Hacking the Motorola v265

phoric writes "Unfortunately, Verizon Wireless cripples their phones so that you have to use their fee-based service in order to add new ringtones, or to transfer the pictures you take with the camera. The Verizon logo conceals the date display on the main screen and covers over the top portion of the background, among various other corporate silliness. Selling a device that is intentionally crippled is just plain ridiculous. Of course, the only natural thing to do in a situation like this is to hack it."

Comments

Corporate Silliness

[fembots]

Some call it Strategic Market Pricing and Positioning. Almost everybody's doing it, on things like digital cameras, DVD-writers, car engines, CPUs, MP3 players and games.

In order to cut cost, most manufactuers use obscurity as the only line of defence.

So will manufacturers be forced to have separate production lines for "Starter" and "Professional" products. Is it possible that one day when hacks are so common, manufactuers will find it cheaper (than losing the upper market sales) to have two lines so that they can price products for each market accordingly?

Re:Corporate Silliness

[macaulay805]

Kinda like what Nvidia does with the Geforce and Quatro lines?

Re:Corporate Silliness

[black6host]

It would be interesting to know the percentage of equipment that is actually hacked. That would be a deciding factor as to as to whether or not it's worth it to incur the additional expense of re-tooling.

Re:Corporate Silliness

[bhtooefr]

Intel and AMD actually did that in the Celeron Mendocino and the Duron pre-Applebred days - the Mendocino and Morgan cores were actually developed specifically for the budget chips.

Intel had tried to use a regular P2 missing the (external) cache, made on the same production line, for the Celeron (Covington), but that was a real dog. Now, of course, they use the broken Pentium (3/4/M) cores to make a Celeron (D in the case of some P4s, M in the case of P-Ms).

Re:Corporate Silliness

[arose]

In order to maximize profits, you can't cut costs by disabling what's already there.

Re:Corporate Silliness

[tomhudson]

In order to maximize profits, you can't cut costs by disabling what's already there.

Sure you can. Modem manufacturers used to do it all the time - 1 assembly line, 1 printed circuit board, etc., is cheaper than 2. Just cut a few traces and your 56k faxmodem is now a 33k modem w/o fax.

Same with software - it may be capable of n number of users at once, but its been crippled so that you need to buy licenses for each user.

Re:Corporate Silliness

[Rakishi]

You don't understand the situation, Motorola makes a phone with X features. They make one fully working version, you buy such a version through Verizon. Again, fully working hardware wise or at least before Verizon got it. Verizon now disables certain features which are already working to make more money, some quite ridiculously.

I guess an analogy would be getting a discount on a computer if you sign up for some internet access. The computer comes with a cd-rom drive however the internet access provider has a custom bios which disables most of its functions. Only way to get most files onto/off-of it is by using their internet service and paying them for it.

Re:Corporate Silliness

[Jett]

I remember those original celerons, they ran at 266mhz but without the L2 you could clock them up to 450mhz with no problem in even the crappiest of systems, and at that time the fastest P2 was a 400mhz (if I remember correctly). Performance-wise it would actually perform the same as an equally clocked p2 in almost all apps, particularly in games.
Later they released the Celeron-A which was a P2 with the L2 cache actually incorporated into the die - so it ran at the same speed. It was only like 128k, but still - if you got a good chip (and later in the run most were good) you could OC like mad and actually out-perform an equally clocked pentium with external L2. The thing is the most any of these celerons ever cost was around $90 or so, compared to $300+ for the crap named "Pentium".

Re:Corporate Silliness

[Rakishi]

I forgot to add: You also can't pay Y to get a phone with all features enabled or buy a "better" model because it simply doesn't exist (if you use verizon that is). In other words, Verizon is disabling features so you're forced to use their services and pay more.

Re:Corporate Silliness

[LMariachi]

1 assembly line, 1 printed circuit board, etc., is cheaper than 2. Just cut a few traces and your 56k faxmodem is now a 33k modem w/o fax.

How exactly does this cut costs? If anything, the 33k should be more expensive since it takes an extra step in the production process.

Re:Corporate Silliness

[spuzzzzzzz]

You can't cut costs by disabling things, but you can increase profit:

Person A works a lot with CAD software and he can afford a NVidia Quadro 4000 or whatever it's called.

Person B wants to play DooM 3. He can't afford a Quadro, but he can afford a 6800 Ultra.

Now, it's cheaper for NVidia to make 2 Quadros than a Quadro and a GeForce 6800 because they only need 1 assembly line. If they try to charge person B the Quadro price for his card, he won't buy it. If they offer person B the Quadro for the Geforce price, person A would have no incentive to pay full price for his Quadro. So they disable a bunch of features in person B's Quadro before selling it to him as a Geforce 6800.

Re:Corporate Silliness

[Dorothy 86]

By not requiring a completely separate production line.

Re:Corporate Silliness

[jcgf]

I think he means that your overall costs would go down ie $56k + $33k > $56k + $(cut traces on the odd card). So it's like you have designs for two different pieces of hardware at the cost of one. Now whether or not it would be better for everyone if they would just sell the 56k at a decent price is another matter.

Re:Corporate Silliness

[arose]

You can't cut costs by disabling things, but you can increase profit

And I was saying?

Re:Corporate Silliness

[Ucklak]

You can have a run of 10,000 PCB's.
The next 10,000 you cut a trace.
The next 10,000 you stamp a Compaq logo on it
etc...

Manufacturing is a cheap process when you're not doingg a 1-up. Same with printing

Re:Corporate Silliness

[Jett]

From what I remember the original celerons were with in a few percentage points of the P2 in every single benchmark except for "office producivity" apps - i.e. they choked on crap like Word and Excel. Besides that they were comparable. For my purposes at the time that meant playing games, a few fps difference wasn't worth the several hundred dollars more for a "real" pentium. I had a 266 original celeron clocked up to 450 with dual voodoo2's in it - it ran within a few fps of the same system running a p2. I've still got all that gear laying around, I'm almost tempted to throw it back together and relive the glory days of quake1...

Re:Corporate Silliness

[DigiShaman]

How exactly does this cut costs? If anything, the 33k should be more expensive since it takes an extra step in the production process.

It's called market saturation. Take the CPU industry for example. While it may cost a few bucks more to fab a Pentium Extreme vs Celeron, you just destroyed your potential profit margin if both CPUs were priced nearly the same. In fact, some of newest "lowend" CPUs to come out of the fab are just UNDERCLOCKED CPUs rebranded.

The idea is to capture your profits at the high-end. Selling the low-end stuff at cost is just... tangible marketing.

Re:Corporate Silliness

[DigiShaman]

Capitalism is all about what a person is willing to pay for said goods and services. Take e-bay for example. While you might often find a lot of utter shit, someone else might find it of some value. In fact, two or three might find that same item valuable...hence a bidding war.

Funny that people will bitch about the cost of technology, but when it comes to low tech oil pantings from the 1500's it can become "priceless". Pfffttttt....SPARE ME! Everything has a price in this world, even your life (and mine for that matter).

Re:Corporate Silliness

[MightyMartian]

In order to maximize profits, you can't cut costs by disabling what's already there.

Been done for years. Old single-sided floppies were actually double-sided, but only one side was tested. Intel's 80486SX was an 80486 with the math coprocessor disabled (not sure of the explanation, though I suspect, like single-sided floppies, it was cheaper to test if you didn't have to worry about a large chunk of the circuitry).

Re:Corporate Silliness

[sankyuu]

Cost cutting is performed on product testing.

Crippled products undergo a likewise stripped-down battery of tests. Savings are especially tangible if you're budgeting QA.

Re:Corporate Silliness

[inquisitor]

Have to disagree with you, the original 266es were dog slow for real world tasks - I used one for a time, it was about the speed of a P166MMX and glacial in comparison with an equivalent-speed PII, which I owned then. None of this applied to the 'A' series, of course, which had a very small speed difference to the PIIs - in fact, were possibly even faster in some tasks because of the full-speed cache. The 333A was very popular with overclockers for the reasons you state - people got it up to 500 and beyond surprisingly easily.

The Celeron had an interesting history - they were the first chip to move to sockets, and Abit made the surprisingly cheap BP6 motherboard that alllowed you to run two Celerons of this era (PPGA socket-370) in a SMP configuration. I suspect the BP6 was many people's first impression of SMP; it's a shame Intel made it harder in the FC-PGA line.

Re:Corporate Silliness

[arose]

At the end of the day, most people don't know this, so the system works fine

Problem beeing that people need to make informed decisions.

Re:Corporate Silliness

[rsynnott]

And people continue to buy the phones?! Eek. There'd be war over here if they tried that. The closest thing I can think of to it is that on themable phones, vodafone includes their own theme as default; but it is easily changable.

Re:Corporate Silliness

[Jett]

I could be misremembering, what kind of tasks were you using it for? For me it was all games and I had a dual voodoo2 set-up - the FPS I got were comparable to everyone I knew running a P2.

Re:Corporate Silliness

[inquisitor]

It was at a college and it was mostly Photoshop, at which it was truly slow - I suppose because of the lack of L2 cache. It was usable, but not great; especially when compared to the PII-266/64MB RAM machine I had at the time. (Now I have 64MB just on my laptop's graphics card, four times that on my desktop's, and four times that on my desktop's system RAM. Time goes on, I suppose.) Games at the time weren't particularly CPU-hitting - a P120 can still run Quake II or Half-Life OK, even in software mode - so I can see how you'd get very good FPS with it, especially with a SLI Voodoo2.

Obviously, you're one of the people for whom the chip was perfect - in which case, Intel didn't fail completely...

OMGWTFBBQ

[Quick Sick Nick]

Verizon doesn't give me free ringtones? This is ridiculous!

The only sensible thing to do is hack it so I can listen to the latest shitty pop songs to their full glory.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[Anonymous Coward]

Ringtones should be prohibitively expensive. Or, better, all phones should be crippled to not allow customized ringtones, period - except for a handful of pre-selected ones.

It's a phone. It's not a boombox. When your phone rings, it should... well.... ring. That Puddle of Mudd ringtone doesn't make you look hip or cool or interesting. And when you're in a business meeting or I hear your stupid 50-Cent ringtone from across the office ten times a day, I don't think you're cool. I think you're a fucking pretentious tool. Even moreso if you paid $2.99 for that 10 second song clip on your phone. In fact, the same thing goes if you have those stupid "cell phone covers/faces". Not to mention, if you're one of those assholes with the stupid wallpaper on their cell "desktop".

IT'S A PHONE. IT IS NOT A THIRTEEN YEAR OLD GIRL'S TRAPPER-KEEPER.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[bhtooefr]

As for wallpaper, it's not bad if you've got a data cable (or built-in IR (like I've got) or Bluetooth), because it's free (unless the bastards at your phone company disabled it. Shenanigans like that are why I won't look at Verizon (even though EVERYONE I know is either on it, or planning to go on it, and won't be stopped, so I can only call them on THEIR nights & weekends for it to be free for both). I'm on Sprint, FWIW.)

As for ringtones, I use a stock tone (not a ring, though). You see, it's for phone identification. I wouldn't EVER pay money for a tone. However, I'll never use the default tone, or a ring - that's what causes everyone to check their phones.

Faceplates, though? That's idiotic.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[agraupe]

The problem with this is, at least on my phone, all the default ringtones are shitty. Why can't they just provide a ringing phone ringtone? I have my phone permanently on vibrate, and that's the way it stays because I'm so fucking sick of the ringtone selection.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[arose]

Back to the god old times when everyone had to check their phone when it was ringing...

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[iminplaya]

...that's what causes everyone to check their phones.

And that's precisely why I look for the most common ring I can find. I live for the money shot.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[Sawbones]

Faceplates do have their purpose. I dropped my motorola v440 and cracked off part of the outer housing. The phone still worked but I didn't like exposed innards so I bought a silver "faceplate" off of ebay. presto, non-broken phone.

Now the neon dragon flashing whatever covers, those I'd agree on.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[garcia]

And when you're in a business meeting or I hear your stupid 50-Cent ringtone from across the office ten times a day, I don't think you're cool. I think you're a fucking pretentious tool. Even moreso if you paid $2.99 for that 10 second song clip on your phone.

Crazily enough, they aren't marketing to people who work in offices. Cell phones should be set to mute/vibrate or turned off while at work anyway.

The $1.99/2.99 r4ngt0n3z are marketed to douchebag kids that *are* "cool" when their lame friends hear them.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[hahiss]

Nothing like an anonymous coward deciding what we should and shouldn't want. . . . Too bad you didn't leave your email address so that we can all ask you for advice about how to run our lives.

FYI: In order to get a plain old ''phone ringing" ring tone on my phone, I had to download it and install it on my computer. At least the bluetooth wasn't crippled. (And MAN, it was hard finding an mp3 file of an old fashioned phone ringing that didn't totally suck.)

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[bhtooefr]

True - I guess I forgot about the phone repair aspect, and another one: the phone identification in multiple phone of the same model households aspect, which I've actually experienced... (phone backgrounds and stickers got me out of that one without buying a faceplate, though)

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[Mr2001]

As for wallpaper, it's not bad if you've got a data cable (or built-in IR (like I've got) or Bluetooth), because it's free (unless the bastards at your phone company disabled it. Shenanigans like that are why I won't look at Verizon

Verizon doesn't disable that feature, at least not on all phones. The LG VX7000 I have now, and the LG VX4400 I had before it, can both transfer ringtones and wallpapers over the data cable for free. You don't even need to buy Verizon's cable; you can get one for $10 at Radio Shack or on eBay.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[QuaZar666]

Maybe so, maybe in the "business professional" world, whatever the hell that is, but most companies now days don't care a whole lot as long as you turn the off to vibrate/silent. The only time I ever have my phone set to an audio alert is when I am expecting an important phone call.

Now as long as you want to limit the phone to only having one background, and one ringtone lets also remove text messenging, camras, wireless internet, bluetooth, etc.

Do you think people will like this? Probally not, the same way people won't like the removal of ringtones, or desktop pictures, etc. Now people are idiots if they pay for them when you can get a data cable and transfer them over to your phone with a cost of maybe $10.

IT IS NOT JUST A PHONE ANYMORE, GET OVER IT!!!

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[DeadChobi]

*snicker* My Nokia 3390 has this neat little ringtone where it beeps, waits 1.5 seconds, then beeps thrice with the center note a bit lower than its partners. It then doesnt do anything else. That's my favorite ringtone. It's so unobtrusive, IMHO, that I can use it in a library if I *must* have my phone on and be hearing it. The vibrating alert is actually louder than the ringtone. The best thing is the fact that I know that it's my phone ringing, and not somebody elses because I'm the only person I've ever met who tries to use an unobtrusive and quiet ringtone instead of the blaring noise most people favor.

And if you cant find a ringtone, see if you can find a composer function in your phone. Mine has one. All you need is three notes to be repeated in rapid succession followed by a bit of silence. Pretty simple.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[DrEldarion]

I don't like it either, but I fully support people doing whatever the hell they want to their property. If somebody wants to "mod" their phone/car/PC/XBox/body/whatever, nobody should be able to tell them they can't.

Just laugh at them for looking like a fool and move on.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[HyoImowano]

No, it's not a trapper keeper, but it is a small computer.

Do you really like looking at corporate logos everytime you go to use your phone? I don't, and I really don't care for the craptacular "nature" shots that come stock on many phones.

And to be honest I always keep my phone on vibrate, standard rings annoy me, and very few people seem to really share musical interests (especially mine), so I'd rather just save everyone some trouble.

As far as faceplates/faces/covers, why don't you badmouth people who mod thier computers? Enough said...

Hell has obviously frozen over, +5 on a post promoting RESTRICTIONS ontechnology!?

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[pair-a-noyd]

Amen brother, go tell it on the mountain!

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[_damnit_]

One of the few soapboxes I really stand on all the time is cell phones and fscking CDMA carriers' lock down on phones. I only use GSM phones. Period. If I get one free from the cell company, I unlock it ASAP. If it's disabled in some way, I either fix that or get rid of it. By staying with a GSM carrier, I leave my options open and I can buy whatever model I choose. I'm not limited by whatever selection Verizon or Sprint offers. I don't have to tell them which phone I'm using or pay them for ringtones.

Most people don't know that there is a difference or that Verizon continually screws them by disabling advertised features on most of their phones. I do my best to educate people, but it's only a few at a time. Don't use phones without SIM chips, or use a provider that screws you right up front.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[Avenger337]

The problem is, the only ringtones that the phone actually *comes* with are twenty times worse than that "stupid 50-cent ringtone." I just recently got a phone, and the 11 or so ringtones that came by default were SO AWFUL that you can't help but buy something better... I was able to find one of the 11 that I can BARELY put up with. It's quite ridiculous.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[Kierthos]

Right, because everyone who uses a Slashdot ID is so full of wisdom and enlightenment 100% of the time. Wait, just me? Not the rest of you? My bad.

I know what you mean about the ring-tone though. Took one of my co-workers about two hours of searching before he gave us and used some professional recording equipment to make his own phone-ring mp3.

Kierthos

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[veezhun]

This happens only in america. In most parts of asia(dont know about japan), people buy a phone first and then go to a service provider.. the phone is fully functional and no hacks are required coz you know what you are buying.. the money a service provider makes of Value Added Services(VAS) increases his margins buy a huge factor. These include Ringtones, Wallpapers etc etc.. you end up paying a lot more for the phone when you buy through a service provider in the long run rather than buying it upfront and then looking for the best service. its all about ARPU!!(Average Revenue Per User)

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[Mr2001]

One of the few soapboxes I really stand on all the time is cell phones and fscking CDMA carriers' lock down on phones. [...] If I get one free from the cell company, I unlock it ASAP.

Well, even though they do disable some features for dumb marketing reasons, you may be pleased to know that Verizon doesn't lock their phones. The security code has been the default 000000 on every phone I've gotten from them, whether I paid or not.

I'm not limited by whatever selection Verizon or Sprint offers. I don't have to tell them which phone I'm using or pay them for ringtones.

Verizon's network will allow you to activate phones that Verizon doesn't sell, and you can transfer all the ringtones you want for free via data cable (or for the price of a picture message via email).

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[rsynnott]

If you've got proper internet access, of course, you can just download the things. Hmm, now I think of it, I run a small website that allows people to upload images to have them put into a format that a phone is happy with. Then they can download the new image. I get an abnormally low number of US users. Maybe this is why.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[Syre]

"lock" in the context of GSM phones means "prevent from using on another carrier's network".

An "unlocked" phone will take a SIM card from any GSM carrier and will work on that carrier's network. a "locked" phone will only work with SIM cards from the carrier who provided the phone.

This is different from the security code you're referring to on the Verizon phones.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[bhtooefr]

I DO know that Verizon will unlock (read: allow the phone to work on a non-Verizon network) their phones.

Now, for some ugly Sprint shenanigans - they don't allow non-Sprint (read: Verizon-unlocked, or Alltel (which come unlocked, from what I've heard)) phones on their network. That said, I'm happy with my phone from Sprint (a Nokia 6225).

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[bhtooefr]

Well, I don't have the Vision (TCP/IP) package, so it costs $0.01 per kilobyte transferred... And it's hard to see how big things are in a little WAP browser...

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[rsynnott]

The model I use is the user uploads or chooses an image on a real computer, tells the system what phone they have (for resizing purposes and so on) and is then told what size the image is, and is given a URL to download it.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[Mr2001]

CDMA phones can also be locked to prevent them from being used on another carrier's network... it's just that Verizon doesn't do that. The 6-digit security code controls access to the programming menus (and over-the-air programming); it's different from the user lock code that just keeps the phone from being used by strangers.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[bhtooefr]

I'll just stick with IR, and the Nokia stuff - that way, I don't have to pay ANYTHING (except to get an IR dongle for this laptop - I have to use one of the Dells at my college's library to use IR for now).

However, that is a nice idea, your site...

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[rsynnott]

Yep, it's basically aimed at people with minimal technical knowledge. It hadn't occured to me that many in the US wouldn't be able to use it at all tho (and might be confused by it). Must put up a note about it...

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[ppz003]

and of course the best thing for someone who has an LG phone (or some sanyo or samsung phones) is this wonderful little app called BitPim. It will let you upload or download anything on the phone including the entire file system.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[wsloand]

They never said that they disabled it via cable. They require you to buy a cable or buy service. What Verizon disabled was the ability to move data with a transfer medium that you already may have like bluetooth or IR.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[khrtt]

There was a scene in one TV show in the early 90s when there is this grocery store in Beverly Hills, and there are some 5 or 6 girls shopping, and a cell phone goes off, and they all dive into their purses to check if its theirs. That was supposed to be funny. The joke is rather hard to get 15 years later - only rich people had cell phones, so they'd get confused if there were too many of them in one place and a cell phone went off. Ha-ha - funny.

Now my roommate's dog has the same phone as me, and so does one in 3 randomly-choosen people. It's the last years free phone, v180/t610/e105, whatever the fuck t-mobile was giving away around christmas time. If you don't change your ringer/faceplate/wallpaper, how the heck are you supposed to tell if it's yours?

And please, please, change your ringtone from the default "Nokia tune" or "T-mobile jingle". I you don't make sure you stay away from me when your phone goes off, 'cause I might just instinctively kick you in the face.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[MacGod]

Look, I agree with you points about a phone ringing like a phone. I also wish that it was possible to buy a phone with no wallpaper, no colour screen, no MP3 ringtons, etc, but great battery life and reception, and a small form factor.

But to assert that everyone should feel this way doesn't exactly espouse the freedom (as in speech) that Slashdot is all about. I should be able to get a back-to-basics phone, but I should also be able to get a colour-MP3-wallpaper-video-phone if I wish. That's what consumer choice is all about.

By all means, share your opinions with us. But don't be so surprised if not everyone agrees with you.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[meringuoid]

Even moreso if you paid $2.99 for that 10 second song clip on your phone.

I didn't do anything like that. Silly prices for ringtones, those. I used GPRS to connect to a Dragonball Z fansite and downloaded MIDI files of the various theme tunes. Now when my phone rings I'm torn between answering it and singing 'We Gotta Power'...

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[agraupe]

No, I wish I was able to get such a featureless phone. My phone only supports what is known as "polyphonic" (coloquially: loud and stupid sounding) ringtones. These can be composed from any sound, but not on the phone. These can only be downloaded at their exorbitant data rates, with their browser that I can't be bothered to figure out. Also, the color screen seems to be specifically engineered so that it's either obtrusively bright (indoors) or impossible to read in any kind of sunlight.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[DeadChobi]

I'm sorry to hear that. I'll try to avoid new phones then.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[thereisnoneed]

Exactly, the last feature you see listed on a phone is call quality. In my mind a cell phone should be for voice communication not a half ass mp3 player and camera.

Re:OMGWTFBBQ

[unitron]

" I'll try to avoid new phones then."

Unfortunately, if your present phone doesn't support GPS location for 911 purposes you'd better hope nothing ever goes wrong with it because you won't be able to get it fixed, you'll be forced to "upgrade" or go phoneless, at least here in the U.S.

Ridiculous!

[Linus Torvaalds]

Selling a device that is intentionally crippled is just plain ridiculous.

Yes it is. The only thing I can think of that is more ridiculous is buying it.

Seriously. If it's that big a deal, then don't buy the damn thing. There are other phones on the market you know. Vote with your dollars.

Re:Ridiculous!

[Lord Marlborough]

Really, the selling of it isn't ridiculous economically. They can make extra money charging premium prices for something that is really no more valuable than the entry model. It is cheaper to hobble a product and sell it at the "entry-level" cost while selling the unweakened version at more than it really deserves. And indeed, buying it may stick in ones craw, but sometimes one doesn't have much of a choice. In this case, luckily, you do.

Re:Ridiculous!

[Apreche]

Scary thing, no there aren't. Very few phones are completely wide open and allow you full access to all features. Even things like the Treo 650 have crippled Bluetooth.

The problem here is that a cellular/smart phone becomes more and more a vital piece of technology. And there are almost no choices that suit the geek who isn't loaded with cash. Vote with your dollars. Get the cheapest cheapest shit plan that they barely proft off of. Then hack the phone to bits. Maybe one day they'll realize that they're losing money by ignoring an important market segment.

Re:Ridiculous!

[Rew190]

The problem is that Verizon advertises the phone as having bluetooth capabilities, but declines to remark that the functionality is, indeed, crippled. Thus, the folks who bought this phone expecting it to deliver on that are a bit miffed that Verizon has omitted basic file functionality, yet continues to market the bluetooth aspect of the phone.

Re:Ridiculous!

[jdreed1024]

Vote with your dollars.

Seriously. If you buy it, and then hack it, Verizon will (at best) think it's ok to sell crippled phones or (at worst) use the DMCA to send your "cyber-terrorist" ass to Guantanamo.

If instead you go to a Verizon store, return your phone, cancel your service, and say "Sorry, I'm switching to {Cingular|Sprint|T-Mobile|any other provider that doesn't cripple phones} because I feel consumers shouldn't get screwed" then maybe, just maybe they'll get the message. It's bad enough that phones are vendor-locked so you can't use whatever provider you want - there's no need to send a message to the CEOs that it's ok to screw over consumers to increase profits.

Re:Ridiculous!

[log0n]

Yes.

Yes yes yes.

I've got the Verizon Motorola V710. It's advertised as Mp3 playback.. mp3 ringtones.. Bluetooth for interaction and connectivity.. etc.

The Bluetooth is crippled so much that I hope that some Bluetooth org somewhere rescinds their right to use the trademark (nowhere did it mention in writing it's lack of functionality with comps, with other bluetooth devices, etc). After sending the phone in for repair (battery charging problems) the mp3 ringtone feature was disabled. When I first bought it it originally worked as expected - they performed a software update that removed the functionality. Additionally with the update, you can't play Mp3 files greater than 64kbits (so no real way of using it as a standalone mp3 player - you used to be able to play anything up to 320kbits, etc).

Fuck Verizon. The whole reason I bought the phone (and it was the best and MOST expensive phone out there for a while) was because it direct methods of interfacing with a computer without doing anything shady or sneaky. And it had awesome features. Corporate greed, more money, fuck em.

(Yeah, I'm pissed over it.)

Re:Ridiculous!

[log0n]

Oh and the 1megapixel cam on the v710 is awful too. Just a heads up to potential buyers. The update (mentioned above) made the quality slightly better (very digital noisy images - even in broad daylight). Oh and you can't transfer pictures from phone to the memory card (or vice versa) after the update. They intentionally locked you into their Pix transfering service (the whole point of the phone is that it comes with a memory card you can use to bypass all of this crap).

Sorry for the rant.. I'm just so frustrated with this thing.. I'm glad to see people are starting to hack apart and play dirty using the same methods Verizon does.

Re:Ridiculous!

[Baricom]

maybe, just maybe they'll get the message.

Yep. Then they'll bill you the [roughly] $200 early cancellation fee you signed off on.

Re:Ridiculous!

[gkuz]

It's bad enough that phones are vendor-locked so you can't use whatever provider you want

Gee, I've been with T-Mobile since Omnipoint days, had like 4-5 phones in that time -- some bought from them, some bought via eBay -- and every single time I've asked nicely to have them remove vendor-lock, I've had no problem whatsoever. Used the phones with all sorts of pre-pay SIMs all over Europe. I can honestly say "vendor lock? what's that?"

Maybe you should just avoid VZW.

Re:Ridiculous!

[pauljlucas]

Yep. Then they'll bill you the [roughly] $200 early cancellation fee you signed off on.

Verizon has a 30-day no-questions-asked return policy.

Re:Ridiculous!

[Zizkus]

Funny, I bought that exact same phone from verizon after looking at the specs on the motorola web site,
I returned it after a couple of weeks and bitched enough they gave me full credit, blue tooth obex was disabled so I couldn't sync contacts, move files, or any of the other neet stuff I had thought it would do.
Funny!, my Verizon contract is up and they have lost me as a customer, they are ripoffs, outragious rates for overages, no roll over , disabled phones, OH and they also removed the Java and replaced it with BREW, so I couldn't even install an app that wasn't digitally signed by them for that specific cell phone, what a dissapointment.
Z

Re:Ridiculous!

[ShawnDoc]

I don't know of any cellular provider in the U.S. that doesn't cripple their phones, so who would I switch to?

Re:Ridiculous!

[xenolon]

Amen to that. I had the v710 as well.

I'm a mac user, and use Address Book, iCal, and iSync. I'm locked into verizon because my whole family is on it, and everyone likes the free airtime for in-network calling.

So I think: "Bluetooth! finally! I can sync my contacts and appointments via bluetooth." I figure, i'll write a little applescript that launches iSync whenever my phone connects. I'll always have all my information as current as possible. how cool.
WRONG.You can't even sync your contacts and events with the phone via bluetooth. You have to use a usb cable. A USB CABLE. It's 2005, when I was a kid I though by now I was supposed to have a flying car and get my meals in pill form. I can't even transfer a little bit of data wirelessly? give me a break.

To be honest, it's partially my fault, it says right on apple's iSync page that the phone only syncs via USB. Should have gone there first. But there is a slew of other phones that can update with bluetooth, so it's not the software.
Luckily, i was able to return the phone and get one that was equally a piece of junk, but at least it was a free piece of junk.

I realize i'm mostly just venting here, and it feels good. I hope this does become an issue, i hope the general verizon customer realizes how much they're being screwed over. I hope Verizon's attempt to stifle technology backfires big-time. I should probably do more than hope. I should leave verizon. I should probably hack the thing. I should hack the thing, find a verizon exec, and tell him into which orifice he can accept my new creation, then take a picture with the phone, and transfer it across the hacked bluetooth to my laptop, and show him what an asshole he is. </venting>

(Yeah, I'm pissed over it.)
P.S. I promise never again to post such a useless addition to a topic.

Re:Ridiculous!

[fermion]

I would tend to agree. It is pretty silly to sign a contract with a company worth 1-2K for services and equipment, and then not have the equipment match published specs.

The problem is that consumers buy these expensive phones, that don't really do what they are supposed to. This provides an incentive for the manufacturers to produce these expensive phones which are likely not to be fully utilized.

The best thing to do is make people aware of these problems, and encourag them to return the units. The first thing i did whn I got my phone was to make sure I had minimal connection through USB and bluetooth without additional softwar. I did so I kept the phone. I would have returned it if i need another $50 of software and additional services.

Verizon was once the best cell service in the states, but, even with phone number portability, I did not switch to them because they are playing at least as many shennanigans as the other companies, and the coverage is not a dominant as it used to be.

Re:Ridiculous!

[Algan]

I've got the same phone; I bought it while being fully aware of the crap that Verizon pulls. Luckily I'm not really affected by the limitations, I just use BT for handsfree operation and I'm not into crappy digital pictures (got a real camera for that). They do however have a decent network and 90% of my friends are on Verizon, so switching wasn't really an option for me.

Anyway, there is a workaround to the mp3 ringtone block. Apparently you can convert the mp3 to 32kbps, mono and email it to @vzwpix.net. When you get the message, save it as a ringtone. Voila, free (almost) mp3 ringtone. Some people find it helps if you rename it to .mid. I haven't tried it personally (just got a couple of tunes from a friend who did it - you can msg them from phone to phone). YMMV, use it at your own risk, blah blah all disclaimers apply... but let me know if it works for you :)

Re:Ridiculous!

[plabtfall]

The cheapest Verizon phone: $70

The cheapest Verizon plan: $40 a month

Never having to worry about my cell phone, while getting to watch all you gullible bozos complain about not being able to change your ringtone: priceless

Re:Ridiculous!

[squiggleslash]

Any GSM operator, eg T-Mobile, Cingular, etc.

You can then get your phone independently, buying an unlocked, uncrippled, fresh from the factory, full-price, phone, and slip the SIM in it to connect it to your chosen network.

One day, perhaps, the US "CDMA" (IS-95) operators (Verizon, Sprint PCS, etc) will offer similar functionality (supposedly, some versions of IS95 used outside of the US already support SIM cards), but until then there's still an adequate choice of GSM operators for you to be unlikely to be without some kind of reasonable coverage in your area.

Re:Ridiculous!

[Algan]

Correction: email it to @vzwpix.com and definitely change extension to .mid. I tried it and it works for me...

Re:Ridiculous!

[andersbergh]

lol, you made me laugh IRL there

Re:Ridiculous!

[uncqual]

IIRC, they keep the activation charge though.

Re:Ridiculous!

[radish]

Maybe you need to switch networks. My Cingular handsets have all been cripple-free. My current Nokia 6230 allows me to upload ringtones, graphincs, games and other java apps via bluetooth. I can't get rid of the Cingular logo but that's about it.

Re:Ridiculous!

[elronxenu]

The problem is that the advertising promotes what the device can do and totally fails to mention what the device cannot do, i.e. how it's crippled.

Re:Ridiculous!

[mrchaotica]

Sounds to me like they broke your phone. I recommend sending it in for repair (at their expense*) over and over and over until they give you the features they owe you back.

*if they want you to pay for it, yell at them until they agree to take it!

Re:Ridiculous!

[mrchaotica]

Fuck that! If your phone is crippled then it's broken and Verison is the one who failed to uphold the terms of the contract! Between the credit card company and the court system, there's no way in hell I'd let them keep my money!

Re:Ridiculous!

[mrchaotica]

everyone likes the free airtime for in-network calling.

Cingular (and probably every other provider) has that too.

Re:Ridiculous!

[kevcol]

There is substantial information on hacking the v710 to unlock the features that are disabled. Did you know about those? I've been considering that phone only because I want a Bluetooth earpiece and have VZW. I don't care about the other features, but I would try the hack if I end up getting the phone.

Re:Ridiculous!

[stoborrobots]

I can't get rid of the Cingular logo but that's about it.

That could be a SIM card feature, not a phone one...

I noticed that my T-Mobile Nokia 3390 displays a T-Mobile logo which appears unremovable, but dropping my Australian SIM card into it results in the default Nokia logo... (I picked up a cheapie prepaid phone when I was in the States, and had to unlock it to allow use of other SIM cards, but the point stands...)

Anyway, if your handset is not network locked (and by definition, Nokia's aren't - if they complain, they only need a standard code to unlock them) try dropping in a friend's SIM from another provider and see if the logo goes away...

Re:Ridiculous!

[AaronBrethorst]

Go buy an Audiovox SMT 5600 from Cingular (nee HTC Typhoon). Yeah, it's SIM-locked to Cingular. But you can do whatever else you want to with this phone, from writing C++, VB, or C# apps, to slapping whatever ringtones you want on it. The only phone that will replace this thing for me will a device running the new version of Smartphone. I'm totally hooked (and clearly biased, so take that for WIW ;-) )

Re:Ridiculous!

[spectrum-]

Buy your phone seperate to any network, directly from the phone manufacturer or phone retail outlet that will sell you a phone unbiased towards any network.

These phones are crippled because they probably should be more expensive but the handset's cost has been subsidised by the network operator to make them more affordable and more attractive to consumers.

So in some respects its fair game - if they provide a subsidy towards the phone's cost that they will need to reclaim that expendature back via call/data charges through their network.

Re:Ridiculous!

[xenolon]

Right, they do. The problem is that you have to get two dozen other people to switch as well (translation: logistical nightmare), so you're all still in the same network, on the same service. If it's just me switching, then I lose the benefit of all that free airtime, and so do the people calling me.

Re:Ridiculous!

[phishst1k]

I bought this phone the day it came out, I went to 3 different stores to try and find one.

I get it home and I'm making my OWN ringtones from mp3's I either made myself, or ripped off CD's I own and I was a happy camper. The bluetooth thing defininatly pissed me off, but I had a cable and a 128mb Transflash card.

Then my phone breaks, and I need a new one from verizon.

Those bastards put a new flash on the phone so you can't "copy" or "move" MP3 or MID files from the transflash to the phone. So basicly, no more custom ringtones.

Second, they made it so there is a limit to the amount of video it can take, it used to be with the 128mb card I could take 60 minutes of video if I wanted. Now it's cut to SHORT, MEDIUM, MAXIMUM where maximum is about 15 seconds.

I was SOO furious at verizon for being such a greedy bastard, I understand they want people to pay for ringtones and stuff, but I payed a premium for that phone and I ALREADY HAD THE FUNCTION and it was taken away 5 months later. That is what pisses me off most.

Complaining did nothing of coures :(

Re:Ridiculous!

[Kiryat Malachi]

If you re-flex your handset, the Cingular logo will disappear.

Other than that logo/branding issue, though, Cingular's been very good with their software about keeping all the useful features enabled. So good I might not even re-flex the next handset I get.

Re:Ridiculous!

[ThisNukes4u]

Works when you rename to .mid, but just to claify, the email address is phonenumber@vzwpix.net

Re:Ridiculous!

[Darby]

I just recently needed a new phone, and I did a lot of research into it which is a major reason I didn't get that phone. I was previously on Verizon with just the free crappy Kyocera that they were giving away when I signed up and I wasn't too happy with their service. My phone broke a few times in the first month, and going into the store I noticed that there was always a line of at least 5 people waiting for the one customer support person they had on duty while 4 salespeople were standing around doing jack.

That's a sure sign of a poorly run business (from the customer's perspective).

So as I was researching phones, I found out that Verizon really does go out of their way to break their phones, but they try to avoid taking responsibility for their actions by having Motorola (or whoever) advertise the full capabilities of the phone while crippling those features at the request of verizon.

I ended up going with a Motorola A630 from TMobile. It's pretty cool. My major complaint is that the speaker is crappy. There is an SSH client available for it, but you need to hack your Java socket library to access the real internet. I haven't done this yet, but I plan to as soon as I finish my MythTV box (just need to hook it back into the cable box so it can change channels Has anybody done this with a Motorola 2524 box on Comcast in Chicago, or do I need to go the IR Blaster route?) and get CARP set up on my firewalls.

My main advice for phone shoppers is this:

Do not buy a BREW phone, make sure it runs real Java. BREW is designed to keep you from running what you want to on your own phone unless you pay again and again.

Do not use Verizon, unless you're getting the barest bones phone available and only want to use it to make phone calls. Otherwise you will apy through the nose.

Re:Ridiculous!

[DarkVader]

So don't pay it. And send them a letter explaining exactly why you're not going to pay it, including the fact that they aren't providing advertised services.

If they charge it to your credit card, do a chargeback - the credit card company will take it back from them.

Hacking the RAZR V3?

[Dominatus]

Anyone know of any attempts to access the contents of a RAZR V3 phone on Linux?

Re:Hacking the RAZR V3?

[puto]

Motorola Tools runs on windows. But as an employee of the Wirless provider that introduced the razor, I can say probably no. And the V3, while kinda neat looking, is mostly hype, does not do edge, and breaks if you look it. V551 is same phone, does edge, and cost less, and is pretty hardier.

Puto

Re:Hacking the RAZR V3?

[Dominatus]

Not very much since I could just bring it over to my windows computer and access it. But it'd be nice to do it from my laptop as well. How would you do it?

Re:Hacking the RAZR V3?

[fermion]

Much of the protocols seem standard. I can acess my pictures and ringtones, for download and upload, with the bluetooth client in Mac OS 10.3. I can also get to the data through USB. The phone uses a standard mini USB cable. One reason I got the phone was I could do everything I needed to do without buying the additional software.

So, perhaps if Linux has the usb tools, it would be a simple matter of hooking up the phone and starting a session. Perhaps not GUI, but mounted from the command line.

On another topic, can one download software (jad) from the Bluetooth client?

Re:Hacking the RAZR V3?

[ElGuapoGolf]

Well, since it has bluetooth, in theory you should be able to sync your addressbook and calendar via BT.

In theory.

In practice, I find that linux is really lacking in this area. The *best* application I can seem to find is KMobileTools, but it won't work via BT unless I jump through some hoops, and then I have to do that every time I want to do anything on the phone.

If anyone has any alternatives, and yes I know about gscmxx, please me know.

Re:Hacking the RAZR V3?

[rsynnott]

If it's bluetooth, then it should hopefully be standard enough.Just install the bluez stack.

Or

[UserChrisCanter4]

Of course, the only natural thing to do in a situation like this is to hack it."

[Obvious] Or, you know, not buy it. [/obvious]

Re:Or

[ThisIsFred]

You can't unbuy your contract when you're already signed. Well, you can, but you'll get screwed twice: Once by the false advertising, and again by early termination fees. I think that's part of the point here. The fellow above found that the product didn't work as advertised, and was further crippled by an update when he had it repaired for an entirely unrelated reason.

Re:Or

[UserChrisCanter4]

I don't know. His blog talks about buying this v265 to replace "an old junker cellphone." The fact that his cell is an old junker implies to me that he probably wasn't in contract. It may just be poor writing on his part, but none of his post seems to imply that he discovered this crippling after the fact.

With number portability now in effect (and most of the bugs worked out by now), I don't see any reason why he'd resign himself to a crippled piece of garbage if he didn't have to.

Re:Or

[mrchaotica]

If the phone doesn't have the features that were advertised then it's defective and it's Verizon's fault. Therefore, Verizon is the one who broke the contract -- at least, a reasonable person would think that way. Hopefully the court would too...

Been Done Before

[Anonymous Coward]

Check out Bitpim on sourceforge, it contains everything you could possibly need to hack your verison cell phone...
http://bitpim.sourceforge.net/

verizon TOS

[thegoogler]

he says nothing about the verizon TOS, and doesn't even warn that you could get your service cut off if they found out you did this.

that would seem like something that should have been mentioned...

Re:verizon TOS

[tomhudson]

he says nothing about the verizon TOS, and doesn't even warn that you could get your service cut off if they found out you did this.

that would seem like something that should have been mentioned...

Bullshit - they *sold* him the phone. They didn't license it to him, they *sold* it. You buy the phone, and license the service. Also, they failed to mention that they had crippled it before he bought it. Seems to me that cell phone companies selling crippled phones without full disclosure merits an investigation by the local Attorney General and/or Consumer Protection office for fraud.

Re:verizon TOS

[minus_273]

actually most people get the phone with the service plan and not independently. That is why in the US we get phones for free or for next to nothing and outside they have to actually pay. In all liklihood, he does not own the phone until the completion of his contract. Haven't you noticed that if you sign up for a longer contract, you will get the phone for less.

Re:verizon TOS

[iminplaya]

Also, they failed to mention that they had crippled it before he bought it.

Oh, I tend to believe that the phone functioned the way it was advertised to him.

They didn't license it to him, they *sold* it.

I have yet to buy a new phone. Really! I have no idea of the terms that the phone is sold under. Are you sure it isn't licensed? Like the software you buy? Not that it's valid or anything. I'm just wondering. There might be a thingy that says the phone is licensed not sold. Could be interesting. The whole cel phone business is so corrupt. From the area code thing to the communications act that banned full band recievers. We definitely screwed up on this one...right from the beginnning. Paying to receive calls...What's up with THAT??? Yep...we definitely got fished in.

Re:verizon TOS

[j-turkey]

Also, they failed to mention that they had crippled it before he bought it.

I'll say right off that I'm totally conflicted by this. The phone-crippling stuff is bullshit. I hope that Verizon gets theirs, bigtime. That being said...there are two sides to this, and your argument has some holes.

I'm sure that he knew that his phone was crippled before he bought it. Who didn't know that Verizon crippled their equipment? It's pretty widespread knowledge, and there is a class-action lawsuit pending against VZW. Further, I believe that employees at Verizon stores are required to inform you of the 15-day trial period...if not, it's in writing. Did he have his phone for 15 days before he bothered to figure out that it didn't do what he wanted? I find it difficult to believe that he was ignorant, didn't read his license agreement, wasn't informed about the 15-day trial period, and didn't find out that his phone didn't do what he wanted until after that 15-day trial period. With the above being said, he doesn't have a right to diddly squat in this case. It's Verizon's network, and Verizon can do what they want with it. Since there is plenty of competition, he can take his business elsewhere.

Doesn't this whole thing stink of someone feeling like they deserve something from a company when they actually don't? Isn't the better thing for him to do is to take his business to a different provider?

Re:verizon TOS

[Mr2001]

Bullshit - they *sold* him the phone. They didn't license it to him, they *sold* it. You buy the phone, and license the service.

Yes... but when he signed the contract to get that service, he may have agreed not to modify his phone.

Also, FCC regulations may prohibit him from modifying it - the phone has to be certified not to transmit at unacceptable power levels or on the wrong frequencies, and those functions are controlled by software. Even a minor firmware change like this may require recertification, AFAIK.

Re:verizon TOS

[nxtw]

Yes... but when he signed the contract to get that service, he may have agreed not to modify his phone.

He didn't.

Also, FCC regulations may prohibit him from modifying it

Doubt it.

the phone has to be certified not to transmit at unacceptable power levels or on the wrong frequencies, and those functions are controlled by software

They're controlled by software on WiFi devices too. It's not like the device gets recertified every time Linksys releases a new firmware on their routers; (they could very easily modify their firmware to violate FCC regulations). The software for many, many devices is updated all the time. Modifications to that software could violate FCC rules, but that doesn't mean that those devices and software get recertified every single time.

Even a minor firmware change like this may require recertification, AFAIK.

Well... you don't.

Re:verizon TOS

[nxtw]

he says nothing about the verizon TOS, and doesn't even warn that you could get your service cut off if they found out you did this.

He doesn't warn you about this becuase such a stipulation does not exist in the Verizon "TOS".

that would seem like something that should have been mentioned...

I invite you to show me which lines of Verizon's customer agreement someone would have to be concerned about?

Re:verizon TOS

[DigiShaman]

I totally agree. But according to the DMCA....

ahh fuck it! Slashdot, where is your official DMCA logo for this article? You need one for obvious shit like this. CmdrTaco? Are you even reading this?

Re:verizon TOS

[nxtw]

In all liklihood, he does not own the phone until the completion of his contract.

No, you own the phone the moment you pay for it.

Haven't you noticed that if you sign up for a longer contract, you will get the phone for less.

But you pay them if you cancel the contract, so no matter what, they don't lose money.

Re:verizon TOS

[nxtw]

Also, they failed to mention that they had crippled it before he bought it.

Why do they have to? It's not like they are advertising that the phone can do things it can't. They are allowed to customize the software they place on the phone, and they do. If their modified software disables or disallows functionality, they haven't done anything wrong as long as they aren't lying about the phone's capabilities.

Seems to me that cell phone companies selling crippled phones without full disclosure merits an investigation by the local Attorney General and/or Consumer Protection office for fraud.

What fraud have they committed? I don't see where they ever advertised or said the phone could do anything it couldn't. It does what it was described and sold to do. The phone may be capable of doing other things, but they don't have to let it.

Re:verizon TOS

[aminorex]

It is reasonable to object to a condition where one's choice is limited to deciding who gets to screw you, since it is an inherently objectionable condition. Whether that condition obtains is debatable.

It's also reasonable, althought less patently so, to object to being deceived into purchasing a product or service by false advertising. This case is more clear.

But in the final analysis, I don't see anyone saying they deserve anything except what they get by their own work: A phone hacked so that it is no longer arbitrarily crippled to support someone's presumption of entitlement to profit from a broken business model. What I do see, is that everyone holds Verizon in contempt for (1) deceptive and (2) foolhardy business practices.

Re:verizon TOS

[mrchaotica]

Unless Verizon itself tells you, you do NOT know. Period. Otherwise, they should (first of all) not be allowed to cut off your service for hacking your phone, and (second) should be required to give you a full (including all fees) refund if you return it and cancel your service, since it's a defective phone.

Re:verizon TOS

[Mr2001]

He didn't [agree not to modify the phone].

No? Read this part of the Verizon customer agreement you linked to:

Our Rights To Limit Or End Service Or This Agreement
You agree not to resell our service to someone else without our prior written permission. You also agree your wireless phone won't be used for any other purpose that isn't allowed by this agreement or that's illegal. WE CAN, WITHOUT NOTICE, LIMIT, SUSPEND, OR END YOUR SERVICE OR ANY AGREEMENT WITH YOU FOR THIS OR ANY OTHER GOOD CAUSE, including, but not limited to: [...] (i) modifying your wireless phone from its manufacturer's specifications

That could easily be applied to installing modified firmware, don't you think?

They're controlled by software on WiFi devices too. It's not like the device gets recertified every time Linksys releases a new firmware on their routers; (they could very easily modify their firmware to violate FCC regulations).

You're right, but WiFi operates in a different frequency range, one that's used by various other consumer devices (like cordless phones) and I suspect less tightly regulated than the 800 and 1900 MHz bands reserved for cell phones. I don't know the specific details of the regulation, but it doesn't sound like you do either.

Re:verizon TOS

[DavidD_CA]

I think the issue here is that *your* definition of "cripped" is Verizon's lawyers' definition of "feature".

I imagine they could easily demonstrate that these features are the reason why 99% of their customers bought the phone in the first place.

Re:verizon TOS

[ozzmosis]

you can say the same thing about xbox & xbox live. But that doesn't stop Microsoft from cutting peoples xbox live off.

Re:verizon TOS

[CmdrGravy]

"modifying your wireless phone from its manufacturer's specifications."

The point is though that the phone was manufactured with full capabilities and Verizon have restricted your access to them. By regaining access to the phones full capabilities you aren't modifying from it's factory specs you are just using the phone as it was shipped from the factory.

Re:verizon TOS

[Mr2001]

Verizon doesn't modify the firmware. The phone manufacturer makes separate firmware versions according to each carrier's requirements.

Re:verizon TOS

[tomhudson]

The phone is crippled by the RESELLER, not the manufacturer. It would be akin to buying a hybrid car, then finding out that the reseller has disabled its ability to run as a hybrid - it runs on gas only - and they own the only gas station that has a nozzle that fits your modified gas tank.

Re:verizon TOS

[nxtw]

That could easily be applied to installing modified firmware, don't you think?

No. The original manufacturer specifications cover a broad range of features, many of which are disabled by Verizon. By uploading Motorola's firmware (which isn't really modified -- it's the flex/SEEM), you're only uploading software copyrighted and written by Motorola. By modifying the seem (compare to modifying the registry), you still haven't modified the device from its manfacturer specifications.

and I suspect less tightly regulated than the 800 and 1900 MHz bands reserved for cell phones

suspect? should be pretty obvious.

Anyway, Motorola does not recertify every compatible phone with every firmware they release to its service centers and customers. I was trying to make an example that would be easy to understand, but clearly you felt the need to argue anyway.

Re:verizon TOS

[tomhudson]

They are not the manufacturers of the phone. So what they're selling isnt a v265 - its a heavily crippled device that USED to be a v265. The v265 has specific features - look on the anufacturers site or in the manual that comes with it.

Look at it like this - I offer to sell you a Toyota Prius hybrid. You figure "great - save a lot of money". Then, after you've bought it, you find out that I've removed everything that allows it to function as a hybrid - it now runs on gasoline only. And I own a lot of the gas stations in town. And I've modified the fill-up spout so that you can't get a fill-up from a competing gas station

So, no fraud? Come on - they sold something without disclosing how it differed from a standard v265.

Re:verizon TOS

[tomhudson]

Lets look at an analogous situation - you buy an xbox from your local retailer, who has modified it so that it can only play games bought from them, and only connect to xbox live through them.

The product is crippled. You've been ripped off.

Re:verizon TOS

[tomhudson]

I think the issue here is that *your* definition of "cripped" is Verizon's lawyers' definition of "feature".

They would lose. It would be the same as if I sold you a computer that comes standard with a 250-gig hard drive, but first broke the hard drive so you could only run off a cd-rom. Its crippled , but according to your theory, I can "feature" it by saying that this "feature" will prevent any viruses from surviving between boots.

Oh, and add to that, that the cd/dvd can only run with my custom boot disks, and that if you want to run any other software, you have to buy it from me since you can't just run it off a standard cd/dvd disk.

Re:verizon TOS

[Mr2001]

By modifying the seem (compare to modifying the registry), you still haven't modified the device from its manfacturer specifications.

I guess we'll just have to wait for Verizon to cancel some litigious hacker's service to see exactly what the courts will consider "manufacturer's specifications".

Re:verizon TOS

[j-turkey]

Unless Verizon itself tells you, you do NOT know. Period. Otherwise, they should (first of all) not be allowed to cut off your service for hacking your phone, and (second) should be required to give you a full (including all fees) refund if you return it and cancel your service, since it's a defective phone.

You do not know, period? What is that supposed to mean? Verizon didn't have to tell me anything, and I know what's up with their service. If someone is an asshole, are they required to tell you before shaking your hand? It sounds like you feel like you deserve something extra.

/me pats you on the head

Before you buy stuff, do your homework. Not everybody is a victim all of the time. If you don't like Verizon, don't buy their services. Should VZW tell its customers that it disables certain advertised features. Sure. Does that mean that nobody was able to find out? A simple Google search for 'Verizon Bluetooth' turned up a whole lot. That tells me that claims of ignorance were mostly bogus, and most of the customers who complain or hack want to be able to set their own terms.

You're not doing anything to convince me. I understand both sides of the argument. However, I don't agree with your take.

Re:verizon TOS

[minus_273]

No, you own the phone the moment you pay for it.
that is what i mean, you dont actually pay for it. The phone is part of the contract. With many plans that i've had, if you cancel the plan in the middle, they want the phone back ( they tell you that when you get the phone)

Re:verizon TOS

[mrchaotica]

I was speaking in the context of contract law. If Verizon doesn't have the fact that the phone is crippled explicitly written into the contract, and the phone is indeed crippled, then they should be in breach of contract. Get it now?

Re:verizon TOS

[nxtw]

They are not the manufacturers of the phone. So what they're selling isnt a v265 - its a heavily crippled device that USED to be a v265. The v265 has specific features - look on the anufacturers site or in the manual that comes with it.

They are indeed selling a v265. It's not like they magically removed the parts that make it a v265. The manufacturer's site almost always says "Carrier dependent" or something to that effect for features that carriers may wish to not offer/disable: see Motorola's V265 product page.

Look at it like this - I offer to sell you a Toyota Prius hybrid. You figure "great - save a lot of money". Then, after you've bought it, you find out that I've removed everything that allows it to function as a hybrid - it now runs on gasoline only. And I own a lot of the gas stations in town. And I've modified the fill-up spout so that you can't get a fill-up from a competing gas station

That's a really, really bad analogy. Cars are sold strictly as a product; after buying a car, you can take it wherever you want to get gas and get maintenance, and you drive it on public roads, not roads owned by the dealer. When you buy a cellphone, you're buying a phone sold by a carrier or their dealers for use on that carrier's network with their services. If I buy a Honda from the nearest Honda dealer, they don't expect me to drive it on *their* roads. So, your analogy does not fit.

So, no fraud? Come on - they sold something without disclosing how it differed from a standard v265.

I see no description of a "standard" V265 anywhere that states that the V265 has these features that Verizon has disabled.

Please stop making things up.

Re:verizon TOS

[nxtw]

that is what i mean, you dont actually pay for it. The phone is part of the contract. With many plans that i've had, if you cancel the plan in the middle, they want the phone back ( they tell you that when you get the phone)

What plans are you talking about? What you are saying is simply not true (on Verizon, Cingular, AT&T, Alltel, Nextel, and T-Mobile, and probably almost every other carrier in America.) The reduced price on the phone is in exchange for signing the contract, but no matter what, the phone is yours. You may choose to return within the contract-designated trial period, but after that period, the phone is yours and they don't want it back.

The phone is yours; otherwise, it would not be a sale and they would have little justification for charging you an early contract termination fee.

If someone wanted a phone back in the past, you didn't have to give it to them.

Re:verizon TOS

[nxtw]

No. On Motorola phones, the same firmware versions are used on every phone of the same model using the same language. The SEEM and filesystem on the phone is customized in what's known as a flex. This is what limits what the firmware can and can't do, what stores carrier specific settings/limits, and what stores the files that come on the phone by default (any games, ringtones, pictures, etc.) The flex is customized according to the carrier's needs. Regardless if this is done by the carrier or Motorola, the firmware on (say) a Cingular and T-Mobile V600 could be the exact same, while the SEEM & default filesystem differ.

Please note that any two given phones of the same model may have different revisions of the firmware, e.g. newer versions with bugfixes.

Re:verizon TOS

[nytes]

I think I'd be inclined to back nxtw's opinion in this discussion, for one simple reason:

I just signed up for Verizon (my first cell - I'm a late adopter) we got the free phones, etc. But we paid sales tax on the retail value of the phones. That was a separate receipt from the account contract.

As far as I can see, charging sales tax means that a sale has been made. (There'd be no sales tax on it if they weren't transferring ownership to you.)

Re:verizon TOS

[tomhudson]

Your 2nd-to-last line proves my point and contradicts the rest of your post:

I see no description of a "standard" V265 anywhere that states that the V265 has these features that Verizon has disabled.

In other words, all V265s come with this capability (sounds like a standard to me if they can all do it) - just that, to quote you "these features that Verizon has disabled."

Verizon couldn't / wouldn't need to disable them if they weren't available, now could they ...

Re:verizon TOS

[nxtw]

I don't see how you can come to that conclusion.

You cannot assume that functionality is "standard" simply because the device is capable of doing something. Nowhere am I ever lead to believe that a V265 will have the functionality Verizon disables, on Motorola's site or anywhere. There is no expectation that a V265 will perform these disabled functions.

Re:verizon TOS

[minus_273]

i'm using cingualr in the north east. Granted my story is from 2001...

T-Mobile's the last frontier

[yog]

I switched from Verizon to T-Mobile and have been very happy with them except for lack of coverage in some places. I can dial up my favorite ISP with my bluetooth phone for no extra fee, and did I mention I got a bluetooth phone? Verizon Wireless appears to have only heard of bluetooth about 3 months ago, and they seem to have only a brushing acquaintance with that European phone maker, Nokia.

Unfortunately, T-mobile may be history pretty soon, and that likely means more consolidation and less competition in the U.S. mobile phone market.

What's the next best option? Cingular or Sprint? I hear terrible things about Sprint's service, and Cingular just merged with AT&T Wireless, which had a horrendous reputation for customer service.

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[AstroJetson]

I have Sprint and while their service is pretty bad, I can tell you that their coverage is the worst I know of. If you're in a major city or along an interstate you're usually ok but you don't have to venture far into the hinterland to drop off the net. I work in a pretty reasonably-sized city (Colorado Springs) on top of a mesa and I can barely get any signal. I'm well within their coverage map by their own admission. Yet no signal. The phone remains in analog roam mode most of the time when it has any signal at all, with predictable results on battery life. I've complained to them twice about it and they consult their maps and tell me that the signal I'm getting is just fine. WTF?

I recommend avoiding Sprint unless you're never more than a couple of miles from a big city. Sorry to hear that T-Mobile is going tango uniform...I was actually thinking about switching over to them.

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[kcbernfeld]

Cingular usually has decent coverage, and they have great deals on phones most of the time. The only major drawback is that the only way to really save money with them is to be a part of bellsouth. The more you buy from them, the more you save. But Cingular alone is fairly cheap, reliable, and their customer service isn't bad. They have a decent selection of phones, most of which have bluetooth if I am not mistaken. Most of their stuff isn't crippled too badly.

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[garcia]

I switched from Verizon to T-Mobile and have been very happy with them except for lack of coverage in some places.

I have T-mobile solely for the Sidekick/hiptop. When you say "some places" you are exaggerating or are not leaving your area.

Most of Western/Central WI is void of data service even along I-94 (a major highway). You can sometimes roam on AT&T Wireless (that's what it's reporting itself as -- not Cingular) or someother tiny/noname carrier but other than that you might not even have phone service!

If you aren't within sight distance of a major Interstate/highway or metro area you're pretty much SOL.

Yes, generally I have GPRS where *I* go but for trips where I am not going to be near anything I worry I might be w/o service.

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[UserChrisCanter4]

Agreed. I don't understand a lot of Verizon customers. Verizon's only major advantage is a coverage area that's a little better than most carriers, but we're realistically talking about a coverage area that's only beneficial to uber-travellers. For the majority of us who aren't constantly travelling, their rate plans are nowhere near as good as most competitors, and their phone prices are outrageous compared to the other carriers. Who the hell goes for the two year agreement just to get the crappiest phone for $30?

I sure hope T-Mobile hangs in there. They were the only major carrier willing to do a family plan with different area codes (a Godsend when both my brother and I were at different colleges), and their rate plans have generally been pretty reasonable.

My only recommendation if they go under would be Cingular, if only because of the GSM factor. Even though Sprint and Verizon's CDMA is technically better in almost every respect, I've typically found the handsets to be of lower quality (particularly the Korean ones). Also, the absence of a SIM-style system for storing phone numbers boggles my mind - I still crack up when I see people writing down every number in their phonebook when they're upgrading/replacing a phone.

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[thammoud]

I use Cingular and my experience with the service has been very good. I have a quad band GSM phone and they agreed to unlock it with a simple email. Turnaround time was 24 hours. Dump Verizon. I did.

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[bloodstains]

I don't understand a lot of Verizon customers. Verizon's only major advantage is a coverage area that's a little better than most carrier

Its a telephone. Its primary function is to make phone calls. Why would you not go with the service that, by your own admission is the best at that?

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[ArcCoyote]

I have a Moto v180 from was-AT&T-now-Cingular and they don't do much to restrict what you can do with your phone. Mine is unlocked as far as I know (I got it from AT&T, and because it was a new model, it hadn't been Cingularized yet)

I haven't had a problem connecting it to my PC with a standard mini-USB cable and MPT. I've edited the SEEM to let me reassign the m-Mode button, rearrange the menus, and set custom graphics/ringers/startup/shutdown sounds.

People around me in public get really confused when they see me turn on this little phone and it plays the Windows XP startup tune.

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[uradu]

It's definitely hit-and-miss. But I can say that on a trip from Pensacola FL back home to Chattanooga TN through the hinterlands of AL, we've been online with our laptop via our bluetooth phone almost the entire 8 hours, with very decent GPRS throughput. Once in a while a timeout a refresh, but not all that often. Sadly, about a third of that time was on /.

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[uradu]

> Why would you not go with the service that, by your own admission is the best at that?

Because low-level technical superiority does not always equate an overall better product and end-user experience. As an end-user, the close-to-godliness goodness of CDMA results in almost squat advantage. Sure you'll have über-geeks (particularly on /.) waxing on how the voice quality and QOS is so much better. But given an average CDMA phone and an average GSM phone in your average urban setting, most non-ideological people would be hard-pressed to detect a difference. What comes into play then are usability and convenience. In that respect, the US CDMA carriers haven't got a chance against GSM. The convenience of carrier-independent phones and the SIM cards far outweighs any shiny objects Sprint and Verizon might use to blind you to the shackles. You can order any old phone from Europe or Asia that tickles your fancy and that will never be offered in the US (as long as it's tri-band or supports the US frequencies). And you won't have to worry about having to hack the phone. And if you travel abroad, you simply buy a local prepaid SIM and have a local number for the duration of your visit, on your own phone, complete with your very own facial grease on the display and your own spittle on the mouthpiece.

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[mrscorpio]

Out here in east-central Iowa (i.e, the populous part), every other service is terrible except Verizon. US Cellular is OK in Cedar Rapids and Iowa City only, but in between you're screwed. Plus, I need to make Chicago calls and it wasn't included in the regional plan, only the national plan...doesn't work for me. Meanwhile, I can use my Verizon phone in my cement bunker-esque office building and even in the Amana Colonies (think Amish, only not). I've found about a 3 mile strech between my home and the Colonies where my phone doesn't work, and that's IT. Their customer service is as good as I've had from ANY telecom (wireless or otherwise), since I've been old enough to have my own phone service (that's about 6 years).

Being a former MCI employee when they were still viewed as reputable, nothing tweaks my girdle more than giving my money to a Ma Bell offshoot, believe me. The only justification I can use other than service for going through them is that I got a great deal through my brother-in-law who works for Motorola (Two V710's for $50 each and a contract that's $10 cheaper per month with 50 more minutes per month than the consumer ones). I looked really hard at ANYBODY else when I went contract shopping a couple of months ago, and sadly, no one compared to Verizon (even when considering their consumer grade contracts).

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[UserChrisCanter4]

Because all the services are about equal for 95% of the phone calls. In fact, all the services have similar coverage in about 95% of the areas. I don't know if you stopped reading at that sentence, but I go on to mention how that's only an advantage for people who do a huge amount of travelling. It's not as though every 20th call is going to drop for me; my phone just won't work in East Cow Turd, LA. Guess what? I have no intention of going to East Cow Turd, and neither do most people. For non Cow Turdians, all of the services work equally well, except Verizon costs about $10 more per month and about $50 more per phone.

Consider this scenario: You don't travel, and any phone service works in your area. For you, and for 9 out of your 10 friends, they are all about equal. One costs $10 more per month. Which one would you choose?

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[drgonzo59]

For a short term I would agree that low-level technical superiority doesn't always mean better end-user experience, but that is only in short term. In the long term CDMA offers more room for improvement and it uses the bandwidth more efficiently than GSM. The next generation of mobile technology that is being developed will be based off CDMA. What that means is that if the Europeans and other GSM-locked countries will want to evolve they'll have to pay to replace all their infrastructure and one way or another they'll push that onto the end-user.

But of course that is not way I got Verizon, I got because it was cheaper and more reliable in my area. In two years I would have no problem switching to T-Mobile or Cingular -- or whoever has cheaper+better service.

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[squiggleslash]

I have to disagree with the assertion CDMA offers any long term benefits over GSM. GSM "version 2" is UMTS, which allows a variety of air-interface technologies to be used, one of which is WCDMA. So in terms of efficiency, the two aren't different.

CDMA is in practice the system that has nowhere to go. It's supported by a small minority of carriers in the world, the "biggest" supporters, Verizon and Sprint PCS, make it a point to control and limit their customers personal mobility, and it owes its limited success, for the most part, to heavy lobbying by Qualcomm of the Clinton Administration, who in turn heavily lobbied a number of governments in the far east to jump on board.

It's also interesting to hear it described here as "technically superior to GSM in every way". The codecs are no better. The air interface standard is marginally better, though not in any way that'd be noticed by an actual customer (it helps carriers save costs, in theory, by allowing them to increase cell sizes while maintaining large amounts of capacity, though the usual risks of poor reception still exist under those circumstances and reduce the number of occasions this is useful in practice to a very small amount), but the mobile network model it uses is antiquated, based on a phone=subscriber location-specific dialing world from the 1970s. In practice, my sincere belief is that the major reason it was adopted by Verizon and many other cellular companies was that this obsolete network model made upgrading their existing networks trivial.

I don't believe CDMA (that is, IS95) has ever, in practice, been technically superior to GSM. In a small number of locations (well, actually, one or two, the air interface standard and the fact the damn thing has a standardized way of transmitting the time) one can say "Yes, this particular design decision will usually have a slight advantage over the equivalent decision made with GSM", but for the most part... urgh! Where's the personal mobility? The universal network codes? The location independent dialing?

Re: T-Mobile's the last frontier

[Y-Crate]

Unfortunately, while T-Mobile treats some customers extremely well, they have locked-down their flagship Sidekick 2 (Hiptop) phone hard while at the same time refusing to let SK2 users access their general ringtone repository. The SK2 ringtone selection is beyond anemic and is rarely updated. We are lucky to get 10 tones a month, and most of them are rap.

They fail to see how they are alienating their userbase and throwing potential profit out of the window. Customers actually want to give them money for the products they have in their possession (the ringtones) but T-Mobile will not grant them the "privilege" of purchasing them.

Don't get me started on the selection of apps (T-Mobile locks them out as well and new ones are rare as hen's teeth)....

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[aminorex]

T-mobile is the only national-scale cellular phone service in the U.S. which uses GSM 900MHz band, also used in most of Asia, and several countries in Europe. If you're planning to buy prepaid SIMs in these countries, T-mobile is the only U.S. service using cheap phones that will also work for you out of country. And they sell straightforward, largely uncrippled service.

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[Mr2001]

Agreed. I don't understand a lot of Verizon customers. Verizon's only major advantage is a coverage area that's a little better than most carriers

There are a couple other advantages. First is high speed data - when my cable modem goes out, or when I'm out someplace where there's no WiFi, I can get online at a decent speed with 1xRTT (faster than landline dialup). If I lived in a bigger city, and had the money to spend on it, I could get online at DSL speeds with 1xEV-DO.

Second is unlimited "in network" calling. This may be less of an advantage for you, but I know several other Verizon customers, and I can talk to them for free.

and their phone prices are outrageous compared to the other carriers. Who the hell goes for the two year agreement just to get the crappiest phone for $30?

If you've already been a customer for 2 years and you renew your contract, you get an extra $100 off the regular subsidized price of a new phone (under a promotion called New Every Two). That's how I got a free VX7000.

And hey, if you manage to get the phone you want somewhere else for less, you can probably use it on Verizon anyway. Unlike Sprint PCS, they don't have a policy to only activate phones they sold themselves.

Finally, the crappiest phone is $20 (for new 2-year contracts), not $30, at least in my market. ;)

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[UserChrisCanter4]

I'll concede the data issue; that is one area where CDMA does have a definite advantage over GSM systems.

The in-network calling can be beneficial, though with the price difference it's kind of debatable. Cingular's $7/7 promo (not sure if it's still running) pushed evening start times down to 7pm for $7, which a lot of people found more beneficial than in-network stuff (YMMV depending on how much you use in-network and at what time). Additionally, Verizon's higher price/minutes setup probably does necessitate using the in-network system as much as possible, but why not just get a carrier who's willing to give you decent minutes for the same amount?

How recently did VZ start their phone promo? When my ex-girlfriend was phone shopping not too long ago, they had nothing of the sort. Two years is still a scam, though, considering none of the other carriers require more than a year agreement for phone upgrade deals, and still give you promotional pricing.

Ah, the old days of activation. My T-mobile account has, in four years, been tied to a Nokia 3300, Nokia 3595, Nokia 6200, Siemens SL65, and Sony T610 (I used to get ludicrous hook-ups on phones, like $5 for a 3595 ludicrous). Pull SIM and reinsert and no one's the wiser. If Verizon decides to start extending their same cripple strategy tomorrow, they could easily decide not to activate your handset. Comparing anything to Sprint PCS is pointless - 2 cans attached by string would be preferable to Sprint.

I stand corrected on the crappiest phone issue. My research consisted of leading Verizon's webpage and seeing the first phone at the top (which was definitely crappy) listed at $30. I didn't really bother to scroll down. Of course, most other carriers do crappy phones for free with a one year agreement, which eliminates any arguement there.

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[CmdrGravy]

Don't you have Orange in the US ?

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[Mr2001]

I think New Every Two has been around for at least six years. I used it for my new phone, and the one before that, and IIRC the one before that.

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[Skater]

I have a question about the 1xRTT service - do they charge extra for that, or does it just use the plan's monthly minutes? (I can't find this answer on their site, and I don't trust the help desk to provide useful answers - they've given me bad information both times I called them.)

Thanks!

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[Mr2001]

America's Choice plans can be set up for NationalAccess MOU (minutes of use), which is billed just like a phone call. This might already be set up on your account, especially if your phone uses 1x for mobile web or Get It Now. If not, you can get customer service to add it, although it's not advertised and theoretically may stop being offered at some point.

There are also NationalAccess monthly plans, separate from the voice plans, if you want to pay for a MB allowance or unlimited use. These are described on the business section of their web site.

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[drew]

and they seem to have only a brushing acquaintance with that European phone maker, Nokia.

Nokia stopped making CDMA phones almost entirely back around 1998, when the majority of their CDMA phones were so bad that Sprint stopped carrying them entirely, and the other CDMA services could barely give them away for free (back before it became common for providers to give out new phones for free with extended service contracts)

I was on Sprint back around 99-2000, and I actually had frieds who switched to other carriers so that they could get that stupid little Nokia phone that was all over the place. I'm on a GSM carrier now, but from my experience with their phones so far, I would be hesitant to ever buy a Nokia phone anyway, even when they are available.

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[Syre]

With the latest Swedish study showing that the risk of developing brain tumors from cell phone usage appears to be highly correlated with the typical power output, it becomes important to use a service with good reception.

Generally, the less bars of reception you see, the more power your phone is putting out and hence the more is getting beamed into your brain.

There have also been claims made that CDMA, because it uses asynchronous bursts is less damaging than GSM which uses synchronous bursts of power.

Two good reasons to use Verizon which is CDMA with the best coverage.

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[uradu]

> In the long term CDMA offers more room for improvement
> and it uses the bandwidth more efficiently than GSM.

That is assuming that GSM would be standing still all this time. Which is, of course, wrong. Of the two, I would say that GSM has shown more growth and adaptability over the last almost two decades. For a technology designed back in the 80's, it's still kicking pretty well today. And as the other poster said, UMTS is based on a CDMA air interface, so there is definitely an upgrade path there. Of course, the politics of HOW this is being done by most carriers is another thing.

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[bluGill]

As the other guy said... The T-Mobil is on 1900mhz ONLY in the US. 900 and 1800 are used in most of the rest of the world, but no cell phone in the US uses either.

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[Kiryat Malachi]

No.

And we like it that way.

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[UserChrisCanter4]

Well, that confirms my crack smoking theory on their store employees. It was a seriously awful experience with those guys. My GF (at the time), renewed a two year contract with them and then discovered that service was basically non-existant around much of our apartment and university. She went in five days later and told them she wanted to terminate service. This shouldn't have been a problem, since they allowed termination of contracts up to two weeks.

Of course, the VZ store employees never finished the paperwork on time, which meant that my GF continued to get bills from Verizon... for nine more months. We'd call every month, and the lackey on the other end would be able to cancel that month's bill, but would never be able to fix the contract. It seriously took nine months of running around with them to get someone to actually cancel te service entirely. All of this because of the store employees' incompetence.

It lead us, of course, to mock Verizon's tagline. "No, seriously, we will never stop working for you, capiche?"

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[Skater]

I have the mobile web (I call it the "Worthless Wireless Web") on my phone, so it sounds like I'm good to go.

I tried it once last month, and the next bill just registered the time for the call, but I wanted to be sure I wasn't missing anything.

I don't intend to use it a lot, just on trips for short-term net access, so I don't want to get an entire plan for it.

Thanks!
--RJ

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[ran-o-matic]

This is way off-topic, but - Have you had the phone checked? It sounds broken.

Sprint PCS coverage is not as good as analog cell, but it's not that bad. Certainly better than T-Mobile.

Re:T-Mobile's the last frontier

[AstroJetson]

Out here it's pretty bad, even going by the coverage maps. I knew that going in but I expected it to work at least where they said it works. The phone works fine a half mile from my office....3-4 bars. So I don't think it's the phone, I think I just happen to work in a coverage hole. You could be right though...I should have them check it just to be sure.

Huh?

[ilyanep]

Selling a device that is intentionally crippled is just plain ridiculous

Why is it so ridiculous? The company is only out to make some more money. They don't want anything but that. Some people just don't get the fact.

Re:Huh?

[evilviper]

The company is only out to make some more money.

Charging $100,000 for a cell-phone would also be ridiculous, but might make them more money...

Re:Huh?

[phorm]

Yes, but they are selling the phones - in original boxes - without indicating that they are crippled. When I bought my audiovox phone it came just the same as any audiovox phones, except with the logos of my provider on the start screens, and feature-crippled.

They are not selling me model X of a phone, as model X should have the features indicated per that model. It's like buying a car that can only be filled with gas from the dealership because of a special intake... sure it makes the dealer money but it's very scummy and probably illegal to do so.

How about

[ArchieBunker]

Getting a phone that lets you record your own ringtone? I signed up for T-Mobile and the cheap Siemens phone lets me do that.

Re:How about

[Pollardito]

i hope i'm not stuck next to you when your phone rings and i get to hear your offkey warble no doubt recorded in the shower :)

V710

[matth]

This is nothing new.. I have a V710 from Verizon and have modified the firmware. Hack is a strong term and really isn't what is being done. It is my phone.. I purchased it under my contract. I chose to flash it with a firmware I wrote, and I take full responsibility for any technical issues I may have with it. I have not ripped Verizon off of any cost or services that (ie free minutes)..

Re:V710

[CDLI]

Since when did hacking necessarily involve ripping someone off?

Re:V710

[Junior J. Junior III]

I purchased it under my contract.

And if the contract states that you won't use Verizon's services with any phone running non-Verizon-authorized firmware, what then?

I have not ripped Verizon off of any cost or services

Unless they had intended to charge you for custom ringtones or something silly like that...

I'm sympathetic that the stuff that they do charge for is often bullshit. But that doesn't mean that you should have the "right" to circumvent what you've contractually obligated yourself to follow.

It's one thing if they really did sell you the device outright, and sold you service on their networks with no stipulations about what you could do to the software running on your phone. If they were forcing customers to do this with no contract, I'd be up in arms over it. Well figuratively anyway; like most Americans I probably still wouldn't give much of a crap.

But if you don't like the terms of the contract, you don't have to accept them. If enough people felt like you, and actually did something about it and refused to do business with companies that offered shitty ToS, and told them so, there'd be a market for products that did not come with shitty ToS strings attached.

Look at Speakeasy as an example of an ISP who respects what geeky customers want, or Google as a web services company that by and large does things right -- this isn't just some idealistic pipedream, it is a reality and can be for more products if we stand up and make ourselves heard, instead of being whores for the lowest-priced goods and services available, without regard to the other intangible costs.

(Psst, Hey Speakeasy! How about getting into the cell phone market? I want to run Linux on my Nokia, and I know you'd let me!)

Re:V710

[nxtw]

Summary: Verizon Wireless's customer agreement does not have these stipulations you speak of. You are, in effect, making things up.

Direct quote:
Your wireless phone is any device you use to receive our wireless voice or data service. It must comply with Federal Communications Commission regulations and be compatible with our network and your calling plan.

And if the contract states that you won't use Verizon's services with any phone running non-Verizon-authorized firmware, what then?

I don't know, maybe the Verizon firmware police will confiscate your phone after using their firmware-detecting machine? The customer agreement linked above has no mention of Verizon-authorized firmware. It says it only must be compatible with Verizon's network and your calling plan.

Unless they had intended to charge you for custom ringtones or something silly like that...

When you purchase a phone, it becomes your private property... they *sell* it to you, at a reduced price, and you also sign a contract tying you to the SERVICE. The phone however, is not theirs. You're allowed to modify the software on it all you want. So if these nonexistant contract stipulations existed, it's still not their phone.

I'm sympathetic that the stuff that they do charge for is often bullshit. But that doesn't mean that you should have the "right" to circumvent what you've contractually obligated yourself to follow.

There is no contractual obligations here and no circumventing of them.

It's one thing if they really did sell you the device outright, and sold you service on their networks with no stipulations about what you could do to the software running on your phone.

They did sell the device outright! The device is yours; the contract you sign for 1-2 years is in exchange for a reduced price on the phone. They allow you to do whatever you want. They *sold* you the phone. It's *yours*. The contract only locks you to their service. If you cancel the contract after the first 15 days, you keep the phone and pay the early termination fee (before 15 days, you return it and pay no fee.)

But if you don't like the terms of the contract, you don't have to accept them. If enough people felt like you, and actually did something about it and refused to do business with companies that offered shitty ToS, and told them so, there'd be a market for products that did not come with shitty ToS strings attached. I don't see anything in Verizon's ToS that's nonstandard or not to be expected from any large corporation. The problem is not with Verizon's ToS, but with the phones they sell.

It is extremely difficult/impossible to enter the nationwide wireless market without reselling, so there's not going to be some new nerd-friendly service launching.

Also, there are other choices that don't limit their phones down so much. Cingular and T-Mobile sell GSM phones without any limits on what you can do (besides the subsidy lock); if you don't like their phones, you can use any other compatible GSM device. Sprint's phones aren't nearly as limited...

Look at Speakeasy as an example of an ISP who respects what geeky customers want, or Google as a web services company that by and large does things right -- this isn't just some idealistic pipedream, it is a reality and can be for more products if we stand up and make ourselves heard, instead of being whores for the lowest-priced goods and services available, without regard to the other intangible costs.

Speakeasy fills a niche market. Otherwise, SBC and Verizon have a much larger DSL marketshare. I still don't understand what the huge attraction to Google is all about: good search engine, otherwise I don't care. If you want to stand up and make yourself heard while making up things about large corporations, you'll only make yourself look stupid. There have been and still are mobile companies that don't do this to customers. Verizon has never been the only choice.

Re:V710

[Junior J. Junior III]

I'm not a Verizon customer, so of course I don't have access to their contract, and am speaking hypothetically. I have no idea what the terms of their contract are, but IF they specify no modification of hardware beyond vendor-approved firmware upgrades, then you are bound by that contract, whether the phone is your property or theirs.

If it is yours, you're free to hack it as much as you want, but the moment you enter into a contract with a phone service provider, you will be bound by the contract that you agree to. If you read the contract carefully and find that you are free to used hacked hardware, then great. Otherwise, either don't agree to the contract, or follow the terms.

If enough people don't agree to the contract, they'll be forced to re-write the contract to something more agreeable.

Re:V710

[nxtw]

I'm not a Verizon customer, so of course I don't have access to their contract, and am speaking hypothetically.

I just showed you the customer agreement. It does have any of your "hypothetical" stipulations.

Re:V710

[MrJohnDoe]

Actually, if you're going to post something, it helps at times to have read it fully yourself. Your point is right, in the end, but I'm amazed no one posted this: (Direct Quote) Our Rights To Limit Or End Service Or This Agreement You agree not to resell our service to someone else without our prior written permission. You also agree your wireless phone won't be used for any other purpose that isn't allowed by this agreement or that's illegal. WE CAN, WITHOUT NOTICE, LIMIT, SUSPEND, OR END YOUR SERVICE OR ANY AGREEMENT WITH YOU FOR THIS OR ANY OTHER GOOD CAUSE, including, but not limited to: (a) paying late more than once in any 12 months; (b) incurring charges larger than a required deposit or billing limit (even if we haven't yet billed the charges); (c) harassing our employees or agents; (d) lying to us; (e) interfering with our operations; (f) becoming insolvent or going bankrupt; (g) breaching this agreement; (h) "spamming," or other abusive messaging or calling; (i) modifying your wireless phone from its manufacturer's specifications; (j) providing credit information we can't verify; (k) using your service in a way that adversely affects our network or other customers; or (l) allowing anyone to tamper with your wireless phone number. We can also temporarily limit your service for any operational or governmental reason. Now, that Seems to say that seem edits, reenabling OBEX profiles and the like, they CAN disble your phone. Verizon, however, SCREWED THEMSELVES. For, in said agreement, they also say This agreement and the documents to which it refers form the entire agreement between us on their subjects. They also said, and I quote still more, "the manufacturer's specifications". Not the original specifications, modifying it from the manufacturer's specifications. Now, let us take a full look at the manufacturer's specs: (From Motorola.com, full specifications for Mobile phone device e815, used as an example) Integrated Digital Camera : 1.3 megapixels Polyphonic Speaker : 64 Khz Downloadable Themes (Ringtones, Wallpaper & Screensavers) MIDI ringtones Integrated MP3 Player Video clip capture and playback Picture Phone Book Call Management Features Photo caller ID Speaker independent speech recognition Integrated speakerphone Caller line identifier (CLI) : sleek and hidden Messaging Features SMS EMS 5.0 MMS (Picture / photo + text + sound) Brew 2.1 on 1X Lifestyle Features Single phone number across networks Bluetooth® wireless technology enabled Performance Features Bands : CDMA 1X aGPS 800/1900, GSM 900/1800 Standby Time : up to 121 hours Talk Time : up to 180 minutes Data Features Transflash(TM) Memory Card : expansion slot PC Synchronization WAP : 2.0 Connectivity : CE Bus Technical Specifications Antenna : external retractable Form Factor - Clamshell Dimensions (H x W x D) : 49 x 94 x 24 mm Weight : 115 grams Display Type : 96 x 64 4096 Color CSTN NOTE: Certain mobile phone features are dependent on the capabilities and settings of your service provider's network. Additionally, certain features may not be activated by your service provider, and/or their network settings may limit the feature's functionality.Always contact your service provider about feature availability and functionality.All features, functionality and other product specifications are based upon the latest available information and are believed to be accurate; however such product specifications are subject to change without notice or obligation. So, since the features are listed in the manufacturer's specifications of the phone, they are part of it. Motorola even gives leeway for the specifications to be inaccurate because Verizon disbled features, but the Manufacturer's Specifications remain the same. SINCE THE PROBLEM IS WITH VERIZON, NOT THE PHONE, Verizon has given you then permission to modify the phone freely so as to fit the manufacturer's specifications, reenabling all features they disabled. Also, al

Whoosh! What's that sound overhead?

[screwthemoderators]

Obviously you don't have much experience hacking hardware, and little knowledge of electronics marketing. Verizon sells these phones much cheaper than they would if it were not crippled. (that's how the stategy usually works) A little hobby called overclocking got started this way. But its obviously beneath you, o clever html tagger, or else you work for Verizon!

Re:Whoosh! What's that sound overhead?

[UserChrisCanter4]

Oh, I know electronics marketing. Verizon's not playing the ol' Celeron 300 game here, they're just looking for added revenue by forcing the end user to buy their add-ins from Verizon. They've done the same thing in the past with the bluetooth on a lot of their phones: it's essentially a "bluetooth for headset purposes only." Here, they're just playing with the internal software and disallowing normal data cable connections. This is not like selling a 400mhz CPU as a 350Mhz because the market isn't demanding as many 400mhz CPUs. It's more like HP purposely disabling the cache on an otherwise functional CPU because they can. You're being cut-off from a feature that Motorola allows on that model by default, but which has been cut off by Verizon.

Other carriers sell similar phones, without crippled software, for similar prices. It's not as though going in and tweaking the software allows Verizon to save money on the phone.

The poster is angry that the phone is crippled, and reasons that the only natural thing to do is hack it? I would expect that NOT BUYING THE DAMNED THING would be a much more logical approach to the problem.

Props to the guy for hacking it, and it's nice to know that Verizon users can do the same thing if they've found themselves stuck with an otherwise crippled phone, but the "natural" approach to dealing with jack-assery from a company isn't to go buy their product.

not just the v265

[Matey-O]

My V600 had a great deal of whackyness I couldn't get fixed (garbled external clock, occasionaly reboots, oh and fi you return your phone for a refurb with games on it you've had more than a few months...you're screwed.)

So Google 'hack v600' and there's a plethora of nifty things out there for it. The BIG stickler is: you've gotta get a REAL USB cable...my first one had a black box in the middle that converted usb on the PC side to the serial interface on the phone. You MUST have full USB to update the phone.

There are two (and a half) levels of updates for these phones; Flex, Flash, and Seems.

The Flex is similar to a firmware update in that is updates the low level internals of the phone. In doing so, I noticed improved reception, slightly better battery life, etc. I didn't wait long enough to see if that alone would fix my problems, I proceeded to :

The Flash. Flash contains all the software that operates the phone. For awhile, I played around with a European software set that had a ROCKIN version of Monopoly (trust me, that's not a dichotomy of terms) It's major problem was a lack of american GPRS support. So I had a more stable phone, with some tnifty new features, but I couldn't surf the web using bluetooth on the busride.

I then found an american Flash that did what I needed it too. I still had to enter the defaults from mMode, and SMS stuff (luckily I had the wife's phone to refer to), but it did a pretty good job of squashing the bugs in the native AT&T Flash...

Which brings up an important point: the OEM flash is NOT backup-able, nor is it available via the usual suspects. So when you jump, you jump with both feet and no net. It turned out okay in the end (after I got the internet connectivity stuff worked out) but it's somethign to be aware of. If you're REALLY stuck on it saying AT&T, don't update your phone.

One of the mods allows for uploading java apps from the desktop (A procedure usually masked off by the cellphone carriers...they want YOU to pay THEM for this stuff) So I managed to get that european version of Monopoly back.

Seems are patches to a Flex that enable, disable, of modify behavior. I haven't tried them, and haven't yet seen the need to.

Lastly: While this has been v600 specific, the vXXX series of phones (6XX 5XX and 4XX at the very least) all support these flex/flash combos. so a cheaper phone can pick up the multimedia apps and some items available on the more expensive bretheren. (except where hardware limitations prevent it...face it, if bluetooth isn't on the motherboard, you can't turn it on via software)

It kinda bugs me that this wasn't available as a service from AT&T, I would have gladly stuck with a firmware REV to solve the problems...coure now, I'll never have to pay for phone software, so I'm okay with that too.

Re:not just the v265

[I_can_not_believe_I_]

Ok, for all the abuse Canadian cell providers take, my Rogers V551 came wide open, want to load a Java game? Sure, no problem. Pictures, ringtones, whatever you want, everything over bluetooth too. Even looking at the reference set-up for the V551, they left a few minor bells and whistles off the menus, though I'll chalk that up to keeping things to a manageable size, there's definetly nothing missing I'd flash the phone for. The only concern of course is the subsidy lock, they're not content with the legal contract they've got me in, that means they get their pound of flesh every month, they've gotta make sure my phone's pretty much useless while travelling.

Deja vu

[Bilange]

"Crippled" cell phones seems to be common.

For example I bought a LG 5450 from Telus, but Telus blocks downloading tones/wallpapers off the net, forcing users to download off Telus website only.

When I asked about the phone-to-PC data cable, the vendor said it didnt exist, when in fact it does

Today, I use Bitpim to download/upload photos, ringtones, you name it, using this guide. Enjoy!

Re:you don't think much, do you? Crippleware issue

[Linus Torvaalds]

There is usually no way to know if the technology you bought is crippled until you take it apart.

Yeah. It's not as if you can put 'Motorola v265 review' into Google and have the very first hit tell you that it's crippled. It's not as if the review directly states: "With Verizon's Get It Now pay-per-download service, users wishing to customize their V265 may need to pay extra fees. " is it? Oh wait.

Low cost public WiFi phones ?

[zymano]

A simple Antenna every so many miles . Or use public muni network. It could be done. Just another project that needs to be kickstarted. Could you imagine the howling of the phone companies if it happens ?

I can't stand cellphones . I believe they're pretty much a ripoff.

Cell Phones

[BorisSkratchunkov]

Cell phones are becoming shabbier and shabbier these days in some ways, but they're also becoming ridiculously complex. Despite obvious setbacks such as exploding batteries and other notions described in this article, cell phones appear to be coming to a fairly interesting state. Modern cell-phones have all the nuances of multimedia integrated into them, along with the inherent ability to talk with other people (which cell phones were designed for originally). However, multimedia has probably contributed slightly to the cell phone's downfall a mite, adding bugs and new features to maintain. Naturally, with all those cool features like camera phones and such, no one shall notice that ring tones are not included; this is despite the fact that they indicate one of the phone's primary functions (receiving calls).

Cell phone hacks

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.cellphonehacks.com/

nuff said.

The only

[wowbagger]

... only natural thing to do in a situation like this is to hack it.

Of course, because we simply CANNOT do without our toys - we cannot simply REFUSE to buy phones that are crippled, and if there are no service providers who will allow you to get a phone that is not crippled to simply DO WITHOUT.

Because it is a LAW OF NATURE that we must CONSUME whatever toys we are told to CONSUME.

We simply cannot refuse - so we must hack.

YOU HAVE NO CHOICE. SUBMIT. CONSUME, AND REPRODUCE.

Re:The only

[Anonymous Coward]

YOU HAVE NO CHOICE. SUBMIT. CONSUME, AND REPRODUCE.

This is slashdot. Submitting and consuming isn't the problem, but the third one kinda trips everyone up.

Re:The only

[serbanp]

Cellphones tend today to become a neccessity, so to do without them may not be an option (I myself do not own a cellphone and I'm very happy about it).

For the people who need the phone part of cell-phone, today's offering is really crummy: lots and lot of cellphones that do many things, beside voice, and do all of them badly.

This is not even the cellphone makers' fault, as they need to differentiate themselves somehow from the competition in a market where there's almost no profit and where the ultimate selector is cost.

Many people I spoke with would simply prefer a more expensive cellphone that does not have all the crappy gadgets but will provide good voice quality, a sensitive RX (so that the signal is not so easily lost) and good battery life. They must be the minority though, cos' no one steps up to offer such a device.

Cell Hacking File Site

[rayray14]

I created a website a while ago that hosts alot of cell phone file hacking programs. You can check it out at http://cell.robsbox.com/. You do need to create a username and password, this is only to limit the downloads per user to something reasonnable to i don't have 200 users downloading all 90 or so files at 400mb...

MP3 Playing phones! not ringtones

[screwthemoderators]

I've been waiting for a cheap phone that will play mp3s. I don't need a hard-drive iPod phone, I just always have my phone with me, it has a earphone jack, and it has multi-megabyte memory, So why don't they include MP3 playing capability on cheap cell phones? Fsck ringtones.

Give Credit Where Credit is Due

[syntap]

The OP links to this guy's blog where he has all the seem edit info, etc but give credit to all those who worked all of this out in the past year. These are frequent posters to howardforums.com and cellphonehacks.com. This guy was "standing on the shoulders of giants" for all of his info on hacking the v265. It's basically a repost of what others had already done through trial, error, and oopsies that fried their phones.

Re:Give Credit Where Credit is Due

[endeitzslash]

Also, motomodders.net is a good place for this kind of stuff.

Re:Give Credit Where Credit is Due

[phoric]

Which is why I mentioned the great forums at cellphonehacks.com several times in the article. I never claimed to come up with it all myself, in fact I said that had I assembled the information from a variety of sources. To spend hours researching and tracking down the original authors is a bit much for a simple blog post.

Re:Give Credit Where Credit is Due

[Malc]

The trouble with Howard Forums like many of these crap bulletin boards is that their idea of an FAQ is 40 pages of comments (most of which are comprised of silly images, signatures and other unrelated crap). I personally would much prefer a proper web page for information, and discussions via NNTP. So when somebody writes a blog "standing on the shoulds of giants", he/she does us all a big favour.

Personally, I'm thinking about ditching Verizon

[l0ungeb0y]

It may sound fickle, but the fact that Verizon likes to pretend that Windows is the only operating system in the world and they cripple Bluetooth to the point of uselessness makes me want to switch to another carrier.

I'm hesitant though, since I've been with Verizon so long, love the quality of customer service support and have no coverage issues at all.

But, seeing how they are willing to commit fraud by selling something pretending to be what it isn't i.e. calling it Bluetooth instead of CrippledBy VerizonToRapeYourWalletTooth -- there is currently a class action suite against them for that -- pisses me off to no end. And personally, I think speak volumes of their attitude torward both technology and their user base in general.

So I've heard T-Mobile dosn't jack their bluetooth phones...
Is this the case? Personally, I'm thinking about just waiting for the Apple/Motorola iPhone and switching to whatever carrier has that (if and when it does come out) since it is the phone most likely not to be fucked with by a greedy carrier and it should integrate seamlessly with my all Apple home network.

Any readers online who have words of praise for cell carriers in the SF Bay Area that offer quality coverage, reasonable customer service and serve bluetooth straight up with no feature lockdowns?

Re:Personally, I'm thinking about ditching Verizon

[spxero]

I've been in the bay area with cingular since 1998 (when they were pacbell pcs), and have had very few problems.

The phones: Cingular doesn't limit their phones to what they want it to do. I currently have a sonyericsson s710a that has bluetooth, infrared, memory stick, and a usb cable. I can transfer data between my computer and my phone, as well as to other phones (such as cingular's motorola line). The only limit that I have seen is in sharing games and applications. They have to be in the 'others' directory on the phone in order to share, but they can't be opened from there.

The service: I do know of a few drop spots, but they are few and far in between. And since cingular and at&t have come together, many of those drop points are gone. The area I am in mostly is the east bay area (san ramon, danville, walnut creek, pleasanton) and not the city. When i do go to the city, i have not noticed much change.

The customer service: The plan I am on includes 5 phones and is about $225 a month. So when going in for phone service, billing questions, etc. they will do pretty much whatever they can. Here's my most recent example: My sister's phone (z500a) screen went dark and when opened, she couldn't see anything on the screen. They promptly mailed a replacement, which had a broken speaker. So we took the phone into the store (the one in san ramon next to target) and they replaced it with a brand new phone- without us having insurance on the phone, and the phone being 2 months old. While in store, they had bluetooth earpieces on sale with a mail-in-rebate. After a little asking, the woman behind the counter sold me 2 earpieces with the discount, and without having to mail in the rebates.

So if you're going to switch because of the phones, they are a good option (especially if you are going with sonyericsson). e-mail me if you have any q's at spxero@gmail.com

Re:Personally, I'm thinking about ditching Verizon

[jms1]

I had been with AT&T for several years and was fairly happy with them, until Cingular bought them out. Within a month I started having problems with the service- I started having random service drops (in the middle of Orlando) as if somebody were randomly rebooting the cell sites, they force-downloaded new settings to my phone by accident once... but the final straw was when their customer service web site suddenly didn't recognize my password and the support people refused to reset it because I didn't have a "secret question" attached to my account on the web site- something AT&T had never used but Cingular added without considering the effect on the customers they were inheriting from AT&T.

I switched to T-Mobile and took my number with me- the number porting process was done in four hours, and in the five months since this happened I have yet to have a single problem with their service, other than lack of service on part of US-17 south of Orlando- and even that has since been corrected (I guess they put up a cell site down there.) Their web site even has an interactive widget which shows you the coverage strength at a very specific level- for example if I were to move two blocks, my coverage would be about 15% higher.

I've been very happy with them since moving. The only thing I wish they could do is unlock my old phones from the other carriers I've had over the years.

As for the data services... they charge $5/mo to access the web from the phone itself, or $20/mo to use the phone (Nokia 6600) as a "Bluetooth modem" and access the internet from a laptop (or a Palm device.) I have the $5/mo package and have used the phone's built-in browser, but not enough to judge the speed- if I had to guess I would say it was in the 50-60k range (a little faster than dialup but nowhere near broadband.)

For the forgetful...

[__aaitqo8496]

Same subject but different phone:

V710 Hacker Reward Program Unsuccessful

Verizon Crippled Bluetooth Features in Motorola V710

Mine's already been hacked

[unitron]

I recently had to give up my StarTac 7868W for a 265 because of the GPS-911 thing. I keep setting it for a loud ring and the standard ringtone and it keeps getting re-set (I have no idea how) to soft and one of those arpeggio things so it's 50/50 whether I realise that someone's calling me before they hang up.

I really miss my StarTac. It's been like changing to a newer computer and version of Windows. Takes longer to boot up, has more stuff for which I have no use, all my old shortcuts are gone, and I have to wade through more menu levels to get to what I want. Progress sucks.

Re:Mine's already been hacked

[Dielectric]

The 7868W was the last great Motorola phone, IMHO. It was just a phone, it worked well, and it didn't look girly or playschool. It was all business.

Too bad I dropped mine in a toilet. I just couldn't bring myself to putting that thing by my head after that.

Re:Mine's already been hacked

[Kiryat Malachi]

One thing to note is that most (all, so far as I know) of the 200/300/400/600 series phones have two seperate stored ring settings - one for when its plugged in to charge, and one for when it isn't. If you change one setting, it won't affect the other. Of course, if you don't know it does that, it's a pain in the ass. I leave mine set to vibrate when its not plugged in (it must be in my pocket) and ring loud as a bastard when it is (I'm probably not that close to it, or I need the wakeup call).

Out of curiosity, what menu depth issues do you have? The OS Motorola used on that phone is pretty flexible; if there's a frequently used feature you're missing quick access to, it might be very easy to restore.

Not really.

[Transcendent]

Unfortunately, Verizon Wireless cripples their phones so that you have to use their fee-based service in order to add new ringtones, or to transfer the pictures you take with the camera.

Unfortunately, you can easily buy a data cable w/ software to hook up to your computer, which lets you transfer pictures, movies, ring tones, address book, etc. My friend and I use it on our samsung phones.

Re:Not really.

[librarygeek]

Except for the fact that verizon cripples the motorola phone tools software.

Re:Not really.

[phoric]

In the case of the v265, you are incorrect. The point of the article is that Verizon cripples the ability to transfer data with the data cable. We are simply unlocking that feature.

Re:Not really.

[mrchaotica]

Unfortunately, that makes Verizon no less of an asshole (collectively speaking).

Re:Not really.

[DrXym]

The whole point of bluetooth is that you shouldn't have to attach your phone to a computer. If you need a cable (or infrared), it means the bluetooth has been crippled or is broken to begin with.

When bluetooth works, it's actually kind of neat. But it breaks so much that I am impressed when it works at all. I have four bluetooth devices - an Acer laptop, a Sony-Ericsson T610, a Motorola wireless headset and a iPaq 4150. Bluetooth for each of those devices (except the headset) is buried under 4 or 5 nested menus. The bluetooth software on the iPaq & Acer is also extremely fragile. I actually feel that I have been blessed when I manage to get them to talk to each other without problems.

More often than not, the devices can be right beside each other and they still don't work properly. Or a device crashes. Or if it does work I can detect (for example) my headset, but the PC / iPaq can't use it as a device even though it would be fantastic for Skype.

I don't know much about the organization behind the bluetooth 'standard' but my feeling is they should be cracking the whip. Halfassed and crippled implementations are killing it. The 'standard' could more accurately be called 'pot luck' and its doing the technology no favours at all.

Re:Not really.

[Alioth]

I've had the opposite experience - I frequently use Bluetooth to connect my PowerBook to my Nokia phone to use for GPRS on the move, and I've not had a problem with it. Also worked fine with a Sony Vaio laptop.

T-Mobile not selling

[rale, the]

This article on forbes indicates that the whole thing about selling it was likely fabricated.

While Deutsche Telekom spokespersons refused to comment on a report they termed "pure speculation," high-ranking company officials told the German daily Sueddeutsche Zeitung they were convinced the report in the Wall Street Journal Europe was fabricated.

They told the newspaper they believed certain elements in the U.S. financial sector were interested in "disrupting Telekom and its U.S. investments."

Not quite true

[Mr2001]

Unfortunately, Verizon Wireless cripples their phones so that you have to use their fee-based service in order to add new ringtones, or to transfer the pictures you take with the camera.

This might be true for a few specific phones, but not in general.

I recently got an LG VX7000, which is a camera/video phone. Verizon naturally wants me to use their services to purchase ringtones and wallpapers and to retrieve the photos and videos I capture, but with BitPim and a simple USB cable ($10 on eBay), I can transfer all the pictures, ringers, and videos I want to and from the phone. Verizon even sells a cable as part of their Mobile Office kit.

Now, if only I could develop my own BREW applications...

The Magic Word is 'Subsidy'

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a story regarding the new Motorola v551 phone that I "bought" from a Rogers Wireless store in Toronto. To get the phone at a decent price, you sign up for a contract that lasts 2 or 3 years. I picked the 2 year contract, paid a little extra, and brought my phone home. It's GSM, so my phonebook was intact as soon as I popped the sim card in from my old Rogers phone.

Within a few weeks, I wanted to go overseas and use my cell phone over there. Rogers in Canada charges nearly $3.00 a minute for any international calls (roaming + international) which was completely unacceptable. So, I picked up a Euro sim card that works in France from a friendly vendor in Chinatown (College and Spadina), and all looked well; the sim card gave me a France phone number, unlimited incoming calls as long as I was in France, and a killer per-minute rate on one of the Euro networks (Vodaphone, O2, etc). And the sim was pay-as-you-go, with the ability to top it up from almost anywhere (including online).

I popped the new sim and turned the phone on, and I wasn't surprised that it said "Please enter subsidy code." I phoned up Rogers and asked them politely for the subsidy code. They basically told me to fuck off and use their contracted providers over in Europe at $3.00/min incoming and outgoing. You know that saying.. "they get you coming and they get you going?" ..well, that's exactly what this was -- literally!

The key point is that they sold me my phone at a loss. It's a RAZR V3 without the flimsy packaging and edge capabilities that actually work. I paid $150, and they said the phone was worth much, much more than that. That little word "subsidy" means exactly what it means, and they want you locked to their network until the end of time (if they had it their way).

Luckily, I live in Toronto. So, I walked back to Chinatown and found someone who unlocks cell phones for $40. I haggled and got the service down to $30. 5 seconds is all it took to unlock my v551 and it didn't even need a sim card installed to do it. A cable was plugged in at the bottom of the phone, a button was pressed on an external 'black box', a green light came on next to the button, the phone was powered on, and that was it.

The point of all this? That's real hacking right there. The guy/gal or guys/gals who worked on that bootstrap code to remove the subsidy lock on my v551 without even needing to know the firmware revision my phone was at.. now they deserve an article on Slashdot.

I used my unlocked phone in France without a problem. My phone is now worth whatever they're going for on eBay in an unlocked configration (more than $150 CDN that's for sure). I saved a lot of money by not paying Rogers their international rates.

Just because a cell provider wants to cripple your phone, lock it up, and sell it to you at a loss.. doesn't mean that you can't have someone unlock it, load a better firmware on it, and set you up with the cable you need to transfer your photos and contacts off of it.

I love the stuff that comes out of Russia sometimes ;)

Re:The Magic Word is 'Subsidy'

[nxtw]

The point of all this? That's real hacking right there. The guy/gal or guys/gals who worked on that bootstrap code to remove the subsidy lock on my v551 without even needing to know the firmware revision my phone was at.. now they deserve an article on Slashdot.

They don't need to know the firmware revision because the subsidy lock has nothing to do with it. The subsidy unlock code is based on the IMEI.

A Slashdot article is definitely NOT deserved, as the unlocking algorithims are not public and the hardware to unlock these phones is sold at a decent profit and used to make even more profit.

Re:The Magic Word is 'Subsidy'

[nxtw]

My question is this: is it f(IMEI) = subsidy code or f(IMEI,carrier_id) = subsidy code?

I think there's a bit more to it; the "database" problem you had probably had something to do with the "carrier_id" variable not actually being an actual "carrier_id" but instead something more, like a randomly generated key.

From what I understand, a batch of phones is manufactuered for one carrier and those IMEIs are all sequential or somehow assigned so that they are identifable as being in a range belonging to a given carrier. But all this is based on my observations, and may be completely wrong.

Re:The Magic Word is 'Subsidy'

[Malc]

Yeah, I got a V600 off eBay. I use Rogers pay as you go. I refuse to lock myself in to a plan. I'm in England right now and their dumb plan won't even let me receive texts or calls or check my messages. I popped in a Virgin pay as you go SIM and off I went. So glad I got a used unlocked phone - saved money and kept my freedom. Oh and guess what? They still seem to bill by the second over here. None of this bollocks like paying for 30 seconds a call that you didn't use. Now I just need to flex or flash the thing as ATT Wireless (original network of the phone) made some settings impossible to change.

I would switch from Rogers, but I don't want to change my phone number. It's time we got number portability in Canada. I hate the obcene billing behaviour too of the Canadian providers (might be the same everywhere). "Pay as you go' is a joke! If you don't use your minutes in a month you lose them (what did I pay for?), unless you top up. If you want a $10/mo plan because you don't use much, you'll get stupidly high billing rates. You're almost forced in to $20/mo. With billing rates of the $20/mo plan, I don't use all my time and so I start accumulating. Of course, you have to make a minimum $20 payment to top up too, which makes it worse. Then there's the whole billing by the minute thing that can only be described as daylight robbery. I have a feeling that the only provider around here that doesn't do that is Fido... and now that they're owned by Rogers I wonder how long that will last.

Re:The Magic Word is 'Subsidy'

[rsynnott]

No, it certainly isn't the same everywhere; that's mad. The North American continent seems to get severely screwed over this stuff, for some reason.

No kidding...

[SaDan]

I've used US Cellular, Cingular, and Nextel for work, none of which have a reliable signal IN MY BACK YARD in the third largest city in Illinois (USA). I frequently drop calls/miss text messages when those phones were in my house.

Driving (I do that a lot all over the midwest) made matters worse. I could be on I-80, I-39, I-65, I-70, I-74, and drop calls or have no signal for many miles at a time. I have no service with Nextel in downtown Chicago at times. Unacceptable.

My personal phone is a Verizon phone. It freakin' works everywhere I've ever gone, which is why I'll NEVER switch, unless someone can provide better coverage for half the price or less.

I pay more for a phone that works all the time, regardless of where I travel. It's important to my job, and important for my family.

Re:No kidding...

[NeoSkandranon]

Lucky you. I'm in the middle of the largest city in the state (Charlotte, NC) and here verizon sucks. I'm within rock's throw of a major university and my signal bounces like a rubber ball, calls drop, the phone flat doesnt ring. Totally unacceptable service for a major population center.

The v710 Story

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's the story of what Verizon did to the v710: http://www.canyouhearusnow.net/v710/v710story.php

Re:Low cost public WiFi phones ?

[m0ng0l]

Why do you think it isn't happening?

Why do you think in the US, a goodly number of cell phones with WiFi or BlueTooth are "crippled"

All it takes is for someone to port Skype or the like to [choose your phone OS], for phones with WiFi or BlueTooth. Then why would you use the cell carriers ever so expensive networks for phone calls?

I've got a Treo 600, and while there are tales of people, who with quite a bit of driver hacking/modifying have gotten a WiFi/SD memory card to work with the Treo 650, no one has done such with the 600. For WiFi, the only option is a company that (someday, maybe) will be releasing a WiFi "sled" to attach to the back of the phone. Making it twice as think, and likely quite a bit heavier...

Here in the US, the big corporations are able to ignore new phones with neat features until they can get the cell phone manufacturers to "cripple" certain features. Then they release them. Years after they were released elsewhere...

I was drooling over the Ericson P900. My guess is that phone will either
A) not be available in the US. Ever.
B) be out when it is so out of date, it won't be worth it....

News update on TMO. RE: T-Mobile's the last fronti

[saitoh]

found here (TMO not interested to sell): http://www.ecommercetimes.com/rsstory/44408.html

As for the best option if you were to jump ship, its dependant on your area really. Besides that, Cingular is SIM based so you can bring your phone to them (after its unlocked) and you dont have to sign a contract (unless that deal has changed).

Re:Heh

[QuaZar666]

I am going to assume you mean the IPod in which case all the other ones are crippled as well, for not supporting/finding a way to license AAC, APLE, etc. Now having said this I would love to see the IPOD get OGG support, maybe even quicktime movie support. maybe just turn it into a multimedia PDA.

Dialup? No problem

[Mr2001]

I switched from Verizon to T-Mobile and have been very happy with them except for lack of coverage in some places. I can dial up my favorite ISP with my bluetooth phone for no extra fee

You can do this with Verizon too... as long as you're on an America's Choice plan, and your favorite ISP is Verizon. ;)

There's no extra fee, but it does use your minutes just like a regular phone call (so it's free between 9 PM and 6 AM, and all day Saturday, Sunday, and many holidays). Just connect the phone to your computer and make a dialup connection with the following info:

Number: #777 (spells PPP)
Username: <your 10 digit phone number>@vzw3g.com
Password: vzw

Presto, you're online. You may want to download the Venturi client, which will do some compression to make web browsing faster, but it's not required. As an added bonus, since you're using Verizon's 1xRTT network (packet data) instead of a regular circuit data connection, you'll probably get speeds of 60-80 kbps or higher, instead of the 14k or so you'd otherwise get with a cellular data call. (If you're outside the 1x coverage area, you can still connect at a slower speed, but the settings are different.)

The verizon logo doesn't conceal my clock!

[compange]

"The Verizon logo conceals the date display on the main screen and covers over the top portion of the background"

If only people would spent 5 minutes looking at the options on their phone and not bitching. The verizon logo on the sub-screen is actually the name of the network you are on. Go out of area and it says "Extended Network." Their coverage is just so good you never see it. On my Audiovox phone I can turn it off too, and the text on the screen.

Menu->Settings->System->ERI Banner. Turn it off. No more "advertising."

Change the "greeting" message and yours too can say "Yes Sir?" or even nothing at all!

Thanks for playing. You failed.

Re:The verizon logo doesn't conceal my clock!

[phoric]

This does not apply to the phone model featured in my post.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Beware, the process isn't entirely correct

[flibbidyfloo]

I followed this exact tutorial on AfterDawn.com, and it sort of worked. But the hex wasn't all the same, and editing the EA bit (it wasn't E2 on mine) resulted in my phone being identified as a v265m instead of a v710m.

Now I can transfer photos off, and midi ringtones on. But I can't get MP3s to play on it. Weird.

Sheesh...

[coyote4til7]

Some really twits posting in the comments over there. Bad enough I actually defended C. Taco. I'm assuming even Taco wouldn't be that rude...

So true (about the ringing ringtone)

[PotatoHead]

I recorded my old bell telephone for a ring tone. I get more requests for that than anything else media related.

And I don't honor a single one because it's my tone dammit, get your own tone.

it's all because...

[whizack]

Verizon is one of the only providers that cripples their bluetooth featured phones because they: want you to buy a mobile office kit! sad but true, alot of people that are mad that their phones dont support simple features like OBEX and DUN. (look at the new moto e815 ev-do phone) simple business rule: why give people the ability to do something you offer at a high premium for free when you control the medium it's given to the customer on?

Can somebody please explain this...

[cjsnell]

I spent about 20 minutes poking around on Google and have come to the conclusion that most of the unlocking and modding tools for cell phones are very hard to find. My searching turned up, for the most part, people in Russia trying to sell collections of cell phone hacking utils.

So, what's the deal? Are these tools illegal to possess and that's why they are hard to find? Or, is it simply a matter of too much demand and too little bandwidth?

Ripoff / Words of Warning

[everphilski]

His information isn't his. He ripped it from various forums like howardforums.com. I applied this method to my phone back in.... april. He should have at least acknowleged the source he got it from (the only links he provides are to places to get *software*).
Second off be careful: I would suggest researching this on Howardforums or another reputable cell site before doing it. See the process is derived from the v710 hack, and you want to make sure you are applying the right hack to your phone lest you break your phone. Messing up the seem is bad.
I've had my v265 for 4 months now: crippled or not I'm very happy with it. With a transfer cable I get all the functionality I could want out of it. Verizon's coverage area is superior to any of their competitiors as is their pricing.
-everphilski-

Re:Ripoff / Words of Warning

[phoric]

You obviously didn't actually read the post. I specifically said I wasn't providing any software links, and I mentioned my main sources, such as the forums at cellphonehacks.com, multiple times in the article.

Re:Ripoff / Words of Warning

[everphilski]

You said once, and I quote:
I assembled the correct tools and information by using a combination of the above.
You didn't give credit to the original authors of the hack. You mention a forum, Google and filesharing clients. I mean come on man. First of all this "news" is six months old, anyone with google could have figured it out, and then you don't even bother to give credit where credit is due.
Lame.
-everphilski-

Re:Ripoff / Words of Warning

[phoric]

Cellphonehacks is mentioned twice, and again in the comments. In any case, your argument is still irrelevant, as the original authors suggested freely sharing the information with others, which is the nature of such communities -- free use of information. I don't see you sharing, only flaming the people that make it available to others. Based on the number of positive comments, there were plenty of v265 owners out there that appreciated the post and had never thought this was possible. You, sir, are the lame one.

Re:So how much $$$ are YOU contributing?

[zymano]

I would buy one !

If the antenna isn't too huge , maybe put one up in the back yard or on the damn roof.

How you like them apples!

I have gotten rid of verizon for the same reason

[karlk79]

Hell crippled phones is why is switched from verizon. I am now with alltel as of today and couldnt be happier wwith my non crippled phone Nokia 6255i

Re:Low cost public WiFi phones ?

[Mr2001]

WiFi isn't designed to work while you're in motion, and handoffs between access points aren't nearly as seamless as handoffs from one cell tower to the next. You might be able to use such a phone while you're standing in one place, but forget about keeping a call connected while you're moving in a a car, bus, or train.

Re:Heh

[mrchaotica]

Reading his post, I figured he was talking about their computers. For example, the iBooks are arbitrarily crippled compared to the Powerbooks in several ways: they can't stretch the display across an external monitor (only mirror), and they can't run closed. Both of these are software-only limitations (except for a slight risk of overheating when closed).

Incidentally, I found this out the hard way when I bought an iBook. Taken along with the difference in specs, the extra price of a Powerbook would have been worth it...

V300

[karthik_r085]

This is nothing new. I bough my V300 a year back. I used the same tools, and I was able to transfer files/applications.

Why not bring your own phone?

[gladmac]

I've heard this debate on crippling US carriers long enough. Being a european I was really surprised that Verizon did NOT give you the alternative of bringing your own phone. What? Here I come, phone in hand, willing to pay them for letting me call through their network. And they deny??

Do all US operators do this? I have a competent SonyEricsson P910i that I'll bring to California for a year's worth of studies, and I will be looking for a carrier that accepts me.

Re:Why not bring your own phone?

[Alioth]

If you buy a GSM phone, the US GSM operators are very happy to have you.

Do they tell you up front what the phone cant do?

[jonwil]

If not, thats false and misleading advertising.
Although I dont know if thats illegal in america (I know its illegal here in australia)

The only thing to do in a situation like this

[pklong]

The only thing to do in a situation like this is to use another company to provide your cell phone service. If everyone who cared did, they would soon change their minds. Its all about the bottom line.

More Motorola Hacks

[wehe]

See Repair4MobilePhone for more Motorola Mobile (Cell) Phone Hacks (as well as modding and repair instructions for other brands, too).

Re:The natural thing

[VidEdit]

"Er, no, the natural thing to do is not to buy intentionally crippled devices."

That would be a great idea if you could actually do it. Unfortunately, the national cell phone providers all cripple their phones to some degree. Only new laws will help to adjust this anti competitive behavior. The first law should be state laws banning year long service contracts. Cell phones would cost more but users would be more likely to switch carriers when the service is poor and make the carriers really compete. Yes, phones would "cost" more upfront, but you are paying that cost right now as higher prices in your cell phone bill anyway.

oh btw this is illegal

[sucati]

"You should be able to find what you need by searching Google, P2P networks like Kazaa or eMule"

Fyi, the PST software is proprietary Motorola and is not free by any definition and I don't think a consumer could even legally buy it.

deedadoodaa deedadoodaa

[Animaether]

deedadoodaa-DEEEEEEE

- This f'ing annoying ringtone brought to you by Nokia

doo-doo-doo-da-dum... doo-doo-doo-da-dum... doo-doo-doo-da-dum...
- THIS f'ing annoying ringtone brought to you by T-Mobile

Want me to go on ?

My Ringtone is set to the theme of "I Dream of Jeannie" in midi format. And I, for one, welcome my free choice of ringtone - especially since I'll know it's -my- phone that's ringing.
That said.. it's set to vibrate first for up to 5 seconds, then ring. So it's a rare occurance that you'd even get to the first notes of the ringtone.

Not Just Verizon

[lcreech]

Motorola cripples their other phones (like the Razr) for Cingular and others. My 2 year old Siemens S56 can do more that that phone.

Actually informative, but...

[screwthemoderators]

I think that the poster isn't really angry, and shouldn't be. I think its a little joke, pretending outrage when its really curiousity and a bit of showing off, that motivated him to do this. Get it? Its perfectly within Verizon's rights to sell the product anyway they see fit. It seems to me that the opportunity to do a workable hack is a joyful one. It gives some people a thrill He's not really angry, but he's motivated to do some old-fashioned hacking!

Sweet! Where did you find it?

[BLKMGK]

Finding a ringtone of a PHONE is indeed a PITA! :-( My phone also didn't have a ring AND vibe option for some reason and I actually had to hack it to get it (Cingular Razr). So far other than the default mostly crappy phone rings which I'm not a huge fan of I've got "Kung Fu Fighting" on there but no way in hell am I actually ever going to let it ring that way - it was a test I swear!

So, where in the heck did you actually manage to find a decent ring, do they have others, and was it free? Searches only turn up sites that will DL tones to your phone and I will NOT pay by the KB so I need an MP3 if possible.

Re:Sweet! Where did you find it?

[hahiss]

Ah, someone who knows my pain!

I worry about slashdotting the site, but the secret I found was NOT searching for ringtones. (Strangely enough.) I searched for ``old fashioned telephone" (maybe with `ring') and found a website that specializes in free sounds for powerpoint presentations. The ring I got is high quality, and is the european style "ring-ring. . . ring-ring" tone with old fashioned bells.

The url is:

http://www.presentationhelper.co.uk/powerpoint_sou nd_clips.htm

And don't be afraid to rock ``Kung Fu Fighting"; those cats are fast as lightning, after all.

ack it!

[BLKMGK]

You do realize that the V710 is one of the more hacked phones around right? Do some searching, get a copy of the Motorola Phone Tools software and data cable, get some of the freely available tools, and HACK IT! There are WEB boards, there are How-To pages, there is free software, there are LOTS of resources for that phone! Stop whining and do something about it if you don't like it. If I were at home I'd give you a list of links, the resources aren't hard to find...

Re:ack it!

[Darby]

Here is Motorola's developer site. I doubt that they have info on hacking the V710 to open it up, but they do have lots of tools for programming for their phones.

Re:ack it!

[BLKMGK]

Heh, that will teach me not to proofread the title!

If you hunt on the 'net you will find an old copy of the Motorola Phone tools that can be updated, the Motorola Technician's tools, and a TON of other tools (some in foreign character sets) that will allow you to move files, backup firmware\SEEMS, and modify TONS of options. A previous post likened some of this stuff to hacking the Registry and that is NOT far off. Many changes are simply flipping switches that were left turned off, ni some few cases you may be adding functionality with a firmware change. For instance my silver Razr doesn't have video capability but the later black model does - swapping firmware (pretty sure this is needed) and flipping switches will give my phone those capabilities. I couldn't find an option to ring and vibe on my phone but after poking around in the "registry" of options I now have it working just fine on my phone.

There's lots of info out there and the community seems to be nearly as quirky as the overclocking communities. where else can you find guys who sign their messages with phone type and firmware mods?! (lol) It's all good if you just look, I seem to recall there's evena forum dedicated JUST to the V710 Motorola so look for it...

Re:Low cost public WiFi phones ?

[glesga_kiss]

All it takes is for someone to port Skype or the like to [choose your phone OS], for phones with WiFi or BlueTooth.

Em, when was the last time you checked their download page? It's been out for phones for quite some time! And yes, it works over BT/WiFi.

Linux Software

[Xtravar]

And for those who want to do this stuff in Linux, look into http://moto4lin.sf.net/

The author is also making a library called libp2kmoto in case you want to do it without KDE junk installed. It's available for download here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/moto4lin

I've been actually working on my own program based off his work and a few other sources (Yes, I plan on releasing it once I actually make it usable). If you're a true geek and you've got a Motorola phone, I highly recommend having fun learning the p2k protocol.

Nokia's

[solomonrex]

I've never had problems with my Nokias, even the old ones laying around in my basement for a couple of years. They are solid, the brick design usually means longer battery life and they're incredibly durable. But no one wants a brick design anymore. After the problems I had with my last Sony/ericsson, I was going to insist on Nokia again, but VZ only offers one lame Nokia and like 3,000 gray flip phones.

I found a blue flip phone at Radio Shack so at least I won't accidentally pick up my friend's or family's gray phones.

I don't understand why Verizon is still CDMA. I can't believe I have to re-enter my phone numbers everytime.

Re:Nokia's

[drew]

But no one wants a brick design anymore... VZ only offers one lame Nokia and like 3,000 gray flip phones.

Funny- when I signed up for Cingular, I had the opposite problem. They offered so many different Nokia and Sony/Ericsson brick phones, I was starting to wonder if anyone still made any decent flip phones. I ended up with a Sony/Ericsson, and hated every second of it. I'm now back to a decent (if quite minimalist) Samsung flip phone.

I don't understand why Verizon is still CDMA. I can't believe I have to re-enter my phone numbers everytime.

Because they spent millions of dollars building a CDMA network? Besides, the US GSM carriers have destroyed virtually every theoretical advantage of a GSM phone.

Cheap c-phones

[sxmjmae]

Being that the compnay I work for supplies us with a cell phone it is the cheapest one they can find.

The first phone I used had a IR port on it. I could sink my email address book to the phone's address book. Worked like a charm.

The second phone I use had no IR port and the only way to transfer the phone book was to pay the cell phone provider. I would upload the address book to them and they would send it to my phone for a small fee per phone number. Luckly one of techs made a data transfer cable out of some old wires and duck tape - which worked well enough to transfer over the phone list at least once.

Why to the phone companys like to nickle and dime you death. Why to the cell phone manufactures put out phones will less good features and more poof. I really liked the IR port idea and thought it would be a great way to transfer songs, images, address books, connect the internet via a dial up service, etc to and from the phone. Must have been too good of a idea and the cell phone providers did not make enough money!

From TFA:

[gotroot801]

Unfortunately, Verizon cripples their phones so that you have to use their fee-based service (profit!) in order to add new ringtones

Bull.

If you have MMS enabled you can e-mail MIDI files to your phone (tendigitphonenumber@vzwpix.com). Granted, it costs you 25 cents for every MMS message (small profit!), but I was able to send myself nine ringtones per message.

If you want to do MP3s, make sure they're 64 kBits, 24 kHz, Joint Stereo, and renamed to .MID as opposed to .MP3. E-mail as above.

All this and you don't have to potentially violate your Verizon TOS!

Re:From TFA:

[spxero]

You are doing EXACTLY what they want you to- granted you got your 9 songs, but you still paid them money when you shouldn't have to.

Long Before That

[aardwolf64]

Long before that... Intel built chips with the math coprocessor disabled so they could justify lowering the price to compete with AMD and Cyrix. The CPUs with built-in math coprocessors that were disabled at the factory were called the 486 SX chips.

Re:Long Before That

[bhtooefr]

I knew about that, but I was providing examples of chips specifically made for the budget line. The 486SX was a broken 486DX. The Mendocino Celeron was NOT a broken Pentium II.

Not the first time...

[aardwolf64]

Intel disabled a functional math coprocessor on their 486 chips and lowered the price to compete with AMD and Cyrix on the low end CPU market. They called it the 486 SX.

Bite me

[phorm]

when you're in a business meeting or I hear your stupid 50-Cent ringtone from across the office ten times a day

Agreed. When one is in a business meeting or public/quiet place, the phone should be in etiquette (quiet) mode

I think you're a f***ing pretentious tool

Different strokes for different folks. You don't think that looking down on other people because of their cellphone is a bit pretenious?

In fact, the same thing goes if you have those stupid "cell phone covers/faces". Not to mention, if you're one of those assholes with the stupid wallpaper on their cell "desktop".

Some people find anything not normal offensive. Do you have a closet full of white dress shirts and beige slacks, perchance?

all phones should be crippled to not allow customized ringtones, period - except for a handful of pre-selected ones.

Most of my friends have a similar phone to mine, having an original ringtone ensures that I know when it's *my* phone ringing... I do try to choose not-too-loud/inoffensive ones.

I do tend to find 50-cent ringtones blasting at full volume annoying, but an editorialized comment replete with profanity and pointless whining IMHO is much worse...

StarTAC 7868W had its own problems

[danielsfca2]

i've gotta say I disagree on the 7868W. That was my first cell phone and when I upgraded it to a Moto t720c back in the day I realized how terribly inadequate it was for so many tasks. Having a "dialog box" come up when you receive SMS seems to me to be natural. With the StarTAC, you have to hit the "envelope key," arrow down to "Inbox" with the side keys, arrow left and right to see the messages. On any phone made since then, you hit one soft key and it shows you the damn SMS. Even my dad can read an SMS with his t730 (I just switched him from his StarTAC last month). With the StarTAC it would take a "normal person" a week of classes to learn how to send/receive SMS.

Another example: My friends' Samsung and my LG VX7000 supports speed-dialing every number in it by just holding down the last key: [8][hold 6] calls speed dial #86. The StarTAC could have done this too, but the designer of the interface chose not to (actually, NO motorola I've used can do more than speed dials 1-9).

There really is some benefit to the newer phones, not that all their "features" are desirable.

I'm with you though, that long boot times are unacceptable--my t720c was terrible with that, so are the Samsungs. But my vx7000 is within my tolerance. Not much longer than the StarTAC.

Re:Low cost public WiFi phones ?

[m0ng0l]

Quite a while ago? ;-)

Now if I had a PocketPC / Windows Mobile device....

I wish I could

[lorcha]

but I researched every other national cell provider and all had inferior service. If I can't use my phone in the middle of nowhere, then it's worthless for me.

So I'm stuck with Verizon.