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US To Push Criminalization of IP Violations
Dr.Hair writes "
Soon to be ex-Secretary of Commerce Don Evans speaks out on 'piracy' just prior to his last trip to China for negotiations. 'That means criminalizing the laws as opposed to (having) just civil laws...You've got to start putting people in jail.'
The article points out that this lust for prosecutions extends from Evans to his successor, the American Chamber of Commerce, and the US Senate. "
Now we can fill up our jails with even more people who are as dangerous as marijuana smokers...
You can't talk about Wikipedia's flaws on Wikipedia
I totally agree - we've got to start putting people like him in jail...
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Well, as long as they're consistent. Looks like maybe Bill Gates will be doing some hard time for the Burst patent violations, right?
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
We lead the way in crypto-facism this time!
China has "got to start putting people in jail" to show it is serious about cracking down on widespread counterfeiting and piracy that costs U.S. companies billions of dollars in lost sales every year, a top Bush administration official said.
Why should China want to stifle it's own economy just to please Bush?
That's just great. Put me in with the rapists, murderers, high level drug dealers... do what you've done to low level potheads for years. Throw me in with the rest. Though I'm not a criminal now, when I come out, I will be. "and I say to myself... what a wonderful world" (I was going to rant about this. I restrained myself)
Tim says: "please mod me up so my karma won't be terrible. Please?"
I for one agree with the largely European stance of no IP/software patents. I agree with RMS on the values of sharing. Before long, and at this rate, companies will literally own the government. The srtong lobby for software and IP in general serves only to line people's pockets.
The socialists are right on this one.
And don't even give me that crap about the poor programmer who is trying to earn a living. I, too, work in IT and have a family to support. In the end, IP serves to hurt the people rather than help them. The only people it helps are the shareholders and lawyers who prosecute and defend.
Sadly, as long as politicians are getting big contributions from the entertainment industry, the outlook for this kind of law is not so good because the real motivations are hidden and corrupt.
If you leave it as civil, then you MIGHT get something out of it from someone in a foreign country. At the very least, you can get it through obscure relations (through related subsidiary under the same parent company, that does business in the US...as an example).
Move it to criminal, and all you'll do is fill up the jails with people who are of no harm to society - since the only folks you'll get are local ones, and the real crap is happening in China and its neighbors.
For all the people who haven't thought this through yet:
When they come to lock you up, no one is going to stand up for you. Maybe the EFF will send you a Christmas card in prison.
The propaganda has worked. No one in the public at large has any notion of the rights and freedoms they are in the process of losing, let alone what they mean.
Society is 100% ready to accept zero-privacy, expensive, addled DRM solutions. They will have no sympathy for anyone doing a 4-8 stretch for "downloading." With one deft push from Comrade Gonzales, they will all line up to throw tomatoes at "developers of illegal software."
My advice for you all is to read early accounts of the rise of the Soviet state, and/or especially the transition years in Eastern Europe. Totalitarianism has a very recognizable feel, even in the very beginning, before you can barely feel its grip, you can smell it's breath long before it starts to squeeze.
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this title and /. article is highly misleading. did the poster rtfa?
this is about the usa pushing for china to start putting people in jail for counterfeiting. that IS widely acknowledged as "piracy."
sum.zero
For a change, I RTFA. They're pushing for the Chinese to start putting Chinese counterfeiters in jail under the rules of Chinese law.
While it might be a short leap for the same people to start calling for the criminalization of copyright infringement in the US, that's not what we're talking about here.
So that's why he's going to China. He wants to put people in jail in the US for spreading "illegal" ideas, just like they do.
Developers: We can use your help.
Before long, you will start seeing technology gangs being formed in prisons. They might be weak but they will gather in numbers and increase their percentage in the general population of the prisons.
Jail doesn't work.
They call it the Department of Corrections, which is pure political bullshit. They've never corrected anything.
It's necessary to remove violent offenders from society for societies safety, but repeat offenses are high. Being in prison doesn't "teach" or "fix" or correct the problem.
Yet in America, we've set the system up so that virtually every last citizen belongs behind bars under the law.
We can start jailing kids for running kazaa, and it won't solve the problem.
It'll just increase the tax burden for the handful of people who manage to not get caught.
Everyone has done one of the following: tried drugs, infringed a copyright, exceeded the speed limit, drank alcohol underage, bought a violent video game for someone under 18, etc...
Why don't we just run razor wire along the coasts and borders, and declare everyone incarcerated?
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
This is about pressure on China to make it a criminal violation.
Copyright infringement is already a felony in the US under certain circumstances...
Imagine the reaction if senior Chinese officials started calling for the internal laws of the US to be altered to suit Chinese business interests.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
Why don't they just put everyone in jail? Pretty soon they're going to have to convert whole cities into giant prisons, like in Judge Dredd, and similar things. Pretty soon only CEO's of large corporations and the very rich will be the only people not in jail.
Our new criminalizing and imprisoning overlords?
Rich people get the government to do it for them - whether it's clean up their messes, defend their economic, political, or religious interests, or prosecute their enemies.
Poor people have to do it themselves. I would sure love it if the government put more effort into prosecution for criminal fraud. But hey, if you're not a billionare, "that's a civil matter, son."
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Well, this might be a little early to be reading in what we're reading in, but as a side note the worst part of this is that if it goes through we'll be in effect paying the court costs of the *AA because prosecutors will be taking the cases.
On the other hand, at least the unjustly accused won't be run out of court for lack of council. The state will provide it.
adam b.
I'm honestly not for software piracy but this seems to pinch a nerv a bit.
We're filling up our jails with Pot users and Pirates. When does this start seeming to be a waste of taxpayer's money?
Looks like a way to reduce further tax revinue and increase costs to the (now fewer in number) tax payers.
Great job guys.
The most useful kinds of rules are the ones that everyone violates, and that are therefore unworkable. In other words - rules are made to be broken.
Those in glass houses should not throw stones.
This is probably a very very bad idea. While I do like the idea of putting someone in jail when they violate the GPL, my suspicion is that certian copyrights would be regarded as more important than others, namely those belonging to big corporations that contribute to campaign funds.
-- Knowledge shared is power lost. -- Aleister Crowley
Now we can fill up our jails with even more people who are as dangerous as marijuana smokers...
....
Oh, that's fuckin' great -- IP violaters and pot smokers, cheek to jowl in the showers.
God only knows what kind of criminal masterminds are breeding in those prisons
-kgj
-kgj
You can hardly make this into a vast right-wing conspiracy by mentioning Bush when practically everyone in Hollywood is a Bush-hating left-winger.
So given this change of policy, how many years would Bill Gates get in the slammer?
Or would this law only apply to those not affiliated with a large corporate entity?
piracy is not theft, in the criminal sense.You arent shoplifting to get tunes from the internet. Its infringing on anothers IP. This should stay a civil crime where it belongs.
Does anyone else see us heading back towards feudalism?
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Remember, kids, it's all about being tough on crime. If, for some inexplicable reason, crime continues to exist--you're simply not being tough enough. Throw more people in prison; make the sentences longer to keep 'em there. To hell with reform; make sentences punitive and harsh for the sake of scaring people straight. It'll work eventually, right?
1 out of 37 Americans have served time in prison. Our incarceration rates continue to skyrocket. How much more will it take for people to throw their hands in the air and say "Enough!"?
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
Maybe they want to criminalize it so extradition treaties will force other countries to send "pirates" to US jails. If an extradition treaty is ever finalized with China they'll be obligated to round up anyone the US finds violating the law.
Developers: We can use your help.
i don't see the point though, unless it's easier to convict a criminal case than a civil case and this would enable more criminals to be convicted... people pirate stuff to make money. they aren't out to physically harm people... they also know it's illegal... it's not like they decide that they will pirate since it's not criminal but a civil offense and stop pirating if it became criminal.
what good does it do to put them behind bars? why not change the system so that once convicted, they are fined so heavily to lose what they made and more instead?
>"...prosecutions, prosecutions, prosecutions."
can you say "red tape, red tape, red tape."? (is there an appaeals process in china? if so, then it can be "appeal, appeal, appeal." too.)
Ministry of Peace
Ministry of Love
Ministry of Truth
Ministry of Plenty
At least I can still buy shaving razors from the corner store.
Bush was up here in Canada last month (i think) twisting the arms of the Canadian Government to stop the sale of drugs online. Our gov't agreed and shut down a bunch of retailers losing about 4500 jobs in the process. So much for being an autonomous nation.
Coincidentally, the very next day, our beef was now allowed back over the border into the U.S. Even when they found ANOTHER case of BSE the very next day. hmmm. One was enough to kill our industry last year.. but this one's ok? I smell a rat.
As our now dead ex-Prime Minister Trudeau used to say, "Living next to America is like sleeping with an elephant."
I'm not anti-social, I'm anti-idiot.
That City 17 was just a nightmare in a foreign world. Who would have thouught it would be so real so soon?
BBI: So, what are you in for fresh meat?
SSF: You asking me?
BBI: Yea, you!
SSF: Tell me what you in for first then I'll tell you my crime.
BBI: Fine! Rape, murder and blew up a police station! Now you!
SSF: I downloaded a copy of HalfLife 2 and bypassed the copy protection.
BBI: Oh... er.. sorry.. we didn't know you were one of them "hard core" criminal types.. We'll be leaving now.
And in some countries already, the rich are paying people to go to jail for them.
At this point it'd be easier if the US just jailed everyone and sorted out the non-criminals.
But most countries in Europe have already long criminalized this activity. People are getting sued in the US, but places are getting raided in Europe. They signed the international copyright agreements just like everyone else. The real reason the governments don't seem overly concerned is that they do not nearly produce the worldwide revenue that the US film and music industry does. Therefore, they have little to lose from copyright infringement and little to gain by enforcing it strictly.
Put all the grammas and the 13 year olds in jail with the murderers. It's all the same. We don't want the "poor" label owners and producers to miss out on that new Ferrari, that would be a crime to leave them "unfulfilled". The artists who are underpaid will remain underpaid, it's the big guys upstairs who don't want to take a small cut in the million dollar salaries. They have all the legal and political connections. I am not saying the guilty shouldn't be punished but jailtime is a little too much.
The IFPI/RIAA/MPAA and it's current USA puppet the bush-government (and a lot of senators and other so-called representatives of the people) is fighting a lost cause. And I think they know it. If they would act specifically against mass-counterfeiting for commercial purposes then, certainly when health issues are at stake, it might have some validity, but everyone knows such laws will be used against all others as well, before you can blink your eye. And yet, it will go as with the war on drugs: something you can never beat, and something that is sustained with unvalid reasonings and making a lot of FUD.
/ freenet/website/pages/fairshare.php?rev=1.1).
First off all, I have difficulties with their acclaimed 'stealing' of music/movies. As far as I know, stealing implies that the one that has been stolen has been derived of something. When you take a copy, you do not take the original away, thus they have not 'lost' anything. They might claim that they loose money when ppl d/l music, but even that is far from certain.
Not only is it not shown statistically to have had that effect (they didn't even show a correlation thusfar - see aussie music-news - let alone a causality). Furthermore, in an individual case, they would have to show they actually lost revenue. Which is far from said, because I sure know some guys who d/l music, but would NEVER have bought that music if they were unable to d/l it. So, how did the RIAA/IFPI loose revenue, exactly? And if they didn't lose anything, how can the term 'stealing' apply?
It would still be copyright-infringement, ofcourse, but that's another matter. I think maybe it's time we went beyond our current system of copyrights and walk into the era of cyberspace. With the industrial revolution, patents and copyrights knew a high flight, maybe it's time to let it leave and try something new? Maybe something in the lines of this: fairshare (http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/*checkout*
And don't worry, contrary to what the RIAA claims, musicians will not starve to death, and music-making will not stop. We had music long before we had copyrights, and we will have music long after copyrights have vanished from the scene.
And lastly, it's something that *can not* be stopped. P2P progs and their development act as organisms that follow the darwinian rules of survival. When Napster was 'killed' by the RIAA, immediately others (like kazaa) took over, being more resistent to attacks from the RIAA&co. Whenever kazaa will be shut down, others again will take over. When endusers are targeted, systems that protect the user will become dominant (like FreeNet).
It really is a lost cause. But then again, they are not truelly battling for the survival of musicians (as I said; they will survive, just as they used to do), it's for their OWN survival they are fighting. There is no way in hell they are going to keep the giant profits that they have been gathering for the last decades.
But ultimately, they will have to do what P2P systems are already doing: adapt to the new circumstances (and forget about the former levels of profit), or whither and die.
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
Is breaking into a person's server or blogsite and messing with the contents any different from breaking in to a person's house/business and messing around? In both cases peoples "space" and privacy have been violated.
Is defacing a website any different from spraying graffiti on someones walls?
Engineering is the art of compromise.
So the Chineese govt. murders 800-2600 peaceful protesters in Tiananmen Square in Peking in 1989. They fobid women from having more than one child and force millions of Chineese women to have abortions. They support various thug leaders around the globe and insist they own Tiawan.
I know! Let's put pressure on them to put people in jail for stealing software.
Piracy is rampant in China and the problem is real, but it isn't killing anyone. Do any of these rotten bastards have any sense of proportion?
--This sig is in beta. Please let us know abut any errors you find.
I have no problem with criminal laws regarding piracy and IP as long as those are only for people who are doing it FOR PROFIT AND (not or) ON A MASS SCALE.
So factories in China silkscreening counterfeit DVDs that are being stamped out and sold apply.BUT, the law needs to be very clear and unambiguous that it can't be used against someone uploading for free on BitTorrent or just selling a couple copies to his buddies. Those violations need to remain solely in the realm of civil litigation. The government should not be in the business of enforcing IP rights.
Am I the only one who didn't switch mental gears from networking fast enough and initially parsed the headline as a referring to a different "IP"?
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
What, you're thinking of having this slogan tattooed on your backside?
I think Don Evans was not talking about people downloading music. I think he was speaking about companies in China who pirate software, movies, machine part designs, etc... and then sell them.
It is selling it that makes it different than downloading music.
is that they only THINK they are acting normal under the influence of weed.
Good lord, keep out of my neighborhood.
Sure, mod me down -1 flamebait for pointing out an undisputable fact, while the parent's nonsense is "insightful".
I guess I shouldn't let facts and the truth get in the way of yet another US bashfast. Not to mention what happens to opinions that don't happen to agree. What an echo chamber this place has become.
And you will have your ID cards to boot really soon now.
Setting aside your own personal feelings on the matter, what impact does rampant software piracy in China have on their status as a WTO member? I would think that some level of adherance to copyright/IP laws are a factor in maintaining good standing.
Anyone more informed than I have any thoughts?
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
As far as I know, only copyright infringement for commercial gain is a criminal offence, otherwise its just a civil offence.
Thank god for computers.
Remember folks, MS was convicted of infringing someone's IP..does this mean finally MS will face legal accoutnability for being a monopolist?
Don't Tread on OpenSource
MICHAEL IS logged in as CMRD TACO TODAY!
roxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxr!
"China has "got to start putting people in jail" to show it is serious about cracking down on widespread counterfeiting and piracy that costs U.S. companies billions of dollars in lost sales every year, a top Bush administration official said."
No kidding? You are just jaded, my friend.
DO I need to mention marijuana to keep from being labeled a -1 troll?
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
Fuck her right up the ass. Her rotted, fetid corpse should be strung up and burned for the damage she has done to society as a whole. There's no practical difference between a Scientologist and an Objectivist. They're both stupid utopian idealist nutbags who worship a dead savior who did nothing but self-aggrandizement and make stupid people think themselves all philosophical and deep.
Fuck Ayn Rand. Fuck anyone who follows Ayn Rand. Fuck libertarians, fuck the Club for Growth, and given the opportunity I would personally skull fuck Howard Roark.
You want a libertarian paradise then go live in Somalia you stupid cunt.
Next up on the Wolf Realivision Network: Bread Thieves Face a Firing Squad. But first, a month of messages from our sponsors.
Mutherfucker, please. China has nasty little North Korea on it's southern border to worry about. And it's got organized crime the likes of which piddly little Los Angeles gangs are not prepared to compete against. 70% of their country is as rural as Montana, with the other 30% being little islands of civilization and electricity. They have famine, diseases, traditional medicine (notably, a lack of progestrone contraceptives), and cultural conflicts that limit just surviving until tomorrow.
It's called priorities, and with all due respect, U.S. Commerce Secretary Don Evans can just feel free to chow down on crime all he wants to in China. I've got some illegal weponry that he is well suited for.
I used to think that China was just a corrupt place to do business, and I would never want to do business there. But then the "IP extremists" such as the RIAA/MPAA and all the IP lawyers out there got me to wondering if there really is any difference between the US and China in this regard.
In China, one basically has various types of overlords, which one has to pay off in order to get things done. And this is how it's been for thousands of years.
In the US, one basically has the same thing, in terms of "intellectual property". Yes, you have to pay them off if you want to produce a product. And this can be regardless of whether their "intellectual property" claim is valid or not.
So what, really, is the difference? The only thing I can think of is a cultural one. I really can't see any difference, and both forms of "overlords" get in the way of advancement.
And in case it's not clear, this isn't a troll. It's an honest question of simply shifting one's view.
I see the same thing happening with P2P apps. If Hollywood stays ahead of the curve, they can rid themselves of most P2P activity. Clearly they will neve eliminate it altogether but if they make it difficult enough people may prefer to pay. I guess time will tell.
But they, like many many other countries, all have signed international copyright agreements to protect each other's IP.
This goes beyond just the US and CDs and DVDs. For example, the Chinese were considering building a maglev train system. So the German companies ThyssenKrupp and Siemens build a prototype. Workers for the German companies videotaped Chinese engineers poking around at 3am. Shortly after, the Chinese said they would use their own newly development maglev technology for the trains instead of the buying the German tains. They may even be able to export maglev trains at half the price of the German or Japanese trains.
As usual, the summary is completely misleading. The quote was talking about China jailing their citizens for copyright infringement, not the US. I'm sure this summary was crafted to be flamebait.
Imagine, if you will, a slashdot where people read the article mentioned before they comment....
Reading at high threshold levels is group-think.
Thats just great! That way rather than forcing the large corporations to fund their own investigation, and prosecutions. We the people can. That way the corporations still get their profits. And not only the consumers, but the American tax payers lose.
Maybe this moron's plane will crash on the way to china.
Even thought the article is talking about China, should this doctrine ever spill into America it might actually make piracy easier; criminal convictions require a unanimous jury to find proof beyond reasonable doubt. Civil violations (if they even go to trial) require only a simple majority to impose a penalty.
I was reading somewhere that MS is Hell-bent on making China pay for software.
Ill-advised draconian measures like this one can only push more people in the planet's most populous country into using free software in general and Linux in particular.
Imagine Linux dominance on the Chinese desktop. This is a Good Thing.
If you're smoking marijuana in the privacy of your own home, I don't give a fuck. It's not my business. However, if you are high as a kite and get in your car, then it becomes my business. The same goes for drinking. I don't care if you do it in your own home, but when you get on the road it creates a problem. I think the laws should be the same for alcohol and marijuana (and similar drugs). Free to use in the privacy of somebody's home (or a bar, I suppose), but if you are caught driving under the influence you will be given no mercy. I still think "hard" drugs, like crack and heroin, should be illegal. However, I wish they would put more time into pursuing the dealers rather than the users.
Why don't just avoid all these legislative and political games and implement a final solution: Put all US citizens, no, better yet, all citizens of Earth into prison. That seems to be where the power-trip-politicians want most of the citizenry to end up anyway (just look at the Draconian, disproportionately enforced drug laws that penalize what people do to their own bodies). So, stop the games!
Or... maybe it's time for the US and the world to take a second, balanced look at IP law.
Naaaah! That would upset the prison industry too much and politicians wouldn't get to score their points and exercise their blood-thirst.
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
Copyright infringement is against the law, plain and simple... and I believe that violaters (to the extent that they can be identified with certainty) should be punished. Arguing that a person who didn't mean to cause harm shouldn't be punished is like saying that a person who holds up a bank teller with a fake gun shouldn't go to jail for as long
Then what would you do in the case of somebody who hears a song and then 15 years later writes a similar song, not knowing that he is subconsciously copying an existing copyrighted song? This has happened; Google Bright Tunes Music v. Harrisongs Music if you don't believe me. If copyright infringement becomes a crime, then every songwriter becomes a criminal.
Liberal == individual rights.
Conservative == property rights.
Whatever either of these groups says in support of the other's goal for the law is lip service to lubricate political persuasion.
I wonder what happens when things like "birth control and break pads" really do become IP. I know it's still science fiction, but I've heard a lot about how nano technology might be able to build objects at the molecular level. What do you think will happen when you can push a button and make anything you want for free? Will companies continue to push for criminalization? And if so how much can our natural movements be constrained before it becomes incredibly oppressive?
could never happen
My Linux Command of the Day site : LCOD
RMS doesn't sound so insane/wrong/ now, does he?
If you start with Don Evans and the rest of his kind.
Moron. its a civil issue for a reason. Its not a 'crime against society', nor should it be treated as such.
Jail time isn't appropriate. A reasonable fine, however is.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Doesn't China have enough to do locking up real threats like pro-democracy activists and falun gong practitioners?
I propose a new Constitutional Amendment, the 28th Amendment to the American Constitution:
For the crime of treason, for selling out to the enemy of the people, i.e., selling out his high governmental office to corporate power, Secretary of Commerce Don Evans shall be hanged by his neck in a public location until he is dead.
Write your Congressperson today in support of my proposed 28th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America! Do your proud and patriotic duty as an America citizen! The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of tyrants!
eat shiat and bark at the moon
It never ceases to amaze me how many people will try to justify or defend a person's "right" to infringe on copyright.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Since MLK's speech and the "happy birthday" song are copyrighted I am waiting for someone to say those in public that is obviously illegal so the public know it and thinks "they are not illegal, you can't do anything."
Why don't you guys have friends or journals?
This is so true.
Someone could go to jail for life without parole for:
1) Getting into a fight in the schoolyard when they're 16...
2) Getting caught with the microscopic resin of cannibus on a pipe that they found on the ground..
3) Listening to music on an iPod or Walkman...
Of course, it goes without saying that no rich, white, republican kid will ever be bothered by this type of insanity that passes for justice in the USA. Only blacks, latinos, and middle-class whites will be subjected to the guiding light of the American justice system.
It also goes without saying that the legislators who are pushing for these insane laws to be passed are being paid thousands of dollars in bribes ('campaign contributions') from the private prison corporations who will be making $30,000 a year for each new 'dangerous criminal' serving life-in-prison-without-parole in a corporate prison.
If you are a citizen of the European Community or some other stable country with a basic tradition of justice, don't come to the USA. Don't even visit here. It's just too dangerous. The republicans have just gone fucking nuts. Visit Canada (in the summer) or Mexico (in the winter). Avoid the USA. Seriously.
I just had to say it. =_)
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
If a person does direct damage to a company by stealing their source code and giving it to a competitor, that's one thing, but common "piracy" is the social equivalent of eating a couple grapes at the grocery store and not paying for them. Eating grapes without paying for them is wrong, but grocers just eat the minor loss and try to stay on their customers' good side.
It seems that the IP criminalization faction doesn't have the right priorities, especially given that source code theft, for example, is already handled by the FBI. Just look at all the stories about record companies still raking in tons of cash, in spite of "piracy." These people need a serious whack with a clue stick.
-- Microsoft is the most expensive commodity operating system and office suite vendor in the marketplace.
What intellectual property in brake pads? You can't copyright a functional part, and significant patents in that area ran out a long time ago.
I have one simple question: "Why should they?"
Think about it from a purely capitalistic view. What has the US ever done to China for trade violations of any kind? Nothing. Sure, we cry about deficits, slave labor, prison camps, and product dumping, but we do nothing.
Let's take a simple look at the problem:
We have a trade deficit with them.
We need products they make, because we no longer make them.
We have been convinced by groups like the Chamber of Commerce that MFN status would provide China an incentive to open trade.
China is currently on a course to make it the largest trading partner in the world.
This is not like isolating Cuba. We cannot afford to force any real sanctions. What little they do purchase from the US they will buy from the EU or US companies operating as EU companies. Even MS walks softly in China.
This is a pure puff piece meant to make Americans feel like their government is doing something. Why? Because we have become so narcissistically capitalistic, we would not dream of forcing HP or Intel or IBM to stop trading with China to enforce anything. Otherwise, they may force us to stop trading when something turns against them.
If a U.S. soldier can get six months for ordering some Iraqis pitch off of a bridge, then an offense for IP violation should SURELY be less than that, right???
Now before you inevitably mod me down for the previous comparison, actually consider it... and then consider who our government truly represent based on how it treats it's criminals in relation to their status of wealth and/or power in the system.
"Mistrust those in whom the urge to punish is strong."
The thing about these statements that bothers me is that the industries that are affected by the piracy are doing just fine economically. Movie ticket sales are brisk, CD sales are stellar, and people are flocking to concerts, paying top dollar to see their favorite artists, and yet the industry representatives are acting as though the entire future of American entertainment is in jeopardy. Is it, really? Pop stars and movie stars, as well as the executives of the companies that promote and use them, live lives of luxury that would make the wealthiest, most powerful emperors in the history of human civilization green with envy. They are flown from one 5-star hotel to another in private jets, and are drivin in limosines to the finest restaurants in town, treated like royalty by hordes of fawning, obsequious servitors.
I doubt that the lifestyles of the rich and famous are in any danger of bumping down a notch because a few street vendors in Beijing are hawking copies of their movies and albums.
You are in error. No-one is screaming. Thank you for your cooperation.
When I first read the headline I thought, "Finally some cooperation between the US and China over spamming, phishing and other IP-based dubious activities."
I should have known this was all about protecting the interests of a few large corporations and not having anything to do with making the world safer for everyone.
I respect the right of companies to protect their intellectual property. What disgusts me is the unnaturally high priority these issues have over more important problems which have less to do with corporate profit, but directly affect more people.
When China feels strong enough to tell the US where to go and how to get there. And from the rate things are going, that day is not far off, with the Chinese economy growing by leaps and bounds while the US is bled white in Iraq. Unfortunately, it will also be a sad day for Taiwan.
My rights don't need management.
or does it seem like making the maximum fine for copyright infringement the same as the maximum President Bush wants to cap non-economic damages from medical malpracice, seem a little out of whack?
Well you can murder someone, actually murder them and get 8 years as opposed to waving a laser pointer at a plane and getting 25 years. So it stands to reason that all you fuckwits who elected an administration who believes that a corporation has the same civil and legal rights as a person woyuld also champion laws that turn civil or contract disputes into criminal laws.
Next up; downloading music will land you in Attica.
It really IS time to overthrow the state.
Think of all the piracy here in the US where we have a cultural history which respects IP. You can download music, software, movies, etc, all for free. In cities it's quite common to be able to buy pirated movies and music. In other words, there is a LOT of piracy.
For decades under Communist rule IP was regarded as being owned by the people. In other words, there is no cultural background which required a respect of IP. In China there are no real music stores. Nearly all music sold is pirated. Artists make money from performing on TV and doing advertisements for other products. In fact I recently read an article where no one in China publishes a top 100 sales list for music because it'd be impossible to determine.
Putting Chinese in jail for violating IP simply will not work to change a 100 year old tide. All it would do is piss off a LOT of people and I doubt that the Chinese government would be willing to do that.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
I think that saying, "If you don't play fair, we'll put a tarriff on imports from China" is the prerogative of a government addressing international trade with a partner who's done little to address your concerns about illegal business activities.
500GB of disk, 5TB of transfer, $5.95/mo
For those who didn't RTFA, the article is not about making "piracy" a criminal offense in the United States (it already is, according to the "FBI Warning" on all my DVD's), but about U.S. pressure to get China to start making/enforcing laws against distributing copyrighted/patented material.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
If you go drunk with the intent to (ie. to muster up the courage to) assault somebody in particular, then maybe. Otherwise, get real.
I'm a white male, so clearly I'm about to offend the fairer half the population, but... How would you suggest China deal with its population explosion? A major news story recently highlighted the fact that China has just given birth to its 1,300,000,000th citizen. 1.3 billion people has very real consequences in terms of basic resource consumption (food, clean water, fuel/energy, etc.). China saw that, if they didn't do something, they were going to have very, very nasty problems down the line. So they're trying to get a handle on their population growth.
We who sit in our comfortably heated homes with an oil-guzzling SUV in the driveway and broadband internet going to our PDAs may tut-tut China's "barbaric" approach. But, in the final analysis, the only way to get the population count under control is to stop reproducing. How best to accomplish this? Government-issued procreation licenses? Mass sterilzation? File everyone into Carousel on their 30th birthday?
It's an icky problem, as it runs counter to our primal instincts. China's solution may not be the best, but then neither are any of the others. At the very least, they should be given some credit for having the courage to address the problem at all.
Donning asbestos shorts,
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
With the US pushing other countries to adopt their way of doing things and making citizens of other nations subject to their code of law, I think it's only fair that we should be given the right to vote in the US.
Over the years corporations have gotten a firm hold on political offices and the only thing they care about is squeezing every last cent out of citizens. Ever wondered why the US system of education is so abhorrent? It's a lot easier to supress and indoctrinate the uneducated. The rest of the world (a huge majority anyway) didn't want Kerry to win because they "hate the US" or something like that, they just have a clearer picture of what's going on inside the US and what the effects are on the rest of the world. A mojority of the US citizens just don't seem to care about that.
I was reading the parent's quote that we are telling China to put more people in prison for IP violation. At the same time, the US has been pressuring China over human right issues. I guess the message we are sending them is something akin to, 'Throw more people in jail, but be nice to them, too.'
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
is probably 'dissenters'.
I thought IP meant Internet Protocol... ... the Chinese are going to lock up every programmer who writes a dodgy protocol driver?
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
Say a company downloads some code from the Internet then decides to license this code to fortune 1000 companies, without having rights to license the code. Is this piracy?
No, it's SCO. The BSA is silent
Say another company downloads some code from the Internet, burns some CD, selling "licenses" of Windows 2003 server. Is this priacy?
Yes, it's piracy, because the BSA says so.
Piracy is piracy.
BSA get off your a** and look into it, or are you just MS lap dog.
BSA, the best justice money can buy.
Like most politicians Don Evans wants to criminalize the poor to support the rich.
If Copyright infringements were made illegal and cause of criminal action, wouldn't that take away some of the power of the RIAA? They would have to convince a government employeed attorney to press charges? Not that that would be too hard, but could chane the ball game.
That's it, I'm moving to Denmark!
Fact is, it is extremely unlikely that the Chinese would request that the US alter its laws.
That's because US laws are already quite favourable to Chinese business interests. Furthermore, US Corporations generally bend over backwards to accomodate their Chinese hosts. In terms of potential market size, US is a big fish, but China is a whale. Guess who's going to set the rules of the game?
In any case, I think we are beyond telling China to play by our rules or we'll take our marbles home, because they have enough marbles of their own and they play the game here too. "Enforce copyright or face sanctions" would not ever work. Sanctions haven't ousted Castro from Cuba after all these decades (even without Soviet support) and it wouldn't be so much as a flea bite for China.
Odd as it is to say about "Communist" China I'd venture to say an economic carrot would be more effective. If the US made a convincing argument that strict enforcement of copyrights would result in millions/billions more money to the government, then the Chinese government will be all too happy to throw street vendors in gulags and steamroll over their $2 copies of WinXP.
This is so ridiculous how these decisions are made. I'll bet cops are happy about this. It's much easier to disarm a geek rather than some knife-wielding, rapist murder high on PCP. Yeah, real good idea. Forget about all those murderers, rapists, child molesters, car jackers, wife-beaters, and common thieves. File theft is much more harmful to people and can really bring about the apocalypse if not stopped. All of this because movies and music are worth crap lately and those industries would rather put people away for not paying to than to actually put forth some taste and effort to make your business more profitable. Sweet freaking christ on a popsicle stick.
Warning: I am the silence machine.
Face the truth. This is not just about trying to put citizens in jail. This is being played on two fronts and why I think the government is willing to side with the media companies here. Real manufactoring is gone from the US and not coming back. Agiculture is leaving the US and not coming back. Raw material mining and fuel/energy sources are leaving and MAY come back at some point but not cost effective right now.. IP is the only thing corporate america has left in the new global economy. US can not compete and sustain the standard of living it has now with everything gone. IP is a last ditch effort and the government feels it has do something so we can still have a GDP. Of course we all know that IP can not support everyone in the US but the corporations and media companies (the few left after consolidation) are covered! Biff Tannon may really control the US soon.
This is so typical of the american arrogance. China has got to start looking out for US company interestes? China has got to start doing things that the US isin't even doing yet!?! To protect american buisneesses?
If I were a governing individual in China, I would be so upset about such a statement I'd make up some sort of law that imunises chinese hackers and IP infringers so long as it was all american material.
-Millions of Monkeys, Millions of typewriters, 6 hours of sorting through faeces encrusted pages to find: This post
China has 'got to start putting people in jail.'
So they can use them as slave labor to make cheap knock-offs of U.S. products?
this is loaner...my sig is in the shop
I agree, it's good to see some rational thought instead of the "anything having to do with IP or copyrights is bad and OMG laws are teh sux0r" mentality. Surely the Linux-loving Slashdot crowd would not be so keen on companies copying the Linux kernel and making tons of money off of it without respecting the authors and following the terms of the GPL.
The book "Les Miserables" detailed (partly) the plight of Jean Valjean who was convicted due to a "three strikes" law enacted in France.
I find it curious that we seem to have a government now where everyone wants to be police inspector Javert...
As much as the world changes, there is a lot that seems to remain the same...
I am not a book critic... but I hear them a lot on NPR
IANAL, but I've seen actors play them on TV
Just imagine the day where you can put people behind bars for incorporating GPLed software into free software that is not GPL compatible (say, apache). That might be a copyright violation, too.
And why stop there? Change the law to prosecute the end-users, and the entire Linux community can meet in jail after someone forgot to check a patch to the Linux kernel. Shortly thereafter, we'll catch Billy do the same, and we can just declare the US one big concentration camp and be over with it. Most people would probably not even notice the difference at that point.
Indeed.
;-)
Well, I object a bit to your analogy comparing P2P progs to bacteria (which makes it a pejorative thing), but to some extend you have a point.
Ofcourse, the comparison is rather arbitrary, so I could as well say that the RIAA and consorts are the bacteria, and as long as innovation like P2P progs keeps going, they can stay one step ahead. And if P2P coders stay ahead of the curve, maybe *they* can rid the world of most hollywood interference. And clearly they will never eliminate all paying customers that pay for over-priced CDs, but if they make it easy and safe enough, people might rather prefer to download it.
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
fsck'd
It happens all the time. Regular Chinese propaganda is ignored. Regular donations to the Democratic party cause a scandal no one has time to care about. The second calling earned China most favorable nation status under Clinton, so both internal and international laws were tuned to suit Chinese business interests.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
LAND OF THE FREE INDEED.
If this happens I will have finally found my calling in life...
Organizing Massive Civil Disobedience.
Or maybe I'll just move to a country that cares about 'People'.
If we can put people who abuse IP law in jail, (RIAA, MPAA, SCO, Rambus) in jail, then I'm all for it.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
There is, as of now, no such thing as overpopulation. The entire world population could live in Texas comfortably, and each family could have a relatively large plot of land, leaving the entire rest of the world for farming, industrial production, and resource gathering. China is not suffering from overpopulation. They are suffering from underproduction. The Chinese economy is too weak to support and feed the people who are being born. Also, their economic system doesn't always impose the costs of raising children onto the parents. That alone would stop population growth--people don't have children if they can't afford them.
However, the Chinese want to preserve their backward, inefficient amalgamation of fascism, communism, and crony capitalism. The only way to do that is by stemming population growth.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
There's a big difference between simple copyright infringement (as in making a digital copy of something you do not have the rights to) and counterfiting (as in making a fake copy for resale). Counterfiting is something that actually does cause loss of sales. People buy counterfitted copies in place of real ones, often unknowingly.
This is also another part of the problem, is it turns into fraud. A consumer buys software with the belief they are buying legit software and doing the right thing. In fact they are buying counterfit software and the money goes to the pockets of the counterfiters.
This is much more serious. I often compare copyright infringement to speeding, as I believe they are both about the same level of crime, and deserve about the same level of punshment. In the case of coutnerfiting operations I would compare it more to drunk driving, or at least reckless driving. It's a real crime with real harm that is easy to see.
So I can't see any reason not to support this. This isn't a case of people excersizing rights, or of information wanting to be free, it's just people ripping others off to make an easy buck.
I worked at a large entertainment company about 10 years ago. It seems strange to watch the reaction today, as I thought their behavior then showed they had learned that they only way to combat true piracy (that is, lost sales to piracy as opposed to piracy for piracy's sake) is to offer a product with superior quality. It seems those people have moved on.
Imagine the reaction if senior Chinese officials started calling for the internal laws of the US to be altered to suit Chinese business interests.
Like the Kyoto treaty?
Or GATT, which is already ratified, and is being used by Asian interests in an attempt to force changes in US laws. Among them: changing hunting laws to allow commercial hunting. (Among other things, there's a brisk trade in bear bile, which has medical applications in Asian medicine.)
Not to mention NAFTA which is forcing similar changes in other US and state laws. Among them traffic laws - to allow Mexican truckers to drive US highways with equipment and driver training far below the normal standards of most US states.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
OK folks, take off your tin hats...
People with a copyright on software are trying to enforce it, and would like the existing, criminal punishment for infringement enforced. Pop a DVD into your drive, or pop a VHS in and watch the FBI warning. See where it says "Felony" and "Violation of International Law?"
In China, and most other asian countries, you have 3-4 pirated copies of copyrighted software for each legal one, and these are sold on the street for a fraction of the cost of the real programs. The people buying them aren't told they are pirated (although most should know), and often call the software company looking for help, etc.
It already is a criminal offense to violate Copyright, something the Free Software Foundation has used and threatened to use in the past, but now that our government is asking China and other Asian countries, as well as our own, to enforce existing laws that benefit big corporations, small businesses and non-profit groups alike, and that protect your right to license and distribute your work in the manner you choose, it's suddenly a bad thing?
If your code is acting bloated, and is running rather slow, it's likely and predicted that some loops you will unroll.
The whole point is that, to Chinese industry (and Korea, too), every bit of hard intellectual work that the the western world does is simply considered free for the taking. They are building their economy on theft, and figuring that they can build up a culture of actual innovation some other day when they no longer have people smarter than them to steal from.
Oh, the irony.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Property is about to go from 9/10ths of the law to 10/10ths of the law.
_______
2B1ASK1
I suppose we could just release the murderers, robbers, and rapists to make the ratio more balanced.
The Land of The Free usually means that you're free until you start committing crimes. Everybody not in jail seems to be doing just fine.
You're free to leave.
If China doesn't comply, are the US government going to threaten them with banning imports of Chinese-made goods?
Ha ha ha ha ha. No.
Can you imagine the riots in the streets if the price of a DVD player went up from $30 to $100?
Plus, Wal-Mart would be forced to stage a coup-d'etat to ensure their own survival.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
These kinds of things should not be allowed to happen. Nobody wants to live in such a world.
Like they do in China.
Your corneas, kidneys, skin joints, etc. all told are worth around $300,000
Of course, then you have to die....
CRIMINAL!!!!
their economic system doesn't always impose the costs of raising children onto the parents. That alone would stop population growth--people don't have children if they can't afford them.
This is worth emphasizing.
One of the main reasons why first-world countries tend to have much lower birth rates than third world countries is that children cost money in the former but make money in the latter.
Almost all first world countries heavily subsidize health care and education, but 20+ years of food, clothing, and shelter, not to mention college education and all the little luxuries that are commonplace in our socities, adds up to a heck of a lot of money before our kids are ready to pull their own weight.
In third world countries, especially the ones with the worst population problems, there's not much in the way of college or luxuries for anyone. And in a society where most people are subsistance farmers, it's not very long before the little ones are old enough to help with the weeding, or to go to town and work in the Nike factory.
A legparnasom tele van angolnaval.
That alone would stop population growth--people don't have children if they can't afford them.
/., the idiots who reproduce when they can't afford to accidents aside), birth control is free or near free. Compared to having a kid those $1/pop condoms are an investment which will return many many times over, even if you do it many times each night. Male sterilization is also quick and easy once you have had your kid(s) that you can afford. We aren't going to stop people from screwing like dogs in heat, but lord people it's just a peice of plastic, a little hormone, or 2 little snips.
While I believe that we could do wonders if we could just reorganize as a world, not by moving millions of people around, but similar. However that line is a purly a joke at its finest. Have you ever noticed sometimes it's the poorest people who seem to have the most children? Not all of the poverty was caused by having a zillion children, it was there to begin with and they decided to put another mouth to feed in their house.
People (Not
The US--especially in today's globalized market--promotes the very idea of "piracy" by exploiting labor (intellectual, physical, etc.) for maximum profit. So, it's against the law to market advertised, idolized, and copywritten goods, but it is a wise business move to have a sweatshop in China manufacture your advertised, idolized, and copywritten goods? I think those "pirates" making some good cash and doing well deserve a medal for adapting to the constant pressure of the US consumer economy. Then maybe they can branch out and get some DVD labor camps setup in middle America since most of our blue collar jobs are tucked away over the border.
Not anymore. The "No Electronic Theft Act" (aka NET Act) of 1997 makes it a felony to reproduce or distribute copies of copyrighted works, even if there is no profit.
Cellmate A: robbery, assault with deadly weapon.
Cellmate B: downloaded Eminem on BitTorrent.
Figure it out.
Uh, no. Do the math.
Texas is 267,000 square miles. At 640 acres to the square mile, this yields 170,880,000 acres. There are 43560 square feet to an acre.
Current population of the Earth is estimated at somewhere north of 6.4 billion people. So, cramming 6,400,000,000 people on to 170,880,000 acres of land means every person gets roughly 1160 square feet to play with (completely ignoring, of course, the square footage needed for transportation, utilities, power generation, sewage treatment, etc. to serve all those people). Assuming you define a family as being four people, that's a whopping 1/10th of an acre.
Whoop-de-shit.
At our current level of technological and social development, it is ludicrous to believe any such thing could work.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
When your 2nd cousin uses your best joke at someone elses wedding you can get the bastard locked up..
We've been waiting for this for years!
Its called "reverse engineering". Everyone does it. People at Boeing take apart airbus equipment and vice versa, Every car company takes apart each others vehicles. Chip vendors X-ray each others components. 3am poking around may be a bit odd but they could have ordered one train, taken it apart and built some more.
Thats a seperate issue to patents and their enforcability.
Alan
Where do you get those stats?
The US is just shy of 5% of the world's population by my reckoning (~300 million in the US vs. ~6 billion in the world). I'd be shocked if the US had anywhere near 25% of the world's prison population, but post a source! Prove that one of your two assertions have merit!
Personally, I think you're just full of shit.
Your statement is that prison is only for the prevention of future/other crime.
/. argument.
It is not so simple a task. Prison, for society, is many things in its ideal form:
Punishment
Prevention of crime by person
Prevention of crime through example to others
Rehabilitation
You only picked one and made a typical
"Consider these facts: The land area of Texas is some 262,000 square miles and current UN estimates of the world's population (for 12 October 1999) are about 6 billion. By converting square miles to square feet -- remember to multiply by 5,280 feet per mile twice -- and dividing by the world's population, one readily finds that there are more than 1,217 square feet per capita. A family of 5 would thus occupy more than 6,085 square feet of living space. Even in Texas, that's a mansion." --Population Research Institute
Note that, given mountains and riverbanks and other geological irregularities, it's not possible to use Texas to house everyone. However, also note that Texas is a spectacularly small portion of the world's land surface area.
Check your math.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
Finally, we can put an end to all these jerks who have bastardized our precious RFCs... using funky TTLs, non-random sequence numbers, spoofing source addresses, failing to respect the evil bit... finally, finally! We can pay them back!!
[ducking]
help me i've cloned myself and can't remember which one I am
The federal government rarely has jurisdiction over crimes which have traditionally been prosecuted locally. Generally, there has to be an interstate or international dimension to the offense.
Federal drug prosecutions are almost entirely focused on the drug trade. In 2001 prison sentences for federal drug offenses looked like this:
Drug Trafficking 21,265, Other drug felonies, 1,648, Possession 276
I would take the odds that non-violent drug offenders in the federal system were resident in D.C. or in the handful of other places where the feds do have local police power, a military base, an Indian reservation.
It is unlikely that you will ever be charged with possession in the federal system, and unlikelier still that you will serve time. In 2001, 289 were found not guilty, 476 received probation only, over 100 were simply fined or had their sentenced suspended. Defendants in criminal cases terminating in U.S. District Court, fiscal year 2001
In compliance with the new American pushed IP laws, China has executed it's first batch of copyright infringers. The trials were short and to the point as the defendants could not afford proper IP lawyers. The RIAA and MPAA were quoted saying, "We are ecstatic that the new laws are working so effectively."
US officials had no official comment but say they are considering similar legislation admid inquiry from concerned citizens in both Hollywood and on Wall St.
Deltron 3030 - Virus (music video)
That alone would stop population growth--people don't have children if they can't afford them.
However that line is a purly a joke at its finest. Have you ever noticed sometimes it's the poorest people who seem to have the most children?
I was making a generalization. There are exceptions to every generality. Also keep in mind that, in the wealthy Western nations that you and I both probably live in, the poor often receive government assistance which--wait for it--increases if you have more children, creating an economic incentive for larger families. Also keep in mind that, in aforementioned wealthy Western nations, people have a certain degree of economic freedom. People can be born poor, but if they're smart, they're often not so poor later in life. Who's left among the poor, then? Less intelligent people who make less intelligent decisions, with a few more dumb people who come from rich or middle-class families but managed to piss away their wealth. Now, in economically unfree nations like China, smart people born poor stay poor. But they're still smart enough not to have kids, at least as long as they're the ones carrying the cost.
Note again that I'm speaking in generalities, and there are many, many exceptions.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
You are sadly mislead as are most Americans.
Were you one of those who asked, "Why do they hate us so much?"
The US's advantages are money, influence, markets, and patents/trademarks/copyrights enforced by mutual agreement. China's advantages are a large, cheap workforce, endless land, raw materials, and the (temporary) advantage of using (not stealing) knowledge that is already out there. You use the tools available to you. You try your damndest to make your competitors meet you were you are strongest and they are weakest.
This was true back when the American Colonists were using English designs for textile mills, steam engines, and everything else, and the English were taxing the holy bejesus out of them because they wanted the Colonies to be only suppliers of raw materials. The US wants China to be a supplier of manufactured goods and nothing else.
Sometimes seventeen/Syllables aren't enough to/Express a complete
...
What? I told you it went without saying, didn't I?
Despite conventional wisdom, I've discovered you can blame a guy for trying. It's called "attempted murder".
Hopefully this means that Bill and Steve will be busting up rocks real soon.
You don't garnish caviar!
Pothead: "Hey guys, what are you in for?"
Pirate: "20 years. The new Britney album."
Dad: "25 years. I stargazed with my kid."
Hussein: Life. For having MDW's that turned out to be nowhere.
Osama: ZERO! They still haven't caught me.. suckers!
Assault and battery doesn't involve an element of recklessness.
As you say, vehicular homicide is a crime of recklessness. If you leave your baby out in the snow, that's reckless disregard for human life. If you were drinking, it still is.
However if you beat someone to death because you were drunk, you will get a manslaughter charge. Circumstances in which the alcohol will not be a mitigating factor are few and far between. First offense, you'll get something like ten years, sure, but you won't be charged with reckless disregard for having swung your fist without having thought about the consequences.
Defacing a website should be compared with spraypainting the front wall of a company's building. And erasing data with burning the building's files (paper).
"Totalitarianism isn't subtile. It is based off of brutal, repressive force."
"Right, because the rise of Totalitarianism in Eastern Europe didn't have anything to do with the Red Army 'liberating' Eastern Europe at the end of WW2."
You seriously can't see the connection here? The U.S. is off "liberating" Iraq.
Meanwhile, at home, it passes mroe an more restrictive laws.... they can query your library records, tap your internet connection at any time, send you to jail for ten years for using a camcorder in a movie theatre, now require you to present your ID to a police officer at any time...
Abroad the US runs actual torture camps, while arguing with the UN about the definition of torture.
Of course totalitarianism in Europe had a lot to do with Russia's supposed liberation. It also had a lot to do with the Gulags and laws that peered into every facet of a citizen's life. The US currently has all these bases covered.
You don't have to be a nutjob to be startled that a lot of relatively harmless things you used to be able to do are now illegal.
If you look back twenty years and you remember a time when things you liked to do weren't rapidly being made criminal, you don't have to be a nutjob to worry.
If you notice that some of these things, like using the library photocopier to do research, are actually *good* things to do, as long as you don't abuse the privelege, you'd have to be a nutjob to not worry.
I fail to see the problem.
c net
... just to avoid that free software like OpenOffice.org takes that segment, before moving up to the other more profitable market segments (for which MS Office is actually sold, though at different prices depending on the market target).
... I mean, not like communist countries.
For one thing, even Bill Gates thinks that copying Microsoft software is good, especially in China. He said so himself "As long as they are going to steal it, we want them to steal ours." http://news.com.com/2100-1023-212942.html?legacy=
But I must say that true criminalization of illegal copies of Microsoft software would be most interesting to observe. I wonder how many months Microsoft would survive it.
The laws of economics say that software like MS Office should actually be free, since its marginal cost of production is zero (that is the cost to make one extra copy). And indeed it is free for its lowest market segment because Microsoft is deliberately using so-called software piracy to occupy this market segment
Of course this economic law assumes that the market is competitive.
Being forced to reinvent the wheel because someone patented it already is NOT innovation. It is NOT a level playing field when one side has all the cards, legitimately earned or not. Bending the rules to get ahead is perfectly legitimate because in competition, you're lucky even to have them (rules).
Unchecked capitalism or corrupt poleticians, or *neither*, the united states of america is moving head first to totalitarianism, if it didn't arrive years back.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
You just linked to the laws as of April 2004. When did this redefinition happen?
Sometimes seventeen/Syllables aren't enough to/Express a complete
"Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against - then you'll know this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We're after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power the government has is to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced not objectively interpreted - and you create a nation of law-breakers and then you cash in on the guilt. Now, that's the system, Mr. Rearden, that's the game and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with."
-- Atlas Shrugged
You jail people that are a danger to society to stop them hurting society, and the taxpayer pays for criminal trials and for imprisonment.
This is just a bid by corporations to get the taxpayer to foot their legal bills instead. If people are impeding their business they can sue - if people physically take something away from them (a copy does not do this) criminal action can be taken, and if violence has occurred that is exactly what we have jails for. It should always be up to the judicary whether to fine or imprison someone. The top exec of company X is not legally qualified, it's up to the experts and the legislature to decide what to do for the good of the people and not necessarily the good of those who sell images of an imaginary mouse.
Many FOSS projects are copyrighted and Linux is trademarked by Linus. Now, if someone downloaded Fedora3 for example would they be considered a pirate to our gov? Would GPL and Creative Commons licenses be taken seriously? If not, many are in trouble for using apt/yum/etc to get software. Micorsoft may push for those licenses to be ignored since they create competition. And we know that a captialist corporation wants communism once they have trouble (airlines wanting gov to give them money) or competition (M$ buying Bush to drop the anti-trust case).
Why do ya have to insult feral dogs like that?
Lots of them, here and here.
The 12% number is off, but the 25% number is correct. The US does have the largest prison population in the world, both as an absolute number and in percentage terms. More than China and Russia, and 5 to 8 times the rates of Canada and Western European countries. And a lot of people are there for nonviolent drug offenses, including this 25-year-old who's going to be in prison until age 81, with no chance of parole.
I wish this insanity would stop, although I don't hold out much hope at the rate things are going.
Usual IP trolls coming out of the woodwork.
Usual prison-loving fascists commenting on shit they know nothing about.
Move along. Nothing to read here...
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
In an all male prison population, it's pretty much guaranteed nobody's breeding.
... dude, I did not need the image implied by your observation ....
Ewww
-kgj
-kgj
From the article:
"They have made good progress on this front, but there's more work to be done," Evans said. "That means criminalizing the laws as opposed to (having) just civil laws that slap some simple little fine on companies and they go on down the road. You've got to start putting people in jail."
In all the other discussions on piracy I've read on Slashdot, a common sentiment has been uttered. It goes something like this:
"They shouldn't be going after [whomever's the target today]. They should be going after the real pirates, the illegal operations that crank out pirated DVDs and CDs by the thousands on the streets."
And, this is exactly what we are asking China to do. Not outlaw P2P. Not eliminate fair use. Not throw kids in jail for having 1,000 songs in their share directory. But to go after the companies that engage in mass piracy, rather than the current process of slapping them with a civil fine so that they can just set up shop down the road.
But according to many people in this thread, even this is unacceptable.
The Slashdot groupthink flowchart now seems to look like this:
Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
this title and
Consider the title (which was the source of the complaint):
"US To Push Criminalisation of IP Violations".
The PP's response:
this is about the usa pushing for china to start putting people in jail for counterfeiting
I have to ask if sum.zero RTFA. Or if sum.zero RTF/.A.
To quote TFA:
-- emphasis added
Hello!
While not explicitly stated, when they speak of "intellectual property" and "counterfeiting" together they are usually talking about things like burning a music disc and pawning it off as an original.
If I say to some joe on the street "Should people be put in jail for counterfeiting?" they will immediately assume I am talking about counterfeit money and more often than not respond in the affirmative. And that form of counterfeiting activity is NOT "widely acknowledged" as "piracy".
Counterfeit non-currency goods is widely acknowledged to be *fraud*.
In any case TFA clearly stated it was the US pushing (China) to make IP violations criminal. The
My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
However the act of which you speek is American and not applicaple in the UK, which is the jurisdiction the previous poster was talking about.
"And now that this is happening, people are defendending them. Unbelievable."
First paragraph:
"If they would act specifically against mass-counterfeiting for commercial purposes then, certainly when health issues are at stake, it might have some validity, but everyone knows such laws will be used against all others as well, before you can blink your eye."
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
I find the defendent did not compare the plantiff to Nazis, and therefore the request for dismissal on grounds of Nazism is denied.
the /. article mention that evans will be going to china, but doesn't mention that his comments are addressed to the chinese or that they concern chinese law as opposed to us law. a quick review of the posts in response to the /. article seems to confirm my suspicion that many were confused on this issue.
/. article insinuates this is a story about events in the us that concern us law and us citizens. it is not, except by indirect reference. this is a story about chinese law and us/china economic relations.
"ip" is a very broad term [too broad, imho]. it covers many things, including copyright, patents, and trade secrets.
if you look at your quote you will notice the mention of brake pads and birth control pills? i have never been aware that these were available via p2p or were items commonly shared between friends. these are things that are counterfeited, whether completely bogus or copies based on theft of "ip," and sold for-profit.
imho, the reuter's aricle is clearly primarily about "ip" from the point of view of a company/industry thinking about investing in new factories/development and looking to expand their markets in china. i mean, you can't outsource all your development to china if your competitors just steal your code/processes/trade secrets/etc and face limited penalties for doing so [and no, i am not a proponent of outsourcing]. the us, and many other countries, are currently investing serious amounts of money [and their futures, but that is another discussion...] in china. i think it natural that they would have concerns about the protection of "ip" in a country with such a long history of disrespect for the concept.
your definition of counterfeiting is also limited. counterfeiting involves the fradulent reproduction of any good to which value can be assigned or where you make the copy with intent to defraud. counterfeiting and fraud are complimentary, not mutually exclusive. the selling of counterfeit goods is fraud, amongst other things. the combination is often referred to as "piracy" [stealing a market?] when conducted in a large-scale, organized manner. but here i think we might devolve into arguments over semantics...
so while i understand your points and do think the us is intentionally vague on these issues, i stand by my analysis. the
sum.zero
We can't even find a list of ours in plain English. No one knows what all the laws are, and no one can be held morally responsible for violating them. Until the system changes drastically, ignorance is indeed an excuse.
Have you ever tried pulling that in court?
If so, when do you get out?
If it ever goes to court he claims that he will not have any problem showing that the laws contradict, and thus can't be enforced, which he has done in the past.
In other words, laws are interpreted and implemented by judge and/or jury. That's the way it's supposed to work in a common law system. Interpretations based on earlier precedents will hold sway over how conflicting statutes will be decided. They aren't meant to be boilerplate as in civil law systems because one size doesn't (and ought not to) fit all.
When punishments fit the crime in every state, when corporate officers can no longer draw robber-baron salaries and can no longer receive million dollar severence pay, when our public servants and statesmen stop being self-serving politcal prostitutes, when Microsoft sells products that are no longer filled with system crashing flaws that require endless updates and reinstallations that cost many hours in time and energy, not to mention dollars, when I can charge for phone conversations I have with parents, after school tutoring time, and lesson planning and paper grading time, just like lawyers who write laws in their legal-babble language that requires hiring another lawyer to interpret, when people who need medical care and medicine no longer have to juggle their budget to sacrifice a meal or a utility bill payment to pay for the health care granted to every corporate manager and legislator, and I could go on and on about all of the legal, yet unethical manipulations of markets and industries, then perhaps I will feel like cyber-pirates are doing something illegal or unethical. Piracy, in all of its variations, is apparently very American. I could continue this rant and talk about corporations that have polluted our air, waterways, and soil, and the cost to public health, and how they have rarely been held accountable or responsible for all the damage caused by the by-products of their production. There is very little justice and equity in this country. Someone said something like money doesn't talk, it shouts. Patronage thrives. Our legislators and the laws they enact are bought and paid for by the industries that they are elected to oversee, so they will look the other way as markets are manipulated, and the average worker is used, abused, and refused adequate compensation for a day of work. I would encourage everyone to dip into the communal kitty, until you are comfortable. It's the American way; it IS The State of the Union!