Mobile Magazine's Notebook Tech Support Reviews

antdude writes "Mobile Magazine tested companies' technical support for their notebooks/laptops. Each test had three calls to each of ten major notebook manufacturers (added three additional vendors since last year). Also, called three third-party providers of PC help. On the whole, what they found was a sea of ignorance -- and annoying fixation with pinning down our name, address, and serial numbers. Things haven't gotten any better since our 2004 test -- and most of the vendors we tested have actually gotten worse..."

Comments

Three samples isn't statistically kosher.

[mellon]

This isn't based on a customer survey - it's based on three contrived problems and the phone calls that went with them. Because of the incredibly small sample, you really can't generalize - the results are essentially random. Too bad, because a lot of people will probably just look at the scorecard and never notice the incredibly lame way they did the survey.

Re:Three samples isn't statistically kosher.

[Anonymous Coward]

especially during passover.

Re:Three samples isn't statistically kosher.

[Anonymous Coward]

Consumer Reports has a somewhat up to date chart of their most recent survey for tech support for Laptops and Desktops.

http://www.consumerreports.org/main/detailv4.jsp?C ONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=596745&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=16 2693

Re:Three samples isn't statistically kosher.

[Bozdune]

Yes, and what's with the "grading" system? I couldn't make any sense of it whatsoever.

At least one of the problems they induced would never, ever happen to a normal person, either.

Here's an idea for their next article: "How Far Can You Drop a Demo Laptop, And What Damage Ensues?" I'm sure it will be equally well-thought-out.

Re:Three samples isn't statistically kosher.

[MoralHazard]

The article never claims to be a statistical study. You don't have to approach the issue in a statistical fashion to obtain an informative result.

The validity of an anecdotal study like this hinges on how strong your expectation of consistent service is. If you have good reason to believe that a single experience is probably representative of most visits, you can have a very small sample and still come back with valid conclusions.

Take restaurant reviewing as an example: The Michelin and Zagat's restaurant reviews are generally based on a single visit to each establishment. (Not only that, but different reviews are performed by different people, presumably with different tastes. But that's a side issue, here.) Each reviewer visits a restaurant and writes up a review of his or her experiences at that place, on that day.

But these restaurant guides are relatively accurate, and quite useful. A restaurant business generally provides consistent customer experiences because they TRY to provide consistent experiences. Fast food takes it to the hilt, but any place is doing it, to some degree. Therefore, you don't really need a sizable sample of identical tests to come up with a conclusion.

It's reasonable to believe that customer service operates the same way: companies generally have consistent hiring policies, management policies, and training regimens for their tech-support people. They tend to pay consistent wages and provide consistent benefits. The computer routing systems that connect you to a tech, and the on-the-phone policies that those techs follow, are also highly consistent. Therefore, it seems like the weight of factors creating the "tech support experience" would provide a consistent result.

Statistical analysis would be more useful for something like "what percentage of shipped laptops by this vendor have quality problems", or "what's the average wait time or problem resolution time for a given type of call." You're focusing on the variations and their magnitude, which are going to be pretty small in comparison to the magnitude of the values themselves.

This article is more like reviewing "how aesthetically pleasing is the laptop's case", or "which laptop model has the best feature set for the money". The latter questions, like the article, are focused on parameters that don't submit well to small measurements, and are not likely to vary that much on an absolute scale from customer to customer.

This isn't the most objective, comprehensive, or thorough study I've ever seen, but it's certainly sufficient as an informative review of laptop tech support. And that's all it claims to be.

Re:Three samples isn't statistically kosher.

[Anti_zeitgeist]

which one of those low graded companies was yours?

Re:Three samples isn't statistically kosher.

[mellon]

Your logic is broken. In the one case, they're asking for recommendations, which as you say can be useful. In the case of the article, they try a couple of bogus tests and rate the companies' service on that basis. This just doesn't tell you anything. With a sample of three, even a really good company is only going to get a good rating if all three of the techs who answer are having really good days. This is just a matter of luck. Granted, if all your techs suck, you can be sure of a bad rating, but if only one of your techs sucks, you're going to get a B- with their scoring system, and if two of them suck, you get a D+. Not every tech is going to do a good job every time, so this amounts to a roll of the dice. With a larger sample size, random chance plays less of a part - if you have consistently good techs, you will get a good score, and if you have consistently bad techs you will get a bad score. Generally speaking it helps to have a non-geek asking, because it is for non-geeks that these services exist. So doing a customer survey really is the best way (probably the only cost-effective way) to get a good answer.

It's pretty striking how differently these same companies rated between Consumer Reports, which does statistical surveys using accepted statistical methods across a large number of customers, versus this magazine article, which followed the "let's try this" methodology.

But as I said in my earlier post, most people, like you, will just look at the results and not at the methodology, so if they follow the recommendations here, they may well be steered toward the worst of all the manufacturers, just because that particular manufacturer had a good run of luck. In all fairness, I don't know what Toshiba's customer support is like, so maybe it'll turn out okay, but if so it'll be blind luck that made it work that way, not any actual attempt to inform the magazine's readers. Which is pretty sad.

Re:Three samples isn't statistically kosher.

[benzapp]

Your logic is broken.

This has to be the most pointless and idiotic reply I have ever read in my life. The poster you responded to gave an extremely detailed description of why a small sample size is sufficient. All you have done is repeat the original statement to which he was replying: Oh, its totally random.

ITS NOT FUCKING RANDOM.

If statisticians can statistically determine who the next president of the United States is by polling 1000 people, I think making 3 calls to a tech support line is more than accurate.

There is absolutely NO reason why a reasonably intelligent individual can't solve the problems presented. If they fail on all three tries, that is the entire system of problem solving fails, then there is a problem.

But as I said in my earlier post, most people, like you, will just look at the results and not at the methodology,

The methadology here is quite simple: Companies have standardized THEIR methodology of providing customer service. Randomness should play little role in deciding the outcome. Difficult questions were selected that the average idiot on the phone can't answer right away. The questions are designed to test the interaction of the entire team. This is not Trivial Pursuit or Jeopardy. The entire system in many cases failed, not just an individual telephone flunky.

You claim the logic is broken, but do you have ANY idea how to judge sample size? How many would be enough for you? 50? 100? 10,000?

I think you need to go back to statistics 101.

Re:Three samples isn't statistically kosher.

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. In *theory* in the calls to tech support are randomized (at least randomized within whichever particular call center they route you to).

Also, having worked supervisor at many tech support phone lines, you don't have to know ANYTHING to fix these problems if the company is working like it should. I had people working under me that barely knew how to use a keyboard and mouse. Computer knowledge was NOT a big thing in our hiring (in fact, if you knew more than a little we wouldn't hire you because historically it never worked out unless you were being hired as a sup/level3/etc).

We needed people that could handle irrate customers, pleasant to talk to, and could follow directions.

The things they tested for would have come up with simple solutions on the call flows I designed. The rep asks some questions, ticks some boxes, and the system generates a "next step". Granted if you knew what you were doing you could skip a lot of BS -- but if you didn't know ANYTHING about computers, you could still solve the problem for the customer (it would just take longer and potentially annoy the customer).

I can't read the article because the site is slashdotted, but can someone the read it let me know what the final solutions were? Did it get to "send your computer in for RMA" "format and reinstall" -- or was it the annoying yet at least not MAJOR "I'll have to have someone from level 2 call you back"? That would make a big difference in how I would rate the results.

You wouldn't believe how hard it is to get phone reps to admit when they can't solve a problem, and how much better the customer feedback scores are when they do -- admiting they can't help, and scheduling a call from someone who can. Some companies (names left out to protect the evil) are downright awful about "MUST SOLVE PROBLEM IN FIRST CALL" -- so the end result of a very high number was RMA or format/reinstall (or recovery disk).

Re:Three samples isn't statistically kosher.

[MoralHazard]

That sibling poster to my current comment sure has a bug up his ass, doesn't he? But back to our discussion...

With a larger sample size, random chance plays less of a part - if you have consistently good techs, you will get a good score, and if you have consistently bad techs you will get a bad score.

I do understand statistical methods. I think that our major difference of opinion here is in how much difference there really is between the majority of techs working at a given company. That's what most of my original post was driving at. You appear to believe that there is enough variance in the problem-solving abilities of different people at one company for it to make a big difference.

As I said in the GP, I think it's reasonable to assume that any given call to a particular company will net you a similar result, because the variance in the techs is low. Now, I can't prove that, but like I said before, it seems like most of the overriding factors in how techs perform (pay scale, hiring policies, management, etc) would tend to make for a homogenous workforce.

It's pretty striking how differently these same companies rated between Consumer Reports, which does statistical surveys using accepted statistical methods across a large number of customers, versus this magazine article, which followed the "let's try this" methodology.

My bad--I missed your earlier references to the CR stuff. That's actually some good evidence that there IS a big variance in tech effectiveness at a given company. So you may well be right on with your point in this situation.

Still, though, I want to stand behind the basic point that I'm making about the validity of non-statistical methods for stuff like this.

Although, now that I think about it, there's no way to know whether the variance is large until you actually DO a full-on statistical study, with a large sample size. So I guess the anecdotal approach is inherently flawed, though I can see it still having a place as an ultra-cheap heuristic.

That's the thing--if you're willing to assume low variance and accept the costs of being wrong in that assumption, you can do it cheap and go anecdotal. That may be a practical solution. In this case, where the magazine is just trying to do a story, it seems like they accepted the costs of being wrong, as seen by your CR comparison.

Re:Three samples isn't statistically kosher.

[MoralHazard]

Dude, you're just being rude, here. The parent makes a perfectly valid point--see my sibling comment to yours for some more thoughts on that. Short version: Consumer Reports did large-sample studies, and got somewhat different results from the anecdotal study in the magazine article. That suggests strongly that there's more variance in the techs' effectiveness at any given company than I originally gave credit for.

If statisticians can statistically determine who the next president of the United States is by polling 1000 people, I think making 3 calls to a tech support line is more than accurate.

Stats tells us that we can determine quite a bit about the behavior of a large population of events based on the analysis of a smaller subset, properly selected. The way the math works out, though, 1000 samples are more than enough to establish the opinions of 200 million voters... but 3 samples aren't enough to establish the effectiveness of even 1000 support techs.

The number of samples needed varies with the degree of confidence you want in your result... if you want to be 95% sure of your result, you need more samples than if you were satisfied with being 90% sure. The number of samples needed, though, is NOT a linear relation to the confidence level--there's diminishing returns.

Also, the number of samples needed varies with the total population size, but again it isn't a linear relationship. In this case, though, it's an "aggrandizing" returns situation, because as the total population gets larger, you need a smaller fraction of it to get results.

I'd love to lay the math out, but it's been five years since I took Stats, and I don't have the book handy.

You claim the logic is broken, but do you have ANY idea how to judge sample size? How many would be enough for you? 50? 100? 10,000?

There are ways of determining how many you need--you determine your population size, pick a degree of confidence, and plug in the numbers--viola, you have a minimum sample size needed to guarantee that level of confidence.

Re:Three samples isn't statistically kosher.

[alva_edison]

Of course you can gneralize with just three samples, you just have to know how accurate your generalization is. Assuming that we are following standard sampling theory then the margin of error is 1/sqrt(N), or in this case, about 58%.

Re:Three samples isn't statistically kosher.

[alva_edison]

I forgot to mention that the 58% is +/-, so if the average score was 2 out of 5, you could expect anywhere from -1 to 5 out of 5 in service.

Re:Three samples isn't statistically kosher.

[mellon]

Look, not to beat a dead horse or anything, but you're making my point for me here. The point is that the purpose of this article was not to inform the reader, but rather to make money for the magazine. The degree of journalistic integrity here is zero. The authors have no reason at all to assume that what they are saying is true.

Like you, I haven't had a stats course in a long time - in my case 25 years - but the holes in this study are still obvious to me. Look closer at the Consumer Reports article - they refused to even rate IBM because of insufficient samples. How likely is it that they had fewer than three samples? I'm guessing they had more. Granted, I can't prove this, but it would really surprise me if not even three people rated the service on IBM, who produce a really nice product that a lot of people buy.

The point is that this article just adds pollution to the noosphere - it adds no new information. Because people aren't very smart about filtering the wheat from the chaff, as a result of this article the amount of valid information about customer service in the world has gone *down* as a result of the publication of this article. Call me old fashioned, but I think that's a damned shame, and that's why I was moved to write my original post - I thought maybe I could affect the average. :'}

A sad state of affairs

[fuct_onion]

Yeah, this is basically what it's come to. And, it's not just outsourcing. Many small companies I deal with put their newly-hired pimply kids on tech support. Because, guess what, the senior people (who actually know their ass from a hole in the wall) can't be bothered.

Re:A sad state of affairs

[vertinox]

When I worked at Earthlink, everyone's goal was to not be on the phones and to be transferred to a position not on the phones. I think that was the biggest perk of being a manager. Except they had to talk with angry people... And then they'd transfer the call to me. Hell... I wasn't even on the "saves team".

Re:A sad state of affairs

[nametaken]

Which is only natural. The problem is, the bar is continually being lowered. As part of a Marketing class assignment, we read about how major vendors in all industries are letting their support slide, because as it turns out, people don't care enough to do anything about it. They SAY they do, but they don't.

Customers that make real trouble, companies would rather lose to reduce support costs. Individuals just don't matter anymore. People will continue to buy Dells, no matter how bad the customer support is (oh, and how..) just like they continue to buy at Walmart even though they know they're evil.

The only stake-to-the-heart is when a company arrives that delivers as promised, and listens to people.

Re:A sad state of affairs

[general_re]

When I worked at Earthlink, everyone's goal was to not be on the phones and to be transferred to a position not on the phones.

Well, it seems to have worked, given that EL has now outsourced all their first-tier support staff ;)

It's not so bad, really - my only (minor) complaint is that their staff feel compelled to make up Americanized names when you call. I don't know if it's policy or what, but I'm really not going to flip out if you tell me your name is Bina or Niraj or whatever - just don't bullshit me and tell me your name is Betty or Steve, 'cause I don't buy it, sorry...

And for real fun...

[winkydink]

Try calling the various companies international support lines while out of the country about a notebook you bought in the US.

IBM does (did?) a good job with this. Others completely fell apart.

Re:And for real fun...

[cianduffy]

s/USA/Canada there, and its exactly my experience with IBM - IBM Ireland were willing to support (and repair) a Canadian bought Thinkpad for the lenght of the -Irish- warranty (2 years at the time) rather than the Canadian (1 year at the time). HP, however. Blergh..

The call to Dell

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello, this is Steve Rahashapemndadshomafaridsuaoia, how may I help you?

Click

Re:The call to Dell

[Martin Blank]

Funny. Everyone I talk to at Dell is named John, though they all sound like Apu. One of them tried to tell me he was in South Carolina or something.

Re:The call to Dell

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty simple reason why that guy Apu is outsourced entity because AMERICANS wouldn't do the same job for that much price. If you are willing to do it, they won't outsource. Now quit your crying.

Re:The call to Dell

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, guess what? There *are* people in South Carolina, and some of them are called John, too! Surprise surprise!

Re:The call to Dell

[Abalamahalamatandra]

I just had to go through a tech support round with Dell, and got a quite nice (American too!) lady who was, in fact, in South Carolina, so he may have been telling the truth.

Re:The call to Dell

[nxtw]

..but very few of them have foreign accents.

Re:The call to Dell

[nxtw]

I've been able to get an American from Dell by choosing Small Business tech support. They were able to help me with the generic customer service issue I had that the foreign Customer Serivce people couldn't.

(This was for an Axim.)

Re:The call to Dell

[Anonymous Coward]

Americans cannot do the job for that price - it's below the minimum wage in the US.

Re:The call to Dell

[Conan D. Librarian]

If you're in IT, you have to make SURE that you get Gold Tech Support with any new Dell purchases now. My sales rep in Austin told me that with Gold, if I am not satisfied with the tech support, I can call him, and he will go downstairs to kick somebody's ass, as that's where the Gold tech guys reside.

Re:The call to Dell

[Anonymous Coward]

Apu is not really a common Indian name, you know...

You get what you pay for

[stoolpigeon]

And frankly I'd rather pay less for a laptop and deal with the service not being so great. I have a hunch this is true with a lot of people.

If a company were to start advertising, 'Hey- our laptops cost more but you get the best service.' I bet they wouldn't sell as well as the company beating their prices.

With the wealth of knowledge available on the web-- I don't usually use support anyway. My family that aren't as tech savvy? They bring their issues to me. They don't use the support either.

Re:You get what you pay for

[generic-man]

"Our laptops cost more but you get the best service" is basically how IBM and Apple expect to sell pricey high-end laptops to professionals. My experience with Apple support was pretty lousy: after Apple diagnosed my hard drive as faulty, it took 18 days to get my laptop back with a new drive. Apple's tech reps changed their story every time I called -- one day it was "we received the part and need to install it" and the next day it was "we just need to order your new part!". Even Compaq turned things around within a week once I got through their awful phone support.

Re:You get what you pay for

[rovingeyes]

Support as such arises, in most cases, due to ignorance and laziness. Most of these tech support issues can be solved by simply RTFM. Now that is definitely too much to ask of people. How many people actually read the manual when they get their PC or at least when they actually have a problem? This is the reason most companies don't print manuals but just put it on a CD because if they know that they are simply going to save money. Besides if you are savvy enough to pop in that CD and read the docs you'll hardly ever call tech support.

Sad story is that people will spend hours searching for pr0n on google, but 10 minutes searching an answer for their problem is apparently waste of their time

Re:You get what you pay for

[AnObfuscator]

If a company were to start advertising, 'Hey- our laptops cost more but you get the best service.' I bet they wouldn't sell as well as the company beating their prices.

Not always. Dell's prices are usually quite good, but rarely the absolute cheapest. But what has their advertising mantra been over the past few years? "Award winning service and support". They offered impressive -- and industry changing -- service plans on their products, and people started buying Dell over HP, Compaq, Gateway, and others -- even though those companies offered comparable pricing.

So, yeah, advertising that you give amazing service *can* get you more sales.

Re:You get what you pay for

[arose]

I'd rather not pay for software support at all.

Re:You get what you pay for

[the_weasel]

You live in a dream world of fuzzy bunnies and little leprechauns, where everyone can eat chocolate for dinner and stay up as late as they want.

You pay for support, wether you think you do or not. Unless of course, you don't buy anything at all....

Re:You get what you pay for

[John Hurliman]

I only paid $800 for my Averatec laptop, and they have the best 24-hour customer service I've encountered with nearly no wait times. The smaller companies have to try harder in all aspects to compete with companies like Dell and Gateway that sell their name brand.

(My company plug for the day)

Re:You get what you pay for

[arose]

I want to live in a dream world. You on the other hand have to read more carefully.

Re:You get what you pay for

[Anonymous Coward]

wow... talk about the most profound cluelessness I've ever seen exhibited, even on slashdot.

Laptops, especially, have little in the way of field-servicable commodity componentry. Put another way, if your (modem, net, video, usb, hard drive, keyboard, sound, cd, dvd, i/o port, pcmcia, battery) fail you often can't swap it with an identical component bought locally. Memory, external devices or cards, and hard drives are about the only thing available at a few thousand shops like Frys or Circuit City.

In 20 years of lugging a computer around, I have had 2 or 3 support instances that reinstalling software or RTFM might have helped. On the other hand, I or the people I supported as company IT guy have had every one of the above things fail abruptly. Agronomists I worked with were brutally tough on laptops (imagine an absent-minded scientist with 15 appointments per day with farmers in their fields), but the other 18 years of my time doing this have typically seen tiny things like backlight 'bulb's fading, hinges being poorly engineered, battery failures, USB dying, wierd-ass sounds coming from the speakers, the cursor perpetually drifting to a corner of the screen, and so on.

I came here to call parent an unparalleled fuckwit for saying support doesn't matter. You outdid them.

As for parent: I buy/recommend IBM thinkpads. Stellar support, at a decent price. Excellent engineering, ruggedness, too. When something bad happens, I call, and talk to a real person without delay. The next day, a prepackaged shipping box arives, and I fedex my box to wherever. The 2nd day, they typically swap in repair parts and fedex it back. Round-trip is usually 2 days, and a full failure leaves me computerless for 3, counting the wait for the shipping box. If the failed part is field-removable, they'll swap-ship it (send me a repair part and a box to return the dead component). A worst case: My computer was down for a week, due to death of some minor component on a 3-year-old laptop requiring a bit of delay to get the piece.

Meanwhile, mentallyincontinent.com has a story about his Dell support experience. And I know a half dozen other Dell horror stories. I've known folks that have suffered for 3 or 4 *months* trying to get correct service out of Dell. Personally, I'd eat glass or sell my kid into white slavery before I'd buy a Dell laptop for business use.

Oh, and as for price vs. support? A single day of downtime costs my company more than a laptop expected to last 3 years. Those 2-day round-trips make it cost-effective for us to have spare machines. And between lost billable hours and the risk of lost data, I could never respect a company shortsighted enough to ignore that.

this doesn't surprise me

[udderly]

This isn't so surprising to me. Many of my customers are willing ot pay us to fix computers that are under warranty just so that they won't have to deal with tech support.

You almost wonder if the major manufacturers want to make sure that it isn't too easy or people will access the services too often.

Re:this doesn't surprise me

[bladesjester]

I always thought it was amusing that one of my clients would call me to make a paid office visit in order for me to talk to Dell for her so she didn't have to supress homicidal tendancies.

This was if she had a hardware failure. Any other problem, she'd call me and have me fix it there.

I tried phoning for tech support

[WillAffleckUW]

but my VoIP on my laptop didn't work and since it was a network problem ...

Um, hello?

Re:I tried phoning for tech support

[Anonymous Coward]

Amusingly enough, this happens quite a bit where I work (call center for a major ISP that also provides VOIP).

"Okay, we're just going to get you to power cycle your modem"

"okay I'm unplugging it now, okay-"

My pet on-hold peeve

[QuantumRiff]

If your going to keep my on hold and listening to music, please dear god stop interupting the songs every 15-20 seconds with an automated voice giving me a sales pitch, or thanking me for being a customer, or assuring me a tech is working on the problem. Let me listen to the damn music uninterrupted while I wait.

On the plus side, one tech support line, ( I think it was 3com) had a voice at the start of the hold cue that said, Press 1 for classical music, Press 2 for Jazz, Press 3 for classic rock.... That was pretty nice

Re:My pet on-hold peeve

[LoraxLorax]

The absolute worst is the fake picked up phone click followed by "Thank you for continuing to hold..."

Re:My pet on-hold peeve

[generic-man]

I called Microsoft maybe 10 years ago, and they had a DJ playing songs. "That was Barry Manilow. This next one goes out to the folks in the Microsoft Word queue, where the average hold time is 48 minutes right now..."

HP's interruptions are terrible. "HP and AOL have teamed up to simplify the Internet for you!" every five minutes for hours on end. Intolerable.

Re:My pet on-hold peeve

[forkazoo]

I once worked at a place where we managed to get permission for an MP3 server for hold music. Management was tired of customers thinking they had been hung up on due to hold-silence, and we wanted an excuse to build a server to play MP3's all day.

Management didn't particularly ask what music we were putting on the server, so we just put all the MP3's we had handy, and an ancient version of slackware that would run on the 486 we had lying around, and we had to set the MP3 player to mono only so it would play in real time, and custom compile the kernel with no modules, and only what we needed so it would fit in however much RAM it had...

It was great until a customer confusedly asked one of the suits what they had been listening to. If I recall correctly, it was a comedy track about Nick Danger, Third eye. Very wacky.

http://www.thrillingdetective.com/danger_n.html

Suits insisted that it didn't project a professional image, so we cleaned things up, and moved to all funk and scriabin.

Ah, good times.

Re:My pet on-hold peeve

[eodmightier]

When I setup the hold music on our PBX at the office, I set it up with some subliminal messaging to calm them down before I get them.

That way I get the full fun of working them up into a complete tizzy.

Re:My pet on-hold peeve

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, that sure is a low trick, designed to prevent you from putting them on speaker phone.

Any company that pulls that trick on me is noted and my next purchase will be from their competitor.

Re:My pet on-hold peeve

[RickPartin]

That is a huge pet peeve of mine as well. I can zone out while the hold music is playing and work on other things. But being interrupted every 30 seconds keeps making me think someone has picked up the phone. Grrrrrrrrrr. Yes stupid repeating message I understand how being on hold works. I listen to music until you get around to talking to me. And even if I didn't know this I probably figured out the first 20 times you explained it to me.

I'm not sure if they still do it but Gateway used to have a fake Gateway Radio station for hold music. It was strangely entertaining. Next up is the band blablabla who is currently on tour at....

Re:My pet on-hold peeve

[vicgolgo13]

On the plus side, one tech support line, ( I think it was 3com) had a voice at the start of the hold cue that said, Press 1 for classical music, Press 2 for Jazz, Press 3 for classic rock.... That was pretty nice

Yes, actually that was a 3com thing, I worked with US Robotics and when they split off in 97-98(?) we kept the music going... we even had the option of changing what songs were played as long as it was along the lines of Classical, Jazz, Adult Contemporary, or Classic Rock. We found ourselves in hold limbo all the time with the RMA dept as they fuddled around with their computers trying to get all of the information. Let me tell you there's nothing better than some smooth Miles Davis to cool you down after listening to some screaming your ears off because their 56kbps modem just died.

Re:My pet on-hold peeve

[jannesha]

"For a list of ways in which technology has made modern life suck ass, press 1..."

(I'm stealing this, but I don't know from whom.)

Re:My pet on-hold peeve

[droleary]

On the plus side, one tech support line, ( I think it was 3com) had a voice at the start of the hold cue that said, Press 1 for classical music, Press 2 for Jazz, Press 3 for classic rock.... That was pretty nice

Is that really nice, or merely a flag that their support was so bad that they're more interested in improving the wait than they are in improving the support? I think there is a car rental ad on TV that sarcastically portrays their competitor like that: "It's a long line but, hey, free coffee!" I don't want bloody free coffee or a choice in hold music when I deal with a company. If they want to impress me, they should play nails on a chalkboard, and it should play in the call center multiplied by all the people waiting, too. Instead they feed you the illusion of choice and you eat it up thinking it's "nice".

Re:My pet on-hold peeve

[Master of Transhuman]

Press 4 for The Corrs!

Sorry, my favorite band...And if they were on everybody's holding music, most people - except the rappers, soul, R&B, jazz, country-Western, punk, death metal and Gothic types - wouldn't mind. And if you could see their music videos while you wait, even those types wouldn't mind.

Hey! Great idea! Get video to everybody's phone and show PORN while you wait!

I can see the phone menu now: Press 1 for straight, press 2 for lesbian, press 3 for gay, press 4 for orgy, press 5 for fat women...

Re:My pet on-hold peeve

[Kent Recal]

"Oh, no, thanks. Actually I don't have a problem. But could you put me back on hold?"

It's a $ loser...

[Sir_Eptishous]

From someone who did t/s for years I can assure you that from the accounting/shareholders perspective, tech support is nothing but a hole. It is a money loser that they would rather consign to the depths than invest in training, customer contact database upgrades, etc; I used to hear it repeatedly that support wasn't a \revenue\generator.

I haven't had problems

[Anonymous Coward]

I only buy those notebooks with the black marbled covers and the wide ruled sheets inside. I don't see a help line number on any of them, but then they've never given me any problems, so I've never needed to call anyone.

Re:I haven't had problems

[bhtooefr]

College rule spiral notebooks have greater storage capacity, are easier to move data off of, and are usually cheaper.

Re:I haven't had problems

[Kesh]

I've found them to be very unreliable, however. The files tend to become lost or corrupt easily, and the file system structure itself can get damaged during transport, making it difficult to page through the files to find the information you want.

Besides, you can get your data out of the other kind of notebook with the proper tool. You can then cut & paste, or import into a three-ring system with another tool.

(How far can we stretch this joke? :) )

Re:I haven't had problems

[bhtooefr]

They're more durable than the Microperfs, that's for sure.

I've never seen filesystem corruption unless I left it open when not in use.

Of course files can corrupt or get lost easily when you just put them randomly out there - keep them within the notebook's filesystem, and they don't get corrupted.

Also, there are higher end versions with directory-capable filing systems (these often go under the name "5-subject", and have more storage capacity than normal notebooks). It's even theoretically possible to use the directory separators as a form of journalling file system!

Granted, the composition notebook has a free built-in PIM and conversion app, but I can always write my own very easily for the college-ruled notebook.

Re:I haven't had problems

[redpop350]

Search capability sucks... and it crashes when I walk into the other room for a cup of coffee!

Re:I haven't had problems

[mrzaph0d]

i don't like the directory-capable ones, there never appears to be enough room and they usually don't allow resizing the partitions without ruining whatever system you have setup. unless you export it to the aforementioned 3-ring system..

VPAC is necessary

[Rinikusu]

Back when I did tech support, I'd say 90% of the problems I encountered were software configuration issues, not hardware. When you're calling tech support, it only stands to reason that you actually buy hardware from the manufacturer, which is why people want to know your serial # and address information: Is this our shit? As a lot of software issues can be solved regardless of vendor, it's important they don't waste time/money on someone else's stuff. Surprisingly enough, I had people with Gateways trying to get support from Dell. :/

Employees are not trusted

[RickPartin]

The biggest problem I run into with tech support is the huge amount of rules and regulations the call center people have to follow. Instead of me calling up Gateway and saying "Hey my modem is fried, I know what I'm doing with computers, send me a new one" I have to go through an hour of pointless troubleshooting. For a $5 part with $3 shipping they should just send me the part.

Also the call center person has his/her hands tied when fixing the problem. Recently my cable internet service did not discontinue my service when I told them to. Even though it was obvious they needed to credit my account for the extra month they charged me for, the representative could not due to some rule. If he was trusted to just make the decision things would go much smoother.

Re:Employees are not trusted

[Otter]

Instead of me calling up Gateway and saying "Hey my modem is fried, I know what I'm doing with computers, send me a new one" I have to go through an hour of pointless troubleshooting.

The problem is that if they listened to everyone who says "I know what I'm doing with computers!", they'd spend all day shipping out new computers to thousands of people whose cat knocked the power cord out of the outlet.

Re:Employees are not trusted

[cperciva]

Instead of me calling up Gateway and saying "Hey my modem is fried, I know what I'm doing with computers, send me a new one" I have to go through an hour of pointless troubleshooting.

Get a real warranty. When the hard drive in my Dell D600 laptop died, I phoned the support number, gave them the serial number, said "the hard drive died and your diagnostic utility is saying <insert error message here>", and I had a new hard drive before 9AM the next morning.

Re:Employees are not trusted

[Zackbass]

I had a situation like this when I had to call IBM support for my laptop. It was giving me a fan error code through the BIOS when the fan was seemingly working properly. Instead of sending out the thing to IBM I ordered a HSF unit from a parts junker and installed it myself. It didn't fix the problem so I called IBM and told them the problem. He said he would have them put a new HSF in it. At that point I told him I had already done so and it didn't help. He seemed a little worried and talked to a manager I guess but after a minute he came back and said they would fix it no problem. The shipping box was at my door in under 20 hours and I had the notebook back fixed by the end of the week.

IIRC you get do things like tell them you already diagnosed the system and just need the part if you become a reseller. One IT shop I worked at for a summer had a special number and account to call that seemingly cut through a lot of the crap for each of the companies they deal with. At least that's the way I remember it, I could very well just be misremembering.

Re:Employees are not trusted

[QuaZar666]

But that is different than saying "my hard drive is dead, send me a new one now". I honestly used to work for Gateway before being laid off to be outsourced (the best thing they could have done to me) and I had people call me up all the time saying "the system is not working, send me a new one" and they didn't want to troubleshoot or anything. But if someone called me up and say my modem is not working and then tell me everything they have done then I would have them off the phone in 5 minutes.

- Qua

Re:Employees are not trusted

[EverDense]

The problem is that if they listened to everyone who says "I know what I'm doing with computers!", they'd spend all day shipping out new computers to thousands of people whose cat knocked the power cord out of the outlet.

Is that why tech support's first question is always: "Do you own a cat?"

Re:Employees are not trusted

[UserChrisCanter4]

This has nothing to do with warranty. Your hard drive diagnostic utility, while fallible, is probably 99% likely to be correct. His fried modem could indeed be a bad modem, or it could be that he erased the dial-in number, changed ISPs, or knocked the cord out of the back. If forcibly removed by older versions of ad-aware, new.net would totally screw up Windows' TCP stack. At first glance, a person could easily assume that their NIC had failed, but a few simple troubleshooting steps could tell you that it was a software issue, not a hardware one.

I've been doing computer repair for years, and I still remember the time I called roadrunner to complain that their service was down, only to find out that my cat had managed to unscrew the coax two rooms over (I still don't know how). In today's economic climate, tech support simply can't assume that you know what you're doing; they will run tests and scripts until they're satisfied that the problem is hardware-related. It's irritating when there is a genuine problem, but it also helps keep the overall cost down on your shiny new notebook.

Believe me, Dell will jump through just as many hoops when it comes to something that can't immediately be diagnosed through their packed-in diagnostic tools.

Re:Employees are not trusted

[Anonymous Coward]

I work for an ISP that does turnkey solutions for many cable providers in the US and Canada (smaller cable providers).

We pride outselves on a smart, educated,, support team. Every time a client comes through out call center and amazes over how few of us there are supporting how many people, it tells you how good we are.

We FIX problems, and don't have a script. So we pretty much have to know what we are doing.

Oh yeah, and the new.net remove issue, I ran into that when new.net was just listed as that, not new.net domains like it is now. Had to do the manual remove process too when I worked at a shop, no-one had a remover yet. Quick way to check was to try a ping by IP, if it works, then it was your fried DNS.

As a point of note though, winXP SP2 has a tool for fixing this sort of issues "netsh winsock reset" will reset your entire TCP/IP stack and DNS back to factory. It is very helpful in wierd DNS issues.

Re:Employees are not trusted

[nogginthenog]

The biggest problem I run into with tech support is the huge amount of rules and regulations the call center people have to follow. Instead of me calling up Gateway and saying "Hey my modem is fried, I know what I'm doing with computers, send me a new one" I have to go through an hour of pointless troubleshooting. For a $5 part with $3 shipping they should just send me the part.

Did you try reinstalling Windows?

Re:Employees are not trusted

[UserChrisCanter4]

The quickest way to determine if the old new.net was the culprit is to ping the loopback. Since it screws with the winsock, a loopback ping will error out on a system that's been damaged by new.net, where it won't if there's a hardware issue with the computer. We always just used a simple freeware winsock repair tool. When I left the repair place I worked at, our operative strategy was still (as of last December) to simply do a manual remove on new.net before running any other spyware removal utitlities.

It's nice that your company has encoruaged a corporate culture that allows you to fix problems, but I'm sure we both know that something like that won't translate well into Dell or HP's support system.

I work in tech support for Road Runner...

[Anonymous Coward]

...(in fact, I'm at work right now) in addition to being a full-time student. I can tell you that most people I work with here have a fraction of the knowledge the need to do their job correctly. They fancy themselves "geeks" when, in reality, most are nothing more than ordinary misfits of one sort or another. They try to get by on attitude and ego but, where the rubber meets the road, they have no credibility whatsoever. Phrases like emtionally stunted, dull-witted, and psychologically regressive come to mind...

I chaulk it up to the wage paid. It's actually not bad but, for most here, this job is a career move. That fact alone says a lot about the quality of the person you're likely to get on the phone. I can assure anyone that, no matter what your competence level, this job is NO career move. It's too bad they don't understand that, in a year, this office likely won't be around, and they'll be back on welfare, washing dishes, distributing flyers/newspapers, or who knows what.

Re:I work in tech support for Road Runner...

[sabinm]

This has to be one of the most asinine comments I have ever read in my life. Let me tell you that any job that you undertake in real life will revolve around some training. If those tech support reps didn't know their job, it's most likely a problem with the training. If they can't muscle the training, it's most likely the fault of the call center for hiring folk not up to the task.

You claim that computer tech support work is work that only morons would do. I don't get you. Does that mean everyone who calls in to tech support is less than a moron?

You seem to have some disdain for folk that seem less intelligent than you. Is that not more "Getting by more on attitude and ego"?

Your contempt from your co-workers is reprehensible and will guarantee that you will not ever be sucessful working in a team or managing colleagues. I shudder to think what will happen when you (inevitably) will encounter someone who is smarter than you. I hope that person gives you more courtesy and respect than you've extended to your colleagues. If you came into my office with that attitude, I'd think considerably about your talents then ask you to wait a couple of years until you mature a bit.

You seem to think that people who WORK for their money are contemptable? These are folk who may be on welfare but are willing to hand out flyers, wash dishes or work in fast food? And you find this somehow beneath you? I would take a person who was on welfare and willing to work over a wealthy do-nothing any day.

One day you're going to find out that geeks aren't really smarter than anyone else. They are just good at certain things, like most people are good at certain things.

I suggest you read Ayn Rand's 'Atlas Shrugged' it'll tell you a few things about the work ethic and how to perform even the most menial tasks with professionalism and dignity (if you can suffer the facism and fanaticism and poor economy of words).

Re:I work in tech support for Road Runner...

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me tell you that any job that you undertake in real life will revolve around some training
Who or what do you suppose you're talking to, a kid? Making the incorrect assumption that, because I'm in school, that I'm young was the first logical fallacy in your post.

If those tech support reps didn't know their job, it's most likely a problem with the training. If they can't muscle the training, it's most likely the fault of the call center for hiring folk not up to the task.
Um..... duh? Dare I say again DUH?? Those facts were pretty much a given in my post.

You claim that computer tech support work is work that only morons would do.
If you can tell me where I made a statement anywhere near that, I'll eat my fucking underwear. Maybe you ought to try reading a little less OUT of what people say and focus on what you can discern from what they ACTUALLY say.

I don't get you.
No fucking shit. I bet you don't actually get a lot of things, though you no doubt think you're a know-it-all.

You seem to have some disdain for folk that seem less intelligent than you.
some?. Undoubtedly, since ignorance and arrogance are usually two sides of the same personality. IOW, stupid people usually think they're God's gift to the universe. Maybe you need to brush-up on basic psychology as to why that is, it might prove illuminating in terms of your own psyche. (BTW, I guess I have to spell out the fact that NOWHERE in my post did I make any claims whatsoever to my abilities, I merely criticized others.)

Is that not more "Getting by more on attitude and ego"?
No, critising a thing!=embodying a thing. Cause!=correlation, Einstein.

Your contempt from your co-workers is reprehensible...
So what, are you saying there aren't people in this world worthy of contempt, coz that's what you're displaying for me right now. No? The question becomes, then, what is worthy of contempt? Arrogance from the incompetent, and ignorance and stupidity ARE worthy of contempt in any sane person's world-view. The alternative, is that the incompetent run the world (into the ground).

will guarantee that you will not ever be sucessful working in a team or managing colleagues.
Given what I know about the reality of my life, and the utter LACK of first-hand knowledge you have of it, makes this statement completely and utterly LAUGHABLE. Poeple like you seem to make falacious reasoning a away of life (and no wonder the world is so fucked-up). Once again, cause!=correlation. Get it?

I shudder to think what will happen when you (inevitably) will encounter someone who is smarter than you.
You mean like the time I met Steven Hawking at a lecture about 5 years ago? What, you think I gave him the evil eye and secretly coveted his intellect? You really ARE a FUCKING IDIOT.

I hope that person gives you more courtesy and respect than you've extended to your colleagues.
I can assure you, he was emminently gracious, and it was a wonderful 5 minutes.

You seem to think that people who WORK for their money are contemptable?
I'll say it again, I'll eat my fucking underwear if you can substantiate that statement...

These are folk who may be on welfare but are willing to hand out flyers, wash dishes or work in fast food? And you find this somehow beneath you? I would take a person who was on welfare and willing to work over a wealthy do-nothing any day.
Blah blah fucking blah. RESULTS are all that matters. If all they can manage to handle are those menial tasks, they can stay where they are, there are BILLIONS of far more capable people in the world. As to the rish lay-about, he doesn't need my help anyway.

One day you're going to find out that geeks aren't really smarter than anyone else.
You really are clueless. I realize the notion that there are smarter people out there doesn't conform to your notion of everyo

Re:I work in tech support for Road Runner...

[braindigitalis]

I think what's happened here is that "Anonymous Coward" knows what he wants to say but hasnt quite portrayed it correctly. You *do* get call centers full of people who dont know their modem from their network card, and only get buy on the flowchart theyre given for problem solving on the phone. This is not fault of the people doing the job, theyre not 'stupid', theyre just lacking the required skills to work in IT technical support. Having done technical support jobs for a while i can tell you that you get things done much faster and much easier if you have the basic knowledge about what you're supporting.

If your call center is really as bad as this, then yes, the buck stops at the management for having a poor recruitment and training process which fails to give new hires the right knowledge, and vet people who simply arent capable of IT support -- for example, i *know* i cant be a decorator or a lawyer, so i wouldnt apply for the job, but there are many people applying for work in the IT field with no experience, relying totally upon the training given by their first employer. Yes, everyone starts somewhere, and we must all start from the bottom of the ladder *however* if these people new to the field end up starting with an employer who isnt willing to train them, then their failure is all but assured and that really isnt fair.

Re:I work in tech support for Road Runner...

[sabinm]

I wasn't going to reply to such horrid invective, but hey, I've a few minutes to spare.

Phrases like emtionally stunted, dull-witted, and psychologically regressive come to mind

thefreedictionary.com, along with several other sources define moron thus:

1. A stupid person; a dolt.
2. Psychology A person of mild mental retardation having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years and generally having communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education. The term belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive.

http:www.thefreedictionary.com/moron

I would remind you, the folk you have such contempt for--are your colleagues. I would hesitate to intimate to the rest of the world that everyone you work with is of sub intelegence. The "everyone here is incompetent--except me" thing wears pretty old soon, and is quite amusing to outside observers.

There is a great difference in contempt because of their innate human traits like: average intelligence--

"Oh my gosh! There are folk out there with--average intelligence!"

And contempt for folk who show contempt for all others not like them. The first contempt is unproductive. An average intelligence person is average and isn't getting any smarter (although i'm convinced that a person with average intelligence could likely do 99.99 percent of the jobs on earth with some degree of success with the right amount of training and nurturing).

The second contempt could be helpful to help foster change in attitude and deliver a different perspective to such backward thinking.

Your anger itself is entertaining and just about proves my point. Such anger! Why? Read my only journal blog. It'll add about five years to your life if you follow it's advice.

I must confess. I'm writing this to get you angry again. I'm sort of devillish that way. Is your head exploding yet?

I find it amusing that you think that there is something inherently wrong with working at a fast food joint. I've done that. Did a good job. I've also worked tech support. Did that too. Did a good job. I owned my first computer about four months after I first got married about five years ago. In that time I worked in techsupport for one and a half years and then started my own tech support business. Helped pay for school and the mortgage on my house. Guess what. I realized that while I was quite good at what I did, that my real passion was not fixing other peoples networks, or selling them switches, or supporting their data centers. I got tired of getting paged in the middle of the night. I got tired of the thin margins. Mostly, I got tired of being pigeonholed into one skill.

So my new job is more interesting and I get to travel the world. Oh. During that time I was job hunting was when I worked in fast food. Helped pay the bills and I got a lot of free burgers. I also delivered mail part time. I met some of the finest most intelligent folk--hard workers who knew the pride of their job and devoted energy into perfecting thier skill. I also met folk who didn't care. I also met folk who were mean and obstinate and who showed contempt for their colleagues. I didn't understand it. Those folk were rarely successful.

Oh. Hate to burst your bubble, but geeks aren't smarter than anyone else. Just because you can refine algorithms or factor really large numbers doesn't make you inherently valuable. It is how you use the resources you have that truly defines capability. Have geeks ever ruled the world? NO.
Are geeks useful? YES. Can they do amazing things? YES. Are those things somehow inherently more valuable than other things? NO. Now, there are geniuses. Not all geniuses are geeks, and not all geeks are geniuses. Worship of geeks would have landed us several ages behind the stone age. From the beginning of geekness, geeks have failed to pro

Tell me how long and how many ahead of me...

[winkydink]

and update me when the number of people in line changes. That, at least, gives the appearance of movement.

Though you can get into predictive problems with this. United Airlines has told me more than once, "your estimated wait time is 80 minutes". Yikes! And they still can't make money?

Re:Tell me how long and how many ahead of me...

[Sir_Eptishous]

The worst thing is when you've been on hold for so long that after a while you forget who you've called, why, or for how long...

Re:Tell me how long and how many ahead of me...

[forkazoo]

Did they tell you more than once in the same call? IMO, it would make sense to say, there are 'x' people in the queue. That number will always go down, but a few really long winded people in a row can drive up the time estimate, making you feel you aren't getting anywhere.

Re:Tell me how long and how many ahead of me...

[winkydink]

I didn't hang around. I called back on the Premier Exec # and got through in 5 minutes. No, the 1st number wasn't the general number, it was for 1K's. Go figure.

The Tests Used...

[MS-06FZ]

Call 1: Device driver trouble We disabled our optical drive in Device Manager. Easy fix: Uninstall the relevant device driver and reboot. Windows heals itself.

Call 2: Wi-Fi misconfiguration We turned off TCP/IP routing for our wireless adapter, so we could connect to the router but couldn't browse the web. Easy fix: Check the properties for the relevant adapter to make sure the correct protocols are installed. Or, uninstall the device and reboot.

Call 3: Corrupted operating system We overwrote a critical Windows file (Explorer.exe), a problem that let Windows boot up but made all of our desktop icons and the Start menu disappear. Easy fix: Use System Restore to revert to an earlier configuration. Or, use the operating-system CDs (if provided) to reinstall Windows without reformatting the hard drive.

Yeah, I can't help but feel these tests aren't typical of the problems most people need tech support for... How do these things happen? I mean, apart from being intentional damage caused by someone hoping to test tech support? And in cases where the OS itself does become corrupted beyond usability, is that a common enough problem that it's worth tech support walking people through it? Bear in mind that these people have to answer to hordes of people asking why applications disappear when they click on the little "X".

Re:The Tests Used...

[tekiegreg]

Well my 2 cents: #1 Is theoretically possible, maybe in a new hardware installation that disabled an old device driver and attempted (and failed) to load a new one. Though if you're installing new hardware, would that void your warranty?

#2 Also tricky to pull, I'd have to assume negligence in setting up your Internet settings is what caused this (or why play with that?). Perhaps you were setting up a new ISP, complete with new settings when you hit that checkbox.

#3 I'm suspecting a trojan or other malware doing something at that point. What else could corrupt explorer.exe?

Re:The Tests Used...

[Martin Blank]

Bad drive sector. I've seen that happen. Of course, that's also often a precursor to Very Bad Things happening. It last happened on that IBM 75GXP I bought...

Re:The Tests Used...

[Deekin_Scalesinger]

Hearing IBM, bad sector and Very Bad Things happening reminded me of the Death Star

Re:The Tests Used...

[default luser]

Funny that, just hearing "75GXP" would be plenty enough to remind me of the Deathstar.

There were also some quality issues with the 60GXP, the successor to the 75GXP, but not on the same order.

My experience? 30GB 75GXP. 14 months, RIP.

Former Dell Rep

[Kesh]

As a former tech-support rep for Dell, I can at least understand what's going on there.

First off, Dell doesn't do the work themselves. They outsource their tech-support to another company (whom I worked for). They've got call centers across the US and in other countries. The trouble is, if one call center is being overwhelmed, you call will get bumped to another. When that happens, you might get put into the wrong queue (home users ending up on the business lines), which means you'll have to hang up and call again. Each queue is only allowed to handle their particular service area. So, if you have an Inspiron laptop at home, you can't get any help from the desktop techs or the business laptop techs. And they can't transfer calls to another queue.

Further, the call centers close up shop at midnight local time. All remaining calls in queue then get bumped west. After midnight in California, that means you're getting a foreign call center until 8 am Eastern.

The serial numbers, however, are a good thing. When you call in, you're asked to read off the Service Tag for your machine, which allows the tech to not only pull up technical specs on your individual Dell, but to see your prior call history. That way, they know that the last time you called in you were having X problem, and the tech recommended Y solution, or that they sent out a replacement hard drive, etc.

In all, it wasn't a bad job (aside from rude or hysterical callers). Just tedious, and you had little chance to interact with your co-workers, or even your supervisors. Hell, I never did find out what my supervisor's name was, because I never met her in person.

Re:Former Dell Rep

[kalpol]

I used to work for Dell's refurbishing center (while between real jobs). I had access to the customer history for the computers I repaired, and man was that ever some depressing reading. There was more than one instance of a person with a new (and broken) computer being offered a refurbished replacement, and of course the next line in the records would be "Customer is extremely irate". They seemed to be under quite a bit of pressure not to send replacement parts or systems, but instead get the computer in to the repair depot or get a service tech out. Of course there were also some instances of people having the computer for a few months, then buying the super-high-grade warranty and then it would show up at ARC having mysteriously been dropped in a pool a week later.

Re:Former Dell Rep

[Kesh]

Yeah. You could always tell when you got a trouble PC / customer when you pull up the records, and the previous entries scroll off the screen.

That's when you know, "This is going to be a baaaad call..." ;)

Re:Former Dell Rep

[phuturephunk]

Someone worked for C*****gys. ;)

I'm so glad I was never part of that account. You guys (if you did indeed work for the company I'm talking about) pretty much made the company and gave them the perfect marketing tool (support is great!) that they pimp to this day. Ya'll were pretty enthusiastic about it too.

I hear today it's a shell of what it used to be in the mid-late 90's.

Economics of Tech Support

[mpapet]

In one company I worked, one call wiped out the profit of 5 units sold. Laptops likely make more money per unit, but same concept...

There is -no- incentive for having warm bodies intelligently support a product. An employee like that would:
1. cost too much money/hour and be hard to replace.
2. Take too long with each customer
3. Inspire more phone calls. (support is great right?)
4. Raise the price of the laptop.

Re:Economics of Tech Support

[RickPartin]

Good point. I just wish if these companies were going to have crappy tech support they wouldn't brag left and right about AWARD WINNING SUPPORT!!!1 (Dell I'm looking at you). Maybe the solution is when you buy the laptop you can pay extra for enhanced phone support. They would need to figure a way to sell the enhanced support without implying the normal support is crap.

Re:Economics of Tech Support

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that you can purchase several different levels of support from Dell.

Why is this a problem?

[fohat]

"and annoying fixation with pinning down our name, address, and serial numbers"

Ya, god forbid they'd want to ship you a replacement part or know who they are talking to. I have no clue why this is a negative point.

One thing I really like is calling HP phone support. I've dealt with them several times over the past 2 weeks for server issues. They have one of those automated voice response systems that ask you what product you are calling about and what operating system it uses. I only had a problem once when I didn't answer clearly enough and ended up routed to the wrong support que.

It's really a crapshoot with any company, it all comes down to how responsible the guy on the other end of the line is.

Re:Why is this a problem?

[sithsasquatch]

Yeah, HP tech support is pretty good. The only gripe I have with their automated system is the damn annoying chime when they transfer your call.

A more general gripe is the commercials they play while you're on hold. What marketing exec. greenlighted that?

Re:Why is this a problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

What number were you calling for HP support? Was it for desktops/laptops or large enterprise (Main Frame, VAX, etc.)? My company has over 2000 HP/Compaq desktops and laptops and we call HP support 2-3 times per day for bad H/W replacement (especially for the bad Maxtor hard drive batch). Half of the time, we cannot communicate due to language barriers. The on-hold time is extremely high (most calls average 15-20 minutes to get a replacement part sent out -- even though we are in the system already, or the level-1 tech insists on reading through his script to ensure that the internal hard drive test that is recommending replacement is correct (it's HP's own tool). If I was able to get into the BIOS to run the built-in HD test, then YES, my power cord is securely plugged in!

Re:Why is this a problem?

[LurkerXXX]

Yeah, I was also surprised that they thought it was strange that the tech asked them to boot from a bootable CD when the CD wasn't 'working'. If you can boot off the CD it tells you instantly that there is nothing wrong with the hardware, but it's a windows configuration problem. That's a good quick check, nothing strange about it at all.

Acer support

[doombob]

The thing with Acer is that they rely heavily on their 3rd party Value Added Resellers (VARs) to handle technical support issues. If you had someone like us resell your Acer to you, we would either answer all your questions over the phone (we're IT people, not call center people) or we would ask you to bring it in so that we could take a look at it in person. If we had to send it in due to warranty issues or otherwise, we would back up your whole hard drive before sending it off. Even we know how bad the Acer "tech support" is.


Ps. They've obviously never worked in a call center where you could actually be fired for telling your location.

Most of you don't get it

[thunderbee]

At all.
Most calls to support have little to do with actual problems.
Most calls to support are from the 95% of the population that calls because 'the internet is broken, please fix it, I bought my computer from you'.

So, they have procedures to deal with these 95%.
No, "I know my stuff, just trust me" won"t work - everyone says that.

Your best bet is to play along, nicely.
Spontaneously providing precise and to the point information gets you out of the dummy filters faster. Of course, the question is then, can you get to someone who can actually fix the poroblem.
This is the real problem.
Bashing the dummy-filtering procedure is pointless. Focusing on the eventual availability of someone with the knowledge/power to fix things is what matters.

Re:Most of you don't get it

[Cassanova]

Consider yourself a recipient of a mod point that I unfortunately dont have to award to you.
Grind your teeth for the first 5 or 10 mins patiently. Its painful I agree, but take a deep breath before the call, meditate for a few minutes if you must then dial. You may be pleasantly surprised at the end. Does not work all the time but hey it preserves your sanity this way and *may* end up solving your problem.

No surprise

[cecirdr]

Businesses have spent a lot of time figuring out how long people will wait in line, how long on hold, how long navigating a phone menu maze, how long long getting junk answers to a tech problem...etc etc, before taking their business elsewhere. They don't care if you give up in disgust, just that you don't jump ship to a different company the next time you buy a computer or gadget.

Now, this doesnt' address the "nifty" irony that *all* companies provide such crappy service that there's no point in jumping ship. Of course that could be one of the reasons explaining the drop in overall sales that manufacturers are starting to complain about. I can understand the rational of "If you can't jump ship and get a better product (one that actually does what it advertises) or better service, then don't upgrade at all...it'll just make for more headaches."

Call the h/w company for s/w problems

[gabbarbhai]

and then complain they are not doing their job correctly.

Horrible Testing

[Qwerpafw]

I'm really amazed by how badly they conducted this test. Some of the reasons why their procedure is horrible have already been touched upon:

Statistically insignificant sample size.

Bad choice of problems.

Arbitrary Grading.

These problems are even more ridiculous when you look at what they did to their apple laptop. As a reference point, Apple has the highest ranked Tech Support by Consumer Reports for both desktops and laptops. In one phone call, they decided this was not the case--apparently conducting surveys of thousands of people is unnecessary.

They also chose different problems for the mac--booting off a non-existent network drive? How is this even remotely a real-world problem? Furthermore, holding down option while rebooting lets you choose the drive your computer will boot from--which is a fix for the problem. If they reset the preference after they booted so that it broke again, that's not Apple's fault.

Misconfiguring wi-fi is also an amazingly horrible test. There's no way to know what settings someone's wireless network and router use, unless you're the LAN administrator. Apple was more than correct to refer them to the manufacturer of the router--could you tell me, right now, what my IP, DNS, Gateway, and hostmask settings should be? What about the SSID and password for my router?

The test was stupidly conducted, and worse yet, only conducted once. Their results were meaningless.

Re:Horrible Testing

[slavemowgli]

Furthermore, holding down option while rebooting lets you choose the drive your computer will boot from--which is a fix for the problem.

Does your choice get safed when you do that? The way the article was written, it sounded like it did not, and in that case, I would agree with them that it's not a fix. I'm not a Mac user, though, so I don't know. :)

Re:Horrible Testing

[cvd6262]

Statistically insignificant sample size.

There is a whole tradition of qualitative inquiry that has been seeping into evaluation (from anthropology mainly) for about fifty years now. It seems there are situations when you don't want to construct confidence intervals based on probability (statistics), but, rather, want to understand a complexe phenomenon.

A survey of thousands of users would have to be controled for the users experience (what if the user was actually wrong?) and for the company (different comanies serve different user-types. Compared that to a knowledgable person calling with predetermined questions to all the major vendors they could find, and grading them on some predetermined rubric.

I will not argue the assertion that their choices of problems was poor, or that the grading was arbitrary, just that not having an N>30 doesn't invalidate the study.

Re:Horrible Testing

[ccnull]

Howdy, I'm the editor in chief of Mobile Magazine and some of your complaints have a bit of merit, and obviously we'd love to do an even better job of this next year. But keep in mind these issues:

1) It is extrememly hard to "break" a computer in such a way that it is a) fixable via phone and b) something that could conceivably be blamed on the computer and not, say, a third-party application. What problems would you suggest we introduce?
2) Given the simplicity of the problems we presented, we would expect ANY entry-level rep to be able to fix the problem without concern for, say, how our router was configured -- which was irrelevant. Is this valid?
3) You have to create different problems for Apple. There's just no way around it. The Mac problem IS a real problem -- it was based on a problem our art director had only a few months earlier.
4) Remember that a huge part of the equation is time spent on hold, general knowledgeability of the tech, and other qualitative information.
5) Consumer Reports gave Apple its high rating in June 2004 (if I'm reading their website properly... it has some broken pages). Last year we also gave Apple high marks, but their support has dropped catastrophically since then.

Finally, to correct your post: It was 3 calls per vendor, not 1 call with 3 problems. We tried back on different days and at different times.

Rating tech support is a real can of worms. Do you rely on surveys like PC Magazine, which are painfully easy for vendors to manipulate and ballot-stuff? In rating 10 companies, our writer spent some 13 hours on the phone making 30 calls. Should he have spent 130 hours making 300 calls? You'd be shocked how similar the experience you'll find in one call to the next even in just the 3 calls. I have little doubt that the next 7 calls would be just as terrible for our losers.

Is it a perfect system? No, but given our resources, time constraints, and the realities of life, it works extremely well. I stand by the story.

CN

Re:Horrible Testing

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh c'mon, just realize it: Too small sample size!

Re:Horrible Testing

[rsborg]

Howdy, I'm the editor in chief of Mobile Magazine and some of your complaints have a bit of merit, and obviously we'd love to do an even better job of this next year.

Thanx for the politeness. I'm glad to see that people don't necessarily get defensive when valid complaints are voiced.

1) It is extrememly hard to "break" a computer in such a way that it is a) fixable via phone and b) something that could conceivably be blamed on the computer and not, say, a third-party application. What problems would you suggest we introduce?

Hmm... how about basic hardware issues (like, my keyboard is broken, or i get random spots on my monitor) or OS issues (like, I lost my files, or why is the system slow at times)

3) You have to create different problems for Apple. There's just no way around it. The Mac problem IS a real problem -- it was based on a problem our art director had only a few months earlier.

No, what it shows is that you guys have very little Mac experience. If you had enough sample usage, I'm sure you could come up with mor reasonable complaints than "booting off a network drive..." WTH? I've never done this with a mac or windows box.

5) Consumer Reports gave Apple its high rating in June 2004 (if I'm reading their website properly... it has some broken pages). Last year we also gave Apple high marks, but their support has dropped catastrophically since then.

I'm sorry, please send URLs to reference where "their support has dropped catastrophically since then". You get broken links because you're not a subscriber. If you don't provide sources for assertions like this, they're effectively irrelevant.

In rating 10 companies, our writer spent some 13 hours on the phone making 30 calls. Should he have spent 130 hours making 300 calls? You'd be shocked how similar the experience you'll find in one call to the next even in just the 3 calls. I have little doubt that the next 7 calls would be just as terrible for our losers.

No, you should a) either have more raters, or specifically lay out your equation for determining your values. A good way some review sites do this is by segmenting their grade by sections (holdtime rating, knowledeability rating, friendliness, etc). That way, I can refigure what is important to me (ie, knowledgeable reps are usually not an issue, if they are professional and actually listen to me).

Re:Horrible Testing

[ccnull]

Hmm... how about basic hardware issues (like, my keyboard is broken, or i get random spots on my monitor) or OS issues (like, I lost my files, or why is the system slow at times)

You still aren't quite there: These problems can't be fixed via telephone. If your monitor is hosed, you need a new monitor. Telephone support can't be fairly tested with made up issues like "I have spots on my monitor." It has to be something they can legitimately address.

I'm sorry, please send URLs to reference where "their support has dropped catastrophically since then". You get broken links because you're not a subscriber. If you don't provide sources for assertions like this, they're effectively irrelevant.

I think you misunderstood my comment. I'm saying that IN OUR TESTING, Apple support has fallen dramatically since mid-2004, when both Consumer Reports and Mobile last tested them. Consumer Reports is frankly out of date. Yes, I am a subscriber. They have broken links because their website is busted. Email me if you want the specific linkage.

No, you should a) either have more raters, or specifically lay out your equation for determining your values. A good way some review sites do this is by segmenting their grade by sections (holdtime rating, knowledeability rating, friendliness, etc). That way, I can refigure what is important to me (ie, knowledgeable reps are usually not an issue, if they are professional and actually listen to me).

Good idea (at least the equation part -- having more testers is a resources issue), we'll consider it for next year. We may also do a reader poll to supplement our testing, so we can better see if our results match up with other's experiences.

maybe it really isn't about service

[yagu]

I've posted on this before... one of many episodes of trying to get support. In this particular case, I pretty much KNEW what the problem was, which as I'm sure many/most slashdotters also try to determine before resorting to call tech support.

From the word "go", (ironic), it was clear my dance with HP (love their product... a laptop zx5000) was less about them helping me solve my problem and more about them doing anything they possibly could to avoid doing warranty work! And, once they discovered I had a dual boot machine, they immediately jumped to the claim that dual-booting my machine voided the warranty, though not one of the support people I talked to (I talked to four) could point to the words in the warranty whereby dual-booting my machine really did void the warranty.

This was not a unique experience for me... my typical experience is usually along the lines of:

• reboot the machine (as if I'd not tried that multiple times)
• uninstall the drivers around specific bad behavior
• re-install drivers
• complete OS re-install or system re-image.

I don't know what HP and other companies are smoking when they put together "support" staff, but based on empirical and andecdotal evidence they don't "get it". Especially for the slashdot type (not being elitist... just pragmatic) it would be nice to be able to get to a support call where you either get to skip the preamble (see above list) and immediately discuss symptoms and possible causes along with solutions.

So, bottom line, I see the problem being:

• Companies create support centers as a first line of defense by either:
  • creating so much FUD and confusion to the uninitiated consumer they give up in frustration and just go on living with their "problem"
  • arguing with the more savvy consumers on the merits of whether or not warranty service applies
• Companies creating support centers in the belief that support is doable with non-expert staff using only a flow-chart of "troubleshooting techniques" and "countermeasures"
• Companies create support centers ignoring that often consumers are quite technical and have done most of the work up front and are ready to talk shop by the time they call a support line. This lack of consideration to the consumer ends up costing the company in good will, the company in time spent for support that really isn't, and for the consumer in wasted time jumping through unnecessary initial hoops they'd already considered.

Oh, and I don't see this getting better soon, if ever. Sigh.

Re:maybe it really isn't about service

[bhtooefr]

Actually, I've heard that HP doesn't support dual-boot more than once.

I once read a story that said that one guy called tech support, who said to install a second copy of Windows 2000, which didn't fix the problem (which, IIRC, was hardware related). He then called again, and got told that dual-boot wasn't supported, and the phone monkey voided the warranty. So, this guy had to PAY to get the second copy removed, AND get his problem fixed (he went to a local computer repair shop).

This was in PC World, and (of course) HP quickly paid for his repairs, and explained that they do SOME tech support outsourcing, and his first call was sent to a 3rd-party tech support center in Canada...

See why I don't use HP? (Actually, it's because their printer ink costs too much, they SHIP their PCs with spyware (run an anti-spyware app like Spybot S&D on it without connecting it to the internet, and tell me there isn't spyware - you don't even have to update Spybot!), and their hardware is crap, quite frankly. I've never dealt with their support, because the hardware that I've had that failed failed outside of warranty.)

Re:maybe it really isn't about service

[robin_j]

Especially for the slashdot type (not being elitist... just pragmatic) it would be nice to be able to get to a support call where you either get to skip the preamble (see above list) and immediately discuss symptoms and possible causes along with solutions.

I have worked for a very large IT company supporting both internal and external customers and I can tell you that this really isn't possible. Do you know how many people claim to be experts on things they know nothing about? And yes, programmers are one of the worst culprits I've ever met.
Plus how do you know who's an expert and who's just chancing their arm? Should the company organise a test for all it's customers to see who really has a clue about what they are doing?

Re:maybe it really isn't about service

[bill_mcgonigle]

Companies create support centers ignoring that often consumers are quite technical and have done most of the work up front and are ready to talk shop by the time they call a support line.

Every once in a while you get a good tech on the line. I used to do support in College, so when I called up Apple about an XServe lockup problem I told him the symptom, the checks I had done, the results, and where I thought the problem might lie, he said, "my god, this is the best call I've ever had. Let me give you an RMA number." This worked out really well for both of us, the problem was fixed and the call was done in 5 minutes.

Of course, I've had had my share of "I am wanting to be transferring you to another technician" calls too.

current tech support guy

[Anonymous Coward]

Thankfully, the people I deal with work for big corporations which have little tolerance for incompetence.

My company has a "one year tech support with purchase" policy. After that, you buy the tech support on a yearly subscription model. No way will I support someone who hasn't paid for it. Maybe their license is pirated, maybe not, and maybe it's someone who is just trying to leech off of us. Only after money has changed hands, do we have any obligation to them.

Acer deserve their bottom place, avoid at all cost

[Peter Cooper]

Acer deserve the bottom place in this experiment. My father's Aspire failed six months after he bought it, and he sent it back. It took almost three months, a gang of lawyers, and an Internet campaign to get it back from them fully repaired.

We rapidly found out that other people had had even worse problems, and that Acer's support system is not to be relied upon to get the job done quickly. As such, I've been put off a manufacturer that had previously seemed decent. Avoid at all costs.

I've had horrible results with HP support

[Ritz_Just_Ritz]

I ordered their most expensive Athlon64 Presario Notebook about 6 months ago. I was very happy with it. Very fast and was perfect for my needs. After about 2 months, the video died. The unit would work just fine with an external monitor. So I called up support and got sent to some Indian call center. I described the problem and asked for a RMA number. The tech said he needed to go through a series of troubleshooting steps first. So I wasted about an hour with this guy (who's accent made it virtually impossible to understand him...and I've actually worked in Bangalore!). Finally, he agrees to RMA the unit.

About 10 days later, I get the notebook back and it's suffering from EXACTLY THE SAME problem. So I call up and describe the problem, explain that it's still broken with exactly the same symptoms, and am told I need to go through the same silly troubleshooting session...another hour of my time wasted. They RMA the unit. About 8 days later, it comes back and works fine. Two days later, the video fails with exactly the same symptoms (worked with external monitor). At this point, I called and said I wanted a new unit when they insisted I send it in for a third time. I escalated things several levels above the tech and they outright refused to give me a new computer. So I went to HP's website and filed a polite description of the issue and a complaint about the service to the "email Carly" link. The very next morning, an Indian women called and very apologetically offered to send me a new unit with an upgraded processor and a DVD burner (rather than CD/RW) to compensate me for my trouble.

And it's worked fine ever since. But I don't think I'd ever buy another HP/Compaq notebook. The call center experience was by far the most annoying and inefficient that I've ever experienced. When it came time for me to decide which notebooks to buy for my company (only about 100 units), I went with Sony Vaios even though they were quite a bit more expensive since I'd always had good experiences with their tech support.

Cheers,

true story

[Anonymous Coward]

Troubleshooting a compaq lapotop at work (unable to boot), i had to go online and chat with customer service support. that wass last year, support for compaq was now handled by HP.

HP Customer Service: Hi, my name is Steven, how may I be of assistance.

Me: Hi, I have this compaq (model) here that won't boot, and i don't have the recovery cd.

HP Customer Service: Are you currently typing from this laptop?

Me: :(

If it just was possible to may for better support

[Husgaard]

The biggest problem I run into with tech support is the huge amount of rules and regulations the call center people have to follow. Instead of me calling up Gateway and saying "Hey my modem is fried, I know what I'm doing with computers, send me a new one" I have to go through an hour of pointless troubleshooting. For a $5 part with $3 shipping they should just send me the part.

This reminds me of lately when I had a problem with my cable modem. I called the ISP on a friday telling them that my internet connection was not working, and they told me to power cycle my cable modem. After I did that my internet connection worked again. Two days after on sunday I had the same problem and called them again. I did the same thing, and told the supporter that I had the same problem two days before and that I suspected the cable modem had a defect and asked them to mail me another one so I could replace it. They refused and told me that they would send a technician the next day. Early monday morning the technician came and I told him that the cable modem was the problem and that I wanted a new one. He replied "You are going to get a new one anyway just in case, but I am also going to do some measurements on the equipment connected to it just to make sure that the defect isn't caused by something connected to the modem. The new cable modem could break again if the problem is due to something connected to it." So he measured the router attached to it and the line to the ISP. After finding no problems he replaced the cable modem that had failed twice but could be "repaired" in a few seconds by turning off the power.

This is really good service. I have to say that this was probably because I pay extra for a "professional" connection - about twice the amount I would have to pay if I had selected the cheapest ISP with the same bandwidth. For other customers having the same ISP but other internet subscriptions I have heard really horrible stories about support.

I guess this story shows that "what you get is what you pay for" is at least sometimes true.

Also the call center person has his/her hands tied when fixing the problem. Recently my cable internet service did not discontinue my service when I told them to. Even though it was obvious they needed to credit my account for the extra month they charged me for, the representative could not due to some rule. If he was trusted to just make the decision things would go much smoother.

Yeah, I have seen similar problems several times before. Both with ISPs and in other areas.

In the area of laptops it is really bad. It looks like all vendors have agreed to keep a low level of support. I wouldn't mind paying a bit extra for my laptop if I knew I could get better support and service for it.

I've seen it all

[grundie]

I worked for a Stream International for a few months. When I worked there they provided support for HP, Compaq, Dell and a few other smaller PC manufacturers. I had just finished my computing degree and seeing as there were no decent jobs to be had, I took a job at Stream.

The support we provided was shit, simple as that. A good 90% of reps knew nothing about computers before starting work and were lucky to get 2 weeks of training. The 'mentors' who were supposed to train us were useless as well. There was an obsession with the DOS debug.exe application. They seemed to think it could fix any PC problem. I did try to explain it was more of a programmers tool, but they wouldn't listen. Outside of the big name contracts (i.e. the smaller PC makers) there was a policy of making the caller do a low level format of their system (using debug.exe WTF?) and re-install Windows before an engineer was sent out. I once took a call from an elderly chap who had been forced to reformat his system twice and lose all his data, simply because his keyboard was set to the US layout rather than the UK layout. I got sick of the low wages and questionable ethics and left the place after three months.

Most PC manufacturers see support as an expense they need to minimise, so it is inevitable support quality will suffer. My experience taught me never to use technical support lines ever again.

Price beats all.

[jlseagull]

I own an ABS Mayhem G1. Dual hyperthreaded 2.8GHz P4, 1GB memory, 80GB HDD, ATI 9600 video card, 15" widescreen. Dual boots Suse 9.2 and XP. Price? $900 flat one year ago.

Tech support, in a word, blows. I've learned not to even try. Twice I was going to return the machine to them, but they never called me back with an RTV number, and I gave up and fixed it myself.

I don't care, because the machine was so cheap. The BIOS chip falls out, the machine occasionally overheats and shuts down, the power brick smoked itself, and the case on top of where the hard drive is has the imprint of my palm burned into it because the drive isn't cooled right. Screws rattle about in the case. Battery life is a cool 72 minutes.

I've had Dells before, and their support is good, but I'll take price over customer service every time.

Re:Price beats all.

[Dogtanian]

I own an ABS Mayhem G1 [...] The BIOS chip falls out, the machine occasionally overheats and shuts down, the power brick smoked itself, and the case on top of where the hard drive is has the imprint of my palm burned into it because the drive isn't cooled right. Screws rattle about in the case. Battery life is a cool 72 minutes.

What did you expect with a name like that, then?! I bet you have 'Neverpay' motor insurance as well...

Re:Price beats all.

[jlseagull]

You know, I never really thought about it like that.

'Mayhem'. Explains a lot.

Thanks for the laugh. :)

Thank you manufacturers

[ScorpioIlya]

This is why we'll always be in business. I work for Computer Geeks, the largest on-site company in Boston. We're growing. Like Crazy. Thanks to Dell, Hp, Acer, etc...because people will spend 2 hours with dell, 1 hour with microsoft, 1 hour with comcast, and then give up, open the yellow book and pony up the $250 bucks or so for us to come out to their homes...jump up and down for them, unscrew the problem, and play therapist for 2 and a half hours.

Yet another Apple slam

[EvilStein]

I worked as an AppleCare support rep. If a customer doesn't feel that the issue is resolved (and clearly these "testers" didn't) then all they have to do is ask to have the issue escalated.
About the broken Wifi "test" - there are *so many* brands of 802.11 base stations out on the market that if you're not getting any network information at all, and the computer thinks everything is ok (Tiger has a nice "Network Diagnostic" utility) then suggesting that you contact the manufacturer of the 802.11 base station certainly isn't a bad thing at all. It's a *third party product* (I'm goign to assume that they did't try with an Airport Base Station, because if they did, Apple would have addressed it.) and Apple's policy was to not even try to support 3rd party products.
The write up was pretty vague, and that's sad.

Re:Yet another Apple slam

[tin foil hat dude]

I worked at Apple for over 4 years, and finally it was leave or get fired. --I had 14 managers in the time I was there. I was hired as a tech, and left becaquse I couldn't SELL enough. In Austin at least most of the management seems to have come from Dell retreads. As for Apple tech support, I would NEVER pay for it because its worse than useless. I really think that its just overpriced babysitting. and the Genius thing is correct, as soon as the stores started opening up all the SMART tech support people immediately moved into the stores leaving the call centers stuck with the 90 day wonders and hacks. I was in high end desktop support, and left when I saw the writing on the wall and I started getting windows I-Pod calls. I pointed out to my supervisor that I knew nothing about windows, but was rebuffed and told just to work on selling. The quality of Apple tech support has really bottomed out since they quit giving a damn about it and the good people that they had and started treating them as expendable and immediately replaceable.

If it just was possible to pay for support

[Husgaard]

The heading said: If it just was possible to may for better support

What I really wanted for the heading was: If it just was possible to pay for better support, I would do it.

That's one of the reasons I don't like notebooks

[Harry Balls]

Really tough to repair it if something breaks.
Swapping out the motherboard or even just the CPU is a major hassle.
The one and only counter example is: Memory upgrades are easier done than in desktop computers (due to a memory access hatch).

horrible study but good point

[rocketman327]

I've totally given up calling IT support. Not one in the past 4 years that i've called that they've actually helped me. I recently had a problem with Belkin. They had a bug in their firmware, but they refused to admit it. Six months later after many calls they finally got sick of me calling and sent me a new router. At one point I even think I had convinced them that there was a bug in their firmware but still they refused to fix it. The only computer related thing that I can get good tech help on is Linux cause it has a great community who actually care and know what they are doing.

Re:horrible study but good point

[BCW2]

You came very close to the real problem. No company in any industry cares about the customer after the sale. They have all forgotten that the big money is in repeat customers through the years. Now it's just get this sale and we'll sorry about next year, next year. Short term greed is going to kill half the companies you can name.

Not a very good test

[houghi]

and annoying fixation with pinning down our name, address, and serial numbers.

With the serial numer they can see if you are still entiteld to have support or not. Also they can see what hardware/software you have as a standard. A typical call:

Hello, my DVD bruner does not work.
- What is your serial?
123-456-789
The DVD-burner was not in there at the moment of purchase. We can not give support on that. Sorry.

The same happens with (non-included) software, like Outlook instead of Outlook Express.
People call to ask support on their Longhorn Beta instalation.

This can all be nice, but if you can vut down costs by several precent by banning these calls, what would you do if you have several hundred people working for you?

The serial number can also be enough to filter people out who had to call another company (ibm customers calling HP)

The timeconsuming part of entering name and adress and so on is because out of respect and because of cost. If I need to send you a new instalation CD, I want to be sure you get it. (The same goes for marketing that uses the same data)

Normaly this happens only the first time. The second time a simple verification should be enough.

Toshiba the champion? Are you kidding me?

[forceflow2]

I have had nothing but problems with their Tech Support. The laptop I have works excellently...well, when it works. I've sent it back to them no less than 3 times for issues. First time, my HDD died. I was on the phone for about 2 hours while we discussed ways to test whether it was really dead or just sorta dead and therefore not covered by the warranty...after sending it in, I called for a status update. Response? "We have no record of your laptop." They said they would look around and call back. After three hours of waiting, I called them back and they once again said they didn't know where it was, but to call back the next day. Calling back the next day met with a better response of "We found the laptop, but now the Support request has expired, so we have to file a new one, which may take a while." Are you serious? The support request is supposed to last 10 business days. I sent it in 2 days after getting the RMA (I got it on the weekend) and it arrived on Friday, that was 4 days. That's not 10...Not surprisingly, subsequent calls were met with "We've sent the laptop to the repair depot, so you need to talk to them, we'll connect you." The repair depot didn't know what was going on, but they were able to give me a number I could use to reference my case. At least they knew about my laptop. They apparently got it in and worked on it...for a while... All in all, the first call was not a success, it took exactly 30 days from the date they received the laptop to get it back to me, despite having purchased their special quick repair service that guarantees a turnaround of 3 days (business days) even with shipping. Call 2? My motherboard had just flat up died. The computer refused to boot, it just sorta turned on a lit up. This call went a little better as the tech was convinced that it was the motherboard that was dead within 15 minutes and provided me with a case number and shipping materials (part of the special service) which arrived the next day. Sending it in and getting it back took no time at all, less than 3 days as promised, and my problems were fixed (except my touchpad didn't function correctly, but I didn't use it anyways so it could have been a problem previous to this.) Third time was due to my laptop failing to charge. This was resolved in about 2 hours again, as we went through "we don't support batteries out of warranty" for about an hour while I tried to convince them that it wasn't a battery issue, it was the receptor on the laptop had broken loose (which is apparently a common problem among Toshiba laptops according to the "support" forums.) Overall? Toshiba gets a C-. Their Tech Support people are terrible at diagnosing hardware issues as they definitely read from a sheet of questions and they take forever to get anywhere with. Their repair services are very good though, every time I sent in my laptop it came back as good as new (as far as I could tell). Their hardware (when it doesn't fail on me) works incredibly well, and as a bonus, most of the hardware is fully Linux compatible!

Never mind the tech support...

[Curmudgeonlyoldbloke]

Which notebook isn't going to fail in the first place?

There are a few reliability surveys around, but they tend to be a bit general ("IBM, Good; Dell, Fair" - that sort of thing).

The paper mags don't seem consider anything other than "what's new next week", and web campaigns only get launched when somethign seriously goes wrong (as the person below relates about an issue with Acer).

Fujitsu is the champ....

[Anonymous Coward]

shortest response time.
shortest total time on phone.
they have multiple levels of tech support.
rather than wiping OS over the corrupt file, I request for 'higher tier' support would have gotten you more competence.

while their build quality is not the best, I've had nothing but THE BEST treatment from Fujitsu. They even bought back a laptop I'd had for 9 months, at full price! because it did not meet published environmental specs and I did not want to chance another of the same model after 3 trips to their depot.

Turn around is fast. Fujitsu depot is at fed ex hub in Memphis.

I don't work for them. They don't pay me for anything. Their products could be better. But, they do take care of their customers!

Re:Fujitsu is the champ....

[LurkerXXX]

My experience is exactly the opposite. Our department bought two Fujitsu Point510 tablet computers. This was prior to my being with them. The old tech guy for the dept had quite. Apparently he had set bios passwords on them, but didn't let anyone know what the password was.

I called Fujitsu to find out if there was a jumper on the motherboard to connect to reset it or something. Their response? "You need to contact the reseller that sold it to you for tech support". WTF??? After checking, it turns out the reseller had gone out of buisness. I called Fujitsu to find out what to do? They had no suggestion, and refused to help. I'll never buy a Fujitsu product for the rest of my life.

But it is their responsibility

[unicorn]

At least nominally. When you buy a system with Windows bundled in, the hardware vendor is the point of contact for OS support. MS won't help you at all, without a credit card up front.

Acer tech support still crappy? What a surprise..

[Anonymous Coward]

Before saying anything else, here's the disclaimer - I used to work for Acer's notebook technical support division, before they relocated the call center to Texas. I'm not at all surprised that Acer scored the booby prize for worst technical support, because they sure sucked big time when I used to work for them.

Back when Acer employed me in the late 1990's, the company never wanted to spend much money to support their customers. The company hired warm bodies and they hired them cheaply - many of my co-workers were completely clueless about technology. No matter how you slice it, previous customer service experience in retail sales does not qualify you to fix notebook computers. However, the only thing my supervisors ever really cared about was how many calls per hour I could take. Sadly, you didn't have to know anything about fixing computers to keep your call metrics up. Hell, the easiest way to make your stats look good was to just dump tech support calls as soon as you could, which is part of the reason why Acer's support sucked so hard. As an Acer tech support employee, you looked better when you did a shitty job.

Since Acer's management only focused on the numbers, they never really understood why their customers were so unhappy. As I saw it, Acer management always spent more time playing lip service to the notion of customer satisfaction than doing anything to improve customer relations. Even back then, Acer always scored low in satisfaction surveys because the company refused to spend money. They didn't want to hire qualified techs and they didn't want to give their techs the time they needed to do their jobs.

On more than one occasion, I watched my support manager at Acer game the system by switching his costs onto other departments in the company. He liked doing this because it made his own budget numbers look better. This often forced me to offer customers 'support' solutions that cost more as a whole and frequently made no sense. For example, I had a customer in Vancover one time who had just received his computer back from repair, but the service techs hadn't sent a power cord with the system. What was my manager's solution? Ship the customer a replecement power cable, all the way from our depot in San Jose, CA. My solution - ask the local Acer retailer to grab a $5 power cable off their shelves and send someone to deliver the cable to the customer's home. The store staff were willing - they were tired of dealing with the customer and just wanted to get him out of their hair - but my manager didn't want to take even a $5 hit to his budget. If we'd have done it the way I wanted, Acer would have had to reimburse the store for the cable. However, because it would have come out of our department's budget, my manager didn't want to hear about it. That was his excuse anyway. So, instead of fixing the problem that day, we made the customer wait a week and shipped a stupid power cord via UPS Ground a distance of over 2,000 miles. I have little doubt that we spent more money doing it this way, but what the hell - it didn't come out of our department's budget, right?

Acer also had, at least when I worked for them, a disturbing propensity to lie. They lied to both their customers and to their own employees. When the company bought Texas Instruments notebook computer division, which is how Acer's call center ended up in Temple, TX, they held a meeting with all of the tech support employees in San Jose, CA. The president of the company swore up and down that there wouldn't be any layoffs due to the aquisition. But, less than a week later, one of my coworkers discovered how to access an email account of the VP who ran our division. We started seeing emails to this VP about something called Project STAR, which we soon realized was management's plan to close the call center in California and move everything to Texas. Why? The guys in Texas were paid 2/3rds of what the support staff in California made. The news got out, management tried to keep a lid on th

I didn't even have to call apple

[fredmosby]

When I had a problem with my iPod I just went to their website and told them that the right earbud was blown out. Replacement earbuds arrived at my apartment 2:00 the next day.

Hardware?

[Deliveranc3]

This is slashdot, we do our own installs we replace what's broken.

A more interesting test would be to see who does the best job of replacing broken hardware.

I'm pretty tired of dealing with garbage tech support when some peice of hardware is broken, replacing and fixing it at their end should be the norm.

Replacing it before I send it in would be amazing but I understand the problems involved with such a setup.

Refunding postage would be nice though :(

my experience with Toshiba techsupport

[porky_pig_jr]

I had to call Toshiba tech support a couple of times. Both times got somebody in India even if they've claimed they are in Canada. BUT they were willing to help and took their time to find the answers. The only problem was with their help --- well, it wasn't entirely correct, not quite helpful so to speak. But Toshiba has a wealth of technical information on-line, and going through all the docs I've found the right information anyway.

But the bottom line is that my Tosh laptop is very reliable, so I don't have lots of reasons to call tech support anyway. So that's my advice: get a laptop with good records, and make sure information on line is available. For instance, I was able to locate detailed repair manual for my laptop, written for pros servicing laptops, not low-life like me, but the manual is very detailed and carefully explains how to take it apart and replace virtually anything. Can't complain about that.

stupid contrived tests

[JimBobJoe]

I remember several years ago a local TV station was testing the break/fix abilities of local stores (Best Buy, Circuit City, et cetera.)

The contrived test they came up with was to bring a computer that won't boot up--the cause was the ribbon cable on the hard drive was upside down (which is unusual today because ribbon cables have the little notch to prevent that.) The solutin they were looking for for the technician to put the ribbon cable correctly.

Everyone failed the test except for one store (as I recall.) A lot of places recommended replacing the motherboard and/or hard drive.

I don't think the test was appropriate. If you bring in a computer and say its broken, you would not have expected this type of "sabotage." It's like going to an auto mechanic with your spark plugs upside down. It just doesn't happen.

Re:stupid contrived tests

[Anonymous Coward]

I worked at a tech shop. In a year I saw this about 5-10 times. when people install a hard drive on their own, or another piece of hardware, they do stuff like this.

on a side note, I once had a drive that had the middle pin, but the connector had the blank spot where it needed to go. I drilled a hole in the connector, worked XD.

Re:stupid contrived tests

[japhmi]

The contrived test they came up with was to bring a computer that won't boot up--the cause was the ribbon cable on the hard drive was upside down (which is unusual today because ribbon cables have the little notch to prevent that.) The solutin they were looking for for the technician to put the ribbon cable correctly.

When I can't access a HD, I will unplug the cable, blow out the areas, and plug it back in. It's one of the first things to come to mind.

Now, if this was over the phone, I prob. wouldn't tell someone to do that. If they brought it in to me, that's what I would do (and I only tinker, I don't work at a repair shop or anything).

Re:stupid contrived tests

[Kent Recal]

When I can't access a HD, I will unplug the cable, blow out the areas, and plug it back in. It's one of the first things to come to mind.

Sounds like a strange approach to me.
I'm sysadmin for a living (over 2yrs now) and I think I have never removed the cable, "blown" it and plugged it back in when I encounter a broken drive.

I usually only apply some pressure to the plug to make sure it
hasn't loosened over time.

I don't think dust can collect inside the plug-holes to an amount where it would interfere with operation while it's plugged in. Unless you're in a *very* dusty enviroment...

So, when I made sure that it's properly plugged in and it still doesnt work then I usually connect a fresh drive to the same cable to determine whether the drive or the controller is broken. I have never had an IDE cable fail in normal operation (you can ofcourse break them by deliberate bending but that doesn't happen so often inside a closed PC case).

Well, my point is, I agree with GP that these articial test scenarios are just braindead and prove nothing except what we all know: TV shows like that are made by stupid people for an even more stupid audience.

Toshiba...

[Trip Ericson]

I have only been satisfied with support twice in my life.

Toshiba and DeLorme are the only two companies that I can honestly say had good support.

I know DeLorme (mapping software) is a bit off topic, but what happened was I had gotten TopoUSA 5.0 for my birthday (I had 4.0 before) but it was in CD form. In CD form, it takes 7 CDs to cover the US, however it's only one DVD.

Now my birthday is at the end of October. This software was purchased in the middle of August and had a 30-day return/exchange policy. I called up support not expecting much help. I talked to the guy and explained exactly what happened. He gave me an RMA anyway and everything was good.

As far as Toshiba goes, I think they're a great computer company all around. I have had a Toshiba laptop since August 2003 with no issues I haven't brought upon myself (heh). I don't know anybody who has had a problem with a Toshiba. I will never buy a non-Toshiba laptop. Even if Toshiba never puts AMD chips in their laptops.

I decided one day to shift my partitions around. Take a bit from RedHat and add it to Windows. Well, in the middle of it, my partition software crashed. It killed all of my non-Windows partitions (I had a C: for windows/programs, a Y: for documents and such, a few others, plus linux). Naturally GRUB panicked since it couldn't find /boot and I couldn't start Windows anymore. I did a bit of research and discovered fixmbr on the XP CD. Only problem was that when I tried to do it, it asked for an admin password. I had never set one (that I can remember, maybe Best Buy did?). So I called up tech support. I told them exactly what happened and that it was entirely my fault. They STILL tried to help me out, although they were ultimately unsuccessful. A few hours after the phone call I discovered a password reset program that I was able to use and fix it.

Of course, YMMV.

wanna know why they've stopped doing this?

[RMH101]

it's because you're constantly being bounced down the queue. you know when they ask you to "press 1 for sales, 2 for support" etc? they're not putting you in different queues - they're putting you in the same one at a different priority. so if you're calling to buy something: you're put into the queue higher up, and the poor guys waiting for support get bounced down. an announcement that says "you are now...7th in the queue. you are now...15th in the queue" doesn't improve tempers...

Possibly even more malicious than that.

[mosel-saar-ruwer]

Also the call center person has his/her hands tied when fixing the problem. Recently my cable internet service did not discontinue my service when I told them to. Even though it was obvious they needed to credit my account for the extra month they charged me for, the representative could not due to some rule. If he was trusted to just make the decision things would go much smoother.

Judging from some of the horror stories I've heard in re: cable/satellite/cell phone billing nightmares, I wouldn't be surprised if this were a deliberate attempt on their part to bleed just a little more money out of you.

An awful lot of these outfits exist on paper thin margins, and it could very well be that that extra month of "erroneous" billing is the entirety of the profit that they will earn on your account.

Plus, these cable/satellite/cell phone enterprises seem to attract some of the very worst elements of our society [in terms of borderline criminality in business practice], and it wouldn't surprise me if they did it just because they thought they could get away with it. Of course, it also wouldn't surprise me if they did it out of sheer incompetence, either.

PS: Did you know that in almost every state in the union, a life insurance agency is NOT required to inform the estate of a deceased person that that person did in fact have a life insurance policy with them? E.g. if Joe Shmoe life insurance agent is glancing through the obituaries of his local newspaper, and notices that one of his clients has just died, then in most states, he is NOT required to notify his client's widow of the existence of the life insurance policy.

So if, say, 5% of a life insurance agency's deceased clients have estates that forget about the existence of a policy [or never knew about the existence of the policy in the first place], then that 5% might very well represent the sum total of their profits over all accounts.

The subject of where a business's true profits come from is really fascinating - e.g. almost all the profit that General Motors made over the course of the last decade or two came from their financing subsidiary, i.e. they essentially gave away cars for free [or even at a loss] so as to be able to make a profit on the interest that they charge purchasers who finance through them.

Re:Acer deserve their bottom place, avoid at all c

[demongp]

I can fully agree with this. In my humble opinion the Acer support is most probably the worst I have used. We (unfortunately) use mostly Acer laptops in our organization and we have given up sending units in for repair, and just live with the faults.

The main problem for me is that their first-line support personnel are not trained enough, which means you have to send a unit in to them for repairs for most problems - and this process takes at least a week. This is their call centre in South Africa, by the way.

On the other hand, at my previous company we used Dell machines almost exclusively and I have to say that their support is just fantastic. A previous poster mentioned the Service Tag system which works like a charm and ensures that you are always assisted speedily. Another thing is their turn-around time: on most warranty agreements you get Next Business Day Onsite support - which means they come out to you to fix the problem (be it hardware or software).

Like i mentioned earlier I am from South Africa, and service like Dell's isn't very prevalent here which is most probably why I was so impressed with them.