun's management hierachy that lives and breathes things like Excel spreadsheets and Powerpoint presentations?

I hate to burst your bubble, but having worked for Sun for the last 2 years, I can tell you that Sun does a pretty good job of keeping their own employees using Sun software. This includes Star Office and Solaris. Most Sun offices use SunRay terminals hooked to a Sun Enterprise server. They run StarOffice 7 on top of Solaris 9. This makes it pretty easy for a Mac geek like me to open work documents using OpenOffice on OS X. In fact, up until very recently it was a fireable offence to even install Windows XP on any work computer. They were pretty worried about all of the privacy issues in XP and didn't want MS stealing corporate secrets through some unknown backdoor. Now, they allow you to run XP only if you run some script called XP Neuter first.

If anything, things are the other way around here, simply because of the NIH (not invented here) syndrome. Sun employees tend to be extremely anti-MS and anti-IBM, and most would not run MS Office or even Internet Explorer unless they were forced to by some management directive.

About the Java Desktop rollout: I can't speak for those in large Sun offices like Broomfield, CO and Burlington, MA; they may be running it already, but out in the small field offices it hasn't been rolled out yet. I haven't had a chance to preview it yet with the LiveCD thingy, but I would imagine within a year or so everyone will be running it.

Sun Java Desktop's package management

[bmzf]

Does anyone know what kind of package management the Java Desktop uses?

Re:Sun Java Desktop's package management

[EvilAlien]

Sun's Java Desktop Linux distribution is SuSE 8.something with Sun logos. YaST, RPM, no little green chameleon. Format, install SuSE 9.1 with kernel 2.6 once it is released.

Re:Walmart allways wins, So what?

[Just Some Guy]

Otherwise, you can slap Debian on there.

Even then, you're paying for the "slap" step. Who decides what packages get included by default? What version of Debian? KDE or Gnome? Which default web browser? Which default mail program? Does the shipped kernel provide full support for every bit of hardware on the system?

Then, you have to pay someone to regression-test new packages and security updates to be reasonably sure that pushing a bugfix to your customers won't result in tens of thousands of disabled machines.

I assume you've heard the phrase "Linux is only free if your time is worth nothing", and in the corporate environment, this is very true: payroll time is, in fact, not very cheap at all. The question is whether Wal-Mart could get the per-unit costs of a home-rolled distribution to be lower than what Sun can offer, and as Wal-Mart isn't in the business of producing software for external clients, that very well may not be the case.

And a decent Linux hacker can roll a simple distro fairly quick 'n' cheap, by basing it off of another distro.

That hacker is wonderful and cost effective if he happens to be you, or if he works for your company and you can have him fix problems on-site as they occur. That same hacker is not useful in the situation where he's building a release that will run on (hopefully) millions of customers' desktops. In that case, you want an engineering team to design a system, then hand it of to a QA team that does their best to break it.

Re:Wintel is cheap and disposable

[Jahf]

Show us the numbers. I have spoken with people who OEM Windows and their cost is well over $50, often over $150 if they want to bundle Office.

The cost of a Linux distro for an OEM is generally in the $5 to $50 range depending on volume and support options.

For an OEM that is a HUGE difference. In the case of Windows+MS Office versus Linux+(Open|Star)Office it will be the difference between a $248 (whitebox), $298 (linux whitebox) and a $348 (windows whitebox) machine. Prices straight from comparing Wal-Mart.com's various SKUs

If someone is shopping for a machine that low cost, you better believe that a 15% difference is going to make a difference if they need an OS.

People buy a DELL computer not a WINDOWS computer.

[Adolph_Hitler]

Dell could easily sell the computer with Dell Linux and everyone would buy it. Its the Dell name brand that people want, not the Microsoft Windows crap.

They trust Dell, and if Dell were to say that Linux is the next big thing, well it is. Without Dells support Windows XP would have never taken off! Windows 98 was far more compatible at the time and XP wouldnt run any dos based games or 16 bit software.

Why do people use XP now? Because OEMs shoved it down their throats. No one went to a store and purchased XP, XP sold because new computers just come with XP instead of 98/ME. Many people including myself removed XP and put Windows98 or 2000 on there.

AOL?

[neurojab]

I suspect the same people that will buy these systems are the people that use AOL as their internet provider. I doubt the geek crowd will buy them because they're underpowered. The office "power user" crowd won't buy them because they're not loaded with Windows and Office. The remainder are casual internet users. These people don't know what Windows is, yet alone Linux. Many of these same people also use AOL as their internet provider.

How is Walmart/Sun/Etc... going to deal with the fact that AOL does not run on Linux? I expect massive returns of these computers if that issue isn't solved.

Re:You are a guest there

[Leebert]

As if the closed circuit TV systems that monitor every square inch of the store aren't enough.

Actually, not all of the camera domes you see in the ceiling have cameras in them.

That being said, I once had one of the Wal*Mart greeters chase me out into the parking lot and demand that I return inside the store because I apparently set off "Wal*Mart's inventory control system!". She refused to tell me why I needed to go back inside, so I shrugged and walked away. A plainclothesd LP came up to my drivers window as I was about to pull off. I told her she was free to ask her question in the parking lot, but I would not be inconvenienced to return inside the store unless she could give me a good reason. She told me they were calling the cops. I handed her my driver's license, said "Write down my name, go watch your videotape, and decide if you need to call the cops", took it back and drove away.

The funny thing was the reaction of the cops when I called them warning them that Wal*Mart was going to call them, and I gave them the full story. The copy who answered the phone had kind of an exasperated sound. "Yeah, they do that sort of stuff all the time", he told me.

Go figure.

Speaking of cameras, some Best Buy stores actually track 1 in 50 or so customers from entrance to exit for marketing purposes. You won't see the typical big black camra domes, instead there are little white camera domes on the trusswork, very, very inconspicuous. They're a few meters apart and completely blanket the store. (You should see the racks they go back to, it's insane) It's not in every store, but they tell me that the watch where you go, what you pick up, what you actually buy, etc.

Kinda scary really.

Re:People buy a DELL computer not a WINDOWS comput

[senzafine]

Dell may help bring a version of windows (such as XP) to the masses. But that's much easier to do than bring a completely different operating system to the masses. I think Dell can help (as well as other vendors). But Linux needs to establish itself as a viable desktop alternative.

What average Joe is going to buy a computer that doesn't have Windows and MS Office on it? Even if there were alternatives (Linux & Open Office) it's a complete turn off and wouldn't work unless the price was drastically different.

Seeing prices on Dell's nowadays...I don't see that happening.

You haven't convinced me

[IceAgeComing]

On a radio interview I heard recently, a journalist who's covered WalMart and (I believe) wrote a book about them pointed out that WalMart has threatened suppliers with having copies of their merchandise made by a Chinese supplier.

This may not be illegal, but it doesn't exactly smack of what nice guys do. It smacks a lot of what mean people do.

Gee, aren't you polite.

[ChrisMaple]

I hope you get keyed.

Re:The small towns destroy themselves

[deacon brown]

Oh, and I don't know if you noticed, but the kind of people who shop at Wal-Mart are the dregs of society. It pulls in about the same clientele as strip clubs and pawn shops. That's not wanted in our town.

Great insight, Mr. Free Pron! Pot calling kettle black, maybe??

external PSU's

[rebelcool]

i agree it would be a good idea, though pc's have multiple low voltages to deliver to components...5 and 12 are the ones i know off hand.

You'd need a special custom power connector for it, which would raise the price per unit some, if you changed from good ole' standard.

I think some machines have this already (didnt apple on the cube? maybe im wrong). But your sub-$300 pc is going to cut pennies wherever it can.

Re:Mail-In Rebates

[Cryptnotic]

You're not too quick, it seems. The company (Dell in this case) can offer the product for $279 if they offer it with a rebate. They know that they'll only pay out maybe 50% of the rebates. If they just gave everyone the discount, they know that they could only offer the product at $279 + $50 (i.e. 50% of the $100 rebate). So they would have to advertise it as being $329. If some other company offers a similar product at $279 (after $100 mail-in rebate), more people will go to buy the "$279" one and they'll lose sales.

That's the secret. Rebates are a trick of statistics.

Re:Eating Own Dogfood Test?

[stwrtpj]

About the Java Desktop rollout: I can't speak for those in large Sun offices like Broomfield, CO and Burlington, MA; they may be running it already, ...

As a Sun employee that DOES work in Broomfield, I can wholeheartedly confirm we've been using this for some time. Moreover, I work in a particular building on the campus that has its own Sunray network. We're mandated to use this special network, which contains just about everything on the bleeding edge that Sun has to offer, including the next unreleased version of Solaris and StarOffice, so we get to deal with the problems before the customers do.

So just to add emphasis to your statement, is Sun "eating its own dog food"? Damn right it is.

Beauty is in the eye of the soho business owner

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think what Linux really needs is to be associated with really ugly, underpowered, outdated systems (please no replies on how 1.6 GHz and 128 meg should be good enough or how you're running Linux on a postage stamp).

ugly, underpowered, outdated? Why, because dad bought you the latest dual Intel Xeon with a $500 video board so you can frag away with your friends?

I'm writing this from one of those ugly, underpowered, outdated 1.3 Ghz Duron, 128 MB Microtels right now. 1.6 Ghz comparable to a postage stamp? You've been brainwashed by the gaming/hardware industry, my young friend.

While no one I know has purchased Microtels from Walmart, I'd say that's because there aren't any Walmarts in the area. I have, and business associates I know have, purchased Microtels from TigerDirect. I've been run Apache on several of them for about 3 years, with uptimes exceeding a year. Business associates have been using them for file/print, dns, apache, and desktops. Yes, desktops. Instead of spending $600 to $1,000 for business desktops (just the hardware and Windows operating system), they can spend $200-$230 plus shipping, and get a fully functioning computer that is more than sufficient for their offices, and to replace lesser powered, older systems.
Of those that need faster systems for some reason, they are still using the Microtel systems, but are forwarding X over the lan from a more powerful server (still under $1,000, including memory upgrade).

Walmart doesn't sell bath soaps and cereals to your mom, young man. They sell whatever consumer goods to consumers that consumers want or need. And through their wholesale division, they also sell to businesses. But their wholesale division is not located at every location where a regular Walmart is located, so Walmart relies on their Walmart stores to also sell to businesses.

Small businesses far outnumber medium (500+ employees) and large businesses. And small businesses are far more likely to have retail versions of software licenses, including Microsoft server licenses. And they are far more likely to run out and pick up a new desktop or three, on a spur of the moment, or over a weekend, than big businesses (though I've known techs from billion dollar companies do this also).

You may think a Microtel is ugly, outdated, and underpowered, especially if running a Microsoft operating system, but according to some of your fanboy tech enthusiast sites, my 1.3 Ghz Duron powered system will run rings around a 2 Ghz Celery powered system, especially against office productivity testing programs.

One problem was OpenOffice taking long time to load, but that problem was removed with OpenOffice optimizations to memory settings in the 1.0 release, faster startup in the 1.1 release, and the fact that in office settings on a server/client setup with X forwarding, OpenOffice can and often is left running on the server. While KDE is bloated compared to Windowmaker or Xfce, and KDE is often activated as the default environment, it can easily be switched to another lighter desktop, and in that case, can run even on a postage stamp. But the Microtels have no problems running KDE and OpenOffice on them, without a memory or processor upgrade, I should know, I'm doing it now.

Another fact that you or your dad may not have considered coming from a Windows environment, is that because a large number of small businesses are running old systems, dating back to the first generation of pentiums, 486s in some of the small businesses I know, and even Intel 8086s, and 8088s for custom written calculations in DOS that they 1. don't want to pay to have rewritten, and 2. aren't aware that Linux has DOS emulation. The last time I suggested moving off WordPerfect for DOS and onto Linux/OpenOffice, the response was, "why?" "It works". "Why mess with it, if it works?"

Business owners, especially small businesses, are very conservative. If something works, they don't want to upgrad

Re:Who buys a PC at wallmart?

[srecd]

In fact the handheld units on the floor run a version of linux (watching them do a reload is entertaining actually).

Except for some new handhelds that they rolled out for tracking layaway packages and sending cashier requests to supervisors, which run Pocket PC. Oddly enough, these new units crash frequently, and the layaway handheld is so unreliable that nobody uses it, opting instead to write package locations down in a notebook and enter them into the register manually. Imagine that.

Re:Mail-In Rebates

[JamieF]

You're not good at reading, it seems.

The parent post that you replied to said this:
> I understand the logic of why they do it. But the fact that "we" as the public go along with that escapes me.
(my emphasis)

And then you explained in detail "why they do it."

Re:Who buys a PC at wallmart?

[Maestro4k]

• Except for some new handhelds that they rolled out for tracking layaway packages and sending cashier requests to supervisors, which run Pocket PC. Oddly enough, these new units crash frequently, and the layaway handheld is so unreliable that nobody uses it, opting instead to write package locations down in a notebook and enter them into the register manually. Imagine that.

Hehe, that's hilarious. :) Actually I can't say the other handhelds are terribly stable. Learning how to do a reload on them is critcal because they'll freak out so bad they won't work anymore at least once a day. (At least when they get used a lot, basically they freak out when you need them most.)

Still, bet they ditch the Pocket PC ones in the future if they're that bad.