South Korean Gov't. Advocates Linux

Anonymous Coward writes "Korea has now taken the plunge on the Linux operating system, and is now starting to advocate Linux for use in government and public sector applications. South Korea's Ministry of Information and Communications announced the move today, which will result in decreased Microsoft market share in the region." According to the article, Korea's Ministry of Information and Communication "will provide a total of 3 billion won (US$2.95 million) for government agencies which want to use the Linux and other open-source computer programs this year."

Comments

US in trouble ?

[mirko]

Last month, they converted some of their assets in dollars, now they are getting away from USA's most fortunate software company ?
Is there some policy here ?

Re:US in trouble ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, both the US$ and MS are becoming less competitive.

Re:US in trouble ?

[mirko]

Oops, I meant not in but from Dollars to Euros.
And no, it was not meant to be a flamebait but just a question.

Re:US in trouble ?

[gt_swagger]

If anybody is in trouble it is Microsoft. Aside from a FUD campaign, they have done nothing but encourage Linux growth with their strong apathy towards the end user they so often crap upon and insistance of keeping a brutal EULA and locking their users into a product cycle.

Microsoft is failing to compete, and thus their market shares are declining. It's simple buisness here. What... do you want them to get a federal subsidy? Those poor innocent submarine patent people...

Re:US in trouble ?

[dabigpaybackski]

Last month, they converted some of their assets in dollars, now they are getting away from USA's most fortunate software company ? Is there some policy here ?

Yes, I believe it was once known as "enlightened self-interest."

Re:US in trouble ?

[Anonymous Coward]

the dollars almost at $2 to £1, I expect a few more countries will sell up and the dollar will drop even further.

Don't forget China is the second largest holder of dollars, piss them off and bye-bye economy.

Re:US in trouble ?

[NineNine]

Oh really? You got any proof that the largest software company in the known universe is in trouble, Mr. Buffett?

Re:US in trouble ?

[mirko]

Excuse me, Herr 99, but I thought it was IBM whose assets are much more important than Microsoft.
Of course, they're more R&D than Microsoft (who also produce hardware - consoles, mice) but I guess very few companies that size would only rely on software.

Re:US in trouble ?

[RoLi]

The USA cannot maintain an enormous trade deficit forever, so the devaluation of the dollar is just a matter of time.

Re:US in trouble ?

[tomhudson]

Yeah, but don't forget, in a Microweenie's Windows World, IBM stands for "I Buy Microsoft", a.k.a. "I'm Buggered by Microsoft"

Body count:
IBM: 329,001
MSFT: 57,000

... or annual revenues ...

IBM: $96,290,000,000.00
MSFT:$37,470,000,000,00

Re:US in trouble ?

[joschm0]

Oh really? You got any proof that the largest software company in the known universe is in trouble, Mr. Buffett?

I hate it when I hear Microsoft called the world's largest software company. I would guess that there's many fortune 500 companies such as IBM and the unnamed defense contractor that I work for have enough software developers to totally dwarf Microsoft and Oracle put together. The difference, of course, is that we have little or no commercial products.

Re:US in trouble ?

[FuzzyBad-Mofo]

Obviously, in S. Korea, only old people use MS..

Re:US in trouble ?

[jadavis]

Actually it can. The trade deficit is not a very large part of GDP. I'm not saying it should, but it can, so long as the GDP stays high.

Re:US in trouble ?

[4of12]

The trade deficit is not a very large part of GDP.

Despite the impressive size of US GDP, around US$10 trillion annually, the trade deficit is still a much larger percentage of GDP than any other nation's trade deficit. About 6% last year. About US$5 per day per U.S. resident.

If I were to take out loans constituting 6% of my annual income each year, it wouldn't take too many years before I'd declare bankruptcy. [Or not anymore, since Congress recent timely action to make personal bankruptcy laws much more stringent (unless you're wealthy and can afford a lawyer to help you through the loopholes:)].

I used to admire the Republican party for its advocacy of sound, prudent fiscal policy. There's scant of that anymore. The USA is in a powerdive and we're set to auger in as a result of current policies.

Re:US in trouble ?

[SgtChaireBourne]

Perhaps the devaluation or collapse of the dollar is a real possibility. Someone or some group has been buying up US debt via the Bahamas and then selling it. Perhaps that is to gain influence or just to prop up the dollar a few months longer. However, if I have expertise in any area, that's not it.

If the dollar does tank, that ought to be a boon for Novell and RedHat, since that ought to make their services cheap for markets outside the U.S.

Re:US in trouble ?

[jadavis]

Sound fiscal policy is impossible without massive overhaul of mandatory spending. In 2004, just Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid added up to 42% of total federal spending. SS alone is more than the entire DoD (and that's in 2004 ... a war year).

Bush cut taxes, but he failed to reduce spending. It's just out of control. Let's hope, for the country's sake, that he does a better job this time 'round.

The only real hope we have is that states stand up and say "no" to federal spending. I don't think citizens alone can do it any more through merely electing reps. The states need to take a stand and say "reduce spending, or we won't collect taxes for you in our state".

Re:US in trouble ?

[jadavis]

I agree that the US shouldn't run trade deficits. I also agree that the Euro is a strong currency.

However, the US needs to address other major budget problems: primarily that the feds are spending way too much money. Without doing that, the US will economically fail. If they do address those problems, the US will continue to succeed exonomically. The trade deficit can help, but that issue will not solve the budget problems by itself.

Re:US in trouble ?

[LaCosaNostradamus]

"exonomically" -- I like that word.

I think it stands to reason that if you're Mr Productivity, then your credit is good in several senses of the term. I agree that the US can sustain significant trade deficits if the federal budget is sound, and the states are as well.

Re:US in trouble ?

[4of12]

I agree that entitlement spending has to be reset on a sustainable path.

Social Security actually contributes more money the federal budget than it takes away! About US$160 billion annually now, ramping down to zero in 2018. Unfortunately, our esteemed Congresspersons on both sides of the aisle keep using the Social Security surplus to pay for general fund expenditures. Otherwise the deficit wouldn't be $400 billion a year - it would be glaringly obvious that it's $600 billion a year and that the folks managing the budget are passing the bill onto the future.

The state's actually could do with more federal spending, as spending cuts in medicare, medicaid, etc. have shifted the financial burden over to the states that do not raise nearly the tax revenue the Fed's do.

We'll all end up paying the bill as prices increase, interest rates increase, and growth stagnates and real wages decline (as they must if we're in a global labor market). Traditional 1970's style stagflation; which is preferable to 1930's style recession.

Re:US in trouble ?

[HiThere]

We can hope for moderate stagflation, but I'm not real optomistic. I expect that what's really going to happen is a wild bout of inflation, which we can hope will not surge over into hyperinflation. And everyone who saved for the future will find their assets either too highly taxed to hold onto, or worthless.

But with an oligopoly running the news, everyone will think the troubles are local, and be deceived about the causes (blaming it on whichever scapegoat is popular at the moment).

If you can flee, flee now. If you wait for the crash, you'll have waited too long. The younger you are when you leave, the more countries will accept you. And the sooner you leave, the more your dollars will be worth in the new location, and the less of a burden an employment history of having worked in the US will be. (Who's hiring people with SCO on their employment history? Lot's aren't, even though most employees weren't to blame.)

It's all well and good to talk about recovering the country, and that would be quite desireable, but we are kept far from the levers of power, and votes are counted by machines whose software we can't verify. That's bad enough, but the major news media are so manipulated that even an honest vote would be acting on manipulated and controlled information.

The only question is which country. If you can, I would recommend learning (or knowing) a Scandinavian language. They currently seem like a relatively safe haven -- but to immigrate you appearantly need to know the language. New Zeeland is another possibility, but immigration is controlled. (Proper, it's an island, and can't support too many people.) If you know Japanese, you might be able to get into Japan as an English teacher...but I doubt you'd be allowed to stay permanently. (I haven't checked that one. I don't speak Japanese.)

Re:US in trouble ?

[HiThere]

If you have a balanced budget, then when the government pays for a public service it just means that the citizenry doesn't need to.

If you don't have a balanced budget, then you are either investing in the future, or living beyond your means. (And we know which is being done.)

Arguing about just how much the government should spend on public services, while valid, is relatively trivial. RELATIVELY!. I agree that it's important, but it won't lead to hyper-inflation and radical devaluation of the currency. The dollar seems to be headed the same way the pre-WWII german mark headed. Expect that in ten years a dollar will be worth less than 1/20 of what it is worth today. And we can hope that it isn't closer to 0.0001. The german mark went through periods of an inflation of 100%/day! We aren't in quite the tough spot they were in, and we COULD take steps to avoid the problem. I just don't see any sign that we are doing so.

So now the North will use Microsoft? :-)

[BerntB]

I guess this means North Korea will have to use Microsoft?

A marriage born in... well, never mind. :-)

Re:So now the North will use Microsoft? :-)

[X_Caffeine]

given Kim Il Sung's connection with reality, Pink seems more likely

Re:So now the North will use Microsoft? :-)

[taj]

"I guess this means North Korea will have to use Microsoft?"

http://www.paulnoll.com/Korea/History/Korean-night .html

You can already see the difference between Microsoft in North Korea and Linux Sourth Korea.

Re:So now the North will use Microsoft? :-)

[Donny Smith]

> I guess this means North Korea will have to use Microsoft?

Hey - when someone terrorizes the U.S., it's only fair to respond in kind!

Re:So now the North will use Microsoft? :-)

[Alsee]

I find this image far more impressive, though it does have the "problem" that people actually need to be able to locate North and South Korea on a globe.

-

Re:So now the North will use Microsoft? :-)

[joschm0]

I find this image far more impressive, though it does have the "problem" that people actually need to be able to locate North and South Korea on a globe.

Nice picture but how did they photograph the entire world in darkness all at once?

Re:So now the North will use Microsoft? :-)

[hey!]

They didn't. It's a mosaic, obviously.

That' said, it's important to note that all that light going up into space is wasted. Proper fixtures would be more efficient, improve nighttime vision by reducing side glare, and allow people to see what every generation before the ones currently alive have seen: the night sky. There are many adults who have never seen the milky way.

Re:So now the North will use Microsoft? :-)

[X0563511]

Of course, a lot of that also happens to be light reflecting off of the ground. In both cases.

Figure out a way to light the roads without reflecting light off of them, and you have solved the issue.

And, to the parent, (not you, hey!), if you can't find korea on a globe map, you are in trouble. Find the bottom end of Japan, and look to it's immediate west.

Re:So now the North will use Microsoft? :-)

[hey!]

True, light will inevitably reflect up. But next time you do a night landing by airplane, look at the difference between areas lighted with full cutoff fixtures and those will poorly designed ones. There is a huge difference.

Re:So now the North will use Microsoft? :-)

[X0563511]

You have a point. They tend to have a glare, and don't really light up the area around them.

I can see where you are coming from as well, I've seen the night sky from the air above the clouds. It's amazing. I could even see a couple satilites (slow moving, steady heading bright dots - cross the sky in say 2-3 minutes).

Re:So now the North will use Microsoft? :-)

[rapidweather]

Nobody as ever seen a computer in North Korea, if anyone has, let them present themselves here, and tell us all what OS it has on it.

I did not know that Microsoft makes popcorn poppers.

I heard that all they have to eat there is a handful of corn each day.

With no computers, what use would they have for any Microsoft products other than Microsoft Cookware.

Re:So now the North will use Microsoft? :-)

[tct25]

Yes, Pyongyang already is.

Re:So now the North will use Microsoft? :-)

[Alsee]

if you can't find korea on a globe map, you are in trouble. Find the bottom end of Japan, and look to it's immediate west.

You really should know better than to give a worthless explanation like that. The last time I had to explain how to find North/South Korea on that map I *also* had to explain Japan.

Did you really expect otherwise? Chuckle.

-

Re:So now the North will use Microsoft? :-)

[belmolis]

Given North Korea's poor economy and technological backwardness, they're probably using FreeVMS. And to please the Great Leader, they probably tell him it's pirated. :)

Way cool

[Dorsai65]

Now to get a few more governments to see the light!

Take note "Monkey Boy!"

[bogaboga]

Oh, I hope my man Ballmer is awake. He should grab his bags and prepare to leave for Korea. We surely live in interesting times don't we?

Re:Take note "Monkey Boy!"

[FidelCatsro]

I now have this image of the Ballmer stomping around shouting
"KOREANS ,KOREANS ,KOREANS ,KOREANS ,KOREANS ,..KOREANS ,KOREANS ,KOREANS ,KOREANS ,KOREANS ,KOREANS ,..."
It is not the most plesant mental image I've ever had .

Re:Take note "Monkey Boy!"

[gt_swagger]

Oh, I hope my man Ballmer is awake. He should grab his bags and prepare to leave for Korea. We surely live in interesting times don't we?

I hear he's busy trying to stop excessive gland secretion -- 10 feet is a long way to skip. Anyway, from what I hear, Phil the Prince of Insufficient Light has been sent to South Korea to send all the evil Linux users straight to heck. He will hit the really naughty ones with his spoon.

Re:Take note "Monkey Boy!"

[bondjamesbond]

Hmmm.... I for one would be very interested to see if Bill Gates could persuade Gee Dubya to to cause a missile test to "go horribly awry" and land in Seoul. He's in everyone else's pocket, why not Bills? Can we start a pool for this?

They're making a big mistake.

[gt_swagger]

Didn't they read that report by those two professors that got Microsoft funding about how Linux is plagued by security holes, higher ownership cost, and a swarm of locusts? I hope they can right the ship before it's too late.

$2.95 million is a small step

[Anonymous Coward]

That 2.95 million dollar figure from the article seems very tiny. Wouldn't be surprised if they still pay orders of magnitude more for proprietary stuff.

Re:$2.95 million is a small step

[H8X55]

2.95 million buys a lot more Linux support than 2.95 million in Microsoft. The portion of money that would have paid for licensing can paid to developers, technicians, trainers. They can use this money instead of just earmarking it for Redmond.

In reality 3 mil is a small amount to 'test' Linux in the 'real world' and see how it goes. My guess, in years to come, judging the strong technology climate in SKorea there will be even more funding to switch from MS to Linux in even more government agencies.

Re:$2.95 million is a small step

[smchris]

I'm thinking maybe it's an investment at Microsoft contract renewal time?

It feels to me like South Korea has been "moving to linux" for a few years now and I'm starting to get cynical.

Re:$2.95 million is a small step

[Dr_Barnowl]

$2.95M goes a lot further in South Korea. Instead of sending all that money abroad, they'll be funding their own people to install, configure and develop FOSS for Korean needs. I'm willing to bet that even handsome wages in Korea are a lot cheaper than their western equivalents.

Re:$2.95 million is a small step

[RoLi]

What more do you want?

Of course it will be impossible to completely rot out Windows in all South Korea, but Microsoft has very good reason to be worried.

Re:$2.95 million is a small step

[UnderScan]

They can use this money instead of just earmarking it for Redmond.

Exactly. They can use that money and pour it back into their locally created Asianux. See Miracle Linux, Red Flag and Haansoft jointly introduce Asianux 2.0:
MIRACLE Technology Conference 2005, TOKYO, 2-MAR-2005 - - MIRACLE LINUX Corporation ( Tokyo Japan, President: Takeshi Sato. Hereafter referred to as MIRACLE LINUX), Red Flag Software Co., Ltd. ( Beijing China, Executive President: Chris Zhao. Hereafter referred to as Red Flag) and Haansoft, Inc. ( Seoul South Korea, CEO: Jong Jin Baek. Hereafter referred to as Haansoft) jointly announced today Asianux 2.0 to be generally available at the end of July 2005.

The best way to get discounts from Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

It's probably just a price negotiation tactic.

Seems the best way to get a price break from Microsoft is to announce that you're advocating Linux.

I'm shocked at countries that *Don't* use this strategy.

Re:The best way to get discounts from Microsoft

[Dan Ost]

Even if that is the case, Linux still gains from such an arrangement.
In order to leverage Linux against MS, some amount of money and time must
be spent to compare the two so that they can put numbers in front of the
MS sales rep.

So, even if it's just a ploy, Linux still gets excellent PR from this.

Tactical move

[Anonymous Coward]

Next we hear about this is that they have signed a 5-year contract with Microsoft to update all the state administration machines to latest Windows, after long and hard negotiations with M$. The price will not be disclosed.

Re:Tactical move

[mumblestheclown]

Mod up, insightful. Certainly more insightful than the gratuitous MS bashing that seems to be the norm for the other "insightful" threads here.

Re:Tactical move

[gt_swagger]

Microsoft is like one of these.

Once you know what it's all about... whenever it's close, you can't resist the temptation to hit the crap out of it. It's theraputic.

Re:Damn communists!

[KiloByte]

Nah, communism=political monopoly (the "dictatorship of the proletariat"). On the other hand, free software is closely related to free speech, and free speech typically goes together with democracy.

What they call "people's democracy" is as far from "democracy" as possible. A popular Polish joke says: the difference between democracy and people's democracy is same as those between a chair and an electric chair.

It doesn't matter whether you're curbing free speech and free market because of extreme left-wing (communist) reasons or of extreme right-wing (religious) ones. The net effect is the same.

so..

[Turn-X Alphonse]

Is this because Asia wants to try Linux and thinks it's the best, or is it because of the anti American (And Microsoft is very American) feelings?

Re:so..

[gt_swagger]

If South Korea is so anti-american, why is Kia actively expanding its US-based holding, and still selling at a WELL below standard price when they have the leeway to bump it up more and still outdo the competition?

If I was in Asia, I'd use Linux for the virus storms alone. How many major bot net attacks and virus storms have come from Asia over the last half decade? I know some network guys that, when under heavy virus attack, block the entire friggin' continent of Asia** at the router... and it tends to help early on before security-hole ridden Windows machines this side of the pond become part of the problem post-infection.

**Is there anybody else who can't say Asia without seeing John Travolta as played by Darrell Hammond on SNL trying to answer the audio daily double? Name this continent.... Aaaaasiaaaaaa.

Re:so..

[houghi]

Is this because Asia wants to try Linux and thinks it's the best, or is it because of the anti American (And Microsoft is very American) feelings?

No. This can be the resukts of any of three reasons:
1) They calculated and saw that in the long run Linux is cheaper. Governements look normaly at longer periods.
2) They want to promote IT development in their own country. This will be good for finances. Instead of sending money out of the country, it stays inside.
3) They do not want to be dependent on only one company to deliver to them.

If there is any thought about Nationalities, it will be more pro-themselves then anti-anybody.

It is just that M$ is the only one having a monopoly (did I really write that?) and they are American. If they were Canadian, English, German or Navaran, they would do the same. It is left to the reader to think if there would have been a monopoly in those cases and if not, why.

Re:so..

[Threni]

> If I was in Asia, I'd use Linux for the virus storms alone.

If you were in Asia, you'd be doing largely the same as you would be doing in the US, UK, Brazil, the Conga etc. Or does being in Asia somehow make Battlefield Vietnam and HalfLife2 work under Linux?

Re:so..

[gt_swagger]

Cedega. WineX. I have YET to purchase a game I can't run in Linux. Are you Steve Ballmer gamer edition?

Re:so..

[muyuubyou]

In Asia... Battlefield Vietnam looks a lot more real.

Re:so..

[16K Ram Pack]

I think the "promote IT development" is a biggy. Even if Linux costs about the same as Microsoft, it probably means you are employing more people doing installation/tuning in your country.

Re:so..

[Darby]

Cedega. WineX. I have YET to purchase a game I can't run in Linux.

I can't even get the Red Alert installer to run.
Also, Heroes of Might and Magic 4 won't run.

Morrowind and Civ3 work great though.

Re:so..

[siplus]

Wow.....
i'm not the only one that plays/likes heros 4!
I have not been able to get many games to run well under cedega. with that in mind, World of Warcraft runs well in FC3 with cedega

Other than that; if it doesn't have a native linux port, i have to boot windows

Re:so..

[Darby]

i'm not the only one that plays/likes heros 4!

I actually got into the series when I got Heroes 3 from Loki.

It's really cool to see the disk case with the penguin on it.

Oh well, hopefully someone else will try it again and the market for Linux games will be better than it was.

Re:so..

[siplus]

"I actually got into the series when I got Heroes 3 from Loki.

It's really cool to see the disk case with the penguin on it."

So heroes 3 (and 4?) have linux clients??

I have both games, but i haven't noticed any linux compatibility. is there a client available?

Re:so..

[Threni]

No, but I like my games to run quickly. How fast does Battlefield Vietnam run through all that crud?

Re:so..

[Darby]

Loki did a port of 3 to Linux, which runs natively. Since they went out of business, I'm not sure where you can get it.

4 only has a windows version, but I can't get it working with Cedega/WineX

Better Yet:

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia, only Koreans use old Linux applications.

Hear that?

[AnyoneEB]

That cry of anguish is all the South Koreans trying to get WINE to work so they can play StarCraft. (I have done it, it just took a lot of messing with settings.)

Re:Hear that?

[nounderscores]

In Korea, only old people cry... when their starcraft playing kids forget to feed them.

Don't you worry. The finest WINE-STARCRAFT-HOWTO ever will be written very soon.

If you can translate yours to Korean and stick advertistments all over it, you could be a millionaire.

Re:Hear that?

[zerojoker]

Someone already wrote an Howto:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~hoppq/sc-howto.html

Re:Hear that?

[AnyoneEB]

I believe I have seen that howto before. I had some problem with the palette being wrong (Starcraft uses a custom palette since it is 256 colors) and another with the mouse not moving. It would either look right and have to be killed remotely or the graphics would be too messed up for it to be usable. This was a while ago so I do not remember what settings I changed, and my problem may not occur with the most recent version of WINE.

I wouldn't say Advocates, but the DPRK seems to

[millisa]

Just browsed around their site a little bit and I see lotsa positive open source-ish things.

The Korean Friendship Association USA branch on the DPRK official site uses CMSimple . .which is open source and sits on Apache (though it *could* be run on Win32 or Linux).

This Trip thing they are talking about here has a bit at the bottom of the page that "This webpage and its images is released to the internet community under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License" (with link). Not a Linux endorsement, but definitely in the right ball park.

I doubt they'd ever come out and advocate something that isn't homegrown . . . you don't hear much about DPRK linux users, but somehow I bet they are out there since there's lotsa open source type stuff sitting on their primary web presense.

Or I could be wrong . . . but I'd bet there are some communist linux boxes out there . . .

Re:I wouldn't say Advocates, but the DPRK seems to

[Anonymous Coward]

...communist linux boxes...
Yes, they're called Comix!

Re:I wouldn't say Advocates, but the DPRK seems to

[orkysoft]

Actually, I think it's bad that that DPRK site uses the GNU FDL, since it'll only provide ammo for Bill Gates' Open Source == Communism propaganda, and face it, after decades of anti-communism propaganda in the USA, communism is still a very dirty word there.

"We" (as in: Open Source advocates) *don't* want to be identified with such a crazy country as North Korea. Really.

this move effect neighbours?

[kokoko1]

S.Korea moving towards open source is a good step in right direction @ right time. Asia is known for piracy no one care about the legitimate software usage perhaps most of asian don't even know that piracy is a crime :) Open source is definitely the most affordable (secure) plateform avaible. I hope other asian governments (IT Minister if they are not corrupts ;)) move towards open source , move towards legitimate world.

Re:this move effect neighbours?

[coolcold]

just wanted to point out that it is a crime in the us doesn't mean it also is a crime elsewhere. Don't just think everything in the law is right either since some of them are pushed by parties and are not necessary

Re:this move effect neighbours?

[orkysoft]

It is if they want to be a part of the WTO.

Americans seeing Anti-Americanism everywhere...

[aendeuryu]

Is this because Asia wants to try Linux and thinks it's the best, or is it because of the anti American (And Microsoft is very American) feelings?

Erm... no. The South Korean government is pretty friendly towards the US compared to other countries, both in Asia and internationally. The population gets a little annoyed with the excesses of some of the soldiers here and the United States government's abrasive approach to North Korea, but that in no way is going to translate to the South Korean government, in a country historically devastated by war that's now more than happy to take slow, gradual steps when it comes to international diplomatic situations. As such, suggesting that Korea is dropping Microsoft as some symbolic slap in the face is a really silly way to look at it. Even if the average young- to middle-aged Korean would like to tell the U.S. where to get off, the government isn't going to. Besides, the average Korean also LOVES their Windows-based games. Linux has very little fame over here.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say it has more to do with the fact that a long-term relationship with Microsoft involving Windows XP might seem too expensive for the government. Windows 98 is still the popular OS of choice over here, so if they're worried that dropped W98 support means migrating to either an updated Windows or another OS, it might be worth throwing a few million at Linux to see if it can be adopted on a broad scale.

As an aside, related to the parent's false dichotomy, why do so many Americans see anti-Americanism everywhere?

Re:Americans seeing Anti-Americanism everywhere...

[DarkSarin]

It's interesting that this should come up.

I am currently in a cross-cultural psychology course (of sorts), and we had a guest speaker speaking about France and why some folks think that the French hate Americans.

His take was simple--Americans and French are the only two cultures that think their culture is the best and want to impose it (in some fashion) on everyone else. Naturally then, like any time you have two folks who think they are the best, bar none, us Americans have butted heads with the French.

I'm not saying that I agree, but I suspect that he has some of that right. (As an aside, he is an American that has spent a number of years in France--and got his PhD in French Medieval Literature from a French University (not the Sorbonne, although he did spend time there, and occasionally lectures there) that I can't remember the name of (and couldn't pronounce when he told us, let alone spell!).

Now, since we have strayed so far off topic, let me just say that I hope that every country wakes up and sees that the smartest way to run things is on software that they have the source for and can modify themselves. A small business can get away with relying on someonw else to write their software (especially the OS), but a gov't has the resources and the time do it right themselves, and they should. Why? Because of security concerns. I wouldn't trust confidential data of the sort that most gov'ts keep to a host of proprietary OS boxen. (Never mind that they shouldn't be keeping some of the data--that is a different debate).

Re:Americans seeing Anti-Americanism everywhere...

[should_be_linear]

United States government's abrasive approach to North Korea
Sorry for Off Topic, but as opose to what most people here thinks, I am sure that *too weak* politics towards NK will lead to nuke-disaster in either South Korea, Japan or even USA west-coast. As opose to Saddam, Kim Chong Il is *real* asshole (tm) that is able to push red button anytime he don't get his pills. Sooner we act, less catastrophy. May I remind you that Tepodong-3 nuclear missiles will probably be able to reach USA, while ver.2 is tested to reach all of Japan. Unfortunatelly for South Korea and Japan, Bush is focused on "war on terror", attacing random countries, while *real* asshole (tm) is silently getting his agenda done. As he learned from Milosevic, when it gets politically too hot it is enough to say "OK, we are back to talks again!" and you have another 2 years to do whatever you like. Europe is also no help here, becouse it is divided to 25 different opinions.

Re:Americans seeing Anti-Americanism everywhere...

[Maxo-Texas]

His take was simple--Americans and French are the only two cultures that think their culture is the best and want to impose it (in some fashion) on everyone else.

I know the chinese have a firm belief their culture is the best. I'm not sure if they wish to impose it on others or not tho. But they have a pretty strong racial superiority complex based in part on the length of time they have been civilized.

Re:Americans seeing Anti-Americanism everywhere...

[NatteringNabob]

It is a shame that somebody spent the time and effort to get a PhD only to spout folk lore. I am an American and I have been to France many times and I have never had any difficulty at all. People have been almost uniformly polite and helpful including waiters. I also have several French friends, none of whom hate Americans. What they dislike is American foriegn policy which they basically see as 'kill everybody that stands in the way of profit' and which they recognize because it is very similar to the French Imperial tradition. The difference is that, for the most part, modern France sees that imperial tradition as largely immoral and anachronistic.

Re:Americans seeing Anti-Americanism everywhere...

[theLOUDroom]

His take was simple--Americans and French are the only two cultures that think their culture is the best and want to impose it (in some fashion) on everyone else.

I take it he'd never heard of Germans?

There was even a couple little wars about that issue.

And then of course there's the middle east... where people are actively killing themselves and each other for this very purposes..... and some of them aren't even americans!

I suppose it's not your hypothesis, but I just feel the need to say that it's overly simplistic and obviously flawed.

What's funny is that much of the world actually LOVES american culture, they just hate americans.

Re:Americans seeing Anti-Americanism everywhere...

[DarkSarin]

First off, I didn't say that I necessarily agreed--just that that was his take on the matter. Of course his whole opinion was much more complicated than that.

Note that the French (according to him), just feel that they have the best culture in the world and that everyone should follow along just because it is so great. He in no way intimidated that they were militant about it.

Re:Americans seeing Anti-Americanism everywhere...

[DarkSarin]

First off, he didn't say that the French hated Americans or that they were impolite. Just that BOTH cultures (in some fashion) feel that they are superior to other cultures, and therefore they tend to clash on occasion.

As far as he is concerned, I am afraid that you don't understand--he is VERY pro-French (whatever that is), and loves the people and culture. He spent about 15 years there as a businessman and married a French woman. He was also VERY careful to say that the French do NOT hate Americans.

As a side note, can we get any Frenchmen/women to pipe in on this? We are so far off topic that it's crazy.

Re:Americans seeing Anti-Americanism everywhere...

[bhiestand]

That's funny, I think you answered this one yourself:

Even if the average young- to middle-aged Korean would like to tell the U.S. where to get off, the government isn't going to. Besides, the average Korean also LOVES their Windows-based games.

Re:Americans seeing Anti-Americanism everywhere...

[HiThere]

As an aside, related to the parent's false dichotomy, why do so many Americans see anti-Americanism everywhere?

Because we feel our government's actions deserve it? Prehaps.

Perhaps because we don't properly understand the cost that other people pay, so we figure that if we were treated that way, we'd be upset. It's been over a century and a half since we had a major war on home ground, and we've forgotten how terrible it can be. (You raised an excellent point!)

(maybe) Sort of old news

[ihavnoid]

Actually, KIPA (Korea IT Industry Promotion Agency), an organization funded by the Korean government, switched all its desktops to Linux, and that news was around about 8 months ago. I remember, that the purpose KIPA switched all its desktop to Linux (around 100+ desktops), was to test the possibility of Linux desktop in Korean goverment agencies. The biggest problem of using Linux in government agencies, was the vast amount of in-house tools plus special applications that didn't exist for Linux, and staff training issues. I remeber a KIPA staff screaming for help on a LUG webboard, due to l10n issues. They seemed to have some problem because of inadequate Korean support in Linux.

Something that may be ironic, is that KIPA's current president, Hyun Jin Ko, is the former president of Microsoft Korea. :)

Re:(maybe) Sort of old news

[sheimers]

> Something that may be ironic, is that KIPA's
> current president, Hyun Jin Ko, is the former
> president of Microsoft Korea. :)"

Former? Was he fired? This might be his revenge? ;-)

Re:(maybe) Sort of old news

[ihavnoid]

> Former? Was he fired? This might be his revenge? ;-)

No. He wasn't fired. He simply resigned, and joined KIPA. Since Microsoft Korea was in good shape while he was the president, I don't think there were any reason to fire him.

Actually, many Korean software corporations were getting nuts when the announcementnt was made that Ko was designated be the new KIPA president, since most of them expected that MS was behind this move, and the government will become more and more MS friendly. (Actually I expected this to happen, too.)

Some more google search showed that before working for Microsoft, he also worked for Sun Microsystems Korea and IBM Korea. :)

No one's in trouble - business as usual

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you think this is simply the standard way of negotiating with Microsoft these days? Announce that you like Linux and they cut you big discounts. Certainly if I were about to place a big order with Microsoft, I'd make sure I let them know I had an alternative.

Re:No one's in trouble - business as usual

[robertjw]

Don't you think this is simply the standard way of negotiating with Microsoft these days?

Maybe, but that negotiating tactic doesn't work if you aren't willing to back it up. If Microsoft didn't think you were willing to go with that alternative, at some level, they wouldn't beother giving discounts.

Re:No one's in trouble - business as usual

[chris_mahan]

Naw man, if you've been dating this girl a while and she lets you bang her once in a while, and you meet this other chick who's a freak in bed and wants to do everything and then some on a daily basis, and you tell your girlfriend (mistake number one) and she puts out a little more for a couple of days hoping to keep you (your money) around a bit longer, and you fall for it (mistake number two) and pass on freak-in-bed's offer of wild, off-the-chart mind-blowing sex; you cannot later complain that your partner's performance, is, hum, adequate at best.

Same thing with Microsoft. You either put up with their little tantrums, or you just dump them and go on, but you do not play little mind games.

There is hope!

[Walkiry]

High Linux userbase in South Korea woud mean more games ported to Linux. It's the only thing that keeps windows in my machine.

I want to be freeee!

Re:There is hope!

[TeknoHog]

more games ported to Linux. It's the only thing that keeps windows in my machine.

I want to be freeee!

Nobody is forcing you to use Windows. You can be MS-free right now, if you want.

If you like a game that's only available to Windows, you basically have two choices:

• Harass the makers to release a Linux (or OSX, or whatever) version. If enough people do this, they will release it.
• If the makers insist on Windows-only releases, why would you want to deal with them in the first place? It means they're in bed with MS.

Re:There is hope!

[drspliff]

If the makers insist on Windows-only releases, why would you want to deal with them in the first place? It means they're in bed with MS.

No, it's just because producing a multi-platform game usually increases development time and testing time by at minimum 1.5x.

The problem is that if you spent another 6 months on a project, the result of that additional 6 months of work isn't always justified by the increased number of sales or larger userbase.

This is true in almost all areas of multi-platform software development, so your assuption that companies who only release for the Windows platform are in bed with Microsoft is wrong. (Unless it's Valve or Gearbox your talking about..)

Re:There is hope!

[ari_j]

If the makers insist on Windows-only releases, why would you want to deal with them in the first place? It means they're in bed with MS.

Although this inference isn't entirely reasonable, I think it'd be better to prove my point by analogy: "If a programmar insists on Linux-only releases, it means he's in bed with Linus."

Re:There is hope!

[DrMrLordX]

People will happily deal with Windows-only developers if they produce quality games. What more reason do they need than that?

Re:There is hope!

[NineNine]

If the makers insist on Windows-only releases, why would you want to deal with them in the first place? It means they're in bed with MS.

Ahh, /. is full of financial wizards today! Of course they are! Why would a company develop software for 99% of a market, when instead they could be writing software for a whopping 1% of the market?? It's a consiracy!!

Troll.

Re:There is hope!

[mysticwhiskey]

If you ever find yourself in bed with MS, be sure you remembered to bring your own lube.

Re:There is hope!

[Anonymous Coward]

If the makers insist on Windows-only releases, why would you want to deal with them in the first place?

Maybe you want to play their games?

It means they're in bed with MS.

No, it means their profit margins are slim enough that they can't afford to throw money down the drain releasing a Linux port that nobody wants.

Seriously. Linux gaming was tried - by Loki - and it failed, because nobody wanted to buy Linux games. And even if a company did release a Linux version of their game, who would thank them? Slashdot would be as full of whining as ever, it's just that the whining would be along the lines of "Games want to be free! I want the source code!" and "It doesn't work on my PPC Linux, why is it only x86?!" and "I prefer Tux Racer, why did they port this Half-Life shit anyway" and so on.

Re:There is hope!

[TeknoHog]

"If a programmar insists on Linux-only releases, it means he's in bed with Linus."

Possibly... but Linux programmers would probably use some kinds of standard, which would be portable across many more platforms.

Re:There is hope!

[TeknoHog]

Why would a company develop software for 99% of a market, when instead they could be writing software for a whopping 1% of the market?? It's a consiracy!!

My post may not have been quite clear, but my point remains that nobody is forcing people to use Windows.

If a software company is developing for Windows only, it means some level of commitment/connection to Microsoft. They are supporting Windows at the expense of other platforms. I can choose not to support that company, because I don't want any connection with them either.

My point is not about the market forces, it's about supporting the spirit of freedom and Right Things.

Re:There is hope!

[DogDude]

You go right ahead and not support companies that make Windows only software. You'll be stuck with crappy open source knock-offs. Your loss. I doubt that the loss of your business keeps Bill Gates up at night.

Re:There is hope!

[VanillaCoke420]

You cannot possibly be serious. Don't you think they are developing software to reach as many users as possible?

Re:There is hope!

[Short Circuit]

I only expect to do Linux-only releases because I only run Linux, and I haven't yet gone looking for a Windows Perl developer who likes D&D. :)

Interesting.

[millisa]

That's definitely interesting. Didn't notice the netblock was there. Did some other quick searching to see if there was any other 'official' sites and a few pop up . . none of them from sources I would trust as being in the know of which one is 'official' if there is one . . .

The other one I'm seeing linked to a lot and sometimes referred to as the 'other official' site is This one. But again, it's a plus if it really is 'official' since it's an Apache 2.0 box on SuSE...

Re:Damn communists!

[Anonymous Coward]

No communism is the utopian society where no state or opression exists of anyone - society of ultimate freedom - wich some people think can be reached by the dictatorship of the proletariat (russia, NK, etc). But others believe in other ways to reach the communist world through a evolutionary process. There has not yet been any country/society that has been communist. All examples many people have (north korea, soviet russia, china, cuba, etc) are in fact not communist only totalitarian states with "goals" to reach the utopian communist society - however, this "goal" is more or less just a smokescreen to make the people happy.

Soo, free software is pretty much like the communist society where everyone just lives in harmony with eachother - "to each according to need, from each according to ability" - just as OSS. However, free software is nothing like totalitarian dictatoriships, of course, which in turn has nothing to do with a communist society.

Free Software in Korea

[Anonymous Coward]

All the links in these used to work.

Free Software in Korea: Part One -- The Microsoft Connection
<URL:http://linuxtoday.com/developer/1 999100400105 NWLF/>

Free Software in Korea: Part Two -- The Linux Side
<URL:http://linuxtoday.com/developer/1999101 000105 NWLF/>

Last bastion of civilisation

[Silver Sloth]

I'm not sure that South Korea is a member of the Axis of Evil. Aren't they our bold friends holding back the commie menace?

Re:But...

[dallaylaen]

being backed by a terrorist nation

Dynamite can be used by terrorists, that doesn't tarnish the Noble prize.

Guns can be used by terrorists, but the armies don't throw them away or destroy them!

Hell, someone could take a sledgehammer and break down his neighbour's door. That would not put the blame on sledgehammers.

Please mod parent:

[Anonymous Coward]

* Troll
* Uninformed
* Geographically challenged
* Victim of the US education system

Thanks.

Not a tactical move

[kjoonlee]

Mod parent down, -1 cynicism.

http://www.software.or.kr/ will be taking requests for funding. Software.or.kr is the place that's sponsoring the KLDP CodeFests (all night FOSS hacking parties) in Korea.

http://wiki.kldp.org/wiki.php/CodeFest

Re:Damn communists!

[the_womble]

Aren't the North Koreans the evil communists? Isn't South Korea home to the free market

Exactly, so:

• The North Koreans would be happier with something centrally planned and tightly controlled.
• The South Koreans would see the benefits of consumer choice and appreciate the economic efficiency that results from pricing set by a competitive (i.e. non-monopoly) market

Incidentally given that the North Koreans have heavily into personality cults, claiming credit for everything, and heavy propaganda they would be a good fit for MS.

Good propaganda. Not.

[torpor]

You can see the photoshop, for cryin' out loud.

Stupid cheesy American agitprop. Lose!

Wow...

[bmo]

All those infringers of SCO intellectual property...

At $699 per cpu license, Darl McBride must be hopping with joy at the thought of all those Koreans buying SCO IP licenses. Yes indeed, you too can get one of these protection licenses. All you have to do is read the SCO IP website!

wget -v --mirror www.sco.com/scoip/

Be sure to download all available information so you can be an informed SCO IP Protection license customer! It would be a shame if you didn't!

Remember, the command again is wget -v --mirror www.sco.com/scoip/

Get your documentation and license Today!

--
BMO

"Contracts are what we use against customers" -Darl McBride

N Korea

[davidmcg]

Wonder if we'll see North Korea following on... Can't see North Korea paying outlandish licence fees to Microsoft :)

Re:N Korea

[HiThere]

How many computers would we be talking about? For one or two computers the initial cost isn't THAT horrific. Not for a country, even a poor one.

Microsoft Anti-piracy move

[draxredd]

Microsoft has finally come up with a plan to supress Windows piracy in the south-east : Widescale Linux Adoption.

;)

Re:Good propaganda. Not.

[DenDave]

; -- societies can forever be divided by their secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets.

Uh huh... and you think the North's black-out is propaganda... It's actually against the law in DPRK to have lights on after dark because the country considers itself at war and still maintains blackout..
And of course "Juche" shows how to enlighten and free the people....

Re:Korean Linux

[commodoresloat]

I can't read a word of it, but how can you go wrong with that somersaulting Tux animation? I say throw caution to the wind -- install it right away and convert all your main boxes to Sarang linux. That is, umm, if it actually is a distro.

Re:Good propaganda. Not.

[torpor]

Uh huh... and you think the North's black-out is propaganda... It's actually against the law in DPRK to have lights on after dark because the country considers itself at war and still maintains blackout..


And you know all this how? Your own media. Yup, go on trusting that faithfully, consumerican!

Get some good ol' "Madison Avenue" Juche for you, why don't you!

Nobel

[commodoresloat]

Dynamite can be used by terrorists, that doesn't tarnish the Noble prize.

Actually, the Nobel prize was Alfred Nobel's attempt to make up for his regret about the fact that dynamite was used by terrorists and governments in war. Dynamite had plenty of legitimate uses in construction but he was uncomfortable with the uses of it for violence, and gave the fortune that he made in dynamite to the fund for the Nobel prize. So while dynamite doesn't tarnish the Nobel prize, its use by terrorists actually did tarnish Nobel himself (at least in his own mind), and the Nobel prize was sort of a way of redeeming him.

Re:Nobel

[burndive]

That must be why he became an arms dealer.

Actually

[DarKry]

This is an excellent point. I do IT for a company in Ukraine and our problem right now is that this country is starting to come around into the 21st century. Up till now it has always been that piracy is the norm (even for big companies). Everyone here uses windows, all our servers are windows, but I am not sure that the company actually owns a single Windows license. They hired me to try and switch EVERYTHING to linux. We are doing client machines first because thats where the huge costs come in. If they were to actually pay for all the software we are using right now it would bust the company (we are talking more spent on software than on employee salaries). So legitimacy is great and all but its a pain in the ass to switch to legitimacy after the fact. South Korea is probably in the same position, The US is riding them to get legit but the fact of the matter is no one can afford Microsoft's ridiculous costs. Sure its great for US businesses where there are millions just sitting around but in countries where the average person make $400 a year its just not feasable. Bah I will stop ranting and get back to this Gentoo install.

Re:Actually

[ajs318]

Exactly. For many people, the only way of getting legal {if unauthorised copying of software actually is illegal in those countries ..... did anyone bother to check?} is to switch to Open Source. Microsoft aren't going to like it, but them's the breaks.

Re:Actually

[deathguppie]

You sir, are my hero!!

Re:Actually

[DrNibbler]

Bah I will stop ranting and get back to this Gentoo install.

hmm gentoo on desktops... getting paid by the hour, eh?

Re:Actually

[DarKry]

This one is going to be the Intranet server :)

Re:Actually

[DarKry]

Thats the reality of the country... Its insane to see a street full of western european shops selling clothes for $100 a shirt in a country where most (or I should say lucky) people make that in a month. The shops are of course empty and the effect is that everyone buys from them but only owns 1 shirt. Personally I can't see spending a months salary on a single article of clothing but apparently thats the norm here.

Re:Actually

[HiThere]

Not that bad an idea...if you have a lot of the same model of machine. Install once and mirror the binaries/configs. (Not quite sure how one would do that on Gentoo, but I'm rather certain it's possible. Probably nothing more required than copying a few directory trees.)

Given that South Korea is one of the most

[MerlinTheWizard]

technologically-active and innovative country in today's world, that should say something... and give hope to all of us who think OSS in general is closely linked to technological innovation, freedom and actually more commercial activity overall.

Axis of Evil

[Frankie70]

Is this because Asia wants to try Linux and thinks it's the best, or is it because of the anti American (And Microsoft is very American) feelings?


South Korea is different from North Korea

A bit of perspective please

[Ricardo]

Just so you guys know, South Korea is internet/computer CRAZY! - they love it!. The covereage of broadband there is one of the best in the world. It is the only country to have 2 (yes 2) internet game tv shows - ie where they actually show games happening, and not just review lame games for advertising $$$.
This is the reflection of a popular culture that has made the population know whats what, and government reacting in a wise and well informed (and not comercially brow beaten) way.

Also Although South Korea SOUNDS alot like North Korea, can we get over it please?. This is a bit like comparing Alaska with Russia (because they are duhhh close-ish - I think). There is often similar problems discerning Ireland from Northern Island - the first is a country, the second is a region of Britain.

Re:Damn communists!

[inmate]

and a variation on that theme is:

the difference between a democracy and a peoples democracy, is that same as the difference between a jacket and a strait-jacket

For the average Korean...

[alwsn]

I've been teaching in Korea for two years so far and the average Korean could not use Linux productively. The reason being is that almost every web site requires ActiveX to do anything; logon, make purchases, check email. Even on the sites not requiring ActiveX, they look like garbage on anything but IE. One plus is that MS office is not nearly as intrenched as it is in the States with many Koreans preferring a Korea Office suite (I cannot remember the name as I do not use it myself.) And, of course, you cannot play Kart Rider on linux.

Re:For the average Korean...

[randalx]

This might be the first step in forcing those websites to drop ActiveX controls and make their sites work well in standards compliant browsers.

Re:For the average Korean...

[kertong]

alwsn,

on a side note, how are you enjoying teaching in korea? I was a korean native until 1986 (came over here when I was 6).

I've always wanted to go back to korea for an year or two to make a living there, but decided I had to work in the tech sector. Now that the S. Korean government is switching to linux, do you think many linux admin jobs will open? Tempting...

One other "barrier to entry" for this linux switch, is that starcraft and gunbound don't natively run on linux :)

Oil - fall of the dollar, rise of the Euro

[Anonymous Coward]

Countries are preparing for the rise of the Iranian Euro based oil exchange. This will destroy the US dollar as the reserve currency of the world - a very cunning move by Iran, and seen by some as provocation for a US invasion. Iraq switched to selling oil in US dollars less than a year before it was invaded by the US. Now Iraqi oil is once again sold in US$.

What an interesting world we live in.

Re:But...

[DrMrLordX]

That's the best post I've seen in a long time. A winnar is you! You technical monkey.

In related news from North Korea...

[Alsee]

The People's Democratic Republic of Korea now advocates the Open Freedom Microsoft operating system.

-

Can't Help It

[kokoloko]

So does this mean that now only old people will be using Windows?

Re:Can't Help It

[Sandlin]

Only old people using M$ mess? I am one of those "old" (it's all in your mind) people, and i was a Windozzzz user until I wised up and got Linux. Considering human nature is the same everywhere, I am assuming that the South Korean oldsters will also switch.
And, as technologically advanced as the South Koreans are, they will develop a Linux distro that is point-and-click easy.
(Just having fun with you!)

Re:Korean Linux

[highwind81]

Actually, that website is a very popular (in korea that is) personal homepage of a famous linux lover, Juksu. Sarang.net is the hosting company in which his homepage resides. If you care for a commercial korean linux distro go here (it's in korean). If you want to check out a great Korean linux community site check out the Korean Linux Documentation Project (KLDP).

Re:Proprietary Software... so 20th century

[TeknoHog]

Actually, I think software originated as Free, from its beginnings in academia. It was only later that the idea of selling proprietary, closed software was 'invented'.

Nevermind...

[JayJay.br]

...only old people will use Linux anyway.

In other news, distros will be forced to use KDE. Either that, or they will change the country name to South Gorea.

/me hides in shame for excessive Slashdot cliche use.

A bit of geography

[GWTPict]

The UK's full title,

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

So Northern Ireland is part of the UK, not a region of Britain. It is of course very close to Ireland, consisting as it does of 6 of the 9 counties of the historic north eastern Irish province of Ulster.

Too expensive

[slashusrslashbin]

Maybe Microsoft could offer some kind of discount?

I mean that's never happened before...

Re:Damn communists!

[Eternally optimistic]

Every country that has attempted communism has ended up, very quickly, with a totalitarian society. No thank you.

Cheer up, Microsoft!

[macdaddy357]

When South Korea does something, North Korea usually does the opposite. Since South Korea is going with Linux, maybe Kin Jung Il will go with Windows for North Korea.

Re:Cheer up, Microsoft!

[kanweg]

No, to retaliate they'll probably choose Gentoo. Bert

Re:Cheer up, Microsoft!

[Dorsai65]

Considering the poverty of N. Korea, I don't think 3 WinXP purchases is going to help MS all that much...

What was it?

[DarkOx]

In Korea only old people use Microsoft?

nul

[scovetta]

I think you forgot to pipe that stuff to /dev/nul, and repeat the fetch indefinately...

Re:Damn communists!

[B2382F29]

And other countries that attempted democracy are ending up, very quickly, with a totalitarian society. So what's your point?

Re:Proprietary Software... so 20th century

[rubycodez]

even before academia, the "big iron" vendors like IBM and CDC were mainly interested in hardware sales or lease, and gave away OS and compiler sources. Of course, being assembly, is was only of use on their own machines...

Re:Damn communists!

[Anonymous Coward]

country that has attempted communism

That's just it. Those countries aren't communist by definition. Marx himself believed that communism was the natural result of increase in productivity. Most of the so-called "communist" nations have tried to instate communist equality without the prerequisite productivity to do so.

Marx believed the industrial revolution would bring about worldwide communism because there would be nothing more people (individuals) could do to increase productivity or the quality or amount of goods created. At that point, he theorized, capital would be the source of all wealth and we would either have to split up the capital fairly or kill each other over it. In a way, he was right. People are generally worthless in the creation of many goods today. Most western societies could live quite comfortably without anyone doing more than an hour a day of actual work.

Progressive socialist movements all across Europe ended up making many concessions from capitalism and the free market and towards communism. Many wholly "communist" philosophers such as Trotsky and Lenin broke with the movements in their own countries because they turned out to be "smoke screens" for increased government control and furtherance of inequality. These countries essentially destroyed their economies by assuming that the product of individual effort would go towards the collective, essentially disincentivising any work at all and completely ignoring Marx's well thought-out economic basis of communism.

Countries that have stuck with capitalism and free markets make a different set of assumptions. The US assumes that "full employment" is the holy grail of economic policy. Everyone must be working, as much as possible. That will make us happy and wealthy. What have we ended up with? Anti-discrimination laws, fights over unemployment and health benefits, lots of effort essentially wasted making workplaces accessible to the handicapped, who contribute very little to overall productivity, and lots of people getting paid to sit around getting fat and playing on the internet all day.

Health costs have skyrocketed. Instead of designing machines to do the last 10% of every job, people get to assemble stamped parts into a final product. People are dying or having major surgeries essentially due to obesity, stress, and repetitive strain injuries. The first jobs to be automated are the highest paying ones, jobs involving thought or skill instead of dumb repetitive motion.

Why do we do this? There are certain fixed costs involved in living. You have to have insurance and a car in order to get to work. You have to work to eat. You have no choice but to go to work all day, every day, making crap that's designed to break or sitting in a chair doing something that a computer could easily be doing, and sacrifice your health and happiness in exchange for your ration of oil and food and other products of the land your fathers fought to free from opression. Who lives in totalitarianism again?

The real reason...

[MayorDefacto]

Obviously, the real reason why the S. Korean government is advocating Linux for governmental and public sector use is to keep those bureaucrats from playing Starcraft all day long on their Windows boxen...

I think they mean North Korea

[soft_guy]

Isn't North Korea the communist Korea? Wouldn't they be the ones using Linux then, since Linux is the Official OS of communism?

Or is it only old people in south Korea who are using Linux?

Re:Good propaganda. Not.

[DenDave]

ROFL!
I'll concede that my info is second hand but it comes from someone who claims to have worked in DPRK. Of course they could be secret agents in the employ of Dr. Evil but I'll bet not.
as for me being a consumerican, not me, I ain't no seppo.

Re:You can't have your version of communism

[Gnu IS Unix]

The capitalists are the thiefs, communism brings back what capitalists have stolen to the proletariat. What do you mean with "take action"? If the capitalists use violence against the state, then the state will use the minimum amount of violence to overtake the capitalists resources, if it can't be done peacefully and then start a trial against them for using violence (or murder or whatever they've done). I don't support any of the "communist" states that have existed until now, because they haven't tried the right way, they were more fascists than communists. However, I do believe in communism (and not marxism-leninism).

Re:it is to laugh

[HiThere]

In case you aren't a troll:

How long has it been since you've looked at one of the distributions targeted at the new user?

It's true that some of the programs are different...and that I wouldn't currently recommend KWord. (It's been over a year since I've checked them out though.)

It's also true that the systems most targeted to new-users have MSWind mimic interfaces. Xandros and Lindows come to mind. And both have per seat licensing charges.

(Actually, it's also true that I'm going by what the salesmen say. Not a good policy. But I'm sticking with Debian...until I try something else again.)

So I don't REALLY know that the novice user distributions are easy. I just know that Debian is. And that it has lots of good packages that do what I need (as well as some that don't).

If you don't like KDE, try Gnome. If you don't like either, pick a different interface. FVWM or something. But don't think of it that way, just pick the distribution that looks right. Lycoris, perhaps.