WA Bans Gift-Card Expirations, Fees

theodp writes "The Seattle Times reports on new legislation that makes WA one of 15-20 states that have passed or are in the process of adopting laws that ban expiration dates on gift certificates, which enjoyed sales of $40+ billion last year. The consumer protection law is also expected to address the cat-and-mouse games retailers play of shopping for states with unclaimed-property laws that allow them to pocket unused gift-card value. As it so happens, Delaware state law requires a company to send unclaimed gift certificate monies to the state, while Idaho allows a company to keep the cash for itself. While an Amazon.com spokeswoman said the company would adhere to the new WA law for WA residents, she declined to say why the Seattle-headquartered and Delaware-incorporated Amazon established an Idaho company two years ago called A2Z to handle its gift-card operations."

Comments

Unclaimed gift certficates

[Senator Bozo]

Delaware state law requires a company to send unclaimed gift certificate monies to the state

If expiration dates on gift certificates are banned, how do they determine when a gift certificate is 'unclaimed'?

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[irokitt]

Well, some of the gift certificates I've recieved have said "This card expires on xx/xx/xx unless the recipient is in (X state) in which case there is no expiratiuon date".

As for gift cards, I know some of the ones I've gotten have an "expiration date" where, after a certain time period, the card begins to depreciate in value. Always thought that one was wierd.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[deicide]

How does the company know where the recipient is? :)

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[irokitt]

If it's redeemed at a store, all you need to find state of residence is a flash of that person's drivers licence. The gift certificates I'm thinking of were usable online only, so the mailing address was assumed to be in your state of residence.

A friend of mine has gotten around the taxes his state puts on certain internet sales by sending his purchases to a relative in Arizona, which he visits every few weeks or so anyway. Sort of an interesting way to beat that system...

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[Anonymous Coward]

They can wait till the person who bought it turns 125 just like anything else.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[deicide]

A friend of mine has gotten around the taxes his state puts on certain internet sales by sending his purchases to a relative in Arizona

Google for "Tyco CEO Kozlowski art work sales tax" :)

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[johnlcallaway]

Why not use the existing check laws as a guide? IANAL, but I believe in most states, a check left uncashed after 6 months can be deemed abandoned property.

I have worked for both banks and wrote payroll software. Banks treat checks being redeemed that are more than 6 months old as 'dead checks' and have policies about not honoring them. Our company in Maine regularly had state auditors review the books to make sure we were turning in all monies for payroll and accounts payable checks older than 6 months that were still outstanding. It then becomes the state's job to find these people or businesses. Only after a period of time (I don't know what period that is) does it become state funds.

This applies to personal checks also. In theory, if you send your ex-wife a check and she doesn't cash it after 6 months, you are supposed to notify the state and give them the money. Not that that has ever happened to me that I am aware of or have any remaining records.

Ever see those lists of names in papers asking people to contact your friendly state government?? Now you know where some of them come from. I don't know if it is such a huge windfall, the state spends a lot of money auditing books and advertising to find these people, and I'm sure a lot of entrepeners spend a lot of time trying to convince people that they can 'find lost money' for a cut. It would be very interesting to see what amounts states actually end up with.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[bwy]

A valid point- I believe most accounting procedures actually require the gift certificate to be written off the books at some point.

At my last job I worked on a prepaid calling card management system. The system in all cases required an expiration date because otherwise the company would have an infinite outstanding liability to provide the service that someone has just paid for.

The same has to be true for retailers. Think what would happen if 500 years from now every previously outstanding gift card for the previous 5 centuries was cashed in for a given retailer. They'd have to give out billions in goods and services for basically nothing because the gift card revenue was realized as income in the year it was sold.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[HermanAB]

Nope, inflation will reduce the value to nothing.

Think how much a Spanish Dollar (S) is worth today - nothing - it doesn't even exist anymore, except for its dollar sign ($) legacy - a stroke was put through the Yankee version - and that is less than 200 years ago in the USA...

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[Richard_at_work]

This applies to personal checks also. In theory, if you send your ex-wife a check and she doesn't cash it after 6 months, you are supposed to notify the state and give them the money. Not that that has ever happened to me that I am aware of or have any remaining records.

Do checks (cheques) work differently in the US to pretty much everywhere else then? In the UK, and most other countries ive had the (mis)fortune to cash cheques from, the money is YOURS and NOONE ELSES until such time that they present a cheque you have written out to them to the bank. Up until that time, its yours, yours, yours, in your bank account, and the cheque only symbolises an agreement that you will give this third party a certain amount of money if they present this bit of paper to a bank.

What possible reason can a governmental body come up with to legitimise taking money off you that was never intended for them? I mean, you had an agreement with whoever you wrote the cheque out to, noone else! The moneys still yours until the other bank requests it, do the state governments just think "well, you arent entitled to it either, give it to us"?!

In the UK, all finances and transactions, excepting taxes, are deemed personal to you, and if someone doesnt cash a cheque you give them, then tough on them. They get a year to cash it in, and then they are referred back to you. Entirely a matter between you and them, the government does not get involved.

Im really confused as to how the US state governments get away with this. This is like way too much interference in something they shouldnt be touching.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[DavidTC]

You can have whatever policies you want, but checks don't ever expire, per se, at least in my state, which follows the Uniform Commercial Code for Negotiable Instruments. Even if they have expiration dates printed on them. Checks are legally drafts on someone else's bank account, they are not contracts or even promisary notes, they do not 'expire', although they can become invalid, via account closing or stop payment orders.

In theory, a draft can be set at a certain date in the future, and possibly the 'date' on the check could reflect this, but I've never heard of caselaw saying banks had to treat the date on a check as the date the transfer is to happen. But regardless, all you can set with a note is the earliest date, not the latest one.

Of course, no bank is required to accept any check at all. So if you're talking about how they wouldn't honor checks customers would bring it drawn on other banks, that's all well and good, although that would just piss their customers off.

However, if you're talking about checks you have issued, you can't even count on them not being cashed somewhere. And if someone walks in with one, legally, you must honor that check.

None of that, of course, has anything to do with money owed other people, or what you legally have to do with it. I'm just pointing out that those checks can still be cashed unless you stop payment on them.

And, of course, if your bank owes someone ten dollars, and they don't cash it, and you send it to the state, and they claim it, and then cash the original check, obviously they now owe you ten dollars.

Now, there's a new thing where you can duplicate a check, and it's legally the same as the original check. It's designed for exactly what we're talking about. You issue them the check, they don't cash it for whatever reason, so you issue a duplicate check and send it to the state, who then cashes it as abandoned property, and thus their original check is no longer valid, being already cashed. All that really saves is a 'stop payment' order in that case, though.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[Anonymous Coward]

He's talking about back checks, company checks (corporations, incorporations, and small businesses), and government checks. Personal checks are a difference entity. And your right, but to protect companies (and consumers) the money sent via check still belongs to the payee, but the payor becomes the state (This protects the consumer from the payors bankrupting...)

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[Huogo]

In CT, at least in the bank I work at, checks become dead after 6 months. Our policy is to not cash them, and tell the person cashing the check to get the issuer to write a new check.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[DavidTC]

You can tell people whatever you want, but if someone presents a bank with a valid draft (Which is what a check is.) on one of the banks's account, there are only a few legally valid reasons to dishonor the check, and 'six months' isn't one of them.

While the easist thing is for them to get another check, it's entirely possible they could instead fine the check issuer under the same grounds as having written a bad check. And it's entirely possible that the check writer could sue the bank for failing to honor a properly executed draft on his account to recover the costs. Hell, he could probably sue anyway.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[TyrranzzX]

Surely they should be banned outright, considering they're letting corporations pretty much creat their own money. What's better, "hey son, here's $40" or "Hey son, here's a $40 gift certificate to a gay mens bar!". I'd rather get $40 than a $40 gift certificate since the $40 itself is useful anywhere. Frankly, our own government should be the only authority in this part of the world to coin their own money.
An extention of this is if corporations only gave you change in coperate gift certificates, or gave you corporate credit which has exchange rates into other corporations credit types, much like countries. IT's kinda appauling that corporations have a constitutional right people do not.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[Avihson]

They would have to give out billions of goods and services for billions of revenue that they received for nothing! Where is the issue?

You pay me in advance for a product, I owe you that product. Just because you wait some time to come and claim it, does not mean I magically owe you nothing.

My Folks were almost ripped off by a national chain that way, they were a week away from the expiration date.
I don't mind if you want to sell me a gift card with an expiration date plainly stated on the card, AND if I am able to redeem the card for full face value in cash if I do not want or need any of your merchandise.
Anything less is theft.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[ArsSineArtificio]

Think how much a Spanish Dollar (S) is worth today - nothing - it doesn't even exist anymore

If you were to find a Spanish dollar coin in good condition, you would be very pleased to find out how much it was worth. Inflation doesn't affect coins of pure metal content, which is why governments have historically pursued paper money (or debased metal content) if they want to launch an inflationary policy.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[johnlcallaway]

It is illegal in this country to issue a check without the funds to back it up. As long as the check is outstanding, there is a legal responsibility to maintain the balance of an account to support all outstanding items. You can collect interest on it, but you cannot spend it. A check is not a contract in this country, it is negotiable instrument, payable to the bearer. That is why you cannot write 'paid in full' on the memo line and have it honored.

Consider what you are suggesting a little different. You write me a check for $1000, but I lose it. You refuse to cancel the check and issue another because it would cost $12. I'm out $1000, but you keep the money. In this country, after 6 months, you have to turn that money over to the state government, who I can then go to get it. In fact, they have a legal responsibility to track me down. Every month, the local newspapers carry a couple of pages asking people whose names are on those pages to call the goverment to get their money. This law protects both parties by helping settle disputes over the status of a check. There are groups of people that comb those lists and offer help to people to claim that money for a fee, which is legal if not unethical since they can call the government and get it without a fee.

The basis behind the law is the concept of abandoned property. If you see a car alongside the road, and it sits there for a few months, you can't just drive it off. The government will come along, find the serial number or registration, and track the owner down. (That happened to a friend of mine who abandoned his car, and he ended up owing 4 months storage fees plus towing plus a fine.) The same goes if you find a wallet full of money, you cannot legally keep it.

If I fail to cash that check, it becomes abandoned and the government becomes the responsible party in order to settle any dispute of ownership. If I give the check back to you, or sign it over to someone else, the ownership passes on. In fact, when I deposit the check, the check becomes the property of the bank and they give me cash to take it. The only time I actually get your cash is if I go to your bank.

Now, there is one catch. Check issuers can put a stop payment notice on a check at which time the check becomes null. Anyone who is smart will put a stop payment on any check over a couple of months old. Then it is up to the bearer of the check to resolve any issues, and there are another whole set of laws governing that.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[HeghmoH]

He said it was for an ex-wife, so I assume he is referring to some kind of obligatory alimony/child-support payments.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[slittle]

The USAians seem to rely on 'checks' a lot more than the rest of us, so it only follows they'd be protected more. Of course.. at that point it becomes less of a bank's order-to-pay and more like dynamic cash.

Most service/retail outlets in Oz wouldn't be caught dead accepting personal cheques. Membership fees and other paid-in-advance accounts, maybe. But against cash, EFTPOS, BPay, and credit cards, cheques have few or no advantages, and may take days to clear.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[Trigulus]

And what freaking country is "this country"? Are we all supposed to just know where you live?

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[rmohr02]

Checks are not accepted at many retail stores in the US, and at the ones they are accepted at, they generally require a driver's license number on the check as additional confirmation of who you are.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[Jason Earl]

Somehow I am guessing that a 200 year old gift card with a face value of one dollar would be worth slightly less than even a brass coin.

Inflation definitely effects gift cards. Assuming, of course, that the issuer of the gift card was even still in business (which they probably aren't).

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[TykeClone]

Probably the same way that they determine that a checking or savings account is "dormant."

I think that (in Iowa, at least) an checking or savings account is dormant if it has not had any transactions (other than accruing interest) in two years and the owner of that account is not to be found.

An interesting thing is that some southern and eastern states are starting to do the same rules for CD's (certificates of deposit). Those are accounts that all that can happen is for them to sit and accrue interest over long periods of time.

The dormant account laws should exist to protect consumers from giving banks free use of their money in perpetuity - but those states that can call CD's dormant are misusing the system and are just trying to make some extra money.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[MindStalker]

Also consider a pay check, they have to make an attempt to pay you, if they mail your check to the wrong address it isn't your fault. So they turn it to the state and the state looks for the person. That reminds me, I'm still pissed about the electric company check I can't claim (previous resident moved out early in the year, I moved in, local company is a co-op so they send profits back to customers and they mailed old residents check at end of year, I was like hey these people where only here a few months, but no, they check was for them, and they still havn't claimed it.)

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[yotto]

Considering his parent was asking about the US, I was under the impression that he was in the US.

P1: "I heard you took a trip around the world. What was Tokyo like?"
P2: "Fantastic! I loved the food there, and the night life was great!"

Quick, what city was Person #2 talking about?

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[CptSparrow]

IT's kinda appauling that corporations have a constitutional right people do not.

Actually, you are free to coin your own money. It's illegal to pass it off as a federal note, but if you create it, and someone else accepts it, that's perfectly acceptable. The most popular example

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't write a lot of cheques, but I just can't see how the government could enforce something like this for one reason:

There is no record of the cheque if you lost it.

When I write cheques, I don't have a carbon copy of what I wrote. There's just a number in the top corner so I can keep track of things.

How would the government even know about this cheque unless someone turned it in to them? Are they relying on you or the other party to report it to them? And if they are relying on the other party, how can they trust them? There's no proof.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[TyrranzzX]

Wooo, so I AM on crack. Hrmph, now there's something worth reading into. (adds to bookmarks)

Danke

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[Anonymous Coward]

here is the google link.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[Mycroft_VIII]

The slow degredation is for a reason. First off it partialy gets around these state laws in some cases.
But the main reason is people lose these cards. Do you want to foot the bill on keeping a gift card on file and useable at any of a chains stores when the card has $.98 on it and hasn't been used in 4 years. odds are the card is long since lost or eaten by the dog, or accidently droped into an airplanes toilet or just plain tossed out.
These state laws need to account for this problem. Elsewise they can put a rather expensive burden on the companies issueing them.
Just to use one example. the pizza hut gift card will start decaying if there are no transactions for 12 consecutive months, the decay is somthing like $1 every 6 moths or so. A transaction is ANY action that references the card. including visiting the local hut and asking it how much is on the card. This is strictly to keep the database from filling up with 'dead' cards that have been lost, thrown away, etc. Now that I think about it the transaction can even be going online and checking a cards balance. And of course using or adding money to a card counts as well.
The degradation is called a maintenance fee as well to help deal with the state laws in various states that prohibit 'expiration'.

Mycroft

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[Mycroft_VIII]

I was under the impression that post-dateing a check (dated so as to prevent cashing before a certain date) was illeagle. A check issued had to be dated for date of issuance to payee. At least in my state that's what I've been told.
I've also recently had no problem cashing a check where the check was accidently dated for the wrong (future) month, so it's possible that a check is simply counted as valid from the moment it's filled out and signed.

Mycroft

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[Mycroft_VIII]

Actually it's not a good idea to pass anything off as any sort of money. I've heard stories of people trying to do 'private money' before, never ends good.
There is a current trend/fad in some area for small to smaller bussiness and persons to engage in barter systems and universally they do everything they can to avoid anything that looks like money.
While Sec.8 Clauses 5&6 don't directly prohibit private money, congress and the courts tend to get pretty anal over anything remotely resembling money.
Look at what happened to those guys who tried to create a private alternative to the federal reserve system.
The guy who's site you linked to reminds me of those websites that claim you don't have to actually pay federal income tax and have some serious tin-foil hat reasons why not. Admitedly this last item is more of a gut feeling than anything so take with a grain of salt.
And in any case IANAL and you really should consult a good one for advice before trying to do anything remotely different than the accepted fiscal intruments.
You should probably get an expert for any instruments ouside of cash, credit card, or check. Especialy if you don't deal with such things on a regular basis.

Mycroft

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[bwy]

You pay me in advance for a product, I owe you that product. Just because you wait some time to come and claim it, does not mean I magically owe you nothing.

You're missing the point. Accounting procedures result in income being recorded when the gift certificate is sold. The liability of providing the service or product isn't realized until the item is sold. From an accounting standpoint, this can result in the books completely "going to shit" after a while if the outstanding, unclaimed liabilities aren't removed. Now surely there is a compromise with consumers. Lengthen this amount of time to something quite reasonable... 5 years perhaps.

I partially agree with you, the cards should have a clearly stated expiry date. Although, redemption for cash is perhaps another story. You're making the agreement with the retailer when you buy the card on the conditions of redemption. I tend to agree with other posters here though. Who needs gift cards anyway? What the heck is wrong with a personal check or cash inside an envelope that is good ANYWHERE? Is that not the ultimate gift card? Not sure why people consider it tacky to give out cash. I'd gladly have cash any day of the week.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[DavidTC]

Post-dating a check and then neglecting to inform the person you're writing it to is probably illegal, assumming that actually did anything. I don't know why it would be illegal with the consent of both parties, but pretending it meant anything, I can see why it would be illegal to pay for gas with a check that was dated 6/28/3004 without them knowing..

But like I said, I was always under the impression that postdating checks did nothing, so it probably wouldn't be illegal, just like it's not illegal to draw smiley faces on your checks. The date field doesn't mean anything, you can write gibberish there. (In fact, it doesn't pretend to mean anything. It doesn't say 'current date' or 'date to execute draft', it just says 'date'. Presumably you could write 'yes' there, you wished a date.)

However, if you're talking about the common practice of postdating a check with the consent on the person you're writing it to because of your current lack of funds, that is illegal. Not because of the postdating, but because the postdating means nothing, and it's illegal to write a draft on your account without the funds there, even if the funds are there when it's finally executed.

But that is more of a problem with the law and the format of checks than anything else. There is no way to make a check only valid at a certain point, so we do it orally...and in the meanwhile violate certain banking regulations.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[Anonymous Coward]

When I write cheques, I don't have a carbon copy of what I wrote. There's just a number in the top corner so I can keep track of things.

Most people I know do have a carbon copy of the checks they write. They've had such check pads for years and years now.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[skarmor]

Well, first they check to see if it has been claimed. If it hasn't - it's unclaimed...

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[plague3106]

Elsewise they can put a rather expensive burden on the companies issueing them.

So they don't have to issue them at all.

Expiration dates / maint. fees are just a way they can get money for doing absolutely nothing. They got their money upfront, and if they can keep it without providing a product or service, thats a 100% profit for that card..

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[radish]

Only in the US. I think that's the point he's making.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[Anonymous Coward]

You write me a check for $1000, but I lose it. You refuse to cancel the check and issue another because it would cost $12. I'm out $1000, but you keep the money. In this country, after 6 months, you have to turn that money over to the state government, who I can then go to get it.

In reality, I write you a check for $1000, you lose it, and the story ends there. Neither the government, nor the bank know you ever wrote the check, and the money never leaves your hands unless you issue a new check, or sombody finds and cashes the old check. Most of the money listed in the newspaper that you're talking about is the balance of accounts where the bank no longer has valid contact information for the account holder.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[Colazar]

You're missing the point. Accounting procedures result in income being recorded when the gift certificate is sold. The liability of providing the service or product isn't realized until the item is sold. From an accounting standpoint, this can result in the books completely "going to shit" after a while if the outstanding, unclaimed liabilities aren't removed. Now surely there is a compromise with consumers. Lengthen this amount of time to something quite reasonable... 5 years perhaps.

Actually, proper accounting procedures are that you don't recognize the revenue from the gift certificate until it is *redeemed*. Until then it is Unearned Revenue, which is a liability. That's just a quibble though, cause I think that's what you meant.

If this goes through, I think the company would be able to make a good faith estimate as to Permanently Unredeemed Gift Certificates and recognize a percentage of old (say, 3yr+) Gift Certificates as income every year. While still retaining the records in case they ever *are* redeemed. (Kind of the opposite to how you do Bad Debts.)

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[garethx1]

Actually in a profit sense, if a gift card costs, say, 10 cents to make, an unclaimed $10 gift card is like a 10000% profit. My maths a bit shakey but i think thats right. (or is it 100000%?) _Garethx1

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[johnlcallaway]

This check was before court ordered child support when I was sending my then soon-to-be-ex money to live on. I was trying to make a joke. Obviously I did not do a good job.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[johnlcallaway]

I agree one hundred percent with your comment. I don't think the intent of this US law is to make me pony up money to the government just because somebody forgets about a check.

However, that somebody still has the check, so if they came forward 5 years after the fact, they could make a case that I still owe them the money and take steps to recover it. It would be interesting to see how the courts would process it.

Everything in most companies is documented so there is that proof. Payroll runs and bank statements are in file cabinets. Most companies also keep records of outstanding checks so they can balance their accounts.

One company I worked for had an employee who would not cash his payroll checks until he needed the money. It was not unusual for this guy to have checks outstanding for months, for some bizarre reason. The company would continually be pestering him to cash his checks, and the only time they were guaranteed he would was just before the 6 months were up and they would tell him they were going to give the money to the government.

I guess he trusted the State of Ohio less than banks.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[johnlcallaway]

Ahhhh....the days of bank tutorials. What constitues a check.

In theory, a US check has to have these things:

• The person or entity to whom the check is issued
• The amount of the check
• The date the check is issued
• The account number
• The bank the check is drawn on
• The signature of the person issuing the check

I think that's right, it has been 20 years since I went through orientation, and 15 years since I worked at a bank.

Checks don't have to be on fancy safety paper, have the amount in both words and numbers, the routing number, or the name/address/phone number of the issuer.

If I wrote you a 'check' that had the above items on a piece of toilet paper, you could take it to your bank and attempt to deposit it. They would probably refuse, citing some type of bank regulation. But the real reason is either that they don't want to get stuck with a bad check or they don't want to have to deal with getting it through the Federal Reserve system. When you deposit a check in your bank, you are not presenting it for cash, you are signing it over to them. It becomes their check at that point. They are under no legal obligation to accept any check, but they will because checks are a more secure way of moving cash around than cash and it is to their benefit becase they want other banks to accept their checks.

Now that your bank has refused to cash that check, you come to my bank. They don't have to give you the money right away, they can take steps to verify the check is valid. The most obvious way is to compare the signiture on the check to the one they have on file.

Now I'm scared. I know way more about this stuff than any sane person should.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[johnlcallaway]

The US has a very complicated legal and distribution system regarding checks and how they work. You can write a check nn California and have it clear a bank in New York within 3-4 days and 3000 miles later. Our postal system doesn't work that well half the time.

This ease of use has been one of barriers to electronic cash acceptance. Checks are tactile and almost everyone takes them with a driver's license (well, at least if you don't make a habit of writing bad checks, we also have widespread databases with bad checks in them that all the stores access at checkout time.) It has taken years for people to warm up to using debit cards. This year the Federal Reserve figures show that personal check usage is down significantly. Again, in an interesting twist, ATM usage is also starting to go down as debit and credit card begin to become more accepted. ATM machines may become a thing of the past, along with cash, as younger people start to adapt to a cashless society.

Cash isn't always great either. I worked at a retail store one Christmas selling stereos. A man came in dressed like anyone else, and bought an Onkyo stereo for around $1000 dollars and paid with cash, mostly $100 bills but some 20s. I verified the 100s weren't counterfeit and got to joking with him about the cash because it is very unusual for someone to pay cash for large purchases. He told me that he was a captain on one of the freighters in the harbor (their stereo bit the big one). I don't remember where he was from, but he said there was so much counterfit money there that no one would accept new bills, they had to be old and wrinkled.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[johnlcallaway]

There is a difference between a law and law enforcement. It is possible to make some action illegal, yet not provide for any punishment or remediation. The law provides the ability to take action if there is some proof that a crime has been commited. Then it is up to a court to determine if the crime was actually commited and what steps are to be taken based on the punishment outlined by the law. If no one chooses to take action, or there are no means to enforce it, it just becomes some lines in a musty book.

You are absolutly correct in pointing out the flaw in my simple example. A better example might be that the check was misplaced, and then later found. Or there might have been a contract or invoice in which case it will be up to the check issuer to prove payment. Once it has been shown a check as been issued, then further action can be taken.

I doubt if either of us knows exactly why all those names are in the paper and what percentage is for what reason. I do know for a fact that at least some of those names in the state of Maine are there because people do not deposit or cahs checks that companies issue and that companies are audited on a regular basis to ensure that they are turning in checks that are not cashed.

BTW --- why do you think the banks turn that money over to the state?? Do you think they are generous and want to do the right thing?? Those funds are deemed abandoned property, just like non-cashed checks. Banks have to follow a minimum set of guidelines to track down those account owners, after which time they must turn the funds over to the state.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[DavidTC]

Sounds correct to me.

Specifically, a 'check' is a specific type of draft on a bank account. (It also, oddly enough, can be used as a promissary note, which I don't really understand the point of.)

There are other types of drafts, for example money orders are drafts too, they're just drafts on some generic account that whoever issued them holds. And you, of course, paid the isssuer cash. (At least, I think they're on one account per company. It's possibly each money order has its own, fictional account.)

But, yes, banks are supposed to honor any draft on an account in any form, assuming it appears valid, and the money is there.

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[Mycroft_VIII]

This is probably a bs story, or exagerated, or somthing.A friend of mine's father (retired police officer) was eigther the cop issuing the ticket or recivied the ticket himself. But what supposedly happend is the judge found a guy guilty and find him for some traffic violation. Well the 'defendant' dissagreed with the verdict, and knew about what leagaly constituted a check. Since the court allowed him (by ordinance!) to pay eigther cash or personal check drawn on a local bank (branch within x miles of city hall or within city) he proceded to take a new white t-shirt and 'write' a check on the back of it. Supposedly the court was stuck with eigther accepting that for payment, or delcining to accept any payment releasing the man from having to pay at all.
Now for all I know I'm repeating a 3rd hand urban legend. But I thought it amusing and almost on topic, hopefully the mods don't dissagree too, much. :)

Mycroft

Re:Unclaimed gift certficates

[Mycroft_VIII]

yes, as a pratical matter dates are pretty much meaningless. The people who convert that written check into an actuall transaction in the computer system are often paid by how many checks they 'code' per day, or at least have quotas. This is why you should always double check your statements and make shure the right amount is debited. Those peons are typeing in thier best guesse of your handwriting as fast as they can. pretty much if it has a signature and routing numbers and amount in both fields it'll be entered, or at they'll try.

Mycroft

Escheat - not keep

[grolaw]

If a company has a "gift certificate" they have a contract with the buyer to provide the benefit to the buyer's designee. If nobody claims the money under the controlling state law (we might want to designate a state for the purposes of the contract) then the money is abandoned property and escheats to the state. Anything else is a windfall for the company - and remember, absent the structure of laws the company could not exist. Pay the piper and lower the tax burden.

Besides, the company will have a major incentive to find the designee so that they can make their ordinary profit - rather than lose everything. Consumers benefit all around!

Re:Escheat - not keep

[Mycroft_VIII]

For what it's worth, Pizza Hut's gift certificates (not the gift cards that are replaceing them) are actually checks, made out to Pizza Hut inc. This is done in part for accounting reasons, but mainly so they can be used at both corporate owned stores and franchise stores. So if you have one it should work at any pizza hut in the USA (this whole post assumes USA, sorry rest of world, I just don't know how they do it elsewhere).

Mycroft

Amazon.com

[Anonymous Coward]

Belive me if you want, but I'm a former Amazon.com retail customer service monkey, and I was employed when the the A2Z shell company was created. We we're essentially told that Idaho was the home of the new company for the express purpose of being able to keep expired GC's. This move coresponded very close in time to a change in policy to never extend the life of a GC past it's original date. Previously, all GC's were 1 year, but we would renew them over and over again so long as you called/emailed and asked. When I left, it was changed to 2 years, but under no circumstances could the date be moved back.

When we all asked about just how shady this move (and dozens of other matters you don't want to know about) was, it was always sold to us as "It will help us profit, which will make your stock go up."

However, we were not to mention these reasons to customers, but rather to fill them with some BS about having the freedom to serve them better or something like that. This resulted in the day I got in trouble for "telling the truth to a customer." Seems they didn't appreciate me explaining to a customer why Idaho is a great place to start a shell GC company.

I think everyone should work for Amazon.com for at least a couple months. You will forever appreciate whatever other job you're at, plus you will have hundreds of hilarious stories to tell.

Re:Amazon.com

[spazoid12]

I work at Amazon today as an SDE.

Please pray for me. I'm desperate for a decent job.

What a screwy place.

Re:Amazon.com

[Anonymous Coward]

On a similar vain, every computer science student should work the computer help desk. Learning that even a well-designed program can fail in odd ways, or that very few users read manuals, or just how bady a confusing UI is-those are priceless tidbits.

Re:Amazon.com

[bconway]

That's not shady. They're not even working around a law, they're doing something that's expressly legal.

Personally, I don't see the point for these laws. I live in a state that either has a no-expiration law or extends the expiration to something ridiculous like 7 years (I can't remember which), but I can't remember the last time I kept a gift card for more than a month or two. Are people really burying these things? A year is still a lot more generous than the 60- or 90-day expiration on a personal check (not a comparable analogy, I know).

Re:Amazon.com

[Anonymous Coward]

right. they're not working around the laws of the other 49 states to benefit themselves, they just happened to pick an "idaho" tag out of a hat.

let me guess... you're a republican?

Re:Amazon.com

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, besides the funny stories, there IS one nice thing about working for Amazon. It's the fact that unless you either steal from the company, or seriously abuse a customer, you absolutely, positively, will NOT get fired. Period. They'll restrict when you can take time off and/or make you do all sorts of training, but the one thing they won't do is fire you. Believe me, I tried, and they wouldn't do it.

And I too was desperate for a job...although I wouldn't have referred to mine as "decent".

When entering the company's slogan contest, a co-worker proudly submitted "Amazon.com....Grand Forks jobs with benefits." (Grand Forks, ND being the location).

Re:Amazon.com

[spazoid12]

That is funny that you mention forks.

I've been finding creative ways to deal with frustration (80%) and boredom (20%).

One way is to collect forks from the cafeteria. I know that I should be taking only plastic ones back to my desk, but I like to take the metal ones, and then store them in my drawer. One day, when I quit, my lasting legacy will be a drawer full of forks.

During the Pepsi iTunes promotion, I'd buy them from the pop machine on 3rd. I know that I could have gone down to the snack shop on 1 to buy them where you can select them from a cooler and therefore only grab ones you can see are winners... but buying from the machine helped make my job feel a tiny bit like a trip to the casino.

Dealing with middle management and PMs at Amazon is already like a huge losing gamble... it seemed to fit well.

Re:Amazon.com

[Anonymous Coward]

Does his party affiliation really matter? To him anything technically legal is, by definition, ethical.

Re:Amazon.com

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, and the only person dumb enough to believe that in modern America would be a Republican. They seem to enjoy getting raped by big government, so they elect more Republicans to do it over and over again!

Re:Amazon.com

[spazoid12]

let me guess... you're a republican?

Let me guess, you spike trees in the hope that a logger will be badly injured??

What the heck? What bunghole did you pull your comment from??

Re:Amazon.com

[betelgeuse68]

Then start sending resumes out.

Re:Amazon.com

[Anonymous Coward]

Belive sic me if you want, but I'm a former Amazon.com retail customer service monkey, and I was employed when the the A2Z shell company was created. We we're essentially told that Idaho was the home of the new company for the express purpose of being able to keep expired GC's. This move coresponded very close in time to a change in policy to never extend the life of a GC past it's original date. Previously, all GC's were 1 year, but we would renew them over and over again so long as you called/emailed and asked. When I left, it was changed to 2 years, but under no circumstances could the date be moved back. I'll second this. I worked in Amazon's IT infrastructure group at the time and the team I was on had responsibility for setting up the network connections, servers, et al for the offices of the Idaho shell corporation. In a meeting talking about why we were setting up the shell corporation in Idaho the existence of the state laws that allowed Amazon to recoup unused gift certificates if they weren't claimed was given as the reason. The person who told us this was the director of IT.

Re:Amazon.com

[Otter]

I can't remember the last time I kept a gift card for more than a month or two. Are people really burying these things?

I just used some two year old cards at Best Buy. (Kept waiting for them to offer iPods at my local store and finally gave up.) I'd be surprised if I'm the only one who keeps them around for a while.

That said, the cards said they had no expiration date -- if they had, I would have used them earlier. I recognize the logic of not allowing consumers to sign away certain rights but it's not obvious to me that this needs to be one of them.

Re:Amazon.com

[betelgeuse68]

I lived in Seattle for six years. Tried to get into Amazon more out of desperation than anything else when the dot com implosion occurred. Still I knew back then they were LINUX and *NIX is primarily the platform I like to do my work.

But based on things I've heard, it's probably best I did not get hired.

Living in Boston,
Betelgeuse

Re:Amazon.com

[ChrisMaple]

It is shady. The company has cash earning interest, the customer has a certificate losing value in exact proportion to the currency it's denominated in. I've received gift certificates for goods from companies that offered nothing I wanted, and had to wait years until they got something I liked.

A gift certificate is like an anonymous savings account that bears no interest and can only be used at one company.

Re:Amazon.com

[CoughDropAddict]

Could you elaborate? I'm applying there now.

Re:Amazon.com

[Anonymous Coward]

Item to study: Republicans and size of government.

Republicans want *less* government. So if they're getting raped by "big government", then they can thank the Democrats. Typically, it's Democrats that want *more* programs, *more* government regulation, and *more* government intrusion in daily life.

Perhaps a refresher in Political Science 101 is in order.

Re:Amazon.com

[DAldredge]

Then explain why goverment has grown so much in size and power with the GOP in charge.

Re:Amazon.com

[eskayp]

As a resident of Idaho, I can see why Amazon would play their 'shell game' here. Idaho government is controlled by business and has a history of anti-consumer, anti-worker, and anti-education legislation. Neoconservatism and a overwhelmingly Republican legislature ensure that corporations will have a free hand to do business however they see fit. Many Idahoans like to posture as independent minded conservatives, but Idaho's laws and economy are of, by, and for business. A2Z was probably welcomed here with open arms 'Lookit the jobs!' without any concern about what the purpose or end results of their activities would be. And this in a state heavily influenced by religion. But then again that's just another business these days.

Re:Amazon.com

[Anonymous Coward]

Aside from who fucks who, who can get married to whom, a cop with a no-knock warrent for every house, a fingerprint and iris scan for every passport, tabacco subsidies, a monolithic tax code filled with loopholes for the incorporated, the right for every community to have the government at large pay for textbooks that credit God and magic with formation of earth some six thousand years ago, a religious icon in every courthouse (as long as it's the right religion), the introduction of state mandated loyalty oaths to God (1954) and country for kids too young to understand them, and praise to our Lord on the money (started in 1867 IIRC), the opposition to the right of every adult to die in a manner of their choosing in so far as others aren't harmed, the opposition to the choice of others to medicate themselves in so far as their activities don't impinge on the freedoms of others (even in instances when those substances are the only thing allowing them to live a productive life), oh and the government has the innate resonsability to make sure no child anywhere comesis exposed to anything not previously expressly approved of in writting by their parents (unless a member of the clergy is molesting or beating them, or their parents want to trust in magic and let their child die a miserable death for religious reasons). I mean aside from those party platforms you're 1000% right.

Want to know why your property taxes will be going up? Security. The Bush administration is spending billions on security, but that all going as gifts to friends of the family. Where security meets the people. That's at the community level, where they're getting new mandates, but no money to meet them. So they'll be either raising your taxes ($400 this year for me) or cutting services (that'll be next year I'm sure), wow that tax rebate was awesome!

By pushing it from an income tax at the national level to an excise tax at the state level, the Bush administration gets to point the finger at inefficent local governments (which are typically VERY efficient, making extensive use of volunteers) and since services which are disproportunately consumed by the wealthy are disproportunately undertaxed, they'll see the same or higher level of government service, pay much less for it, and those people who are poor and already consume relatively little of government services will pay more and see less service.

When the republicans talk about big government they're talking about people who aren't republicans consuming government services at an increasing rate but still so far below the rate the rich consume them as to be nearly irrelevant.

But hey, I don't want this to be a rant against republicans. So, I'll offer this final piece of truth. We all get the government we collectively deserve.

Re:Amazon.com

[Anonymous Coward]

if you don't understand the connection, then you need to read up on american politics.

Re:Amazon.com

[ArsSineArtificio]

It is shady. The company has cash earning interest, the customer has a certificate losing value in exact proportion to the currency it's denominated in. I've received gift certificates for goods from companies that offered nothing I wanted, and had to wait years until they got something I liked.

This isn't shady, or dishonest, or unethical. It's merely stupid - on the part of the buyer. The buyer either knows full well that he's lending his money to the company at no interest (by buying goods in advance), or he's an idiot.

Re:Amazon.com

[spazoid12]

dude, you've been into your gay porn too much.

Re:Amazon.com

[Zebbers]

we do want to know the other dozen matters...
please share, it's only right...

Re:Amazon.com

[Red Warrior]

I've actually used a gift card that I noticed a year after I'd gotten it. When I get a gift card, it either goes in my junk drawer (where my checkbook is) or in my wallet. Then I forget about it until I want something specific. I treat it (improperly, it would seem, given this story) like cash.

Gift cards to someplace like, say Pier 1 can easily age a year or more. I only used it because I noticed it had an experation date.

Feh. Use cash. it doesn't expire. And it doesn't require people to buy stuff that they may not need just to avoid loosing it.

Re:Amazon.com

[Anonymous Coward]

And you think selling something no sane person would choose to buy is ethical?

Re:Amazon.com

[cluckshot]

I would like to ammend your pretty efficient description of the facts with a few minor additions.

With the Department of Homeland Security spending hundreds of billions of US Taxpayer dollars into Foreign owned companies because they are Cheaper. (Even though Americans at two times the price due to taxes are cheaper than their foreign competition) We see the Republicrats (Not a spelling error) building the worlds most efficient mechanism for recording all of the terrorists activities up to your death and then providing a most efficient means for removing your dead body while blaming the taxpayers for not paying enough taxes.

Who after all is the worst terrorist? The one who destroyed 3000 people and about a $100 Billion from the US Economy or the guys who demanded $2,000 Billion from us for Homeland Security and will continue to demand another $500 to $1000 Billion every year from now on while celebrating each additional attack with more money demanded from the taxpayers while refusing to guard our borders and refusing to remove Illegal or Undesirable Aliens (The problem 9/11/2001) in a timely efficient manner.

Remember that if no attack comes in the next 10 years they will have spent a lot of money and will be put back to modest budgets as worthless unless they can find some way to preserve the terrorists as a threat. In the mean time too many careers somewhere on earth will hinge on the threat continuing.

Remember that it took Al Qaeda (Unopposed) from 1993 to 2001 to mount an attack on the US Mainland. Does anyone believe that we are stopping them now? If you do please tell me the Phone number that you can dial for immediate and proper dealing with Illegal and Undesirable Aliens.

For my Foreign friends, the US Citizens to this day do not even have a phone number they can call to have an alien who is causing problems dealt with promptly and the local police with some minor exceptions are forbidden by law to bring any proceeding against them. The US Border Patrol is currently being told to sit in their trucks and not even arrest border crossers who are illegal even when they see the event. The American Border Patrol (A private organization) set up drones and reported such crossings on the Internets While USA Purchaced Drones sat in their crates until the embarassment built up so much that they had to start such work this past week. You can rest assured that this will only operate so that the USA forces can ignore the American Border Patrol and continue not to do their job.

So long prompt response continues not to exist, you can take it as prima facia proof that there is no real threat in the eyes of US Leadership. You can take it all as a fraud. This measure is the first line of defense and the most modest of requests by decent citizens.

Back to the laws on gift cards and money I am thankful that Washington is starting to work on this. I just wonder how long that it will be before some federal law stops the effort to produce decent laws. (NAFTA or GATT and the WTO may be party too!)

Re:Amazon.com

[lcsjk]

I hate to be off topic, but I believe that is the longest "sentence fragment" I have ever read. Did I miss the verb and end of the sentence?
You are mostly right, but some of your rantings are common to both Republicans and Democrats who have a strong religious belief.
The part about finances and programs that benefit the rich and not the poor are right, I believe. After all, most of our lifelong politicians are relatively wealthy, at least after they have served a few years. That may be why neither party is very good at passing programs that REALLY benefit the lower middle class of people.

Gift certificates are a godsend for retailers

[Killswitch1968]

I'll elaborate:

1. First of all at the initial purchasing of this piece of plastic/paper, the retailer gets straight up cash with no physical loss of goods until possibly months later. In that time the money could be used for all sorts of useful things.
2. People who receive gift certificates feel obligated to use them to their full amount, otherwise they will lose the value of the card. The only problem is few things are exactly worth $20, so the consumer is forced to either pay up their own money for something, or buy something for less than the value of the card.
3. Gift certificates can't be banked or deposited, they can only be storted in some physical location, making them far easier to lose than money.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind buying or receiving gift certificates. They have saved me tons of time buying gifts. But I think it's clear retailers are getting quite a deal out of it.

Re:Gift certificates are a godsend for retailers

[Anonymous Coward]

In light of this, I recently bought a mouse with a FutureShop gift certificate and then instantly returned it. Boy did that feel good.

Re:Gift certificates are a godsend for retailers

[Mard]

"The only problem is few things are exactly worth $20, so the consumer is forced to either pay up their own money for something, or buy something for less than the value of the card."

Killswitch is right. Once, I had a gift certificate for Gamestop for $30, and could only find a game that cost $29.99. Paying the tax out of pocket, I was left with a leftover balance of $0.01. Suffice to say, I had to THEN spend another $30 in order to empty the card of it's value :(

Re:Gift certificates are a godsend for retailers

[Anonymous Coward]

You couldn't just forget about the leftover penny?

Re:Gift certificates are a godsend for retailers

[lgftsa]

I worked in a retail store to pay for university, and the gift certificates we had were the equivalent of real money. You had to buy *something* with them, but the you had the choice of getting the balance as more certificates or cash.

This was early 90's in Australia, so YMMV.

Re:Gift certificates are a godsend for retailers

[Anonymous Coward]

he was making a funny. He's obviously a gamer, and used the penny as an excuse to do something he was going to do anyway, buy another game.

Re:Gift certificates are a godsend for retailers

[lostguy]

One issue is your #1, the NPV. I.e., $20 in six months is worth less than $20 today. The retailer gets the $20 today, and you get the $20 in six months, when you redeem the gc.

The other is what is called "breakage" -- you either fail to redeem the gc or don't redeem it in its entirety.

In #2 is the additional margin created by the S&H, often used to make up some of the loss associated with small orders. (i.e., in this example of $20)

Re:Gift certificates are a godsend for retailers

[Random832]

why not pay one cent less than the tax out of pocket, and put that $.01 on the gift card?

Re:A2Z

[boshi]

and two letter ones

Cannot find my gift certificate.

[Anonymous Coward]

I received a $50 Best Buy gift certificate for Christmas but I cannot find it anywhere!

At least now I know that I have a lifetime to search for it.

Re:Cannot find my gift certificate.

[hank]

Unless Best Buy goes out of business.

Re:Cannot find my gift certificate.

[NineNine]

Unless Best Buy goes out of business.

We can only hope.

Re:Cannot find my gift certificate.

[Kenshin]

If you're like me, chances are your sister broke into your desk and stole it.

Then you have a lifetime to hold it against her.

Re:Cannot find my gift certificate.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ask the person who bought it for the original receipt. The necessary information can be found there.

Re:Cannot find my gift certificate.

[k4_pacific]

It's always in the last place you look. why not look there first?

There are other ways of getting the money...

[Anonymous Coward]

There are other ways of getting to the money. Simon Properties, a popular Mall management / owner company, offers gift cards. For each month of inactivity, they charge a fee ... something like $1.25 or so, around what an ATM fee might be. So if you get a $40 gift card, use $30 of it and leave it for 5 months, you've got a $0 balance.

Starbucks is or was doing something similar if I recall correctly.

They'll get you one way or another.

AC

Re:There are other ways of getting the money...

[Travoltus]

That sounds like they're operating like a bank.

I wonder if that kind of behavior is regulated as such, or not?

Re:There are other ways of getting the money...

[irokitt]

Actually, I'd bet that stores with this policy are partnered with a bank, which has an account for each customer, making it easier to keep track of things.

Re:There are other ways of getting the money...

[supmylO]

I recently received one of these Simon Gift Cards. I must say, I am very pleased. It works just like any credit card and you can look at the balance/where you spent your money online. I haven't noticed the inactivity fee, but let's hope I don't.

Re:There are other ways of getting the money...

[Naffer]

In California both service fees and experation dates are outlawed. I think the rationale is that by adding a service fee you're causing some of the money to expire. I just recently used a 4 year old gift certificate that claimed to have a service fee "where not prohibited by law."

Re:There are other ways of getting the money...

[cobe98]

One of the worst offenders are the calling-card companies. Some of them charge hidden fees every week/month whether or not you use them... Not to mention connection fees etc., Even though the minutes are cheap it works out more expensive.. let the buyer beware!

Re:There are other ways of getting the money...

[Justus]

You may find it useful to read the article linked in the summary, which specifically states:

Washington's new statute also mostly does away with service charges such as "dormancy" fees--sometimes $1 or $2 a month--that kick in if certificates go unused after a certain period.

Re:There are other ways of getting the money...

[LostCluster]

Simon's actually had their merchants biting them for that one. See, if a store accepts a gift card that the customer thinks can cover the purchase, but it turns out that it can't... they've just submitted an invalid transaction to Visa and get dinged a fee for that. Sure, Simon's making money off of these things, but they're upsetting their tenants who are the one who really butter their bread.

It remains to be seen if Simon's going to be able to keep this scheme up.

Re:There are other ways of getting the money...

[Anonymous Coward]

The charge is $2.50/month and you get the first 6 months free.

Re:There are other ways of getting the money...

[Rolgar]

I've bought at least 15 of these since Thanksgiving.

They charge a $1 or $1.50 service charge for each card they move (The first time, I got charged 1.50, the second time, when I got 14 cards, they were a dollar a piece). You can use them anywhere VISA is accepted. After 6 months, they start charging a certain amount for every month the account is open. I don't think there is a way to delay the onset of the fee, so you don't want to recharge the card (and I don't know if you can).

If it's expired ask...

[kevinbarsby]

I've more than once managed to use an expired gift voucher, with some gentle persuasion.

I guess it boils down to the store and how rigid they are with their policies, but if they reject it, then they run the risk of you shopping elsewhere.

Re:If it's expired ask...

[darkjedi521]

On a related note, some companies will ignore the expiration dates, even without a law. The movie theater chain I work (National Amusements) for between semesters will take any gift certificate/coupon issued by them, at least in southern CT, even if it has expired. The last shift I worked, a customer had certificates of a type that hadn't been issued in 10 years, yet I still had to take them. We also give change for the remainder of the cert if the purchase is less than the full value of the certificate.

Re:If it's expired ask...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is good. I am in favor of your company, and will recommend it to all my followers.

Edit: After doing copious research, I have discovered that this so-called "National Amusements" is nothing more than a puppet of the MPAA. As always, I urge my followers to boycott the MPAA and instead watch films at home using legal file-liberation tools.

Sincerely,
Seth Finklestein
Activist

Re:If it's expired ask...

[rmohr02]

I guess it boils down to the store and how rigid they are with their policies, but if they reject it, then they run the risk of you shopping elsewhere.

One should note that this isn't too much of a loss for the company as they already have the money.

Re:If it's expired ask...

[kevinbarsby]

One should note that this isn't too much of a loss for the company as they already have the money.

Yes, but they lose out if you decide to buy similar gift vouchers from other stores when buying for friends etc.

Basically a friendly policy towards outdated vouchers is more likely to win you future business than an unfriendly one.

Re:If it's expired ask...

[Random832]

yeah, because you can edit posts on slashdot... right..

It pays to read the fine print...

[siliconjunkie]

"Gift Cards" offered by retailers are one of those phenomena in which it pays to read the fine print. Some people would assume, incorrectly, that there is some kind of "set standard" for gift card practices, when, in fact, you don't really know what you are "buying". I worked for a retailer that, on occasion gave away "$25 coupons" (not gift card/certificates) with every "$50 purchase", but, due to fine print in the company's "gift card" policy, the shopper could not apply "gift card purchases" toward that offer. The way the fine print stated it, the "purchase" of a gift card is not a "purchase" at all, as the actual "purchase" occours when the gift card is redeemed.

I always thought this was a little shady, as the customer is actually handing over their money (ie: purchasing) when they buy the gift card, but my company's legal team didn't see it that way, insisting that "gift cards" did not constitute a "product" being purchased, it was simply money exchanged between "accounts".

Re:It pays to read the fine print...

[Jerf]

I always thought this was a little shady, as the customer is actually handing over their money (ie: purchasing) when they buy the gift card, but my company's legal team didn't see it that way, insisting that "gift cards" did not constitute a "product" being purchased, it was simply money exchanged between "accounts".

Accountants easily fall into the trap of thinking that all the numbers they have to juggle actually mean something, when the only meaningful numbers are "income" and "expenditure". (This is not to say the rest is a waste of time; there are tax requirements, for instance, and the need to intelligently view the other data... but those too, are only meaningful ultimately in terms of income and expenditure, excepting maybe the parts you have to do to avoid prison time.)

Don't get too smug, Slashdotteers... many similar traps abound in programming, too, and we're notorious for falling into them.

Re:It pays to read the fine print...

[amjacobs]

If you could buy gift certificates with that offer, you would be able to buy $50 dollars of gift cards, and get another $25. Then you could use those cards, to buy more cards. With enough time, you could basically print your own money for the store. (with an initial investment of $50)

Re:It pays to read the fine print...

[TheGavster]

On CBS radio, there was a quick blurb about reaping profit by selling off stock to new departments in your company (they said they could be your 'best customer'). I heard it, and couldn't imagine how insane you'd have to be to think that selling something to yourself caused anything but a shifting of numbers across a spreadsheet.

Re:It pays to read the fine print...

[AnotherBlackHat]

I heard it, and couldn't imagine how insane you'd have to be to think that selling something to yourself caused anything but a shifting of numbers across a spreadsheet.

How those numbers sit on a spreadsheet can determine how much tax you owe.
Computers, for example, can't (normally) be expensed, they have to be depreciated.
Sell them to another department for a dollar, and you can realize the loss immediately.

This insanity brought to you by the IRS.

Re:It pays to read the fine print...

[siliconjunkie]

If you could buy gift certificates with that offer, you would be able to buy $50 dollars of gift cards, and get another $25. Then you could use those cards, to buy more cards. With enough time, you could basically print your own money for the store. (with an initial investment of $50)

Actually, they already had a way around THAT happening as well...the way the "coupons" worked was you not only had to spend $50 to *get* the card, you also had to spend $50 to *redeem* the card ($25 out of your own pocket / $25 covered by the card), so even if the customer hit's $50 right on the nose for both of qualifying purchases, the discount, (in the case, the highest possible discount they could get through this deal) is 25% off their entire qualifying purchases. The company would *still* make a profit, even if people bought nothing but gift cards, because we are talking about a mall chain here, that is selling stuff with waaaaay over a 25% markup (think the type of store that sells $20 tee-shirts). It's not just the company that i worked for that does this either, this type of promotion is fairly common in a lot of mall chain stores.

Re:It pays to read the fine print...

[Bastian]

Ask the legal team who gets that money when the gift certificate expires and why it says no cash value.

The customer didn't open an account with the Gap, they bought an I.O.U. from the Gap.

Re:It pays to read the fine print...

[goldmeer]

my company's legal team didn't see it that way, insisting that "gift cards" did not constitute a "product" being purchased, it was simply money exchanged between "accounts".

So the compsny's legal team would have no problem reversing the exchange of money between accounts and provide cash for the face value of the Gift Card?

That's what I thought.

Doesn't make sense

[deadkarma]

I'm not entirely sure we need a law to govern this. If someone is naive enough to take money that is good everywhere and make it good only in one place and expire after a while, then so be it I say.

Re:Doesn't make sense

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure we should be ecouraging people to profit at the expense of integrity because it's not specifically prohibited. Yeah, the world could benefit from the suffering of idiots, but the resulting largess shouldn't be given to the ass-clowns either.

It's funny how people are so concerned about legislating who can put what in another's rectum and what document they might have in their scrapbook, or for insurance purposes, under the guise of some notion of morality, but how apathetic they are when it comes to people getting what they pay for. Since when did trade and business become synonomous with swindling? 1981? Was there a memo? Or did I just not learn the secret handshake?

Re:Doesn't make sense

[Anonymous Coward]

I rather agree with you, but somehow in our culture it's become "unpolite" to give cash to someone as a gift, and apparently a plastic card that represents cash only good at one place is less unpolite. Go figure.

Re:Doesn't make sense

[Technician]

I'm not entirely sure we need a law to govern this. If someone is naive enough to take money that is good everywhere and make it good only in one place and expire after a while, then so be it I say.


My favorite way to educate them is to keep the cards a year and send them back as gifts next year. The card seldom has a purchase date, so they find the details when they use it. Next time they are a little more educated in their purchase decisions. It's best if you get a couple cards from a couple friends and swap them so they don't get the same card. Let them deal with the card shrinkage and the store.

Bah Humbug

[Waffle Iron]

Holiday gift exchanges with my extended family has devolved into exchanging various gift certificates from big box retail chains. IMO, this is pretty stupid, since all we're doing is mutually constraining our purchase options. Plus, it's just another thing that I have to remember is buried in my wallet. I've gone to stores over and over, forgetting each time to use one of their gift cards that's been in my wallet for over a year.

I wonder why it's acceptable to send someone an Amazon gift card as a present, but it's not acceptable to send them $20 cash, which would be more generally useful.

Maybe it's because then we would realize that the cash exchange cancels out to zero. If we convert the cash to a non-interchangeable form of private money, it makes it seem like the whole exercise has some kind of point.

I guess it's yet another example of an opportunity for smart proprietors to profit off of a common logic flaw in the human brain.

Re:Bah Humbug

[Anonymous Coward]

There are a couple of reasons gift certificates are popular.

Firstly, giving a GC shows that you actually went out to the store and shopped for them. Many people equate cash presents with "Oh, so you forgot it was my birthday until the last minute?"

Secondly, a GC can force the recipient to make a certain type of purchase. Cash gifts often wind up being spent on groceries, or rent, or gasoline. If you give someone a Best Buy GC, you can be fairly certain they'll buy a fun luxury item, rather then some mundane everyday necessity.

Re:Bah Humbug

[XryanX]

"Plus, it's just another thing that I have to remember is buried in my wallet. I've gone to stores over and over, forgetting each time to use one of their gift cards that's been in my wallet for over a year."

You could always set it aside one day and plan out when you're going to use it. You might even be able to go on their website and find what you want before you actually go into the store(assuming that you don't want to pay shipping costs for shopping online).

I've never actually tried this, but it seems like a decent idea to me. I rarely go shopping, so it usually takes a gift card for me to make a conscious decision to go to the store.

Re:Bah Humbug

[Esion Modnar]

you can be fairly certain they'll buy a fun luxury item

It also frees the person from the guilt of not spending the cash on some necessity, i.e. new shoes for baby, etc.

Also, I may know that somebody is a gamer, but have no clue what games he's played or not. So I get him a gift certificate to some game store, and he picks what he wants. Problem solved.

Re:Bah Humbug

[GWTPict]

My kid sister and I gave up on birthday/christmas presents to each other for just this reason, we we're just swapping cash/vouchers twice a year as neither of us could ever think what to buy the other, so now we just send cards.

Re:Bah Humbug

[anon*127.0.0.1]

Unless, of course, they use the GC to buy a gift for someone else. Which I've done more then once.

Re:Bah Humbug

[fermion]

Cash gifts often wind up being spent on groceries, or rent, or gasoline

I suppose forcing someone to buy an item they otherwise wouldn't could be construed to be a good thing. After all, new music or movies are a nice treat. My tendencies are not to habitually ask or give gifts. If I see something that I know someone would want, I buy and treat is as a random act of kindness.

The intersting thing is that my dad did the exact opposite. He gave me gift certificates to the grocery store. That way, if I were broke, I would be sure to have a way to buy food. If I had money, i could use it to buy fun stuff other than food. I must admit one year I abused the gift. I blew the entire wad on buying junk for a new years party.

Re:Bah Humbug

[Anonymous Coward]

But when you give people cash, they go out and buy groceries or other mundane items that people don't want to give as gifts. It's gift psychology.

12% of gift cards never get used...

[kninja]

...this was a statistic quoted to me by a guy who sold these for a living. I sat next to him on a plane back in January.

He sold gift cards to smaller companies, mom and pop stores (not Best Buy or Amazon type juggernauts), and used the main selling points that it was often instant revenue, and the 12% that was never used became pure profit for the company.

He also said that these things sold themselves. I guess he never tried to sell them in Delaware.

Re:12% of gift cards never get used...

[AndroidCat]

That's like those mail-in "discounts" on computer stuff. After people pay the full price, a percentage won't send in the card. Those cards that are sent in can be given to vogons to process.

Equally good argument: escheating the company

[goombah99]

Whether the State gets it or the Company gets it it is critical to get this off the books. Otherwise the company slowly accululates huge on-book liabilities that probably never come due but it cant write off. The money never gets back in circulation.

On the otherhand who should get the money. Why is the state the benificiary? Another way of giving it back is to award it to like minded customers. That is give it to the company. Their lower operating costs effectively will be returned to either the customers who shop there or to the investors who think investing in these kinds of comapnies is good. Eitherway like minded consumers benefit from lower costs.

I'd say givign it back to the company makes a lot of sense. Giving it to the state then next best thing. Sunsetting them is critical.

Re:Equally good argument: escheating the company

[BuckaBooBob]

"Their lower operating costs effectively will be returned to either the customers who shop there or to the investors who think investing in these kinds of comapnies is good."

Come on... passing savings onto the customer.. never with any big company... they make all these claims and what not. but its all marketing to make more money... What they market will pay for a product is allways the pricing that ends up on the tags... its only bulk discounts that change the price.. never passing on savings.

Re:Equally good argument: escheating the company

[Anonymous Coward]

That's self-delusion at its finest. With the short term view of those in charge, it's not something that off-sets costs, it's a new source of revenue to exploit and turn into bonuses. There is a complete disconnect in most companies between the layer where policy is made at the top, and where work is done at the bottom. Anytime anything goes right it is wholly due to the change in policy from the top, anytime anything goes wrong it's the fault of those at the bottom. Many times they go out of their way to avoid collecting good data, and to actively apply a confirmation bias. How many retailers have as part of their policies that their employees should treat customers with the upmost respect and courtesy, and endevour to help them have a shopping experience that they can be nothing but happy about, but also that the employees should as a matter of practice mislead customers and ommit important information?

In a perfect world, or just one where even a major fraction of people involved in running and setting policy at companies had strong principles, you'd probably be right. But in practice it will end up as an award to the people who figured out another way to steal people's money and not live up to agreements they make with people who've little power to do anything about it. Whitness the RIAA settlement, Enron, Halibutron no-bid method of four million two thousand dollar invoices, Lease in-lease out and service-for-nothing-contracts methods of tax evasion. They are shirking their responsabilities to the parties that protect them and grant them services without which THEY WOULD NOT EXIST, and they shift that burden to essentially the poor who neither can nor want to avoid it, and keep the difference for themselves.

Re:Equally good argument: escheating the company

[grolaw]

Well, if the company is a mom_and_pop shop you might have a good point. They can't afford to offend their limited market of consumers.

If the company is Microsoft-sized (with the ethics of msft or ENRON) however, then they will have an incentive to screw the customer. They will go from x% profit on the ordinary transaction to 100% profit from the "escheat" of the gift certificate.

And, don't forget that in both cases the company has made money "unearned income" from interest earned on the unspent funds on "deposit" with the company. Drawing interest is a way to lower "operating costs" for the company. I can also imagine how the structuring of the "escheat" could benefit the tax and bottom line positions of the company and those considerations could easily become the prime motivators.

It comes down to writing more definitive contracts - and making clear to the "buyer" of the gift certificate what the terms of the deal are.

Finally, just exactly what is the problem with RETURNING the unspent finds to the buyer?

Re:Equally good argument: escheating the company

[Richard_at_work]

My view is that its a private transaction between the purchaser and the company. If the purchaser fails to collect in a timely manner, then sucks to be them, and the company should be under no further obligation to the purchaser or the state. If I lend a friend $20 and I fail to collect it in a timely manner, I see no reason why the state should be able to benifit from it.

Re:Equally good argument: escheating the company

[Gonarat]

I work in this industry, so maybe I can shed some light on the situation.

When one purchases a gift card from XYZ store, say for $50.00, the card has no link to the customer. This means there is no name or other personal data stored on the system for that card number. We store the card number, date of issuance, location of issuance, and amount of issuance for each card.

When XYZ takes the money for that gift card, it is not counted as revenue, since no good or service has been purchased. In the normal life of a card, purchases are made, and eventually the value of the card goes to zero. In the mean time, XYZ stores the funds in an account and makes interest off of the money.

When gift cards were first issued, part of the "agreement" was that after 24 months of non-usage (the clock begins again after a purchase, refund, addition of funds, or a balance inquiry (for some clients). After the 24 months, a dormancy fee of (say) $2.00/month kicks in back to the last time the card was used. This means now our $50.00 gift card has $2.00 ($50 - ($2.00 * 24)) left on it. After month 25, the value would be zero.

Dormancy is used not only to remove old cards off of the system, but to move funds to the retailer in the form of a service charge. All was well and good (from the retailer's point of view) until a case was brought forward in California. The arguement was that these are customer's funds and the Company has no right to claim them because no goods or services were exchanged. The case was won, but a new problem was presented -- who gets the funds?

Remember, no personal data is attached to the card number, so there is no way XYZ can go back to the purchaser and say hey -- you have $50 you forgot about!

Enter, the state. The law already states that a bank has to turn over dormant accounts to the State or Federal government (depending if the Bank is State of Federal) after a period of time (7 years if I remember correctly). States are seeing these Gift Card funds as a easy source of revenue. Although all one has to do to claim the money is produce the gift card to the State, the likelyhood of this happening is small. This basicly means low risk funds coming into the State that although technically remains on the books as unclaimed funds, can be used to help cover state budgets.

This is a simplified version of the issue, but this for the most part what is happening. More States are looking into this as it appears friendly to the consumer while moving funds into state coffers.

Re:Equally good argument: escheating the company

[Mycroft_VIII]

Another way companies get a free ride is on your withholdings. They have to turn that in quarterly iirc, but they take it out of your check every pay period. Guess what they do with that money in the meantime. That's right, anything they want including just collecting intrest. As long as it's sent to uncle sam on time all is kosher.
However it does simplify the employee's life in many cases as (s)he doesn't have to deal with it but once a year as a result.

Mycroft

Re:Equally good argument: escheating the company

[Mycroft_VIII]

"More States are looking into this as it appears friendly to the consumer while moving funds into state coffers."

Follow the money and find the real reasons.

almost anytime some stranger offers to help for altruistic reasons it's a good idea to keep an eye on your own wallet. Governments are stranger than most.

Mycroft

Re:Equally good argument: escheating the company

[grolaw]

The size of the company workforce determines how often they remit 940 & 941 taxes. They can be required to file weekly if they have a large enough workforce.

Re:Equally good argument: escheating the company

[Anonymous Coward]

But don't you see?

If an evil, nasty, money-grubbing company takes your money, that's bad. If the lovely, wonderful government takes your money, that's good.

Re:Equally good argument: escheating the company

[Mycroft_VIII]

Thank you. I did not know that. How long has this been the case?
I'm shure the companies can still make a little this way though, depending on how average daily balances are used and the specifics of the timing.
Even if that 'tax money' only sits for a day or so It likely raises the average balance.

Mycroft

Re:Equally good argument: escheating the company

[grolaw]

Oh, since 1964...

If you are only 40 years behind on Tax Law you are way ahead of the pack.

Re:Equally good argument: escheating the company

[Mycroft_VIII]

Well that explains that. Of course I never studied tax law in of itself, my info comes from the short, simplified stuff thrown out tengential relavent in other subjects.
Frankly we need a tax law simplification to the point where the concept of tax preparer seems silly and stupid. I figure if the tax law can't be printed on the reverse of the form legibly, it's too complicated.

Mycroft

Why is amazon pointed out to look evil?

[phaetonic]

It should be of no surprise, especially to investors, that a company like amazon would use the law to their advantage and open A2Z where they did. Bezos (and his cohorts) have made amazon one of the most popular online shopping sites in the world with alliances including cdnow, toys r us, office depot, circuit city, and others. Their stock has been doing very well for a while now.

Lets not forget the best part of online gift certs.. you can buy them the same day you need them, from your work, because you forgot about your 's birthday/anniversery, etc.

now if only

[howman]

they could get rid of that pesky, so much per month charge for unused card, thing like they have on the starbucks card...
Starbucks makes it out like it is costing them a fortune to keep a database file of how much you have on their card.
I will explain, too long, I will sum up, You get a card at $B, put money on it, if you don't use it for a certain period, they wipe it clean and you are done, or if you neglect to use it for a period they charge you for not using it...
sound fair to you, or should I say, sound fare?
Don't know about you but it leaves me with a bad taste of burnt coffee in my mouth, of course this just might be the $B coffee I had this morning.

Re:now if only

[eggboard]

The Washington law doesn't allow gift card issues to charge the maintenance fee, but they can now keep the money if it's unused for some period of time -- I was unclear on whether that was still three years.

Re:now if only

[howman]

I was, unclearly, speaking only from my experience here in Japan and In Canada... Thanks though for the input on 3 years as if memory serves me correct in Canada, they trash the value of your card if you don't use it for 12 consecutive months, and charge you somewhere in the neighbourhood of $2 per month that it is unused up to the amount on the card or 12 months which ever comes first.
I am still deciphering the notations on the back of my Japanese card, but I suspect it is the same.
I would not doubt if companies set their own standards outside of the United States citing international trade and home country laws to push for whatever is best for them.

Mind games

[achurch]

2. People who receive gift certificates feel obligated to use them to their full amount, otherwise they will lose the value of the card. The only problem is few things are exactly worth $20, so the consumer is forced to either pay up their own money for something, or buy something for less than the value of the card.

This is probably the biggest benefit to the retailers. I myself just received a 300-yen gift certificate from amazon.co.jp good for three months or so, and while I know enough about the system not to run out and spend it (plus my own money) on some random thing, I have to admit the temptation is there to find something I'd want anyway and get it before the gift certificate expires.

If Japan had a law preventing expiration, that psychological pressure would definitely be lessened.

Re:Mind games

[Distinguished Hero]

I myself just received a 300-yen gift certificate

Um... 300 yen is less than 3 American Dollars ($2.79 to be exact) with the current exchange rate. You must know some pretty cheap people...

Re:Mind games

[achurch]

It was a promotion from Amazon. I'm not sure for what, but they must have been running something last time I bought from them. <shrug>

Re:Mind games

[rio]

Gosh, I wish you would hurry up and buy something! LOL

As a mail-order retailer (or internet biz, who cares, it's all the same) I really hate having to take into account all those nickels, dimes and totally forgotten certificates.. some of which have been on the books for.... ohhh, 10 or 15 years now....

Inflation must be taking SOME toll on this...

I don't really care to profit by pocketing the money. But having to keep rolling over the info and track the details each year... is a personal pain in the neck.

The only thing is, unlike some other larger retailers, I DO know who bought that "gift certificate" (or store credit). Sometimes I lose track of them, but... I do know who the money came from. Each one is also serial coded, so if someone can give me reasonable identifying information about it, I can easily find it in the records and apply it when someone wants to use it. Even when the actual "paper" copy has long gone missing.

In the end, I'm just lazy... tired of the paperwork.
On the other hand, if my customers knew after X amount of time the money would be sent to the STATE-- they'd probably take enough offense to that to actually USE the credit they have...

--------------

Re:Mind games

[catch23]

I think amazon has better promotions than a 300-yen promotion. That's like McDonalds giving away "free ketchup" for every large fries you order.

Re:Mind games

[Anonymous Coward]

Not necessarily, they're constantly having 5 cent promotions.

Gift cards, blecchh

[secondsun]

I have never understood gift cards or gift certificates. If I don't know what to get a person I do the best thing possible, get them a nice card they will like, a book, and 20$. Then the recpiaint gets what he/she wants and I get the satisfaction of knowing I didn't just give them 20$ at the last minute. Gift cards give money to a store you may or may not shop at for no real benefit to the recipiant. Last Christmas I received 2 25$ gift cards to chain resturants form family. Unfortunately I live in rural Georgia and it is a 30 minutes drive to the nearest McDonalds and an hour plus drive to a Buffaloes, Moe's, Joe's crab shack, Roadhouse Grill, etc.

SO would someone here please explain why people buy gift cards instead of cheap gift + cash? (Which is all giftcards are in my eyes)

Re:Gift cards, blecchh

[Anonymous Coward]

It's very obvious; giving straight out cash is tacky. Frankly, it doesn't take much thought into just giving someone a wad of cash (or a check, etc.). Alternatively, giving someone a gift card at least puts some thought into their particular likes/interests. That is, you would be much more likely to give a tech enthusiast a gift certificate to a place like Best Buy while someone fond of reading might instead receive a gift certificate to Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etc.

Also, like some other poster mentioned, at least a gift certificate helps focus what the receiver eventually purchases. In this way, I'd tend to think one's parents would rather see their kids receive gift certificates from somewhere like Amazon or Barnes & Noble where at least in theory, they might be inclined to purchase a textbook they need and save money, etc. Yeah, that's the ideal case, but at least it eliminates the possiblity of the person buying drugs with spare cash or whatnot.

Re:Gift cards, blecchh

[NeoSkandranon]

I work at a bookstore. Lots of people have friends/family that read, however have NO clue WHAT they read (genre/author etc)
Around christmas we sell STACKS of gift certs for precisely this reason. Besides that, many avid readers enjoy the pleasure of coming to shop around for an hour or two before deciding on something. I myself love getting gift certs (esp now that i get a discount on the books...) because then i get to go look around at everything and so forth.

Ideally one would consider what stores the giftee would be likely to shop at and purchase gift certs appropriately, but it sounds like your family didn't really consider that.
Gift cards are great when you are pretty sure someone would like something at that store (Best Buy/ Electronics Botique for us /t'ers for example) but aren't sure specifically what. You also run the risk of purchasing somethign they already have/aren't interested in. The card also means you at least THOUGHT about what they MIGHT like instead of popping a 20 in a Hallmark card

Hope that clarifies some.

Re:Gift cards, blecchh

[cot]

Here's another reason,

when i get cards, sometimes i end up taking the cash and sticking it in my wallet and it ends up being just more pocket money that gets spent who knows where. It just saves me from going to the atm for a few days

getting a GC, i actually have to go out and buy myself something specific from the store, and its a lot more like a gift than the cash i just spent was

Re:Gift cards, blecchh

[Danny Rathjens]

Some people, like 14 year old cousins with a marijuana charge on their record, can't be trusted with cash.

Plus, giving cash makes it clear you don't really know enough about the person to give them an appropriate gift. At least, with a gift certificate, you can narrow it down a bit for their interests.

A gift certificate can also be a way of forcing the person to splurge a bit, but still letting them get exactly what they want. e.g. a gift certificate for some pricy store to a person that normally shops at less expensive places.

Re:Gift cards, blecchh

[hazem]

It's very obvious; giving straight out cash is tacky. Frankly, it doesn't take much thought into just giving someone a wad of cash (or a check, etc.). Alternatively, giving someone a gift card at least puts some thought into their particular likes/interests.

Who says it's tacky? If it's a cultural thing, it's dumb, like a country going gaga over Britney Spears or the Beatles.

A nice card, with cash/check, and a note that says, "spend this on a vacation/computer game/book/cd/dvd/textbooks that you like" takes just as much thought as buying a GC for the same activity, yet gives the recipient much more freedom. EG, I'm a tech enthusiast, but I really don't like Best Buy - they're overpriced and don't have a good selection. If I got a card for them I now have to spend more for something I probably wouldn't buy in the first place. Forcing me to do that, now THAT's tacky!

I prefer the cash, and then I send a thank you telling the person how I spent it. Likewise, if I can't find something "special" to give someone, then sure, I'll give them cash.

Re:Gift cards, blecchh

[rmohr02]

I have never understood gift cards or gift certificates.... Last Christmas I received 2 25$ gift cards to chain resturants form family. Unfortunately I live in rural Georgia and it is a 30 minutes drive to the nearest McDonalds and an hour plus drive to a Buffaloes, Moe's, Joe's crab shack, Roadhouse Grill, etc.

This is not necessarily something bad about gift cards--it just shows that you got a gift you can't easily use, such as if I was given a mower (I live in an apartment). Personally, I only give someone a gift card/certificate if I know that person shops/eats at the place I got the certificate from frequently (for instance, a McDonald's gift card would be more useless to me than to you as I can't stand McDonald's and refuse to eat there, but you might use the card when you traveled).

Re:Gift cards, blecchh

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with you.

This "cash is tacky" argument is not only silly, its hypocritical.

What do graduating teens get after high school from their relatives? Cash.

Heck, I've been to a lot of weddings and usually as a gift from an uncle or close friend the couple will get a few hundred (or thousand, if its a rich uncle).

Message for my relatives: If you don't like the cash, feel free to send it back! I'm sure there are plenty of people who would be more greatful to accept it.

If you don't like cash, then you are messed up.

Re:Gift cards, blecchh

[raygundan]

You get the same result by writing something nice like "Here's $20 to pick up a couple of books you like!"

Gift cards are a plague. A thoughtful note about what you think the money could be used for says as much about your effort (if not more) than picking up a plastic card from some random retailer. Which is more than likely just going to annoy the person when the local bookstore you bought it at doesn't have what they want, or charges too much for it. $20 goes a lot farther at Half-Price Books than it does at Borders.

Personally, I skip the Hallmark card, too. Those just say "I'm too lazy to write you a note. Here's some kittens." Get some nice stationary, and handwrite something to go with the cash. The whole thing will mean more to, be more useful, and purchase more for your recipient, all without letting some corporation earn interest on your gradually depreciating gift card purchase.

Re:Gift cards, blecchh

[NeoSkandranon]

The moral of that story is: Don't get them gift certs to a crappy retailer.

Re:Gift cards, blecchh

[raygundan]

The moral I was trying for was: My definition of a crappy retailer and somebody else's most likely differ.

You heard it first here

[ross.w]

Strange no other media picked up on this, but then Western Australia is pretty remote

Re:Why the hell do these things exist?

[XryanX]

I actually like getting gift cards. With cash, I'll probably spend it on stupid things like deciding to eat out.

Conversely, a gift card narrows it down to where I have to spend it. I can usually find things that I want at that store anyway.

For example, I'm not a huge movie fan, so I wouldn't normally spend my money on a DVD. If I have a Best Buy gift card for $20, I don't have much choice. It's a nice excuse for buying unnecessary items.

The WA goverment should stay out of this

[bugmenot]

Why do we need goverment to get involved on the expiration date for gift certificates? If some store sells gift certificates that expire within a month we have the option of not buying it! I know that is a novel concept for some people, but no one is obligated to purchase gift certs at any given store.
I could understand if tehy paased a law to ensure the the expiration date was clearly displayed, but this is a waste of their time and it will probably not be enforced anyway.

Re:The WA goverment should stay out of this

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it's a scam.

And a lot of retailers are not only now expiring gift certificates, but they're also claiming a "storage fee" after a few months for maintaning the account in their records.

Re:The WA goverment should stay out of this

[Maestro4k]

• Why do we need goverment to get involved on the expiration date for gift certificates? If some store sells gift certificates that expire within a month we have the option of not buying it! I know that is a novel concept for some people, but no one is obligated to purchase gift certs at any given store.

The law's more to protect the recepient of the gift card, NOT the buyer. As a recepient you don't have a choice to avoid a store that has shady gift card practices. I know I lost $30 in Amazon gift cards once because of their flakey rules, I don't particularly think Amazon deserved to keep that money either.

Re:The WA goverment should stay out of this

[Mulletproof]

"but they're also claiming a "storage fee" after a few months for maintaning the account in their records."

So where does that put ATM fees? If we're going to regulate meaningless bullshit, I'd rather have the state go after the meaningless bullshit that I encounter on a regular basis, not once or twice a freakin' year.

Re:The WA goverment should stay out of this

[LostCluster]

It's also being used as a "bait and switch" tactic as places that offer such cards quietly installed them while taking down their former gift certificate offers. Go to a Simon-owned mall and ask for a mall gift certificate and the pitch for the Visa Gift Card will begin just as if you had asked for Coke at a resturant that sells Pepsi products.

The states put the laws that regulate gift certifcates in order to maintain consumer protections, and then these things spring up as workarounds to offer instead. It's no wonder that the states are reinstalling the regulations onto the new platforms.

Re:The WA goverment should stay out of this

[Anonymous Coward]

Because leaving private business to regulate itself, or depend on people "not buying" is like leaving a pot of honey with a hungry bear and trusting him not to eat it.

Repeat after me: Government is not the enemy. The government is your voice. Why devalue it? Criticize, of course, helps to improve things, but stripping power away from it is only stripping power from yourself. You alone cannot stand up against one of these large companies.

Re:The WA goverment should stay out of this

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm. This sounds like something ripped straight out of 1984. "Trust the government! Slavery is Freedom" etc, ad. nasuem.

If the government was my voice, why do I still have to pay taxes for programs I don't want or agree with? Why does the government issue laws that limit my freedom that I don't want?

I'm sorry, but the more government argument doesn't work. Government should protect people from people, but it should not baby them. Government should stay out of my life when I don't want it and it should not protect stupid people from their own stupid decisions.

You can quite easily stand up against these large companies: DONT BUY THEIR GIFT CARDS!

You don't need government to tell you that, do you?

Re:The WA goverment should stay out of this

[Anonymous Coward]

How hard is it for consumers to protect themselves?

Enforce the terms and conditions of the gift certificate/card as they were laid out at the time of purcahse for the purchaser.

We, in a tremendous display of irony, force our citizenry to attend years of public schooling, suposedly for the stated purpose of developing literate and thinking citizens. Yet, we pass these laws that imply consumers are too stupid to evaluate the restrictions of the product they are buying, all in the name of "protection".

"Oh, they wouldn't be smart enough to ask the clerk or read the print on the back of the card! We gotta do something. They don't know better!"

I'm sorry, but I have to say this is just outright stupid. These types of laws just promote outright blind consumerism - "Oh, Pa Gubmint will protect me if I don't like this here gift card!" instead of a population of consumers who learn how to question, how to think, and how to judge the quality of good or service they buy.

If we are going to pass a law to "protect" people, would it not be far better to pass education reform laws that force our schools to better teach our future citizens how to be careful buyers?

Re:The WA goverment should stay out of this

[Anonymous Coward]

That is where your argument fails.

You didn't buy the cards. Why do you think you are entitled to any say when your didn't spend a dime on it?

If you don't like restrictive gift cards, do not accept any from the people who give them to you.

Its not like you spend $30 on a product and then found out it wasn't what you hoped for.

Whats next, someone getting mad that they only got a Ford Escort that was on display instead of a Ford Mustang in a store giveaway like they wanted?

This entitlement mentality is getting out of control. You didn't buy anything, yet you act as if you shelled out your own cash for it.

All currency

[NIK282000]

.. Should be changed to Canadian Tire money, its so simple and they give you some back every time you make a purchace its the burden, erm, gift that keeps on giving.

Re:All currency

[HermanAB]

Hmm, at least Calgary Co-op honors Safeway discount vouchers (and vice versa), but nobody wants to honor another store's gift vouchers.

Many years ago a friend of mine managed to pay a prostitute in Mexico with Canadian Tire money, but then they were chased by the pimps for the rest of their stay...

Gifts to children

[KimJ721]

If I'm giving a gift to a child (say, a niece or nephew), I often give gift certificates. For one thing, it's hard for me to keep up with the latest trends. I have one cousin who is very into manga and it would be impossible for me to keep up with what she's read and what she hasn't. This way, the kids can choose what they want from a particular store.

Why not just give them cash? Some teens and tweens aren't very wise with their choices, and I prefer to let their parents worry about their spending. For example: one Christmas my grandparents gave both my brother and myself decent checks. Mine went into a bank account where I slowly depleted it over the course of several months for textbooks and entertainment in college. My younger high-school age brother immediately spent the entire thing on fake Asian-looking swords from a hobby store. My parents had to ban all relatives from giving him cash for a few years because they were so horrified by how he blew a huge chunk of money. Gift certificates would have avoided that problem.

Adults are a different issue. My grandmother likes to write me checks but tell me what I'm supposed to spend it on (e.g., furniture). That's sort of like a gift certificate in the sense of indicating where the money should be spent, but I can choose which furniture store to visit. And I still often give my brother gift certificates because the sword incident sticks in my mind. *grin*

Re:Gifts to children

[Dogtanian]

And I still often give my brother gift certificates because the sword incident sticks in my mind.

Mmmm... he didn't *literally* stick one of the swords in your mind, did he? Yeuch.

Play fair.

[Eevee]

Otherwise the company slowly accululates huge on-book liabilities

But only after slowly accumulating a huge on-book asset of all that cash they've taken in. Put that money in the bank and never touch it until a gift certificate comes back in, then you'll always have the cash to offset that liability--plus the interest for free.

Re:Play fair.

[loraksus]

you can buy gift certificates for much less than face value. . .

Re:Play fair.

[rice_web]

Ahem:

Inflation.

Re:Play fair.

[Eraser_]

Inflation works both ways though, the money is less useful to the company, and the consumer. $20 today buys you a stack of blank cds. $20 tomorrow buys you half a stack. Any company worth the floorspace will adjust their prices for inflation. Regardless, 1% of $20 is still 20 cents annualy. Make a seperate sub-account on the books for gift cards, and shave the interest off the top as income/payment for the physical card. When the time comes 7 years later or what ever, give the money to the state and add $1.40 to your bottom line income.

This could be automated. Easily.

It's very simple

[east coast]

Stores need to have a finite life to gift cards. Their accountants need to know what's in stock, what's capital and what's currently able to be claimed. How long can a store sit on capital in the name of unclaimed gift cards?

They need to keep the cash flow going in the name of a good economy. Why should they be force to forever ponder the future fate of capital based on 25 year old gift cards?

And for all of you out there questioning the rights and wrongs of cash vs. gift card... Go ask Martha Stewart... This is Slashdot, not Queer Eye for the Straight Guy; Christmas Edition. Now off with ya!

Re:It's very simple

[Maestro4k]

• They need to keep the cash flow going in the name of a good economy. Why should they be force to forever ponder the future fate of capital based on 25 year old gift cards?

Because some of them market the gift cards as essentially cash replacements. If they're going to market it that way, then they need to treat it that way. I don't mind a gift certificate that expires when it's marketed that way, but I do think charging fees and taking the money and running when you tried to convince me it was just a convenient cash replacement is quite wrong.

That said I use Wal-mart's gift cards to budget my gas purchases each month (the 3 cent discount is nice too, makes the gas the cheapest in town). I keep the money running in and out though so there's no concerns about it ever expiring. I also tend to use any extra leftover for a month to buy myself something to clear the card out each month.

Re:It's very simple

[east coast]

Because some of them market the gift cards as essentially cash replacements.

To be very honest with you I've never seen one that claims that it's a cash replacement or represents itself as such.

The buyer need beware. This is true of just about all aspects of marketing. Read the fine print. Hell, most people spend more time deciding on what they're going to eat any any given day than they do in deciding how their money will be spent.

Re:It's very simple

[Anonymous Coward]

How long can a store sit on capital in the name of unclaimed gift cards?

I would love to bear the "burden" of having to keep all that money in an insured interest earning account until the customer eventually claims it.

Re:It's very simple

[Anonymous Coward]

And thats the problem. Consumers are given less and less reason to be responsible with their purchases.

We seem to be headed towards a "babysitter" economy where government acts as a "big brother" and watches over the sheep who don't know any better (and don't have any reason to want to).

Re:It's very simple

[east coast]

We seem to be headed towards a "babysitter" economy where government acts as a "big brother" and watches over the sheep who don't know any better (and don't have any reason to want to).

Well, once the reason becomes clear why having control over our own affairs is a good thing it's already too late.

money exchanged between "accounts".

[oliverthered]

if it is just ' money exchanged between "accounts".' then that makes them a bank dealing in there own currency which has all kinds of regulations.

Thanks Slashdot!

[damiangerous]

I mean, this obviously wasn't newsworthy when my state's law on this went into effect nearly a year ago, or when those other 19 states' laws did. But 20! That's perfect. Wouldn't want to jump the gun and report before anyone else, but you don't want to look like you're just on the bandwagon either. Brilliant!

All I gotta say is....

[Anonymous Coward]

WOO-FREAKIN'-HOO!

/lives in Washington state
It's about time something like this get passed.

Massachusetts

[__aajwxe560]

Massachusetts has a similar law already, and so some retailers try and skirt it by indicating its actually an ATM-like card, and not an actual "gift card".

Ah, gift certificates

[jridley]

...all the thought of cash, just not as good.

Seriously, why do people give these things? **NOBODY** wouldn't rather have cash. I suppose people think that it proves that they put some kind of thought into it, but they're wrong. "Oh, he's a techie person, give him a CompUSA gift card." Gee, thanks. If I had cash instead I could get the tech stuff I *want* instead of what CompUSA happens to have. Or maybe my car is broken this week, but it's hard to get the mechanic to take a $100 CompUSA card in payment.

Re:Ah, gift certificates

[Dogtanian]

it's hard to get the mechanic to take a $100 CompUSA card in payment.

Sure he would, just not for its full $100 value, maybe some proportion dependent on whether he needed it or could sell it on, etc etc...

Re:Ah, gift certificates

[Anonymous Coward]

3 words for you:

Visa Gift Cards

AC

Re:Ah, gift certificates

[jridley]

Yes, that's getting VERY nearly as good as cash. But still not quite, and it's not what's being discussed.

For me, no hunk of plastic beats opening the envelope xmas morning and finding a few nice crisp benjamins.

Jamba Juice does this too

[psoriac]

I think this is a great move by the state for consumer protection. I only wish the federal government would pass similar legislation.

I recently purchased a Jamba Juice card because they were offering a free drink with the purchase of a $25 card, and I figured that since I was going to spend that much eventually anyway, I might as well get a free drink out of it.

I noticed on the back that if you don't use your card for 12 months, they start deducting $2 a month for every subsequent month you don't use it as a "maintenance fee". While I applaud them for putting this on the card itself, I still think it's wrong. You've basically given them cash; they have no right to start taking it from you just because you haven't asked for any back in a while. The interest they're making on the amount I "deposited" should be more than enough. (And before anyone points out that $25 is not much interest, think about 4,000 people buying cards... all of a sudden, interest on $100,000 doesn't seem so small anymore does it?)

Re:Jamba Juice does this too

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it too much to ask to get people to evaluate would-be purchases before actually buying them? If you feel like they dont the right for taking money, then you shouldn't have bought the card in the first place.

How is this consumer protection? The consumer could have asked questions or read the fine print before purchasing. Why is it the fault of the seller for your own inability to evaluate the products you buy?

I'm sorry, but I cannot have any sympathy here. As long as the terms and conditions are avaliable to the consumer before purchase, then there is no excuse for someone not knowing.

booking of sales

[XO]

Here's the deal:

Gift CERTIFICATES and gift CARDS are actually two seperate products, covered under different laws.

A gift CERTIFICATE will have an expiration date normally of 3-6 months from date of issuance. When a company sells a CERTIFICATE, they book the sale immediatly, and then book a loss when the certificate is redeemed.

A gift CARD, however, is a pre-paid credit card. Like a normal credit card, it has an expiration date that is usually astronomically longer than a CERTIFICATE.. if -ever-. And a company does not book a SALE on the card until the card is actually USED. A company that I used to work for issues gift cards with NO expiration date - however, on the back of the gift card, it does state that if the card is not used at any point during a consecutive three-year period, $1.00 will be taken from the card (and they get to write that up as a sale, in the company) for every successive year after that three year period, until the card is used by a customer (then it starts it's three years over again), or the value of the card is depleted (by either use, or charging $1.00 to it every year for virtually damn forever).

In this company's case, it's about booking it. If the card is ever lost, and never recovered, it will eventually expire, and generate future sales at the rate of $1 per year. Yes, in the case of a $400 gift card, that could take a bare minimum of 403 years from date of issuance.

Re:booking of sales

[whovian]

A gift CARD, however, is a pre-paid credit card.

Thanks for clarifying; that's what I was thinking at first. But then I realized that they are not exactly prepaid credit cards. They aren't because they are not tied to a specific account.

Compare to prepaid cell phone cards. The 20 or 30 bucks you have to buy every few months to keep the card "active", even if you don't use your minutes, is basically a service charge or fee (read: penalty). Those too would probalby fall under Washington's laws if it were't bound to an account.

Re:booking of sales

[LostCluster]

However, increasingly states are passing laws that say "Forget it, if you sell a gift card here it's really a gift certificate so go see the book of laws that apply to that."

In Massachusetts, the tipping point was the bankruptcy of the Bradlee's department store chain. Bradlee's sold their gift cards up until the day that the announced their bankruptcy after business hours. The next day, when the stores reopened in the hands of a liquidator, the liquidator refused to honor the gift cards because they claimed they were not responsible for the liablities of the failed company, they were just their to extract whatever value possible from the assets.

The state eventually pressured the store into getting the liquidator to accept the cards by threatening to represent the card-holding consumers of the state as a stakeholder in the bankruptcy, which would have made a serious mess since all of the unclaimed cards would come back to haunt an already troubled company. Instead, it was simply announced that the cards were good at face value for the remainder of the going out of business sale until the end at which point they'd be worthless. The reform law was not far behind at that point.

Just Plain Bad Buisness

[Anonymous Coward]

My experience with Radio Shack:

I am a little short on cash and about to start adjunct teaching at a local college. I buy a computer on credit from Radio Shack. My parents help me out at Christmas and give me a $100 gift certificate.

I had trusted and liked Radio Shack, I never used the Gift Certificate to pay for the computer. When I decided to go buy some fun stuff with the certificate I was shown the smallest text on the certificate, it stated the certificate had an expiration date.

I hope that Radio Shack enjoyed the $100, I have never purchased another item from them. I went onto teach intro technology courses for 5 years and made it a point to never reccommend Radio Shack.

Large companies have the ability to pull up your buying habits for the last five years but the gift certificate expires in one year? I can understand that companies can not have gift certificates uncashed forever. The expiration should be clearly marked. I can assure you that Radio Shack lost alot more than $100 and I would guess whoever figured out this trick got a raise.

Just plain and simple bad buisness, reading some of the beginning comments about Amazon encourages me to stay away from them.

Michigan's Law

[Anita Coney]

In Michigan, gift certificates are supposed to last five years. After five years, if it is worth more than $50, then the state is supposed to get the money. Any individual who can prove the money is theirs can get the money from the state. If it's less than $50, then the business can just keep it after five years.

However, apparently no one follows this law. I see plenty of businesses that attempt to limit their gift certificates, some even for only 6 months.

I wonder if Washington will have any more luck than Michigan in enforcing their law.

Re:Michigan's Law

[stephanruby]

However, apparently no one follows this law. I see plenty of businesses that attempt to limit their gift certificates, some even for only 6 months.

In California, the cash value doesn't expire period, but it's the same thing where it comes to employee ignorance, the person working the register usually doesn't know the law.

In order to enforce your consumer rights, you have to know them in the first place.
For a good starting place to learn your rights --> look here.

My parents got M&S gift cards for their engage

[Anonymous Cowpat]

M&S = Marks & Spencers, high street department store type place for those not in the UK.
They don't expire.
3 years ago, my mother spent the M&S gift vouchers that they had recieved at their wedding 22 years after having been given them..
No doubt the person behind the counter was shocked to be given a gift voucher older than they were, but it was still valid.
However, it hadn't survived inflation very well, 2 1 vouchers were still worth 2. Unfortunately, 2 is not worth nearly as much as what it was worth when the vouchers were given.
M&S took a decent value of cash for these bits of paper & redeemed them 22 years later (after having had the cash to invest for 22 years) for something worth much less.
Which is why I hate getting gift vouchers - I've never had one for over 22 years, but if I did it would depreciate in real value... and I'd be locked into spending it at a specific place.

states don't get the money, anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

In gift card parlance, unclaimed money is referred to as 'breakage' and is the major portion of profits in gift card schemes.
Even in states that insist that the breakage is returned to the states, the gift card company simply adds a large service charge for the 'processing' and retains almost all of it. This is especially relevant for any leftover value (usually small) after the purchase. Breakage can be typically around 10%, so it is a big deal.

Yes it does earn interest

[Anonymous Cowpat]

It earns interest equal to -inflation.
Which is worse that nothing, so, er, yeah.

Gift Cards and the Communist Way

[Mulletproof]

"Washington consumers can soon rest easy knowing that, for the most part, their gift certificates won't expire or be nibbled away by fees."

Awwwww, how cozy. But why is this being regulated by the state governemnt? Sure, expirations on gift certificates suck as do nibbling fees, but there is an easy solution to this-- DON'T FUCKING BUY THEM. Infact, if it pisses you off that much , don't buy anything from that company period. You'd be surprised how self regulating the marketplace is. Piss your consumers off and business goes elsewhere. If they keep buying, it's obviously not the issue some people think it is. Nobody is forcing you to buy a giftcard.

" The lack of standardization -- the absence of expiration dates, differing expiration dates, laws that don't specifically address gift cards -- in some cases has led to cat-and-mouse games."

OMFwortl33tehG!!! NO STANDARDIZATION!??!? WTF is up with the people trying to regulate this crap???? LAWS THAT DON'T SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS GIFT CARDS!??!? They are freakin certificates being offered by the store as a CONVINIENCE. The rules you buy under ARE THEIRS TO MAKE!!! Yes, that's what we need. Another state agency sucking more of my hard earned money to regulate a convinece nobody is being forced to buy and whose rules are normally written on or with the gift certificate. IT'S NOT EXACTLY THE LENGTH OF AN EULA AFTER ALL. And here's a revolutionary thought if you're an illiterate bastard-- ASK WHAT THE SALESPERSON WHAT THE RULES ARE!!!! GASP! I know. It's a tough world.

I'm sorry, regulating shit like this is nothing but a waste time, money and resources for people too lazy or stupid to do something as simple as voting with their wallet. If those rules aren't disclosed on the certificate or reciept itself, fine, hammer the company hard. But state regulation???????????? Come the fuck on. It's not that big of a problem. Ok, so 2 billion in certs went unclaimed last year. For the most part, that's called USER NEGLECT. IBM should service my HDD now because I didn't realize the warrenty ran out, right? RIGHT??? i'm sorry, but this is so seriously lame. this problem is so easily solved BY PAYING MORE FUCKING ATTENTION.

And lest we forget, this is also the same state government that wanted to tax coffee.

Re:Gift Cards and the Communist Way

[C-Diddy]

Amen Amen Amen. No one is compelled to buy a gift certificate. Laws like these just further absolve people from taking responsibility for themselves.

I will offer only one correction to your otherwise spot-on post: If I remember correctly, there was a ballot initiative in Seattle which would have imposed additional taxes on certain coffee beverages ("for the children", of course). The measure was defeated handily.

Re:Gift Cards and the Communist Way

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen Amen Amen. No one is compelled to buy a gift certificate. Laws like these just further absolve people from taking responsibility for themselves.

Um, this is another one of those posts that assume that a given "personal responsibility" situation exists in a vacuum. Sure, no one is compelled to buy a gift certificate, but there are two people involved here: The gift giver and the receiver. The receiver's role is involuntary. Your comment is fine for the giver, but if you receive a gift certificate or card, then are you the stupid one? Do you blame the victim here? Do you turn to your gift giver during the special occasion and say "Um, I don't accept that kind of money-wasting gift, please take your gift back to the store" (which probably cannot be done).

It's like the other thread about how people who drive while talking on a cell phone will deserve what they get so they should not be regulated. But wait a minute...what if they crash into you as a result of their stupidity? Why should you be dragged into the Darwin Award nomination with them? Sometimes we have to have rules because one person's actions not only affect their lives, but other innocent people's lives, you know.

Re:Gift Cards and the Communist Way

[Anonymous Coward]

You didn't buy the card, you were given it for free. You do not have the right in any sense to set the terms for a transaction that you did not particpate in.

If you don't like it, tell the person giving you these cards to get ones that don't expire, or tell him/her to stop giving them to you period.

How you analogize this to people driving with a cell phone, I don't know, but it is hardly relevant or even anywhere close to fitting this situation.

But since we're now dragged into that, lets get into semantics.

In accidents involving a cell phone, who's fault was it? The cell phone or the person driving with it?

Still don't know?

Who gets the ticket for causing the accident, the cell phone or the person using it while driving?

Therefore, wouldn't it be more logical to simply pass laws against drivers who are driving without paying proper attention to the road?

Re:Gift Cards and the Communist Way

[C-Diddy]

What are you talking about? The gift receiver is not entitled to additional benefits/protection, having paid nothing to Amazon in consideration for the card.

Just as the purchaser should be aware of the terms of the agreement, he/she should also communicate these terms to the receiver. If the receiver chooses to neglect his/her own responsibility to use the certificate/card, tough luck.

I recently agreed to assist a software company here in the Bay Area with the some-end user testing. In compensation, I received an e-mail gift certificate from Amazon. Right at the top, in BOLD type, is a "Spend By" date. It can't be missed. I've seen their paper certs as well, and the expiration date is always prominently featured. You're asking Amazon.com to take responsibility for a third party exchange for which it has no ultimate control. Completely unreasonable.

Your citation of cell phone use is completely irrelevant an nonsensical, as this is not a public safety issue.

More liberal usurping of fundamental rights.

[Anonymous Coward]

Companies have a fundamental right like you or I to sell products. Companies selling things that consumers agree to buy generates money for the company which is reinvested which will "trickle-down" to the the general populace. This is basic supply-side economics.

The consumers agreed to buy the product, the gift-certificates, and the exact attributes of the product are all clearly laid out for anyone to read. This is a mutual agreement. The state has NO right to interfere in fair and equal bargaining between the people. As mentioned, what's good for companies, is good for everyone. And this is obviously good for companies, because they would be doing it if the socialist, welfare-state government didn't prevent it in the name of "protecting" people, which is really just a cover up for their own agenda. People don't need to be protected except from external threats like terrorists and other similar threats/radicals(Marxists-Leninists/Maoists, etc.).

Re:More liberal usurping of fundamental rights.

[Anonymous Coward]

"The state has NO right to interfere in fair and equal bargaining between the people"

Read the comment above by psoriac, he made the point that he bought a card AND THEN SAW THE NASTY TERMS ON THE BACK.

There is no bargain there, no contract, no agreement by equals, no negotiation. He was suckered into a bad deal.

Retailers ignoring MA GiftCard law

[DJHeini]

My local paper actually ran an article today about MA's year-old gift certificate law, and how many local businesses still print gift certificates with expiration dates far earlier than the required 7 years, simply to "try to get customers to use them sooner". But they still say they'll honor them for the seven years...

Another silly law...

[nasor]

I'm just as against big companies screwing people as anyone else, but I don't really see the point of laws like this. If a company wants to say that gift cards expire after a year (or a month, or 10 years), what's the problem? So long as the customer knows about it when they purchase the gift card, it's just a mutually voluntary transaction between two consenting parties. I could understand a law requiring companies to explicitly warn customers about expiration dates when they buy the card, but it seems silly to say that a company shouldn't be able to impose restrictions on a gift card even if the customer agrees to it.

Also, keep in mind that a certain percentage of gift cards are sure to be lost or never used for some other reason. If they never expire, the company is basically accumulating an ever-growing debt that will probably never be called, but in theory could be at any time.

Re:Another silly law...

[donarb]

People who buy GIFT cards rarely buy them for themselves. If I receive a gift card from someone, I didn't buy it. Therefore, I didn't consent to any restrictions. Where is my protection?

Insightful? Mod this down.

Re:Another silly law...

[nasor]

People who buy GIFT cards rarely buy them for themselves. If I receive a gift card from someone, I didn't buy it. Therefore, I didn't consent to any restrictions. Where is my protection?

Uh...hello? It was bought by someone else and given to you as a gift. You don't have any rights with regards to what other people give you as presents. You might not like that your gift card has an expiration date, just like you might not like the color of a shirt that's given to you, but in both cases it's too freakin' bad. You don't deserve any legal protection against people giving you stuff that you don't like.

You'd think....

[jseitz]

...that they could it least keep their web servers up long enough for us to see what exactly they're doing... DAMN! Anyone got a mirror?

"The service you have requested is down for maintenance. Please try again later."

J

Rebates Next, please?

[Moosifer]

They really should have put this energy into legislating against the real scam currently being run by retailers and manufacturers, namely, rebates.

Re:Rebates Next, please?

[Technician]

They really should have put this energy into legislating against the real scam currently being run by retailers and manufacturers, namely, rebates.

I agree. Some retailers want a bit of everything including the UPC, box top, original sales reciept, etc. to make sure rebate breakage is high. They also list prices on the shelf in big print as after rebate, not the price you have to pay now which is in very fine print. (Best Buy) A couple times I put stuff back on the shelf as I was mis-lead to the price of some items and added the prices in my head, only to not have enough money at checkout to buy them. OOPS! How many people put stuff on a card and not notice the total is $20-40 than the big prices on the shelf indicated?

Other retailers do a much better job and provide the extra copy to mail and if you wish you could file online for the rebate instead of sending anything (good job Costco!). I bought some items from Costco that I didn't know had a rebate, but the paperwork generated at the register let me know about the rebate. The big price in the shelf is the price to pay and the amount of the rebate, not just the price after the rebate in bit print. I've never had an issue of late or missing rebates from Costco unlike some other retailers. You did remember to include the UPC and proof of purchase token didn't you?

Gift Cards sometimes better than cash...

[Aguila]

I sometimes prefer gift cards to cash, and some gift cards are worth at least as much as cash to me. Let's say that I am going to purchase $20 of camping equipment I want but don't really need, whether or not I have a gift card. If I purchase it using a gift card I received, I don't feel guilty about not spending my money more wisely, since I couldn't spend that money on anything else. So, in that sense a gift card could be more valuable to me, if it allows me to purchase something guilt free.

Similarly, while I am not married, assume that a husband receives either a $100 gift card to Best Buy or $100 cash, and that his wife has been getting tired of his spending all their money on tech toys. If he received the cash, he will be asking for trouble if he runs out to Best Buy, but with the gift certificate his wife will have no complaint. Therefore, the gift certificate might be more valuable to the husband.

Re:Gift Cards sometimes better than cash...

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, that makes no sense at all. The person who gives you the gift card had to spend money to get the card for you. This is exactly like someone giving you a pile of cash but with a contract saying you can only spend it at one store.

If you are so wasteful with money, why not just convert all your cash holdings into gift cards. Would you feel guiltless for squandering away your money held in gift cards now?

Just to make sure I understand.

[Anonymous Coward]

> It's funny how people are so concerned about
> legislating who can put what in another's rectum
> and what document they might have in their
> scrapbook, or for insurance purposes, under the
> guise of some notion of morality

So, essentially, what you're saying is that you're a faggot, right?

Re:Just to make sure I understand.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oddly enough I'm not which is why I don't concern myself what other men do to other men who aren't me.

is this even technically possible?

[Doppler00]

Let's assume that most gift cards use regular credit card like numbers on them for identification. After you manufacture several billion of these gift cards and place value on them, how do you expect to never run out of numbers? Assuming that the gift card can never expire that means that someone, somewhere has to maintain a database of billions of cards essentially forever. I think this could become costly and might be an unfair burden to some companies.

Why not just lengthen the expireation date on the gift cards to something like 2-5 years? If you haven't used a card by then, it's pretty much your fault for forgetting about it.

Re:is this even technically possible?

[Anonymous Coward]

...how do you expect to never run out of numbers?

Gosh, yes, that stupid finite numbering scheme of ours. Clearly the WA government needs to take the next logical step and authorize more numbers. It's just insane that mathematicians have ignored this problem so long. I mean, didn't they ever think of just adding 1 to their highest numbers? A finite number set indeed. Silly them, but hopefully the WA government will rescue us all.

In fact, they could impose a fine against people who refuse to acknowledge those extra numbers. We could even make them wear t-shirts with a slogan that says "in fine" -- maybe add a "ty" to stand for "thank you" -- you know, as a sarcastic comment. Heck, run that all together and you'd get a catchy name for the new numbers: infinety. Well, sounds kinda funny, so let's get rid of the 'e' so it's infinty. Or maybe infinity. Yeah, that sounds and looks better!

This comment brought to you by the letters UUID. Tune in tomorrow for more stupid Slashdot comments.

Re:is this even technically possible?

[Doppler00]

umm... I was saying running out of digits on a credit card. That is, they are designed to a certain specification where there is a limit to the credit card number. You couldn't honestly have a 100 digit credit card number, none of the equipment is designed for that. I also assume there is some waste in how credit card numbers are generated, similar to how IP addresses are handed out.

It's a valid concern, I'm sorry you didn't understand.

Breakage

[yintercept]

When there is sufficient competition, companies will end up rewarding the breakage to customers in the form of lower rates. The only time you don't see this happening is with monopolies. Rewarding customers with lower rates happens in the phone card business. You can buy phone cards for a penny and a half a minute when the cost of completing a call is greater than a penny and half because the phonecard company makes it money on the breakage.

Gift certificates are the same. Companies are often willing to sell gift certificates below their face value because they get short term interest on the cash and can count on a certain amount of breakage. Stupid laws demanding that breakage be given to the state, or other absurd bureaucratic rules, end up taking away the ability of companies to give such discounts.

Welcome to Capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

I personally think the shell company is a very smart move for Amazon and the best move for its investors and employees. If a gift certificate is going to be expired there is absolutely no reason why the monetary value should be handed to a government entity. The value of the certificate should flow back to the company and the employees/investors.

I'm not opposed to gift certificates having expirations. It keeps the books easier to manage by not allowing these mystery expenses to hang over your head indefinitely. It ultimately allows companies to report their revenues/expenses more accurately.

Re:Gift cards - possible reasons

[pwarf]

I don't usually give gift certificates, either, but I do know of a few good examples where they make sense:

• Introducing the recipient to a great restaurant. If given for a type of food the recipient likes, it shows thought and removes any possible guilt for "wasting" money. A restaurant recommendation is easy to forget or ignore because of uncertainty about cost; however, a gift card will very likely be used. This has the added benefit for the giver of increasing business to a restaurant they like. I think my family has done this a few times with great new restaurants that were struggling because of lack of exposure. Same general idea applies to other cool stores most people don't know about.
  
• Gas/grocery cards. Good for people who are struggling financially because it eliminates (temporarily) the worries of whether there will be enough money to put gas in the car to get to work or whether food can be bought, respectively.
  
• Restaurant certificates. Generally not a great idea, but good for people who would otherwise never spend money on themselves and don't need more stuff.
  
• Kids who can't be trusted with money Also, you can encourage them to spend it on, say, books instead of candy (or drugs, or whatever, depending on the kid in question).
  

However, overall I don't like gift certificates or even mandatory gift giving. My family often either gives Christmas gifts months early because they would be appreciated then, or months later because a really good gift wasn't convenient at the time. I regularly postpone my "birthday dinner" to weeks or months later because right before Christmas is typically inconvenient for me and my family and friends. My family is a bit odd that way, though.

Re:I wish this was FEDERAL!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Its a gift card, not cash. If you want the flexibility of cash, then GET CASH. If you didn't like the terms/conditions of the card, then you didn't have to take it.

Voluntary?

[Detritus]

See Contract of Adhesion.

The problem is that, in the absence of law, the company has the market power to dictate the terms of the contract, to the detriment of the customer. Many companies will abuse this power, and it often becomes "standard industry practice". That's why there are laws about consumer credit, installment loans, warranties, rental housing, etc.

Re:Voluntary?

[Anonymous Coward]

This makes sense for the government to get involved in some situation, like the ones you mentioned. People need housing, for one thing.

However, people don't need gift cards to survive. Now, wether you want to argue that not screwing over the consumer when it comes to the terms of a housing deal should be considered a moral, ethical, or whatever type of issue, it is absurd to suggest that telling a customer up front that the card expires in one year meets any definition of being immoral or unethical.

The average consumer can live perfectly fine without a gift card. A house? Thats compltely different. Don't make that type of analogy. Its plain silly and doesn't fit.

Re:Voluntary?

[nasor]

Companies are able to attach terms to contracts all the time, and there's nothing illegal about it. A contract of adhesion is when the only utility company in town tells you that if you want to buy electricity from them, then you are also required to sign up for some other service that you don't really want or need. It's intended to ensure that one person can't use their position of power to unfairly force someone else into accepting a contract that they wouldn't otherwise agree to. I hardly think that a customer buying a gift certificate is being 'bullied' by a store if they agree to an expiration date. If they don't like it, they're free to not buy the gift certificate without suffering any loss.

Buy Prepaid Credit Card instead

[saikou]

Much easier, though it will cost you extra $5 or so. But then the recepient gets to shop at ANY store. Or that $20 can be spent at the gas station (just go inside and ask for $20 worth of gas, the pump will shut off automatically once it reaches the limit ;) )

Government Gift certificates

[rossdee]

Doesn't the government issue its own Gift certificates, usable at any store nationwide, available in convenient amounts ($1 $5 $10 $20 $50 $100). For those interested in history, they have pictures of past presidents and founding fathers on one side.

These do not have any expiration date, and do not have any fees attached (but of course they are affected by inflation.)

Why not use these when its gift giving time?

Regulation

[DerWulf]

this is a fine example for everyone that won't believe that governments are passing laws just to pass laws. What the hell business do they have telling anyone that GCs can't expire. Normal fraud laws should prevent expiring GCs to be sold as if they were was no expiry ( like a little note that says: this gc will expire in x years) date anyways. Is it mandatory for washington state politicians to be brain amputated? Who thought that this was a good idea? Who gives them the right to do this?

Christmas a humbug, uncle?

[sanctimonius hypocrt]

The best thing I've found to do with gift money is buy something (tangible) for someone else.

What happens when the company folds?

[proggoddess]

My mother dislikes gift cards and gift certificates because if the store goes out of business, you lose that money. Would we now get to stand in line before they declare bankruptcy and try to get our money back?

If you're worried about store closings, expiration dates, etc. just send plain old cash as a gift. Cash is good anywhere for anything, doesn't lose value more than "normal" and doesn't expire.

Re:Gift cards - possible reasons

[lachlan76]

Also, you can encourage them to spend it on, say, books instead of candy

Last time I checked, I couldn't use book vouchers to save for new game/video card/mp3 player.

or drugs, or whatever, depending on the kid in question

Just to point this out (I'm 14), most teenagers aren't stoners. Alcohol, yes, but most of us don't do drugs. Or maybe it's just my school, but I heard before that there were a lot of drugs around here. Never been to another high school though, so I can't compare.

You have no idea what it's like to have gotten $70 for an AU$80 game, and wait for a birthday/christmas to get the last $10, to get $40 worth of book vouchers.

But People Gladly Pay Service Charges

[Wally Fenderson]

I worked for Hoyts Cinemas for uite a while in the late 90's. Just before Christmas one year, the company had decided to start charging a $1 surcharge on every $15 book of gift certificates. They didn't expire, but the customers had to pay the surcharge up front. I was amazed at how many people didn't even bat an eye at the fee, but I was more suprised at how many people complained about it, but still payed it!!! Related, but different: At the same time, the powers that be decided to sell discounted tickets in books of five for $25, plus the dollar service fee. How ever, we would only roll those out for a bout a month at a time, and they would only be good for a certain time period, ussually months away (ie books that were sold in December would be good for febuary and march). Apperently, some one in the home office didn't do their research, as we found out latter that any type of coupon that is paid for cannot have any time resrtictions in the state of New Hampshire (I'm in Maine).

Re:Amazon.com Am I the TYPICAL USER?

[lcsjk]

My last two e-Gift Cards from Amazon were used within the last month before the published expiration date.

USE IT AS TAX MONEY!

[lcsjk]

For two years the company has free use of the gift card money to obtain free interest. Sure there is some maintenance cost, but not much. After that time the money is unused and really does not belong to the company. For the benefit of all people, the money could best be used as other taxes to the state or federal government, although I don't think the federal gov is allowed to collect those kinds of revenue as tax. Perhaps the card agreement should have an opt-in/out clause of whether they want the expired card money to go to the corporation or the state.

Buyer Beware!

[3gm]

Whether you call it a gift card, gift certificate, or whatever, I cannot emphasize enough the need to choose your merchant carefully and read the fine print! I know in our area, restaurants come and go with great regularity. While a restaurant gift certificate can be a wonderful gift, there is some risk in holding on to it. My wife works for LL Bean and I think their approach to gift certificates is consumer friendly. They record who purchases the gift certificate at the time of sale. You can spend the certificates you bought at any time and in any way (e.g. web site, store, phone). You don't even have to have the original certificate in hand; they keep an online record of it. The only problem we've run into is when you give one as a gift, LL Bean's record still shows it as yours so it's possible for you to spend one you've given away! Still, all-in-all, it works very nicely. Of course, if they go bankrupt, we're going to be out some dough!

Explanation from a Delawarian

[Medievalist]

It works like this in Delaware: if you sell gift certificates, they can have an expiration date written on them, on no expiration date at all.

If there is no expiration date, the issuing company is forced to keep proper books; essentially, they can't count the money recieved for the certificate as pure profit, since products will have to be provided in return at some nebulous later date. Unredeemed certificates are effectively debts.

Companies hate that, because it complicates their bookkeeping, and because they'd like to profit from people failing to redeem a certificate before some arbitrary date.

Delaware essentially said, OK, we will let you have expiration dates (if simplifying your bookkeeping is that important to you) but if the date passes and the certificate is not redeemed, you must give all the money from sales of the certificate to the state. Obviously, this is auditable, and any company that issues certificates must be prepared to show state auditors their records of certificate sales.

In theory, this prevents companies from profitting by issuing certificates designed not to be redeemed. In practice, it results in nearly all certificates issued in Delaware being unlimited - that is, they have no expiration dates.

The system works reasonably well and consumers are very happy with it.

Moderators are fucking stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

If you hate fucking gift certificates, stop doing it, don't blame those who gave them to you. You're supposed to spend them, not fuck them.

-1 Troll?

Somebody please beat that moderator upside the head with a clue stick, because s/he obviously couldn't recognize humor. What a fucking dipshit. You want a troll? This is a troll. Fuck, this is even flamebait.

Slashdot is such a fucking waste of time anymore. Far too many of the "stories" that get accepted fit at least one of the following criteria:

• Old -- you could've read it hours, maybe days earlier by reading a conventional tech publication's site.
• Elitist to bash a demon (e.g., anti-Microsoft -- who cares if they deserve our derision, you don't have to base a site on that concept)
• Elitist to worship a hero (e.g., anything about Lessig or Linus gets published as if we're always going to give a shit -- not fucking likely)
• Unrelated to tech and geeks -- sure, "air" is on topic because we all breath, but we don't need to discuss it here. What's next, a Recipes section?

I think I'm going to take Slashdot off my bookmarks list at last. Fuck this shitty site. And for the next dumb-ass with moderation points, this isn't "off topic," because it's directly related to a thread discussing gift certificates which -- gosh! -- IS THE FUCKING TOPIC.

CA going backwards

[John Q. Public]

I was at a Safeway grocery store recently where they sell lots of cards for other stores such as BN, and the teller let us know that as of January 1 the oh-so-helpful government had killed the law that provided similar protection to California residents. All gift cards/certs sold before 1/1/04 were valid forever, but after that date they expired as listed on the card.

It's a pity our legislators are watching out so carefully for the consumer's rights...

greedy bastard

[Anonymous Coward]

why dont you just take whatever somebody has been kind enough to give you and BE HAPPY that you got a gift?