Slashdot Mirror
When Should You Quit Your Job?
Moe Taxes asks: "I want to hear from Slashdot readers who have quit jobs or turned down offered jobs because it was not what they wanted to do. Why did you do it? Was it ethics, ambition, pride, or disgust? And how did it turn out? Did you get to do what you wanted to do, are you still looking, or did you come back begging for another chance? I have always written software for windows, but never with Microsoft tools. I don't feel like I have enough control over the product when I use Microsoft programming environments. My company was bought recently, and is in the process of becoming a C# VisualStudio shop. I said thanks, but no thanks and left. Am I a fool for giving up steady work and good pay?"
Am I a fool for giving up steady work and good pay
Yes.
Don't ever quite (read it twice) unless you have something else in line.
Not if you can find another job.
Yes. I mean, ok, so it's your call. But does it really matter what OS/environment you work with? I always thought real programmers could care less... It's not like you're doing it for fun--you ARE getting paid, after all. Besides, you should have waited till you found a new job before you quit your old one.
Simple. When I get 100% vesting in the 401(k). Meanwhile, I just suck up the BS and deal.
Are you married? Does your spouse work? How much money do you have saved up? What was your income? Where do you live? How old are you? How much experience do you have? etc, etc.
Unless you have no use for money.
We must be alert to the danger that public policy could become captive to a scientific-technological elite. - Eisenhower
Life is very short, if you don't believe in god then this is truley the only go at things you'll have. Every day should be fun and everything you do you should enjoy, you should be interested in, it should intrigue you. Because of this you shouldn't spend time doing something you dislike, that bores you, etc. A smart person can find a good job, one that they like, one that they love, if they look hard enough.
A great indication of when you should quit your job is when you wake up every morning and dread going into work. Its okay to wish you were doing something else, but if you wake up and always hate the idea of going into the office then it is probably a good time to find a new line of work.
Be better in bed. Wikiafterdark!
I think "steady work" in this case is a bit of a misnomer. If you hate your job, don't like the work, or desperately want to leave, then you are not going to be productive, you will have a lot of stress, you will probably be irritable most of the time, and in general you will not fit very well with the position. I don't think I would characterize that as a "steady" employment situation. It would likely be very tumultuous.
Unless you were being forced to do something illegal it doesn't make a lot sense to quit a job before having another one lined up. It sucks to be forced into an unfun job situation but there is a reason why work is called work. Sometimes you have to do things that suck. Good luck on finding another job.
In this case, you probably made a mistake. Microsoft tools are excellent for Windows development. C# is easier to use than C++. If a job makes you unhappy, you shuld probably look for a new one but I don't see that there's any reason to believe that using the latest Microsoft tools for windows development will make you unhappy. Sorry.
microsoft tools too good for you?
Kinda late to worry about it now isn't it?
Opinion:=TMyOpinion.Create(Me);
If you've left, and don't find other work that you enjoy doing soon, you're at risk of ending up stuck doing stuff that you feel is a waste of your skills - something like flipping burgers, answering phones, whatever. You also have an issue getting back into your field later - saying that you quit because you didn't like the tools your employer was using is a potential red flag to a future employer, and may make it impossible to return to a field you enjoy.
Good luck finding a new job!
I appear to have a blog. Odd.
The proper way would have been to do a job search before you quit your job. If you're already employed but want to move on, secure yourself first by having a new job lined up before turning in your notice.
Yeah, I'm sure it really sucks the direction your current job is going but unless your skills are amazingly solid or your name is Linus Torvalds, chances are you're about to have a lot of free time on your hands with no solid income for a while.
If you had another job lined up, no. If you didn't but have some money in savings, no dependants, probably not. If you have kids and no money, then it probably was a little too impulsive. Of course, if other working adults within your household are both able and willing to take up the slack, then it's probably not so bad.
I left my company recently, but only resigned after accepting another position.
Yes, especially if it was just because you hate M$. If you had stayed there long enough to learn C# and then decided it wasn't in your best long term interest that might have been something different. As it is you just lost a perfect opportunity to learn something new and expand your skill set.
Did you quit your job because of a personal bias? Did you quit because you don't like Microsoft tools, or because you didn't like the way you thought the company was going to go?
... "Would I take a job where they said I would be using Microsoft tools for development?" If the answer is no, then you did the right thing. If the answer is yes, I'd say you did the wrong thing.
Ask yourself
Personally, I would never quit a job based on the tools they wanted me to develop with. It's like an accountant saying, "We're going to change from using Peoplesoft to Great Plains? I quit, I don't like that tool.". You'd still be doing the same thing, just in a different environment.
I think there is more to this then just "I don't think I have enough control in MS Visual Studio".
The reason you quit your job is rediculous.
It's asinine to quit your job without another in line just because you wanted to be a l33t pr0gr4mm3r and not write with Microsoft tools. Staying on only would have given you experience with a language you probably don't have much practical experience with, furthering your resume and expanding your knowledge.
You could easily have stayed on and stuck it out while looking for something else. Attitudes like yours make me want to quit this profession.
In deciding to leave a job or not, you are looking at the wrong data. IMHO, the important thing in a job is not the OS or programming tools. The main factor is do you like working with your co-workers. If you like your fellow workers, then you are a fool to leave over the programming tools.
At the end of the day code is code no matter where you wrote it. What gets us interested in getting up and going to work each day is do we like the working environment, not the coding environment.
To quit without having another job lined up is not very smart, but to quit in protest of using a new IDE is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. And it's made worse by the fact that the new IDE in question is the best one available for the platform you're developing for. The way I see it, yr old company is better off this way. You aren't.
Everybody's been saying the same goddamned thing.
"Yes you were foolish for quitting your job."
What do you want from these people? Reassurance that you've done the right thing? They don't know you. They don't know what you're capable of, and they dont know what you want to do. Only YOU know that. Would you seriously read 100 replies and go "Shit... I KNEW I shouldn't have done that." ?
Listen man. You live ONCE. You've made your choice now move on. Go try and find something that makes you happy, and preferably pays you rather well. You know what you're capable - or not capable - of, so don't sell yourself short by asking for Career advice on Slashdot. ;)
I think there is nothing wrong with having convictions, but it's always best to keep an open mind regarding new technologies. Unless you are a 20+ years C developper, you should at least, tried to evolve with the company technological changes.
.Net for a couple of weeks or months. If it still made you life miserable, quitting would have been the right decision for you. Now, you look as if new technological challenges scare the hell out of you.
That choice you made, you should have done it after trying C#
I used to work at Microsoft (go ahead and laugh) and it was a stable and secure job aside from the fact my department was being globalized and sent to India (I could have probably found another job at Microsoft if it had come down to it).
I quit due to a number of reasons. First, it became clear to me that family obligations (unusually intensive for the time) were not going to be met if I continued to work there. But additionally (why I have not reapplied) I realized that I would be continuously underemployed because I didn't play the political games the way others expected me to.
So when I returned to the US after helping my wife get her visa, I went into business for myself.
My experience:
Don't kid yourself-- it is very (!) difficult to quit to start your own business unless you have a lot of external support (I was lucky in that regard, and it is still hard).
That being said, there is no price you can pay for the feeling of satisfaction you get from having a fulfilling job or business.
So it is your choice.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
So, let me get this straight. You are 27 years old. And, you just received an offer at 3-times your current salary to become a PHB.
How would you play it? I'd love to make a lot of money, but if I take the Executive Manager position I'll most probably never write code againYou are crazy if you even consider staying with your old company. You are crazy if you want to remain a programmer. Programming sucks. In fact, you are crazy for asking such a question on /.
Take the Executive position. Take the money. You can always return to programming later, if you decide you hate the responsibility. Earn the money while you can.
You should quit when you have your next job lined up.
...." - those words WILL come back to haunt you (like, the *next* time you go to look for a new job, and prospective employers are calling this guy!) Make sure you give them your two weeks (they may offer to let you go immediately or ask that you continue to work - be ready either way).
That is, when you have the offer of employment from your new employer, and a starting date set.
I had a friend who did the "take this job and shove it" trick with what was truely a bad situation. However, it was several months before he had another job lined up, and he very nearly had to file for bankrupcy. It *did* screw his credit up for a long time, due to the amount of debt he racked up during that time.
All jobs suck - but some more than others.
So you should ask yourself, "Realistically, does this job suck worse than any new job I might get?"
Assuming the answer is "HELL YES!", then start looking for a new job - BUT DON'T LET YOUR CURRENT EMPLOYER KNOW. Make sure you tell any headhunters you work with that you don't want your current employer contacted.
Look long and well - do everything you can do to insure that your new job will suck less than your current job.
Then, when they offer you a position, set your start date no earlier than two and a half weeks into the future, get the formal (and legally binding) letter of offer and your letter of acceptance.
THEN, and ONLY then, do you go to your current boss and tender your resignation. And no matter how strong the temptation, no matter what you feel your justification is, no matter how badly you'd like to tell them off, resign in a calm, professional manner. This world is too damn small to say "First of all, you ain't no good, never been no good, you smell like old wet cheese, you pay shit
Also, when changing jobs, you are shaking your world up - so do your best to save up some emergency money before hand, and even if your new job pays 4x what you were making - act as though you were making your old salary and save the difference - at least for a year. Remember, last in, first out.
You may want to quit today - you may go home every night grinding your teeth, but USE that anger to drive your job search - remember, while your current job may suck, imagine how much MORE it will suck if you have to go crawling back in order to keep a roof over your head!
www.eFax.com are spammers
Take the higher paying job. Less to have to deal moving.
If you really and truely want a degree, you can take night courses at a local school, or even online.
As a manager with programing experience, don't forget the people you manage where once just like you.
design your own programs on the side, to fufill your programing desires. or 'help' out the Testing and patching sections during quiet times of the year.
Now if the more expensive job required relocation that's a different story. The headache of moving, and a new job may or may not be worth the higher salary.
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
Screw the economy. Do it for the stuff man! Think of all the iPods, Scions, and RAM upgrades you will be missing out on!
I don't have the experiance to tell you if it will matter or not but I would take the 3X pay and higher title. I mean, check everything out first and make sure it's a stable job and not some fly by night crap and go for it. Let your current employer know you really appreciate their offer and if things do not work out you would like to come back perhaps. If you're as good as you say, they will make a space for you. Really, really good programmers are hard to find.
But, you have an opportunity to make some really good scratch right now and hell, take night classes and slowly finish your degree if it's important to you.
Keep inmind though, if your current employer is going to pay for your school, that could be the same as a huge pay raise. Follow your heart but money talks and if you're going to be making that much more, the money is screaming at you.
You can still program on OSS projects, etc. Now your programming becomes a hobby and you can afford a really nice chair to sit in at home.
I'd take the money, considering it seems like a stable position.
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
I disagree. It is always easier to get a job if you are working. Employers just feel better about hiring you if you are working. If they think you will quit without having a backup job, then they think it will be easier for you to quit them. Also there is a sense of accomplishment in "stealing" a good employee from another company.
That said, I want to respond to the original question. I have turned down a lot of jobs in my life. I have always done it for the same reason, because I liked what I was doing. I have said for years, "If I did not like what I do, I would do something else."
I just recently changed jobs. I did it for job satisfaction. I switched to a job where I feel I am better respected. I get paid more. There are perks like travel and training that I did not have at the old job. I have been telling everyone, "This is the job I have worked towards for the last ten years."
Insert Generic Sig Here:
You are never a fool if you stand up for something you belive in .
The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
Unless you have something lined up, don't just quit unless some legal boundry (or moral) has been crossed. The current (modern?) economy is not setup to easily just move around in general. In my own experience, I was working for a great small company the past almost three years. I got all the benefits, good pay, awesome vacation (which allowed me to see much of the world), etc. However, I felt in the end I was starting to stagnate and didn't have anywhere to move up. So this became the impetus to look elsewhere. The reasoning being the obvious, more money, and the less obvious, networking, relearning old skills, learning new skills, learning about different companies/industries, etc. I been at my new job for two weeks now and while I was very timid initially for fear I made a big mistake, turns out each day is better then the previous and I am really liking it here. So always keep your eyes open, but don't just jump ship without some careful consideration and planning.
Life is too short to work at a job that you hate.
Look at people who you consider successful. How many of them chose to remain at a boring job for a long time?
Now, look at your current workplace. Can you see yourself being there in 3-5 years?
What do you want to do when you are 40? What are your long term goals? Will your current job help you to reach your goals?
However, staying in your current job will buy you time, if you can put up with the boredom for a short time. If you stay employyed, you can be more relaxed in your job search, and not be forced to take a new job that you will hate. Obviously, it will be harder to find time to look for a job if you stay employeed, but you can try to make time.
Plus, many potential employeers will take you more seriously when you already have a job.
If you ARE stuck at a job, then just make sure you have a good life outside of work. If you hate your job, and you hate your non-work life; it is time to reevaluate your situation.
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
Not saying that it's "bad advice" - but perhaps it's just over-simplistic?
I agree that life is too short, and there's ultimately no real point to spending most of it doing work you loathe.
But there's a flip-side to this. Job searches and the uncertainty of when you'll be able to get the bills paid can be more stressful than a job you don't particularly like.
Furthermore, it's quite possible to discover something you truly enjoy doing on your own terms and conditions, which doesn't ever seem to really translate into a "job you enjoy" when working for someone else. For example, I've always had an interest and enjoyment of music - and used to be told I had a "pleasant reading voice" and the like. Therefore, I had an idea that I'd enjoy becoming a radio DJ. Know what? After going to college and taking a few courses towards this goal - I realized there was no way I'd ever like it! The problem? Practically nobody in the commercial radio business is willing to turn over control to a DJ. The DJ is basically a "robot", playing the music pre-designated in set lists, and required to only speak for X number of seconds or minutes each hour, at pre-designated time slots in the program. That's not at all what I envisioned would make being a DJ fun!
All of that being said, I think there's nothing at all to be ashamed of to say "Look, I'm not comfortable writing your software using *this* set of tools (or for *this* platform)." Only you can really make that judgement call. To me, it's rather like being a carpenter, and suddenly being told "We're taking away your entire toolbox, because our business partnered up with Black & Decker. You can only use Black & Decker saws, drills, hand tools, etc. from here on out. Here's your new set of tools, and if you need ones they don't make - you just have to do without! Enjoy!" Some people might get by fine under those conditions, but it surely wouldn't do for every carpenter out there.
I half agree with you. It may be true that money
:)
cannot buy hapiness... but lack of money can sure
bring a lot of misery. I'll still pick a lower
paying job that I love over a sucky job that pays
more, but only if the job I love still brings in
enough to pay the bills.
Of course as an independent consultant I sometimes
bend my own rule. I'll take a short term sucky
job for a high enough rate if it means I can take a
really long vacation before accepting the next
consulting gig. For me, money is not about buying
more toys... it is about affording the free time
to play with the toys.
Later,
Thad
The Bolachek Journals
I suppose you have to remember that with higher pay and a more prominent title comes a lot more responsibility. You have to try and weigh the amount of responsibility against the pay you will receive and figure out if that is worth throttling back on the things you like to do (in this case programming). A university diploma really doesn't have much warrant the higher you are up in the corporate ladder. On the other hand, if the company gets restructured and you have to find some new place to start, the diploma might help give you an in. Personally I opt for the lesser paying job that gives me the ability to do what I love. It isn't that I wouldn't like the responsibility; I just think that my personal satisfaction is more importnant than financial gain.
Realize that because you're asking Slashdot, you feel deep down that you didn't make the correct choice. What you've really done is give up a paycheck because you refused to learn something new. Geeks ALWAYS want to learn something new. If you don't, pretty soon you wind up like those VMS and punchcard people who support one application, who are grumpy, and who no-one wants to deal with.
Interviewer: "Why did you leave your last job?"
Interviewee: "I quit because I didn't like the development tools."
Interviewer: "Thanks for your time. NEXT!"
I did that once. Mistake. Don't do the grand gestures until you have another job to go to. Of course if you don't like eating......
Last year, after quite a few months of crabbing about my job I decided the company was not going in a direction I wanted to participate in. This involved a change in ownership from the founder to the VP Sales and the company culture changed from having a touchy-feely opendoor management style to having an authoritarian absentee CEO who hired management consultants and the whole Office Space rigamarole. I had saved up a chunk of money and I live in a rent-controlled apartment, so I quit. I had always thought that if a company I worked for was either sold or started hiring management consultants that I would quit immediately, but I liked my coworkers and there still remained some vestiges of the old way, so I waited a few months. I've taken the time off (since last May) to relax, do some traveling, and basically not think about having a job for awhile. I'm just now starting to get bored and am in the job market, but I feel this was just fine even though my family and some of my friends are of the "jobs are like women: don't quit one before you have another" mindset. You know your situation best and can plan for the future, though. If you're not hurting, I recommend taking at least a few weeks to figure out what was wrong with what you left so you can look for jobs that are more than "anything besides this" desperation.
When I was a kid, we only had one Darth.
Option 3: if you'd really be making 2-3 times more than you're making now. You could sell out for three or four years and then retire for a few years on the savings (assuming you had the discipline to maintain your current spending habits) to start a consulting company or something. Take the time you're working to finish your degree (in Comp. Sci) which will also help you keep your programming skills up.
Waltz, nymph, for quick jigs vex Bud.
and been re-hired 3 times, though each was a unique circumstance. But NEVER ask to go back...it almost never works out and you mostly never get to find out honest answers about why they don't want you back.
The happiest outcomes seem to stem from leaving a large, stale, hide-bound bureaucratic corporation [defense contractor in my case] for a raw startup with maybe 1st round funding...the new situation should be fluid and even if it is risky, it can be absolutely engaging and require all the energy and smarts you possess. Unless you are a weak performer, you will usually not wait too long between jobs and in the end, the jobs you will be fondest off will be the ones that needed you the most and let you be the best programmer you were capable of being. This is, of course, MHO: your personality and comfort level in uncertain circumstances is a huge part of the decision.
I should temper this idealism a bit. A startup either grows up and each programmer's role shrinks, or it fails and you go looking again. That optimum state of programmerly grace is fleeting yet you don't want to be a start-up junky. A good rule of thumb [I've heard it from others who have worked in the same ways at the same companies as I] is about 3 years at a start up. You are either rich by then or have settled into some role with depleted novelty and challenges...or you are suddenly cleaning the pizza boxes and coke cans out of your cube and using the pink slip to book mark where you left off in your latest programming manual. It is no shame and in some quarters a sign of your value that you went down with the ship. YMMV but JUMP anyway 'cause life is short.
SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
Yes you are a fool, because there are many other IDE's out there besides VisualStudio that I am sure you could have had them buy you. Like Borlands. Or you could just use Emacs or Notepad. What did you gain from your pride nothing but loosing a good paying job.
This is a stupid Ask Slashdot.
Obviously your moral standards are at issue here, and everyone has their own moral standards.
Would you be a prostitute? A pimp? Con man? Work at Microsoft? Work for Wal Mart? Be a lawyer? Defense attorney? Personal injury? Prosecution? Cop? Surgeon? Social worker?
Who you work for, what work you have to do, who you have to work with... these are all fundamental questions that every person in the freaking world has to ask themselves every time they look for work, and every day they go to work. The fact that you are a programmer has absolutely zero fucking relevance, except with regards to the current IT industry job market. And you know what? Special delivery from Obvious Express: IT SUCKS. Of course, with motivation, luck, (perhaps a bit of nepotism) and an excellent resume you can get a job in any big city. DUH!
Welcome to Ethics 101 and Job Finding 101, where your host is Slashdot and we can discuss sophomoric morality questions and how the current job market in IT sucks!
Later today: Does God exist? What OS would He use?
If you're asking yourself this, and have to come on here to get an answer, then my answer to you is Yes.
But honestly, only you can answer this.
- Did you have another job lined up before leaving?
- Are you living in a location where there are plenty of jobs where you'll be happy, and you are able to get?
- Are you able to get by comfortably until you find a new job, and if not, was it worth leaving before finding a new job?
- If you company was bought out, would you be switching to Visual Studio right away, or would you have been able to continue doing what you were doing before (until you found a new job)?
Sometimes, we have to do things that we don't like (for example, I'm writing help files, but it's paying the bills, and I'm getting by quite easily, but until I can find a job that pays as good or more than this, and where my experience would better be served, I'll continue to do the jobs that no one else wants)
There are many different types of people in the world. I don't know which one you are, but not everyone can manage well, nor wants to. You sound like you've found what you're happy with. The money you get with a managerial role and no formal training may be offset by increased stress, and frustration at a job that's not necessarily as easy for you nor makes you as happy.
Case in point, as a manager with people under you, you'll have to rate them, listen to them, and be responsible to make them play nicely together. Are you stong with social interaction? Do you listen well? Do people respect you and see you as a leader?
The "Peter Principle" says good people get promoted to their "level of incompetence". Make sure that never applies to you, because you'll be miserable and that will affect the people you manage as well as your new set of co-workers.
Money isn't everything. One serious illness caused by stress can wipe it all out faster than the IRS.
Good luck in whatever you decide!
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein
In addition to all of the advice above keep in mind this: people who become professional managers are just as much geeks as those who program.
By that I mean people who become executives and mid- and upper level managers are people who should love the political/people stuff as much as a programmer loves technology.
Think about mid to senior management as the equivalent of mid to senior level developers -- how much time and energy have they spent working on the skills that matter in a political, people-everything environment? Just as much as the developers did in their coding and technical stuff, if not more. And they're just as motivated as well.
Be sure that you're comfortable in making a jump to that kind of peer group!
Whats your current salary? 3x $20k isn't as significant as 3x $60k...
I have recently quit my job.
It was a lucrative job that involved a high level of certification with a vendor. I got to go to different job sites every other week or so, learn the latest technologies, and get free training. In the beginning it seemed like the culmination of several years or training.
The entire time I had the job, I didn't feel like I belonged there. I found journals of mine from two years ago, and I'd said then that I didn't know if I would be there in six months. I could do the technical part ok. I just didn't have the personality to do the job. I didn't like BS'ing the customer into purchasing a solution when I couldn't prove that the solution would work because I had never done that before. When a recent project involved over $175,000 in labor and materials, and the number of things of unknowns that would have ruined the project ran over a page long, I knew I didn't have it in me to keep doing this.
I used to read 300-page books about my vendor's products while I was *on vacation*. The stuff just fascinated me. Now I don't read it at all anymore. Maybe one day I'll be back, but that day isn't today.
Plus, the job helped stress out my marriage, and when a computer guy tries to force "ones and zeroes" thinking on a liberal arts creative singer, well things go wrong.
The main logistical issue is to make sure that you will have enough money to ride out an extended time while unemployed. You may have to consider cancelling recurring services, such as digital cable, or certain long-distance plans. You might have to consider that you may have to move back in with family, or somehow signing up for state assistance.
The rule for success (I forget who say it first): Figure out what price you would pay for what you want, and then pay that price. If you've got the money, then leaving a job because the color of the carpet disagrees with your flesh tones is a possibility. If the money isn't there, then learning what goes into a Taco Bell Chalupa may be in your future.
Ultimately, the only time that you will not have any problems is when you're dead. Part of realizing that I was a "grown up" was seeing that there are always more problems, and that waiting for those to go away before you become happy will never work.
Happiness is not the absence of problems. Happiness is what you have to bring to your problems in order to improve your life.
P.S. I have a job possibility on the horizon with a 40% pay cut. But it is a great work environment, and I have money stashed away. I can reduce my lifestyle, now that I know that I am not what I own.
It's a gamble, like many other things in life.
I left a decent IT support position back in 1998 as they were moving away from VMS and standardizing on NT. I went back to school to finish my BSECE degree, and now I do chip design -- I make almost twice as much money and I've worked on two fantastically groundbreaking microprocessors in the last four years.
Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. The down side? Student Loans.
I would say that it is hard to stay a coder all your career. Most of the people I've worked around over my 8 yrs in IT have been no more than in their 30's. Anyone older was in management. At 30 now, I wonder what I'll be doing in 10 years and if it is what I'm doing now, well, I think that'll be really boring.
The question is, what is more important to you. The money and position, with all the crap that goes with that (politics, etc) or a more interesting and relaxing job with oportunity to achieve some goals' outside the job.
I left a company where oportunity was there to play the game and move up for a position with no mobility but a 9-5 schedule and not so stressful office life. I am much happier (more so since I asked for a got a raise).
Money is important, your health and happiness more so.
As far as degrees, well, one of the smartest programmers I know and a very successful person (started his own company, now in a high ranking senior technical position at a big tech company) doesn't have his Bachelor's degree. You might look on paper and see that missing, but his job experience and sheer inteligence and knowledge make people not care about education in the first few minutes.
I recently left a job where I was a member of the founding team of the company. I had been there for four years and the company was moving in a different strategic direction. However, I knew that as soon as my resume hit the street my boss would hear about it. He had been good to me over the years and I felt I owed it to them to be up front and be the one to tell them. Not them hear it from someone else. Plus, I had tons of connections in the field I was staying in. Many at small companies and many at large, so I knew I would have good options for a place to land. Which I did, with a great company who I'm thrilled to be with. Moral of the story, sometimes its the right thing to do.
Chances are very good you were going to get laid off soon anyway - they'd say they needed someone who was "already up to speed with the latest Microsoft tools".
Companies don't seem to retrain people, they just fire them and hire ones that are already at the required level of proficiency in whatever tool/environment/software/etc the company falls in love with next.
If a UNIX using company goes M$, the UNIX people will almost always get laid off - they won't be given the option of trying to adapt. The company will want "fresh blood" and people who don't need to be retrained, and who are already ready to perform 100% from the get go, and people who are "able to be made naturally to think in the new programming paradigm, etc".
This also gives them an excuse to fire the older workers without getting caught for age discrimination and hire younger, lower paid, less senior, easily moldable, replacements.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
I quit an extremely lucrative job because I'd come to hate it and was doing all sorts of stupid things to try to distract me from that.
I'd planned my life to make this possible: I'd paid off my debts as soon as I could and didn't try to live some big lifestyle or have a bunch of kids.
The same planning that let my wife transition into a job that was less money (at the time, not now) now let me do the same thing.
The more crap you buy, the more debt you incur, the more locked you are to the hamster wheel. The danger, of course, is self-medicating your loathing of your job by spending a lot of money on gadgets and vacations that "you deserve"... money that could pay off your debts and free you of the whole pain in the ass in the first place.
Personally I would be very wary of a salary increase that high. Take a look at the company and how stable it is. That is the kind of hiring that I have seen in the past from startups that think they have a lot to spend, but either wind up crashing and burning or going through a firing cycle when they figure out they have paid too much. Do you think you are that severely underpaid compared to your peers? If not then just looking at the dollar signs in a job situation like this might not be worth it in the end....
News Reporters Make Tasty Polar Bear Treats!
I WANNA USE SHARPDEVELOP INSTEAD!! wahhhhh
.NET, like so many others they probably have a rats nest of C, VB, Perl, Delphi, Tk or whatever other "flavor of the week" RAD language they decided to use.
Typical clueless slashbot, like there's any fundemantal difference between the IDE's other than one is from MSFT and the other is OSS.
Exactly what "control" does VS.Net take away from the developer? Pure "I hate MS" idiocy. I code all day at work in VS.Net, and take the same project home and work on it in #Develop.
Or maybe he just doesn't like C#, because it's "MS" stuff. Maybe he prefers Java - which doesn't let you do anything or use any widget sets that aren't Sun Approved (tm).
Maybe he thinks we still do app-level programming in C. Maybe like the aging "genious programmers" in my office, he's completely dumbfounded by OO programming. (Wahhhh vb6 class modules are hard me no understand)
Sounds like he quit just before he could be fired for incompetence.
I hope the trend continues, and the industry slowly purges itself of people who make tech decisions based on personal philosophy instead of techincal merit.
Sounds like his company made a wise choice to settle on
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
What would you do with that diploma that you are not doing or can not do right now?
Frankly, I'd have to say do the higher paying job, especially if the salary for it is in the six figure range. Work it for a few years and see how it works out. Bank the money, so you have it to fall back on if you decide to switch back to a programming job, or start something on your own. Don't do anything silly like buying an expensive car or house that lands you with expensive payments; then you'll actually need that high paying job, and lose your ability to walk away. Three years at that new job gets you the same financial rewards that eight years at your current job will bring. That is worth taking a risk for, especially if the job isn't that bad. Even if you only work it for a year, you're financially more than two years ahead of where you would have been.
You can always walk out with a big green parachute, and find yourself work later with that kind of resume. It's been my experience that most intelligent people prefer experience to a fresh degree. Apprenticeship is still the best way to learn any trade.
If you stay on good terms with your current employer, they may take you back if you decide you want to return. Our company has hired back plenty of old talent that left on good terms when they came around looking for work, because they are a known asset, more reliable than a fresh hire. This really depends on your company's management; not all of them are this open minded. If they show loyalty to employees, they'd probably go for it.
Hell is being intelligent in a world full of idiots.
Who can say what you should or shouldn't do besides yourself, but I can give you my own experience. I'm 34 and have been coding since I was 18 (dropped out of college to start working with computers). Recently I moved from an all coding all the time position to a manage 80% of the time and code 20% of the time. I've been miserable ever since.
This is just me personally. I don't like being a manager. I like being up to my eyebrows in lines of code and since I'm spending only a few hours per week doing what I like, and days of my week doing what I don't, I'd've opted for the lower number of dollars any day.
Good luck with it either way.
I can second this. I'm 28, and at least five years younger than anyone else working at my company. Fully two thirds of our employees are over 40, and we have several greybeards here who are in the late 50's, even late 60's. Believe me, programming skill does *not* lessen with age; it can sharpen to the point where, like the parent says... coding is simply instinct. We also have the kind of management that laughs uproariously when someone mentions overseas projects, and has taken up projects that are being brought back from overseas in shambles.
It's a really smooth, calm, sane work environment. It would literally take someone offering me more than double my current salary to get me to leave, because I'm reasonably sure this will be the best job I ever have, in terms of working environment.
I think that idea of 'only young people make good programmers' has passed its time. The field has become too mature for an illusion like that to continue any longer. Good programmers are good programmers, and that's all there is to it. If you're good, you're all set.
Hell is being intelligent in a world full of idiots.
Do what you love, and the money will follow. But you're young, and if you want to be pragmatic:
If the salary is nearly 3x what you're making now, and you are more than scraping by now, then for every year in this new job, you should be able to save ~2X what you need to live.
Ask your parents what they think of that.
A few years would let you quit work and finish college fulltime, work on an MBA or get a graduate degree. Or a nice nest-egg to get you through lean times. Or hike the AT.
For me (unmarried), every year I work will let me retire a year earlier. You would probably be in the same position, except you're 13 years younger. Want to retire at 45?
Don't bet on being able to survive as a coder for the rest of your life. The writing is on the wall for anyone who isn't within one or two degrees of the customer.
After toying in the computer field since age 12, writing applications and working for several companies including software developers, I walked away from it at age 35 and joined the military and now only work on computers (repairs, no longer coding) for fun, my job in the military has nothing to do with computer (unless I get to blow one up). I was no longer satisfied with working on computers and technology for a living, it took all the fun it used to be out ot it for me. That being said, I had a plan though, I had the military, which I enjoy (most of the time).
:( , not so fun ). DO what your life feels is right...If there are others in your life who are important (wife, kids...) get their support also.
My wife and I took a HUGE hit int the financial areas, my pay was significantly less and she (also in the IT field) had to do the job search once we arrived at our current location. Now she's having a difficult time with job satisfaction. Quite honestly, if the company isn't "dirty" in the way it dealed with it's vendors and customers (and finances), then the company treats Tech Support like the "Devil's Spawn", with hatred and contempt.
I guess what I'm trying to tell you is that, only you can weight the pros and cons of leaving a company for any reason, don't listen to what other's have to tell you (unless you ask them). As long as you can keep your head above water financially, taking into account life style changes, then do what every you fel the need to do. I went from a nice paying software develpment company in the SF Bay area making tons of contacts "networking" in other companies (IT and other), to moving to San Diego, driving small boats real fast, shooting weapons and blowing things up ( as well as going to war
Good luck.
You really start hitting your stride as a developer after a decade or two ... because by then you've seen and tried so many different ways to solve so many different problems that it actually becomes fun again.
Oh - BTW - Take the money.
One was a nice Sr. Consulting gig for a major IT services firm. They tried demanding that I give them copies of all my tax and financial records for the last five years. While I have nothing to hide... I still felt very uncomfortable. When I voiced my concerns to the hiring manager, he said it was "Standard Company Policy". Hmmm... O.K.- I don't even work for you yet and you are already giving me the corporate runaround? I politely turned them down.
The other one was for a client in NJ. I was contacted by an Indian firm and I caught them being dishonest with me. Not once, but twice! There must have been five or six phone calls to me from different levels of management asking why that was a problem... after all it's "Just Business". I told them that "I don't do business that way". I have been looking for a gig ever since.
I would rather be poor and still have my principles than be a rich liar.
Just my $0.02.
Cheers!
'Do...
About relocating for a job.
If you've got the social skills necessary to make new friends easily*, or the move won't automatically mean your friends are no longer accessable, it's worth considering moving for a significant increase in compensation.
I moved for a job once. Nearly accross the continent (North America & East-West axis). Not being a terribly gregarious person, and as indiosyncratic and paranoid as I am, it was miserable. It takes me at a long time to get to know anyone outside of the people I already know. It took about about 4 and a half months to get the first person to the preliminary friend stage.
*or are a sociopath and don't need friends
Thanks to the internet, we can now all die alone together! -SomeWoman
"The mark of an immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one."
Don't be stupid and quit a job over a stupid operating system or programming language. That is immature. You got brainwashed into a religious cause, and the only person who got screwed is you, because now you are out of a job. No one else cares. C# will continue to be used, and no one is worse off except for yourself.
Next time, be the mature man, not the immature man.
My company was bought recently, and is in the process of becoming a C# VisualStudio shop. I said thanks, but no thanks and left. Am I a fool for giving up steady work and good pay?
The short answer is: yes, you are.
Given the crappy state of the industry as it is right now, quitting a high paying job over a (minor?) technology direction change is probably not a very bright idea. It sounds even worse if you factor in your apparent lack of experience with the new environment - you don't even stick around long enough to give it a try, right?
That being said, I can understand your choice. I don't particularly like the MS tools style, always have been more of a Borland type. But it goes deeper than this:
There are really two types of developers, namely the mercenaries and the artists. Most people are mercenaries. They just come to work, and as long as things are not absolutely terrible, they just do exactly what was specified. Then, after 8 hours, they pack up and leave their workplace to do whatever their real interests are. If you're a mercenary, it's totally stupid for you to quit over a tools issue like this.
The Artists, on the other hand, are people who shape the projects they implement. They are the ones with the vision, the ones who invest their soul into the product. If you're an artist, commands from management, like a change in technology or tools, can have a huge impact. Such a change can make your environment hostile, especially if the new direction conflicts with your ideals. Frankly, you don't sound like an artist, but if you are one, you have to quit over this and start over somewhere new where management shares your values and ideals.
Most companies really frown on the artist thing. They'd rather hire 5 mercenaries than 1 artist. Artists are difficult to manage traditionally, and they impose a constant danger of doing things that run contrary to the pointy-haired-boss school of business.
Take the Executive Manager job and don't look back.
Some people wait for many years before having an opportunity like that open up for them.
I turned down a similar offer once and it took me almost 15 years before another chance like it came back around.
Don't be a fool. You can always write code.
If I get up in the morning and absolutely DREAD going to work every morning for a week, you can bet I'll be gone within another week. There is NO reason not to enjoy what you do. You spend at least as much time on your day job as you do sleeping, working on hobbies, or any other activity in your life. I've always considered it imperative to enjoy reporting to work. When a decent technical career soured, guess what? I found out that I enjoyed tending bar. Granted the recompense wasn't the best but it got me by until I could find something more suitable. Bottom line is, if you haven't painted yourself into a financial/lifestyle corner you can do what you damn well please and the nay-sayers can go piss up a rope.
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
This is a great illustration of the maxim that the samurai who does not fear death becomes invincible.
Hey, it worked for Jesus.
i've had work i've hated and quit for all of these reasons. ethics, ambition, pride, or disgust.. they all tie in don't they?
i don't make a lot of money, but i love my life, i love what i would do and i wouldn't change a thing... you have to live with yourself and you only get one chance to live your life... clich'e due to the truth.
whatever you're doing... if you can't stand it. get out.. thats no way to live.
-grover
I was working on the rail road all the live long day, and quite literally. Going to work 3 times every two days and having only 4 hours of sleep between jobs if I was lucky. The unions, politics between the workers and manangement, and the hours turned me into a fat miserable person, till I quit.
I didn't have anything lined up when I gave them my notice. I am currently living off of student loans and handouts while trying to pay for my brand new vehicle and college.
I was able to land a decent job at the local oil company (beats McD's) as a part time IT person. Making decent pay, but nothing like I did when on the railroad.
My recommendation is to find a better job. Have something lined up before hand. The economy is tight and you might not be able to find a better job and good luck!
Did you complain to management or to the police? Assault with a deadly weapon isn't something the police usually take lightly.
I was at a well-known software shop. A senior tech lead tried to put me through my paces: implement lookup for a singly-linked list, then insert, then delete, etc. I thought maybe it was just a warmup, but he kept asking more CS1-ish algorithms and coding questions. Then the next guy continued on the same way, and it went on all day. After an hour or two I felt no urge to work there. After all, it did say clearly on my resume that my previous jobs were teaching the graduate-level course in data structures and algorithms at a well-known university and hacking compilers (for a private company). If I'd been a little more cocky instead of trying to be polite, I could have told them to simply look up the answers to most of the questions in my on-line lecture notes or assignment solution sets...
Maybe it was a test of my patience. If so, I failed.
Am I part of the core demographic for Swedish Fish?
Am I a fool for giving up steady work and good pay?
No fool are you. Do what you believe in and what you enjoy. Life is too short for any other way.
-- $G
Are you happy now?
If so then it worked.
If not, shake the Magic 8-ball and try again.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
My story... I was a developer at a large company with good pay, great benefits, interesting work, good work environment, and a fantastic boss. A former employee of mine called me up with a job offer for a non-development (but development related) job in an exciting industry. I wasn't all that excited about the specific job, but the 90% pay raise and the specific industry convinced me.
Almost 4 years later, I have to say that I've given it my best shot, and the money is definitely great, but the job itself is leaching my soul away and I've started looking for something else. The work isn't actually bad, other people there love it, but it's just not a good fit for my personality / abilities. It got to where every day I had to basically talk myself into actually going to work, every work day was long and depressing, and I was always counting the days til the weekend which I never did before.
So I'm looking for something in development again, and getting used to the idea of living on about half my current salary (hopefully!) For me at least, I have to say the money was nice in and of itself, but not worth the stress and angst.
I'm surprised that no own has discussed the idea sometimes called 'downshifting'. You know, it's not a requirement of life to have a beige condo, a mortgaged car, and dependent wife- although you might get sucked into those things in reverse order if you fall under the wrong person's spell. :)
;), baking your own bread, and building stuff with dumpster-dived lumber.
From my perspective, there is plenty to make life sweet, purposeful, and meaningful without bringing in big money.. things like the public library, a directional wifi antenna
Looking at the last 1000 years, someone living in a relatively simply way in the modern west, and working part time still has options for living far beyond what most of humankind felt pretty happy with during most of that time. To put it another way, how would you feel towards the person of the future who essentially asked 'Should I quit my job? I'd be giving up my 5000 square foot home, I'd have to learn to use a kitchen, and start wearing clothes more than once, so I guess that's not really an option. I better have another job lined up first.'?..
The same can be true even if you have a good job.
In fact, many bosses aren't even around to notice the extra effort you are putting in to your job, since they went home long ago. Some will mistake detication for free productivity - and just keep handing you enough work to make sure you keep eating lunch and dinner at your desk, and forfit a personal life.
Instead, I suggest that it is EVERY employee's responsibility to maintain an active communication stream (even PR) with his boss, and co-workers. Document what you do. Make the documentation readily available/obvious. Send an UN-solicited status report email to your boss at LEAST once per month, twice is better. The fact that the boss got something extra that was NOT asked for should make it stand out, and instantly suspect -but this is actually for YOUR benefit, not just the boss. Include some form of *question* about your work in the email, asking how to procede, or priorities, whatever... Because of that question, the boss has to at least acknowlege that you sent the message, and s/he read it. If you don't get a reply, mention it in the hall or on the phone a day later, when you are talking about something else. After a few of these, the boss figures you are involving them in the decision process - and your subsequent emails DO get read with a little more detail - in case there were other questions.
Include a simple list of current tasks, and recent accomplishments. Including priority expected hours, requirements, problems, deliverables. If the boss wants to change the priority, OK- if not, then they have implied agreement with your current plan of action, in writing, which reduces disputes later.
BE productive, but don't be taken for granted.
Bummer- but that's life, (and they werent paying for late hours anyway, were they...)
In fact, make it a firm policy to finish what you are working on 10 min before the end of your day, spend 5 min documenting things, 5 min to tidy up or pack your stuff, and then cheerfully LEAVE! (with the unspoken implication that you have already planned things after work)
Now that you have THAT working schedule in place- the boss has to specificly ASK you to work late, and perhaps even pre-schedule, since you may have other plans right after work. If the boss ASKs you to put in the extra hours, then it's no longer free volunteer labor, and you might expect to be paid too... or at least have comp-hours added for time off later. (well, you can hope)
Now- to make this work requires some personal DICIPLINE. Make the job hours PRODUCTIVE, not just THERE for nine hours.
Time management is KEY, visibility helps, deliverables rule.
-- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero
I think you've got it wrong... if you're only making 20k/year trippling that would make a lot more difference. that would take you from the edge of poverty to being pretty darned well off. going from 60k to 180k is a larger numerical difference but it would make less quality of living difference
Jeremy Logan's Website.