Recording Industry Hoist By Their Own Petard

An anonymous reader writes "As reported by MSNBC, the recording industry has been unable to offer combination DVD / CD discs to consumers because of the IP ownership questions as well as licensing issues between CD and DVD content. All I can say is it couldn't happen to a nicer bunch!"

Comments

tech issues

[over_exposed]

Don't CD's and DVD's use different laser technologies anywho? Or was that something my dad told me to get me to shut the hell up?

Re:tech issues

[PabloJones]

Maybe they put the CD information on one layer, readable by the CD laser, and then the DVD stuff on another.

Re:tech issues

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, it was. Now shut the hell up. (^_^)b

-- GNU/Anonymous Coward (AKA "Dad")

Re:tech issues

[over_exposed]

Sleep it off dad, just sleep it off :-)

Re:tech issues

[mrgreen4242]

From the article:"The labels also have spurred sales by packaging "bonus" DVDs with CDs. In February, several began test marketing the new hybrid discs -- CD on one side and DVD on the other."

So there you have it, each side of the disc is either the DVD or the CD. Seems a stupid way to do it to me... making a dual layer CD/DVD would be much more convientient, as suggested above, but I'm not sure how plausible it is.

Re:tech issues

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing clever is going on, they simply print them back-to-back, one side DVD and flip it over for CD.

Consindering reading the article before rushing to hit submit.

Re:tech issues

[shepd]

>So there you have it, each side of the disc is either the DVD or the CD.

Now that is interesting. I had always been under the impression that the thickness of the polycarbonate on a CD prevented a CD/DVD sandwich.

I guess you learn something new everyday!

Re:tech issues

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, they manage it with SACD, they've tried true DVD-A hybrids but it wasn't 100% in terms of compatability, it probably wasn't 50% in actuality :)

Re:tech issues

[PabloJones]

I can't see this being a terribly great move on their part. Unless they can find some way to clearly mark the CD side from the DVD side, people are going to put it upside down in the CD player, and they aren't going to get any music, or they'll put it CD-side down in the DVD player and they'll wonder why it only plays the sound. Making something like this idiot-proof would be rather difficult.

If a dual layer thing is possible (I haven't much knowledge about how the technology works) would definitely be the best way to go from a usability standpoint.

Re:tech issues

[rokzy]

of course it's not stupid.

1 scratch, you have to buy the whole thing again.

and no matter what side it lands, there's data to be scratched.

muhahahahahhahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa

1. change probabilities in your favour
2. wait for a large sample of events
3. profit!!!

Re:tech issues

[einhverfr]

This is different from a normal CD how?

If you scratch the polycarbonate side, you might interfere with the reading of the data.

If you scratch the label site you might interfere with the storage of the data.

Re:tech issues

[Crizp]

Maybe this is very uninformed but it seems to me most players, except some slot-loading ones, could accomodate a 1mm thicker disc without problems at all.

My slot-loading Sony car stereo (quite old)had problems ejecting burnt CDs with a printed label sticker. And that's how thick? .2mm or something? It happened only with a couple of brands, so I guess not all CD-R's are the same thickness.

Re:tech issues

[MrBlue VT]

I imagine they will be quite annoying to handle as well. They used do (do they still do this?) make DVDs that had two sides, one side for full screen, the other for letterbox.

The most annoying part of this was the fact that they had to sqeeze the title and side infomation in tiny letters arcing around the spindle hole. It was a pain in the ass trying to read what movie it was.

These creations (abominations) will suffer from the same problem. CDs and DVDs really need a full side devoted to a label. Imagine trying to read that small type while driving.

Re:tech issues

[nkh]

Or the audio CD stuff on the first session, and the DVD on a second session, like the Enhanced CDs with audio tracks and a QuickTime/Flash presentation in a .exe file.

Re:tech issues

[Nachtfalke]

If this is the stuff I think it is, then you get a "flipper", where you have DVD content on the one side, and CD content on the other.

I actually remember a professor at my university talking about this, saying a friend of was doing something great with DVDs. That was in 96 or 97, I think.

Re:tech issues

[DoraLives]

Imagine trying to read that small type while driving.

Imagine having to deal with the asshole who's doing the reading, while crossing the double yellow line coming your way.

Re:tech issues

[M. Silver]

Maybe this is very uninformed but it seems to me most players, except some slot-loading ones, could accomodate a 1mm thicker disc without problems at all.

I'll add anecdotal evidence to this. Confusing as heck to pull a disc off a spindle, put it in, and have some other disc start playing, open the drive, confirm it's the disc you thought it was, spend a few moments wondering who's playing a joke on you and how, and then realize that it's two discs with static cling.

Re:tech issues

[Beale]

objects to finding the truth behind the worst terrorist attack on America,

Don't be silly, the worst terrorist attacks on America were the invasion of Europeans.

Re:tech issues

[ocelotbob]

Actually, these discs would be more durable. The polycarbonate side can be scratched pretty badly before you ruin the disk. It's the more fragile label side which is usually what causes discs to go bad. As there is no label side, you stand a greater chance of the disc still being playable.

Re:tech issues

[HFXPro]

I will second this. I have a bunch of cd's with the shiny tin foil. They are the ones that end up skipping. The scratches on the polycarbonate side I can usually just buff out. My CD's with heavy plastic labels have held up pretty well also since the backside does not come off.

Re:tech issues

[Anonymous Coward]

Well it wasn't America then.... To the victors go the naming rights appearently.

Re:tech issues

[Jeremy Erwin]

Record Stores are not so interested in stocking two formats for each title. With a hybrid disc-- the store can stock a single title, and theoretically satisfy both the low end (CD) and high-end (DVD-Audio) consumer. However, some CD players are not as tolerant of thick discs as DVD players are. After, all, there is no equivalent to the DVD-9/DVD-18 flipper format in the CDDA standard. If double-sided discs are to supplant ordinary CDs, then they must be at least physically compatible with all existing players.

Among other things, the patents cover the specialized manufacturing techniques involved in making thin double-sided discs.

Re:tech issues

[Anonymous Coward]

So, according to your reasoning, once humans had spread over the globe, they never should have moved again. It may interest you to know that there were at least three separate migrations into the Western Hemisphere from the Far East. Should only the first one have been allowed?

Re:tech issues

[nolife]

I've had happen but with a twist in my slot loading car stereo. When I ejected the disc, only the top one came out. I looked at the disc, got confused and stuck a different disc in. It too played the same thing. I was thinking that everyone of my discs somehow got morphed into what I had known as Mix disc #4. It took a while but eventually the other disc came out. My Xbox has also done the same but it actually damaged the disc that was hidden in there. Note to self, don't place the Xbox on its side with a disc in it, not even when unplugged and transporting.

Re:tech issues

[Beale]

It's not that. It's the "We bring you religion, material goods, and also smallpox."

uhm, what purpose does the RIAA serve again?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, as soon as dualdisc burners are available, I have a feeling that I will be manufacturing my own DVD/CD combinations, with no help from the DRM^H^H^HRecording Industry.

PS: the article concentrates more on the licensing of CD/DVD technology, rather than licensing from artists. I.e., Philips is wary of allowing them to be called "CDs"".

Re:uhm, what purpose does the RIAA serve again?

[LiMikeTnux]

"Well, as soon as dualdisc burners are available, I have a feeling that I will be manufacturing my own DVD/CD combinations, with no help from the DRM^H^H^HRecording Industry."

i think that should be "Recording^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HDRM Industry"

Re:uhm, what purpose does the RIAA serve again?

[Yaztromo]

Well, as soon as dualdisc burners are available, I have a feeling that I will be manufacturing my own DVD/CD combinations, with no help from the DRM^H^H^HRecording Industry.

We already have CD burners, and we already have DVD burners.

Why would we need a dualdisc burner? All we should need is the media -- developed properly, succh media should work in existing CD/DVD burners as a "flippy" -- burn one side, flip it over, and then burn the other.

I can see why Philips might be wary about calling them CDs however. In order to achieve such a double-sided disc, the CD layer would have to be somewhere in the middle of the substrate, instead of on one side of it (under the label). As you can't really make the disc any thicker (else it might not fit into standard slot drives), you have to put it closer to the surface of the substrate, whicch violates the CD standard.

Yaz.

Re:uhm, what purpose does the RIAA serve again?

[mcpkaaos]

uhm, what purpose does the RIAA serve again?

To make the very thing you plan on doing illegal for anyone but them.

Re:uhm, what purpose does the RIAA serve again?

[Farrside]

Let's have fun & adopt a new name, bypassing Phillips!
I nominate "DVDA". That should create a host of new, exciting IP problems!

Re:uhm, what purpose does the RIAA serve again?

[Anonymous Coward]

wouldn't "Recording^WDRM" be much easier to write?

Re:uhm, what purpose does the RIAA serve again?

[multiplexo]

We already have CD burners, and we already have DVD burners.

Why would we need a dualdisc burner? All we should need is the media -- developed properly, succh media should work in existing CD/DVD burners as a "flippy" -- burn one side, flip it over, and then burn the other.

This is a totally brilliant point, I wish I had some mod points. I wonder how long it would be, if they started selling CD/DVD blanks, before some little shop in China started shipping a player that could read or write both sides of such a disk simultaneously or sequentially without flipping the disk. Now that would be a bitchin piece of kit!

Re:uhm, what purpose does the RIAA serve again?

[dgatwood]

I prefer the name Compact Recorded Audio Platter, myself.... :-)

There is a God.

[sentientbeing]

Nuff said.

Re:There is a God.

[TedCheshireAcad]

Yes this may be an example of poetic justice, but as is usual, we, the consumers, lose. They may not get to sell this product, but as a direct consequence of that, we do not get the opportunity to buy it.

Re:There is a God.

[Anonymous Coward]

Opportunity to buy?
Sounds like a bad TV-spot: "This is your opportunity, buy now!"

I prefer the less brainwashed approach, download what I like and only buy what can't be downloaded (mostly vinyl).

History tells that music was free until suits came and decided it should be $39,99 a pop. [Technological] evolution has brought us to a point where music can be free again.
My point is, there is no godgiven right to make money with music. IF you can attract audiences large enough and willing to pay you deserve the wealth. If you don't, quit the whining britney.

And keep in mind that the very least part of what you pay for a record actually ends up in the pocket of an artist...

Re:There is a God.

[Simonetta]

I would like to see a really inexpensive portable stereo that could read MP3s on DVDs the way we can now get $20 portable CD players that read CD-R MP3 disks.

When in the mood say for 1970's pop music, I'd put in a DVD disk that had 700 songs from that period in MP3 format. Then set the play function on randon selection.

It would be like listening to a radio station with the DJs or the commercials. I tuned into a Clear Channel station recently while on a car road trip and I was just amazed at how much stupid stuff there is inbetween the musical selections. After about 30 minutes, I stuck an MP3 CDR with 100 songs on it into the car stereo just because the Clear Channel radio station was so irritating.

Since many of the oldies stations have playlists that are about 2000 songs maximum total that they ever play, having a $0.49 DVD-R disk with say 800 songs on it is like having the entire radio station's library with ever having to deal with moronic DJs and stupid commercials.

Since all this is as illegal as hell anyway, maybe we can get our local neighborhood pot sellers to give away a $0.49 DVD-R of the 800 greatest stoner tunes with every $100 quarter ounce of Humboldt Thunderbolt that they sell. Just to get their little subculture out of the habit of just turning on the radio to hear music and rebuild the cohesion between the music community and the hemp community that existed before the MP3 revolution split the corporate music structure from their audience. Musicians would be as successful distributing their music through this illegal channel than they would through the old global music corporation/record store distribution channel.

Re:There is a God.

[MarsDefenseMinister]

For every opportunity to buy that is lost by a consumer, there is an opportunity to save that is gained by a CITIZEN.

When marketing people refer to me as a consumer, it sounds like they are cussing.

hybrids

[Davak]

DVD Plus and DualDisc are based on the same concept--hybrid discs with a DVD on one side and a CD on the other--and Warner sold its patent on the technology to Dierks, though the label retained the license to manufacture products under the Warner name.

It is simple enough. DVD on one side; CD on the other. Everybody is happy... ...except not. Now this interesting technology is tied up in patent and copyright fights.

And we'll probably never see it.

Davak

Re:hybrids

[slashjames]

At least patents are limited to 20 years, so we'll see it about the time the technology of CDs and DVDs is obsolete...

I love their webpage

[pHatidic]

To sum up their website

24Kb two color JPEG: Loading Soon

Re:I love their webpage

[Crizp]

Mod me as redundant, but HOW THE HELL does a webdesigner get the idea that JPEG is the best format for that logo?

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry :)

Re:I love their webpage

[Anonymous Coward]

My reaction exactly (why the hell is THAT in JPEG?!)

There's too many people working on the Web today, and 95% of them are incompetent.

Re:I love their webpage

[yipyow]

Actually it's 3 color, if you count the off-black that they used for the background.

Re:I love their webpage

[robochan]

And to top it off, the black background on the image doesn't even match the black background on the page.
And they're going to be combining multimedia formats? ;o)

Re:I love their webpage

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.dualdisc.com/perl/lib/

Perl Cartridge Error: Failed to open '/ora/app/oracle/product/805/ows/3.0/perl/lib' at /ora/app/oracle/product/805/ows/3.0/perl/lib/persi st.pl line 49.

http://www.dualdisc.com/perl/lib/persist.pl

(Perl Cartridge Error?)

Re:I love their webpage

[sweetooth]

That's MS black don't you know.

Re:I love their webpage

[tomhudson]

That's strange. When I went there http://www.dualdisc.com/perl/lib/persist.pl I got this instead:

Perl Cartridge Error: Search pattern not terminated at (eval 3) line 85.

Guess they're still using that ole 8-track perl cartridge, instead of moving to the newer CD/DVD/MP3/DivX technology 'cause they couldn't get a closed-source licensing agreement :-)

Re:I love their webpage

[tomhudson]

You might want to play around with this url a bit, though: http://www.dualdisc.com/perl/lib/admin.pl

http://www.dualdisc.com/perl/lib/admin.pl?INSERT_Q UERY_STRING_PARAMETERS_HERE

They're obviously running on someone's multi-homed box. Who knows what you can get Oracle to cough up if you add the right parameters? Adding

Perl Cartridge Error: Failed to open '/ora/app/oracle/product/805/ows/3.0/perl/lib/admi n.pl' at (eval 6) line 55.

Have fun.

Re:I love their webpage

[fm6]

Looks fine on my monitor. Perhaps you need to adjust your alpha or brightness?

Re:I love their webpage

[Anonymous Coward]

The background is RGB (7,7,7) - and there's some (1,1,1) at the right edge. That is, there's actually a darker black in the image. The actual page requests (0,0,0) as the background.

I don't think adjusting monitors will help - you probably didn't notice because it's pretty darn near (but not exactly) the right colour.

possible harm?

[zrobotics]

Could someone please explain how this is bad for RIAA/MPAA? this just means that i now have to buy two disks-the cd and the dvd. or, they could package it as a two disk set like most special edition dvds that you see. really, i dont think it means much, especially to the /. crowd

Re:possible harm?

[Anonymous Coward]

This has no meaning in terms of the whole RIAA/MPAA vs their customers dispute. This is just gonna be business as usual. An unsightly and embarassing slashdot overdramatization of the facts.

Re:possible harm?

[Salsaman]

It's more environmentally friendly to sell one disc than two. For that reason alone I would like to see this succeed.

Re:possible harm?

[Hognoxious]

It's more environmentally friendly to sell one disc than two.

Is it more environmentally friendly to travel by one vehicle than in two? (Hint: the one might be a gas guzzler with a broken cat and the two might be hydrogen-electric compacts. Or bikes.)

Your statement, without knowledge of the entire process used to make them (they may use all manner of toxic shit to make them; the double sided disks may have ten times the failure rate of separate disks and take up five times the landfill), is at best speculation and at worst total and utter bullshit, based on one being less than two (you think you're smart to know this?) but without the intelligence to comprehend that apples are not oranges.

It's being used!

[Davak]

Warner has released DualDisc albums by R.E.M., P.O.D., Barenaked Ladies, Donald Fagen, and Linkin Park. The CD side of the disc contains standard two-channel, 16-bit/44.1kHz audio, while the DVD side features a high-resolution, 5.1-channel mix of the album. BMG, on the other hand, has music videos on the DVD side of its Usher release. Sony has released DualDiscs by AC/DC, Audioslave, David Bowie, and Good Charlotte. RCA has issued an EP-length DualDisc by the Calling.

Sounds like tons of people are using it to me!

My belief is that record companies are looking for new high-bandwidth ways to sell media. Sure anybody can listen to the song from mp3 or the radio... but it's much nicer to have the video and additional content right in front of you.

Davak

Re:It's being used!

[over_exposed]

Bear in mind that most artists have little or no say in what their label produces on their behalf. If Warner wants to release a DualDisc release of a Linkin Park album, there's not a whole lot that Linkin Park can do about it.

Re:It's being used!

[Davak]

No doubt. Several friends of mine were in an excellent band 5 or 6 years ago. The won several contests and had a huge local following.

Several companies were fighting to sign them. They signed... but the company decided that they were not young enough. So the company just held on to their contract and their music to insure that nobody else could profit from them either.

By the time they got out of their contract, they were out of their prime.

They still perform now, and they enjoy making money by doing bars and small concerts; however, they missed that one golden chance that many bands have to make a mint quickly.

The record companies are bastards.

Davak

Re:It's being used!

[SquadBoy]

The new Cure album also says it has "DVD content"

Re:It's being used!

[The Analog Kid]

However there are some bands still remaining that have say, Rush comes to mind. They own their copyrights through Anthem Entertainment, which they own 85% of. I don't know how Atlantic comes into play perhaps Atlantic Records gets exclusive rights to distribute their works in US of America and if they decide to change labels the work done under Altantic remains their to distribute but atleast in Canada they are independent.

Rush gets an unheard of payment per CD sold, something like $1.50 a CD, and their racking in something like $500,000 or more per night this tour from what I've seen.

Re:It's being used!

[vehn23]

This sounds extremely implausible.

Re:It's being used!

[Stuart Gibson]

Unless it is a different version to mine, it just has a DVD disc included with it that shows some home footage of them recording the album, it's on a different disc to the music.

Good album BTW.

Stuart

Re:It's being used!

[moonbender]

How do your "friends" making poor business decisions and signing a contract that made them unable to work turn into the record company being a "bastard".

It clearly is not a nice thing to do by the record company, therefore they are bastards. It might be legal and something the company "had to do" given its sole goal of profiting, it's still not nice. And that goes no matter if the people who lose are "idiots" or not.

Re:It's being used!

[Miriku chan]

i run in the san diego music scene, i'll vouch for things like that occuring all the time. it's standard for a contract to say "signed for 5 albums", and then have the label simply not put any money or care into the album's distribution and release. you end up basically losing 5 years of your life

Re:It's being used!

[adjuster]

It clearly is not a nice thing to do by the record company, therefore they are bastards.

Companies don't do "nice" things-- companies return revenue for shareholders. That is their function. I don't know about you, but I like the idea of companies focusing on their return to shareholders. It means that I know what their priorities and agenda are-- versus companies that do irrational things based on shadowy internal agendas.

Again-- people who make bad business decisions have no room to bitch. That's life, in business.

Re:It's being used!

[Tony-A]

This sounds extremely implausible.

I don't follow the scene at all anymore, but unless things have changed drastically, that would be the norm.

Re:It's being used!

[Anonymous Coward]

Companies don't do "nice" things-- companies return revenue for shareholders.

You're assuming the two are mutually exclusive. Companies can be quite nice, and still deliver revenue on a consistent basis. Maybe not enough to satisfy speculators bent on making 30% a year, but enough to keep it's employees fully employed at good wages, satisfy the market, and serve the needs of it's customers and local community.

For example, fraud or tax evasion might be something on of your non-nice companies might do to "maximize revenue". Do this often enough though, and you might find that the shareholders end up with holdings in a worthless company.

With that said though, the music and entertainment industries have always stood apart from regular business. In entertainment, it is STANDARD PRACTICE to have contracts designed to pay out at multiple levels to the company, and to lock out or lock in for long periods of time (laws in California, New York, and Tennessee reflect the influences of entertainment lobbying and prior case law.) If you do business in the entertainment industry, it's absolutely necessary to have a good entertainment contract lawyer to negotiate for you, and to watch your back.

Again-- people who make bad business decisions have no room to bitch. That's life, in business.

Exactly. There's no law against making a stupid deal - you have to look out for yourself, as nobody else is.

Re:It's being used!

[moonbender]

Companies don't do "nice" things-- companies return revenue for shareholders.

Yes, that's what I said. Thanks for rephrasing it. It still doesn't make it any nicer, or the company any more morally justified. The fact that they don't care about moral justificationis insignificant. If I don't give a shit about who I hurt because I'm only interested in making a profit, I'm pretty much an asshole. The same goes for companies.

And as for the question whether that's a good thing or not, I don't know. I agree that it ought to make them predictable, and it does, but only to a certain degree. And it doesn't translate to a very good world view. But I'm rambling.

Re:It's being used!

[Lehk228]

they should sue the company for acting in bad faith, i am quite sure that signing a band just to keep them out of the hands of competition with no intention of actually performing the duties of a record label would be seen as acting in bad faith.

Re:It's being used!

[AtariKee]

The problem with that is the lack of recourse that the band has compared to the recording cartel. They'd keep the case in court for so long, the band would probably be bankrupt before they could see any settlement.

Cynical? Maybe a little. But true.

Re:It's being used!

[Anonymous Coward]

They could always use all the experience they gain to become high-paid lawyers.

Re:It's being used!

[Anonymous Coward]

And yet their singer's voice is so annoying. I guess you can't have everything.

Re:It's being used!

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't Prince try this (sue the label for lack of promotion) and fail?

Re:It's being used!

[maximilln]

You hush! You shut your filthy trap!

Neal Pert is the best rhythm master of all time.

Re:It's being used!

[Ibag]

It doesn't sound like they just signed their rights away, though. Record companies don't say "How would you like to not be able to work for anybody," they say "Come work for us." There is an implication that you will recieve promotion and possible collateral in exchange for being otherwise screwed.

If they were truely signed just to keep someone else from signing them, and if they wer ddenied the things that they should have been given, then the recor companies were in breach of trust, if not of contract.

The common complaint people have with labels screwing artists is that they take too big a share of the money that flows in, not that they keep the money from coming in.

Re:It's being used!

[recursiv]

This definitely happens all the time. It's standard procedure for labels. Do some research.

Re:It's being used!

[nettdata]

Then you're extremely uninformed as to how the industry works. I've headed up some of the IT initiateives in the mid-90's (database driven web sites, streaming audio, etc.) for Nettwerk, EMI, Virgin, BMG, and Sony, and as a result have met a LOT of musicians, and can vouch for this happening for more than just a few of the acts.

Re:It's being used!

[clifyt]

Well, it depends on how much of an idiot the artists were.

The last time I was signed, I made sure my lawyer looked at everything and he struck out several clauses -- and put an escape clause in for me and my guys.

Point was, I got paid when the label decided that they wanted us to go another direction and I kept control of the content. They had a year to accept or reject it and that was that. It paid well enough that I went back to school for a few more years sans student loans (I still have $30k in student loans that my current occupation -- researcher at a university -- isn't very helpful in paying).

The point it, if someone signs a restrictive contract that can hold them hostage for several years (likely 7 at most if they signed in California or the label's headquarters are there), they should be held to the contract. If you promise to do something, you should keep your word. The promise is the contract -- not what others say about the contract. They signed it, they suffer.

Past popular point of view, no one forces a band to sign whats in front of them. And more than likely, quite a few clauses are in there solely for give an take purposes. When my lawyer struck that clause and several others, the label didn't seem to care and faxed back revised copies within the day. No questions asked. And then I meet others that actually might have made it (unlike me, who sabotaged everything as it came to me and my friends), and they didn't even consult a lawyer other than the manager provided to them by the label.

Acting in bad faith would be not laying out all possibilities at the onset. These are laid out for anyone willing to read the contract. I have no pity for people that sign their name to anything without knowing the consequences.

Re:It's being used!

[Anonymous Coward]

"it's standard for a contract to say "signed for 5 albums","

And thats why you never agree to anything more than a 1 album deal.

If your music sells, you will be signed again. If it doesn't, you are free to keep your artistic integrity intact. Or sell out and reproach the labels with a new concept.

Any new artist that signs for more than 1 album is an idiot.

Re:It's being used!

[TheSpoom]

Google is a company that isn't an asshole, thusfar.

Therefore I would say that no, it's not a good thing. If I ran a company, I wouldn't run it like a record company.

Re:It's being used!

[Lehk228]

but taking advantage of someone by claiming that they will sign them to produce music and instead sat on them would be in bad faith, just as a band trying to get out of a %X songs per %Y years releasing nothing but E-A-G progressions and snarling would , while tecnically still music, be in bad faith (or death metal, take your pick)

Re:It's being used!

[Anonymous Coward]

you should read this:
http://www.prosoundweb.com/recording/mm/
if you don't believe things like that happens...

Re:It's being used!

[genka]

Google is a company that isn't an asshole, thusfar.

Seven or so years ago eBay also wasn't an asshole.

Re:It's being used!

[nettdata]

You have absolutely no idea at ALL about what you're talking about.

You actually think "talent" has anything to do with getting a record deal? (Let's not even THINK about William Hung!) I've seen some of the most incredibly jaw-droppingly unbelieveable musicians not get signed for lots of reasons, such as not being willing to sign over the control that the label wants, but primarily they didn't fit the "look" or latest fad.

For instance, when Stevie Ray Vaughn was presented to the powers that be at EMI, they didn't sign him because they didn't think he'd sell at all. Yeah, right.

Regardless, I've seen bands get signed to an exclusive deal that were awesome, and yet the label arbitrarily changed their minds and didn't do anything with them. The bands still wrote and demo'd, but the label wouldn't put them into the studio to record... never mind put together the marketing campaign, tour, etc. FYI, it usually takes about a year to a year and a half to record and promote the album, and then comes the touring.

"NOT YOUNG ENOUGH" is PRECISELY why this kind of thing happens... because in the year since a band gets signed, some fuckwad in marketing realizes that the target demographic is now looking for 16-18 year old faggy boy bands with attitude (or whatever other "fad of the day" is relevent) rather than 25+ year old quality musicians that they have just signed.

Oh... one other thing. This "getting signed for thousands of dollars" thing is pretty funny... you have no clue at all. When a band gets signed, they basically enter into an agreement saying that the record company will provide them with all sorts of money (under strict control/supervision of the label) to record, tour, and MAYBE to live off, etc., but THEY WILL PAY IT ALL BACK, plus some serious interest (userous in most cases). This is BEFORE the artist sees a penny in "profit".

A newly signed band, in 99.999% of the time, will not get a whack of cash to go buy the Porsches or H2's. That's the myth, the dream, and feeds the greed that allows artists to make incredibly stupid decisions at the most important time of their carreer... at the beginning when they sign their contracts. They're lucky if they can afford to keep gas in the 15 year old tour van that they MIGHT already own/rent.

Once they've proven their ability to sell product, then they gain some leverage when renegotiating their next ADVANCE. And there's a reason why they call it an ADVANCE.

Say what you like, but I've been in the thick of it for almost 15 years, and have seen it play out a thousand times.

Re:It's being used!

[glenstar]

The point it, if someone signs a restrictive contract that can hold them hostage for several years (likely 7 at most if they signed in California or the label's headquarters are there), they should be held to the contract. If you promise to do something, you should keep your word. The promise is the contract -- not what others say about the contract. They signed it, they suffer.

In California, the record label *must* pay you a minimum of 9k the first year and 12k (if memory serves correctly) each remaining year if you have signed an exclusive contract with them for your recording services.

Re:It's being used!

[Anonymous Coward]

a band trying to get out of a %X songs per %Y years releasing nothing but E-A-G progressions and snarling would , while tecnically still music, be in bad faith (or death metal, take your pick)

I thought "bad faith music" was a reference to Christian rock...

Re:It's being used!

[clifyt]

I know one artist being put through the ropes right now where the label wants a specific sound out of them. They sounded near 80s alternative (back when we called it modern rock) and the label wants a contemporary alternative sound.

Can the label force them to produce something like this? Sorta. They agreed to go through a team that will help them write the music -- in a sense giving up their own artistic values in hopes that these guys will make them a lot of money.

Sometimes these kinds of guys do. Sometimes they don't.

I have a friend that worked on the latest Liz Phair album. I was a little miffed when I heard it -- it sounded like Brittney Pop after hearing her soul pouring earlier works. I was very disappointed and I mentioned it to the friend working on this. His statement on the subject was that his goal was to make something that could sell to the masses, not a small percentage of fan boys that actually like art. He also mentioned this album sole more than the combination of all her older works.

You know going in how you are going to be used. Are you simply going to be a vehicle for the label to make money and you simply come along for a ride? Or is the label going to hire you to be yourself? There are hundreds of labels to choose from and you know what most are about. A good friend of mine delayed signing to record his last album -- the label all had ideas of what they wanted. He recorded it on his dime (which isn't hard as he's a multimillionaire) and THEN shopped the album. It received a grammy last year. Shit, even within labels are sublabels and imprints that are all different in what they are looking for.

No musician comes into this process blind. They are told the entire way. Some of us know whats going to happen and push the envelope anyways (with the full advice of our legal aides), others go for the ride bitching and moaning that they got ripped off or that it isn't fair.

New Dave Matthews Band album is combination CD/DVD

[mgahs]

I don't think this is industry-wide. The Dave Matthews Band just came out with a live album from their tour-ending shows in 2002. You can buy the best songs from all three shows on a two-disc set, plus it comes with a DVD with 6 or 7 songs from those shows, plus highlights of the Gorge venue.

It's not as if it's a 2-disc jewel case and a DVD case, I mean it's all one case - open it up and the DVD is on one side, and the two CDs are overlapping on the other side. It's ONE unit.

Now, the Dave Matthews Band has been around long enough that they have pretty damn good control over their own content, and they release their albums on Bama Rags (their own label, i think), but it's also distributed through Columbia, so it's not completely independent.

Not exactly a DVD and a CD but almost

[Fred_A]

Here a group called "Kool Shem" had their latest album released on a disk that has one side pressed as an audio CD and the other as a video DVD, a format they call "DVD [plus]".

I've only heard of this because of the technical first and have no idea what kind of music they do, apparently it's some kind of rap thing.

Sample link to an online store (Fnac.com)

Re:Not exactly a DVD and a CD but almost

[ConceptJunkie]

apparently it's some kind of rap thing.

Meaning the quality of the music is the same regardless of which side you play in your CD player...

Re:Not exactly a DVD and a CD but almost

[Anonymous Coward]

"Suck the dick head and eat the dick, cookie"

Re:I AM A SMELLY SOUTH INDIAN

[Vampyre_Dark]

Thw above post pretty much sums up the typical RIAA meeting.

Remove head from sphincter before posting!

[Anonymous Coward]

The discs in question have one side that's a CD and one side that's a DVD.

Any decent computer these days has a drive that can read both CDs and DVDs. If you go put a CD in your DVD player, more likely than not it will recognize it as a music disc and play it.

What "tech issues" could there be, Einstein?

Inside/Outside Diameter

[KB1GHC]

I think the idea was to have audio on the inside 1/2 of the disk, and DVD be the outside 1/2 of the disk

*chuckles wickedly*

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, indeed. This is, as we say at the trekkie conventions, "being hosed by your own picard"

Sweet, sweet ineed.

hoistED by their own petard

[Anonymous Coward]

I know slashdot authors are the poster children for nerds who can't speak or write correctly, but you guys could at least learn verb tenses.

not exactly new

[LeninZhiv]

Philips Electronics, the licensor of the CD logo, has refused to allow the hybrid discs to be sold with the CD logo unless the labels guarantee to assume responsibility for "read errors" on the CD side, a spokeswoman for Philips said.

My personal RIAA boycott has been ongoing for some time now, but the last few CDs that I did buy did not have the CD logo on them, nor do the discs in my wife's (who has not yet seen fit to join the boycott) collection. It seems to me that the big labels have been eschewing the official CD logo for some time now--so the lack of 'official licensing' for DualDisc shouldn't actually be a factor for its acceptance, at least from the CD side.

Re:not exactly new

[Crizp]

Philips disallow the use the "Compact Disc Digital Audio" logo if the disc is has compatibility problems due to protection. Most protection schemes are incompatible with some players (remember the Macintosh fuckups?) but some are just extremely incompatible. That's when Philips says "nope, this is crap, we won't stand for it."

Is the copy protection schemes even in the Red Book or another colored book, like CD-Extra is (the multisession "data is last session so audio players can play track 1" i believe)?

Re:not exactly new

[geminidomino]

ManOwaR's "Dawn of Battle" disguised the "protection" as "Extra Content" by putting some cruddy realmovie stuff on the disk too.

Yet I still managed to rip them to MP3s after firing a nasty note off to ManOwaR about turning into another Metallica (that doesn't suck).

Hey MPAA:

^
^^ ^^

Re:not exactly new

[t_allardyce]

Most people don't see or care about the CD logo, if its a round silver disk in a square case its a CD to them. Infact thats an under-statement: 99.99% of people don't notice the CD logo, its so un-important in their buying of the CD that its a joke to say "no you cant display it" because no-one cares. If i were philips i would throw the book at them. Demand they not only don't display the logo but that they have a big massive "THIS MAY NOT WORK IN YOUR CD PLAYER, THIS IS NOT A CD" sticker or just not sell CDs. Not that i agree with that sort of crap normally but if its against these assholes you gotta do as much as you can to screw them over - If i was rich id have a fun time buying out Philips and the DVDLA and telling all the record labels i hated to piss off bwahhahahaha then the world would be with out britney! (actually i would buy out the labels and then fire all the boy-bands and generic teeny-pop hoes and tell them they couldnt work anywhere else because i owned their identity.

Re:not exactly new

[Ben Hutchings]

The not-really-a-CD logo was introduced a couple of years back and I have seen it on a few discs.

Re:not exactly new

[t_allardyce]

A big 2-fingered 'fuck-you' salute would be a more appropriate logo, but i don't think anyone would notice that either.

who gives a fuck?..

[Anonymous Coward]

... we all download MP3's.

Caught in their own trap.

[dj245]

Phrasefinder gives the meaning of this reference to Petards. Funny, I always thought petards were a suicidal Age of Empires 2 unit...

Re:Caught in their own trap.

[Anonymous Coward]

More in depth:
http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxho istw.htm l

Re:Caught in their own trap.

[RealProgrammer]

Shakespeare used the phrase "the enginer hoist by his own petar", meaning a (military) engineer blown up by his own bomb.

The Bard was a master of puns, and knew that his audience would also snicker at the thought of a soldier riding the mushroom cloud of a giant explosion situated between his legs.

Re:Caught in their own trap.

[jafiwam]

Petards are a dangerous (to friend and foe alike) early gunpowder weapon.

Basically, a big metal bucket held against a wall or door filled with gunpowder and shot (sometimes). It's set off via a wick in the back, intention being to make a big hole in the wall or door. Usually they were used for siege situations. The explosion sent the petard flying backwards in parts, and caused damage or breach in the wall or door.br>
People setting the thing off often died if they could not get away (gunpowder wicks can be tricky stuff if it's home brew).

Here's a pic: Petard

Waffles

[Anonymous Coward]

So, Mr. Kerry, why were you against the Iraqi aid bill before you supported it?

Re:Waffles

[Anonymous Coward]

I wanted to show my solidarity to president Bush. You know create a bridge between his campaign promise to "not engage in nation building" to the future he's created.

Isn't that sort of like SACD?

[Graemee]

Sony's SACD are a CD layer & a DVD (type) layer on the same side of the disk. But the extra layer is not compatible with any players, other than SACD ones.

Would a real DVD layer work on a player that could support both? IFAIK DVD & CD players currently see the CD layer then ignore the DVD^H^H^SACD layer. I don't know if this is due to the SACD layer being ignored when the player detects the CD layer first or that the DVD layer is not detect as a DVD video layer first. But if the SACD layer was a valid DVD layer would DVD players pick it up? My guess the patents/licensing for this type of disk prevents use or most current hardware would not work without a firmware change.

Re:Isn't that sort of like SACD?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fucking Darkside of the Moon is only available in 5.1 on SACD, and not dvd.

ASSHOLES!

Silly idea

[Alsee]

Ya know, they could put anywhere from 400 high bitrate MP3's on a single layer DVD to 1600 good bitrate MP3's on a dual layer DVD.

Nahhhhh, what a silly idea. Who the hell would ever want to replace an entire shelf worth of CD's and cassettes and what-not with one disk you could toss in a (large) jacket pocket?

-

Re:Silly idea

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of person would replace their entire shelf worth of CD's, when they can lose all of it with a scratch or media degradation?

Re:Silly idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm, the kind of person who knows you can make a backup copy for a buck or so... And another to keep at work. Or the kind that already has the backup copy on an ipod.

Re:Silly idea

[MostlyHarmless]

It's called the "Golden DVD", and our friends at Downhill Battle have already come up with that. Which means that the odds of the major labels doing it are slim to none. ;-)

Re:Silly idea

[LaCosaNostradamus]

At current per-song pricing from "them", with discounting since it's such a large purchase, that slDVD will cost you $320, and the dlDVD will cost you $960. "They" will even throw in an extra backup disc in case you scratch the original, and "they" will even guarantee your purchase for 20 years (if there are any bad recordings, or you destroy the original AND the backup).

Now, will you buy it? {snort} Of course you won't. OR, yes you would ... you and the 346 other customers the business gets across America in the next year, bringing "them" a well-earned average revenue of about $220K that year. Boy, why oh why don't we see "them" jumping at this chance to service this customer base?!?!

Re:New Dave Matthews Band album is combination CD/

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for bothering to RTFA, oh wait this is Slashdot why should I be surprised.

Re:New Dave Matthews Band album is combination CD/

[Crizp]

Also Phish has very good control over what happens, I guess. And, in their contract it explicitally says audience taping is to be allowed unless they say otherwise.

I like bands that allow the audience to tape their shows, visit Etree for a huge list of live shows by a large number of bands - most of them in glorious lossless SHN or FLAC formats.

When I found Etree and discovered SHN at the same time I almost came in my pants - among other things they have over 2500 Grateful Dead shows!

"hard-hit music industry"

[whoever57]

hard-hit music industry had been counting on to aid its recovery

I'm sorry, I did not realize that increased revenues means an industry is "hard-hit" and in need of a "recovery".

How is this even patentable?

[The Monster]

CD on one side and DVD on the other.

This would seem to be such an obvious thing to do that it's difficult to understand how a patent could be granted on the combination. Such patents as already exist on DVDs (including the two-sided variety) and CDs would cover everything about the 'invention'.

Oh. I forgot we're talking about the USPTO here. They'll grant a patent on a patently absurd application.

Re:How is this even patentable?

[Yaztromo]

This would seem to be such an obvious thing to do that it's difficult to understand how a patent could be granted on the combination. Such patents as already exist on DVDs (including the two-sided variety) and CDs would cover everything about the 'invention'.

I haven't seeen the patent, but it probably isn't solely on the concept of having a DVD on one side and a layer on the other side readable by CD players (note I'm not calling it a "CD layer", as CDs have a very specific standard which this one would, by necessity, need to violate).

Chances are good the patent covers (at least in part) the process in which they apply the CD-readable layer within the substrate at a different level then in the standard (remember: in standard CDs the mylar is on one side of the disc just under the label, which wouldn't be possible in the invention due to the need to put two DVD layers on the opposite side), and still have it readable by most standard CD players.

That would be something sufficiently unique to pass by the patent office.

(And yes, I have some experience in this area, having one of my previous employers submit patent applications for two software inventions I came up while in their employ -- shortly before they canned me and hosed me out of my bonus for said inventions. Bastards. If these patents are ever granted, rest assured I'll be posting a /. story on it...).

Yaz.

Re:How is this even patentable?

[prowley]

If you are listed as inventor, then they won't get those patents unless you sign any documents they need to respond to queries by the USPO. Usually they don't have much time to respond, and it is at this point you extract your "bonus" in return for your signature.

If you are not listed as the inventor, then your employer is making a fraudulent claim...

Failure to work out agreement will hurt DVD-A

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a DVD-A player in my car with 5.1 surround sound. It is cost prohibitive to purchase both standard audio CD's and DVD-A discs. The idea of the dual disc was to make DVD-A more popular and desirable. This failure to work out an agreement will force DVD-A to remain a niche format. This is sad because it is very entertaining, and it sounds great.

Does the price look familiar?

[mingrassia]

From the article:
"They have sold for about $18.99 in retail stores."

Does this price sound familiar? It is roughly the price CDs were before they were caught price fixing.

It seems to me that the recording industry only has one business model ...

1. Take one good item
2. Bundle a lot of crap with it you don't want (now this includes video content)
3. Sell it at a high price that it totally unreasonable.

DVD of movies are still cheeper than this.

Re:Does the price look familiar?

[robwmc]

It seems to me that the recording industry only has one business model ...

1. Take one good item
2. Bundle a lot of crap with it you don't want (now this includes video content)
3. Sell it at a high price that it totally unreasonable.

It seems more like:

1. Take one good item
2. Screw over consumers
3. ?
4. Profit

Re:Does the price look familiar?

[maximilln]

It seems to me that the recording industry only has one business model ...

1. Take one good item
2. Bundle a lot of crap with it you don't want (now this includes video content)
3. Sell it at a high price that it totally unreasonable.

Microsoft, is that you?

'Cept MS never had that "one good item". They just had the "one item with superior market share". I guess, in terms of business, there's no difference.

Re:Does the price look familiar?

[t_allardyce]

I think 3 is "Re-write laws to cover your ass"

Re:Does the price look familiar?

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot:

4. ???
5. Profit!

Super Audio CD?

[Anonymous Coward]

Frankly, I could care less about interviews and pictures of the artist in the studio. I payed for a surround sound system because movies sound better that way. The movie industry seems to understand that and don't try to treat it as a niche market. The DVD format is being promoted in favor of VHS and there is no extra charge for the surround sound track. But when it comes to the music industry, finding Super Audio CDs usually require going mail order and with extra cost. Is there any music label that is attempting to make Super Audio CD the defacto standard? Because I'm getting sick of these walkman quality dual-channel 44Khz discs and I don't see dual-disc as the solution. When will the learn to give me what I want instead of going through legal hoops to give me what I don't want?

And thus spaketh the geeks

[davmoo]

As ye shall sow, so shall ye reap.

Petard?

[azav]

I do not think that means what you think it means.

Petard

Re:Petard?

[bhorling]

The phrase "hoist with his own petard" comes from Shakespeare. Petard, as you noted, means an explosive of some sort. While hoist means to lift up. Shakespeare was referring to a sapper, which duing a siege would place an explosive under a castle wall in order to bring it down. If you've been hoisted by your own petard then you've managed to blow yourself up with your own bomb.

Re:Petard?

[Fishstick]

tell it to the bard:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=petard

Word History: The French used pétard, "a loud discharge of intestinal gas," for a kind of infernal engine for blasting through the gates of a city. "To be hoist by one's own petard," a now proverbial phrase apparently originating with Shakespeare's Hamlet (around 1604) not long after the word entered English (around 1598), means "to blow oneself up with one's own bomb, be undone by one's own devices." The French noun pet, "fart," developed regularly from the Latin noun pditum, from the Indo-European root *pezd-, "fart."/i

Re:Petard?

[maximilln]

French noun pet, "fart," developed regularly from the Latin noun pditum, from the Indo-European root *pezd-, "fart."

My mother would sh_t. So is "fart" a truly academically acceptable term, or is it still slang for "flatulence"?

Re:Petard?

[Anonymous Coward]

Man, and there I was imagining a petard was some kind of old school medieval underwear or something.

Re:Petard?

[Anonymous Coward]

> I do not think that means what you think it means.

I do not think you paid attention in class.

That's from Hamlet, stupid.

Re:Petard?

[Lochin Rabbar]

Fart comes from Old English, flatulence is a later polite latinate term. Fart is fine it's flatulence which is the slang word.

Re:Petard?

[PizzaFace]

To clarify, the phrase should be "hoist with their own petard" (or hoisted, in modern usage), not "hoist by their own petard." A petard is a bomb that would be hoisted into position to breach a wall or door.

People who don't know what a petard is commonly hear the phrase "hoisted with his own petard" and think the petard did the hoisting, and then they misrepeat the phrase as "hoisted by his own petard."

Common usage may have replaced the obsolete verb hoise with its participle, hoist, but it has not changed petards from explosive devices into lifting machines.

You're overlooking an VERY important fact

[Anonymous Coward]

The greatful dead SUCKS ASS (and phish is even worse).

OT, but will say anyway: hip-hop is dead

[Anonymous Coward]

hip hop is dead. killed by it's own success.

it has no more substance, talks about no issues. it went mainstream and became fat and filthy rich. white kids who buy records are to blame, too. and mtv and BigLabels.

it became a simulacra. image with no origin. repetitive, reproductive. copying itself into infinity.

Re:OT, but will say anyway: hip-hop is dead

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey buddy, I mourn hiphops passing as much as the next guy but those of us who also listen to rock can tell you rock music has been died for a while.

It was born in the 50s, really became amazing in the 60s, still rocking in the 70s but by the end getting bad...the 80s...not good...the 90s...grunge gave it a little boost...now this decade rock music is real shit! Total commercialized whiny puke.

Just like listening to a rapper go on about his yahct and bmw and all that silly shit sucks so does listening to some rocker whine about his parents or his girlfriend!

I'd even listen to some of that old 90s hardcore gangsta shit than this "bottle o' bub" bullshit we got today. I mean ya those old west coast fuckers had hard rhymes but they did have some kind of message. Likewise the old school 80s new york stuff was partying and bragging but it was still street and down to earth not some mansions and yachts bullshit! No one livs like that! Wanna rap about how fly your adidas is, fine. But when rhymes sounds like some shit from a polo club in the hamptons its fucking shit!

P.S. Lloyd Banks fucking sucks. May he be a one hit wonder, lords knows theres only one good song on his fucking whole album.

What happen to the days when you buy an album and 12 out of 16 songs are good? Now you buy some shit for 20 bucks and 1 MAYBE 2 songs are good, the rest are filler crap!

Is it just me?...

[KermitJunior]

Am I the only one that read this "Recording Industry Hoist By their Own Retard?"

Re:Is it just me?...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, it is just you. Everybody else is busy discussing the etymology of the phrase used.

Idiots!!!

[Gregoyle]

Check this out:

They see these "DualDiscs" as a next generation product that marries the booming market for DVDs with declining CDs.[emphasis added]

and then:

They have sold for about $18.99 in retail stores.

These things are not unrelated!! Why are DVDs doing so much better than CDs? Gee, could it be because I can get a feature length movie for much LESS than a 74 minute CD? Forget the whole problem of timebomb-popularity industry manufactured arists for just a moment, and think about price. Why is it that I can get Ghost Dog or Pulp Fiction at many movie stores for 10 bucks, but if I want to get the soundtrack it'll set me back 17 or 18? They're older albums, there is NO REASON for them to cost so much.

The problem with the music industry is that they don't remember the laws of supply and demand. If they lowered the prices of their music, more people would buy it. I have long ago ceased feeling sorry for them. They are digging their own graves by refusing to listen to the market. Here are some quick and dirty solutions...

People aren't buying CDs? Try lowering the price!! People still aren't buying your manufactured artists? Try signing artists with actual talent and promoting THEM over the plastic hype! People are downloading too many songs for free? (Hey let's sue elementary school kids! Great plan!) Try offering the songs EASILY and INEXPENSIVELY. If you had paid attention to this when we were all screaming at you 4 or 5 years ago this wouldn't be a problem now. Instead you opted for the head-in-the-sand technique and needed to be strongarmed by a computer hardware and software manufacturer.

Re:Idiots!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

/me hands Greg an ice-pack for that huge welt from beating his head against a brick wall.

Another episode, eh?

Re:Idiots!!!

[Maestro4k]

• If you had paid attention to this when we were all screaming at you 4 or 5 years ago this wouldn't be a problem now. Instead you opted for the head-in-the-sand technique and needed to be strongarmed by a computer hardware and software manufacturer.

This is something I've posted about too. People are still saying "vote with your wallet" but as far as the RIAA is concerned they don't listen! Sales are down, piracy is up, lawsuits from the RIAA against downloaders are rampant, downloading continue to rise. A freaking lobotomized baboon could figure out that people are voting with their wallets and the product (CDs) are overpriced. Yet the RIAA still whines how piracy is killing them and looks at things like thid DualDisc crap to charge even more. Will sales go up then? Nope, I'll bet they'll drop even more once they switch to all Dualdisc. They'll likely make sure all Dualdisc releases cost at least a couple of bucks higher than a CD would.

DVDs with music videos and stuff are available now, you can get them at Wal-mart. I worked in Electronics for a year at a local Wal-mart and we sold maybe 1-2 of those every quarter. People aren't that interested in concert footage, music videos (which are mostly just concert footage nowadays) and stuff. They want music and at a reasonable price. They want singles, they want to stop being ripped off. Dualdisc addresses absolutely none of the concerns and desires of customers and addresses all of the greed of the recording industry.

In Australia...

[leonbrooks]

...we have our own methods for dealing with line-crossers.

My life is ruined!

[leonbrooks]

we do not get the opportunity to buy it.

Yaaargh! How can I possibly go in living if that happens?

</sarcasm> Translation: BFHD, who needs it?

Cool.

[Anonymous Coward]

Like loopback.jpg?

I really like this headline

[petard]

and am, sadly, absolutely not the AC who submitted it :-)

Re:I really like this headline

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but are you aware of the origins of the term petard?

Check out this post by Fishstick earlier in the thread :)

I always thought it just meant explosive. Kinda strange to see it meant heavy flatulence (and the French still use pet for fart) :)

And render useless with one scratch...

[leonbrooks]

...across the TOC. Oh, well. (-:

Most of the CDs you buy aren't anywhere near full, either. Rip and re-burn one, then hold the clone up to the light and see. Unless it's got extra digital content, the commercial CDs are rarely more than 1/3-1/2 full.

For example "Thick as a Brick" - the full version - is a 43-minute song. Yes, one song. That's the entire album, on an 80-minute medium.

You should be able to get over 4000 typical high-bitrate Ogg tracks onto a dual-layer DVD. You could probably fit the entire music industry into a carryall.

Re:And render useless with one scratch...

[gmhowell]

Link, please? Are you referring to 'Thick as a Brick' by Jethro Tull? Perhaps a concert version was 43 minutes long, but I don't recall ever seeing a 33rpm record (state of the art at the time of the release) that allowed 43 minutes of material on one side.

(And if you've got an mp3 source, that would really rock. I was toying earlier with an all 'Layla' playlist on my iPod, but what would really kick ass would be 'all the long versions'. Layla, Court of the Crimson King, In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida (I have a three minute single version of that somewhere. Yuck.) and so on.)

(Speaking of long live versions, my father saw Clapton perform Layla for a ninety minute set once. I think every band member got a 5-10 minute solo.)

Re:And render useless with one scratch...

[MostlyHarmless]

Yep, I have the 43-minute Thick as a Brick, too. No link, but it's out there on the filesharing networks (gnutella, at least).

Re:And render useless with one scratch...

[zeet]

By the by, I just looked at the MP3 I made of my 'Thick As A Brick' CD, bought in the mid-90s. 43:36. It feels, when played, just a touch like there's a break in the middle, a pause if you will, thematically. I suspect it was timed out that way so it would nicely split on to an LP.

Hard-hit isn't what they _are_...

[leonbrooks]

...it's what they _do_. Read Terry Pratchett's "Soul Music" for a giggle.

Honestly, a solution to their problem!

[Orion Blastar]

Issue two discs. One a standard CD, and the other a DVD. It costs them like what, 50 cents to burn a CD? Maybe $2 to burn a DVD? It will cost them more in R&D and legal fees to get a dual-format disk.

Using the Wisdom of Solomon, this problem is solved! Split it in two, and have two disks!

Re:Honestly, a solution to their problem!

[drinkypoo]

Continuing today's streak of pedantry (but not petardry - well arguably, that too) commercial discs are not burned, they are pressed, kind of like vinyl, only different. (It is possible to "cut" vinyl with a machine, which is much like burning a CD, only even more different.)

Re:Honestly, a solution to their problem!

[Anonymous Coward]

But then I can separate the cd and the dvd. Keep the dvd and give away the cd.

Also if the dvd and the cd are the same title and music (just different quality levels - imagine them doing that, making somebody who just wants a cd buy the dvd version also - to keep the price up), then there are 2 copies of the music floating around.

Online-eable rights

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps the Libertarians have a prespective on this issue? Or perhaps we can give them one.

www.badnarik.org

Bazaaaaa

oh yeah, and www.kexp.org

Re:Online-eable rights

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.badnarik.org/ and http://www.kexp.org/ www.kexp.org huh/?

I have one of these...

[p0d]

I have a hybrid CD/DVD disc already. I got it about 4 years ago. One side is a CD audio mix, the other side is a DVD-Video mix. Click here to check it out It is an import (if you are in the US) though, so maybe that has something to do with it.

No.

[Anonymous Coward]

The verb hoist in the old cliché is actually the past tense of the mostly-archaic hoise , which was eventually replaced by its past tense in common usage (much like what's happening to lie and lay today). Believe it or not, the Slashdot editors actually got an English phrase right for once!

Correction

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean, "If you've been hoist by your own petard". See hoise .

Subtle...

[Duhavid]

Sounds to me that the RIAA wants to move consumers ( and I use that word specifically ) off of CD's and on to DVD's, where they can take away the fair use of the material due to DCMA. See, first they need to get the players out there, without canabalizing their existing base. So, they do both, wait till there are enough players for the DVD side "out there", then drop the CDs.

...meanwhile, back at the rach...

[Anonymous Coward]

...consumers busily burn entire collections of mp3s to DVD in anticipation of in car MP3 player and home stero/entertainment systems' firmware becomming data filesystem aware.

Yes, it is silly...

[Kjella]

...people would never pay the same $$$/track as for a plain CD. Not even with a quantity discount. This actually reminds me of a post I replied to earlier, which basicly said "if they were selling it at a fraction of the price, I'd be willing to pay for it". Doh.

Try taking some basic economic theory. At any price point, there is always someone willing to pay more than $0, yet it is not profitable to offer it to them. Why? Because 100k albums at $10/album is still more than 110k albums at $8/album. From your own, stupid point of view, it would appear like this "I'm willing to pay $8 for this album, they're selling it for $10, hence they must be losing $8." That is NOT the way it works.

Claiming they don't offer what you want is more often than not an excuse to not pay the price for the product you request. By common consensus, the price of the plastic disc is ~0$. So you could buy a bunch of CDs, put them on a dual layer DVD. Would you be willing to pay the price? No? Well then that is the problem, not that they don't offer dual layer DVDs.

Kjella

Re:Yes, it is silly...

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'm willing to pay $8 for this album, they're selling it for $10, hence they must be losing $8."

Isn't that *exactly* the RIAA's complaint, though?

"They aren't willing to pay $15 for the CD, so we're losing $15!"

Just curious at the paralell - may use it in my defense of copyright violation....

Idiots.

[Anonymous Coward]

"The idea is to put music on the CD side and concert, interview or recording session video on the DVD."

HOW ABOUT, OH, I DUNNO, THE MUSIC VIDEO TO GO WITH THE SONG?

Because that's the only thing that would get me to buy these new DVD hybrid discs. I could not give two sh*ts about an interview with the musician, or how the song was recorded, and concerts bore me as well.

I want a Weird Al CD which has all the songs in CD format so I can play it in my car, and all the music videos to go with the songs so I can watch them on rare occasions. I know they sell music videos on DVD already seperately, but I have never, and will never buy one, because the number of times I plan to watch said video is in the range of once a year. It would make a nice extra if it came free with the CD, but I would NEVER spend $20 for the videos alone.

My god...

[Anonymous Coward]

"but retailer Harrington said there were no issues. "We got a couple of emails, but nobody came back to us with them," he said."

Let me get this straight... If I cimplain by email to a company instead of returning the defective product or complaining in person, that translates to NO PROBLEMS?

Re:My god...

[toriver]

Of course! If you don't return it, they still have your money.

are you sure about that?

[ALpaca2500]

hmm, i was confused by the statement 'they have been unable to offer' these discs, because i have seen them in stores. but i guess boston (and the surrounding areas) must have been a test market, according to the article.

besides that, this is stupid. i hate double sided discs, (the only ones i've seen so far are movies with a fullscreen and widescreen verison on a single DVD). i like the idea of bundling a separate cd and dvd in one package, what's wrong with sticking with that model?

Why stuff around

[Anonymous Coward]

DvD Audio I repeat Dvd Audio disks could be merged with a Dvd Vidio just like a data cd and audio cd. Yes it would mean all our cd players would be junk but hey why stuff around making something like a double side disks.

Why am I supposed to hate the recording industry?

[mildness]

All I can say is it couldn't happen to a nicer bunch!"

Not a Troll, I seriously don't understand the hatred of this industry. Are they any more abusive of thier employees and customers than any other?

Enlighten me.

Bill

Buy the music vid DVD and get the CD for it free

[iamcf13]

If you buy Weird Al music videos DVD (or anybody else's) you get the music for them as the 'soundtrack' of the DVD at no additional cost. Just be sure to rout the DVD audio through your home theater/stereo system and keep the TV turned off.

The only drawbacks to this method is that there might be Weird Al songs that he *didn't* make music videos for or the music video version of a song is different than the one on the actual music CD.

Food for thought.

Re:Why am I supposed to hate the recording industr

[jdaily]

The movie and music recording industries have committed several major sins:

• Lobbying to make anything that could infringe on copyright illegal.
• Lobbying to make illegal any activities that could later lead to copyright infringement.
• Pushing to cripple computer hardware (i.e. DRM) to protect against copyright infringement.
• Lobbying to extend copyright well past the point at which an objective observer would agree is "limited" as the founding fathers intended.
• Treating the Internet as something to be sued into oblivion as opposed to something to be embraced.
• Acting in collusion to keep prices artificially high.
• Using their oligopoly powers to impoverish musicians.

Have I missed anything? I'm sure there's a few more issues that could be dredged up.

Why you hate the recording industry.

[teamhasnoi]

Well, if you're a musician you hate them because they will only give you a contract on their terms, they promise to distribute and market your record and don't, they will cheat you out of every cent you make and send you a bill for it, they will put you in a holding pattern for as long as they can if they want to keep you away from other labels yet not release your record.

They assume ownership of music that is not theirs, yet blast you with lawyers if you desire to sample music of theirs. They encourage the flavor of the month, but will not invest in the long term career of an artist. They pay radio stations to play what they want you to buy, leaving less or no room for music not controlled by them.

(Hours later)

If you're a customer, you hate them because they treat you like a thief, they only admit the right of Fair Use when backed into a corner, they lobby incessantly for backwards technologies that make the act of listening, using, and enjoying music difficult if not impossible. They push format after format yet say the new format hurts sales. They preach that you can't own a CD - only license it from them, yet won't replace a scratched CD because you own it.

(yet more hours later)

If you're a /.er, you hate them for their fake statistics, their inflation of CD burner speeds to number of burners to make piracy sound like a larger problem than it is. You hate them because they fail to address the issues at hand, and attack 'straw men' of their choosing. You hate them because your favorite band broke up after being dicked around by some A&R guy. You hate them because they make backing up your CD collection annoying, difficult, illegal and tainted with 'cracker' spin. You hate them because they lie, they cheat, they steal, they are a monopoly and they use their power to keep others from competing on a equal footing. They have the ear of congress, and use it to make you a criminal - whether you are 'stealing' or not.

(hey is the sun coming up)

There you have it Bill. Consider yourself enlightened. There are more stories out there, and not that hard to find. Enlighten yourself, and see what happens when people sell other people art.

And people might likely pay quite a bit for it

[PotatoHead]

given the right mix of music...

They could put this on a website and let folks choose their own! No bandwidth issues, just a card number, and a bit of shipping.

Been there, done that.

[System.out.println()]

There's actually already a solution to this.... the iTunes Music store. you can burn all the AAC's onto a DVD and voila!

Or, of course, you can just transfer them to your iPod.

Re:Buy the music vid DVD and get the CD for it fre

[huchida]

Is Weird Al really the best example you could come up with?

Just askin'.

Re:Why am I supposed to hate the recording industr

[toriver]

Are they any more abusive of thier employees and customers than any other?

Probably not - if you compare with cocaine drug barons and Mexican border slave-farms.

Be entlightened, ignorant one!

Retarded IP

[danila]

If only this served as a lesson to RIAA/MPAA/everyone else that patents, trademarks (and copyright too!) do stiffle innovation. If this idea occured to pirates, they would be happily printing such disks in millions without worrying about those pesky patents. But RIAA must suffer from long negotiation with those damn lawyers and the technology that might have saved them (i.e. offering something valuable with CDs to differentiate their product from MP3s) goes unused.

Re:Retarded IP

[tehcyder]

patents, trademarks (and copyright too!) do stiffle (sic) innovation

That's a pretty sweeping generalization.

Why would any company do their own R&D when they could just use someone else's if there were no patents?

How would branding and marketing work with no trademarks?

Who would pay any artist/musician for their work if there was no copyright?

Most people would reasonably protest about the current levels of abuse of all these things but you can not just sweep them all aside with one big broom.

Re:Retarded IP

[danila]

I should have said "sometimes" or "often" stifle innovation.

But to be honest, I believe the economy would work just fine even without IP at all. For example, R&D will still be done to get a competitive edge, only the results will be kept as trade secrets instead of being patented. The inventors will still be able to license their inventions, they will simply be protected with confidentiality clauses in contracts, not by patents. In those few cases when patents help, they might be granted as an exception, the work may be financed by the public or something else can be done.

Branding would obviously not work, but that doesn't mean trademarks are necessary (especially product trademarks, company trademarks make a little bit more sense). Generic product names work just fine, and you can still inform the customer by including the name of your company and the state/industry standard of the product (if there is one). If someone includes the name of your company, they can easily be sued for misleading the consumer.

As for copyrights, we've been over this many times. Artists/musicians will be paid either by the public or by those individuals that particularly like their work. There are reasons to believe that this will profoundly change art, and possible to the better. A lot of commercial junk won't be created, while truly good works will easily get funding from patrons, after which they will be distributed more widely than today. So the end result might turn out to be more free and quality art for the public than today. And nothing prevents the public from financing particularly useful works via state funding. Again, there are some exceptions, where limited forms of copyright might be useful.

But overall the IP protections are far from necessary. The original laws got it right, it was "to promote the progress", not "to make progress possible". Copyright should have been used sparingly and only where it really helps.

FreeBSD already done it

[fishbot]

I had (have, somewhere) a FreeBSD 4.3 ina DVD box with two disks - a double sided CD, and a combination DVD-CD. I have never had read issues with this.

Re. the story, all I can say is *smirk*.

A very, very long time.

[Gordonjcp]

I wonder how long it would be, if they started selling CD/DVD blanks, before some little shop in China started shipping a player that could read or write both sides of such a disk simultaneously or sequentially without flipping the disk

I doubt it could be done simultaneously. Think about it - one side of the disc is going to be turning the wrong way. Sequentially you could do - just spin the disc "backwards" for the other side.

You *could* read both sides simultaneously by holding the disc still and rotating the beam, using a spinning prism.

MP3s on DVDs

[dmanny]

There is obviously no technical reason that MP3s should not be usuable on DVD media in virtually every DVD player. It is only a matter of what the firmware does when encountering such a disc. There very well may be some players out there that will (portable or not) and there very well may be hacked firmware for some players to _help_ in this area. I would welcome comments giving examples that do work.

Unfortunately I can tell you that my new Sony 400 disc changer only does MP3s on CD media. I tried a DVD, it popped up a message on the order of 'cannot play this disc'. This has been my only disappointment with the unit but was not unexpected.

It seems pretty assine to me. Giving more priority to the media type than the content is like a human reader claiming they can't read a language on a computer screen, they can only read paper while reading other things off a screen just fine. (Perhaps this analogy will provoke some interesting examples of difficulty with screens.)

Also, I know what you mean about the radio. Currently commercial pop music broadcasting sucks - especially when compared to its past. And not necessarily its recent past, either. This means that there are kids of the age to be buying quite a bit of material that have never known much of vibrant broadcast music scene.

I encourage you to seek out public/university stations and look for locally produced music shows. From your mention of Clear Channel, I assume you are in the US. While it is somewhat difficult going cross country, the lower FM frequencies are the best place to start.

I don't think enough emphasis is given to the poor quality of radio when considering the record industry's alledged market woes. It used to be that there was a much more active radio environment showing off their wares. The problem with 'One CD fits all' is that it doesn't and if you don't produce a large variety, you saturate the buying public.

Re:MP3s on DVDs

[dmanny]

Your post got me thinking of this again. I tried googling for the phrase "DVD of MP3s". It got only 16 displayable results, many of which were people bemoaning the same situation as I have. However, there was at least one UK post about a player that does do OK, Ronin or some such. I just bought and am out of the market for a while but still interested.

Re:MP3s on DVDs

[MSZ]

Take a look at generic chinese-made DVD players. These are made to play any disc you put in...

I have one of those (right, I'm a cheapskate) and it plays MP3 on DVD. Only problem is that it's slow to read file names and display them in menu. Thing is called Manta 001 (it is local branding for CEE I think, so you won't rather find it under this name in the US).

And of course, first place on the feature list on the box was "region free".

Re:MP3s on DVDs

[dmanny]

Thanks, I'll keep an eye out for that one. The Sony supplanted my first player which fairly well fits your description of 'generic Chinese'. It was upgradable to turn off macrovision and made region free. I haven't tried my DVD of MP3's on it yet. My two year-old broke the front off of the disc drawer as well as cracking the outside edge of a commercial disc Grandma had just bought. That is why I went to the 400-disc changer. The new player is up and out of reach. Consequently it will be the main player for some time to come.

Flippin'

[uberdave]

After a long hard day of flippin burgers, do I really want to come home and flip disks?

The record companies are bastards?

[Tom_Yardley]

Let us recap. Your friends had several contracts to choose from. They picked one and signed it. Later, they did not like the contract. Isn't that more their fault than the fault of the record company?

Re:Buy the music vid DVD and get the CD for it fre

[iamcf13]

Any artist will do. Weird Al Yankovic was used in the original post I was replying to.

Don't blame me, blame the writer of the parent post I replied to.

Karma!

[Tezkah]

No no... this is a good example of karma. The cosmic kind, not the Slashdot kind. :)

Also, I made fun of my dad hitting his head on these waterslides we were at, and then hit my head twice. Karma can really hurt sometimes. >.>

Ah, a GMail address!

[leonbrooks]

Does this mean I can email the entire song to you as a WAV file? (-:

Pretty sure I have an MP3 or Ogg of it kicking around, something like 37MB even then.

Re:Ah, a GMail address!

[gmhowell]

Would be a fun test. Send all three, and maybe a .au file just to be sure. Oh, and a Mac system beep format.

Re:Why am I supposed to hate the recording industr

[tehcyder]

The thing to remember is that the average age on /. is somewhere under 18. Music really matters to you at that age. You probably think you will be in some sort of group.

It's a love-hate sort of thing, I'd say.