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DVDCCA Sues Maker of Luxury DVD Jukebox

McSpew writes "The DVD Copy Control Association has decided to sue Kaleidescape for violating its CSS license. Kaleidescape's crime? They make a super-high-end (~$27k) DVD jukebox system that caches DVD movies onto a server (3.3TB of disk space). Kaleidescape says they've complied with the terms of their CSS license and they're considering countersuing. I want one, but I'm not a pro athlete, rapper or movie star, so I'll probably have to roll my own."

260 comments

  1. Legitimate uses forbidden now? by Overzeetop · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Okay, so instead of going after those evil soccer-mom pirate types, the target is going to be folks who can pay more for a server than the software itself? $27k/(3.3TB/9G) = $74 per title. That a lot of jack compared to a 300 disc Sony changer at $299.

    Note: I'm using 9G average, figuring on the odd 2 disc set balancing out the typical 7G on a disc.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    1. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by tanguyr · · Score: 3, Informative

      ...the target is going to be folks who can pay more for a server than the software itself?

      As i read the article, the target is people who violate the license agreement they signed, not their customers.

      --
      #!/usr/bin/english
    2. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by r2q2 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think the thing that irks the DVDCCA is the fact that it creates a permament copy. You could theoretically rent all of those movies and not pay a penny for the content (minus the renting charge which is small).

      --
      My UID is prime is yours?
    3. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by gcaseye6677 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is not about piracy; it's about control. People who blow almost $30,000 on a glorified DVD player have no need to pirate the movies. This is about the movie studios keeping 100% control over how the end user uses the product they have paid for. If a company is allowed to make an expensive jukebox, then a company will be allowed to make a cheap one. Which means individuals will be able to buy them, someone might install a copy of a movie they didn't pay for, someone might figure out how to get the annoying ads off of the beginning of the movie, etc. The studios just don't get it. They fought the VCR from the beginning, and they are continuing to fight every new version of the home video recorder. Ultimately, these stupid efforts at control cost the studios a lot more than they could ever gain from it, but this is what happens when a business is run "by the numbers" with no regard for the customers.

    4. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      it's worse then that. they say in the article that the $27k model holds up to 160 movies. $27k/160=$168 per movie.

      and they say CSS was designed to prevent coping. HAHAHA, CSS does nothing to prevent coping. if you copy the files from one dvd to another, it will play. no decoding/encoding required. when does this copy protection kick in?

    5. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by aichpvee · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      You're a liar! No one reads the articles on /..

      --
      The Farewell Tour II
    6. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by Curtman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I guess the lesson to be learned is: don't get the license. Same deal with SCO, being a paying customer doesn't get you any loyalty, only legal snares to entrap you in.

    7. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by RPI+Geek · · Score: 1

      when does this copy protection kick in?

      When CSS was implemented, DVD burners weren't yet readily available on the consumer market. CSS was designed to prevent copying from a DVD to a computer, which DeCSS solved.

      --

      - "Nobody came out that night, not one was ever seen. But Old Man Stauf is waiting there, crazy sick and mean!"
    8. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by martok · · Score: 1

      Afaik, most people cannot do this. You can't
      just copy a DVD bit for bit without decrypting
      the content on consumer hardware. The CSS keys
      are stored in an area on the disk which standard
      DVD burners will not write. Thus a copy without
      CSS decryption would be unplayable.

    9. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      First, how could I possibly have time to read TFA and still get a decent spot in the posting (I was going for two first posts in two days, but wanting to make a point took too long, apparently)

      Anyway, I did scan the article, and yes, they're going after Kaleidescope. While I suppose this could be like trademark protection (defend to the death or lose it), it seems pretty silly.

      To assume that these are being used for piracy is a bit paranoid. You're talking about paying $27k for the ability to "pirate" $6k in software. There's no significant financial incentive to use this device for copyright infringement purposes.

      DVDCCA may feel they have a claim, but I think they win it's going to be a pretty hollow victory.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    10. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by yiffyfox · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I would be more worried about...

      "The Kaleidescape Server can serve multiple movies simultaneously to Kaleidescape Movie Players throughout the home. The components interconnect over standard CAT 5 Ethernet cabling." throughout the home, or the internet

      Stick this puppy in school or something.. sheesh or better yet on the internet. Thats why they are getting sued.

    11. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by shotfeel · · Score: 1

      OTOH, it would be cheaper to buy all the movies and a $50 DVD player than it would be to buy this monstrosity to begin with.

    12. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 1

      Sure, a Kaleidoscape owner has paid $74/movie, but not to the MPAA. The goal of the DVD Forum/DVDCCA is that the MPAA/studios make all the money and electronics/software companies are left with crumbs.

    13. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by Overzeetop · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Transmission over CAT5 doesn't necessarily imply TCP/IP-ready streaming. I suspect this is dedicated cabling running either to dedicated remotes or VGA/composite over CAT5 with baluns at the client end.

      It could be used in a multi-user houshold, but there are pretty limited cases where you would be violating typical copyright licenses. You can watch different DVDs in every room legally, you can watch the same DVD on multiple TVs simultaneously legally. The only case I can think of is playing the same title asyncronously in multiple locations.

      $27k is way above my threshold for a DVD server, so I'm not familiar with the hardware. I've got $1000 in the box I want to use as one...but it's just a pipe dream until I can come up with 2TB of space for my collection (Actually, I can probably rip most of my 200+/- titles to 1.3 or 1.4TB if I reauthor to the main feature alone)

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    14. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by itwerx · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Sig: Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?

      By definition half the population is of below average intelligence...

    15. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by StateOfTheUnion · · Score: 1
      the target is going to be folks who can pay more for a server than the software itself?

      No, not really . . . They are suing the guy that makes the server not the person that bought the server. . . . and I think its even a little deeper than that. The evil movie protection folks don't want the producer of a movie server setting a precendent that it's OK to make a permanent copy of the movie on another medium. . . This would open the door to other movie-server appliance type devices that might be cheaper than the movies themselves.

      Personally, I don't agree with the control freak movie studio folks, but based on past behavior, its not hard to figure out their behavior pattern . . .

    16. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by sxpert · · Score: 1

      right, particularly as a dual opteron based box that does the same thing would go for about 5K...

    17. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by Overzeetop · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I think I should make a journal entry on this. I'm not as worried about the intellegence, as the amazing propensity for people not to use it in everyday life. I know lots of smart people who just don't bother to sit down and think about stuff, or do simple research on what they read/hear. The amazing number of urban legends I get in email from otherwise intellegent friends and relatives is staggering proof.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    18. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by TheUnFounded · · Score: 1

      Perfectly put. I actually know someone who bought one of these things. He also happens to own a library of, no lie, over 700 DVD titles. All purchased, all nicely tucked away in their little binders. Heaven forbid he put any of them on a server...

    19. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by steve_bryan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Did you actually RTFA? Kaleidescape had a license with the DVD-CCA and obviously went to considerable lengths to keep them happy. This is a well funded, high end effort. I'd be willing to bet that the DVD-CCA just changed their minds and have decided to add punitive legal expenses to the profit calculations to nullify the previously legitimate business enterprise.

      In other words the DVD-CCA probably knows they won't prevail in court but because of their deep pockets hope to win by attrition. I wasn't a great fan of Kaleidescape (too expensive by a wide margin) but I hope they countersue and win an amount large enough to cause real discomfort for the weasels at DVD-CCA.

    20. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by lucason · · Score: 1

      I'll do you one better. Rip it to Xvid on your KnoppMythTV box.

      You can get more video on one 250Mb drive than on 300 discs in any changer.

    21. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by rjelks · · Score: 1

      I actually just got 4 or 5 copies of the Bill Gates chain letter the other day. What is that, like 5 years old?

    22. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by dossen · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Wrong: Assume population of 10 persons. 6 with IQ 110, 3 with IQ 90, and one with IQ 70. The average IQ is (6*110+3*90+70)/10 = 100. There are however 6 persons with above avarage IQ. So half the population is not "by definition" of below average intelligence. The word you are looking for is median.

    23. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by drew · · Score: 1

      [pedantic mode="math_terms"]
      That depends whether by average you mean the median, the mode, or the mean. Typically average is used interchangeably with mean, although it can be used to describe any of the three.

      Half of any group will by definition be below the median. However, it is very easily possible for more or less than half of a group to be below the mean, which is usually called the average.
      [/pedantic]

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    24. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by rjelks · · Score: 1

      No kidding...I've got a couple of hundred on demand for only the cost of some spare hardware and a couple of hundred in drives. Although, if I could justify a plasma, I'd probably notice the compression.

    25. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      I started to do that and was dissapointed in the quality of the resulting rip. One specific instance is on "The Ittalian Job" near the beginning of the movie when all the birds fly off I got horrible artifacting from all the dischordant motion in the picture. Any thought on solving this (or what I did wrong)? I re-riped and transcoded the movie to no avail.
      -nB

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    26. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by slaker · · Score: 1

      You might consider one of these instead.

      Certainly cheaper, with higher capacity storage and an RS232 port for advanced geekery. I'd love to have by-wire controls on mine rather than using the IR emitter I'm using now, but other than that these things are a lot easier to deal with.

      Plus they're SACD players as well, which is cool.

      I *have* a 2TB Snapstream server and some interfaces for moving video content around my house (either from my HTPC or from my receiver). It's nice for a lot of things. It's also a hassle to set up and deal with controls (I generally use a laptop + VNC, rather than trying to read text from the sofa), and it took me a couple years to get it to a point where I'm more-or-less satisfied with it... except for the fact that the damn thing crashes from time to time (I'm aware of mythTV but Snapstream's control for my satellite tuners worked out of the box, and changechannel for myth didn't). Even if I were just using it for DVDs, I haven't found a GREAT 10' interface for any PC DVD-playing application, either. If I'm storing .vobs and .ifos I have to basically make a playlist for each movie and if I'm storing MPEG4 files (which I do, for a lot of porn) I lose video quality and audio options compared to the source.

      When I look at how much equipment I need to make my HTPC really awesome versus what my jukeboxes cost, the $700 ($300 for the step down to a non-ES model) is a much more appealing option.

      --
      -- I wanna decide who lives and who dies - Crow T. Robot, MST3K
    27. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by roju · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      That's true, but IQ assumes intelligence is normally distributed over the population. So in any large population, both the mean and median IQ should be 100.

    28. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by DavidTC · · Score: 1
      Even if it does work over a real network, there's no promise that doesn't use a dedicated protocol or something that would preclude it from being transmitted over the Internet. It's rather silly for it to use the same network as computers, but, OTOH, the people who this is being sold these are people who have their whole house wired with CAT-5.

      As for async playing...that's one of those things that's assumed illegal, but there's really no reason to think that would be so under copyright law, as long as any copies you make are needed to play it. Is it illegal for two people to read two different pages of a book at once? Nope.

      What you can't do is make copies, but if playing it in two locations is making two copies of it, than playing it in one location is making one copy of it. Which it is, but making transitory copy is legal if they're solely to display it, and, thus, logically, it's legal to make two transitory copies of it.

      That said, this a) isn't actually a real concern, as there's no way someone would run out and buy another copy because the first was present at their location but in use and they wanted to watch a different point in the movie, so there's really no possible way to argue any lost sales, and b) I suspect the device delibrately won't do that anyway.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    29. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by srvivn21 · · Score: 2, Informative
      It could be used in a multi-user houshold, but there are pretty limited cases where you would be violating typical copyright licenses. You can watch different DVDs in every room legally, you can watch the same DVD on multiple TVs simultaneously legally. The only case I can think of is playing the same title asyncronously in multiple locations.

      The unit does allow this. I'm watching the press-kit movie (available from http://www.kaleidescape.com/news/presskit.html#k-e xperience) and at about 7:30 into the movie a user of the system describes just this scenario.

      Perhaps this is where the problem lies?

      As for the numerous people complaining about the price tag, it covers much more than hardware. The UI is very slick, and has obviously had a lot of time put into it. I wouldn't pay $27,000 for the unit, but I can see why someone would.
    30. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by srvivn21 · · Score: 1
      Transmission over CAT5 doesn't necessarily imply TCP/IP-ready streaming. I suspect this is dedicated cabling running either to dedicated remotes or VGA/composite over CAT5 with baluns at the client end.

      Sorry for replying twice. Just found this in the FAQ:

      Q: What are the home networking requirements?
      A: All Kaleidescape components must reside in the same broadcast domain, and be connected to a 100BaseT switched Ethernet LAN. We recommend that you have a DHCP server in your LAN so that each Kaleidescape component can automatically obtain an IP address and related information.
    31. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      So half the population is not "by definition" of below average intelligence. The word you are looking for is median.

      First point: median is an average.

      Second point: it's a joke.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    32. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      CSS was designed to prevent copying from a DVD to a computer, which DeCSS solved.

      CSS did no such thing. it was designed to prevent decoding a DVD without a license. Copying an image isn't even addressed by CSS.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    33. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by timeOday · · Score: 1

      For the moment, yes. But if this box were allowed to exist, it could be easily undercut even now. Within 2-3 years there could be similar boxes for $400, and it would be awfully hard to protest at that point. And the MPAA has virtually nothing to gain from this product.

    34. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by snarkh · · Score: 0, Offtopic


      That's true, but IQ assumes intelligence is normally distributed over the population. So in any large population, both the mean and median IQ should be 100.


      The score is calibrated using the Gaussian distribution. However you cannot make the distribution of scores normal by just assuming. Either it is actually normals (which it is not, of course) or there is no particular reason why the median should be equal to the mean.

    35. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by snarkh · · Score: 1


      Why would anyone call a mode "the average"?
      Makes no sense to me. For example, a distribution can have several modes.

    36. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by thisissilly · · Score: 1

      Depending on the number of simultaneous users it could support, I can see something along these lines selling to hotels for in room movies on demand.

    37. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by roju · · Score: 1
      Grin. To clarify, the normal curve is the gaussian curve. I'm going to refer this over to the wikipedia's writeup on the Normal Distn, which mentions IQ tests specifically.
      The normal distribution is an extremely important probability distribution in many fields. It is also called the Gaussian distribution,
      [...]
      As a deliberate result of test construction, IQ scores are always and obviously normally distributed for the majority of the population. The fact that intelligence is normally distributed is less clear.

      So there it is - IQs are normal by design. The median of a normal is the mean, which for IQ tests is 100. That said - it's just a statistics thing, any random sample of actual IQ scores could have a wacky median.
    38. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by Rosonowski · · Score: 1

      No, median is the middle number of a set.

      For example, the set

      1,1,1,1,5,6,6,6,6

      would have a median of 5, and an mean (average) of 3.6

      --
      01101001 01100001 01101101 01101110 01101111 01110100 01100001 01101100 01100001 01110111 01111001 01100101 01110010
    39. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by DimGeo · · Score: 1

      >> but this is what happens when a business is run "by the numbers" with no regard for the customers. Or this is what happens when the business is run by idiots. We can all see that: it is Microsoft, not some entertainment company run by drugged up braindead old fucks that is the richest company in the world. Why? Well, MS employs intelligent staff. And, we should all admit it, an idiot can *never* get that rich.

    40. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      No, median is the middle number of a set.

      And an average refers to mean, median, or mode, depending on what you feel like doing. Meanwhile, you've sucked all the humor out of a decent joke.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    41. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by Rosonowski · · Score: 1

      How about I replace it with a bad joke?

      "Two baby seals walk into a club..."

      --
      01101001 01100001 01101101 01101110 01101111 01110100 01100001 01101100 01100001 01110111 01111001 01100101 01110010
    42. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by Mysticalfruit · · Score: 1

      I would bet that it's a calculated effort on the DVDCCA association.

      Everybody knows that when a deep pocketed high end company comes out with a product, all the bottom feeders make cheap knockoffs.

      This is specify aimed at scarying the cheap knockoff companies from putting out a competing product.

      --
      Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
    43. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by steve_bryan · · Score: 1

      I don't disagree that this action is probably a pre-emptive move against future developments that the DVDCCA sees as threatening. A nasty element of the action is the potential crushing of a company that appeared to be playing "by the rules". I don't know the details but a venture like this does not proceed as far as Kaleidescape managed without dotting all the I's and crossing all the T's. I remember reading months ago (maybe more than a year) that they had negotiated a license from the DVDCCA for this product. The DVDCCA cannot pretend this technology came as a surprise.

      That's why I was hoping that a counter-suit is filed and the DVDCCA loses in a very expensive fashion so that cynical moves of this sort are not seen as a viable alternative. Kaleidescape had what appeared to be a lot of talent putting in years of their lives to build something that a lot of people want (at a much lower price).

      What I think is truly ironic is that the DVDCCA's action will prove utterly ineffectual in the coming confrontation with their customers. DeCSS is about as hard to find as a water fountain in a shopping mall. Anyone who is thirsty can get a drink and anyone who wants to rip a DVD and re-author the elements to get rid of all the annoyances can do that with free tools (again courtesy of the DVDCCA which effectively force these tools to be free). The DVD format is so successful and widespread that there does not appear to be any way to update its effectively open format.

      If we never expected to get cheap terabyte drives this would be relatively unimportant. The realization that IT IS COMING is probably what caused this litigious act. How does this lawsuit prevent the arrival of vast cheap storage? The answer, of course, is that it stops nothing. When people see they can put their thousands of dollars worth of DVD's on a $200 drive making it easy to find and view the content anywhere in their house, these elements will combine and make it so.

      One final irony in this projected future is that while studios rage and spew venom over the state of affairs they will make even more profits than ever before and largely because their format was successfully "opened". Truly massive video on demand (VOD) home systems will be an incentive for even more DVD purchases. If they had succeeded in tying the content exclusively to a particular plastic artifact as they had hoped there would only be the clunky DVD jukeboxes in a small number of homes instead of VOD in almost every home.

    44. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      My library of DVDs is over 400 purchased items. Due to box sets, actual DVD count is higher. And it continues to grow. Not that it would rival your acquaintance's collection, but large enough to make Sony's 400-disc carosel insufficient. I'm not certain, but I think most of it is unwatched and still shrink-wrapped.

      That said, this Kaledescape system is interesting, but even if I could afford it, it doesn't sound like it does everything I'd want. I want to be able to program it like a TV executive programs a TV station.

      When I've seen the last act of an episode of The X-Files I want to see the trailer for the next episode off the bonus disk before I even see the credits. I want to interleave episodes of Millennium with it so that the crossover episode airs at the appropriate time. Same for any other series on DVD with crossover episodes, either guest appearances or plot lines that begin and end in different series.

      And not only would I want to incorporate television recording, I'd also want to be able to push out my own live video over my home network. To have not just caller-ID information show up on the screen but also severe weather notices. To pre-empt all TVs in the house with an announcement to evacuate because of a gas leak or fire.

      Yeah, I'd like to run my own TV network in my own home, whether it be on a rigid schedule every day or just managing the queue (or multiple queues for independent viewers) of content.

      And on top of all that, including lock outs for scheduling activities other than watching TV.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    45. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you meant a 250 gigabyte drive, not 250 megabit drive.

    46. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? by snarkh · · Score: 1
      I am well aware of the fact that Gaussian and normal distributions are the same thing.

      The wikipedia writer is clueless - how can IQ scores can be normal for the majority of the population, either it is normal or not. The notion of normality ofr a majority of the sample makes little statistical sense.

      No real-life distributions are actually normal (although some are close to normal). However the IQ scores are normalized as if the distribution were normal and that approximation may or may not be good.

  2. Multiple copies by skraps · · Score: 5, Funny

    DVDCCA was also tipped off that other DVD players keep extra copies of parts of the movie in something called "RAM". Also, it has been rumored that Pentium-based DVD player software keeps even more copies of the movie in something called "L1", "L2", and sometimes "L3". More lawsuits to be announced shortly.

    --
    Karma: -2147483648 (Mostly affected by integer overflow)
    1. Re:Multiple copies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      don't forget the means of transfering all this data around, something that's even worse then p2p: the bus!

    2. Re:Multiple copies by stupidfoo · · Score: 1

      Maybe the DVDCCA will sue RAMBUS?

      And wtf is with "DVDCCA" didn't they get the memo on ending their acronym with "AA". So, either DVDCCAA or DVDCAA (that's easier to say).

    3. Re:Multiple copies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thats not funny. DVDCCA convinced a judge that playing a dvd made a copy of it and was therefore copyright infringement.

    4. Re:Multiple copies by shotfeel · · Score: 1

      I prefer the much easier to say "DVDCACA".

    5. Re:Multiple copies by MrNemesis · · Score: 2, Funny

      Jeepers. Please, no-one tell them about graphics card memory, which keeps a pixel-perfect copy of *the entire movie* in realtime...! I still want to be able to finish Doom3.

      --
      Moderation Total: -1 Troll, +3 Goat
    6. Re:Multiple copies by MHobbit · · Score: 2, Funny

      "This just in: DVDCCA purchases Samsung and Plextor. Samsung and Plextor DVD drives are going to be outfitted in such a way that they won't be able to read DVD's to prevent piracy, a DVDCCA spokesperson mentioned."

      --
      Debugging? Klingons do not debug. Bugs are good for building character in the user.
    7. Re:Multiple copies by cgenman · · Score: 1

      It's amazing what you can find when you look online. There are sites that say that each and every frame of a movie is copied to the television set before playback. And if your TV is attached to a VCR, that gets a copy too. And if that copy finds it's way to the streets of New York, it's not my damned fault they killed all of the legitimate uses leaving only illegal ones.

      Don't forget the disk cache, the copy of the soundtrack on the sound card, and the copy that was just put on Kazaa because if the F*$&ers aren't going to respect their customers then their customers aren't going to respect them.

  3. They just need a different license by __aaitqo8496 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The DVD Copy Control Association is just upset that they didn't think of it first.

    If they had, they could have made a seperate, more restrictive, more expensive license. :)

  4. I don't think they have a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...as long as they pay for all those copies.

  5. Caches DVD movies onto a server! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who writes this crap?

  6. Shooting themselves in the foot? by TooMuchEspressoGuy · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Anyone who can afford a $27k jukebox must own a heck of a lot of DVD's, most likely legitimately purchased (why would someone who can afford $27k for a "DVD jukebox" waste hours illegally downloading and burning a DVD movie, or pay for a cheap bootleg?)

    Regardless of the legality of the suit, the DCCA seems to be suing a company that caters to the most loyal DVD purchasers in the world. Such a misguided move can only have negative effects upon the DVD industry.

    --
    Many Bothans died to bring you this sig.
    1. Re:Shooting themselves in the foot? by StateOfTheUnion · · Score: 1
      George Lucas has a Kaleidescape box . . . He mentions it in a Sound & Vison interview in which he said that he had one of these boxes . . . (Its on page four of the interview about halfway down the page. Just a brief mention.)

      I guess Lucas is guilty of pirating his own films . . .

      Kind of a weird interview that really doesn't say much about anything . . .

    2. Re:Shooting themselves in the foot? by sirReal.83. · · Score: 1
      Rent.
      Cache.
      Return.
      Repeat.

      Even so, I fucking hate the DVDCCA.

    3. Re:Shooting themselves in the foot? by jimicus · · Score: 4, Funny

      the DCCA seems to be suing a company that caters to the most loyal DVD purchasers in the world. Such a misguided move can only have negative effects upon the DVD industry.

      Not at all. They're simply taking business lessons from Darl McBride.

    4. Re:Shooting themselves in the foot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This and NetFlix and you could have 3.3TB/ 4.5 GB = 730 Movies.
      It would take you over 2 years if you watch 1 movie per day. (60 days of watching movies 24hrs/day)

      If it would play DIVX compressed to 1.4GB you would 2300 movies (192 days)

      Who has this kind of time???

    5. Re:Shooting themselves in the foot? by DrJimbo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You seem to be missing the most obvious way that the Kaleidescape could be abused (in the eyes of the DCCA):

      Storing rented DVDs.

      This does not require hours of downloading or involve cheap bootlegs. I think the DCCA are addressing a legitimate problem here. If this sort of system is perfectly legal then once the price of the technology drops, either DVD rentals or DVD sales will have to go away because the prices of rentals and sales will be driven together by market forces.

      --
      We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
      -- Anais Nin
    6. Re:Shooting themselves in the foot? by mattyrobinson69 · · Score: 1

      they might download them if they want to skip the compulsary advertising on something they paid for.

    7. Re:Shooting themselves in the foot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the hell? Even if you can somehow rent DVDs for free, and assuming that the average DVD costs $20, you'd have to "pirate" 1,350 movies to even break even.

      Once the technology improves, we'll have moved onto the next standard (DVD-DD or greenray or whatever) which will, of course, require more storage space. (DVD quality is far from perfect unless you have really blurry vision.) I would speculate that unless that 1,350-figure goes down to, say, 200, for state-of-the-art recording quality, there is no significant threat.

      There is basically no question that the only reasonable use for this luxury device is to avoid having a mechanical interface to your legitimate library.

    8. Re:Shooting themselves in the foot? by the_mad_poster · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      You'd save about $2500 doing that assuming it costs $4/dvd to rent. I can only imagine how stupid you'd have to be to spend $27,000 on the player and then waste all that time renting and returning DVDs just to save $2500 on them...

      Plus, once you hit your limit, you either have to buy a new player or you have to permanently lose one DVD for every new one you want to add...

      --
      Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
    9. Re:Shooting themselves in the foot? by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      McBride seems to like suing competitors and past customers. The DCCA is suing a current customer. That's really stupid.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    10. Re:Shooting themselves in the foot? by spacefrog · · Score: 1

      Heaven knows something like this wouldn't be useful with, oh, say, netflix :)

    11. Re:Shooting themselves in the foot? by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      Such a misguided move can only have negative effects upon the DVD industry.

      Let's hope so. It could also have a very positive effect upon the general public if copyright laws are stricken off the books. That won't happen until somebody does a format c(ongress):, and installs open source.

      --
      What?
    12. Re:Shooting themselves in the foot? by HeghmoH · · Score: 1

      One reason somebody might download or buy bootlegs even with such an incredibly expensive jukebox is because the bootlegs and downloads are often available months before the legitimate DVD. Once again, the industry is actively driving people towards the pirates because of their inability to change with the times.

      --
      Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
    13. Re:Shooting themselves in the foot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      not in the slightest.

      you go after your biggest customers, claiming publically that they are pirates, and point at the numbers.

      they turn away their biggest customers, and try to show how "piracy" is "hurting america." ...more restrictive laws than the dmca are up and coming. watch and wait. and nothing you do will be able to change it. sorry, but that's the cold reality.

      you should *try* to prevent such new laws from passing... god only knows that *i* am going to try. but there is really no try; either you do, or you do not. and you have no politicians in your pocket. come back to earth, son.

  7. All my DVDs are "cached" too by YetAnotherName · · Score: 5, Interesting

    My media server has a ~1TB RAID5 setup, and I've copied each and every DVD I've legally purchased onto it for instant playback on our HDTV. The original DVDs go back into their cases and are stored away for safe-keeping.

    Have I exercised fair use? Definitely. Have I broken some laws? Probably. But I'm not going to give up the fair use as a result.

    And yeah, I should post this anonymously, in case the MPAA reads Slashdot comments, but dammit, we've gotta stand up!

    1. Re:All my DVDs are "cached" too by StateOfTheUnion · · Score: 2, Informative
      Have I exercised fair use? Definitely. Have I broken some laws? Probably. But I'm not going to give up the fair use as a result.

      The term fair use is a legal term. If you have exercised fair use in your copying DVD's to your RAID, then by definition, you haven't broken any laws. However, if your copying is not a valid "fair use" per US CODE Title 17 Chapter 1 Section 107 (If you're in the USA). Then by definition, you are breaking the law.

      Thus if we are speaking about fair use and the copying of DVD's to the RAID, it is impossible to excercise fair use and break the law at the same time . . .

    2. Re:All my DVDs are "cached" too by fishbowl · · Score: 1


      "Have I exercised fair use? Definitely. Have I broken some laws? Probably."

      What you have not done, presumably, is gone into a commercial enterprise where you sell your contraption, which is the difference between you and the Kaleidoscape folks, which is the difference between some individual with a modded xbox and the guys in DC in the earlier article, which is the difference between a guy with a personal stash and the guy who gets busted selling dope to federal agents.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    3. Re:All my DVDs are "cached" too by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 1

      Thus if we are speaking about fair use and the copying of DVD's to the RAID, it is impossible to excercise fair use and break the law at the same time . . .

      It's fair use and a violation of the DMCA at the same time. If the law contained no contradictions, the courts would have nothing to do. :-)

    4. Re:All my DVDs are "cached" too by shotfeel · · Score: 1

      As the article mentions, I wonder how MS feels about this given their vision of the "Media PC" making all your video available wherever you want to see it.

      On second thought, maybe MS likes this. More incentive for the media companies to jump on their DRM bandwagon.

    5. Re:All my DVDs are "cached" too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that the DMCA explicitly states that it does not affect fair use.

      1201(c) Other Rights, Etc., Not Affected. - (1) Nothing in this section shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright infringement, including fair use, under this title.

    6. Re:All my DVDs are "cached" too by crankyspice · · Score: 1

      Have I exercised fair use? Definitely.

      Sigh. Do you actually know what fair use is? It's a defense to copyright infringement. It's (at least) a four element test. It's judicially applied on a case-by-case basis. What you're describing almost certainly ain't it.

      It's a legal term of art with a specific meaning. You'd (royal "you") would be clawing my eyes out if I was talking about my "internet" made up of IPX workstations running Novell NetWare 3.

      While I'm sure you want to believe that any use you decide you want to make of copyrighted works is a fair use, please do try to use the technical term of art in a way that's supported by the body of law the term of art encompasses? Thanks.

      --
      geek. lawyer.
    7. Re:All my DVDs are "cached" too by 1ucius · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The anticircumvention provisions of the DMCA are completely separate from copyright law. Thus, it is possible to violate the DMCA without infringing any copyrights, and to infringe a copyright without violating the DMCA.

      Personally, I doubt this would be a DMCA violation. Its anticircumvention provisions makes 3 things illegal: trafficing an access control circumvention device, trafficing a copy control circumvention device, and circumventing an access control. The first 2 don't apply b/c he is doing the circumvention himself. The last 1 *probably* doesn't apply either b/c CSS isn't really intended to prevent access (as opposed to copying).

    8. Re:All my DVDs are "cached" too by rk2z · · Score: 1

      what kind of software are you using to serve this? And did you just rip the .vob files?

      --
      This is a sig, there are many like it, but this is mine.
    9. Re:All my DVDs are "cached" too by DavidTC · · Score: 1
      Do you know fair use is?

      Fair use isn't a four prong test, it's a two prong test with a three prong test as one of the prongs, if that makes sense. The law, as written, implies they are equal, the law, as interpeted by the courts, does not. (Which makes sense because Fair Use was orginally a common law principle well before it was an actual law.) It checks if (A+B+C) is over a certain point, or if D is over a certain point.

      Personally copying creative stuff onto another devince, for your own use to view easier is probably not fair use from the main three prongs. It passes the first prong with flying colors, it's non-commerical transformation, but it gets hurt at the 'factual' hurdle and destroyed completely at the 'small part of the work' prong. You want a screen shot of Luke Skywalker as your background, maybe, but nothing more.

      But that's completely irrelevant. There's a fourth prong, but it can override the entire thing.

      The fourth prong allows copies if you aren't hurting the copyright holder. Which you're not by ripping CDs or DVDs. Ripping them does not remove sales from the original, unless you're ripping rentals or borrow items.

      In sort, you can basically get away with making any copies you want of something as long as those copies in no way cut into (even completely hypothetical) sales.

      (Of course, there's the interesting question, now that music companies are selling electronic copies of music, if ripping MP3s cuts into that market. But this discussion is really about DVDs.)

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    10. Re:All my DVDs are "cached" too by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, it really is a four prong test. Since it's an equitable doctrine, however, the weight each prong has may vary in specific situations.

      Also you did it wrong. Reproducing an entire DVD is not transformative -- it's the same work. A transformative use would be if you altered it so much that it became something new.

      Anyway, satisfying the fourth prong may be sufficient on its own, but I've never seen that happen. The slimmest fair use I've ever seen is space shifting, and that's part of the first prong and the fourth. OTOH, I will say that I don't recall a fair use that didn't involve a win on the fourth prong, but that doesn't make it sufficient by itself.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    11. Re:All my DVDs are "cached" too by atomrend · · Score: 1

      I've seen a demo of the Kaleidescape system and was very impressed by it. It does the ripping for you. You put the DVD in the system and it'll directly copy it to the storage subsystem. It should not be removing any of the CSS. My understanding is that the company also made contracts with all the studios for this. The system is capable of skipping the menus and ads and playing the movie immediately from the beginning.

    12. Re:All my DVDs are "cached" too by medeii · · Score: 1

      Exercising "fair use" does not make you immune from prosecution. Repeat after me: fair use is an affirmative defense to copyright infringement.

      --
      got standards? --- http://www.w3.org/
    13. Re:All my DVDs are "cached" too by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 1

      [circumventing an access control] *probably* doesn't apply either b/c CSS isn't really intended to prevent access (as opposed to copying)

      But didn't the DVDCCA successfully argue that CSS is an access control in the DeCSS case? And region coding does control access to some extent.

    14. Re:All my DVDs are "cached" too by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      Ahh, but they are licensed to use CSS, they aren't some backyard group of people, they are smart people with lawyers and a valid license which they paid for with valid money and who will probably win.

    15. Re:All my DVDs are "cached" too by Xenographic · · Score: 1

      That, I guess, is a matter of semantics.

      You see, "fair use" is actually an affirmative defense to charges of copyright infringement (there are other types of fair use, actually, but those aren't at issue here).

      So you actually break the law, in some sense--you are infringing the copyright--but your use of it was innocent, so there's no harm, no foul.

    16. Re:All my DVDs are "cached" too by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      "Ahh, but they are licensed to use CSS, they aren't some backyard group of people, they are smart people with lawyers and a valid license which they paid for with valid money and who will probably win."

      Big enough to take on the MPAA and win? More power to 'em!

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    17. Re:All my DVDs are "cached" too by HeghmoH · · Score: 1

      Thus if we are speaking about fair use and the copying of DVD's to the RAID, it is impossible to excercise fair use and break the law at the same time . . .

      I beg to differ. If I break into Joe's house, plunge a butcher knife into his chest, and then use his shiny new DVD copier to make personal-use-only backup copies of my movies, then I believe that I would have both exercised fair use and broken the law at the same time. Not for the same act, though.... ;-)

      --
      Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
    18. Re:All my DVDs are "cached" too by SenorChuck · · Score: 1

      Well, no. The Kaleidascope people are not pre-loading movies onto the jukeboxes. There's nothing illegal being done here. So, they make a DVD movie server which in their information specifically states that it's designed for home theater use.

      Did you know that you can use a shovel to kill a person if you really want to? The tool itself is not what causes damage; the damage is caused in how the tool is used. That may be rhetoric that is getting tired and worn out, but it's not any less true today than it was 20 or even 2,000 years ago.

      --
      A wise person makes his own decisions, a weak one obeys public opinion. -- Chinese proverb
    19. Re:All my DVDs are "cached" too by SenorChuck · · Score: 1
      Do you suppose the ability to not view ads, menus, or anything not directly related to the content of the film itself is what the DVDCCA is so upset about? You can almost bet the farm that they aren't pursuing this on their own behalf.

      I smell the stench of consumer lock-in approaching. Like everyone else says, they want to tell us how, where, and when we can use the goods that we have purchased.

      FTA:

      "The express intent and purpose of the contract and CSS are to prevent copying of copyrighted materials such as DVD motion pictures," Bill Coats, a DVD CCA attorney, said in a statement. "While Kaleidescape obtained a license to use CSS, the company has built a system to do precisely what the license and CSS are designed to prevent--the wholesale copying of protected DVDs."


      That, to me, is a very telling remark. Obviously, the DVD CCA doesn't want us to protect our investment. They want all of our DVDs to come to ruin so we have to buy more. Sure, only the affluent can afford to buy the jukebox - but time and history have shown that most normal consumer-grade products are a devolution from the extremely fancy/expensive versions.
      --
      A wise person makes his own decisions, a weak one obeys public opinion. -- Chinese proverb
    20. Re:All my DVDs are "cached" too by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      Ah, but the rub is that you have no fair use rights to the tools. Any prosecution over your making a fair use copy won't be over making of the copy but for having the tools to make the copy.

      Thus legal ends become evidence of illegal means, and exercising your fair use defense becomes an admission of committing the other crime of possessing illegal tools for making copies of copyrighted works protected by technological means.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    21. Re:All my DVDs are "cached" too by StateOfTheUnion · · Score: 1
      However you ignored the first clause of the sentence:

      Thus if we are speaking about fair use and the copying of DVD's to the RAID

      This bounded the scope of the statement to copying of DVD's to the aforementioned raid system . . . when you mentioned killing someone, you changed the scope of the argument . . . . But I will admit that I could have stated the bounds of the argument better . . .

    22. Re:All my DVDs are "cached" too by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      I'd say yes for the following reasons. 1) They sell a product which probably has a profit margin on it of at least $10-15k per unit. This means both that they have money and that they must have a credible name in the industry in order to have even foolish rich people shell out $30k for their product. 2) They are a legitimate licensee so the MPAA can't use it's usual stunts, if they come down too draconian on this company they might scare off future licenscees and therefor future profits. 3) This is probably a pretty good test case in general because unlike nearly every other MPAA/RIAA/etc lawsuit this is against a company which is at least on paper legal and whose clients are wealthy enough to object to being painted as criminals.

  8. How long will equipment to "roll your own" exist by gmknobl · · Score: 2, Interesting

    With this type of goofy draconian suing going on and the supposed implementation of anti-copying hardware going into production on DVD drives for PCs, how much longer can we expect to have equipment available to consumers that will allow us to roll our own without either

    • having tons of EE/CE knowledge
    • being able to afford doing so comparetively cheaply
    • or having some doofus suit-happy corporation suing our A** off?
  9. The problem by the_skywise · · Score: 0

    What's to stop people from going to Blockbuster Video, renting a few hundred DVDs and copying them to this device?

    That *is* violation of the DVD consortium license. Isn't it?

    1. Re:The problem by mscnln · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What's to stop people from going to Blockbuster Video, renting DVDs and copying them to their computer?? I guess the DVDCCA needs to sue all makers of dvd drives and hard drives (in addition to RAM) for computers too...

    2. Re:The problem by kenelbow · · Score: 1

      Well, a high cost of entry for one. I don't know about you, but I can't exactly afford $27,000 for this device. If I could do you think I would be going to Blockbuster or getting DVDs in the mail from Netflix? Nope, I'd probably just buy every single DVD that I was remotely interested in, so I could watch it if I ever got the itch to. And that's exactly when a server like this is useful. I wouldn't have to get up an hunt around for the DVD in question I would just use my monster big screen to browse until I found it on the Kaleidescape server. My take on this lawsuit can best be expressed in the words of Homer Simpson: "Of Course! Its so simple...wait no it isn't. Its needlessly complicated!"

      --
      What witty sig? I can't be witty, I'm a Methodist.
    3. Re:The problem by the_skywise · · Score: 1

      The only "legitimate" software that allowed that was shut down by the DVD consortium. For just that reason.

    4. Re:The problem by TooMuchEspressoGuy · · Score: 4, Insightful
      "What's to stop people from going to Blockbuster Video, renting a few hundred DVDs and copying them to this device?"

      The short answer: nothing. But that doesn't mean that these "DVD jukeboxes" should be outlawed, since the *potential* for abuse is not good enough grounds to make something illegal.

      To offer an anaolgy: Knives can be used to commit murder as easily as they can be used for legitimaate uses (say, to chop vegetables.) But no one is suggesting that we make knives illegal, since their benefit in legal use far outweighs the danger that someone might use them to stab another person. In the same way, the benefit that hardware or software that can be used to backup DVD's has in the realm of fair use far outweighs the harm that can come from a few lazy nitwits renting movies from Blockbuster and making copies of them.

      --
      Many Bothans died to bring you this sig.
    5. Re:The problem by jaraxle · · Score: 1

      What's to stop people from going to [Insert Hunting Store Here], buying a rifle and shooting people with it?

      That *is* violation of the law. Isn't it?

      However, it shouldn't be illegal to sell rifles to hunters who actually plan on using them to hunt game (unless you're one of those people staunchly opposed to hunting, in which case you think the opposite, but my point is still valid).

      Just because something CAN be used to circumvent copyright doesn't mean that the powers that be should use all of their legal might to prevent a useful (albeit very expensive) device from being made for consumers willing to pay for it. This way, anyone wanting to use it legally doesn't even have the option to do so.

      ~jaraxle

    6. Re:The problem by stanmann · · Score: 2, Funny

      WHO is going to pay $27K to save $19.95?.

      --
      Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed
    7. Re:The problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spending $27K to copy 3.3TB worth of DVDs at Blockbuster is a tad inefficient . . .

      You would have to be the worst mathematician in history to think that is a good idea.

    8. Re:The problem by Queejibo · · Score: 1

      >"What's to stop people from going to Blockbuster Video, renting a few hundred DVDs and copying them to this device?

      That *is* violation of the DVD consortium license. Isn't it?"

      An affirmative action needs to be taken by the user to pirate the material. Simply because the technology exists to be misused, should it be outlawed? The lady that ran her car over those kids shouldn't be the reason I have to walk to work, right? After all, she did misuse the technology for an obviously illegal reason. By that logic, we should outlaw fire and all its resulting evil too cos that will only bring heartache and sorrow...

    9. Re:The problem by Curtman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The only "legitimate" software that allowed that was shut down by the DVD consortium

      What software is that? Surely you don't mean DeCSS, they dropped that battle. And there's absolutely nothing stopping you from ripping a DVD to your hard drive now, and burning it to DVD-R with the CSS encryption intact.

    10. Re:The problem by gstoddart · · Score: 2, Insightful
      What's to stop people from going to Blockbuster Video, renting a few hundred DVDs and copying them to this device?


      The $27K pricetag??

      You're right though. As pointed out elsewhere in this thread, they're probably moving to block the precedent before someone does it with cheaper hardware.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    11. Re:The problem by hairykrishna · · Score: 1

      Ok you sold me one. Where do I sign?

      --
      "Physics is to math as sex is to masturbation." -R. Feynman
    12. Re:The problem by Rude+Turnip · · Score: 1

      Well, for me it's the fact that I can rent unlimited films from Blockbuster for $30/month (3 out at a time) and let them catalogue and store all the damn discs. Why would I waste my time and resources copying something when it's always on call and someone else is maintaining the collection for me?

    13. Re:The problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      What's to stop people from going to Blockbuster Video, renting a few hundred DVDs and copying them to this device?

      What's to stop people from going to grocery stores and stealing food?

      Go after the people pirating DVDs, don't try to eliminate things that could be used to pirate DVDs. Sheesh, it's a simple concept.

    14. Re:The problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DeCSS was driven underground, 321 Studios was shut down, etc. There is no legitimate (i.e. you can buy it in a store) software to copy encrypted DVDs.

      And there's absolutely nothing stopping you from ripping a DVD to your hard drive now, and burning it to DVD-R with the CSS encryption intact.

      If you had tried it, you would discover that it is not possible, since the part of the disc that holds the CSS keys is not writable.

    15. Re:The problem by Curtman · · Score: 1

      you would discover that it is not possible, since the part of the disc that holds the CSS keys is not writable.

      I'll take your word for it, but "dd if=/dev/dvd of=MyDVD" I've done, and it plays just fine off the hard drive.

    16. Re:The problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the same way, the benefit that hardware or software that can be used to backup DVD's has in the realm of fair use far outweighs the harm that can come from a few lazy nitwits renting movies from Blockbuster and making copies of them.

      s/far outweighs/pales in comparison to/
      s/a few lazy nitwits/most cheap-ass people/

      Ignoring the $27K price tag, most people would be all to eager to copy DVDs on a cheap machine, given the chance. It's about precedence, not this specific machine.

    17. Re:The problem by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      The law. The same thing that prevents me from killing somebody with that Ginsu that I just bought, and that prevents Ginsu from being sued for it.

      Not Kaleidoscope's fault that somebody chose to break the law.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    18. Re:The problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually when you buy a Kaleidescape you sign something saying you won't go out and do exactly that. It's all in their EULA. If someone goes out and does it anyways than that's not really Kaleidescape's fault.

    19. Re:The problem by kfg · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well sure, but you're using "hacker" tools and a "hacker" OS. The skills and tools of piratical "hackers" like you don't count.

      The fact is that every computer DVD drive has a DVD Consortium mandated flash chip in it that scans for the CSS code, and if it finds it will refuse to copy it, and your so called "dd" tool is obviously an illegal copyright circumvention device (either that or the software you use to play the files has a DeCSS module installed).

      Expect the helicopters shortly.

      KFG

    20. Re:The problem by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      What's to stop people from going to Blockbuster Video, renting a few hundred DVDs and copying them to this device?

      They should sue GNU too:

      dd if=/dev/dvdrom of=/video/biglebowski.udf bs=32M

      because substantial non-infringing uses are irrelevant.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    21. Re:The problem by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      Im pretty sure he was talking about it not working after you burn it back out to DVD. That wont work, for precisely the reason he states. What you do will work, because what you are essentially creating is a virtual DVD drive.

    22. Re:The problem by drew · · Score: 1

      It may play off the hard drive, but you won't be able to copy it to another dvd, which is what the grandparent poster was saying. The parent poster was correct- you cannot make a bit perfect copy of an encrypted DVD. The guys at DVD/CCA may be a bit clueless overall, but they at least were smart enough not to make that obvious mistake.

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    23. Re:The problem by rjelks · · Score: 1

      I think it's stupid too, but I do see their motivation. Right now, a device like this is $27,000.00. Think about how much cheaper hard drives have gotten over the last 5-10 years. In another 5 years, our desktops will have the same storage capacity and devices like this could be sold at much more affordable prices. I don't think someone with $27,000 would bother pirating movies, but if you make the device $200-$300...well, I'd be off to Blockbuster myself :)

    24. Re:The problem by rjelks · · Score: 1

      sorry:

      "I don't think someone with $27,000 would "

      should have read

      "I don't think someone with $27,000 for a dvd player would"

    25. Re:The problem by martinX · · Score: 1

      Shooting people is a crime that will get you noticed by the police, arrested and thrown in jail.

      Ripping DVDs is a crime (DMCA circumvention)... but how does it get noticed if it's in your own home? The last thing we need is the bad guys (the movie studios)throwing up their hands and saying "OK, have your fair use, but we need a way of checking for fair use...".

      Just a random thought.

      --
      When they came for the communists, I said "He's next door. Take him away. Goddam commies."
    26. Re:The problem by mczak · · Score: 1
      If you had tried it, you would discover that it is not possible, since the part of the disc that holds the CSS keys is not writable.
      Actually, that's only mostly true. DVD-R "for General Use" have their lead-in area where the CSS keys are stored already overwritten when you buy them - so you cannot store CSS keys. However DVD-R "for Authoring Use" CAN store CSS keys. They are VERY expensive, I don't think I've ever seen a normal shop which sells them... Also consumer DVD recorders are incompatible to them, I'm not sure if a hacked firmware could solve that problem.
      DVD+R OTOH is different. There are no technical measures on the media itself which would prevent writing the CSS keys to them. However, recorders are designed to only write dummy information to those sectors in the lead-in area - a hacked firmware probably would allow to circumvent that. I don't think I have seen such a hacked firmware though, most likely because the interest in such a firmware is probably too small (as opposed to hacked firmwares which circumvent region codes).
    27. Re:The problem by Kindaian · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that normally, the blockbuster versions of the films are very diferent from the stores ones!

      (normally no extras at all, and no remastering or extra footage)

    28. Re:The problem by Curtman · · Score: 1

      Expect the helicopters shortly.

      I almost hope they do sue me. First it would look hilarious to have a Slashdot thread as the single piece of evidence. Second, How they manage to enforce the US' DMCA laws outside of the US (I'm never travelling there anyway - I saw what they did to Dmitri). And third, MPlayer does NOT use DeCSS at all.

      But yeah, I did laugh. Good reply. :)

    29. Re:The problem by Curtman · · Score: 1

      What you do will work, because what you are essentially creating is a virtual DVD drive.

      That was actually my point. How is that different from what these Jukebox people are doing, besides having actually paid them for a license?

    30. Re:The problem by Curtman · · Score: 1

      which is what the grandparent poster was saying.

      And thats why I said "I'll take your word for it". Did I say something to contradict his statement in my reply?

    31. Re:The problem by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      >The law.

      The law doesn't *prevent* anything.

      The law exists in order that there will be consequences for people's actions which are hamful to society.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    32. Re:The problem by ALpaca2500 · · Score: 1

      huh? care to explain that? i'm pretty sure the DVDs you rent at blickbuster are the same ones you're able to buy in stores... with the exception of "special edition" DVDs that are released after a first DVD of that movie is already out. (as opposed to the "special editions" that are the only editions available)

    33. Re:The problem by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      From the article, it would seem that the jukebox software isnt presenting the ripped DVDs 'as is' but is infact altering the content to directly play the main feature among other things. I guess that that is what they are complaining about.

    34. Re:The problem by Curtman · · Score: 1

      That's exactly what MPlayer does, as a result of not supporting the menus. I really don't care to watch the commercials/previews either.

    35. Re:The problem by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      Exactly. The law, and by extention, the threat of punishment, is what is intended to stop people from doing bad things with random objects.

      This DVD thingy could be used to illegally copy DVDs? Fine. Who cares? That's not what it's expressly designed and marketed to do, so it's up to the USER not to do such things.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    36. Re:The problem by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      I speak from experience that I have DVDs that have different barcodes on them than recorded in Amazon.com's database. I even possess two copies of Commando, same edition, but different barcodes, purchased at different times and not returned to the store in time.

      The makers of DVDs can easily mark copies for sale from different vendors; it isn't beyond their ability to have different pressings for them as well. (I don't know for certain that these two releases of Commando are identical; they're both still shrink-wrapped.)

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    37. Re:The problem by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      This isn't a matter of Kaleidescape violating a law.

      This is a matter of Kaleidescape violating a license, a contract with the DVDCCA.

      The DVDCCA could just make the license tougher to explicitly disallow any future licensee (and all renewals) from being able to produce a server like this. What they want is a ruling that says that the term as it exists in their current license against this is enforceable, which will send a signal to everyone to stay out of that market.

      It would help if we could see the license, but I suspect you have to be able to put up enough money to buy it before you're able to even see it, and that it contains non-disclosure elements.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    38. Re:The problem by Bastard+of+Subhumani · · Score: 0
      WHO is going to pay $27K to save $19.95?.
      My wife when the January sales start.
      --
      Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
  10. "YOU WILL ONLY WATCH GEORGE CLOONEY IN A CINEPLEX" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0



    News to Hollywood: You will bow to the consumer, and TiVo is our God.

  11. Exact Copy? by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The info on their Web site seems to imply that they make an exact copy of the DVD, probably as a disk image. This seems to me that they are missing out on one of the most important benefits associated with ripping a DVD. Can this system skip, the un-skippable commercials that are starting to be added to DVDs? Can it bypass the menus and be configured to just play the movie when you select it, without having to guess what button will play the bloody thing? Has anyone used one of these?

    1. Re:Exact Copy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It does make an exact copy, and the edge units play the exact duplicate, all of the functionality of a dvd player is present -- just not the disc

    2. Re:Exact Copy? by jdepew · · Score: 5, Informative
      From Kaliedescape
      Kaliededscape Server


      Because the Kaleidescape Server stores the movies on fast disk drive technology, it virtually eliminates all of the overhead and waiting that is commonplace when playing a standard DVD: no loading of physical media, no waiting for the DVD menu to appear, and no confusing options to select; the movie just starts.


      Been drooling over one of these since they were announced... pity that our liticious society no is treading on fair use AFTER issuing a license to do exactly what they're suing over.

      jdepew
      --
      http://www.linksysinfo.org - WRT54G Firmware Hacks and Linksys Support
    3. Re:Exact Copy? by ytsejammer · · Score: 1
      From the site:

      Because the Kaleidescape Server stores the movies on fast disk drive technology, it virtually eliminates all of the overhead and waiting that is commonplace when playing a standard DVD: no loading of physical media, no waiting for the DVD menu to appear, and no confusing options to select; the movie just starts.
    4. Re:Exact Copy? by Ironsides · · Score: 1

      If they are storing an exact copy on the raid array, then the images are still encrypted and require decrypting during playback. Probably also means that they don't skip unskkipable stuff as well.

      --
      Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
    5. Re:Exact Copy? by sploo22 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Can this system skip, the un-skippable commercials that are starting to be added to DVDs?

      They've had these commercials for a long time - my DVD player shows the icon indicating "operation prohibited by disk" when I try to fast-forward. The solution? Fire up Xine/MPlayer/VLC, and just open DVD title 1. That's almost always the very beginning of the opening credits.

      --
      Karma: Segmentation fault (tried to dereference a null post)
    6. Re:Exact Copy? by standsolid · · Score: 1
      Can it bypass the menus and be configured to just play the movie when you select it, without having to guess what button will play the bloody thing?
      Have you ever seen Zoolander on DVD?
      I'm male supermodel, Derek Zoolander, and I'm here to welcome you to the wonderful world of divid. So, are you ready to push some buttons? ...And I don't mean that in the stereotypical manipulative sense. The first button is "PLAY" -- this starts the movie. I know what you're thinking! It's a movie, not a play. But these buttons were made in the old days, when plays were movies.


      I can see where you got confused
      --
      WTPOUAWYHTTOTWPA
      What's the point of using acronyms when you have to type out the whole phrase anyways?
    7. Re:Exact Copy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      pity that our liticious society

      That some new way of saying of "litigiously delicious"?

    8. Re:Exact Copy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have one of these in our office (soon to go into a clients home). The movies that we have ripped arguably did not have commercials on them, but there are some added extra's. For example once you rip a movie, the unit goes online and downloads a rating (G,PG...) an image of the dvd cover, and a brief description of what the movie is about.

      Browsing through the myriad DVD's is performed via looking at the DVD covers/ hilighting/ and pressing play.

      Very sweet unit.

      Incidentally, our client had to fill out reams of paperwork before we could even receive the product. Let alone rip his *legally* purchased movies.

  12. You're not alone by Poilobo · · Score: 5, Funny

    "I want one, but I'm not a pro athlete, rapper or movie star, so I'll probably have to roll my own"

    Dude! I think they roll their own too:

    Ricky Williams
    Snoop Dog
    Woody Harrelson

    --
    Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
  13. so I'll probably have to roll my own by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    yeah, because 3.3TB of disk is so cheap! :P

  14. from the Kaleidescape FAQ by amuck · · Score: 5, Informative

    Q: Does loading a DVD into the Kaleidescape Server bypass DVD copy protection?

    A: Most DVDs are protected by the Content Scramble System ("CSS"), a method used to encrypt the video and audio data. Manufacturers of legitimate DVD playback products must obtain a license from the DVD Copy Control Association (the "DVD CCA") to remove CSS encryption. Kaleidescape has obtained such a license, and Kaleidescape scrupulously adheres to its required procedures and restrictions. For example, when playing back DVD content, the System only allows the audio and video outputs permitted by the CSS License Agreement. The System's analog video outputs are further protected by certain Macrovision technology, which was obtained pursuant to a separate license from Macrovision Corporation. The CSS License Agreement does not prohibit the copying of CSS-protected DVD data into memory or onto a hard disk. However, in order to comply with the CSS License Agreement, any such copying must be done without exposing certain types of DVD data (keys or unscrambled audio/video data) on "user-accessible buses," such as the PCI bus in a personal computer. The Kaleidescape System complies with this restriction by virtue of being a closed system comprised of proprietary hardware and software that Kaleidescape designed from the ground up with content security as a major design objective.
    Return to Top

    Q: Can I share movies loaded on my Kaleidescape System with other users or other homes?

    A: The Kaleidescape System is designed and licensed solely for use in a single-family dwelling. Kaleidescape's security architecture prevents movies from being accessed or transmitted over the Internet, or to computers inside or outside of the home. The movies on a Server are only accessible to Kaleidescape Movie Players that are attached to the same Ethernet LAN.

    1. Re:from the Kaleidescape FAQ by yiffyfox · · Score: 1

      VPN

    2. Re:from the Kaleidescape FAQ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and shit/TONS of bandwidth.

    3. Re:from the Kaleidescape FAQ by schmobag · · Score: 1

      Whether this company wins or loses, I think open systems and standards will come out worse off. If Kaleidescape loses, of course the MPAA be even more likely to go after the MythTV and Freevo guys. But it might be even worse if Kaleidescape wins only because they've gone to such great lengths to lock down the box. The MPAA will push legislation saying that the only legal way you can have a DVD jukebox is with insanely oppressive DRM. And with this case as a precedent, I think judges and congressmen would be too easily persuaded.

  15. $27,000 for a 3.3TB system?? by doormat · · Score: 4, Informative

    The hardware for such a system is only $6,000 or so at the most for a real head-end unit, and maybe $750 for each client unit. If you roll your own using DVD ripping software and something like MyHTPC (and a daemon tools plugin to mount the DVD images), its free in terms of software....

    Hardware breakdown
    Server:
    Case and dual power supplies ($500)
    Mobo + Processor + RAM ($600)
    DVD Drive ($50)
    3Ware RAID-5 12-port card ($800)
    12 400GB Seagate SATA Drives ($3600) (10 data, 1 parity, 1 hot spare) for 4TB.
    Total: $5550 + SH + Taxes

    Client:
    Shuttle SFF box ($300)
    CPU, RAM ($300)
    40GB HD ($70)
    DVD Drive ($50)
    RF or IR keyboard/mouse ($70)
    Total: $790 for each client

    So I'm thinking the DVDCCA license is REALLY expensive if they charge $27,000 per unit.

    --
    The Doormat

    If you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention.
    1. Re:$27,000 for a 3.3TB system?? by Loco3KGT · · Score: 1

      Basic thought on business

      You lose money on 25% of your customers, because they buy the lowend stuff you offer just to get people to buy your stuff.

      You break even on 50% of your customers who buy your middleware.

      You make your money on the 25% of your customers who buy the expensive stuff.

      It' $27,000 because they: (a) can get $27,000 for them, (b) are recouping R&D costs, manufacturing set up costs, etc (c) also want to make a profit.

      An example is that IBM used to make a huge LCD that they sold for $14,000 (roughly). Demand was higher than expected and the minute they recouped their costs they dropped the price. to what? $7000. At that point they had acceptable margins and attracted more customers.

      Novelty products for the exclusive rich have huge profit margins.

      --
      Blessed be he who reads this post, Cursed be he who tells my boss.
    2. Re:$27,000 for a 3.3TB system?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FYI daemon tools mounts dvd images without plugins

    3. Re:$27,000 for a 3.3TB system?? by Callitrax · · Score: 1

      4 TB Server: ~ $5500
      Display Client $800
      Quality UI with standard remote control:
      Priceless

    4. Re:$27,000 for a 3.3TB system?? by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      If you roll your own using DVD ripping software and something like MyHTPC (and a daemon tools plugin to mount the DVD images), its free in terms of software....

      Don't listen to this crap. People keep spouting off about how it's so much cheaper to do it this way, but trust me, there's no way to fit all that hardware into a rolling paper. What are you people smoking?

    5. Re:$27,000 for a 3.3TB system?? by doormat · · Score: 1

      That can be done....

      http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?de sc ription=80-100-501&depa=0

      http://www.girder.nl/news.php

      --
      The Doormat

      If you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention.
    6. Re:$27,000 for a 3.3TB system?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, the "standard remote control" is the easy part. "Quality UI" what really matters, and Kaleidescape seems to have gotten it right.

  16. Strong Bad would kick his ass. by Uptown+Joe · · Score: 0

    Strong Bad would kick his ass for such poorly formed sentences (and crap)

  17. The most loyal, and the *richest* DVD buyers by raygundan · · Score: 1

    Perhaps rich, angry DVD fans will succeed where angry slashdot DVD fans fail. I suspect that anyone who can afford a $27,000 DVD player has more clout than 27,000 nerds when it comes to getting this mess straightened out in court.

  18. I do too by dj245 · · Score: 4, Funny
    I want one, but I'm not a pro athlete, rapper or movie star, so I'll probably have to roll my own.

    Just make sure you don't get too exotic with chemical-dipping or cross-breeding of the commoddity product. I've heard that the formeldahyde can do nasty stuff to the safety factor and cross-pollination can introduce impurities in the final product. And try not to use bleached papers too because the chemicals released could cause damage.

    --
    Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
  19. Re:How long will equipment to "roll your own" exis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it already takes a fair amount of obscure know-how to sucessfully copy DVD's to hard disk.

    at least it does if you want them in a usable format. the ecoding on DVD's is a nightmare of kludges with a few bad ideas thrown in for good measure.

    Lets go back to the days of the video-cd... just one big fat MPEG on a cdrom... that was the way to do things!

  20. Re:Legitimate uses forbidden now? - one argument by Em+Ellel · · Score: 1

    To assume that these are being used for piracy is a bit paranoid. You're talking about paying $27k for the ability to "pirate" $6k in software. There's no significant financial incentive to use this device for copyright infringement purposes.

    A devil's advocate moment -

    For these end users it is a convinience to use this device to "pirate" stuff, not a way to save money. People lend dvd's all the time and if you have this device you can borrow a bunch of dvds and dump them into it - not because you cannot afford it but because a - you do not have to and b - it is easier

    Thing is while it makes no financial sense to the so called "pirate", the DVD makers do loose significant amount in revenue. Even if the owner of such device buys the dvd and then gives it to someone else.

    -Em

    --
    RelevantElephants: A Somatic WebComic...
  21. Untill an afordable solution comes along by Zentac · · Score: 1

    I dont think they have any problem with this perticular system, the problem they have is; if they don't sue these guys off planet, they don't have a leg to stand on when some "cheap labor country manufacturer" comes with an afordable solution.

  22. Penix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is that the latest distribution of Linux? It sounds like Miguel is involved.

  23. What's the purpose? by Anita+Coney · · Score: 1

    At $27,000 at 500 DVD, that $54 dollars a disc. Since $54 per disc is about three times the cost of the DVD, I'm not sure of the advantage.

    It's certainly not to save the disc by avoiding using it, because at $54 per disc it'd be cheaper to simply buy a second copy and not open it.

    Are we simply that lazy that it's worth paying three times the cost of the disc rather than to get up and stick it in yourself?

    --
    If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
    1. Re:What's the purpose? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes.

    2. Re:What's the purpose? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are we simply that lazy that it's worth paying three times the cost of the disc rather than to get up and stick it in yourself?

      Shelled peanuts.
      Power windows.
      Disposable diapers.
      Cordless phones.

      Yes. We are that lazy.

      In other terms, it's called "quality of life". You can revert to handwashing clothes, fireplace cooking, and crank starting your car if you wish, but I guess I'm just too lazy for that.

    3. Re:What's the purpose? by Anita+Coney · · Score: 1

      I don't know about you, but I do a lot of work FINDING my cordless phone. And once I do find it and make my call, I'm more prone to walk around the house while I talk, as I'm not tied to a cord. I'm not sure how having one makes you lazy.

      And I'm not sure how your other examples fit in either because they are not excruciatingly expensive compared to their non-lazy alternatives.

      Shelled peanuts don't cost three times as much as shelled peanuts. Disposable diapers actually cost less than the time and resources spent washing diapers. It's the same with the others.

      --
      If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
    4. Re:What's the purpose? by freakmn · · Score: 1
      Shelled peanuts don't cost three times as much as shelled peanuts

      Duh.
      --
      warning: This post is likely to contain gobs of dripping sarcasm. Consume at your own risk.
    5. Re:What's the purpose? by imsabbel · · Score: 1

      Its for people spending 30K for watching movies...
      Those kind of people dont want to bother copying 100s of titles, or searching around for just THAT movie that has to be somewhere....
      People who look at the price dont buy a 27K Dvd-player. No matter what features....

      --
      HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
    6. Re:What's the purpose? by Anita+Coney · · Score: 1

      Actually, the word "shelled" is ambiguous. On one hand it could mean that the peanuts have their shells removed, thus they have no shells. On the other hand it could mean that have been shelled, in that they have a shell on them.

      Either that, or I'm just too much of a moron to admit I screwed up.

      --
      If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
    7. Re:What's the purpose? by Anita+Coney · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it would definitely be a better organizational tool than having 500 discs laying around. And the living room would look cleaner as it wouldn't need shelf space to store all those discs.

      I wish I had enough money where I could spend nearly a years salary just to get rid of a shelf!

      --
      If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
    8. Re:What's the purpose? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With the shell, they have a greater volume and a greater weight, which means, it costs more to transport and store peanuts with the shell on.

      Here's something you youngsters probably don't remember. It used to be very common in the South for bars to have large barrels of peanuts, which you'd snack on while imbibing spirits, the shells of which would end up being the sawdust on the dance floor.

  24. Re:How long will equipment to "roll your own" exis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it already takes a fair amount of obscure know-how to sucessfully copy DVD's to hard disk.

    Using DVD Shrink or DVD Decryptor is obscure knowledge?

    at least it does if you want them in a usable format. the ecoding on DVD's is a nightmare of kludges with a few bad ideas thrown in for good measure.

    RealPlayer, WMP, VLC, etc. can play DVDs with no trouble; how is that unusable?

  25. IMHO by 4-D4Y · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I think politicians are stupid and should be replaced on a large scale before listened to. Also, less government is a good thing. I'm no expert on this either, but aren't classical Republicans supposed to be for smaller government that benefits business (laissez faire market approach) which in turn passes the buck to the middle guy, and classical Democrats for larger government that keeps businesses in check and maintains helpful social programs, which are then supposed to help the middle guy? How come the government now seems to take the position of obstruction to most everything innovative? How does that benefit the middle guy? Things seem to be getting progressively wierder in the US. The US could use more progressiveness.

    And somehow the Libertarians got into this and it seems to me that barely anyone's listening to them...

    The heck. Teach these ignorant jerks in Congress about these fancy new com-pu-ters and how they actually work. That "L1" "L2" and "L3" comment was excellent.

    Congress: I don't wanna learn puters.

    Congressman: Let's make a Dept. of Technology and Ethics! It'll take ten billion in annual funding.

    Congress: Ay!

    *sigh* I don't much care for our new Chinese overlords.
    --
    A-Day
    1. Re:IMHO by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 1

      Teach these ignorant jerks in Congress about these fancy new com-pu-ters and how they actually work. That "L1" "L2" and "L3" comment was excellent.

      I thought it was misleading and pedantic. There is a common-sense difference between a temporary copy and a permanent copy. Geeks who ehxibit no common sense will just get laughed out of Congress.

    2. Re:IMHO by merlin_jim · · Score: 1

      *sigh* I don't much care for our new Chinese overlords.

      I, for one, welcome our new chinese overlords.

      --
      I am disrespectful to dirt! Can you see that I am serious?!
    3. Re:IMHO by LocalH · · Score: 1

      You do know that legally, a copy is a copy, and the only reason you have the right to run software is because someone was smart enough to explicitly state so in the law? I'm actually surprised noone's attacked that part of the law yet - get that overturned and you really do have total control over how media is played, as you just claim copyright infringement when someone plays it in a manner you didn't authorize.

      --
      FC Closer
  26. A quote to note by MunchMunch · · Score: 4, Insightful
    "Kaleidescape creates expensive consumer electronics networks that upload the full contents of as many as 500 DVDs to a home server, and allow the owner to browse through the movies without later using the DVDs themselves. That's exactly what the copy-protection technology on DVDs, called Content Scramble System (CSS) was meant to prevent, the Hollywood-backed group said."

    I had to read that a couple times just to make sure that I was seeing what I was seeing. The CSS system was explicitly made to prevent people from exercising fair use backups of their legally purchased DVDs? I thought it was to prevent piracy? Moreover, after paying all those congressmen all that money, they just turn a cold shoulder to their darling, the DMCA.

    Kinda seems lazy on their part. At least they could properly cite the corrupt, consumer-hostile law they explicitly created to castrate fair use.

    1. Re:A quote to note by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's exactly what the copy-protection technology on DVDs, called Content Scramble System (CSS) was meant to prevent, the Hollywood-backed group said.

      No it's not. Unless their cryptographers had their heads up their asses, CSS was designed to enforce the purchase of playback keys from the DVDCCA and limit who could make DVD players. The CSS algorithm does nothing to address bit-copies.

      Is the DVDCCA claiming it's inept? It sure sounds like it, and the studios may be interested in that little tidbit.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    2. Re:A quote to note by zapfie · · Score: 2, Interesting

      CSS was meant to prevent unauthorized players from being manufactured and sold, not to prevent piracy. CSS never even comes into play if you are trying to pirate a DVD, as you just need to make a bit for bit copy, and the player you play them on will descramble it for you. DVD piracy hurts them, but not getting any royalties from manufacturers of millions upon millions of DVD players as the years go on.. that hurts a lot more.

      --
      slashdot!=valid HTML
    3. Re:A quote to note by atrus · · Score: 1

      But to make a bit for bit copy, you'd need DVD pressing equipment. You can't burn a CSS DVD since the space with the movie keys is preburned on DVD-Rs.

    4. Re:A quote to note by IO+ERROR · · Score: 1
      It bears repeating: CSS does NOT prevent copying of DVD movies. It was never designed to prevent copying of DVD movies. It cannot prevent copying of DVD movies.

      For those of you with a DVD-ROM and a DVD burner, try this trick: Use dd to make a bitwise copy of a DVD then burn the copy out to a blank. Throw the burned DVD in your home DVD player. Enjoy your movie.

      What CSS DOES prevent, and what it was designed to prevent, is anyone manufacturing a DVD player without a license.

      --
      How am I supposed to fit a pithy, relevant quote into 120 characters?
    5. Re:A quote to note by zapfie · · Score: 1

      Ah, ok. My bad then.

      --
      slashdot!=valid HTML
  27. Easiest Target... by al701 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So if you are a poor individual you get sued directly, but if you are rich and can afford $27k systems, then the company that is struggleing to get a product to market gets sued? Well you can't blame them for being smart about the targets.

  28. Agreed. I can rip my cd's by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

    But I can't do it to my dvd's?

    No wonder the DMCA was passed and how Hollywood desperately wants to switch to DVD audio.

    Control and setting up artificial monopolies indeed.

  29. Bad analogy... by the_skywise · · Score: 1

    You don't NEED a license to get a knife or gun. You do need one to manufacture DVD players and if you violate the terms of that license, you can get sued in a civil court.

    It's ironic that because the company played within the rules of the consortium that they're being strung up by those very rules. There was another company that made unlicensed Nintendo games and won the right to do so in court (though I'm not sure how the DMCA would affect that) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom_Tree

    The *main* problem is that if the consortium allowed this product out in the market, that would be a de-facto demonstration that it's OK for licensed DVD manufacturers to rip DVDs to hard drives (no matter the cost).

    I'm not FOR the consortium. I'm merely pointing out that it's in violation of the consortium agreement.

  30. Seen these and they are a joke by drgath159 · · Score: 5, Informative
    Last month at a home electronics expo in Long Beach and there was a Kaliedescape manufacturer's training session for this DVD-jukebox. I've always been interested in HTPCs so this was a no-brainer to see this thing in action.

    These units are pretty damn cool. I say units plural because you need three components. 1) Ripper 2) Storage/Server 3) Player

    They all look really sleek, black cases with blue lighting. So as the SoCal sales rep was demo'ing the units, I was a bit confused why they seperated the ripper and server, the rep responded with "Many of our clients would prefer to have a slimmer component in their library or den and the server can be in the basement." What? The server is the size of a rackmount case and the ripper is a little bit smaller. Why not save some money and combine them? I asked how much the units cost and for a 1 room set up with 1.5 TB storage was around $27,000. A few people started laughing, and a few others just got up and walked out.

    Why so expensive? Well for starters they include something like 50 DVDs already preloaded, which of course you are already paying for, but have no choice in what is preloaded other than 2-3 different packages. You can't buy the unit without the pre-loads. Also, the company decided to design the OS from scratch! Linux would be perfect for something like this, but nope, they said they've spent years developing a proprietary OS specifically for this unit. Stupid decision.

    While demo'ing the unit, the rep had a difficult time browsing around, like he'd never used one before! There were also some noticable bugs in the GUI too that one of the company engineers had a difficult time working around. We sometimes sat there for 5-10 minutes while they sorted out these issues. It was really unbelievable that they were charging this insane amount for a unit I could build for around $1,000. I'm in IT sales and this guy was a prety bad salesman so I was shocked that they put him in charge of what should be the territory that has 90% of their sales, Southern California.

    In speaking with many other companies showing off their latest media centers, PVRs, etc..., I saw some pretty impressive ones well priced too. Speaking with their reps, Kaliedescape was apparently the joke of the expo. They loved laughing and joking about that company.

    Bottom line is it was a cool unit, but waaay over-priced as other have noted before me. What makes it even worse is the reps at the expo included their main sales reps and some engineers, who were trying to sell us to be dealers, were brutal. So I'm not sure what that says about the company as a whole, but it is probably not a good thing. I don't see any way this company survives unless they get a ton of athletes/movie stars buying them left and right. At this point, they've apparently only sold a few dozen and its been on the market for I believe about a year. He seemed rather proud of that but making probably $5,000 per system, that isn't going to cut it to support an entire company.

    To answer a question I saw earlier about what's stopping the user from renting blockbuster movies to be ripped and returned. Nothing is stopping them. I asked that same question and the rep snobbishly laughed and explained that their clients don't rent movies, they buy them. Which is probably true. I also asked about how this is legal for them to do, and they said it took years of getting the movie indutry's backing, but they were finally able to do it. Looks like that might not have been the case after all. Now their clients all can be sued. Probably won't happen, but with the MPAA, you never know.

    I'm an avid anti-*AA person (DVDCCA is close enough). But in this case, I really don't care. I think it's funny actually. I'll laugh if they sue this company in to bankruptcy. They're going to die off anyways, why not speed up the process.

    1. Re:Seen these and they are a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm an avid anti-*AA person (DVDCCA is close enough). But in this case, I really don't care. I think it's funny actually. I'll laugh if they sue this company in to bankruptcy. They're going to die off anyways, why not speed up the process.

      If they lose, it sets precedence. The consequence of precedence would affect any other company building a similar device, regardless of the ability of the company to execute on creating a quality product.

    2. Re:Seen these and they are a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >If they lose, it sets precedence.

      It's a misconception, and an exaggeration that every court decision in every civil case establishes precedent for subsequent cases.

    3. Re:Seen these and they are a joke by drgath159 · · Score: 1
      This was the first thing I thought about, the future implications. Is this going to be the ruling to determine Fair Use & DVDs? Nah.

      This is going to have to do pretty damn far before it sets precedence, especially since as the other post said... it's a civil suit.

    4. Re:Seen these and they are a joke by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      I also asked about how this is legal for them to do, and they said it took years of getting the movie indutry's backing, but they were finally able to do it. Looks like that might not have been the case after all. Now their clients all can be sued. Probably won't happen, but with the MPAA, you never know.

      Yep, looks like it's finally come full circle. Movie studios suing movie stars for um.. having movies. It's only a matter of time before they sue the movie stars for stealing the likeness of the characters on the screen.

    5. Re:Seen these and they are a joke by Ian+Peon · · Score: 3, Informative

      I am the engineer you are speaking of who was helping out our SoCal sales rep during the demo that you watched. I am concerned that you are posting many factual errors about our product and our demo. To start with, our product has a sleek, white case which perhaps you were unable to see because of the lighting. We do not pre-load any content except for a few high-definition titles which we have licensed. You may be confused with the DVD Collections we offer for sale on our site. These packages are not pre-loaded - they are shipped as a collection of individual DVDs. These collections are available to users who would like to rapidly grow their collection with a minimum of shopping effort.

      While demo'ing the unit, our sales rep (Jody) was using the IR controller that I provided for him for the first time. It was a mistake on my part as he wasn't familiar with it. Additionally, I had set up the network in the room with a router that was failing. This difficult circumstance (exacerbated by the very short time we had to set up) led to a poor technology demo. If you noticed, I rebooted the router, re-acquired an IP address and the demo was functioning again. I was sitting in the back of the room for most of the demo and not a single person walked out.

      We wrote our own OS from scratch because other available OS's (such as Linux) did not meet our needs from either a technical or a legal standpoint. This is not necessarily to say that Linux would not be up to the task, but the legal requirements of the GNU may be incompatible with other licenses that we require, and it would be difficult if not impossible to comply with the DVD CCA's CSS license agreement using a general-purpose operating system. Additionally, it did not take us "years" to create our own OS.

      As the only engineer who attended EH Expo, I apologize if I came across as being "brutal". I'm passionate about this product, and sometimes that passion comes across too strong. Many others feel this passion as well, as we've sold hundreds, not just "a few dozen" units.

      Ian Epperson
      Software Engineer
      Kaleidescape, Inc.

    6. Re:Seen these and they are a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I also attended the demo, and the OP is correct on every account. I was one of the people laughing (hard). About half the people attending the demo stod up and left.

    7. Re:Seen these and they are a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I also attended the demo, and there were was nobody laughing or leaving. Everyone loved the product.

  31. Almost double what it should be... by Anonymous+Freak · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So, designing my own version of this system, I've got an Apple Xserve single-proc system with two 80GB hard drives (software RAID-1 for protection of the system,) a Combo Drive and Fibre Channel controller, plus an Xserve RAID maxed out with 5.6TB of space (4TB usable after making it a RAID-50 with hot spares.) This comes to just under $17,000. A few free programs, such as DVBackup or MacTheRipper, and I have the 'backup' capability. Add an Elgato System EyeHome, and voila! (Heck, if the EyeHome could control an EyeTV connected to the server, this setup would be a great DVR as well.)

    Or program your own custom interface that uses an iBook or iMac as the client. Add a computer-accessory IR remote, and you're all set.

    Total cost $17450 with an EyeHome, and two AirPort Express base stations (one connected to the server, one to the EyeHome, for wireless transmission.) Add $330 or $350 for an EyeTV (SD or HD, respectively.)

    Total cost $18190 with an iBook as playback/control and an AirPort Express to connect to the server, and a Keyspan Express Remote to control the iBook. (Custom interface software not provided, and would have to be written.) Again, add $330 or $350 for an EyeTV (which could be connected directly to the iBook, in this setup.)

    --
    Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
    The purpose of that site was not known.
    1. Re:Almost double what it should be... by Vegeta99 · · Score: 1

      Now call the DVDCCA and see how much it would cost you to license a CSS key.

      And Apple, to resell all the software.

    2. Re:Almost double what it should be... by Anonymous+Freak · · Score: 1

      I'll just sell it as a 'home media server'. If people want to use it to backup their DVDs, hey, I'm not responsible for their actions. (And reselling Apple is cheap.)

      --
      Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
      The purpose of that site was not known.
    3. Re:Almost double what it should be... by Vegeta99 · · Score: 1

      But what I'm saying is these people actually pay for the per-unit CSS license. I'd bet the DVDCCA is charging them out the ass to LEGALLY backup their DVDs, seeing as how DVDCCA's only reason for existance is to restrict end user's rights to Fair Use. With this license, I'm sure Kalidescape is exempted from responsibility of their customer's actions, but it seems that the DVDCCA thinks not. A court will have to decide that.

      If you're selling it as a 'home media server', it would not be capable of playing DVDs, well, legally anyway.

    4. Re:Almost double what it should be... by Anonymous+Freak · · Score: 1

      Actually, from the article, you SHOULDN'T be paying for a CSS license, as the DVDCCA seems to be interested in revoking their license.

      And didn't the courts already rule that the DVDCCA's position is untenable, and that there are legitimate 'fair use's for bypassing CSS? Now, as I didn't sign any agreement when I purchased my DVD, and there is no 'shrink-wrap agreement' or 'click-through agreement' in/on the DVD and its packaging, I have not agreed to any specific license with respect to the content of the DVD. It is my fair use right to use the content of the DVD in any form I wish, even in an alternate form (such as from a backed-up copy on my HD; as I can fairly do with my CD collection, which is in a boxed packed up in the attic, as the entire collection is on a HD in my computer. (i.e. The courts have ruled that anti-fair-use clauses in license agreements cannot be enforced. And I recall the courts ruling *FOR* "DVD Jon".)

      Sadly, Nintendo has a 'no-backup' license in their DS games. It specifically says that you do *NOT* have permission to makes a copy of a DS game for any reason at all. I don't know if this is now standard with game systems or not, but I know my GameBoy Advance games don't have such a clause in their manuals.

      --
      Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
      The purpose of that site was not known.
    5. Re:Almost double what it should be... by Vegeta99 · · Score: 1

      I don't believe the courts have said DVDCCA's purpose is patently illegal. It IS illegal to break a valid copyright protection method as per the DMCA, and CSS is a valid protection method (Encryption, access only by legal agreement). However, for PERSONAL "Fair Use", it seems to be the court's opinion one may break the protection, but I don't think a person selling something to automate it could get away with it. Wasn't that one small company that had DVD to VCD software sued out of existence? I'm not sure what a court's opinion in that situation would be, and I don't think we'll ever know, the media moguls will only come after those companies that are small enough that they can take out without risking a court setting judicial precident that isn't in their favor.

  32. Real problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    a few lazy nitwits renting movies from Blockbuster and making copies of them

    I'm going to post anonymously for obvious reasons.

    You are overlooking the fact that once enough common citizens have the capability to make perfect digital copies a revolution in the distribution of content is underway. These unauthorized reproducers of content have the power to liberate content from the distribution channels into which it is locked.

    Here's my real world example. I have been using several programs--DVDBackup, Miraizon's "Cinematize", DVD Studio Pro, and occasionally Nakasuji Associate's "MPEG Append"--to make full, lossless copies of DVD material. I get the original copyrighted material from my University library, but a public library would do.

    Now, I'm not redistributing these copies, yet. But in the future, when bandwidth is cheap and 7GB can be uploaded in say, 5 minutes, you can bet that someone like me is going to upload their cache. These movies are still copyrighted under the interminable Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act, but that Act means nothing when people can make perfect digital copies.

  33. Client price is really wacky! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Via Epia MII - $200
    Case & PS - $70
    128MB RAM - $50
    keyboard/mouse - $20

    HDD - none (netboot it)
    DVD - none (that's what the server is for)

    Total: $340

  34. Yeah... by the_skywise · · Score: 1

    And why do you think Microsoft wants to write their "secure" Bios? To make things "safer" for Linux and Windows users?

    Nope, to move the flash chip security from the software level to the hardware level and to stop all those evil Linux hacker people from using dd to copy their precious!

  35. Re:Yaeh but.. by Grayputer · · Score: 1

    --
    Am I supposed to feel sad because some stupid rapper asshat can't steel the movies anymore?
    --

    No you're supposed to feel bad because you don't know the difference between steel and steal.

  36. All college drop-outs, and Bill too by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 1

    OK, this is a bit of a generalisation, but how is it that the people with the money tend to be college drop out-types. Even Bill Gates who is/was the richest guy in the world dropped out. What do they do to our brains in there?

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:All college drop-outs, and Bill too by corbettw · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Here's a partial list of famous (and rich) college dropouts.

      Computers:
      Bill Gates (Microsoft) dropped out of Harvard, 1976
      Steve Jobs (Apple, NeXT, Pixar) left Reed College in Portland, Oregon, after 1 semester
      Steve Wozniak (with Jobs, founded Apple Computer)
      Lawrence Ellison (Oracle Computer)
      Michael Dell (Dell Computer) dropped out of the University of Texas

      Other Business:
      David Geffen (Geffen Records, Dreamworks SKG) flunked out of University of Texas, Austin, AND Brooklyn College, NY
      H Wayne Huizenga (Blockbuster Video millionaire, owner of Miami Dolphins, Florida Panthers and Florida Marlins) attended Calvin College, Grand Rapids, Michigan, for 3 semesters
      Ted Turner (media mogul) -kicked out, I hear!
      Ron Popeil (tv huckster, RONCO)
      William Hanna (Hanna-Barbera)

      To see the complete list, go to http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/7734/cdoaa.ht ml. Well, it's not complete, in that not everyone who ever dropped out of college is on there, but you'll be surprised by who is!

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    2. Re:All college drop-outs, and Bill too by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      "Here's a partial list of famous (and rich) college dropouts."

      You left out Karl Rove, who is basically ruling the world right now as the puppeteer of the most powerful government in history.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    3. Re:All college drop-outs, and Bill too by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Of course, they were all smart or affluent enough to get in in the first place, which is arguably the hardest part of a college education in the US. Not to mention, it's far less surprising to see how many successful people DID go to college.

    4. Re:All college drop-outs, and Bill too by corbettw · · Score: 1

      You left out Karl Rove, who is basically ruling the world right now as the puppeteer of the most powerful government in history.

      Well, the site I quoted left him out. If you go there, there's a submission link you can use to get him added.

      Leaving aside your comment about him being a "puppeteer", it is interesting that someone in his position is a college dropout. I wonder how many other major politicians are?

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    5. Re:All college drop-outs, and Bill too by corbettw · · Score: 1

      Not to mention, it's far less surprising to see how many successful people DID go to college.

      All it means is, college can help you be successful, but the lack of it doesn't mean you absolutely cannot be. It'll just take more [money|time|effort], that's all.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
  37. Do I have to say it again? by lucason · · Score: 1

    Roll your own with Myth TV

    I rip all my DVD's to disk. Sure I don't have 3.3 TB, but I do rip tot Xvid onto 3 250Mb disks (0.75TB) So I guess I can store more video. HA!

    Cost? less than 300$ (not counting the surpluss PC)

    $29k? That's just stupid!

    1. Re:Do I have to say it again? by PhraudulentOne · · Score: 1

      I assume you meant 250GB drives. Also, you can't make anything NEAR this device for anywhere NEAR $300. This thing can store several TB in hot-swappables drive in a redundant configuration so data loss is unlikely. The box does the ripping for you, organizing for you, sharing for you, has a built-in menu system, has decent audio outputs (HDMI, Coax digital (BNC), Optical digital (TosLink(TM)), Analog stereo (2xRCA)) etc. Your PC has no protection, or maybe RAID which means your not using all 750GB anyway (and by the way, thats only half the space of the default config of this box) I don't know where you got 3 250GB drives for $300, let alone a whole system + the drives for less than $300, but I'm pretty sure your fibbing or your parents bought it for you. These things also look great, are quiet, actually look like home theatre equipment (it's damn sexy!) and not a shoddy PC crammed into the media console under your TV. Ofcourse this is worth no where near $27k, but its definately a FAR FAR FAR better solution than your $300 fake response. Buhbye.

      --
      You create your own reality - Leave mine to me.
    2. Re:Do I have to say it again? by lucason · · Score: 1

      Like I said, not counting the spare PC.

      I'm not gonna stand here saying I probably wouldn't rather have $27k to burn, but lets assume for a second that I don't.

      As I said before though, looks and sound are not important. Stick your PC in a different room, or in my case on a different floor and use RF equipment to send the video to the TV. (it 'll run you about 50 bucks)

      P.S. I just checked the price. One HD 200 GB WD. 7200T 8M , 98,72 EUR
      I just assumed US prices were lower. No?
      Ok, so if you don't have some disks to spare you'll probably end up spending a bit more than 300$ BooHoo. I've still spent 26.700$ less.

    3. Re:Do I have to say it again? by Vegeta99 · · Score: 1

      SO your $300 box gives EXTREMELY shitty quality compared to this $27k box. One of those little X10 video transmitters? There's some high quality stuff.

  38. Don't give them ideas... by the_skywise · · Score: 1

    I can foresee a day in the near future where CVS logs are used as court records to go after infringers...

  39. Kaleidescape by norminator · · Score: 1

    The Kaleidescape is simply awesome. I've set one up and used it a few times, and it's incredible. The interface is so smooth, easy and fun to use, it's just a really cool DVD system. Paired with a high-end Vantage, Crestron, or AMX touchscreen for control, it has got to be the best movie experience around.

    It does skip the ads on the disc, and allows you to go straight to the movie, but it also lets you navigate through the DVD menus.

    I think this lawsuit is a load of crap, because the copy made of the disc is an exact copy, it doesn't store a decrypted version, the decryption happens all within the player at the other end of the network, just like a normal DVD player. Also, not that it couldn't be hacked, but the server doesn't provide any way to get into it's file system from the network to get at the stored copies.

    This could potentially be used to *steal* copies of a friends DVD or of a rented movie, but, as mentioned by others already, the people that would use this aren't the type to steal movies, or even to borrow or rent movies. It would be a pity and a shame to see the DVD industry come down on such an incredibly well-built and useful product.

  40. Mozilla style funding? by CrackedButter · · Score: 1

    Pity we couldn't help the little guy in this case, merely just to help them win and set a precedent, whether or not you like (or afford) their business model.

    1. Re:Mozilla style funding? by Saeed+al-Sahaf · · Score: 1

      Because as we all know, the "little guy" owns a $27k RAID....

      --
      "Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
  41. Yes, $27,000 for a 3.3TB system by norminator · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I don't think the parent understands the market for this device. Products that are engineered for the high-end market don't use off the shelf hardware, and they have major hardware and software engineering that goes into them. Everything from the UI to the Audio and Video Hardware to the network protocols has had many many hours of research, design and testing. This is much more than a Dell PC that shares movies to other Dells. Plus, the people who are willing to buy this kind of system aren't the Slashdot-do-it-yourself types who will spend hours screwing around with kernels and config files and daemons and everything. These people just pay their A/V dealers to take the thing out of the box, plug it into the network, and turn it on. That's all it takes, and it works! I've set this one up before, and it is that easy, because the product is engineered to death at the factory, not in some /.er's basement lab. And don't forget that this is designed to be controlled by super high-end home automation systems, like 15" Crestron touchscreens, that also control everything else in the house.

    There's a whole hgh-end electronics world that most of the /. crowd will never understand, who will always say "Why would someone pay for that when I could build it?" The answer is, because it's already built much better, it's easier to use, and they have the $$$.

  42. Going off the Deep End by Yartrebo · · Score: 1

    I must wonder, what is the movie industry thinking with this lawsuit. This device is their friend. Anybody with $27K to blow on a device is going to be buying legit anyway (except perhaps when it can't be bought at any price, but that's their fault there) and having such a device will induce them to buy even more DVDs.

    The company has taken big steps to make copying hard and they appear to be in compliance with the license.

    Suing them is going to both directly reduce sales, piss off a lot of hollywood people (who are supposed to benefit from copyrights according to the MPAA), and will hurt their credibility in legal circuits and the court of public opinion. Oh, and assuming it actually went to court, they would lose.

  43. Pix and comments at LIVEdigitally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    More coverage on the topic at LIVEdigitally, including pictures. Click here to read (http://www.livedigitally.com/2004/12/hollywood-su es-their-only-friend.html)

  44. Precedence and crap by norminator · · Score: 1

    If someone wanted to buy one of these to make copies of rented or borrowed movies, It's not going to work... At $27000 (you'd have to spend more to actually get one that would hold the maximum number of DVDs), and at $20/DVD, you'd have to *steal* 1350 DVDs to break even. The system doesn't hold nearly that many DVDs.

    I know this is all about precedence and the "someday there will be cheaper systems that do this", but come on. This system does not INDUCE copyright violation. It does not make copyright violation cost effective. It does not make it possible to share a DVD with other users in different homes. Far from it. The DVDCCA needs to do the math themselves, then realize that the only decryption that ever happens is in the player unit itself, so there's no way to get a copy of the decrypted data.

  45. Remember mp3.com by dunng808 · · Score: 1
    I think that the RIAA reacted pretty much the same way when mp3.com started copying vast amounts of CD content onto their servers. The plan was to allow customers to download mp3 versions of a CD they just purchased, while waiting for the genuine CD to arrive by mail. I thought it was brilliant, and complied with the intent of copyright law. The RIAA could not see past the unauthorized copying part. Well, Michael Robertson's brazen attitude may have had something to do with it.

    Could there be a similarity? Robertson boasted about the end of the retail record industry as we know it, and these guys bring out an absurdly expensive machine. Attention getters? Is there an ego at work here? Perhaps success will be won by coming in low and slow.

    --

    Gary Dunn
    Open Slate Project

  46. Uhhh... one problem by poptones · · Score: 1

    Don't get the license, you don't have access to css disks.. which is pretty much every mainstream movie.

    No license, no product.

    1. Re:Uhhh... one problem by tepples · · Score: 1

      Don't get the license, you don't have access to css disks

      "Fuck you; I'm using DeCSS." No contract with the DVDCCA; no way for a particular copyright owner to distinguish DeCSS players from CSS-licensed players, which is a pre-requisite to any DMCA suit. Or can the MPAA compel DVDCCA to disclose its licensee list?

    2. Re:Uhhh... one problem by poptones · · Score: 1

      [i]"Fuck you; I'm using DeCSS."[/i]
      "Fuck you; I'm suing you for patent infringement..."

      In order to include decss in your product you have to be licensed. They do not HAVE to license you at ANY cost - if you have a patent it's your call whether or not to allow others to use it.

      You can make a DVD player without involvement of the dvdcca, but without the ability to play encrypted discs (ie just about every hollywood movie) you're not going to find many customers for your $30k "high end" product.

    3. Re:Uhhh... one problem by jtev · · Score: 1

      Not realy. There is no patent on CSS. If there were it would be publicly published, and you could see it just by requesting the patent to see if they infringed on any of YOUR patents, and so that you don't infringe on it. It's a trade secret and only proteced by the DMCA because it's a "copy prevention measure" which until the DMCA were not at all protected, only the act of copying and distributing copyrighted works were. Now if you want to bring up the DMCA that's a totaly different ball of wax, but there is not patent infringment to deal with.

      --
      That which is done from love exists beyond good and evil
    4. Re:Uhhh... one problem by Curtman · · Score: 1

      In order to include decss in your product you have to be licensed. ... You can make a DVD player without involvement of the dvdcca, but without the ability to play encrypted discs

      Who says DeCSS is the only option? DeCSS used keys ripped out of a licensed player, and that is what they were sued for. There are other ways to decrypt CSS.

    5. Re:Uhhh... one problem by NutscrapeSucks · · Score: 1

      > Not realy. There is no patent on CSS.

      Yes, but the rest of the DVD system is covered by a million patents. And the only way to get a licence is to agree to include CSS.

      IP Licencing is the largest cost that goes into a DVD player. Anyone trying to avoid the DVDCCA would be facing down either a hugely expensive patent lawsuit or a contract suit like the company in the story.

      --
      Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
    6. Re:Uhhh... one problem by poptones · · Score: 1

      Who says DeCSS is the only option? DeCSS used keys ripped out of a licensed player, and that is what they were sued for. There are other ways to decrypt CSS.

      Not without getting called into court for DMCA violations.

      So, would you rather be sued, or prosecuted by the feds?

      No cca license, no dvd player. You can hack together as many unlicensed players as you like in your garage, but that's not likely to put food on the table.

    7. Re:Uhhh... one problem by Curtman · · Score: 1

      Not without getting called into court for DMCA violations.

      That law doesn't apply outside of the US.

      No cca license, no dvd player.

      I have an unlicensed dvd player now, what the fuck are you talking about?

    8. Re:Uhhh... one problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No need to. Just buy a computer dvd-rom drive. All licenses included. No obligations to dvdcca. Connect to embedded computer with VideoLAN client or some other gpl mpeg2 media playback software. Resell however. DVD player. No cca license.

  47. ha ha ha by finipi · · Score: 1

    I have no sympathy for someone who gets sued if they are gluttonous enough to spend $27K on a bunch of hard drives with blue lights on the front!

  48. Just convenience by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    At that price level, we are talking people with tons of disposable income. They may alrady have $50k-$100k AV rooms. It's just a nice, convenient toy that lets them easily keep all their movies in one spot and get at them easily.

    Could you DIY for less? Of course, that's not the target market.

  49. Oh Baby! by iminplaya · · Score: 2, Funny

    Keep these lawsuits coming! I mean it. We'll be back to using stone tablets in no time, and only authorized rocksmiths will be allowed to distribute them to gov't approved customers only. Plus you will be required to register your hammer and chisel with your local publisher. Purchasing any of these tools of mass infringement(TMI's) will require a thrity day cooling off period. Anything that helps the general population understand the folly(tragedy really) of copyright can only help get this kind of corruption off the books, and maybe, if enough people wake up to what's happening, they actually vote some reasonable people into office. Yeah, riiiight! (Insert diety here) help us all.

    --
    What?
  50. Re:Protecting myself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Network Appliance Filer? IBM TotalStorage Rack?
    EMC?

  51. Getting sued as well they should... by Eric+Damron · · Score: 2, Funny

    This product will have millions of people buying it for $27,000.00 in order to rip off the next big movie hit that comes out on a $15.00 DVD!

    --
    The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
  52. Re:Jabberkatz(tm) Is Back by Dahan · · Score: 1

    <3 Jabberkatz. +1 Insightful!

  53. I've seen this device demoed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have seen an excellent demonstration of the Kaliedescape system, this thing lets you set "bookmarks" anywhere in any movie. you can set up playlists of these bookmarks.

    you can watch parts of 3-4 movies, back to back with little more than a quick fade to black and back. you can skip the fbi/interpol warnings and upfront ads

    this system also has an elaborate, well designed, and very nicely implemented GUI.

    you can even set up a login so that kids can log in and have access the parents deem appropriate..totally seamless.

    as far as the $27,000 pricetag, that's nothing.

    we were watching this demo on a $130,000 Runco DLP projector on a 14' (foot) wide screen (that's just the width, at 2.35 aspect ratio)

    I agree that this will only anger the studios' most loyal customers.

    Fair Use still means something, Hollywood will never learn untill they get hit with a huge countersuit (and lose)

    the raid server also communicates with the Kaleidescape servers to retrieve the latest cover art, as well as allowing the company to know if you have suffered a drive failure. Then all they need to do is have your local dealer come by with a replacement drive.

    You may have never known a drive died untill your dealer calls with a new hdd for you

    go Kaleidescape!

  54. So who failed to read the License agreement? by Tired+and+Emotional · · Score: 1
    This company has spent a bucket of bucks to produce this system.

    At the same time, the licensor clearly intended that this sort of use not be permitted by the license.

    So either the licensee failed to read the license correctly, or the licensor failed to write a license agreement that met their objectives.

    If it turns out to be the licensor who goofed, I wonder if the system then becomes illegal because it is a restraint of trade that does not meet any valid business purpose?

    In any case, this will be a case worth watching.

    --
    Squirrel!
  55. who knew we'd come back to this one by emkman · · Score: 1

    Well, I guess I was wrong. Apparently the DVDCCA won't let anyone make a product enabling fair use of dvd's, even if they do pay for a license and player key.

    --
    Moderation Totals: Flamebait=2, Troll=1, Redundant=1, Insightful=6, Overrated=1, Underrated=1, Total=12. (not mine)
  56. Let me interpret something for you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Also, the company decided to design the OS from scratch! Linux would be perfect for something like this, but nope, they said they've spent years developing a proprietary OS specifically for this unit. Stupid decision"

    They're using Linux, but they don't want to abide by the GPL. So they claim they developed their own OS. Impossible. Or rather, very unlikely.

    Think it through for a moment.

  57. Cat5 by norminator · · Score: 1

    In this case, the CAT5 is refering to a standard 100 BaseT IP network. I don't know much about their protocol, but I would think it shouldn't have to be encrypted or anything... the only thing being transmitted is the already encrypted data that's on the DVD. It's not making a copy of the DVD across the network (except when you first import a disc, and even then, it's just going to one place where it can't be shared with any non-Kaleidescape computer).

    Playing a movie asynchronously in two locations is possible with the Kaleidescape, and be on the fringes of legality, put that's not what the DVDCCA is up in arms about. Their complaining about the "the wholesale copying of protected DVDs". Wholesale is hardly the word to describe it. This doesn't make DVDs available on a peer to peer network or in any other way to the rest of the Internet. It doesn't even make them available to any non-Kaleidescape devices. The decryption doesn't happen until the data gets to the player unit, just like any other DVD player, so this doesn't make copying a DVD any more feasible than any PC with a DVD-ROM drive. The DVDCCA needs to look at exactly what the Kaleidescape does and what it doesn't do, instead of freaking out because *Oh my gosh!* something gets copied.

  58. lack of media? by peccary · · Score: 1

    So the problem is simply that the right media (truly virgin DVD-Rs with a writeable space where the keys go) is not manufactured and sold?

    What's stopping that? Is there some law preventing the manufacture of not-broken DVDRs?

    1. Re:lack of media? by atrus · · Score: 1

      As I understand it, yes. There is no law, but to license various DVD related patents, this is one of the catches.

  59. Data please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Ultimately, these stupid efforts at control cost the studios a lot more than they could ever gain from it, but this is what happens when a business is run "by the numbers" with no regard for the customers.

    I don't understand what is more important than "the numbers" if one of those numbers is profit. If you have some statistics that say that the studios' effort at control actually have cost the studios a lot more than they could ever gain from it, I want to see the statistics about how much profit they've lost and how much profit they could ever gain from it. If you don't have those numbers, then by posting that sentence you are just making stuff up, which anybody with any belief on any subject can do.

  60. You don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can't _legally_ use DeCSS without a license from the DVDCCA. Yes it is possible, but you apparently care about the legality otherwise you wouldn't be talking about avoiding patent infringement.

    If you want to be legal: you're screwed... you have to go through the DVDCCA.
    If you don't care: then copyrights, patents, DMCA, contracts, trade secretes, etc. don't matter.

    The DeCSS program was found to not to be an illegal disclosure of the DVDCCA's trade secrets. It was _no_ found to be a legal circumvention of the CSS algorithm. Because of the DMCA you have no choice but to get permission to decrypt the disk even if you already know how and even have code to do it. The DVDCCA will only allow you to get permission if you buy a CSS license and that means signing a contract with them.

    I believe that sums up the issue. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    1. Re:You don't get it by jtev · · Score: 1

      All I was poiting out what what law was being violated. Once again Decss doesn't violate the patents, and depending on how the supreme court views the DMCA might not be illegal after all. This also means that it's only illegal in the US.

      --
      That which is done from love exists beyond good and evil
  61. To the CSS guys by MunchMunch · · Score: 1
    As a blanket response to all those who have responded--thanks for pointing out the primary purpose of CSS, which I had indeed blanked on. While I don't contest that compared to each of your answers my own comment is at worst misleading and at best incomplete, I am curious how CSS can't be considered the primary DRM DVDs have.

    I had always thought CSS served the dual purpose of scrambling the DVD to prevent unauthorized copying (end-user) *and* playback (manufacturer). Let's not revise history and forget that because we have DVD burners and P2P capable of DVD-sharing now that it was so when the CSS was developed. When DVDs first arrived, there were no DVD burners and it would have seemed absurd for anyone to transfer the whole DVD on P2P--having an iron lock on manufacturers also meant having an iron lock on consumers, and in case anyone were to break that, contract law could be used on the manufacturers and the DMCA could be used on the end-users.

    The biggest example of the latter 'iron lock' and what it meant to Hollywood? Off the top of my head, how about the MPAA going after Jon Johansen for playing a DVD on Linux and the subsequent DMCA-blocking of 2600's link to DeCSS?