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Nanobacteria Discovered?

mfh writes "The BBC is reporting that a new form of life has been discovered, nanobacteria, which was previously only theorized by Finnish researchers Kajander and Ciftcioglu. A team lead by Dr John Lieske of the Mayo Clinic claims they have found irrefutable evidence of the existence of nanobacteria, which is likely responsible for a plethora of illnesses."

267 comments

  1. Great. juuuust great. by Machine9 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Great. more reasons never to leave my desk. so many nasty little bugs out there ;)

    1. Re:Great. juuuust great. by kunudo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Well, there was an article on /. about how keyboards & desks were one of the most bacteria-infested places you could find. I'm too lazy to find a link...

    2. Re:Great. juuuust great. by Machine9 · · Score: 2, Funny

      yeah, but by now I'm utterly immune to those. Also, nobody but me gets to touch my keyboard to begin with.

    3. Re:Great. juuuust great. by Albanach · · Score: 1

      I'm ure it'll only be 12 months before adverts are telling us to take our daily milk drink with "healthy nanobacteria"

    4. Re:Great. juuuust great. by Alien54 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      1999 BBC report: Do nanobacteria rule Earth and Mars?
      Nanobacteria - Is Cardiovascular Disease an Infection??
      1998 Nanobacteria paper for biology geeks and Doctors

      bottom line, this stuff has been debated since 1985. Now someone claims to discover a new form of life? That's like not naming the new world Columbus discovered Columbia (with apologies to the American Indians, who were there all along) Plenty of prior art.

      Note also the results from the usual Google Search on NanoBacteria

      --
      "It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
    5. Re:Great. juuuust great. by AnonymousNoMore · · Score: 2, Funny

      Also, nobody but me gets to touch my keyboard to begin with.


      That's what you think. I saw Elaine Bennis coming out of your office the other night. I wouldn't touch your stapler if I was you.

    6. Re:Great. juuuust great. by invid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The article simply claims that this is new evidence. Blame michael for saying it is a new discovery.

      --
      The Moore-Murphy Law: The number of things that will go wrong will double every 2 years.
    7. Re:Great. juuuust great. by DynaSoar · · Score: 1

      "1999 BBC report: Do nanobacteria rule Earth and Mars? [bbc.co.uk]
      Nanobacteria - Is Cardiovascular Disease an Infection?? [noaw.com]
      1998 Nanobacteria paper for biology geeks and Doctors [doctorshealthsupply.com]
      bottom line, this stuff has been debated since 1985. Now someone claims to discover a new form of life? That's like not naming the new world Columbus discovered Columbia (with apologies to the American Indians, who were there all along) Plenty of prior art."

      All of which was speculation and initial findings. This article was corroboration, which nothing should be considered acceptable science without. As for naming, was not at least one of your references of an article by the same person the present article is about? He's still using the same name he gave it back then.

      --
      "I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
    8. Re:Great. juuuust great. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're mineral shingles from calcification, for crissake.

    9. Re:Great. juuuust great. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They test positive for nucleic acids... Of course; they were extracted from organic tissue that in addition to being messy in the first place, has undergone surgery and shed cell contents everywhere from incision damage.

    10. Re:Great. juuuust great. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      They're growing crystals.

      "But if you go back to how we defined life prior to our knowing about DNA, our criteria was that things multiplied in culture. This is what we have."

      There's a reason that archaic definition has been supplanted.

    11. Re:Great. juuuust great. by Snowmit · · Score: 1

      You mean: more reasons to get away from the filth- and pizza-encrusted mess you call a desk.

      NANOBACTERIA ON MY HANDS OH GOD THEY'RE CRAWLING OUT OF MY KEYBOARD

      --
      I have a lot of opinions about Cyborgs and Architects
    12. Re:Great. juuuust great. by Machine9 · · Score: 1

      I have diplomatic treaties with the pizza crusts, and bob, the tentacle thing that evolved in my fridge and passes me my beers.

    13. Re:Great. juuuust great. by cornjchob · · Score: 1

      The article simply claims that this is new evidence. Blame michael for saying it is a new discovery.

      Because Michael wrote the submission...

      If by now people here are unaware to RTFA to make sure nothing happened between the submitter (whether that submitter is a /. editor or not) reading the story and writing the synopsis, then I feel them no better than those who they down.

      However I don't feel that this is the case here, I'm just stating the obvious.

      --
      We now have confirmed reports from an informed Orange County minister that Ethel is still an active communist.
  2. More Info on Kajander's Site by bcolflesh · · Score: 5, Informative

    http://www.uku.fi/~kajander/

    1. Re:More Info on Kajander's Site by paranode · · Score: 2, Informative

      Tsk, tsk...

      This is Slashdot, we need a link somewhere.

    2. Re:More Info on Kajander's Site by nacturation · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yes, exactly. Unless we have a link, how are we going to *not* click it so we don't have to RTFA?

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
  3. bioweapons? by vijayiyer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Sounds like a new generation of biological weapons are waiting to be developed which would be far more difficult to detect...

    1. Re:bioweapons? by analog_line · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, the first thing is that not everyone actually agrees that these things are alive. They haven't been able to extract nucleic acids from the structures. So either we need better tools to extract them, or these nanobacteria function in an completely and utterly different way than the rest of life as we know it. Forget anabolic respiration and whatnot. There's obviously SOMETHING happening, however, as they're able to get this stuff to reproduce in culture.

      Once we've figured out what it actually is, then we can figure out how it's put together, then we can start tinkering with it, but my guess is that's going to be quite a ways off.

    2. Re:bioweapons? by zik · · Score: 2, Informative

      > They haven't been able to extract nucleic acids from the structures.

      Not true. The Mayo Clinic team paper (which this slashdot article was based on) claims that they've identified RNA and DNA from them.

      This New Scientist article has more detail.

      Nanobacteria have been known about for quite a few years, though as the above article points out their existence is still contraversial.

      All this is particularly interesting to me since my doctor has tested me for nanobacteria using an ELIZA test (an antibody-based test). I came up positive and have been under treatment with antibiotics (doxycycline) for some months. Subsequent tests have shown decreasing levels of the critters, and I'm hoping to be clear of them in a few months. So I'm hoping that they really exist or I've wasted a lot of effort and money!

      You might wonder why I'd subject myself to treatment for a thing that might not even exist. The answer is simple - I have chronic fatigue syndrome and anything which might cure it is worth trying. The latest research into chronic fatigue indicates that systemic infections of various bacteria (mycoplasma fermentans being one) and nanobacteria are implicated in many cases. But it's certainly not a conclusively proven remedy at this stage.

    3. Re:bioweapons? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      ...I have chronic fatigue syndrome and anything which might cure it is worth trying. The latest research into chronic fatigue indicates that systemic infections of various bacteria (mycoplasma fermentans being one) and nanobacteria are implicated in many cases.
      I have no trouble believing that. I've had a sinus infection for the last 18 months and it makes me feel absolutely terrible. An imperceptible infection with a strain that produces loads of toxins would do the same thing, but there'd be no other symptoms to trace it by.

      But doxycycline for nanobacteria? That seems more than a little absurd. Nanobacteria, if they exist, are likely to have radically different chemistry from ordinary bacteria. It would be somewhat surprising for them to be affected by the same antibiotics.

    4. Re:bioweapons? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is DNA a criteria for life?

      They are perplexed that these things are just too small to have DNA.

      Maybe they don't.

    5. Re:bioweapons? by hutkey · · Score: 1

      ...but isn't these nano bioweapons will coz damage on nano scale?

  4. This isn't that new by Paul+Townend · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    ....Slashdot readers have known about Darl McBride for a while now....

  5. So... by Roman+Levin · · Score: 5, Funny

    Do 10^9 nanobacteria make up a regular one?

    1. Re:So... by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      Of course not... is a kilobyte 10^3 bytes... no... it's 2^10... So obviously you need 2^30 nanobacteria to make up a regular one.

    2. Re:So... by Roman+Levin · · Score: 1, Funny

      Ah! But are the nanobacteria binary? And more to the point, can they run Linux?

    3. Re:So... by PateraSilk · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Imagine a Beowulf cluster of those!

      --
      Danke tres mucho, tovarishch.
    4. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's a supercomputer on the head of a pin!

    5. Re:So... by kpansky · · Score: 0, Redundant

      In Soviet Russia, nanobacteria make a human cluster to their new beowulf overlords!

      --

      --Kevin
    6. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I sure hope not. That would be a bactaria whose sized is measured in meters!

    7. Re:So... by linzeal · · Score: 1

      Yes, just like Voltron. Man, when I was young I used to imagine I was a sex slave of the pink voltron lady. That link brought back weird memories, I think it is time to kill them with IPA. Mmmmmmm.

  6. So how do we fight against infection from these? by Gunfighter · · Score: 2, Funny

    I guess I'd better hurry up and get my patent for the anti^H^H^H^Hnanobiotics submitted.

    --
    -- Stu

    /. ID under 2,000. I feel old now.
  7. Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by alanw · · Score: 5, Informative
    New Scientist has a longer article, which goes into more details of the politics between rival teams of scientists.

    See also the article by John Cisar (a sceptic) An alternative interpretation of nanobacteria-induced biomineralization

    1. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by InternationalCow · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Scepticism indeed seems warranted here. For one, it is telling that this "breakthrough" has appeared in a low-impact journal. What's even more important is that behaviour as shown by the "nanobacteria" can also be interpreted as being the consequence of conformational changes of proteins in solution induced by the particles. Mutated prions are also capable of doing so (they change the prion normal structure into a beta-sheet), thereby causing disease. Self-assembly of macromolecules also comes to mind as a potential explanation. It is therefore way too early to describe the structures found as "living". Do viruses live? Do prions "live"? They do not, but bacteria certainly do. Craig Venter has rather convincingly shown that most currently known living organisms require a minimum set of genes for metabolism and so on, ie a minimum amount of DNA, organelles, proteins and so on. If the nanobacteria are too small to contain all of that, which they do, I very much doubt they deserve the name bacterium. Their disease-causing potential is a different matter altogether, see the prion diseases. If these structures can accelerate atherosclerosis in model animals I would certainly be intrigued to say the very least.

      --
      ----- One learns to itch where one can scratch.
    2. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by cluckshot · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually the problem with publishing certain medical discoveries in the "Standard Outlets" is that they are "Standard Outlets." The discovery that stomach ulcers were bacteria caused was so contraversial that the MD who discovered it was nearly cashiered out of the profession. The fact of his ability to treat them effectively had no account. The fact that he had cultured H-Pilori had no account and got him no standing in the standard outlet journals for medicine.

      I have worked Heart Transplant Unit as RN. We knew early as 1992 that the causes of heart disease were Viral and Bacterial (Several causes). We also knew that Cholesterol had nothing to do with the problem.

      The presence of Homcystine an indicator of cellular destruction was a key indicator but not diagnostic because of other sources of destroyed cells.

      The arterial plaquing associated with heart disease is bacterial plaquing similar to that of tooth plaques caused by various bacteria most prominant of which is Hemolytic Strep A. What happens is during your life, you get an infection somewhere. Most likely it is in your gums. This infection seeds germs into the blood which find cavitation points in the body to hide out where the normal immune factors of the blood have a hard time getting to them. There they set up plaques to hold on and to defend themselves from the body. They grow essentially in stasis (very slowly) blooming out when the body defenses are weakened or the body oxygen level drops or the blood sugar level gets too high. These blooms are frequently the events people know as heart attack and stroke.

      It would be no surprise that some other agents such as a "Nano-Bacteria" were at the root of this stuff. I would suspect though that these are actually agents of control that are seeded out of the larger bacteria to control the host. Bacteria do this sort of thing a lot.

      --
      Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
    3. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by InternationalCow · · Score: 4, Informative

      Well, occasionally the standard outlets do have it wrong. Most of the times they just adhere to stringent standards of scientific correctness. Sometimes that is a disadvantage but it spares us from having to suffer through junk science most of the time. I would also like to politely disagree with you on the central role that bacteria play in atherosclerosis. Cholesterol has a lot to do with it, if you look at what happens to people suffering from congenital hypercholesterolemia. They die from atherosclerosis. Homocysteine is not there as a consequence of bacterial infestation but because of hyperhomocysteinemia, a rather common metabolic defect. There is currently no proof for a central role of bacterial/viral infection in atherosclerosis. There is also no proof to the contrary, but if you read your science philosophy you will realize that does not mean that your hypothesis is correct.

      --
      ----- One learns to itch where one can scratch.
    4. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by greenhide · · Score: 3, Funny

      What happens is during your life, you get an infection somewhere. Most likely it is in your gums.

      Dentists were overjoyed when they learned about this, by the way.

      Finally, a way to get people to floss:

      Floss, or you die.

      --
      Karma: Chevy Kavalierma.
    5. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by TykeClone · · Score: 3, Informative
      Floss, release those germs into your bloodstream, then die.

      Seriously though, I have a heart murmur and am required to take a good shot of penicillin before visiting the dentist for that very concern.

      --
      A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
    6. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I'm not sure if they have ruled out mycoplasma, which is an infectious agent smaller than 0.2 microns and postulated to be the smallest living organism. It doesn't have a cell wall, but the description given by the BBC is that the research saw what appeared to be a cell wall, and has not demonstrated its presence.

      I'm sure there are better resources about mycoplasma, but here is a starter:
      http://www.immuno-sci-lab.com/html/mycop lasma.html

    7. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by Sgt+York · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Although the mechanisms you describe are possibly valid mechanisms of CVD, they are by no means the only mechanisms. Some CVD may have nothing to do with cholesterol levels, etc. but certainly not all of them

      If CVD were caused solely by infection, then there would be no correlation to diet, provided immune function is accounted for (which is the case in most studies). Furthermore, if infection were the primary in CV events like stroke & heart attack, any person with cardiovascular disease that became immunosuppressed would have an immediate vascular event of some kind. Not all heart transplant patients have a stroke as soon as they are started on immunosuppressive drugs. In fact, most don't.

      I'm not saying that it's not possible that infection causes CVD, I think it probably does. I am saying, however, that it is not the only mechanism. Just like H./C. pylori infection is not the only cause of stomach ulcers. This is why a lot of "on the edge" theories don't get into 1st tier journals; they speak in absolutes. Scientists don't like it when the first paper on a subject comes right out and says "This IS the way it is, because of such and such". First papers on a subject are always considered preliminary, and should be worded as such. We have enough trouble with the media touting things as absolutes without our own ranks encouraging or feeding the behavior.

      By the way, Warren & Marshall's paper describing the effect of C. pyloriwas published in Lancet. Subsequent papers were in the Journal of Infectious Diseases, and Journal of Clinical Pathology. Hardly obscure journals. Techniques for screening people for the bacterium were developewd within four years of the first paper on the subject. Three years after the first paper attempting to fulfill Koch's postulates. Doesn't sound like he was kicked out of the field. A quick Pubmed search shows that they kept up a steady stream of journal articles, even to today.

      --

      There is a reason for everything. Sometimes that reason just sucks.

    8. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by RicoX9 · · Score: 4, Insightful


      IANIITMP (I Am Not Involved In The Medical Profession)
      </DISCLAIMER>

      Both of your comments make a lot of sense. It seems to me that it could very well be that high cholesterol provides an enviornment friendly to something like nano-bacteria (or whatever). Or that there is some other factor (such as an immune system vulnerability) that manifests as high cholesterol in people with a susceptibility to heart disease.

      What I'm trying to say is that one does not necessarily exclude the other. Both could be related. Maybe I'm not expressing this correctly, but then again, I'm in the profession of moving IP packets, not blood cells.

    9. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by seafortn · · Score: 1

      I would hardly call The Lancet a "non-standard" journal. Probably one of the most prestigious medical journals in the world. Overview of their discovery here:
      http://www.tallpoppies.net.au/floreymedal/winner19 98.htm
      Link to the first paper I could find published by Warren and Marshall on Pubmed (in, in fact, The Lancet)
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd= Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6145023
      Do your homework.

    10. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by simcop2387 · · Score: 1

      Maybe I'm not expressing this correctly, but then again, I'm in the profession of moving IP packets, not blood cells.

      Are you related to my boss? I've always suspected that he was not in the bussiness of moving blood cells around.

    11. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by swv3752 · · Score: 1

      I take a couple of amoxycillin pills. It must suck having to get a shot everyime.

      It was also recommended to use peroxide toothpaste and Listerine.

      --
      Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
    12. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 1

      they not only hold to stringent standards, but they also pick and chose based on what they believe

      --



      I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
    13. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by benzapp · · Score: 4, Informative

      Cholesterol has a lot to do with it, if you look at what happens to people suffering from congenital hypercholesterolemia.

      I think you should preface that with lipoproteins that are low density, due to the cholesterol being oxidized by heat.

      Cholesterol is one of the most necessary substances in your body, particularly the brain where lipoproteins are the largest component after water.

      Lets not forget there is 10 times as much cholesterol in human breast milk than protein, and that low blood levels of cholesterol is one of the few (and possibily the only) predictor of suicidal depression.

      This is actually a critical flaw in the modern medical establishment, particular in regards to cholesterol being given to infants. Not a single infant formula contains cholesterol, despite the copious amounts of the stuff in human milk. It is no wonder formula fed infants are dumber than average, the growth of their brain is severely restricted due to serious dietary deficiencies.

      Cholesterol that is undamaged by heat or any other energy source is necessary for human survival, and is not at all dangerous.

      --
      I don't read or respond to AC posts
    14. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by lukesl · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually the problem with publishing certain medical discoveries in the "Standard Outlets" is that they are "Standard Outlets." The discovery that stomach ulcers were bacteria caused was so contraversial that the MD who discovered it was nearly cashiered out of the profession. The fact of his ability to treat them effectively had no account. The fact that he had cultured H-Pilori had no account and got him no standing in the standard outlet journals for medicine.

      The flaw in your reasoning is the idea that the viability of nanobacteria is as easy to prove/falsify as the assertion that bacterium X causes disease Y. Medical science is driven by dogma, politics, etc. much more than basic science, as medical scientists have to deal with things that are harder to prove. The guy who figured out that H. pylori causes ulcers couldn't get anyone to listen because he couldn't perform the simple study to prove it, namely putting a bunch of people in cages and infecting them (or giving placebo), then waiting to see if they got ulcers. It wasn't until he drank a culture of the bugs himself and got an ulcer that anyone listened.

      On the other hand, if someone is making an extremely simple claim, like "these things in this tube are alive," there are extremely simple ways to test that. The fact that something "replicates" is certainly not convincing evidence for life, only for some sort of chemical reaction. It might be a really really interesting chemical reaction, but if someone "grows" a bunch of these nanobugs, but then can't isolate DNA from them, you have to be really suspicious, because isolating DNA from anything is a trivial procedure.

      Oh, BTW, what you're saying about heart disease is BS. You're confusing endocarditis with atherosclerosis, and in neither case are arterial plaques in any similar to dental plaque. IAAMDPHD.

    15. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by hak1du · · Score: 1

      Scepticism indeed seems warranted here. For one, it is telling that this "breakthrough" has appeared in a low-impact journal.

      High-impact journals select for, well, high impact, not for better quality. And there is plenty of junk science in Nature, Science, Cell, and other such journals.

      That doesn't mean I believe the nanobacteria results, but I wouldn't believe it any more than if it were published in some other journal.

    16. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by TykeClone · · Score: 1

      I meant shot as in about three horse pills - not in the literal sense of the word - meant no confusion.

      --
      A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
    17. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by jennygerbi · · Score: 1

      Of course, the way you truly know this is suspect, is that in reference to this work are the words "irrefutable", "plethora", and anything "nano"

      I'm a scientist, working with some thing considered nano, and even I'm getting tired of the phrase.

    18. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't cholesterol used by the body to insulate nerves and to keep the bilipd membranes that make cell walls from forming (solid) crystalline lattices?

    19. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by Mr.+Piddle · · Score: 2, Informative

      Floss, or you die.

      Or don't floss, or you die.

      We are seeing an advance in medicine from one generation to the next. Over the last century, flossing really improved quality of life, where the health of the teeth allowed less disease and longer lifespans.

      However, we are to a point where heart health is eclipsing tooth health in importance for avoiding disease and prolonging life, and flossing is actually one way to introduce bacteria into the bloodstream.

      I expect there will be some mainstream debate about this over the next few decades. Especially given that people who don't floss still can have healthy teeth and gums and avoid bad breath (fluoridated water, good quality toothpaste, improved toothbrushes, low glycemic index diets becoming more popular, etc.).

      --
      Vote in November. You won't regret it.
    20. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No No Nano ....

    21. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by dasunt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Cholesterol is one of the most necessary substances in your body, particularly the brain where lipoproteins are the largest component after water.

      Cholesterol that is undamaged by heat or any other energy source is necessary for human survival, and is not at all dangerous.

      That is rather misleading.

      Yes, people do need cholesterol.

      No, people do not need to consume cholesterol.

      Your body makes all the cholesterol it can ever use.

      Cholesterol is only available from animal sources. If humans needed cholesterol to survive, strict vegetarians (vegans) would be dropping dead left and right.

      I am unfamiliar with the cholesterol-depression link, so I did a quick google search. While some studies have shown a correlation between low cholesterol and depression, others have not.

      There was a large Finnish study that linked depression to low cholesterol, but this was in spite of similar diets between the depressed group and the control group.

      In another study I found a reference to, cholesterol-lowering drugs did not increase the risk of depression.

      Correlation is one thing. Causation is another.

      There are many factors that cause low cholesterol and may cause, or result from, depression. The liver produces about 800mg's of cholesterol daily, and many factors (diet, drinking, disease) can hinder the functioning of the liver.

      In a similar example, low cholesterol can be linked to a higher risk of stroke -- the type of stroke that results from hemorrhagic bleeding in the brain. However, hemorrhagic stroke can be caused by low potassium levels -- which will also lower cholesterol levels.

      Be careful when the mass media runs with a "health" story -- too often, the size of the study is too small to draw meaningful conclusions from, or the mass media likes to blow the results out of proportion. Remember when they reported that coffee "causes" cancer? Or that coffee "prevents" cancer? (Search for "coffee" and "cancer" at google to find both sorts or reports.)

      Its good that you are taking an interest in your health and your diet. But learn nutrition from books and journals -- not from magazines, newspapers, and TV.

    22. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by Guido+von+Guido · · Score: 2, Informative
      While I don't know enough about the cholesterol issue to comment intelligently, I will point out that the fact that a particular substance is neceessary does not mean that excess amounts can't be harmful.

      Look at Vitamin D3. While necessary, excess amounts are most assuredly harmful. Vitamin D3 and variants are used in rat poison.

      By the way, this also means that yes, they do put rat poison in milk.

    23. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by benzapp · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, people do not need to consume cholesterol. Your body makes all the cholesterol it can ever use.

      Provide your source. your body also makes Vitamins B1, B3, and B6 but you will be deficient if you do not eat enough of it. Further, that ability exists in infants from the moment they are born. Why would the need to consume cholesterol only apply to infants, in stark contradiction to many other vitamins and hormones including those I just mentioned? Or do you think cholesterol is in mother's milk out of some freak coincidence?

      Cholesterol is only available from animal sources. If humans needed cholesterol to survive, strict vegetarians (vegans) would be dropping dead left and right.

      The vast majority of vegans do not remain that way for extended periods of time. Further, when they do binge it is often on dairy products that contain substantial amounts of cholesterol. Cholesterol is used by your body to produce lipoproteins which comprise cell membranes. All cellular growth thus requires cholesterol. Where do vegans have major problems? Reproduction and muscle growth. The number of cases of low birth weight and spontaneous abortion are quite high amongst vegans. All the medical evidence clearly indicates veganism is dangerous.

      Correlation is one thing. Causation is another.

      Well, you must have a PhD in statistics! Thank you so much for that enlightening knowledge. Perhaps you are unaware, but the whole of medical knowledge is based on theories and the use of statistics to support them. causation, on the micro level, is almost impossible to prove. Science today is entirely based on probability.

      Its good that you are taking an interest in your health and your diet. But learn nutrition from books and journals -- not from magazines, newspapers, and TV.

      Ahh yes, can you name one newspaper article or television show that discusses anything I just mentioned, specially the points you selectively challenged and that I will shortly dismiss with numerous references to journals? No, I didn't think so. Fortunately for you, I actual DO read medical journals, and not just bullshit on slashdot. Have fun reading, of course you won't however... as this completely conflicts with your preconceived notions of proper diet (no serious student of medicine would give any credit to veganism)

      The following citations can be found on the National Library of Medicine

      low blood levels of cholesterol are linked with decreased immunity
      (1)Weverling-Rijnsburger, A.W. et al, Total cholesterol and risk of mortality in the oldest old. Lancet 1997 / 350 (9085) / 1119-1123. ,

      (2)Forette ,B. et al, Cholesterol as risk factor for mortality in elderly women. Lancet 1989 / 1 (8643) / 868-870.

      (3)Isles, C.G. et al, Plasma cholesterol, coronary heart disease, and cancer in the Renfrew and Paisley survey. Brit. Med. J. 1989 / 298 (6678) / 920-924.

      (4)Rose, G. & M.J. Shipley, Plasma lipids and mortality : a source of error. Lancet 1980 / 1 (8167) / 523-526.

      Low blood levels of cholesterol impair brain and liver function

      (1)Xu, G. et al, Relationship between abnormal cholesterol synthesis and retarded learning in rats. Metabolism 1998 / 47 (7) / 878-882.

      (2)Schoknecht, P.A. et al, Dietary cholesterol supplementation improves growth and behavioural response of pigs selected for genetically high and low serum cholesterol. Nutr.1994 / 124 (2) / pag.305-314.

      (3)Hague, Z.U. et al, Importance of dietary cholesterol for the maturation of mouse brain myelin. Biosc. Biotech. Biochem. 1992 / 56 (8) / 1351-1354.

      low cholesterol is associated with severe pathological behavior

      (1)Golomb BA, et al, Low cholesterol and violent crime. J Psychiatr Res 2000 Jul-Oct;34(4-5):301-9.

      (2)Hillbrand M, et al, Serum cholesterol concentrations and mood states in violent psychiat

      --
      I don't read or respond to AC posts
    24. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by benzapp · · Score: 1

      Cholesterol is used in the production of ALL cell membranes. Think about it, LIPOPROTEIN. What do we know about lipids? they repel water. Cholesterol is used to provide structure to fat, and allow it to be used for something other than purely its energy potential. Due to the hydrophobic properties of lipids, cells can maintain their shape as the fat pushes the water away equally allowing the classic sphere to form. This is also why your brain has so much cholesterol. It is basically just water with tons of cells very lossely interconnected.

      --
      I don't read or respond to AC posts
    25. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by benzapp · · Score: 1

      read my other post, thats why I make the distinction between oxylesterols and cholesterols that are technically different. I even cited an article about pigs being fed enormous quantities of egg sourced cholesterol with no change in blood serum levels. I personally consuming at least a half dozen egg yolks a day (5 times the USRDA maximum) and have a cholesterol level in the bottom 5% of Americans.

      There is an entire process of breaking down excess cholesterol, but it doesn't work with oxylesterols. I didn't detail this in my other post.

      Further, your point is true for all substances. Yeah, water is fatal at doses only 20 times greater than the average serving size (12 ounce glass)

      --
      I don't read or respond to AC posts
    26. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      It is therefore way too early to describe the structures found as "living". Do viruses live? ... They do not, but bacteria certainly do.
      Sure, viruses live. They're just very picky about the growth medium. (Only halfway joking--some of the so-called higher organisms are pickier about the growth medium than most viruses, to the point of almost being unculturable, yet we don't give up on them as inanimate matter.)
      Craig Venter has rather convincingly shown that most currently known living organisms require a minimum set of genes for metabolism and so on, ie a minimum amount of DNA, organelles, proteins and so on.
      With "currently known" written in four foot tall letters. Currently known organisms are the highly-refined, highly-specialized product of a billion years of natural selection. They transcribe the genome to peptides because it is beneficial, not because it is strictly necessary. Likewise for the huge array of synthetic and shephard proteins and compounds.

      There is considerable evidence that early cells were very simple and used substantially different chemistry than higher cells. The strongest direct evidence is ribosomes, enzymes that are built not just of peptides, but also of RNA itself. For such a bizarre structure to be so universally conserved strongly suggests that primeval cells made extensive use of nucleotides as machinery, perhaps even exclusively. Such cells would be expected to compete poorly against modern protein-using cells, but that does not guarantee they would go extinct. It means they would be relegated to odd ecological niches, as with the superkingdom archae.

      I'm very skeptical too. But I find it appalling that so many are dogmatically rejecting the possibility out of hand, basically because it wasn't mentioned in their undergrad textbook. As the other poster says, it's reminescent of the helicobacter pylori-ulcer connection. The dogmatic drones wouldn't even listen to solid evidence. The discoverers had to innoculate people with the organism and cause the disease before they could get the time of day.

    27. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      High-impact journals select for, well, high impact, not for better quality. And there is plenty of junk science in Nature, Science, Cell, and other such journals.

      Yeah, an impact factor of 30 doesn't mean all that much if half of those citing articles are essentially saying "bullshit." I suspect the retraction rate is much higher on average for these journals than for the good second-tier journals like JMB.

    28. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by Valdrax · · Score: 1

      Excellent set of posts. I've been reading up on this for a while myself and would like to know if I can find the articles you cited online. Do you have any links to help find them?

      --
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    29. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by Photon+Ghoul · · Score: 1

      I personally consuming at least a half dozen egg yolks a day (5 times the USRDA maximum) and have a cholesterol level in the bottom 5% of Americans.

      What kind of diet are you adhering to? You eat at least 6 eggs per day? I hope you're at least taking a supplement to go along with your steady diet of yolks.

    30. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by easyCoder · · Score: 1

      If CVD were caused solely by infection, then there would be no correlation to diet

      Unless the bacteria were relying on nutrients in our bloodstream.

      Furthermore, if infection were the primary in CV events like stroke & heart attack, any person with cardiovascular disease that became immunosuppressed would have an immediate vascular event of some kind.

      Unless it is a cumulative effect, like a bloom that protects itself by "plaquing".

      This is why a lot of "on the edge" theories don't get into 1st tier journals; they speak in absolutes.

      I found some absolutes in your argument that you might want to go and correct.

    31. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by dasunt · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, people do not need to consume cholesterol. Your body makes all the cholesterol it can ever use.

      Provide your source. your body also makes Vitamins B1, B3, and B6 but you will be deficient if you do not eat enough of it. Further, that ability exists in infants from the moment they are born. Why would the need to consume cholesterol only apply to infants, in stark contradiction to many other vitamins and hormones including those I just mentioned? Or do you think cholesterol is in mother's milk out of some freak coincidence?

      Perhaps its a fluke -- blood, fecal material, semen and urine all contain cholesterol (a quick google search can comfirm this). Cholesterol is *needed* throughout the body, and its no big surprise that it can be found in almost anything that comes from the body.

      However, assuming that cholesterol is needed by infants (which I see no evidence of), infant nutritional requirements are different from adult human requirements. I am not an expert on fetus or infant development, and I do not know when the liver becomes fully functional at producing cholesterol.

      Cholesterol is only available from animal sources. If humans needed cholesterol to survive, strict vegetarians (vegans) would be dropping dead left and right.

      The vast majority of vegans do not remain that way for extended periods of time. Further, when they do binge it is often on dairy products that contain substantial amounts of cholesterol. Cholesterol is used by your body to produce lipoproteins which comprise cell membranes. All cellular growth thus requires cholesterol. Where do vegans have major problems? Reproduction and muscle growth. The number of cases of low birth weight and spontaneous abortion are quite high amongst vegans. All the medical evidence clearly indicates veganism is dangerous.

      Er, what?

      Vegan's major problems are B12 and DHA/EPA Omega 3's. The former is solved through B12-fortified foods, while the later is delt with by high Alpha-Linolenic Acid intakes and limiting the amount of Linoleic Acid ( or, in layman's terms -- limit the use of most fat and use some flaxseed/flaxseed oil each day. )

      Before you get too smug, DHA/EPA levels in the Standard American Diet are a problem as well. The Standard American Diet is rather nasty in some respects, and is far from healthy.

      For "medical evidence", try Ellis, et al, in Great Britain, 1970 -- in a study comparing 26 vegans to 24 non-vegans, other then a small B12 deficiency in 3 vegans, the vegans were healthier then the non-vegans. Sanders and Ellis, Great Britain, 1978 compared 34 vegans to 23 non-vegans and showed that all nutrients were in their normal range, even if serum B12 was low. O'Connell et al, in the USA 1989, had a study of 288 vegans and 116 lacto-ovo vegetarians, the vegans had adequate growth and no significant different in height and weight by age 10. (OTOH, Shinwell & Gorodischer, in Israel, and P.C. Dagnalie et al both showed health problems in vegan infants, but those pertained to homemade soymilk "infant formulas".)

      Unfortunately, there is no large studies involving vegans compared to a non-vegan control group with a similar environment. (Vegetarians are lucky -- a large percentage of Seventh Day Adventists are vegetarian, and thus can be easily compared against non-vegetarian Seventh Day Adventists.)

      As for pregnancy, in a study by Carter, et al, in 1987, involving 775 vegan women from Tennessee, the vegan diet did not affect infant birth weight, and vegan mothers had a rate of preeclampsia of 1 in 775 [0.1% of the population as opposed to 5% - 10% of normal mothers]

      As a vegan, I have yet to drop dead without any cholesterol in my diet. I'm very strict about animal products, and religiously read labels to doublecheck ingredients. Tell me when I should drop dead of cholesterol deficiency, and I'll try.

    32. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by benzapp · · Score: 1

      You can search for all of them on the national institute of health link I provided. The links to actual articles are not constant, and there are too many for actually link to. For many of them, you might only be able to find the capsule summary without becoming a member to that particular group.

      Best bet is if you go to a university with a medical school, look them up there as they definitely have an account.

      --
      I don't read or respond to AC posts
    33. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by benzapp · · Score: 1

      I generally don't argue with vegans as their religious devotion is too much for me to handle, but since I just drank down 6 raw egg yolks and had a nice 4 ounce piece of raw salmon, right after my weight lifting session where I lifeted a cumulative total of 3000 pounds, I am feeling pretty pumped.

      However, assuming that cholesterol is needed by infants (which I see no evidence of),

      Lets see, human milk is minium 15% cholesterol. No other species has a cholesterol concentration anywhere NEAR that amount... Your body is about efficiency. It doesn't make ANYTHING it doesn't need, and if it is abundant in the diet, your body stops making it over time. The classic example is vitamin c. Resources are too precious in nature to waste on something like that... Are you incapable of thinking?

      The former is solved through B12-fortified foods, while the later is delt with by high Alpha-Linolenic Acid intakes and limiting the amount of Linoleic Acid ( or, in layman's terms -- limit the use of most fat and use some flaxseed/flaxseed oil each day. )

      If you want to eat foods made by machines, go for it. I prefer to survive on food that is 100% natural, grown straight from the earth and brought to my hands.

      As far as all your studies, I would certainly be interested in reading them. Unfortunately, you forgot the critical part! The actual journal name!

      Tell me when I should drop dead of cholesterol deficiency, and I'll try.

      Why don't you tell mewhere I said you would drop dead. THe human body is amazingly resilient, and can cope with deficiencies for a very, very long time. The simple fact people live as long as they do eating McDonald's every day is evidence of that.

      The issue is what sort of quality of life do you have? If you are a woman, odds are you are going to experience some form of depression in your life and probably already experience depression during menstruation (production of the uteran wall requires a tremendous amount of cholesterol). You aren't going to have a large family, if any family at all.

      Chances are you are not particularly attractive irrespective of your gender. You are probably thin, but beautiful you are not.

      If you are a man, you lack any and all muscle definition. No one will be building sculptures of you. You don't have a powerful sex drive, and you likely have feminine features.

      Either way, you also suffer from frequent bouts of constipation due to your excessive consumption of wheat opioid peptides. You probably don't notice that ALL "vegan" cheeses contain casein, a milk protein which is decomposed to an opioid peptide during digestion. They never tell you where it comes from either... MILK

      See, buddy, I study diet and nutrition heavily, I know literally hundreds of vegans in my progressive city. Sadly, I have to shop at the same specialty stores as my diet is almost vegan except for the egg yolks and raw fish. I have never met one that in any way approaches an ideal human. Every female vegan I know looks at least 5 years older than she really is. None of the females have supple breasts or healthy hair. Every man looks like a pathetic weakling. A huge number of vegan chicks I know have been or are currently taking psychotropic medications.

      You are right, there aren't any perfect statistics on this matter, but my own personal experiences confirm my research perfectly.

      If that is the future you want for yourself, so be it. Personally, I don't care. There are way too many people on this planet as it is, perhaps vegans are destined to cull the herd through their own self destruction.

      If you are still young however, think about it.

      --
      I don't read or respond to AC posts
    34. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Do viruses live? Do prions "live"? They do not, but bacteria certainly do.

      this is stupid, and one of the major mental blocks holding back biology as a science. "alive" and "dead" are human-invented mental shortcuts; once we finally discover something inbetween (imho, viruses already are), we will be confronted to re-evaluate our arbitrary notions of life and death.

      personally, i prefer terminology borrowed from norbert wiener's cybernetics -- entropy versus order. heat-death / pure chaos most certainly denotes what we're probably really thinking of when we say "dead"; whereas order represents "life". viruses are most certainly alive in my book; that includes _computer_ viruses as well.

    35. Re:Sceptical articles on nanobacteria by Sgt+York · · Score: 1
      Unless the bacteria were relying on nutrients in our bloodstream.

      That is a good point, but it stil doesn't answer all of the data regarding diet/CVD relationships. It also does not account for the deposition of the plaques in the first place. They are of a different compostition than the particles, and it is theorized that the particles arrive after plaque formation. Besides, for most any bacterium in our blood the limiting factors to growth would be metals (iron, potassium, magnesium), not carbon source. Granted, in an unknown and proposed organism, the limiting factor could be helium for all we know.

      Unless it is a cumulative effect, like a bloom that protects itself by "plaquing".

      I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. It was proposed that bloom is responsible for the CVA's, and that these blooms are brought about by suppression/depression of the immune system. In a person in which plaques are found that is immunosuppressed, there is not normally an immediate CVA. In fact, that event is quite rare.

      I found some absolutes in your argument that you might want to go and correct.

      /. is not exactly Cell. It's not even on par with the Lithuanian Journal of Epithelial Disease, and I would not expect this to go anywhere near a reviewer. Besides, the primary thrust of my post was that although this may be a contributing factor in CVD, it is most likely not the sole reason for it. Not exactly an absolute.

      --

      There is a reason for everything. Sometimes that reason just sucks.

  8. Not everyone agrees by not_a_product_id · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't think this is proven yet. Some comments from other scientist in the BBC piece suggest that the methods they used can be prone to false positives. This is probably a good one to RTFM!

    --

    ---
    We spoke for about a half an hour. I don't recall a thing we said. - Colorblind James Experience

    1. Re:Not everyone agrees by belmolis · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Granting that the answer isn't in, it seems to me that the false positives issue only concerns whether the particles contain DNA, which isn't the critical issue. If they are multiplying in culture, that means they're alive, at least as life has been defined until now. Of course there might be some other explanation for the change in optical density of the fluid. The articles don't seem to say why they can't do a more direct count of the particles.

      I have to admit, my first reaction to the headline was that it was about SCO.

    2. Re:Not everyone agrees by not_a_product_id · · Score: 1

      I was sort of assuming they were suggesting that it was something other than the nanobacteria that was growing. I have to confess I didn't read the more detailed scientific articles - my 2 years of High School biology (I concentrated on doing badly at physics) doesn't put me in a good position to evaluate the specifics of the false positives arguments

      --

      ---
      We spoke for about a half an hour. I don't recall a thing we said. - Colorblind James Experience

    3. Re:Not everyone agrees by krmt · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I read the PNAS article that was written by one of the critics. His claims that it's due to the aggregation of some other mineral particle, such as apatite, and has evidence to suggest that this is possible. He also does DNA sequence comparisons to demonstrate that there is a very strong similarity between the putative nanobacterial sequence and a common bacterial sequence for a certain very old (and therefore very well conserved over time) gene, indicating that it may be due to contamination.

      While this evidence isn't very compelling in itself, it does cast a lot of doubt in my mind on how these nanobacteria could work. The DNA staining is very inconclusive (no distinct chromosomes), and even the culture conditions for the nanobacteria (including an experiment where they further dilute the nanobacteria culture and get no growth at all) make things very tenuous.

      I'd personally like to see a genetic sequence for these things. I'd also love to hear an answer as to how they can replicate with such a small amount of DNA. I certaintly don't want to say that it's impossible for these things to exist, but the data so far is definitely inconclusive. Multiplication in serum does not equal life.

      --

      "I may not have morals, but I have standards."

  9. Re:I hate bugs by Roman+Levin · · Score: 1

    Um... bacteria aren't viruses.

  10. It's no wonder... by Anti+Frozt · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    that, with all the nanobacteria at the Mayo Clinic, Mr. Burn's got Three Stooges Syndrome.

    --
    In C++, friends can touch each others private parts.
  11. Re:The office by Robmonster · · Score: 1

    Cue the obligatory "Only on MS machines" comments....

    --
    I have no sig yet I must scream.
  12. masks? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting


    What size particules can standard biofilter masks remove? The kind that the military use? Medical?

    1. Re:masks? by jeff4747 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Uusually they will say somewhere on the package.

      The gist is that the ones designed to block bio-warfare agents block out viruses, which are still smaller than nanobacteria.

      More commonly available masks, such as surgical masks, aren't designed to block as much, so nanobacteria may be able to get through them.

    2. Re:masks? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
      The gist is that the ones designed to block bio-warfare agents block out viruses, which are still smaller than nanobacteria.

      Quoth the article:

      The team found tiny spheres ranging in size from 30-100 nanometres (nm - billionths of a metre), which is smaller even than many viruses.

    3. Re:masks? by EulerX07 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Surgical masks are more about keeping things "in" then keeping them "out". When someone's abdomen is opened and all the organs are exposed, you don't want whatever is inside the doctor's and nurse's mouth to get a free ride to vital organs.

    4. Re:masks? by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      which is smaller even than many viruses

      Note the key word "many" in that sentence. Virii come in many sizes, including ones smaller than the nanobacteria.

    5. Re:masks? by hutkey · · Score: 1

      Masks and respirators are basically equivalent - they each are filters. The key with a coronavirus such as SARS is to have a filter capable of stopping particles as small as 0.1 microns. Most Respirators only stop particles down to 0.3 microns with high efficiency and most surgical masks only stop particles down to 1 microns, which is good enough for most bacteria, but not for viruses. Here's one mask that fits the bill:MaskDepot The seal with the face on a surgical mask can be improved with surgical tape.

      The idea behind wearing a mask is that it doesn't block individual virus "particles" as it were, but the larger water droplets that are believed to spread the virus.

      A human hair is roughly 100 microns in diameter. Human coronaviruses measure between .1 and .2 microns, which is one to two times below the cutoff.

  13. great.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    but how exactly do these buggers work? they're surely larger than viruses. Are they called bacteria because they are, in fact, bacteria, or just resemble them?
    And what diseases do they cause?

    --Eoban

  14. Photo Album by $exyNerdie · · Score: 4, Informative
  15. Re:So how do we fight against infection from these by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    you owe me royalties for the "^H^H, myback space key is not mapped, but I realing wanted to state what came before"

    Send $10 to:
    10000001 I am not original ave,
    Redmond.

  16. Life by solarlux · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A very interesting discovery. In addition to potential breakthroughs in medical research, I wonder if these discoveries might shed some light on the evolution of the first procaryotes...

    1. Re:Life by corsican · · Score: 1
      It might, if macroevolution had any scientific validity at all.

      --
      --If something I said could be taken two ways, and one of those ways made you cry, then I meant the other way.
  17. Lucas has the TradeMark by The+Jon · · Score: 5, Funny

    one word: medichlorians.

    --
    umop apisdn aw pow f,uop aseald :umop aw pow 'dn aw pow
    1. Re:Lucas has the TradeMark by valnour · · Score: 1

      I for one, welcome our new medichlorian overlords.

      --
      Trust No One
  18. How long before... by Raleel · · Score: 1, Insightful

    we start seeing "Lysol, effective against nanobacteria!"

    seriously, sometimes you wish things wouldn't be discovered, because the people in the world cannot handle them. they run around "OMG! the end of the world is near because I've got bacteria!"

    too much living in fear...

    --
    -- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --
    1. Re:How long before... by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      If yout want to have fun with people like this, just point out that there are more bacteria in and on their body than human cells. We're more bacteria than human. Then watch them start scrubbing away at the sink.

  19. Goverment in danger! by carvalhao · · Score: 0, Troll

    If these bacteria happen to attack micro-brains, our government is doomed!!!

  20. Ok... by dirtsurfer · · Score: 2, Funny

    now, how long until we have nanoyogurt?

    1. Re:Ok... by Pragmatix · · Score: 1

      Nano-yogurt would do us no good until someone invents the nano-spoon.

  21. Prions? by VC · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How big are prions? are these classed as bacteria simply because they have "cell walls"?

    1. Re:Prions? by ChibiLZ · · Score: 2, Informative
      Prions are not classed as bacteria, as prions contain no nucleic acids (RNA, DNA). IANAD, but I believe that prions are nothing more than slightly twisted protein structures that can react in nasty ways with your normal biological processes. They're not built like normal cells. Prion is actually short for proteinaceous infectious particle.

      Here is more information on prions.

      --
      Don't buy WoW Gold! Make it yourself!
    2. Re:Prions? by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The argument goes deeper than cell walls (or the lack thereof). The fundamental difference is that prions aren't "life" in any sense that we recognize the word -- they're just misfolded bits of protein that, apparently, somehow, force other proteins to assume their shape. The proposed nanobacteria have DNA and a means of reproducing themselves in the same way larger cells do.

      The reason for the controversy is that cellular metabolism and reproduction (the basic requirements for life) are fairly complex processes which require fairly complex molecular machinery, and these critters seem to be too small to contain that machinery. Geek analogy: suppose someone claimed to have invented a computer the size of a wristwatch that had the same processing power as a building-size supercomputer. It would be fascinating, but we'd be right to be skeptical.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    3. Re:Prions? by Glog · · Score: 1

      Prions do not have cell walls. In fact, prions are not living organisms at all. Prions are mis-folded proteins that somehow manage to cause other proteins to misfold as well. This is what causes the brain-wasting effect in infected hosts.

  22. Re:Mayo clinic by grub · · Score: 5, Funny


    The Mayo Clinic is named after the famed 19th century doctor Charles Mayonowski. His family moved to the US from Poland in 1857 where they changed their name to remove the ethnicity of it (this was the mid 1800s, remember)

    Charles was born in January 1850 but the exact date isn't known. He was an average student in early school but showed a strong interest in biology. His father would often find him in the barn late at night dissecting newborn piglets.

    In 1869, Charles went to England to attend school at Oxford. He later received his medical degree but had to come back to America after suspicion was cast on him when several dozen fresh graves were robbed of their corpses and were later found wrapped in burlap in the university incinerators. (the bodies showed signs of expert dissection).

    Moving to Minnesota, he founded a small clinic for the poor. Many of the patients disappeared but Mayo was found to be an excellent practitioner all around. When he died the funeral was attended by over 20,000 people. Many of them relatives of the poor who disappeared (and were presumed dissected) but knew of the importance of the knowledge he gleaned from his bloody experiments.

    Actually... that's all bullshit. Sorry.

    --
    Trolling is a art,
  23. RTFA by Alomex · · Score: 4, Informative

    r John Lieske of the Mayo Clinic claims they have found irrefutable evidence of the existence of nanobacteria.

    They do not claim such a thing. They claim to have found potential evidence of the existence of nanobacteria. Alternate explanations of the evidence have already been given (false positive DNA test, for one).

    potential != irrefutable

  24. eye four won by trix_e · · Score: 1, Funny

    welcome our new nanobacteria overlords...

    if only I had a 6nm can o' Duffs to present as a tribute.... Doh!

    --
    No man is an island, but Gary is a city in Indiana.
    1. Re:eye four won by boogy+nightmare · · Score: 1

      Ahhh but there is an Isle of Man :)

      Here it is [CIA :)]

      --
      Kingdom of Loathing (www.kingdomofloathing.com) Addicted is me
  25. BBC Can't spell by nebaz · · Score: 0

    nannobacteria? Come on! Not just once, but several times in the article.

    --
    Rhymes that keep their secrets will unfold behind the clouds.There upon the rainbow is the answer to a neverending story
    1. Re:BBC Can't spell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suppose you would say killometer then too.

    2. Re:BBC Can't spell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you will find that the BBC got the spelling from mississippi state univeristy.
      Nanobacteria Photo Gallery [msstate.edu]

    3. Re:BBC Can't spell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No... Miles

    4. Re:BBC Can't spell by nebaz · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, pass me some crow. After checking some of the replies, an anonymous coward wrote

      I think you will find that the BBC got the spelling from mississippi state univeristy.

      Wondering where he found that information, I clicked on the "Related Links" link from the BBC article, did a little more clicking, and found the following excepts from this article

      After many puzzling months, RLF finally went to the Biology library and found that, yes, dwarfed bacterial cells were known, variously called spores, resting stages, or ultramicrobacteria. Along the way, a friend stopped by to examine the photos and said that these looked like what had been called "nannobacteria" (term coined by R. Y. Morita in 1988).. So Folk adopted that term, analogous to "nannoplankton" or "nannofossils" common terms in geology dating back to the 1800's.

      Guess it's not the BBC's fault after all, though I still prefer "nanobacteria".

      --
      Rhymes that keep their secrets will unfold behind the clouds.There upon the rainbow is the answer to a neverending story
  26. Re:Are they sure it's not just a virus? by grub · · Score: 1

    Atkins is used to lose weight, these critters are already smaller than viruses.

    --
    Trolling is a art,
  27. I think it's time for ... by millahtime · · Score: 1

    I think it's time for Lysol nanobacteria disenfectant.

    1. Re:I think it's time for ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I think it's time for Lysol nanobacteria disenfectant.

      No way, its all that crap that gets us in trouble, sorta like nuking the Marshal islands every few thousand years, god only knows what will grow back. I see my bacteria as my army of Minions which can attack and destroy those nasty nano-bugs like a person squashing a cockroach. I'm nice to them, so they are nice to me and kick out any bad bugs that think about moving in.

    2. Re:I think it's time for ... by Tukla · · Score: 1
      sorta like nuking the Marshal islands every few thousand years,

      Hey, I thought that was a great idea. The golfball-sized head lice are way easier to see than the old, tiny kind.

    3. Re:I think it's time for ... by fcolari · · Score: 1

      "I think it's time for Lysol nanobacteria disenfectant." I saw it at Target. It comes in verrry tiny spray bottles...

      --
      "The first rule of intelligent tinkering is to save all the pieces." --Aldo Leopold (Paraphrased)
  28. Well, at least that explains by unassimilatible · · Score: 4, Funny
    All my nanorashes and nanoitching and nanoburning.

    --
    Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
    1. Re:Well, at least that explains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it still doesn't explain your nanoschlong...

  29. Oh great... by russh347 · · Score: 0

    We've slashdotted the Mayo Clinic.

  30. Ciftcioglu eh?? by CajunArson · · Score: 4, Funny

    Look's like Cthulu's cousin is getting busy!

    --
    AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
    1. Re:Ciftcioglu eh?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While the summary implies them to be Finnish, Ciftcioglu is apparently a Turkish name.

    2. Re:Ciftcioglu eh?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually Neva Ciftcioglu is Turkish

  31. Re:Mayo clinic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Best. +5 Funny. Ever.

  32. i wonder... by millahtime · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I wonder, could regular bacteria get infected by nanobacteria.

    1. Re:i wonder... by martinX · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why not. Regular bacteria get viral infections, aka bacteriophages. There is also considerable bacteria-bacteria transfer of genetic material via plasmids and transposons. All that nice, neat, tidy stuff you learned in Intro Biology ... it's bullshit. It's a jungle out there.

      Whenever you have biology neatly defined, something will come along to blow that out of the water and add another layer of complexity. It just keeps going and going and...

      --
      When they came for the communists, I said "He's next door. Take him away. Goddam commies."
    2. Re:i wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I wonder, could regular bacteria get infected by nanobacteria.
      Sure. That's how higher cells obtained mitochondria and chloroplasts.
  33. Another blow to the creationist argument by xutopia · · Score: 0, Flamebait
    that bacteria and viruses are just too big and have no ancestors that they could have evolved from.

    This is yet another piece of evidence for the evolutionary theory. I'm so glad we keep on discovering new stuff even today to stick it to those creationists.

    1. Re:Another blow to the creationist argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's no evidence that the evolutionary theory is superior in argument than the creationist theory.

    2. Re:Another blow to the creationist argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes there is.

    3. Re:Another blow to the creationist argument by adlj · · Score: 1

      actually, it's more likely that viruses are downgraded bacteria, which lost the part they don't need anymore (since they use the corresponding host parts)... the thing could be different for these nanobacs, though... (I mean, if they really exist)

    4. Re:Another blow to the creationist argument by Decaff · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Oh well, I know I am going to regret this, but here goes.

      Evolutionary theory is superior in argument because:

      (1) It is simpler (all you need is simple life + mutations + time, against big pre-formed superintelligence in the sky)
      (2) It conforms to Occams Razor. If life looks like it has evolved (true), and there are easy to understand mechanisms by which it could have evolved (true), the simplest explanation is that it has evolved.
      (3) It is not sacreligious. If you are religious and you don't believe in evolution, the only alternative is that someone has put a lot of effort into trying to fool us into believing it happened. That is hardly the behaviour of a nice deity, is it?

    5. Re:Another blow to the creationist argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually, to make this a true statement, it should be recast as "While there is a great deal of evidence to support evolutionary theory, only a few paragraphs in a 2000 year old book support creationism."

      Glad to help. Thanks for playing.

    6. Re:Another blow to the creationist argument by zulux · · Score: 0, Offtopic


      One reasonable accommodation between evl and a belief of a god is:
      Perhaps god is lazy - and just set the wheels of evolution in motion.

      In fact, if god exists he/she/it acts like I did when I got my fist Sim City game - I micro managed everything for a while, then flooded it and released the monsters - then I got bored an let the thing run by itself.

      --

      Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.

    7. Re:Another blow to the creationist argument by corsican · · Score: 1
      Agh. Now I've got to respond. Thanks a lot.

      Evolution is not scientific because it has never been observed or reproduced. A great deal of evolutionary theory is dedicated to making excuses why there are NO intermediate forms of any organism.

      Bacteria recovered from the bodies of the members of the Franklin expedition, frozen in the Canadian arctic in 1845 have been found to be resistant to modern antibiotics. Since the first antibiotics were developed in the 1940's, this resistance is not, as some claim, evidence of evolution in action but shows that the propensity for resistance was already present in the organism [See Rick McGuire, "Eerie: Human Arctic Fossils Yield Resistant Bacteria," Medical Tribune, 29 December 1988, p. 1.]. Organisms that occupy the most diverse environments in the greatest numbers for the longest times should, according to evolution, have the greatest potential for evolving new features and species. Microbial organisms show that this is false; their numbers per species are astronomical, and they are dispersed throughout practically all the world's environments. Nevertheless, the number of microbial species are relatively few. New features apparently don't evolve.

      An offspring of a plant or animal has characteristics that vary, often in subtle ways, from its "parents." Because of the environment, genetics, and chance circumstances, some of these offspring will reproduce more than others. So a species with certain characteristics will tend, on average, to have more "children." In this sense, nature "selects" genetic characteristics suited to an environment and, more importantly, eliminates unsuitable genetic variations. Therefore, an organism?s gene pool is actually constantly decreasing by means of natural selection.

      Notice, natural selection cannot produce new genes; it only selects among preexisting characteristics. As the word "selection" implies, variations are reduced, not increased. While natural selection occurs, nothing evolves and, in fact, some biological diversity is lost.

      While natural selection sometimes explains the survival of the fittest, it does not explain the origin of the fittest. Today, some people think that because natural selection occurs, evolution must be correct. Actually, natural selection prevents major evolutionary changes by reducing genetic diversity.

      In 1980, the "Macroevolution Conference" was held in Chicago. Roger Lewin, writing for Science, described it as a "turning point in the history of evolutionary theory." He went on to say: "The central question of the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms underlying microevolution can be extrapolated to explain the phenomena of macroevolution...the answer can be given as a clear, No." "In a generous admission Francisco Ayala, a major figure in propounding the Modern Synthesis [neo-Darwinism] in the United States, said 'We would not have predicted stasis [the stability of species over time] from population genetics, but I am now convinced from what the paleontologists say that small changes do not accumulate.'" [Roger Lewin, "Evolution Theory under Fire," Science, Vol. 210, 21 November 1980, p. 883, 884.]

      "Those who argue from microevolution to macroevolution may be guilty, then, of employing a false analogy; especially when one considers that microevolution may be a force of stasis [stability], not transformation. ... For those who must describe the history of life as a purely natural phenomenon, the winnowing action of natural selection is truly a difficult problem to overcome. For scientists who are content to describe accurately those processes and phenomena which occur in nature (in particular, stasis), natural selection acts to prevent major evolutionary change." Michael Thomas, "Stasis Considered," Origins Research, Vol. 12, Fall/Winter 1989, p. 11.

      No nascent organ has ever been observed emerging, though their origin in pre-functional form is basic to evolutionary theory. Some should be visible today, occu

      --
      --If something I said could be taken two ways, and one of those ways made you cry, then I meant the other way.
    8. Re:Another blow to the creationist argument by William+Tanksley · · Score: 1

      Yes, it would be powerful if it were true. Warning: don't assume it's true just because you want it to be.

      Von Neumann established the neccessary complexity for an organism to be capable of evolution: it has to reproduce, self-diagnose, and self-repair. If it can't reproduce, it won't possibly evolve; if it can't self-repair, it won't have enough 'genetic' stability to evolve; and if it can't self-diagnose, it can't conserve energy by performing repairs only when needed. The size of these creatures suggests something below the previously known size threshold for these functions, which indicates a possibly lower complexity.

      These might indeed show us a possible path to life as we know it, thus providing the first evidential path for abiogenesis. (The Miller experiments were fine, but only showed what /could/ happen in highly hypothetical conditions; furthermore, their results were pretty useless to explain anything more complex than the most simple assemblies.)

      So I think a lot of people will be watching these. I certainly will -- but I'm not holding my breath, either.

      -Billy

    9. Re:Another blow to the creationist argument by Decaff · · Score: 1

      Sorry, this is long, but your post requires it, I believe.

      Evolution is not scientific because it has never been observed or reproduced. A great deal of evolutionary theory is dedicated to making excuses why there are NO intermediate forms of any organism.

      Simply wrong. There are plenty of intermediate forms preserved in the fossil record. To name but a few; there are some beautifully preserved fossils of ammonites that show a progression of structures (the curved shells unwinding over millions of years), there are clear stages preserved in the development of flowers, and best of all, there is the evolution of mankind over the past few millions years - plenty of clear intermediate stages. A good website for the convinced skeptic is http://home.entouch.net/dmd/transit.htm, which shows the transition
      from fish to amphibian.

      Bacteria recovered from the bodies of the members of the Franklin expedition, frozen in the Canadian arctic in 1845 have been found to be resistant to modern antibiotics.[...]New features apparently don't evolve.

      Sorry, but the evolution of new features has actually been seen in bacteria, such as the appearance of a totally new metabolic pathway for sugar metabolism in the genus Klebsiella. Also, evolution of antibiotic
      resistance can easily arise spontaneously, in some cases through a random single mutations in several bacterial
      genes. Its no surprise to find this.

      An offspring of a plant or animal has characteristics that vary, often in subtle ways, from its "parents."
      [..]Therefore, an organism?s gene pool is actually constantly decreasing by means of natural selection.


      No, the gene pool is not decreasing. In each generation there are a large number of DNA changes resulting
      from copying errors, and faulty repair of DNA damage. In addition to mutation there is a huge amount of DNA transfer between individuals, through sex. This recombination of DNA provides a huge number of new variations and combinations of genes.

      Notice, natural selection cannot produce new genes; it only selects among preexisting characteristics. As the word "selection" implies, variations are reduced, not increased. While natural selection occurs, nothing evolves and, in fact, some biological diversity is lost.

      Natural selection does not produce new genes; mutation and sexual reproduction can. The reason why species change (why there is no statis) is because of two factors: competition between species (fox hunts rabbit, so both keep adapting) and change of evironment (climate change etc.).

      While natural selection sometimes explains the survival of the fittest, it does not explain the origin of the fittest. Today, some people think that because natural selection occurs, evolution must be correct. Actually, natural selection prevents major evolutionary changes by reducing genetic diversity.

      There is no 'origin of the fittest', simply an on-going competition between species for resources. Natural
      Selection simply means that organisms that have an advantage at the momement will tend to breed more.

      In 1980, the "Macroevolution Conference" was held in Chicago. Roger Lewin, writing for Science, described it as a "turning point in the history of evolutionary theory."

      Well, he would wouldn't he?

      "In a generous admission Francisco Ayala, a major figure in propounding the Modern Synthesis [neo-Darwinism] in the United States, said 'We would not have predicted stasis [the stability of species over time] from population genetics, but I am now convinced from what the paleontologists say that small changes do not accumulate.'"

      No he did not say that. In a subsequent letter, Alya says, and I quote:
      "I don't know how Roger Lewin could have gotten in his notes the quotation he attributes to me. I presented a paper/lecture and spoke at various times from the floor, but I could not possibly have said (at least as a complete sentence) what Le

    10. Re:Another blow to the creationist argument by cruachan · · Score: 1

      You know, you got as far as the second line of your first paragraph before making a monumental blunder of such proportions that it shows you really have f*** all idea about what you are arguing about. You are therefore to be congratulated - most creationists manage to screw up in the first line.

      Let's look at your blooper again...

      "Since the first antibiotics were developed in the 1940's, "

      Wrong, wrong, wrong. The first antibiotics were *discovered* in the 1940's. Antibiotics are a naturally occuring chemical warfare mechanism evolved by microbial organisms themselves to compete within their evolutionary and ecological niches.

      They've probably been around since the primeval slime and there's been a continual competition since then between antibiotic resistance and antibiotics. Penicillin and Penicillinases are a classic example of this. Indeed you can use the protein structure of Penicillinases to demonstrate evolution in bacteria with some considerable success. One of my previous co-workers even wrote his Ph.D. thesis on precisely that subject.

      It's true of course that we've chemically modified some antibiotics ourselves to tune for various properties, but to assume that we hav'nt done something that nature hasn't herself already done in the 3 billion years she's been working on the subject is arrogance in the extreme. Of course there's antibiotic resistance out their for modern antibiotics. This is simply *not* a problem for evolutionary theory, in fact it's quite a nice confirmation of it.

      Also note that antibiotic resistance can of course spread quite widely quite quickly - if evolutionary pressures exist to make it do so. Most antibiotic genes are on plasmids not the genomic DNA and moving plasmids around between bacteria is exceptionally easy. The little buggers actually have a form of sex to do it.

      The rest of your post is full of similar elementary mistakes, but this one gets me

      "Nevertheless, the number of microbial species are relatively few"

      WHAT THE F****????? How on earth did you get that impression? There are countless millions of bacterial species if species is used in an analogous genetic classification sense to multicellular organisms. What you are probably getting confused with is the fact that bacterial classification has up until recently been characteristic based - and as there's not that many characteristics you can distinguish in a unicellular organism the number of 'species' recognised has been artificially limited.

    11. Re:Another blow to the creationist argument by cruachan · · Score: 1

      "There are assertions that such evolution occurred, but absolutely none are supported by pertinent experiments or calculations"

      I'd have though an examination of the structure of the Photosynthetic Reaction Centre and Light Harvesting proteins over bacterial and plant species was an excellent and convincing illustration of evolution.

      But for real hard core data I'd refer you to the work of Woese on the evolution of the 16s RNA.

    12. Re:Another blow to the creationist argument by corsican · · Score: 1
      A few thoughts on your response; another long post, then I'm done. We've both made the error of simply asserting without citing.

      Regarding the quotes: fair enough. Quoting someone else's opinion on a subject is not proof of anything. We could both come up with quotes all day long that support our respective positions.

      Regarding the primary source of your information: yes, I am familiar with the Talk Origins archive; your first two citations came directly from the same page, and the second two involve topics from that same page (I didn't look at all the bacterial flagellum articles to find the other specific articles you cited).

      ...the appearance of a totally new metabolic pathway for sugar metabolism in the genus Klebsiella is misleading; the pathway was not totally new and no mutation was shown to have occurred. At no time did the researcher point to a new gene and say "this was not here before." A previously unobserved trait was expressed and enhanced by "unnatural selection" in the artificial environment but in no way did the study show that the "new" ability to metabolize D-arabinose was the result of a beneficial mutation. It is against all reason that the one "beneficial mutation" that the researcher was looking for just happened by "faulty repair of genetic damage" or "copying errors," especially since bateria do not reproduce sexually.

      ...There are plenty of intermediate forms preserved in the fossil record. To name but a few; there are some beautifully preserved fossils of ammonites that show a progression of structures (the curved shells unwinding over millions of years), there are clear stages preserved in the development of flowers, and best of all, there is the evolution of mankind over the past few millions years - plenty of clear intermediate stages. A good website for the convinced skeptic is http://home.entouch.net/dmd/transit.htm, which shows the transition from fish to amphibian.

      Wrong. it shows a creature that has some morphological similarities to fish and amphibians, quite a large difference. Taking a few similar forms and artificially arranging them to look like a transition does not mean they are transitional forms. The "progression of forms" you mention has another small problem; the "progression" is in many cases out of order in the fossil record. And the "transitional forms" of man were in many cases contemporaries of each other. The whole idea that organisms that are morphologically similar are therefore related is misleading in any case; is a platypus a transitional form between reptiles and mammals because it shares some morphological features with both? Of course not, and no biologist will tell you otherwise. Similar morphology does not indicate that any two species are related. As an example, a recent analysis of the genetic structure of different species of water fowl has revealed that the flamingo, while morphologically similar to the heron, crane, and spoonbill, is actually most closely related to the grebe (a small duck) than it is to any of the other wading birds.

      By the way; the title of the page you referenced is "TRANITIONAL FORMS." Makes one call into question the thoroughness of the author, don't you think?

      Then you say...There is no such thing as a 'nascent' organ in 'pre-functional form', and there never has been. At each stage, the change has to be of increased benefit to the organism. Evolution does not have the ability to look into the future and plan the construction of an organ.

      I agree. However, the same page you cite categorizes the fins of Acanthostega as "half-evolved legs;" this shows his misunderstanding of the very theory he is espousing; as though evolution had legs in mind but was only halfway there. As for the heat-sensing pits of vipers; talk about a straw man! "Maybe" "someday" it "could" evolve into an eye; how is this a tr

      --
      --If something I said could be taken two ways, and one of those ways made you cry, then I meant the other way.
    13. Re:Another blow to the creationist argument by corsican · · Score: 1
      "Since the first antibiotics were developed in the 1940's, " Wrong, wrong, wrong. The first antibiotics were *discovered* in the 1940's. Antibiotics are a naturally occuring chemical warfare mechanism evolved by microbial organisms themselves to compete within their evolutionary and ecological niches...."Nevertheless, the number of microbial species are relatively few" WHAT THE F****????? How on earth did you get that impression?

      Yeah, that's what I get for copying and pasting without thinking everything through myself, much like the guy I responded to. :)

      It's true of course that we've chemically modified some antibiotics ourselves to tune for various properties, but to assume that we hav'nt done something that nature hasn't herself already done in the 3 billion years she's been working on the subject is arrogance in the extreme. Of course there's antibiotic resistance out their for modern antibiotics. This is simply *not* a problem for evolutionary theory, in fact it's quite a nice confirmation of it. I brought that up because evolutionists always trot it out to say "See??? They developed resistance! That proves evolution because they evolved!" You can't have both arguments.

      Now, about that whole "species" argument: Paleontologists will take any minor variation and declare it a new species. I wonder what future paleontologists will say when they dig up our bones, or our dogs' bones? "Wow; look at all the different human and canine species!"

      --
      --If something I said could be taken two ways, and one of those ways made you cry, then I meant the other way.
    14. Re:Another blow to the creationist argument by cruachan · · Score: 1

      "I brought that up because evolutionists always trot it out to say "See??? They developed resistance! That proves evolution because they evolved!" You can't have both arguments."

      Well, yes you can actually. Your assuming 'evolution' is some monolithic process. It's not, there can be lots of different mechanisms whereby variations occur, propegate, and are selected for. And bacterial evolution is even more complex than the the multicellular variety because of lateral gene transfer and other such exotica. With antibiotics what you probably have is the relatively slow co-evolution of antibiotics & antibiotic resistance couple with the relatively fast lateral transmission of resistance via plasmid transfer when the evolutionary pressures (i.e. human use of antibiotics) promote it.

      "Now, about that whole "species" argument: Paleontologists will take any minor variation and declare it a new species. "

      That's an interesting point, but almost in the reverse sense to what you imply. It's a favourite Creationist falicy to misunderstand what a species is and how we define it, but generally Creationism is so scientifically screwed up that it never gets as far as asking interesting questions.

      Bottom line of course is that our definition of a species is decidedly fuzzy around the edges. The usual definition - a group of organisms of similar characteristics that can interbreed - is one of those definitions whereby you recognise it when you see it but otherwise would be hard put to deliniate a priori.

      We are very good at defining species among present day mammals and birds. There's lots of visible characteristics to look at, we can examine breeding populations, and generally gather a lot of data. We get much less good at it the further 'down' the evolutionary tree we go. In recent years analysis of genetic variation between and within species has nicely illustrated this. For example the amount of genetic variation within a typical amphibian or fish species is roughly similar to that we'd see in a whole genus, or even family, of mammals. The implication is that there are actually far more species of 'lower' organisms around than we recognise - in other words because of our bias towards studying mammals and birds in depth we tend to artificially put the sieve for sorting into different species at a much finer setting among these than we do in, for example, fish.

      With paleontologists it's pretty certain we are dramatically underestimating the number of species. For example there are three distinct species of zebra but it's doubtful if we'd pick up more than one from fossil evidence. Paleontologists by definition cannot view the breeding population of the animals/plants they study, nor see non-skeletal characteristics or behaviours. Another example - no palentologist would ever be able to tell a willow tit and marsh tit apart from fossil evidence - no matter how well preserved (http://www.garden-birds.co.uk/marshtit.htm)

    15. Re:Another blow to the creationist argument by Decaff · · Score: 1

      A few thoughts on your response; another long post, then I'm done. We've both made the error of simply asserting without citing.

      No - you made that error, not me. I provided citations. I don't, and never have, simply just assert anything. I have given argument and
      example and explanation, you haven't.

      Regarding the quotes: fair enough. Quoting someone else's opinion on a subject is not proof of anything. We could both come up with quotes all day long that support our respective positions.

      Yes, but you haven't. That is the point. The best you could do is come up with a quote that was demonstrably mistaken. You can't get out of that with 'we could both...' etc.

      If you are going to argue, you need to do better. You make some good points - the macro/micro evolution is an very interesting one, and raises important questions about the mechanism of evolution, but almost no-one (sane) uses it to question whether evolution occurred. You are getting confused, and assuming that the gradualist/punctuated evolution argument (now accepted as being a mistaken distinction) questions evolution itself.

  34. Re:I hate bugs by moro_666 · · Score: 1

    >>> Now I have to worry about nano-bacteria? Good grief --
    >>> more viruses!

    i suggest you to go back to school, bacteria has as much to do with viruses as chicken have to do with milking a cow.

    ps. ofcourse as a computer software flaw is seen as a virus ,
    windows may be considered a deadly bacteria which itself can be affected by viruses :)

    --

    I'd tell you the chances of this story being a dupe, but you wouldn't like it.
  35. Optical density? by mikeophile · · Score: 3, Insightful
    When the tissue was broken up, filtered to remove anything more than 200nm and the filtrate added to a sterile medium, the optical density - or cloudiness - of the medium increased.

    This, the researchers argue, means the nanoparticles were multiplying of their own accord.


    Wouldn't this also occur if the sub-200nm chunks broke up further after filtration?

    1. Re:Optical density? by krmt · · Score: 2, Informative

      Doubtful. Increased optical density usually is due the formation of aggregates, not their breakdown. Bacteria grown in culture increase the optical density of the solution (this is one way to measure their growth rate) and if you add a predatory phage to lyse them, the solution will clear again. All the particles are still there (conservation of matter), but they are now in smaller form, so the solution is clear.

      --

      "I may not have morals, but I have standards."

    2. Re:Optical density? by BigBadBri · · Score: 1
      Unlikely - the wavelengths of the light range (normally - some spectrophotometers go into the infra-red) from about 400nm to 700nm or so, so further breakup of 200nm particles would be unlikely to change the OD.

      Perhaps the density in the UV range should be measured, but UV can cause damage to bacteria, so you might kill the thing you are trying to measure.

      The increase in OD could be caused by some interaction between the nanoparticles and the media, or it might be due to replication taking place. Repetition with a bunch of different growth media could point to the true cause, but until DNA or RNA is isolated and shown not to be contamination from other sources, the whole thing has to remain doubtful.

      Personally, I'd like to see nanobacteria - the smaller the minimal unit that can be shown to self replicate gets, the less persuasive the phony statistical arguments of the creationist movement will become, and we can finally put all this god nonsense to bed.

      --
      oh brave new world, that has such people in it!
  36. Ok. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But US scientists report they have now isolated these cell-like structures in tissue from diseased human arteries.

    Coronary artery disease causes around 50% of deaths worldwide. Large potential market for new cardiovascular drugs.

    Whose stock price is needing a quick bounce upwards?

    Interesting though.

    1. Re:Ok. by simonecaldana · · Score: 1

      > Coronary artery disease causes around 50% of deaths worldwide.

      I would like to inform you that Miami is not on the border of the world, which is not flat, by the way :-D

  37. Interesting by EaterOfDog · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A Discover magazine article talked about the recent dicovery that 1/3 of all life on Earth is methane creating or consuming bacteria beneath the ocean floor. Now we find a new type of life. Anyone else get the impression that we don't know s**t?

    --

    Crushing my karma one post at a time.
    1. Re:Interesting by not_a_product_id · · Score: 1

      That's not to far off. I recently read A Short History of Nearly Everything. The thing that it really impressed on me was how little we really know.

      --

      ---
      We spoke for about a half an hour. I don't recall a thing we said. - Colorblind James Experience

    2. Re:Interesting by cruachan · · Score: 1

      We know quite a lot actually, it's just that microbiology keeps throwing up these holes because until 10 or 20 years ago we were severely limited by what could be cultured in the lab. Microbiology is now only just catching up with the breadth of the real world and not a self-selected subset.

      I've been out of the subject for quite some time, but when I was active in the area in the mid 80's it was just dawning on microbiologists that out of a typical soil sample they could culture a few percent of the different bacterial species in there (as determined by DNA footprint evidence).

      Up until then if you couldn't culture an organism it simply didn't exist as far as microbiologist were aware.

  38. The Force by infinite9 · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Don't worry, they're just medichlorians.

    --
    Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
  39. Hmm.. by irenetheno · · Score: 1
    I saw a program on The Science Channel a few months ago about this.
    The researchers had been trying to funding for years and were considered crackpots.
    I think most of the story was set in Australia.
    They may have called the little guys nanodes (or something very similar).

    Anybody else see this?

    1. Re:Hmm.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/index.html?http:// www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/nanobes/nanoimages.html

  40. Not everything that reproduces is alive by Weaselmancer · · Score: 2, Informative

    From the article:

    When the tissue was broken up, filtered to remove anything more than 200nm and the filtrate added to a sterile medium, the optical density - or cloudiness - of the medium increased.

    This, the researchers argue, means the nanoparticles were multiplying of their own accord.

    Doesn't sound exactly convincing. A lot of protein-like structures reproduce, but aren't considered to be alive. A good example is the prion that causes mad cow disease.

    Weaselmancer

    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
    1. Re:Not everything that reproduces is alive by cpghost · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A lot of protein-like structures reproduce, but aren't considered to be alive

      Computer virii reproduce too, but aren't considered alive either...

      --
      cpghost at Cordula's Web.
    2. Re:Not everything that reproduces is alive by CmdrMooCow · · Score: 1

      What if they are?

      Does it have to have DNA to be alive?

      This discovery might let us re-evaluate our definition of alive.

    3. Re:Not everything that reproduces is alive by Sgt+York · · Score: 2, Informative
      Prions, however, require host cells to replicate (term used loosely). They cause conformational switches in normal cell proteins to convert them into pathogenic conformations, which can then cause the same alteration in more of the same protein.

      These appeared to do so on their own, with no protein to start with.

      --

      There is a reason for everything. Sometimes that reason just sucks.

    4. Re:Not everything that reproduces is alive by cpghost · · Score: 1

      They may be (alive), but are not considered alive. This is merely how you define life, not what life may actually be.

      --
      cpghost at Cordula's Web.
    5. Re:Not everything that reproduces is alive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Semantics. Fire "reproduces," is it alive?

    6. Re:Not everything that reproduces is alive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Campbell's standard Biology textbook offers the following properities as a rough definition of "life":

      - Organization
      - Reproduction
      - Growth and Development
      - Energy Utilization
      - Repsonse to environment
      - Homeostasis
      - Evolutionary adaptation

  41. The Mars Meteorite by mrmargolis · · Score: 3, Interesting

    One of the major arguments against the life harboring theory for the meteorite found in Antarctica in 1984 by Roberta Score was that the signs of life it contained were an order of magnatude smaller than anything known to man. Perhaps these signs of nanobacteria merit reopening the mars rock investigation?

  42. Welcome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I for one welcome our new nanobacteria over^H^H^H^H underlords

  43. Ouch! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    lol. Set myself up for that one! - unass

  44. You may want to move to the bathroom instead. by Antihero77 · · Score: 1

    According to this previous slashdot article, the bathroom would be cleaner.

    --
    and now Tom with the weather...
  45. wait a minute by gphinch · · Score: 1

    "But if you go back to how we defined life prior to our knowing about DNA, our criteria was that things multiplied in culture. This is what we have." And before we had telescopes, we defined the Earth as the center of the universe. Scientific progress can't just be ignored to suit your own purposes.

    --
    in bed.
    1. Re:wait a minute by jeff4747 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Scientific progress can't just be ignored to suit your own purposes.

      Actually there's still plenty of debate on where to draw the line on what's alive and what's not. Viruses do have DNA, but can't do anything but sit there until they infect a cell. But once they do they can self-replicate. Are they alive? If so, are prions alive since they can't do anything but sit there until they infect a cell?

    2. Re:wait a minute by shotfeel · · Score: 1

      Don't forget the viruses that have RNA instead of DNA.

  46. DNA... or not? by CmdrMooCow · · Score: 1

    Their definition of life is dependent on DNA, and that requires a certain size to work right.

    Defining these may require a discovery of perhaps another way to have an instruction set. Maybe instead of a carbon chain, they have a certain arrangement of subatomic (or sub-subatomic?) particles/waves/strings that fulfill the same function. ::shrug::
    perhaps research here will show that stupidity is a disease.

  47. Is this stuff from Mars? by Connectmc · · Score: 2, Interesting
    From the BBC article :

    In 1996, nannobacteria came to the attention of the world's media when scientists announced they had found fossils in a Martian meteorite of what appeared to be nano-sized bacteria.

    No idea if the lil critters originally went from here to Mars on board the rovers, or came here riding meteors...but if people are now debating whether or not they're alive, doesnt it also become a debate on whether whatever exists on Mars is life ?

  48. Re:So how do we fight against infection from these by whereiswaldo · · Score: 1

    I guess I'd better hurry up and get my patent for the anti^H^H^H^Hnanobiotics submitted.

    Shhh... now that you've got a cool word invented, la low until someone invents a successful company called "nanobiotics" and sue the bastards for everything they've got. It's really all you need to do these days!

  49. So that explains it! by UncleBiggims · · Score: 1

    Scientists have been puzzled for ages now by the existance of infected bacteria. In fact, one of Dr. John Lieske's research assistants kept asking "How can a bacteria be infected? Don't they cause infections?" This constant harassment eventually led Dr. Lieske to discover the culprits... Nanobacteria. The only question that remains is how to explain those infected nanobacteria? Hmmm...

    Moderation: +3 Dork
  50. Journal Impact Factors by nucal · · Score: 4, Informative
    For one, it is telling that this "breakthrough" has appeared in a low-impact journal.

    You really pressed one of my buttons here. Did you actually read the article and judge for youself or did you just assume that it was lousy based on the ISI impact factor? By the way the impact factor for the the journal in question, American Journal of Physiology, is in the "mid-range" (~3-4), but not horrible (there are journals with impact factors less than 1). In fact, the whole idea of impact factors is pretty controversial and has been abused as a criterion for promotions, grant awards, etc.

    There's plenty of bullshit published in the "so-called" top tier journals (Science, Nature, Cell, etc.) and plenty of excellent science published in what you are calling a low-impact journal.

    Also, the group working on nanobacteria had to revise their work seven times - this is an unheard of level of skepticism and suggests that there is an unusual level of politics going on here.

    1. Re:Journal Impact Factors by krmt · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Agreed on all counts. The New Scientist article that someone else linked goes in to the politics a bit, and is a good read. Interestingly, the major article by a sceptic was submitted to PNAS, track II (for those who don't know, track II means it gets published without review, since PNAS is a bit of an "old boys club") so it should be taken with a grain of salt. That said, the science in that paper looks decent to me on the whole, at least in terms of raising questions that still need to be answered, most notably about the genetic material of these things.

      There's also an article by the original group claiming that the nanobacteria induce apoptosis in a variety of cells, including fibroblasts in cell culture. This doesn't make any sense to me, evolutionarily, pathogenically, or physiologically. I haven't read that paper yet, only the abstract, but I still feel like I need to see a whole lot more good data on these things before I'll be convinced.

      --

      "I may not have morals, but I have standards."

    2. Re:Journal Impact Factors by InternationalCow · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's obvious that this is one of your buttons. I am not that fond of the impact factor system. On the contrary. However, at this point in time it is one of the few more or less reliable ways of judging the importance (in terms of readership etc) of a particular publication. And while bullshit has OCCASIONALLY appeared in Science, Cell or Nature, "plenty" is not the word I would use. Generally, standards are high. And if a mid-range journal asks for seven revisions that tells me too that there is politics going on. That is, some editor really wanted it published while others did not like it at all. If a paper is rejected by reviewers twice in a row that is usually grounds for definitive rejection. And to get back to the original point - this still doesn't mean that the existence of nanobacteria has been proved or that the methods used for the proof were adequate.

      --
      ----- One learns to itch where one can scratch.
    3. Re:Journal Impact Factors by nucal · · Score: 1
      Other than actual article content, I think that a better system than the overall journal impact factor is to look at the number of times an individual paper is cited by other research groups after a few years. Citing your own work is one way that impact factors are inflated and a handful of highly cited papers or reviews can skew the journal impact factor.

      Maybe I was a little strong in my "bullshit" comment. However, more often than not, when reading one of the "magazine" journals, I'm left wondering wondering why a given article made it to the top tier or how it got by reviewers without a critical control.

      And of course the actual topic of whether nanobacteria exist is far from settled, that's for sure.

    4. Re:Journal Impact Factors by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      Interestingly, the major article by a sceptic was submitted to PNAS, track II (for those who don't know, track II means it gets published without review, since PNAS is a bit of an "old boys club")

      Wrong. Track II means it goes through the normal review process like any other paper. This is a fairly recent addition on the part of PNAS; it used to only allow communications from members.

      As a side note, I've noticed that the quality of Track I and III papers varies widely. There's some excellent stuff published that way, and it's never quite clear why it went through that route rather than a more "prestigious" one. I've seen some garbage articles in PNAS as well, but you can't judge an article by its method of acceptance, only by evaluating the evidence yourself.

      And, as someone else pointed out, the really prestigious journals publish garbage all the time. The papers that get into a journal like Science are sometimes huge breakthroughs, sometimes they're smaller breakthroughs that just got lucky and appealed to the editor on that particular day, and sometimes they're not much of anything but they present such an interesting or provocative model that they're published anyway. I saw one recent research article that looked like it must have been really difficult to complete but the results really weren't that exciting or useful, but the paper had one spectacular figure extrapolating from their results and that was probably what got it accepted.

  51. Nanno vs. Nano by underworld · · Score: 1

    is that a British thing?

    According to dictionary.com:

    [Greek nnos, nannos, little old man, dwarf, from nanns, uncle.]

    This seems to imply that the Brits have it right... so why does America use nano instead of nanno?

    Oh, and by the way, does that mean that these are bacteria from little old men? 'cause that's just disgusting....

    1. Re:Nanno vs. Nano by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "nano" is the correct SI term. The use of "nanno" is not recommended, although it is closer to the classical Greek that was used to develop the metric system.

      For that matter, "giga" is actually supposed to be pronounced "jiga" in English. (The first "g" is soft, not hard.) Slashdotters make fun of the way Doc Brown in Back to the Future pronounces "gigawatts," but he is correct and they are wrong.

      Again, it would be closer to the original Greek to start "giga" with a hard "g". But the metric system was largely developed in France. This is the reason for spelling of "nano," the pronunciation of "giga," and other minor oddities.

  52. Weapons of mass nano-destruction? by Snafoo · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Now, of course, the question becomes: How long will it take to weaponize them?

    --
    - undoware.ca
  53. Polycycstic Kidney Disease by artemis67 · · Score: 1

    This article from five years ago suggests that, while nanobacteria may not be responsible for the genetic flaw that causes PKD, they may exacerbate the situation and cause the cysts to grow at a much faster rate.

  54. nanNobacteria? by 192939495969798999 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The article uses 2 n's, but slashdot uses only 1. Is this nanNobacteria? That would make more sense, since bacteria are already super small, it's hard to imagine some form of life being one billionth the size of a bacteria cell.

    --
    stuff |
    1. Re:nanNobacteria? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and what are "nanNobacteria"? the missing bacteria from your grandmother? care to explain.

    2. Re:nanNobacteria? by painandgreed · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I read a completly different article on the subject* that explains this. The use of two n's is to conform to an archaic spelling of nanobacteria that was used when fossils of such were first discovered in rocks dating back to the beginings of the 1900's.

      *Of course this was Paranoia Magazine. Read into that what you will if anything.

    3. Re:nanNobacteria? by Ignorant+Aardvark · · Score: 1

      The nano in nanobacteria doesn't mean that it's the one-billionth the size of a bacteria, it just means that it's like a bacteria, only on the scale of nanometers.

  55. I do of course by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    mean the Western world. Since we live in a fetishistic society reliant on social and global inequality in order to be using this medium of communication at all, I assume we ignore the portion of the planet which clearly doesn't matter enough.

    I doubt GlaxoWellcome have much to gain from developing better de novo antimalarials for instance. Whereas anything that might give the average western white male a better chance of survival no matter how tenuous is of course financed to the hilt.

    1. Re:I do of course by simonecaldana · · Score: 1

      (I'll bite (again))

      > I assume we ignore the portion of the planet which clearly doesn't matter enough.

      I suppose you ignore.
      I do not.

    2. Re:I do of course by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I tend to mostly. Otherwise I would be out there doing something, and I'm not.

  56. Re:So how do we fight against infection from these by Crudely_Indecent · · Score: 1

    file that patent in the EU, it's legal there now.

    if you hurry it's probably still up for grabs

    --


    "Lame" - Galaxar
  57. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Hey, mods; if you had read the actual article, you would know that this is not off-topic. In the article, they spell it "nannobacteria."

    --A different Anonymous Coward than the first Anoymous Coward

  58. Of course we don't know sh*t! by MikeMo · · Score: 1

    But that's so cool! That's precisely what makes life so much fun (well, except for girlfriends). It would be a really, really boring place if everything was already figured out, all problems solved, nothing to invent, nothing left to do but watch old sitcom re-runs.

  59. Re:Mayo clinic by yuri82 · · Score: 1

    What gets me, is that the way my memory is, someday Im going to repeat that story to other people thinking it was true. "Did you know that the Mayo guy was mad crazy?"

    --
    Who is this Karma guy and why is he bad ??
  60. Re:I hate bugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They're both on a farm?

  61. Autoimmune diseases, autism and immigration by Baldrson · · Score: 1, Informative
    Nanobacteria is hypothesized to be the cause of the recent increase in autoimmune diseases.

    If so one can imagine that, as with other pathogens, there are different natural susceptibilities to said autoimmune diseases in different populations from different human ecologies.

    It may be that this is the underlying mechanism that seems to be driving up the rates of autism among populations high in Finnish ancestry and recent increases in immigration from India. Liberalization of immigration laws in European-derived populations and a rather aggressive affirmative action program within India aimed at dismantling the caste system there may have unleashed something on particularly susceptible populations and it may prove very difficult to ferret out what that something is if it turns out to be nanobacterium.

  62. MMMMmmm... by Braintrust · · Score: 1


    Chocolate Covered Nanos... ...homer drool...

    --
    Years later, a doctor will tell me that I have an I.Q. of 48, and am what some people call "mentally retarded".
  63. Re:Mayo clinic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Yeah, you'll read about it on Snopes.com one day.

    "Was the founder of the Mayo Clinic really a psycopathic butcher?"

    :)

  64. Yer Momma's so nasty.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...even her germs have germs.

  65. Kidney Stones by bigattichouse · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I remember hearing about Kidney stones or something being caused by nano bacteria causing concretions when serum levels of the "building materials" got too high.. If they exist (and the kidney stone thing isn't a myth), I wonder if other concretions (like iron concretions in the ocean) are caused by similar processes.

    --
    meh
    1. Re:Kidney Stones by mwood · · Score: 1

      See "stromatolite".

  66. Nanolife? by Captain+DaFt · · Score: 1

    That's nothing new, I've been living one for years!

    --
    The U.S. really needs an English to Wisdom dictionary.
  67. Can you say, 'I'm not surprised? I knew you could. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    20 years of research into this and patent
    medicine should almost be completely abolished.

    If any of us are still alive, that is ;)

  68. Just a thought... by Captain+DaFt · · Score: 1

    Most life as we know it uses DNA as its basis, but some primitive bacteria use RNA, As do some viruses, which aren't "technically" alive (ie: they need a host lifeform to spread, not just an organic media.)
    OTOH, DNA and RNA aren't the only protiens capable of being used to pass on information. I read the articles but couldn't find anyone investigating to see if there's a possibility that nanobacteria use Prions to self replicate.
    Seems like a possible avenue, since they did find DNA like activity, but couldn't (so far) find any DNA.
    (Would this even be possible? Or am I just blowing smoke anally?) };->

    --
    The U.S. really needs an English to Wisdom dictionary.
    1. Re:Just a thought... by Sgt+York · · Score: 1
      DNA and RNA aren't the only protiens

      DNA and RNA aren't proteins, they are nucleic acids. Completely different structure and composition

      As for prions or something similar carrying the information, there was a theory a while back that said protein was the molecular basis of inheritance. At first, it seemed like a logical idea: proteins are exceptionally complex and many are quite stable. They would make a good information store. After a while, it became less attractive because of the difficulties involved. For instance, no one could propose a mechanism by which a protein could duplicate itself from free amino acids. The theory was eventually abandoned when the DNA supporters demonstrated nucleic acids as the basis.

      So it's possible, but unlikely that these base ineritance on protein. If it is found that these do use protein as genetic information, it would be something totally new, and something that possibly arose independent of the DNA-using lineage. This is actually another argument against it, as that these would have had to compete with DNA-based organisms early on, and it seems quite obvious that DNA forms took dominance. It would be likely that if something like this, it would have been selected out. (Again, not impossible, I can think of a few scenarios in which it could happen...)

      It is unlikely, however, that they use prion-like behavior, because they can grow in cell-free culture. Prions require their host proteins to replicate.

      --

      There is a reason for everything. Sometimes that reason just sucks.

    2. Re:Just a thought... by Captain+DaFt · · Score: 1

      "DNA and RNA aren't proteins, they are nucleic acids. Completely different structure and composition"

      DOH! (smacks head) That's what I get for trying to think faster than I type!

      Your post nailed what I was fumbling around trying to say.
      It would be exciting if nanobacteria were proof of one of those scenarios. (Quite literally a whole new way of life!) };->
      Thanks!

      --
      The U.S. really needs an English to Wisdom dictionary.
  69. Every desktop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Didn't you hear? Bill wants to be on every desktop ;)

  70. 30 nm is a little crowded by mhackarbie · · Score: 2, Informative
    That's just big enough to hold a single ribosome. Any self-replicating cell of that size which required proteins would not be able to manufacture them on its own. And without proteins, you can't replicate DNA. The minimal self-contained set of molecules that is self-replicating is physically much larger than this small size.

    Therefore, if these particles are capable of replication, they must rely on some host cell for additional complex components, which places them in the category of 'not-truly-alive-on-their-own', like the viruses.

    At this time, it is more correct to refer to these things as 'nano-spheres', NOT 'nanobacteria'.

    mhack

    --
    Building a better ribosome since 1997
    1. Re:30 nm is a little crowded by Phurd+Phlegm · · Score: 1
      That's just big enough to hold a single ribosome. Any self-replicating cell of that size which required proteins would not be able to manufacture them on its own. And without proteins, you can't replicate DNA. The minimal self-contained set of molecules that is self-replicating is physically much larger than this small size.

      Wouldn't it be more correct to say "the minimal known self-contained set of molecules that is self-replicating?" I'm not saying these gizmos exist or are a novel form of life, but there's no reason that a different, simpler self-replicating system couldn't exist. Well, I guess to be fair myself, I have to say we don't know of any reason....

      So far all we know about are minor tweaks on the DNA/RNA/ribosome mechanism--it sure would be nifty to see how another system might work.

    2. Re:30 nm is a little crowded by mhackarbie · · Score: 2, Informative
      Yes, I agree, minimal known set is more correct. It's certainly possible that a smaller self-replicating system of a different nature could exist.

      Also, science has produced so many unexpected and extraordinary discoveries about life in the past that I personally wouldn't be TOO surprised if a different and possibly smaller self-replicating system was discovered somewhere at some point.

      I just don't know if this current nanosphere phenomenon will fit that bill though.

      mhack

      --
      Building a better ribosome since 1997
  71. DNA a pre-requisite for life? by Xenophon+Fenderson, · · Score: 1

    Why does it seem like everyone assumes that if something is alive, it will have DNA? Admittedly, science fiction shouldn't be my primary source for information on biology, but even the news article implies that most biologists assume that alien creatures (or even possibly undiscovered creatures here on Earth) will have DNA. In my (admittedly uneducated) mind, it's like saying all computers will be programmed in C, a ridiulous proposition.

    --
    I'm proud of my Northern Tibetian Heritage
    1. Re:DNA a pre-requisite for life? by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      In fact, a DNA based life form is (on my also uneducated mind) very more likely to happen than computers programmed in C. DNA, RNa and aminoacids are very common substances, proven to be found even out of Earth. So while we don know other way of generatting metabolism, guessing that an unknown life form is DNA or RNA and protein based is a good hunt.

  72. ogden nash's prescience on this matter.... by margulies · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Bigger fleas have smaller fleas
    Upon their backs to bite'em
    And smaller fleas have lesser fleas
    And so ad infinitem.

    And the bigger fleas, in turn
    Have greater fleas to go on
    And these in turn have greater still
    And greater still, and so on.

  73. prion seems more likely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prion

  74. Sounds like ST:TNG by mwood · · Score: 2, Funny

    Beverley: It appears to be a nanobacterial infection, Captain. It's resequencing Barclay's DNA.

    Picard: Can you reverse the process?

    Beverley: Not until after the next commercial break.

    Barclay: Could we let someone *else* have *his* DNA resequenced next week? This is getting old.

  75. Alive or not, they seem important by dom1234 · · Score: 1

    Why do those scientists debate so much about whether those "beings" are lifeforms or not ? Even if we do not classify them as alive, if they are newly discovered to play an important role in many diseases, this discover is extremely interesting anyways.

    1. Re:Alive or not, they seem important by krmt · · Score: 1

      It's not so much about petty definitions of life as actually determining what the hell is going on. Some groups say that these things are pathological and that this pathology is caused the same as in any other bacteria, because they have DNA, express genes, make proteins and reproduce to amplify the pathogenic effect. Other groups say that all of this is not true at all, and that these things are just aggregates of mineral and protein. Isn't this distinction important, especially if these things really do turn out to cause disease (the jury is still out on this) and you want to treat them?

      --

      "I may not have morals, but I have standards."

  76. Amazing opportunity for the cleanliness industry by StefanJ · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Proper hygiene is an important contribution to fighting disease, but a lot of people are obsessed with cleanliness.

    There's an entire industry that caters to these folks. Disinfectant wipes, hand sanitizers, germ-killing floor wash, etc. There are even germ-killing laundry additives. Most of these don't do anything more than proper use of hot water and soap (and occasionally bleach) will do.

    But getting cynical for a moment: These nanobacteria are a great marketing opportunity. Hucksters can hype soaps, wipes, and so on that are "anti-nanobacterial." Quack doctors can advertise herbal remedies and enema preperations that blast the little devils out of the body.

    I think I'll sell some high-tech stocks and invest in this fad!

    Stefan

  77. Its just a megabudget marketing campaing. by iamcadaver · · Score: 2, Funny

    I believe it was called: midichlorians

    --
    Before I part with'em: two pennies weigh ~4.996+/-0.014g, have a zinc core, and the face of Lincoln. You can keep 'em.
  78. The continuum of life (was: Skeptical articles...) by Dust31 · · Score: 1
    Do viruses live? Do prions "live"? They do not, but bacteria certainly do.
    There is an ongoing debate about viruses, about whether they are alive or not. Scientists do not yet agree. To simply state 'yes' or 'no' is misleading. Scientists typically answer several questions to determine whether something is alive, among them:
    (1) is cellularly or molecularly organized
    (2) does it respire (use energy and produce waste)
    (3) does it grow
    (4) does it adapt
    (5) does it reproduce

    The best we can say at this point is that viruses have some properties of life, and some lifeless properties. But life is not an either/or proposition, it exists on a contiuum. At what point is a heart-attack victim alive or dead? Is he alive until he loses consciousness? Until the heart stops? Until the brain dies? Until the body can no longer be revived? Is it even possible to pinpoint the moment where at one nanosecond he's alive (100%) and the next nanosecond he's dead (100%)?

    Is a multicellular organism alive the when an egg cell has been fertilized? When only one sperm has made it to the egg, and is halfway through the egg cell wall? 90% through? 99.9% through? Before or after the genetic material has been integrated? Before or after it undergoes mitosis?
  79. Looks very very dubious.... by hung_himself · · Score: 2, Informative

    The first clue (other than it appearing in Slashdot...) was something that sounded groundbreaking but published in an obscure clinical journal.

    After looking the abstract up on Pubmed, it smelled even worse.

    Recap: their "evidence" is based on 3 findings

    1. Presence of DNA from staining and uridine incorporation.
    2. Increased cloudiness of solution after filter sterilization.
    3. Electron microscopy.

    None of this is very *good* evidence. Pretty much any small (nan[n]o)particle could have these properties. For example activated charcoal will absorb dye and hydroxyapatite will bind uridine. Colloidal aggregates can and do form in sterile solutions, resulting in increasing cloudiness. And everything looks like small balls under EM.

    What they didn't show and what would have been more convincing was PCR to actually find some novel sequences (RNA or DNA). Also some evidence to show that these things actually multiplied like bacteria - i.e. does uridine "incorporation" increase with time at an exponential rate.

    Finally, a quick Google search reveals a possible motive for this (other than NASA trying to get more money) I don't know how valid the concerns are but they seem plausible

    http://drcranton.com/nanobacteria.htm

    1. Re:Looks very very dubious.... by Sgt+York · · Score: 2, Informative
      AJP is an obscure clinical journal???? Not in my book, and not with any of my colleagues. Certainly not 1st tier, but just as certainly not "obscure". It is a very well-respected journal.

      As for the data, they did show that uridine incorporation rate is greater with the particles than is seen with hydroxyapatite crystals added to the same medium, this argues that it is a different process.

      Furthermore, the uridine incorporation rate they observed does allow for a lag-log-plateau pattern, reaching plateau by day 3. Granted, it's only 4 points, but the shape of the graph could allow for the correct curve.

      They did show that the particles do contain DNA, and that it is TUNEL negative (not apoptotic bodies, and not simply dye-absorptive).

      Yes, unique sequences would be more convincing. Actually, in my mind, that would be the clencher. It's not done, not by a longshot. These may or may not be "nanobacteria", but the data is compelling. It warrants further investigation, certainly. I suggest you read the paper. It's one of those annoying preprint things, double spaced with the figures at the end and seperate from the legends, but it's pretty good.

      --

      There is a reason for everything. Sometimes that reason just sucks.

    2. Re:Looks very very dubious.... by hung_himself · · Score: 1

      No offense was intended - I should have looked it up beforehand to see that AJP has a decent impact factor. My point was if the work of this nature (evidence for a very different form of life) was truly convincing - it would have been published in a broader journal.

      The data that you've talked about are still not very convincing - even if the dye is not adsorbed by the particles all it really just shows that they are particles that bind DNA better than the HAP crystals they added.

      As for further investigation? Well I just figured that they already did the obvious stuff - better time courses, PCR and had gotten no or negative results. Solid evidence that might have gotten them into Nature/Science/Cell which I assume is what they were aiming for.

  80. Now we just need someone to invent... by mark-t · · Score: 2, Funny

    Now we just need someone to invent/discover nano-penecillin.

  81. Huh, who would have though George Lucas was right? by gregoryj · · Score: 1

    They are just Midichlorians. Nothing to worry about...unless your evil.

  82. This has fabulous implications by mcrbids · · Score: 1

    As we move inexorably towards increased space presence, we'll find more and more interesting replicating chemical reactions that warrant further study.

    At what point does a chemical reaction pattern become defined as life?

    If we were to find intelligent life on other planets, even capable of our more advanced technologies (telecommunications, computing, etc.) we would surely have no difficulty in classifying that as "life" - but most assuredly there would be no trace of DNA as we know it.

    It's even unlikely that such life would be based on the carbon cycle we find here on Earth.

    Samples of "life" such as these nanobacteria (or whatever they end up being called) are an excellent example of such a chemical process.

    One of the things I find so fascinating about the Sciences is that there is no conclusion, no theory of operation, and no information set considered incontrovertible - everything is subject to revision and peer review, and only under these intense circumstances can truth truly be found... eventually.

    Wow!

    --
    I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
  83. Life as mineral? by SiliconEntity · · Score: 1

    AG Cairns-Smith is famous for his theory that the first forms of life on earth were actually mineral in nature. Only later did they evolve the ability to synthesize, manipulate and control organic molecules. Eventually the organics got so sophisticated that the life forms dropped the mineral part and we got the kind of life we have today.

    One of the interesting things about these nanobacteria (or nannobacteria as some people (mis?)spell it) is that they seem to be associated with minerals. In fact part of the controversy over the recent experiments is whether the apparent reproduction of the nanobacteria is possibly just mineral crystal growth. And the nature of the mineral shells associated with the nanobacteria is similar to known non-organic mineral growth.

    It's possible that the skeptics are right and there is no life here, just a natural process. But if minerals are growing and replicating as little balls, that really does call to mind Cairns-Smith's theory. If these minerals could then catalyze organic reactions to maintain the chemical state which promotes their growth, we'd essentially have the pre-biotic life forms that Cairns-Smith postulated.

    Maybe nanobacteria are remnants of an earlier stage of life in which organisms were part mineral, part organic. They might not have DNA or RNA in the way life does today, but be some strange symbiosis that we have never seen before.

  84. Difference Between Nanobacteria and Prions? by ajax0187 · · Score: 1
    The existence of nannobacteria is one of the most controversial of scientific questions - some experts claim they are simply too small to be life forms.

    I suppose it's the same thing as viruses and prions. Do you consider a strand of proteins (or in the case of prions, a protein) a form of life? Though since all life as we know it is just a bunch of proteins, maybe they are.

    By the way, does this mean that prions have lost the title of smallest recognizible organism? Anybody?

    --
    "By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth." - George Carlin
    1. Re:Difference Between Nanobacteria and Prions? by J'raxis · · Score: 3, Informative
      I think these nanobacteria are just smaller than bacteria (and larger than viruses), not actually smaller than prions, which still hold the title as the smallest.
      • Bacteria - full-size living organisms with DNA and organelles and everything.
      • Nanobacteria - really tiny versions of the above.
      • Viruses - strands of protein and RNA.
      • Prions - individual protein molecules.
    2. Re:Difference Between Nanobacteria and Prions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Viruses and prions don't reproduce in culture. If these do, they are clearly life.

      I didn't think anyone considered prions to be organisms.

    3. Re:Difference Between Nanobacteria and Prions? by the+gnat · · Score: 3, Informative

      I think these nanobacteria are just smaller than bacteria (and larger than viruses), not actually smaller than prions, which still hold the title as the smallest.

      Prions are organic infectious agents, but they're not "life" under any standard, and they're also nothing more than corrupted versions of proteins already in the cell. Their replication is a trick of physical chemistry, not a true reproductive process, not even comparable to a virus's hijacking of the cell's machinery. Prions are really more like oncogenic proteins, except with transmissibility.

      Viruses are actually more complicated that "strands of protein and RNA"; some have relatively large genomes (~40 proteins) and a fairly intricate structure. Bacteriophages in particular have a wicked-looking protein casing. They're still not life, though, as they don't reproduce on their own and don't metabolize energy. (I think they're also one of the great mysteries of evolution, as well.)

    4. Re:Difference Between Nanobacteria and Prions? by J'raxis · · Score: 1

      Yeah, prions are almost like really complex poisons that can replicate themselves. IIRC, when they encounter a normal protein, they're able to twist it into a copy of themselves. Eventually the host body is damaged from having a significant amount of their normal protein turned into prions, and dies.

      Oh, and if anyone's interested: bacteriophage. I've seen these before, but didn't know the name of them. Vaguely reminiscent of some sort of satellite or space probe.

    5. Re:Difference Between Nanobacteria and Prions? by the+gnat · · Score: 2, Informative

      IIRC, when they encounter a normal protein, they're able to twist it into a copy of themselves.

      That's the right idea, although it's really best described in terms of the statistical mechanics of protein folding. If you have a protein locked in a conformation that exposes a large hydrophobic patch, the tendency will be for that protein to bind other proteins with hydrophobic patches. A misfolded prion protein will propagate itself by stabilizing misfolded conformations of other proteins (probably the same protein, actually, or something related), which otherwise might be transitory.

      Eventually the host body is damaged from having a significant amount of their normal protein turned into prions, and dies.

      I think it's actually the buildup of prionic aggregates that causes tissue damage; I don't think it affects very many distinct proteins in the cell. It's not a systemic thing; most prion diseases afflict neurons.

      My recollection may be a bit off; I saw the guy who discovered them (Stanley Prusiner) give a talk last fall but this is a bit different from what I normally study.

    6. Re:Difference Between Nanobacteria and Prions? by Dr.+GeneMachine · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I think it's actually the buildup of prionic aggregates that causes tissue damage; I don't think it affects very many distinct proteins in the cell.

      Small nitpick... This is an intensely debated point in prion theory. At the moment we are not really sure what causes the actual damage to the cell. In the preclinical state of prion diseases, there can be a massive buildup of prion aggregates, while no cell damage is visible. The damage might as well arise from the loss of function of the correctly folded prion protein PrP(C), which is depleted by misfolding and aggregation. It is hypothesized that one of the functions of the prion protein is the prevention of oxidative damage to the cell. Depletion of PrP(C) would cause a rise in oxidative stress on the neuron, resulting in the activation of apoptotic signals which trigger programmed cell death.
      On the other hand, certain fragments of the prion protein could be proven to be cytotoxic to cultured neurons in quite small quantities. Up to now there is no conclusive evidence which mechanism triggers cell death in the brain.

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      This comment does not exist.
    7. Re:Difference Between Nanobacteria and Prions? by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      Up to now there is no conclusive evidence which mechanism triggers cell death in the brain.

      Okay, I guess I'm partly extrapolating from other diseases. Isn't Alzheimer's due to buildup of amyloids, and are there other neuorodegenerative disorders that have a similar cause?

    8. Re:Difference Between Nanobacteria and Prions? by Dr.+GeneMachine · · Score: 1

      I'm not really current with the Alzheimer's literature. Generally speaking, amyloid diseases come in different flavours. On the one hand, there are systemic amyloidoses, such as Amyloidosis A, where the amyloid per se is not toxic, but causes damage due to its sheer mass. In extrem cases there are deposits of kilograms of misfolded protein which cause damage by the space the take up and the pressure they exert on organs.
      On the other hand, there are specific amyloidoses, in particular, the neurodegenerative amyloidoses. As far as I know, there is no common cause for the actual pathogenic features known. In case of Alzheimers there seems to be some evidence for actual cytotoxicity of A(beta) fibrils, but, as far as I know, it is not conclusive. In case of prion diseases, and for example, in case of Huntington's and Parkinson's disease, the identity of the pathogenic species is quite unclear. There is some evidence pointing to a role of prefibrilar oligomeric aggregates as the actual species causing cell death, but the overall role of such aggregates is still unclear.

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      This comment does not exist.
  85. Re:Amazing opportunity for the cleanliness industr by mwood · · Score: 1

    Since the little bugs seem to do their evil work by accumulating calcium deposits, maybe this is a new market for LimeAway. :-)

  86. When they extract DNA from these things... by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 1

    ...and sequence it and do a bit of cladistics to show that we really are seeing DNA from a new family of organisms - then I'll believe it. I don't think that's a lot to ask for either if they're managing to actually see these things reproduce.

    --
    Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
  87. Re:I hate bugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Um... bacteria aren't viruses.

    These "nanobacteria" are smaller than viruses. I bet they have as much in common with bacteria as viruses do. (i.e. the term "nanobacteria" is a misnomer - bacteria they ain't.)

  88. Mayo? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "A team lead by Dr John Lieske of the Mayo Clinic claims they have found irrefutable evidence of the existence of nanobacteria, which is likely responsible for a plethora of illnesses."

    In other news, researchers at the Ketchup Clinic have discovered Nano-cells which when combined with any other cell, makes it taste better.

  89. The same as nanobes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are these nanobacteria the same thing as the nanobes mentioned previously on Slashdot?

  90. At this scale by chadjg · · Score: 1

    are things likely to get wet? I know this is a stupid question, but it occurse to me that Lysol would never touch these little buggers because the surface tension of the droplets might bee to high and it wouldn't wet the small crevices in the skin.

    Dumb question, and mostly idle curiosity really.

    --
    Why do I have this? I don't smoke.
  91. Anti-NanoBacteria Soap?!?!?!? by Unworthy+Advocate · · Score: 0

    I call dibs on the Anti-NanoBacteria Soap Patend!! WooHooo, I'm gonna be rich! Somebody call Oprah.

  92. Nanobes by wombatmobile · · Score: 1

    Dr. Phillipa Uwins, an electron microscopist from Queensland Australia found nanobes less than 100 nanometres big when analysing core samples returned from petrochemical exploration.

    1999 Discovery

    Interview on Robin Cook's Science Show.

  93. Just another nano story by Murgalon · · Score: 1

    Nanobacteria Nabobot Nanotube What's next ? Nanosoftware I guess in the next century "pico" will be the new buzz word.

  94. Re:So how do we fight against infection from these by nacturation · · Score: 1

    Sure, but the domain name nanobiotics.com is already almost two years old (and apparently for sale!). So I wouldn't be too confident on the 'inventing a new word' bit. :)

    --
    Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
  95. Nope. by StarKruzr · · Score: 1

    RTA - it mentioned the nanobacteria being smaller than viruses.

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    +++ATH0
    1. Re:Nope. by J'raxis · · Score: 1

      Ah, OK, so flip #2 and #3. But you're still not going to get something smaller than an individual prion - these things are basically just molecules.

  96. Re:So how do we fight against infection from these by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >> I guess I'd better hurry up and get my patent for
    >>the anti^H^H^H^Hnanobiotics submitted.

    Could someone tell me what the " ^H^H^H^ " stands for?

    thankyou

  97. Re: Psst...I Can Sell You a Nice Bubble by Cruxus · · Score: 1
    Great. more reasons never to leave my desk. so many nasty little bugs out there ;)

    Don't feel like you need to be chained to your desk to avoid all those nasty microbes out there! For the very reasonable price of only $4,055, I will sell you a sterile bubble you can enjoy life in!

    Hurry! This special offer is for a limited time only. Don't miss out on the chance to be rolled down a steep hill, see the glare of the sun on your very own bubble, and breathe the poorly recirculated air!

    --
    On vit, on code et puis on meurt.
  98. DNA assumption by Atario · · Score: 1

    You're assuming all life must have DNA (or RNA) to be alive and reproduce. Surely there are other ways a living thing could exist than that specific set of atoms arranged that specific way.

    --
    "A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
    1. Re:DNA assumption by krmt · · Score: 1

      Fair enough, then demonstrate to me that this other genetic material exists. I'm not saying it doesn't, but we're a long way from proving that it does. Also, the current claims about nanobacteria's existence are hinged on the presence of DNA, so if that isn't really present then these researchers will probably back down on the entire idea or else demonstrate the presence and function of this other genetic material.

      --

      "I may not have morals, but I have standards."

  99. Drexler's bad dream by misterpies · · Score: 1


    nanometre-sized organisms reproducing: obviously it's grey goo. Some evil genius has built a molecular assembler and released it on the world.

    --
    The author of this post asserts his moral rights.
  100. Dr. Philippa Uwins and nanobes by goon · · Score: 1

    No article on Nanobacteria would be complete without a reference to Philla Uwins. A geologist who in 1999 was inspecting (deep, hot and old) drilling samples from the Western Australian coastline with a scanning electron microscope discovered unusual possible life forms from 20nm to 150nm, christening them nanobes. Well below the accepted 200nm miniumum thought possible for life. (it is thought that no living thing can contain the necessary machinary in containers below 200nm).


    What followed is probably more interesting than this reported story (the discovery of nanobes in blood and their possible link to disease predates this article). Things started to hot up in the nanobe world when some research money came forward to see if these nanobes contained the necessary DNA to disprove the many *non life advocates*. Even physicist Paul Davies (Australian centre for Astrobiology) pondered the possibility that nanobes could be a possible link between life and non-life.


    Armed with some results the Unwin team sent off a paper to every *major* reputable scientific journal only to have them turned down. The most common reason.... too controversial.



    So I read this story and think of *mayo* clinic and the *ohhh must be reputable* tag that goes with it and thinking why hasn't Nature or some other journal taken so long to publish these ideas?. Science publishing appears to be more about convincing publishers (and peers) less about looking at the data.


    The postscript to the story: The dot com crash in 2000 killed off more research into the DNA tests, the possible application of the nanobes into eating plastic (nanobes had a voracious appetite for petri dishes) and a potential commercial spin off. Phillipa still works at UQ.


    • assorted links

      http://www.uq.edu.au/nanoworld/uwins.html

      http://aca.mq.edu.au/PaulDavies/pdavies.html

      http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s2015 6. htm

      http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ss/stories/s132 23 5.htm

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273 ,3 840998,00.html

    --
    peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup
  101. Great.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Proof of nanobacteria leads to nano-antibiotics and their abuse will lead to resistant nanobacteria....
    My wife is right: it's the little things that get you!

  102. Nanobacteria - Sound like midichlorians to me by EddWo · · Score: 1

    Doesn't this sound familiar
    The boy nodded his understanding. "Can I ask you something?" The Jedi Master nodded. "What are midi-chlorians?"
    Wind whipped at Qui-Gon's long hair, blowing strands of it across his strong face. "Midi-chlorians are microscopic life-forms that reside within the cells of all living things and communicate with the Force."
    "They live inside of me?" the boy asked.
    "In your cells." Qui-Gon paused. "We are symbionts with the midi-chlorians."
    "Symbi-what?"
    "Symbionts. Life-forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. Our midi-chlorians continually speak to us, Annie, telling us the will of the Force."
    "They do?"
    Qui-Gon cocked one eyebrow. "When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to you."
    Anakin thought about it for a moment, then frowned. "I don't understand."
    Qui-Gon smiled, and his eyes were warm and secretive. "With time and training, Annie, you will."

    --
    "Taligent is still pure vapor. Maybe they'll be the last who jumps up on Openstep... "
  103. Don't be an idiot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Lets see, human milk is minium 15% cholesterol. No other species has a cholesterol concentration anywhere NEAR that amount...
    Requiring an infant to synthesize all of its own cholesterol would increase its metabolic requirements, reducing survival rates. It would also increase its liver size, leaving less space in the torso for other valuable organs. Furthermore, infants are prone to diarrhea due to their immature immune systems, which will likely interrupt their enterohepatic recirculation of bile salts, secondarily decreasing cholesterol availability at a time when they desperately need it to repair their enteric mucosa. Therefore it is reasonable to give the infant an undersized liver, and let the maternal liver take up the slack.
    If you want to eat foods made by machines, go for it. I prefer to survive on food that is 100% natural, grown straight from the earth and brought to my hands.
    Where "natural" == artificially-germinated*, artificial plants** grown on artificially-tilled soil.

    *Yes, hand-sowing of the last crop's seeds by a subsistence farmer is artificial. If God didn't put it there, it's artificial.

    **Every imporant staple has been genetically engineered for thousands of years. The animals too, for that matter.

    Either way, you also suffer from frequent bouts of constipation due to your excessive consumption of wheat opioid peptides.
    A massive dose of a pure opiod causes dramatic and unmistakable constipation. I can eat enormous amounts of wheat with little problems. The above hypothesis is thereby falsified.
    A huge number of vegan chicks I know have been or are currently taking psychotropic medications.
    A huge number of vegan chicks were nutjobs before they went vegan.
  104. Re:So how do we fight against infection from these by whereiswaldo · · Score: 1

    Could someone tell me what the " ^H^H^H^ " stands for?

    It's basically an escape sequence for the backspace key. If you see ^W, that deletes the last word instead of the last character.

  105. Evidence of Nanobacterial-like Structures in Human by dabydeen · · Score: 1

    Here's the journal article in question. 1: Am J Physiol Heart Circ Physiol. 2004 May 13 [Epub ahead of print] Related Articles, Links Evidence of Nanobacterial-like Structures in Human Calcified Arteries and Cardiac Valves. Miller VM, Rodgers G, Charlesworth JA, Kirkland B, Severson SR, Rasmussen TE, Yagubyan M, Rodgers JC, Cockerill FR, Folk RL, Kumar V, Farell-Baril G, Lieske JC. Department of Surgery, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, MN, USA; Department of Physiology and Biophysics, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, MN, USA. ... click the link to see the summary.

  106. no oragnelles in bacteria!!!! by kyknos.org · · Score: 1

    bacteria, being a PROCARYOTE, has NO organelles. only EUCARYOTA has them. organelles are former procaryotes living symbiotically inside eucaryotic cells

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    SHE does throw dice.