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U.S. House Votes to Extend Patriot Act
Rick Zeman writes "In the wake of today's 4 dud bombings in London, the U.S. House has voted to extend the Patriot Act by a vote of 257-171. This includes 10-year extensions to the two other provisions set to expire on December 31, one allowing roving wiretaps, and another allowing searches of library and medical records."
Gotta love the excuses that cost us our freedoms...
Maybe the terrorists have already won.
The Dem's sound bite on this is that they support the extension, but they have some "concerns" about civil liberties. Gee, thanks a shitload for giving us absolutely nowhere to turn to for sanity in this country. I apologize to the few honest politicians left out there for saying that the entire system is fucked.
They're also trying to make hay by criticizing the war in Iraq. But where the fuck were they before we, for the first time in history, started a war where none already existed?
Fuck you, Bill Clinton, for demeaning the office of President in such a way that infinitely corrupt GW could trick a bunch of right wing zealots to vote for him despite the pain he has caused.
"The terrorists will never succeed in taking away our freedoms and civil liberties!"
Well, technically, they're using our own politicians to accomplish that, if that is indeed their goal. Now that is a feat: getting your enemy to obtain your goal for you.
Yes, the house voted to extend it, but it still has to make it through the senate, which will be an interesting process.
I'm just interested in seeing how quickly the conspiracy theorist start spewing stories about how the U.S. was involved in this because only the detonators went off.
Get a free Ipod!
To cheers and thunderous applause.
RTFA again for the best results.
Why not?
/hates politics and stupid people with no priorities or ability to think for themselves.
If there is a terrorist bombing, we get money back (taxes).
Hold lawmakers accountable, so they create laws specifically for the purpose of prevention, not so they can brag about baseless legislation.
Americans know to look for a guarantee or a warranty on things... why do we hold manufacturers to these standards, but not self absorbed politicians.
I say we need a money back guarantee. If this fails in the next 10 years, we get refunded tax money.
If Apple can get attacked legally for iPod batteries that eventually don't hold their charge (because that's so serious), why not hold politicians in that type of arrangement?
Are iPod batteries more valued than safety?
"the US House has voted to extend the Patriot Act"
If I'm reading the article right, I'd say "extend" isn't quite strong enough of a word:
From the article: "The bulk of the back-and-forth centered on language making permanent 14 of 16 provisions that had four-year sunset provisions under the original law..."
I have to strongly agree with the critics mentioned in the article, who "said the sunsets were wisely inserted amid the inflamed passions following the September 11 attacks, and should be retained to assess the long-term impact of the law."
Guess the House didn't think so.
It stops being a conspiracy theory when all you have are facts.
http://rense.com/Datapages/londonbmb.htm
Patriot Act coming up for revote
England losing support to stay in Iraq
New need to fuel the fight against 'those terrorists'
London just got the olympic bid
The g8 summit.
The orwellian "we can't define the enemy, so we can't define the victory, so we'll just keep an ongoing war against a mythical enemy" syndrome
The list goes on
posted anonymously, because my karma can't take any more hits from those that censor anything that would shatter their world view.
The London attacks will bring PATRIOT style legislation to Europe. We're talking mandatory data retention, search warrants without probable cause, and confiscations without the need to inform the suspect. In Sweden there is talk about breaking down the barrier between law enforcement and the military. In Italy they're talking about allowing interrogation without a laywer present. All the stuff we wouldn't normally accept. The bombs may have struck London, but their effect will soon be known to everyone in the EU.
They'll use it to their advantage. 1) The London attacks did not happen on US soil. Therefore the measures taken MUST HAVE WORKED ("this rock keeps tigers away"). 2) Conveniently, the war on terror will never be over. Therefore we should extend the patriot act for as long as damn well possible.
I could not agree more. This is one documentary that everyone should see.
It's a pretty comprehensive look at the history and motivations BEHIND the threats we are facing, from both the terrorists and the American government. Yes, at times it's not even trying to be objective, but still a lot of the events and facts that are presented are historical record and are considered far too little today.
If only this was shown in American prime-time, people may start thinking more critically about the moves we are taking now...
I still shiver now when I hear the song "Baby it's cold outside".
What post? The one you're carrying inside your rusty innards!
if it were only going to be used against people
who were trying to try to blow things up.
The problem is it's going to end up being used
against grandmothers with glaucoma and kids
with a few dime bags.
It's like the RICO act, meant to be used against
racketeers but just try to get your car back if
you drive down the wrong street at the wrong time.
The war on drugs has turned our government into
paternalistic assholes and changed cops from
helpful servants into self-righteous bastards
who see a criminal in every face.
We set ourselves up for this.
Where better for a guilty, nervous would-be bomber
to hide that among a population filled with guilty,
nervous drug users?
Wake up.
Tell your congressmen to repeal drug laws because they
only fuel organized crime, camouflage the real danger
among us and make those who would do us harm safer
by diverting funds and manpower from hunting bombers
down like animals to locking up teenage girls because
they were caught with a joint.
loyalty above all, save honor
The sad thing is, I don't see how losing privacy is ANYWHERE defined by the ideals of republicans. I simply don't understand how so many people are so stupid in beliving that this will help, let alone rally behind it and its 'republican' adgenda. If someone could explain how this works in being a republican, please tell me.
...by someone posting this Star Wars quote in every single Slashdot article involving civil liberties lately.
When the first Patriot Act passed I knew the government was lying when they said they would not extend it past it's deadline. I understand during a time of war it has been necessary in the past to put a lockdown on certain freedoms, but aren't we not at war anymore? I've watched our freedoms being raped from us every single day for the extent of my life any the only reason behind it is so that the government makes some cash. Luckily we're still able to talk about the way we see things on sites like this, but I wonder how long that will last?
[ brakken ]
Before he was elected, Clinton was actually quoted as saying that he believed Hitler was Jesus.
Mod me up please, this post with its fake quote is about as insightful as the parent. Fair is fair.
Bills like this should not even be discussed in our country. There is no reason to calm down.
It is offensive that laws like the PATRIOT act are even discussed in this country, let alone passed the first time.
People act as if having any of these provisions striken is a victory. The fact that secret trials, the seizure of library and medical records, and roving wiretaps are even discussed in this country should offend you.
Mod parent down, "-1 liberal liar". That goes for 90% of the posts on this topic.
0 ,-5158572,00.html
"After measured deliberation and a public debate, the House has again provided the brave men and women of law enforcement with critical tools in their efforts to combat terrorism and protect the American people"
SOURCE: http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,128
Care to post your source? As if you had one.
Yup, there's nothing like an armed revolt to ensure freedom and democracy.... not.
Most likely a serious violent revolt would end up with the installation of a dictator and martial law... no matter which side 'won'.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
"I don't want to hear your wild insane "Bush can knock down my door without a warrant" theories, I want to know how YOU have been negatively effected by the patriot act."
My money is funding it.
I can't tell you that. To do so would be a violation of the Patriot Act and I could be imprisoned as a terrorist sympathizer, indefinitely without trial. If fact my mentioning this may already be a violation.
Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
Once government has taken a power from the people it is never returned except by force. Any government that attempts to restrain the people inevitably fails.
Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
You claim that it's "BS" that the patriot act will only be used on/against terrorists. I've been hearing this for years, so where are all the cases of abuses? I don't see any. Care to point some out, or are you making a tinfoil argument?
Despite what the media wants you to believe, we are winning the hearts and minds of the people in Iraq and we are WINNING the war. The root cause of Islamic hatred toward America and the west is our success and our rejection if Islam. We can remedy this in two ways, by killing or capturing all Islamic terrorists or by converting to Islam. The terrorists know that if they lose in Iraq then it's all over for them, that's why foreign terrorists from all over the middle east are pouring into Iraq. This is the terrorists' last stand and we will prevail.
Fortunantly we have a president now who couldn't care less what the American left and the American media say about him. They can keep calling him Hitler day and night, they can yell at him until they are blue in the face just like they did to Reagan. Bush has convictions - he knows he's doing the right thing, it doesn't matter to him one bit what vocal fringe lunatics think.
No, you are not in Russia. You are in Honecker's East Germany, where all citizens are spying on each other, people are detained without trial and dissenters get shot, well, one more step to go...
Oh well, what the hell...
How has the 'Patriot' act affected me? It has affected me because I am not willing to wait for someone to declare Martial Law before I decide that my rights are being screwed over now.
The GOP died decades ago, enjoy your neo-"conservative" agendas and lack of ability to handle finances.
I guess no one found it odd that a terrorist attack occured in London THE SAME FREAKING DAY the united states has a session on extending the patriot act?
They essentially now live with more freedoms than us in their own homeland.
That same question could have been asked to citizens of the Stalinist Soviet Union or Nazi Germany for that matter, and you'd have virtually the same stats. Effected 1%, not effected 99%. Actually, in Stalinist Russia and Nazi Germany many people received financial windfalls through promotions, or firesales for the victims. Keep your rhetorical flamebait to yourself loser.
If only this was shown in American prime-time, people may start thinking more critically about the moves we are taking now...
It's quite depressing really. That documentary was shown in the UK almost a year ago. It has made the rounds in prime time slots all over the world - it was showing here in Canada several months ago. And for all that, the one country where it probably most needs to be seen is where it isn't getting any significant play.
If you can't download whole documentaries, you can start this article on Al Qaeda by Jason Burke who featured in the documentary. It will give you an idea of at least some of the background and misperceptions of the "global terror network", or lack thereof, that we are facing.
Jedidiah.
Craft Beer Programming T-shirts
my tax dollars pay for it, dumbass.
jesus christ, seriously: if you don't care about liberty and freedom, if you honestly think the patriot act is a good idea, why the fuck are you living in this country? remember that quote about "and when they came for me, there was no one left to defend me"? no, didn't think so. those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it, retard. shit.
I live in the UK and we're getting the same things happening to us as the US is getting, doesn't it just make you want to walk up to Bush/Blaire and go
"Oi idiot, Terrorism is already illegal, you can make all the laws you like, but you're not going to stop some nutter slapping bombs to his chest and blowing himself and anyone else near up".
Most suicide bombers are prepared to die, if they kill 1 or 100 guys. They'll blow themselvs up at the slightest chance of them being caught, so why the hell do they think this does anything but endanger police and security officers?
I like muppets.
Can I tell the cops that when they arrest me in my home for smoking some pot? No? I guess I'm a terrorist too....
Open Source Sushi
Well it certainly sounds like they have some pretty hard evidence, so why don't they try him?
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
If we were winning the war, then the number of suicide bombers in Baghdad would be decreasing rather than increasing. As I said, this is turning into another Vietnam which will again demonstrate that technology CANNOT defeat an enemy who has the power of his convictions. We lost ~60000 men in Vietnam, the Vietcong lost more than 2 million - yet we left in shame.
You didn't read anything I wrote, did you? Osama bin Laden has called for and gotten Jihad against America because American soldiers are stationed in Saudi Arabia, home of Mecca. HE FRACKING SAYS SO. If America withdraws it's forces from Saudi Arabia, he'll end the Jihad!!! But as I said, we won't do that for obvious reasons. Furthermore, if rejecting Islam was the reason that Osama hates us, then shouldn't he also be waging war on China?
Kill or capture all Islamic terrorists? Sure - just like each retaliatory strike by Israel against Hamas prevents violence rather than inciting more of it. Converting to Islam? Simply not going to happen. Removing our troops from the Holy Land of Mecca just like Osama wants? Not going to happen either. If it weren't for oil, we wouldn't give a flying damn about the middle east. Either we prop up corrupt dictatorships for oil and have to live with terrorists or we stop sucking the oil tit. It's obvious which we're choosing.
Bush is doing the 'right thing?' Was he doing the right thing when he 'fixed the facts around the policy' of war with Iraq? When he failed to fire Rove and Libby for exposing Valery Plame becasue her husband exposed his lie about the Niger yellowcake? When he entered Iraq with no plan to exit? Don't delude yourself - Bush didn't invade Iraq because Saddam is a nasty meanie person. He invaded Iraq because Iraq has 1/4 of the world's oil reserves, and his advisors would rather enrich their former employers than invest 200 billion dollars in alternative energy.
did you miss the part about the "vocal fringe lunatics" being 49% of this country? Bush was elected on a very narrow margin Dr. Troll and there are a lot of us who don't believe in his policies.
"The root cause of Islamic hatred toward America and the west is our success and our rejection if Islam"
Bullshit, it's fringe religious nuts who hate the west. Most Moslems don't, don't support terrorism, and are good, normal people. Interestingly, the beliefs of the fringe groups that fund the terrorism have a great deal in common with the right wing christian ultra-conservatives in this country (including both hating freedom and those who disagree with them).
Bush has convictions - he knows he's doing the right thing
That's the worst part, the inability of the right wing nuts who control this country to deffirentiate between "the right thing" and "our beliefs". Bush beleives that he is Right and refuses to ever admit that he is wrong. This is not a strength but a terrible weakness. There is no shame in being wrong once in a while, there is shame in convering the fact up to avoid embarassment.
"goodbye and hello, as always" ~Prince Corwin, from Zelazny's Amber series
First they came for the Jews and no one protested.
Then they came for the Gypsies.
Then they came for the Communists and no one protested.
Then they came for the Catholics and no one protested.
Then they came for me, and there was No One Left to protest.
-- Martin Niemoeller
All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream.
(quick, who is occupying PAKISTAN?)
America's tentacles are already all over Pakistan. Setting up Musharaf as the next Saddam.
Difference is Musharraf already has home grown WMDs and had his own people selling nuclear secrets, or was that your point ?
I mean, c'mon, it's pretty ridiculous that wiretaps requests wouldn't be for a person instead of a specific line. When the police ask a judge for a search warrant, do they have to obtain separate warrants for every room and dresser? No, they ask to search the premises of the person being investigated. Criminal investigations are aimed at people, and it only makes sense to have wiretap requests aimed at the people being investigated.
There has to be a balance between individual freedoms and societal needs. Screaming and hollering about every little step taken in the opposite direction from individual freedoms, no matter if it's justified or not, doesn't help you or the cause of protecting freedom. It just marginalizes you and people with similar views in the eyes of the mainstream, instead of convincing them with rational, thoughtful discussion. Look at the "gun nuts", like the NRA. Even though they have a good overall point in protecting the 2nd Amendment, the fact that they will not even discuss or consider even intelligent or rational gun control steps makes the mainstream look at all 2nd Amendment defenders as fanatics and gun-crazy sociopathic idiots.
Light a fire for a man and he'll be warm for a day. Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Oh yeah, IT HASN'T. Unless your name is Habib and you wear a turbin to work then nobody gives a fvck what you do. I also know that if 9/11 occurred during the presidency of a Democrat you'd be STFUing right about now, you wouldn't even see 100000 crap articles like this on slashdot.
People named Habib who wear turbans to work deserve the same rights under the Constitution as those named Steve. By denying them that right, we are violating the fundamental principles of our society; of MY society. The laws and principles of MY country are being violated, and my fellow citizens (many of whom are named Habib) being denied their rights as citizens.
That anyone in DC even gives such a concept consideration is apauling and offensive.
As for a Democratic president, there were terrorist attacks under the last Democrat. The Bill of Rights was not violated under him the way it is being now. Instead, we had an impeachment hearing about a blow job.
You're right. Under a Democrat, we'd not be having this discussion. We'd be paying attention to a fake scandal cooked up by political hacks in order to cripple him. Welcome to Modern America.
--GrouchoMarx
Card-carrying member of the EFF, FSF, and ACLU. Are you?
Who wants to make a bet that they'll just keep on turning up the heat in this pot of water we're all sitting in? Er, what's that? It's already boiling?!
So let's jump out already. Seriously, we're being cooked alive.
Really? When?
Name one single example after 9/11 where letters such as what you describe (and not accompanied by a check for $100,000) have made a real difference in the fight against a bill whose purpose was to give the federal government more power or to satisfy the desires of large corporations (in other words, a bill that the "representatives" want to pass despite the wishes of the people).
Bet you can't.
Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
very good comrade! although your newspeak is a bit disturbing.
please report to the ministry of truth for re-education.
Oh and remember there will be an additional gas ration card for anyone that turns in a suspected terrorist this month.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
As the ratio of people per square mile increases, the rights of that population decreases. It is a harsh reality. The Dutch, the Swiss and the Russians might disagree here.
alleged means someone says he did it, but no-ones offered any proof of that. It they had any proof, they would have pressed charges. Instead, all they have is circumstantial evidence. You obviously have access to a computer and Internet connection. And everybody knows that the most common material on line is pornography, sometimes with children. Does this make you a pedophile? Not until they find the kiddie-pron on your hard drive.
The fact that he converted to Islam has no bearing - this is a free country. Nor does his marriage to a Saudi have any bearing on the case. And I'll bet you know, and may even be related, to someone who was arrested for some crime. Are you an accessory simply because your friend or relative is a criminal?
I'm not saying the guy is innocent, but the simple fact is that there is no evidence, and no legal (constitutional) right for the government to hold him more than 48 hours without charging him. The constitution and laws were created very specifically to prevent this abuse of power, and the government has apparently decided that it isn't subject to the very laws that give it legitimacy.
Simply put, if the government doesn't abide by the constitution, then the government is not a legal government, and deserves to be overthrown (by voting them out, or by legal action - an armed "revolution" simply isn't going to succeed, nor is it necessary). In fact, it's our duty as American citizens to do this if our government fails to follow it's mandate.
America is based on the principle that the government is given rights by the people, not the people given rights by the government. Civil rights are not given to us by the government - we are born with them and the government has no right to take them away. The American justice system is based on the principle that "its better the guilty go free than the innocent are imprisoned", and "due process" is the procedure that ensures that. The Patriot act is nothing but a way for the government to avoid "due process" and illegally remove civil rights - which apply not only to Americans, but to all people regardless of nationality, race, gender, or religion.
But I guess you slept through Social Studies and American History. While you could probably find all this info with Google, it would be far easier to just go to your local library and brush up on exactly how America is supposed to work. Unless, of course, you're just an "Idiotarian" and incapable of understanding concepts like "Rule of Law", democracy, and the Constitution of the Unites States of America.
I have an idea. Instead of bringing freedom and democracy to the middle east, lets bring it home to the US first.
TommyOpen Source for Open Minds
I find your sig...
...amusingly prophetic.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. -- Goethe"
You can find a summary here: http://www.cbc.ca/passionateeye/powerofnightmares/ one.html
My favorite quote, that pretty much sums up the whole thing: "Senior American civil servants and politicians came to believe their view that the Soviet Union was an evil force against which the U.S. should be presented as a force for good."
The fools! - All Good Liberals (TM) know that the Soviet Union was a great force for Good in the world! 100 percent literacy and free healthcare! 100 percent literacy and free healthcare! 100 percent liter... erm, in any case what is interesting here is how little is new in the world.
While the "Liberals" (aka Socialists) used to carry water for the Soviets in the old days, now they have make do with the brave Mujahedeen. I guess whoever hates The Great Satan the most gets the loyalty of the Libs, no matter what... (Few things gets a Lib going as much as thinking about the poor, innocent Jihadis locked up at Gitmo.)
"Never leave people in peace, because when they are in peace, you are a nobody. They do not need you; your very purpose is not there. They need you when there is danger. Create danger. If there is no real danger, at least create the climate of a false danger."
--Adolf Hitler
What is most telling about this legislation is the timing. Politicians are extremely savvy about when the public is most willing to accept legislation they don't want. The London bombings provide the perfect event for getting Americans in the mood to accept this, and our politicians know it very well. They took advantage of 911 the same way to sell Americans (I was never sold) on the Iraq War. Of course later when then euphoria wears off and the hangover sets in, poll ratings begin to drop. But politicians don't care about poll ratings. They care about grabbing power. That's why we have checks and balances. But now that right-wingers own all 3 branches, checks and balances are playing second fiddle to the biggest power grab from the people since WWII.
Well, as a sitizen of Russia and former sitizen of the USSR, I can point out why too much power in the hands of the government is wrong.
1. Government is inefficient by its nature. Providing it with more tools to search for the terrorist will make it just more ignorant and lasy.
2. Certain people will get lots of power and even if they have good nature in general, they, as most of the people, are going to have there own biases. Then there is a question about who is going to police the police? The more obscure the procedures, the easier it is to abuse them
3. Politicians ARE ALWAYS DIRTY. How many politicians do you think will be interested in using some ready-made system to cover for their mess-ups?
4. The best way to stay in power forever is when the nation is in the state of emergency. It is very easy to create one and maintain the fears, especially when one can hunt for ghosts now and again...
Overall, the way you go now -- is straigt towards the communist-like oppression state. In fact communists, by the nature of the state (brainwashing, huge kgb, tight control over the foreigners, etc.), had probably the best control against the infiltration by the enemies. But still there were secret agents in there working for CIA.
Hitler never said it.
But so what if had? Hitler was a demogogue who might say anything if it would gain him power. To that end, he might just as easily have said something true as something false.
For instance, he's quoted here as saying "There could be no issue between the Church and the State. The Church, as such, has nothing to do with political affairs. On the other hand, the State has nothing to do with the faith or inner organization of the Church."
No doubt Hitler had some ulterior motive for advocating separation of Church and State but simple quoting Hitler would not in any way undermine the concept.
Similarly, America's law makers may have their flaws but they are by no stretch of the imagination like the Nazis or secretly harbour the objectives of the Nazis.
where it probably most needs to be seen is where it isn't getting any significant play.
The american people are just not listening at the moment. Michael Moore's film was widely played and seen in plenty of time for the last election, and it made no difference at all.
If you were to play the (excellent) Power of Nightmares twice on NBC ABC and CBS not one mind would be changed in the US. They actually dont want to hear anything that contradicts their new religion.
The reality is that FOX is the perfect reflection of the american mentality, and the pulpit of this religion, and that evil fountain of poision is what the majority want to hear and what they want to believe.
No documentary will be able to break through this.
ATH0 Bitcoin: 1DnwFLXczVZV8kLJbMYoheUrpqHesjxrSi
I heard the Nazi's also weren't fond of the Bubonic Plague. Stick it to the man! Plague-infested rodents for everyone!
This is different from efficiency. . . this is about the liberation from a monolithic government (England) and the safeguards to prevent such a power from controlling too much in America.
To claim it's a an efficiency enhancer cheapens the original intent and purpose.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
Just because something doesn't affect me doesn't mean it's ok. Your argument isn't valid. People are starving and dying in wars all over the world, but I'm sitting here in my cushy room typing on my computer. Their suffering will probably never reach me, but that doesn't mean it's ok. It's important to preserve freedoms, and even if the patriot act never affects me (why would the government care about some kid they're never heard of?), it still affects other people, and that matters.
Many would argue that whatever further value an operation these fictitious 'endangered operatives' are involved in may have, is outweighed the very fucking ideals that make the USA worth fighting for to begin with. Those ideals are being destroyed with cases like Padilla. And I'm quite sure that the same fascist dipshits who are overlooking all the Bush regime lies, distortions and manipulations that affect the entire nation in the long run, are the same ignorant retards who had a fit when Clinton got a bj.
"Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
Oh please, this is just typical liberal socialist scare mongering.
... What happens then? Well, if the police and DA's office believe you're the one, then they'll put the full weight of their power squarely on your back until you break. Even better, if Patriot II is passed, and you're mistaken for a wrong-doer, you can disappear in the middle of the night and no one will know why. Grand.
:)
Yeah, gonna have to disagree with you there. I've been a staunch Republican all of my voting life, I even voted for GWB twice. But, frankly, the people currently calling themselves Republican are nothing more than "The Tax & Spend Christian Party", imposing their warped, hypocritical and hateful religious agenda on the country and the world. I used to believe that if I wasn't doing anything wrong, I had nothing to fear, but I don't believe it anymore.
You even point it out in your argument Well maybe if you are mistaken for someone who is doing someone wrong, or
They've got control of the House, they've got control of the Senate, they've got the White House. And now, with Sandy D leaving, they'll have the Supreme Court, too. I feel so wrong for voting as I did last year. Oh, well, that's why I'm making plans for Canada next year.
Which is more painful? Going to work or gouging your eye out with a spoon? Find out!
http://www.workorspoon.com
Yes I have, and while it may be useful in some parts it definitely takes away some of our civil liberties, like the right to a trial.
Here's a crazy idea... Come up with a better solution to deal with terrorism in a free and open society
No Patiot Act is just as good as having the Patriot Act when it comes to terrorism. The Patriot Act has done nothing to protect us from terrorists since its inception. In fact, the terrorists from 9/11 should have been caught with the existing infrastructure at the time. There really is no need for The Patriot Act to catch terrorists.
And if you think that the US is no longer a free and open society, remember that in many countries around the world, you would be hunted down, arrested and maybe even executed for expressing the thoughts that you've so thoughtfully shared in this forum
That's irrelevant. If you want to play that game you can tell the Iraqi people that at least they don't live in North Korea. You can tell Cubans that they're lucky because they don't live in Afganistan. Human rights and civil liberties are not relative, they are absolute. We must constantly safe-gaurd them or they WILL slip away a little at a time.
Time makes more converts than reason
Thank You!!
That is the perfect answer.
Some Gobsheen: If you haven't done anything wrong, what do you have to hide?
Me: Because having something to hide is not the only reason to be hiding something.
That will totally confuse them. They will be thinking about that for hours. Seriously I am going to use it. It is the perfect answer.
Pablo
perhaps that can serve as a pithy one liner come back.
I believe it is in the interest of the world that a truly free state develop. I know it is in the interest of the Palestinian people that they can live in a society where they can express their opinion freely, a society where they can educate their children without hate, a society in which they can realize their dreams if they happen to be an entrepreneur. I know it's in Israel's interest that a free state evolve on her border. There's no other way to have a lasting peace, in my judgment, unless we all work to help develop the institutions necessary for a state to emerge: civil society, based upon justice, free speech, free elections, the right for people to express themselves freely.
Yes, freedom is a great idea for other people, isn't it?
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
I have always thought : "If I haven't done anything wrong, leave me the F*CK alone!"
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Some info to hide:
social security number
mobile phone number
credit card numbers
home address
bank account numbers
medical information
private communications with family, coworkers,...
Not from:
law-abiding law enforcement officials for valid reasons related to protecting our country
But from:
corrupt politicians and their strategists
data and identity thieves
people that might sell the info to anyone who pays
If a intelligence officer's role is publicized in order to punish her husband, how much respect would average American citizens get regarding their privacy? If we post a blog message a politician doesn't like, would all our info published anonymously on the internet?
Access to private information of innocent Americans should be justified and there needs to be procedures in place to prevent abuse. If it cannot be justified, then the citizen should be notified so that they can take appropriate legal action against any abuse or misuse of their private information.
Reminds me of this scene from Matt Bracken's novel Enemies Foreign and Domestic , which is a fictional account of how that line-of-thinking would actually work in practice. It's not much of a spoiler to say that the novel is about a terrorist incident staged by government agents so they can expand their powers (since that's obvious in the first chapter). The following scene takes place at an anti-terrorist checkpoint on the highway:
The real fear (which is counter to freedom, I might add), is wondering when the definition of what you are "doing wrong" shifts. With all of these provisions now in place, how easy would it be to deem healthy dissent as a a terrorist activity? Proof of this has already been seen. When will attacks on policy become an attack against America, and our "national interests", whatever they may be?
Freedom is largely a state of mind. While it can be a dangerous one in much of the world, I don't like seeing our country moving in that direction. I would rather live free under threat than safe under fear of oppression. Besides, if the terrorists hate freedom, then why haven't the Netherlands, New Zealand, Switzerland, etc..., countries that are arguably more free than the U.S., not been turned into parking lots by droves of suicide bombers? No, it's our policy and actions, and I don't want to be deemed unpatriotic at best, and a terrorist under prosecution at worst for "attacking" those policies, just as it's supposed to happen in a true, working democracy.
That is my fear, the Patriot Act doesn't help, and it doesn't "feel" free, that's for sure.
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel Boorstin