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Realistic Driving Simulator Games?
modoquasi writes "I have a son approaching the age when it is legal to hurtle through the air at insurance-raising speeds. I would like to educate him to hurtle safely and legally as soon as possible, and not use my car to do it. I thought I would find a number of driving simulator/educators for teens at home. but all I found are the likes of GTA Vice City and Crazy Taxi. Though Big Mutha Truckers might educate him on correct parking procedures in tight spots, I don't think it covers four-way-stops and passing on a double yellow line. Do the readers of Slashdot have any clues where to find this type of software?"
Two words: Gran Turismo.
Get a good steering wheel, shifter, and pedals, and your son will be doing clutchless double-downshifts, lift-throttle shifts, and heel-and-toe driving in no time. I've seen nothing closer in realism for street cars. And it's a great way to learn how to react in "panic" situations.
brought forth This beauty. Now to dig deeper and find an OSS game or two...
No one ever says, 'I can't read that ASCII E-mail you sent me.'
Mafia: La Cosa Nostra actually has fair traffic rules and a good physics system... if you don't mind driving a Model T up a hill at 5 MPH. And getting shot at by a rival family. If you're just doing the driving, it's like GTA: Capone Edition.
And now, for a sig that's a complete copout.
...so what, specifically is wrong with GTA Vice City? I've actually learned a lot about driving playing that game. I guess the only advice I'd give is 1. if you collide head-on, you WILL die. 2. If you drive off the top of a building you will not land gracefully and earn $212.
BTM
That was the turning point of my life--I went from negative zero to positive zero.
Yes, In an alternate universe where boring things are exciting and people play video games to fall asleep.
If you don't have your head in the ground, use this. It may be a racing game but the physics are extremely well thought out.
Kinda hard to miss honestly
Get paid to code OSS
how bout you just spend some time with the kid & go teach him yourself? there will never be an electronic substitute for what a kid learns directly from his parents.
Not everything can be simulated. Not everything that can be simulated should be simulated.
I can't say that I don't give a fuck. I've just run out of fuck to give.
I learned in part with Sierra Driver's Education '99 software, which is no longer sold. It worked well, and included audio books of tutorials, multiple-choice tests, and a driving simulator of "Virtual City." I quickly lost seriousness and learned the finer points of running red lights and dodging traffic while going the wrong way on the freeway.
its not a simulation of real (street legal) cars, but its an excellent sim that includes many of the things you have to deal with in real cars.
Investigate advanced driving courses, road safety. Try and find an advanced driver to take him out as a passenger, road commentry, go/no go decisions etc.
Track day, take him to a race track and pay for him to have a days instruction. Also pay for him to be driven round at speed.
Buy one book for him. Roadcraft: the police drivers handbook. Quite simply the best manual for driving. It's a UK publication, has been going for 80 years with revisions.
Make him buy the car and pay for the insurance. If you are going to pay for this make sure it goes through his bank account, so he has the money and has to write the cheques.
I used driving simulators but never with a steering wheel and pedals. Instead I used a joystick, or even the keypad. This dampened my interest, and so I waited until behind-the-wheel training.
No matter how realistic the software, the lack of a realistic input device destroys the idea of practicing.
An excellent racing sim - still "in development" but with very accurate physics... Live For Speed. It's not OSS, and for Win32 only.
For OSS racing sims, there's Racer, or TORCS.
Realistic racing sims like LFS are a great tool for teaching a new driver, IMHO, because they'll teach respect for control of your vehicle. and that there are consequences to bad driving... unlike some of the "arcade-y" driving games where it's not even possible to get go off the track.
I'm sure lot of people will recomend Gran Turismo (1, 2 or 3). And while it is an amazing simulator, there is one big issue that might not help your son learn how to drive. Mainly, that there is no damage modeling. You hit a wall at 120mph+ and you bounce backwards, perhaps spin a little. There are some benefits to the game, but I don't think it'll be the best way to teach someone how to drive.
I learned to drive at 16, and didn't play GT2 until I was 20 or so. I already knew how to 'drive' (commuting wise, not racing wise), so in a sense, it helped fill up my driving dictionary, rather then helping me to start writing it. I really don't know how much GT would have helped me if I played it before I was 16. Further, I've found that any time I drive after playing a racing game, I tend to drive too fast on the streets. Maybe its the adrenaline, but I also sometimes fool myself into thinking that driving that fast is 'safe', because if I crash nothing will happen (or at worst I have to hit the reset button).
All in all, I really don't know if there is any better experience then real experience behind the wheel of a car. The fear/excitement/etc I remember the first time I sat in the drivers seat has never been matched by any virtual enviroment.
I really think GT (and other simulation based racers) really helped teach me about the differences between FWD, RWD, AWD, understeer, oversteer, driving on ice, rain, mud, snow, etc. In that sense, I found GT very helpful, but I bet sitting behind a wheel helped even more.
"However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation."
Really, track lessons (as in slolam) teach you a lot about how a car handles. and more importantly, how a car handles before and after you've lost control. Put some extra pressure in the tyres of the family car, join a club and go to the track with him once he's gotten his license. Make him into one of those arrogant pricks who laughs at the rice boys doing burnouts. As in, "haha, look at that dork losing all his energy and adding extra seconds to his time doing a burnout."
Aside from that you might want to look at Racer
www.racer.nl It's being used by some schools to design cars. No traffic logic in it, but it's an "accurate" simulation of car handling.
Originally, if I remember the story correctly, this game was used for Law Enforcement/Student Drivers due to it's very realistic physics and force feedback. Later adapted into a game by Atari since there wasn't a huge market for it.
One of my favorites and was a good way to understand how to drive a clutch 'n stick.
There was some bus driving game from the Dreamcast in Japan, never played it myself. But who knows, might be a close approximation.
Although you would think that a driving simulator should help a kid to drive, I'm skeptical.
... and they don't come anywhere close to the forces you regularly experience in a car.
;)
I think driving simulators lack a couple of things that are very important to teaching the kid:
- 360 degree vision
- true depth for depth perception and focus at a distance
- actual control sizes and distances (to pedals)
- true control feedback (think steering feedback, brake and especially clutch pedal feedback)
- g-forces and motion
etc...
Having worked on flight simulators and knowing what goes into a real training simulator, I would expect you would end up with negative training (training for something that will actually be different in real life that you will have to un-learn)
Real flight simulators have merit, but they have actual aircraft controls and instruments, have hydraulic motion bases, collimated visuals, meet exact standards for control and visual feedback (both force and timing), etc...
My advice: rent or borrow an actual car. Teach him on backstreets or in empty parking lots. Maybe use a car with a parking brake lever between the front two seats... and keep your hand on it!
Point 2. applies to me in game. My tally for cars destroyed consists primarily of cars flipped within 10 seconds of their starting position. And yet I've had only one minor parking incident in my 5 years of driving.
If you want to know how violent it could be to drive like a maniac look at Vice City (eg. t-boning a truck on a speeding RJ600 makes me fly very, very far). As for real driving, the best thing I can offer is give your son actual driving experience. Preferably with someone who isn't irrational on the road themselves. I've been lucky to have had little negative result from driving mistakes I've made, but near misses (both experienced and personally observed) have given me infinitely more experience in how to avoid dangerous driving situations than any amount of virtual driving or instruction.
click-clack, front and back. I'm not moving this car otherwise.
Sorry, but I actually drive a real car, and Gran Tourismo is nothing but a caricature of physics. Particularly where rear-wheel drive cars are concerned.
And, yes, I've done power drifts in a real car (I was young and foolish then).
Moreover, the LAST thing you want to teach a sixteen year old is how to drive fast. Because what a beginning driver really lacks is the judgement to know WHEN they can drive fast safely. Far better to teach them safe driving, and do the race car course next year or the year after.
Jon Acheson
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
Yeah, you can learn a lot from your dad....
I will of course be spending hours with him behind the wheel once he reaches permit age (I will wear a blindfold and have my will up to date), and hopefully even some before on acceptable roads. My hope was to give him additional--above and beyond--schooling in signage, lights, rules and the like well before that time. thanks everyone
- The car behavior (oversteer, understeer, etc.) is hugely exaggerated and simplified. There's virtually no weight shift when cornering. In my many hours playing the game I don't recall any torque steer from FWD or all too common counter skid from overcorrecting in a RWD car.
- Real streets have varying road surfaces and obstacles that affect traction.
- Most importantly, car controls (gas, brakes, steering, etc.) are not on/off switches like most gaming controls.
Take him out and drive with him, several times a week for an hour or so at a time. The best places are large, empty parking lots. Take it slow, and work on the basics like starting and stopping, parking, parallel parking, and learning where the boundaries of your car are.
This will be worth ten million videogames to the both of you.
Jon Acheson
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
The only necessary "skill" that video games can teach is the idea of controlling something indirectly, through controls. Other then that, you can't "simulate" driving any better, as you'll just be teaching how to drive a car with a joystick or a keyboard, not useful skills.
Forcing him to "play" stupid "games" will just strain your relationship for no gain.
You're seeking the wrong solution. Using a computer isn't going to teach your son a damn thing about driving.
:)
Why don't you take him out to an empty parking lot show him the basic controls? Have him drown around a bit w/o even touching th gas pedal (presumably you have an auto trans and the car gets rolling as soon as your foot is off the brake). Teach him how to gently use the break to keep the car from going too fast w/o stopping it all together. Once he learns how to work the brake gently, teach him how to do the same with the gas.
Once he's good at making circles in the empty parking lot in a controlled fashion, do not take him to the street - even though he's ready. Get some orange cones or something, set them up in a box and have him park in the box. Teach him to park backwards and forwards, and force him to use the mirrors to do so. Teaching him to use the mirrors before he ever gets onto the street is the best thing you can do. Once he's been driving around the streets, he's going to see the mirrors and the whole parking thing as an annoying hastle. But if he learns to park and use mirrors first, he'll have a better appreciation for the dimensions of the car before he is ever out on the street.
Now take him on an empty road. Teach him that if a car gets behind yours, to signal right and pull over a bit so the car can pass. This will let your kid drive around on a real street but without having to worry too much about other traffic. Teach him to do stop signs, making sure he understands the right of way in the various situations.
As he gets more experience and confidence, you can take him into roads with higher speed limits, red lights. Teach him how to make left turns. Go out with him in the middle of the day and tell him which turns to take. Without him knowing it, take him onto the freeway (do pick a time when it's likely to be empty) and guide him through merging. This is what my dad did when I was learning. He didn't make a big deal out of it, we just "ended up" on the freeway, and he's like "you just did what is probably the hardest aspect of driving - merged into freeway traffic"
In general, use your brain and have patience with your kid. Make sure he knows that cars are dangerous. Explain to him that hitting pedestrians and byciclists is an expensive amusement. Tell him that if the brakes ever fail, aim to crash into the cheapest car rather than the shiny new Benz.
No video game is going to replace your having to go through it with him. Do use your car. Start off in a completely safe area. Let him get a feel for the controls and the dimensions of the vehicle. Then take is gradually from there.
Next thing you know he'll be able to do the 500 mile drive from Cleveland to NYC all on his own, a week after getting his licence, like I did.
If he DOES do that, do teach him how to parallel park first. Because I had to figure it out on my own once I got to Brooklyn
Ecce Europa - Web Design for Business
Sweat comes to mind...
Translation: I have a son. He will soon be able to legally destroy my car. How can I make a token effort to avoid this with the least effort possible?
Here's a hint: the rules of the road are boring That's why I keep getting speeding fines. Who in their right mind would make a video game full of them?The games will give him quicker reflexes. That's about it.
Fork out for an advance driving course if you really want him to learn something.
it's called a joke.
I don't see what's wrong with Grand Theft Auto. Just make sure to stand next to him as he plays it and repeat regularly "and if you ever do that to my car, I'll kill you"
I can't believe no one else has linked this already...
First buy several acres of grassland, then git a ridin' mower... put your son on it with the blades ridin' high... let him have fun... he'll get the basics of steering, braking, throttle, accelerating, etc. Then take him out in a beat-up mercury on some dirt roads and teach him how to maintain speed while going up and down hills... then a two lane road where he will have to pass slow tractors only when there's a broken yellow... then a four-way stop with no stop signs, then a highway with big ditches on the shoulders to keep you on the road... finally a parking lot near a pancake or waffle shop with a gun shop next door.
well that's how I learned.
have fun.
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
Both the Racer binary (couldn't compile: "ar: q3ddlg.o: File format not recognized") and TORCS (compiled fine) freezed my X completely, and I had to hard-reboot (ctrl-alt-backspace does not kill X on my cheap mobo, the machine enters sleep mode instead). Ah, and it's a GeForce2 (nVidia driver 1.0-5336), kernel 2.6.6.
An other (unrelated) problem I have here is that many OpenGL apps seems to run in software mode (< 5fps, depending on the game). Note that, for instance, Quake3Arena runs with decent (> 50) fps.
The only racing game for linux runned ok for me was carworld, that suffers the same from other Free games: the guts of the game are working, but the game is far from complete, not even playable. They seem to have a tendency to stagnate at this (production/polishing) stage.
I'm a huge huge fan of arcade racing games. I've played them all. Everything from Pole Position to the rare Virtua Racing 2. There are exactly two racing games that I would rank as the most realistic.
1) Ferrari 355 Challenge. This is a rare game to find indeed. You can recognize it because of its 3 monitors and bright red ferrariness. This is a large expensive arcade machine and they usually charge like a buck to play. But its as close to a Ferrari as you can get without shelling out $200K.
Here it is
2) Nascar Silicon Alley motor speedway. I think these are all out of business now. But there used to be one in the PPP (Palisades Mall in NY). Its really really big and costs a lot to play. You sit in a full size Nascar "pod" with a projector in front of you and everything is exactly like a real stock car. It's the most realistic driving experience I've ever had. I know it was the real thing because I tried to drive like it was Cruisin' USA and I kept spinning out and not being able to get going again.
Other than that you are going to have to search for actual driving simulators that they use to teach driving. As far as video games go, those are the most realistic.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
Over here the typical driving instructor's car has brake pedals on the instructors side, so the instructor can slam on the brakes if the student does something stupid/dangerous. A handbrake just doesn't cut it, if your kid really sucks.
And if your kid adds some "unusual wear and tear" on the car it isn't to your car.
That's what my parents did - they sent me for about double the typical hours of instruction - just to gain real road experience - even though my driving instructor was a bit unconventional - for the later part of my driving lessons, much of the time was spent driving my instructor from place to place as he did his errands (buy groceries, send them to his mom, miles away) - even driving in rush hour traffic. It kinda worked out - I passed first try.
Go look at the plane flying scene - after you learn the basics (and are in less danger of killing yourself or others), it's the hours of flying time that count. Of course you could go for the advanced driving stuff - that's useful too.
Most people where I am try to go for the minimum number of lessons to save money, but what happens is they can pass the tests, but they can _barely_ drive safely.
Heck I know a few kids who've crashed their family cars soon after passing their driving tests. And I wouldn't trust their driving. They treat it like it's a _game_.
So I'm not sure if a "game" would be good.
After the instructor is done with them, you can teach them how to be safer.
Try stuff like distracting them whilst they are driving (in safe+controlled conditions)- drop something on the mat, if they should NOT get distracted overly by that. I mean something dropping on the passenger side mat is unlikely to be a bomb or anything dangerous.
If you're travelling at 100km/h, or 80km/h in heavy traffic, if you spend one or two seconds looking at the floor, it could be your last few seconds of your life as a fully abled individual.
Through the game, my son has picked up the basics of driving. He's learned a few things about traction, speed and cornering. But I've noticed that there are some things that he simply can't "get" no matter how much he practices and I coach.
I think one of the biggest reasons for this is, as another poster noted elsewhere, GT may be the best driving simulator, but it's really not all that great when compared with the real thing. GT doesn't supply a big enough field of view, it doesn't supply G-forces or enough kinesthetic feedback, and it certainly doesn't make you scared of hitting things.
The limitations of the gaming platform mean that, at best, Gran Turismo will remind an experienced driver of certain events/actions -- it doesn't provide enough feedback to provide that experience. For instance, if you're driving (in GT) a normal car with a loose suspension and brake hard, you'll see the car nosedive. You won't feel it nosedive, you won't feel the G-force pushing you toward the steering wheel, and you won't feel the sudden lack of those forces if your tires break traction. An experienced driver will see the dip in GT and know what it means, and react to it. To my son, it's just a visual effect.
So, I plan to load my kid into my hopped-up '94 Integra and take him to a parking lot. That will probably provide a lot more real-world experience than Gran Turismo ever will.
There'll be a lot of "learn the rules" software out there (your local driving instruction department may be able to list one that's applicable to your country), but bear in mind that having a good rules basis is only part of it.
:)
Like previous posters, I'd also heartily recommend titles like Gran Turismo 3, Burnout 1/2, Driver, GTA 3/VC, as these (wierdly enough) teach driving skill. Now bear with me here, I'm not wierd
In order to be successful in any of these games requires the driver to be spatially aware, pay attention to their surroundings, and react appropriately given the constraints around them. Whilst you're going to have to explicitly have to discourage emulation of gaming behaviour in The Real World(tm), simply having the threat analysis mental systems in place may prove beneficial in the log run - my parents happily admit that they suspect my accident-free RL driving history is due to all the driving games I played as a kid.
That said, all the virtual practice in the world is only part of the picture - nothing matches up to the real-world feel of driving.
...we just went to an large vacant parking lot(school, mall, etc.) on the weekends and drove around. Simple, safe, and educational. It's better than any video game...
My mom always said, "Jim, you're 1 in a million." Given the current population, there are 7000 of me. God help us all!
Most realistic driving physics I've found thus far in a driving game (and I'm a car geek).
Also, don't be one of those god awful parents that doesn't teach their kid to drive stick.
Keep Austin Weird!
this game has good feedback in steering and brakes and is the closest to driving a real car I've ever tried. see This Page
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
Get them a gocart, helmet, seatbelt.
Let em tear up a field a couple weekends a month from 8 - 16. By 16 they will be a skilled go-kart driver ready for drivers ed.
I can say owning a gokart as a kid has kept me out of at least 2 accidents, quick reaction time and get out the way of trouble. On the other hand I have trouble following speed limits(40+ tickets).
Best car racing game ever. You get bonus points for driving as dangerously as possible, and the crash mode has you try to flip and smash your vehicle at an accident blackspot so as to cause the maximum possible carnage.
I know, +1 Funny, but Akklaim have a page about how "Burnout 2 saved my life".
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
I had a go kart as a kid and I credit it for me accident free driving record (knock on wood) for the 7 years I've been driving.
On the other hand I did crash the go kart numerous times and unlike the new models I paid for it. My go kart had a steering wheel support bar that went up between your legs and no seat belt. The new models seem to have no such bar and ample seat belts.
So, if you can find a go kart with a crotch bar you kid will learn what happens when he takes turns too quickly and ends up in a ditch or hits a tree.
There are karting facilities all over the country (my local one is F1 Boston). Not only is it a fun experience (and you can experience it TOGETHER), it is a great introduction to motorsport.
In addition to open racing, most facilities have leagues in which your son could compete (league racing is much more economical than open racing).
While you're at it, drop Going Faster! in his lap. This is a fantastic book which brings driving down to a science. Maybe he can even use it to counter all the crap they teach you in Driver's Ed (IMO, driver's ed causes as many accidents as it avoids).
Okay, so I know. "I don't want my kid racing!" Tell you what. Do a survey of race drivers at all levels vs. soccer moms. Drivers are fully aware of the dangers of driving and are by FAR more knowledgeable in how to deal with not only standard driving situations, but also extraordinary situations.
I've always had problems with people who DON'T know how to race, because they don't understand the dynamics of taking a turn (racers maximize the radius of a turn, allowing more speed in a race situation or more "wiggle room" in a street situation) or how to deal with a problem (most drivers hit the brakes, as they were taught to do in drivers' ed., usually resulting in a lock; brake lock = no traction, race drivers recognise the situation, adjust their driving line, and just keep on keeping on). Ever notice that screeaching brakes often ends in a THUD? Those people never learned to race.
And for the love of God, teach him to put down the goddamn phone!
:wq
The game "Driver" might be a good choice. It's got realistic traffic, a damage model that's at least more realistic than most games out there, and a freeform mode that you could put to use for some dry runs before you actually take him out to play in real traffic. You can find it for the PC on most $9.99 racks, it will run on an older machine, and it's been ported to a number of video game platforms as well (YMMV). All this, and it's a fun game, too.
Also, if you don't like the getaway driver/true crime themes of the previous, you might also look for Midtown Madness, which is a racing-themed game with realistic traffic, a freeform mode, and a fairly detailed simulation of downtown Chicago. It might be a bit harder to find, though. Again, a fun game.
I think I have a copy of Road Rash around here somewhere -- I left it next to my copy of Need For Speed...
I would recommend a professional driving school like bondurant or skip barber. not cheap, but compared to a car wreck or DUI it's not a bad investment. this will teach him the basic intuition needed to control a car in a variety of traction and speed circumstances. A real car with no reset button to fix his mistakes.
Train him on Battlefeld 1942, then just buy your son an APC. The APC may not have airbags, but the armor will keep him safe.
ok, i'ts old now, but for about $10 you should be able to pick up Colin McRae Rally 2.
Now, after playing Gran Tourismo 3 to death, I thought I'd got car control down, like Formula 1 quality cornering - I was cocky. BUT - the thing CMR2 taught me that should be useful to any driver is that safe driving and avoiding damage makes you win. Playing CMR2 I learnt to drive much more carefully and under much better control, because every time you touch the scenery some aspect of your cars performance *suffers*.
Initially it's horribly frustrating, but now I really like the driving model.
'This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it' - Eeyore
Hello, This one is for sale in Europe. It tries to teach the rules and safe driving. It is not as beautiful or streamlined as a real game. I think it's quite hard due to the interface. http://www.3d-fahrschule.de/uk_index.htm Greetings, Brompie.
When you can taste an oncoming truck you know you're in trouble!!
Midtown Madness (maybe "2") provides for some nice, uneventful driving and some crazy chases if you want. I'm pretty sure there's a "just drive around" mode.
Space Taxi?
You'll have to dig up a C-64 or an emulator though.
Stop the world; I need to get off.
and this is just filler text so i can post balbhalbhalbhalbha
isnt 9 pounds like $5 american? I thought computer geeks were supposed to be rich?! :)
Yup, in Sweden you can buy a magnetic sticker for you car (basically a "Learner" sticker) and then you can take your kid out into normal traffic and educate him yourself before he starts regular driving school.
Caveat #1: the youngster must be in the company of one of his parents who have full responsibility (as if the parent was in fact driving the vehicle).
Caveat #2: last I heard (which was a number of years ago) the youngster must be at least 17½ -- take into account here that outside of the US you have to be 18 to get a driver's license (which I think is rather a sane attitude).
"Good news, everyone!"
...you how to race cars, not drive them. The racing line is probably not the most useful thing to know unless you want to blast round a hairpin at 90mph.
But if you insist then i'd point at:
Anything by Geoff Crammond
Sega F40
Gran Turismo
But they aren't helpful to learn much about driving, and especially real world driving.
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The Americans have killed ten thousand of our brothers in Iraq, and thousands in Afghanistan, and by God we will make them pay with ten million of theirs! Soon all their cities will look like the World Trade centers!
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