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Mono Project Releases Version 1.0
theblackdeer writes "Just poking around the go-mono.com Mono website; it's now the multi-colored mono-project.com. Even better, it updated before my eyes to include the 1.0 release. Screenshots are (slightly) updated, too. Mono 1.0 includes the Mono Develop IDE (based on SharpDevelop, I believe). Download now and start your GTK# engines!"
Alliante adds "You can download the Release Notes and the Packages on their website."
From the FAQ:
The Mono project has also sparked a lot of interest in developing C#-based components, libraries and frameworks
Yes it has. In our company's roadmap, we considered C# and Mono, but the controversial elements of their licensing (ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and Windows Forms subsets) gave us pause until we researched it further. Most of it is covered under the ECMA/ISO and the other technologies developed on top of it.
Looks like the Mono strategy is to work around the patent issues by using a different technique that retains the API but changes the mechanism.
Sigs cause cancer.
mono makes your throat sore. you get it from kissing girls. actually i guess that's not going to be a concern around here.
forgive the interruption.
A open source RAD evironment sounds like it could have a huge impact on the number of apps that could be rolled out.
Not so much for the enterprise market, but also for the 'shareware' class applications. Most of my Windows specific applications are programs that are from very small development houses or shareware products. (I love to support a small shareware author!) . I use open source when prudent, but I also love to use a nice simple tool that even if it costs $15-$20 bucks to a pay-pal account, is money well spent in my opinion. Maybe Linux will start to attract this development base with Mono.
Another question, I have a pro version of C# I picked up at staples last year. Anyone know how realistic is it for me to build an application in Windows using my copy of C# and compile it and run it on mono?
Go Mono, Go! I hope you infect everybody!
(at least I'm not back in college anymore, where they would've probably hauled me away in straight jacket for chanting that...)
[Now, I'm off to lift my le... Um, visit... at another place.]
This is great!
It's been a while since I've had a good look at Mono- and things really seem to have advanced since! Way to go guys!
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
likes Modest Mouse.
Anyone here use Muine, is it better than xmms?
If my answers frighten you, stop asking scary questions.
Wonder if that can be run in mono..
.NET terriarium is damn coolb Index= 6&tabId=42
installing to find out.
I have been playing in GTK getting sprites and such working, but would like to use this for more portability..
http://www.windowsforms.net/default.aspx?ta
Check it
anime+manga together at last.. in real time.
It's been 3 years and a ton of code. Great work. Let's get those apps rolling out.
I now await the FUD machine.
The appeal of RAD Languages like VB and C# is nice because you can make a quick utility for a project or novilty without having to sell your first born child. Only draw back is, as with VB, script kiddies with basic knowledge can go and make viruses. Is this going to pose a threat to the *nix community who is known for it's inability for a quick RAD?
I'm cheering for the Mono guys but I don't see how they can avoid being also-rans in the compatibility race.
...it enables things like calling Ruby from C# and vice versa.
I think someone is working on a Ruby to IL compiler, but I failed to successfully Google it...
The Army reading list
- when he need to consult microsoft when developing it further...
As has been pointed out ad tedium in various Java-related discussions on /. - Java's early reputation for poor performance may have been
justified in the 1.0 and 1.1 days, but modern Java VMs employ
sophisticated JIT compilers which gives it comparable performance to
natively compiled languages like C++, and easily matches .NET's CLR
performance. Java's bytecode and .NET's bytecode are not that different, the main differences are in the APIs.
Which brings us on to the second justification for .NET over Java, native GUIs, which is even weaker. Java-Gnome does the same thing as
Mono's GTK bindings, offering exactly the same GUI abilities, and SWT offers a truely
cross-platform GUI API with a native look and feel on each platform it
runs on.
But C# hasn't exactly exploded on the Windows desktop yet either so I suppose it's premature.
For those looking for an IDE, try out MonoDevelop 0.5. It doesn't have a gui builder, but has code-completion(intellisense), class browser, project management, etc... It's a port of Sharpdevelop.
I'm cheering for the Mono guys but I don't see how they can avoid being also-rans in the compatibility race.
I'm still a little skeptical about using a Microsoft-owned technology on Linux, but perhaps this is just what we need to get ISV's on board. I'm going to guess that the "Mono ABI" is going to be less of a moving target than the "Linux ABI" has been. That would be very ironic.
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
While people can debate about this, I do think it's something important for linux. It says that no matter what one company can do to try to make their development platform closed and proprietary, the open source community can retort back with their open standards. Yeah, this is just an attempt at cloning yet another microsoft product by the open source community, but when the world uses microsoft and they're distributing this for free, it hardly is as bad as one software giant cloning say...word perfect. I haven't tried mono yet, but when the day arrives when I can run a windows app and linux app without jumping through wine I'll be a happy linux user.
.NET as something positive.
I really think operating systems have become a comodity anyway. To me, linux, windows, and mac don't mean much but the software that runs on them. Sure, making different versions like mozilla does works now, but you can't expect companies like adobe to ever do the same. I think running things off the same compiled code is where software should be headed. This would make the argument of not being able to switch to linux because of lack of supported applications moot.
This is the first time I've ever thought of
I've been looking for a good way to write a crossplatform GUI for an app I'm working on. Java is not a good choice for a variety of reasons, so Mono is looking pretty tempting right now. Since Mozilla-The-Platform hasn't taken off as well as it could, Mono may wind up being the best option for a totally Free Software approach to cross-platform work. On the other hand, wxWidgits is a great toolset as well, and I wouldn't be surprised if they get C# language bindings for the library.
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
oops.
I was thinking about using Java until you posted. I will now use Mono. Thank you for helping me decide what platform to use.
What else would you expect!?!
The programmers would be ( and should be ) busy coding
Given that my main OS is Windows (sorry), is there anything like this for it?
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
I really was disappointed when I found out this uses .NET, because the most recent .NET framework doesn't install properly on Crossover Office yet.
Is there any way to get an app like this running on linux? I'd like to be able to archive my gmail account and have a local copy for those rare days when I don't have internet access.
I suppose two colours, blue and white, technically counts, but.. it's got nothing on Zombo.
Bitchslapped. Neat.
that's like flaming gcc for conforming to the ANSI standard... The C# language definition is an ECMA standard.
Read the actual blog post, it has nothing to do with getting microsoft's permission to develop Mono. All it says is Miguel doesn't think forking Mono away from the ECMA standard is a good idea.
Too many people will get hung up over the Microsoft angle and notions that mono is out to wipe out all other development toolkits. This is nonsense. What the mono team has done is upended a Microsoft strategy - that Windows is differentiated because of the .Net platform. Now we have a level playing field on top of all of the other inherent advantages of open source.
Bravo and thanks mono team.
One possibility is Netbeans, which I kind of like. It's free and super-easy to mount against existing code bases for debugging (Mount filesystem, point at source, done! Then you can attach to a VM for remote debugging).
Another possibility is IntilliJ, which a lot of people seem to like a lot - especially if they do not like Eclipse. It does cost money.
Then there is also the Big Mac Daddy of IDE's, JBuilder. That can cost a lot if you want the advanced features, but I don't think it's much if you want the basics.
You may notice a common theme here - all sorts of Java IDE's, and unlike other apps they all actually run under Linux. That's because unlike common perception Java desktop apps can work very well, and as all these are written in Java you get the benefit of being able to use them in Linux.
I do also run Eclipse under Linux and it works fine - I'm using Redhat (company standard).
However, even with all the IDE's you can still get far just with a good text editor and Ant, a very power build tool for Java.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The gmcs compiler is a demonstration of generics support that you can use right now, at least in a prototyping capacity. The mono team is watching the ball.
I'm probably feeding a troll, but I'll assume you are sincere.
.NET is deployable on any platform with a CLI, like Mono. Nobody pays Microsoft anything, though it doesn't put them at the disadvantage that Java would.
Mono was developed because Miguel thought Mono was kinda cool, and because he could. Beyond that, though, there are a few other important issues.
Most importantly, Mono is vital to the future of Linux and other open-source projects. This was a blatant attempt by Microsoft to reign in wandering developer mindshare. Also, it is part of their strategy to bring the application space back from the web, to the desktop-- Microsoft's desktop.
Also, although most geeks realize that Microsoft is not to be trusted, and that generally they produce shoddy (or downright dangerous) software, most of the rest of the world doesn't understand the danger. So, for a lot of manager-types (you know the ones, knuckles dragging the ground, sloped brow furrowed in concentration while parsing simple sentences, signs your paychecks with an 'X'), they see this as "Microsoft's next big direction." Many will choose to follow that direction, because they love Power Point.
And finally, there's the issue of choice. Java is Okay, but there are issues with it. C# has a different set of issues. Both suck. Both are great. Both cower before the awesome power of LISP. Different developers like different things in a language. Some languages suit our personalities better than others. Me, I'm a LISP and Perl kinda guy. The guy sitting next to me likes C and PHP.
There are potential pitfalls with C#, but at the moment that is all they are: potential. And in most cases, those problems are perceived, and not actual. Now
But ultimately our goal should be to produce damned good software, not just destroy Microsoft; we should concentrate on building up, not tearing down.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Look, mono have cloned an enviroment & language whose direction is steered by Microsoft.
.NET.
.NET framework *NOW*, add features and support for things that the Windows .NET does not have. But also bring the extended version to Windows itself.
.NET becomes the real one, not the MS one.
This is a problem, Microsoft is not nice.
Microsoft can take it into a direction where MS holds patents & IP protection (if it doesn't already which is very unlikely). Mono will either have to follow and lock its user in, or go in a separate direction and abandon any pretensions at cloning MS
What I think they should do is embrace and extend the the
That way the MONO implementation of
Someone is also working on a Java->Ruby bridge here.
Once they figured out the CLR is really meant to run C# apps and they would have to drop interesting Ruby features, they probably gave up.
BY "Supports other languages", the CLR really means "Supports migrating other language developers to C#".
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
it's better than liking Mickey Mouse.
Don't buy Disney until they fire the Rat
The greatest risk of the Mono project is Microsoft stepping in and filing suit against the project for using its API w/o a license. Doesn't anyone else see this? Why was Mono ever started to begin with? All you Mono developers are doing is putting $$$ into microsoft's pocket!!!
Actually, the majority of the API is covered by the public EMCA specifications. Microsoft specifically made it impossible (very very difficult) to sue someone for that when they made the standards public. See the mono and microsoft faq for details. The fact that mono is perfectly legal doesn't change the fact that they may be putting $$$ into microsoft's pocket though.
Didn't you see the reply to your original comment? You can already try out generics in mono TODAY.
While mono is better overall, Portable.NET has better WindowsForms support. It sucks to have 2 open source projects that at their core want the same thing. If the open source community wants to compete with the fast releases of the Microsoft .NET , they need to be more unified.
The nifty thing about this is that Mono has the potential to be bigger and better than the .NET Framework, and we don't actually *need* .NET to make good use of Mono.
The way I see it, Mono could end up gaining more market share than Microsoft's implementation, and as long as we don't tie ourselves to the Windows-specific APIs, there's not a whole lot Microsoft could do about it!
...However, the Java runtime systems commonly available on Linux lack the performance that customers demand, and Java applications do not conform to the Linux GUI look and feel.
The question I ask about the above is what the heck is the "Linux GUI look and feel"
Last time I ran Linux (and the mono screenshots show this) there are mutliple Linux "look and feels". KDE, GNOME, GNUStep, Windowmaker, E, etc are all different to some degree, and some of the differences are major.
Do they mean Java does not conform the look and feel of the Window manager in use at runtime?
I have been digging through the documentation, but haven't found anything on whether 1.0 supports power pc. We run AIX on ppc chips. I tried to get Mono to run on this platform a few months back without any real success. Does anyone close to the project know if this is working now?
Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein
I would love to be proven wrong and shown my fears of M$ pulling the rug out from Mono is unfounded and totally paranoia. Psychologists have a saying, "the predictor of future behavior is past behavior." If that statement is true, it would suggest the fear of M$ misbehaving is a matter of when and not if.
I also run ed2k_gui (the Java frontend to overnet). I cannot run both of these apps at the same time if I want my system (1.2 GHz, 256 MB RAM) to be usable.
If all I cared about was platform independence, Mono wouldn't matter. (Java covers that very well.)
.Net and Mono further promise language interoperability. That means I'll be able to blend 3rd parties' libraries without caring what the source language is, and take a serious foray into Eiffel without the expense of backing out, if it doesn't really deliver what I want, or if it threatens to become orphaned. With luck, 3rd party compilers for the .Net CLI will work fine to the Mono CLI. Sweet!
But
And still not worry whether it's OSX, WinXX or *nix.
For me, this is all about choice, (minimizing the risk of a little fling) and leverage.
"Inquiring Minds Want to Know!"
...to a lower value, such as 16, 24 or 32. Does the program still run? If so, stop whining and do that.
I still firmly believe that whilst good on the desktop, Java's real benefits lie on the Server Side, which is where it is mostly used (J2EE etc).
I am NaN
Anyone know of a mirror site?
http://www.reeb.freeserve.co.uk
Wonder what the Dashboard developers will have to say about the 'Dashboard' feature in the upcoming Tiger?
I have been a pretty vocal detractor in the mailing lists about the lackluster attention paid to the OS/X port, but this release is really a huge milestone for the team, and they deserve a round of applause.
Kudos to Miguel, Nat and the rest of the team for getting this shipped. The Linux port is rock solid.
Now, if I could only get monoDevelop to run under OS/X without having to jump through endless hoops, I would be a happy man...
How fitting: the Mono logo is a profile shot of the retarded cellmate of D.R and Quinch in "The Complete D.R. & Quinch". What was his name again? Pulger or something? -Bjørn
so I never notice any app asking for it to be installed.
This Mono 1.0 release seems to be developer-oriented. Will they (or someone else) be creating smaller runtime packages which only include the stuff necessary to run applications?
It would be nice if there were an easy install package for Win32, too. This might seem pointless on the surface, but Microsoft.NET won't install on all Windows systems due to deliberate barriers, plus Microsoft's distribution does not come with GTk# and so forth.
I'm installing the full release on my main system, but it'd be nice to have a smaller runtime package that I can put on my other boxen to run any apps I create. Perhaps in a few hundred years Debian will have a runtime package which can be depended on by mono apps without having to pull in the whole development environment. (mono-runtime vs. mono-devel, both depending on mono-common)
(I see a page about the Mono runtime but it's talking about the runtime portion of the project rather than a specific runtime distribution.)
If I'm going to develop .NET applications, I'm going to use the Microsoft tools and platform to do it. Part of being a good developer is choosing the right tools and platforms for your applications. .NET is a cluster-f*** at best and I wouldn't want to polute my UNIX environments with it. I'm seeing too many of these open source projects trying to copy what Microsoft does. The open source community should be leading, not following!
I'm quite interested in Mono and GTK#, but the documentation seems at first glance to be... non-existent. Are there any tutorials explaining how to get started with Mono and write the GUI equivalent of "Hello world"?
is that using C# implies accepting being led by Microsoft (after all, the Mono guys aren't innovating, they're just copying). If you have no problem following Microsoft, why on earth would you be using Linux and not Windows? For the cost of a licence?
.NET+Windows? Why on earth wouldn't I follow the leader instead of the copycats? Does the Mono team have ANY plans to innovate beyond what Microsoft is doing or is using Mono+Linux always going to imply being second-best?
Just exactly how is Mono+Linux any better than
...the source code for the java class libraries comes with all Java 2 SDK's, and the source code for the JVM and Hotspot JITs is available for download from sun..
.Net on the otherhand is the one that is not open, true, parts of the C# spec have been submitted to ECMA as standards, but the cast majority of the platform is under tight microsoft control (and covered by numerous patents).
I know this because to run Java on FreeBSD you have to compile it from source, which you have to download from sun independantly and then patch.
Care to give me the URL of the C# compiler and the CLR source code? No? That's becuase they exist only in your imagination.
I am NaN
GJC is the cure to all mono induced ailments.
Might java/Eclipse be the solution?
People are legitamately concerned about the legality of this project.
Calling mono perfectly legal when mono stands on shaky legal grounds is a disservice to the community. Not only is "Windows.Forms" a protected term belonging to Microsoft but the entire toolkit is based on patent-protected APIs etc. Why hasn't Novell asked Microsoft to issue a statement protecting Mono yet? Since this will be a Java-killer when the open-source crowd embraces it, I would think that this would be the least they could do.
Until I see that Microsoft (the owner of the IP) won't try to sabotage this product I will try to get as many open-source people I can to steer clear so their hard-work won't be coopted or made illegal.
One huge benefit to Mono on the desktop is that it acts as, and for all intents and purposes is, just a normal language/platform for Linux. Exactly like C/Python etc. You install the RPM, or compile the source, or get the whole thing pulled down as a depdenency from yum/apt for some third party program you really wanted to run in the first place. It's there in the background as any other package on your system. When you run a Mono GTK# program from your GNOME menu or the shell, you can't really say just from looking at it that it's a Mono program and not standard C.
/usr, it's just one of 12 languages and development kits I've got installed on my system). You're not going to get Java with your distribution. You can't pull down Java as a dependency for some other app. You don't get Java apps in RPM/whatever format in the first place. You've got to know what the heck a classpath is, etc.
Java on the hand, goes out of its way to jump in your face at every opportunity. Java is completely unlike everything else on your system. Java spews its shit all around your system even when you install it from a package (what the hell entitles Java to a toplevel directory in
Then you've got your Ant build systems, Jar packages, and tons of other stuff completely alien to Linux. The few Mono apps I've compiled have been the standard "./configure, make, make install". Long story short: Mono will will the desktop because end users don't have to know what Mono is in the first place.
It's like deja vu all over again.
I'm not much of a C coder; sorry if this is a stupid question but I'm trying to gather information to pass on to folks who will know what to do with it.
.NET. The code basically talks via the device via USB, does some math, and plots results on the screen (in XY and polar plot format).
A ham radio hardware project I'm working on is driven by sofware written under MS C++
We want to make the software available under Linux, but the author is a Windows guy and can't undertake the port, so we're looking for someone to help us out.
Apart from the obvious issue of the USB driver interface, is it reasonable to expect that Mono would allow us to build this app under Linux with relatively minor changes, or is porting still likely to be a significant undertaking? (I realize it takes a lot more detail to get a definite answer; I'm just looking for guidance on whether it's worth considering using Mono vs. essentially rewriting the code).
And if you need a GUI builder you can always use glade-2 which ships with most distributions. I've designed practically the entire user interface for my little app, WoodPusher, in glade, and have been writing the code using MonoDevelop. Eventually there will be a new form designer for MonoDevelop which will not be based on glade at all, but in the meantime, glade gets the job done.
Celebrate the finer things in life
That would be "coincidental" and not "ironic". There is no irony involved.
Sorry, my error, I want to say
"This is why I think Microsoft is a very bad thing"
- Slayer_X
http://www.slayerx.org/
Lima
All the Microsoft developers are secretly rewriting MS Office in C#.NET.
As soon as the Mono guys finish the hard part of the Linux port, MS will abandon Windows, fork Linux and start selling MS Linux bundled w/ Mono (and of course, Firefox with the new IE theme), and MS Office for Linux.
It's just crazy enough to work.
I think the Mono project is great, and I encourage them to keep up the great work.
.NET isn't included in most of the Windows versions that individuals have at home, so to actually use a C# app, they would have to download it, and it is rather large.
Having said that, I have to say I have various concerns about it as a development framework. Many of them have been raised by various individuals--e.g., Microsoft breaking compatibility and leaving Mono as a dead framework.
However, something I've never really seen addressed is whether or not C#/CLI really is a useful framework for developing desktop apps. This is something that's often advocated by C# adherents, but is it really true?
Java, on the other hand, is on many home systems. Developing in C++ or something like that is also more feasible because it compiles to a binary that doesn't require a separate interpreter, VM, JIT compiler, or whatever.
For all of the talk about C#/CLI, I don't really see it being a viable desktop app solution because of the overhead. And, as people have noted, Longhorn seems to be moving to a different development framework altogether, that looks more like XUL.
I don't mean to sound like a troll, I really admire Mono. But whenever I think of writing a C# app, I end up thinking "who, really, would actually use this?"
Sometimes I think that C#/CLI is hype that MS's worst critics as well as greatest supporters just happened to believe. The fear I have, I guess, is not just that MS will break compatibility, but they will drop it altogether because it failed.
The thing that bothers me about .NET and even the ECMA subset is that although it can be cross-platform, it is full of Windows-isms.
.NET.
.NET on Linux, won't it be, in essence, making Linux a lot more like Windows?
For example,
Console.WriteLine does not seem to imply that standard output could be redirected to another source like another program.
Or the COM integration lets a lot of existing Windows technologies influence the design of
The main entry point for Graphical apps is still called WinMain in the exe.
Even if it is possible to use
I like the idea of writing code once and being able to run it on multiple platforms. MONO takes us a half a step closer to that. I do have concerns, however. Primarily the screwy patent laws bother me.
The SCO fiasco, which was funded both directly and indirectly by Microsoft, tells me that litigation is probably going to be Microsoft's weapon of choice in the not too distant future. I have expressed these concerns in previous MONO discussions and always get a lot of replies telling me that Microsoft "won't" do this because of this reason or that reason. What I have never got was a reply telling me why Microsoft CAN'T to this.
So, given the fact that SCO has shown that litigation can and is being used as an anti-competitive tactic and given the fact that Balmer not so long ago said, when referring to open source that Microsoft would "vigorously enforce its IP rights", why should I feel good about the MONO project?
Would some lawyer type please tell me why Microsoft CAN'T prevail in a lawsuit over patent violations when the time is right for them to strike? I'm not trolling. I really want to be able to use MONO and feel good about it. But until I know that I'm not putting Linux at risk I simply can't support MONO.
Help me out here Please!
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
One of the problem with Shareware (or cripple ware) and open source is that it's generally just as easy to distribute the shareware version as the complete version, so it only takes one person to purchase a product and give it to everyone.
I think this impacts open source game production because, frankly, it's hard to find a way to give the source to the community and still ensure some kind of revenue stream.
What I figured is, why can't someone release a game, GPL all the source code, but claim that the artwork and level data are copyrighted and, please, feel free to give your buddies a copy, but don't use the art/leveldata in a commercial release
I think that, while not nesseccarily in keeping with the free software ideology, it is in keeping with the open source philosophy (and yes, bare with me, i know that free is not cost free and open is not simply saying 'check out my code')
By providing my source code to whomever wants it, I make it easier for the next guy not to have to reinvent the wheel. But the specific game data (leveldata, game sprites) are what makes this game unique (if only at the surface level) and are useless to a programer who wants to use my code to write his own game.
Such a license would allow one to release a Shareware version of the game (akin to Doom or Commander Keen, where you get an episode, not some software that expires over time and does half of what you want) which allows for commercial distribution, and a full version which the author can sell.
Of course, maybe that makes the author a capatalistpropriatarypigbastard, but i'd like to hear feedback on the idea...
The Neo-Bohemian Techno-Socialist
Mono is delivered in v1.0 with Dashboard, the proactive "personal assistant" which shows the associated info, of all types, about the entities (people, places, info objects) you're focused on. With the right GUI, this will depose the desktop, filing system, and search engines now haystacking our needles. Where can I get a client for my smartphone?
--
make install -not war
If its labeled Novell I won't use it anyways.
Probarly because my school had Novell security wich was crap.
And fustrating because nothing would work the way its suposed to.
dont judge my bad english. it just sucks
Hivemind harvest in progress..
This whole project seems to be aimed at a noble goal, cross-platform compatibility, but with weak implemention. It is still interpreted. It still requires you to clunk around this huge interpreter and all associated libraries. Its still slow. They need to concentrate on targeting native machine code compilation and execution. I like the fact that java (because of GCJ) can finally be natively compiled, which will definately increase its adoption among serious developers.
There's a GNU project at DotGNU that has already created a runtime that supports a large portion of Windows Forms, yet nobody seems to know about it. Why?
The right to protest the State is more sacred than the State.
When will Mono ditch Boehm's conservative GC for a precise GC? How much of Mono's C code depends on the existing conservative GC?
stands for Epstein-Barr Virus. not a nice thing. can cause mononucleosis, but also some kinds of cancer
SHE does throw dice.
With all this talk about SCO/Linux and *potential* licensing issues with Microsoft and .NET, Miguel/Novell should put their money where their mouth is. Start offering indemnification. It's just that simple. Anything else is bullocks.
If Mono ever does really take off, Microsoft can clip its wings off in an instant. You are insane if you want to create a Linux desktop based on Microsoft technology. I know Java isn't ideal, either, but how about Python? If they had spent 1/10th the time working on a Python IDE and Gui builder as they spent redoing Microsoft's stuff, we would be much better off.
Mono means the have a single server, otherwise it would be called Duo.
Do you folks actually believe Microsoft didnt see this coming? All this talk of how Mono is going to overtake .NET is silly. Microsoft KNEW open source developers would write MONO. They anticipated it. They hoped for it.
You guys all too often underestimate Microsoft. MONO is part of MICROSOFT'S plan, and its likely a plan to kill Linux.
Don't underestimate the minds at a zero to mutil-billion dollar company.
Me, I'm a LISP and Perl kinda guy. The guy sitting next to me likes C and PHP.
wow. THAT's tolerance! Doesn't he ever throw things at you, or vice versa?
But those screenshots are reather ugly... The poor font sizes, the poor fonts, the blah color scheme...
...however the grandparents post still incorrectly claims that you cannot download and build the Java Runtime Environment, which is categorically untrue.
.net.
Re-reading my post I think i made it clear that in no way was Java open, but neither was
One thing that bothers me, reading the shared source license it seems to insinuate that you cannot use the source for commercial purposes or create derivative works of it, so how is that open? If I am wrong please point that out (the license is linked from the main page).
I am NaN
Me, I'm a LISP and Perl kinda guy.
That's good. The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. You're on your way.
An API, like an ABI, is a mythical thing with no physical existence which can't be copyrighted. The code on one or both sides of the interface can be, of course, but a clean-room re-implementation is always possible. I think that has been established by the courts over many years, dating back to the original IBM PC bios code, and involving Unix etc. Darl McBride is going to fall flat on his face over this very issue, in another context.
No they can't. read the FAQ
Please. This has been promised time and time again. CORBA, XML etc. (these are more IPC mechanisms, but the situation is identical)
Doing manual binding to a VM or what have you (which is what's going on here) is ultimately going to fail the minute a language changes or a new language emerges. Unless you want to restrict yourself to the small semantics representable by *all* languages, it's not going to work. Once you get to that subset of functionally, all languages *are* the same. Just slightly different syntax. Which is usually just a modification to Algol block-style with C's syntax.
The only true solution is by algebraically representing semantics in some manner. Such as what TUNES is attempting to do. Once semantics are mathematically represented, then you can use your favorite language to your heart's content and not worry about loss of semantics or restricting yourself to a subset of all common languages. In other words, you can use call/cc style functions in ML/Scheme and not worry about C programs screwing things up.
But, IMO, this is all one big pipe dream. I'll believe it when I see it.
wow. THAT's tolerance! Doesn't he ever throw things at you, or vice versa?
I bet they gang up on a guy behind them that likes Fortran and Prolog.
I've been around for a little while. And I have to ask myself. If I were Bill Gates. How would I draw developers away from open source development?
Great job on Mono... But i'm not touching it.
Last one in jail is a fascist.
I would like new tools to get some critical mass in the desktop app space, but I don't see any, really. Even MS, to my knowledge, does not make/give/sell a significant desktop app that uses the CLR. In some ways, the issue has not moved beyond the K&R days.
The linux landscape is changing, its going mainstream, and there are a lot linux users who don't like that. I must humbly suggest to such people that you cannot do anything about it, and you should therefore either accept the reality or start moving to another system where you can feel more "l33t".
I used to ignore the morons who used to go around omninously saying "you will be assimilated" several years ago when Windows was at its zenith. Now that it is in decline, I ignore your "reality" too. The glory of the GNU/Linux system is that it is pretty immune from software fads like Java and .Net. Will they take GNU/Linux
over? Not until someone writes
a kernel and system stack using them (which will be never). You can run them alright. They might
even have their place for some applications.
More power to those who
contribute to their free software implementations.
But at the end of the day, I can install as many
or as few packages as I want on my Gentoo system,
and be happily oblivious to the progress Mono
is making on replicating Microsoft's terrible
software, bug for bug.
I can hack C and Lisp without having to bloat my machine with the latest virtual programming environment du jour. Try that with Windoze. I still feel l33t.
an ill wind that blows no good
50MPH / 2 = 25MPH
Havoc Pennington recently stated that he also sees legal issues by using MONO technology in GNOME read here and here.
There are another few comments made by Havoc Pennington this year but I wasn't able to find the links. So you people should better be sceptical by using MONO technology because MONO is moving in the gray area here and is probably becomming a big legal issue.
I hope this happens pretty damn soon. All this MONO hype is pissing me off already. I don't want Linux to mature into the next Windows. Right now everything is copied from Microsoft so I ask myself why not using Microsoft Products in first case and forget about Linux and GNOME.
My question for the slashdot community is how do I start? Are there prerequesite languages I should learn beforehand? What books/sites should I look into for guidance? What sort of things can I do to just "practice", as I imagine that I can't just read a book and write an app? Anyone...?
eric http://www.ericdfields.com/
But I don't understand the whole compatibility issue. I can't recall one single attempt at cross-platform application development that has had any thing close to widespread acceptance. .NET is a good idea, Mono needs to be a better .NET, not a cross platform compatible environment. Mono needs to address RAD development under Linux as application programming under Linux is the big knock right now. I think Mono has as much of a chance to be successful as Open32 helped developers target both Windows and OS/2
You can implement scheme on the JVM too - read this paper comapring the compilation of Scheme to C, the JVM, and the CLR! It was put on 6/16/2004 so is pretty recent - the link came from here
.Net executables yielded no perforamnce gain over just leaving the executable in IL!
.Net VM was found at this time to be generally slower than the JVM.
.Net - Scheme.Net is still pretty new, and Hotdog is not really done yet either.
One interesting result is that precompiling
Also, the
I couldn't really find a complete Scheme for
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
It sounds as if I get some sort of virus by installing this. Couldn't they choose a different name to use?
I tried to download it, and the download link did not work.
Also I don't see a Debian package, nor a Linspire one. They also claim to have had VB.NET support, but I was not able to access it in previous versions. I stuck a fork in it, and it was not done yet.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
Me, I'm a LISP and Perl kinda guy. The guy sitting next to me likes C and PHP.
That would be me. By the way, there really should be PHP#. It would do anything C# does the same way C# does it, but you have to wrap the app in an <?> tag.
And while we're at it, we should add HTML#, TXT# and BMP#, the latter being a two-dimensional image language that makes Befunge look simple. The corresponding IDE would be Paint#.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
This was a blatant attempt by Microsoft to reign in wandering developer mindshare. Also, it is part of their strategy to bring the application space back from the web, to the desktop-- Microsoft's desktop.
.NET's IL?
.NET in those terms at all. Their main draws of technology will be Indigo, Avalon, WinFS, Aero Glass, and so on. That's what they plan to draw people to Windows with. .NET is more of the basic infrastructure that we now all get to benefit from because of a port to Linux.
If that's true, why did Microsoft make the specs public, create a public standard for the language, and create a public Common Language Specification so that anyone can compile anything to
I honestly think they're not thinking of
I admit it - flamebait and I still clicked on it >_
I don't know about the other versions, for I just installed mono 1.0 for OSX and it does not include MonoDevelop.
On Linux I installed 0.92 a while ago and it didn't include monodevelop either (I'm talking about the binaries). Today there are no binary distros available on the monodevelop.org site; and building monodevelop on OSX can be pretty hard.
So please, can we have an OSX binary distribution of monodevelop PLEASE?
Go hug some trees.
Great! Does this mean that all new viruses originally written for Microsoft .Net will also be able to infect Linux machines running Mono?
I'll admit I did too. I also had a little love-making session with my hand while I was there.
> Almost all of mono is derived from the ECMA
> documents, which also state rather clearly (with
> formal waivers signed by Microsoft) that anybody
> is free to create their own implementation of
> those standards.
C# and the CLR are licensed under RAND (Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory) licensing. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's free. They could allow anyone to use the ECMA standard C# for one penny and it would be RAND. But placing any cost on Mono would essentially kill it as an open source project since open source depends on free copying and modification.
Its off topic, politically incorrect, and potentially offensive, but Ximian Gnome really needs a new label.
The current logo looks like some sort creature out of christian mythology getting in postion to prep himself for some "alternative romatic activities".
Is mono so focused on MS that it optimizes for IE?
Or, perhaps, that's "mono" as in "monoculture," the bane of bio-geneticists and system security experts everywhere.
Now I regret adding the [OT]...
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
Bart: True or false? You can get mono from riding the monorail.
Homer: False! No wait, maybe its true...
It has been a binary install for win32 since about 0.3, but are you referring to a *runtime* install? If so ~ there are no such offerings. But I can report mono installs (and uninstalls) on my win2k box fine.
peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup
I take some interest in Mono as I am not proud to admit C# is my strongest language/skill.
.. "spoiled" - in all aspects of the word.
For 6 months I've been trawling trying to find something that beats MS Visual Studio and C# in terms of RAD.
Now this is not a flamer but just a cry for help.
Can anyone recommend me a good RAD + IDE Development tool/environment for Linux?
Somehow I had troubles installing Eclipse - JVM in Mandrake 10.0 looks messed up - so it complains.
I mean I still can run apps and stuff but can't run Java apps like say JMSN
Now if Python is that good, then please Python-lovers just tell me a good place to start + where to get a good IDE + FAQs + that.
Funny thing is I've asked IBM and Novell to help me, they called me on the phone, said they were gonna get technicians to indicate stuff and all - but never got back.
I know that when it comes to things like that (assisting,directing,helping out) MS is much better - I just can't stand Windows itself tho, that's all.
When it comes to programming I've been too spoiled with the Visual Studio series
Yes, SWT. It will use Windows widgets on Windows, and GTK+ on *ix. It's what Eclipse uses.
Installed the Bubblemon yet?
Mono is a non-sense, they are trying to read the compat with a moving spec ! And a spec on which they got neither control, nor any complete view !
;-)
.net for any third part to be on that !
This is the same kind of problem that WineHQ has suffered.
I'll take the following bet, within 2 year this mono project will be at the museum
The problem with mono is that there is too much IP concernat around
i love Joel on Software but i think he is missing the obvious solution:
.NET and Avalon.
M$ will go for a clean break with the past with Avalon/Longhorn, and provide backwards compatibility the same way Classic works on OS X. the old programs never know they run on top of a completely new OS. at least that's what they should be doing. they did, after all, buy Virtual PC.
that solution would cleanly reconcile the preservationists (who want to be backwards compatible with 1983 DOS) and the modernists with
In this whole Java vs. NET fight one question crossed my mind: With java its possible to ship a JVM with the software without installing it ( the VM via MSI ie.). I know this is a pain for modem users but it allows for different code targeted at different JVMs (vendor/version) to cooexist on the same machine without causing compatability issues. Is the same thing possible with NET? Or do you need to install it to run, thereby overwriting the previous versions and maybe breaking other software?
___
No power in the 'verse can stop me
We drop Mono and have no support for .NET bytecode apps on Linux. How's that worse than never having it in the first place?
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
"I analyzed the situation and suggested how to create such a market."
Really? where are your findings published at?
now before anyone accuses me of trolling, my stable is as follows:800G4, 700iBook, 400G4, MacSE, MacColorClassic, MacClassic II. i also have a SGI Indigo II, and last and least, a PC running XP for testing web pages.
i want to love OSS, i really do. and as soon as i can effortlessly move from one platform to another without noticing and reformatting, i will love it. that goes for Apple too.
the only way to beat windows is to be as good or better at everything windows is good at, without any learning curve for windows users.
Apple, Linux folks, listen up. stop trying to do better than windows until you can at least do as well. don't try to figure out a different and better way to do it. try and figure out how to make the experience exactly the same, but without the flaws. that is the ticket. a different product that does everything an MS product can do, but does it differeently and with all news flaws, not interested.
All programming language features are potentially dangerous. Operator overloading, however,
1) is a minefield - so many unobvious ways to shoot yourself in the foot
2) is hidden code. Reading it, it's not immediately obvious that the operator has been overrideen
3) is purely syntactic sugar. Anything that can be done with operator overloading can be done without it. For objects A and B, A += B; is directly equivalent to A.Add(B);
Thus operator overloading should be avoided unless you happen to be coding a class that is a mathematical entity, which actually has plus and minus defined on it - e.g. matrix, vector, complex number etc. How often does that happen?
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
Lets start - and then end - with something that only runs on Linux and perhaps BSD. What the flying fuck is the point of that? Nobody will support it on Windows. Nobody will use it on Windows. Nobody will fucking care. How many wxWindows apps are there out there right now? Don't bullshit me, how fucking many?
God damn, you basement dwelling open sourcers piss me off. Drive or get off the fucking tee. Do you have a Java/.NET killer? Put up or shut the fuck up.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.