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Ukraine Holds 4th Largest Programmer Population
andrewuoft points out this BusinessWeek article on the budding technology sector of Ukraine; the article points out that Ukraine has -- "after the U.S., India, and Russia -- the fourth largest number of computer programmers in the world" and that "Even today, scientific institutes each year churn out some 50,000 science or technology graduates. Not surprisingly, Ukrainians don't see why their country can't become a big player in the global technology market, like India."
Maybe this would explain why there seem to be so many Hot, Available Ukrainian Women looking to get out.
But I thought competition was good? That's what Slashdot told me.
New here?
With the economical globalization these days, the trend (strategy?) for some countries seem to overspecialize in one specific area (in this case, IT) to outperform competition on a worldwide scale. Risky for sure, but it seems to work right now (at least for India, who reap the profits of investing massively in IT).
Eureka Science News - automatically updated
On the other hand, it's also ANOTHER place to get experienced programmers to write open-source software like GNU/Linux...
JOBS OUTSOURCE YOU!
What the future of technology needs more than anything is the reversal of the quantity philosophy. More is not always better.
I wouldn't think that emulating India is really the way to go. The entire economic output of India is less than the state of Illinois. In addition, India's call center business is almost 100% U.S. customers. Ukraine has some, ahem, moral issues that make it politically difficult for American companies to outsource there.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
more of quantity can turn in this case into more of quality.
We as humans evolve.
A crappy car will remain a crappy car no matter how much type-r stickers you put on it but as individuals who study and gain experience, programmers may not study in anything "outstanding" in the beginning but you never know what path they will take.
In fact, Slashdot ran a recent article about the shortage of open-source expertise...
Both the submitter and the FA author seem to have misspelled "Elbonia."
It is unfortunate, but Ukraine has gained notoriety for being the base of a lot of the "east european bride" scammers. Plus, the general perceived lawlessness of the fUSSR republics is not conducive to investment. Face it: post communism, there were a lot of problems with foreign partners of Russian businessmen being bumped off and strong-armed.
Things may be different now, but a good reputation takes time to develop.
As far as India is concerned: there are many Indians in high places in tech companies in the US, and the natual tendency is for them to favor India (a known commodity, to them) for outsourcing their operations.
and the server goes down.
Building The Muscle To Be A Tech Player
Ukraine has a bunch of cornfields, a bunch of old steel mills, and not much else. Right? Well, Ukraine also has a budding technology sector, and -- after the U.S., India, and Russia -- the fourth largest number of computer programmers in the world. It was a main center of the Soviet programming industry. The first computer built in continental Europe was made in Ukraine in 1951. Even today, scientific institutes each year churn out some 50,000 science or technology graduates. Not surprisingly, Ukrainians don't see why their country can't become a big player in the global technology market, like India. "We want Ukraine to become a technological country again, not just a country with agriculture and tank production," says Yuri Sivitsky, chairman of Softline, one of Ukraine's largest software producers.
What are the chances? While Ukraine isn't likely ever to rival India, it certainly has the potential to become a player. Just look at Softline. Founded by mathematicians in 1995, it has 500 employees, up from a dozen in 1998. Revenues are set to hit $10 million this year, up 70% from 2003. Its clients include Ingersoll-Rand Co. (IR ) and Hugo Boss.
The offshore programming industry, although small, is growing fast. According to Market-Visio, a research firm in Moscow, Ukraine's software exports will grow 43% this year to $100 million. Around 10,000 programmers are employed in the industry, working for customers such as Boeing (BA ), DaimlerChrysler (DCX ), General Electric (GE ), Citibank (C ), and NASA. Much of the work is customized business software. But gaming is also growing. Kvasar-Micro, Ukraine's largest info tech company, recently landed an order to develop a computer game for mobile handsets.
Ukraine's main selling point is the quality of its mathematical education. Another is cheap labor. An average programmer in Ukraine earns $500 a month, not quite as low as India, but half the level in Moscow and a fraction of programming salaries in the West. But the edge Ukraine gets from high education and low wages is offset by other factors. Around 90% of all software on sale in Ukraine is pirated, so domestic makers can't get the revenue they need to grow. Other problems are a lack of business skills, venture finance, and government support. But things are looking up. Management skills are improving as Ukrainians gain Western experience and earn MBAs. The government is mulling tax incentives for tech investment and starting to tighten piracy laws.
Some of the biggest names in the global technology industry have started to wake up to Ukraine's potential. "Ukraine is building up quickly," says Gerard J. Kleisterlee, CEO of Dutch electronics giant Royal Philips Electronics (PHG ), which makes an array of high-tech goods there. Flextronics International Ltd. (FLEX ), a Singapore electronics powerhouse, recently set up a software design lab in Ukraine, and CEO Michael E. Marks is enthusiastic about the nation's potential as an engineering and design power. If he's right, Ukraine has a digital future.
Not surprisingly, Ukrainians don't see why their country can't become a big player in the global technology market, like India."
Because of the massive amounts of corruption at all levels of government? Organized crime bosses who refuse to let companies set up shop without bribes?
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In the former Soviet Union, the software compiled YOU!
Yes, but we say "the Piedmont" and "the Rockies" and "the Dakotahs" and "the North Slope" to name a few.
Ukrainians telling us how to speak English is just another example of the hyper-sensitive Eastern European inferiority complex.
So is Elbonia 3rd or 5th?
I'm a quarter Ukranian!
The infrastructure is important: not only the physical infrastructure like roads, trains and powerlines, but also the governmental infrastructure (like courts, government offices, etc.). Plus, a stable government (not a one-man show like in many other places) is necessary: money flees uncertainty.
While generally your comment makes sense, I take issue with the last statement. Money doesn't flee uncertainty. It would be far more correct to say it flees the certainty of unprofitability and the certainty of unstable infrastructure and government and an arbitrary court system, like in Indonesia for example. Investment pours into uncertain economies like Russia after the end of the Cold War because they promise change, and change is the essence of growth.
the next Doom3/HL2/Far Cry killer that THQ will publish next year, STALKER: SHadow of Chernobyl is developed by a Ukrainian company called GSC gameworld. They also developed Firestarter if you played it :)
just my 2 bytes
It doesnt matter, the red already knocked the blue off the West, now all they have to do is moblize.
and like every crappy risk player they are going to spend all their armies taking over stuff they cant hold.
my sig
Loose. Damn loose. Hungarian loose. No wonder why they wanna get the hell out of there. :D
(People Against Akward Car Analogies)
What the fuck do cars, human evolution, and type R stickers have to do with the price of eggs in russia?! Not everything is analogous to a car. Give it up!
but I thought that they program in ukrainian... :">
India is among the quite corrupt contries, like number 90 of 146 in the Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index 2004 http://www.transparency.org/cpi/2004/cpi2004.en.ht ml#cpi2004
So corruption it itself does not seem to be able to stop tech-business, though Ukraine is way lower at #122.
dont underestimate about the upcoming rivals like ireland and china. who can offer cheap outsourcing than india. but i guess software-outsourcing industry will take 2-3 years more to mature well... and to decide where to put money.
Let's terminate outsourcing to India and China. Both of these hellholes reject Western culture. Let's terminate the H-1B program.
Any outsourcing that would have gone to India should now go to the Ukraine and Eastern Europe.
In the case of "the Dakotahs", it is correct to use this reference, since the Dakotas refers to both North and South Dakota. this term "the Dakotas" originates from when the location was a territory known as the Dakota Territory. The name of Dakota Territory came from the large group of Dakota, Lakota, and Nakota Indians from the region. The term "the Dakotas" is fairly accurate, since the general layout, topography, and climate is fairly similar between the two states.
By the way, South Dakota is a big tourist location for a reason, the geography has much to offer, from the rolling planes, to the Badlands (desert), to the Black Hills. (Also of note: The Black Hills hold significant religious value to the Dakota Native Americans.)
more info here: Wikipedia on the term Dakotas
"but money is the God of Algiers & Mahomet their prophet." - Rich. O'Bryen June 8th 1786
"Ha ha, the Ukraine. Do you know what the Ukraine is? It's a sitting duck. A road apple, Newman. The Ukraine is weak. It's feeble. I think it's time to put the hurt on the Ukraine."
[Kramer and Newman are playing Risk...] Newman: I'm not beaten yet. I still have armies in the Ukraine. Kramer: Ha ha, the Ukraine. Do you know what the Ukraine is? It's a sitting duck. A road apple, Newman. The Ukraine is weak. It's feeble. I think it's time to put the hurt on the Ukraine. Ukrainian: I come from Ukraine. You not say Ukraine weak. Kramer: Yeah, well we're playing a game here, pal. Ukrainian: Ukraine is game to you?! Howbout I take your little board and smash it!! The Ukrainian pounds the game board, destroying it and sending army pieces flying.
Wellsir,
The underlying cause of this statistic can be resolved by employing the following simple thought experiment:
Well, what the fuck else are you going to do in fucking Ukraine?
The US certainly has the military power to take over a lot of countries, but it hasn't done it. Sure, the US invades countries from time to time when there's a perceived threat, or to stop genocide, or to prevent civil war, etc. But in the end, the US never "takes" anything even though it could. The last thing the US took was Kingman Reef in 1922. There wasn't a war over it. It's an unpopulated 1 sq km land mass in the Pacific Ocean. Most of it is under water.
Wow. I really expected Germany to be on that list at least. After all, we do hear about most virus writers coming from this country, as well as the hackers they have.
"Instant gratification takes too long." - Carrie Fisher
They hold the third largest population of phishers scammers and hackers.
Ukrainian programmers won't be the first to land fat outsourcing contracts: they are as mob-ridden as Russia and better known for This kind of programmer than India is.
SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
Ukrainians don't see why their country can't become a big player in the global technology market, like India."
Because "programming" isn't the key factor in whether your nation is a "big player" in the global technology market. It is a factor, but it's a ways down the list.
For those reading the table, realize that the lower the rank, the higher the corruption. The score is on a scale of 1 to 10, with countries leaning towards 10 being the least corrupt. Nigeria, with a rank of 144, is one of the most corrupt. Finland, with a rank of 1, is the least corrupt of all according to this data.
In regards to the topic at hand, the Ukraine is a very criminally influenced country. I have a number of contacts in the Ukraine and they're all trying to get out before they drown in the country's corruption. One reason Russian/Ukranian/other Eastern European women are willing to do the "mail order bride" thing is to get out of their respective countries and go somewhere with less criminal activity. A would-be bride said that a rich, successful husband in Russia or the Ukraine doesn't last very long, so she'd rather marry someone stable from the US and live there. It's sad, but it's no different people from Mexico hopping the US-Mexican border to the US for a better life.
Last winter I've got an idea of trying a software competition to develop a video streamer for the network cameras developed by Elphel (both software and hardware are GPL'ed). I decided to try Russian software developers (I'm Russian myself) so I wrote an article in a Russian online magazine "Computerra" and offered a $3000 prize for the best streamer to use with the camera (the code was to retain author's copyright and be released under GNU/GPL). I did not expect many participants and thought I'l sacrifice 3 cameras. But it turned different and I've sent out 9 of them - 4 to Russia, 3 - to Ukraine, 1 - to Germany and 1 to India (the article was in Russian - that restricted participants to Russian-reading).
Of those 9 participants 6 reached the finish line and the winner is Ukrainian Alexander Melichenko. What amazed me was that I've got the first version of his steamer in just a couple weeks after the announcement _before_ he received the hardware! Hi used my online camera to download his application over the Internet and made it working. And the camera uses Axis ETRAX100LX CPU - something he never programmed before.
All that software is now on our Sourceforge project page - https://sourceforge.net/projects/elphel.
ukraine is not weak, ukraine is strong
Was the percentage inverted when they were part of Soviet Russia?
Should we seriously believe that The Ukraine has more computer programmer productivity and output than:
China - 1.3 billion people and a booming economy with millions of students studying technology?
Korea - where 1/4 of the people have at-home broadband, and like China, has millions of people working in the technology industry?
Taiwan - where nearly everything technological that isn't specifically designed to kill people who don't shop at the Baby Gap is designed, programmed, and manufactured?
Japan - With the world's second largest economy and a world leader in electronic R&D and embedded-systems computers?
I think some second-rate journalist got an all-expenses-paid government tour and spent a lot of time with Hot, Available Ukrainian Brides-to-be
and then wrote up this wild fantasy of Ukrainian computer mastery in order to get invited back on next year's government tour.
We must not take these snow-jobs seriously.
I've just gotten done reading the initial reaction of trolls and jokes about this.
Ukraine does have quality engineers, does have better economics and less corruption than other CIS countries, and has been a considerable supporter of US interests (e.g., they dropped one of the highest levels of troops into Iraq for support. Even though, honestly, a country like that couldn't afford large military action, they did so anyway and I might add- with a level of political push considerably lower than others.)
They are a society with European heritage, a large number of the population understands English, German, French, Italian, etc.) and for most Americans travelling to a typical "outsource" destination, Ukraine is both a familiar and not-so-culture-shocking destination (Compared, say, to China or India, for most Americans)
I cannot say they don't have drawbacks, but I've researched the area heavilly and found that the people are much like the USA glory days -- preferring "Handles" and such, for fun mostly, and their display of individual pride. Here in old Silicon Valley, I'm corporate Borg. Getting sick of it.
The organized crime aspects, well, I've had many discussions about that as well-- software isn't really their target, though. In most cases, its usually "competition" that drives the hostilities, and likewise, the vast majority of such cases are non-violent... just annoying (phone turned off, electricity cut, etc.) Like anywhere in the world, if you don't want trouble, don't start trouble. Respect goes a long way in those cultures.
Personally, I'd jump at the chance to go to Ukraine myself. I think it would be rewarding and fun to help cultivate not only the economic flow, but to work with the people there.
For those who are more politically inclined about how the Ukrainian air is going, the present Presidential Elections in Ukraine are showing a huge outpouring of support for the new candidate that wishes to bring Ukraine into the EEC.
There aren't that many CIS countries that can say they are trying quite as hard to embrace the Westernized world by cooperation and with as little grandstanding as Ukraine is doing.
Anyway, they aren't so bad: Wikkkipedia on Ukraine and they can ROCK too!
Peace out. :)
US may have the largest number of programmer, but I think India has the largest number of employed programmers.
I've gotten the impression that there is lots of pascal development still going on in Easter Europe, including turbo. That seems to be something of a dying / lost art in the US. I wonder if there is a viable business in maintaining / updating pascal code.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
If you're American, then you should learn Spanish because it's your countrie's second language.
If you're Canadian, then you should learn French because it's your countrie's second language.
If you are only interested in getting the college elective requirement satisfied, then go with French or Spanish because half of the words are the same as in English. German has a lot of simple words that are the same as English, but it gets really difficult after the first semester.
Any other language is far too much a pain in the ass to fool with. There will always be someone around that knows some English if you go to these places.
If you're a young male American, then whatever you do, don't study Arabic! You'll be the first one drafted after all the National Guard 35-year-old, weekend-warriors, '$150 extra a month and one weekend playing Rambo in the woods' people are returned home from their 'service' in the never-to-end Iraqi War.
All in all, take French. Even if you hate the French, it's still an easy language to study in order to get the college elective requirement done with. Second best choice would be Spanish, because you'll actually be able to talk to people after college. It will be real handy if there are no jobs when you get out of college and have to go work at the Burger King. Or want to go someplace really cheap to live that's warm and doesn't have psychotic police always shaking you down.
Everyone in Ukraine speaks Russian, many of them don't speak Ukrainian; this is because the Ukrainian language was surpressed during the Soviet era. So learning Russian makes much more sense especially because you can speak it in Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, and it's also fairly well known in many of the former Soviet satellites. Knowing it will also give a big head start for learning any of the Slavic languages. However, it's extremely difficult to learn, from my limited experience studying it.
German is a good language to know in Europe, but it's usefulness doesn't go much beyond the German speaking countries. You might also want to consider Portuguese, knowing it would be useful for learning any of the romance languages later.
So corruption it itself does not seem to be able to stop tech-business, though Ukraine is way lower at #122.
You realize that the list is in ascending order, right (least corrupt to most)?
"But in the end, the US never "takes" anything even though it could."
Except, you know... half of Mexico.
Of course, we only took the unpopulated half, because we didn't want all those Mexicans in our country. The parts that we took that were popluated had to wait until the majority of the people living there (or at least the territorial government) were white and spoke English before they were allowed statehood, kind of like Hawaii only not quite as ugly/blatant.
Ukranians didn't have some asshole like Disraeli come through and give away the crown jewels in the form of enforced education in the English language.
Seastead this.
I used to have a defineable, pretty unique skill. I can draw stuff as a draftsman on paper. My unique "skill" was pretty much killed by widespread CAD adoption. This major change didn't just affect me, it screwed quite a few hundred thousand other people that had decades of experience and knowledge.
This is not really a problem as it will only take two or three generations of designers to adapt to the new technology. Death will eventually solve this problem.
I could elaborate, but it's probably pointless to do so in this forum where computerization=cool.
Actually, even with mediocre command of German, you can easily communicate in Czech Republic, Hungary, western part of Poland, Ukraine, former Yugoslavia and Albania.
:). its all due to old Habsburgs Empire, and in Europe history does matter.
Outside large centers of demographically younger population, English is not well known there. Even if Yankee think different
With the amount of spam generated from Nigeria,
I would have thought that Nigeria would made it to the list.
No?
Wow...do you hate all the French, Spanish, Italians and Latin America(-Brazil)ns? Or just the annoying people who run around flaunting their language skills?
Take my word for it: If you haven't learned a foreign language before, it's going to be hard at first. French, Spanish and Italian have the advantage that their grammars are simple as shit compared to German and Russian. Spanish is probably the most straightforward because of the somewhat creative approach to spelling in French (it actually makes sense, if you can discern the slight nuances in spoken French).
Russian and German will suck ass at first. In German, there are a bunch of different ways of just saying the word 'the', almost as many for 'a'. What holds for both German and Russian are that most of the words in any given sentence will change forms depending on what role they play in the sentence, with each other, and what tense the sentence is in.
In Russian you get the added difficulties of understanding fewer cultural references at first, a lack of articles before nouns and fewer words that mean literally the same thing. E.g. English, "to have"; German, "zu haben"; Russian, "oo menya yest" (literally "by me is"). Not to forget the alphabet, intonation and changes in letter pronunciation.
Basically: Do you really want to learn any given language? If you do, go for it. If not, learn the most straightforward language your school offers.
Don't know about Yugoslavia and Albania but in the other countries you list I've had a much better chance with English, also people seemed a lot friendlier when I started the conversation in English.
--
Of course, we only took the unpopulated half, because we didn't want all those Mexicans in our country.
--
Well, speaking as a Californian, I can say that Mexico has already repopulated the area we "took".
Actually it's "Teh Ukraine"
You confuse me, is it "a wake" or "awake"?
Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
.
CAD software is good if you make a mistake or if you want to make a derivative drawing. You don't have to start all over again.
And CAD software is more fun than death.
Give it a whirl. You'll have plenty of time for death later.
I actually went to Kiev in 2001 to start an outsourcing company. It was a FASCINATING if not profitable experience. Kiev is somewhat cosmopolitan for an Eastern European city though not Paris. We started a joint venture with a CompSci department at the University of Kiev. The first class of recruits would probably have gotten a B as a group with a couple of A students and a bunch of Bs and a couple of Cs. The educational system for tech there is very rigorous. These guys were ready to go in C++ but we had them all take certs in Java to have things covered. Sadly, we were underfunded and when the bubble burst, trying to sell a software service contract for a startup in Kiev to someone in the US was nigh impossible. One year and the team took their terminals as severance. Helluva learning experience.
Learn Russian. People who live on Ukraine typically speak Russian or Polish better than Ukrainian. And most of Ukrainian programmers know Russian. Because there are a lot more technical literature published in Russian than in the Ukrainian.
Ukrainian language is more or less invention of nationalists politics from West Ukraine. And most educated people are located in the East part (Kharkov region) where Russian was always native language.
Speaking as a fellow Californian, you're full of shit. California was never "emptied" of Mexicans. Hispanic people have lived continuously in California since the days when the missions were founded.
What's funny is that most of the anti-immigration people are probably descendants of the Oakies, the refugees from the dust bowl. I guess being poor white trash isn't so bad when you have someone you can treat like a nigger.
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
... you are an expert about the quality of Ukranian education....
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Yes, I get it
I's kind of like all thre world class runners that come from the countries (malaysia, korea, taiwan, indonesia, haiti) that manufacture most of the running shoes.
Now I'm the grandest Tiger in the Jungle!
Can you cite me a book or website that is an example of this Indian English style that is totally alien?
Sometimes at department clothing stores when I am there with someone and not shopping myself. I try to see if there is any article of clothing made in a wealthy capitalist country like the United States where I live. I would even settle to find a tage from Italy, United Kingdom, Spain, Germany, Japan, etc. All I find is tags for clothes from Malayasia, China, Philippines, Haiti, etc.
If you only buy clothes made in the United States you will be near naked.
> People who live on Ukraine typically speak Russian or Polish better than Ukrainian.
That's wrong.
>Ukrainian language is more or less invention of nationalists politics from West Ukraine.
Damn lie.
>And most educated people are located in the East part (Kharkov region)
Wrong. Look at Kiyv, for example.
>where Russian was always native language.
Lie. Russian is wide-spreaded here _only_ in large cities.
Why hasn't this been moded up yet? Y'all a bunch of Seinfeld haters? It's also an oblique reference to the game Risk. Geeks like Risk.
A few months ago, we tendered for some work in the region of US$2m to be outsourced. The best prices came from Poland and Bulgaria. Then Ukraine, then India. We did site visits to all but India (their quote was off the radar) to determine their capabilities. We were not impressed with the infrastructure or general atmosphere in the Ukraine although their guys seemed good - it was too much of a risk and we could see it costing us money. Poland looked good but Bulgaria was cheaper. What to do?
And then, of course, the inevitable happened - the project got cancelled...
Did he inhale?
And you are... Irish? If not, I don't get what history you are coming from.
German, geeks need to know German.
was build 1936 in Germany (Zuse Z1) and not 1951 in Ukraine as BusinessWeek claimed.
The poster said Ukrainians can't see why they shouldn't be the next big thing in the tech sector. You are the only person to post with the word Chernobyl yet, and still you aren't making the point: WHO WANTS TO OUTSOURCE TECH PROJECTS TO THE LAND OF CHERNOBYL?
Not that it is their fault or anything, but having Chernobyl as their single most famous tech event isn't the good kind of brandname recognition!
Okay, maybe their second most famous contribution to tech is Sikorsky. But that is way back...
Sounds like you've never actually been there...
It's a tough place. REALLY tough, whitey.
Only an idiot could believe that two mafia clans fighting for control constitutes democracy in Ukraine. Even if one side mouths the mid-90s US sponsored crap about markets, democracy and a Protestant Jesus.
Same goes for Afghanistan, or Iraq,for that matter.
Ukraine and Russia now have the highest growth rate of HIV in the world, largely from injecting drug use. It is dirt poor in most parts. Like eat-what-you-grow subsistence poor, often with no running water,and horse drawn carriages.It used to be middle class before it became "free".
Western cooperation? I don't think so! Most opinion polls indicate the majority of Ukrainians would like to rejoin with Russia and Belarus - a far greater number than want to join the EU.
Stop reading shitty business magazines and read some reputable opinion polls.
Or watch a film called Lilya 4 Ever. THAT is what Ukraine in like.
At best,Ukraine will one day end up with business running like it does in Italy, IMHO.
Learn Latin. You'll get a good grasp of grammer and a decent portion of vocabulary so you'll be able to quickly learn any indoeuropean language after that.
You're right, but I don't think it's his fault, Russians actaully seem to belive all that because all their massmedia keep repeating it over and over again. They also think we support Yanukovich and Yushchenko is a CIA agent and a fascist. One thing that completly eludes me however is where he got the Poles from?
As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
is that near Elbonia??
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
Business Week should have said "stored program computer", or "Von Neumann computer", as per the timeline on this page. (Emphasis on "continental Europe"; the first Von Neumann machine ever, as far as I know, was built at the University of Manchester.)
Sergey Alekseyevich Lebedev, the head of the group that developed that machine (MESM), was born in Russia; that group also created the Big-Ass Computer series (OK, that's not an exact translation of "Bolshaja Elektronno-Schetnaja Mashina" :-)). There's a BESM-6 Nostalgia page about the sixth series of BESM machines. (It's a bit tricky to do the usual sort of buffer overflow tricks on those machines:
Yeah because I can hire those paddys for a few $s a go AND they'll thank me!
- This and all my posts are public domain. I am a Physicist. I am not your Physicist. This is not Physically advice
Ukrainian is an East Slavic language of its own. Dialects from East Ukraine are mutually intelligible with Russian to some extent. I've learned Russian as a foreign language (I'm German), and when I listen to Ukrainian speakers from East Ukraine, I understand about a third.
However, literary Ukrainian is far less close to Russian, and I don't understand it as easily. The literary language is also quite old; the first grammar of Ukrainian was published well in the 1830s (about twenty years after the first modern grammar of Russian), and the center of Ukrainian nationalism in the early 19th century was Kharkiv (or Kharkov in Russian), not the Polish-influenced West.Wrong again; the center of education is probably the capital, Kyiv (Kiev in Russian), which is in an Ukrainian-speaking region, and Lviv in the far west has an extremely good university. Even in the East, Russian isn't and wasn't "always" native language everywhere; my girlfriend is from Dnepopetrovsk, which is about as far east as it gets, and she's a native speaker of Ukrainian.
As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
Well Ukrainian and Polish are largely mutually intelligible to the point that I can understand Polish when its spoken clearly and slowly (ditto for Slovakian btw). But at present there is no significant Polish speaking population in Ukraine and the claim that people who live in Ukraine typically speak Polish better then Ukrainian seems really strange (for Russain it's unfortunately true at the moment in the Kharkiv region).
Can't really confirm that. I guess if you want to travel Eastern Europe, it's a good idea to know both of them, maybe a little Russian, too, even if that's even less liked.
It depends on how old people are, I guess, the younger population speaks English better than German, while older people are better in German.
As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
But then, most Slavonic languages are mutually intelligible to this extent... I mean, Russian is the only one I've learned, and I do understand Ukrainian, when people speak clearly and slowly, at least with speakers from the East (and it's a beautiful language, by the way). But when I was in Poland and Slovakia, I've managed to understand people, too, as long as they took the time and I took a little bother.
I guess it's cool to have languages grouped so closely together, you can get yourself understood in a much wider area of countries... But they're still separate languages.
As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
You appear to be an expert, so perhaps you can tell me: Is there an average social status of russian speakers in Ukraine. Are they upper or lowerclass?
Can't really confirm that. I guess if you want to travel Eastern Europe, it's a good idea to know both of them, maybe a little Russian, too, even if that's even less liked.
It depends on how old people are, I guess, the younger population speaks English better than German, while older people are better in German.
Must been all those German tourists from the 1930's and 40's.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
I need to pick up a foreign language elective. Should I learn Russian, Ukrainian, German, or another? (note: not French, Spanish, or Italian. I hate everyone who speaks those)
Pick the one with hot babes that you like. Nothing motivates learning like the possibility of a sleeping dictonary.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
German is also understood by the majority of Dutch people, especially the older people. Young people tend to be better in English though, but they still understand German.
German and Dutch is -very- simular. If you know German, you can understand Dutch if the native speaker just speaks slowely. There are even some border regions (zuid limburg, around Aachen) where people speak a dialect that is a perfect cross between Dutch and German.
Oh, and for the ones who don't know. Half of Belgium speaks Dutch too, and therefore understands German as well.
Ukrainian is the native language of, suprisingly, Ukraine. Russian being widely spoken in Ukraine is the invention (to use your word) of many years of Russian oppression and of a Soviet aim to completely stamp out all semblences of nationalism and heritage. Even now when the USSR is finally gone, there is a strong push from Moscow to make Russian the official language of many of their former oppressees (which is necessary since aside from aggressive colonialism and a little oil, Russia has few natural resources and needs its former conquests for things like agriculture). Apparently you are one of the victims of their ridiculous propaganda if you really believe the Ukrainian language is some kind of a scam.
Analogy: groups in Texas, southern California and Florida band together on a marketing campaign to make Spanish the official language of the U.S. Campaing spokesman says, "English is more or less an invention of nationalists from the northern U.S. Look at southern Florida: most people here speak Spanish better than English!"
I've often felt that there is something in the makeup of the slavic brain which creates the potential for feats of mathematical and technical wizardry unavailable to the western mind. Several factors could be at work. Just as Murray Gell Mann taught himself particle physics from dusty old textbooks in second hand bookstores, perhaps the use of outdated educational materials in dilapidated classrooms fosters extreme tenacity and originality in predisposed minds. Or perhaps the lack of exposure to brain-toxic Western influences, the Britneys and the fast food, coupled with good wholesome fresh produce (including copious quantities of potatoes - boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew) leads to a growth spurt in the relevant areas of the cortex. I for one have welcomed, and continue to welcome, our Slavic overlords.
The world is everything that is the case
Sure, maybe the 4th largest by quantity, but the US has the largest programmer population by volume.
"But in the end, the US never "takes" anything even though it could." Except, you know... half of Mexico.
:)
The USA did not "take" anything from Mexico. Mexico used to be associated California, et al, but Mexico seceded from the western half of North America over the issue of joining the USA. Please check your facts next time.
They look much better than the women we have here in Canada: the girls/women here try to look as ugly and mean as they can, and are trying hard to be un-womenlike overall. I want good-looking old-fashioned women. Feminists go away.
The prettiest girls there are; they all have the Mila Jovovich look with the slanted eyebrows.
I actually own a large outsoucing company here. The name of which I won't mention so i cant be accused of advertising. It is actualyl true. nearly every kid leaving school can program. Their brain power never ceases to amaze me. I moved to this country to start my business speaking no ukrainian or russian, I managed to put my team together when they also spoke no english. Six months later they all spoke fluent English and i was still stuck with pigeon russian. :)
Great people, and yes the chicks are ridiculously hot.
Why do you think Ireland will be a contender? Show us some proof or statistics.
Ireland is a well developed country and fairly expensive just like the rest of Western Europe. Unless there something you know that no one else knows I'm getting the impression that you just pulled the idea out of your ass.
Ireland is pretty big in software, though we do not have five year programming degrees like in some CIS countries. Per head of population there are more commercial programmers in Ireland than in Ukraine, United States, Russia or India. Maybe not as high a percentage as the Silicon Valley area.
Ireland should be offshoring to other countries but it is not, I think low and intermediate software management are complete control freeks (compared even to programmers) and outsourcing would be forced upon them by higher management rather than on their own initiative.
I tried to drum up a little interest in outsourceing to Belarus, where my bride is from, plenty of interest from Belarus software companies who had previously done outsourcing work, zero interest from the Irish software industry.
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I am starting a new SW biz in USA, and wouldn't mind hiring a programmer from the Ukraine...how does one find contacts or post an ad???
I kind of resent the fact that all these huge multi-billion dollar corporations get to save all this money with cheap overseas labor, when there is no parallel opportunity for me as an individual. I hear that there are programmers who will work for $5/hour (I don't know about the Ukraine)- it would be really great if I could jumpstart my sourceforge project by getting say 20 hours of programming time from someone for $100, or if I could do the same for art assets or anything else. Hell, if all the programming in this country is going to be outsourced while the management stays here, having this outsourcing management experience is going to look a lot better on my resume than if I had done all the coding myself.
Seriously, I realize that Sourceforge has the paypal thing which probably is more for rewarding work that has already been done, but there also needs to be some kind of micro-contract agency that allows me to get a set amount of work done in the future.
They are overrun with gangsters. Operating any kind of business is full of perils.
The myth of the psychokillers in shiny nylon track suits is unfortunately all too real.
Oh, and try to get a contract enforced.
And don't let them near any database with credit card numbers.
Other than that, sure, go right ahead.
Just how different is Ukrainian from Russian in the first place? I notice that they have the letter "i", not just the Cyrillic equivalent.
I think there's a qualitative difference between types of corruption in India and the former Soviet countries. My wife has a friend who's has worked as a journalist in Russia and Czech Republic, and a big reason for the move from Russia to C.R. was that in Russia the government and gangsters (not entirely separate categories) make a practice of killing journalists who annoyed them.
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In terms of revenue, Ireland is already Europe's biggest exporter of software, not bad for a country with 1/16th of the UK's population.
They got there by having a well-educated, English-speaking workforce, a large number of returning emigres with experience working in America etc and a government willing to offer generous welcome packages to international corporations and Europe's lowest rate of corporate tax.
India hopes to emulate that because the middle classes there are also English-speaking. Sort of.
The Ukraine will never become a serious contender because
1) How many Ukrainians emigres, once they've got out, would want to return there?
2) Judging by the spam originating in the Ukraine, their English isn't that hot.
3) Having a good Mathematical education isn't as much of a plus for software production as you might think, I'd rate widespread, in-the-home computer usage and exposure to the Internet far higher.
4) The biggee, government corruption. I, and most other entrepreneurs, simply won't do business in countries where the government doesn't have a serious commitment to tackling corruption. That automatically rules out the Russian Federation countries as Kleptocracies, by definition, cannot tackle corruption.
If you are someone living in India , Learn English for jobs.Cuz many Indians dont understand their national language Hindi due to huge regional dieeferences in culture and language.
My view on this is that this huge potential will remain just that - potential, without translating into anything tangible, like a huge booming offshore programming industry like in India.
There are many reasons for this, but I'll list the main ones only:
1) The government doesn't give a squat about programming industry or economy in general. They won't care about it unless there are some money to be had for them. It won't happen unless the industry magically develops by itself and even then will only be to its detriment.
2) Yes, Ukraine is better than most other CIS countries, but that only means they are neck-deep in shit instead of being totally submerged like Uzbekistan, Kyrgistan, Tajikistan and other whateverstans. Ukraine is worse off than Russia and that's saying something.
3) These graduates aren't good. You all know about problems in American educational system, but in Ukraine (and other CIS countries) people who graduate from schools are often simply functionally illiterate. They are just going through the motions without actually learning or understanding anything. You may think cheating and grade inflation became problems in the US. You aint's seen nothing until you visit CIS. These 50000 graduates are really bad programmers (ditto for 100000 in Russia).
4) Obviously, with such a huge pool of programmers there are bound to be some who are really great. That's why Russia wins so many programming competitions. This doesn't mean that the other 99.9% of programmers are any good. So forget the stereotypes. Ukrainian/Russian programmers suck.
5) You need good management to do this kind of business and the business education in Ukraine is basically as bad as IT education.
6) Ukraine doesn't have good image abroad and noone really does anything to change it, so it would be hard to persuade the prospecting clients.
So the only possible result is that the IT industry in Ukraine will remain quite small and insignificant in the international market. Sad, but true. Ditto for Russia.
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I don't think you can make a general statement about this. It all depends on where you live and what your occupation is. In West Ukraine, the general status of Russian is rather low. In the East, there's less status distinction on the basis of language. If you come to Ukraine as a foreigner, nobody really expects you to know Ukrainian, and in general Ukrainian native speakers will be extremely pleased and friendly if you can speak a couple of sentences in Ukrainian as well.
In administrative or technical professions, I guess there's little distinction either, partly because everybody there is perfectly bilingual anyway; due to the Soviet past, Russian is still the language of science.
The general official line is to replace Russian with English in the long run as the first foreign language and strengthen the position of Ukrainian, against Russian. In most schools, the amount of Russian has dropped significantly, and Ukrainian and English are compulsory now. For Russian native speakers, this is bad, of course, as their children have to learn two languages in school (Ukrainian and English) and so on. Similar processes are going on in most other former Soviet republics. The effects will only be felt in ten or twenty years, however.
As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
Not being corrupt is all fine and dandy, but having a decent sized local market (like China, India, USA, EU) is a lot more helpful.
I am glad I was wrong... You never know these days.
Not familiar with the Mexican-American War, are we?
"Mexico seceded from the western half of North America over the issue of joining the USA."
It looks like you're talking about California and Texas, whose white, English-speaking population suddenly decided they wanted to be Americans (again), similar to what happened in Hawaii. They both became states practically overnight, while other parts of Mexican lands ceded to the US that didn't have so many American transplants (such as Arizona and New Mexico) had to wait until the early Twentieth Century before statehood. Even Mormon Utah was admitted before them.
The US Army occupied most of Mexico's key cities including its capital by the time the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was signed. The Mexicans were also dealing with a cesession of states in the Yucatan that was partly supported by American filibusters (the original meaning of the word). Mexican independence today relied perhaps less on Mexican unity and the Mexican military than it did on the US Senate (who had to ratify the treaty), including such powerful senators as John C. Calhoun:If we're ever going to make good on the ideals of the American Revolution we first have to accept the mistakes of the past instead of denying they happened.
That quality is important is not very apparent to most managers (thought they might give lip service to quality). Quality is a very intangible and can't be crunched through a spreadsheet like quantity can. CEO or whatever thinks: "Hey I can get 15 Ukranians for one US programmer. Cool"
There are however some/many programming tasks that are not very challenging and can be done by any dope.
NB I'm not at all saying here that Ukranians are dopes. What reason is there to believe that they're any worse than programmers in any other country? It is only a perception (not a truth) that US programmers are better than others (ie. the argument that you pay more for Americans because they're better).
Engineering is the art of compromise.
I don't really know how similar they are, but they're both Slavic languages. In Kiev it didn't matter what language someone would speak in because they would both be understood, but I'm sure it would be a little different in Moscow.
Not familiar with the Mexican-American War, are we?
There was an emoticon - I was kidding. But the Calhoun speech makes for an interesting note.Thanks!
Although written with the Ukrainian alphabet...
What for you say Ukraine is weak? You think Ukraine is game?
Too bad the slashbots didn't get your joke. I thought it was hilarious.
Who modded my comment interesting? I trying being sarcastic, not interesting or insightful - which I typically fail at anyway.
In the future, I think I'll try to avoid sarcasm on slashdot.
Supposedly, on a tour of the Texas capital one of the guide's informed her elementary school aged group that "Mexico used to be a part of Texas". I always thought that was sorta funny and was sorta the original source of my sorta funny attempt at humor that I sorta tried to make.
The worst problem with trade that needs solving is the existence of tariffs, quotas, etc. These need to be removed, period.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
You can stick to saying "the Ukraine" all you want, but most travel guides, wire services, government publications, and academic works written over the last ten years already just say "Ukraine". Have fun living in an anachronistic world.
Yeah, and I suppose the entire continental US automatically came into possession of some polgrims from the Mayflower? And I guess the Philippines, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Cuba and Panama were a real threat to our way of life?
most Ukrainians tend to speak it, even if many of them don't particularly love it, and generally Russian is a much more useful language in the world than Ukrainian, because you can use it in Russia, too.
And because quite a few people in the Ukraine don't speak Ukranian, but do speak Russian. (This is true for many other former USSR republics, BTW).
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Oakies? You mean Okies, right? I think Oakland would scare the shit out of most Oklahomans.
It would be cool if it didn't suck.