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Global DNA Project to Study Human Ancestry
Steve writes "The National Geographic Society and IBM are teaming up to map the history of human migration using DNA. The Genographic Project aims to collect 100,000 genetic samples which will be used trace the movements of humans out of Africa and around the globe. While the most useful samples will come from indiginous populations, members of the general public will be able to mail in their own DNA on special cheek swabs."
...till we make the Kwisatz Haderach?
I can see it now, spit in an envelope and sending it to DNA department.
PS. No horking big lugies.
ogg
Black cat, searing pain, flames...? I must be in Heaven! - Homer Simpson
What's the matter, you dont like Jenna Jamison?
love is just extroverted narcissism
I assume that IBM will have a droll-prof mail box....
This is really just an attempt by IBM to prepare a defense against SCO that shows that Wookiees do not, in fact, come from Endor.
Because we all know how EVIL National Geographic is!
Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
if they accecpt other swabbing techniques? The "other" dna sources would probably get a huge male bias to the data though.
Cliff Claven
K.E.G. Party Chairman
Founding Leader of: Koncerned for Egalitarin Governance
Every time someone uses their hands to touch an envelope or their tongue to seal it, they are probably leaving trace amounts of *gasp* DNA on the envelope. OH NO! There's probably DNA floating around EVERYWHERE by now!
And what if they sneezed a little virus particle onto the letter that they wrote to you!?
-- Thou hast strayed far from the path of the Avatar.
If OA's regions flat-out contradict NG's, then one or both sets of data must be wrong. A fatal flaw exists in an assumption that has been made. Which would be valuable to know, from a scientific standpoint, even if it would hurt sales.
If the two agree, it isn't proof that they are accurate, but provided the work was independently carried out, it raises the chances that they really are onto something.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
While the most useful samples will come from indiginous populations, members of the general public will be able to mail in their own DNA on special cheek swabs. for only $100.00 plus ship/handling"
--
http://unk1911.blogspot.com
This sounds like a really good idea. People who volunteer even get an anonymous password to the website to see how their ancestors migrated to their current location. Too bad they will be testing only indigenous peoples. European-based mutts such as myself don't get to participate.
Free MacMini
These cheek swabs are not oral! You have been warned.
Forget all the "big brother" comments.
There have been some studies of human DNA and these have often produced very interesting results, showing accurately how people migrated across the globe.
The problem up to now is that these have been relatively small studies confined to specific issues - such as the colonisation of the Pacific islands, which happened from Indonesia, not South America (sorry, Thor).
A large-scale analysis of human DNA that includes Africa - the richest mix of DNA by far - will be very, very interesting.
For example, there are theories that modern Africans are largely descended from relatively recent immigrants from the Indian Ocean basin who recolonised from the East coast and mixed with aboriginal Africans - such as the Khoi and San - eventually pushing these into the margins.
Good stuff.
Sig for sale or rent. One previous user. Inquire within.
The African exodus I think is pretty well understood. Although, there seems to have been multiple exodi (?) of hominid species that did not survive in the long term (such as the Neanderthal in Europe).
From what I understand, the story gets harder to piece together in the last part of the European migrations from Central Asia.
A couple of interesting TV shows on this were The Real Eve (which does the mitochondrial trace through maternal ancestral lines), and Journey of Man, which relates to the more difficult task of tracing mutations in the Y chromosome handed done through paternal lines.
One of the earlier pioneers in the field, Brian Sykes of Oxford, started up a side business where you can send swabs to obtain information about maternal and paternal markers in your genetic makeup (IIRC, about US$225).
A few years ago I got the analysis done and sent the results back to Ma 'n Pa for Mother's Day and Father's Day gifts.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
I'd like too see their reaction if someone sent them the DNA of a chimpanzee... Given the similarity between the two DNAs, it might take them them a while to figure that one out...
I would do this, but their is a low limit to how much I would pay for it. It seems like the use is going to be pure population biology and I happen to like population biology.
"While the most useful samples will come from indiginous populations, members of the general public will be able to mail in their own DNA on special cheek swabs."
So, they want people who immigrated a long time ago, and are not really interested in newer immigration? Because ancestrial migration doesn't count unless your the first to get there? This makes absolutly no sense what so ever.
...when it turned out your paternal line came from the mailman? ;)
Let's cast asside the paranoia for a moment and glance at the liklihood that they will be able to build some amount of evidence to prove what they are setting out to prove. The world has become much smaller in the last couple of hundred years. People are less often living in their ancestoral regions and it's becoming more and more obfustated by the second.
And I suppose we should pretty much exclude all but "native americans" from any studies related to the new world. (The Americas) I think this study will just turn out to be a colossal waste of time and money. Who is paying for this?
> I truly do not understand it, can somebody explain?
So you are trying to keep all of us ignorant because you wish to remain ignorant and you don't understand??? The guy (you?) said that looking at the way God created the world is "spitting in his face." That's promoting ignorance.
This is an interesting project, it will help to fill in the holes in the knowledge of our origins. Most cultures have legends of the journeys that led to settling a new home, with this research we will see much more clearly who went where,
Here is the map I want to see more fully realized:
http://www.mitomap.org/WorldMigrations.pdf
There are interesting legends and recent research that Genographic project might help: were there Austronesian ("aborigine") migrations across the Pacific 40,000 years ago? Are modern Tibetans and Athapaskan speakers (Navaho) related through the so-called Amur River Culture? When and how often have the "X" haplogroups travelled to America, and were these only Neolithic migrations or did they occur throughout the Bronze and Iron ages? Finally, how much back-migration occured from the Americas to the Old World continents? I'm not the one to research it, but a correlation between Am-Indian oral lore and this geno-map could make for an interesting thesis.
My guess is that the project will show far more migration than previously expected - humans are nothing if not mobile.
josh
gigantino.tv - Heavy but weighs nothing.
... from platform to platform.
But I can't see why the National Geographic cares.
--- Attorneys Assisting Citizen-Soldiers & Families -
Just a thought: Linking this DNA study to studies in historical linguistics could give interesting results. There must be some correlation between people's DNA and the language they use.
I'll do it for cheesy poofs.
> I watch CSI, you know!
I've never heard this on CSI: "We searched CODIS and the National Geographic DNA Database."
You want me to voluntarily contribute my DNA so you can keep it on file somewhere? Not a chance! I watch CSI, you know!
s t_nyt_Oct2002.htm
You haven't seen anything, there are people willing to pay up to $290 for a DNA test that measure customers' racial ancestry and their ancestral proportions if they are of mixed race.
Check it out: http://www.racesci.org/in_media/raceanddna/dna_te
It is generally agreed that the first humans arrived in the americas around 25-30,000 years ago but their migration from that point on is a mystery.
One belief is that they migrated south through a northern passage as the polar ice-caps melted. Another is that they migrated down the west coast from the north pole to south America befoer the ice-caps melted. There is a third (more controversial) theory that they migrated by boat from africa and then moved north up the continent.
It will be interesting to see what conclusions are drawn.
This is my last post.
[6th Estate]
What punishment would suffice to appease?
will come from indigenous populations
The following statement is true
The preceding statement is false
public will be able to mail in their own DNA on special cheek swabs.
If crumpled up tissues count as these cheeked swabs then I can meet their 100,000 quota by tonight.
Don't worry, I wont have to change any of my usual plans.
Maybe they could use this study to help cure diseases or maybe better yet help the masses of over a billion people in poverty.
Some research on this was done before.
There was also this fellow, British I think, who did a documentary about early human migration using genetics, he was on TV (PBS?) a few years back. Nice work. He showed that there were two waves out of Africa. One hugged the coastline reaching India then all the way to Australia, and another going to central Asia, then staying there for a while, and then a branch going west to Europe, and another going east to Siberia, Beringia, and eventually to the Americans. Can't remember his name. Rats!
Some other resources:
Scientists trace human migration using DNA.
Wikipedia article on Human migration.
Stephen Oppenheimer did a genetic map.
Kurgan Genetics.
Neanderthaals and mtDNA
2bits.com, Inc: Drupal, WordPress, and LAMP performance tuning.
No, I don't think this means that they were an evil company in the late 30s - early 40s, but I do think it indicates that they were a big business. Global market, don't really care how you use our products - just buy them.
This has been a test. If this had been an actual Sig, you would have been amused.
At the end of the day, unless you live in central Africa, and possibly not then, no one is truly indegenous. We're all immigrants at some point or another.
OK, I know I'm nitpicking. As far as the spread of mankind etc. then the first arrivals are the indigenous population. Here in the west of Europe peoples have been coming ad going for several thousend years. Exactly who's indigenous is very complex.
init 11 - for when you need that edge.
Isn't it amazing that we can convict a suspect of murder with a 99.99% certainty using DNA evidence but the religious reject it if it goes against their beliefs.
The best case of DNA invalidating a religion is Mormonism. The founder of Mormonism claimed to have translated a book that was written by a people that migrated from the Middle East to the American continent. He claimed that these immigrants were the "priciple ancestors" of the modern day American Indian.
Well it turns out that DNA proves what science has been saying for years. The American Indian is of Asiatic decent. Any other examples of DNA destroying a religion?
So, how many out there think this is a government funded plot to genetically tag everyone on the planet, starting with a very innocent looking 100k?
Prepare to superglue foil inside you entire mouth. You know, just in case of some forced swab penetration.
BDR Gear
Outdoor gear, MREs, and more!
This dangerous research is bad. We all came from Eve and Adam 5000 years ago. Why do we need to do this?
On a more serious note (in case you did not guess the above was a joke), I always thought that historical
linguistics could provide the same answers.
Perhaps this will advance their research into effective biometric security systems.
>There's probably DNA floating around EVERYWHERE by now!
Human skin flakes, a.k.a. dander, is everywhere that humans are. It just flakes off and floats away.
It's kinda creepy to think that every breathe we take may include a little bit of the person in the next cubicle. Remind me to hand out loofas at the next staff meeting.
--- Attorneys Assisting Citizen-Soldiers & Families -
>> I watch CSI, you know!
>I've never heard this on CSI: "We searched CODIS and the National Geographic DNA Database."
No? It was the same episode where they searched Slashdot for people who could take a joke. They didn't find anything.
We all came from Africa, it's just a matter of when .....
Better check your bible. my bible clearly shows that Adam and Eve werent the first/only couple on earth.
Day 6 Genesis Chapter 1:27 - says God made people - lots of them (specifically plural) and then told them to go make babies. God took the next day off.
Later on, in chapter TWO, we learn about a special deal, Adam and Eve. (If you read through Talmudic/Kabbalah sources you come across the idea that Eve wasnt the first woman either...) So, theologically speaking, Adam was the first man to receive revelation from God, but, not necessarily the 1st man created.
Anyway, thought I'd clear that up.
The only PT Boat Journal on the web: http://www.PT171.org
And then there was the subpoena that forced the project to hand over all records because of a "thread to national security" all of a sudden we are back to 1939 because my 448th cousin has decided to go and blow himself up in a shopping centre.
Sounds really good!.. cant wait to join.. just like i cant wait to join some mercenary force in africa run by a bunch of stupid british people!.
That's probably because Christianity has mythology as part of it's foundation, which tends to offend the sensibilities of many people of an uncompromising scientific mindset.
Mod down people who tell people how to mod in their sigs
> Any religion that claims to be the 'only religion' is obviously false. You'd have to be a half-wit to miss that logical fallacy.
This doesn't make sense to me. It seems that if a religion did not claim to be the 'only religion', then why would any of its members cling to it at all? After all, if Christianity was just 'one of many' ways to God, why would people have any incentive to remain Christian? It makes more sense to infer (at least if you believe in a certain religion) that your religion must be the 'only religion', otherwise the central tenets of what 'religion' is fail.
-- There, everybody likes a gorilla.
Africa as a starting point is relatively unquestioned. Even theories which point to reverse migration back into Africa still acknowledge it as the point of origin.
;-)
The first man being "Adam" is a geneticist convention. Given that the Y-chromosome remains unaltered during reproduction aside from mutation and retrovirus based alterations, and the differences in modern day Y-chromosomes are extremely small within humanity, but (relatively speaking) extremely large with other primates, there have been several theories pointing to either one, or a very small number of males that acted as the progenitors for modern day humans.
For the last, those maps already exist, based on years of study, they are probably using them as a basis for study to confirm or refute specific branches. It's known as a hypothesis, scientists use them occasionally.
-ShadowRanger
For the recrod, this isn't the first study of human migratory patterns. Many migration routes are now well established, whereas others are in debate and should be studied further. This study will help establish better timelines, settle controversies, and maybe even provide fresh theories to be tested. They are not "fitting data to preconceived notions" just because they are using the current body of knowledge as a starting point for their study.
AFAIK the African origins of humankind are fairly well established. The fact that genetic anthropologists decided to call the oldest known common male ancestor "adam" and the oldest female one "eve" just shows that they have a sense of humour and history, not that what they do is quackery.
So, yes, it is science.
Hey, I agree with the guy! After finding the address of the person I wrote a letter to by the digitally zoomed image in a mirror, they could look on the envelope gum for DNA and track me down in seconds.
How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
From Publishers Weekly:
In this surprisingly accessible book, British geneticist Wells sets out to answer long-standing anthropological questions of where humans came from, how we migrated and when we arrived in such places as Europe and North America. To trace the migration of human beings from our earliest homes in Africa to the farthest reaches of the globe, Wells calls on recent DNA research for support. Clues in the blood of present groups such as eastern Russia's Chukchi, as well as the biological remnants of long-extinct human clans, allow Wells to follow the Y chromosome as a relatively unaltered marker of human heritage. Eventually, working backward through time, he finds that the earliest common "ingredient" in males' genetic soup was found in a man Wells calls the "Eurasian Adam," who lived in Africa between 31,000 and 79,000 years ago. Each subsequent population, isolated from its fellows, gained new genetic markers, creating a map in time and space. Wells writes that the first modern humans "left Africa only 2,000 generations ago" and quickly fanned out across Asia, into Europe, and across the then-extant land bridge into the Americas. Using the same markers, he debunks the notion that Neanderthals were our ancestors, finds odd links between faraway peoples, and-most startlingly-discovers that all Native Americans can be traced to a group of perhaps a dozen people. By explaining his terminology and methods throughout the book, instead of in a chunk, Wells makes following the branches of the human tree seem easy. 44 color photos, 54 halftones and 3 maps.
San Francisco Photographers
There are TWO models detailing the origins of our species. One model is the Out-of-Africa model. This effectively states that Homo sapiens left africa and COMPLETELY replaced Home Erectus (found in China) and Homo sapiens neandertalensis in Europe with little to no inter-breeding. This is the current "popular" theory.
i regional-model.html
o ff
However, there is another model called the multi-regional model that states Homo sapiens evolved sperately on each of the different continents. How could this happen you say? Because enough interbreeding went on to maintain species integrity. Proponents of the Out-of-Africa model tend to ignore fossil evidence from Dali China that shows a skull exhibiting charateristics closer to H. sapiens than H. erectus - pre-dating the earliest evidence from Africa. Or other evidence such as a blending of charateristics in the middle east (mix of Neanderthal/H. Sapiens): EXACTLY where you would expect to find that sort of thing.
Check out the following link: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/02/more-on-mult
Or google: Milford Wolpoff http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Milford+Wolp
The Out-of-Africanists are force fitting a theory on the existing data. Something they are able to get away with because the current "most popular" scientists (D. Johanson, Leekey) push it. Its unfortunate that politics has worked its way into science.
Remember, you only find what you are looking for.
DNA test that measure customers' racial ancestry and their ancestral proportions if they are of mixed race.
Good... Maybe we'll nearly erase bigotry if most people discover they each have up to 10% blood from other races.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Actually, the chapter 1 story (and 2:1--4a) and chapter 2:4b--3.24 stories in Genesis are *different* stories, combined by a later "redactor." Chapter 1 is commonly called "P" for "Priestly" source, while Chapter 2 is commonly called "J" for "Yahweh".
Even in translation the styles are starkly different.
Doesn't this bother anyone else?
Usually, when you set out to do research you have alternative hypotheses that you test the same way as the hypothesis you hold dear to your heart -- this is the scientist's way of tricking himself into not lying to himself.
It's called strong inference. They should use it before the lose it.
Seastead this.
Please don't start a line at your local IMAX. I strongly suspect any film documentary of this WON'T be coming to an IMAX near you.
Wow, yes its science
First the contention that humans originated in Africa is only slightly debatable. The majority of reputable evidence clearly points to Africa as the site of the original man
Second the first man is referred to as Adam because what else would you call him? Homo Alpha? The name Adam is synonymous with the first man in western culture so there is no reason that they shouldn't use it.
Third if you had glanced at the article you would have seen that while there is sufficient data to present human migration in broad strokes, it is insufficient to determine finer details of population movement. An example from the article is tracing the genetic trail of Alexander the Great's, army.
The Autarch totally owns the KH.
Since when could the KH reboot the sun?
(shoots KH with HK)
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
Dinosaurs with a flaming sword? Oh man, how did I miss it...those Saturday morning shows were documentaries...
While you would be correct in saying that all Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) claim to be the only religion the same is not true of eastern religions.
Specifically while Buddhism teaches the path of Buddha it is possible to become independently enlightened. (that's what Siddhartha did anyway) Hinduism wouldn't have a problem accepting God, Yahweh, Thor or anyone else into their extensive pantheon. And Shintoism, Daoism, and Confucianism don't even teach explicitly about any God.
Furthermore, the trend in modern religion (speaking first hand about catholicism) is to be more tolerant of other religions and not start the conversation with, "Have you accepted Jesus as your LORD and savior."
> Firstly, the contention that human's originated
> from Africa is highly debatable.
Uh, no... it's not. Too much evidence from too many disparate fields. Most Creationists still aren't ready to accept it, but I wouldn't call that much of a debate. Linguistics, archeology, paleontology, genetics, etc... all point to the widely established theory that Africa is the orginial home of the hominids, we sapiens included.
Acording to a program on the Discovery Channel, about 60,000 years ago, the population of homo sapiens sapiens was reduced to ~2000. The current hypothesis is that the supervolcano under Yellowstone erupted and caused world-wide havoc on the ecosystem causing mass die-offs in populations. It would be noted that around that time, the North American Interior Seaway is believed to have broken through (possibly because of the eruption) the land seperating it from the Atlantic Ocean. This breka would have caused world sea level to rise about 10 meters. In flat lying areas such as the middle east (considered the birthlace of civilization) this would have caused floods hundreds of miles inland. Correlates roughly to the story of Noah (world gets flooded and only a handful of people left to repopulate the Earth)
Free MacMini
I can't wait to see idiot racists get pissed when they find out great-great-great-great-great-great-grandma was asian, african or even GASP semite. As much as people don't want to know... the truth needs to be told, we're all mutts. There is no "master race".
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
Furthermore, the nomenclature is mischeivious: Adam and Eve never met. They probably didn't even live within 5 thousand years of eachother. All these studies show are that all existing versions of these genes trace back via a given series of mutations to a specific individual, which, usuing geographic data and some assumptions about migratory behavior and mutation rates, you can imply to have existed in a certain place and time. You can do this with any loci, and at some point in the past it fixes. Each gene goes back to a different individual in a different place. HLA genes go back to the earliest vertibrates.
Don't freak out when you learn the truth about the garden.
This has already been done/started years ago. http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=human+genome+d iversity+project
How dare these clown polute the slashdot literature!
take a look at this photo of the eastern australian aborignes (now wiped out). They were descendants of the Murrayian aborignes. Some say they were part homo erectus. You can still see some aspects of the murrayians in some aborgines today. They may have mixed with erectus on the way down to Australia.
BTW, most aborigines has visual cortexes that are 25% larger than other humans.
eat shiat and bark at the moon
So, will IBM own my DNA, If I send mine in?
While Choicepoint is not mentioned in TFA, If you don't think they and their like-minded competitors are salivating on getting their hands on everyone's DNA, then you have not been paying attention.
IBM does the collection, Choicepoint could do the harvesting, it all sounds just wonderful, doesn't it?
I wonder what the going rate for Briteny Spear's DNA is?
There is not nearly enough love in the world, but there is far too much trust.
Um. A quick question; do you seriously believe the whole Noah's Ark story?
...are not salivating...
Must remember... PREVIEW!
There is not nearly enough love in the world, but there is far too much trust.
You think Christians are persecuted, try running for political office in the U.S. as a declared atheist.
How persecuted can you be when an eveangelical Christian is the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES?
Puh-leez.
Now all they need is to give them all typewriters.
http://www.cytoscape.org/
"Cytoscape is an open source bioinformatics software platform for visualizing molecular interaction networks and integrating these interactions with gene expression profiles and other state data."
http://www.geneontology.org/
"The goal of the Gene Ontology project is to produce a controlled vocabulary that can be applied to all organisms even as knowledge of gene and protein roles in cells is accumulating and changing. GO provides three structured networks of defined terms to describe gene product attributes. GO is one of the controlled vocabularies of the Open Biomedical Ontologies."
Sure me two i'll be the one tainting the samples with my spit. :D
Coward? Coward! Thems fighten words!!
One concern is that the folks may pervert the finding of this data to support one of two equally corrupt conclusions. One that finding a single lineage of all people (monogenism) endorses the Judeo-Christian beliefs in Adam & Eve. Or two that multiple sources of origin (polyenism) can justify racism - in that some lineages are "less" evolved than others. The dangers of these ideas are well documented by Louis Menand in his wonderful book "The Metaphysical Club"
Now all they need is to give them all typewriters.
Web browsers. And the address of this site.
#!/usr/bin/english
I think that the claim to be the "only religion" implies "the only religion for that individual", with the point being to believe whatever you think is true, but let others do the same without trying to force your views on them.
Hehe, thankfully I can, and noticed that there are no +Funny modifiers (but a +FB one) on it, nor does it bear any resemblance to humor... Either that or it is horribly, horribly redundant. Oh well, doesn't matter.
One of the stronger arguements against african origin is called the multiregional model which purports that humans evolved through variety of location.
So, as the evidence mounts in favour of a recent African origin, one might ask why we continue to speculate about our evolutionary history. Why are we still digging if the roots have been unearthed? The answer is that in spite of the facts, there is still no final answer. None of the deductions made thus far are watertight, and the methods and approaches employed are continually being reassessed. For instance, over recent years the assumption that mitochondrial DNA is maternally inherited and thereby free from recombination has been disputed. If sperm mitochondria are found to recombine with mitochondria present in the ovum, the credibility of the mitochondrial evidence may be called into question. Similarly, flaws in the molecular clock technique have been highlighted.
The story is further complicated by the possibility that neither of the principal models (OAR and Multiregional) is correct. The true explanation may be an amalgamation of the two, which is reflected in the alternate "Hybridisation" and "Assimilation" models. These theories tone down the role of replacement in human evolution by incorporating gene flow and hybridisation yet still allow that Africa has a prime position in human genetic history. The exact importance of Africa, and indeed the full narrative, remains to be told. But with further advances in molecular techniques, and the use of alternate gene systems, we may finally be getting closer to solving the mystery of where we came from...
Paraminder Dhillon
There are other arguements against the african origin, just as there are mounting arguments against the land bridge theory. Much of the arguements is that we are finding the oldest humans in Africa because that is where we are looking. It's easy to find things in Africa, as opposed to say the frozen North, which may have older fossil evidence from when those latitudes were much warmer but are now buried beneath snow and ice. Regardless, these theories being held as "law" are making it quite difficult to do real science.
Proponents of the Land Bridge Migration have made it very difficult to accept dating clovis man, mummies in South America and sites in South Carolina older because they so conflict with their precious theory. In the same manner, evidence that conflicts with the African Origin theory is ruled as wrong rather than as interesting. To me, this doesn't seem like science but rather religion: if data conflicts with a theory, it should call the theory into question rather than the data, particularily when there are many data points that do not support a theory that is based on very little data.
Look at where these tennents are coming from -- victorian notions. We see our Christian views as central to everything and we try to fit our observations to fit these views. Rather than searching for "Adam & Eve", science should be searching for early humans and try to figure out what it might mean. We have very little data on humans past 100,000 years. It could very likely turn out that humans migrated to Africa for the weather when other regions became too cold. Older human remains than those found in South Africa where "Adam" is placed on the articles map have been found far to the North in Ethiopia.
--
don't anthropomorphize ancient people, they don't like it
That's already been done. Who do you think reads /. these days?
No, I don't make an assertion in either direction.
I say there isn't any proof of a God-like entity existing, but you do. So, prove to me that Jesus H Fucking Christ existed.
It seems that if a religion did not claim to be the 'only religion', then why would any of its members cling to it at all? After all, if Christianity was just 'one of many' ways to God, why would people have any incentive to remain Christian?
Gods: Plural.
When the Romans encountered new religions in their travel, they didn't go "oh noes, other gods! The central tenets of our religion must be false!", they simply went "hey, new gods, what did you say there name was? And what does he do? Thunder, lightning? Oh, we call him Zeus..."
Much the same way that when early Christians encountered other religious practises, they assimilated them... until they got strong enough to crush them instead, that is.
I'm sure there's a few Hindus out there who figure that Jesus was simply another avatar of Vishnu.
You can't take the sky from me...
When Chrisitanity (which is what most people think of when they say religion) says they are the only religion what they mean is that if you don't believe in Jesus you will burn in eternal hellfire.
...
Well Rev. Jeb what if no one told me about Jesus?
I'm sorry Timmy thats just plain bad luck, but you will still burn in eternal hellfire.
Fortunately for you Timmy you live in this comfortable red state where everyone knows that Jesus is the son of the only God, so all you have to do is accept him and you'll be hunkey-dory. Unless of course you do something evil like believe in evolution, fornicate, do drugs, question your pastor, eat meat on Friday in Lent, fail to acknoledge Mary as the Virgin mother of our LORD, worship Mary on par with the LORD, commit suicide, question transsubstaniation, practice homosexuality, fail to kneel befor the Lamb of God, read any of those banned books (including Harry Potter or the Davinci Code), listen to rock and roll, wear a hat in chuch (men), not wear a bonnet in chuch (women), fail to give 10% of your income to the church
50 years ago no one ever dreamed of identity theft and we gave out our social security numbers like candy on Holloween. Fast forward to 2005, ID theft has reached crisis proportions -- and the govt is either unwilling (or unable) to do anything about it. I would not be so quick to hand out my Bio ID (DNA).
I used to handle amniotic fluid for a major genetic testing facility. I would receive recursively packaged vials of widely color-varied amniotic fluid, and pack them into styrofoam test-tube holders. This was before anyone trusted me to touch their computers.
Later on the data-entry part, I had changed the screen resolution from 640x480 to 800x600 -- so I could see the whole entry form without scrolling. When someone noticed this, they send out 3 technicians: two to figure out how to change the res back, and one to scold my manager for letting me do this. Afterwards, my manager told me that it makes sense to increase productivity, but not when policies are interfered with.
Handling biological samples might be a ton of fun, but it's the other associated tasks that may be less than fun.
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
While we in the West predominantly hold that view, there are many among us and in other parts of the world that believe otherwise and would gladly force their version of religious 'law' upon everyone.
This is why I am Buddist/Agnostic - I find it hypocritical on the one hand 'loving thy neighbor', and on the other hand damning him to hell for being Hindu (or whatever - take your pick).
Thankfully the 1st Amendment grants Americans the freedom to pursue whatever religion they see fit - which is a good thing, given the hare-brained interpretations of religious 'law' I see coming from religeous fundamentalists of many faiths - and the deadly consequences of not following the 'law' in some parts of the world.
Religious intollerance is just another form of xenophobia.
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
That proof has been provided already, but your comment makes it obvious that you wouldn't want to hear it.
Heard any good sigs lately?
My mom said there's a lot of black people in Africa.
eMelody Web Directory add your site today!
I remember reading comments by someone on the original "eve" study that implied that the "Out of Africa" theory of human origin was one possible interpretation of the data. There were other interpretations that were as likely, but not consistent with the current dogma.
Wonder if this study will clear up the OOA?
Yes uhuh your sales pitch has convinced me i shall buy your product and or service so how much?
Coward? Coward! Thems fighten words!!
...whosyourdaddy
Agreed, but since this website is written in English, and mostly concerns American companies I assume that the audience primarily American/European. In this case most people will think Christianity when they hear religion.
The described project looks at things from an anthropological timescale. You can also look for ancestors on a genealogical timescale using DNA (depending on the mutation rate of the DNA). The Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation are building a huge database to enable genealogists to locate ancestors based on their DNA.
Another project accomplishing similar objectives: the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation.
I already posted the response below in another section of this thread, but since your innacurate claims are getting so much notice, here it goes again.
? Me nuChoice=pressreleases&TemplateName=ShowPressRelea seTemplate&SelectString=t1.docunid=1388&TableName= DataheadApplicationClass&SESSIONKEY=any&WindowTitl e=Press+Release [ibm.com]
? Me nuChoice=all&TemplateName=ShowToPrint&SelectString =t1.docunid=828&TableName=DataheadApplicationClass &SESSIONKEY=any&WindowTitle=Press+Release&STATUS=p ublish&ShowContacts=$ShowContacts$ [ibm.com]
So the totalitarian regime in power in Germany from 1933 to 1945 used IBM equipment. They also used products from lots of other companies that exist today, does that make them all evil accomplices? From IBM's statement about this book,
http://www-1.ibm.com/press/PressServletForm.wss
"It has been known for decades that the Nazis used Hollerith equipment and that IBM's German subsidiary during the 1930s -- Deutsche Hollerith Maschinen GmbH (Dehomag) -- supplied Hollerith equipment. As with hundreds of foreign-owned companies that did business in Germany at that time, Dehomag came under the control of Nazi authorities prior to and during World War II. It is also widely known that Thomas J. Watson, Sr., received and subsequently repudiated and returned a medal presented to him by the German government for his role in global economic relations."
and a follow-up statement from 2002, a year later:
http://www-1.ibm.com/press/PressServletForm.wss
Now let me ask you this: would you buy a vehicle from Volkswagen or Mercedes-Benz? Both were used extensively by the Third Reich. Does that mean we should all hate and boycott these companies 60+ years later?
After all, the original Volkswagen was designed by Dr. Ferdinand Porsche for use in the Sahara Desert by the German Africakorp. Hitler's army didn't just buy the vehicles off the shelf. Dr. Porsche was specifically instructed by them to design an air-cooled vehicle for the military.
Times change, people learn. Don't try to make everyone guilty by association, especially when it's so tenuous.
And for the record I'm proud to work for IBM.
I say! Lets all take samples from our pets at home and send the data,,,that'll screw them up big time! I can picture it! Science doctor found that we have gecko dna and dies horribly after severing his arms just to see if it could grow back!
members of the general public will be able to mail in their own DNA
Here's the address:
Sign Me Up!
Box TIA^h^h^hDNA
Dept. of Homeland Security
Somewhere
Washington, D.C. 20666
It takes an idiot to do cool things - that's why it's cool!
oooook?
#!/usr/bin/english
about 60,000 years ago, the population of homo sapiens sapiens was reduced to ~2000. The current hypothesis is that the supervolcano under Yellowstone erupted and caused world-wide havoc on the ecosystem causing mass die-offs in populations.
Yes, about 74,000 years ago.
Yes, there is a supervolcano under Yellowstone. And it could blow anytime on a geological time scale. But it hasn't erupted for about 600,000 years.
The Toba supervolcano in Indonesia is deemed responsible for the genetic bottleneck observed in human DNA, IIRC.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
Yes, your correct. I'm guilty of mixing up my Discovery Channel shows. Thanks for fixing my mistake
Free MacMini
Another discussion of a bio-science article degenerating into a spitting match between the mythologists and the scientists. Some things never change.
Well, at least Wodin's Day is almost done, Thor's Day and Frigga's Day to go and I'll spend Saturn's Day and the Sun's Day pondering this, or not. I could just sit around and drink beer.
You'll all be sorry when Ragarok comes!
Ford actually did do buisness with Germany. I wasn't pulling that out of my ass, either.
Hitler and Henry Ford had also written each other a few letters.
Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
"Abiotic genesis", or life from non-life, isn't really a part of the theory of evolution. As has been pointed out, there's no evidence yet for this. It's more than just a conjecture, as some testing has been done and it certainly seems plausible, but that's about it.
Feel free to attack the abiotic genesis hypothesis, but don't confuse it with attacking what any scientist means by "evolution".
Like the hypothesis that extraterrestrial life exists, this is in the "there's no reason to think it's false" bucket, awaiting further work before becoming an accepted theory.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Not to mention the first forced sterilization, before the Nazi party even came to power. See Buck v. Bell.
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
Wilt had a day job, and his... adventures... took place after the advent of birth control. I doubt he'll end up with the same sort of advantage. I suppose a particularly prolific raping soldier might be singularly responsible for an influx of a particular trait into a neighboring region. Perhaps more likely?
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
Wow, this is *exactly* the same evidence that the Yeti exists. Cool, I always liked Yeti.
OTOH, it seems pretty likely there was some sort of historical basis for the "crazy survivalist who says he talks to god builds boat, only to get the last laugh when it actually does flood" story, given how often it shows up. To assert that that somehow demonstrates the truth of the biblical story is quite a reach, however, given other stories are older.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Well, honestly, i'm very sick of this subject. While i am not a creationist, and do not belive in the whole "god created everything" , But honestly, I hate the theory of "we came from Africa" Maybe it's just me. Maybe it's the fact that we spent 5 months on it in History class. I think instead of focusing on Africa, we should be compairing it with other cultures, and not just the major ones. not just Asian, white black. But with the minorities also. But thats me, and who cares.
I am French, and terribably sorry for my spelling.
Genographic project site, rather than BBC reporting of it. Like I put in my submission of this story, earlier than this one. Winge moan. And this one should have an IBM tag.
How to Participate
The only thing you can accurately describe as "Scotch" is a sticky tape made by 3M. And it's
McQuitty's Law States: No matter how fast the computer, it's always too slow.
While DNA may provide a much more accessible accurate trace than the fossil record of the details of the HSS diaspora, the method used to extrapolate dates from the genetic data is much less precise than geological techinques.
So it should be a fairly safe assumption that the bottleneck around the time of y-Adam was due to Toba and that date should be -74K rather than -60K.
This is pretty much consistent with the correction needed to match their -40K "out of Africa" date with recent best estimates of earlier than -50K for Australian megafaunal extinction, though those dates have more margin for error than the Toba date.
Given the accumulation evidence that much of the diaspora was likely coastal with short sea legs and the suggestion that most of the modern population of Africa was reseeded by returnees from the Indian Ocean basin, Tim Flannery's hypothesis in The Future Eaters that the opportunity the first arrivals in Australia found to overexploit the megafauna had a species-wide cultural impact.
-- Our systemic servants do not good masters make.
An answer to that question was given years ago by Richard Dawkins.
Follow the link. It's worth it. If you are too lazy a very short (and somewhat distorted) summary is:
* Religions cannot be mainly about truth, as the vast majority of people keep their parents' religion. If it had been about truth, religions would have spread more easily without the help of tradition.
* Religions are ideas that propagate through contact, as viruses. A stronger "virus" in this sense, is one which claims to be the only way to salvation, because it frightens people into not choosing other alternatives.
These samples are generally going to mitochondrial DNA, which isn't much use in identifying you as you and not someone else.
There is an interesting project being run using the same techniques to determine the extent of the Phoenicians' expansion across the Mediterannean.
National Geographic had a feature about it alst year.
Interesting reading.
This is one of the really amazong stories to come out of modern genetics. There is an excellent book (for all people not just scientists) called The Seven Daughters of Eve which guides you thorugh the basics of the science. (The title despite its religious overtone is really about the 7 women that 95% of all Europeans can trace their ancestry to).
There are also technical papers (there are tons but these are good places to start) here and here (this one discusses the long unknown origins of Pacific Islanders which was one of the early successes of this technique).
This study is an incredible combination of biologic science and social science, which could has the possibility to answer questions that are not able to be answered by traditional archaelogy and anthropology. It is quite amazing to think that our ancestry has been preserved, not in rock and artifact, but in our own living bodies.
Archelogical evidence seems to show that they've been in Oz for at least 160,000 years. Mind you he could be right, that could be evidence of earlier Hominoid immigrants & the current aboriginal population might be descended from a later immigration within the last 60'000 years.
...when Liberals and Conservatives discover they share a common ancestry. [shudder]
Who says it has to be a cheek swab sample?
(squats over an envelope)
The GEEK shall inherit the earth...
I remember a TV special on it. I also rememebr it came out it was all faked. :) Good luck, but I'm betting on the Yeti.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
There must be countless ways of planning such a program, many of them pleasant and or humane. Though two problems remain, how to identify benefitial traits (and just what is benefitial) and how these are to be increased in frequency. So, a question for Ask Slashdot could be:
- What characteristics would a benefitial and humane eugenics program have? How would it be humanely and ethically rolled out?
Science fiction authors and films have brought up the topic in both the foreground (Gattacca, Boys from Brazil, Brave New World ) and background (Niven's Ringworld novels or StarTreck corp.'s Space Seed & Wrath of Kahn) But how would a program improve the species and remain humane? How would improvement be defined?Most tribes used to have ordeals which one must pass in order to achieve adult status and privileges, e.g. voting and marriage. Some still do. One of the First Nations in the US modified theirs to conform to US law and substituted part of the ordeal with an enlistment in the Marine Corps infantry, sending a whole platoon through once every two years.
Others have dropped the requirements. Finland, for example, used to require that people could only marry if they could read. Given the stigma and other problems back then of out of wedlock children, this gave a huge reproductive advantage to those that could read.
Others never had requirements and actually penalize stronger, healthier, or smarter individuals:
-
successful athletes are pushed harder until they are crippled or begin to break down organs and tissues or take enhancement drugs, some of which have negative long term side effects.
- successful professionals (doctors, lawyers and other highload jobs) must usually postpone or de-prioritize personal development and even family responsibilities for their careers. stress and work load often contributes to shortened involvment in child rearing
- military personell (statistically stronger and smarter than median) are put in harms way, exposed to stress and environmental pathogens which can cause physical or mental damage. death is an indefinitely, but wating until after the enlistment or going to school after adds delay, too. having kids during an enlistment has disadvantages which may or may not be significant
- academics generally have to postpone or de-prioritize personal development and even family responsibilities for their careers. The sedenatary lifestyle can also cause health problems. New faculty gunning for tenure must work a minimum 80-90 hours per week or face uprooting and relocating
- etc.
Anything that delays and/or reduces reproduction reduces the frequency of those traits in the population. Anything that shortens the useful length of life also reduces the grandparent benefit, which is a key advantage in primates like homo sapiens sapiens. So nowadays, most nations are effectively culling healthy, strong, or smart individuals.Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Hence the expression,
Fatherhood is opinion, motherhood is fact.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Just to double-check, this is the Ark as in the actual story of Noah's Ark? i.e. the one that carried animals whilst the world was entirely submerged, and not just evidence of a large ship/localised flooding that would be the basis for a Noah's Ark mythology to grow around.
In other words, are we talking about a standard historical basis for flood mythology, or a supernatural event that happened in the past?
The "Middle East" is actually called East Asia by many Asians themselves.
Science debunks many religious myths, but this interjection of yours is nonsense.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Because cell samples from male participants contain Y chromosomes as well as mitochondrial DNA (the latter which they inherited from their mothers). The point being, male participants provide more of the genetic material used in these tests than females do. Actually, for each male participant, the testing of one woman (his biological mother) becomes redundant.
Still, I think there are other factors in favor of having both males and females participate:
According to the Genographic project FAQ, male samples will be subject to the Y-DNA test only, which looks like a wasted opportunity to me. However, it could be that male participants will be suggested to upgrade their tests with Family Tree DNA if they want the mtDNA test too. I have sent mail to National Geographic asking them to clarify that particular answer.
Sorry, I'm not really one of the believers. A global flood and Noah's Ark takes too much divine intervention to explain away. Doubtless an omnipotent God could manipulate reality enough to make it possible, but it seems an overly complicated explanation.
Furthermore, as I understand it, God is meant to be all-good, as well as all-powerful and all-knowing. Worldwide genocide doesn't particularly strike me as something a moral God would do.
One wonders why God decided to create such evil people in the first place. And that leads to some interesting questions; one might except the possibility that all men were evil, but what about newborns? Unless all these evil people were sterile, God decided to drown babies and unborn children as well.
And if God knew that the way he set up the Universe would later require him to wipe out the majority of humanity later on, why did create the Universe that way?
For instance, what if God created the entire Universe after the Great Flood. What if Noah and his families recollections of what happened were false memories, implanted by God. What would be more moral? Creating the world and humanity knowing that you would have to commit genocide later on, or simply lying to Noah about what occured. The outcome would be the same; the question is whether you believe it would be more moral for God to falsify the evidence, or to create millions of people in such a way that you knew you'd be forced to kill them later on.
According to the author the nazi's didn't just use IBM machines, and IBM didn't just do what they were told. IBM went out of there way to provide services, and ANTICIPATE the needs of the nazis. They were trying to corner the market in what the nazis need to kill. There was more to this than just following orders.
;)
Comparing IBM to VW is just silly, there is a vast difference between the two. VW didn't take a look at how the deathcamps were being run and try to make a car that would allow the germans to exterminate jews and get better gas mileage. That's what Dehomag did, and according to this book, they were well supported by Watson. You paint a great picture of watson, returning his medal. But the author presents the opposite picture. He puts forth that the medal was returned under pressure from public opinion, not his own desire to do good.
Not all the info may be true, much is contested. But don't attempt to put me down because you want to believe that IBM did no evil. The claims are made that nazis didn't just use IBM machines, they used IBM services, and IBM was Globally supportive of their efforts.
Just wondering where I suggested that we boycott (I own a thinkpad), or that IBM hasn't changed. Part of that post was in jest, but it was also attempting to be informative. We have to be wary of big companies that may be trying to do good, but if put in a bad situation can be harmful.
I dunno man, just calm down
http://monkeyserver.com --- weeeeee
Secondly, you seem to have missed my point. When God started the Universe with Adam and Eve, he knew that he'd wind up having to kill most of the world's population. If God started the Universe with Noah's family instead, and lied to Noah about the past, then there would be no need to kill many many people. I ask again; what would be more moral, creating people knowing you'd have to slaughter most of their descendants years down the line, or lying about the past.