Linus Interviewed

Election 2004 by MikeCapone · 2004-10-16 15:02 · Score: 5, Funny

I wonder how many votes Linus will get in this US presidential election...

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Treehugger? Treehugger... Treehugger!

Re:Election 2004 by PhrostyMcByte · 2004-10-16 15:15 · Score: 2, Insightful

You have to be a US-born citizen to run for president.

Also, I think the Microsoft execs would make much better politicians. They already have the BSing part down, not much else to learn.
Re:Election 2004 by haus · 2004-10-16 15:52 · Score: 1

Well as with all things, exception can be made, take for instance that rumbling noise that is being made by those who want to modify the constitution so that Mr. Schwarzenegger would be eligible to be elected President of the United States.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20041008.html

Now weather anything actually comes of this who knows, but under the right circumstances I would not be shocked to be looking at a whole new shooting match in the upcoming years.
Re:Election 2004 by JThundley · 2004-10-16 16:04 · Score: 5, Funny

Linus would never get the numbers as long as there's a CowboyNeal option!
Re:Election 2004 by gbaldwin2 · 2004-10-16 16:13 · Score: 2, Insightful

We had the same rumblings about Henry Kissinger in the '70's. It won't happen
Re:Election 2004 by MikeCapone · 2004-10-16 16:30 · Score: 2, Funny

Henry Kissinger?

Why not Hermann Goering...

--
Treehugger? Treehugger... Treehugger!
Re:Election 2004 by XryanX · 2004-10-16 16:33 · Score: 1

He got 23% of the vote in the kde-look.org poll, thus giving him the majority vote by a percentage point over Kerry.
Re:Election 2004 by somethinghollow · 2004-10-16 16:53 · Score: 2, Funny

why not matt goering?
Re:Election 2004 by somethinghollow · 2004-10-16 16:56 · Score: 4, Funny

Bollocks. I meant Groening. What a shitty joke that turned out to be.
Re:Election 2004 by grimr · 2004-10-16 17:24 · Score: 1

President Schwarzenegger. Just like in Demolition Man....
Re:Election 2004 by arodland · 2004-10-16 17:37 · Score: 1

23% is not a majority. If one candidate has 23% of the votes, and no other candidate has more than 23%, then that is a plurality but by no definition can 23% ever be a majority.
Re:Election 2004 by surprise_audit · 2004-10-16 17:42 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Did that other exception request get anywhere - the one where the election would be postponed "in case of terrorist activity"?? It was a couple of months ago, and I don't think I've heard it repeated since.
Re:Election 2004 by nofx_3 · 2004-10-16 18:21 · Score: 5, Informative

Even better yet is some good old fashioned Gov. VS Gov. deathmatch wrestling in The Running Man (A terrifc movie for those who haven't seen it). There is actually a scene where Schwarzenegger (Gov CA) and Jesse Ventura (Gov MN) duke it out. They can also be seen together in Predator. These are some classic political moments.

-kaplanfx

--
Visualize Whirled Peas
Re:Election 2004 by grozzie2 · 2004-10-16 18:31 · Score: 2, Insightful

Also, I think the Microsoft execs would make much better politicians. They already have the BSing part down, not much else to learn.
Do you really believe that makes them better suited for the job, or does it just make them fit in better with the incumbents?
Re:Election 2004 by XpirateX · 2004-10-16 19:33 · Score: 2, Interesting

A funny thing to note on the "Get The Facts" website: The alt-tag on the top right image reads "Get a free Windows vs Linus evaluation kit".
I'm wondering if Linus (maybe with an abacus?) can outperform a Windows Server 2003 with flux capaciter with multifluxing.
Re:Election 2004 by kinzillah · 2004-10-16 19:43 · Score: 2, Insightful

yes. because kde-look.org is such a good indication of the thoughts of the general population of the US.

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Douglas P. Price
Re:Election 2004 by DunbarTheInept · 2004-10-16 20:45 · Score: 1, Offtopic

One concern I see with this is that if and when such an amendment proposal comes up for vote (and nothing short of an amendment can do it), everyone will know for whom the amendment is being proposed. It will be "This is the Arnie for President amendment" in most people's minds, and thus their decision will be based on their political leanings for or against Arnold (or whomever this ends up being for if it ever happens).

I don't like the idea of a constitutional amendment being determined based only on how it would affect one specific temporary case. It should be determined based on whether or not it is appropriate for all generic instances. For this case, that just isn't going to happen."

My personal take on it is that the duration of citizenship should be fairly long (to make darn sure the candidate sees the US as being "home", and not just "where I'm living for now"), but that birth here should not be mandatory anymore. In today's changing world, waiting an entire generation for eligibility "feels" longer than it did when the Constitution was written. Schwarzenegger has, in my opinion, been a US citizen long enough to be allowed to run. I still wouldn't ever vote for him, but in the interest of fair play that shouldn't influence my opinion on whether or not he should be eligible.

I'd like to see him be allowed to make the attempt, and then be voted down, rather than see him not be allowed to try.

--
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Re:Election 2004 by deaddrunk · 2004-10-16 21:03 · Score: 1

What a crazy idea, an actor becoming US president.....oh hang on.

--
Does a Christian soccer team even need a goalkeeper?
Re:Election 2004 by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 22:03 · Score: 0

Hermann Göring surrounded, went to court and was sentenced to death. Henry Kissinger, on the other hand, is still running free. He has to check with his lawyers when he wants to travel abroad though, so he doesn't accidentally get arrested.
Re:Election 2004 by mickwd · 2004-10-16 23:03 · Score: 2, Funny

Don't worry, we were Groening already.....
Re:Election 2004 by j-pimp · 2004-10-16 23:13 · Score: 1

I don't like the idea of a constitutional amendment being determined based only on how it would affect one specific temporary case.

The 2 term limit was all about FDR. Granted, FDR was grandfathered, but the amendment was put in to prevent another FDR.

As much as I hate America passing term limits because it feels itself to stupid to remove a bad encumbant, I'm glad Clinton isn't feeling our pain at the moment. Then again I'll take him any day over Hillary. Of course I'm in favor of a single 6 year term.

[/soapbox] The fact of the matter is that you will never get such an amendment passed unless people have a specific person in mind.

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--- Justin Dearing http://www.justaprogrammer.net/ We're just programmers.
Re:Election 2004 by Deusy · 2004-10-16 23:42 · Score: 1

You have to be a US-born citizen to run for president.

You mean Arnold will never be president!?

Nooooooooooooooooooo! TRAGEDY!

--
Free Gamer - Free games list and commentary
Re:Election 2004 by tetranz · 2004-10-17 00:02 · Score: 1

You have to be a US-born citizen to run for president.

To be pedantic about it, you probably don't have to be born in the USA but you do need to be an american at birth, ie a "natural born citizen".

Here's a discussion about it:

I've heard vague talk of John McCain running in 2008. The topic would certainly be debated then because he was born in the Panama Canal Zone.
Re:Election 2004 by Yartrebo · 2004-10-17 01:00 · Score: 1

It had been precedent since George Washington that presidents only serve 2 terms. Until FDR, nobody had tried to serve a third term, so an amendment was not needed.
Re:Election 2004 by Yartrebo · 2004-10-17 01:02 · Score: 1

Quite easy when that Windows Server 2003 has been hijacked by the latest spyware, worms, and viruses. All that flux capacitor will do is make even more powerful MS Windows worms.
Re:Election 2004 by JordanH · 2004-10-17 01:34 · Score: 1

As Matt himself points out in one of the "Life in Hell" strips/books, Groening rhymes with complaining.
Re:Election 2004 by damiam · 2004-10-17 01:59 · Score: 1

Technically, you don't have to be a natural-born citizen to run, just to serve, IIRC. Róger Calero, the presidential candidate from the US Socialist Worker's Party, was born in Nicaragua. He expects that, if he wins, the Constitution will be changed to allow him to serve.

--
It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
Re:Election 2004 by XryanX · 2004-10-17 02:50 · Score: 2

Sorry, I forgot that we were only looking for serious replies to a post that was pondering how many votes Linus will get in the election.
Re:Election 2004 by argent · 2004-10-17 03:21 · Score: 1

The Running Man (A terrifc movie for those who haven't seen it)

Someone made a movie about AIX system administration?
Re:Election 2004 by Kalak · 2004-10-17 04:09 · Score: 1

Bugs Bunny beat Bush in that poll.

I also find that really ironic with the gobushcheny.com website is advertised in a banner ad there.....

--
I am, and always will be, an idiot. Karma: Coma (mostly effected by .hack)
Re:Election 2004 by Harry8 · 2004-10-17 04:41 · Score: 1

Was Washington born in the USA?
or was he a migrant?
Re:Election 2004 by dtrent · 2004-10-17 05:32 · Score: 0

I've heard vague talk of John McCain running in 2008. The topic would certainly be debated then because he was born in the Panama Canal Zone.

John McCain already ran for President, so the debate, if there was any, is already over.
Re:Election 2004 by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 07:45 · Score: 0

Well, he was born in Virginia. Obviously it wasn't in the USA at the time, but it would kind of hard to be both 35 years old and born after 1787. :) All of the US presidents who were born prior to the Constitution were born in the colonies that ratified the constitution.
Re:Election 2004 by tmasssey · 2004-10-17 11:02 · Score: 1

All presidents, Washington included, were American born. The requirement was created to prevent Tory-leaning people (who were there even after the Revolution) from electing a Brit; or for that matter, electing a Frenchman (who were allies of the colonists) and reuniting the US with a colonial power.

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Linux IT Consulting and Domino Development in Michigan
Re:Election 2004 by DunbarTheInept · 2004-10-17 19:43 · Score: 1

The 2-term limit didn't take effect until FDR was dead and thus it was not going to affect the specific case that inspired it and thus the people voting on it were thinking only of its application in a potential generic future scenario.

A hypothetical amendment to allow Ahnold to run for president would have to enacted in such a manner that it would affect the specific case that inspired it, not just generic future scenarios.

That is a very relevant difference that makes your analogy a poor one.

--
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Re:Election 2004 by geminidomino · 2004-10-17 23:16 · Score: 1

I was only 2 years old at the time, and even *I* know what a fuckup *that* was!
Re:Election 2004 by ceswiedler · 2004-10-18 10:00 · Score: 1

The AIX Running Man has got to be the silliest GUI thing ever. For those who haven't seen it, when you run a task in the GUI version of SMIT (the system administration tool for AIX), while the script is running, a horrible cartoon man in the upper right corner runs. It's like someone told the world's worst GUI designer, "put something on the screen to tell people it's running," and they took it far too seriously.

The best part is that when the command you're trying fails, the man falls down.
Re:Election 2004 by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-19 14:53 · Score: 0

if you read the constution it has a prevition in it, it says, eather born in the US or a citizin at the time the constution is accepted, condition 2 can no more be meet but it is there.

But, how do you really feel? by erick99 · 2004-10-16 15:03 · Score: 5, Interesting

He doesn't beat around the bush about Microsoft.

I don't think the lawsuits have necessarily made a huge direct difference, but I do think that it has made a lot more people realize that maybe Microsoft wasn't the "American Dream" after all, but just another greedy company that might be better off with some competition. And that probably has opened a few doors.

I think Microsoft has a PR problem. Largely deservedly, I would say.

--
http://www.busyweather.com/

Re:But, how do you really feel? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 15:52 · Score: 2, Funny

I think Microsoft has a PR problem. Largely deservedly, I would say.

Yes, Microsoft has a PR problem, but to call them greedy and anti-American Dream is taking things way too far. Microsoft fucking epitomizes the American Dream.
Microsoft made billions selling licenses to great software, and created a vibrant ecosystem where everyone respects everyone elses intellectual property rights. Linux and other communist-type free software ideals threaten to destroy that ecosystem which employs so many people! Take Econ101.
Re:But, how do you really feel? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 16:19 · Score: 1, Insightful

The scary thing is that a lot people out there believe this bullshit. They think if you cant own something and put a price on it then it has no value. To this day my uncle, who runs a computer repair shop, calls Linux a "communist" operating system. I can't reason with him or others like him.
Re:But, how do you really feel? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 16:19 · Score: 2, Insightful

But microsoft did so with abusive business tactics, not with good, competitive technology.

I love it how everyone oos and aahs about Windows two billion and five XP special extra home edition not crashing and being slightly more resistant to viruses like that was something that microsoft shouldn't have done in the late 80s/early 90s. They literally have more money than they know what to do with and yet they still produce shitty insecure software.
Re:But, how do you really feel? by anicca · 2004-10-16 16:24 · Score: 1

Why? There will still be plenty of XP boxes for linux users like me to fix. What you call ecosystem, I call monopoly. Yes, take econ 101, why pay big for a product that is INFERIOR to one that is FREE??? Name someone else that puts out a product that is broken right out of the box? That has fixes for the fixes?

--
A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both. Dwight D. Eisenhower
Re:But, how do you really feel? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 16:46 · Score: 2, Interesting

Econ101 only teaches you about the old world. It doesnt take into account goods that can be reproduced with no cost.
Re:But, how do you really feel? by bitwiseNomad · 2004-10-16 17:05 · Score: 3, Interesting

Econ101 only teaches you about the old world. It doesnt take into account goods that can be reproduced with no cost.

Actually, the theories taught in economics are fairly timeless. If an assumption is made about a certain good or set of goods (i.e. scarcity is automatically enforced by the sheer physical number of said product), that does not mean the entire theory falls apart if you take away that assumption. All it means is that you have to figure out the rammifications of said assumption and change your model accordingly.

I might also add that what is happening with software and music piracy right now does not contradict long-standing economic models. Any economist worth their salt would be able to think critically about such markets without being tied to certain assumptions about the scarcity of goods that the "old world" may still cling to.

That sort of thinking is one of the goals of a scientist's education.

--

Light is filtering down from above. Would you like to use DIVE?
Re:But, how do you really feel? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 17:05 · Score: 1, Informative

Well, if Linus ever changes his mind about MS, Steve Ballmer said that they'd hire him.
Re:But, how do you really feel? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 18:39 · Score: 0

that does not mean the entire theory falls apart if you take away that assumption. All it means is that you have to figure out the rammifications of said assumption and change your model accordingly.
That's some serious hand waving there, Buddy. You're essentially saying that the model's not wrong, it just needs to be different than it is.
So it's wrong.
Re:But, how do you really feel? by dimator · 2004-10-16 18:41 · Score: 4, Insightful

Imagine this wasn't an interview by the founder of Linux. Imagine (most) everyone on this forum didn't already despise Microsoft, and/or love Linux.

Now, is Microsoft a monopolist? Before you answer, read up on your history. Have they used this monopoly power to hurt consumers, by locking them in, by limiting choice?

If that's the American Dream, then I maybe its time to revise the American Dream.

By the way, from here, an ecosystem is "a community of organisms." There isn't much of an ecosystem if one of the "organisms" has absolute power over every other one.

--
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
Re:But, how do you really feel? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 19:23 · Score: 0

Your uncle is a fucking MORON , GNU/Linux is a socialist/capitalist system you can decide how much you whant to sell it.

Communism is everyone get the same at the same price and you cant change or improve it... like windows
Re:But, how do you really feel? by funtime · 2004-10-16 20:45 · Score: 2, Insightful

"Microsoft fucking epitomizes the American Dream." Oh, you mean the one run by a right-wing religious oil baron, the one that takes such delight in jailing its citizens and doesn't allow prisoners to vote, the one that lets said citizens own hand guns (for fuck's sake!), the one that got the masses to censor themselves and cut themselves off from the outside world without even using the KGB tactics of the former Soviet Union? That one? Kewl! :)
Re:But, how do you really feel? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 21:18 · Score: 2, Insightful

"I think Microsoft has a PR problem. Largely deservedly, I would say."

Yes, Microsoft has a PR problem, but to call them greedy and anti-American Dream is taking things way too far. Microsoft fucking epitomizes the American Dream.

The American dream is not about creating a Monopoly, where competetion is stiffled via patents.

1) Doulbe clicking
2) How about putting icons on the desktop (IE: trash can). Ok, the trash can was, I think an Apple patent.
3)What about patents for scroll bars?

How are small developers to compete with insane patents.

"Microsoft made billions selling licenses to great software, and created a vibrant ecosystem where everyone respects everyone elses intellectual property rights. Linux and other communist-type free software ideals threaten to destroy that ecosystem which employs so many people! Take Econ101. "

My major/degree is in Finance and I have taken several econ courses in my life.

1) How is a sense of community a communist scheme to destroy the economic foundation of a capitolstic society? I have been born a bread a capitolist, I firmly dont believe in communism. Linux is a different financial model.

Back to Econ 101: As countries develop, they move from an industrialzed to a service orientend economy. The software industry can loosely be defined as a good. Someone creates a good and then sells it. Now, Linux comes along and creates an opportunity to give a product away for Free/Low cost. Now it opens the door to provide Sevice and Support for such a product.

Here are some aspects to Linux and service provided:
Have you ever rolled your own distribution? No. Well people get paid for making their own distribution.

Ever had to patch a distribution? No, well companies will pay for a service to patch a distribution.

There is money to be made by creating a pure service side to software.

Have you ever called MS for support? If you have, they ask you to whip out your credit card.

If I buy a new car, and I have an issue, I can take it to the dealer and have my car serviced. Ever try to get your windows install serviced? Call MS and what happens. Credit Card number please.

What about manuals for software. I remember back in 1980 that you got a hardcover manual with your software purchase. What happens now? The divisions that make the manuals for their software actually put out the manuals for purchase.

Last car I bought, I got an owners manual.

Its kind of funny. You pay 300 USD for a product with virtually no support and how much does this product cost MS? Last estimates approx 28-30 USD.

What would happen if your electic company started charging 1 USD per kilowatt? You would have a stroke.

I am all for the best product. How about those wacky proprietary file formats. Open up the format and let the best product win. ECON 101, competetion is a good thing. Monopolies are a bad thing.
Re:But, how do you really feel? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 21:59 · Score: 0

No, the lockin was not with consumers, but with PC hardware vendors, which resulted in a monoscape of PCs.
Re:But, how do you really feel? by renoX · 2004-10-16 22:21 · Score: 1

Its mostly the same thing: a huge majority of consumer won't ever install another OS on their computer.
So 'preinstall lockin' --> consumer lockin.
Re:But, how do you really feel? by marafa · 2004-10-16 23:00 · Score: 0, Troll

interesting concept.
but just imagine what the world would be like if:
benjamin franklin had copyrighted electricity
isaac newton had copyrighted gravity
archimedes had copyrighted levers
hell, if the first caveman had copyrighted fire or the wheel.
this is definetly not the way to share information technology
ps. mod me as troll

--
_ In Egypt Networks: Network Solutions with a Twist
Re:But, how do you really feel? by shutdown+-p+now · 2004-10-16 23:35 · Score: 0

Name someone else that puts out a product that is broken right out of the box?
Half of all Linux distros?
Re:But, how do you really feel? by secolactico · 2004-10-16 23:53 · Score: 1

why pay big for a product that is INFERIOR to one that is FREE???

Because the software I need to run only runs on the inferior product because the manufacturers of said software won't produce it for the free one, because not many people uses it, because the software they need only runs on the inferior product because...

Is there an econ 101 term for this? Besides "chicken and egg"?

--
No sig
Re:But, how do you really feel? by sniperu · 2004-10-17 00:02 · Score: 1

Slashdot : the only place where Parent could be modded +4 Funny :) .
Re:But, how do you really feel? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 01:22 · Score: 0

What? Be more specific. Oh wait, you're a Troll! (mod down)
Re:But, how do you really feel? by argent · 2004-10-17 03:18 · Score: 0, Redundant

but to call them greedy and anti-American Dream is taking things way too far

He called them greedy, but that's hardly something you should find offensive: the laws that govern the behaviour of public companies significantly penalise anything but greedy behaviour. That's a fact of life, and companies that don't act that way are never going to become industry leaders. Open Source actually has an advantage there: if Linus doesn't take advantage of some opportunity to make money he's not going to be hauled into court for neglecting his fiduciary duty to his stockholders.

As for the second part, he didn't say Microsoft was "anti-American Dream". He said that it wasn't the "American Dream". I'm not Linus Torvalds... does that mean I'm anti-Linus Torvalds?

Take Econ101.

You probably ought to review that yourself. Maybe you'd understand what he was getting at when he said they "might be better off with some competition". What's more essential to the American economy than competition, after all?
Re:But, how do you really feel? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 07:48 · Score: 0

but it's not as wrong as the previous person said it was.
Re:But, how do you really feel? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 20:11 · Score: 0

Microsoft made billions selling licenses to great software

Do you mean DOS 3.3 or Xenix?
Re:But, how do you really feel? by geminidomino · 2004-10-17 23:33 · Score: 1

My guess would be the mod was giving GP the benefit of the doubt, instead of -1, Asshat..err..Troll
Re:But, how do you really feel? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-18 02:31 · Score: 0

but it's not as wrong as the previous person said it was.
You're right.
Re:But, how do you really feel? by rixstep · 2004-10-24 06:34 · Score: 1

'rammifications'?

Mmmmmmm...

Horrible Writeup by Roofus · 2004-10-16 15:06 · Score: 5, Funny

Once again, I would like to thank the article submitter (as well as the Slashdot editor) who posted this story for giving us NO background information on who this Linus guy is. Are we all expected to instantly recognize every Joe Schmoe that has an interview posted online?

Next time, a little background info would be helpful people!

Re:Horrible Writeup by doofsmack · 2004-10-16 18:02 · Score: 1, Redundant

You're kidding.

security by zoloto · 2004-10-16 15:06 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Q. How can Linux avoid the security problems that have affected Windows?

A. Better design and actually caring about them. Having the guts to really fixing fundamental design mistakes, rather than trying to work around them

. ... nuff said

Re:security by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 15:38 · Score: 0

>> [Linus quote]
> . ... nuff said

Ya know, I thought what Linus said was particularly insightful, but then I saw your post, with the "...nuff said" part you added. That really made me think about the topic. I thought long and hard. And I could see your point. It really made me think "gosh, I wish I had mod points so I could mod this guy insightful, because that stuff he added really brought more insight to the discourse I'm reading".
It's too bad that I didn't have mod points, because I would have definately modded up your post.

Highlights by shirai · 2004-10-16 15:07 · Score: 5, Informative

For those who don't want to RTFA, here are some highlights from Linus:

Now, many of the volunteers end up getting paid, and maybe they can't be called "volunteers" any more if somebody ends up being silly enough to pay them for something they'd have done for free anyway.
In real open source, you have the right to control your own destiny. When you play with it, mommy isn't going to tell you what you can and can not do, and not going to take your toy away from you when she thinks you are done. You're an adult, and you can make your own choices. That is when you get engaged.
I don't think the lawsuits have necessarily made a huge direct difference, but I do think that it has made a lot more people realize that maybe Microsoft wasn't the "American Dream" after all, but just another greedy company that might be better off with some competition.
Q. How can Linux avoid the security problems that have affected Windows?

A. Better design and actually caring about them. Having the guts to really fixing fundamental design mistakes, rather than trying to work around them.

--
Sunny

Be my Friend

Re:Highlights by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 15:47 · Score: 1, Funny

I don't think the lawsuits have necessarily made a huge direct difference, but I do think that it has made a lot more people realize that maybe Microsoft wasn't the "American Dream" after all, but just another greedy company that might be better off with some competition.

You mean, selling freely reproducable bits in shrinkwrap packages with extremely high profit margins isn't the American Dream? It sure as shit is MY dream. Microsoft has over $40 billion in the bank because they were able to charge money for something that costs them almost nothing to reproduce after they poured investment into the first. That's a nice racket, and I for one think that IS the American Dream: to make easy money.
You open sores hippies just don't get it, and damn if your ideals are going to get any mainstream acceptance and end up devaluing my MSFT stock and other investments. A healthy respect for intellectual property is something America NEEDS for the american dream to continue to be there for the generation, folks.
It had to be said.
Re:Highlights by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 15:55 · Score: 1, Insightful

Where the hell did you get the idea that the American Dream was about fucking over people so you could get ahead? The American Dream is about everyone being able to work for a better future. About everyone being able afford that dream house in the suburbs, instead of just a couple fuckwads at the top buying mansions while the rest live in squalor.
Re:Highlights by GoofyBoy · 2004-10-16 16:01 · Score: 5, Interesting

The American Dream is for me and my childern to have a better life.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that it includes other people. Do you dream of what some guy across the city childern future is?

To say that everyone should have a better future isn't the American Dream, its more, IMHO, of the Communist Dream.

--
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Re:Highlights by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 16:07 · Score: 0

You dont care about your fellow man, asshole? how about this: im the guy you stepped on on the wayt to the top and I'm going to break into your nice McMansion and steal your nice things and maybe rape and shoot your family while high on drugs. You stole my dream you greedy bastard. If you cared more about other people I could have had half of your house and we could both be happy instead of both of us sad. Let this be a lesson to you McScrooge.
Re:Highlights by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 16:16 · Score: 0

This, my friend, is why everyone hates Americans. Pathological, systemic selfishness.
Re:Highlights by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 16:21 · Score: 1, Funny

To say that everyone should have a better future isn't the American Dream, its more, IMHO, of the Communist Dream.
Holy batshit, you can't be serious?!
America is officially jumping the shark.
Re:Highlights by Botty · 2004-10-16 16:54 · Score: 1

*sigh* I take offense to the AC's ramblings as an American and as a person. Although you really should replace the word "American" with "Asshole". Just by reading the AC's post I dont like this A-Hole either. But he could be from any country and I would despise what he stands for. There are the good and the bad anywhere you go, and that sir, is your bad.
Re:Highlights by gnuman99 · 2004-10-16 17:04 · Score: 3, Interesting

I wouldn't go as far as to say that it includes other people. Do you dream of what some guy across the city childern future is? To say that everyone should have a better future isn't the American Dream, its more, IMHO, of the Communist Dream.
I see. So when someone will outsource your job, maybe it is not a bad thing after all. It is just someone else's "American Dream".
I guess this sheds some light why US is swimming in debt while Bush shrugs it off as "unimportant". He seems to be living the same "American Dream". Too bad US is literaly going bankrupt. I hope parent is out of debt when the interest rates go sky-high and inflation is more than 20%. On second thought, maybe I'll take parent's advice and don't!
Of course, American's are perplexed why US is generally the most hated country in the world. With this type of "American Dream"... LOL.
Re:Highlights by thepoch · 2004-10-16 17:35 · Score: 4, Interesting

I rather like the little chorus of a song I've heard that goes:

"Life should be fun for everyone"

In that short phrase, it displays the freedom and enjoyment of life that everyone deserves. I believe that is what humanity must strive for.

Some will say "life shouldn't be fun for everyone", but I ask "why not?". Some will say "what about the rapists that enjoy raping women", I say "well then if women were raped, they wouldn't be enjoying life now, would they?".

It's kinda hard to explain. Some believe that freedom means you can do anything. Most knowledgable people will say freedom is about doing things to the limit that you won't harm the freedom of others. That's similar to saying everyone should have a better future. Everyone having a better future is in the interest of everyone. Imagine a criminal who no longer has to commit crimes because his life is already better. Wouldn't that make your children's life better as well, not having to worry about crime anymore?

Saying you only want a better life for your children, family, is a Selfish Dream. Saying you want a better future for everyone in the world is, in my honest opinion, the Human Dream.

I'm a part of the Human Race, what are you a part of?

At previewing, I seem to have rambled and have become Off Topic to the original article. Oh well...

Peace.
Re:Highlights by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 17:45 · Score: 0

hey, it's America. People can be totally broke and work for humanity, or some blood sucking immoral ass hole who doesn't care about beating the crap out of someone for a dollar.
put it another way, that healthy respect for intellectual property should be setup in favor of the little guy. since you're posting on /., you're a working stiff like everyone else. that means you're just as likely to get screwed by corporations who frankly give a shit about your rights.
for those too stupid or lazy to ready history and learn from it. most of the old money in the US came from lying, cheating, steeling and killing people. It came about from breaking laws and royally fucking everyone else.
but go back further and you'll see that is the pattern of human history. by the way, you'd have a better chance of getting rich, so you can have others kiss your ass, if the coporations didn't dictate IP policy, which they currently do.
for all intents and purposes, big corporations overwhelm the IP system in their favor against the little guy. Go back to school and learn something for god sake. don't be another idiotic ass kissing moron. There's thousands of ass kisser waiting to take your place, only to get jack shit.
Re:Highlights by dalutong · 2004-10-16 17:47 · Score: 1

I always defined the American Dream as:

believing you get back whatever you put in.

Meaning if you work hard you get something for it. I know many people who are very envious (mostly who are from other countries) of how we are able to work 3 crappy jobs and get paid for every hour we work. That's the American dream in my opinion -- that there is a more direct corrilation between how hard you work and what you get back for it.

--

What comes first, finding a teacher or becoming a student?
Re:Highlights by misleb · 2004-10-16 17:54 · Score: 3, Informative

I wouldn't go as far as to say that it includes other people. Do you dream of what some guy across the city childern future is?
Yeah. Believe it or not, some people DO care about the welfare of others. I know I do. And no, that doesn't make me a communist.
To say that everyone should have a better future isn't the American Dream, its more, IMHO, of the Communist Dream.
The American Dream is that everyone should have the opportunity for a better life. The Communist Dream is for a classless society where people work in harmony.
-matthew

--
"THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
Re:Highlights by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 17:59 · Score: 0

To say that everyone should have a better future isn't the American Dream, its more, IMHO, of the Communist Dream.
since it's obvious you haven't got a clue what democracy means and where some of the ideas came from, here is a link to Plato's the republic. http://www.cliffsnotes.com/WileyCDA/LitNote/id-154 .html
birth of democracy
You have every right for you and your children to have a better life. the trick is, what defines better? Is having a pimped out car better? Is having a decent living and spending time with the kids better? Is working 80hrs/week better? Is it being able to walk any where in the US and feeling safe better? Is it better that you're rich while the rest are poor and have to resort to crime for a living? Is it having foriegn policy which pisses off other countries and breeds terrorism better? Is living off the grid better?
You're going to have think what better really means before claiming something is communist. Go read Marx before you show just how ignorant you are.
Re:Highlights by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 18:02 · Score: 0

To say that everyone should have a better future isn't the American Dream, its more, IMHO, of the Communist Dream.

Have you ever actually read the Declaration of Independence or the U.S. Constitution ? The idea that everyone should be able to have a better life, a better future is pretty clearly spelled out.

I can only presume that you were born during or after the 80's and soaked up that BS "greed is good" and "profit is all that counts" crap we are laboring under today. No, my child, the health and welfare of corporations are NOT more important than that of actual people. You sound like an fscking Ferengi.

Get a clue,
Mal the Elder
Re:Highlights by MobyTurbo · 2004-10-16 18:03 · Score: 2, Insightful

I know this is off-topic, but since the parent was modded up fairly high by people who are silly enough to think it's insightful and not-offtopic too perhaps it's worthwhile to disagree with it publically:
The American Dream is for me and my childern to have a better life.
I wouldn't go as far as to say that it includes other people. Do you dream of what some guy across the city childern future is?
To say that everyone should have a better future isn't the American Dream, its more, IMHO, of the Communist Dream.
There's nothing Communist about saying that we're all G-d's children and since this is the case we should all care for one another, rather than only ourselves. Perhaps it's not entirely the American dream as you see it but it's certainly the Judeo-Christian dream and there's nothing "Communist" about that.
Re:Highlights by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 18:21 · Score: 0

Alternatively, McScrooge could summon his fellow Rich Bastards, assemble the best weapons money/wealth/power (different metrics for the same thing, ultimately) can buy, and then hunt down both your crack-ridden self and your family, just to make an example for any other uppity serfs who get these sorts of ideas in their heads.

Indeed, this is exactly the course that human history has followed time and time again--the rich lock in their position for themselves and their progeny, while the unfortunate masses are yoked to their fate of serving the rich and/or powerful. Some well-known examples of this paradigm are feudalism (for example, Europe from about 400 A.D. until 1450 or so), and the Soviet Union--in the latter case, money and wealth were not the means of forming the new aristocracy (e.g., the Communist party members), but political power was.

In any human social scheme, the only thing those in power have to do to remain there, is to exercise diligence in appearing to give a damn about the masses, while ensuring that the proper means exist to suppress them (via debt, or religious dogma, or control over mass communication, etc.). The only time the scheme is upset is when the ruling class becomes too lax, although the previous ruling class is inevitably supplanted by a new aristocracy, who go on to repeat the pattern (whether espousing a "new system" or not).

Summary: why the hell should I give my fellow man (who is a no-job lazy-ass crack addict) half my shit, when I can simply oppress him, instead?
Re:Highlights by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 18:49 · Score: 0

I'm a part of the Human Race, what are you a part of?
I'm a part of the White Christian race. Now fuck off and die and so there's more resources left for my righteous kids to take.
Re:Highlights by killjoe · 2004-10-16 19:08 · Score: 0, Offtopic

"To say that everyone should have a better future isn't the American Dream, its more, IMHO, of the Communist Dream."

No it's the dream of Chirst.

--
evil is as evil does
Re:Highlights by ajrs · 2004-10-16 19:24 · Score: 1

Do you dream of what some guy across the city childern future is?

you bet I do. I dream that guy's oldest son gets a PHD in enginearing and invents some cool stuff. I dream that guy's daugher becomes a doctor to treat me in my old age. I dream that guy's younger son becomes a carpenter and actualy show up for apointments.

I dream that your kids group up and get good jobs, pay taxes, and don't have to defend their lives at gun point. And that they don't try to drive my company out of buisness with an illeagal monopoly. Is that too much to ask for?
Re:Highlights by node+3 · 2004-10-16 19:39 · Score: 2, Interesting

The American Dream is for me and my childern to have a better life.

That's part of it, sure.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that it includes other people. Do you dream of what some guy across the city childern future is?

Absolutely. Anyone who doesn't is a psychopathic asshole.

To say that everyone should have a better future isn't the American Dream, its more, IMHO, of the Communist Dream.

The Communist Dream is to tell the people that they are working for a better tomorrow for everyone, but instead are working to give more and more power to the party leaders. The corollary is to want to be a Party leader.

In fact, that's not so terribly different from the current scheme in America except that the corporation is the "Party".
Re:Highlights by 87C751 · 2004-10-16 19:47 · Score: 1

Some will say "life shouldn't be fun for everyone"
Mr. Ashcroft, is that you?

--
Mail? Put "slashdot" in the subject to pass the spam filters.
Re:Highlights by rajmobile · 2004-10-16 20:48 · Score: 2, Informative

To say that everyone should have a better future isn't the American Dream, its more, IMHO, of the Communist Dream.

Ah, to be thirteen and have access to a computer...
Re:Highlights by shish · 2004-10-16 21:21 · Score: 1

How hard does a lawyer work? How hard does someone who's a waiter, a shop attendant and a garbage dude in 3 part time jobs work?

--
I mod down anyone who says "I will be modded down for this", regardless of the rest of their comment
Re:Highlights by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 21:37 · Score: 0

You can't claim ownership of the American Dream. Per definition it should involve more people than you and your family. A dream about you and your family can be nothing but the dream of an individual, thus not a dream of a people.

Your initial statement is logically corrupt, please tend to it.
Re:Highlights by dunkelfalke · 2004-10-16 23:01 · Score: 1

no, we are not envious, we are curious why do you prefer three crappy jobs to a good one.

in my view it is better to have a good job, to earn enough for living and to have enough spare time.

when the only things you have time for are working and sleeping then it is not a life anymore, it is barely existence. you will be burned out soon, or get sick, then what?

you can't take money to the grave.

--
Conservatism: The fear that somewhere, somehow, someone you think is your inferior is being treated as your equal.
Re:Highlights by svin · 2004-10-16 23:15 · Score: 0

sounds to me like utilitarianism , with the "utility principle" being fun. A good guiding principle, but the criticism mentioned on Wikipedia still holds.
Re:Highlights by pmfp · 2004-10-16 23:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

I see. So when someone will outsource your job, maybe it is not a bad thing after all. It is just someone else's "American Dream".

They have equally much right to fight for their aspirations as you and me. It's a global competitive market; if you're not offering a better solution than others, you will not be picked.

Of course, American's are perplexed why US is generally the most hated country in the world. With this type of "American Dream"... LOL.

The hatred for the USA is far more complex than you make it seem. It is not an entirely rational argument and it is many times not even dependant on the actions of the USA, although there are many cases which are.

I've spent a lot of time both inside and outside the USA. There are a great number of misconceptions of the character and source of the hatred, as well as the nature of the USA. Just do what you believe is the right thing, you will be despised either way.

As for the American dream, I would like to give you a quote:
"I do not choose to be a common man. It is my right to be uncommon. To seek opportunity to develop whatever talents God gave me - not security. I do not wish to be a kept citizen, humbled and dulled by having the state look after me. I want to take the calculated risk; to dream and to build, to fail and to succeed. I refuse to barter incentive for a dole. I prefer the challenges of life to the guaranteed existence; the thrill of fulfillment to the stale calm of utopia. I will not trade freedom for beneficence nor my dignity for a handout. I will never cower before any earthly master nor bend to any threat. It is my heritage to stand erect, proud and unafraid; to think and act myself, enjoy the benefit of my creations and to face the world boldly and say: 'This, with God's help, I have done.' All this is what it means to be an American."
Dean Alfange

--

"So unmerciful is life, that everything afterwards is too late."
Re:Highlights by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 00:21 · Score: 0

It's kinda hard to explain. Some believe that freedom means you can do anything. Most knowledgable people will say freedom is about doing things to the limit that you won't harm the freedom of others.

Most knowledgable people? What kind of knowledge do these people possess that make them propose a different (and counterintuitive) definition of "freedom"? Nice argument from authority, but no, we don't buy it.

"Freedom" means a tremendous number of things, most very different, in different contexts. Of course it means "to do as your please" in some contexts. To dispute this is merely idiotic.

But then, so was your whole post.
Re:Highlights by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 00:49 · Score: 0

Some will say "life shouldn't be fun for everyone", but I ask "why not?". Some will say "what about the rapists that enjoy raping women", I say "well then if women were raped, they wouldn't be enjoying life now, would they?".
Not at first, perhaps.
</ob Monty Python>
Re:Highlights by Rhone · 2004-10-17 01:05 · Score: 1

Thank you for so beautifully articulating the selfishness that will probably lead our country to share a fate similar to that of the Roman Empire.
Re:Highlights by dalutong · 2004-10-17 01:48 · Score: 2, Interesting

I didn't say that everyone gets paid the same. But at whatever socio-economic level you are you get to work as hard as you want and get paid for that effort.

In many parts of the world you can't do that. Either you can't (as in aren't allowed to) get a second job or you get paid just as much as the next guy who doesn't work nearly as hard.

I'm not saying it's a perfect system. All I'm saying is that I've found many people who are envious of and appreciative of the opportunity to have a fairly direct relationship between how hard you work and what you get paid.

--

What comes first, finding a teacher or becoming a student?
Re:Highlights by dalutong · 2004-10-17 01:52 · Score: 1

Man -- I'm not saying that it is the dream to work yourself to death. The dream is to have your hard work _mean something._

Most places I've been one guy (Turkmenistan is a good example) might work 40 hours a week. Another may work 10. Both get paid 40 bucks a week.

I'm not promoting workaholism. I'm just saying that in many places it DOESN'T matter how hard you work. If you need some extra money because your wife needs surgury YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. You can't work extra shifts. You can't get another job (in many places it is illegal to work more than one). You can't do anything.

So to all the people who have felt helpless like that taking out the trash for 20 hours a day, being paid at an hourly rate, is a Dream.

--

What comes first, finding a teacher or becoming a student?
Re:Highlights by dunkelfalke · 2004-10-17 02:18 · Score: 1

first, turkmenistan is a really bad example. there is nothing interesting in turkmenistan, short of maybe opium production. it has absolutely fallen behind after ussr has fallen apart.

second, different jobs different salaries. with your logic you have to be pissed that you boss earns much more even when he works less hours. or even if some earns less than you for the same work time, it is possible that he has more vacation days, longer job contract and so on.

for example, at the place where i work the wages are bit lower than usual, but no one has been fired for 10 years already. in contrary, we keep growing.

third, your example with the surgery is not that good. in many places it may be illegal to have more than one job, but in many places there is an universal healthcare so you don't have to think how you can afford the healthcare you need.

--
Conservatism: The fear that somewhere, somehow, someone you think is your inferior is being treated as your equal.
Re:Highlights by KarmaMB84 · 2004-10-17 02:42 · Score: 2, Informative

I think it has more to do with the fact that we flex our oversized military and economic muscles whenever we please.
Re:Highlights by JohnnyCannuk · 2004-10-17 02:58 · Score: 1

...and Buddha, and Mohammed, and Confusius and Wiccans, and Druids and Native Shamans and most other religious leaders. It's the dream of quite a few atheists as well.

Let's not try to corner the market on caring, morality and dreams here. Yes, the Christ character in the Bible did stand for this occasionally, but he wasn't the first, wasn't the last and not the only one.

The dream can come true when we realize it's the dream of ALL humankind and not the particular domain of one nation or one religion, to the exclusion of all others.

Peace.

--
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
Re:Highlights by npsimons · 2004-10-17 03:13 · Score: 1

Do you dream of what some guy across the city childern future is?

Actually, I do. Don't get me wrong, I'm not some selfless saint. It comes down to basic common sense: if that kid across the city is happy and well taken care of, how likely is it that he will go on a killing spree ala Columbine? On the other hand, you may be unpleasantly surprised when your child comes home in a body bag because that child across the city was abused or on drugs. Granted, the first priority is to take care of one's own, but to ignore the fact that we as a society are interconnected is just plain shortsighted.

To say that everyone should have a better future isn't the American Dream, its more, IMHO, of the Communist Dream.

Fine, then. Call me a communist if that makes you feel better. I've never really cared for labels much anyway, and you won't be the first (or the last) name caller to dismiss an idea via the cowardly route of ad hominem.

--
Nathan's blog
Re:Highlights by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 04:27 · Score: 0

wow!

You're a sick fuck.
Re:Highlights by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 04:29 · Score: 0

America is officially jumping the shark.
First of all, ol' GoofyBoy there isn't the US spokesperson, and second of all, the "jumping the shark" metaphor isn't really applicable here.
Re:Highlights by Narchie+Troll · 2004-10-17 05:37 · Score: 2, Interesting

"This, with God's help, and legal protection of my interests, and government management and upkeep of the commercial infrastructure, and skilled laborers educated in public schools, and protection from disease through public sanitation, I have done."

Fixed Dean Alfange's typo.
Re:Highlights by dalutong · 2004-10-17 08:39 · Score: 1

Man -- people in France don't dream the "american dream."

1st -- turkmenistan is exactly the place where people _would_ dream it. there is a very poor economy (drug and cotton and natural gas being what most of it centers around). people do _not_ have good healthcare. people don't have enough work (60% unemployment.)

people don't have much -- except dreams. and what do they dream? of a life where hard work gets you somewhere. it doesn't make you rich -- that isn't the dream. it means you have control, to a greater degree, over how you live.

you say that in my logic you have to be pissed that your boss earns more but works less. no -- in my logic you are not comparing yourself to your boss. in my logic all you want is to be able to work harder and to get something back for it.

i'm not talking about some fantasy economy where incomes are based on hard work and not on anything else. i am saying that if you are a mechanic with a 9th grade education you can work 6, 8, 10 or 12 hours a day and have that corrolate to your pay.

in turkmenistan, since i used that example, many are employed by the state to do menial work. they have a whole army of street sweepers. they all get 40 bucks a month. one might sit on her ass and get 40 bucks a month. you might work with pride. but you know what? both of you are going to get 40 bucks at the end of the month. no matter how much harder you work. no matter how many hours you work. to that lady the dream -- whatever you want to call it -- is to be able to say "i'm going to improve my life" and actually have some control over it.

empowerment is what people dream of. i'm not saying it is only in america. i'm saying that that is what i've defined the "american dream" as. the belief that you get back whatever you put in.

--

What comes first, finding a teacher or becoming a student?
Re:Highlights by Reteo+Varala · 2004-10-17 08:44 · Score: 1

ACTUALLY, Communism is simply a method of socialism, where everything produced is pooled, and handed out according to who needs it.

Capitalism simply means you keep what you produce, and can trade what you have for what you don't.

I don't know the guy down the street, and I don't care about him; he's got his own problems and solutions, and it would be arrogant of me to assume that I 1: know what his problems are, and 2: that I would have the solution to them. I'd probably irritate the fellow if I were to provide him with my "answers."

Now, even worse is the person who might be able to solve his own problems, except for the fact that I provide him a "safety net" to keep him safe. His needs are met without any particular action of his own. As per human nature, he is not pushed to support himself, and he becomes more complacent, depending on the "help" I provide.

Now, helping others of our own free will is not a bad thing; it's a good thing to do. But mandating the helping of other turns charity into a twisted form of tyranny. Particularly for those who need the money to keep their small businesses alive.

The American Dream as is known is based in the third basic right: The pursuit of happiness. Note, PURSUIT, not GUARANTEE. I should be free to pursue my dreams without any governmental intervention, so long as I respect the three basic rights of everyone else.

As of right now, we don't have a true capitalist society, as evidenced by the labrynthian maze of laws surrounding all kinds of things, and including such socialist tendencies as medicare and welfare, and fascist tendencies like corporate non-liability.

--
The Penguin Producer
Re:Highlights by dunkelfalke · 2004-10-17 08:57 · Score: 1

pride or not, as long as you get your work done you get the money. that's how i see it. at my job i am often just sitting there and surfing. my colleagues are a bit suspicious about it and my boss is, too. but i get my job done, on time or even faster. and that's what i get money for. maybe it is a legacy of me being grown up in the ussr.

what you describe in turkmenistan is absolutely the same legacy.

--
Conservatism: The fear that somewhere, somehow, someone you think is your inferior is being treated as your equal.
Re:Highlights by Zonnald · 2004-10-17 11:54 · Score: 1

Do you really believe that America has the "Government protection of big business" market cornered?
Re:Highlights by Narchie+Troll · 2004-10-17 15:05 · Score: 2, Insightful

Of course not. Actually, I'm not being critical of that at all -- most of the things I listed there are services of the government to all people.

I wasn't specifically addressing America; rather, I was addressing the statement that the 'American dream' is to be able to say that you did something all by yourself but with God's help. In reality, except in the complete absence of government, very few people accomplish something without at least some measure of direct or indirect government assistance.

No man is an island, etc. Government welfare doesn't just come in the form of a handout, and your garden-variety rugged individualist is deluding herself if she believes that she's done anything all by herself.
Re:Highlights by node+3 · 2004-10-17 17:35 · Score: 1

ACTUALLY, Communism is simply a method of socialism, where everything produced is pooled, and handed out according to who needs it.

Communism is a form of Capitalism, where the state runs the business, not a corporation or private business owner.

It's like combining the worst parts of both Capitalism and Socialism.

Capitalism simply means you keep what you produce, and can trade what you have for what you don't.

That doesn't make any sense. Under Capitalism, do you mean to say that if I work at Sprocket Co, I get to keep every sprocket I produce? Just like under Communism (where I work for the state voluntarily (sometimes non-voluntarily, but Communism does not require forced labor), I get paid by the state, same as if I work for a company (again, the same basic level of "voluntary" applies), and I get paid by the company. Both payments are not required to have any relation to what I actually produce.

All that said, I don't mean to say Communism is good at all. What I am saying is that Communism is a form of Capitalism where the State owns all of the means of production, where Capitalism the means of production are in the hands of another ruling class. You could say Capitalism is a kinder, gentler, form of Communism.

I don't know the guy down the street, and I don't care about him; he's got his own problems and solutions, and it would be arrogant of me to assume that I 1: know what his problems are, and 2: that I would have the solution to them. I'd probably irritate the fellow if I were to provide him with my "answers."

Where did all that come from? I just said that you can't be a mentally healthy human being if you don't care about other people in some general manner. I never said you had to control his life.

The American Dream as is known is based in the third basic right: The pursuit of happiness. Note, PURSUIT, not GUARANTEE. I should be free to pursue my dreams without any governmental intervention, so long as I respect the three basic rights of everyone else.

The three basic rights are contradictory. To base a philosophy on the explicit assumption that these rights are absolutes is flawed.

As of right now, we don't have a true capitalist society, as evidenced by the labrynthian maze of laws surrounding all kinds of things, and including such socialist tendencies as medicare and welfare, and fascist tendencies like corporate non-liability.

You are absolutely correct about this. I submit for your consideration, that pure Capitalism, without any Socialism at all is the law of the jungle.

The problem is that the three generally promoted economic (and by necessity, political) systems of Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism are all unworkable in their extreme, ideal, forms, and this is because the dynamics of humans as individuals and societies are far more complex than these simplistic ideals can adequately address.

and you're wrong by poptones · 2004-10-16 15:10 · Score: 4, Funny

It's only spelled "Linus."

It's pronounced "Luxury Yacht."

Re:and you're wrong by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 15:22 · Score: 0

Repeat after me.
- My name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a mansion und a Yacht.

SLASHDOT HAS GONE MAD by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 15:13 · Score: 3, Funny

It's like that old series of Peanuts strips where everything Charlie Brown looks at, he sees a baseball. Anything Slashdot looks at this month, it sees the U.S. presidential election, and filters it through that context. A Linus Tourvalds article is about the presidential election. A Java vs C# article is like the presidential election. AN ARTICLE ABOUT A GOOGLE SHAREWARE APP BECOMES ABOUT THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

P.S.: And in answer to your question, the last gallup poll showed Linus leading Nader by two points despite the fact that 99% of poll respondents had never heard Tourvalds' name before

Re:SLASHDOT HAS GONE MAD by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 00:43 · Score: 0

It's true! I read your posting and all I was able to think was "presidential election!", although this is a thread about Linus Torvalds! You guess made your point, didn't you?

More detail by erick99 · 2004-10-16 15:14 · Score: 5, Informative

Here is an article with more detail about Torvald's move to Portland.

--
http://www.busyweather.com/

Re:More detail by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 15:47 · Score: 0

Wha? Seems to go to the Seattle Times, just like it says.

Put the crack pipe down, son, and back away from it SLOWLY....
Re:More detail by Zen+Punk · 2004-10-16 15:47 · Score: 1

Anonymous Butthole is the troll. The link is to a news article, nothing more. Read the URL. No redirects, just points to an HTML page on the Seattle Times.

--
Sleep is futile.
Re:More detail by JeremyALogan · 2004-10-16 17:36 · Score: 1

you know... I just moved to Portland myself. Maybe he can help me get my ethernet card working

--
Jeremy Logan's Website.

Low content? Huh? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 15:14 · Score: 5, Insightful

...but I'm very happy doing it, and I feel I do something meaningful. What more can I ask for?

May we all realize this much some day.

Is there any way an AC can mod Linus + gajillion Insightful for that quote? If so, allow me.

Re:Low content? Huh? by einhverfr · 2004-10-16 16:10 · Score: 5, Funny

Is there any way an AC can mod Linus + gajillion Insightful for that quote?

Are you *really* Alan Cox?

--

LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Re:Low content? Huh? by gnuLNX · 2004-10-17 04:51 · Score: 1

ok a little sarcasm here....pay me what he gets paid and I will say that for you....I do love what I do, but I would love it a hell of a lot more if I had a few million dollars so that I would never have to worry again.

You post however was insightful.

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what?

Sounds like a great guy! by SSonnentag · 2004-10-16 15:16 · Score: 5, Insightful

Every time I read one of Linus' interviews I come away with the same impression...Linus sound like a really great guy! He sounds down-to-earth and practical. He doesn't sound greedy, manipulative or controlling. He sounds friendly and seems to have a great sense of humor. Basically, Linus sounds like a reverse image of Microsoft. Go Linu[s|x]!!!

Re:Sounds like a great guy! by GoofyBoy · 2004-10-16 16:10 · Score: 1

>I come away with the same impression...Linus sound like a really great guy

Or a really great sales person.

I doubt that its wise to judge a person solely on interviews you've read or else you would think that everyone in Hollywood is a wonderful, fantastic human being dedicated to their art.

--
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Re:Sounds like a great guy! by Fallen+Andy · 2004-10-16 16:12 · Score: 3, Interesting

Yep. But, you see, he never realised what a hurricane he'd unleashed on the world. It was just
a guy (like any one of us) trying to solve a problem. Just that he was at exactly the right point
in history and spatially to start that hurricane.

Linus as a butterfly. I sort of like that.
Re:Sounds like a great guy! by alib001 · 2004-10-16 16:49 · Score: 1

Que?

Linus unleashed a hurricane?

Linus as a butterfly?

Linus is a butterfly in a hurricane?

That's an odd mix of metaphors. Dude, I think you might have mistaken Linus for Mothra.
Re:Sounds like a great guy! by Bitsy+Boffin · 2004-10-16 17:02 · Score: 3, Informative

I think the parent poster may have been refering to chaos theory. A butterfly, through a chain of events can cause a hurricane, without any form of intention.

Google Search

Linus was the butterfly, who through a chain of events caused the hurricane that is Linux, wihout ever intending for that to happen.

--
NZ Electronics Enthusiasts: Check out my Trade Me Listings
Re:Sounds like a great guy! by Fallen+Andy · 2004-10-16 17:08 · Score: 1

Sigh. Lorenz Butterfly. OK, try Ray Bradbury stories if you don't understand that.
Re:Sounds like a great guy! by erick99 · 2004-10-16 17:25 · Score: 1

Isn't it possible to have a great respect for Torvalds without acting like a giddie school girl? I think the guy has done incredible things and deserves all accolades he gets, but why do so many drop their pants and present their genitals if they think he may be in the room?

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http://www.busyweather.com/
Re:Sounds like a great guy! by MarkusQ · 2004-10-16 18:24 · Score: 2, Insightful

The really weird thing is he's actually nicer in person than he sounds in interviews. Or maybe it isn't weird; most normal people come off a little stiffer/less friendly in interviews. Maybe what is weird is that there are so few people who manage to do what they want, don't sell out, and mostly don't care how other people feel about it, that we have no baseline for our expectations when one of them "makes it big".
Maybe the weird thing is that all the class A1 jerks that never manage to do anything useful, get famous, and still wind up sounding like the class A1 jerks they really are have warped our expectations.
-- MarkusQ
Re:Sounds like a great guy! by alib001 · 2004-10-16 18:37 · Score: 1

Ngggh. It's late and I'm about to go sleep...

But I thought Linus intended to produce an Operating System. And, in due course, he did.

I fail to see why you're specifically linking Linux to chaos theory, any more so than you would anything else in the universe.
Re:Sounds like a great guy! by el-spectre · 2004-10-16 18:56 · Score: 1

It's a flawed analogy... Linus intended to build an OS to learn about the 80386 architecture. He did not, however, have intentions of taking on unix or MS for market share.... nor of it ever becoming widely known.

--
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
Re:Sounds like a great guy! by alib001 · 2004-10-16 19:06 · Score: 1

Oh, thanks. I did not see that! (I'm tired but I also don't see any but the most tenuous of links there).

Yes... I guess the development of Linux is like the butterfly effect... if the Linus-butterfly was studying hurricane generation at a university, had an existing standard hurricane that it wanted to improve upon, made headway, then got together with like-minded butterflies to unleash their hurricane in an iterative, controlled manner over time...

Problems of scope.
Re:Sounds like a great guy! by willie150 · 2004-10-16 19:36 · Score: 3, Informative

It really pisses me off every time I hear the 'butterfly effect' used like this.

The intended meaning is that if you had a complete model of the world and factored everything in, but forgot a single butterfly, your model would be so useless that you could fail to predict a tornado.

The butterfly didn't 'cause' the tornado, but leaving it out of the model made it useless.

Have a look at wikipedia for a better explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

So the butterfly effect isn't really valid here, because Linus is responsible for Linux directly.

--
Better to stay silent, and let people think you're an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt
Re:Sounds like a great guy! by GyroTech · 2004-10-16 21:44 · Score: 1

Heheh, I really like your description of how Linus & Linux is (un)like choas theory, mind if I quote you on my webby??
Re:Sounds like a great guy! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 22:26 · Score: 0

It really pisses me off every time I hear the 'butterfly effect' used like this.
Relax. It really isn't that important. It is just a manner of speech that means we don't have to use so many words. Just as we say, e.g. "evolution selects the fittest genes" when what we really mean is that "through random variation and a process driven by chance (evolution), the fittest genes tend to survive", we say "the butterfly causes the hurricane" as short hand for "a simulation which does not exhibit a hurricane may exhibit a hurricane if the disturbances caused by an additional butterfly are included in it because of the outrageously high sensitivity to initial conditions that chaotic systems have".
Re:Sounds like a great guy! by ignavus · 2004-10-17 01:44 · Score: 1

Look, it's either "Go Linu(s|x)" or "Go Linu[sx]".

If you write "Go Linu[s|x]" it means that "Go Linu|" is one of the matching strings ... and I really don't think you meant that.

--
I am anarch of all I survey.
Re:Sounds like a great guy! by alib001 · 2004-10-17 02:35 · Score: 1

Help yourself, dude!

Cranky tiredness can be fun! :)
Re:Sounds like a great guy! by jadel · 2004-10-17 02:45 · Score: 1

I prefer to think of it as a super-saturated solution. All the prerequisites were there, Linus is the core around which everything crystallised.
IMNSHO Linus' true acheivement is not so much the crystals formation as the fact it's still accreting nicely the best part of a decade and a half afetr it started.
Re:Sounds like a great guy! by alib001 · 2004-10-17 05:10 · Score: 1

Well, sure. That's a lot more elegant than my analogue: I see Linus as a penguin that started the kernel snowball rolling through a snowfield slope of code-y goodness, directing its path through litigious yellow snow and such.
It's fun to play in Pseud's Corner! :)
Re:Sounds like a great guy! by FurryFeet · 2004-10-17 09:10 · Score: 2, Funny

You are, of course, right.
But I liked grandparent's idea a hella lot more. "Linus as Mothra". Whoa, dude. Whoa.
Re:Sounds like a great guy! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 18:02 · Score: 0

Really?

I'm reading Just For Fun at the moment. The book is interesting but Linus does come off fairly frequently as an ill mannered, egotistical jerk.

I'm about 3/4 of the way through now. And although I like Linux, I don't like Linus.

Funny (at least to me)... by ImaLamer · 2004-10-16 15:17 · Score: 5, Funny

Under the slashdot story which points to a Linus Torvalds interview there is an advertisement for Windows 2003 server and it's telling me that it's 17% cheaper to run!

--
Get your Unix fortune now!

Re:Funny (at least to me)... by Grizzlysmit · 2004-10-16 16:35 · Score: 1

Under the slashdot story which points to a Linus Torvalds interview there is an advertisement for Windows 2003 server and it's telling me that it's 17% cheaper to run!
Thanks nice to know what Adblock is blocking hee hee :-P

--
in my life God comes first.... but Linux is pretty high after that :-D
Francis Smit
Re:Funny (at least to me)... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 16:43 · Score: 0

Filthy adblocking thieves. The ads pay for the site and you steal the service. Typical of the hypocritical open sores hippie.
Re:Funny (at least to me)... by neonstz · 2004-10-16 23:12 · Score: 1

Under the slashdot story which points to a Linus Torvalds interview there is an advertisement for Windows 2003 server and it's telling me that it's 17% cheaper to run!

Yeah, but Windows is much more expensive when it's not running.

Re:Portland? by audacity242 · 2004-10-16 15:19 · Score: 1, Funny

Yeah, two and a half hours is SO close.

Those of us here in Portland cower under Microsoft's presence.

Proneenciation? by schnitzi · 2004-10-16 15:22 · Score: 3, Funny

> Linus Torvalds (pronounced LEE-nus)

Hmm, does that mean Linux should be pronounced LEE-nux?

--

I object to that article, and to the next reply.

Re:Proneenciation? by MBCook · 2004-10-16 15:32 · Score: 4, Insightful

I've heard it pronounced all three ways (lin-ux, leye-nux, lee-nux). Linus says he doesn't really care. But there is a soundbyte somewhere on the net (it used to be the test sound when you installed a soundcard under Linux) that was Linus saying "My name is Leenus Torvald and I pronouse Leenux... Leenux." (or something like that). So yes, in theory, it probably should be Lee-nux.
That said, people in the US have been brainwashed to pronouce the name "leye-nus" for over 50 years by the comic strip "Peanuts". I never knew there WAS any other way to pronouce that name until after I got into Linux and heard Linus pronounce his name.
I assume most Finnish people pronounce it the way he does.
It's just based on how you pronouce the name "Linus" by default.

--
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
Re:Proneenciation? by bcrowell · 2004-10-16 15:35 · Score: 3, Informative

Yes, but but when I said it that way, people laughed at me. There's an audio clip floating around the net, with Linus saying, "This is Linus Torvalds, and I pronounce it Leenooks" (rhyming with "books").

--
Find free books.
Re:Proneenciation? by JambisJubilee · 2004-10-16 15:38 · Score: 5, Informative

From Linus himself: http://www.paul.sladen.org/pronunciation/
Re:Proneenciation? by Shinglor · 2004-10-16 15:44 · Score: 1

Yes
Re:Proneenciation? by bob+beta · 2004-10-16 15:49 · Score: 1

Brainwashed by a comic strip that appears in print?

(do captioned cartoon drawings 'speak' to you? I'm not even sure how many times the word 'Linus' is even spoken in the few, infrequent, Peanuts animations).

--
"What's the frequency Kenneth?"
Re:Proneenciation? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 15:55 · Score: 2, Interesting

It's just based on how you pronouce the name "Linus" by default.
I doubt it.

I think most Americans (incuding myself) pronounce Linus the "Peanuts" way. "L[eye]nus"

But most Americans tend to pronounce Linux with the soft english "i" as in "in".

Though discussion about proper Linux pronounciation is rendered moot by his own stance that he doesn't give a shit how anyone pronounces it.
Re:Proneenciation? by billbaggins · 2004-10-16 15:56 · Score: 1

Look in linux/kernel/SillySounds on your favorite kernel mirror for a file called english.au (or swedish.au if you prefer). If you don't have a favorite kernel mirror, you can just Google it.

(Not posting any direct links so nobody gets slashdotted.)

--
"The best argument against democracy is a five minute chat with the average voter."
--Winston Churchill
Re:Proneenciation? by MBCook · 2004-10-16 16:05 · Score: 1

Yeah, I thought about that. I think it's because we find it easier to say "lin-ux" than "leye-nux", the first "sounds more natural". People tend to go for a short vowel. I've only run across one person in the last few years who calls it "leye-nux". Everyone else calls it one of the other two (with the majority going with "lin-ux", since I'm in the US).
But if you see the name Linus an "Leenus", then you naturally go to "leenux".

--
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
Re:Proneenciation? by squarooticus · 2004-10-16 16:46 · Score: 1

So, in a more recent interview (maybe it was in Revolution OS, the movie?) Linus says specifically that people pronounce his name in different ways depending on what language they're speaking or whence they come, but Linux is always "linnucks".

FWIW, when I started using Linux back in '94, I pronounced it "lie-nucks" because that's how everyone around me pronounced it. There were always the few scattered wackos who insisted on pronouncing it "lean-nucks", but by 1995 or 1996 everyone had basically settled on "linnucks," where it remains today.

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[ home ]
Re:Proneenciation? by Hugonz · 2004-10-16 18:27 · Score: 1

It is a Roman name. It is pronounced "LEE-nus" in Latin. 'nuff said
Re:Proneenciation? by mailman-zero · 2004-10-16 20:17 · Score: 1

I have an Uncle named Linus who was born and raised in the USA by parents who were born and raised in the USA, and his name is pronounced Linn-us. I always thought the Peanuts character's name was the same until I was old enough to see a cartoon where it was pronounced differently. When I started with Linux in '96 I naturally pronounced it like my Uncle Linus' name. I think what comes most naturally to most American English speakers are Leye-nus and Linn-ux though. Linn-ux just feels easier to say to me. But what do I know? I pronounce the K in Knoppix like any German speaker would (I speak German, too) but I don't pronounce the G in GNOME. Don't even get me started on how to pronounce:
/etc/fstab /usr /src
I don't know if there are any "standards" out that explain how to verbalize such concepts. I always find myself having to explain to others exactly what I mean when I try to pronounce those my way.

--
Let's play video games with mailmanZERO
Re:Proneenciation? by Teemu+Alviola · 2004-10-16 20:33 · Score: 1

Depends where you are from. I pronounce it just 'linus' - If I'd pronounce it as 'lee-nus', that would just sound silly.
But then again, I'm not american.
Then theres that surname..that also gets mis-pronounced a lot.
Re:Proneenciation? by kinema · 2004-10-16 20:35 · Score: 1

The file that he is speaking of is always availiable on the official Linux kernel distribution site. I have included the link below.
http://kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/SillySounds/
Re:Proneenciation? by ztane · 2004-10-16 20:48 · Score: 1

Actually 94% of Finns wouldn't... remember that his mother tongue is actually Swedish and he pronounces the names like that... A Finn with Finnish as mother tongue would never pronounce the lone 'i' as as long as he does. Linus also pronounces the 'u' in somewhat front compared to Finnish-as-their-first-language-speaking.
Re:Proneenciation? by DunbarTheInept · 2004-10-16 20:58 · Score: 1

This wasn't always the case. I can remember when "lie-nux" was the more common pronounciation in the USA. It was about the time of the 1.1 linux kernel (sad that I mark time by that isntead of remembering what year it actually was...)

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Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Re:Proneenciation? by dbIII · 2004-10-16 21:59 · Score: 1

f you take RMS as an authority, it should be spelt LiGnuX, and I suppose pronounced the same way as "lick nuts" - or in the second attempt gnu/linux which would be prounounced "newoverleanucks", or perhaps the variables cancel out to "g/lix" or "geeoverlicks". I prefer to think that it is Linux Torvolds project and he says we can pronounce it any way we like.
Re:Proneenciation? by danila · 2004-10-17 00:25 · Score: 1

Russians pronounce it Lee-noos and Lee-nooks.

--
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
Re:Proneenciation? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 00:54 · Score: 0

"I assume most Finnish people pronounce it the way he does."

Yes. And especially Swedes since Linus is swedish speaking Finn. Also Estonian, Norwegian and Danish can propably pronounce it pretty good.

a swede eating Finnish speaking Finn.
Re:Proneenciation? by DannyO152 · 2004-10-17 03:05 · Score: 1

Quoting;
comic strip "Peanuts"
Having missed Linus Pauling, Nobel Laureate, advocate for Vitamin C.
But, I think of the Peanuts character first, as well. The name is found in the New Testament Bible, IIRC, and looks to be of Latin origin.
Re:Proneenciation? by Teemu+Alviola · 2004-10-17 03:10 · Score: 1

Exactly. Non-English people tend to pronounce even Windows the 'wrong' way.
..After all, its just an OS, despite how its supposed to be pronounced.
Re:Proneenciation? by Provocateur · 2004-10-17 03:23 · Score: 1

it used to be the test sound when you installed a soundcard under Linux

used to be? used to be?!?

I still use it to test my soundcard in sndconfig, you insensitive clod!

P.S.
I believe it's the only soundbyte on the entire internet where Linus talks to me, personally.

--
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
Re:Proneenciation? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 05:10 · Score: 0

I pronounce it LIE-nux

All hail the Gateness
Re:Proneenciation? by geminidomino · 2004-10-18 00:07 · Score: 1

You forgot all those warm fuzzy Charlie Brown specials!

Merry Christmas, Charlie Brown!
Snoopy, Come Home
It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown!
The valentines day one...
etc...

They pronounce it Lie-nus.
Re:Proneenciation? by BenjyD · 2004-10-18 10:06 · Score: 1

This makes me wonder why my Swedish friend, also called Linus, has never complained about everyone calling him L-eye-nus. Is there a difference between Finnish-Swedish and Swedish pronounciation?

I don't know by Colin+Smith · 2004-10-16 15:23 · Score: 4, Funny

But we got Jedi recognised as an official religion by writing it on the census paper.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2757067.stm

Maybe if you score out one of the existing candidates and write Linus on it instead...

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Deleted

Re:I don't know by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 17:05 · Score: 0

Try actually reading that article and you'll see that you're full of shit. That's turned into a popular urban leged.
Re:I don't know by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 03:30 · Score: 0

Sigh

There is no such thing as an "official religion". The listing of "Jedi" on the census report means nothing more than that smeone in the census office noticed that lots of people wrote "Jedi". It's a statistician honestly reporting a summary of what people wrote on the form, not any form of official sanction.

Summary by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 15:31 · Score: 0, Redundant

For those who don't want to RTFA, here are some highlights from Linus:

* Now, many of the volunteers end up getting paid, and maybe they can't be called "volunteers" any more if somebody ends up being silly enough to pay them for something they'd have done for free anyway.

* In real open source, you have the right to control your own destiny. When you play with it, mommy isn't going to tell you what you can and can not do, and not going to take your toy away from you when she thinks you are done. You're an adult, and you can make your own choices. That is when you get engaged.

* I don't think the lawsuits have necessarily made a huge direct difference, but I do think that it has made a lot more people realize that maybe Microsoft wasn't the "American Dream" after all, but just another greedy company that might be better off with some competition.

* Q. How can Linux avoid the security problems that have affected Windows?

A. Better design and actually caring about them. Having the guts to really fixing fundamental design mistakes, rather than trying to work around them,

No! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 15:31 · Score: 1, Funny

It should be pronounced Gee-N-You/Lun-ucks.

Thank you

Richard Stallman.

They missed the most important question... by boredMDer · 2004-10-16 15:33 · Score: 3, Funny

...whether or not he frequents Slashdot.

Seems important to me, anyway :-)

Re:They missed the most important question... by grcumb · 2004-10-16 16:28 · Score: 5, Funny

" ...whether or not he frequents Slashdot."

I do, but only for the goatse links.

Love,

Linus

--
Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.

Re:Ob. comment by polecat_redux · 2004-10-16 15:35 · Score: 4, Funny

you must be new here. Linus has done some amazing things

Really? From what I understand, he merely started a now ~15 y/o approximate clone of a pre-existing OS that is still not ready for widespread adoption on desktop systems (despite what many would have you believe).

And yes, I use Linux.

Obligatory LOTR Reference by Nova+Express · 2004-10-16 15:37 · Score: 5, Funny

Actually. Linus had to move to Portland in order to get closer to Redmond. Only in the place it was forged can he destroy the One OS, and liberate the free peoples from the shadow of the Dark Lord...

--
Lawrence Person (lawrencepersonh@gmailh.com (remove all "h"s to mail)

http://www.lawrenceperson.com/

Re:Obligatory LOTR Reference by Kogase · 2004-10-16 16:14 · Score: 2, Funny

This is not funny.
Re:Obligatory LOTR Reference by GreyWolf3000 · 2004-10-16 16:29 · Score: 1

Yeah, but man, when coupled with yours, the two together sure is.

--
Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
Re:Obligatory LOTR Reference by hawaiian717 · 2004-10-16 17:44 · Score: 1

One net to free them all. One net behind them. One net secures them all. And on the server, finds them.

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End of Line.
Re:Obligatory LOTR Reference by epyT-R · 2004-10-16 19:38 · Score: 1

A near-perfect fit! haha!
ftp://ftp.scene.org/pub/parties/2002/assemb ly02/wi ld/the_fellow_chip_by_amazement.mpg
Re:Obligatory LOTR Reference by TeknoHog · 2004-10-17 01:06 · Score: 1

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there also a Portland in Maine? Portland, Oregon would be reasonable though. The state is not mentioned in the article, by the way, though it does say 'Northwest'.

--
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
Re:Obligatory LOTR Reference by Kynde · 2004-10-17 21:01 · Score: 1

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there also a Portland in Maine? Portland, Oregon would be reasonable though. The state is not mentioned in the article, by the way, though it does say 'Northwest'.

and there's the remark about the constant raining, which points even more towards Oregon than the north-west remark, even when compared to Maine. ;-)

--
1 Earth is warming, 2 It's us, 3 it's royally bad, 4 we need to take action NOW
Re:Obligatory LOTR Reference by Kynde · 2004-10-17 23:33 · Score: 1

cheers, one of the truly better posts. made my day.

--
1 Earth is warming, 2 It's us, 3 it's royally bad, 4 we need to take action NOW
Re:Obligatory LOTR Reference by geminidomino · 2004-10-18 00:13 · Score: 1

Dude, don't do that! Your post has +1, Funny... You're a logic bomb waiting to happen!

Won't someone PLEASE think of the Evil Overlord's Masses of Androids?!

Volunteers by bob+beta · 2004-10-16 15:41 · Score: 0, Redundant

Now, many of the volunteers end up getting paid, and maybe they can't be called "volunteers" any more if somebody ends up being silly enough to pay them for something they'd have done for free anyway.

Uh, wow.

--
"What's the frequency Kenneth?"

You learn something new every day! by XxtraLarGe · 2004-10-16 15:50 · Score: 0, Redundant

From the article: Linus Torvalds [pronounced LEE-nus]

Just think, all these years I thought his name was Linus [pronounced LIE-nus]

--
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.

Re:You learn something new every day! by irc.goatse.cx+troll · 2004-10-16 16:31 · Score: 1

Only because there isn't a -1, Incorrect.

It's LIH-nus, as in "lindows".
Look around ftp.kernel.org for SillySounds and you can hear linus pronounce it himself.

--
Pain lasts, kid. Its how you know you're alive. Sometimes I think this growing up thing is just pain management-TheMaxx
Re:You learn something new every day! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 19:31 · Score: 0

What are you drunk?
Re:You learn something new every day! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 20:26 · Score: 0

At some Open Source event, I even hear people calling the product "Linix", instead of "Linux" (Stallman and O'Reilly for example). I never knew people called it like that in the US.

Leeh-nucks by slimyrubber · 2004-10-16 15:50 · Score: 1

I pronounce it Leeh-nucks... not that you'hd care.

--
[ I can not bring myself to believe that if knowledge presents danger, the solution is ignorance ] -- Isaac Asimov

Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by crucini · 2004-10-16 15:53 · Score: 3, Insightful

Q. How can Linux avoid the security problems that have affected Windows?
A. Better design and actually caring about them. Having the guts to really fixing fundamental design mistakes, rather than trying to work around them.

Some folks still think that *nix is inherently virus proof because anything a mere user runs couldn't touch the really important stuff in /bin. I think most Unix programmers understand by now that the really important stuff is under $HOME; what's under /bin is easily replaceable. There are many pathways for effective viruses on Linux - the biggest obstacle to viruses is the lack of standardization.

Maybe Linus is saying that as viruses start attacking Linux, he's willing to radically rethink permissions. GRsecurity and SElinux point in that direction, but wouldn't work for a normal user. Could there be a future Linux kernel that prevents an image library exploit from modifying your .bashrc?

Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by Saeger · 2004-10-16 16:00 · Score: 1

So what are the perms of the fuuuuuture?
-rw-r--r----- ... application, user, group, everybody?
(I really haven't thought or read much about this, if you couldn't tell)
--

--
Power to the Peaceful
Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 16:21 · Score: 0

It seems to me that the main problem with security under Windows is that double-click is for both opening a document and executing a program. The UI treats those two operations the same, even though the security implications are very different.

IT geeks tell users "don't double-click a file you weren't expecting to receive", but users have to double-click on things because that's how they read documents. They generally don't need to double-click on executables, but you can't expect an average user to keep track of which of .xls .scr .doc .bat .jpg .txt .vbs .exe .psd .com .pdf .gif and so on are documents and which are programs. And ignorance of file extensions is encouraged by MS with that damned "hide file extensions for known types" setting.

Most Linux apps won't let you execute a program by double-clicking. Once an executable is on your desktop though, most Linux file managers behave much the same as Windows, and happily execute on double-click. The executable flag, at least, offers some protection. It's certainly better than the Windows thing of using a part of the filename (which is determined by the person sending you the file, and hidden by default).
Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by techno-vampire · 2004-10-16 16:24 · Score: 1

Some folks still think that *nix is inherently virus proof because anything a mere user runs couldn't touch the really important stuff in /bin.
What people need to realize is that permissions can always be changed; even if you set the immutable bit, you can still unset it. What properly designed and implemented permissions do is make it hard enough to do any damage that script kiddies won't be able to find cheat-sheets for virus writing. Only those that can work it out for themselves will be able to write viruses and there aren't many out there that are both able to do so and interested in putting in the effort. Not exactly security through obscurity, more like making it more effort than script kiddies will be willing to put into it.

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Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by Fallen+Andy · 2004-10-16 16:24 · Score: 1

Eh? The kernel very definitely should mind it's own business! (Even on a non microkernel architecture the kernel's responsibilities shouldn't be to be a nanny). Linux *is* mostly based on a classic UNIX architecture and hence exploits can still happen if admins are dumb enough not to grok security - UNIX has a discretionary security policy (you get to be as stupid as you are), whereas what you're asking for is a mandatory security policy (we won't let you do anything without sacrificing goats to our deity). Guess which one performs better? Mostly, human societies and technologies are based on the former. I sort of don't like the latter. Like a hitech version of Burma or North Korea... The real answer is to focus on solving the criminal issues associated with these things trans-nationally, not getting more paranoid every time we go to sleep. (I've seen where that leads and the word xenophobia pops into my head unbidden).
Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by k98sven · 2004-10-16 16:52 · Score: 1

by now that the really important stuff is under $HOME

No. Perhaps for the user, but not from the system perspective. A user can clobber his $HOME simply by running an uncareful rm -rf.
If you give people the power to modify data, you have to expect people to also occasionaly screw up their own data.. you have to draw the line somewhere. And that 'somewhere' is at compromising other users data, and the system itself.
Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by fossa · 2004-10-16 16:53 · Score: 1

Just a small wish about file extensions: Can we simplify things and have .image, .video, .audio, .doc[ument] or something along those lines? Most of the time I don't really care what compression algorithm this image was compressed with. If I do, I can always view more detailed information about a file (e.g. with the "file" command on Linux, or possibly a right click->properties, or even show the info in one of the file manager views, whatever).

Though, I suppose this may be cumbersome on today's systems because some apps only handle e.g. .bmp, while others handle many image formats. To me this is a design flaw, but so fundamentally ingrained into systems with "applications" as to be a lost cause at the moment (I dream of a system where I only need to worry about, say, pdf support once. The system supports pdf. Done. None of this "oh, this program opens pdfs; that one can edit them; and this third one can save its documents as pdfs; but this other app can only save as postscript, so you need to use this converter...").

I'm trailing on into a rant at this point, but filenames (which shouldn't really be necessary in the first place, but assuming we're using a system that demands them) are the domain of the user, and should not be restricted to certain characters, or "must end with .extension" or any of that sillinies. Are you telling me that my 21st century computer can't keep track of what type of file it has? Oh, you are? In the name of backwards compatibility? Probably a necessary evil, but sheesh I hate it so.
Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by dustman · 2004-10-16 17:15 · Score: 4, Insightful

Some folks still think that *nix is inherently virus proof because anything a mere user runs couldn't touch the really important stuff in /bin. I think most Unix programmers understand by now that the really important stuff is under $HOME; what's under /bin is easily replaceable.

I think you are dismissing things too easily. The fact that the stuff under /bin is easily replaceable is exactly what makes unix "inherently virus proof".

The stuff stored under $HOME is mostly data, not executable (except for scripts, which are easy to doublecheck). If I find out I have been hacked or virused, I just shrug, tar up /home, reinstall my stuff, and carefully restore /home. On a computer where I am the only user (a fair comparison, if it's one person's primary workstation), that will only take maybe an hour of my attention if I'm really paranoid about checking all the scripts.

Viruses aren't a problem because they can only hit stuff in /bin if there's a security problem (which are much rarer than the windows world), and even if they do, it's easy to restore /bin. They can hit $HOME, but by its nature $HOME is not a good target.
Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by spuzzzzzzz · 2004-10-16 17:41 · Score: 2, Insightful

Are you telling me that my 21st century computer can't keep track of what type of file it has?

Of course it can:
$ file test.wav test.wav: RIFF (little-endian) data, WAVE audio, Microsoft PCM, 16 bit, mono 44100 Hz $ mv test.wav test.mp3 $ file test.mp3 test.mp3: RIFF (little-endian) data, WAVE audio, Microsoft PCM, 16 bit, mono 44100 Hz

Any program that can only tell a file type by its extension is poorly written.

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Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by Tony-A · 2004-10-16 17:56 · Score: 4, Insightful

Maybe Linus is saying that as viruses start attacking Linux, he's willing to radically rethink

Correct at that point. It's not just permissions or any other one thing. When you have to react you try to get at the root of the problem as much as possible.

One advantage of Unix is that it is inherently multi-user. If it's just me on the computer, why should I be limited to just one identity? Seems I should be able to run a browser under its own identity and if it catches viruses and whatever, all it can mess up is itself. Adds a wee bit of a hassle in that I have an extra step anytime I want to lift something out of the browser, but has the distinct advantage that I'm in control, not the browser.

When Linux gets attacked, you get responses from several levels. You do not have to wait for official patches. If the official sources are still asleep you'll find something at least marginally effective on Slashdot. Some of the early stuff may do more damage than good, but in the heat of battle you are considerably better off if you can choose your own optimum in the space between "must do something now" and "best to wait for the official patch". The situation may resemble the Keystone Kops, but it is effective and there is a high probability that at the end something does actually get fixed instead of some kinda-sorta workaround.

Some folks still think that *nix is inherently virus proof
Technically, *nix is vulnerable, but there will be enough response and effective enough response that the malware won't get much of anywhere. A simple count of vulnerabilities is a poor indicator of the success of exploiting those vulnerabilities.
Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by killjoe · 2004-10-16 19:03 · Score: 1

doesn't the 2.6 kernel have the capabilities model already compiled? Linux is well on the way to becoming the most secure OS around. It won't be long until people write scripts to lock down your linux so tight nobody can hack it.

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evil is as evil does
Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by QuantumG · 2004-10-16 19:09 · Score: 1

I know the line is blurred very differently when it comes to Open Source software but the problem is not the user running rm -rf on their home dir. The problem is an untrusted application (one the user didn't write) doing the same. It's fair to say we can trust rm. It isn't fair to say we can trust any arbitary binary we download from the net. As for root vs non-root, the issue is mute because most binary distributed linux apps require root to install the software.

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How we know is more important than what we know.
Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by DunbarTheInept · 2004-10-16 20:20 · Score: 1

that the really important stuff is under $HOME; what's under /bin is easily replaceable.

Yes, but for a virus to effectively *SPREAD*, it's not enough to just muck with a single user's files. As a damanging payload, erasing a person's own files is effective, but a payload does not a virus make.

the biggest obstacle to viruses is the lack of standardization.

Which is why attacking some files in $HOME isn't particularly useful if your want your virus to propigate. My $HOME doesn't contain the same things to try to exploit as your $HOME.

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Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by DunbarTheInept · 2004-10-16 20:27 · Score: 1

Any program that can only tell a file type by its extension is poorly written.

Although I think the unix design is almost always better than the Windows design, this is one area where I disagree with the unix way of doing things. In order to detect file type via the magic number system, you have to open the file and read the first few bytes. In order to detect the file type via extension, you don't have to open the file - just look at the filename in the directory. Thus when you are trying to do things like "sort this directory by type of file", it is much more efficient to do it using file extensions than magic numbers, because with extensions you only need to read through the directory and look at the filenames, instead of having to open each and every file.

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Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 22:12 · Score: 0

The issue youraise is as far as I can see, a strawman. Think of the trust you need.

If "ls" is compromised, for example, you can no longer trust your sysetm or any of the data on it. You must restore everything. If scripts in your HOME directory (or jpg's, etc) are compromised, you can use administrator rights to find the problem and isolate it. Your system is secure and you can trust your system not to continue being pathogenic to you.

Yes, you lost your data, but if "ls" is compromised, you cannot tell what is broken and what is not.
Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by danila · 2004-10-17 00:22 · Score: 1

One advantage of Unix is that it is inherently multi-user. If it's just me on the computer, why should I be limited to just one identity? Seems I should be able to run a browser under its own identity and if it catches viruses and whatever, all it can mess up is itself.
A possible approach is to observe the usage patterns of a typical desktop user. He rarely uses more than one program at a time (I don't mean multitaskin, just that he doesn't use several programs in a tandem). So you can safely limit permissions for most programs to a couple of files that he works on. This way a broswer would be able to corrupt the bookmarks and the files you download, but it won't be able to touch your personal photos or MP3s you bought through another program.

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Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by argent · 2004-10-17 02:50 · Score: 1

Thus when you are trying to do things like "sort this directory by type of file", it is much more efficient to do it using file extensions than magic numbers

"UNIX applications don't depend as much on the file extension as Windows applications" doesn't imply "You can't use a standard file extension for your files on UNIX".
Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by Tony-A · 2004-10-17 04:54 · Score: 1

A possible approach is to observe the usage patterns of a typical desktop user.

Both in computer and meat spaces.
Even when stuff in run in tandem, you tend to have a few places it makes sense to be able to access. In box, out box, desk top, and if (s)he's out and it's important, the chair.

A problem with security (most implementations at least) is that it tends to be hard and brittle. NT security ensures that if any program can access a file then any (other) program can access that file. An office and its desk tends to be much richer. You have stuff out in the open, stuff in closed drawers, stuff in locked drawers. You have people who lock their office door when they leave and people who never bother to close the office door when they leave. Security isn't a yes/no proposition, there are degrees of security, and bluntly most stuff does not warrant a high degree of security even if it is on a computer. The executives who do not want any security are right. In many cases, everything they do should be open and above-board. In the few cases where they do need security they rightly do not want that security to be subservient to IT.

If you put your potted petunias in a safe because it's more secure, somebody will come along and make a fool of you. That's much of what plagues Microsoft. Just a check box with "Always trust Microsoft" and the results are quite predictable. Demonstrably false claimes of security will be demonstrated false.

OpenBSD is an interesting case. I suspect that the baiting of script kiddies is more of a game and a reality check, where the real target is the elimination of bugs. What you want to uncover bugs is something spectacular but that doesn't really harm much of anything. Hidden damage from bugs does a lot more real damage.
Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by k98sven · 2004-10-17 07:28 · Score: 1

the problem is not the user running rm -rf on their home dir. The problem is an untrusted application (one the user didn't write) doing the same.

Perhaps this is a problem. But it's not one which is solvable. Software can be malicious, true, but it can also be buggy, or the user can have misunderstood how to use it, or any other number of scenarios exist here which can end up unintentionally screwing up user data.

It just can't be done. The operating system can't read minds and figure out the users intentions with every command he or she runs.

It isn't fair to say we can trust any arbitary binary we download from the net.

I didn't say that either. But I do say that it's not the business of the OS to determine whether a program should be trusted or not. That must be the choice of the user. However, I think it's a good idea for the software to *inform* the user when they run a program which may not be trustworthy.

I don't believe the issue is moot because root is required to install the software. I think that is a safeguard in itself. It's a warning flag: When you do something as root, you have to be completely sure of what you're doing.

In my experience, most Windows users default to running as Administrator. By comparison, most Unix users never login as root. In fact, a number of Linux distros don't even allow you to login as root by default. It makes the installation of new software a non-casual event.

It's a pretty important factor. If windows users needed to type an administrator password every time they installed software, there would be a lot less adware and spyware installed everywhere.
Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by crucini · 2004-10-17 08:27 · Score: 2, Insightful

I think you are still viewing the problem from an old Unix viewpoint of hacking, not viruses. Maybe the point of the virus was to forward itself to your friends, pretending to be you. Maybe its point was to use your computer as a spam relay for 30 minutes. Maybe the virus will find all your original content (word processing documents, HTML, GIMP files, etc) and insert spam into them. Therefore the ability to restore /bin is not very relevant.
Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by crucini · 2004-10-17 08:33 · Score: 1

Technically, *nix is vulnerable, but there will be enough response and effective enough response that the malware won't get much of anywhere.

Response? Only works if users will download fixes. Most of the huge Microsoft problems occurred after Microsoft had responded with a fix. Once there are tons of Linux PCs operated by normal people who don't care about computers, there will be a tendency towards Linux viruses.
Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 12:38 · Score: 0

but otoh if you are doing things like "click to open this text file" I sure hope its not going to depend on the fact that this file is called README.TXT (or worse...README.TXT.EXE).
if you just keep the policy of using extensions, but relying on magicnumbers for where it matters, I'm happy.
Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by QuantumG · 2004-10-17 18:50 · Score: 1

Giving the user ways to run untrusted applications in chroot jails and with restricted library/syscall access is a good start. Almost all the ways to do this on any platform, linux or win32 or bsd or whatever, are unnecessarily complicated.

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How we know is more important than what we know.
Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by DunbarTheInept · 2004-10-17 19:49 · Score: 1

The dual extension bug (.TXT.EXE files, for example, or .DOC.EXE files) is not a problem endemic to using filename extensions. It's a problem endemic to using them in an *inconsist* broken way. Some Windows apps looked for the first thing after any dot, and saw the TXT, while others looked for the last letters after the last dot, and thus saw the EXE. That error is purely because the filetype checks were being done in dissimilar user code, isntead of in a universal library everyone uses the same way.

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Re:Fixing fundamental design mistakes? by Tony-A · 2004-10-17 21:23 · Score: 1

Most of the huge Microsoft problems occurred after Microsoft had responded with a fix.

Not very effective were they?

Response? Only works if users will download fixes.
It works when users upload fixes.

"You need to run this but I won't tell you what is in it or what it does."
Not just once but repeatedly.
They guys doing the malware will run it and compare to find the exact differences.

Re:Portland by j1m+5n0w · 2004-10-16 15:53 · Score: 5, Funny

From the article:

Q. Why did you choose to live in Portland, and what's your impression so far of the Northwest? One person told me you moved there because it looks like Finland. Is that true?
A. Well, the Northwest is certainly more like Finland in the sense that California is not like Finland.
But, no, I don't think that was the reason. Although part of it was definitely that we thought that Portland was more "livable," being smaller and less busy than Silicon Valley. Whether that is because I grew up in Finland, I don't know.
And being from Finland, the horror tales of constant rain didn't scare me as much as they do the native Californians.

I (as a Portlander) for one welcome our new Finish overlord.

-jim

Quote by xgamer04 · 2004-10-16 15:59 · Score: 3, Funny

Definitely the best line:

Q. Why did you choose to live in Portland, and what's your impression so far of the Northwest? One person told me you moved there because it looks like Finland. Is that true?

A. Well, the Northwest is certainly more like Finland in the sense that California is not like Finland.

and I don't know why, but it made me laugh.

--
When you look at the state of the world, how can you not become a radical, liberal anarchist?

Re:Quote by michaeldot · 2004-10-16 16:07 · Score: 4, Informative

Me too. There's a touch of Douglas Adams about it... "The spaceship fleet hung in the air in precisely the way a ton of bricks doesn't."
Re:Quote by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 16:08 · Score: 0

Reminded me of a Hitchhiker quote - "The ships hung in the sky much the same way that bricks don't."

Minnesota by SuperQ · 2004-10-16 16:01 · Score: 3, Interesting

Being from Finland, Linus would be very at home in Minnesota, the land and trees (yes.. wood, finland's major national resouce) are very much alike. There are a lot of fins here as well, many who still speak Finnish (although Linus is a sweed-fin)

Having visited Finland for a couple weeks in January, (including a trip up to lapland), their winters are somewhat more mild than Minnesota. The temperature in Pello was about 2C higher than MN at the time.. Pello is about 30km north of the arctic circle if I remember correctly. Minneapolis is about as far north as Paris is.

Re:Minnesota by argent · 2004-10-17 01:52 · Score: 2, Funny

Linus would be very at home in Minnesota

A lot of people from that part of the world seem to be.

I'd love to hear Garrison Keillor interview Linus.

So long as they didn't get into some kind of understated irony competition, of course. I don't think space-time could take it, you'd end up in some kind of conversational singularity.

Re:Portland? by linuxpyro · 2004-10-16 16:03 · Score: 3, Funny

Isn't it obvious? He's gradually moving in so the secret anti-Microsoft secret commando mission can take place. Give it another couple months and Linus and his cronies will have infiltrated Microsoft.

--
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Re:Ob. comment by MP3Chuck · 2004-10-16 16:04 · Score: 4, Informative

Is that somehow his fault? Hell, read his original announcement on Usenet. He started it as a hobby. Now it runs on practically any architecture I've ever heard of, and then some. There are millions of people around the world developing for it. And one of the biggest corporations in the world sees it as competition.

I'd say that's pretty amazing.

--
Who doesn't like free music?

Great Idea. Not in the crowds. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 16:08 · Score: 0

Love it. Just what I'd expect of Linus. Lower pressure environment, less traffic, noise, more
wildlife, more interesting weather (oops: not so sure I like that one - living in Athens GR at the moment...).

These days, offices in california are so 19th century...

Hope he gets time to write about the local birds/fish and strange eccentrics. Not to
mention the neurotoxic local "brew"...

(Big Hint to Tim O'Reilly - I bet Linus could write a nice book which is not computer orientated...)

Re:Great Idea. Not in the crowds. by erick99 · 2004-10-16 17:21 · Score: 0, Offtopic

You are fawning at the mouth.

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Re:Portland by gooman · 2004-10-16 16:15 · Score: 2, Funny

Being from SoCal; What is this "rain" that you speak of?

--
"Kittens give Morbo gas!"

I find this quote more interesting by Talez · 2004-10-16 16:19 · Score: 0

Q. What do you think about Microsoft's "shared source" program and similar programs offering some access to its code to engage developers?

A. I think they are fundamentally flawed, because there is no way their "shared source" thing can ever really engage a developer. It's like showing somebody the goods and telling them that they can play with all the cool toys, but that they can never really be part of it, and whatever they create will be owned and controlled by Microsoft.

Now if you replace the word Microsoft with "the community" you get what is in essence the GPL license.

Is this loss of freedom and control bad simply because its a loss of freedom and control or is it simply because it would require Microsoft to own the code whereas the community wouldn't abuse it and respect the contribution.

Re:I find this quote more interesting by GreyWolf3000 · 2004-10-16 16:26 · Score: 5, Insightful

Your comparison is incorrect. The GPL prevents you from taking the code and leaving the community with it, not restricting your use while being "part of it."
Anti-GPL arguments tend to boil down to one issue--if the code were truly "free," then you ought to be able to do anything you want with it, including slipping the original authors a deuce and taking the code and making it proprietary.

The GPL isn't designed to protect the code, it's designed to protect the community that wrote the code.

--
Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
Re:I find this quote more interesting by Talez · 2004-10-16 16:32 · Score: 1

I think you're half right.

GPL doesn't allow you to take your ball and go home but people do stop you from playing on their court and force you to make a copy of your own court and make your own game.

Although, my perspective was more from a small coder that would want to incorporate GPL code into a project of his. Either way, he can't use the "toys" without relinquishing his code.
Re:I find this quote more interesting by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 16:40 · Score: 0

It's bad because you don't get the control. Not many people, I think, care about what Microsoft does and does not own anyway. Proof of this is provided by the number of illegal copies of Microsoft software floating around out there.

M.
Re:I find this quote more interesting by timeOday · 2004-10-16 17:42 · Score: 1

Now if you replace the word Microsoft with "the community" you get what is in essence the GPL license.
Wow, if Microsoft and the free software community were anything alike, you'd have a pretty good analogy going there. Oh well maybe next time.
Re:I find this quote more interesting by chromatic · 2004-10-16 17:56 · Score: 1

Sure he can. He just can't redistribute code to which he doesn't hold the copyright without following the terms of the GPL or making some other arrangement with the copyright holder.

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Re:I find this quote more interesting by killjoe · 2004-10-16 18:54 · Score: 1

Why does the small coder feel entitled to somebody elses code in the first place? That seems silly on the face of it.

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evil is as evil does
Re:I find this quote more interesting by smallpaul · 2004-10-16 19:10 · Score: 2, Insightful

Anti-GPL arguments tend to boil down to one issue--if the code were truly "free," then you ought to be able to do anything you want with it, including slipping the original authors a deuce and taking the code and making it proprietary.

Nobody can make your code proprietary. You have a copy of it and the same rights you always had. What a person can do with BSD-licensed code is incorporate it into something with a more restrictive license. That doesn't hurt the original creators of the code. It just opens the code up to more uses. For the same reason that I don't consider unauthorized copying "theft" or "piracy", I don't consider reuse of code in propietary software "taking it and making it proprietary". The original owner is not deprived of their code.
Re:I find this quote more interesting by chip_s_ahoy · 2004-10-16 20:17 · Score: 2, Funny

Sick of gentoo zealots throwing plugs in completely unrelated topics? Me too!

Hey! There is an ebuild that will automate that sig for you! And it will run really fast since you set the compiler flags yourself!
Re:I find this quote more interesting by Svennig · 2004-10-16 21:04 · Score: 1

If I had mod points I'd give you Informative for that post. BSD style licenses (inc Apache) doesnt seem to do any harm to the community!
Re:I find this quote more interesting by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 22:01 · Score: 0

Ah, but in the landscape of software patents, DMCA, etc., good luck if said company that lifts your code then turns around and accuses YOU of violating their IP, the DMCA, etc.

Read up on that Farnsworth guy, and his almost futile battles with Sarnoff and RCA, if you think it can't happen. Yes, the Farnsworth guy who invented TV.
Re:I find this quote more interesting by Yartrebo · 2004-10-17 01:08 · Score: 1

It's a minor dialemna introduced by copyright law (and certain aspects of contract law) existing in the first place.

If copyright didn't exist (and contracts couldn't be used to replace it), a GPL clause would be of only minor benefit (and if the law was that source code must accompany all binaries, this benefit would cease too) is that it requires source to be made available.

However, copyright does exist. You can think of the GPL as having the maximum possible recursively calculated freedom. The first copy might have a bit less freedom (you can't screw others and make it proprietary with your superior marketing and manipulation skills), but copies further down the line have a lot more freedom than otherwise.
Re:I find this quote more interesting by Talez · 2004-10-17 02:14 · Score: 1

They don't have to feel entitled. Linus' original quote was that you get shown all these cool toys and you can't incorporate them with the Microsoft shared source license.

My counter point was that you can't exactly do the same with GPL toys.
Re:I find this quote more interesting by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 03:56 · Score: 0

My counter point was that you can't exactly do the same with GPL toys.

Wrong. You can as long as you do not distribute. If you want to distribute the binary, then you must give the source. You have a choice here: to distribute or not.

As for MS shared source, try distributing the binaries and/or source to folks outside the shared-source program (you will be in jail soon). So you have no choice.

And why is it that every "small coder" tries to make a fast buck by taking other's code and not giving anything back ? Go and write everything from scratch. You have no divine right to what other people produce.
Re:I find this quote more interesting by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 04:02 · Score: 0

They do harm the community. Its called an unbalanced ecosystem where the traffic is one-way, one side enriching from another without giving anything back. This approach does not work with mother nature and often destroys/limits the biggest power of the community: motivation. Thats why BSD OSes are not finding the user-base that linux already has this fact will become increasingly clear in the future. I would hate to see somebody else taking my code and putting a license on it that prevents me from looking at it anymore.
Re:I find this quote more interesting by GreyWolf3000 · 2004-10-17 04:59 · Score: 1

I agree that if you as the developer don't mind that companies take your code and use it in their proprietary code, than the BSD license is fine.
If, however, you value the freedoms that an OSI license gives your software, then you don't want your license to grant others the ability to take away those freedoms.

I'm not an advocate for everyone using the GPL--I just disagree with the sentiment that the BSD License is "more free," because it's an oversimplification. When I write code, I don't want other people to use that code to take away those freedoms from their customers. You might not care, but at this point the debate isn't about being "more" or "less" "free," but rather more about author discretion.

--
Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
Re:I find this quote more interesting by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 05:19 · Score: 0

> That doesn't hurt the original creators of the code. It just opens the code up to more uses.

Like making a proprietary version, and using one's market leverage to make the new version widespread while perverting the standards to prevent to original, free code from interoperating with the new version?

Honestly, the only uses the GPL prevents are ones I wouldn't want to see, anyhow. If you don't like the GPL, you can write your own code instead of using code against the will of the authors who GPL'd their code.
Re:I find this quote more interesting by bgarcia · 2004-10-17 05:33 · Score: 1

Anti-GPL arguments tend to boil down to one issue--if the code were truly "free," then you ought to be able to do anything you want with it, including slipping the original authors a deuce and taking the code and making it proprietary.
Actually, the GPL doesn't prohibit this. The original authors are free to license the code under several different licenses if they so choose. The scenario you just pointed out is not only possible, but has actually been done in the past!
What the GPL prohibits is anyone BUT the original authors from making the code proprietary.

--
I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
Re:I find this quote more interesting by killjoe · 2004-10-17 06:17 · Score: 1

I don't think you understand the meaning of "can't". With MS shared source you can't. You can't even talk about it, you can't show it to others, and even worse you could be sued later if you looked at it and then worked on something else.

With the GPL you can. There is a very small consession you have to make (only if you distribute it) but you can.

--
evil is as evil does

Finns and Penguin Fins by einhverfr · 2004-10-16 16:19 · Score: 1

There are a lot of fins here as well, many who still speak Finnish (although Linus is a sweed-fin)

Just for reference someone from Finnland is a Finn. A fish has fins.

Makes you wonder if the fact that penguins are the main birds with fins, if this is a pun about Linus's nationality...

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LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP

Re:Finns and Penguin Fins by and+by · 2004-10-16 16:54 · Score: 1

And just for further reference, a Finn is a person from Finland.

My head is swimming too.

Re:Ob. comment by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 16:21 · Score: 0

Yeah, he made a clone of the UNIX system call + signal interface. Big deal, right?

The *kernel* (which is really the only thing Linus has anything to do with) has been ready for the desktop for at least 5 years.

Re:Too rainy for Linus' convertible in Portland? by LemonFire · 2004-10-16 16:22 · Score: 1

Excerpt from an earlier article

Q: You moved from Finland. How do you like living in Silicon Valley.

A: Some parts I love. I have a convertible. I will never ever move to a place where I can't drive a convertible. I like the dynamics. Sometimes it's sad how you go into a random restaurant and all the tables around you talk about technology. At the same time, it is nice to be where you understand the people. Genetically maybe not very homogenous. But perspective wise, it's a nice place to be. It's too crowded. It's too expensive.

My question now is for you guys living in or knowing about Portland, will it too rainy for Linus' convertible in Portland?

Re:Ob. comment by michaeldot · 2004-10-16 16:23 · Score: 1

Linus developed/works on the kernel, which given that it's arguably superior to the NT/XP kernel, is every bit ready for widespread adoption on desktop systems.

What is lacking for Linux is a consistent GUI layer, so expected of a desktop OS these days. (For most desktop users, the GUI *is* the OS.)

That's mainly because it takes a lot of coordinated resources to bring something so all encompassing to fruition, with fundamental design decisions that must permeate the OS, and there is no one company that can impose those decisions on its OS and have everyone instantly adopt them, unlike Microsoft or Apple or Be could/can.

That is a weakness of the open source approach to building an OS, but ultimately it will get there.

Re:Ob. comment by pnatural · 2004-10-16 16:36 · Score: 2, Insightful

There are millions of people around the world developing for it.

I agree with your sentiment. I use linux daily (posting from konqi on gentoo). But I have a hard time believing there are at least two million folks world wide that are "developing" for linux. Maybe a few hundred thousand, but I can't fathom two million or more.

If you have a source to back up your claim, please post it. TIA.

BTW, I agree that it's amazing.

Re:Too rainy for Linus' convertible in Portland? by j1m+5n0w · 2004-10-16 16:37 · Score: 1

My question now is for you guys living in or knowing about Portland, will it too rainy for Linus' convertible in Portland?

It's been unusually dry so far this fall, but I don't expect that'll last too much longer. He'll probably have to leave the top up all winter and most of the spring and what's left of the fall. In the summer, it's actually pretty dry here.

-jim

he is actually Swedish... by CaptainPinko · 2004-10-16 16:39 · Score: 1

I he is actually Swedish. There is a small group of ethnic Swedes living in Finnland. Just check the Wiki.

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Your CPU is not doing anything else, at least do something.

Re:he is actually Swedish... by ayn0r · 2004-10-16 16:47 · Score: 3, Informative

Err, no, he isn't. Swedish is one of the two official languages in Finland. Saying Linus is from Sweden just because he happens to speak Swedish is like like saying all english speaking Americans are actually British.
Re:he is actually Swedish... by CaptainPinko · 2004-10-16 19:36 · Score: 1

I'm not talking about jsut speaking Swedish, but I was under the impression that he was from a seperate ethic group. For example my great grandmother was born in Germany and spoke German. Same with my Grandmother. Yet, they are both a 100% Polish since they lived with Polaks only married Polaks. They formed an independent community within Germany. (Westphalia region perhaps?). I was under the impression (maybe even read something to that effect somewhere...) that this was the case of Swedish-speaking Finns. Anyone know the history of them?

--
Your CPU is not doing anything else, at least do something.
Re:he is actually Swedish... by DunbarTheInept · 2004-10-16 20:55 · Score: 3, Informative

There is an attitude in Europe that we Americans often don't grok - people's percieved nationality sticks with them long after they emigrate, and even extends to their offspring. Hence a person who grew up in Finland, is a native-born citizen of Finland, is still often called a Swede if his parents are Swedish, or his parents' parents were all Swedish, and so on. Although here in the US we often talk of being from a nationality of our ancestors, we don't really mean it in the same way.

Conan O'Brian might call himself "Irish" on TV, but he and his audience know that that's not really true in any signifigant way - in all ways that matter he's an American first. This is a bit different than the attitude in Europe.

--
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Re:he is actually Swedish... by Hinhule · 2004-10-16 20:56 · Score: 0

All finns used to learn swedish as a mandatory second language in school. I think they removed it from being mandatory a few years ago but many still learn it.
Re:he is actually Swedish... by ztane · 2004-10-16 21:01 · Score: 2, Informative

Well, Finland was part of Sweden until 1809... so Swedish was the official language back then. The upper class and most people along the west coast were Swedish speaking. And that's why nowadays, many of the towns along the west coast are bilingual. Ethnical differences do not exist, it's just that if there's no pressure to do otherwise, you'll probably teach your mother tongue to your children as well. And while 6% of the population speak swedish as their first language, it's being taught in schools as compulsory subject to the remaining 94% (of course those 6% have Finnish as a compulsory subject as well, but many of them speak good Finnish even before school), and the country is officially bilingual there's no reason to do otherwise.
Re:he is actually Swedish... by Deternal · 2004-10-16 23:48 · Score: 1

Interesting - since up till about something like 1800-1840 Sweden was actually a part of Denmark - as far as I remember Finland liberated at about the same time Sweden liberated from the Danish kingdom. Of course Swedish people tend to forget that :)

The Norwegians haven't - but their kingdom is only a bit over 100 years old anyway [Norway was a part of the Danish kingdom too]
Re:he is actually Swedish... by Dovregubbens+Hall · 2004-10-17 00:52 · Score: 1

Actually, there seems to be some conflict between Swedish Finns and Finns. Since, as you note, the Swedes were the conquerors (they had that habit for a while), there seems to be a strange bitterness. Nowadays the swedish finns are minority, and I have noted that most finns hate learning swedish in school.
But what really surprised me was when I met a Swedish-Finnish girl last year. She said that she would not speak Swedish if out on the town in Helsinki, she would be afraid to get a fist in her face. Allthough Norway was a colony under Sweden for 90 years, there is certainly nothing like that in Norway.
That someone would dream of hitting her is itself very weird: She was a very beautiful blonde, with the kind of appearance that would stop wars...
Re:he is actually Swedish... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 00:59 · Score: 0

It's still mandatory, but you no longer need to take an exam in Swedish in the high school finals ("matriculation examination").
However, most people still do take it, because they've already had to endure years of mandatory Swedish classes and filling out another exam is only positive for your career.
Re:he is actually Swedish... by KjetilK · 2004-10-17 01:15 · Score: 1

Huh? I'm Norwegian and I must admit I'm really confused about what you wrote...
Norway ended up on Danish rule in the Middle Ages, and was pretty much at the mercy of the two regional "super-powers" Denmark and Sweden for much of our history.
The details are complex, but the Swedes played an important role in defeating Napoleon in the battle of Leipzig, while Denmark was pretty much on Napoleon's side. In the middle of this Norway tried to declare independence, getting a constitution and so on. However, that's not what the superpowers had in mind. So, in 1814, Norway was ceded to Sweden. Norway continued to establish a local rule, and adopted parliamentarism in 1890. In 1905, the Norwegians tried again: Us: "we want independence", Swedish King: "No, you don't", Us: "Yes, we do!", Swedish King: "No, you don't", Us: "Shut up, you idiot!", Swedish King: "damn, who wants a pile of rock anyway". Independence was 1905-07-07, so not quite 100 years yet... At that time, Norway was probably the poorest country in Europe, so he thought he didn't loose a lot...
So, Denmark and Sweden were never very friendly towards each other back in those days, but I can't understand where idea of that Sweden was a part of Denmark, comes from, allthough some smaller regions has had funny borders... Nowadays we're all good friends, though.
As for Finnland, they has had some of the same history as we do, but they were caught between Sweden, Russia, and Germany, in fact...

--
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
Re:he is actually Swedish... by argent · 2004-10-17 01:57 · Score: 1

Saying Linus is from Sweden just because he happens to speak Swedish is like like saying all english speaking Americans are actually British.

Every English-speaking American I've ever met turned out to be from England, Australia/New Zealand, or South Africa.

Americans can fool you into thinking they're speaking English, but no matter how long you live here and how well you learn their curious language you inevitably end up running into amazing new constructions they drop like weapons of mass distraction into otherwise syntactically correct English speech.
Re:he is actually Swedish... by iantri · 2004-10-17 04:14 · Score: 1

If this is the same attitude that we see in Canada, I think you misunderstand -- people refer to THEMSELVES as being of their home country.. cultural differences are not (depending on where you are) perceieved to be undesirable, and such people are free to practice their culture.
This would be as oppposed to the American "melting pot" approach, where you are expected to quickly assimilate into the mainstream and become "American".
Re:he is actually Swedish... by Deternal · 2004-10-17 04:34 · Score: 1

Well Sweden was a part of denmark, I'm not entirely sure about the dates though. Actually Skåne still has a small group who wants that part to become part of Denmark again.

Anyway, my point on that was that Norway is genuinely aware of how young it's independence is - while Sweden is not.

The Danish kingdom was rather big at one point, spanning both Sweden, Norway, parts of Finland (probably the same part referred to in the parent) and parts of Germany.

One of the main reasons Denmark has lost so much country is in fact because the French kings did not like the big country to the north (too powerfull), and since the big countries decided the outcomes of wars at that time, the decisions where generally unfavorable to Denmark.
Re:he is actually Swedish... by DunbarTheInept · 2004-10-17 19:36 · Score: 1

The thread I was respoding to was making the implied claim that Linus' Swedish heritige makes it wrong to call him Finish. That's very different from what you're talking about. It would be like claiming that it would be wrong to call someone Canadian if his parents are both Asian. That's a claim that seems very wrong to people from the New World (both Canadian and USA and elsewhere), and that wrongness is what the immediate parent to my post was complaining based on. I was just pointing out how it might not mean the same thing as how we percieve it.

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Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

Re:Troll by louisykarma · 2004-10-16 16:39 · Score: 0, Troll

Oh, forgive me for the American-centric bias. Do European coders get outsourced offshore too?

Microsoft's PR problem by ayn0r · 2004-10-16 16:40 · Score: 3, Funny

From TFA: "I think Microsoft has a PR problem. Largely deservedly, I would say."

They don't need good PR, because they're focusing on other solutions instead.

Re:Microsoft's PR problem by holderofthering · 2004-10-17 23:49 · Score: 1

I wouldn't worry to much, have you ever seen how badly written their usual drivers are? This will all blow over.

Re:Portland? by Dunbal · 2004-10-16 16:48 · Score: 1

Are you SURRRRRE it will take them a couple months? I mean, Microsoft is REALLY big on security these days... heck, they may not even be able to do it at all :)

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Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.

Funny by Pan+T.+Hose · 2004-10-16 16:49 · Score: 1

Once again, I would like to thank the article submitter (as well as the Slashdot editor) who posted this story for giving us NO background information on who this Linus guy is. Are we all expected to instantly recognize every Joe Schmoe that has an interview posted online? Next time, a little background info would be helpful people!

That might be funny, and in fact I'm fairly sure it is, but it reminds me of people who were seriously complaining about not enough background info in my last story on Poicephalus release. Can you believe it? Also, if it was an interview with Ian Murdock we'd already have at least twenty posts saying that Ian is the "-ian" in "Debian" moderated +5, Informative. So indeed, why make exception for Linux?

--
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."

Re:Funny by el-spectre · 2004-10-16 18:52 · Score: 1

Because (and I SWEAR this isn't a slam on Debian), but only a few million people have heard of any given distro, but tens of millions or more have heard of Linux.

--
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
Re:Funny by DunbarTheInept · 2004-10-16 20:05 · Score: 1

Draw out the Venn diagrams and it is trivial to see that the set of people familiar with linux in general is a superset of the set of people familiar with just one particular distribution of linux.

--
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Re:Funny by grozzie2 · 2004-10-17 10:14 · Score: 1

only on /. would folks actually have to draw the diagrams to grasp this concept.

Important to note by Pan+T.+Hose · 2004-10-16 16:57 · Score: 0

If that was an interview with Ian Murdock we'd already have at least twenty posts saying that Ian is the "ian" in "Debian," all moderated as +5, Informative. Why make an exception for Linus? So let me say it:

It is important to note, yet it is not clearly stated in the article, that Linus is actually what "Linu" in "Linux" stand for! Did anyone know it? (+5, Informative--thankyouverymuch)

--
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."

Re:Ob. comment by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 17:01 · Score: 4, Funny

source to backup claim?

#!/bin/sh echo "there are indeed 2 million folks developing for linux"

there you go. i.. umm.. developed that source, so make it 2000001 folks.

in other news... by Inspector+Lopez · 2004-10-16 17:17 · Score: 4, Funny

Linus has moved to Portland, OR, which is a fine thing, and as others have noted, that puts him amusingly close to Redmond, WA.

I believe that this may provide a possible explanation for the recent eruption of a volcano (Mt. St. Helens) fairly close to the midpoint between Bill and Linus.

Re:in other news... by DunbarTheInept · 2004-10-16 20:30 · Score: 1

1 - Portland and Redmond are not very close to each other at all, by east-coast standards. They only seem close in our minds because there aren't intervening urban areas.

2 - Mt St Helens is not midway between them. It's much closer to Portland.

--
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

Some background by Pan+T.+Hose · 2004-10-16 17:25 · Score: 5, Funny

Once again, I would like to thank the article submitter (as well as the Slashdot editor) who posted this story for giving us NO background information on who this Linus guy is.

You're right. Let me write some basic info about Linus:

Linus Torvalds (born December 28, 1969) began the development of Linux, an operating system kernel, and today acts as the project coordinator. Inspired by the teaching system Minix (developed by Andrew Tanenbaum), he felt the need for a capable UNIX operating system that he could run on his home PC. Torvalds did the original development of the Linux kernel primarily in his own time and on his equipment. Torvalds was born in Helsinki, the capital of Finland, as the son of Nils and Anna Torvalds. Both of his parents were campus radicals at the University of Helsinki in the 1960s, his father a Communist who in the mid-1970s spent a year studying in Moscow. This caused embarrassment to Linus at the time since other children would tease him about his father's politics. His family belongs to the Swedish-speaking minority (roughly 6% of Finland's population). Torvalds was named after Linus Pauling. He attended the University of Helsinki from 1988 to 1996, graduating with a masters degree in computer science. Torvalds lived for many years in San Jose, California with his wife Tove (six-time Finnish national Karate champion), whom he first met in fall 1993, his cat Randi (short for Mithrandir, the Elvish name for Gandalf, a wizard in The Lord of the Rings), and his three daughters Patricia Miranda (born December 5, 1996), Daniela Yolanda (born April 16, 1998) and Celeste Amanda (born November 20, 2000). In June 2004, Linus purchased a home in Beaverton, Oregon and enrolled his children in school in that area. He worked for Transmeta Corporation from February 1997 until June 2003, and is now seconded to the Open Source Development Labs, a Beaverton, Oregon based software consortium. Linus and his family recently moved to Portland, Oregon in an effort to be closer to his employer. His personal mascot is a penguin nicknamed Tux, widely adopted by the Linux community as the mascot of Linux. Linus's law, a tenet inspired by Linus and coined by Eric S. Raymond in his paper The Cathedral and the Bazaar, is: "Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow." A deep bug is one which is hard to find, and with many people looking for it, the hope (and so far most experience) is that no bug will be deep. Both men share an open source philosophy, which has been in part (and implicitly) based on this belief. Linus Torvalds Unlike many open source "evangelists", Torvalds keeps a low profile and generally refuses to comment on competing software products, such as Microsoft's commercially dominant Windows operating system. He is neutral enough to even have been criticized by the GNU project, specifically for having worked on proprietary software with Transmeta and for his use and alleged advocacy of Bitkeeper. Nevertheless, Torvalds has occasionally reacted with strong statements to what has been widely perceived as anti-Linux (and anti open source) FUD from proprietary software vendors like Microsoft or SCO. For example, in one e-mail reaction to statements by Microsoft Senior-VP Craig Mundie, who criticized open source software for being non innovative and destructive to intellectual property, Torvalds wrote: "I wonder if Mundie has ever heard of Sir Isaac Newton? He's not only famous for having set the foundations for classical mechanics (and the original theory of gravitation, which is what most people remember, along with the apple tree story), but he is also famous for how he acknowledged the achievement: If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants ... I'd rather listen to Newton than to Mundie. He may have been dead for almost three hundred years, but despit

--
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."

Re:Some background by resiak · 2004-10-16 23:45 · Score: 2, Informative

...but [Isaac Newton] is also famous for how he acknowledged the achievement: If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants...

I always find it amusing when people use this particular Newton quote in this context. See, at the time that he said this, Robert Hooke (yes, as in the law) was alleging that Newton had stolen his work and ideas. Newton's response was the sentence above. Hooke was a very small man, you see...

(about halfway through the optics paragraph)

For whom it may concern: by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 17:39 · Score: 1, Insightful

http://www.paul.sladen.org/pronunciation/

Me and My, is to You and Yours by tentimestwenty · 2004-10-16 17:39 · Score: 2, Interesting

The American dream might not explicitly be about people other than you and your children having a better future but it doesn't take much to see that to have a better future yourself, you have to make sure that everyone has the same chance as you. Otherwise, the dream would just lead to class war, and destruction of society and the environment... oh wait... Well, something to think about.

Re:Ob. comment by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 17:42 · Score: 0

I'd have to say NetBSD still runs on more platforms than Linux...

Give-aways by delco · 2004-10-16 17:44 · Score: 3, Funny

...Linux on cellphones or refrigerators, just because it's so not what I envisioned it. Or on supercomputers.

I've heard that when celebrities mention they like things like Pepsi or Nike during TV interviews, they receive huge amounts of products from the manufacturers as a sort of thanks for the unsolicited and valuable publicity.

Gunning for a new toy Linus?

Re:Give-aways by node+3 · 2004-10-16 19:52 · Score: 3, Funny

Gunning for a new toy Linus?

Yeah, I see your point. He must be looking for kickbacks from Cellphones, Inc., Refrigerators Corps, and Supercomputers Ltd.
Re:Give-aways by thegnu · 2004-10-17 05:24 · Score: 1

He certainly mentions Microsoft a lot. And SCO. Hmmm.....

HMMMM....

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Please stop stalking me, bro.

The first $ contribution to Linux from Portland by Baldrson · 2004-10-16 17:49 · Score: 3, Informative

Actually the first monetary contribution ever sent to Linus for Linux was from a guy who now lives near Portland and /. carried an article he wrote recently: The Jobs Crunch.

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Seastead this.

Re:The first $ contribution to Linux from Portland by randall_burns · 2004-10-18 12:11 · Score: 1

The full story here. I sent Linus a $200 check for beer money about the time of the 386 port(I'm honestly not sure if he ever cashed the check-he didn't remember it when I asked once). I can't swear it was the first money sent-but it was sure sent early on. I was working at Sun at the time and felt that was the best contribution I could make. I was director of tiny non-profit organization which also made a small donation to the Wine Project--which clearly did register.
Re:The first $ contribution to Linux from Portland by randall_burns · 2004-10-18 12:24 · Score: 1

The donation to the Wine Project above was from Syntropy Institute-which was the small non-profit of which I was the director.

Sadly, no. by sfled · 2004-10-16 18:22 · Score: 3, Insightful

I found the [Microsoft] "Getthe facts" [marketing] campaign pretty amusing, myself. I think people can make up their own minds about the facts.

This is a mistake that the talented and intelligent often make. Many people cannot make up their own minds about the facts. It's a bell-curve distribution; at one end are the people who have the intelligence and character to weigh the facts and cut through the bullshit, at the other are the ones who believe the MacDonalds healthy fast-food ads.

Of course, I could be wrong. I frequently am.

--
I'm not really a web designer, I just play one on the Internet.

Re:Sadly, no. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 19:06 · Score: 0

I don't completely agree with you, but I modded you interesting anyway, because I believe there is a worthy discussion here. I wish I didn't have to post as AC, but obviously I can't post and mod at the same time.

Anyway, let me respond to your comment. I think the situation requires a bit more than a bell curve to explain. People are not so one dimensional as you think. They have *reasons* for thinking and believeing as they do. In my experience, those reasons have ranged from

1]having alternative agendas or goals which a less-than-correct perspective better serves

to

2]being smart in most concerns, but just too lazy to investigate or care about the facts in one particular case.

I supose when push comes to shove, I am more in agreement with you than otherwise. But I want to stress the point that I don't think it is a matter of having the intellectual capacity to grasp the issues. Rather it is a choice for individuals to be informed and responsible when forming judgements or making decisions. In that respect, it is like voting. (someone shoot me before I'm completely sucked into this whole presidental campaign mentality.)
Re:Sadly, no. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 19:38 · Score: 0

Thanks for the mod. It is better than I deserve.

You're right, of course. Bell curves are an over-simplification.

some time between 95-97 I got the best bitch slap by adaminnj · 2004-10-16 18:25 · Score: 5, Interesting

I can't remember exactly but some time between 95 and 97 I was installing Linux and I was a true newbie to *nix back then. I had some major prob with the install and I wrought Linus a rather scathing Email. A few weeks later I got the best bitch slap of my life.

I wish I saved that Email is was so elegant and worded so perfectly that I became a Linux / Linus Zealot (it was not a nice responce from Linus).

This interview just reminds me that I need to be more Linus like in my day to day life (I'm a bit hot tempered) and really think when I talk, or act Email, or post to /..

--
I'd Tell you all my secrets but I lie about my past

Re:Ob. comment by MP3Chuck · 2004-10-16 18:35 · Score: 1

I meant Linux as a platform rather than the kernel itself...

--
Who doesn't like free music?

Re:Ob. comment by el-spectre · 2004-10-16 18:48 · Score: 4, Informative

Correction: He created an implementation of an existing standard, which already had several other implementations, and took it to a new architecture, improved it (with lots of others), expanding it's abilities and hardware support.

"merely" indeed, troll.

--
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.

Re:Ob. comment by killjoe · 2004-10-16 18:58 · Score: 1

Since when is "ready for widespread adoption on desktop systems" the measure of an operating system?

BTW it is ready for the desktop. You are confusing your hatred of open office and unwillingness of vendors to write device drivers with linux itself.

--
evil is as evil does

MOD PARENT UP by ArbitraryConstant · 2004-10-16 19:20 · Score: 1

Not only are you an (apparently) GPL supporter that correctly characterizes the BSD crowd, but I like your signature.

--
I rarely criticize things I don't care about.

Re:MOD PARENT UP by GreyWolf3000 · 2004-10-17 05:03 · Score: 1

That's the first good response this .sig has gotten, in about 6 months of having it.
Just between you and me, I'm starting work on a package manager in perl...I've gotten it to parse specfiles already.

What it does is build the package with every possible dependency and build flag configuration, and store the differences between each build. This will result in potentially larger packages (if the packager chooses to include every option in the specfile), but it will create fully portable binary packages so that the end user can have dependency control with a tool like apt!

I'll post a journal entry when I'm ready to go sourceforge.

--
Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
Re:MOD PARENT UP by ArbitraryConstant · 2004-10-17 05:51 · Score: 1

I had major problems with Gentoo solely as a result of insufficient testing (eg, stuff that would have been caught if anyone had tried it before releasing it). My sig before this one was actually "I know I sound like I might like Gentoo. I didn't. Please don't suggest it.".

Unfortunately, that was more of a lightning rod for Gentoo zealots who took it upon themselves to convince me that my experience wasn't bad. That doesn't make much sense to me, but they did it consistently. As if there was one little thing I missed that would have made my experience perfect.

It turns out the Gentoo zealots love the speed and adaptability so much that they don't even notice the stuff that bugs the rest of us, so they think we're wrong when we have criticisms.

--
I rarely criticize things I don't care about.
Re:MOD PARENT UP by GreyWolf3000 · 2004-10-17 06:28 · Score: 1

I can see you've had more first hand experience with Gentoo zealots--I'm sorry :)
I personally use Crux, which basically amounts to me writing my own packages for most of the stuff I use that isn't common, and me modifying the packages in the ports to for most of the stuff that is common.

Hence, I pretty much do most of the testing, so that aspect doesn't bother me, but I certainly can understand how it would bother someone else, especially if the people that ought to be helping are trying to convince you there isn't even a problem.

--
Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
Re:MOD PARENT UP by ArbitraryConstant · 2004-10-17 13:49 · Score: 1

"I certainly can understand how it would bother someone else, especially if the people that ought to be helping are trying to convince you there isn't even a problem."

Yeah. It's not that I'm incapable of getting something working, it's just that I don't see why I should spend my sunday afternoon figuring why something suddenly doesn't work. Overtime pay when fixing my own computer is not great.

I prefer (not as a plug, just statement of fact) OpenBSD for server stuff and Suse Linux for desktop stuff. Both have significant weaknesses, but they DO WHAT THEY'RE TOLD.

--
I rarely criticize things I don't care about.

Re:Ob. comment by polecat_redux · 2004-10-16 19:23 · Score: 1

"merely" indeed, troll.

No troll. My point was that his contribution to Linux (aside from having conceived of it) seems largely overrated.

"If I have seen further it is by standing on ye shoulders of Giants." --Isaac Newton

Linux as it is today is a culmination of the talents of many people in addition to Linus - both before and after he got involved.

Re:Ob. comment by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 19:32 · Score: 0

"still not ready for widespread adoption on desktop systems "

its ready for widespread adoption ( millions of user per distribution is proof of that MORON ) and is already more advanced and as more software by default then the current OS who happend to be forced upon you on the X86 architecture.

Who Linus is by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · 2004-10-16 19:39 · Score: 1

Don't you know that he's Lucy van Pelt's brother?
Linus is most recently from Finland, where he moved when Charles Schulz outsourced production of Peanuts cartoons.
Linus is famous for highly secure products, notably a blanket. He's also known for contributing the "Pumpkin" patch to the Linux kernel, which everyone agreed was the most sincere patch.

Re:some time between 95-97 I got the best bitch sl by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 19:52 · Score: 1, Funny

I need to be more Linus like in my day to day life

Except for exercise. Get more exercise. Especially if you're going to take your shirt off at Linux meets like the one in SA. Thanks.

What if... by ed1park · 2004-10-16 19:52 · Score: 1, Interesting

Linus died? What would happen to kernel development? Who would take over? Has this ever been considered?

Re:What if... by CAIMLAS · 2004-10-16 20:25 · Score: 2, Insightful

That's something I've thought as well.

I think it would certainly stagnate. Linus is, in quite a few ways, the largest driving force: philosophically, technically, organizationally, nice-person-figurehead....ly, etc. :) Who would replace him? I can't seem to think of anyone that would fit all those roles nearly as well as he does.

I'd say that, by far, his strongest point is his ability to colaborate with thousands upon thousands of people, balance personalities and egos that are typically more excentric than your average geek (let alone average person), and still manage to piss off a minimal number of people, all while cultivating a thriving heirarchy of kernel development culture. It's utterly amazing, and blows my mind utterly and completely. Very few people on earth, if anyone else, could do such a thing and have a coherrent piece of software at the end of the day.

--
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Re:What if... by Soko · 2004-10-16 21:09 · Score: 4, Interesting

The success of Linux has a lot to do with Linus Torvalds absolute lack of pride, except when it came to the code in his kernel tree. No pride, except where others have - by thier own opinions and devices - granted him authority.

Linus has never attempted to exert authority over anything related to Linux except the code tree that he maintains. Dammit, he is even willing to listen to others when it comes to that.

IOW, he has lead by example, never by coersion or force. He has made tough choices (the VM wars is an example) and recanted when necessary. He has settled flame wars, turned his back on very powerful alies (namely, IB-fucking-M, in the aforementioned VM wars), and still had the humilty to change his mind - when presented compelling evidence why he should change his mind - and continue on like he was right all along to listen to others.

That suspiciously smakcs of democracy. That, IMVHO, is someone to look up to.

I pray that God continues to be with him.

Soko

--
"Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
Re:What if... by KarmaMB84 · 2004-10-17 03:11 · Score: 1

I believe Emperor Torvald's apprentice Darth Cox would take over. Darth Cox would also take on an apprentice of his own to instruct in the ways of the Open side of the Source.

Re:Ob. comment by polecat_redux · 2004-10-16 20:06 · Score: 1

its ready for widespread adoption

And what better proof of that than actual widespread adoption... oh wait.

The fact of the matter is that the FOSS versions of core software available for Windows (or Mac) systems are simply not up to par. The Gimp comes somewhat *close* IMO to Photoshop, but aside from perhaps Open Office, there are very few applications that are anywhere close to being as mature as their Windows equivalents (personal finance software for example). Until Linux has the support of quality, intuitive, and inexpensive software, it is never going to stand a chance with the average desktop user.

Re:Ob. comment by DunbarTheInept · 2004-10-16 20:10 · Score: 1

You set the bar quite hign, it seems, on what it takes for something to be "amazing". Some college kid writing an OS kernel (even if it was a functional clone of something that had been done before) that ends up being embraced and expanded by such a large group of volunteers and becoming a system that even works *at all* is already pretty amazing right there. Even if Linux had stopped where it was over 13 years ago, at just being a lackluster text-console system, that by itself would still have been a prettty amazing thing.

--

Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

Re:Too rainy for Linus' convertible in Portland? by Boronx · 2004-10-16 20:13 · Score: 1

In the summer, it's actually pretty dry here.

Silence, fool! All NW moderaters, mod parent down.

--
Play Command HQ online

*sigh* by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 20:14 · Score: 0

Am I the only one who tires of these orgasm-infested Linus lovefests that Slashdot loves to post now and then? Watching a bunch of posters go ga-ga over "new Linux quotes" is rather off-putting.

Just saying. I doubt the guy would feel comfortable with so much obsessive ass-kissing. It's not like he's a demigod; he started an OSS project that a lot of people ended up contributing to. Some people act like Linus is the one person responsible for 100% of the Linux kernel, which denies the contributions from everyone else besides Linus who has really made it what it is today.

Wow, good job for american propoganda machine by iamacat · 2004-10-16 20:17 · Score: 3, Informative

Communism is simply when everyone has access to resources that most people need to be happy - food, cloth, medicine, a place to live and so on. Imagine people getting a middle class salary as "welfare" if they don't otherwise make it. Obviously, in this case people must have some motivation to work other than the threat of poverty - for example sense of achivement, desire to improve life of other people and so on. Or with enough automatic production, perhaps most people don't have to work and the few jobs needed are filled by those eager to use their talent.

This has never worked out and perhaps can not given the greedy and lazy human nature. Nevertheless, get your facts straight. Communism doesn't preclude variety of choices and you can make improvements or changes. You will just probably choose to give them away, because you don't need to make extra money in order to get what you want from life.

Re:Wow, good job for american propoganda machine by ignorant_newbie · 2004-10-16 23:57 · Score: 1

>Communism is simply when everyone has access to
>resources that most people need to be happy
>food, cloth, medicine, a place to live and so on

bzzzt! wrong. that's socialism. In practice, communism is when you have to buy the stuff you need ( clothes, toilet paper, food ) on the black market, at highly inflated priced.

I have a good friend who grew up in east germany, and who had to join the swim team just to get a hot shower every day. ( they didn't always have running water at home ) does that sound like she got 'everything that most people need to be happy' ?

pls don't assume that the things you read on ./ or in a book have any bearing on how the world actually functions.

--
Sitting Walrus Blog
Re:Wow, good job for american propoganda machine by johansalk · 2004-10-17 00:53 · Score: 2, Interesting

"Communism", the way you define it, where everyone has equal right of access to essential resources that meet their basic needs, such as food, shelter, healthcare, and so on, is working extremely well in Scandanavia. Look at the Scandanavians, for the most part they're healthy, happy, very prosperous and peaceful nations. The quality of living there is probably the highest in the world. Linus comes from Finland, the first nation whose economy was declared relatively more internationally competitive than the USA after very many years of the US topping the list. If you're an american you probably only know of communism as stalinism, where you assasinate all your opposition and a few notable economists too. Your view of communism was probably formulated by the public speeches of Nixon, Kessinger and Reagan. Linus knows better; he lived under propserous socialims.
Re:Wow, good job for american propoganda machine by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 01:35 · Score: 0

If this prosperous socialism was so great, why did he leave?
Re:Wow, good job for american propoganda machine by ThJ · 2004-10-17 02:07 · Score: 3, Interesting

I'm from Norway. He probably left because he wanted to see America. I mean, we get pumped with americanisms all the time over here, so after hearing about America all your life, you kind of want to see it sometime. Include the fact that none of the Scandinavian countries have a population of more than about 8 million (i.e. Sweden). Norway has 5 million. Iceland has a few hundred thousand citizens. There isn't much big industry going on, and there aren't too many software houses either. Everything works on a smaller scale. The biggest city in Norway is Oslo, our capitol, with 800 000 citizens. I think maybe Linus likes to be where he's needed the most, and with Americas rather large IT industry, many probably want him nearby there. I envy Finland because of Nokia and Sweden because of Ericsson. Norway barely has an electronics industry. We're kind of dull. We invented the GSM system and then sold it. I wish people in Norway would be more interested in innovation.
Re:Wow, good job for american propoganda machine by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 03:32 · Score: 0

He probably left because he wanted to see America.

Yeah, maybe, but probably mostly because someone offered him a job doing cool stuff, and he thought "that sounds like fun"...
Re:Wow, good job for american propoganda machine by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 03:43 · Score: 1, Insightful

In practice, communism is when you have to buy the stuff you need ( clothes, toilet paper, food ) on the black market, at highly inflated priced.

In practice, maybe. That's really communism's largest flaw - an egalitarian collectivist system is doomed to break down if you reserve all the treats for party apparatchics and favourites. In practice, you throw out one class system, and introduce another one.

Some of the western poor may well resent the rich, but at least the rich don't go swanning around in luxury saying "Everyone is equal". They know full well that, in practice, people with lots of cash have more power, more influence and more rights than people without any.
Re:Wow, good job for american propoganda machine by pomakis · 2004-10-17 04:52 · Score: 1

pls don't assume that the things you read on ./ or in a book have any bearing on how the world actually functions.

So... what you're saying is... we shouldn't believe what you just said?
Re:Wow, good job for american propoganda machine by ScrewMaster · 2004-10-17 05:32 · Score: 1

Communism is simply when everyone has access to resources that most people need to be happy ...

Actually, that's socialism. Or maybe it's democracy. Or could it be republicanism? Most forms of government claim to be making their people "happy" or at least giving them what they "need". The only form of government that doesn't claim to be giving the people what they need to be happy is the totalitarian state, and while I wouldn't choose to live in such an environment at least it is honest about its aims: we're going to run your life and take it away if we want ... deal with it.

The big problem comes in when you try to define what it takes to make everyone "happy." Put it this way: what I need to make me "happy", and what is required to make the average citizen of, say, England, France, Germany, Nigeria, China, or India, or Pakistan, or Russia, or any other country "happy" is different. Now, if you truncate "need to be happy" with simply "need", you're getting closer to what socialism and true Communism were trying to achieve, but what you find there is that "need" generally translates to "subsistence level". The real question there is: who gets to define what the rest of us need? And who gets to decide what they need? Tough questions. A lot of what's in the United States Constitution deals with this at some level.

Communism is an idealized state of human existence, one in which everyone works for the good of all, where little government or control is required because everyone knows and accepts their place. Goes pretty much against the grain, so far as human nature is concerned: perhaps if Mankind were descended from hive-building insects instead of a bunch of crabby tree-swingers it would have been different. Marx wasn't a stupid man, but his theories about economic and governmental systems pretty much ignored everything that makes us (all of us) what we are. The tide of history was against Karl from the beginning. Human beings are not ants.

Historically, neither true Communism nor Democracy have ever actually been tried on any significant scale. The United States was defined as a republic by the Founders, not a democracy (apparently even our current President and his staff don't know the difference) and likewise the Soviet Empire was known as a "Communist" state but in reality was another example of totalitarianism at work.

--
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Re:Wow, good job for american propoganda machine by ScrewMaster · 2004-10-17 05:35 · Score: 1

Yes, and more importantly (and fortunately as far as I'm concerned) ... he stayed.

--
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Re:Wow, good job for american propoganda machine by iamacat · 2004-10-17 05:36 · Score: 1

How about those outsourced factory workers in capitalist India - think they get nice 8 hour days, air conditioning and modern living? Uhm.. If you are middle class in the world's richest country, you can't assume that's how things are working out for everyone.

I grew up in "Soviet Russia" and it was screwed. Personally I am far better off in US. But I see a lot of homeless, people forced to work two jobs to provide for their family, programmers who are never allowed to take vacations... There is lots of room for improvement, and yes a big part of it is spending more tax money on social benefits rather than military, war on drugs, bailing out bankrupt companies...
Re:Wow, good job for american propoganda machine by ScrewMaster · 2004-10-17 05:57 · Score: 1

I find your comment somewhat bizarre. In other words, you're comparing the Soviet Empire, at one time the most powerful nuclear-capable totalitarian state in history, with Scandinavia? Get your forms of government straight: if I were Scandinavian I'd be pretty damn insulted. Totalitarianism (as practiced by the decidedly non-Communist Russia) and relatively benign socialisms such as England, Canada or Scandinavia are just not in the same category.

As an American, my view of Communism came from reading some of Marx's works (among others) in order to understand what that form of government was intended to be, and it didn't take me long to realize that "Communist Russia" never was and was never meant to be Communist. It was just another totalitarian state ... period, end of statement. Yes, I know, it's probably hard for you to accept but there are some American citizens that still read books.

And the reality of the matter is that Russia ("Communist" or not) has had a history of ruthlessness in handling its internal affairs, even in the post-Stalin world.

--
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Re:Wow, good job for american propoganda machine by johansalk · 2004-10-17 11:44 · Score: 1

Well, you may read but apparently you don't seem to read well enough. Read my post again and see what i said; I put "communism" in quotes and then elaborated on it by saying as he - parent post - described it, because he actually described socialism. Note that I ended my post with the word socialism, prosperous socialism, not communism.

What is very amusing and comical is that you're attacking my viewpoint and yet then saying almost exactly what I'm saying in my post.

Learn to read well, mistuh!
Re:Wow, good job for american propoganda machine by salvorHardin · 2004-10-17 20:05 · Score: 1

The only form of government that doesn't claim to be giving the people what they need to be happy is the totalitarian state, and while I wouldn't choose to live in such an environment at least it is honest about its aims
Not long until you emigrate, then?

"The power of the executive to cast a man in prison without formulating any charge known to the law and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers is in the highest degree odious and is the foundation of all totalitarian government, whether Nazi or Communist."- Winston Churchill
.oO(Think: Guantanamo)
Re:Wow, good job for american propoganda machine by redtux1 · 2004-10-20 23:11 · Score: 1

apt user_id

1.The definition is correct.
2. Nothing in the old stalinist block could be reasonably called communist - just because something calls themselves a thing does not mean they are that thing (BTW Stalin executed most of the Bolsheviks after he took power).
Re:Wow, good job for american propoganda machine by redtux1 · 2004-10-20 23:13 · Score: 1

Some of the western poor may well resent the rich, but at least the rich don't go swanning around in luxury saying "Everyone is equal". They know full well that, in practice, people with lots of cash have more power, more influence and more rights than people without any.

no they just claim that everyone could be rich they only worked that bit harder

Same difference
Re:Wow, good job for american propoganda machine by redtux1 · 2004-10-21 01:06 · Score: 1

Communism is an idealized state of human existence, one in which everyone works for the good of all, where little government or control is required because everyone knows and accepts their place. Goes pretty much against the grain, so far as human nature is concerned: perhaps if Mankind were descended from hive-building insects instead of a bunch of crabby tree-swingers it would have been different. Marx wasn't a stupid man, but his theories about economic and governmental systems pretty much ignored everything that makes us (all of us) what we are. The tide of history was against Karl from the beginning. Human beings are not ants.

total misreading of marx I'm afraid.

The reverse is actually true, Marx never made any assumptions about the innate goodness of humanity, quite the reverse (read Communist manifesto for examples)

The idea was that what people do is a reflection of how many resources are available, and when there is sufficiency (not subsistence), then Communism will be possible.

Socialsm was described as the stage needed to get there.

Historically, neither true Communism nor Democracy have ever actually been tried on any significant scale. The United States was defined as a republic by the Founders, not a democracy (apparently even our current President and his staff don't know the difference) and likewise the Soviet Empire was known as a "Communist" state but in reality was another example of totalitarianism at work.

Back at ya - capitalism in its pure form has never been successfully tried, the US is probably closest. All capitalist countries to varying degrees ameliorate the effects of "the market", eg: the welfare state in the UK, anti-trust legislation in the US.

Re:Ob. comment by el-spectre · 2004-10-16 20:46 · Score: 1

Glad it wasn't a troll. The thing is, he didn't just 'conceive of it', he took the unix standards, and made them work on a completely new system... we're talking about having to write a disk driver because he decided he wanted to save a file. Low level stuff here. And he continued to guide that implementation / improvement when it became a group effort.

For example: Werner von Braun built his machines based on the preexisting concepts of metallurgy, physics, mathematics, etc. But he still built a hell of a rocket (several, actually).

Linus isn't a case of Microsoft, who bought a finished OS and made a few changes... he built the damned thing from the ground up, alone. Pretty impressive to me.

--
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.

Interviewer doesn't get it by frdmfghtr · 2004-10-16 20:51 · Score: 1

I don't think the interviewer really did his research before the interview. The questions read like cookie-cutter, standard questions you ask the head of a company. The questions' lack of originality is quite remarkable.

I think my favorite quote was right in the beginning. "Well, the Northwest is certainly more like Finland in the sense that California is not like Finland."

--
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?

Woah there! by MarcQuadra · 2004-10-16 20:53 · Score: 4, Insightful

Hey there!

If Linux isn't ready for the desktop, how did my otherwise computer illiterate ex-girlfriend start using it for web/email/AIM/wordproc? How do people who come over my house know how to use the 'weird' machine? How is it a more pleasant desktop experience than XP for most people who try it out on a managed (read: not the 'everything installed' default system)?

Linux is ABSOLUTELY ready for the desktop, but like any new OS, you need someone who knows what they're doing to show it (and tailor it) to each individual newbie. Average folks weren't BORN with the Windows way of doing things already in their heads. The lack of Linux on the desktop is the result of several factors:

1. Not large enough expert userbase to provide 'neighborhood support'.
2. No marketing to the home market.
3. Total disregard/denial of desktop viability by admins and managers afraid of an OS that isn't their current bread-and-butter.
4. People like you.

In any case, Linus is as responsible for Linux GUI usability as You or I, that being 'not at all'. You can't blame a kernel hacker for the faults of the designers of the windowing environment, toolkits, and desktops.

--
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails

Re:Woah there! by leomekenkamp · 2004-10-16 23:05 · Score: 1

If Linux isn't ready for the desktop, how did my otherwise computer illiterate ex-girlfriend start using it for web/email/AIM/wordproc?

And starting to use it is the reason she is now an ex?

*ducks*

--
Wenn ist das Nunstueck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
Re:Woah there! by rpozz · 2004-10-17 00:00 · Score: 1

5. Windows is capable of performing the simple tasks most people require.

I think the main problem is simply laziness. The same reason why Internet Explorer has a much larger userbase than Firefox - while Firefox is much better, IE works /just/ enough for people not to bother upgrading.
Re:Woah there! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 02:07 · Score: 0

Linux is ABSOLUTELY ready for the desktop, but like any new OS, you need someone who knows what they're doing to show it (and tailor it) to each individual newbie.

What bullshit. You mean "Install it, configure it, maintain it and fix it when it breaks"? Because lets face it, that is the only way current Linux distributions can be used by a non-geek user.

Linux as a general purpose every day home computing platform for the general public is fucking myth. You've got to drink the Coolaid and stick your fingers in your ears to think otherwise.
Re:Woah there! by colinrichardday · 2004-10-17 03:46 · Score: 1

As opposed to keeping viruses out of a Windows computer? Windows is (usually) already installed and configured, and often maintained and fixed by third-party vendors such as Symantec and McAfee.
Re:Woah there! by MarcQuadra · 2004-10-17 04:15 · Score: 1

What I'm saying is that if I spent the same amount of time training/tailoring home users for Linux as I did training and tailoring their Windows boxes, there'd be a lot more Linux users out there. The only reason I don't get to is that they've all 'heard that it's a few years from being ready'.

Almost every one of my clients has had to have expensive service done due to the 'default configuration' of Windows boxes. They learn quick to call me up when they get a new PC so I can protect them from themselves. If I did the same but loaded Linux, they'd be just as happy (if not more).

--
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
Re:Woah there! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 20:44 · Score: 0

No, he found slashdot. And as we all know, slashdot readers don't have girlfriends.
Re:Woah there! by ViolentGreen · 2004-10-18 01:12 · Score: 1

If Linux isn't ready for the desktop, how did my otherwise computer illiterate ex-girlfriend start using it for web/email/AIM/wordproc? How do people who come over my house know how to use the 'weird' machine? How is it a more pleasant desktop experience than XP for most people who try it out on a managed (read: not the 'everything installed' default system)?

Unless she installed it, configured a late model ATI card, and maintains it then the point is moot. Anyone can sit down in front of a GUI and get somthing done. That's not the entire criteria for being ready for the desktop.

--
Not everything is analogous to cars. Car analogies rarely work.
Re:Woah there! by MarcQuadra · 2004-10-18 04:21 · Score: 1

She couldn't install Windows either. And for the record, Mandrake is just as easy, if not easier to install as Windows XP. And the default mandrake install won't get owned in fifteen seconds on the 'net like the Windows install will.

The only real 'desktop ready' OS for the the average person is really OS X, which seems to work even for users who are scared of computers. If you think Windows is 'desktop ready' you haven't paid your dues working helpdesk long enough.

All computing should be managed though, by yourself, a neighborhood geek-for-hire, or a company. I know a LOT of folks who would pay a modest subscription fee to have someone manage their PC remotely and guarantee that software was properly installed, hard drives were healthy and backed-up, and viruses and spyware prevented. Hell, I've got home users who let me lock them out of their own machines (they are 'restricted users'), when they want to install an app they put the CD in, call me up and I do it over VNC.

--
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails

um, metamods? by foreverdisillusioned · 2004-10-16 21:11 · Score: 3, Insightful

Only on slashdot could QUOTING THE ARTICLE be deemed "offtopic."

Hidden truths! by Handyman · 2004-10-16 21:23 · Score: 1

When taken out of context this is a gem, worthy of inclusion in my fortune database:

You're an adult, and you can make your own choices. That is when you get engaged.

He isn't swedish... by ztane · 2004-10-16 21:38 · Score: 1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland-Swedish

The Karma of it all... by syylk · 2004-10-16 21:57 · Score: 5, Interesting

Linux has been named after Linus Torvalds.

Linus Torvalds has been named after Linus Carl Pauling.

Now, besides pronunciation issues (you should ask Pauling's family how they called their late wonderboy!), it's enlightening to observe:

Linus Carl Pauling (LCP) is the only man who won two Nobel prizes in two totally unrelated fields: chemistry (1954 - discoveries on chemical bond's nature) and peace (1962 - battle to ban nuclear experiments). He also won the Lenin prize and the Gandhi prize.

LCP died in San Francisco in 1994. The same year Linus released Linux 1.0.

LCP directed (since 1936) the "Gates and Crellin" labs, in Pasadena, CA. Not too distant from where Linus first went working in US (Transmeta). And the name of the labs... Ah, the irony.

LCP was born in... yep, you got that... Portland, OR, 1901. Where our kernel benevolent dictator lives right now.

Isn't Karma doing wonders? :)

Mod -5 : sycophant by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 22:17 · Score: 0

So you want to be Linuses bitch eh?

Re:Ob. comment by octal666 · 2004-10-16 22:42 · Score: 1

And one of the biggest corporations in the world sees it as competition.

I'd say that's one HELL of a hobby.

--
DON'T PANIC

Re:Ob. comment by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-16 22:55 · Score: 0

I'd have to say my cock rams your mom.

Re:Ob. comment by iyliki · 2004-10-16 23:19 · Score: 1

And one of the biggest corporations in the world sees it as competition.

Well thet's because this company has to hold their users captive to keep them from migrating. IKEA doesn't have problems with Linux...

Re:Ob. comment by Zachary+Kessin · 2004-10-16 23:27 · Score: 0, Offtopic

True many of the Gnome/KDE apps are not up to their MacOS X or Windows equivalents. I personally use a mix of OS X and linux, but they are getting better fast. 4 years ago MySQL was not really production ready and now its damn good. The thing is most complex code takes time to mature, which many of the linux apps just haven't had yet.

--
Erlang Developer and podcaster

Re:Portland by cbr0005 · 2004-10-17 00:07 · Score: 1

In Soviet Canada, your new Finnish Overlord welcomes you!

Re:Woah there! New OS?? by faragon · 2004-10-17 00:57 · Score: 1

Linux is ABSOLUTELY ready for the desktop, but like any new OS, you need someone who knows what they're doing to show it (and tailor it) to each individual newbie. Average folks weren't BORN with the Windows way of doing things already in their heads. The lack of Linux on the desktop is the result of several factors:

New OS? The 1991 to 2004 year count shows about 13 years of development, I can not see Linux development as a "new OS", but a mature one.

Linux OS is nowdays some kind of state of the art monolithic kernel, not just a newborn. Despite this, and discounting that Linux is on server market for a while, seems clear that the "new archievement" is related to the desktop frenzy... but wait, Linux it is not a desktop. From this point, may be it is possible to say that the Linux + other GNUish apps are ready to be on the top of HQ OS + desktop standards, being capable to have a hand to hand competition against other mainstream OSes.

Linux + GNUish software usually brings joy to me as a cooperative human joint effort.

Re:Too rainy for Linus' convertible in Portland? by gl4ss · 2004-10-17 01:45 · Score: 1

well.. being finnish.. most convertibles get stored away totally for winter, and it usually happens around the time you would switch winter tires if it were a non-convertible(mostly because it doesn't really make much sense to buy winter tires for a convertible.. and you'd be totally wacko to drive during winter without winter tires, not to mention a law breaker).

so, i'd except linus to buy some another car for the wintertime(also I don't his the kinda guy that would really enjoy a slippery-back-end during winter).

--
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.

Bored moderators visit stories they don't like. by Futurepower(R) · 2004-10-17 01:59 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Bored moderators visit stories in which they have no interest, because they are not allowed to moderate stories in which they comment. When was the last time you attended a meeting of a social group and didn't say anything?

It's a big challenge designing a better moderation system. Maybe everyone should be allowed to moderate every comment, all the time.

--
Government data compares Democrat and Republican economics.

Re:Woah there! New OS?? by Fade_to_Blah · 2004-10-17 02:00 · Score: 1

I dont believe he meant it in that sense. I think he was stating the Linux is a "new OS" to many people as they simply have not used it. Just how Windows/Mac OS/BSD/whatever would be new to someone that has not used it before.

I got a "new car" this week, and those car thingys have been in development for a long time;)

Damn! by hudsong · 2004-10-17 02:21 · Score: 0, Offtopic

I was pronouncing his name wrong this WHOLE DAMN TIME! FUCK!!!!!!!!

Yes, fundamental design mistakes. by argent · 2004-10-17 02:43 · Score: 2, Insightful

Some folks still think that *nix is inherently virus proof because anything a mere user runs couldn't touch the really important stuff in /bin.

No, UNIX is inherently virus-resistent because it was developed in a multiuser environment where you did things like having professors keeping exam results on the same computers that students had accounts on. You had to, it was too expensive to have separate computers for every group that might have a reason to compromise another's security. At Berkeley, it was fairly common for people to set up trojan horses in their home directory to try and trap people who visited their accounts.

The result of this is that the default behaviour of the standard applications (like word processors, browsers, the file managers) when faced with an unknown object isn't to execute it and see what happens. The few exceptions are well publicised and used as object lessons as to why you shouldn't do things that way.

Windows, on the other hand, has this model of "security zones", and once an object (file, document, web page) gets to a place where it's seen as local... in the "trusted zone"... standard Microsoft applications like IE and Outlook happily let it do anything its little heart desires. In response, Microsoft has spent the past seven years (at least) repeatedly redrawing the boundaries of this "trusted zone" in an attempt to keep bad guys from sneaking something into it.

That's one of the fundamental design mistakes that Linus is talking about. There are others, like the lack of a formal system call mechanism, or the fact that implementing strong local security is so inconvenient that it's normal and accepted for most home users to work with the equivalent of local root privilege all the time (and, yes, that really does matter in UNIX... it's some of the other design flaws in Windows that make this one relatively unimportant).

There are pathways for viruses and other malware to attack UNIX systems, but these pathways are due to bugs: fixing a buffer overflow hole in an image viewer won't change the way legitimate applications work or force the user to change the way they use the computer. Redefining the "trusted zone" in Windows does, because too many applications (including standard utilities and aministration tools shipped with the OS) depend on them... so every "fix" has a ripple effect that requires applications to use different APIs or devise workarounds, and often those workarounds end up being useful to malware authors as well.

And on top of that:

Could there be a future Linux kernel that prevents an image library exploit from modifying your .bashrc?

If you want to run your browser in a sandbox that prevents it from modifying your .bashrc, even if it's completely compromised by a buffer overflow, you can do it now. It's been possible since at least 1978 (the date on my copy of the 6th edition manual, but IIRC 6th edition dates back to 1976): if you run the browser in a chrooted environment, then the only way it can modify your .bashrc is for the guy writing the exploit to also come up with a way to break out ofthe chrooted sandbox.

So... given the security available on a 6th edition UNIX system in 1978, there are tricks that can be pulled to do that, but he'd need to be root first, so he'd have to have a third exploit to become root... from a sandbox where there's no root-owned and root-setuid executables to use to boost his privileges. It's possible there's a kernel attack that can be used, but it's much harder to devise a kernel attack on UNIX because verything has to pass through the same system call interface... you don't have separate call gates for each privileged component... so there's one interface the OS designers can depend on the attacker having to go through.

It could be done, but even with the facilities available in UNIX almost 30 years ago it was much much harder than it is now.

Today,

Total cost of 0wnz0rship. by argent · 2004-10-17 02:53 · Score: 1

Well, at least your Windows 2003 server is at LEAST 17% cheaper to exploit.

Re:Ob. comment by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 02:56 · Score: 0

Really? From what I understand, he merely started a now ~15 y/o approximate clone of a pre-existing OS that is still not ready for widespread adoption on desktop systems (despite what many would have you believe).

Yeah, nothing is amazing unless it can beat Windows on desktop. Pyramids, roman empire, differential math, pointillism, eiffel tower, moon rocket, flying cars, flux capacitor.. who cares? None of them run Office.

Not amazing? Geeze. by argent · 2004-10-17 03:05 · Score: 1

a pre-existing OS that is still not ready for widespread adoption on desktop systems

Funny, I'm running that pre-existing OS on my desktop, and it's got one of the best user interfaces and the most consistent and easiest to learn applications environment in the world.

It's not Linus' particular implementation of that operating system, no. I personally prefer the one that McKusick and co brought into the spotlight: I did some of the work on that so I'm much more familiar with it and I'm glad Apple picked it rather than Linux. But to say that what Linus did wasn't amazing is churlish and childish.

Heck, even when I think Linus is being a butthead about kernel design, and I'm telling him so, he's still one of my heroes.

Re:Ob. comment by argent · 2004-10-17 03:08 · Score: 1

That is a weakness of the open source approach to building an OS, but ultimately it will get there.

It is there. The best desktop you can buy today is running on top of an open source OS.

It's not an open source desktop, no, but as you say the GUI layer isn't the OS. :)

the best name since Galileo Galilei by sootman · 2004-10-17 03:19 · Score: 3, Funny

From TFA: "Linus Torvalds [pronounced LEE-nus]..."

1) wow. I never would've guessed that's how you say 'Torvalds'. Those wacky Finns...

2) So that makes him "LI-nus LEE-nus"?

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Re:some time between 95-97 I got the best bitch sl by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-17 04:20 · Score: 2, Funny

I tried to be more like Linus, but his wife kicked me out of Linus's house and said she'd call the cops if I came back. To hell with trying to be like Linus - I don't want to go to jail !!

EX? by tanveer1979 · 2004-10-17 04:23 · Score: 1

If Linux isn't ready for the desktop, how did my otherwise computer illiterate ex-girlfriend start using it for web/email/AIM/wordproc? Didnt you ever wonder, that maybe thats the reason she is "Ex"

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Ambiguous statement or geography error? by unborn · 2004-10-17 05:09 · Score: 1

"He discussed via e-mail his move to Portland, the state of Linux and MicHe discussed via e-mail his move to Portland, the state of Linux and Microsoft."

I had to reread this several times, until I realize that he doesn't refer to Portland as the "state" of Linux and Microsoft.

Re:Ob. comment by bgarcia · 2004-10-17 05:36 · Score: 1

Damn, God forgot to put a funny bone in that one too.

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But.. by k98sven · 2004-10-17 07:02 · Score: 1

Linus isn't Swedish in that sense, though.

Finnish swedes is an ethnic group in its own right. "Finlandssvenskar" in their own words, don't really consider themselves Swedes.
(And why should they? The first swedish settlements in Finland date back over 800 years or so ago..)

The finnish-swedish language isn't pure swedish either, the pronunciation is different, and there are a few colloquialisms and they still use some words considered archaic in swedish.

So, they consider themselves to be Finnish-swedish. It's its own identity, but still undeniably part of the Finnish identity.

Of course, the Finnish identity is itself very young (from a european standpoint). Finland was just a part of Sweden for most of the last millenium. Finland fell into Russian hands in the early 19th century, and the romantic movement of the same in combination with Russian oppression gave rise to finnish nationalism and the invention of the 'finnish identity'.
(It's noteworthy that key figures in that movement, like Runeberg and Sibelius, were swedish-finns.)

So really.. it's hard to say "Finnish, not Swedish", given that the Swedish history and influence is a part of being Finnish.

Hmm... by Andy+Dodd · 2004-10-17 14:09 · Score: 1

All-season tires?

Except in a few very specific cases, seasonal tire changes are a thing of the past for most vehicles in the U.S.

I drive my convertible year-round. Of course I don't put the top down in the winter. :)

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Portland is in Europe. by jotaeleemeese · 2004-10-17 19:01 · Score: 1

http://www.weymouth.gov.uk/

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I don't agree. by jotaeleemeese · 2004-10-17 19:08 · Score: 1

And I have lived in Europe enough years to have noticed.

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407 comments