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Review of the Roku HD1000 Media Player
Animaether writes "Digital Producer magazine are running a review of the Roku HD1000 HD media player hardware. Between 'The unit crashed so much while I was testing it, I practically beat a path through the carpet to the unit's location on the shelf...' and 'Roku HD1000 misses by such a wide margin, it isn't worth buying', the review paints a pretty grim picture of this unit, and appears to put part of the blame on its Linux-based OS and software. The Roku HD1000 was previously covered here in December 2003."
Simon.
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Take care!
Erick
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appears to put part of the blame on its Linux-based OS and software.
I doubt it is Linux itself but the person(s) who set it up on that box. Probubally didn't really know what they were doing.
Evolution or ID?
A negative review and front-page linkage on /.? Good luck recovering from this one, Roku!
This is my United States of whatever.
There are just too many electronic gadgets on the market that are poorly designed and frustrating to use.
Engineers have a lot of great ideas and can even make them happen but there are a lot of angles they don't see or even think of. Many of the engineers aren't even the target users and don't really understand how something gets used.
This is one place I will give props to the military. They require Quality Assurance and testing by the user before they will sign off on something.
Evolution or ID?
It seems clear from the review that the application stack in the Roku is not ready for prime time, but that is not really the fault of Linux.
Other embedded-Linux applications have successfully made boot-time a non-issue.
Unfortunately, in an embedded application, the presentation is monolithic -- it either works or it doesn't. So, this is going to seriously adversely affect the image of Linux in Set-top-box applications.
How does the Slashdot Effect happen given that no slashdotters ever RTFA?
Yes, it can do these things, but because of its awkward Linux-based operating system and sluggish response, the thing acts like it doesn't want to.
My guess is that the reviewer is talking about the "operating system" of the Roku in a broad sense, and not in the sense that computer geeks do. He probably means "interface", and should not have included "Linux" in that sentence; after all, he does go on to praise the Tivo, which is also Linux based (as he himself says). Just bad writing, if you ask me.
What I like about this article is not that is blasts Linux, but Roku's implementation of it. I had considered getting one of these instead of modifying an Xbox to play media files (and yes, I've heard of the "Windows Media Center" machines, and I'm too damned cheap for that - I've decided to modify an Xbox myself and save the $).
;) ).
Anyway, the reviewer takes pains to note that the Tivo, which is also Linux based, is fast, responsive, and doesn't crash all of the time. Maybe this was a beta unit the reviewer recieved, but it seems as though the company hasn't tightened down the Roku's implementation and gone through a good QA session.
Too bad, really. I wouldn't mind finding a box that I could plug into the TV and stream my (personally, using Handbrake for OS X) XviD videos to my TV (to save wear and tear on my DVD's and keep my kids from getting thier fingerprints all over them) over my 802.11 connection.
Looks like I might as well get ready to order that Xbox and mod chip to "do it myself", since nobody in the industry seems to have a solution that does what I want yet. (Note: I know the Tivo can evidently tie into iTunes and iPhoto, but I haven't of it being able to read through a AFP or SMB share of movies and just play them. I'm willing to bet I'll see 10 responses regarding Myth or some such, so advise away - I'm holding off on the soldiering kit as long as I can
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
I have never heard this brand of media players but the snazzy-ness in the name implies as if they are trying to be the next TiVO. But after reading this review, I do not think that they stand even a slim chance.
/. article as the reviewer made a good point of Linux being used creatively and in a positive way in Tivo interface, but he says, Roku fails to use it properly.
Also, I do not agree with the "blame it on Linux mentality" point in the
These people like makers of Roku, in my opinion, lacks a business minded person on their board of directors, at least one very good example of this kind. Idea is good but marketing it half-baked is not going to do this company any favor. On contrary, they have a long way to back paddle from this point on. Wish them good luck but I know it will take more than just luck...
__________
The more I know people, the more I love animals
if you're producing a device like this for the general public, you'd better not make it hard to use or install.
It should be simple to use and the OS should be transparent to the user. It should be about as easy as using a DVD player. So simple my mom could use it. And if there is ever a problem a simple turning it off and then on again should fix.
Evolution or ID?
I hope this apparent lack of quality won't also be apparent in Roku's Soundbridge product, I've been pretty excited about that one. It looks like a good [non ugly] alternative to the Slim Devices stuff. The pricing is a little jacked though, the only difference between the 2 models is a bigger display and they want $250 for that.
The real question here is: How are we going to blame this on Microsoft?
does the reviewer get style points, for using a haiku in his review?
I get the sense that it's more an issue of lack of polish on the UI, and either buggy drivers/hardware/software rather than blaming linux for the unit crashing all the time.
e.
Build Your Own PVR/HTPC news, reviews, &
Linux doesn't crash! Seriously, if this company has that much of a problem with designing their interface to be stable, perhaps they shouldn't be in the consumer electronics game.
And if you read the article that really is what he is getting at. The slashdot spin has really been getting worse and worse.
Hauppauge MediaMVP stream the content from your existing PC to your TV for like 88beans street price... *shrug* it's not for everyone, but my buddy has it and I was surprised at how how well his quasi-pvr/home media center worked.
I'd rather build my own mini-itx htpc of course though =)
e.
PS I also believe there's quite the mediamvp hacking community (it doesn't support linux out of the box, from what I understand)
Build Your Own PVR/HTPC news, reviews, &
He does harp on the fact that it runs Linux pretty often, even when it's insignificant-- like the OS has something to do with a poor user interface.
'The unit crashed so much while I was testing it, I practically beat a path through the carpet to the unit's location on the shelf...' and 'Roku HD1000 misses by such a wide margin, it isn't worth buying', the review paints a pretty grim picture of this unit
Yes, yes, but can it run linux?
and appears to put part of the blame on its Linux-based OS and software
Oh.
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball(TM)
You would think with the hardware always being the same, that Linux would be configured perfectly. On my systems, they dont lock up, because I set it up right. Maybe the manufacturer didn't configure the OS correctly??
Since most of the problem seems to come from the 3rd party apps, what would really help them is a certification scheme. Though since when do reasonable people complain about 3rd poarty apps crashing and place the blame on the 1st party?
I'd do something interesting, but my server can't handle a slashdotting.
What's the obsession to run linux everywhere? Does it really need to do everything to be a good O/S? Maybe someday it will operate my refrigerator. init 0 to enter the Daddy-only food and beverage mode.
I don't believe that the instability of this unit is because of the Linux-based software it runs. There's many other stable Linux-based media devices out there, such as Sigma Designs EM8500 DVD players, the Dreambox DM7000S DVB Satellite Receiver, Hauppauge Media MVP, and more. Bravo manufactures Linux-based standalone DVD players using the Sigma Designs chipset, as one LKML message points out, for example. I myself put the instability onus squarely on the shoulders of Roku's product engineering, having seen myself some very successful applications of embedded uClinux technologies.
At the beginning of the article, they blame the problems on "the awkwardness" of Linux. Then at the end, they say that Tivo has proven that the problem isn't Linux. Am I missing something here?
OS the problem? Not in my experience. My home computer doubles as a jukebox (60 gigs worth of FLAC files, over 200 discs total) running XMMS on Linux. No problems whatsoever, let alone crashing. Attributing problems to "the OS" is just plain silly, considering the many other factors that are much more likely to be the source of problems.
"And this is news how? I won't even look at this unless it supports Ogg-Vorbis and Bob's crazy obscure audio format"
Other Roku hardware streams AAC files, unlike my TiVo.
AAC is obviously not as widespread as MP3s, but it isn't obscure.
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
Sure it sucks, but does it support OGG?
Viv
Gmail invites for ip
If this unit was Microsoft made, the OS would be blamed left and right.
Ahh, at least I'm not the only one here who sees the double standard.
* Anything Linux Based Product: Good!
* Any Linux Bug: Unskilled and/or incompetent Users
* Anything Window Based Product: Bad!
* Any Windows Bug: Unskilled and/or incompetent coders
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
"That's what they get for not using a production ready operating system. Why would anyone choose Linux when they can use Windows CE?"
The NSA uses Linux. It is more than production ready. I've never modified my Xbox, but it does crash from time to time. My TiVo has not. And let us not forget that Microsoft has used its OS in a PVR before, their very own UltimateTV, which failed in the face of TiVo.
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
I saw ads for the Soundbridge, and had been waiting for the first review -- hoping it would be the ideal device to play music stored on my (MacOS X) fileserver over a household wireless network.
So if the Soundbridge sucks, what is the consensus on the alternatives?
Yes, I'll agree it isn't perfect but it is interesting. It will pick up smb shares without a hitch from browsing your network. There is info available for doing NFS as well. I've got the weather plugin working perfectly. It's also nice viewing all my photos on a 42" HD Plasma. Most "media PC" type machines don't offer component out especially with support for 1080i which is what I run. If you buy one be sure to grab the latest firmware and also install the copy/delete programs so you can easily delete some of the built in stuff. You can also do all that through telnet too. I would like to know if it's possible to overclock the CPU. I'd willingly put a larger heatsink on mine if it'd help performance. Video support still needs more work too. All in all, I do like it.
The reviewer seems to stress the fact over and over again, with a much redundnacy, and many repeats, simply restating the idea that the unit locked up a lot. Maybe *gasp* he had a defective unit...
And it doesn't seem he has anything against Linux besides a poor word choice. He even sort of commends Linux on the TiVo.
LilMikey.com... I'll stop doing it when you sto
HBO did a funny movie about military QA a while back. I think it still exists on video. Nothing I would buy, but it's a good rental.
Free Mac Mini Yeah, it's
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
300 is low for a PC, but this is a consumer AV device. 300 is pretty high end in that market, just look at the Xbox pricing.
Free Mac Mini Yeah, it's
Ahh, at least I'm not the only one here who sees the double standard.
Yeah, 'cause for a second there I thought you were the only one with that observation, luckily after all these years on slashdot someone had the guts to post what the grandparent posted! All of those Apple and Linux threads we've seen, and nobody has pointed out the double standard that exists among all slashdot users (even you, deep inside your heart)
I am surprised that the review was this bad. I don't own one of these, but I have been following some discussions about them on avsforum.com, thinking I may soon buy one.
On avsforum, there are certainly complaints, and people asking for more features, but nothing as bad as this guy's review.
Also, I think the review may have been a bit aggressive. The advertised features of the Roku are for display of digital images and audio - in an HDTV environment. The other things this guy reviewed are not part of the advertised features, they are third party applications and extensions. These extensions are encouraged by Roku.. they talk quite a bit about their open Linux platform. But, you can't really condemn Roku because of bad third party apps.
He also says that the third party apps had a distinct beta feel. Well, that's because they are beta apps.. or even alpha. If Roku provided the apps, they made a tactical error. If the guy downloaded them himself, he didn't read the descriptions very thoroughly.
Based on what I have read from Roku users, my feel for the product is this: The core feature set of HD display of images via flash or network connections works well. As does playback of MP3/AAC audio files over the network. The third party apps - to stream HDTV captures or DVD VOB files is in its infancy. They work for some people, but are not mature or reliable enough for common use. I am waiting for HDTV streaming and control before I buy one. I would like to use the Roku for playback of HD files captured with a MyHD PCI card - the combination giving something close to PVR functionality (record one program, while watching another).
Home Theater Spot gave the unit a favorable review here . Based on their reveiw, the unit looks pretty nice.
If I had any modpoints, they would be yours.
Instead, I will offer an explanation:
People here seem to follow the "You get what you pay for" motto pretty closely. If somebody gives you something for free and there is a problem with it, well, it's your problem. Wheras if you BUY something and there is a problem with it, it's the provider's problem.
I disagree entirely, as I believe everybody should be paid for their work, that no product is perfect and that it is just as wrong to provide half-assed service for free as it is to charge for it. You don't give soiled clothes to the Salvation Army or spoiled milk to needy school children. But like I said, most people here have some opinion that things that aren't perfect aren't worth paying for, and things that are perfect still aren't worth paying for (*cough* iPod) until they're MORE perfect. Strange, that free software should attract so many demanding cheapskates...
Oh, who are also quite community oriented and willing to help you fix or workaround bugs in other peoples' systems. Just wanted to interject that so I don't look like a complete Troll.
Hey freaks: now you're ju
I wonder if maybe they just had a bad unit. They didn't say anything about trying to get RoKu to replace the unit...
Hell, there are no rules here. We're trying to accomplish something. - Thomas Edison
However, like the Roku, the sucker is unstable and crashes at least once a week. I mean, the whole bloody thing just shuts down, and you end up with an awful burst of snow and white-noise on the TV. Then, it takes something like 5 minutes for it to boot back up again. It's either poor hardware design, or poor software engineering to support the hardware.
Tivo showed us that a company is fully capable of doing the right things with Linux. But, what's amazing is that nobody appears to have bothered to learn from Tivo as an example in how to do things right: whether Roku or DishNetwork.
As an aside, according to this, older versions of the DVR ran XFS for file management. My 522 DVR probably does as well. I wonder if the file system is unstable?
= 9J =
Here's a suggestion: MS intentionally paid for this shitty device to be built, in order to show the /. community (after all, who is ever going to hear about this device, never mind the fact that it runs Linux) that Linux based things can suck, too. It's all a giant conspiracy. [Conspiracy theories tend to be popular here]
As so many people are wont to say, Linux isn't an Operating System. It's just a kernel. The Operating System is the series of tools that work on top of the kernel.
Therefore, the Linux OS used by the NSA, the Linux OS used on my webservers, the Linux OS that's on the Zaurus, the Linux OS on the Tivo, and Roku's own Linux OS, are all COMPLETELY different systems. There are many similarities...but you can't make a blanket statement like "Linux is ready for prime time." It is for some implementations of the OS, and not for others. I certainly wouldn't consider an HDTV driver that crashes as often as this reviewer suggests to be ready for prime time -- and I hope this machine isn't using the high level encryption that the NSA uses in theirs.
Hey freaks: now you're ju
The only other thing I've found as unreliable as mplayer is samba, which (again, speaking of redhat9 experience) is badly broken. Opening the network browser once ensures that the very next time you open it, nothing is going to work right - you won't even get workgroup browse icons. The gnome browser will have to crash and samba be restarted before you can browse again (for one more session, then repeat.)
The problem with open source efforts such as mplayer and samba seems to me to be that since there is little or no profit to be had from the effort, many times people aren't continuously motivated (or forced by management, if required) to create the best possible product.
In these two cases, MS's technology is far superior to at least what came with my Linux OS. That doesn't bode well for a product that is likely to live on a network with PC's, and plays media. I can imagine the trail in the rug to the device, truly I can.
And before you dismiss me as some rabid MS fan, believe me, I'm not. I'm strictly a Linux user, except at work, where I do not have that option.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Riko who?
Hmmm.
I bought one of these because the ads and the prior Slashdot article sold me on the idea of having Bill Gates' art walls in my house, and while I will give credit to Roku for putting together a good concept, the review is spot-on with regards to slow response to the remote, slow moving between media files and crash crash crash. I spent several hours on the phone with one of the software developers at one point because I just couldn't get it to play music out of my network share (100baseT wired to Win2K3 server) without stuttering every few seconds. We tried everything and then, it just started working, with no apparent reason.
Some other problems we noted -- the single USB port is too close to other important jacks so using a USB Wireless ethernet "thumb" puts a lot of strain on the jack. The on-screen keyboard for entering share names and passwords doesn't support anything but letters/numbers, so share names with dashes and underlines and complex passwords can't be entered unless you telnet into the Roku box and set things that way. I have to jam on the buttons for the remote to have them register even when I touch the tip of the remote to the sensor eye (fresh batteries, too). And on and on. Coupled with the slooooooow response and picture flipping, and I don't use this box at all. The box needs to have a SPDIF optical port out also.
BTW, can I mention how slow? I have a music share with about 375 albums and thousands of songs, organized by artist/album. It usually takes over 30 minutes (yes!) to read through that the first time and display it for choosing. And don't leave the directory once there, because it has to reload it again with the same wait. On a 100baseT switched unemcumbered network, no less.
As an aside, for purely music functions, the Squeezebox network player from Slim Devices is the opposite of the Roku in every way. Small, fast, sounds spectacular, easy to configure, loaded with useful features... put your money on that.
-- Gary Goldberg KA3ZYW 301/249-6501 AIM:OgGreeb Digital Marketing Inc., Bowie, MD
I was in touch with the author. He in no way meant to slander Linux. He is actually a big fan. He lamented that he may have mixed up the parts of the OS with the hardware specific drivers and interface. I thought it was a decent article and upon second reading I see how you can easily assume one way or the other about his stance on Linux.
The review is by Charlie White.
Now, it may well be that the thing is not ready for prime time, although some other reviewers seem to think it is.
It's just that, I've read Good Old Charlie's stuff before, reviewing things I'm intimately familiar with.
His experiences, conclusions, and pretty much everything else conflicted with mine so much that I now simply trash anything with his byline without reading it at all (I didn't notice his byline on this article until the bottom of page 2; in other words, the end. I wish I'd noticed it earlier, coulda saved some time).
The catch is that the HD1000 only has a very limited amount of memory, and it's quite easy to run out -- at which point lockups and other bad behavior are not surprising.
For example, its SDK comes with a native toolchain that runs directly on the HD1000. But if you try running gcc on there without first setting up a swap device, you're in for a world of trouble.
If you do have swap enabled (not something the typical end-user can do), then the machine is quite solid. I have mine up for days a time while doing development on it and generally the only time I actually have to reboot is if I call some API the wrong way putting the hardware into a confused state.
I didn't see any mention of firmware revision in the linked review. Roku labs has released several updates to improve speed and stability, but out of the box there's no guarantee you'll have the latest one already installed. Samba apparently eats up lots of memory for each mounted share, so I think recent firmware revisions will refuse to mount more than four of them. But I don't know if older revisions have that self-protection built in.
Also, usually to reboot you only have to hold down the power button for a couple seconds, rather than actually reaching around back to unplug the thing. If this didn't work for them (perhaps they just didn't know about it) then I'd suspect faulty hardware.
One thing just about everyone will agree on, though, is that the remote just plain sucks :-)
Bullshit. It's got nothing to do with the fact that it's Linux, and not Windows. It has to do with the fact that the Tivo, which is Linux-based, is apparently well designed (I don't know...I haven't seen one personally), whereas this Roku thing (doesn't that sound like someone off LOTR?), which is also Linux-based, apparently sucks.
Notice:
Tivo - Linux - Good.
Roku - Linux - Bad.
Windows never entered the equation at all, until you brought it in yourself.
Of course, if it ran Windows, and it got a virus/worm/spyware/trojan infestation, then it would be totally the OS's fault.
"City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
"the review paints a pretty grim picture of this unit, and appears to put part of the blame on its Linux-based OS and software."
And for this, fellow Slashdotters, he MUST BE PUNISHED!!! ARRRGHHHH! MAN THE STOCKADE!
Must be something unique to your setup since I use Samba here all the time with Windows XP without any problems with my Red Hat 9.0 server running Samba.
I've seen the Zaurus boot before and it was nearly "instant on". It was certainly faster than my Nokia cell phone.
That's because your Zaurus doesn't have to deal with a SIM card. Authenticating towards the SIM, and reading a few files from it, plus trying to find a network does make phones slow to startup.
I wonder how hackable this thing is. If it's possible to install a *different* version of Linux on it (or even Win98SE for the mostly non-Linux literate folks like me)and how fast its processor is and what amount of RAM it has. and I wonder if the extra cost would be worth all the component outputs, or if an Xbox would be better for that sort of thing... It would probably cost more and be harder to hack, but might you get better performance? Or would you be better off building your own sub-$300 PC with decent specs or even getting an Xbox for the performance/cost tradeoff?
Hard work pays off tomorrow, but procrastination pays off NOW!
I select the hat (start button), network servers, and the first time through, I get a nice window with "MyGroup" (the linux machines) and "anothergroup" (the PC's the rest of my family uses.) You can click thru, they work just like you'd expect.
Now, I close the window. No more, no less.
Select start / network servers again, and zoink, I get the workgroups, but next level in, underneath them, no icons, folders, etc.
To make it work again, I'll have to reboot or wait for the gnome window to crash. It may be that logging out of gnome is enough - I've gotten out of the habit of using the gnome window samba because its so frustrating.
Ill try it now, then add a note here (as it will cose my browser, of course)
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
It's a workaround, at least.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Obligatory mythtv post, as of yesterday at v0.15.
(New release. Many new features, much UI enhancement)
Absolutely rocks, and is used for HDTV, probably works better than the reviewed box on a fast PC.
http://www.mythtv.org
Although we will of course have to wait for them to get out of Japan, I wouldn't mind buying a product like these nagase or buffalo players, or even this one
They've been out a while now, so most of the bugs should be gone, and I'd say that with the number of machines coming out, within a year they will be as ubiquitous as those supermarket $70 divx dvd players.
I think it's valid to keep reminding people that the Roku is, in fact, a Linux-based device. It simply adds credibility to the reviewer's assertions that the product is "half baked" and not ready for prime-time. If they're crashing that often on a *Linux* based unit, imagine how their code might behave on a less stable platform!
I think many people are starting to favor devices advertising the use of embedded Linux (Linksys routers, for example, or the Rio MP3 Car/Empeg Car players that were out a while ago) over competing products. For starters, they believe in the stability, but also, they know there is potential for 3rd. party modifications to add new functionality. It's important to be aware of exceptions to the rule, like this Roku product - so it doesn't tarnish the rep of Linux-based devices of all types.
Actually, if you gave your soiled clothes to the salvation army, the volunteers would scowl at you. They throw them away...so basically, you just made their job harder.
Hey freaks: now you're ju
I own one of the Roku HD-1000's. I replaced my Turtle beach audiotron with it. I would have to admit, although the HD-1000's is a bit immature, it's not as bad as that review. The only time I had lockups is when you mount a large number of samba/network shares and the unit runs out of memory or you have network problems. After I condensed my shares I've never had a lockup again. (I've owned it for 3 months.) Yes it takes a minute to boot and load the OS. After that it's on all the time. I use this unit to browse over 60,000 MP3's. It uses directory based navigation. If you arrange them logically in directories, navigation works fine. Compare this against the 30,000 limit of the audiotron that must scan all Mp3's or load a vtoc file during it's boot. I also have a modded XBOX with the Media center on it. Out of the Audiotron, Xbox and HD-1000, the HD-1000 sounds much better. Pictures look better. The remote and interface is a bit sluggish, then again so was the XBOX media center. IMO, it's a small price to pay for not having limits on file access and having the ability to install user apps or program your own.