Bosses Keep Sharp Eye on Mobile Workers

camusflage writes "AP is running a story on the penetration of GPS devices and monitoring of fleet operations. Such technology is hitting the mainstream, with UPS distributing 100,000 GPS-enabled handhelds 'to alert them when they're at the wrong address.' One driver is quoted saying, 'It's kind of like Big Brother is watching a little bit. But it's where we're heading in this society.' Needless to say, the Teamsters weigh in on the negative side on the whole thing."

Comments

If you're on the clock..

[dustinbarbour]

..then you need to be doing only business related tasks. That is unless you have an understanding with your employer. Period. Kaput. Nothing else to see here.. yadi yadi yada.

Re:If you're on the clock..

[stupidfoo]

Notice who posted this? Michael of course. Another big business is bad, poor little employees. Oh, and lets look to the our uncorrupt and pure friends at the Teamsters union for comfort and help.

Why shouldn't a company be able to know where their truck and equipment and products are?

Like another poster said, it's not as if they're tracking their employees when they're at home.

Re:If you're on the clock..

[Anonymous Coward]

a copyright thief would be someone who steals your copyright. T

That really can happen, occasionally (_copyrights themselves_ act somewhat like physical property, but the information pattern covered by copyright, well, doesn't - this leads to no end of lawyers and normal humans talking at cross-purposes), but copyright-infringement is not theft.

Re:If you're on the clock..

[Anonymous Coward]

The Teamsters Union is a very nice organization.

--Jimmy Hoffa

Re:If you're on the clock..

[SerpentMage]

Hmm, interesting question. Ok, so lets say that you are driving. You delivered five packages out of fifteen. The first five packages took most of the morning. Because of where the packages are delivered you decide to take an early lunch because there is a restaurant you like. Then after lunch you deliver most of the packages. Here's the question because you took an early lunch does not mean you are not doing your job.

Here is another example, you are very efficient at your job, and because of it can take a long lunch hour. Your boss realizes this and decides to give you more packages than somebody who is slower. However, instead of increasing your pay you just get more packages. Is that fair?

My point is that I don't agree with the big brother, and I don't think the teamsters are much better. But it does not give a company the right to watch your every move.

I find many people very hypocritical in this aspect. Especially managers and IT people. Imagine you were tracked like a UPS agent? Imagine your boss installing applications to see how much code you write per hour and minute. Imagine your boss watching your every click on the computer? Would you buy into that?

Yet it is OK to for UPS to watch THEIR trucks and equipment. The problem with these attitudes is that does not work. You cannot control people and expect efficiency. Control results in resentment because pure numerical facts are used to judge whether or not an individual is doing their job.
Humans are not robots, as there are always circumstances.

Re:If you're on the clock..

[lottameez]

The problem with these attitudes is that does not work. You cannot control people and expect efficiency.

Um, sorry, but no. The truth is exactly the opposite of what you claim. Accountability, at all levels of an organization, inevitably leads to higher efficiency and increased productivity. I've seen it with mine own eyes over and over again.

Another note: In both of your fictional cases, you assume that the driver is getting measured based on time spent working - that would be the wrong approach IMO - the "right" approach would be to measure the individual based on packages delivered, or time to deliver - in this case the GPS means nothing to management other than insuring that a) the driver isn't lost, and b)the good name of UPS isn't parked outside the local strip joint.

Finally, I agree wholeheartedly with your last point - humans are not robots, and there are often other circumstances - but that should not preclude giving managers the tools to they need to manage.

Re:If you're on the clock..

[Anonymous Coward]

If you think that fair means that someone who does more or better work should get more money then you do not want anything to do with a union. I worked my way through college as an electrician. I was reprimanded on more than one occasion for working too fast. I was a better electrician than some of the more senior guys, but I could not get my masters electrician liscense because the union controls who can get them and I was not senior enough. They only allow so many in an area.

Re:If you're on the clock..

[Anonymous Coward]

You like to complain about how big brother is controlling you and how bad it is. Meanwhile you have never been on the employer's side of things. I have and I know how employees are your biggest loss, weather its theft or stealing time they always want more to do less. I am sick of the typical /. whiner crying about how the big corporate employers are always fucking the little guy meanwhile it's the little guy who always is the one trying to get one over the employer. It also doesn't matter if the business is big or small, most employees don't give a shit about the employeer they just want money and more of it. In a business you have to make ends meet and that means shelling out tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in utility bills, insurances and taxes per year. The typical whiney employee only has to show up and do his/her job. They have no responsibilities outside of what there job is. They don't have to deal with demanding customers, bills out the ass and the stress that can take a toll on ones physical health.

It's the companies right to track there employees productivity whether you like it or not. If you're so damn paranoid about them watching your productivity then maybe you're not doing what you are supposed to do. Sure there are bosses who might try to abuse there employees, but what percentage of them will?

I know I will be flamed for this and so be it. Unless you have been the employer putting up with employee bullshit then I don't want to hear it. Most people on this damn sight are either too young or too damn lazy to comprehend what goes on beyond there simple job.

Re:If you're on the clock..

[gcaseye6677]

You weren't at work when you made this post, right?

Re:If you're on the clock..

[IchBinEinPenguin]

like the understanduing you have with your boss, reading /. on company time?

There is (supposed to be) such a thing as trust. If you can't trust your employees without watching them all the time then a little lost time is the least of your problems.

Sure, in some targeted cases, do the monitoring to back up a hunch that someone is goofing off too much, but don't monitor everyone all the time just in case someone sometime might be abusing your trust.

oh what am I talking about, this isn't surveilance for the sake of surveilance, it's got something to do with terrorists, or protecting children, or catching pirates.... Sorry, just ignore what I said.

Re:If you're on the clock..

[ErikZ]

"Here is another example, you are very efficient at your job, and because of it can take a long lunch hour. Your boss realizes this and decides to give you more packages than somebody who is slower. However, instead of increasing your pay you just get more packages. Is that fair?"

You can program twice as fast as the next guy, so they give you twice as much work at the same wage.

Fair or not, it seems normal to me.

Re:If you're on the clock..

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is another example, you are very efficient at your job, and because of it can take a long lunch hour. Your boss realizes this and decides to give you more packages than somebody who is slower. However, instead of increasing your pay you just get more packages. Is that fair?

It's probably safe to assume that someone could derive some sort of normalization for #packages delivered vs # of locations delivered vs miles driven on route.

Given this, if driver A's "equity" ratio is lower than the busier, more active, driver B's ratio, and driver A gets the big fat christmas bonus of $25 while driver B gets the Fruit of the Month Club membership, with the first month free, then it's not a very equitable situation, even if Driver B is Clark Griswald and driver A is Paris Hilton.

(fictional useless person vs real-life, vapid person).

At least for UPS, they've got their route metrics figured out. It's up to the driver and loaders on whether the driver gets his route done between 7am and 4pm. If he goes over, yes, he gets paid. If he goes over too much, he's not a driver anymore. There are also probably allowances granted for getting stuck on a highway that's closed due to a nasty car crash or bridge washout, too.

The company knows what the powderpuff and shitty routes are as well, and they're doled out accordingly...

Re:If you're on the clock..

[reso]

"in this case the GPS means nothing to management other than insuring that a) the driver isn't lost, and b)the good name of UPS isn't parked outside the local strip join"

my mom says that she never sees any Fedex or UPS uniforms in the strip joint/brothel that she works in. she does see a lot of middle-management though taking 2 hour lunches.

"the good name of UPS"

Yes, yes, god forbid they soil themselves in the dirty pleasures of drink and loose men/women--insert national anthem

Re:If you're on the clock..

[roedb]

haha, your all killing me here. Simply put, We're talking about a delivery company having a device that might make "delivery" of Your package more efficient. hmmm, delivery - GPS, I see a totally reasonable equation there. Common teamsters, find something legit to bitch about. This is Tard!

Re:If you're on the clock..

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is another example, you are very efficient at your job, and because of it can take a long lunch hour. Your boss realizes this and decides to give you more packages than somebody who is slower. However, instead of increasing your pay you just get more packages. Is that fair?

Considering 90% of the delivery is driving two and from destinations, and maybe 8% is waiting for customers to sign off. If a driver is that much faster than his co-workers he is likely speeding and violating other traffic laws. Taking an early lunch is likely only an issue if a driver is failing to deliver on promised delivery times. Beyond that its not in their best interest to harrass drivers for taking a long lunch, etc. They are the professional core of the company, the public face of the company, etc. However, they do occasionally deliver packages to the wrong location (I was on the receiving end once), or they need to locate a truck that has an important package.

Re:If you're on the clock..

[Anonymous Coward]

Posted anonymously for obvious reason, the GPS units are not used to measure performance. There are plenty of other indices in use that do not relate to specific physical location. In fact, most of the indices relate packages delivered/picked up to a time cost. Lunches are standardized at 1 hour, with breaks as required by Federal Department of Transportation rules. Milege is tracked per vehicle, not per driver.

This has nothing to do with big brothering the drivers, and everything to do with making sure your package reaches you in a timely and accurate manner. The most common problem in delivering to residential areas is the growth. New addresses are added constantly, and the Post Office issues new Zip codes quarterly. Often, a package has to first be address corrected, and then delivered to a new, unfamiliar area. Also, especially near the holidays, a lot of new people are on the road delivering packages. They do not have long experiance with the area, and quite often are entirely new to the routes.

To be quite honest, tracking the specific position of a driver is trivial, and requires no technology. Since the delivery and pickup stops are pre dispatched, a phone call is sufficient to verify "Has your UPS person made their pickup?"

UPS uses a variety of technologies, from wireless to cellular, and all of them are geared at accurate delivery and accountability fot the package.

You may now resume your normal tinfoil hattage.

Re:If you're on the clock..

[LordNimon]

Here's the question because you took an early lunch does not mean you are not doing your job.

That's for your boss to decide, not you. In some jobs, the lunch break is only allowed at certain times. What if that sixth package is supposed to be delivered before noon, and because of your early lunch, it was late.

Most bosses are reasonable and provide some flexibility to their employees. But if you don't like your boss, then you should quit.

Here is another example, you are very efficient at your job, and because of it can take a long lunch hour. Your boss realizes this and decides to give you more packages than somebody who is slower. However, instead of increasing your pay you just get more packages. Is that fair?

No, but so what? If you really are twice as efficient, then you can probably talk your boss into giving you a raise, or some other benefit. If not, quit and work for the competition. If you really are twice as efficient as all your co-workers, then you will get rewarded for it, somehow.

You're making up hypothetical examples with no evidence that they have any bearing on real life. Not only that, but comparing a UPS driver to a programmer is ridiculous. A UPS has a very simple task: deliver packages. There is no creativity and very little variation.

Re:If you're on the clock..

[macshit]

Finally, I agree wholeheartedly with your last point - humans are not robots, and there are often other circumstances - but that should not preclude giving managers the tools to they need to manage.

But I think very often it has nothing to do with "the need to manage", but rather with the need for managers to feel that they're doing something, even when it's actually counter-productive for the company as a whole (though it can be in the manager's best interest by giving him something to cover his ass with -- "I implemented a plan to improve employee efficiency by nailing them to the floor; inspiring slogans will maintain morale!").

Of course sometimes it's also just that the manager is an insane control freak.

Re:If you're on the clock..

[johannesg]

I hate that "employers are God" attitude that a lot of people here seem to have. An employment contract is an agreement between two people - work for money, nothing more. It doesn't turn the employer into a robot or a slave for the duration of the hours worked, he remains a human being with the needs and rights such an entity possesses.

Would you agree to being tracked from second to second in YOUR job? If not, what makes you think you are so much more deserving of human dignity than the people affected by this? Would you like to answer questions regarding the duration or frequency of bathroom breaks? Length of time spent in front of a traffic light ("were you out for a sandwich by any chance?")? Time spent at a customer ("longer than 5 minutes? Do you have a girlfriend there or something?")?

Your remark wrt. programmer creativity is interesting as well. I have no idea if you have any clue how programmers are perceived by much of management, but think "interchangeable warm body that we can outsource to India at a whim" and you'll be close. Creativity? Variation? Get real, he is there to type in a pre-defined specification. Anyone can do that, and it is the exact same job every single day.

Re:If you're on the clock..

[Prothonotar]

"These systems could be used to unfairly discipline drivers, for counting every minute that they might or might not be on or off duty and holding that against them," said Galen Munroe, a Teamsters spokesman.

OMG they might hold against them for engaging in non-business related activities while being paid per time? What is this world coming to?!

Glen: if it really bothers you that much, petition to get companies to stop paying per hour/mile.

Re:If you're on the clock..

[the grace of R'hllor]

That is a culture related statement. Frex, I do believe in working extra hours to help the employer out, but I also believe in direct compensation for that (either mo' money, or more holiday days). I don't believe my employer has any say whatsoever over me in my own time, while some people do. These things are not black and white.

My personal view, though: As long as you don't cost too much detouring, and performing the tasks you're assigned, who cares? On the other hand, if detouring does cause you to neglect your job, or costs the company a significant amount, you deserve everything you get.

Monitoring should be done. It's a good thing. But some understanding from the boss' end should be forthcoming, if 'transgressions' are kept within limits.

Re:If you're on the clock..

[Anonymous Coward]

Alot of companies track what their employees are doing in order to measure how they are performing. Your Company may track the websites you go to so you don't look at pron or read slashdot all day instead of working. If you are in a call center they will keep track of the number of calls you take and how long each call is. What is the problem with the company knowing where its trucks are? If you do not agree with what they are doing, you are free to find another job or start your own business. You must read a differ /. than I do, because I see alot of "workers of the world unite".

Re:If you're on the clock..

[mshurpik]

Instead of worrying about whos on the clock or whatever, I have a better idea. The parcel service fleet can become GPS-enabled Asimo robots riding on the backs of hungry Mexican laborers.

Think of the savings. No more drivers, managers, cafeteria workers, truck mechanics, human resources staff. Just a couple guys from Sony and some beefy guys whipping the mexicans.

In the end, Big Brown saves money, which means YOU can have a better life.....

...as an ex-UPS driver checking the want ads!

Re:If you're on the clock..

[American_Idiot]

I have to agree with lottameez. I am in an IT shop in the military and we are watched only by our progress, logins, report times, appointments, even at home if you live on the base. So it's not much.

Rule 1: There is no Fight Club
Rule 2: If you don't want to be watched or monitored while you are at work then go into business for yourself.

Every corporate workplace has some sort of workcenter or employee monitoring device or program implemented.

Re:If you're on the clock..

[palerider]

>> "I have and I know how employees are your biggest loss, weather its theft or stealing time they always want more to do less."

Wow, I think I used to work for you, that is, before your sleazy company went bankrupt because you treated your employees like shit.

It's no wonder you're bitter, you whine that employees don't give a shit, and yet, you fail to realize that you've started the process, by not giving a shit about them, treating your greatest asset as a liability, and not having a clue... Each of those *PEOPLE* has their own problems, bills, bitchy demanding 'customers' (ie, YOU) and stress that YOU'RE causing them, to make them sick.

You whine about having to pay bills, and insurance, and taxes, and ... gosh, every single one of your employees has the same problem.

Maybe you'd still be in business if you'd been smart enough to realize that your employees are your biggest asset, the *ONLY* thing that keeps your company running, as you nickle and dime them to death, and bitch about how much they cost.... If they're so much of a bad investment, get rid of 'em and do all the work yourself... save that expense.

If not, then shut the fuck up and treat them like people, and like your greatest asset in your business, and maybe you'll find that they take pride in what they do, and the company they work for, and the quality of job they do.

Oh, and learn the difference in "there" and "their"... damn borderline illiterate bosses.

Re:If you're on the clock..

[BrokenHalo]

Accountability, at all levels of an organization, inevitably leads to higher efficiency and increased productivity.

On what planet do you live? A classic example of the folly of this argument is the issue of accountability re. public servants' travel.

Here in Australia, public servants are required to make bookings with airlines at grossly inflated (usually by 400%) fares purely because under the regulations the fare has to be refundable in the event of the person pulling a no-show.

It seems to me that accountability is only applied at the echelons of an organisation which actually perform any useful work. Nobody ever seems to require the senior management to be accountable.

Re:If you're on the clock..

[BrokenHalo]

and I know how employees are your biggest loss...

Err... Without your employees, (unless you work for yourself) you don't have a business. Therefore, your employees are probably your biggest asset.

If you treat them as a liability, you deserve to be well and truly fucked over.

Re:If you're on the clock..

[LaCosaNostradamus]

So says the office dweeb who doesn't think this is a problem until his own company docks him for going to the bathroom to piss, or going to the coffee shop for a couple of minutes.

Tracking people is not a real problem until the management decides to use it as another control-freak tool over an above the obvious and dutiful use of stopping time theft. In terms of anecdotes: We DO need to identify and stop drivers who pull over and sleep on "company time"; but we DON'T need to dock a driver for stopping by the Quickie Mart to pick up a coffee for the road.

Re:If you're on the clock..

[LordNimon]

Your remark wrt. programmer creativity is interesting as well. I have no idea if you have any clue how programmers are perceived by much of management, but think "interchangeable warm body that we can outsource to India at a whim" and you'll be close. Creativity? Variation? Get real, he is there to type in a pre-defined specification. Anyone can do that, and it is the exact same job every single day.

Obviously, you have never worked at any of the companies I've worked at. I have never been treated poorly, and my manager doesn't think I'm an interchangeable warm body.

If my boss wants to track my every movement, he'll get bored very quickly, since whenever I'm on the clock, I'm either at my cubicle or in the lab, both of which are within 50 feet of his office.

If my job were to deliver packages throughout town all day long, then I would expect to be tracked, because that's how my performance is measured. As a software developer, my performance is not measures in lines of code per hour. It's measured on a wide variety of factors, all of which result in a contribution to my company's needs.

I'm sorry that your work experience has been so sour that you think all managers care what every employee is doing every minute of every day. I've never met a manager like that.

As long as its just at work

[Anonymous Coward]

And not a off-hours thing, then I don't see a problem. If you don't like the policies, find a job elsewhere.

Re:As long as its just at work

[Skye16]

Or bitch about them and hope against hope the powers-that-be change their mind instead of firing you. Of course it isn't illegal. And within reason, it shouldn't be. All the same, though, if you're not interested in a particular policy your employer institutes, you DO have the right to bitch. Sure, you'll probably be fired, but still. Complaints are still allowed.

inevitable and unstoppable

[exhilaration]

It's unfortunate that this is happening but I don't see a backlash happening any time soon. The job market is too tight and most people will just roll over and accept it until it's so pervasive that we won't remember what life was like without the leash around our necks. Kinda like marriage.

Re:inevitable and unstoppable

[susano_otter]

How is this unfortunate?

Re:inevitable and unstoppable

[feepness]

The job market is too tight and most people will just roll over and accept it until it's so pervasive that we won't remember what life was like without the leash around our necks.

Ummm, monitoring location is a little different than having a leash around your neck. Does the employer have any rights? Are you saying the employer can't find a different job? Are you saying 5.6% unemployment is high? Are you completely and utterly out of your mind?

Re:inevitable and unstoppable

[miu]

How is this unfortunate?

Because it is kind of creepy for adults to accept being treated like kindergartners for the sake of increased efficiency.

There is no argument that tracking fleet operations can result in greater efficiency and greater profit, but who cares. This kind of tracking is insulting and dehumanizing. Construction workers and garbage men and the like will use the fleet van to return movies and take an extra 30 minutes for lunch, this sort of tracking will only serve to make a job that is already low status and unpleasant even more so.

Re:inevitable and unstoppable

[Anonymous Coward]

...we won't remember what life was like without the leash around our necks. Kinda like marriage.

I take it you're not married? Or screwed one up? You know that with an open heart and mind, and patience you might find out how easy it is to know when its right, and believe me, it won't feel like you have a leash around your neck. Quite the contrary, you will feel more free than ever before. I'm not married, but I do have only one other person who I let live in my house and use my bathroom...for 26 years. As far as the damn company goes, let 'em do what they want with their property. If you're happy with yourself, you won't care one bit. If you're secure with your abilities, you are going to work as you please, where you please. We do need to be vigilant to avoid ever letting this kind of thing into our private lives, of course.

Re:inevitable and unstoppable

[Prothonotar]

I don't care what you say- I wouldn't want a kindergartner delivering my UPS packages even if she HAS a GPS on board.

Re:inevitable and unstoppable

[LaCosaNostradamus]

You're argument is wholly indefensible, which we can only expect from what I suspect (i.e. that you are a religious nutjob who redefines anything that becomes uncomfortable to deal with).

Marriage means sharing your life with someone else, but that also and inescapably means control and accountability (you might also call these rights and responsibilities). You may not "feel" this is a leash, but your "feelings" don't matter when it comes to objective metrics. And the objective metric on marriage clearly demonstrates that each individual is more constrained than before in many dimensions.

Time to call your minister to get his approval on this line of thought. Away with you!

Re:inevitable and unstoppable

[Anonymous Coward]

...and inescapably means control and accountability...

That's something you gladly accept when you make the commitment. Otherwise you shouldn't make that commitment. Marriage is a choice. Nobody is forcing you to do it. A leash would involve something not quite voluntary. My dog has a leash. We don't. Well, we do, but it's for the dog.

...which we can only expect from what I suspect (i.e. that you are a religious nutjob who redefines anything that becomes uncomfortable to deal with).

Fascinating conclusions you draw here, and with so little information. I don't believe I displayed any discomfort. I certainly wouldn't disparage any volunatary commitments with terms like "leash". I hope you never get on a jury. You will have decided the case after the opening argument.

Re:inevitable and unstoppable

[susano_otter]

Oh, well, hey, make whatever excuses you need to make, to justify cheating your employer and slacking on the job. I hope it all works out for you.

Sure, it sucks if you're a slacker, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

GPS is a Godsend to most folks. I use my tomtom GPS with my Palm tungsten in the car ALL the time. You can keep GPS info for most of the first world on a 1gb SD flash card (less than $100 these days) and never need to worry about getting lost.

Cheers,

Re:Sure, it sucks if you're a slacker, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

I use GPS to find the bathroom when I'm reeeally drunk. It's one of those floating ones, so if I drop it in the toilet, I just rinse it off with a little chlorine. With all the look alike houses around, it makes it easy to pick out mine. Those itty-bitty numbers next to the door are hard to see sometimes.

Of course the Teamsters don't like it

[The I Shing]

Of course the Teamsters don't like it... I can see it now... "So, either of you fellows care to explain why you drove the delivery van over to Mario Calienti's office and then drove it and a cement mixer over to the waterfront?"

Re:Of course the Teamsters don't like it

[LewsTherinKinslayer]

"So, either of you fellows care to explain why you drove the delivery van over to Mario Calienti's office and then drove it and a cement mixer over to the waterfront?"

Because 8-Ball's shop was closed.

Re:Of course the Teamsters don't like it

[shawn(at)fsu]

Kinda ironic. If Jimmy Hoffa had one we would know where he is.

Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[the_mad_poster]

How is this an issue? Explain to me, please, how having oversight of the people you're supposed to have oversight on is a bad thing? Guess what? We track our employees via time clocks, quality assurance, and production quotes. We know where they are all the time while they're here, and if we don't, they're punished for being somewhere they're not supposed to be.

Yet another example of the reason that slashbot crowd simply does not have it's collective head planted anywhere near reality. If you have a problem with your employer making sure you're doing your bloody job, then quit. Be unemployed. When this starts to become an issue of people trying to monitor their employees in their homes or when they're off the clock or something, let me know.

I have a new opinion of the YRO section: anything that appears in it, especially if it's posted by Comrade Censorific Sims, is something that doesn't matter, and I shouldn't care about. This section is only good for keeping me up to date on all the things that aren't an issue and nobody needs to know about.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[csritchie]

"How is this an issue? Explain to me, please, how having oversight of the people you're supposed to have oversight on is a bad thing?" You must be glad you're smart, but not as smart as Alphas because Alphas work too hard... You do look glum! What you need is a gramme of soma.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[Telastyn]

As long as my boss is in 8 to 5 and never off playing golf on the occasional Friday afternoon...

While I generally agree with the opinion the most are overreacting, this is an issue as it moves the focus from someone doing their job [production] to simple attendance. It likely won't help oversight, instead likely will just be another example of people [low level managers in this case] using technology as a crutch instead of actually doing *their* job.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[DNS-and-BIND]

"When the bosses talk about improving productivity, they are never talking about themselves"

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[Herkum01]

The question for me is when you give executives millions in salary and stock options and they have little oversight of their actions. You do not have to look too far to see this behavior (Lord Black, the paper baron or Micheal Eisner handing away a $140 million severance package). These are people in charge of hundred of millions of dollars.

A GPS system to micromanage a $10-20/hour employee seems to be small potatoes.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[Anonymous Coward]

are you stupid or didnt you RTFA ?
the article clearly said that the employers are STARTING TO MONITOR PEOPLE WHEN THEY ARENT AT WORK you idiot. what part of carrying a GPS enabled cell phone WHEN YOU ARE OFF DUTY 24 x 7 didnt you understand ?

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[stupidfoo]

You're exactly right. You know why this type of thing is needed? Two reasons.
1. They have a very real need to track their trucks and packages.
2. Employees like to slack off. We all do it, and the majority of us all do it more when we're on the road.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[Class Act Dynamo]

Yes, but it is the company's prerogative. It may be nitpicking and may shift focus from those who you speak of, but it is not a violation of anyone's rights.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[stupidfoo]

$15 an hour * 100,000 truck drivers = $1.5 million an hour

$1.5 million an hour * 40 hours / week * 52 weeks /year = $3,120,000,000

A little bit more than the money they pay their execs.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[wwest4]

> If you have a problem with your employer making sure you're doing your
> bloody job, then quit.

Aren't there more black-box ways of determining whether I've done my job without gathering extraneous information that invades my privacy? I see problems with the Big Brother approach as not dealing with root cause.

Example: At my workplace, we have a loser who is significantly less productive than his counterparts. He pisses his day away looking at the Internet, talking at the water cooler, forwarding unfunny internet apocrypha and jokes to everyone, and eating 15 meals a day.

He eventually gets his work done, but he does it so slowly, that he is not worth his salary.

Instead of enacting policy that cripples everyone else in order to deal with his particular loafing strategies, doesn't it make a lot more sense to fire him for not earning his compensation, barring a better excuse (health, etc)?

No. Why? The litigious nature of our culture? Personal feelings interfering with management objectivity? Who knows. Whatever it is, I'd like to find out so that I don't have to implement another custom snort filter or whitelist instead of just firing the loser.

The flip side of this is that it disallows me from accepting a job that is easy for me. If I choose to work at Joe's Tape Backup Emporium, and I am compensated for the duration of my time pushing catrtidges, and my work requirements are met, I don't see why I cannot read a book during the downtime (can't leave, but I'm idle). Just because I'm capable of exceeding my quota, while Johhny Newbie has to concentrate 100% just to match me at 50% effort, does not mean I should be compelled to share the benefit of my personal efficiency with my employer if he does not compensate me more than Johnny. If he's not paying me more for my efficiency, why does he care if I'm reading or staring at the screen? The right answer is that he shouldn't, but he does because people like getting shit for free. However, I see no justification of the position that you must work until it's a grind for you. And that's what pervasive monitoring could lead to, because it's always in the employers' interest to squeeze you for all you're worth at the cheapest possible price.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[Skye16]

Yes, but be realistic. Every single driver isn't going to slack off and not do their job every single hour of every single day for an entire year. I agree it's still a lot of money, but it's nowhere near 3 billion dollars.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[susano_otter]

You do understand that this is about more granular tracking of fleet operations, right? Not cubicle farm migration patterns.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[susano_otter]

You're insane. This article is about more granluar tracking of fleet operations.

Truckfulls of packages that have to be a certain place by a certain time.

Is all of Slashdot this stupid, or did the smarty men just take a vacation?

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[dschl]

Obviously, you have the same difficulty turning off a cell phone as you do turning off your capslock key. You should relax, as comments like that can do bad things to your blood pressure.

Oh, and a nitpick - anyone who is "off duty 24x7" is generally unemployed. The intrusiveness of monitoring comes down to the type of employer in the end anyways - an employer who abuses this data will be unpleasant to work for in many other ways. Technology only adds more possibilities for people to act like jerks, but it does not make them jerks in the first place. In Dicken's story, "A Christmas Carol", Ebeneezer Scrooge was a terrible employer - this would not have made him all that much worse.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[plover]

Just as long as you aren't slacking off reading Slashdot while you're on the road. You might confuse your turn signal for a flamer (I won't judge you on whether you consider it a flame on the left or on the right.)

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[wobblie]

You're a fucking twat, that's why. Is that good enough?

My life does NOT fucking belong to you, you miserable fucking cretinous pile of fucking garbage. I don't fucking care if you pay me a pittance for spending most of my life at "your" workplace, but hey, you assholes were never noted for gratitude.

You think your stinking shitpile of crap is somehow "natural", when of course, it's just the result of a system that rewards fucking asshole retards such as yourself.

Once again, fuck off.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[the_mad_poster]

I think it's ironic that the phrase "You're a fucking twat" made me chuckle, which probably lowered my blood pressure, while your post probably raised your blood pressure by several points.

I thank you for killing yourself in the name of my personal comfort, and humbly suggest you get a kitten. You could hold it like a mitten and use it as a masturbation aid while you wile away your lonely, lonely days in front of the glowing screen that brings the only bit of fleeting happiness into your vapid, wasted life.

You could use it between the bowls of microwave macaroni and cheese your mom makes you!

P.S: I thought you might like to know that I'm currently banned from posting for posting posts like this post.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[jafac]

Example: At my workplace, we have a loser who is significantly less productive than his counterparts. He pisses his day away looking at the Internet, talking at the water cooler, forwarding unfunny internet apocrypha and jokes to everyone, and eating 15 meals a day.

The REAL problem here, is your management, who apparently don't have an effective way of measuring employee productivity, and applying it to employee hiring/retention/compensation practices.

If you have a slacking co-worker, you're right to be pissed off. But you should direct your ire at your slacking manager, who is permitting your co-worker to slack off.

Ideally, a competent manager has the knowhow, and the tools, to apply metrics and process to his workers, to adequately measure productivity. Incompetent managers deserve far more to be fired than slacking workers.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[bombadillo]

Actually anyone that is familiar with UPS managment would now that they are one of the most "socialist" companies around. I would be surprised if the CEO of UPS is making greater than 2 million. The upper managment is paid much lower than upper managment of other fortune 500 companies. Also the way to upper managment to UPS is by starting off as packager and working your way up. In the long run the UPS employees make out much better as their bennefits are extremely good. Chances are an employee that works their whole career at UPS will end up as a millionaire.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[Trailer Trash]

Aren't there more black-box ways of determining whether I've done my job without gathering extraneous information that invades my privacy?

What privacy? Seriously? I pay you work for me, then, dammit, you work for me. Why is this so difficult for people to understand? You can have your privacy in the john or off the clock.

I see problems with the Big Brother approach as not dealing with root cause.

There's some truth to that. But I think it makes sense to use a complete approach, and that may include monitoring of activity. Note, too, that the 1984 reference is silly. We're not talking about putting a camera in the employee's house.

A store for you: I worked in a store for 4 years. Guess what- the manager would often stop by and observe us working. He also had the ability to turn our phone into an intercom without us knowing, and there were some cameras around that could watch the store.

Know what? He wrote the paychecks. And frankly most of my coworkers goofed off for half the shift even when they knew that they might be monitored. I cannot imagine what it would have been like if they thought nobody was watching them. If they did think they were being watched, they'd just go take a 15-minute shit break (on the clock) to have a smoke and dope up on speed.

Little things can make a big difference when multiplied by many employees. Get used to it. Everybody working more efficiently can only boost your paycheck.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[Herkum01]

Taking a reference from the New York Times

Enron was a substantial pipeline company long before the frauds appear to have begun there. But it now appears that Parmalat, like CUC International, was able to grow so large only because its longtime auditors failed to discover a fraud that went on for over a decade. That gave the company the ability to use stock for acquisitions.

The CUC fraud, which involved the creation of $500 million in phony profits in the three years before it was discovered in 1998, cost investors $19 billion.

A fraudulently run business can ruin the whole company. I doubt the same can be said for a slacking driver.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[budgenator]

Seems to me if the Employer's conditions of employment require an employee be available 24-7 then knowing where the employee is 24-7 isn't outragious. If the employee is salaried, then he/she is paid 24-7 and being monitored is appropriate. While I'll admit the probability of abuse is high; A friend of the family had a heart attack while driving a trash truck out in the boonies, and the vehicle monitor may have very well saved his life.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[wwest4]

I agree that management is the problem, in two ways

1) (Which you alluded to) is that there is no accountability in the productivity measurements. No comparison of deliverables to hours reported. Without that, there is no data to assist decisions concerning compensation and retention.

2) Policing punishes/exploits all for the sins of few.

> Incompetent managers deserve far more to be fired than slacking workers.

I think that decision should be based solely on whether or not you fulfill the expectations for which you are being compensated, regardless of your position - which leads to the same conclusion (fire the boss/don't buy the product, etc).

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[winwar]

"Example: At my workplace, we have a loser who is significantly less productive than his counterparts. He pisses his day away looking at the Internet, talking at the water cooler, forwarding unfunny internet apocrypha and jokes to everyone, and eating 15 meals a day."

Hey, that almost sounds like a manager where I work... Well, maybe more than one... The same ones that will yell at workers to "look busy" rather than change the system to ensure a constant work flow. Guess that is not their job. :)

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[wierdling]

Just because an employee is salaried, does most assuredly NOT mean they are on the clock 24/7. They are still only paid for 40 hours per work, or at least, that is the way it was supposed to work.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[wwest4]

> What privacy? Seriously? I pay you work for me, then, dammit, you work for
> me.

You pay me to do a job, then I do the job. You don't own me just because I'm on your payroll.

> Why is this so difficult for people to understand?
Because it's antithetical to the western liberal notion that to work is to accomplish a task - not to submit our minds and bodies for contiguous chunks of time. That's not employment, that's indentured servitude.

> You can have your privacy in the john or off the clock.

Do you have the right to watch me piss if I'm on the clock? What if I piss too much? That would be unreasonable. Who defines what is reasonable and what is not? The employer? The unions? The state?

> Little things can make a big difference when multiplied by many employees. Get
> used to it. Everybody working more efficiently can only boost your paycheck.

This may sound distasteful, but I'm not interested in restlessly driving up standards so that my position becomes more valuable. Not right now, anyway. When I am, I'll be eligible for a better job or a raise. Is career ambition obligatory? We could all work 15 hour days and shit in a pail and eat gruel that's piped to our desks. I think anyone who does that deserves the savings in the form of a bigger paycheck, but it's not for me. I'm not advocating the do-nothing approach, but I think the market acts as a counter-weight to that tendency to some degree.

> Note, too, that the 1984 reference is silly. We're not talking about
> putting a camera in the employee's house. ...Sorry for the hyperbole which happens to be in the vernacular as not neccessarily connoting a macroscopic dystopia. I guess it's said for lack of a more convenient term... if it pleases you, substitute "workplace monitoring."

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[winwar]

"1) (Which you alluded to) is that there is no accountability in the productivity measurements. No comparison of deliverables to hours reported. Without that, there is no data to assist decisions concerning compensation and retention."

Won't help if you have bad management. Sure they will have numbers. But if they know they are goofing off NOW and not firing them, why would hard numbers help? The problem with numbers are many including: do they mean anything, will you act on them.

"I think that decision should be based solely on whether or not you fulfill the expectations for which you are being compensated, regardless of your position..."

And now, if you meet the minimum requirements, no need to be fired.... So feel free to slack off. If the workers know that if they meet the minimum standard they won't be fired and there is no hope of moving up, guess what, it is logical to slack off.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[The FooMiester]

Aren't there more black-box ways of determining whether I've done my job without gathering exraneous information that invades my privacy? I see problems with the Big Brother approach as not dealing with root cause.

How better to figure out where someone is at a given time than a GPS unit that phones home? What other black-box solution do you suggest? Alot of them are already carrying the hardware needed to impliment this(nextel phones do it for one).

Invades YOUR privacy? How about protecting the owner of the company's assets?

Instead of enacting policy that cripples everyone else

How does a black box in a truck, or a cellphone that you carry anyway cripple anyone? Or did I just get trolled

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[The FooMiester]

No, but how about this:

My trucks belong to me. If you want to work for me, you'll drive them where I tell you to. I don't mind if you get a pack of cigarettes when you stop for fuel in the morning, or if you grab lunch somewhere reasonable on the way to the afternoon job.

But don't let me catch you sleeping on the side of the road somewhere, or hanging out at a buddy's house at the end of the day to waste the last half hour. You'll come back to the shop, and load up for tomorrow's work. Do you understand?

We'll work together as long as it's profitable. You need to go out and do the jobs, I need to set them up. How would you feel if I decided to not get any sales, and tomorrow you didn't have a job? Well, that's what it's like when you go and goof off on me. I can't pay people to not make me money. If I don't make money, I can't pay you.

It's called RESPONSIBILITY.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[anagama]

• My life does NOT fucking belong to you, you miserable fucking cretinous pile of fucking garbage. I don't fucking care if you pay me a pittance for spending most of my life at "your" workplace, but hey, you assholes were never noted for gratitude.

I think the parent post demonstrates why excessive monitoring is counterproductive. If an employer creates a work atmosphere in which employees feel repressed by management - morale, motivation, and productivity are going to fall. No matter how much the "I pay you, you do what I say" line is repeated, people are just not that simple. They want to feel appreciated - such feelings lead to dedication - dedication leads to high productivity (in general, there are always exceptions).

When I think about my worst job experience, it was management that made it that way. Quitting that job was an absolute blast. I came in, 2nd in command asks me why I look so happy. I said "Today's my last day!" (big smiles) and then asked if I could leave early. She eventually just told me to go home right then - which made me happier still. This is in a context where the rules were in daily flux, people were terminated on management whim, and our pay-checks were bouncing. I got a little speach about "employee loyalty" - my retort - "what about employer loyalty?" Thinking back to that day always makes me smile - it was just so fun to walk in and show the bastards they had no power over me and I wasn't going to put up with the BS. Why did I feel that way? Because the employees were shown complete disrespect every second of the workday.

So, while so many have the "I pay - you work" sentiment - remember that treating your workers like shit means they'll treat you back in the same manner and love every second of it. Treat your employees with respect, and by and large, they'll be highly loyal.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[Anonymous Coward]

It's no different from a politician talking about sacrifice, or even the law. Those things don't apply to them. With a re-election rate of what?...95% or more?...we must think it's ok. Hey. The bosses are better than us. They have no need to be productive. That's what we do...make them look productive. They get all the credit and bonuses, and we have the pleasure of not having to work in middle management, catching it from both ends.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[jargoone]

This is very true. Not firsthand information, but friend-of-a-friend type: someone my dad knows has been a UPS driver for quite some time (maybe 15 years?), and pulls in around $125k a year. Compare that to other industries where you can work a lifetime and and not earn half that.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[reso]

ugh...when did being available 24/7 become socially acceptable? i know doctors are sometimes on call 24/7, saving lives and all, but would it kill a big company to hire extra hands in the off-chance that their mission-critical networks go down or a new M$ problem is found? my nerves would go out the window if a client or client manager was able to request design changes in the middle of the night (even, say, because of time zone differences) and my work would suffer. i don't think i'm alone in this. I may be a little off topic at this point but it comes back to having my personal space and my employer no where in the peripheral.

that and i'll never buy a cell phone until they get rid of custom ringtones ;)

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[Anonymous Coward]

NOt chance at all, the pay structure and promotion from within process are geared toward that. And as far as tracking an employee, it's done the easy way. Send a supe on road with them. Beats the heck out of a GPS for improving performance.

Aside from which, time is fairly easy to schedule off if needed, within the rules of seniority, etc.

Beats the heck out of my previous driving jobs. Sure, it's hard work, but it pays well. Some drivers make more than Supervisors!

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[wwest4]

> What other black-box solution do you suggest?

I have a Timex Ironman GPS/watch combo. The watch is programmed only to give me results. It doesn't provide any position data, but it's still a useful training tool because it provides speed info. Do you see what I'm getting at?

> Invades YOUR privacy? How about protecting the owner of the company's assets?

How about a happy medium? Is the latter all that matters?

> How does a black box in a truck, or a cellphone that you carry anyway cripple
> anyone? Or did I just get trolled

Because some dude was unreasonably late with his shipments, the boss now has an excuse to track everyone. Suddenly, employees who had some flexibility (in case of a dentist's appointment or an errand to run or a 20 minute rest) are now under scrutiny. Corporations are profit motivated. If you're a guy who was perfectly filling his quotas and taking an occasional break, you are now potentially forced to fork over all of your efficiency (that which you could have earned entirely without the employers help) to the employer as profit. I am tempted to think that there is something wrong with that situation.

Employers should be able to improve their efficiencies, but not by owning a worker, balls to bones, while he's on the clock. There must be a balance struck between worker autonomy and employer control. The kind of tracking data collected as cited in the article are, in my opinion, upsetting that balance to the detriment of the worker and, ultimately, the business.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[some damn guy]

Well, it only takes one delivery car broadsiding someone because the driver was speeding to rack up some serious liability for any company. Great productivity can be erased pretty quick by even one accident. Lawsuits can be just as rediculous as CEO bonuses.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[stupidfoo]

Send a supe on road with them. Beats the heck out of a GPS for improving performance.

When the supervisor is there. Overall the GPS system is the most cost-efficient method.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[Richard_at_work]

Just remember that your boss is your boss, hes not accountable to you, you are to him.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[ArtStone]

Bzzzt...

All of the specific examples in the article are clear to state that the tracking was while people were "on the clock".

The only statement about 24x7 tracking was from the advocacy group - National Workrights Institute - who "cited examples" where this happens, but that article does not mention any of the cited examples.

Since all cell phones are soon going to be E911 enabled, pretty much anyone required to have a cell phone by their employer will theoretically be trackable. What your rant lacks is any connection to an abuse by the employer...

Tell me an example where an employer fires someone because they went to the "wrong" church on Sunday and then you'll get my attention.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[budgenator]

Never been in the Military have you; you are not only paid 24-7, but you are expected to work a 24hr shift occasionaly. In combat, you often have to eat on the run, and are lucky to get a cat-nap during an opperation which often run 48 hrs. until a relief occures.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[Prothonotar]

What? That's ridiculous! At least 75% of that income belongs to the Teamsters!

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[Prothonotar]

Why do you assume that UPS is interested in going after someone who's dentist appointment ran late?

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[Prothonotar]

You pay me to do a job, then I do the job. You don't own me just because I'm on your payroll.

But UPS does own the trucks.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[Prothonotar]

I don't think comparisons between corporate life and military life are valid here.

In the private sector, anyone who is off-duty (even if they are on-call) should not have to be monitored. If part of their job responsibilities is to respond to a call within a given time, then that's easily monitored without having any idea where they are.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[Chess_the_cat]

A GPS system to micromanage a $10-20/hour employee seems to be small potatoes.

It's not to the customer who wants to be able to track his package in real time.

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[Hognoxious]

it is the company's prerogative. It may be nitpicking and may shift focus from those who you speak of, but it is not a violation of anyone's rights.

Not even the shareholders?

Re:Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest

[plague3106]

He also had the ability to turn our phone into an intercom without us knowing

Actually this is probably illegal in most of the US...its in violation of wiretap laws.

Here we go!

[af_robot]

In Soviet Russia Mobile Workers Monitors YOU!

LOL @ TEAMSTERS

[Anonymous Coward]

If the Teamsters say it, it must be so. Where is Jimmy Hoffa when you need him?

Thus spake the article

[nizo]

This past summer, for example, managers at Metropolitan Lumber & Hardware in New York worried when a new driver dispatched to a delivery just six blocks away still hadn't arrived after 3 1/2 hours. But using GPS, dispatchers soon tracked him down, "goofing off" on the other side of Manhattan, said Larry Charity, the company's information technology manager.

Remember, the way to get out of this is to lock yourself in your trunk when the boss shows up.

I am looking forward to an automatted "potty tracker" that keeps track of how often I and my coworkers visit the restroom each day. Maybe everyone can give their tracking devices to the new intern (wow look everyone is in the bathroom at the same time).

Re:Thus spake the article

[exhilaration]

I am looking forward to an automatted "potty tracker" that keeps track of how often I and my coworkers visit the restroom each day.

It's called the "The Active Badge Location System", and Xerox developed it.

Re:Thus spake the article

[winwar]

Well, I'm glad the managers were so concerned that it only took them over 3 hours to determine the driver was late. If this happens, there are only a few LIKELY reasons: vehicle problem (aka accident/collision), employee goofing off, employee clueless (went to wrong address), company clueless (actually failed to dispatch, gave wrong address), customer clueless (actually delivered hours ago), others....

I mean a manager could have got in a car and driven the route (or WALKED) and they would have discovered the problem. No truck = high likelihood of employee at fault. GPS is not a great help. Sure it will track the truck and driver down but hey, the employers probably had a good idea if the employee was trustworthy. Of course, the fact that it took them so long indicates a great need for a clue-by-four...

All in all, a tech system to compensate (poorly) for bad management. I suspect THAT is why most people who don't like the system, don't like it.

Re:Thus spake the article

[johannesg]

Your point made me think of something else: if one of those tracked trucks gets into accident, and the company does not respond _immediately_ by sending out aid (and they are capable of that, since they have all the necessary information), does that mean they are liable?

I can see it now: "So here the log shows how the truck went from 60MPh to 0MPh in less than a second, which can only be caused by hitting a solid, non-yielding object, yet it took the company three hours before they called an ambulance for the driver."

Re:Thus spake the article

[fm6]

I am looking forward to an automatted "potty tracker" that keeps track of how often I and my coworkers visit the restroom each day.

The civil rights and privacy lawyers will have a lot of fun with that one. Increased visits to the commode might be a symptom of goofing off, but it might also be a symptom of a medical condition that an employer has no business knowing about. In particular, it's a symptom of benign prostate hypoplasia, a condition most men experience as they get older. An employer that makes personnel decisions on that kind of data is letting himself in for lawsuits based on disability- and age-discrimination statutes.

Which doesn't mean some brain dead manager won't do it anyway...

Re:Thus spake the article

[Prothonotar]

If you tend to go to the bathroom for 3 1/2 hours at a time, perhaps you do need to be tracked.

The example you cite is an example of why these things are USEFUL, not invasive.

Re:Thus spake the article

[Prothonotar]

The example you cite is a great example of why tracking can be useful, not invasive.

Why wait 3 1/2 hours? Maybe the employers are not in the habit of watching every move their delivery men make until it becomes an unreasonable problem. Perhaps delays of an hour or so are understood to be common, or the employers are just willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt before they start tracking them down.

Most people here seem to have a problem with an employer tracking someone (even a delivery man) because they are afraid they'll nickel and dime them. Here's an example where the employers waited long past a time may have been appropriate to track someone down. That demonstrates to me that they were not in a rush to infiltrate the lives of their employees even when they ARE on the clock.

related note

[LiquidMind]

I remember reading something about Rent-a-car places putting GPS systems in their cars so they can tell if someone has been speeding (x amounts of mph over the limit times y amount of minutes, etc). If the customer did, he would be charged more. (sorry, don't have the article URL).

Much like with the system mentioned in the article, it's supposed to act as a deterrent but is it really more of a way for the guy 'on top' to exert more control (and hence the $$$ bottom line)?
I for one do *not* welcome our eye-in-the-sky overlords.

And the problem is?

[October_30th]

for counting every minute that they might or might not be on or off duty and holding that against them

And the problem with that is... what? If you're on the company time, you're not supposed to be "goofing off on the other side of Manhattan" way off your route.

As long as the terms of tracking are put into the contract, I don't see any problem with that. You know what you'll be signing for.

Re:And the problem is?

[Uukrul]

The problem is that your boss usually don't think that travel time it's work time. If you are in the office and must go to visit a client across the city your boss thinks that you aren't working.
If you need to buy a new printer for you home-pc, where you work usually, that's not working.
If you work at night, when your boss isn't watching the damn thing, you aren't working.

It's not important where you are. The important it's that when the job has to be finished it's finished.

Re:And the problem is?

[October_30th]

If you are in the office and must go to visit a client across the city your boss thinks that you aren't working.

What happened to the communication between the boss and an employee? If the boss gives you crap about the visit to a client, tell him to call the damned client and have him to confirm that it was a business call.

If you need to buy a new printer for you home-pc, where you work usually, that's not working.

Huh? Say again. I don't think you're supposed to be buying a new printer for your home-pc on company time.

If you work at night, when your boss isn't watching the damn thing, you aren't working

Well, if the tracking shows that you're at work the boss can hardly complain about it. See. This invention works for you.

Re:And the problem is?

[NanoGator]

"And the problem with that is... what?"

False hits.

At my previous job, I was busted once for reading Slashdot at work. Stupid thing was, the one time they caught me, I was actually doing work. I was looking at the source code for the home page to solve a problem I was having with the website I was working on. Sadly, I had two monitors, and my boss looked at the left one with the web page on it and not the right one with the source code.

In the end, I was able to explain to my boss what I was up to and all was cool. But if she had 'busted' me by looking at logs of the sites I were visiting, I would have risked being terminated without being given a chance to defend myself.

In the case cited above, this guy was clearly wasting time. But if bosses/managers get so in tune to just reading the logs and hitting the 'fire' button, what rights would the employees have? Managers in particular have a bad way of summing up a situation with too few facts. The last thing I'm interested in doing is arming them with more details to make their decisions with that would cause them to make up their mind before the employee has had a chance to defend him/herself.

Sounds like bad management

[bfizzle]

From the article: "If you're not out there baby-sitting them, you don't know how long it takes to do the route. The guy could be driving around the world, he could be at his girlfriend's house" If these managers would manage better then they could save money by not having to micromanage and actually do their job. Maybe they should hire better employees?

Re:Sounds like bad management

[DNS-and-BIND]

These are union shops we're talking about here. They're unfirable.

Re:Sounds like bad management

[bfizzle]

But will it stop a union shops? Next thing you you'll have a pager attached to your belt while you are at your cushie office job too.

Re:Sounds like bad management

[ranolen]

How are you supposed to know if you need better employees if you cannot watch to see what they are doing???

Re:Sounds like bad management

[Anonymous Coward]

The managers are managing better by using GPS technology rather than spending their time keeping track of their employees personally.

Don't you think that a critical metric in the delivery business is the amount of time that it takes to cover a route? Seems to me that the GPS tracking is a great way to do that without having your boss sitting in the truck with you.

Besides, Grace Hopper was right on when she said that you manage machines and you lead people. The good managers will become leades by sharing the GPS info with the employees and working with them to improve their efficiency in covering their routes.

-ac-

Re:Sounds like bad management

[Anonymous Coward]

"Maybe they should hire better employees?"
You can't determine who is a good or bad delivery driver without a metric AND a way, such as tracking, to verify performance.
Most employees are slugs, and since one must work with what one has, ya gotta watch them.

Re:Sounds like bad management

[winwar]

"The managers are managing better by using GPS technology rather than spending their time keeping track of their employees personally."

That's not managing, that's tracking. I'm sure someone can write a program to do the same thing for less money. Effective management requires at least some personal contact, a high degree of respect for the employee, and knowledge of the job.

In my experience, effective management blends into the job background-bad management screams out its presence.

"Don't you think that a critical metric in the delivery business is the amount of time that it takes to cover a route? Seems to me that the GPS tracking is a great way to do that without having your boss sitting in the truck with you."

Time to cover a route is important. And a GPS is important for this. But why the hell isn't the info already known?!?! Every heard of a stopwatch (and a supervisor in the truck with you)?

"The good managers will become leades by sharing the GPS info with the employees and working with them to improve their efficiency in covering their routes."

No the "good" managers (from the company perspective) will be the ones who complain that you took longer to do the route than the "ideal" time. Even though the ideal was based on minimal stops, minimal traffic, and ideal weather.

If a supervisor/manager doesn't understand the job then unrealistic metrics will be set. And a GPS system will allow this to be done. Setting realistic metrics is HARD. And most people (including managers) are lazy.

Re:Sounds like bad management

[winwar]

"You can't determine who is a good or bad delivery driver without a metric AND a way, such as tracking, to verify performance."

Bullshit. You sound like a bad manager justifying his/her crappy hiring decisions. Good employees are EASY to find. Finding GOOD employees at LOW wages is DIFFICULT. This is what businesses are complaining about when they say they can't find good employees....

If your delivers things, a metric already exists. Some type of tracking system already exists. We need X packages delivered. If he/she did X in the time alloted, then performance was fine. A GPS system would be useful if you want to fine tune things-but few companies really care about that-they just want the employee to go faster (but safety comes first-yeah right). Even if there is a way to make his/her job easier or quicker by changing company procedures.

Look, I work at a distribution center-I do a good job (I outperform some full-time personnel as a temp). But I receive NO benefits from working hard or doing a good job. They will keep me around if I work hard or slack off or start making errors. Hell, if anything, I am penalized for doing a good job (hey, go fix this, go fix that....) Because people aren't fired for doing a poor job. And we have a tracking system....

Re:Sounds like bad management

[bfizzle]

Exactly the cost to install and maintain a tracking system isn't cheap. It has gotten pretty inexpensive, but why not create an incentive system for your employees to perform better instead. Give bonuses to people like this parent who work their ass off and managers know they work hard.

You get someone who is a good manager and encourages people to do their best rather than breath down their necks all the time will have better employees and will be able to retain them.

You will always have people who do the minimum to keep their job and no more, GPS system or not. Thats fine keep them there at low level jobs and low pay where they belong. Reward people who work hard and do more than their share. Unions and their damn senority systems are what the real problem is for these companies.

Re:Sounds like bad management

[feepness]

"The good managers will become leades by sharing the GPS info with the employees and working with them to improve their efficiency in covering their routes." No the "good" managers (from the company perspective) will be the ones who complain that you took longer to do the route than the "ideal" time. Even though the ideal was based on minimal stops, minimal traffic, and ideal weather. No, the good managers will be the former, as you say. The good senior managers will recognize that... and recognize that their happy employees are working hard with less turnover... The good companies as a whole will recognize the good senior managers... And the good companies will charge less for a more reliable services... Hurrah for capitalism...

inevitable and unstoppable-Uncivil Fraud.

[Anonymous Coward]

"It's unfortunate that this is happening but I don't see a backlash happening any time soon. "

Why is it unfortunate? Here GPS was used to catch a civil servant committing fraud. Something you and I eventually pay for. Do you really want it to be "fortunate" that people can get away with such things?

Re:inevitable and unstoppable-Uncivil Fraud.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not a civil servant. UPS, not USPS.

Regardless, your point stands. The truck is the property of UPS. UPS is paying the driver to take a package from point A (depot) to point B (delivery location).

If said driver spends a lot of time at point C (donut shop ? 'discreet encounter' ?) and claims upon his return that he was caught in traffic? Who pays for that?

Shareholders and consumers. And that's just crap.

Re:inevitable and unstoppable-Uncivil Fraud.

[Anonymous Coward]

Poor "shareholders"! Let me wipe the sympathy off my butt for them....MmmmYeah...good, I think I got it all.

Hasn'y This Been Common With Truckers?

[reallocate]

Can't recall the name, but remember reading several years ago about a U.S. trucking firm that did real-time tracking of all its trucks, monitored their fuel consumption, speed, how long it took of load and offload, if they deviated from the designated route or schedule, etc. Apparently resulted in serious efficiencies and serious revenue, with little grousing from drivers.

This doesn't seem to me to be a grievous problem. Employees don't have the right to use the boss's time and property as they choose.

Re:Hasn'y This Been Common With Truckers?

[bfizzle]

So how long does it take for the Union workers to figure out if they all work really slow they can still stick it to the company GPS or not.
If they can all bring down the stats collectively then what is a company going to do.
Don't get me wrong I think trying to get more work out of your workers is a great idea but there are better way to encourage them to do it other than with a chair and whip.

Re:Hasn'y This Been Common With Truckers?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's actually common for trucking companies to use tracking technologies. Qualcomm is one of the big vendors for tracking technology (press release).

The point to tracking is not just productivity, as you indicate, but it also helps track down stolen trailers, often before the crooks even get a chance to unload them. This helps hold insurance rates down so that the trucking companies can offer better rates.

Re:Hasn'y This Been Common With Truckers?

[writermike]

Can't recall the name, but remember reading several years ago about a U.S. trucking firm that did real-time tracking of all its trucks, monitored their fuel consumption, speed, how long it took of load and offload, if they deviated from the designated route or schedule, etc. Apparently resulted in serious efficiencies and serious revenue, with little grousing from drivers.

You're right.

It was covered in Wired some years ago. IIRC, the article was primarily about Schneider National and the company's efforts to track those items you mentioned.

I don't recall the article being particularly upbeat, though. I remember that the writer rode with a particular driver from Schneider and this particular driver wasn't that pleased.

Mostly, I remember this because one passage drew a scene in which the Schneider trucker, in the middle of passing another truck, was suddenly out run by the other truck.

The trucker remarked that the other truckers wouldn't dare let a Schneider pass them up, referring to the governor that restricts the truck's speed.

I think of this passage every time _I_ pass a Schneider truck on the road.

m

Re:Hasn'y This Been Common With Truckers?

[SerpentMage]

I am glad you mentioned this because this is where the system has caused massive failures. Here in Europe Truckers have been tracked for decades. In the early days it started with a time/speed, etc tracker that is installed, and now it is GPS, etc.

What happened? It has made the trucking industry more dangerous than ever. The problem is that when businesses control every move it forces the people to cheat. Truckers in Europe are "hinted" by their bosses to break the rules to keep competitive. Truckers will drive too long using equipment that often is a hazard to the road.

The problem with GPS systems is that initially there will be a gain, and then a future collapse. Lets say you install GPS, and get a 100% productivity gain. Great, for one year you do well. Then in the next year what do you do? Companies will always want productivity gains. What do you do when there is nothing to be gained? For example, you cannot carry out a pregancy with nine women in one month.

So do companies buy new trucks? Do they install better processes? Nope, the problem is that many industries are mature and as efficient as it will get. Yet the shareholders are telling the managers to become "productive".

Re:Hasn'y This Been Common With Truckers?

[balloonpup]

It's not just one U.S. trucking firm. Nearly all I've run into and worked for do it using a system from Qualcomm. JB Hunt, Werner, Swift, C.R. England and Schneider to my knowledge do it. It doesn't cause grousing for a couple reasons.

-- In the event of mechanical trouble, the trucker can be located even easier.
-- The system itself allows realtime communication with the dispatcher and other groups within the company. In some cases, it even allows truck to truck communication.
-- The GPS allows the driver to request directions to a destination from their current location.
-- The fuel information can help an Owner Operator save money.
-- The usage tracking can be useful in proving that a driver was operating legally in case of accident or other violation. This is a biggie.

I think it just ended up that the good outweighed the bad. I know it doesn't really bother me, after all, I'm on my employer's dollar anyway. Granted, I don't get paid hourly anyway (per stop and mile instead), so it doesn't make a huge difference unless I'm late to an appointment...

Re:Hasn'y This Been Common With Truckers?

[balloonpup]

The owner operators may have not let a Schneider pass them, but most company drivers are governed and have been long before the computers came about. It saves a good deal on fuel and a _lot_ more on insurance. Safety is an issue as well, of course, though differences in speed (see a truck governed at 55 on a 75 mph highway) can cause problems too. From experience, I know some of the governed speeds, and driving a governed truck now isn't so bad. Last I checked, JB Hunt was at 62, Swift at 55 or 65, depending on the truck, CR England was at 65 (O/O at 70), C&S was at 55 or 70 (some of their trucks were at 55 due to a screwed up purchase hehe). I don't know what a Schnedier's at these days, but I know that it was better than 65 last time I tried to pass one! Generally, if you see a truck with a familiar name on it, and it doesn't have piles of lights or a custom paint job, it's probably a company truck and governed between 55 and 65. It's just such a savings to the company, it's a hard thing to resist.

One thing computers did, though, was make it far harder to defeat the governor in the truck. It used to be simple things like plates or throttle stops. Such is the industry, I suppose...

Re:Hasn'y This Been Common With Truckers?

[Anonymous Coward]

I work for a company called MoblTec that specializes in touch screen computers for propane trucks. The system utilizes GPS to track vehicle location and speed. GPS provides management a way to track driving habits but at the same time it benefits drivers by allowing mapping functionality.

I think more companies are using GPS systems than people realize. It isn't just the large companies either. Many of our clients are small companies with only 3-5 trucks.

Re:Hasn'y This Been Common With Truckers?

[sribe]

Apparently resulted in serious efficiencies and serious revenue, with little grousing from drivers.

I know the system you're talking about--read a big long article about it at the time. The company also had a policy that if a driver was more than 15 minutes late more than twice in a year, he could be fired--this is cross-country trucking! And yet the drivers didn't complain, because the GPS and communications were their link into an awesome backend support system. Any mechanical problem, any traffic jam, any unusual need and they'd have a person back at the home office working virtually hand-in-hand with them on finding a solution.

The trucking company in question specialized in guaranteed delivery times for time-sensitive cargo, and charged higher rates for this special service, and paid their truckers better than average as well. So, imagine that: higher performance requirements + good support staff + higher pay + the right people == satisfied employees. What a shock!

Re:Hasn'y This Been Common With Truckers?

[cpt_rhetoric]

It also probably helps them maintain compliance with all the new laws about number of hours driven per driver, mandatory rest stops, etc.

Re:Hasn'y This Been Common With Truckers?

[reallocate]

>> The problem is that when businesses control every move it forces the people to cheat.

Can you envision an arrangement in which the participants don't have an incentive to cheat? Control by business has nothing to do with this.

>> truckers in Europe are "hinted" by their bosses to break the rules...

If the rules are actually legislated, then the managers should be charged and tried. If the rules are simply company policy, what's wrong with the company deciding to bend them?

>> Truckers will drive too long using equipment that often is a hazard to the road.

Don't pay drivers for excess hours. Do more truck inspections and disable trucks that don't meet safety standards.

>> .problem with GPS systems is that initially there will be a gain, and then a future collapse..

Any new technology will provide an initial gain, follwed by a plateauing of benefits, not a collapse. You're arguing for the abandonment of any technological advance because you claim it will result it the collapse of an industry. That's demonstrably silly.

>> the problem is that many industries are mature and as efficient as it will get. Yet the shareholders are telling the managers to become "productive".

No, they're telling the managers they want a bigger return on their investments. Productivity is simply a buzzword that means "make more money with the same resources". When you buy something for the express purpose of making money, it is rather natural that you would pressure it to make more money.

Re:Hasn'y This Been Common With Truckers?

[Prothonotar]

GPS has been used by truckers here in the US for a long time now, as previous posts attest to. So, it must just be the European aspect of it that has failed.

I just thought of something

[nizo]

UPS Inc., for example, will distribute new hand-held computers to its 100,000 U.S. delivery truck drivers early next year..

I wonder how hard it would be for a third party to get this information? Knowing exactly where a big van full of boxes of stuff is right now would make it quite a bit easier to pillage said truck wouldn't it? Or maybe a competitor could conveniently get people to interfere with traffic and slow them down along their routes, things like that.

Re:I just thought of something

[Albinofrenchy]

Completely unrelated, any word on when they will give these things to armored trucks...

Re:I just thought of something

[Dun Malg]

I wonder how hard it would be for a third party to get this information?

Not very, but then what?

Knowing exactly where a big van full of boxes of stuff is right now would make it quite a bit easier to pillage said truck wouldn't it?

Nah, they all run regular routes anyway. Don't need a secret link to the GPS tracker system to know the UPS truck is coming down a certain road at the same time every day.

Or maybe a competitor could conveniently get people to interfere with traffic and slow them down along their routes, things like that.

They couldn't affect them much. So long as the truck is still running, the driver delivers until the packages are all gone. Slow traffic just makes the day a little longer.

Re:I just thought of something

[weenis]

ooooooooooo
i like the way you think!

Re:I just thought of something

[RabidStoat]

I assumed they've had them for years ? IIRC some of the UK companies have been using them for a few years.

Re:I just thought of something

[nizo]

I dunno about UPS, but FedEX offers a "before 10am" service, which causes the driver to meander all over town driving like a bat out of hell to get all the packages delivered before 10am. But otherwise yeah they have a standard route.

Re:I just thought of something

[bobthemuse]

There was a trial service with something similar to this, but I don't remember which service [fedex, DHL, UPS, etc]. They received an email notification as the truck was approaching their house. They could sign up for notifications 5, 10, 15 minutes before. Very cool if you live upstairs or work nearby and want to grab/sign for a delivery!

Re:I just thought of something

[ibpooks]

...not like it's hard to find one anyway. Just go to that big brown and yellow building near the airport with "UPS" on the outside about 7:00am. Follow one of the big brown trucks that pulls out of the lot.

Why is this a problem?

[meyerj88]

If a person is on the clock for an employer and is supposed to be doing a certain task then this is a logical way to make sure the employee is doing his or her job. This is no invasion of privacy. It is no different than a company monitoring the traffic on their own computer networks.

whats wrong with it?

[Datasage]

Considering i had a recent delivery taht was supposed to be deleivred before christmas. It was, but to the wrong address. I dont really mind of delivery companies start using GPS to help verify correct addresses. Well thats until the GPS system says you are at the wrong place when you are not.

But from the other side, Is it really and diffrent than being in an office where you are being watched by your boss anyway?

Re:whats wrong with it?

[Anonymous Coward]

At least in the office you know when your boss skips out for a round of golf.

Re:whats wrong with it?

[Prothonotar]

You expected a delivery to be before Christmas AND to the correct address?

You fascist!

Alternatives

[blogeasy]

The GPS device on the vehicles receive the data from the satellitess, compute their coordinates, and transmit data to employer computer systems. What if those "computed GPS values" were to be altered before transmission to the employer computer systems? Or maybe a jamming device to interrupt the transmission signals for a brief period of time?

Excellent post

[October_30th]

I bet the submitter and most people posting in this thread are not familiar with a concept such as "time clock" or that you're not supposed to loiter around or conduct personal business on company time.

At my work..

[doormat]

We've been tracking our field staff using Airlink CDMA PinPoint modems. Not only does it provide our field staff with cellular-based internet access for our web-based field applications, but it also provides us with GPS coordinates of the device every 5 seconds. It also came in handy when one of our trucks was stolen a while back, it was easy to track it and find it. We just cant wait 'til they upgrade the modems from 1xRTT to 1xEVDO. 200kbit/s wireless access!

Helped roll out a system in 2000

[deep_magic]

This was for a trash / dumpster company that wanted to monitor their employees driving habits.

The funny thing was overtime fell from 10 hrs / week (per employee) to 1 or 2 hrs / week once people knew they were being watched.

The other funny thing was the guy we caught going to his GF's house for a noon-er. Imagine that, pulling up for some lovin in a 2-ton garbage truck.

Re:Helped roll out a system in 2000

[Anonymous Coward]

Imagine that, pulling up for some lovin in a 2-ton garbage truck.

Did they talk dirty during sex?

Thank you, I'll be here all year...

Re:Helped roll out a system in 2000

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm, don't bother.

Fuck yankdot

[Anonymous Coward]

fuck you fat cunts

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Yeah, the big brown truck isn't a clue...

[PornMaster]

Boy, wouldn't it be hard to give UPS drivers crap to deal with by getting in front of the big brown truck and driving slowly?

How does GPS help this? Someone also hacks the traffic light system so they can slow it down remotely?

If you're on my dime

[davmoo]

Unless you regularly do personal business on your boss' transportation dime, you have no reason to object to this when used on company time and/or company vehicles. This is no invasion of your personal privacy, and there is no attack on your personal rights. Do your personal shit on your own time and money.

And seeing the volumes of stories in the news about workers slacking off on the job, its no surprise that the Teamsters would oppose the idea.

Re:If you're on my dime

[plover]

Actually, I'd like to see it tied to their logs.

If a commercial driver is on the road, he or she is required to be logging his or her time for driver fatigue reasons. A GPS that simply started a clock at the departure from a scheduled point, and stopped it on arrival at a destination (with subtractions if the GPS stops moving for 15 or more minutes) would let drivers squeeze every possible minute of their allowed drive time (it wouldn't count against them if they were unloading, for example) but would still maintain the safety requirements the employers are required to enforce.

Yeah, I don't really want to see them using them as "speeding tickets" (because I like being behind trucks that are flying down the freeway :-) but I doubt it will be much longer before there's a Federal requirement to include such a device in any commercial vehicle. If a fuel truck crashed into an elementary school because of driver fatigue, Congress would pass such a law faster than a troll going for a first post on Slashdot.

By the way, you can buy these devices from Davis Instruments today, if you're interested. They're trying to sell them to parents of teenage drivers.

Re:If you're on my dime

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not on "your" dime you dumb piece of shit.
The dime requieres a sence of responsibilty and
respect from both sides.
What exactly would you be able to produce
without those you boss around?

Re:If you're on my dime

[lew3004]

"Work the hardest and produce the least..." I believe the quote is. Hmmm, you've never been outside the US, have you? Until you have been, "sit down and shut the fuck up" (to steal a direct quote). Also, stop posting AC if you truly believe what you've posted has any meaning to anybody.

From the business perspective

[Lord_Dweomer]

Before everybody jumps about the privacy concerns, let me explain something.

This is in regards to business. These businesses have a SUBSTANTIAL investment in their fleet, and in the service they provide. If you owned one of these companies, wouldn't you be a bit ticked off if your employees were racking up non-business related miles on your vehicles, putting them at more risk for accidents, and reducing the overall efficiency of your business?

Thats what I thought. If you're on company time using company resources, don't expect any privacy. I mean, I personally feel there should be a limit...I mean, I don't want to get written up for taking too much time in the bathroom or socializing a bit with employees, but in a case where you're on the road in company property, that is a very different situation.

Seriously Sims, Give It A Rest-Boundaries.

[Anonymous Coward]

"How is this an issue? Explain to me, please, how having oversight of the people you're supposed to have oversight on is a bad thing?"

Because the brave new world is predicated on the idea, that freedom means no constraints.* Something that's completely counter to what constitutes a society. Let alone the universe.

*Constraining the other guy's OK.

Not just using GPS ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Here in Australia I was having a conversation with my local Telstra account representative. As we were discussing some cellular products, one of the services he offered me was asset tracking.

I was stunned when he explained that they could capably track mobile phone handsets and were offering the service to corporate accounts as a value add. Now I thought that this kind of functionality was only made available to emergency services, but apparently others can gain access to the service.

Note that while this is only for tracking a specific companies assets (ie you can't track a handset that is owned by someone else) people with mobile phones that are corporate assets still tend to carry them everywhere (we have some dedicated people who believe in going the extra mile).

This does not require any special handset. It works with the handsets people already carry and use. It would not be difficult for other corporate organisations to enable this feature and monitor the activity of their staff.

Re:Not just using GPS ...

[syslog]

Yup. We (Agilis)actually sell software that uses this value added functionality that some large telcos provide. Allows companies to not only track their workers, but geofence them (can't go here, can only go there etc). Also beams daily jobs down to them so they can go about theie business using just their cell phones.

naeem

Re:Not just using GPS ...

[kLaNk]

Yeah, but if it is what I think it is it doesn't use GPS but rather just what cell that specific phone is currently using. Not nearly as accurate as a GPS solution (yes, they were on the east side, but if they in the porno shop or meeting with a client down the street we can't tell).

Re:Not just using GPS ...

[itmo]

Actually our company (www.indagon.com) has some of the guys from a well known large mobile phone and network manufacturer who were doing that kind of stuff before they started Indagon. Most of that tech is already quite old and well-known. I thinkt he first setup was 1995 in Finland. Getting a fix in normal conditions takes about 10-20 seconds and it is accurate from 100m to 1km depending on the quality of the network. With some tricks and better technologies that accuracy can be improved. Our tracking system uses cell location as a fallback if GPS fails for some reason. 3G networks will have that function built-in, for GSM networks you have to buy a separate box called GMLC and some other boxes to enable the position calculation from different network elements. It is fun to look at some TV series like CSI or so when they track people using mobile phones and come up with "damn, I couldnt get a fix, he ended the call too soon". The joke is that taking the fix takes only 10-20 seconds and most of that time goes into fetching the data from the network that the PHONE has already sent there to get service in the first place. The phone has to be on and registered into the network for this to work, but a call doesnt have to be active.

Mod Down -1, Anti Italian Slur

[Anonymous Coward]

I love how these old stereotypes of Teamsters as greasy guinea mobsters is "funny" on slashdot.

These types of jokes aren't funny or accurate anymore. Italian-Americans are people just like the rest of us. Please stop with the ethnic slurs.

Re:Mod Down -1, Anti Italian Slur

[Anonymous Coward]

I love how these old stereotypes of Teamsters as greasy guinea mobsters is "funny" on slashdot.

Me too! I think they're hilarious. More more more!!!!

BTW, what's it like to have such thin skin?

Re:Mod Down -1, Anti Italian Slur

[Anonymous Coward]

Fucking guido.

Re:Mod Down -1, Anti Italian Slur

[Anonymous Coward]

Italian-Americans are people just like the rest of us.

woot! peed my pants thinking about that one. Odd how you classify the geeks on slashdot (i.e. "the restof us") as people! you KNOW that is crap.

P.S. Ever seen a mostly respectable Italian?
me neither.

P.S. Get rid of the Italian-American tie-in. Either you are American or you are not. Lose the purse strings to your former homeland. Either live here free in all it's glory or get back to your motherland. Not racist, facist or otherwsie. just pick your place to live and don't expect something special because you might have relatives born elsewhere.

This is no different to what other bosses do

[jonwil]

For example, if your job is to use a computer all day, your boss has a right to know what you are using the computer for (i.e. are you using it to work or are you using it to look at pornography or slashdot or to play solitare).

Its the same thing here, these employers want to know where you are when you are on company time.
If you are not where your job requires you to be, you are not doing your job and therefore you can be fired. Simple as that.

This is not "big brother". This is an employer wanting to make sure that when you are at work, you are doing your job.

It had to be said . . . .

[SupremeTaco]

I, for one, welcome our GPS tracking overlords!

Anyhoo, having been in charge of others at some point, you start to see these things a little differently. People WILL goof off if given the opportunity, and I've invested too much time and money in my company, to have someone waste it by being somewhere they shouldn't.
It's simply protecting your investment, nothing more.

Re:Plantation foremen spied on slaves via telescop

[rackhamh]

Those slaves could have just sought work elsewhere if they didn't like the conditions.

Oh, wait...

Tracking is not a bad thing

[slakdrgn]

While knee-jerk reaction is to ban these type of devices from a good amount of people, they can be of great use.

You have to figure, your at work to work. Weather its working on code or delivering packages. Now, a break every now and then (web surfing, or stopping by a 7-11) is most likley not a bad thing (depending on how anal your boss is), however, you still are there to work. Surfing porn all day or going to your girlfriends house to get laid when you are suppose to be driving is not exactly a good thing.

I doubt, however, that most of these companies are using them to spy on their drivers, the benifits (better schedualing, accident handling, tracking if stolen) are outweigh the drawbacks for people yelling about their privacy. Its the way things are heading, and if done right, can make things a bit better.

Now, if your boss installs GPS in your personal car, or tracks your work/personal car during allowed personal hours (some companies give cars for work/personal use, such as Harris), then thats a whole different story. I know people will whine from me saying this, but if your that disturbed that your FEDEX truck you drive is being tracked via GPS, then you need to find another job.

Re:Tracking is not a bad thing

[winwar]

"I doubt, however, that most of these companies are using them to spy on their drivers, the benifits (better schedualing, accident handling, tracking if stolen) are outweigh the drawbacks for people yelling about their privacy. Its the way things are heading, and if done right, can make things a bit better."

You know, the privacy aspects don't really concern me (I'm at work anyway...) These systems, IF USED INTELLIGENTLY, can be great. If the point is to determine system bottlenecks, route improvements, etc. and then IMPLEMENT them, great.

But all too often they are used as a means to "encourage" people to work faster without common sense (gee, you took 60 seconds at that stop, we only want 45 seconds-I don't care if you had to deliver 10 100lb boxes 200ft up some steps....) Or improvements are never made because that takes real work and is likely to step on some important persons toes... People get lots of numbers and forget that how fast you can do things in the real world depend upon things out of control of the employee or that the employee is a person who has good and bad days. That is why I think people hate these systems. This is the reason that I am leary of them.

the alternative is you would

[cyrax777]

be looking for a new job real quick and possibly end up in court for vandalizing company assets.

Now I'll Never Get My Packages

[buckhead_buddy]

This is definitely an anomolous situation, but I bet it'll only add to my problems in the future.

My addresss is almost impossible to find. Physically, it's nestled back in some woods and looks somewhat like the entrance to the (Adam West/Burt Ward) Batcave. The problem is that it's also next to an expensive club that wanted a more exclusive address and was able to get the short extension of road we sit on changed to the exact name of a more expensive road nearby. This was an insane political maneuver, but money talks and they wanted an address that sounded exclusive rather than redneck.

All of the locals and long time residents can find my address if I tell them the "wrong" address. Map readers or locals who are told the "correct" address won't find it because they go to an address on the other road that's slightly transposed numerically from my house number.

The utility men use long time residents to read my meters but if I go into an office to pay my bill and ask them to look up my address I have to be prepared to wait for 30 minutes of tellers asking managers for help in finding the information.

While I can see why a manager would want to have full control and knowledge over a delivery person, I bet this will have a detrimental effect on getting my packages delivered. I already tell people to avoid sending me things via FedEx since they repeatedly can not find any address I give them. I'll send a few packages by UPS after this policy goes into effect and see if I need to add UPS to my "DO NOT SHIP" list.

Re:Now I'll Never Get My Packages

[Anonymous Coward]

All of the locals and long time residents can find my address if I tell them the "wrong" address. Map readers or locals who are told the "correct" address won't find it because they go to an address on the other road that's slightly transposed numerically from my house number.

So it sounds like what you're saying is that when you give your address to people, they find one that's close and assume that it's yours? Do you know a lot of stupid people? You do know that you can call FedEx when you're expecting a package and give them directions, right? And if you already know that people to whom you give your address will have a problem finding the place, common sense suggests that giving directions would be a good idea. A little proactive effort on your part will prevent you from appearing to be a lazy bastard. Deal with the problem instead of whining.

-ac-

Re:Now I'll Never Get My Packages

[NumberGod]

If they're putting GPS in their trucks, why not ALSO give them your Lattitude / Longitude.

This should make you EASIER to find?

Is this not obvious? :-)

Re:Now I'll Never Get My Packages

[TykeClone]

Reminds me of a story I heard about OnStar.

It seems there was a guy up in North Dakota out ice fishing that locked his keys in his pickup. He had OnStar, so he called them up and asked that they unlock the truck so he could get in out of the cold.

The operator said "Uh. Do you know that you're in the middle of a lake?"

Re:Now I'll Never Get My Packages

[LaCosaNostradamus]

You omitted the highly positive consideration that the IRS, BATF, INS and other 3- and 4-letter fascist agencies probably can't find you either.

GPS Tday, Brain Implants Tommorow..???

[Anonymous Coward]

Someday, when people have brain implants that can connect to the net, and help you think faster etc, then the bosses of the future will want the ability for them to monitor that you are spending 100% of your time thinking about work...after all, the GPS and its cousin iGPS (implanted GPS) has been in service for decades and everybody knows that your boss can "GPS" your location at any time and the computers at work can figure out if you are doing your "proper" work (the AI can do some analysis of your work patterns and assignments for the day/week).

The AI's also have the ability to figure out how efficient you are on mondays and if you have been "legally engoying yourself" with apporved recreational chemicals on the Weekend by analyzing when you take a leak in the wahsroom etc. Now that the whole world monitors what you do, just forget about your privacy, the concept doesn't extist in the late 21st century.. ..sort of remindes me of a essay I wrote on grade 12 english 30 years ago, it almost got me kicked out of the only computer course at the school (before the PC existed, we had a $30K Hp computer at the school use to teach basic), the essay said that we could get tracked in the future by barcodes and the comp science teacher found out about it a just flipped out as the english department got really scared of the implications of this fictional essay (the comp science teacher was trying really hard to get the whole school to accept computers), although I must admit, I made the essay much like "the war of the worlds", so be-ware when you write fictional accounts, some people may beleive them...

Re:GPS Tday, Brain Implants Tommorow..???

[Anonymous Coward]

if the AI can figure all that out then why would they need you to do any thinking at all?

big brother is the wrong term-that applies to human beings being on the other side of the screen.

In reality we are making AI guardians for ourselves.

Re:GPS Tday, Brain Implants Tommorow..???

[ricka0]

if the AI can figure all that out then why would they need you to do any thinking at all? from a cynical point of view... a busy population is easier to control....?

Good for employers

[dschl]

How does it differ from an employer viewing the logs to see which websites I visit during the day, and how long I spend doing it? Or your grocery store counting the number of items scanned per hour by a checkout clerk? Or a weekly review of sales figures for car salesmen? I believe that it doesn't, and it is routine to expect employer oversight in a workplace - this is merely a new form, that's all. The employer is paying you to do a task, using their equipment - it is reasonable for them to ensure that you are doing it properly and safely. Their shareholders and insurers expect no less in order to maximize returns and minimize risk. Got a retirement savings plan, and expect high annual returns? That makes you a typical faceless shareholder.

There are other places where it would be handy - transit systems could use it to nail bus drivers who decide to run 5 minutes early, or catch up from time lost on their cigarette break by driving recklessly. I've experienced a city bus driver trying to make up lost time by driving a 10 or 20 ton bus more than 20km/h over the speed limit (faster than I routinely drive my car) - when I got off at the next stop I was sure to let him know that I didn't feel safe, and was waiting for the next bus solely because of his reckless driving.

If the location and time were logged , the transit system would have had solid data to prove how fast he was driving, and could have taken appropriate disciplinary action. Just knowing that the speed and timing data are recorded could add safety, and ensure that buses don't run too early or late. The only thing worse than waiting 15 minutes for a late bus is having to wait 15 minutes for the next bus because a driver chose to ignore his timing points.

Better employees?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe better employees aren't willing to piss away $50 per paycheck to support fatcat union bosses and/or the mafia?

The mafia just hires good economists

[Anonymous Coward]

They are very efficient about generating the most revenue with the least effort...kinda like a perl programmer. :-)

Cool advantages of this tech

[syslog]

We (www.agilissystems.com) make software that can GPS track cell phones and beam jobs down to them. There are some pretty cool advantages to this tech beyond just tracking people. The following illustrates this:

One of our customers is a large midwest grocery chain that has a fleet of trucks that deliver all kinds of groceries to their stores. All the drivers carry our GPS tracked cell phones - the cell phones lists the jobs (deliveries) that the driver has to do that day. As soon as a driver is done delivering at one store, the system automatically calls the next store in line (using VOIP via Asterisk, no less :) with the estimated arrival time. The store preps its loading dock to receive the truck. This allows them to turn the truck around quicker than they could otherwise. This leads directly to significant savings (more deliveries per truck, fewer drivers needs etc etc). They don't care one zot of where their drivers are, just that their stores are ready to unload their trucks when they arrive.

</shameless plug>

Oh, and a quick note. Don't be fooled into thinking thats its only GPS enabled devices that can be tracked. We can (and do) track *regular* cell phones using cell tower triangulation as well

-naeem

Alternatives-A Pound foolish.

[Anonymous Coward]

"What if those "computed GPS values" were to be altered before transmission to the employer computer systems? Or maybe a jamming device to interrupt the transmission signals for a brief period of time?"

Maybe the better question is? Is the time and effort that goes into getting out of work greater than the time and effort resulting from doing the work in the first place?

Re:Plantation foremen spied on slaves via telescop

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh? Where in the article was it said that these GPS systems were immediately being used as a means of spying? Who said anything about depriving the employees (not slaves) of their right to eat?

You're an idiot trying to push an agenda in a story where it isn't even remotely applicable.

Nothing new

[danuary]

We equipped a fleet of vans with this kind of thing in the mid 90's. Seemed like a great idea -- GPS antenna and the van would radio its position to a central computer. We could tell which van was closest to a given job and assign it; the vans had laptops wired in as well.

Everything went great until the first guy got fired because he was caught fishing (seriously) while on the clock.

Shortly thereafter the techs realized the system could be defeated by wrapping the antenna atop their vans with tinfoil. Management surrendered. Gave up on the idea. I think they probably wasted a couple million on it by that point.

This is no different to what other bosses do-Goose

[Anonymous Coward]

"This is not "big brother". This is an employer wanting to make sure that when you are at work, you are doing your job."

Hmmm. So how do all the outsourcers know that they're "getting their moneys worth"?

When can I get one?

[mr. methane]

I sometimes have to find equipment installations in unfamiliar areas, and during off-hours. It isn't exactly a pleasant feeling driving down a poorly-lit street looking for a poorly-marked address, working off a map that may or may not be correct. I would LOVE to be able to call up someone at the office and say "am I at the right place?"

The teamsters *have* to fight it; if they ever portray any change as being beneficial for their membership, they give up the bargaining position and their cut of cost savings or profits that are available. That's simply what they do for a living. It doesn't have anything to do with whether the change is good or bad.

Re:When can I get one?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's fine and dandy, if YOU have the option of turning on the damned thing when YOU need it and keeping it off the rest of the time.

Bah

[Gorbash You]

I work for Roadway at a terminal in Bloomington California. I do not drive trucks, but I load them and I am a Teamster. It's hard for me to believe that the GPS systems are being used to monitor employees for abuse of time or whatever. On the dock that I work on we probably damage close to a million dollars worth of freight per day, with no repercussions. We also have cameras, but they can only be used for damages and theft, they cannot be used for abuse of company time, so I'd think the GPS rules would apply in the same way.

Re:Bah

[gcaseye6677]

I bet they'll also make sure the data can't be used by federal prosecutors investigating mob cases. Otherwise that would pretty much be the end of the Teamsters.

Re:Bah

[lew3004]

$1,000,000/day damage with no repercussions? You buttheads don't need GPS; you need different jobs. I guess it's not hard to believe you're a Teamster; after all, your job is safe, right? I'm glad you posted though....at least I know where NOT to send my business.

Police surveillance

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems I read about this 5? years ago, the police cars got GPS and could be tracked by their dispatchers. Police were annoyed to be tracked to donut shops, and sometimes at night they would converge and have friendly chat fests behind certain shopping malls, instead of looking for terrorists like they were paid to.

Case of watching the watchers.

As someone associated with UPS...

[ObiWonKanblomi]

This is a by-product of UPS's Industrial Engineering unit with the aim of not keeping an eye on their employees as much as making sure packages are sent as quickly as possible.

Without this unit you wouldn't have packages sent as quickly to you thanks to their research in creating systems to determine the shortest land route to deliver as many packages as possible or track packages accurately.

This is with the aim of helping deliveries of your amazon product or thinkgeek gear get to you as quickly as possible. What's the problem with that?

Who will track the trackers?

[JustOK]

Huh? Who? How are the bosses going to make sure that the people tracking the other people are actually tracking them? Work is still slavery. You do what we say or you die. S'ok if bosses missappropriate money and cheat the government and take your job and give it to someone else, nothing personal, mind you, just following business practices, but you better not take an extra few minutes at lunch.

Re:Hasn't This Been Common With Truckers?

[reallocate]

A slowdown would not work. The time it tool to complete a job wasn't determined by the drivers.

In reference to that trucking company, the company mandated that drivers adhere to the posted speed limit (their actual speed was tracked), follow predetermined routes, etc. Drivers couldn't drive more than a specified number of hours each day (8, I believe).

In other words, the company said "Take this truck from A to B, starting at such-and-such a time and arriving X hours later." They knew the route, the speed, and, hence, duration.

Drivers didn't mind adhering to speed limits, loved the fact they had regular non-arduous hours, and the company could use its equipment much more efficiently because it always knew the location of each driver and truck. E.g., a truck could be loaded with a new shipment at the same time and place it offloaded. Drivers weren't being paid to drive empty trucks around.

Mr. Hammer, meet Mr. Nail

[jafac]

Like any Technology, it has it's Good uses, and it's Evil uses.

I don't mind my boss watching me to make sure I'm doing my work. As long as someone's watching my boss, making sure he/she's doing his/her work.

More often than not, this isn't the case, unfortunately.

What a surprise

[drinkypoo]

I used to work for a company called Mobile Information Systems, which purchased the part of the company I worked for, called ADAQ. ADAQ sold really shitty, kludgy, and generally poorly written and documented delivery routing software that ran originally on SCO Xenix-286, then on the 386, and eventually SCO UNIX. (This tells you how long ago they started up... Also, it was in Santa Cruz.) By the time I had got there, they had added support for MDTs, or Mobile Data Terminals. In their then-current incarnation, you installed an antenna farm ob the roof and did your own radio communications. Most of the MDTs resembled an old tandy laptop with a 5x80 (character) screen or so, and they usually had one or more serial ports for peripherals like light pens and so on. Other than that, the software mostly did Least-Cost Routing (LCR) and shipment management, printed labels, and so on.

Mobile Information Systems (hereafter "mobinfo" after their domain at the time, now squatted upon by seeq) sold a similar product which ran on Solaris and which had a X11 front end. This software did everything the other did, and then some. This was about ten years ago.

Given this, I am shocked and amazed that UPS and basically everyone else isn't already doing GPS monitoring of their entire fleet, especially since even at consumer rates you can get unlimited GPRS internet for $15 or $20/mo.

I don't know whatever became of that company but if it's still being run by the same group of guys, don't do any business with them. The product was okay, maybe (mobinfo's, not adaq's, which was crap) but they simply had no clue and were a bunch of dicks. I got up at 0500 and drove over highway 17 so that I could get there at 0600 for my once-a-week early shift to find a suit in the parking lot with my last check. I had basically been relegated to solving their UUCP problems because they wouldn't let me do the minor sysadmin-type stuff that needed doing that had the supposed admin of the place (a clueless stoner) completely baffled, including sone UUCP stuff I had figured out on my 286 running Xenix when I was 14. They couldn't seem to find the time to teach me anything else about the product, so that was pretty much all I could do, and there was no knowledge base or other repository. Idiot management is not exactly new but we're talking about a company of about 20 people here, which is less than horrendously complicated to manage.

Ordinarily I don't burn bridges but I only do computer work on a consulting basis now as I have chosen to move into a field which is even more lucrative these days - automotive repair. I definitely would not want to work for anyone above a grunt involved with the ADAQ side of things in any capacity, especially the new boss-man mobinfo sent to fuck things up shortly after my arrival.

Earlier story

[Trailer Trash]

Monitoring Law Enforcement

Choice quote:

In 2001, three Clinton Township, N.J., police officers were suspended from their jobs, and charged with falsifying records, after a disparity was discovered between the officers' written logs and GPS data.

I hate to sound like an employer, but I really get the feeling that the only people opposed to this sort of stuff are those who are used to taking a little personal time now and then while working. The article above goes on to deal with FOP complaints. I don't personally understand why people think their job should be unsupervised, particularly those who work for the public.

Re:Earlier story

[Efialtis]

Keeping track of employees is not a big deal. Like some other readers have said, if you are on the clock, you are accountable...
The bad part comes in with stories like you describe, where police are falsifying records...
If they would have simply written, "10 minute jaunt over to deposit paycheck" then they would not have been suspended...they do, after all, get "smoke breaks"
For me, the problems come in when the government is using things like OnStar to track suspected vehicles, without court order or consent.
With just about everything being GPS embedded, you have to wonder who is really tracking your movements, and why.

Re:Earlier story

[Animats]

Only a badly-run department would have a problem with this. Dispatch is supposed to know where the cars are. It's easier on everybody if they have an automatically updated map. Otherwise there's constant radio chatter as Dispatch tries to manually keep track of where everybody is.

Re:Earlier story

[ppanon]

Not to mention that, if you're in a job where your very existence is a problem for ruthless people, (ie. police officers vs. crooks) you'd think you'd want your home base to be able to easily find you if something goes wrong.

Sears already does this.

[sven_kirk]

They have GPS in a majority of thier service vans. They are working on putting it in all of thier vans. And if a last minute "emergency" repair call comes in, a call goes out to that driver in that area. This is not new or unusual people

Time

[yoshi_mon]

While I think everyone can agree that while your on the clock you should be accountable for your actions it should also be recognized that we are talking about human beings here. And while it seems to have become an antiquated notion I believe that humans should not be held to machine like standards.

That's the risk here in tracking the movement of humans in a human world down to the second. One only need look at a company like EA to see the type of abuse that can happen when this type of mentality becomes prevalent. And it's not just EA that does this, I'm sure everyone can relate to someone in management who would prefer everyone to act like good little robots rather than the human beings we are.

Re:Time

[lew3004]

The pedulum does swing both ways and while agree with you on several points you have to remember that this type of technology is most likely used on the other end of the spectrum. Personally, as a manager, I look for productivity and efficiency as it relates to humans; not machinery. If, while using this technology, I find a discrepancy of 30 minutes so be it. If I find 2 hours, game on. However that's just me.

Re:Time

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm opposed to it simply because of the possibilities for abuse. The person doing the monitoring would most likely be another employee (the boss has too much other stuff to do to be bothered with monitoring people all day).

So, the EMPLOYEE doing the monitoring could blackmail others, could let his friends get away with goofing off, or could monitor you very, very closely trying to find fault because he hates you.

No sir, I don't like it.

honestly now

[kardar]

The idea obviously appeals to some people.

Other people don't like it.

Either you like the idea, don't like the idea, or are somewhere in between liking or not liking the idea.

In order to be happy at your job, or life in general - in order to be able to set any kind of goal for yourself at all regarding what type of environment you would like to work in you need to just be honest about where you stand on the issue. It's really not that big a deal, other than if you like the idea, you should try getting a job somewhere that uses this type of thing, and if you don't like the idea, then you should set a goal to try to get a job someplace that doesn't use this type of thing.

We see a lot of the "If you can't make it working here, then you won't be able to make it working anywhere" rhetoric, or the "every place of employment is just like us with regards to the things you don't like about working here", which is, of course, complete BS, unless you start believing it. Quit because you CAN. Not because you hate your job, not because you can't take it anymore, quit because it's your right to do it; quit because you can. More power to 'ya. It's good to quit your job often; it breeds self-confidence.

The possibility that there is only one individual - YOU - that feels a certain way about something is extremely remote. This is a situation where there is no universal wrong or right, just people who either like the idea, don't like the idea, or are somewhere in between liking or not liking the idea. It's as simple as that. Any employee is always going to be more productive in an environment where he or she feels more comfortable. There is no one right answer here, it's just that each of us needs to make a choice. No one should feel compelled to spend the rest of their life around people whom they don't get along with and don't have anything in common with, should they? Especially if there are other, better, choices of friends, coworkers, employers, spouses, etc... out there. Grab the bully's underwear and pull it up over his head, then tell him to leave you alone.

Just chill out and get a job someplace where you feel comfortable, or just don't worry about it. Rather than channeling your anger and frustration *against* the devices, channel your motivation towards surrounding yourself with people that are like-minded, employers, co-workers, friends, etc... with whom you get along and share similar values. Like I said, the likelihood that you are the only person that doesn't like this kind of thing is extremely, extremely remote if not entirely physically impossible.

No, no, and Hell no!

[Anonymous Coward]

You track animals and criminals. I'm not either one. If you trust me to do my job, fine. If you don't trust me, then why the Hell did you hire me?!? I'm not about to be tracked like a damned criminal, so find somebody else to do your job.

We have to stop this now or it will only get far, far worse in the future. I say nip it in the bud now!

It is not a "big brother" as you might think

[snero3]

I currently work for an road side assistants company (you know the guys that come out and help if your car brakes down) and we just install GPS in all of our vans to;

1. Help the drivers find the sight quicker (fast turn around is paramount for us).
2. Track the contractors that make up 80% of our fleet at certain busy times of the year

Yes I know that point 2 seems a bit big brotherish but really we had no choice. We are not for profit organization where all the profit we generate goes back into making the service a better service and it was found that the contractors we hired during the busy seasons where making up to 60% of our costs I was also found that 70% of the contractors would find a nice shady spot to park for majority of the day and take maybe one or two jobs that day which that would later claim took up the majority of their time.

I know there are other ways to make sure they are working IE commission basis. But that turned out to be fundamentally unfair as it is was really pot luck if your sector was busy that day or not. So the only really way to make sure we where getting value for money was to track them and make sure they where doing what they claimed to be doing.

Re:Real purpose of GPS

[Anonymous Coward]

The purpose of these devices is not to spy on employees

Yeah, sure, okay. If you say so.

MOD PARENT UP!!!

[Seraphim_72]

By the reading of these posts it makes me wonder if any of them have ever worked in a factory that controls production or not, or maybe they have and actually believe in the mentality. People are not machines. "Oh the quota is 30 widgets a day" and after you get really good at your job, "Oh, now it's 40 widgets per day" then 45, 47, 50 - till you are working like a fiend the whole time through. "But you are on *my* dime!" Uh, huh, tell you what on the 26th lets have Boxing day here at the plant and we will see what the color of your dime is, and we switch paychecks too by the way. "Geez bob, you have been delivering 100 packages a day for weeks, today was only fourty, we are going to have to do something about that." Boss? The roads were solid ice. "Bob, when you are on my dime, you will deliver 100 packages a day, you can stay till they are delivered or forgo your christmas bonus for missing quota."

But, nah, I am sure that is just tin foil stuff, no one I know who has done factory work has ever run into stuff like that. And I am sure that they will make allowances for running to daycare to move a sick kid, stopping to help an old lady, drop off a donation to Tsunami victems, businesses are big hearted that way, thats why the unions rose up isn't it?

Sera

Re:Real purpose of GPS

[elpapacito]

Therefore I guess it will not be a problem to promise in a written contract that the data will not be used against the truck driver.

We use these in our trucks

[papasui]

I work for one of the major cable companies and all our company vehicles have a gps in them. The techs weren't told when they were first installed. We watched a guy drive in a 4 block circle for 3.5 hrs. Get rid of the dead weight. The other big thing people are missing here is the safety aspect to having a GPS in fleet vehicles. Somebody is missing in poor weather, you can find them quick. We had a guy fall off a ladder and broke his leg and couldn't move. When he was late for his job we found his truck and had a tech go out there to see if he was ok. Who knows how long he would of been there (and it was a very cold day, -10F).

Good!

[Cervantes]

Damn good!

We started using these devices at the office supply company I work at, and I'm glad. We routinely pay our furniture installers huge dribbling gobs of overtime, when all you have to do is drive by the local Timmies or McDonalds to see them goofing off on a 3 hour lunch break. But now, with GPS going in, they won't be able to bugger around like that. It's refreshing.

On a more productive note, we're also using it to start mapping out our office supply delivery routes, to look for ways we can increase efficiency in the routing. Again, I'm all for it.

It boils down to "you're being paid to do a job, so get off your ass and do it". When you're working outside the office, you're still WORKING. If I have to put up with our outside sales reps taking 3 hour lunches, then getting their dry cleaning, picking up their kids from school, doing their shopping, going out for coffee, heading home, and coming in the next day complaining about how they didn't get home till 7 last night, I'm gonna start shooting, I swear.

Now, there's an important difference between outside folks and Internal/Geek work: it's piecemeal. "You have x tasks to complete today. Get them done." If getting done early meant I got to go home, I wouldn't complain in the least about monitoring where I was... but, for most geeks, the truth is they just want you there to fix the stuff they break, and make their little blinky boxes do cool stuff, and apart from that, they don't really care how hard you work... at least, at most of the places I've been. Hell, they aren't bright enough to understand how hard we work (or don't work).

Now, as for those schmucks who want folks carrying a GPS cell phone around at all hours... if you're paying me for 24 hour call, I'll be on 24 hour call, but where I go when I'm not on "normal work hours" is none of your damn business. That is taking it just a wee bit too far for my taste. I think the important question we forget to ask is "why"? Why do you want me to be on 24 hour call for free? Why do you want GPS on me all the time? Why are you logging all 'net access?

"Why" is a very important question to ask when you wonder if the situation is acceptable or not. In this case, "Why GPS on outside employees" is a no brainer.

Thanks Michael. I really needed an excuse to ramble on for 4 pages. My physical therapy bill is in the mail for my poor, worn-down typing fingers.

SHOCKING

[gl4ss]

not.

I find it quite surprising that ups hadn't had gps on all their delivery vehicles before. it's the only sensible thing for them, for tracking the packages, for tracking the people. hell, if you were a courier you'd WANT that device - the schedule is tight enough for you to not have time to sit on your ass anyhow(and if you had that, why not sit at the office anyhow).

"oo big brother wants to know where you're driving with possibly tens of thousands of merchandise", well, no shit sherlock. they're responsible for it.

Regular cell phones can be tracked just as well

[KiloByte]

We can (and do) track *regular* cell phones using cell tower triangulation as well

Yeah. According to a phreaker friend of mine, the average run-of-the-mill cell tower equipment can already track you with the accuracy of around 1m -- and it can be trivially improved to 1cm or better.

The thing is, the cell phone companies put really a lot of effort into claiming such tracking can not be done.

Re: not a criminal

[ducman]

Ah, but if everyone is a criminal....

Have you ever downloaded an mp3? If copyright infringment is a crime, you're now a criminal.

Have you used DeCSS to watch a DVD in Linux? That's a violation of the DCMA, and make you a criminal.

Have you ever driven a car after drinking one beer? In many states, 0.05% BAC is DWAI, which makes you a criminal.

I once lived in Chicago for a few years. While the guns I have are perfectly legal, where I live, now, just posessing them was a crime, while I lived in Chicago.

Point is, if your argument is that it's OK to track criminals, you might as well bend over so we can insert your tracker, now.

GPS/GPRS tracking devices

[itmo]

Actually our company (www.indagon.com) produces such devices. The terminal is a linux/GPS/GPRS device wit h a few megabytes of ram and flash. It can tolerate shocks and it can transmit a few bits of status data by itself, it has a controllable relay etc. It can also be used as a data link from the car via ethernet,NAT and GPRS to the internet or possibly company intranet.With tools like openvpn, this is a very good solution. The point here is that devices and tracking services like that have been received very well in different delivery etc. industries. While the teamsters and unions dont like them (they view them as big brother activity). On the other hand in some companies like taxies they view those devices as common day technology since they have been tracked for the past few years already. In addition to big brother tracking (fleet management as we call it) , the device gives you the ability to update you cargo list or maintenance records on the fly via GPRS, schedule new high priority jobs on the fly, navigate using the GPS and a laptop and so-on.

Re:Real purpose of GPS

[Prothonotar]

That's crazy. You know those devices secretely transmit gamma waves to control the drivers. No way is a company not interested in controlling every facet of their employees' lives. That's why all companies are formed in the first place.

Re:Real purpose of GPS

[LaCosaNostradamus]

That seems sensible, and fiscally prudent. And ... if you are a manager that has influence in this area, MAKE SURE IT STAYS THAT WAY.

Re:Real purpose of GPS

[SharpFang]

...and know where to send the helicopter to extract the truck from the traffic jam before the concrete gets hard. :)