Slashdot Mirror
US Expands Fingerprint and Mugshot Program for Visitors
prakslash writes "The US State Department has expanded its anti-terrorist fingerprinting program to include visitors from close US allies such as the UK, Australia, France, Germany and Japan. Everytime a visitor enters or leaves the US, they will have to get their mugshot and fingerprints taken - something that used to be mainly limited to your local police precinct. More news can be found here and here. In addition to the huge costs involved, one has to wonder if this will affect tourism to this country." Hmmm, a huge database of digital mugshots and digital fingerprints, which will be kept forever - hope we have enough RAM to search through it quickly and constantly.
freedom or safety? Why are we so willing to comprimise our rights? Where does it stop?
Just some questions...
WoW: Scheod 70 orc warlock on Shadowmoon
No, that isn't it at all. How can we expect this to stay as a free country if we show ourselves as so closed to the rest of the world? (let alone ourselves)
http://mediagoblin.org/
- If somebody is going to commit something illegal, he'll probably enter the country illegally. Probably through the porous mexican border or the huge coastline that the US has.
- Secondly, this is downright disrespectful. Detractors will argue that it's for the safety of the US. Well, I really don't see how it'll help. Once the dude is in the country, and has committed the offence, this sort of system is absolutely worthless. Effort should be put into preventing these sort of tragedies. Efforts like putting more effort into the Israel Palestine crisis, managing Iraq more effectively, stop being so patriachal and showing more respect to the citizens of the world.
I for one, will be taking my tourist dollars elsewhere. Where the authorities respect me. Where I'm not treated like a criminal and people realise that not everybody is out to get them.Okay, a silly example but how far from the truth is it? I just don't think these measures do much at all to prevent acts of terror.
Happy Trails!
Erick
http://www.busyweather.com/
As a taxpaying citizen, I am appalled by this move. It is my dollar that is paying for this system, and each day it seems more and more that I am distanced from control over how my country works. Was this how the Framers intended our country to be?
My girlfriend is Japanese. She went back to Japan recently for her brother's wedding, and upon her return she had to go through this procedure. She has a green card. It saddens and sickens me what this country does in the name of preventing terrorism.
Ads? What ads?
You know, they do all this to supposedly prevent terrorism, yet, the US has thousands of miles of unguarded and unwatched borders. I can go to any odd border lake or river in Canada with a canoe and paddle right over with a backpack full of anthrax and no one would know. These measures are useless. If someone with half a brain wants to get in to the US and kill a lot of people, guess what? They'll do it. They don't need to take a plane there.
But seriously, what about immigrants? One more way to marginalize that group. They already face language and cultural barriers, stereotypes, and a host of other problems... now they'll be printed, even if they become citizens later.
When the government starts printing people who have committed no crime and may later be citizens, it's clear that we're on the very edge of having full prints taken for something like a marriage license, then for a driver's license, and then at birth.
Even if our government doesn't start printing us for these things, there will be reciprocal arrangements with other countries. Cross any national border into a developed country, get printed, have that shared worldwide.
We already do have footprints taken at birth, so remember not to walk barefoot around the house of your murder victims.
The first question I have is: just what does the US think this will achieve? And the second question: how does it think this will achieve it?
Is it to stop terrorists entering the country? Sorry. No such luck. If Individual A joins a terrorist group, but keeps his head low, he won't be on any of the lists. If he's careful, there'll be no way to say that he is a terrorist, even though he is. Would this system have caught the Unabomber, for example?
Or criminals? Same story.
All this system will do is catch those who have been stupid enough to be caught before... if that. It's a dubious step, of dubious usefulness; the potentials for abuse of this information are sufficient that I, for one, will not be visiting the US in the future (unless they drop this requirement). The UK? Maybe. Africa? Possibly. Maybe even Jamaica (via Britain, rather than the US, as I'd have to get a transit visa to go through the US...)
I would suggest that the US can kiss a reasonable proportion of their current tourist dollars goodbye.
I was about to mod you Funny, but then reread the post and probably it wasn't your intention isn't it?
"I think this line is mostly filler"
Hmmm, a huge database of digital mugshots and digital fingerprints, which will be kept forever - hope we have enough RAM to search through it quickly and constantly.
Haven't you ever heard of a driver's license?
Granted, the fingerprints are another issue altogether.
This is a lot of sobbing over nothing. A visitor's freedoms within this country aren't being hampered. Infact, the only thing that's really happening here is keeping track of who is coming an going and comparing it to a database of known criminals. Unless you get pulled in by the police for something completely unrelated, this is never going to affect 99.5% of the people who enter the US.
If a freakin fingerprint is all you have to worry about entering this country, you're still doing pretty damn good.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
The poster has it exactly right -- this is just like treating all visitors as criminals when they enter the US.
Even though terrorism is as disgusting an act as humanity has managed to think up in the past 5000 years, this is an awful move by the US. This goes beyond simple restrictions of civil liberties in the name of security.
What ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?
Okay, let's apply this to the current "standard method of terrorizing the United States" which is Saudi terrorists in planes, or car bombs. Everybody knew that the government would do security checks on people booking one way economy tickets with cash, and that's (duh!) why the Saudi terrorists booked return tickets, first class and paid for them with credit cards. And this is the issue with all these "we mean well but we have no idea what to do" initiatives. Everybody knew that, they knew that. And now, everybody will know about the fingerprinting, and they'll know that too. If fingerprinting was applied to the current "standard model" of terrorists flying planes, should we find a piece of a terrorist's finger, we would successfully be able to indentify said finger after he kills hundreds or thousands of people. This is the perfect technology for tracking terrorists post facto. Solves nothing, and is expensive. How does this make anyone safer? I'm not sure either. I suppose it helps secure the borders -- against those with records -- so the next terrorists will be those with no records. Problem solved (for the terrorists.) Oh yes, and it will injure the tourism industry, which previously had produced $582 billion dollars in the economy. This hurt the economy while doing nothing against terrorism. Congratulations to the administration for thinking this up.
The baby's fine -- please stop sending business cards.
I have never needed to be finger printed, and if thats the way you treat allies/friends/tourists, then you'll never see me spend my money in your country.
Disgraceful
"Consider how lucky you are that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far
I imagine that, if true, this will have a significant impact on the US hosting scientific conferences. I mean, lets face it, given a choice between visiting the US and getting treated like a criminal or going somewhere else to present your results what are you going to do?
one has to wonder if this will affect tourism to this country
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
remember these people are GUESTS in this country, if they don't like it, they don't have to visit.
If i visited another country, and it was the policy in that country, it's basically a tough-noogies type deal. Don't like it, don't visit.
U.S. Constitution (14th amendment): No state shall "deny any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
In fact, you ARE entitled to equal protection of your rights -US citizen or not!
google " us constitution deny any person"
9/11 hijackers all entered the US legally. How the fuck would you feel being trapped on the top of a burning building? Did you see the video of dozens of people jumping to their death to get away from the flames?
Fingerprinting hurts far less.
Interesting. I didn't know fingerprinting could prevent people from flying planes into buildings.
How, pray tell, would fingerprints distinguish a legal visitor who wants to go to disneyland, and a legal visitor who wants to hijack a plane and fly it into a building?
If the hijacker has no previous criminal record, as with 9/11 IIRC, why would this possibly be of use?
No Problem.
Not only will this affect people travelling to the US, but also people transiting through the US to go to other countries.
I will definitely stop going to or through the US and start using a non-US airline. I think I'll write to AA to let them know. Maybe if enough people do that...
-- Slef
but what?
The first thing you can do is to quit pretending that solution to big government is to elect more politicians who favor big government. If you're planning on voting Democrat or Green, you're part of the problem, because those two parties favor larger and more intrusive government.
A government that is given more power to do good is one that has just been given more power to do evil. The solution is to take back the power we the citizens gave them. Only vote for candidates who promise to reduce the power of government in all areas.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
The really awful thing is that a major thing we used to think despicable about Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany was the identification papers and the restrictions on travel.
With computer databases, your image and your fingerprints *are* identification papers, and now you are being forced to hand them over at checkpoints.
Seriously, it was all very funny when we *started* to point out the amazing number of similarities between Hitler and Bush's rise. There was a terrorist act on a national monument (and even, in the 9/11 case, *attempted* on the national legislature, same as Germany) that produced national fear, whipped up by leader, used to convince legislature to pass through critical bills granting extensive police powers. Political opponents were accused of being soft on terrorism. Fear and xenophobia against religious (Islamic/Christian) and racial (Arabic/Jewish) groups was used to greatly infringe those people's rights and persecute them. A number of undesireable people, in violation of national law, were locked up in a camp to isolate them from the rest of society (Guantanamo Bay/Nazi concentration camps). Nationalistic fervor was whipped up and whipped up again to build up a popular base. Personal vendettas were made good upon with the new power (Bush-Hussein/Hitler-a number of enemies). Other countries were invaded and occupied on poor pretexts, banking on the fact that other, less powerful, countries would not be willing to organize or do more than protest (Iraq/several countries). A primary motivation for the invasion was resources (and later Nazi invasion into the USSR was significantly for oil). Business and government had close ties, and war profiteer corporations did a number of nasty things to take advantage of cronyism with major political figures (Schindler's List is a nice example). Right now the third largest employer of armed forces in Iraq (after the US and Britain)are private corporations -- big companies that are answerable only to an extremely friendly occupational government that grants Iraqis almost no rights and consists mostly of people trying to curry favor with their US occupiers to try to get a more advantageous political position in the future. Neither leader is brilliant, but both are prone to violence and grudge-holding. Both managed to seize control of the legislature at about the time they gained office. Neither has much regard for the lives of the people they have conquered -- we have been using unarmed Iraqi guards as inspectors of cars into restricted areas before US personnel come close, making human shields out of them. Neither feels that international opinion is of much import. Both quickly established powerful police organizations with far stronger powers than their predecessors, little oversight, and the ability to bypass much of the judicial system (OHS/Gestapo). Both started their invasions based on punishing the terrorists that attacked their nation, and immediately spread out once they had the power they needed. Both had rising unemployment in their countries, and a growing degree of xenophobia towards foreign laborers.
There are some differences. Hitler respected and even idolized what Britain had done -- Bush treats Britain as a lapdog. Hitler actively physically intimidated his physical opponents -- Bush does not. Hitler invaded, occupied, and eliminated the governments of no countries within his first four years as ruler, whereas Bush invaded, occupied, and eliminated the governments of two countries within his first four years as ruler. Hitler wound up eventually killing many more people than Bush has thus far, though Bush is currently ahead for the first four years of rule. Hitler did not actively attempt to control other countries through diplomatic means -- Bush has a team that works hard to control other contries without needing to overthrow their government. Bush has computers and telecommunication monitoring systems, but Hitler did not.
Screw Goodwin's Law. The man didn't write it in 2004.
I'll leave
May we never see th
Guests...maybe we should treat [b]guests[b/] with some respect? Or else give them a different name, like...intruders? :-P
Anouncing the new Spring/Summer tech conference Lineup
Apr 28- May 5
Comdex Baghdad
May 12 - 20
Object World Kabul
May 28 - Jun 6
Computer Coders Ass'n Islamabad
Jun 19 - 25
Infosec Beijing
Jul 8 - 16
Netcom Casablanca
Cool, so my country (Australia) who sent troops to Iraq - now has its citizens treated the same way suspects are when brought into a police station.
I just can't wait to plan my next holiday to Disneyland!
Man watching 6 MSCE's around a sun box, looks alot like the opening scene's of 2001:space odyssey...
You know, how is getting your mug shot taken and having a copy of your fingerprint on file detracting from our civil liberties? It's like the govenrnment knowing you name. Or do you not want them to know that too? It's just identification. I think a government has the right to know who is in the country it protects.
Their Congressional charter is after all to make recommendations for how to strengthen security and avoid terrorist attacks in the future.
Help fight continental drift.
Want to be fingerprinted?
Join the military.
Helps them identify the 1-2 kg of your remains after you step in the wrong place or stand under a 2000-lb bomb.
Being fingerprinted is not a big deal.
Unless you plan to be a criminal later in life.
Seriously. I feel better knowing they can identify me from the smudges on the inside of the trunk of the car I was buried in.
Here in georgia, you must take a print for a drivers license now*, and most banks have a print pad for cashing checks. All states will have it for DL's soon, it's the non declared but defacto national identy card. Internal passports will be next.
*I also suspect, really just suspect, they've been doing a closeup retina scan print during the picture taking part of the license, if that's possible at a distance of a few feet. I don't know, though. I can't prove it, but last time I got mine renewed it sure was suspicious, EVERYONE in the line had two pics taken, and I asked about it, because before for years and years it was "one snap, sorry, you're stuck with that one, move along now" and the lady state cop gave me quite a squirrely answer and looked chagrined about it, like she was embarrased/angry at the same time.
And I mean really, what a scam anyway, prints and pics at the OFFICIAL border crossings, yet they turn a blind eye to the MILLIONS who cross illegally, and it's not all "out of work poor hispanics" who cross over, there's all kindsa folks sneaking across. Tell me this ain't weird..
The whole "war on terror" stuff is being taken advantage of in this stealth coup that's been going on, IMO. Look at all the 9-11 government prior knowledge stuff that is FINALLY making the mainstream news the past few weeks.
There are many problems with this policy, not the least of which is the good ole' "doesn't fix the perceived problem".
This policy does however, provide an excellent solution to the problem of "politicians in charge need to appear to act decisive to gain re-election". Particularly when the government is running breathtaking budget deficits -- whats a few more billion to implement this?
-- Gary Goldberg KA3ZYW 301/249-6501 AIM:OgGreeb Digital Marketing Inc., Bowie, MD
thats the point. we won't. I won't, thats for sure. and I lived in the US for 5 years, have a many american friends there. I used to have diplomatic immunity, but not anymore. I have no rights in your country. I can be locked up for no reason.. I will not be part of that parade. what confuses me is the claim that a guest in some way is not worthy some of the most basic rights outlined by your legislation, such as right to privacy and right to a fair trial... does it not say something about your moral conviction concerning these rights if they are applied with discrimination? non-americans are humans too.
Far more important than tourist dollars are business dollars:
Until recently the US was the undisputed center of the international economy. Recently the EU has risen as a potential threat, and in other fields so has China.
Despite all claims of telecommunications and ecommerce, big business deals are still made in personal meetings, and have more to do with social processes than with economics.
Given these measures, where do you think the business will go?
If you had to choose between making a deal with someone who deals with you as an equal, or someone who treats you like a terrorist, which one would you choose?
Many a good business proposal has gone down because of more trivial reasons: bad personal chemistry, bad food in a business dinner, personal dislike for a national stereotype, etc.
In Latin America, for example, people have been typically happy to do business with Americans:
The stereotype says that Americans like to do business, have money, and keep things straightforward. The US was normally seen as a nation that welcomes you and treats you like a king as long as you bring money to pay for it.
The whole US was for most middle-class businessmen of the region like a mix of Disneyland and a Giant Shopping Mall is for a teenage girl. A business meeting in Atlanta, New York or Florida is a half-vacation.
In short, they're happy and receptive to a pitch while the other team has 'home advantage'.
More recently, it's easy to find people feeling personally insulted by new measures post 9/11. Now this can make them feel like criminals.
People will start to simply refuse to go to the US, for business or pleasure: "if they want to do business, let them come here". And the stereotype will be different as well: Americans are paranoid, make things difficult, think of everyone else as criminals and terrorists.
It wouldn't take much for a friendly European or Asian competitor to take the business. It's not like they have to dazzle them with a better offer, they just have to make them feel better about the deal.
Freedom is the freedom to say 2+2=4, everything else follows...
Now that I've got your attention, consider this:
1. Most of the 9/11 bastard hijackers were Saudi
2. Most of the money flowing to terrorist organizations is Saudi.
3. Most of the "brains" behind all this are from Pakistan.
So what do the Bushies do?
1. Ignore Saudis
2. Invade Iraq - something which could have been done anytime.
3. Promote the pakis to "non-nato" ally status
4. Jerk off visitors to the US with their dumbass US-VISIT program.
Fscking idiots. But hey, you get the government that you deserve and most Americans are fscking idiots anyway.
Watch out for the "I hate Bush, I'm voting for Nader" effect, which of course virtually assures that you will spoil the democrats chance at plurality and allow the Republicans to win.
Does it make you feel better now to know the US is emulating countries it once surpassed in freedoms and liberties? Give yourselves a big pat on the back and ignore the obvious descent your last two administrations have imposed on your nation, rest assured you're still somewhat better than countries formerly under Soviet rule. Hooo. Rah.
Interesting interpretation of how to be a good HOST. Sometimes, in civilized countries that is, the word "Honored" is often prepended to GUEST. Especially if they come bearing gifts that you depend upon for your well being.
Ya know, there were things I didn't like about being behind the Iron Curtain during the hight of the cold war, military officers armed with automatic weapons boarding the train at the border crossing and such, and I vowed not to go back until the curtain lifted, but at least, In Soviet Russia, they didn't strip search me and they didn't photograph and print me. They checked my passport. That's what a passport is for. You should read the fine print on your own American issued passport.
Mine goes something like this:
"The Secretary of the United States of America hereby requests all whom it may concern to permit the citizen(s) of the United States named herein to pass without delay or hinderence and in case of need to give said citizen(s) all lawful aid and protection."
Clearly that must have been written by some former Secretary of State who had read his Homer.
As I might commend you to do.
The Odyssey is an allegory of how to treat guests in a civil manner, especially those of a foreign land.
Reading with careful attention might increase the turnout at your next soiree.
Civility breeds civility, and this step will do nothing to further the cause of our self-appointed leadership of the civilized world.
It will also do nothing to combat terrorism, thus making the injury even more insulting.
I fully expect people to not visit in droves.
KFG
The US is free to do whatever it sees fit to protect itself; I don't have a problem with that and no-one should.
But, I won't be giving my fingerprints to any foreign government, and I expect many Americans would feel the same way.
In the last decade I've made many trips to the US, at least once a year. I've worked in the US for a few months at a time, spending all my wages in that country.
Aside from the time I spent there working, I estimate I've spent $US 30,000 in what amounts to a total of about 70 days travel there for pleasure.
One trip I took, weeks after 9/11 when the entire tourism industry was reeling (to Minneapolis) lasted 3 days and I spent over $1500.00. One 10-day trip to Chicago I spent $5,000.00.
You won't see that money again. I'm going elsewhere for vacation from now on. Just as the US is free to do whatever it feels necessary to protect itself, I'm free to spend my money as I see fit.
The US customs has full access to any records held by police in my country, and state police can call that data up from the patrol car.
If I had been charged with any offense here at home, my fingerprints would be part of that information. Keep in mind shoplifting is a felony here; one bad check is a felony; lying on a loan application is a felony; in fact there's no such thing as a misdemeanor anything beyond common traffic offenses (and serious traffic offenses are felonies).
The fact that I don't have any fingerprint records, to me, is testament to my good character.
But, once I give that information away, I have no control over what a foreign government can do with it. I won't be taking that risk.
That is pure myth. The only adminstration in the last 25 years to not run a deficit was Clinton. The Clinton adminstration is the one that saw the smallest increase in federal employees in the last 25 years.
Republicans are not for smaller government. They are for having government intrude in my bedroom and personal life. They are for giving big tax cuts to their rich buddies. The are for gouging the government with fat contracts to their contributors (Haliburton).
And I'm saying this as a Libertarian, not a Democrat. Republicans claim to be better for the economy, but the past 25 years show that to be wrong. At least the democrats aren't as happy to take away my rights.
Notice how the Republicans are the ones always proposing constitutional amendments to take away people's rights. Smaller government my ass.
US being friendly would be nice... unfortunately for two things.
1. A big brother mentality, or maybe now is more of a big bully. Anyone who have power (US, and previously, the Soviet Union) all wants to either be the big brother (we must protect the weak) or a big bully (do what we say, or we beat the crap out of you).
2. For above reason, other country generally look upon US with skepticism.
In US, you can easily buy enough major firearms to wipe out your neighbourhood but a few little fireworks are banned.
> The new Spanish leader thinks that by removing troops
> from the middleast his country will be safer.
Bull, bull, bull! Will you quit beating up this oh-so-convenient strawman? That is NOT why he is planning on pulling the troops back, but rather because he (and the Spanish majority) opposed putting them in on principle from the start. Now he gets a chance to act on his principles. The media and their willing followers can spin this whichever way they want, but this straw ain't gonna turn to gold.
Yet strangely enough, ton after ton of high-grade marijuana flows across the border to New York City alone. Laugh if you will, but if bales of aromatic plant matter can enter the country on a routine basis, then a few clever men will certainly be able to do the same.
====---====
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
I mean other than Mexico or Canada (who wer are on special terms with). It has ALWAYS been "Your identification papers, please". You MUST have a passport and not having one will cause you real trouble. They demand you give it to them, fill out a form declaring the reason and length of your visit, as well as what you are bringing. You must then obtain their official permission (usually in the form of a stamp) to be there.
The document they require is nothing simple either. It's an official federal proof of identity. Getting it requires proving citizenship and identity. It's actually much harder in many countries. I'm a US/Canada dual citizen. My US passport was easy, just prove I'm my parent's kid that was that. My Canadian one is a bitch. They need lots more ID (copy of my driver license and US passport, and my physical citizen ID card), a sworn statement testifying to my identity by a notary public (or doctor, lawyer, etc) who has known me for a few years, etc.
Know what? They STILL want me to go through all the shit when I go to the US or Canada from the other. I can get away with less than a passport since I'm a citizen and the countries are on good terms, but it's more difficult. To any other country, forget it. It's a passport or nothing.
ID checks at the border are nothing new, and have needed official ID for a LOOOONG time.
Unfortunately this means I'll have avoid visiting the US from now, which is a shame, because I was planning a trip to visit a few friends fairly soon.
Most americans I've met are friendly, open, decent, people whom I've really enjoyed meeting and getting to know in my past visits. It's a shame that I can't come and see them any more, or visit any of the great places in the US, but I refuse to be treated as a criminal and have my photo and fingerprint in some foreign nations database over which i have absolutely no control.
So, I'll do the only thing I can and try to stay out. Hope you won't miss my tourist dollars. I'll sure miss the friendly and nice people.
How does this help protect me again?
Oh look bread and circuses...what was I saying?
This makes me feel bad.
I'll avoid going to the States while this politic is going on. I don't like to be treated as a criminal.
Are you serious? Every administration in the last 25 years increased the size of government. Some may not have grown it as fast as others, but none have decreased it. Clinton oversaw the smallest increase in federal employees, but he still oversaw an increase.
Democrats don't want a smaller government, they want a more efficient big government.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
A lot of the world is anti-american
and that makes them my enemies.
some will act violently on their beliefs
and those people I have to try to kill, as they're trying to kill me.
some will not
and I won't forget those people are there. Tell me you're my enemy, and I'll keep an eye on you. Show me you're my enemy and I'll kill you.
yea isn't it funny, we used to laugh at those germans for putting up a wall and having checkpoints everywhere. They didn't know what is was to be free we thought. tear down that wall regan said. now we see israel building one. fingerprinting visitors? oh god no.. now we do the same.
did you forget to take your meds?
Asyslum seekers from Uganda and Someone from the UK who fancies going shopping in New York aren't exactly the same thing are they?
I wanted to go to the US but will not do so, even though my GBP will go a long way over there. But I wont be treated like a criminal for daring to travel there.
Bush and Blair ate my sig!
It's only the foreigners who are having civil liberties violated
Let's see... I used to be able to fly anywhere within the U.S. without having to show picture ID. Now, I must carry my papers and be prepared to show them at U.S. government checkpoints.
I feel much less safe than I ever did before since my life and the lives of all U.S. citizens will be affected far more by the U.S. government and the laws and rules it imposes on its citizens than by all the terrorists in the world. I'd rather be able to travel where I wished and read whatever books I wished without the government tracking my every move than have a false sense of being protected by the occasional loon who is hell bent on loading a rental truck full of fertilizer and blowing it up in front of an IRS office. There will always be terrorism as sure as there will always be the human emotions of anger and hate, and it's asinine to erode civil liberties in the name of either.
Anyone who thinks U.S. citizen's civil liberties aren't being violated is either not a U.S. citizen, or they have a poster of Ashcroft on their bedroom ceiling.
Aside from the evidently perspicacious observations made by most here that the measures won't be terribly effective, and will certainly prevent freedom-lovin' tourists such as myself from crossing a U.S border, what about the risks associated with the expanding and increasingly cross-referenced network of databases (biometric and otherwise) that pervade modern society??
It seems to me that there are really good reasons why fingerprints have not, until now, been summarily taken from people at birth. One of those is civil liberties/preservation of individual dignity and individual volition etc, but one is pragmatic: a repository of such information can be abused, or used by criminals for some illicit purpose.
In the past, this would't have been much of a problem - but with biometrics imbedded in many common documents, and modern technology (say the ability to credibly 'put' someone's fingerprint on a gun) it's going to be.
Every police force and public service has corrupt elements or people with criminal tendencies, no matter how careful they are. The more data held by these sources, the more enticing it will be for terrorists or common criminals to find some way to utilise it. I don't think terrorists, perhaps because of their rather luddite backgrounds, have fully comprehended yet what damage they could wreak through attacks on the very electronic systems we are falling over ourselves to put in place for their benefit.
As the citizen of another country, however friendly, I have no rights AFAIK under U.S law with regards to the way my personal data is treated. Who is to say they won't sell or otherwise distribute that data? Who is to say they won't provide it to my own Government in circumvention of our own Laws? (Remember Echelon?)One can only imagine the ghastly scenarios of identity theft and the consequent tribulations endured by the luckless individual whose personal data has become the plaything of some criminal.
The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. -- Percy Bysshe Shelley
Solution: insult them and tell them they're all effectively criminals. Then they'll like us more!
Do you ever get the feeling that someone important just doesn't Get It?
Ceterum censeo subscriptionem esse delendam.
The fact that the USA has a few hundred non citizens locked up with no access to the legal system is a much bigger issue then the USA wanting more solid id info on visitors. The first is a violation of human rights, the 2nd is an understandable tho futile attempt at keeping the wrong people out.
I've travelled internationally quite a bit in the past few years and although I've yet to find a country with "pleasant" border control, the USA counts as the worst first-impression I've ever experienced.
You're warned that getting the slightest thing wrong on your declaration card will see you thrown into jail and the staff appear to have manners and an abrasive attitude that are certainly the worse than Australia, New Zealand, Singapore or the UK.
You can't help but get the overwhelming impression that, as a tourist, you're not so much welcomed as tollerated as a temporary visitor to the USA.
With all the new measures in place, and the presumption of guilt that accompanies them, I certainly wouldn't put the USA very high on my list of places to visit again.
Once you're through the airport it's a nice place and the people I met there were great -- but that border-control is a *real* turn-off.
Besides which, what's with LAX? I've never had to queue on the sidewalk to get to the check-in counter before -- it's crazy!
Remember - half of the US voters voted for Gore
That is merely amusing trivia. Neither Bush nor Gore were going for a numeric majority. Both were going for an electoral college majority. You run campaigns quite differently depending on whether or not you are going for a numerical or an electoral college majority. The "Gore won" argument is not unlike a losing football team pointing out that they moved the ball a greater number of yards during the game. That is interesting and all but that was not the victory criteria agreed upon before the game.
It is also interesting to note that with the three way races the two Clinton/Gore victories had a minority of Americans voting for Clinton/Gore, a majority voted for the other guys. In short, Gore received a minority the two times he made it, a majority the one time he did not. Again, nothing more than amusing trivia.
I'm British, and in October this year someone enters the US with a faked copy of my passport. Their fingerprints and photo will be added to the database as me. Unaware of this, I then visit the US some time after. As soon as they take my fingerprints it is going to be flagged up that I've visited before and the fingerprints don't match. Imagine the hassle trying to prove you are who you say you are, and that the first person was the imposter. This just won't work unless other countries share information; as far as I know the UK government doesn't have my fingerprints, and even if they did, there is no plan to share it.
I am an old European. With policies like this I guarantee you that I will not visit US for holiday or business. I don't want to be treaten like a criminal.
However, what makes me more angry is that US politics destabilises the world and IMHO terrorism is a selfmade american product which all have to suffer from. Strange that US has been our best friends and now the distance between cultures feels much bigger to America as for example to our Turkish friends.
I think you missed my main point-I don't give a fuck what a terrorist says to justify his/her acts of terrorism.
When you know what 'justification' a terrorist uses to kill innocent people, then maybe you understand that this and previous US governments have provided both wood and sparks to ignite this fire. US governments have shown in the past not to give a damn about people in other countries; US governments support whatever regime as they see best for their own plans. THAT feeds terrorism. If you want to put a stop to terrorism, take away its breeding ground: change US foregn policy.
Fuck excuse me for not giving a fuck about someone who murder INNOCENT people and has a reason for it. I don't give a shit.
Does this mean you are willing to let the reason a terrorist became a terrorist keep on existing? Kill one terririst, another will take its place, as long as that other thinks it's the only way. Take away the breeding ground for terrorism, and it will fade away.
People who kill innocent people should follow the same fate!
No, they should be put on trial in a court of law.
Tell you what the next time someone shoots, burns, mutilates someone from my country (...)
And here lies a mayor source of the problem. Why should it be limited to someone from your own country? Why not have the same feelings for a 14 year old palestine girl who was shot without reason? Or an old lady sitting in a bus in whatever Israelian city? Why do you not ask your government to put more pressure on Isreal to make peace, and not war?
They want the world to be ISLAM-ONly
Sure, some fundamentalists want that. Just as there are fundamentalist christian nutcases who want the whole world to be christian. Just like the US educational system wants to have all students swear an oth to some deity. The fact is, most muslims just want peacefull coexistance, as long as they may hold their own beliefs. Look into history: Spain was once occupied by the (muslim) Moors; under their reign christians as well as jews could openly have their own religion.
You should open your eyes and understand they have one objective and that is convert the world to Islam. Just like the Palestinians want to wipe Israel off of the map and not live with them.
Yeah, right. Most palestines just want to have freedom, food on the table, a house to live in, and decent education for their children; most of these things they do not have. The main reason they are opposed to Israel is because in their eyes Israel is keeping them from their basic human rights and needs, and I cannot blame them for that view.
I'm all for a discussion with groups not out to destroy mine or any others way of life but they wouldn't talk to us if we begged.
??? They tried and talked, but we did not listen. That pushed the extremists among them into terrorism.
They want all of us dead or converted but we know they prefer dead.
Nope, they just want to be left alone, in peace.
They have no value of life period.
And US governments do, right? You stated yourself: you want to put a bullet through the heads of terrorists. Ever thought that those terrorists looked at the US and thought: "Well, they are so peaceful, they have never illegally overthrown a democratic government they did not like, they never invaded another country the last 40 years, they have never lied to their own people."? Large groups of people around the world see the US as a bullying oppressor (even a large number of people in Europe see it that way). Change US government actions, and you'll change that view and take away the breeding ground of terrorism.
The only thing they understand is violence so that's what they'll get.
You did not react on my arguments that this did not help with the IRA, nor with the ETA. You simply repeat your mantra.
Lastly we can try to understand all we want but it w
Wenn ist das Nunstueck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
"US == Evil ; Any EU nation == Can do no wrong"
That's probably because many EU countries (I'm thinking of the nordic ones and the Benelux) are fundamentally more decent and liberal than the US. Just because the UK (with it's dodgy un-written "constitution") has regressed, it doesn't mean that the rest of the EU member-states have.
For example many of us have civil codes that are built on fair, just and easily understood principles rather than arbitrary precedant, proportional representation that means that every member of the electorate's vote counts, and a respectful approach to the environment.
The US offical said we are just closing a loop hole for visa wava countries. "At the moment, someone can just fly to a wava country and get a passport and get straight into the US without checking.". Just get a passport? Strangly enough they are pretty hard to get here, you don't get one at the airport with a Big Mac. You either trust countries or you don't if you don't trust our systems here in the EU (fair enough). Require visas for those countries.
James
PS I think gloves will be an important travel accessory in the future!
Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.
Everyone else knew this and yet you yanks still went ahead and invaded the place, thereby giving the Islamic fanatics yet another battle cry. Well done.
Next time, try actually making up your own minds instead of letting the garbage that passes for mass media in the US do it for you.
...your country.
Please don't start with the "I have nothing to hide so what" comments, because they mean nothing. The fact that people are treated like a criminal before they ever committed a criminal offense is plain wrong. This, apart from the possibility that people are wrongfully accused.
I think the European parliament agrees, they didn't whistle Bolkestein (yes, the same person that loves software patents) back from his deal with the US for nothing.
Time will learn whether perhaps a mass drop in tourism and business-trips to the US will have an impact on this decision.
Slashdot: stuff for news, nerds that matter, matter for news, stuff that nerd
The inhabitants of the US are worried about the state of the US. The inhabitants of Europe are worried about the state of the US. Which makes me wonder if there's anyone left to worry about the state of Europe!
Good point!
Here in the UK, the BBC is giving an enormous amount of coverage to the US presidential campaign, as if we have any say (or interest) in the outcome.
Personally, I wish they would forget all about it, wait until it's all over, then make the generic announcement which suffices whenever any other nation (including those in the EU) has a general election:
Today, the people of [insert name of foreign country] elected [insert name] as [insert title of head of state]. UN observers say the election process was fair/flawed [delete as applicable, and elaborate if necessary]. [Insert name of Prime Minister] telephoned Mr/Mrs [delete as applicable] [insert surname] to congratulate him/her [delete as applicable], and said that he hopes the UK and [insert name of foreign country] can work together on [insert vague reference to issue of mutual interest].
Sorry, but myself and friends here in Scotland have been talking about this a lot with regards to the Visa situation, etc. and it's plain and simple: we don't plan on visiting anymore, or at least until this current wave of paranoid nonsense stops
It's you guys I feel sorry for - your entire country is being branded as insane because of your government. In some ways we are suffering it in the UK as well, but in only a fraction of the extremety.
You'll be grateful if it keeps one of the nut jobs with bombs in their backpacks off the
bus/train your're riding on when you visit
Do you really think that someone who is prepared to die to kill people will care if the government knows their identity? I'm sure it's really usefull when clearing up the bodies to know who did it.
A latent existence
The survivalist fantasy is a bunker in Montana packed small arms, a cache of ammo, and maybe some surplus military grade weapons from the '80s. The reality is a 21st century army with stealth technologies, robots, air support and BFGs that will turn your dug-out into a smoking crater before you can fire off a single one of your worthless cap pistols.
You got this wrong :
- I'm not sure the US of the 40's and the US of today are really the same country. The first was a country with strong principles, and applied them, well better than we applied ours. I can't count how many times I was admirative. The last, well, leaves somewhat to desire. Speaking of 4th reich like a previous post is of course BS, but what I admired in the 40's US is for the best part gone with the years...
- We (the whole EU) have as high standards as the US for delivering IDs and passports. The US administration today has full acces to all data from the airlines, comprising passport data and even credit card numbers, so why take it again if it isn't for not trusting us ?
- If you consider my post is "anti-american rethoric", please listen to Gaza or Tehran or a couple of other places in the third world for an example of what "anti-american rethoric" means. Or is it no longer allowable to write the faintest criticism against any US policy without being considered and enemy ?
- If we did the same at Paris airport with US citizens, how would you feel ? honestly ? I too got fingerprints and picture taken for my job, but until now we do not take them from US tourists and I did not hear we plan to do it. Altough some kind of "retaliation" could now emerge.
- About being there when we need you : We sure had an absolute need to join against Irak in 1991. We sure had a deep need to follow to Kabul en 2002. In both cases the reason for going to war were obvious and we followed you. For Irak in 2003 the reasons were, let's say, not so obvious.
I know where the ennemies of my country are, and I do NOT think they're in the US. If you look for someone "spewing anti-american rethoric" you're wrong, but I'm not willing to blindly applause on every american decision, and I can and will "vote with my feet" against this one.
One of those Europeans...
(...) Al Qaeda is fighting for the "peace" and prosperity of a select few at the expense of many (...)
Bingo! I take it you mean the Al Qaeda _leadership_. The leadership of such 'organisations' are likely to be the most extreme. The mass of followers are likely mislead and (ab)used by the leadership, which brings us to my original point: the US should change it foreign policy, force Israel to make peace with Palestine; this will take away the power the extremists have over the masses.
To say that Al Qaeda is interested in "freedom" or "peace" is a semantic flaw. Their definition of these terms are incompatible with the western world's at all.
If we were to meet face to face we would probably end up argreeing with each other for 99% about this subject. Al Qaeda, like (almost) all extremist movements, is abusing words to manipulate followers. I used these terms as a sort of devils advocate.
Wenn ist das Nunstueck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
You're right, "Fourth Reich" goes too far. However there are some frightening parallels to be seen with pre-WWII Germany.. Depending on where you put the exact starting date it took between 10 and 20 years for the situation in Germany to escalate into what we now call the Holocaust.
We're now approx 2.5 years away from 9/11/01 and the USA is at this moment showing parallels to Germany in the early 30's when Hitler obtained power even though he had didn't have the majority of votes (Bush also didn't have majority), and laws like PATRIOT put large restraints on civil liberties just like many of the early Nazi laws did.
Now I'm not saying the US can't be corrected in its policies and I certainly won't put the Nazi party at the same level as the current administration but still.. it gets you thinking. I can imagine people are worried.
People will always be people. Germans aren't especially cruel compared to any other country so there's always the danger of a new Holocaust occuring. The Holocaust wasn't carried out on US soil so the memory of it may be less lively there. I just hope sometime soon the US government will see the error of its ways. There's no such thing as a "land of the free" with a big electrified fence around it. Many jews behind the Nazi ghetto walls thought they were safe then, many Americans think their modern "walls" will secure them now..
FYI I'm European and worried about developments in the US, Russia AND the EU at present.. the world is a mess and it rapidly got worse when Bush became president of the USA.
Learn from the mistakes of others. There isn't enough time to make them all yourself.