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Introducing 802.11s - Wireless Mesh Networking
ikewillis writes "Intel has introduced a new wireless networking standard called 802.11s. This standard utilizes a mesh topology, allowing for fully self-configuring networks where each node can relay messages on behalf of others, thus increasing the range and available bandwidth with the number of nodes active within the system, versus the point-to-point structure of existing WiFi networks. This will radically transform WiFi hotspots, allowing the geographical area and available bandwidth on the network to scale with the number of participants."
WiMax and other technologies like it will still be much more important because, do we really want a grid of short range networks that will ultimately cause divisions between different parts of the networks if one node goes down or would we prefer enourmously large networks that overlap each other (the different nodes) once or twice or thrice?
./revolution
where do they get all these letters from? There seems to be 802.11b, 802.11a, 802.11g and now 802.11s, and I have no idea why the letters are what they are. Anyone care to explain?
Well, mesh networking does not necessarily need a new 802.11x spec. This article on Tom Bridges blog is republished from the first issue of Make outlines how to create mesh networks using an Airport Express.
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Just when I had upgraded to g, they come out with s. Guess it's time to break out the checkbook and send all my hard earned money to Cisco for a whole new set of access points to match my b, g, and other crap.
The way things are going, cities won't be able to provide this for their citizens. No one needs a network this big for personal usage; if municipal wi-fi is banned, it will be for naught.
I think it sure would be nifty to see this type of AP installed in cars and have uplink points along major highways . . . It'd be a fluid network that would improve with traffic . . . Then again, maybe encouraging heavier traffic is a bad thing . . . it'd still be cool.
What does intel get out of it, besides a new niche (for now - popularity comes later) to sell their hardware into? Last I checked intel wasn't exactly #1 in the AP market, which is where 802.11s will make the biggest splash. I just can't manage to trust intel.
Since it's a [proposed] IEEE standard it will be available to anyone for a nominal fee, yes?
Also, since when did intel invent the idea of a gateway between a mesh network and a non-mesh network? They exist already.
Finally, are there any technical details on intel's proposal anywhere? This article basically tells us nothing except that someone at intel drew up some cute flowcharts to take to the IEEE.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Intel has not introduced the 802.11s standard; Intel has made a proposal to the IEEE, which they will take into consideration while designing the 802.11s standard.
The article makes 802.11s sound like a general mesh standard, which would be really nice. However, what I read on the IEEE Web site recently made it sound like merely a self-configuring version of WDS (so that only access points participate in the mesh). Can anyone provide details on the features of Intel's proposal?
the only way i ever see mesh being implemented is in some sort of wimax network where each tower doesn't need a dedicated connection or on the campus of some school or corporation too bad it wouldn't ever happen in the real world on a large scale
once you get licenses in the picture, you disempower the smaller entities and empower the larger entities. And I think that most Americans are starting to see that whenever larger entities gain power over small entities and citizens, then things start to go sour...
eat shiat and bark at the moon
Yes but will it work with Linux?
-Eric
IIRC, the Nintendo DS acts as a router/node to other DS consoles - okay speed may be different but topology is pretty much the same surely?
Set up enough of these, and you could do your own neighborhood network...
Could this jump-start the "freeweb" movement, particularly since the telcos are lobbying and pushing to kill the muni wireless attempts?
Let's get the entrepreneurs and the networking hippies on the same "frequency."
You can't talk about Wikipedia's flaws on Wikipedia
What happens when a node goes down between several other nodes and the other nodes are now out of range of each other? The network will split and the result will be two seperate networks that are unable to reach each other until the connecting node is up again. Will users be constantly facing problems similar to IRC netsplits? Not to mention that all equipment would need to be replaced to take advantage of this new standard. I'd be more interested in longer range, or more robust signals that can penetrate more obstacles.
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/wireless-network 2.htm
Check out the whole article to find out more about the various 802.11x standards (excluding the new 's' one).
...right....so more people in one area all on the same frequency so they can mesh. So how exactly is the speed going to be anything reasonable or reliable if you're increasing the spectrum noise?
"allowing [...] the network to scale with the number of participants."
So this is kinda like WiFi bittorrent?
I recall the Wifi band is somewhere around 2.4GHz, which also happens to be the band absorbed by water. You know... like in your microwave oven... wave absorption heats the water, hence the "cooking".
Is anyone else even the slightest bit concerned about all the background radiation these technologies create. We have wireless in our homes, FM/AM radio broadcasts floating around, bluetooth devices, WAP's in restaurants, coffee houses, my car dealership, etc. etc. etc. Does anyone have any links to research showing that all of this "noise" is safe to our fragile human bodies? Or is the ability to download porn anywhere, anytime more important to everyone?
This network topology is great idea in theory - but think of the possible latency issues. Wi-Fi has a long way to go before it will be able to handle the bandwidth requirements to handle a mesh-style network.
Think about the conventional wired based internet - it would never work in a similar way to this concept. That is why there are dedicated routers that take care of such tasks.
There are already many research projects ongoing which try to find good routing algorithms and network topologies for IP based mesh networks.
:) and ethernet network. You'd need upgrades for a new routing algorithm and progress in this area will be much slower.
Most of these projects try to build their mesh networks on the IP level, i.e. hardware and, IMHO even more important, medium independent.
This standard seems to work below the IP level, i.e. invisible for normal routing hardware and only usable with those "s" devices.
I wonder if this is really a good idea. Making such a standard prevents altering and improving the routing algorithms (because in the best case, they reside on some FPGA) or using mesh network topologies with, lets say, a mixed WiFi, free space optical (think house to house laser pointers
OTOH, maybe the network will be more stable, but one has to prove that.
Just an FYI, WiMAX runs across both licensed and unlicensed bands.
WiMax S er.... a large meshing sort of wireless network with huge ranges, you could conquor the concept of ISP forever, and do all sorts of things for Africa and the like. Still 11s looks like it would be at least slightly nifty.
-- Checking emails and kicking cheats `till the day I die.
Because, as we all know, P2P networks are EVIL.
Signed,
The MPAA/RIAA.
I think if I were to have to share some of that speed I might be hesitant to participate. yes, it's a selfish thought, but I'm sure I'm not alone.
Any comments?
"Yes, I have a Disaster Recovery Plan. It's called my Resume"
Couldn't this theoretically replace the internet altogether? Once the densities of these "s" hotspots is high enough, wouldn't it be theoretically possible to retrieve a page, send an email, etc. without ever having to transmit the message over the internet "proper"?
The whole idea behind a mesh network is there is no single point of failure.
That does mean you have to design things so there isn't a single point of failure...unless you want a single point of failure, of course.
The spec just addresses the nuts and bolts of devices talking to each other. It doesn't take the place of an intelligent designer.
If Nintendo published their specification, it might be news.
How is this any different than ad-hoc wireless networks. Hardly a novel idea.
After all, this new standard will solve all our problems and stay around so long that it's worth paying $500 extra for something that will cost $0 extra in just 18 months ...
seriously, I'm way more interested in shelling out for a 1 Gigabyte external HD ($89) for a laptop than for this.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
I think that 801.11g is good enough for me.
http://onticfusion.sytes.net/
Serious question here, because I've always heard that it's the water in food which gets "excited" by the microwave energy that cooks food.
Why is it then if I place a porcelain/ stoneware plate in my microwave that it gets extremely hot after a few minutes "cooking"?
Surely there's no residual "water" in my cookware.
I recall the Wifi band is somewhere around 2.4GHz, which also happens to be the band absorbed by water. You know... like in your microwave oven... wave absorption heats the water, hence the "cooking".
... don't you trust the FDA and FCC ...
Radiation is the square of the distance from the emitter. More likely the barrista will get cooked than a customer with less exposure, unless they put the 802.11s devices outside the coffee area, or embed them in the fake wood supports for the coffee place.
You act as if humans were made of 98 percent water
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
In terms of mesh networking Intel seems to be doing a good job. We definitely need more decentralized community networks that offer redundancy and are resilient towards partial outage. This eventually leads to a truly free internet and a great argument for this type of infrastructure is national security. The current "backbone" type of network is suffering from severe bottlenecks and is ways too centralized meaning that if some of the backbone connections go down the entire internet would be affected. The future are definitely free community WiFi networks and its great to see Intel participating in this exciting development.
Come on.. this is just getting us closer to telepathic communications. Granted it is a trial and error procedure, but, eventually they will hit upon the right frequency, power, etc. to make telepathic communication a reality.
Mind | Body | Spirit | Cash
I suspect not, with thousands of participants, routing may become unmanagable. Also, in the best case bandwidth is only going to increase by the number of distinct paths between endpoints (a chain is only as strong as its weakest link). But, I suspect once an optimum path is chosen, all traffic will follow that path, and adding more nodes won't improve your bandwidth at all! Unless you seriously beleive this protocol is going to do load balancing over every possible path between the two endpoints, in which case I would suggest you don't have any background in Computer Science.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
... introducing a new wireless standard every few months, along with a whole new line of APs, cards, etc..
Until then, I'll stick with my 1000/100 wired LAN.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Greatly increase the amount of noise out there. It will be lovely to see it battle with spectrum-hopping 2.4ghz equipment. Ah, what a fucked up mess it will all be.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
As I said in some previous post...
My preeciousss.
It's really similar. By the fact that all the users helps out the network, it just sounds like BitTorrent to me.
I've read the scenarios for the wireless kind of "mesh" which assume that "all devices are created equal", regardless of if they are routers connected to the wall outlet or a (potentially on its last drops of juice) cellphones/PDAs. If such a thing really takes off you will NEVER get "stand-by" power consumption and battery life from your (constantly transmitting other people's data) cellphone.
Paul B.
Water interferes much more significantly with microwave radio transmissions at above 10 ghz.
If each transceiver (i.e. WiFi card) is also a hub that transmits others' packets, what's to stop someone from hacking their card or its drivers then using them to intercept and damage others' packets in a man-in-the-middle style attack?
"Wireless XML mesh adaptive grid networking high speed premium edition XP ultra pro elite extreme" standard.
Just think about the synergies and win-win go to market opportunities that can be obtained by utilizing it.
there's a specific technical definition of mesh networking -- it was developed by the military -- and what's described here doesn't come close to being real mesh networks.
Are slashdot mods really that stupid?
real solution.
Well I'll ask you to consider a few things first...
1. Calculate the energy density from all of these sources.
2. Compare to sunlight energy density at > 1KW/M^2
3. Factor in sunlight containing an ionizing radation componant.
4. Factor in pr0n health benifits. here and here
So yes it is safer to sit at home with the microwaves and pr0n that to go outside.
The performance will always be less than an "every AP has its own landline" topology, but networks will be much easier to build (and perhaps simpler to maintain).
The great thing about highly connected mesh networks is that there is no central point of control (ISP). It is very hard to censor traffic when it can run through any one of thousands of indivdual users' machines.
What is really important about wifi is that it will give a really low cost alternative to basic broadband service. Especially when if municipal wifi is implemented.
Once there broadband competition is there, it will drive down dsl and cable and phone prices.
So, it doesn't have to replace what we already have--all we need from it is to break the chokehold the big telcos and cable companies have on broadband.
eat shiat and bark at the moon
This is the end of the telco. A self-organizing internet of WiFi, once adopted on a massive scale, will obviate the need for the last mile provider. In all the states without protective legislation, municipalities will have one or two huge pipes for the wider municipal network to plug into, say at the Library and Town Hall, and let everyone's 802.11s hardware negotiate with each other the best path to it.
The places that do have protective legislation will find themselves repealing it in the face of enormous public pressure.
The only purpose of the telco will be to provide fiber for institutional and corporate clients concerned with security and guaranteed bandwidth.
Good riddance.
SoupIsGood Food
Yes, exposure to EM radiation is dangerous. So is exposure to sunlight. While you should not needlessly expose yourself to EMR, the power involved is low compared to other sources that we are pretty blase about.
There is a lot of info available on the subject.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
Ghost In The Shell.
Capsule summary--the privately-owned WLAN infrastructure should bypass and where possible replace the wired corporate-owned network infrastructure. There are three main facilitating aspects:
Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
I can't even combine two internet connections on my machine.
Or give them tasks DESPITE having diffrent IP's on my usb wifi device, and 2 nics!
What's up with that?
but I didnt think Intel could just "create" a standard. ANSI, sure, but a company cannot create a true standard if no one but them uses it. Of course its most likely a moot point since they believe if they put it out there, people will automatically buy it, because it has to be better, s is higher than g right? ;)
Informative? If what you suggest was true, wouldn't our skin and ears also suffer ill effects? I don't think telephone companies would take chances with the public's ears. In in the US, cordless phones also use 2.4 Ghz- and can cause inteference with wireless networking, which also has been scientifically proved to causes testicles to explode! You'd better replace any 2.4 Ghz wireless phones right away. Don't wait!
Will my 802.11s router run at 5mbps in a busy apartment, lending the remaining bandwidth to forwarding other packets?
Will a wardriver in the parking lot be able to DDoS the mesh?
Will I have to disable mesh and disallow all outside traffic the first time I install the router, if I just want to use the router myself? Will I be able to do that?
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
Offtopic, I know, but an interesting point is that Ice does not respond to microwaves the way water does- defrosting with a microwave is not very effective, and melting ice cubes takes a surprisingly long time in the microwave. Somewhat back ontopic- I think one would notice one's ears and head getting extremely hot before any other damage occured from wireless devices. http://www.colorado.edu/physics/2000/microwaves/wa ter_rotates5.html
But if you've ever had a roommate who runs p2p apps with uncapped upload bandwidth, you'd know why sharing a 'net connection sucks. It only takes a single computer on a cable modem based lan to make the connection unusable for everyone else.
Apps like edonkey/emule and limewire will gladly use every bit of upstream bandwidth you have, bringing pings to sites like google and yahoo up to 1000+ ms for the rest of the lan. And of course, the majority of people are do not know that they should limit their apps' network usage, much less how to do so.
I don't know about you, but I'm not interested in sharing my internet connection with people who aren't computer literate enough to be 'good neigbors'.
Great, yet another piece of ... hardware that won't work properly in 'put_your_*nix_here' because 'put_your_company_here' won't release the specs. Thanks, but I'll just stick with my existing, functioning hardware for now.
mesh and adaptive network are sexy yes however they don't seem to scale beyone each major cluster well, nor can they sport more than N amount or y amound when y >= 30 pears or N= 100 pears at less than or equil to ~ a half meg each way
the imaginary standard...
Rise up in the cafeteria and STAB them with your plastic forks!
Am I the only one that doesn't see the potential to share files across a local community network, not necessarily internet access? This standard would be amazing for University housing neighbourhoods.
http://www.colorado.edu/physics/2000/microwaves/wa ter_rotates.html
Microwaves simply warm up the water molecules in food. It takes a lot of energy to actually break molecular bonds.
For example, no one has given a MAC protocol that solves the hidden/exposed sender/receiver problems simultaneously. Without such a MAC protocol, it is impossible to resolve the contention fairly. 802.11 DCF solves hidden and exposed sender, but not receiver.
Also, Gupta and Kumar showed that the per-node bandwidth in a wireless mesh with random node placement is O(1/sqrt(n)). This is especially bad news for the sort of nationwide wireless meshes people have been talking about here.
Finally, TCP is especially problematic over multiple wireless hops. It causes self-interference which creates massive packet loss due to contention. TCP is built on the assumption that all packet loss is from congestion, but this assumption is not met by wireless contention losses.
In my own simulations, TCP's overaggression causes routing packet losses, creating spurious route breakage and even more TCP timeouts.
Shockwave Flash movies are the greatest thing to happen to non-sequitur humor since Japan.
(I cannot believe no one said that yet)
because its retarded. dont use big words when you dont know what they mean. ;)
I am currently using Loustworld mesh-ap which is compatible with any 802.11b/g client. so far here are my experiences on a high power setup with reliable signal on a 200mw radio: 5mbit actual bandwidth 3-5ms per hop 800ft nlos links
Just put your tinfoil hat on...
Sounds a lot like a peer to peer network. I think its only a matter of time before the RIAA sues them!
What happens when they actually release 802.11x? Nobody will know what the hell they are talking about.
When are they going to wake up?
L2R did this over 6 years ago, and L2R is still generations ahead of anything this can accomplish.
sigh, is it sad or just pathetic? or both?
I don't know about this, won't a user on the outer with a high throughput kill the links for others along the chain? It might be great for low bandwidth apps like telnet though.
If this is access points only its kind of a "why isn't there already a working group for this?" type of thing.
I kidnapped an engineering grad student and had them write their own protocol. Once this was in place, the student was disposed of. Nobody is gonna sniff me.
Mesh IP-routing is actually quite widespread in experimental free comunity networks theese days. Check out http://www.freenetworks.org/ ;-)
Ofcause I am going to use this oppertunity to promote http://www.olsr.org/
Intel is submitting it to IEEE as a standards proposal
Does anyone else see this as a sort of latter day UUCP minus the UU?
You build up a mesh by having a lot of low power nodes that have their signals attenuated by a lot of near-by obstructions, not by having a lot of high power nodes sitting atop clear-line-of-sight towers.
There are no inherent limits on the capacity of mesh networks. Any supposed limits are imposed more by antenna technology than anything else.
If Intel got into phased array/smart antenna chips their mesh networks could even be high power and long line of sight without creating noise floor problems. Intel might like to have a mass market for such chips and it would certainly benefit the mass market.
Seastead this.
At this rate, 802.11aa should be available before January 2006.
Taxation is slavery.
Insightful?
WTF mods
If a node that effectively connects a group of other PCs goes down, the network would be split. Should someone new connect to the orphaned group, where does that new connection get a DHCP lease? Regarding DHCP, how big would the subnets be? Wouldn't a class C DHCP run out of addresses too soon? Would a class B setup be enough? Considering that any PC would soon be acting as a router/repeater, it is possible that a DHCP server would be serving leases over a really really large area.
no sig = no personality(?)
How does it handle roaming between APs when you have different IP networks configured? Or does it just act as a bridging mechanism between APs that all exist on the same unsegmented network?
I agree that thinks probably work perfectly in Scandinavian countries. But I'm frickig tired of hearing they're better than America.
You people don't realize, that you can't compare how your system works to the American system and it's flaws, compared to the size and amount of people in the US, you're nothing but a lab room.
For instance I guess Finland has only like 5 million people, and you got a lot of money to fool around with social plans and other things.
That's not even the total population of New York City... The US is at war, and things still work a lot better than in some other countries. The beauty of this, is that this place is hughe, and the system (which is not perfect) is quite good. This country compared to underdeveloped countries, has among other things you probably take for granted:
-> JOBS and Good opportunities! And High Paying Good Jobs
-> Safety. You can walk at night, have nice cars, wear jewelry and electronics freely on the street without getting mugged, or kidnapped. In other countries you can't even take a walk in the street once it's dark.
-> Reliable Mail System! You sure don't know what it's to live without one, I'm still amazed by all the things you can do over mail.
-> Excellent Roads, Trains and Public Transportation
-> People can prosper, and you can be as big as you want, I've seen a lot of money before me during this 2 years.
Also there are things I can complain about, I don't expect everything to be perfect, I can complain about Insurances, Medical Billings, Medicines, the War in Iraq, and George Bush.
This country is probably the dream of many people in the past, a place where people from many different countries could live under the same rules, together and in peace. I'm from Venezuela, and we were liberated from the Spanish Empire in the 1800's. Bolivar's dream was to have all South America as one big power. His dream is slowly becoming a reality but in the US. In here I feel closer to the rest of latin america than in my own country. I've met people from all over latin america and the world here. They come here for better opportunities. Yes, a lot of them ilegally and they probably end up being slaved, but for those who do things legally, they have a great future ahead of them here, and when you speak the same language (Spanish that is), it's like if we were from the same place, Bolivar's dream come true, we're like brothers in this place.
I appreciate the things Americans and Europeans take for granted, this country with all it's flaws is a paradise. Probably things work a lot better in Finland, Sweden, etc. but wouldn't things be perfect in New York If it had the budget of a whole country? of course.
I'm also tired of hearing Europeans tagging Americans as narrow minded people, religious, etc. I also came here with that idea, but now I know better. In 2 years I've been living here, I've learned that Americans are not stupid at all, these people like to travel, educate themselves, have good taste, party, etc. They're people like everywhere else. I hope, and I'm sure that not all Europeans are so narrow minded in the way they think of americans, although all the Europeans I've met in this country during the last 2 years (yes in this country, they come to study and work here), do nothing but complain about this place and how stupid people is, and how Europe is better... why aren't you there then?