Next Gen Oxyride Batteries Coming Soon

marksilverman writes "The New York Times is reporting that Panasonic will start selling (Biometric scan required to prove your value as a human being) next generation Oxyride batteries soon. They last twice as long as premium alkaline batteries, they deliver more power, and they're cheaper. They're already popular in Japan. The downside? They have a shorter life in a "rundown test" where you put the batteries in and leave the power on until they're drained. In real-world scenarios (like how many digital pictures you can take) they do really well."

Comments

Oxyride Car & Test ...

[foobsr]

Oxyride Car

Oxyride Test

CC.

Pretty impressive...

[TripMaster Monkey]

From the article:

These amazing batteries are so powerful that just two AA-size cells can run the 9-ft long Oxyride(TM) Extreme Power car for up to 3/4 of a mile with a driver aboard!

Never mind that the 'car', a spindly little affair on 3 bicycle wheels, only achieves a speed of about 0.88 m/sec, and the 'driver' is a 50-kg (110 lb) female....this is still damned impressive. Not just the batteries, either...I'd like to see the motor that was able to do this on only 3 volts.

Re:Pretty impressive...

[enosys]

I don't think the low voltage itself is that much of a problem. If necessary it can be boosted by a high efficiency switching power supply. This could also allow the batteries to be discharged very deeply.

Re:Pretty impressive...

[Anonymous Coward]

"a 50-kg (110 lb) female" now THAT is interesting

Re:Pretty impressive...

[Anonymous Coward]

The article did not mention the voltage of the AA size cells. Assumption is the mother of all mistakes.

HUH???

[menace690]

How in the world can they last both twice as long and half as lon at the same time. 2!=2^-1

Re:HUH???

[RadioheadKid]

Because the writer of the article doesn't understand some basic electricity princples, like the power equation and Ohm's law.

Re:HUH???

[ZephyrXero]

One is probably the length of time the battery retains it's charge as while the other is how long the battery can be recharged until it's unusable... (no, I didn't RTFA...just guessing)

Re:HUH???

[IndependentVik]

I'm assuming the new batteries last longer when not constantly under use. A digital camera, where the bulk of the drainage is in short spikes, might fare better with these new batteries. A radio, as a counterexample, might not be the best use for them, since the drain is steady, and radios can be expected to be left on for hours at a time.

Re:HUH???

[Vaevictis666]

If you do a full power to no power in one run drain cycle, the new batteries perform worse.

If you do a bunch of power on, power offs to drain the batteries, the new ones are much better.

Don't know the fine sciency details myself, but I do know that when batteries die, they're sometimes not quite dead - I've played my GBA into the ground, left it for a day, and then still got another half hour off of the "dead" batteries.

Essentially it means you want to use these in your digital camera, not your cell phone :P

Smaller cycles of being in-use could just extend that for measurement - I'd be interested in seeing how well they perform in a single full cycling, then re-use a few days later.

Re:HUH???

[toetagger1]

Why do you say that two factorial equals one half?

Re:HUH???

[InfiniteWisdom]

I've given up on asking people to read the article. But is it really too much to even read the post? One is a rundown test, where you continuously drain the battery. Most real devices aren't used that way.

Re:HUH???

[Anonymous Coward]

I think he's trying to say
2 (not equal to) 2^-1

Re:HUH???

[temojen]

They're disposable, and available in Canada under other trademarks than Oxyride.

Re:HUH???

[cmiller173]

Kind of like the difference between a deep cycle marine battery and a regular automobile battery. The automobile battery is designed to provide short bursts of power (and spends more of it's life being recharged as you drive) while the later is used constantly to run say an electric trolling motor. If you try to swap the applications the "other" battery won't last as long.

Re:HUH???

[ShieldW0lf]

ZephyrXero: Read the article next time you post. You're wrong. Moderators: Read the article next time you mod someone insightful. You're wrong.

Re:HUH???

[ShieldW0lf]

I've given up on asking people to read the article. But is it really too much to even read the post? One is a rundown test, where you continuously drain the battery. Most real devices aren't used that way.

The devices within my sight as I sit at my desk that use their batteries in a rundown fashion.:

1 Wall clock. 2 Watches. 1 Alarm clock. 1 Radio. 5 different electronic toys. 1 Flashlight. 2 Cell phones. 1 Answering machine.
Total: 14.

The devices within my sight that use intermitant high-bursts of power:
1 Digital Camera.
Total: 1

What was that you were saying about most real devices?

Re:HUH???

[InfiniteWisdom]

1. Wall clocls, watches and alarm clocks use and extremely small current
2. You don't keep the radio on all the time
3. You don't used your 5 different electronic toys all the time
4. You don't keep your flashlight on all the time
5. You don't use alkaline batteries in your cellphone
6. I strongly doubt that your answering machine uses batteries, but if it does, it uses and extremely small current except the ocassional periods when it's actually recording.

Re:HUH???

[ShieldW0lf]

Wall clocks, watches and alarm clocks all use the power in a rundown fashion. Who cares if they use a small current? They will still last half as long with these new batteries.

You don't keep the other devices on all the time, no. But they are still not burst-of-power type devices. When you do use them, you generally use them for a long time. Hours at a time. While I haven't had the opportunity to test these batteries in such devices, after reading the article, I'm led to believe that they do not match the usage pattern that makes these batteries the optimal choice.

The cell phones aren't using alkaline batteries. That's irrelevant to the fact that they are still a run-down style device, and one of the most popular devices on earth.

And it's nice to hear how you strongly doubt that I know what I'm talking about. I have a digital answering machine. You take the batteries out, the messages are gone. If that wasn't the case, I wouldn't put it on the list, would I?

If I am going to go and buy just enough batteries for each device each time I purchase, then these new batteries would have a place in my digicam, and I'd likely be better off with alkalines for the others. But I usually save money by buying my batteries at a department store in boxes of 40. In which case, I am likely going to see better returns on my money by skipping these new batteries, and throwing a couple of spare sets in my bag if I'm going out for extended periods taking pictures (like camping).

Re:HUH???

[i41Overlord]

The automobile battery is designed to provide short bursts of power (and spends more of it's life being recharged as you drive) while the later is used constantly to run say an electric trolling motor

My power source is optimized for trolling.

Re:HUH???

[xMilkmanDanx]

As batteries are used, there's a chemical reaction. Right after the reaction there's a higher concentration of the end result of that reaction by the equivalent of the electrode. It takes time in most batteries for that material to disperse allowing more of the desired reactants to mix. Resting batteries is just giving time for the desired chemical to get to the reaction site.

Re:HUH???

[Flendon]

3. You don't used your 5 different electronic toys all the time
4. You don't keep your flashlight on all the time

You don't have small kids do you? If you did you wouldn't have made that comment. They are the masters of the run down cycle.

Re:HUH???

[Anonymous Coward]

retains it's charge

"its".

how are they better

[avandesande]

how are they better than nicklemetalhydride cells? these store as much power and are rechargable.

Re:how are they better

[bird603568]

I don't think that they are alkaline batteries. It dosent make any sense ok so they last longer buy they die faster? WTF NMHD and Lion batterys arent alkaline batteries. IMH thats compairing apples to oranges or a pen to a pencil.

Re:how are they better

[avandesande]

i dont care what is IN the damn battery, just how they are useful to me.

Re:how are they better

[DeionXxX]

According to the link above that goes to PCWorld. They last almost as long. They last more than double of the Alkalines and cost the same amount ($4 for four).

Ofcourse they are not rechargeable.

Re:how are they better

[Enigma_Man]

The article says they're as cheap as a regular alkaline, which is in-turn about 1/3rd the cost of your average rechargable NiMH; that's the benefit.

-Jesse

Re:how are they better

[khrtt]

They are 3 times cheaper, and come fully charged, as opposed to NiMH, which you have to charge for hours before use. Disposable batteries in high-drain devices are an emergency solution.

Re:how are they better

[bird603568]

first i dont really care of NMHD because they have have a charge memory. I use Li-ion's. I would assume that they can hold the same amount. You COULD recharge them by running current the wrong way, reversing the reaction, but I wouldnt do it becuase they probally would explode.

Re:how are they better

[Waffle Iron]

how are they better than nicklemetalhydride cells?

No self-discharge.

For most devices that you use infrequently, rechargeable batteries are useless because they drain dead in a couple of months even when not in use.

Re:how are they better

[michael376071]

Li ions are usually only good for a few years though, perhaps if I used it alot would be better off to use.

Re:how are they better

[Glendale2x]

first i dont really care of NMHD because they have have a charge memory.

-1 Wrong

Nickel-metal hydride does suffer from a memory effect; nickel-cadmium, however, does.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/battery7.htm

Re:how are they better

[MechaStreisand]

NiMH batteries don't have a charge memory; you're thinking of NiCads. Plus, the best NiMH batteries store almost as much energy as alkalines, and in AA format they're not too expensive due to volume and competition.

Li-ion, on the other hand, is a very expensive format due to the need for internal circuitry to protect the battery, and as a result it doesn't come in the standard sizes, which can guarantee a high cost as each manufacturer can rip you off for their own format...

For many many applications, NiMH is by far the best way to go.

Re:how are they better

[hey!]

Yeah, that's huge. Eco-friendly me tried to get my family over to rechargeable alkalines, but they fail and leak too often. Then I tried to get them to use Nimh cells, but not only was the voltage not quite high enough, they were never charged when we needed them.

Re:how are they better

[StratoChief66]

yeah, I got ambitious one summer and convinced my mother to buy a decent set of rechargables. I kept track of them and made sure they were in the devices we use often and kept them charged. We saved a decent amount of money over a year and still have the batteries in good working condition. They save you money but it takes dedication and a memory.

Re:how are they better

[PrvtBurrito]

What are you talking about? I use nicklemetalhydride cells in all my smoke detectors and I haven't had to change them in two years! Next I'm going to install in my dads pacemaker....

Re:how are they better

[murphyslawyer]

NiMH batteries don't store as much power per volume as alkalines - almost none of the rechargeable chemistries do (although some lithium cells come close). The important thing to remember is that primary alkaline cells are around 1.5V/Cell, whereas NiMH batteries are 1.2V/Cell, so equivalent mAH != same amount of available power. Also, NiMH batteries usually have less mAH per cell than similarly sized Alkalines (around 1100 mAH vs. 1500 mAH IIRC). I believe they also have a slightly higher internal resistance, so you can't discharge them as hard as you can an alkaline, but it's been a long time since I did battery stuff at work. The great thing about NiMH batteries is that they're reasonably cheap, rechargeable and have slightly better discharge characteristics. Alkalines are pretty amazing in terms of energy density, and that's why they're so useful. NiMH is a good substitute when you can get away with it, but that's not always possible.

Re:how are they better

[PedanticSpellingTrol]

All the NiMH AA's I bought 5 years ago with my digital camera were 1600 mAH, I still have all of them, the new set I got a few months ago is 2400, they charge fully in less than 2 hours, don't have problems with deep discharge cycles... Honestly, I can't understand why everyone's not using them.

Re:how are they better

[murphyslawyer]

Gah - formatting gremlins.

NiMH batteries don't store as much power per volume as alkalines - almost none of the rechargeable chemistries do (although some lithium cells come close). The important thing to remember is that primary alkaline cells are around 1.5V/Cell, whereas NiMH batteries are 1.2V/Cell, so equivalent mAH != same amount of available power. Also, NiMH batteries usually have less mAH per cell than similarly sized Alkalines (around 1100 mAH vs. 1500 mAH IIRC). I believe they also have a slightly higher internal resistance, so you can't discharge them as hard as you can an alkaline, but it's been a long time since I did battery stuff at work.

The great thing about NiMH batteries is that they're reasonably cheap, rechargeable and have slightly better discharge characteristics.

Alkalines are pretty amazing in terms of energy density, and that's why they're so useful. NiMH is a good substitute when you can get away with it, but that's not always possible.

Re:how are they better

[timealterer]

Depending on the batteries and device, some rechargeable batteries won't even last for a month when not in use. My digital camera suffers from this: I've learned that I can't keep it ready for use for weeks, I have to keep the batteries in the charger and pull them out when I want to use the camera.

Re:how are they better

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not an advertisement; I am a happy customer. Go to www.all-battery.com and check out the prices on their OEM NiMH batteries. They're fricking cheap. I've had their batteries powering all my portable devices for several months now with no failures. Mind you, that's several months of heavy use.

Re:how are they better

[bani]

"Nickel-metal hydride does suffer from a memory effect; nickel-cadmium, however, does."

they both do?

Re:how are they better

[Anonymous Coward]

they both do?

Yes. They both do. NiMH has less memory than NiCad, but NiMH definately does have it.

Re:how are they better

[endlessoul]

The only rechargable batteries I've used on a regular basis are the Rayovac 15 Minute Rechargable batteries. 4 AAs in my digital camera, and they work fine. I've not used my camera in months, then went on vacation. Worked for the first 300 pictures. I saw no drainage from this test.

But, YMMV.

Re:how are they better

[jridley]

Yes, but in terms of lifetime cost, I charge my batteries hundreds of times. All I need is for my batteries to last a full day in whatever device, then I can put them back in the charger. Any more is useless.
It's sickening how many batteries wind up landfilled every year. NiMH rechargables work really well and are very cheap in quantity. Go check out batteryspace.com - AA's are about $30 per 24 cells. Still more than alkalines, but they outperform alkalines in high draw stuff (what many people use them for; digital cameras and flashes) by a lot.

Biometric what??

[Nom du Keyboard]

Biometric scan required to prove your value as a human being

Not entirely true. I have it on good authority that they'll accept gold bullion as well -- at least on Tuesdays.

Re:Biometric what??

[kwieland in stl]

Am I the only one who read that as "human bean"?

Re:Biometric what??

[Elwood P Dowd]

Excuse me, but which part of We don't want an open border with Mexico don't you understand, Mr. President?

I'd agree to close the border so long as they take Texas with them.

Re:Biometric what??

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you expect from a jackass who doesn't know that the term is nom de plume?

If people don't know enough French to know what they're saying, they don't really deserve to be taken seriously. (See also: the idiots who keep proudly saying "Viola!")

Re:Biometric what??

[Cecil]

(See also: the idiots who keep proudly saying "Viola!")

No, those are just the bad spellers or bad typers. The idiots are the ones who keep proudly saying "Walla!"

*shudder*

Re:Biometric what??

[operagost]

Funny, that's how I feel about California.

The power of oxygen!

[Anonymous Coward]

Will it clean your carpet too?

Just a scoop of Oxyride in the wash

[stratjakt]

Will make your whites whiter and your brights brighter.

Just watch how it cuts through this stubborn blood stain.

Re:Just a scoop of Oxyride in the wash

[Wyatt Earp]

Thats the first thing I thought of, Oxyclean on /....huh?

Re:Just a scoop of Oxyride in the wash

[PakProtector]

Man, if there is one thing I learned from my hobby of swordfighting, it's that nothing, but nothing, can get a pint of your best friend's blood out of a white talbard. Nothing, that is, except fire. The same fire you burn all the other incriminating evidence in.

Re:Just a scoop of Oxyride in the wash

[neurojab]

Man, if there is one thing I learned from my hobby of swordfighting, it's that nothing, but nothing, can get a pint of your best friend's blood out of a white talbard. Nothing, that is, except fire. The same fire you burn all the other incriminating evidence in.

somebody help... Should this be modded +1 funny, +2 scary, or +5 Hannibal Lechter?

Re:Just a scoop of Oxyride in the wash

[PakProtector]

Maybe /. should have a '+1, Horrifyingly Humourous?'

This is a little hard to swallow

[winkydink]

Then there's that bit about Oxyrides making MP3 players and CD players produce richer, fuller sound. Panasonic cited a test in Japan in which 80 percent of the players in an orchestra said they preferred the sound from an Oxyride-powered music player. (Panasonic doesn't include sound-quality claims in its official marketing, but it does say it's investigating.)

This one's a tougher call. In blind tests, most people couldn't tell any difference between a CD player with Oxyrides and one with regular alkalines. A few identified the Oxyrides as maybe being a bit richer-sounding, but said that the difference was awfully subtle. All participants confessed, though, that they were not members of a Japanese orchestra.

Yeah, I know that battery makers have been struggling to solve the problems of ripple. Puh-leez. What's the next claim? Women who use Oxyrides in their vibrators experience 15% increased intensity in their orgasms?

Hey Panasonic! QUick, better shorten that name to O-Rides.

Re:This is a little hard to swallow

[kidgenius]

Women who use Oxyrides in their vibrators experience 15% increased intensity in their orgasms?

Sounds like the perfect research project for my PhD.

Re:This is a little hard to swallow

[Anonymous Coward]

No AA battery is going to compete with a 120V outlet.

Re:This is a little hard to swallow

[winkydink]

Better yet, visit the Vibrator Museum in San Francisco and see the steam-powered one. Don't know if it's on the web site.

Re:This is a little hard to swallow

[harrkev]

My wife, for one, welcomes our new 15% increased orgasm overlords.

Re:This is a little hard to swallow

[nokiator]

Monster branded Oxyride batteries that cost 4 times more than regular alkaline batteries: coming to a Circuit City near you soon!

Re:This is a little hard to swallow

[WareW01f]

What's the next claim? Women who use Oxyrides in their vibrators experience 15% increased intensity in their orgasms?

Sure you laugh now, but have you seen the Panabrator? I didn't believe it myself when I fist saw it. (Come on! Folks in marketing had fun with that one!)

Ease your tension and massage away stress with Panasonic's Panabrator Portable hand-held massagers.

Truth usually tends to be stranger than fiction.

Re:This is a little hard to swallow

[norkakn]

actually, you should always use cheapo, non-alkaline batteries in vibraters because the higher voltage alkalines burn out the motors faster.

Re:This is a little hard to swallow

[TyfStar]

I hate to say it.. but that whole Vibrator claim is the first thing I thought of when I read:

they deliver more power, and they're cheaper.

But.. that's just me.

Re:This is a little hard to swallow

[The_Rook]

that's on par with those 'audiophiles' (and the people who market to them) who think a $2,500+ power line conditioner will make their hi fi sound better.

Re:This is a little hard to swallow

[Fancia]

That reminds me of a "personal massager" I saw in a catalogue once, where they really weren't trying to hide anything... it was even shaped in a general vibrator-like shape. The photo of a woman using it as a back massager was really almost surreal.

Re:This is a little hard to swallow

[gmhowell]

My wife has a cochlear implant and claims to notice the difference in sound amongst different alkaline battery brands. Blind comparisons show she isn't full of it. For that reason and lack of runtime, she avoids NiCds. Haven't tried any AA NiMH yet.

Oh, in case you don't know, the signal is sent directly (more or less) to her auditory nerve, so you remove the effects of the headphones, aural cavity, inner ear, etc.

Re:This is a little hard to swallow

[drew]

while i'm no expert in the audio field by any means, if these batteries are (as other posters suggest) delivering a higher voltage than typical batteries, it seems quite possible that they will make your audio player sound slightly different. at the very least, it could be delivering a different amount of power to the headphones, and while it's obviously not affecting the decoding algorithms of the player, it seems possible that it might have a minor affect in the D/A conversion process.

of course, whether something sounds 'better' in a case like this is extremely hard for most people to define. but if they can hear a subtle difference between the two batteries, they'll probably tell you that the more expensive one sounds better.

at any rate, the claims, while most likely meaningless, are not necessarily outright false.

Re:This is a little hard to swallow

[Anonymous Coward]

In general slightly louder sounds better to most people in comparisons at normal volume levels.

Re:This is a little hard to swallow

[street]

This is hilarious.

Re:This is a little hard to swallow

[mako1138]

Yeah, I was thinking along the same lines. But it's not likely to affect any digital paths, only analog. The amplifiers in most audio equipment are based around op-amps or transistors. If the rail voltages are increased, clipping and non-linearity are less likely to be present. So it does make sense theoretically, but yeah, the difference created by 0.4V (2 AAs) would be noticed by only the most sensitive ears.

Re:This is a little hard to swallow

[Anonymous Coward]

Women who use Oxyrides in their vibrators experience 15% increased intensity in their orgasms? Sounds like the perfect research project for my PhD.

Why? Is the "real thing" too small

Rechargeable?

[ackthpt]

If they're not, then no thanks.

A good set of NiMH cells does everything I ask of them for a couple years. The exepense of Alkaline cells would be far greater.

Other thought is, now we have in place processes for recycling consumer batteries. What's going to be required for these?

Re:Rechargeable?

[avandesande]

Not to mention how valuable is your time? I dont want to be bothered by having to stop for batteries when i can just pop them into a charger.

Re:Rechargeable?

[ajs]

We tried using rechargables where I work for pagers. Problem was that the rechargables don't die the same way as regular batteries. Time and time again the on-call person would find that their pager had just "shut off", where with traditional batteries, you got several hours or even days of warning that the battery was low.

Re:Rechargeable?

[vondo]

I use NIMH for most everything (and don't they last longer in digital cameras than alkalines?) but they are no good for flashlights, where you need long storage life and a lot of power. Long life is good too. So, I'll get a few of these oxy-whatever when they come out.

Re:Rechargeable?

[scorp1us]

In the article the rechargibles lastes LONGER than the O-rides, by 5 flashes. Recharge these things 3 times and you've more than recouped the cost of recharbles.

Next up is the fact that they were 1800mh batteries. My budget rechargeables are 2300, up from 2250 the year before.

Plus batteryspace.com regularly has a sale, currently you can get 24 rechargables for $29!!!

Re:Rechargeable?

[ackthpt]

I use NIMH for most everything (and don't they last longer in digital cameras than alkalines?) but they are no good for flashlights, where you need long storage life and a lot of power. Long life is good too. So, I'll get a few of these oxy-whatever when they come out.

Digi cameras kill alkaline cells due to the high current draw. I can usually do only 40 pictures with my old CoolPix 800 with alkalines, where I can do hundreds with a set of NiMH.

I've had a set of NiMH cells in my flashlight for over a year now. No problems.

Re:Rechargeable?

[Kohath]

Um. How about "I don't want to wait for batteries to charge when I can just stop and get some that are already charged".

Re:Rechargeable?

[scorp1us]

This is the test to which I was referring

Sorry for the confusion.

Re:Rechargeable?

[Anonymous Coward]

you're a freak

Disposables are evil

[Anonymous Coward]

Disposables are not easy to dispose of and are very poisonous. There new kinds of lithium ion batteries coming out that perform better than current lithium ion batteries.

Inevitable NYT article reaction

[AtariAmarok]

1. Those who complain about registration.
2. Those who complain about those who complain about registration.
3. Those who complain that more than half of the discussion about NYT items concerns NYT registration (I guess mine would fall into that category).

Actually, I felt no need to go to the article this time. Taco's summary was good enough, and this sounds like good news. Quickly-dying batteries is one of those "why is there so little progress here?" aspects of evolving tech that so often does annoy me.

Re:Inevitable NYT article reaction

[groomed]

Taco didn't write the summary. marksilverman did.

Density?

[toetagger1]

What is their density per hour of battery life? This is very important for not only for cameras, laptops, or other portable devices, but also things such as remote airplanes, or even electric cars, scooters, and segways. The lighter and smaller, the better. Does anyone know?

Laptop computer applications

[Krankheit]

If these are not chargable, these are just a stop-gap until we get fuel cells for electronics on the market. It may not be rechargable, but I beleive it will have higher energy for the volume. Also, the fact that it doesn't do as well on rundown tests is not too good if you need to charge capacitors.

Re:Laptop computer applications

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuel cells need a fuel to produce electricity. I don't think they will be any good for electronics (unless the electronics are AC powered and the power plant is a fuel cell). They aren't a replacement for batteries.

Here is some info on fuel cells: http://science.howstuffworks.com/fuel-cell1.htm

Take the Red Pill, Please...

[Spencerian]

Oxyride is made of PEOPLE playing games!!!

sounds engrish

[dtfinch]

oxyride

Re:sounds engrish

[getusout]

They're already popular in Japan.

Yeah, so we would call them "Oxwide" probably.

Re:sounds engrish

[UrgleHoth]

No, I'd say it is anguish

Re:sounds engrish

[StikyPad]

Wants pawn term dare worsted ladle gull hoe lift wetter murder inner ladle cordage honor itch offer lodge, dock, florist. Disk ladle gull orphan worry Putty ladle rat cluck wetter ladle rat hut, an fur disk raisin pimple colder Ladle Rat Rotten Hut.

That's hilarious.. unfortunately, you have to actually read down a bit before it gets really funny, so nobody is likely to notice. Wish I had mod points.

Userfriendly?

[brontus3927]

According to the press release, they will be packaged in "user-friendly" packaging. Will it open itself for you

Re:Userfriendly?

[Anonymous Coward]

reminds me of the comedian discussing the relative packaging of light bulbs vs. batteries...

Why DO fragile incandescent bulbs come in such flimsy packaging?

they don't last twice as long ...

[porky_pig_jr]

as the premium, and the best cost-effective solution is NiMH rechargable. See the article in New Your Times - rather thorough review. (no, I don't provide the URL, but it's in tech section).

Re:New York Times Accounts

[iCEBaLM]

Because, that sir is copyright infringement.

Article writer REALLY DUMB!

[Nom du Keyboard]

Oxyride batteries are also supposed to deliver more power. The result, the company says, is that battery-operated toothbrushes spin faster, flashlights shine brighter, camera flashes are quicker to recharge and music players produce richer sound.

This is one of the dumbest paragraphs I've seen recently in the (so-called) scientific press.

Is there more current, more voltage, or both? Any of the above is possible from what they say above, and none of these will give you richer sound on your portable music player.

Why not say:
Your battery-operated tooth brush will over-stress its plastic gears.
Flashlights burn out quicker.
Camera flashes let you take more bad family photos quicker than before.
And because you're now using the latest technology, you will even imagine that your portable music player sounds richer than ever.

Then again, who really still expects truth to be found in the NYT?

Re:Article writer REALLY DUMB!

[kidgenius]

Did you read just a little further down? The article mentions that these batteries put out 1.7V vs. 1.5V for a regular alkaline.

Re:Article writer REALLY DUMB!

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't ruin his high, he's been waiting since Jayson Blair was fired for another article in the NYT to be completely made up, and he's all giddy like a little kid again because it must clearly be lying since it doesn't explain electrical engineering principles in the first paragraph!

Re:Article writer REALLY DUMB!

[Phil246]

probably not from the player itself, but possibly from the headphones you plug into them.

Re:Article writer REALLY DUMB!

[Yi Ding]

Now, does anyone but me think that this might be a bad thing? If your device is designed to handle a 1.5 volt power source, and instead it gets a 1.7 volt power source, couldn't that damage the device? Of course, a lightbulb wouldn't be hurt by such a thing, but something with complex electronic chips in it?

Re:Article writer REALLY DUMB!

[Phanatic1a]

.2 volts is not going to make a difference. Anything with "complex electronic chips" is likely going to be voltage-regulated anyway, even if it's just with a Zener.

Re:Article writer REALLY DUMB!

[NathanBullock]

NiMH puts out something like 1.2 volts. 1.2 vs 1.7 is starting to be a fairly large spread. My Cannon takes 4 batteries so now we are looking at 4.8 volts vs 6.8 volts. That seems fairly significant.

If I remember correctly Kodak cameras are designed for Lithium Ion or NiMH batteries, Alkaline batteries aren't recommended because they put out too much voltage. This would lead me to believe that these new batteries with even a higher voltage could definately be a problem.

Re:Article writer REALLY DUMB!

[anubi]

Regarding your lithium batteries and having equipment sensitive to battery voltage tolerances...

Either I go through batteries like a banshee, or I hardly ever use 'em at all, but expect 'em to work when I do need 'em.

Some things like MP3 players, power tools, or cameras get lots of heavy usage and substantial electron flows course their circuitry. Those get NIMH. NIMH has lousy shelf life, but if I use the things within a week of charging them, they work well, as I can refill 'em as needed.

There are other things which I will probably never use the available chemical energy stored in the cell, but I do want what it has available for use, even if its five or ten years from now. Things like the flashlight stored along my spare tire in the car, my volt-ohmmeter, my differential amplifier front-end test probe set. Calculators. Remote-controls. that sort of thing.

My biggest concern by far for these applications has been the leaking battery pack, which upon being ignored for several years, exudes a very corrosive electrolyte paste into the battery compartment of my thing, which I do not discover until I try to use the thing and discover it no longer works.

I have had countless disappointments with the ability of alkaline and NiCD/NiMH cells to hold their fluids. Alkaline tops the list by far, but I have also had leakage from things like those solder-in NiCd cells on motherboards leak and ruin the circuitry around it.

I have yet to see a lithium battery fail in this manner.

So for applications where I frequently "service" the battery, they get the rechargeable variety, as I will usually discover any chemical leakage before any significant damage is done.

For those applications which I install a battery then leave it alone for years, yet expect it to work when I use it, such as remote controls and test equipment, I insist on lithium cells if at all possible.

I was very delighted Everready came out with their Lithium AAA cells in addition to their AA cell. The first things I immediately upgraded to Lithium was all my remote controls, wireless mouse, and my beloved TI-85 graphing calculator, as all of the above still had operable alkaline cells, but I did not rest easy knowing at any time the cells could rupture and ruin some irreplacable equipment. I will note that my TI-85 graphing calculator did not like the slightly elevated voltage of brand new lithium cells, as evidenced by the LCD display contrast control going out of range, and not allowing me set it for a usable display. Being the calculator draws so little power, I figure I might be safe if I use older Lithiums in it when I age a few in the mouse or remotes, as a few month's service in a remote may drain enough "surface charge" from the cells to get the voltage proper for the calculator.

Those Everready lithium cells seem ideal for those cool little LED flashlights DORCY has been selling through WalMart and Target. It looks as if the combo of those technologies yield a handy little light you can prepare today for your "emergency kit" and know that when you need it, it will work. You know the drill - when you tuck a flashlight in your car's glove box because the last time you had the unfortunate thrill of discovering you had a flat tire, you were alone and it was pitch dark and you had to change the tire by feel. As you well know, most batteries won't last long in the glove compartment of a car because of the hot temperatures of summer.

If this new "oxyride" cell has the advantage of extremely long shelf life, let's compare it to Lithium. If it has larger capacity, lets compare it to the alkaline chemistry, or if it has more rechargeability, compare it to NiMH.

Each of the three battery chemistries is best suited to specific applications. Even though each chemistry will pinch-hit for the others, its not as ideal of fit as choosing the proper chemistry for the intended application.

Re:Article writer REALLY DUMB!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Did you read just a little further down? The article mentions that these batteries put out 1.7V vs. 1.5V for a regular alkaline."

First, devices that were designed to use AA batteries were designed for 1.5 V cells. If the device needed higher voltage, it would have required an additional battery. Second, the 1.5 V and 1.7 V figures are open-circuit voltages. Try wiring the terminals of a AA battery together and measuring the voltage.

Alkaline batteries could be made to have an open-circuit voltage of 1.7 V or even higher. I've got a couple of 12 V alkaline batteries that are smaller than AAAs. I suspect that making Oxyride batteries 1.7 V was a marketing decision.

Re:Article writer REALLY DUMB!

[cookd]

Voltage is per-cell. AA, AAA, C, and D cells have one cell. 9v alkaline batteries have 6 cells. 6 x 1.5 = 9. Your 12v alkaline batteries have 8 cells.

The chemistry of the battery leads to an inherent specific single-cell voltage. How that voltage varies with load can be affected by design changes (ion concentrations, etc.), but the no-load voltage of the cell is an inherent characteristic of the battery's chemistry.

Re:Article writer REALLY DUMB!

[psycho8me]

Power is the electromotive force, measured in volts. More power means more volts.

Re:Article writer REALLY DUMB!

[StikyPad]

.2 volts is not going to make a difference. Anything with "complex electronic chips" is likely going to be voltage-regulated anyway, even if it's just with a Zener.

A 13% boost isn't going to make a difference?

Most of the devices listed were unregulated.. flashlights, DC motors, etc.

The digital parts of the other electronics will surely be unaffected, but the analog parts, such as your audio amps are voltage regulated via the volume knob -- full attenuation through zero resistance -- and the sound may very well sound less distorted at full volume. Assuming, of course, that your earphones can handle it and the audio amps aren't being overdriven. The benefits are most certainly going to vary from device to device, but it's quite possible to have cleaner sound at high volumes.

If you're using a device with digital volume control, you're possibly (but not definately) SOL.

Re:Article writer REALLY DUMB!

[Phil246]

actually power is measured in watts. Voltage is measured in volts.

p = i*v
see for yourself

Re:Article writer REALLY DUMB!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, in blind listening tests the louder components often win out against their softer rivals (or even the same system set at a lower volume). Moreover, there are headphones which need a certain amount of power to be driven properly (like speakers), and which might be driven better by a music player with more power behind it. So, it's not unreasonable to assume that people listening to a music player with more power behind it might feel that they are getting richer sound. In the end, I guess, it really all depends on what you mean by richer sound.

Re:Article writer REALLY DUMB!

[ltbarcly]

False...

Kodak cameras don't use Alkaline because Alkaline batteries quickly decrease in voltage. NiMH die off very little, then suddenly lose all voltage at the very end of their charge.

So with Alkaline batteries you only get like 15% of the life of the battery used when the camera thinks it is dead.

Plus Alkaline have poor characteristics for high current loads, which is due to low internal resistance I believe.

Re:Article writer REALLY DUMB!

[QuietLagoon]

This is one of the dumbest paragraphs I've seen recently in the (so-called) scientific press.

The paragraph you quote contained the phrase, "the company says", indicating that the paragraph was more marketing than factual. If you had read the rest of the article, you would have seen that the author tested reality vs. what the company said.

Then again, who really still expects truth to be found in the NYT?

OK, now it is apparent why you chose you misquote the article, you have an agenda to fill.

Reg-free link

[The Hobo]

clicky

Done with the help of the NYT Link generator.

Re:From the previous paragraph

[stinkyfingers]

In the exact same article

As it turns out, the power-boosting effect is no marketing concoction; it's real. In identical flashlights, Oxyrides produce an obviously wider, whiter circle of light than Duracell Ultras. You can immediately tell the difference in portable fans, too, because the Oxyride fan hums at a higher pitch, a musical step higher than the Duracell one. The Oxyrides even make power screwdrivers spin faster: 364 r.p.m., compared with 316 r.p.m. for the Duracell Ultras.

I would venture to guess that if the vibrator doesn't have a power regulator, it'll vibrate faster. If that'll increase the intensity of a woman's orgasm is left as an exercise for the class.

No Registration Needed

[blackmonday]

Courtesy of Cnet

Disposable batteries should be illegal.

[TomRitchford]

A new crop of one-use batteries full of heavy metals unleashed on a world that's generally too irresponsible to have any systematic method of dealing with them -- just what we need! (Yes, I know that there are some places, notably Japan, that do a good job of handling batteries... but that isn't the Good Ol' US of A.)

Re:Disposable batteries should be illegal.

[Anonymous Coward]

are you trying to say the current alkeline batteries we have are not disposable? oops

Re:Disposable batteries should be illegal.

[deglr6328]

Where are the heavy metals? I see graphite (carbon) manganese dioxide and nickel compounds in a steel case(iron). Mn, Fe and Ni are first row transition metals. There are no heavy metals used at all. These things are pretty innocuous considering most other battery chemistries (Pb-H2SO4, NiCd, Hg cell, etc.)

Re:Disposable batteries should be illegal.

[hey!]

Eh?

It used to be that consumer alkaline batteries (AAs etc) hadn mercury, and technically had to be treated as toxic waste. Energizer, Rayovac and Duracell alkalines have been mercury free for almost fifteen years, and are safe to dispose of in the household waste stream. Duracell goes so far as to use non-toxic inks in the printing on the battery.

If you have some battery that was put into a device in China and does not say "Mercury Free", you might have a problem on your hands.

Re:Disposable batteries should be illegal.

[Kohath]

You don't get it. If these batteries aren't toxic, then we can't make ourselves look good by condemning their use.

It's people like you who ruin environmentalism for everyone.

Re:Disposable batteries should be illegal.

[Jason Hood]

I really dont know anyone who disposes of batteries so quickly that it poses a severe environmental problem. I mean, recycling is great and all but most people use rechargeables that I know. I maybe through away 2 batteries total a year. If you want a large scale recycling problem I would think there are other materials that would take precidence.

I dont remember the last time I bought alk batteries (excl lead car batteries which you have to recycle via rebate program)... Its probably been 4 years. Last time I bought a 12 pack of AAs for my tv/dvd remotes and I still have 4 left.

Even the smoke detectors in my house have rechargeables in them now.

Re:Disposable batteries should be illegal.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't get it; rechargeable NiMH batteries, while slightly more expensive to purchase, pay for themselves after like three charges. Why would I want to buy a throw-away battery these days?

Re:Disposable batteries should be illegal.

[Your Pal Dave]

NiMHs have a fairly high self-discharge rate, after a couple of months they need recharging. Alkalines, OTOH have a shelf life of several years now.

I use NiMHs in cameras, music players, radios and such where I would normally have to frequently change batteries. For stuff like remote controls, clocks smoke detectors, emergency flashlights, and some of the kids toys which are infrequently played with I stick with alkalines.

TFA doesn't mention the shelf life of the oxyrides.

There's also Lithium AAs which have a vastly longer shelf life, and they deal better with high current devices like cameras. In TFA the author mentions paying $23 for a pack of 4 Li AAs, but he got ripped off. Target has 'em for $9.99.

Re:Disposable batteries should be illegal.

[QuasiEvil]

Pretty simple why I'd use alkalines over rechargables in some cases, really - three words: self discharge rate. I have a clock - a small LCD job that syncs with WWV/WWVB. It needs batteries about every two years. NiMH loses about 1-2% of its charge daily just sitting there without external load. That means, assuming negligable load from the clock, I wind up changing the damn batteries every few months. That's a pain. So, throw a set of alkalines in there and be good for a couple years.

Same goes with emergency gear, like the flashlights in my cars - all powered by disposable alkaline, so there's a much better chance of them still having charge when I need it.

Re:Disposable batteries should be illegal.

[Anonymous Coward]

Disposable batteries should be illegal, huh? Well, you'd better add to that list fluorescent bulbs (mercury), smoke detectors (radioactive heavy metal), most solder (lead), and integrated circuits (lots of heavy metals, not to mention the PFCs released during production).

Re:Disposable batteries should be illegal.

[vadim_t]

Disposable batteries have their uses. Mainly in TV remotes and such, where batteries easily last a year or more. A rechargeable battery would never pay for itself in that situation.

Now, I'm sure glad I have rechargeable ones for my MP3 player, wireless headphones and laptop.

I wonder why motherboards don't just use a large capacitor instead of a battery, though. While they don't die often, it's often quite annoying to have to get a replacement.

Re:Disposable batteries should be illegal.

[Anonymous Coward]

Aah that will be the day. When the US bans batteries..

Re:Disposable batteries should be illegal.

[Anonymous Coward]

True.. but it still isn't made out of cron- I mean corn.

NOT IMPORTANT

[Anonymous Coward]

Kick yourself in the ass for being incredibly off-topic.

Toxic?

[cplusplus]

Oxyride huh? People still use disposable batteries? I'm a NiMH guy myself. The initial investment in NiMH is greater, but your cost in the long run is far cheaper. Plus, it keeps a lot of batteries from being thrown away.
If these new batteries last longer than alkaline, maybe fewer will be sent to the landfill. I wonder how toxic they are compared to alkaline?

Re:Toxic?

[doppleganger871]

You can get 4 packs of AA NiMH batteries for under $10, and usually find a 1 hour charger and a 4 pack for under $20... that's for the 2200mAH batteries. If you look more, you can probably get nimh's for maybe 1.5 - 2x the price of name brand alkaline AA's. The initial cost isn't that much anymore.

Re:Toxic?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oxygen is very toxic. Even plants and fishs can be killed if they are exposed to too much oxygen. If this oxygen is released to nature, we should expect major disaster as plants and fishes die.

Re:Toxic?

[VAXcat]

Toxic is the least of it...oxygen can cause things to burst into flame! And it is a potent...oxidizer. This stuff is dangerous, and I think it should be banned on airline flights, due to its potential for use by terrorists. And don't get me started on how dangerous its compound with hydrogen is...

Re:Toxic?

[ross.w]

A lot of toys have notices on them warning against the use of rechargeable batteries. I think this is because they only produce 1.2V instead of 1.5, and in some toys that means they behave from fully charged as though the battery is flat or nearly so.

If these batteries put out 1.7 volts and last longer, they could be a good option for use in toys.

NOw all I have to do is teach my six yr old not to attempt to recharge the non-rechargeable batteries...

Re:Toxic?

[xander2032]

I've been NiMH for the past couple years now. It's definitely far more economical than using alkalines! I'm shocked that more people don't realize how cheap rechargeables are!

I gave up on "regular" batteries about 12 years ago. I thought NiCd's were great, but once I went NiMH I was totally blown away! The capacities are just amazing! They last so much longer than NiCd batteries!

I use them in everything I own. Except of course remote controls and also my wireless mouse. Because they're not really suited to those uses. But for my collection of ham radio equipment and my portable receivers, they're just wonderful!

The only thing I use alkalines for is backup. I usually have enough fully charged NiMH AA cells to last about a week. But you never know what might happen eh. So I keep a small reserve of alkalines due to their extended shelf life. But that's all they seem to be useful for.

Re:Toxic?

[srleffler]

NiMH's seem to fade too fast if you're not using them. I use alkalines for most things that don't get used regularly, which is by far the majority of my battery usage. I don't want to have to recharge the battery in every clock and remote control every few weeks. I experimented with rechargeable alkalines for a while, but they're kind of a pain too because if you drain them completely they die.

Re:Toxic?

[cplusplus]

Actually, I use them in everything including remote controls and my wireless mouse. I just make sure I have a few sitting around that have been freshly charged.

Hey Slashdot editors / article posters..

[Xeo 024]

Use this when you link to a NY Times article. It'll provide you with a link in which you don't need to register or log-in to view the article.

Reg-free link to article

Now we have a "batteries" topic?!?

[Otter]

OK, so now we have a topic for batteries. We have a topic for the moon, even though when a story involving the freaking moon or another story involving the freaking moon is posted, no one remembers to use it.

Now can we please get a Gentoo topic? Ubuntu seems like another good choice.

Re:From the previous paragraph

[jeff4747]

Where do I sign up for this class?

Article sans registration

[Paul Neubauer]

NYT Article

Dead wrong

[InfiniteWisdom]

Thanks for your guess, but you're dead wrong. You really don't even have to RTFA. The /. blurb is enough. These are replacements for ALKALINE batteries. They are not rechargable. Really, do people just respond by reading the headline now, and even reading the summary is too much work?

Re:Dead wrong

[ZephyrXero]

Last time I checked, they make rechargable alkalines...or at least used to. (If I'm wrong I'm sure you'll all let me know real quick)

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

No Reg Required Link

[OverlordQ]

Here.

Dont forget the NYT Bookmarklet
(remove newlines)

javascript:(function(){var%20x,t,i,j;t=location.hr ef.replace(/[%]3A/ig,':').replace(/[%]2f/ig,'/');i =t.lastIndexOf('http://');if(i>0){t=t.substring(i) ;j=t.indexOf('&');if(j>0)t=t.substring(0,j)}window .location='http://nytimes.blogspace.com/genlink?q= '+t})();

Still using disposables

[AtariAmarok]

"Oxyride huh? People still use disposable batteries? I'm a NiMH guy myself. The initial investment in NiMH is greater, but your cost in the long run is far cheaper. Plus, it keeps a lot of batteries from being thrown away."

Good long-lasting Lithiums are good as a backup to keep with you if your rechargables all die on you. They are also good if you go somewhere where you just can't find a place to plug in and recharge.

Power

[Lifewish]

The "twice as long" bit was if you allow them to leak power at a constant rate. The "half as long" bit was basically what happens if you short-circuit them.

If these new batteries deliver approx. 4 times as much power when short-circuited then they will use up twice a standard battery's energy in approx. half the time (give or take my complete failure to do the math properly).

Re:Power

[Anonymous Coward]

Your math is fine, but you're still wrong.

Smiley-in-the-moon Syndrome

[Ktistec Machine]

Not enough sleep. I just spent several seconds trying to figure out what the smiley "2!=2^-1" means.

Re:From the previous paragraph

[Anonymous Coward]

As it turns out, the power-boosting effect is no marketing concoction; it's real. In identical flashlights, Oxyrides produce an obviously wider, whiter circle of light than Duracell Ultras. You can immediately tell the difference in portable fans, too, because the Oxyride fan hums at a higher pitch, a musical step higher than the Duracell one. The Oxyrides even make power screwdrivers spin faster: 364 r.p.m., compared with 316 r.p.m. for the Duracell Ultras.

So... these batteries produce out-of-spec voltage (more than 1.5V), and this is supposed to be a GOOD thing? It's too bad the writers of the article weren't smart enought to hook the battery up to a simple multimeter to let us know what's really going on

Why, oh why, oh why...

[Anonymous Coward]

...can't you guys post a NOREG link with your stories!?!?!?

Not all of us WANT to give our personal info to the New York Times!

Re:Why, oh why, oh why...

[the arbiter]

I'd like to introduce you to a little concept called "lying". Come on now, is it really that hard to make up a user name and give them a mailinator address, like I did?

now please pour VC funds into battery research

[js7a]

Frankly, there are a lot of good reasons to believe, from a quick search of the patent literature, that there are still several unexploited leads in the development of batteries.

Why don't we, for example, have modular batteries for electric cars which could be changed by robotic equipment at service stations where they would be recharged underground? That kind of thing would allow us to cut over from oil to renewable (eg., wind, hydro) power without any innovations in actual battery technology.

I like the icon on this story!

Re:now please pour VC funds into battery research

[UnrefinedLayman]

We don't have modular batteries for electric cars with robots that move the batteries underground for recharging because it's a ridiculous idea. No offense, man, but re-read that sentence again. There was an article floating around Fark recently about a man that owns a gas station whose gas pumps can only charge up to $1.99. If there's a guy out there that can't afford to get his pump upgraded to the current price of gas, there is no way he can afford a robot or surplus batteries or the excavation of his property for the underground storage.

Even then, who would pay to charge the batteries? The station owner? The government? The robots?

Wind and hydroelectric power have a very low yield. It is not feasible to imagine that those two energy sources could provide power for the country's cars.

While your fanciful idea sounds great on screen, it leaves out crucial parts of reality. It's a better idea to figure out ways to transition from gas cars than it is to build a nation-wide infrastructure of robots and battery charging plants. By the time such a thing would even be possible to implement, oil would be a memory of the past, and thus we would not necessarily need to move away from gas powered vehicles to robot-powered vehicles.

Re:now please pour VC funds into battery research

[Martin Blank]

The first thing I can think of is potential wear and tear on the car leading to possible damage or decrease in connector efficiency, as well as the complexity of the robotics involved. The robot would, at the least, have to account for dirty or damaged adapters, and batteries would need periodic inspection for damage.

Re:now please pour VC funds into battery research

[letxa2000]

There was an article floating around Fark recently about a man that owns a gas station whose gas pumps can only charge up to $1.99.

Cool, that's where I want to buy gas!

Re:now please pour VC funds into battery research

[mingot]

How about the same idea, just no robots. They could use something similar to today's "full service attendant".

Since you would always be doing a one for one trade on the battery so there would be no net loss in that number to the stations. The attendant could make sure that a battery is in good enough shape for trade and perhaps sell a new (or refurbished) unit when it started looking rough. And you can bet that the cost of having to occaisionally replacing a bum battery will be factored into the price you pay for a "refill".

A model like this solves one of the biggest problems of electric cars (which is not the limited range as much as it is the downtime before you can drive again after you have exhausted the battery) that it should be at least given some consideration.

Re:now please pour VC funds into battery research

[thogard]

The problem is that a car needs several hundreds of pounds of batteries if they are lead acid or several tens of thousands of dollars worth of other batteries that have a limited life span. Any system that replaces batteries will need to change several at once and then what do you do with the people that only want to change a few at a time to save some money? That results in a bad mix of battery efficiencies and that leads to many other complications.

Re:now please pour VC funds into battery research

[Martin Blank]

Possible, though I can imagine some busy stations right now that would have to hire a lot more people to handle this. Some of the larger stations that manage to stay a nickel or so per gallon cheaper can have lines right up to -- and sometimes on -- the streets. I've occasionally seen 20 or more vehicles either fueling or waiting to be fueled. It's possible that in switching out the batteries, there would be less time per vehicle, but it could still get rapidly backed up.

In addition, the batteries are extremely heavy, and so would still require mechanical assistance. Then again, this has the advantage of more rapid recycling of batteries, and possibly cycling in newer, more efficient battery technologies that would reduce weight and/or energy consumption while maintaining the same connectors.

It's not an instant kill for the idea, but there are still some hard things to work out.

Re:now please pour VC funds into battery research

[drix]

Uhm, no, the time to pour money into battery research was about two centuries years ago. Do you know who invented the battery? This guy. Look at how old he is. Were he alive today, our batteries would be instantly recognizable to him. For all their new oxides and ions, the simple truth is that batteries are the same expensive, bulky, heavy, short-lived, inefficient and environmentally unfriendly means energy portability they always were. Spend your research money on fuel cells, an affordable hydrogen distribution network, whatever--just please stop beating the dead horse that is battery power.

Re:now please pour VC funds into battery research

[js7a]

Even then, who would pay to charge the batteries?

The customers, of course.

Wind and hydroelectric power have a very low yield

The U.S. could satisfy 90% of its electrical demand with wind turbines on 3% of our farmland. We would have to triple the capacity of our electric grid, but it's a small price to pay for all that coal and natural gas that our kids are going to need for plastics.

I am, of course, that the government should help out, because it is in their interest. Think of all the money they could save on oil wars.

Re:now please pour VC funds into battery research

[Pravada]

The U.S. could satisfy 90% of its electrical demand with wind turbines on 3% of our farmland

There are about 371 million acres of farmland in the US. 3% of that is about 17,000 square miles.

Sure! Sounds easy! Let's cover an area the size of Vermont and New Hampshire combined with wind farms. That's *really* cheap.

Re:now please pour VC funds into battery research

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's cover ... Vermont and New Hampshire ... with wind farms.

Sounds good to me. What's not to like? And you get electricty too? A bonus!

Re:now please pour VC funds into battery research

[Detritus]

The last time this happened (99 cents), they modified the old pumps to charge by the liter. No bargains for you!

Re:now please pour VC funds into battery research

[Flendon]

It sounds great, but who is really in charge of checking the batteries before they get recharged? The attendant could be some kid who I wouldn't trust to check my oil or pump my gas. Now you want me to trust him with my battery which could leak and damage my car? I would rather him pump the gas, worst he could do with that is spill some on the paint (I wouldn't let him ear the car if he had a lit cigarette so don't go there). With the managers I've seen at alot of stations the last few years I would rather trust the stoned kid to check it. It isn't a bad concept, but the human factor truely kills it, as it does most good ideas these days.

By the way where do you live that still has today's "full service attendant"? I haven't seen full service in years.

Re:now please pour VC funds into battery research

[tom17]

Well I assume that if such a system became widespread, it should be fairly foolproof.

Rather than having huge heavy droppable battery units that would be in various states of charge, how about multiple smaller units that could be swapped out. Each battery-unit could have self checking of condition with an easy to read display.
The charging stations could condition and recharge each cell easily and identify duff cells for manufacturer replacement.

Scenario1: With OneBigBattery(tm)
You have a long drive to do and you need a full battery for it, but you only have half a charge left... you pull into the next Duracell station and ask for a full battery.. The people/machines heave out your old battery even though its half full and put it on the conveyor mechanism that takes it to its charging station while giving you a fresh full battery that gets heaved back into your car, denting the paintwork on the way cos a guy slipped while holding the over-heavy battery.

Congrats! you have just bought half a battery's worth of power for the price of a full battery. OK, maybe they can refund you based on the remaining charge in the old battery, but they would really need to discharge it (re-using the power I hope) to know how much you had left. Maybe they could credit your account for next time. The station would maybe have to do a full discharge/recharge or other stuff to check and maintain the battery's condition.

You have no option of carrying a spare battery, they are too big...

Scenario2: With TenSmallBatteries(tm)
You have a long drive to do and you need a full battery for it, but you only have half a charge left... you pull into the next Duracell station and ask for a top up. The guy (or you!) opens the battery access panel and sees 5 clean simple modular units with green lights on and 4 with red on. One in the middle has amber. You whip out the ones with red lights - they are heavy, but no worse than say a full spare fuel can*. You pop the dead ones with red ligfhts into the machine next to you and it gives you back a charged one with a green light on. Repeat for the remaining red ones.

If you like, you can swap out the amber one too that is only partially charged, I think they might be able to credit you like in scenario 1. These smaller cells will be cheaper to replace in the event of faulty manufacturing (1 cell goes, replace it, rather than replacing the WHOLE bank of cells). These cells will be easier to discharge, condition, check condition of, recharge, handle etc.

You can keep a spare or two in your boot (trunk) as they are not prohibitively huge.

I dunno.. I think a lot of the ptroblems being banded about are easily overcome.. i have not paid any detail to quantities and sizes of cells in my little scenarios, just giving a basic idea.. There would be a *lot* of groundwork.. setting up the cars and setting up the stations, but I think technically and people wise, it would be entirely do-able...

Re:now please pour VC funds into battery research

[salec]

Why not take it to the extreme: make "nanobateries" which align themself properly in a forcefield (magnetic or electrostatic), then pour nonconducting liquid suspension full of them into the tank, like a fuel, let a pump bring them into "juice sucker" device (instead of carburator) which aligns and discharges them at needed rate (Power = Energy / Time) and then another tank collects used ones? Oh, wait... *ducks*

Re:now please pour VC funds into battery research

[Flendon]

IIRC in your second example each of the 10 batteries would drain at an equal rate. I could be wrong on that. I'm sure someone could come up with a way to only use one battery at a time as well with near instintanious switching from one cell to the next even at highway speeds. The rapid automatic switching between each of the 10 cells would be very important. Even with widespread use though I would hate to pull into a service station in some hole in the water town to get my batteries changed.

I think the self monitoring batteries would have to be perfected and shown to be tamper proof before most would be comftorable. It does seem to be more effeciant than recharging. I still see it taking along time to become commonplace. How would you feel if you pulled into a gas station and they tried to pull your old gastank out of your car and put a full one in from who knows where? Thats how the early adopters of this would feel.

Re:now please pour VC funds into battery research

[tom17]

Yeah sorry, I forgot to mention that you would need a system that would discharge only one at a time, with a smooth transition between them. I had thought of that. However, I had not thought of this.. having one small cell delivering the power at any given time will be harder to do as the loading on the cells would be higher than if the load was spread between all of them. Maybe that wont be a prob, maybe it will. And yeah I would definately be one of the slow takers for something like this.. I wouldnt trust the system for some time...

uh..

[nilbog]

They last twice as long but they run down quicker? Do lasting twice as long mean they have a longer shelf life?

Parent post is insightful

[SageMadHatter]

Why not say:
Your battery-operated tooth brush will over-stress its plastic gears.
Flashlights burn out quicker.
Camera flashes let you take more bad family photos quicker than before.
And because you're now using the latest technology, you will even imagine that your portable music player sounds richer than ever.

These new batteries produce 1.7 volts, instead of 1.5 volts. This is not necessarly a good thing though. If you read the battery requirements for numerous devices, they state specifically what kind you should be installing in your electronic device. For example, my cordless mouse states 1.5v AA batteries. Now inserting these new Panasonic 1.7v AA batteries, is probably not going to kill it outright, but it is pumping more current in my mouse than what the engineers at Logitech designed it for. The additional current produced from the 1.7v AA battery will cause the mouse to fail, sooner rather than later. This applies to all other electronic devices, as the parent post pointed out (i.e. flashlights burning faster / toobrush plastic gears been over-stressed).

Longer lasting batteries are a good thing. Batteries that break standards are not.

Re:Parent post is insightful

[Anonymous Coward]

Longer lasting batteries are a good thing. Batteries that break standards are not.

Most AA batteries range from 1.2V to 1.6V, with the lower voltages from the rechargable NiMH and NiCD types. The electronics these are used in generally specify 1.5 V, but most electronics will handle +10% (1.65V) ok. Now that 1.7V is a bit above this range, that will definitely shorten the lifespan of electronics. In fact for something like a small flashlight using 2 cells it will likely shorten the life of a 3.0V incadescent bulb considerably. That's 3.4 V across the bulb, not 3.0V. Sure it will be brighter, and unregulated motors will run faster, but they'll die quicker as well.

Since the voltage of this type of cell differs enough from standard cells, Panasonic should have used new cell dimensions for these batteries. That way consumers wouldn't put these batteries in devices that weren't built for them.

"Rundown" test *is* a real-world scenario.

[Rick Genter]

They have a shorter life in a "rundown test" where you put the batteries in and leave the power on until they're drained. In real-world scenarios (like how many digital pictures you can take) they do really well.

Another real-world scenario is using AAs in your Belkin Backup Battery Pack for iPod w/Dock Connector (who comes up with these names?), which is pretty much the "leave the power on until they're drained" scenario if your on an all-day hike or an intercontinental flight.

Journalist can't do math

[twistedcubic]

Note the image of the batteries says "50% longer lasting" but the journalist says "twice as long". His digital camera test actually confirms the 50% longer, for 844/566 = 1.49.

Re:From the previous paragraph

[MindStalker]

Apparently they provide a most constant 1.5V as regular batteries wobble between 1.4V and 1.5V this constant power can be enough to get the extra RPMs.

Posting anon for the usual reasons...

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem is, most "normal size" vibrators use C-cell batteries (I am forever searching for a D-cell size - they don't seem to exist) - not AA or AAA, with the exception of the "slim" vibes (and certain "egg" vibrators with the batteries in a controller). Also, most normal vibrators don't use voltage-regulators, just a normal "potentiometer"-style rheostat in the cap, or in a controller (with the exception, once again, of certain multi-pattern controller vibrators, typically for G-spot arousal).

I wish they would come out with these batteries in C and D sizes, but not for vibrators - for the larger Mag-Lite flashlights they would be excellent!

Finally - I think I know waaaay too much about vibrators...

Re:Posting anon for the usual reasons...

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem is, most "normal size" vibrators use C-cell batteries [...] not AA or AAA

What decade are you living in? Back in the 1970s or 1980s they all used C cells, but most modern vibrators made by the name brands (California Exotics, Doc Johnson, Fun Factory, etc.) use AA cells.

Re:Posting anon for the usual reasons...

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever noticed that nothing except vibrators use C cells?

Batteries on the march

[Anonymous Coward]

There's been a ton of research into batteries for laptops and portable gizmos, of course, but it's nothing like what we'll see as the world figures out that it's time to get serious about all-electric and hybrid cars. Spinning a HD and lighting up an LCD is child's play compared to propelling a car, a bunch of groceries, and your fat butt down the road.

The Cost of Energy

Oxyhydroxide?

[Sensible Clod]

Isn't that the same as Dihydrogen Monoxide?

Re:Oxyhydroxide?

[fr2asbury]

Looks more like Hydrogen Dioxide. If such a thing were possible.

Alkaline versus NiMH

[lelitsch]

Is there actually any way to compare the life times of alkaline batteries with NiMHs? Short of buying both and running them in the same appliance, that is. So, for example, what is going to last longer in a digital camera or a flash light, a Duracell copper head, or a 2100mAh NiMH AA?

Re:Alkaline versus NiMH

[ctid]

Presumably, you didn't read the article. It answers these questions.

Re:Alkaline versus NiMH

[lelitsch]

I know it's almost unheard of, but I did RTA. The only mention of NiMHs is "You can recharge NiMH batteries hundreds of times, and each charge lasts longer than Oxyride or any sort of alkaline."

It doesn't say by how much, and it only covers digital cameras. For those, NiMHs are pretty much a no brainer unless you leave the batteries in the camera for months. But high drain or constant drain devices might act differently.

And I don't know how much I trust the author--the article also claims that NiMHs aren't widely available. Heck, every BestBuy, Meijers, CircuitCity and even my local Walmart carries them. They just happen to be in the photo section, not in the big box at the checkout.

Re:Alkaline versus NiMH

[ctid]

I read some comparative figures on page two of the article.

Re:acne

[Phil246]

if i had mod points i`d have modded this funny :)

Hmm, rechargables non rechargables

[hattig]

I'm still using some 5 year old batteries that came with an Olympus digital camera. I must have recharged them hundreds of times, and although the battery life is lower than it used to be (to be expected) I'm sure that they work out quite cheap by now! I do need to find some decent replacements in the UK for a good price however, some of these 2300mh ones mentioned elsewhere in the comments... I did get 6 1400mh rechargables with a wireless keyboard and mouse I bought though.

So it is nice that these batteries exist, so that if I have need of decent batteries and I have no access to charged batteries I know I'll be getting decent batteries at least.

I wonder how they act in bonfires...

batteries can't cut it anymore

[grqb]

The improvement in battery technology is pretty slow compared to the technologies that need those batteries. Really the next power supply for small electronics will probably be micro fuel cells that are fueled with methanol. Since batteries are basically the same thing as fuel cells, any advancement in battery technology (like the Li-Ion electrode materials advancement) will also be available to fuel cells, but the fuel cell has the advantage of instantaneous refill.

I guess there's always the problem of where to get that damn methanol from though...

Their Marketroid speak is even better...

[Moryath]

Oxyride(TM) Extreme Power is the next generation of batteries--with two major breakthroughs in innovative new materials and advanced manufacturing technology. ...

This added power gives you quicker shooting for your digital photos, faster flash recovery, faster battery powered toys and brighter flashlights.

Ok, so let's take a look at those claims:

(A) quicker shooting for your digital photos
--> Well, no. Your digital camera's CCD and processor don't run any quicker on a high battery charge than on a low one.

(B) faster flash recovery
--> Actually, yes, this will; the more current the battery can deliver, the quicker the capacitors will charge up.

(C) faster battery powered toys
--> Depends on how the toy works. If it's an unregulated device that just pulls current directly, sure - but you could get the same results just hot-wiring an extra AA into the circuit.

True story: I used to have an old R/C car that ran on 8 AA batteries. I "fixed" that by hacking into the wiring and adding batteries to the circuit with a separate, modular battery bay from an electronics kit my parents gave me a few years earlier. I took it all the way up to 16 batteries total; at that point, it worked for about 1/2 hour and gave me great speed until something in the control board decided it had had enough.

If on the other hand it uses any sort of a voltage or current regulation system, no, it won't move any faster.

(D) brighter flashlights
Well, sure. See the above on devices that pull what essentially is unregulated current, relying only on the natural resistance of the device to keep it at a reasonable pace. I=V/R; Put in more Volts, even marginally, get more Amps and thus a brighter bulb. Whether it's enough to be really noticeable... well, you can tell the difference between a new and used battery, so sure, I'll assume that you can.

Of course, you'll also cause the bulb to burn out quicker.

Re:Their Marketroid speak is even better...

[Anonymous Coward]

On my Fuji Finepix 4700 camera, 2 NiMH at 1.6Ahr can last about 70+ pictures. I bought some new higher capacity NiMH battery for a buck a piece.

I have tried alkaline and they lasted about 4-6 shoots before they die. These are brand name stuff.

The camera draws about 1A of current (LCD+backlight etc not including flash) which the regular battery have a really hard time supplying without getting hot as they have much higher internal resistant than recharables.

For much lower current applications, the regular battery is great for shelf life.

Re:Their Marketroid speak is even better...

[Lord Kano]

A. Could be accurate IF they're referring to B. when they say "quicker", meaning if you can recharge the capacitors faster then you could claim quicker shooting for a digicam.

For C, I'm in complete agreement.

For D, I kind of agree with you. If running the bulb hotter means that you'll quicken the pace that oxygen creeps into the bulb, sure it'll burn out quicker. But that's not just a function of the increased voltage.

LK

Re:Their Marketroid speak is even better...

[babyrat]

(A) quicker shooting for your digital photos

(B) faster flash recovery
--> Actually, yes, this will; the more current the battery can deliver, the quicker the capacitors will charge up.

Thus A is also true if you are waiting for the flash to recover before taking the next shot.

(C) faster battery powered toys
If on the other hand it uses any sort of a voltage or current regulation system, no, it won't move any faster.

Even if they use a voltage regulator, they will move at the same speed for longer, thus being 'faster' after the older batteries begin to wear down (just like on the energizer bunny commercials)

(D) brighter flashlights
Of course, you'll also cause the bulb to burn out quicker.

I either lose the flashlight or break the bulb long before the batteries die.

Re:Their Marketroid speak is even better...

[ixj]

I believe the reason that many of these things are true was because the batteries put out a slightly higher voltage.

"To be precise, they deliver 1.7 volts, which is 13 percent more juice than the 1.5 volts of alkalines. (In both cases, the voltage diminishes as the batteries empty.)"

At a higher voltage, normal resistors found in RC devices, flash bulbs, and flashlights charge faster and burn brighter. And since power is proportional to the sqare of the voltage, more power is consumed.

Re:Their Marketroid speak is even better...

[Breetai]

Alkaline batteries can't supply much current and loose their voltage quite fast. Most camera manufacturers don't recommend alkaline abtteries for their camera buth rechargable NimH batteries.

However, they put 2 alkaline batteries in the package with the camera to get you started. These run out much too fast and everybody thinks that the camera is crap. While only the batteries suck.

Alkaline batteries work excellent for flashlights (mag lite, etc) and remote controls.

Panasonic's favicon

[praseodym]

Why the heck is panasonic having an IE logo as favicon?

Don't use rechargeables in smoke detectors

[Rommel]

Please don't use a rechargeable battery in a smoke detector. They can run out of power in an unexpectedly short period of time, possibly so abruptly that you don't get the typical warning beeps. A 5 second Google search will confirm this.

Here's a link to one fire department that confirms this.

Re:Don't use rechargeables in smoke detectors

[Jason Hood]

Well these recharge on the fly in the detector itself. I supposedly only need to change them every 7 years or something. Normally the detectors run on AC, the battery is a just backup in the event the AC goes offline.

Re:Don't use rechargeables in smoke detectors

[jridley]

Unless you have an unusual detector, it doesn't charge the batteries. This may be even worse depending on the design; if it doesn't monitor battery voltage while running from AC, when it tries to switch the battery may already be stone dead. But I think most AC detectors do chirp when the battery gets low.

Re:Hmm, rechargables non rechargables

[StuffJustHappens]

2300mAh at a reasonable price = ASDA Supermarket, or open an account with CPC http://www.cpc.co.uk/ (if you can put yourself down as a business). Woolworth seem to be clearing out batteries at knock down prices too, although my local one is down to multi-packs of their own-brand alkalines albeit at under half price.

thats why i buy two sets and keep one in the charg

[hildi]

in the charger. the sooner americans realize there are ways to save energy/toxic-waste by doing stuff like that , the better

NiMH

[hildi]

sorry, i have 2 sets of NiMH AAs that i use in my digital camera. i have had them for probably 2-3 years. i keep one set in the charger, and one in the camera. havent had to buy batteries in a long time, and dont plan to. the toxic waste in batteries is just... not cool. especially when they are alternatives that cost lest money and are only slightly inconvient, the inconvenience being you have to actually clear off a spot in your rat hole of a room to keep a charger plugged in.

Re:NiMH

[/dev/trash]

I throw all my used batteries in the garbage. Is that wrong? http://www.energizer.com/products/faq.asp?q=3%233

Re:New York Times Accounts

[Anonymous Coward]

put quotes around the article and attribute the source :)

So, basically...

[Anonymous Coward]

Where are the heavy metals? I see graphite (carbon) manganese dioxide and nickel compounds in a steel case(iron). Mn, Fe and Ni are first row transition metals.

So basically, they eventually degrade back into dirt.

Bunny

[Gax]

I'm the energiser bunny, you insensitive clod!

Re:Bunny

[rogerzilla]

Which shows how ineffective advertising is. It's the Duracell bunny.

No, wrong.

[Anonymous Coward]

Parent has obviously never looked at a discharge curve for either NiMH or Alkaline batteries, otherwise he'd know that the 1.5V vs 1.2V is absolute bullshit; neither stays above 1.2V for more than about 5% of its life under any real load. See for the specs on an Energizer e91 (2850 mAh, Alkaline) vs here for specifications on a 2300 mAh Energizer NiMH rechargable. Furthermore, NiMH capacities are up to Alkaline capacities these days, without the obnoxious strain alkalines have under high drain (like say running a digital camera, Alkalines typically die after a tenth of what a high capacity NiMH will do, simply due to how Alkalines react to a high current). That is plainly visible in the above, at 0.1C, the NiMH outperforms the Alkaline by 90 minutes of discharge, and the difference only gets bigger from there on out. Please note that the NiMH is 550 mAh smaller than the Alkaline, yet is outperforming it by 15%.

The only good use for Alkalines is in very, very low discharge devices like remote controls. NiMH batteries have a steady self-discharge, which means that in a remote, NiMHs might only last 1/3rd the time as an alkaline, due to the NiMH discharging itself.

That's pretty easy, actually

[mbessey]

"Is there actually any way to compare the life times of alkaline batteries with NiMHs?"

Sure. NiMH batteries will be dead in about a month or so from self-discharge. If the battery is to be used in an application where the current draw is low enough for that to be the dominant factor, then use non-rechargeable lithium batteries (or alkaline, if lithium cells aren't available in that size). Otherwise, use NiMH.

If you're not sure what the current draw of a particular application is, buy some cheap alkalines and put them in. If you still remember why you were doing the test when they go dead, replace them with rechargeable NiMHs. If you just look at them and think "why the hell did I put cheap alkaline batteries in here?", replace them with non-rechargeable lithium cells.

I am not aware of ANY applications for which alkaline batteries are the best technology - unless someone else is paying for the batteries, of course, which is why cheap alkalines are what comes with your $2.00 flashlight.

-Mark

Re:thats why i buy two sets and keep one in the ch

[Waffle Iron]

the sooner americans realize there are ways to save energy/toxic-waste by doing stuff like that , the better

Let's say your trickle-charger uses 5W of AC power at all times. That's 43 KWH/year, which would take the equivalent of around 5 gallons of oil to produce. Who knows? That might be worse for the environment than tossing a couple of sets of AA batteries.

More General Solution

[Skeezix]

bugmenot and its Firefox Extension. From their FAQ:

BugMeNot.com was created as a mechanism to quickly bypass the login of web sites that require compulsory registration and/or the collection of personal/demographic information (such as the New York Times).

It's one of my favourite Firefox extensions.

claim: "But NiMHs aren't widely available"

[bani]

"But NiMHs aren't widely available in stores", claims Mr. Pogue.

I call BS. I can go to the local wal=mart or other store and find literally walls of NiMH batteries and chargers.

Re:claim: "But NiMHs aren't widely available"

[StikyPad]

I call BS on people who call BS on people.

Just because your local RedneckMart has tons of the things doesn't mean they're widely available. It means they're locally available. That's the difference between locally and widely: One applies to you, the other applies to lots of people. Next week we'll cover sparsely and intermittantly.

Where's the -1, Deformative mod when you need it?

Re:claim: "But NiMHs aren't widely available"

[Anonymous Coward]

"Where's the -1, Deformative mod when you need it?"

Calling him on factuality I'm fine with, but making fun of deformities? It's not his fault he was born that way, you insensitive clod!

Re:thats why i buy two sets and keep one in the ch

[NeoSkandranon]

Good point... I'd wonder though, if 5 gallons of oil has more or less hazardous stuff in it than the mfr process for alkaline batteries

Twice as long or shorter life?

[Anonymous Coward]

Since when is "twice as long" = "shorter life" ?

Which is it?

Yes they can.

[Moderation abuser]

Battery technologies have been arriving at a faster and faster rate.

Lead acid - centuries.
NiCd - couple of hundred years
NiMH - Decades
Li-ion - Just about a decade now.
Next generation - Probably Li-S in a year or two.

Technologies inevitably arrive slower than demand. Fact of life. Demand says "Hey I need X" and someone goes away and makes X.

"Really the next power supply for small electronics will probably be micro fuel cells that are fueled with methanol."

Bet they won't. When you run out of methanol you can't just plug it into the mains and make more, you have to lug a bottle of the stuff around with you.

"any advancement in battery technology any (like the Li-Ion electrode materials advancement) will also be available to fuel cells".

Except that's fairly unlikely. You're talking about applying engineering solutions from one technology to another. Sure, they have a way of depositing Li to provide a very high surface area in a li-ion battery. Does that same technique apply to platinum in a fuel cell?

any one else remember?

[Brad1138]

About 20-25 years ago I remember seeing a demonstration of a full size car moving slowly around a circle. The man giving the demonstration said the power source was about the size of a 9V battery. He also claimed it would run forever and that the technology could be scaled up to move full size cars at highway speeds. I never saw any follow up on it but have always wondered what happened to him and his invention.

There must be some /.er out there that saw the same thing, I know I didn't dream it.

Re:any one else remember?

[mooniejohnson]

He was killed by the oil industry. Take THAT, free power!

Re:any one else remember?

[boldra]

Maybe it was the size of a 9v battery, but did they claim it was a battery? That size could contain about 20ml of fuel (kerosene for example), and it wouldn't be too difficult to adapt a tiny combustion engine to move a full-size car in a circle. If the container was a chemical fuel that was burnt to produce the effect, the size-to-power ratio isn't that impressive. I didn't see the show.

Yeah, I measured the power usage...

[Anonymous Coward]

For my weather station.

It uses very little power, but the AC adapter for it is incredibly inefficient.

It's actually cheaper for me to run it off C batteries than it is to run it off wall power. And given that those C batteries include shipping, retail markup, etc, I have to imagine it is better for the environment too.

Power Spice!

[catdevnull]

I'm sure Emma Bunton will be very pleased.

Re:From the previous paragraph

[Rorschach1]

Speaking as someone who once had to wire up a busted vibrator to a benchtop supply (insert jokes about /.'ers and made-up girlfriends here), I'd say that yes, additional voltage DOES seem to have an effect.

Not so much as removing the little motor assembly from the silicone sleeve, though. She wouldn't let me put it back together.

Battery life?

[Anonymous Coward]

"They last twice as long as premium alkaline batteries[....] They have a shorter life in a "rundown test" where you put the batteries in and leave the power on until they're drained."

So they last twice as long, but they have a shorter life? Does that mean that they last twice as long on the shelf, but they can deliver less total energy? Can someone please translate this marketing-speak for me?

Re:Battery life?

[Anonymous Coward]

This could mean what you suggested, or it could mean that they store twice as much power (eg. 2100Mah) but discharge it faster than conventional batteries.

my RC car uses a lithium polymer 7.4V 2200mAh Pack, and that drives it faster than an 8.4V 1300mAh 8 cell NimH pack. It drives it for roughly 1.5 times as long, too.

The same principle could be applied to these new batteries; they make the car go faster, but for less time.

Re:SHIT! - IMPORTANT

[Anonymous Coward]

I heard he's being buried next to Stephen King.

It's the environment, stupid

[initialE]

Why hasn't anyone said anything about the environmental effects of using these widescale?

Re:It's the environment, stupid

[Detritus]

The batteries are made from baby seals, a renewable energy source.

Flashlight bulb life 1/7th

[morcheeba]

The article said that the battery produces 1.7 volts instead of the typical 1.5 volts. Flashlights were noticeably brighter, but they didn't measure the change in bulb life. Bulb Life is inversely proportional to V^16 -- that's a huge exponent, so bulbs are very sensitive to voltage! This means bulbs in flashlights with the new batteries will last only 1/7th the time or regular batteries.

Argumentative twit

[leonbrooks]

"Rundown" imples at full bore. None of the low-current devices do that, ergo the newer battery type will last longer in them.

If you were to switch the torch on and leave it on until it died then the new type of battery would lose.

My digital answering machine (the whole 'phone system, actually) uses batteries in the base-station to remember stuff like messages and last-dialled numbers when the power goes away. You can pull the batteries while the mains is on and it doesn't forget - you need to both unplug it and unload the batteries to give it amnesia. The handsets are all rechargeable.

haha

[Anonymous Coward]

looks to me like a cheeky kid with a sloped forhead, huge nose, and a 'mini-me' of him standing on his head. ;)

Which is quite ridiculous...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you had ever used a multimiter, you would know that "1.5 V" batteries will produce about 1.7-1.8 V when new, decreasing to about 1.3 or 1.4 V when they're pretty well dead. And this is for regular alkaline batteries.

Try it sometime.

Re:claim: "But NiMHs aren't widely available

[Anonymous Coward]

You fucking fail.

Next week we'll cover correct spelling. "intermittantly" my ass.

Where's the -666, Fucktard mod when you need it?

Re:thats why i buy two sets and keep one in the ch

[ltbarcly]

Let's say your fridge uses 1 billion watts of AC power at all times. That's (shitload) of power would take (ocean) of oil to produce. Who knows? That might be worse for the environment than running your own personal hog farm so you can have bacon.

If your trickle charger is using 5W it is broke as fuck.

Re:thats why i buy two sets and keep one in the ch

[Waffle Iron]

If your trickle charger is using 5W it is broke as fuck.

Most wall-warts waste a couple of watts at all times; that's why they're warm. Some more power is wasted in the actual trickle charge current, that's why batteries in a charger are usually warm. 5W is not an outlandish value.

Damage possible due to 1.7v output?

[Madoc Owain]

Another poster in this thread mentioned these batteries were not standard 1.5v but were actually 1.7v. I know engineers build in a percentage of tolerance to allow for slightly out-of-spec parts but this is greater than 10% for only 1 battery. What about electronic devices that use several AAs in series? Won't the voltage get too far out of spec in that instance and cause the device to misbehave or even stop working?

Re:thats why i buy two sets and keep one in the ch

[ltbarcly]

I would guess that most trickle chargers use about 500mA - 1A at the high end.

I suppose your numbers aren't so silly as I had made them out to be. Of course, that is due to the innefficency of the wall wart.

What I think is silly is the idea that rechargable batteries might be less efficient than toss aways. Even with the energy wasted at the 5W * 1 year level, it isn't nearly as bad as the energy used in the production of the batteries.

First you have to consider that if you completely switched to rechargable batteries, you aren't charging the same batteries all the time. You might have 1 set in the charger for ready use, but every now and again you'll switch them for a set that is completely dead. So you are likely to have at a minimum 2x the capacity of your charger in batteries, but this could really go as high as 10x if you use alot of batteries and have a 1 hour charger, say.

Now, the energy use is basically constant due to the wall wart pulling roughly the same load regardless of the activity of the charger. So, if you use about 3x the number of batteries in the charger, and it holds 4, then you have 12 batteries going. Let's say you use your digital camera alot, just to make things easy. You might go through 12 batteries in two weeks of moderate use. 12 * 26 = 312. 312 batteries saved.

This would cost at least $10/20 * 312 = $156, which isn't the issue, but is interesting.

I'm fairly sure 312 batteries would take more than 5 gallons of oil to produce and deliver. (YOU might use 5 gallons of GAS just going to the store to get them. You would have to drive about 5 * 30 = 120 miles, and if you live 15 miles from the costco where you can get them at a reasonable price, you would have to make 120/(15 * 2) = 4 trips all year)

Doesn't anyone read the article anymore?

[QuietLagoon]

2 volts is not going to make a difference. Anything with "complex electronic chips" is likely going to be voltage-regulated anyway, even if it's just with a Zener.

Doesn't anyone read the article anymore? Among the items tested were non-electronic flashlight and fan, neither of which would have a voltage regulator in it (zener diode or otherwise).

Re:thats why i buy two sets and keep one in the ch

[Waffle Iron]

My original post said that rechargeable batteries don't make sense for infrequently used devices (I forgot to also include low-drain devices like smoke detectors).

Of course if you're using 312 batteries per year in one device, then rechargeable batteries are the way to go.

I only use a couple of dozen AA batteries per year, most of them in low-drain applications. If you set them down next to a 5-gallon jug of gasoline (or more realisticly, an 80-pound pile of coal), it's not obvious to me that the batteries are worse. (I can't recall ever making a trip to the store just to get batteries. You can always borrow them from some other device in a pinch until your next general shopping trip.)

On top of that, using rechargeables in low-drain devices would involve swapping and recharging them several times per year. This will tend to wear them out; I've never seen rechargeables that live up to their claimed lifetimes. So you would have to factor in consuming some number of rechargeable batteries per year as well.

how much did it take to make and recycle the alks

[hildi]

set them down next to that, then ill believe you and i have no idea what my trickle charger takes as energy, but let me assure you, your fancy 3d card running quake computer far outstrips my 50 watt mini-itx computer, so i make up for it.