Slashdot Mirror
A Glimpse Into the World of Japanese Animation
Pixelgroove writes "CGNetworks sports a story by Justin Leach (Softimage Special Projects Division), who had a unique chance to work at Production I.G in Japan on Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence and Kill Bill: Vol. 1. Prior to leaving Japan, he interviewed the Production I.G computer graphics animation team about their thoughts and perspectives on Japanese Animation (anime)."
its Quong Ho Thoc
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
That would be Vietnamese not Japanese.
I still wanna know why yahoo yanked broadcast.com's huge array of movies. Lots of good anime in there. check archive.org if you dont believe me.
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I'm only asking because I want to masturbate to it!
Now this is what I call front page material.
Any normal slashdot article would have about 50-100 comments by now. This one has 5 (4 of which are trolls).
Anime should be in its own section, IMHO. Its only here because of Taco's love of it. I really don't consider it a 'nerdy' thing. Sure, lotsa geeks are anime fanboys, and some actually enjoy the plots and stuff in the movies, but it really doesn't fit in with technology and science in my opinion.
So I say give it its own section so Taco can keep up with it, and it can avoid the frontpage... the other option would be to create a new site, I dunno, call it animefu, and have Taco put all his anime stuff on it....
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
I'm personally more impressed with Afghanimation.
I could have written then thing myself.
His key influences are "from [my childhood] era"??? C'mon!!!! May the interviewer learn to dig deeper.
I know it can be hard to get any information from a Japanese person. They depend so heavily on the assumption that you already know everything that you learn almost nothing. So you have to be a little more artful and sometimes much more exact when you ask a question, or series of questions. And since the interviewer was not Japanese or even asian, he could pull off a lot more by playing the role of the ignorant and rude gaijin and asking ever more direct questions often repeatedly.
I hardly consider this to be a glimpse at all... not even a cursory blink. I didn't expect to hate that one so much.
I am so sorry, Michael-san, but I think that this interview is a load of crap. It may be about anime but as an interview and background about some decidedly good anime it just won't do. For instance: "This is a promiscuous story of a lonesome "ghost" of a man, who nevertheless seeks to retain humanity. Innocence... That's what life is." about Ghost in the shell:2. What the hell is a promiscuous story? One that screws around? What do you mean "that's what life is"? Life is not about being artificial and trying to retain humanity. This kind of pseudo-intellectualism really irritates me. It tells me nothing about the movie, its background or why it should be interesting. And this: "What are your goals for the future? My goal is to establish CG in a unique 'Production I.G' style, and introduce it to the world. Because of this, I like to learn about everything earnestly. I want to live and work with pride, respect people, treasure the nature and cherish my country." He definitely seems like a nice guy, respecting Nature and all that, but what does he want to do with CG? What's so unique about the style? Does he also want to learn about quantum mechanics earnestly then? Et cetera, et cetera. Vapid. Enough ranting, but please, let's have some more interesting stuff on slashdot, shall we?
----- One learns to itch where one can scratch.
And he great-grandparent troll is using a chinese name anyways.
Well GITS2 just started playing its second and last screening at the Toronto International Film Fest about the same time this article appeared on the /.'s page... And I'm stuck at work. Trying to wait a few more days!
Is 2D animation dead?
GREAT way to start an interview. "Hi, is your career worthless?"
"Uh, no. There are over 400 animation studios in Japan. That's why we own your animation market too."
"You don't need to learn how to draw to become a 3D creator, that's the biggest reason."
Genius. Spectacular insight, and it neatly wraps up the 3D vs 2D hype comparison.
Anime is doing to the animation market here exactly what import cars did to the automobile market in the 70s. Japanese studios are making enormous amounts of money in a market which has been abandoned by Disney, et al., because U.S. companies only believe "you get what you pay for" if they are setting the price. Disney just got through taking a giant shit on their own animation studios which had been drawing on some EIGHTY YEARS of expertise. These people had devoted their entire careers to their craft, but Disney just couldn't stop whining that they weren't getting a 40000% return on the sequel of the week.
Anime is probably just about to pass the $5 billion mark annually, and manga is now at $100 million, and we're early in the third inning. The competition is over. Anime is the animation market.
Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
I could understand the initial charm of Anime, back in the '80s. I remember when Akira first came out in the cinema and caused quite a stir with its futuristic, Blade Runner Neo-Tokyo setting, engrossing storyline and revolutionary computer graphics mixed in traditional cell animation. I could see then why Anime and Manga were popular - they were fresh and interesting and the Japanese perspective, the different cultural traditions, made for cartoons which could really surprise you, or make you laugh, thinking "What the hell was THAT all about?".
But they've only grown in popularity and I find it surprising that so many slashdotters seemed to have jumped on the bandwagon. There was an odd dichotomy the other day with a story article about outsourcing alongside one about a new anime which made me uneasy, and I tried to reason out why. Do you guys not realise that there are fantastic American cartoons out there, that you could spend your money on as well?
The thing that worries me is that a lot of kids cartoons are imported direct from Japan. And they're the future consumers so things will only get worse. They've got pretty shoddy animation, panning across one cell for example, but because they are the anime style, they're popular. It's the mindless following of a particular style that gets to me, and I see it a lot in the anime fans on Slashdot. *Anything* anime is news. How often do you see any other style of animation being publicised on the main page?
How is a slashbot mindlessly buying japanese anime regardless of the quality different from a CEO of a large company mindlessly outsourcing to India regardless of the quality? They're both going offshore without looking at other alternatives, because it's suddenly fashionable. But on slashdot, anime cheerleading (zealotry is too strong a word) is good, but outsourcing is hideously evil. There's a bit of hypocrisy going on here, in my opinion.
Look into the American alternatives.
Meine Schwester ist sehr, sehr reizvoll - Nietzsche
Its nice seeing the studio execs learning that its better (more profitable) to sell a product that consumers want when its hot instead of waiting two or three years and complaning about downloaders in the meantime.
I am very thankful for such a wonderful cultural export from Japan. The article discussions Western animation and how the interviewees feel about it. While we (Americans) produce popular, and beautifully animated, CG work, I do not think it even compares to Japanese anime (either hand-drawn or CG).
I watch American animated movies by Pixar, Dreamworks, and the like, when I need to watch something light and uplifting. Afterwords I think to myself "Okay, that was fun", then never think about the movie again. There aren't many movies geered towards adult audiences. With Japanese anime, I'm touched at a deeper level and often left amazed at the storylines. Of course, I'm not talking about the comedy or under 13 series. I still think about series that I've watched years ago, trying to figure out the meaning behind them. Even movies/series coming out now in America from Japan have plots that I believe only the Japanese are capable of creating. After watching a series, I continue to think about its meaning and am left with a wonderful satisfying feeling. That's missing from the American movies (and definately not even close with any cartoon series).
It is the cultural aspect of anime that makes it so appealing, and I'll continue to go purchase anime DVD's, which is now far larger than my American collection.
This is a very interesting response, especially considering how heavily the work of Production IG is identified with popular anime, when it's a very different animal. In essence, IG's work has been built from collecting style and method, spending years experimenting with computer-assisted cel and true 3D modeling animation. The work they produce might as well be considered experiments performed in the course of learning the art. They have graduated to distinguished player in their field.
Mizutani's answer is a wee bit wrong due to a culturally interior viewpoint: Ghost in the Shell addresses universal themes from a very Japanese perspective, striking to an international audience and a source of great appeal. These movies need not be cute and brightly colored to prove their appeal. Production IG has no need to prove that they are Japanese. Perhaps Mizutani is more expressing the continuing evolution of the Japanese cultural identity in the face of internationalism?
And yes, I know "anime" simply means "animation" in its original usage. Consider that shifting definition evidence of our own adaptation.
This is kind of off-topic, but I recently had a discussion with some friends of mine where I mentioned how much my kids like "The Iron Giant." Surprisingly, everyone piped up and expressed similar affection for the film. The discussion went from there to the decline of Disney under Eisner, and the decline of American animation in general. (I belive Pixar has done some amazing work, but there was disagreement over this.)
Long story short, the consensus was reached that "The Iron Giant" was the last great hand-animated film by an American studio. Symbolically, this was also the last feature-length film made by WB's animation studios. Every great animated feature film since then has been almost exclusively Japanese.
Grave of the Fireflies brought the horrors of war home even more than Saving Private Ryan
PlanetES showed a future both frightening and hopeful.
Kimi Ga Nozomu Eien showed that happiness and sadness are not distinct states but often show up together.
Full Moon wo Sagashite showed that friendship might end in tragedy, but also that friendship is the the only defense against tragedy that we have.
There are others, but the fact that I can see another culture with all of its bizarre but beautiful aspects is what keeps me watching it.
Watashi wa anime ga kirai desu. But then again, I'm not really a fan of Manga either. I just don't like the style of over emphasizing every emotion.
Well, first of all, I'd like to point out that the article isn't really about Japanese animation. It is about what people's attitudes are that work on Japanese animation, and how they are they perceive themselves as being different from Western animation.
One thing to note about Japanese animation itself is that they try very hard to maintain the traditional style while using new tools. Anybody that has watched anime the last couple years will note the marked improvement of visual quality (especially of TV shows) over those made 7 years ago. Interestingly, the CG style (works like Toy Story, Monsters Inc., Shrek) are not as popular in Japan as the are in America. People on the Production I.G. seem to blame that on character design issues (hard to create a look for characters that they feel is compelling).
Something that I wish would be incorporated in American animation is a wish that more of American animation said something about us. About who we are as a people, and how we view ourselves in the world. In short, say something about our culture. Production I.G. animators say they wish Japanese animation better reflected Japan. I share that wish only with respect to American animation relating to America.
What is interesting is how this matches up with outsourcing. Animation is a work of art. If we export animation to India or Korea, how do expect the animation to reflect our culture? (Of course, it might speak loads about our culture, but not in a good way). This isn't a unique thought, I was watching "The Otherside of Outsourcing" and they talked about Indians learning computer animation. They commentator noted how he thought that it was important that Indians did something about their own culture and not just pieces for other countries. Just something I thought I'd tie in.
The last suggestion for Western animation is to stop the "soft-biggotry of low expectations" towards our kids. Most CG films (like Shrek) are good at making a story that is reasonably complex and the characters seem real, with real conflicts and are not cardboard cut-outs. But, our TV shows really need some work. It might be because they are usually totally episodic, which curtails character development. But, I really think we need to show characters with depth and real conflict (emotional and otherwise). If we don't, we really aren't helping their development. So, in a sense, we are raising them quite literally on kiddie porn.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -Homer Simpson
I say have a poll to determine whether or not anime shows up on front page. If the Aye's have it, so be it. If not, put it in its own section. Maybe it's just me (and FortKnox), but I just don't see how anime fits in with the regular Slashdot news. Then again, we have been getting a lot of advertisements lately...
On the other hand, this is his website to do with how he pleases. Maybe we should all migrate to Kuro5hin instead. If Slashdot had story moderation, they could probably get away with a static front page.
when my anime-induced seizures start. I can deal with the artwork. I can deal with the stories. What I can't deal with is the lack of fluidity in the motion of "anime"tion. It really looks like they cut corners and use two, maybe three frames per second so they can churn out movies like puppy mills. It hurts my eyes. Remember the Killer Japanese Seizure Robots?
-- Mace only makes me hornier.
If you live in the San Francisco Bay Area in California, there is an anime fair tomorrow and Sunday at the Japan Town center!
More info JTAF.com
I recently read an interesting quote by animation historian Michael Barrier, in his recent interview with John K. (Ren and Stimpy): "It's one of animation's curses that so many people insist that there is only one way to make a cartoon-- the Disney-feature way, the Clampett way, the UPA way, or whatever-- when in fact the medium's resources are so large." Of course, he wasn't talking about anime when he said this, but he might as well have been.
I like good anime and manga a helluva lot, sure, but I also like good American and European animation. Just as I like both 2D and 3D work, as long as it's done well. All have their merits-- unfortunatly, a lot of anime's boosters can't get that simple fact through their thick skulls -_-;
Everyone is so enthralled with japanese culture and anime. Frankly, it's the same other way around.
Sounds like a troll don't it.
As Americans, you're accustomed to what western animaion can present to you, famliar plot lines, personalities, endings, etc. This is because this is American culture. The people creating it, have been raised in American culture. It's a famliarity we're used to, some of us are sick of it.
Ergo, why Japanese animation is so appealing. It's a different culture. Nothing's familiar, it has you thinking. You're no longer left with your mind going numb and being able to predict what comes next. To most Americans, Japanese culture is a complete mystery and what comes next in an anime scene is unique and refreshing.
Of course, it's well accepted since it's a cultural difference that's presenting this fresh perspective. Whereas, if an American tried to do something fresh and innovative, they can be drilled as a tool, or cop out, etc. It's harder to push boundaries from inside the box.
Japanese animation style is something that can offer American viewers that's nearly orthagonal to what they're sick of seeing in American animation.
Ironically, Japanese animation origin comes from American animation with a Japanese twist. Export enough culture and it comes back to us as another country's import? =D
I thought Kill Bill didn't have any CGI work. Wasn't it a deliberate choice by Tarantino?
Patriotism - the last resort of scoundrels.
Lose your life.
What a lot of you flamers don't understand is the amazing plots in the anime films. It's not all about CG but here in the U.S. that's what Hollywood is good at so that's all they do.
The style is unique and culturally revealing. For instance, I have never been to Japan but now I know that women there are attracted to large, tentacled creatures. Also, Japanese men's penises are often "pixelated".
...the consensus was reached that "The Iron Giant" was the last great hand-animated film
Dude, the Iron Giant was cel-rendered CGI.
Your hybrid is not saving the environment. Its purpose is to make you feel good about buying something.
Really?
When was the last, serious, character based, multi episode american animated tv show?
I am talking about a single story told through several weekly episodes.
No, really. tell me.
...does not appear to be for its artistic or stylistic values.
a friend of mine, a director at AIC repeatedly laments: "We are soooooo cheap!".
budgets for anime are very low, animation companies are often in dire financial situations. CG is a way to reduce production costs, not necessarily produce better quality animation or better overall product.
Hey let's not neglect the two big canadian animation studios of mainframe and nelvana. ALthough mainly geared towards a much younger audience and having limited penetration into the US (besides PBS) they both have won international recognition.
Wired had an interesting article about japanese animation. It's about three new movies including ghost in the shell. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.09/anime.htm l?pg=2&topic=(none)&topic_set=(none)
Mod me offtopic please.
Just came from ghost in the shell inocence at the Toronto film festival. Pretty terrible, pretentious, slow, repetitive, and dull. Check out standalone complex if you want an interesting storyline or characters.
I guess the only reason he made a movie was to prosthelitize. sigh...
If it's anything like Stand Alone Complex, it's using CG to make better animation that looks hand-drawn. CG in the US has a distinct look, totally different from hand drawn animation. In SAC, CG was used to create very smooth motion that would normally take a lot of frames, along with all the color changes that occur when an object moves around.
The only other place I've seen this used is in Futurama, which seemed to have the same idea.
Seriously though, I don't see why length should be a factor when it comes to animated series (whatever the origin). There are some amazing, thought-provoking films out there that are only a few minutes long (check out the indie animation scene, which is full of them), and then you have long-winded series that are 13 to 26 episodes long and end up boring the socks off of you (Gundam Wing and Mahoromatic being two in my particular case).
Using length as a yardstick for quality doesn't quite measure up. At any rate, I'm guessing that the reason more American studios aren't going this route is because it's cheaper to import these types of series from Japan :P
(stretching a complex story throughout an entire series) with Gargoyles.
No, the storyline on Gargoyles didn't persist through the whole series. Like many American scifi shows (Star Trek*, Buffy, etc), they started with 3-5 episodes of continuity, then settle down for generally unrelated adventures, and end the season with 2-4 more contiuous eps to finish off the "main" storyline. More importantly, the Gargoygles series lasted far past the end of the story, with the "magic boat travelling to a random place each week" concept.
However, in terms of continuity, Gargoyles was head&shoulders above most other USA cartoons (and even live action shows). The fact that they even HAD an audio clip for "Previously on Gargoyles" proves it.
Using length as a yardstick for quality doesn't quite measure up.
It's often highly accurate. The more hours you need to fill, the lower the ratio of quality ideas to filler. In general, theatrical films are better than TV miniseries, which are better than weekly TV programs, which are better than daily soap operas. (Consider how many people enjoyed the Spiderman movie, who wouldn't have considered viewing the cartoon or comic book. They expected, correctly, that the movie would be be more enjoyable, with a higher concentration of originality)
One great advantage of Japanese TV programs (including but not limited to anime), in comparison to American TV, is that from the beginning, the producer is planning for the end. There is a conclusion planned for the 13th, 26th, or 52nd episode, and everything progresses along towards there**. Whereas American television is based on the idea of dragging it out until the ratings sink away.
13 to 26 episodes long and end up boring the socks off of you
Witch Hunter Robin is a recent series of 26 episodes that only had enough content for 7.
* Golly, I wonder why Gargoyles reminded me of Star Trek?
** Juvenile toy shows like Pokemon and Yugioh are exceptions, as is Doreamon.
Japanimation is plain old creepy. Show me a 30+ year old male that is an anime fan and I'll show you a guy that is into -- or will eventually be into -- kiddie porn.
You know that many guys into kiddie porn? You really should hang out with nicer people.
In the 80s, the geeks I knew called it "japanimation".
Now the japanese loan word for animation - appropriately I guess since it was a loan - has been re-imported and seems to be used instead. Even the video stores (which used to have "Japanimation" sections) have switched to "anime".
Personally, I prefer "Japanimation", it's more colorful and descriptive than "anime". To Japanese, "anime" means Disney and The Simpsons as well as Project A-Ko and Yu Yu Hakusho. Using their loan word to only refer to the Japanese variety is a little strange. For instance, does Japanese coffee also warrant being classifed as "kohi"? It's a very odd situation. Can any American explain it?
Because the best CG work from Japan is made by SquareEnix, Konami, Tecmo, and Capcom.
If you seen the Onimusha 3 opening, it is mind blowing. I would glad to see a feature film that uses the cinematography style of the opening. Robot Communications worked on the opening.
No wonder why the article mentioned that Japanese feature film CG work is relatively 'unknown', the best CG people work on video games instead.
Everyone takes the turnpike, AND, it takes over an hour to get anywhere even if it isn't rush hour.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
enjoy
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
It's in "Anime" and "Movies". You probably haven't disabled "Movies".
+5 Interesting my ass...
DONGS! ^____^ kawaii
This can apply to anime as well (movies are better than OVAs which are better than TV series...). Even Evangelion had a filler episode.
One great advantage of Japanese TV programs (including but not limited to anime), in comparison to American TV, is that from the beginning, the producer is planning for the end. There is a conclusion planned for the 13th, 26th, or 52nd episode, and everything progresses along towards there**. Whereas American television is based on the idea of dragging it out until the ratings sink away.
I will agree with you on this point. There have been experiments with similar types of series planning in American TV (like Invasion: America and 24), but because of the way the business works around here, not too many want to attempt that sort of thing. Doesn't mean single-episode stories are a bad thing-- some animators (I'm thinking mainly of Bruce Timm, Genndy Tartakovsky, and Brad Bird) have used the restrictive format to great effect.
I downloaded it because I wanted to see if it would be worth spending $$$$ to see it. Having watched the download, my decision was as follows:- No point in spending money seeing something I'd only just watched all over again!
Money saved, and sense of justice intact. Sweet!
And as alternatives you give [...] User Friendly.
What's the deal with User Friendly? It's not funny, and it's not even well-drawn.
If the poor quality of the drawings added to some insightful sense of humor (a la Dilbert, where the simplistic drawings are more in tune with the subject matter than Calvin and Hobbes-style art would be), it might work; but it doesn't.
It looks like something a 17 year old might create 20 minutes after picking up a "how to draw cartoons" book, and is truly (and unpleasantly) geeky in that it mistakes making unfunny jokes about geek subjects for genuinely insightful geek humor.
I'm surprised to find that Innocence is marketed in US as the GitS sequel. It is not in Japan, though they do have some connections.
* Golly, I wonder why Gargoyles reminded me of Star Trek?
Since others here might not know, the voices in Gargoyles reads like the ST:TNG cast list--Marina Sirtis, Michael Dorn & Jonathen Frakes are all in there for sure. Not sure if I missed anyone else.
Hell, I still remember seeing it the first time and thinking "man, those voices sound *really* familiar for some reason?" The dichtomy between thinking of Frakes as "number two" and an evil Illuminatus is pretty crazy, too. I keep expecting him to invent a phaser or a photon torpedo to stop the gargoyles in one of the episodes. I did like what they did with the Illuminati, though--always making you wonder whether the Illuminati had actually lost or had some even crazier plan in mind...
They aren't funny because of obscure geek references! Tehy are funny (wow, I just came up with a new spelling for they!) because they say "pee pee", "poo poo", and "Shitcock."
Its toilet humor at its best.
Oh yeah, and user friendly ain't funny at all.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.