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eBay Accused of Price Gouging Scheme

Symbiot writes "eBay is being sued in a Calilfornia court for a practice that the plaintiff, Glenn Block of Pennsylvania, claims artificially raises the amount of a bid. The practice combines the warning emails that eBay sends out when you are the highest bidder and your bid is at your maximum, with the bid increment mechanism. It seems that if your original maximum bid settnig prevents your current bid from falling on an increment then your current bid will be raised to the next increment as soon as you raise your maximum. If the plaintiff wins this class action suit could cost eBay tens or hundreds of millions of dollars."

91 of 427 comments (clear)

  1. Had Similar Experiences by ackthpt · · Score: 5, Interesting
    "Based on what we know about what's being alleged, it appears the plaintiff completely misunderstands the functionality of the eBay bidding system," eBay spokesman Hani Durzy said. He said the company had not yet seen the lawsuit.

    Bullshit. This happened to me once.

    I had a max of say 100.01 and another bidder had bid 100.00 while the current high was substantially lower, so it showed 'You have been outbid the current high bid is 100.01' Now, they could bid at least 102.51 and take the lead or had figured that was just too much, either way, I see that they have homed in and I raise my cap to 125.00, suddenly my high bid is 102.50 rather than 100.01.

    To shed a different light on this, there was another time a similar thing happened, but when I reloaded the page later it would revert back to my prior high bid, which can be handy for disguising what your actual new cap is. I'm sure they know all about it and had fiddled with the way it works.

    It happened once to my knowledge, so I'm probably only entitled to a couple bucks, but it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

    If the plaintiff wins this class action suit could cost eBay tens or hundreds of millions of dollars."

    I think that's a gross exaggeration of the problem, however it could cost eBay a lot in man-hours auditting the results of every auction since the beginning to determine who is entitled to a refund.

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    1. Re:Had Similar Experiences by Wakkow · · Score: 2, Informative

      "I see that they have homed in and I raise my cap to 125.00, suddenly my high bid is 102.50 rather than 100.01."

      I've noticed this as well.. but . . .

      "when I reloaded the page later it would revert back to my prior high bid, which can be handy for disguising what your actual new cap is. I'm sure they know all about it and had fiddled with the way it works."

      This is probably your browser caching the old page, which I've also had happen. It's not their fault you need to reload the page.

    2. Re:Had Similar Experiences by MBraynard · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The real question is whether or not this is in the fine print. If it isn't, either a CA judge or a jury is going to give Ebay a mighty whoopin where they will have to refund the embezzled amount to everyone.

      And please keep note as to whether Ebay stops this practice before the court requires them to as an indication of the confidence in their innocence.

    3. Re:Had Similar Experiences by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Informative

      I had a max of say 100.01 and another bidder had bid 100.00 while the current high was substantially lower, so it showed 'You have been outbid the current high bid is 100.01' Now, they could bid at least 102.51 and take the lead or had figured that was just too much, either way, I see that they have homed in and I raise my cap to 125.00, suddenly my high bid is 102.50 rather than 100.01

      But for the minor fact that eBay tells you this is how the bidding system works. If you wanted to avoid this then you just should have bid $125.00 to begin with. On eBay if somebody else bids the same amount (within the increment) as you did then you are still the high bidder because you placed that bid earlier. When you decided to up that to $125.00 that bid took over -- hence the later bid was the winning bid and it needed to be higher then not equal to the previous bid. This is all documented on eBay's site.

      I think that's a gross exaggeration of the problem, however it could cost eBay a lot in man-hours auditting the results of every auction since the beginning to determine who is entitled to a refund.

      I doubt they'd bother with the audit. They'd just put X amount of dollars into a fund and tell everybody who might be eligible that they could collect from it. Better then half won't bother -- is my time to fill out and read that document worth a few bucks?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    4. Re:Had Similar Experiences by orkysoft · · Score: 5, Funny

      Marked as: WONTFIX

      --

      I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
    5. Re:Had Similar Experiences by michael+path · · Score: 3, Funny

      This is a repeatable behavior. Feel free to test it on my auctions :)

      More seriously, I didn't understand why this would automatically increase my bid when I was the highest bidder. I assumed it was buried in some terms and conditions, but I didn't think it was fair - because yes, you're actually registering a new bid against yourself.

      If this is indeed in their terms somewhere, then I have no issue writing it off as an annoyance.

    6. Re:Had Similar Experiences by ackthpt · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I agree the practice is bunk, but would hate to see eBay thrown into bankruptcy over something like this.

      Don't worry, they're making money hand over fist and a few hundred million, if it came to that, would be a drop in the bucket. They should probably worry more about class actions suits in regard to PayPal's practices.

      Personally I'm not sure I could live in a world without eBay.

      Je suis d'accord. But as they keep fscking around with their formula I loathe them more and more each day.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    7. Re:Had Similar Experiences by ArmchairGenius · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I am as close to 100% sure as I can be that Ebay has liability insurance (D&O insurance) that would cover this type of claim.

      So even if it did cost them "hundreds of millions" - which it won't - they would be okay because their insurance would pick up all/most of that.

      If the suit doesn't get dismissed, it will probably settle for significantly less than what the story projects - and probably not even cash but "ebay coupons" or something like that instead, plus cash to the plaintiff's lawyers.

    8. Re:Had Similar Experiences by chimpo13 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Class action lawsuit means lawyers make money. This has happened to me on eBay but I never thought about bitching about it. They do a few other slimey things for me to think about this one.

      Everyone will get an email from eBay saying they're eligible for a refund. 95% won't make it past most spam filters.

    9. Re:Had Similar Experiences by compwizrd · · Score: 2, Interesting

      back in the day, onsale.com used to extend an auction if there was a last minute bid.

      and every time there was a bid after that, they'd extend it again.

      i was bidding on some micropolis hard drives, there were a couple hundred drives in the auction.

      if even ONE bidder changed their bid, it'd add the extension time.. so after a day or two of that, onsale.com finally had to end the auction.. they'd probably STILL be bidding on them a month later..

    10. Re:Had Similar Experiences by lpevey · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm sure the claim was noticed under the policy, but it should not be paid. This type of claim is not what D&O policies are designed to cover. Also, D&O policies have what are known as conduct exclusions, which carve out coverage for fraud, among other things. However, if the suit proves legitimate and this causes the stockholders of eBay to sue the D's and O's for failure to supervise or some other such cause of action, the policy might then respond (depending on the specific policy terms, like whether there is severability for the innocent D's & O's).

      Secondly, I doubt eBay has "hundreds of millions" of limit in their D&O program. Even if every insurance carrier who cared to was participating on a given program, there's limited capacity. I think the most even an AIG would put up on a risk is $25 million, perhaps up to $50 million if there is reinsurance. Large companies build a program with many layers to a total of maybe $100 million, sometimes (but rarely) more.

      Disclaimer: I am an underwriter, but the statements above are not professional advice or opinion. I am not an underwriter on eBay's program.

    11. Re:Had Similar Experiences by daveo0331 · · Score: 3, Informative
      --
      Remember the days when Republicans were the party of fiscal responsibility?
    12. Re:Had Similar Experiences by uhlume · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not reliably, no. Compliance with this functionality varies considerably by browser.

      --
      SIERRA TANGO FOXTROT UNIFORM
    13. Re:Had Similar Experiences by 3terrabyte · · Score: 2, Insightful
      ANYONE that has sold 20 or more items in the past will completely agree with you.

      You might make money on ebay, but without a doubt, ebay is the one getting rich. And good for them, to a point. The Paypal shit, though, will get them burned in hell.

      --

      Why are there only 19 people folding@home for slashdot?

    14. Re:Had Similar Experiences by cgenman · · Score: 4, Funny

      Everyone will get an email from eBay saying they're eligible for a refund. 95% won't make it past most spam filters.

      That's awesome! I'll have to try that next time I'm forced to repay people.

      "I am Former Ebay President and Nigerian Billionaire. Though this proposal may be very surprise to you as we have not met in any way before.

      I got your contact address through your country's judiciary and feel you will serve as a reliable source to be used to achieve this aim, by trusting under the care of you and other people like you (the plaintifs) the total sum of THIRTY MILLION US DOLLARS (US $30M). Does that not make you stand up and take notice? You have not tried Cialls yet?

      - The settlement lasts 36 hours!
      - you are ready to start within just 10 minutes!
      - you can mix it with alcohol!

      Choose the time and the place. Our settlement will do the rest. Now 2 - 10 times cheaper than our competitors!

      Please include the details of your case information including your Ebay(tm) username, the ten-digit auction number, and the names of the other parties involved. By joining this settlement you agree to indemnify Ebay and all of it's affiliates against all future liability with respect to the action at hand. Include your contact phone number so we can send your case information to law firms that have successfully settled cases in your area.

      Friend, you may be a winner! I is being confused. Why have you not claimed your cash? Do you not like cash?

      Sincerely,
      The Law Office of Dewie, Cheatem, and Howe
      "

    15. Re:Had Similar Experiences by I_Love_Pocky! · · Score: 2, Funny

      If they have thousands of auctions going every day over the period of a couple years, the small percentage they get from the extra $1.50 or so can start adding up if they are affecting a large number of bidders.

      This sounds just like Superman III!

  2. zerg by Lord+Omlette · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The seller has to pay a fee to get an item listed, the seller has to pay another fee when money is sent via PayPal. That is the real price gouging.

    --
    [o]_O
    1. Re:zerg by ackthpt · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The seller has to pay a fee to get an item listed, the seller has to pay another fee when money is sent via PayPal. That is the real price gouging.

      You forgot that the seller also has to cough up a % of the final sale price.

      One thing I can say is good, though, is that eBay doesn't nail bidders for a fee as well. I've had to shell some $$ in the past on other auctions and thought that was pretty scurvy, but it actually is practice at many large auction houses. Sothebys and the like didn't become famous for their charity to buyers and sellers.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    2. Re:zerg by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, that's a legit charge for services. You pay a fee to use their service to list your item. They have to make money at it somehow. PayPal is then an optional service, again that you can pay for. You don't have to use PayPal to take money, you could get yourself an account wiht someone like Verifone and take credit cards yourself, but that also costs money.

      They provide a service that is valuable to you, I see no problem with them wanting to make money on it.

    3. Re:zerg by Lord+Omlette · · Score: 2, Insightful
      One thing I can say is good, though, is that eBay doesn't nail bidders for a fee as well.
      You're absolutely right, thank God for small favors.

      The only thing I can think of is that buyers outnumber sellers, and they need to maintain those high # of bidders in order to stay attractive to sellers... So they try their damndest not to scare them away.

      Or something. I've never tried other auction places. ^^;;
      --
      [o]_O
    4. Re:zerg by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not gouging when you voluntarily participate in the system knowing the fees.

    5. Re:zerg by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Informative

      Maybe I'm missing something here, but ... ... How can there be more buyers than sellers?

      There's more potential buyers then actual sellers. Not every bid for an item wins after all....

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    6. Re:zerg by rs79 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "Or something. I've never tried other auction places"

      Don't bother. I collect old watches and one day I saw a watch I wanted. At $50, no reserve. I emailed the guy to see if he'd take $250 (about a quarter of what it's worth, hey, it's worked in the past) and he said he'd just sold it for $200 and can't understand why it didn't sell in a month on Yahoo auctions with a buy it now price of $100.

      ebay has no competition. That's bad in a way, but it's also good in that you only have to look in one place.

      I don't sell on ebay, only buy and its saved me tons of money. Actually it's cost me tons of money, but I got way more for the money than I'd get paying retail.

      In fact, I just noticed I don't really buy much on stores at all any more.

      --
      Need Mercedes parts ?
    7. Re:zerg by penguinoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not in one sense, but if they are a monopoly they could be thought of as gouging even if you voluntarily agreed to their terms. This applies only to a small extent to eBay, since their product/service is not necessary and they are not a total monopoly, but I think it could be justified.

      --
      Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
  3. Plaintiff doesn't understand bidding increments by Shnizzzle · · Score: 3, Insightful

    From the article: "EBay automatically increases bids only when the maximum has been hit and when the prior top bid was between bidding increments. For example, bidding increments on items priced between $100 and $249.99 is $2.50. Block, however, raised his bid increment by $1.50." therefore his bid increment would not be enough to secure the item.

  4. It's true. by Cap'n+Steve · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've actually managed to outbid myself several times. It's very annoying.

  5. Another article at InternetNews.com by 3nuff · · Score: 5, Informative

    ...with a little more substance than the Reuters.com blurb can be found here.

    --
    "Give me taste, give me funk, give me fury, gimme some more."
    1. Re:Another article at InternetNews.com by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 5, Funny

      +++++++++++++Very good information, Quick to load, trustworthy poster, would click again.

      --
      liqbase :: faster than paper
  6. Let me be the first to say by SlayerofGods · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Whoopty fucking doo.
    We're talking about maybe a dollar more here?
    And that amount is still below what you set you were willing to pay.
    This seems more like a bug then some sort of evil scam.

    --

    Technology, the cause of and solution to all of life's problems.
  7. No sympathy from me. by miskatonic+alumnus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In the first place, no one held a gun to his head to make him increase his maximum. In the second place, if he originally thought the item was worth x$, why increase it?

    Learn to snipe, cherry boy.

  8. what? by duhasteifersucht · · Score: 2, Funny

    whats a settnig? is it a type of fig or nut?

    --
    cha-ching. money baby... money
  9. The whole lawsuit is summarised in one line by lakeland · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just read the article, the last line of it summarises the entire lawsuit:

    EBay had net revenue of $3.27 billion in 2004.

  10. Paycheck Shavings by mixtape5 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Ahh it is whoopty fucking doo though.

    And a dollar is actually a lot for such schemes. For example it is illegal for a boss to shave a minute off of your clock time even though it may only be worth a few cents extra. Doing that could save a large company hundreds if not thousands of dollars per pay period. The people recieving the checks probably wouldnt notice either, but it is still cheating people of money and illegal.

    The same reason the "money shaving" scheme in office space was wrong comes to mind.

    --
    WoW: Scheod 70 orc warlock on Shadowmoon
    1. Re:Paycheck Shavings by ipfwadm · · Score: 2, Funny

      The same reason the "money shaving" scheme in office space was wrong comes to mind.

      But it wasn't wrong. Initech was wrong!

  11. URL by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Informative

    In the bad form of replying to my own post I found the help section on eBay that explains this policy. To quote:

    Let's say you are tied with another bidder and you hold the official high bid because you placed that bid amount first. If you place another bid, you will lose your favored "early bird" status. As a result of putting in another bid (causing you to become a later bidder), the system will increase your bid to one bid increment more than the previous bid just so that you can keep the position of high bidder.

    Another instance where it would appear that you are bidding against yourself would be if your current high bid is between bid increments. If you were to place another bid, your bid will increase to the next round bid increment.

    The high bid will always try to be a full bid increment over the next highest bid. If you are currently less than one bid increment over the next highest bid, then raising your maximum bid will increase the current high bid to a full bid increment above the next highest bid.

    --
    I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
    We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    1. Re:URL by Ryan+C. · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Thanks for the relevant info. That helps show where the problem lies, but it really helps support the suit, not defend it.

      One problem here is that the bids in question were not tied, unless you accept Ebays twisted definition of tied as "closer than the bidding increment".

      Two, defining the raising your maximum proxy bid as a new bid is contrary to any other proxy auction ever held. Even if you accept that it is a new bid of the same amount, isn't your previous bid still the oldest at that price?

      IANAL, but redefining commonly accepted practices in a contract or license almost never stands up in court. For example, if the fine print in a contract says "We define "purchase" to mean we come and take it back in 3 months", a court would throw that part of the contract out because it runs counter to the commonly accepted definition of "purchase".

      The last paragraph you refereneced at least tells you outright what will happen. But it's so counterintutive and counter to common proxy auction practices that I don't think it will matter in court.

      --
      -Ryan C.
    2. Re:URL by ameoba · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you're raising your bid after your initial bid, you deserve an idiot tax. Changing bids reflects a complete misunderstanding of the basic premise of the eBay auction.

      --
      my sig's at the bottom of the page.
    3. Re:URL by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, it's always been like this. Amazing sombody is suing 'cause they found a loophole to screw themselves!

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    4. Re:URL by jasen666 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How does it support the suit? It's documented procedure. When you sign up with ebay, you're expected to read and understand how the process works. Just because you're too lazy too, doesn't make you eligible to sue them for something you should have known before you started bidding.
      Ebay tells you it works this way. If you use the system you agree to those terms. The suit is frivilous.

    5. Re:URL by jasen666 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No shit. It's like people can't understand what "maximim bid" means. I mean, decide what the highest amount you're willing to pay for that item is, and set it. If you win you win, if not then you didn't overpay for that item. Obviously, if you need to go back in and raise it later, then you didn't actually put your maximum bid in to start with.
      Either that, or they caught the "auction bug" and can't help themselves from trying to outbid someone. It's as bad as gambling "sickness" sometimes.

    6. Re:URL by mrdaveb · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think that's going a bit far. Have you never tried to buy an item where lots of people are selling the same thing? Sure, I might be prepared to pay up to £100 for one, but if someone lists an identical one the next day, I'd rather have the option of trying a £50 bid on the first, and then bidding on the cheaper one if I get outbid. There's nothing worse than having your bid automatically incrementing whilst you are watching someone else get the same thing much cheaper.

      Of course, auction sniping is the real way to go. Prevents all those fickle people upping their bids maximums.

      --
      Homme petit d'homme petit, s'attend, n'avale
    7. Re:URL by mcc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      One problem here is that the bids in question were not tied, unless you accept Ebays twisted definition of tied as "closer than the bidding increment".

      This is probably ebay's definition of tied because this is probably what the internal definition of "tied" is according to the computer program that runs the site.

      From the perspective of a programmer the definition they're using makes perfect and immediate sense, they're just using an internal representation based on the bid increment rather than dollars and cents.

      IANAL, but redefining commonly accepted practices in a contract or license almost never stands up in court.

      I don't really see that as relevant. Ebay invented the ebay bidding system, they defined how it works, and it's never worked any other way.

      I have trouble sympathizing with the accusers in this case at all since the best they can come up with is "but the web page didn't describe the policy as clearly as it could have!" even though eBay's FAQ explains things in more detail.

      It seems pretty obvious that the policy is what it is not because ebay's scamming money, but just because their software is written in a certain way. Maybe this isn't "intuitive" but I don't see why ebay is under a legal obligation to be "intuitive".

    8. Re:URL by bwt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What nobody is talking about is that there are two aspects to the proxy bidding system: the maximum bid and the timestamp associated with that bid. Each named bidder is only allowed one such pair to control their bidding.

      The plaintiff here wants to get out of this one "max/timestamp pair" situation with the best of both worlds -- they want to use the later and larger max, but they also want to keep their earlier timestamp, which allows them a non full increment bid.

      Think of it this way: you told it to max you out at 100.09. Somebody else bid it up to 100.00. What makes you think you have the right to increase that by .09 cents, less than the next increment? It is the timestamp of your proxy bid. But when you change the value of your proxy, you changed the timestamp.

      The kicker here is that the priviledge of winning by less than the bid increment comes with a definite disadvantage -- your auction opponent looks out and sees his bid of 100.00 beat by your bid of 100.09. He should fairly be able to ask "why is that jerk not required to bid up to the increment". The only fair answer is if he can rely on the fact that your 100.09 top bid reveals that you are maxed out and that he surpass your proxy max by bidding 101.09. If you are allowed to raise your proxy max without raising your current bid, he should be able to bid 101.09 and force you to bid 102.09. Instead, your new proxy max and timestamp puts you with the high current bid of 101.00 and forces your opponent to bid 102.00, which gives you an advantage towards winning the item since this is higher than the alternative where they could bid 101.09. This may be enough of an advantage to cause you to win. In short -- there was NO GUARANTEE you would have won with your original 100.09, since you are not able to decide for your opponent what his course of action would have been.

      The reason the plaintiff will lose this case is that
      1) the rules were clear ahead of time
      2) raising your proxy max invalidates your old proxy timestamp which is what permitted the non-increment raise
      3) there is no guarantee your original high bid would have won (and thus no proof of harm)
      4) You cannot prove that you didn't actually pay LESS because of this system.
      A) you were less vulnerable to sniping because your opponents could no longer infer that your current bid was your proxy max, and
      B) your opponents would have had to raise two full increments above their previous bid to test you.

    9. Re:URL by daVinci1980 · · Score: 4, Informative
      unless you accept Ebays twisted definition of tied as "closer than the bidding increment"

      Actually, that is commonly accepted auctioning practice, according to any number of well-known and very reputable auction houses.

      Just because eBay does it online doesn't mean they shouldn't respect the tried and true method of bidding in increments. Otherwise people would get very snarked as someone goes in and outbids them by pennies everytime.

      Bidding in increments has been around auctions since the 1700s. Why should eBay do it any differently?
      --
      I currently have no clever signature witicism to add here.
    10. Re:URL by aussie_a · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The premise being Ebay has bad code. The code should NOT allow you to bid against yourself. They can justify it with "that's how the code works, we like it like that" but it's bad code. It's a bad design to allow you to bid against yourself. People shouldn't have to guard against bad code when making bids. They should put a check, where if you up your maximum it checks to see if your the highest bidder.

      Not doing this at best is bad code, at worst it's deliberately ripping people off.

      Who here, expects to bid against themselves when bidding (online or offline)? I don't think many people would say they do (unless they already know about Ebay's questionable code).

    11. Re:URL by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2, Funny
      Of course, auction sniping is the real way to go.

      Is that where you shoot everyone else who might bid, and then just bid the reserve yourself? Worked for me...

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  12. Riiight... by Telastyn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So, eBay is price gouging an -auction- whose parameters [set increments] are defined well before the customer participates?

    Perhaps I'm missing some nuance of law, but this seems like something that eBay's lawyers [and the judge] will toss into the street with a nice lengthy brief which summarizes to "RTFM!".

    1. Re:Riiight... by fishbowl · · Score: 2, Interesting


      "So, eBay is price gouging an -auction- whose parameters [set increments] are defined well before the customer participates?"

      If it's written in the rules that incrementing your limit also increments your bid, I don't see how this has merit as a legal case for damages. Just one more reason to decide what you will pay for an item, bid that amount, and be done with it win or lose.

      I have never really gotten any benefit from the last minute bidding war. Someone who does that against me was willing to pay more than me in the first place. I'm not going to get emotional or get an adrenaline rush and suddenly decide it's worth more than my original bid.

      But, I'm a big fan of buy-it-now and I really like to use merchants who do their stores on ebay.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  13. Well... by evolutionaryLawyer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Actually once you get above $1k, the bid increments are much higher, so it could be $25-$50 difference. Multiply that enough times, and it is a big number. But ebay is not the beneficiary, the seller is, so...

    1. Re:Well... by EnronHaliburton2004 · · Score: 2, Informative

      But ebay is not the beneficiary, the seller is, so...

      Ebay is a beneficiary.

      Ebay takes a percentage of the earnings. If the final bid is inflated, then Ebay makes more money.

  14. Slightly Offtopic - Civic Duty? by ParadoxicalPostulate · · Score: 5, Insightful


    Something bothers me about the nature of civil suits and monetary awards in this country.

    Why is it that we make it a habit of running off with as much money as we possibly can from a lawsuit?

    The purpose of suing for this sort of stuff should be twofold: 1) to regulate company action by means of threat and penalty AND 2) reparations. Nowhere in those two clauses do I find any justification for "screwing the other guy over because he did it to me first."

    It seems to me that few suits are about that anymore. While its true that you are entitled to sue if a company takes advantage of you, often times the rabidity with which "wronged" plaintiffs style their demands leads me to wonder if they are simply taking advantage of the momentary shift in power.

    In that scenario, it's no longer about punishing the one who took advantage of you because he could. It's about turning around and taking full advantage of him, because now you can.

    1. Re:Slightly Offtopic - Civic Duty? by rjstanford · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There's one easy fix to that. Keep actual damages the same that they are now, awarded to the plantiff (or "damaged party"). Allow punative damages? Sure, but they go straight to pay of the national debt (or whatever).

      Weird? Well, the purpose of punative damages is for the "system" to punish the defendant, so having the system (ie: government) benefit seems reasonable at first glance. Much more reasonable than benefitting the plaintiff, who has already received their damage claim. And it would cut down an awful lot on frivolous lawsuits if people knew that they wouldn't be getting a windfall, just what they (rightly) deserved.

      Lawyers might be a little less likely to push some of the more questionable cases also, if they knew that their fees wouldn't include a percentage of the punative amount (usually vastly greater than any actual damages). You could still sue for actual + punative + legal fees, of course.

      --
      You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
    2. Re:Slightly Offtopic - Civic Duty? by odin53 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Some states have this system, sort of, where the plaintiff gets a portion of the punitive award and the state gets the rest -- laws implementing this are called "split award" statutes.

      There has been some interesting work done on whether this system is, overall, welfare-improving. It may be intuitive that such a system cuts down on frivolous lawsuits, but it wouldn't be good if it cut down on justifiable lawsuits, too. Not only would potential plaintiffs not be compensated for wrongs, it could lessen the incentive of a defendant to avoid doing the wrongs. (Avoiding these problems -- in addition to possible constitutional problems -- is probably why no state has a 100% "split" award statute.)

      And it's not clear that lawyers might be less likely to push the more questionable cases -- in fact, they might be more likely to push them, because under such a system all plaintiffs have an increased incentive to settle cases, which costs plaintiffs' attorneys (working on a contingency fee basis) less money and time (so in aggregate they can bring more).

  15. It's very well documented on eBay's site by winkydink · · Score: 4, Insightful
    How the bidding increments work and all that. It has been there since 1997 when I joined.

    I liken this to a physical auction where the auctioneer is saying, "I have $100, do I hear $150, $150?" He's looking for $150, not for some dimwit to yell $110. If he gets no bites at $100, he may sell at $100 or ask for $125. What he doesn't do is throw it open for said dimewit to say, "I'll give you $100.01."

    --

    "I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey

  16. Nobody seems to understand... by syukton · · Score: 5, Informative

    Nobody seems to understand the problem here. It isn't about winning auctions. It's about eBay automatically increasing your bid for no real reason.

    Here's the scenario:

    You bid on an item for, say, $80.
    Somebody comes along, bids $75.
    Your bid is auto-incremented to $76 to beat out this other bidder.
    You, getting nervous that somebody might usurp your spot with a max bid of $80, increase your maximum.
    When you increase your maximum bid, eBay automatically increments the CURRENT bid value by the increment amount, EVEN THOUGH YOU WERE THE CURRENT HIGH BIDDER TO BEGIN WITH.

    This is where the price gouging comes in. You are already the high bidder, you're just increasing your maximum bid. It shouldn't increase the current bid when the current high bidder increases his maximum, though. That is totally nonintuitive. The system interprets your maximum bid increase as a "competing bid" however and checks its max value against the current max bid value, and if greater, it "bids" on the item with the new max value, increasing the cost by the minimum increment, just as if ANOTHER bidder had come along and bid on the item at a higher value.

    It's like you're bidding against yourself whenever you increase your maximum bid, and THIS is the price gouge that is to be disliked.

    --
    Reinvent the wheel only at either a lower cost, greater effectiveness, or your own personal enrichment and satisfaction.
    1. Re:Nobody seems to understand... by allanc · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Except that that's not what happens. This issue only happens when someone else bids $80.

      Your bid is now $80, but you still win because you were there first.

      However, if you *then* bump your max bid higher, it'll bump your current bid up an increment.

      Know how you solve this problem? Actually make your max bid the maximum amount you're willing to pay for the item to start with, like you're supposed to.

    2. Re:Nobody seems to understand... by Kris_J · · Score: 3, Insightful
      We have a winner. This happened to me one time, years back. I worked it all out then and your description matches my memory.

      However, your solution misses the same scenario that eBay's cut 'n paste response does: What if I'm bidding on multiple items within a single budget. In those cases, I bid less that I'm willing to pay for each individual item to keep my commitment below a certain level. Each time I'm outbid on something, my total commitment goes down, then I can increase my bids on one or more remaining items.

  17. That ain't all by Stumbles · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Yeah I've noticed that. Another thing I have noticed when "shopping" around there. There will be an item with say a 7 day auction and it's on day 4 and there were 6 bidders. I see a number of instances where some are all of them bidders have been signed up as a buyer for 2+ years and bought nothing in all that time. But all of a sudden they decide they want the item I want. Hmmmmm.

    --
    My karma is not a Chameleon.
  18. Re:A better buyer's market? by Tsiangkun · · Score: 2, Informative

    I've scored some really nice items on ebay, antiques and such.

    The problem for me is two fold.

    1) I can't see the items to get an appreciation of the quality, age, wear, and authenticity. I take the sellers word for it, which is generally very verbose and well described. I bid near top dollar and hope the seller is honestly describing the item. I'm a collector, not a bargain hunter.

    2) A lot of people are on ebay, so if the verbose description of an item has the right words, all the collectors find the item. Raising the price for the seller.

    The best deals have been from sellers who didn't know what they had, and listed it with some other unrelated item I was persuing as a package deal.
    It's very hard to find a bargain price for a well listed well described item that it in any sort of demand.

    The best purchases have been at top dollar for good merchandise I would not be able to find locally.

    I think it's a win for everyone but the bargain hunting buyers.

  19. Re:This is the kind of thing... by John+Miles · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Once again the little-guy gets the short end of the stick

    Maybe the 'little guy' needs to be a little more careful with the pointy end of the stick, if he doesn't want the big guys to come and take the stick away.

    This is a perfect example of a frivolous lawsuit. Some functional illiterate from the Land of Fruits and Nuts logged onto eBay and placed a couple of bids without having his mommy read him the eBay terms of service first. It's amazing (and frightening) how few eBay users actually understand how eBay auctions work.

    --
    Dahlmann tightly grips the knife, which he may have no idea how to use, and steps out into the plain.
  20. EBay "is not an auctioneer" by Dogtanian · · Score: 4, Informative

    One thing I can say is good, though, is that eBay doesn't nail bidders for a fee as well. I've had to shell some $$ in the past on other auctions and thought that was pretty scurvy, but it actually is practice at many large auction houses. Sothebys and the like didn't become famous for their charity to buyers and sellers.

    Yeah, but acccording to themselves (IIRC) EBay are not auctioneers:-

    From Ebay.com and also at Ebay.co.uk, they say that:-

    3. eBay is Only a Venue.

    3.1 eBay is not an auctioneer. Although we are commonly referred to as an online auction web site it is important to realise that we are not a traditional auctioneer. Instead, the Site acts as a venue which allows registered users to offer, sell, and buy just about anything which is legal, at any time, from anywhere, in a variety of price formats. We do not review listings provided by users, we never possess the items offered through the Site and we are not involved in transactions between buyers and sellers.


    In short, they do a lot less than Sothebys and friends, so I don't consider this largesse in any way.

    --
    "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
  21. Re:Plaintiff 't understands by confused+philosopher · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "therefore his bid increment would not be enough to secure the item"

    That is not correct if I understand you right, so your comment should not be moderated Insightful.

    The proxy bidding system is what eBay is using to manipulate some buyers, and thus milk higher FVFees from eBay sellers.

    A person CAN win an auction if their high bid is not a full official increment above the lower bidder. This happens in the following situation:
    I bid $5.02 on an auction first. Then you bid $5 in the final seconds, in an attempt to snipe my bid which is showing as the starting price of $0.99. I win the auction with a winning bid of $5.02, even though the next increment should be $5.25.

    My appology if you meant this and I wasn't understanding what you were saying in your post.

    --
    Why slashdot? Why not?
  22. Actually, YOU don't seem to understand... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful
    You bid on an item for, say, $80.

    Somebody comes along, bids $75.

    Your bid is auto-incremented to $76 to beat out this other bidder.

    Your bid would NEVER be auto-incremented to $76. It would be auto-incremented to the next standard level. The "problem" only comes up if you set your max bid to some off-bid number like your hypothetical $76 (assuming the increments for your auction are $5). While eBay's policy will allow you to win the auction at $76 if you maximum bid is $76, if you bid over the next standard bid level, it will bump you back onto a real number.

    As someone put it well in another post, you should be bidding on the increments. Be thankful that eBay lets you occasionally get away with underbidding the next increment, rather than complaining when you do what you are supposed to.

  23. Dont get suckered by ebay tactics. by meanfriend · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I dunno, this sounds much ado about nothing to me. I havent bought anything of ebay in a while, but my rule of thumb was to make one bid; whatever the maximum I was willing to spend and *leave it the hell alone* until the auction was over. If you always bid your max and let ebay's proxy system work the way it's supposed to then you 1) never pay any more that what it takes to outbid the second highest bidder and 2) never get caught up in ridiculous bidding wars.

    Another option is to use a sniping site (I used to use esnipe, which worked great. Havent tried it in a while). It would automatically place your bid for you a few seconds before the end of the auction, so you have no chance to re-raise your bid should it fall short. It encourages you to determine how much that item is worth to you first and bid your max.

    Automatically increasing the leading bid to the next increment does sound shady, but by allowing himself to be influenced by ebay's "OMFG YOU MIGHT BE OUTBID!!!11" email, he's falling right in thier trap. Ebay takes a percentage of the final sale value, so anything they do to increase the sale price just puts more money in thier pocket.

  24. Re:To be fair... (credit card fees)... by neurocutie · · Score: 4, Informative
    To be fair, Paypal was at least once a separate entity, and of course it had to make money to exist. But what drive's Paypal's fees (besides the usual bookkeeping/admin costs), are credit card fees. Remember that every time a vendor accepts a credit card payment, the VENDOR, not the customer, must pay the credit card company a fee, which generally ranges from 2-5% of the transaction. So Paypal is acting as the vendor so that each seller doesn't have to start up his own merchant CC account. You'll find that Paypal's fees aren't that much higher than the credit card fees alone. But that is also why Paypal started to try to encourage buyers to use their bank accounts to fund transactions, to avoid having to pay the CC fees.

    I've been with Paypal since near its beginning and I've always been surprised that its made it since its margins are actually very low. So yeah, Paypal isn't doing that much gouging, at least on this issue... (it has other problems...)

  25. Is it still price gouging... by StarManta.Mini · · Score: 2, Insightful

    .... if the one doing the gouging is making no extra money from it? That aside from the fact that: 1) (and most importantly) You agree to bid up to and including your maximum bid. Legally. As long as eBay doesn't put you up for more than that bid, STFU and go home. 2) The amount in question is generally about 2-3% of the sale price. Whoop-de-fucking doo. 3) It's probably a bug anyway.

  26. Re:A better buyer's market? by timeOday · · Score: 2, Informative
    Is it just me, or do others here feel that Ebay is a better place to sell than to buy?
    Absolutely! In several ways:

    The seller places the item for auction, waits a fixed amount of time, then gets money. At no time does he face any risk.

    The buyer, on the other hand, has to sift through the items (and sellers DO spam keywords), place a bid, then wait around for days. He may likely be outbid, in which case the whole process starts over. If the buyer "wins", he then sends off his money in *hopes* that the seller will deliver. When/if the item arrives, it's often not in the condition described, or very often violates normal assumptions about what is salabled. ("Well gee, I didn't say it came with a power cord!!").

    That's not to say this is all ebay's fault, the point is that ebay is great for selling, not great for buying.

  27. Re:eBay has been steadily by TrappedByMyself · · Score: 3, Funny

    You win!!!

    First Death Post!!!

    As the first Slashdotter to predict the eminent demise of the subject of the thread, you win one free bullet for use when you decide to blow your brains out because you can't deal with everyone else being so stupid.

    As an added bonus, you receive and extra 'just in case I fuck it up' bullet because you, sir, also posted the ever enlightening 'I'm too good for you' post in which you describe how you are better than everyone else and will no longer associate yourself with the subject of the thread. Consider yourself in the good company of those who no longer watch TV, but feel the need to tell everyone.

    Kudos to you sir and thank you for helping to keep Slashdot discussions packed full of meaningless, cynical, cliche posts. You hard work does not go unnoticed.

    --

    Help me take back Slashdot. When did 'News for Nerds' become 'FUD and Conspiracy Theories for Extremist Nutjobs'?
  28. Your bid is a contract by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you enter a proxy bid of $125, then you are entering into a contract with eBay and the seller to pay up to $125 if yours is the winning bid. If you end up winning at $102.50, then you should be happy for getting the item for $22.50 cheaper than you were willing to spend. It doesn't matter if you were initially willing to spend $100.01 before, your new bid of $125 supercedes this, and by your own free will. If you weren't willing to pay $102.50, then why did you place a bid of $125?

    --
    You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
    1. Re:Your bid is a contract by gl4ss · · Score: 2, Insightful

      by that logic it would be fine and dandy if ebay raised all the bids always to the maximum, since that's what you're willing to pay and be happy, right? but the whole point of the autobidding is to reduce that out.

      the point is that it's not expected behauvior - and in the end costs the customers as a hidden cost(that they didn't think of).

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    2. Re:Your bid is a contract by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm sorry, you're oversimplifying. When you specify a new maximum bid of $125, you are agreeing to pay that much if that's what's required to win the auction. In this case, it's not. $100.01 is what's required to win the auction, and that's what you've already bid.

      The reason that this is a dubious lawsuit is that the behavior is already described by eBay's documentation. That doesn't mean it's the right way to do things.

      Why shouldn't eBay force people to bid when they raise their maximum? For the same reason that they shouldn't force people to always pay their "maximum bid" amount. There may be reasons why this lawsuit is BS, but yours isn't one of them.

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
  29. To be properly done ... by tchiwam · · Score: 2, Insightful

    here is something that might stop the last minute frenzy bidding ...

    Each time a new bid is entered the auction will last at least another 5 minutes. That in my opinion will be more auction like, more sport like and also fair.

  30. eBays' system makes sense. by amembleton · · Score: 3, Insightful

    OK, everyone is complaining that this system doesn't make sense but lets break down what is going on.

    Say I am bidding on an item and my maximum bid is £101.
    The auction is currently at $90.
    The auction has increments of £5.

    Someone makes a bid of £100, my maximum bid is greater, but less than the increment so it is used.
    The auction now stands at £101.

    I'm getting worried that I might loose the auction as its right on the max, so I increase my bid to £120.

    Ebay then increases the current bidding to £105.

    This seems to be what the lawsuit is about, ebay raising the current bidding, when you increase your maximum bid just because your original maximum bid fell between increment levels. In this case it fell between £100 and £105.

    If I originally had bid £120, instead of £101 then when the other bidder placed a bid of £100, my bid would not have incremented to £101, but instead to £105 as that is the next incremental level.

    If ebay is found to be at fault then they may have to set it so that you can only bid on the increment levels.

    If ebay just change the system so that the current bidding price increases when you increase your bid then bots will probably be written to take advantage. They will just place a bid 1p above the next incremental level, if it fails then 1p above the next level. Keep going until you reach your maximum bid. In the case of the example auction that I highlited above the bid could save £4.99, so it would seem like a way of saving money.

  31. EBay; conflict of interest in their two roles by Dogtanian · · Score: 2, Insightful

    At the risk of repeating stuff I posted elsewhere in more depth, it's probably worth pointing out one thing:-

    Conflict of interest.

    EBay are acting both as an auctioneer and as a proxy bidder on your behalf. The line between the two roles gets blurred in practice by the EBay system, but their purpose is clearly different; one is working for you, one is out to get your money.

    Increasing your maximum bid should be akin to phoning up the proxy (automatic) bidder during the auction and informing him that *if* you are outbid, he should counter up to your new maximum bid.

    --
    "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
  32. Re:EBay can NOT be likened to traditional auctione by winkydink · · Score: 2, Informative
    Perhaps you should reread my subject line & first sentence. Ebay has explained how the bidding process works very clearly and has done so for some time. They even do a good job using small words so that the average consumer understands.

    When EBay says "someone has outbid you with a bid of $100, do I hear $105?", your automatic bidder won't bid $101; so your analogy is flawed.

    If I read the article correctly, your statement is exactly what the lawsuit is about. The guy was expecting to win with a bid of $101.50 (or somesuch) and ended up paying 102.50 because the system increnments in $2.50 amounts in this dollar range. So, eBay is in effect saying "do I hear $102.50?" It looks at the proxy bid and sees that someone is willing to bid that much, and places the bid on behalf of the bidder, who now complains because he could have won for $101.50, even though eBay (using its well-documented rules) "said", "Do I hear $102.50?"

    There's a big difference between saying eBay is an auctioneer (which I did not do) and likening (which means 'comparing' in my dictionary) them to an auctioneer.

    --

    "I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey

  33. Re:To be fair... (credit card fees)... by mixmasterjake · · Score: 4, Interesting

    When PayPal first started they claimed to make their profit from the interest while your money sits in their accounts. When you send someone money, they take it right away. When you want to cash out, they write a check and it takes a few days or a week. Better yet for them, you maintain a positive balance. All the while they are earning interest on that money. It may not seem like much, but when you have millions and millions of users, many with hundreds of dollars on their balance.

    Somehow PayPal manageges not to be classified as a bank either, which has been a hot topic in the past. They get to skirt much of the federal regulations.

    I don't know if this is still their business model, but if so, i think it's great. Customers get a cool service and they make money as a byproduct of the service. It's a win-win situation when it works.

    --
    TODO: come up with a clever sig
  34. Re:This is the kind of thing... by John+Miles · · Score: 2

    Let me ask you do you think it is right that a person should be able to bid against himself?

    Let's turn the question around. Why do you think a court of law is more qualified to design an online auction system than, say, eBay?

    If you have a problem with eBay's rules and procedures, there is a very simple remedy that doesn't involve the legal system at all: don't use eBay. Unfortunately for the members of the eBay user community who will ultimately have to pay the costs associated with this lawsuit, there are big bucks to be made in the professional-victim business.

    --
    Dahlmann tightly grips the knife, which he may have no idea how to use, and steps out into the plain.
  35. Re:The many fees of ebay by mcc · · Score: 2, Informative

    What right do they have to that?

    Because those are the terms of putting an item up for sale on their website.

  36. Basic Economics by RexRhino · · Score: 3, Interesting

    People think that they are "sticking it to the evil corporations" with all their frivolous lawsuits.

    They sue big "evil" company for millions of dollars.

    Big "evil" company considers this a cost of doing buisness, and passes the cost down in the price of the goods they sell.

    We, the people, then pay for it in higher cost of goods and services.

    Perhaps you don't buy from Ebay, but no part of the economy is exempt from the lawyer tax.

  37. eBay bidding is fundamentally flawed by tuxedobob · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Or it least, it was, the last time I used it years ago. The trouble is it's so easy to abuse.

    You know the exact time the auction will end. You can price snipe at the last minute.

    You can determine the high bidders maximum bid. Most people will bid an even amount, say, $100. Bid $96, see the current at $100, and you know you can bid $105 at the last moment. See above.

    Surprised as I am to find myself saying this, the largest auction house on the internet could stand to learn a thing or two from a game feature. WoW's auction house avoids both these issues. You don't know when an auction will end, only a range, and bids delay the end of the auction by a small amount. And there is no proxy bidding, so you don't know how high someone might be willing to go.

  38. Shitty article summaries unnecessary by Slashdot+is+dead · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The following was written by a real journalist who is paid to write and report about current events for a living. They are in no way affiliated with Slashdot. (Slashdot is a joint venture between computer programmers and morons.)

    SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - EBay Inc. is being sued by a Pennsylvania man who charges that it illegally forces up prices when certain high bidders raise their maximum bid to guard against last-minute offers, an attorney for the plaintiffs said on Wednesday.


    Not only is this summary 1/4 as long as the article summary published by Slashdot, it displays a superior level of understanding by its author. More importantly, it encourages readers to read the entire article, rather than pissing them off with typos or stupid statements like this

    It seems that if your original maximum bid settnig prevents your current bid from falling on an increment then your current bid will be raised to the next increment as soon as you raise your maximum.

    and this
    If the plaintiff wins this class action suit could cost eBay tens or hundreds of millions of dollars.


    This is a case where, if I were a schoolteacher and "symbiot" was my student, I would encourage plagiarism.
  39. Re:A better buyer's market? by compgenius3 · · Score: 2, Informative

    I completely disagree, if you're careful, then you can often get things on eBay for much less than a retail store, the only downfall is the possibility of being outbid, thus the automatic bid system. I bought some RAM on eBay and it cost about half what it would have from anywhere else, and besides the seller taking a while to ship the RIMMs I was very pleased. I then sold a mohterboard and just kept the money in my PayPal account and don't get hit with any extra fees, I assume that when I try to transfer to my bank account these fees will come into effect but if I buy something else, then I can use the money in PayPal to pay for it.

    --
    Sexual intercourse is kicking death in the ass while singing. ~Charles Bukowski
  40. A Lawsuit of Ignorance by daVinci1980 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I mentioned this in another post, but it bears repeating. eBay is--first and foremost--an auction house.

    They behave like other auction houses do, and increase bids in an incremental fashion. This prevents ninja-bidders at the last second from bidding pennies more then someone else and winning the auction. (Imagine that you're bidding on a 4.1M dollar house, and someone comes in with 0.01 seconds to go and bids $4,100,000.01).

    This practice is NOTHING NEW. Where eBay had to modernize the concept was the fact that everyone is a proxy bidder on their site, no one is bidding in person. This means that they follow the other rules that auction houses follow, which is that when two proxy bids are registered for the same amount, the first person whose proxy bid arrives gets the bid, and the other person has already been outbid.

    This is effectively the same thing that would happen were one to visit an actual, honest-to-God auction house. Two people would raise their paddles at the same time. The auctioneer would pick one of them (probably the one whom he sees first), and would accept a bid from them. The other person would either then keep their paddle up for the next bid increment, or they would put it down because that really was the highest dollar amount they were willing to pay.

    Ignorance of how auctions work shouldn't entitle one to any amount of payout in a lawsuit. It should entitle one to a swift "ha ha" and a kick in the pants for wasting the rest of our time.

    --
    I currently have no clever signature witicism to add here.
  41. Re:Plaintiff 't understands by RedBear · · Score: 2, Informative

    A person CAN win an auction if their high bid is not a full official increment above the lower bidder. This happens in the following situation:
    I bid $5.02 on an auction first. Then you bid $5 in the final seconds, in an attempt to snipe my bid which is showing as the starting price of $0.99. I win the auction with a winning bid of $5.02, even though the next increment should be $5.25.


    What eBay says is basically that you are invalidating your original proxy bid if you place a new maximum bid, so it (the proxy system) increases your previous maximum of $5.02 up to the minimum increment above the opposing bidder's $5.00 bid. With your initial proxy bid you had the advantage of placing the bid first, so even if the opposing maximum bid was exactly equal to yours, you would still win. By placing a new maximum bid you invalidated that time advantage and reset the proxy system. Your previous maximum of $5.02 is no longer high enough above the opposing bid to be a valid bid, so your bid is increased to the next increment to make it valid under their system.

    It all has to do with time, and whether the proxy system should be reset by a new maximum bid or continue to consider the old maximum as a valid bid and leave it alone, even if it wouldn't have qualified if it hadn't been your previous maximum. It's described fairly clearly when you read the help files on proxy bidding, so I doubt this will hold up in court. I'm looking at it from all sides and can't really find fault with eBay. You agreed to use their system, they described how the proxy bidding works (including what happens if you place a new maximum bid), so I can't see that there is really anything heinous going on. There is no manipulation, it's all above board for once.

    If you want to save a dollar here and there, stick with your original maximum bid and quit futzing with the proxy system, or snipe it with a precise amount. Either way, don't complain when you lose the auction.

  42. Re:Plaintiff 't understands by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's still a value for used items. It's a great place to save money if you don't mind getting something used, or to make it if you have something you no longer need. For example I got a Hafler P1500 off there for like $150. A quick search on the net shows that $350 is about the minimum you can get one new for. Well I don't need a new one, it's a solid state amplifier, it's highly unlikely to break if properly cared for. So I picked one up used. I was happy, I saved $200, the seller was happy, he got $150 for something he didn't need.

    You are right that new goods generally aren't that good a value. That only generally happens in the event of overstock. Some companies eBay overstock becuase it's cheap and easy. However buying used gear is often the way to go. No, you don't want to do that for low-end consumer gear, that stuff breaks quick. However a deceant idea is to just spend a bit more on some used pro gear.

    For example, if you want a VCR, you are looking at like $20-50 for a cheapie, and probably $100 for a "good" one. Not likely to be all that high quality, and not likely to last. Or, you could cruise to eBay and find a used pro unit. There's a JVC pro editing SVHS VCR going for like $100 right now. Thing is 6-years old, but guess what? They are built to last, it'll still probably work in 15 years if you take care of it and it will look a shitload better than a cheapie consumer deck.

  43. Problem is the people eBay attracts by humankind · · Score: 4, Funny

    Before eBay, there was a contingent of lonely, fat housewives and weirdos that collected tons of goofy, worthless crap that nobody cared or knew about. After eBay, this contingent of social malcontents has found a place on the net where they can let their obsessive pathology run wild. If you don't believe me, look at eBay's forums and see all the ADD/bipolar people complaining their their treasure hunt game is rigged. If you think Slashdotters are antisocial nerds, you have no idea... eBay locals make AOL people look like the M.I.T. graduation class.

    Remember folks, this is the site that gave us the virgin mary grilled cheese sandwich. Of course it's populated by a bunch of loonies who are desperately looking to get their 15 minutes of fame and move out of their trailers. Why is Slashdot giving these people any publicity? Every other day someone is threatening a class action against eBay because they got negative feedback over the 18-century electric can opener they sold being claimed as bogus.

  44. How surprising (not) by billsoxs · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I have had enough problems with ebray that I will not buy from there. Did you know that if you camplain, the seller can block you from buying again. It happened to me. I purchased something (a Sabre saw) from the Sears eBray store that was sent broken. (Physically in two pieces - and it was not caused by the shipper! Also it was the 3rd or 4th thing I had bought from them.) They treated me like dirt and it took a long time for them to agree to take it back - so of course I gave them a negative feedback. A few months later, I tried to buy something else from them and I was blocked. The reply was that they did it because I gave negative feedback. - Thus the feedback ratings are at best a sham. The real funny thing is that I went into my local Sears and bought a better similar item on sale for less.

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  45. Shill bidding? by ixache · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How about this one...

    I place a $50 bid on a item currently at $40, and of course become the highest bidder at $40.50. A few hours later, eBay tells me I've been outbidded, but then a few minutes later sends meanother email to tell me the latest bid has been withdrawn, and I am again the highest bidder... at precisely $50! if that doesn't smell of shill bidding...

    Anyway, I was prepared and willing to pay fifty bucks, but hey! anyone likes a discount!

    Xavier

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  46. This is not evilness. It's implementation. by avarame · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is not "price gouging". This is nothing evil on eBay's part. So what if they get an extra cent from whatever small fraction of auctions in which this occurs? They didn't do this for the money, they did it because it was easier and not significantly better than any other way.

    There's a lot of discussion here about whether or not increasing your maximum ought to constitute a new bid. eBay decided when they implemented the bidding system that it would. It was strictly an implementation question Odds are the people on the business end never comprehended such a distinction could exist.

    Think about the bidding system. Each auction has a list of bids associated with it. If eBay is implemented with a relational database backend, they have a (very very large) table of bids. The table has columns for all the necessary info about a bid (auction it's connected to, user who made the bid, maximum value, time it was bid). When somebody bids, a new row is created in the table of bids. The question is what happens in the abstract case of "raising one's maximum". Let's look at this more practically.

    "Raising one's maximum" is defined as entering a bid in an auction where one is already the maximum bidder. Simply determining if this is the case requires answering a few questions:

    • Who is the winning user, and how large is their bid?
    • Is the user making this bid that user? (I.e., is the current user already the winner).
    • Is the new bid's maximum greater than the previous maximum (the previous winning bid)
    Depending on how eBay is implemented, this may result in another database query. It probably won't, but it's certainly additional CPU time and complexity. The engineers may have decided not to write this special case, to save a little bit of computation. (And when you have as many bids per second as eBay does, it definitely helps.)

    In the absence of the special case as above, a new bid by the winning bidder is treated precisely the same as a new bid by a non-winning bidder -- i.e., it can be no lower than the next increment above the current price.

    IANAL, and I don't know what legally constitutes "price gouging" or whatever the exact charges in the suit are... but this certainly doesn't seem to have any merit.

    • It's fair. It affects everyone equally.
    • It's logical. It's not astonishing. A bit surprising, perhaps, if you end up on the wrong end of it, and it hits everybody's sense of frugality that we just got bilked out of $1.94 for no good reason... but if you give it a few seconds thought, it makes sense.
    • It's documented, as pointed out many times elsewhere in the comments. They aren't trying to hide this behavior.
    • There is only a miniscule benefit to eBay. Come on, how much could they POSSIBLY make off of this? If they were greedy, they could simply increase their commission by a tenth of a percent and make hell of much more. Would that be "price gouging"?

    In conclusion, this was not an evil move on eBay's part. They're not trying to make a buck off anybody (they're already succeeding beyond anybody's wildest, most avaricious dreams at doing exactly that). This behavior is logical, documented, and most likely the product of an implementation decision. Case has no merit... wouldn't it be nice if for once the judge saw it that way too?

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    1. Re:This is not evilness. It's implementation. by avarame · · Score: 2, Insightful

      For "not significantly better than" in first paragraph, read that doing anything special in the case that a high bidder raises their maximum is not significantly better than doing nothing.

      Oh, and I totally forgot. eBay has SELLERS TOO! For the tiny amount this hurts buyers, it HELPS SELLERS, to whom eBay has just as much loyalty and responsibility. Unless anybody wishes to complain that eBay is prejudiced toward sellers (in contradiction to the obvious time and effort put into the rest of the system to make it equitable), there's now officially nothing whatsoever with this maximum bid thing.

      Kindly consider this comment as part of parent when modding ^_^

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    2. Re:This is not evilness. It's implementation. by scharkalvin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It is NOT fair. If I have placed a bid and I am the highest bidder, but I want to rasie my maximum bid that should NOT raise the current high bid on the item. If it did, then I just bid against myself. Now if my current bid is higher than the last previous bid by more than the bid increment raising my maximum bid does NOT change the current high bid. But if my current bid is higher than the last previous bid by an amount less than the increment, raising my maximum bid should NOT raise my current high bid to the next increment notch. Granted the amount is small, but multiply it by the number of auctions where this happens and you have a huge windfall for Ebay. I hope they lose this one.
      This policy may be buried in fine print someplace, but it is counter-intutitive to the way most people expect the auction system to work.