DVD Truce Between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD?

An anonymous reader writes " Reuters is reporting that Toshiba and Sony are in talks about reconciling the two next-generation DVD formats. Ideas floated in the article include a unified DVD arch which could use "Blu-ray's disc structure and HD DVD software technology" (Sony's idea) or "HD DVD disc structure and employing Sony's multi-layer data-recording technology" (Toshiba's idea)"

Comments

Does format matter?

[pholower]

This article although informative, didn't do the best job in technical explanations, that is when I spotted the following line... A PC maker, for example, would not have to equip its computers with hard drives compatible with both formats.

I didn't realize the hard drive had to be made to be compatible. I guess speed could somehow come into play, but no, never mind, they don't know what they are talking about.

"It could take both camps some time to develop products based on a new standard, which leaves the risk of development delays for Sony's next-generation game console," Goldman Sachs analyst Yuji Fujimori wrote in a note to clients.

Does this really matter? Couldn't Sony still release their next PlayStation with BlueRay discs as their format? I mean, they did use UMD for the PSP, and they isn't a common format. If you know more about this let me know, but this to me would mean it could prevent more illegal copying of game discs.

Re:Does format matter?

[grungebox]

Does this really matter? Couldn't Sony still release their next PlayStation with BlueRay discs as their format? I mean, they did use UMD for the PSP, and they isn't a common format. If you know more about this let me know, but this to me would mean it could prevent more illegal copying of game discs.

My guess would be that they want a BlueRay more widely accepted for their broader media goals, like movies and music and so forth. UMD doesn't really have that much market potential in those areas, I guess. This is pure speculation, but it's a possible answer to your question.

Re:Does format matter?

[drinkypoo]

Sony wants their console to be compatible with popular media formats so they can sell more of them. Also, the PS2 helped expand the installed base of DVD players among gamers; The PS3 can help expand the installed base of (insert next-generation video standard here) among gamers, as well. That helps the format succeed. Also, it helps the PS3 succeed, because people who might not have bought one will buy it because it's a video player AND a game console - just like the PS2.

Too bad they didn't put VideoCD support in the PS, although I hear that you can get a plug-in module to do that (and play mp3s.)

Re:Does format matter?

[ackthpt]

"...A PC maker, for example, would not have to equip its computers with hard drives compatible with both formats."

I didn't realize the hard drive had to be made to be compatible. I guess speed could somehow come into play, but no, never mind, they don't know what they are talking about.

Since when does that stop anyone from doing a thorough analysis? Unless they're implying, to allow PC's to have a DVD drive would require the installation, on the HD, of some DRM thingy, which would sit not at all well with myself or pretty much anyone else who understands the implication.

Re:Does format matter?

[Anonymous Coward]

This matters very much for Sony. The PS2 wasn't such a big deal in North America because we mostly owned DVD players when it came out. Not so in Asia where DVD penetration was very low before the PS2. Then Sony came out with a top-notch game machine that was also a DVD player for the same price as a DVD player. They immediately had penetration in most Asian households.

They want to repeat this success, but this time they want to rule North America as well. So it is of absolutely critical importance to them that the PS3 contain whatever the nextgen DVD format is, and that it be one of the very first to market.

Re:Does format matter?

[Queer Boy]

I bought my PS2 because at the time, PSones were $100 and DVD players were $200. I wanted a DVD player and hadn't had a PlayStation in a little while (my first-gen PSX broke and I was in the Dreamcast camp).

I would buy a PS3 solely if it played PS2 games and had HD DVD support.

Re:Does format matter?

[ILikeRed]

It is a poor article. I think the real sticking point is over software controls, and whether the systems will be running Java, as Sony wants, or MSTV system, designed by Microsoft.

A better article is here from the EETimes.

I'm not sure I am excited by either prospect, but I worry more about the Microsoft licensing.

Re:Does format matter?

[grumpyman]

Why can't they just make proprietary format for new console? I guess there're 2 things: next-gen console should be able to play (or other functions) the next-gen video/music/media (e.g. PS-2 plays DVD movies); infrastructure cost - eventually it will be that 'new' format anyway, why waste $$ on 2 different sets of facilities on manufacturing.

Re:Does format matter?

[izzo nizzo]

I am terrified of having to tiptoe around with my blu-rays in bubble wrap because I am sick of losing optical discs to a few scratches. Why can't they enclose them in something that isn't so damn fragile? The psp approach is far better in this regard. I hope to heaven that this blu-ray coalition will realize that these media shouldn't be disposable. And if I'm not mistaken, smaller resolution for the data means that even more minute scratches will ruin everything. Bring back the minidisc casing, that stuff is unbreakable. The ps3 could conceivably read both encased discs and naked ones, so sony could protect their games even if movie-sellers chose not to.

Re:Does format matter?

[MBCook]

I seem to remember that there was a white PS that was released in Asia later (not the initial shipment) that could play Video CDs because they were popular, but it was never released in the states (can you blame them? I've almost NEVER seen video CDs here in the US).

While this is a good thing, frankly if I were Toshiba (and the rest of the HD-DVD group) I'd be scared. Just the PS3 should give Blu-Ray enough installed base to be something to content with, ignoring the fact that Apple (big media production computer brand), Dell (IIRC) and numerous others have already said they'd ship Blu-Ray too.

Re:Does format matter?

[Bryan-10021]

A PC maker, for example, would not have to equip its computers with hard drives compatible with both formats.

I didn't realize the hard drive had to be made to be compatible. I guess speed could somehow come into play, but no, never mind, they don't know what they are talking about.

It's a simple typo. They meant DVD instead of hard drive. The sentence *obviously* should read, "A PC maker, for example, would not have to equip its computers with DVD drives compatible with both formats."

Re:Does format matter?

[Have Blue]

This is pure paranoia. The author obviously meant to write "optical drives compatible with both formats".

Re:Does format matter?

[poot_rootbeer]

Don't you people know anything?

The "hard drive" is the big metal boxy thing that sits on or under your desk and you plug your keyboard and mouse and TV into it.

It also goes by the names "CPU", "processor", "modem", "computer", "box", and "thingy". They all mean the same thing.

Re:Does format matter?

[silicon not in the v]

This is pure paranoia. The author obviously meant to write "optical drives compatible with both formats".

And I can't believe his tin-foil hat rant about forcing scary DRM on hard drives is rated higher than your down to earth realism. Come on, people, it's just a case of a non tech-savvy reporter--not a big conspiracy. Not to say that there aren't (S)COnspiracies out there, but this isn't one of them.

Re:Does format matter?

[Short Circuit]

Someone came out with a durable coating that would make blu-ray discs scratch-resistant. Durned if I can find the article, though.

Re:Does format matter?

[ElyseMyers]

Interesting read, however, i'd be afraid of what kind of monopoly the sony/toshiba union would cause on that technology. I think its a bad idea that could turn out right, though I'm not too optomistic.

Re:Does format matter?

[kesuki]

I've almost NEVER seen video CDs here in the US

I can show you a stack of them I have, they're all on cd-r though... Mine are actually SVCDs though, Since my capture card could capture natively to SVCD specification, it was much easier a capture process than to try and make divx out of say, an anime I had rented locally.

Re:Does format matter?

[highwind81]

The PS2 wasn't such a big deal in North America because we mostly owned DVD players when it came out.

Was DVD players really widely spread on October of 2000? From my memory, I dont believe so.


Not so in Asia where DVD penetration was very low before the PS2.

I'm not sure what you mean by Asian households.
In Japan, PS2 came out in March of 2000. In Korea, Sony released PS2 in February of 2002. And lastly, in China, it was released in January of 2004. (Simple google search will direct you to these information)

Yeah, maybe in Japan in year 2000, DVD wasn't that popular. But Korea and China in year 2002 and 2004? I believe, DVD was popular enough by then. I don't think DVD function in PS2 really played a factor.

Why this rant?
I'm sorry if I sound anal...but I just hate it when people think Asia = Japan.

Re:Does format matter?

[fgl]

We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in Formats, we shall fight on the seas and oceans,
we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island,
whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds,
we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender,
and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving,
then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until,
in Profits good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old."

Re:Does format matter?

[Threni]

> I am terrified of having to tiptoe around with my blu-rays in bubble wrap
> because I am sick of losing optical discs to a few scratches

Yes, thank god DVDs are so robust, so that no-one's got DVDs that jump or hang because of a few scratches. Thank god the decision was taken to make DVDs tough and scratch resistant, at the expense of shatting when you drop them. After all, something as heavy as a DVD is very likely to break when you drop it, so I feel they found the right trade-off.

smart move

[blackomegax]

well, it looks like they got smart all of a sudden, because, unlike dvd+ and dvd- R and RW...bluray and HDdvd are so far apart you practically need 2 drives for total support..

not to mention the COST of bluray media...yeouch.

Re:smart move

[ackthpt]

well, it looks like they got smart all of a sudden, because, unlike dvd+ and dvd- R and RW...bluray and HDdvd are so far apart you practically need 2 drives for total support..

Or one seriously impaired drive, with lots of extra firmware and complex read/write heads, clunky and slow... eeewwww...

not to mention the COST of bluray media...yeouch.

You mistook someone for a charity?

Re:smart move

[swb]

Is it fair to judge Blu-Ray media prices now? I know there are some limited numbers of commercial products available (primarily in Japan), but it's hardly been exposed to mass production.

Re:smart move

[Lehk228]

CD-R was around 10-20 per disc when it came out IIRC. CDRW was 100, DVD R was aroiund $80

any new optical format will be expensive at first.

Are we learning yet?

[kc01]

Good deal- Perhaps Sony's learned lessons from "Beta" and "Memory Stick".

Without standards, there's no volume.

Re:Are we learning yet?

[grungebox]

Perhaps Sony's learned lessons from "Beta" and "Memory Stick".

Beta, yes. Memory Stick? Last I heard they were sticking to their guns, mostly because I think their memory-stick-requiring products like digital cameras, digital video cameras, and the PSP, use them. Doesn't mean memory sticks don't suck, just that Sony hasn't backtracked on the memory stick yet.

Re:Are we learning yet?

[Hadlock]

I think memory sticks are a moot point; the non volitile memory card market has been fragmented for a couple of years now, with many standards. The readers are unbelivably cheap ($25 for a 8 or 9 in one reader) that it doesn't really matter. Most digital cameras (sans Canons) act as a USB keychain drive when attached via a usb cable anyways, and ( i think ) that's how most people transfer their files. My guess is that every major camera company could come up with their own memory stick standard and nobody would balk at it. CF seems to be the standard in high end cameras due to the 4-12GB options for professionals, but everyone else uses various options without much infighting between companies over standards. Compare that to a roughly divided video tape market with only two competing standards that aren't limited by physical size, and you're really comparing apples to oranges.

Re:Are we learning yet?

[Acoustic]

Don't forget about MinDisc...

Re:Are we learning yet?

[mrchaotica]

I doubt it, considering that they're still "Full steam ahead!" on UMD...

Re:Are we learning yet?

[rainman_bc]

Most digital cameras (sans Canons) act as a USB keychain drive when attached via a usb cable anyways,

FYI Canons too act as a USB Keychain drive too, at least my Digital Rebel does, as does my sister's Powershot A85.

Re:Are we learning yet?

[Hadlock]

Hunh, that must be a new feature. I was reading an article about a device that allows you to transfer your pics on the camera to your iPod or thumb drive without the use of a computer. The reviewer said somthing along the lines of "all modern digital cameras but Canons will work with this, as they support ____ usb thumbdrive standard". Also, my Powershot A80 (half a generation behind your sister's, released in early 2004 I think) doesn't act as one.

Re:Are we learning yet?

[mskfisher]

I use Betacam SP tapes every week.

Of course, I'm involved in the production of an international TV broadcast... we are transitioning to a pure-digital studio, but for now, I handle a lot of tape.

It just cracks me up when people talk about Betacam in derisive terms, since a lot of what you've seen on TV for the last 20 years has been sourced from a Betacam tape.

It may not have taken off in the consumer market, but in the pro market, it rocked.

Re:Are we learning yet?

[caulfield]

It just cracks me up when people talk about Betacam in derisive terms, since a lot of what you've seen on TV for the last 20 years has been sourced from a Betacam tape.

People dis Betamax because it was proprietary, too expensive, too rare, and had no commercial content (movies). I think everyone can still agree on the technical superiority over VHS (scanlines, tape durability, and size of cassette).

Re:Are we learning yet?

[Leiterfluid]

My dad still has 2 BetaMax VCRs.
He's had one of them for about 25 years.

I'll disagree with the technical superiority of VHS. It looks like crap compared to betamax.
Since the casing was roughly the same (hard plastic shell) you can't say VHS is any better or any worse,
and BetaMax tapes are smaller than VHS, which means you can store more in less space.

Re:Are we learning yet?

[rtb61]

I read this as being more about the amount of time left to exploit the last optical disc format prior to polymer chip storage has shunk and rather than give it up they have become desperate enough to cooperate with each other before it is to late.

Re:Are we learning yet?

[mskfisher]

Whoops. I made a mistake.

We use Betacam SP tapes, which are, and have always been, marketed to the professional market.

Betamax, on the other hand, was the consumer version. Totally different beast. Smaller tape cartridge, narrower tape, and initially, a one-hour limit on tape time. "Beta" means Betamax to most people... but to me, I associate it with Betacam.

I suppose I'm showing my age here. I was still a kid when the VHS/Betamax war (skirmish?) was going on.

Re:Are we learning yet?

[GraemeDonaldson]

I have a PowerShot A95 and it supports only PTP, not USB mass storage. So does the A85, according to Google.

Re:Are we learning yet?

[4of12]

Doesn't mean memory sticks don't suck

but it does mean that consumers like me are steering away from Sony products that require me to use more expensive flash.

Somewhere inside Sony's marketing organization people have to be aware of this implicit cost upon tying products to products, but are probably afraid to bring the issue onto the table because memory sticks represent someone's sacred cow.

Re:Are we learning yet?

[caulfield]

That is what i said:

I think everyone can still agree on the technical superiority [of Betamax] over VHS.

Betamax was very cool. Sony however has a long history of poor decisions regarding new technology. They generally aren't a consumer market-friendly company. UMD is another perfect example of this. Lets hope that they shed their past transgressions by moving toward solidifying on a single next-gen DVD standard.

Re:Are we learning yet?

[caulfield]

Mod parent up.

I didn't realize the difference either. Thanks for all the Wiki legwork!

I also was a kid when Betamax/VHS was playing out. I still can't believe that JVC somehow slayed the Sony dragon (if only this one particular battle).

It's about time

[ghingy]

Finally these guys have decided to put their egos aside and work on a compromise. If they had thought about this in the first place, imagine how much money these corporation would save on wasted R&D.

Re:It's about time

[Quasar1999]

That wasted R&D, as you put it, might seem like a waste now, but who knows, they may have come up with something unusable currently, but invaluable in the future... R&D doesn't have to apply to the exact product you are currently working on... I'm reaping the benefits of R&D done for a product not even related to what I'm currently working on... It's not wasted... AND it remains the property of the respective company. Plus it's a tax writeoff (at least in Canada).

Re:It's about time

[Reignking]

I disagree. This article was in the WSJ days ago, and this is simply seen as a last-ditch effort to come to a compromise. I don't think they are anywhere near an agreement, and time is running out. The WSJ mentioned getting these new DVD on the market for Christmas 2005.

From the article: While a final deal is still far from certain

Re:It's about time

[garcia]

Finally these guys have decided to put their egos aside and work on a compromise. If they had thought about this in the first place, imagine how much money these corporation would save on wasted R&D.

I doubt it had anything to do with ego as Toshiba is planning on debuting their technology at the end of the year anyway in PCs.

Those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it... Sony probably realized that it was going to lose the battle if Toshiba got their stuff to market in 2005 and it was successful. If you can't beat them, join them.

Re:It's about time

[Mr Smidge]

The BBC also has an article about this.

Do you think that perhaps "HD-DVD software technology" includes this ghastly mechanism of rendering chosen player models/brands useless? I hope they haven't teamed up to ensure that such a disgraceful system isn't pushed onto us.

Then again, perhaps this collaboration will present some of the companies coming up with the decision that it isn't such a good idea.

We can only hope not. If a DRM system like that gets pushed onto us, I'm not going to be happy.

Re:It's about time

[Mr Smidge]

Just to clarify, the HD-DVD DRM key management system I was talking about is AACS, which /. already had an article about:

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/15/04 48205

The age old question.

[rmarll]

You got your chocolate in my peanutbutter.

You got your peanutbutter on my chocolate.

Re:The age old question.

[GrBear]

You got your peanutbutter on my chocolate.

Woah, for a minute there I thought that was pornographic!

Re:The age old question.

[mynzai]

And so what would the question be?

Re:The age old question.

[kirel]

... when he's underwater, does he get wet? Or does the water get him instead?

Nobody knows...

Re:The age old question.

[Digz]

..particle man..

Too late?

[mrRay720]

So they've got to:

Sort out the details
Get out a new spec
Prototypes
Verification
etc. etc.
All before the impending releases of if nothing else the PS3 and XBox2, never mind the PC & TV players?

Why do I get the feeling that this is a token gesture never intended to resolve the disputes, but instead to allow them to look back later and say "well we TRIED to get a common format but everyone else was in too much of a hurry!" If they were really serious about a common format, they would have done it long before now.

Deceipt at it's best!

Re:Too late?

[jeff_schiller]

Yep, I'll agree with that. The article states that the new formats are coming out by end of year, so at 7-months and counting this is a token gesture at best.

Re:Too late?

[Mandoric]

XBox 2's already confirmed for plain DVD-ROM; given Sony's insistence on Blu-Ray hardware with HD-DVD software for any compromise, one can assume that the PS3 will ship with the physical drive it's always been planned for, and differ only in firmware and player app if a deal is made.

Of course, given that the XBox 2 will begin its lifespan with multiple versions (with hard drive and without) and Sony chose a new CEO from the evil^Wmusic side of the business while simultaneously demoting Kutaragi, it's possible that later packages (for XBox) or corporate skulduggery (for PS) could lead to a change---this change would just, in either case, be a poor business decision.

Re:Too late?

[Wesley Felter]

One rumor that's going around is that Toshiba will kill HD-DVD, Blu-ray will be renamed HD-DVD, and Toshiba will get a cut of the royalties on the "converged" format. This would require no technical changes.

Re:Too late?

[RabidMoose]

The XBox2 won't come into play here at all. Microsoft has said that it's going to use plain old DVD-9 for the new console to cut hardware costs.

FrankenDVD...

[ackthpt]

FrankenDVD... it was born on a cold slab of stone, when Drs. Sony and Toshiba concurred. Hundreds knew better, thousands said it was unnatural and against nature, millions didn't care as long as they could watch Star Wars: Episode VII, Revenge of the Return of the Imperial Jedi Sith...

See villagers...

See Torches...

See lightning flash and hear thunder roll...

See the monster fill a small screen near you

Scream in terror as you re-purchase all your DVD collection, while in a dark sinister lab, the next format is considered...

RATED: R

Re:FrankenDVD...

[Anonymous Coward]

KRYTEN: Frankenstein was the creator, not the monster. It's a common misconception, held by all truly stupid people.

Re:FrankenDVD...

[tm2b]

I'm pretty sure that should have started with:

IN A WORLD...

Re:FrankenDVD...

[mmkkbb]

And? You've still left room in your lousy argument for all truly brilliant people to hold that misconception too.

Franken* is the doctor's brand name. Remove the stick from your behind. If you miss it, there are more comfortable synthetic alternatives in a variety of colors.

Re:FrankenDVD...

[silicon not in the v]

I'm pretty sure that should have started with:

IN A WORLD...

Funniest movie trailer I've ever seen. It's for the movie "Comedian", starring Jerry Seinfeld. It's filming in a sound studio where that guy who does all the movie trailer voice-overs is recording one for "Comedian". They keep rejecting his cheesy starting lines like "In a world..." NO! "In a land..." No. "In a time..."

Re:FrankenDVD...

[cpt kangarooski]

Well, he only ever created the one, but his treatment of it and his failure to even take significant efforts toward protecting his family, probably make the doctor a monster as well.

Finally,

[darthgnu]

My DVD burning buying descision will turn out to be simpler. I have hesitated in the past because of the price and the 15 current "standards". Cheers to Sony and Toshiba !

Isn't this collusion?

[DoorFrame]

I clearly do not fully understand how anti-monopoly laws work, but aren't competing companies prohibited from doing exactly this? Instead of each company selling it's product and letting the market decide which is better, they're working together to restrain the industry and keeping products that might benefit the consumer off the market. Isn't that collusion? Isn't it illegal?

Someone please explain why it's not, I really would appreciate it (not kidding here, genuinely cuious).

Re:Isn't this collusion?

[MindStalker]

Working together to create a standard definatly isn't collusion. Working together to set prices is.

Re:Isn't this collusion?

[DeathFlame]

Your not allowed to price fix.

Your allowed to share, or develop technology together.

Re:Isn't this collusion?

[HTL2001]

they are agreeing to make a standard by merging the 2 types of disks, so they will have a standard and volume sales

last I checked, more than 1 company sold CD-R's. basicly this is what they want to do with the new DVD's, they want it so not just 1 company can make them (and therefore use them, ==more volume)

Re:Isn't this collusion?

[Mycroft_VIII]

I can't speak athouratatively (IANAL, etc.), and most certainly not about non-US laws, but as I understand it monopolies are allowed (in some cases at least), they just fall under much tighter rules and such when they occure.
Microsoft didn't get in trouble for being a monopoly, but doing illeagle things with thier monopoly derived powers.
Plus I don't think this is a monopoly situation in any case, it's more of a standard format that everyone can compete under. For example no-one seriously complains about the keyboard monopoly, yet 'multi-media' buttons aside most keyboards follow the same general qwerty layout with the row of function keys at the top, the arrow keys in the lower right and the numpad in the far right and so on.
They only way this could be a monopoly is if only ONE source to aquire the disk's and players existed.

Mycroft

Re:Isn't this collusion?

[StikyPad]

"I can't speak athouratatively"

You can't even spell authoritatively.

Sorry, someone had to do it.

The best hybrid

[silid]

why not just use Blu-Ray technolgy and HD-DVD name (silid's idea)

Lets have one technology and an agreed royalty share - an effective buy-out. At least this way it will save millions in marketing in a format war, and both groups get a degree of guarenteed success.

and more importantly will allow me to enjoy the format sooner as i won't have to wait for winner.

Wasted R&D?

[PornMaster]

Even if they end up using a hybrid of the two, the R&D isn't wasted. Along the way, both companies have learned a lot, including finding out a lot of things that *didn't* work.

A lot of R&D is failing and figuring out why.

It's not like we're talking about Xerox PARC, where Corporate wasted the opporunity to commercialize the wonderful things which were developed. A compromise on the new DVD format will still bring both companies/consortia licensing revenue.

Which, of course, begs the obvious question -- if they're both contributing IP, will they both be charging royalties and price the technology too high?

Re:Wasted R&D?

[Kenshin]

Which, of course, begs the obvious question -- if they're both contributing IP, will they both be charging royalties and price the technology too high?

If they both contribute to the standard, they'll probably setup a consortium or holding company (I don't know the exact term) that collects royalties on their behalf.

Re:Wasted R&D?

[Felmir]

Which, of course, begs the obvious question -- if they're both contributing IP, will they both be charging royalties and price the technology too high?

Yes, and if they both force it, is it possible to monopolize on this kind of thing?

A solution for the HD-DVD naming confusion

[Vroem]

Will we also see a specification for the new audio and video formats on the old DVD discs?

That seems to be the meaning that apple gives to the term "HD DVD". Which is why I never liked the brand HD-DVD for a new otical format.

n-squared?

[stevenharman]

Uh, wait... so we just went from 2 competing formats (Blu-Ray and HD DVD) to 4 (Blu-Ray, HD DVD, Blu-Ray+HD DVD, and HD DVD+Blu-Ray)? Thats an n-squared rate of growth. Surely someone could come up with something more efficient, along the lines of nLog(n) perhaps?

Re:n-squared?

[omegacentrix]

I guess I'm just being picky about it, but from two data points you can't possibly determine n-squared or n*ln n rate of growth. Heck this could simply be linear... pretty soon we'll have Purple-Ray, Gamma-Ray, and maybe even the Death-Ray. =)

Re:n-squared?

[PateraSilk]

No, you got the marketing brands wrong. That would be Purpl-Ray(R), Gama-Ray(R) and Deth-Ray(R).

A better idea!

[erroneus]

Let's have representatives from each side to fight it out to the death! I haven't seen a good death match in a very long time.

Re:A better idea!

[ForestGrump]

Then maybe you should order this.

Blu-Ray all the way!

[TheCamper]

I'm in favor of all out Blu-Ray. Blu-Ray is an actual technology to fit more data onto a disk. HD DVD is simply a format. You can still store HD DVD format using Blu-Ray technology. Also, HD DVD uses red lasers, and can only store between 4 and 7 gigs per disk. Blu-Ray can store 25 gigs on a one layered disk, 50 gigs on a dual layered disk.

Re:Blu-Ray all the way!

[tsalem]

Wrong. It uses a blue laser, and is 15 GB for a single-sided disc and 30 for dual-sided. I agree that Blu-Ray is better, but try and get the facts straight.

Re:Blu-Ray all the way!

[Beatnik6]

Actually, HD-DVD uses the a 405nm blue laser, as Blu-Ray does, and stores 15GB (single-layer) or 30GB (dual-layer) per disc. The discs themselves have significantly different configurations, which is why the storage capabilies are different. Regards...

Re:Blu-Ray all the way!

[Carrot007]

They are refering to the 2 new BLUE LASER formats, they may be technically using incorrect terminology but I don't see how anyone who had actually read the article could come up with any other thought!

I Quote "At the core of both formats are blue lasers", sounds pretty obvious to me, you are probably the only person who got the wrong end of the stick!

Better luck next time.

Re:Blu-Ray all the way!

[Hadlock]

WTF? I'm calling bullshit. A regular dual layer DVD like LOTR you can buy at walmart is alreay 9.5gigs; HD-DVD is much closer to 25 gigs, while Blu-Ray is 49, with 80somthing when using dual layer, and 300gig discs in a couple years (But still playable on first gen Blu-Ray disc players). The only difference is that HD-DVDs are more physically similar, meaning less retooling will have to occur. Blu-Ray is almost a completely different animal.

Re:Blu-Ray all the way!

[TheCamper]

Ahh, I see. I must have been looking at an outdated website. http://www.hddvd.org/hddvd/difformatsblueray.php. Still, blu-ray is much better all around. But thanks on the correction.

They're wasting their time

[w.p.richardson]

These new disc formats are all dead in the long run.

Perhaps not immediately, but within a few years a system will exist which will allow the streaming of any movie ever made via broadband instantly. Why would you want to bother keeping an anachronistic collection of shiny discs, when you could have anything you want, instantly.

These format wars will all look quaint in a few years when the bandwidth for home delivery of such a system is widely available.

Re:They're wasting their time

[darthgnu]

Yes, and where do you put your backups of your terabytes of "data" ?

Re:They're wasting their time

[JadeNB]

Perhaps not immediately, but within a few years a system will exist which will allow the streaming of any movie ever made via broadband instantly. Why would you want to bother keeping an anachronistic collection of shiny discs, when you could have anything you want, instantly.

Because, as we've seen, the trend in streaming media is towards temporary ownership. Sure, with DVDs, my ownership options are (supposed to be) limited -- I can't copy it, &c. -- but at least I have it forever (or at least as long as the media lasts). I'm sure still more restrictions will be in place with these new discs, but, judging from the previous market failure of `temporary discs', at least I will still have them forever.

With streaming media, it seems likely that we'd see a `pay-per-view' set-up. Besides that, what about out-of-print movies? If I buy a DVD and the manufacturer stops printing those DVDs, I can still watch it -- but what if I want to stream a DVD no one wants to host? We could lose a lot of important movies this way.

Re:They're wasting their time

[El]

Why would you want to bother keeping an anachronistic collection of shiny discs, when you could have anything you want, instantly. Because I can watch that shiny disc practically as many times as I want without incurring any additional cost, wheras I'm sure the RIAA will find a way to ding me every time I download that movie again? To say nothing of the fact that fedexing a box of discs will probably always have more bandwidth and cheaper cost per bit than any "pipe" that streams bits to my home?

Re:They're wasting their time

[eggoeater]

...and also in a few (more) years longhorn will be out and be so bloated it'll require the new formats to distribute it.

Re:They're wasting their time

[dunc78]

Well, I'd imagine it would be the MPAA and not the RIAA charging you for the movie. Also, are you going to watch the entire box of discs instantly or in super fast forward? If not, a pipe with enough bandwidth to support the data rate of the disc would be fine.

Re:They're wasting their time

[skubeedooo]

It depends on whether bandwidth advances outpace disc capacity advances. With HDTV and UHDTV on the horizon, content distributors may not have a problem filling up your pipe (so to speak) for some time to come.

With 33 megapixels at 60fps, that's quite a lot of bandwidth. AFAIK there are still some parts of england that can't even get affordable 512k, so it may be some time before they are getting Gb connections.

Re:They're wasting their time

[RichMeatyTaste]

Just like DVD's killed VHS tapes right?
Oh wait....
/Yes I know VHS sales have slowed, but they are still out there is pretty big numbers

Re:They're wasting their time

[El]

I dunno, what's more likely to fail in the middle of watching a movie... that shiny disc, or my cable connection? (Hint: I have Comcast. It craps out all the time.) Perhaps some of us would rather know we can finish watching a movie before we start. (You're obviously right about MPAA instead of RIAA, I should have said "*AA" instead.)

Re:They're wasting their time

[Krehbiel]

within a few years a system will exist which will allow the streaming of any movie ever made via broadband instantly. Why would you want to bother keeping an anachronistic collection of shiny discs, when you could have anything you want, instantly

Because you won't get to OWN it. Streaming-online-media will be PAY-PER-VIEW.

Re:They're wasting their time

[silicon not in the v]

I dunno, what's more likely to fail in the middle of watching a movie... that shiny disc, or my cable connection? (Hint: I have Comcast. It craps out all the time.) Perhaps some of us would rather know we can finish watching a movie before we start.

More likely to fail in the middle? (Hint: My cable connection doesn't stop playing from scratches and smudges all over it.)

By the way, I'm not actually in favor of the streaming method because of the repeating charge of a pay-per-view type of system; I was just pointing out that reliability doesn't seem like a point in the disc's favor.

Re:They're wasting their time

[lee1026]

They can always have you save the thing on your hard drive. that way you can open a file whenever you want or need to.

Two companies working together?

[BlackMesaResearchFac]

Vizzini: Inconceivable!

Re:Two companies working together?

[El]

You use that word a lot... I do not think it means what you think it means!

Re:Two companies working together?

[Drooling Iguana]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
</obligatory follow-up quote>

Re:Two companies working together?

[carlcmc]

I do not think that you know what the word means... oh whoops, that was appropos wasn't it :-)

Re:Two companies working together?

[silicon not in the v]

Let's see, three unnecessary follow up quotes to detail the reference. Let's check them out, shall we?

by El (94934) on Thursday April 21, @11:29AM (#12303932)
You use that word a lot... I do not think it means what you think it means!

Mm, good intentions, but a C+ for accuracy.

by Drooling Iguana (61479) on Thursday April 21, @12:06PM (#12304287)
[obligatory follow-up quote]
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
[/obligatory follow-up quote]

OK, we've got good use of sarcastic non-standard HTML tags, and the accurate text of the quote. It looks like Drooling Iguana stands a chance to go the distance here, folks.

by carlcmc (322350) on Thursday April 21, @01:03PM (#12304910)
I do not think that you know what the word means... oh whoops, that was appropos wasn't it :-)

Uh, did this one get run through Babelfish and back or something? I'm going to have to give this about a 1.6 for technique.

And the winner is El(94934)!

Good and bad

[bobbis.u]

Whilst I welcome this news, isn't it a bit late?

I can just imagine a last-minute solution that aims to keep the suits happy in all companies involved (so that they save face). This compromise could result in a poorly thought out and badly designed standard.

A little later, someone will release another (better) standard and we will be back to square one of having two similar but incompatible standards.

Not in "a few years".

[James A. Y. Joyce]

In order to download a movie "instantly", you need a lot of bandwidth. To download a 1Gb movie in 1 second requires an 8Gbps connection. This is not going to be available affordably to the average person within the next 10 years, at least. As is, it costs maybe $20 a month to get an 8 megabit per second connection, and everyone knows it takes a very very long time to overhaul data transmission infrastructure.

Re:Not in "a few years".

[mzwaterski]

Wow, you are pretty impatient if you need the movie to be there in 1 second!

Seeing as the movie is at least an hour long, why are you in such a rush? If movies could download in 1 minute, I'd be pretty satisfied. Thats only about 133 Gbps if I did my math correct for 1 GB of data.

But in reality, who needs it to be there in a minute anyway. As long as the system is decent enough to stream starting at any point in the movie you choose, you really only need to be able to download 1GB in 45 minutes (a little buffer time is always good). By my math thats about 3Mbps. HEY, I have one of those...

PS: lowercase b is bit, uppercase B is byte, your numbers would make more sense if you differentiated.

Re:Not in "a few years".

[thpr]

I agree with your conclusion, but take issue with how you define "instantly". From a practical perspective, the tipping point is likely where you can reliably (99.9% of the time) download a movie reasonably faster than you can watch it (1.5X to 2X real speed). This allows you to pause, even fast forward to a degree without a problem.

From a deployment perspective, this is already happening with optical networks in some communitites. This is a problem in communities without pre-deployed fiber, as some companies have been adept at striking sewer lines when trying to bury the fiber. It's also really expensive to dig a ditch (think of SBC as a legal team adept at public permitting and policy that happens to sell voice services)... As you point out, it is this constraint on the speed which controls the deployment of fiber.

The solution in those areas is VDSL or some derivative that will support a very high speed connection over copper. Fiber is then run into the community, and the copper used over the last few hundred feet. (In a community like mine, there are lots of green cabinets all over the place to facilitate this - all the wires are buried)

So realistically, you need between 8Mb/s and 40Mb/s (depending on quality and compression) to stream an HD channel. Assuming deployment rate at the same pace that ADSL rolled out (not unreasonable), that means it will be about 2012 before 50% of US homes have this bandwidth... and that's over a WIRED connection. I still can't stream that into a plane, bus, or other area where carrying a small CD/DVD-sized object is trivial.

It is highly likely that there will be a significant market for "HD DVD" (whichever format wins) at least through the beginning to middle of the next decade. The challenge after that is whether quality improvement can even be perceived by people (note how monitors really slowed in development after XGA was pervasive). Of course, if you're into speculation, anything 3D could eat up a huge quantity of bandwidth and storage REALLY fast.

Re:Not in "a few years".

[MBGMorden]

ISP's are notorious for overselling bandwidth though. An application like video on demand would have a lot larger userbase than the current Bittorrent downloaders do. The current ISP's will gripe and moan to no end if you constantly max out the 3Mbps connection. Imagine the situation if at least a quarter of their customers were using that much bandwidth. The infrastructure could never handle it.

By that token, we are many years away from being able to reliably do video-on-demand to a large customer base.

There's also the fact that people just are not going to pay per view for ever. The current model works for new releases, but for certain movies people want to be able to just buy and have a copy to watch whenever they want. That's not going to work with video on demand.

Analogy as analysis

[biryokumaru]

Together they taste like crap.

I don't know anything about the format structure, but I think it's important to consider the price of production in relation to the real applicability of the benefits of either drive.

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/1290 58.html

Of course, this may turn out like "640k should be enough for anybody" if we go with HD DVD... =/

Re:Analogy as analysis

[Leiterfluid]

You misspelled existence in your sig.

Re:Analogy as analysis

[biryokumaru]

Thanks!

This is not collusion

[ekuns]

Collusion is illegal when companies are working together to keep another company's product off the market by predatory pricing, for example. But when two companies (or consortiums) work together to choose a common standard, that is just plain good sense. The companies are wisely (I hope) seeing that the market will not welcome competing standards, and that the market (and thus their pocketbooks) are bettered by there being exactly one new DVD standard. There is no illegal activity here because no-one is being prevented from doing anything and they are not controlling prices by choosing to implement a common standard. There is no anti-competitive behavior.

Now, if the companies fixed the pricing of this standard and refused to allow anyone to undercut the pricing and used their size in the marketplace to control the availability and cost of the new DVD players, that could be collusion. If they were somehow working together (like a cartel) to prevent another company from competing in the marketspace, that might be collusion. (Depending on the tactics, etc.) However, just agreeing on a common standard does not collusion make.

Re:This is not collusion

[MarkGriz]

"However, just agreeing on a common standard does not collusion make."

Right. The first step is to hammer out the details of the DVD format.

Fixing the prices on the DVDs will have to wait until next year.

Re:This is not collusion

[Anonymous Coward]

Generally you're right that a common standard isn't anti-competitive, but that's ignoring the implications of DRM.

If the standard they choose contains a mandatory DRM system, and if competitors are required by law (under the DMCA and software patent law) to have a license in order to join the monopolized market, it is effectively, if not legally, collusion.

Re:This is not collusion

[bit01]

Agreed, standards are not collusion, but unfortunately it's not that simple. Companies form oligopolies that charge oligopoly prices for licensing the patent pool in the "industry standard". Price fixing by another name and yet another reason why patent law is in urgent need of major reform.

---

Copyright is a privilege, not a right.

Re:This is not collusion

[DA-MAN]

Collusion is illegal when companies are working together to keep another company's product off the market by predatory pricing, for example.

Hmm... Isn't that what Microsoft does at the mere mention of Linux?

Bah...

[rwven]

I think they need to trash discs as a whole and record everything on little green holographic cubes... How stinking cool would that be. :-P Funny that i saw this done on TV like 7 years ago....and nothing has really come from it at all. Kinda makes me wonder why.

Re:Bah...

[netrage_is_bad]

Because that is what the US government uses.

Re:Bah...

[n0dnarb]

Have you ever tried to cram those little green cubes on a spindle before?

Color me skeptical

[argent]

They're each talking about keeping their own core hardware and layering the other's controllers and software on top of them. But of course it's the hardware that's the key piece. If they use the same core technology it doesn't matter much what the rest is: they could easily produce a dual-format drive with the rest of the differences fudged in firmware.

So it sounds like they're both saying "Be reasonable, do it my way".

Re:Color me skeptical

[javaxman]

So it sounds like they're both saying "Be reasonable, do it my way".

Every single article out there was generated by exactly one source, an article in a single Japanese business rag. Every other publication is just reporting on that single article.

I don't think for a second that Sony is going to back away from yet another proprietary format. That's not what they do. *If* a 'new format' comes out of any talks, it's going to be Sony's, by and large. That, or we'll see two formats.

One thing is not going to happen: the PS3 is not going to be delayed by this. It might be delayed, but not by this...

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

The best format of all...

[PFritz21]

...would be one that allows me to buy a single season of a one-hour drama on 1 to 2 discs for no more that an average price of $10/disc. Maybe $15 if it's only a single disc. I don't want to spend $51 for Stargate SG-1, $75 for CSI, or $106 for Star Trek Voyager.

Re:The best format of all...

[MattyDK23]

...would be one that allows me to buy a single season of a one-hour drama on 1 to 2 discs for no more that an average price of $10/disc. Maybe $15 if it's only a single disc. I don't want to spend $51 for Stargate SG-1, $75 for CSI, or $106 for Star Trek Voyager.

You do realize that you're paying for the intellectual content of the show, and not the media on which it resides?

Blank DVD's are dirt cheap. Same with audio CD's. The high cost is because of the material that's on it. It's not like few DVDs cost the studios $40, and the remaining $10 is the data on the disc; quite the opposite.

Re:The best format of all...

[Mustang Matt]

The price of boxed sets have very little to do with the cost of the media.

Re:The best format of all...

[drinkypoo]

You're paying for the intellectual content? So, stargate is priced about right, CSI should be about $25, and they should be paying me to take Voyager?

This can only mean one thing..

[McNally]

This can only mean one thing.. They've decided to join forces against their common enemy -- the consumer..

Re:This can only mean one thing..

[nytes]

The parent is rated "funny".

Am I the only one that thinks that any format that Sony agrees to will have "screw the consumer" as one of the chief design requirements?

Re:This can only mean one thing..

[alexhs]

> unified DVD arch which could use "Blu-ray's disc structure and HD DVD software technology" (Sony's idea) or "HD DVD disc structure and employing Sony's multi-layer data-recording technology" (Toshiba's idea)"

Then we will have Blu-Ray (Sony), HD-DVD (Toshiba), and the two newer Blu+Ray (Sony/Toshiba) and HD+DVD (Toshiba/Sony)

And then will be the hell of writer's speeds :
CD/CD-R/CD-RW/DVD/DVD-R/DVD+R/DVD-RW/DVD+RW/BR/ BR- R/BR-RW/HD/HD-R/HD-RW/BR+R/BR+RW/HD+R/HD+RW
and do not forget the speed of 2nd layer when applicable...

And what about Philips's yet unrevealed new media ?

Re:This can only mean one thing..

[Kanasta]

If HD DVD is going to be released anyway, and PS3 is going to use bluray anyway, and THEN they:re going to unify a format...

Doesn:t that mean we:ll have 3 formats???

Better solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's let the Chineese come up with a OPEN solution that doesn not belong to anyone and has no royalties attached to it.

i'm betting THAT one would be accepted by everyone within minutes.

Not in this lifetime

[mrRay720]

Prices are not even remotely linked to media costs/capacity! DVDs cost LESS to make yet sell for MORE than VHS. CDs cost LESS to make yet sold for MORE than audio tape.

If they want to charge you a lot for it, they still will. You erally think the scum will say "oh, since it all fits on one disc now instead of 4 saving us $0.40, we'll only charge you $20 instead of $100?"

HAHAHAHAHA! Not likely. Saddam becoming the next Pope was a much safer bet than that. Reality is that what you'll hear from their mouths is "BluHDRayDVD is 100x better, so we'll charge you 2x as much. You win by a factor of 50, aren't we kind?"

Re:Not in this lifetime

[tukkayoot]

Though he makes a good point. If you're going to go through the trouble of creating a new media format/standard, don't make it so it's only barely adequate to handle the needs of a single 2 hour movie in high def -- make it overkill so you don't have to replace the standard again in six years and so we can fit an entire television series (plus commentary) on a one or two disc set.

It took long enough for the DVD to penetrate the market, even though it is vastly superior to VHS. Why take only a small evolutionary step forward with the next video format? Do they really think anybody but early adopters are going to flock to these new formats, especially if there is even a hint of standards war? These relatively small small improvements on the DVD, to me would only seem to ensure that by the time the technology becomes widespread, it will already be on the verge of obsolesce.

Re:Not in this lifetime

[akadruid]

Also...

Movie DVDs cost almost the same to make as music CDs, yet on DVDs you get $50-100 million budget projects, content of more length and much higher quality AND you can buy them for similar or lower prices, rent them cheaply and conviently, and they're not subject to so much competition from transfer over the net and copying on home computers.

So there really is no relation between costs of creation and media prices.

Movies, due their quality, pricing, and availability are almost competitive with piracy. CDs are a laughing stock, dependent only on total monopoly control over vast distribition channels - the same cartel owns 95% of all music sold, plus radio, tv, magazines, music shops and more, and on corrupt government support.

I have a compromise

[the_Bionic_lemming]

We allow them to use either DVD technology - as long as the one that's not used gets 75% of the profits.

We stay 50/50 on the storage medium - sign that into law, and see which corporation switches it's stance faster.

Maybe for somebody with a FAST connection

[crovira]

but for the remaining 90% of the planet, its a big deal because they won't have to be limited (or sold an unplayable disk,) by the manufacturers.

Your argument doesn't cut any ice apart from those lucky enough to have been born in the right place.

Ever try to use an appliance bought in Europe (220 volts) in America (110 volts)? How about, ever had to suport two Vvltage standards?

That's a problem for the Chinese and everybody else who works in a global marketplace. Its ineffficient and leads to duplication of resurces.

For them both, its a win because, for the consumer it means not discovering thay the shiny new disk they just paid for, that said it what ever format it was, film or other data, was actually a skeet target.

I care.

[Mustang Matt]

I'm not sure if you just haven't seen high resolution video or if you truly don't care, but I've seen it and I care. The fact that HD TV signal over the air is higher resolution (better quality compression) than what is on DVD bothers me.

I want to watch my movies with more definition and I realize that's not 100% reliant on the media but they will release higher def video on this new media.

Re:I care.

[Hadlock]

I want to watch my movies with more definition and I realize that's not 100% reliant on the media but they will release higher def video on this new media.

what? did you even read what you wrote? Either you're stating the obvious (higher definition video on new media formats that were designed with the inherent purpose of having higher definition video), or you completely and utterly failed to make your point (although you seem both stoic and steadfast in your crusade). Maybe you'll rephrase this for the english speaking netizens of slashdot like I that can't decipher your grammar?

Re:I care.

[Mustang Matt]

Which words didn't you understand "the" or "is"?

Re:I care.

[Hadlock]

Well your first "paragraph" says (basically) that over the air media produces higher image quality than you can purchase and you're dissapointed with the quality of DVDs. I understand that much. I don't understand why you're stating the obvious in the second "paragraph", which maybe you can clear up for me, because it sounds like you're trying to say somthing more than the obvious, just that it came out that way, and I'm trying to understand.

To awnser your question (I guess), since there is no "is" in the sentence I quoted, I didn't understand the "the".

Re:I care.

[Mustang Matt]

Try this one out:

I want to watch my movies with more definition. I realize that more definition is not 100% reliant on the new media, however, they will release higher def. video on this new media.

Re:cost??

[necronom426]

Really?

I prefer whichever is the best (usually the most expensive). I've always been like that. Sometimes it's also the most popular, and sometimes it isn't, but as long as I'm happy I don't really mind.

I got a C64 (instead of a Spectrum), an Amiga (instead of an ST), a Betamax (instead of VHS), a widescreen TV (instead of a 3:4 one), surround sound (instead of stereo), Opera web browser (instead of IE), etc.

In the end, if the cheaper option doesn't do what you want, then you have wasted your money. If you get the best and pay a bit more, you have something that has given you more value for money. That's the way I see it anyway.

---
Help me get a free Opera licence. Click here. It just takes you to their site - nothing nasty. Close the page after that.

online content

[Tumbleweed]

When you get your content, or your applications, online, you are then at the mercy of:

1) He who controls where the content or apps are stored, controls YOU.
2) Your connetion (being up or down, or slow, or high latency)
3) Security issues

But, if you like all that, feel free to check out the Phantom gaming system; you'd probably like it. :)

Sorry, was that rated R+ or R- ?

[Myriad]

RATED: R

Sorry, just to clarify... was that R+ or R-?

Blockwars: Multiplayer Tetris like game

Re:Sorry, was that rated R+ or R- ?

[ackthpt]

RATED: R

Sorry, just to clarify... was that R+ or R-?

Actually, having to re-purchase your DVD collection should be Rated: Argh!

Re:Fuck, who cares?

[drinkypoo]

DVDs look like shit. Even in the best encoding jobs you can see artifacting. They are a small slice (about 1/4 resolution, IIRC) of full-HD video. There are actually movies that come on multiple DVDs, perhaps you've seen some of them? We've more than fully exploited the potential of current DVDs, and it's time to move on. This would not be necessary if HD had come out before DVD, but it didn't, so it is.

Me too.

[benow]

I've a project in the line for archiving 10's of TB of data. Current solutions for accessing such a quantity of data are expensive and often without migration path. Blu-Ray/HD-DVD with >50G/disk brings all the benefits of higher data density. Less robotics, less media, quicker access, etc. In addition, other issues such as data permanance, thruput and migration paths can be rolled into the new technology. New media is important, and higher density media will become more and more important, especially with HD content rolling out, DVD-A, SACD, multi-channel video and continued digitization and archiving of existing analog data. I see multi-terabyte storage solutions becoming commonplace within 5 years, and those those currently large archives will get even bigger. Software and platforms for management of such a quantity of data are evolving and work hand-in-hand with larger density storage. It's quite important, and I'm glad to see the two main research groups pooling their talent.

Blu-Ray wins!

[Qzukk]

While I could care less what "data format" is used, the Blu-Ray disc itself is far superior in capacity and data rate, and I'm glad it won.

With a paltry 15mbit per second, HD-DVD's disc would not have a high enough data rate to encode 1080p video in MPEG4 (or any other codec) at any reasonable quality, essentially crippling HD until the next generation. (For comparison, the highest bitrate allowed in DVD video is 10mbit. D-VHS allows 30 mbit, Blu-Ray allows over 50mbit (section 3, bottom of page 5))

Of course, more space per disc is always nice. Whether you're just trying to cram the Janitor's Commentary track into the extras, or providing Star Trek with a Klingon subtitle track, every little bit helps. More space also allows for movies to use that 50mbps data rate for longer periods of time. Fans of superbit DVDs would drool all over the promise of superbit Blu-Ray discs.

Re:Blu-Ray wins!

[bill_mcgonigle]

I could care less what "data format" is used

Are you sure about that? HD-DVD means a royalty to Microsoft for every unit sold.

Re:Blu-Ray wins!

[Wesley Felter]

Blu-ray requires the same royalty, since it includes VC-1.

Re:Blu-Ray wins!

[jabuzz]

No actually, what will win is on of the upcomming holgraphic discs, that have capacities that make both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD look positively anemic.

Re:Blu-Ray wins!

[bill_mcgonigle]

Well, crap.

I see VC-9 is also required in the BD-ROM format too.

Well played, Microsoft. I'm going to live in the woods.

Re:Blu-Ray wins!

[evilviper]

Microsoft gets a piece of license fees for MPEG-4, too, since they hold at least one of the patents.

VP6 is probably the only high-end format around where Microsoft isn't getting any money out of it.

Re:Blu-Ray wins!

[dvdeug]

Whether you're just trying to cram the Janitor's Commentary track into the extras, or providing Star Trek with a Klingon subtitle track, every little bit helps

It's all about the video quality, and a little about the audio. A full audio track for an hour and a half, in 224 kbit/s AAC (which seems pretty standard) takes up 148 MB. I doubt anyone is begging for more, at least not on the Janitor's Commentary track. The subtitle track is a couple megabytes; the cost of translating and the limited interest in making world-wide DVDs is the main limit on the number of subtitles on the disk. That's a couple minutes of DVD-quality video for each audio track, and a couple seconds for each subtitle track. The extra space is all for the video.

Re:Blu-Ray wins!

[Qzukk]

Ah it seems I was off. The blu-ray site uses "data rate" in their tables for both "per layer capacity" and the actual "data rate".

Still, broadcast HDTV uses 24mbps and is only able to broadcast up to 1080i. A 1080p encoding would likely max out the HD-DVD's capabilities, and that's before we start adding in alternate audio tracks, angles, and subtitles, which when using mpeg or another multiplexed codec all have to be read into the player in real time, then demuxed to get the appropriate video, audio, and subtitle streams for playback.

So by pointing out my error, you've upgraded HD-DVD from "crippled" to "mediocre", and I'm still glad the Blu-Ray physical spec won.

Re:cost??

[necronom426]

Because I can't run all the software I want to use on a Mac. Macs are great (my brother has one), but not everything is compatible and not many games come out for them.

Also, I didn't say money was no object. You could say "why not buy a supercomputer as they are better than a PC or Mac". I should have said "within reason". The optimum usefulness/price balance, rather than just "give me the cheap one". Sometimes the cheap one IS the best, but I would never just get something BECAUSE is was the cheapest. I used my Amiga every day until December 2000 because it did what I wanted. I had to spend more to upgrade it than a PC, but I found it more usefull and nicer to use. Once that changed and I couldn't do what I wanted, I got a PC.

---
Help me out. Click here to give me a point. If I get 250, I get a free licence.

One problem.

[dmaxwell]

I don't EVER want to see this just when the movie is getting really good: ...buffering 20% ...buffering 22% .........

Re:One problem.

[mzwaterski]

Ok, you won't

hurry up already

[l0perb0y]

They're going to screw around and screw around and, this time next year, holographic storage will beat them to the punch with a much greater storage capacity.

Is the market really ready?

[faust2097]

I'm still not convinced that we even need a next-generation format. HDTV is insanely scarce outside of the US [and most "HDTV" units already in the US are 480P EDTV anyway and most of the ones that actually are HD are rear projection units sitting in sunny rooms with the factory settings intact] and DVD is the most successful format in history. Obviously Hollywood wouldn't mind due to what I'm sure is much stronger DRM on new formats but we currently have two superior formats to CD and for consumers the convenience of lower-quality sound from digital files is winning out. Only a tiny percentage of audio nerds [and it's even a fraction of them because many audiophiles are terrified of any digital equipment] have bought into the new formats and they're people who ahve no problems with rebuying their favorite music over and over. The same may happen with movies.

Look at Laserdisc - far better picture and sound than VHS, no rewinding and pretty good studio support for a while but the cost, convenience and durability advantages of tapes won out in the end.

Re:Is the market really ready?

[mankey wanker]

This is what I was getting at above, by I guess my shorthand description wasn't wordy enough. PGP, CRT, VHS and MP3 are all proof that a certain point of quality is "good enough" for most people, and most people is the target market. Some technically superior but expensive alternative to the sufficient quality good enough for most people will fail because there is no market for it - or at best it is a very small market.

Duh.

Storage Technology up in the Air

[fedrive]

When it is all done and said, " I dont know if
Blu-Ray / HD-DVD, Holographic Storage or some
other technology will rule the day."

We all need to stay tuned because the storage
landscape is about ready for a Tsunami Attack.

Interesting Thought...

[bigtrouble77]

Could Sony be doing this to delay the XBox360 release? Microsoft has been gaining a ton of momentum with software developers of late, something it never had with the current xbox.

Microsoft will most definately hold off releaseing the next xbox if the new DVD standard's release is impending. That'll give Sony a nice window to get caught up.

It's a bold move, but I think it could help Sony immensely if the timing is right.

Possible Explanation Re:Does format matter?

[mihalis]

This article although informative, didn't do the best job in technical explanations, that is when I spotted the following line... "A PC maker, for example, would not have to equip its computers with hard drives compatible with both formats".

[I added double quotes to the quote from the article]

Some people I know refer to the PC case as the "hard drive". If that was the sense in which hard drive was used in this article, then it translates to saying that this merger would avoid PCs having to have multiple high-def DVD drives, which makes sense and would be "A Good Thing" (tm)

I thought the pr0n industry had decided this

[wsanders]

What happened to the rumor that the porn industry had gotten together and decided to support [one format or the other]? Thus the rest of the media would follow since they represent 1/[your number between 1 and 6 here] of all DVDs sold.

Well it makes a good story anyway.

I don't care what physical format is used...

[Game Genie]

Just as long as the data is encoded in the format that DVD Jon favors.

Re:cost??

[kinadian]

I think cost is really only a factor when starting out. Just like any technology released, the more it's used, the cheaper it becomes.

I would rather have the better technology become the standard (whether it's Blue-Ray, HD-DVD or a combination of both). Whichever one becomes the standard, will be cheap eventually.

Trouble with HD-DVD (tin-foil hat time)

[Anonymous Coward]

The trouble with HD-DVD is that its capacity is insufficient for 3 hours of true HDTV (in fact, its barely sufficient for 2 hours).

Just a guess is that Hollywood would prefer to sell us HD-DVD's (you know, the ones we just bought in DVD format) in some intermediate format, and then in another 5 years, sell us the same movies again in yet a better format.

Plus, it doesn't match up with expectations. If a CD holds 700M and a DVD (single layer) holds 4.7 G, then you expect the information density to increase by a factor of 7 with a new generation. Therefore, you'd expect about 30G from a new format.

HD DVD just doesn't cut it. It doesn't work for data storage, it doesn't work for HDTV.

I don't know anything about Blu-Ray and I frankly don't care. I just know that HD-DVD is too little.

Gimme a blue laser pointer

[ryanvm]

Fuck the drives - I want one of these blue lasers.

Re:cost??

[RicktheBrick]

With all things one must consider more than just the original cost of the device. I see all these duo layer dvd recorder now and wondered if I should buy one of them until I looked into the cost of the blank media. One disk is $7 and is not even rewritable. I just purchased 25 dvd+rw disk for about the same price which means I got over 12 times as much storage. I for one hope that I will not need or want the new disk as I hope that broadband will increase it's speed to the point where I will not need local storage.

All they really have to do...

[Krehbiel]

..is engineer a player that can read both types of physical media, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. They can work on common data formats too if they want (it would probably be nice), but that's just software. A common player is what's REALLY needed.

Once consumers are assured their player can play whatever they buy, there can be two types of media on the market and it's okay. Publishers can use the cheaper or better media; consumers can choose the cheaper titles, or the higher-resolution / higher-bitrate / fewer-compression-artifacts / longer-playing titles (can you guess my favorite? Yep, Blu-Ray).

Re:All they really have to do...

[Reignking]

That's nice in theory, but it doesn't take cost/price into consideration. A combination players will not be cheaper than one that plays one format. Unless you've got some extra money -- the early adapters may, however -- you aren't going to pay for the dual.

Nash's Game Theory

[jafac]

"We both profit more if we cooperate."

Waiting...

[Duncan3]

Until a true 1080p TV costs less then a car, and the next generation media is under a dollar... why should I care exactly?

99% of the 10% of humans that even have a computer, don't care about any of this until it's AFFORDABLE. By which time, the margins will be so low that none of this battle will matter. And I'd bet backups to IDE will still be cheaper TCO-wise.

Also, a system with 10x the storage will be out in a year.

... in Japan

[achurch]

I'm still not convinced that we even need a next-generation format. HDTV is insanely scarce outside of the US

Not here in Japan. I'm not sure whether I want to say "mainstream" quite yet, but the vast majority of TVs being sold these days are HD, and all the major networks have HD channels up and running. In fact, analog signals are scheduled to be phased out by 2010 (or 2011, don't recall which).

Whether that will translate into a desire for HDTV videos remains to be seen, but given the Japanese fascination with new stuff, I expect a fair-sized market to form whenever the content companies see fit to start using the new media. Whether people will go along with the DRM is another question entirely . . .

Re:... in Japan

[timothv]

I've got a high-resolution monitor and a 1024x768 projector. I need high-def content, now.

Re:... in Japan

[PCM2]

Not here in Japan. I'm not sure whether I want to say "mainstream" quite yet, but the vast majority of TVs being sold these days are HD

Worth pointing out at this juncture that the Japanese HDTV standard is incompatible with the American one -- perhaps another reason for slow uptake with consumers worldwide.

Isn't there a St. Ahhhhhves?

[blueZ3]

No sire, "Argh" as in frustration and dismay!

space

[pmsyyz]

As long as it has 50 GB of space and not that wimpy 30 GB that HD-DVD has.

Re:cost??

[Leiterfluid]

If all you're storing is data, that's all well and good. But if you want to make uncompressed (or minmially compressed) copies of commercial dual layer DVDs (for archival purposes of course) then the dual layer recorder is the way to go. Sure, the media is expensive, but so were CD-Rs when they first came out. I bought a dual-layer recorder, and will probably only use dual layer discs to transfer my star wars laserdiscs to DVD, until the media gets cheaper. $79 bucks for a Memorex 16x Dual Layer recorder ain't a bad deal, though.

it dont look like they are working together

[generalleoff]

Ideas floated in the article include a unified DVD arch which could use "Blu-ray's disc structure and HD DVD software technology" (Sony's idea) or "HD DVD disc structure and employing Sony's multi-layer data-recording technology" (Toshiba's idea)"

Looks like they are still fighting.

I second that

[BobPaul]

why not just use Blu-Ray technolgy and HD-DVD name (silid's idea)

Based on what I read, I feel I can safetly say, "Everything about HD-DVD sucks by comparison to Blueray." But, at least if they used Sony's idea (MSTV instead of the Java counterpart) the physical format would remain unchanged, and that is definately the most important aspect (since that's where Blueray really dominates--using JMHP is just a bonus).

Article is Bunk

[zentu]

Sorry for all of you hoping for some Standard, but in one of the professional Home Video (sorry, should say commercial Home video Rental magazines, don't remember which one, my work gets them.) had a talk with Sony head of BluRay Development and had a quote that said

'the only Reconcilement that would be fesible is to have the HD DVD camp Join the BluRay Camp...'

Which I find rather annoying, since I feel that Both Opticle mediums suck, give me flash or some hybridized HDD that would store data.

Re:Fuck, who cares?

[DA-MAN]

There are actually movies that come on multiple DVDs, perhaps you've seen some of them? We've more than fully exploited the potential of current DVDs, and it's time to move on.

They come on multiple dvd's because we are still using MPEG2. The DVD standard itself is fine, just use mpeg4 and you can get longer video at higher quality. It's the codec, not the format.

One word: PRICE

[ssstraub]

1 GB CF $50 1 GB MS $100 I think that pretty much sums it up right there. And that price difference only gets worse (or the MS is nonexistant) for larger sizes.