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Artificial Intelligence for Computer Games

Craig Maloney writes "Artificial Intelligence (AI) is a very hot topic today in computer circles because of the interest in modeling behaviors on machines that we find in nature. Many books have been dedicated to studying and expanding the field of AI, but generally fall into two categories: those that concentrate on AI as a research topic, and those that concentrate on AI in the field of game development. Artificial Intelligence for Computer Games (AI for Computer Games) is unique in how it takes classical AI and merges that knowledge into AI for game development. It's an approach that will be fascinating to those currently studying AI, but the approach limits the usefulness of this book to a select audience of AI researchers interested in game development." Read on for the rest of Maloney's review. Artificial Intelligence for Computer Games author John David Funge pages 127 publisher A K Peters, td. rating 6 reviewer Craig Maloney ISBN 1568812086 summary An introduction to Gaming Artifical Intelligence

AI for Computer Games begins with a brief introduction to the historic roles that AI has played in games such as Pac Man and Mario, and how these Non-Playable Characters (NPCs) achieved fame through their roles as NPCs. The NPCs play important roles in games, and their behavior can ultimately determine if the game is entertaining or frustrating. The author then describes the differences between the field of Artificial Intelligence as compared with Gaming Artificial Intelligence. Later he shows how these two fields can intertwine with each other, and how Gaming Artificial Intelligence can be useful to AI researchers via game-playing robots and other similar experiments. The author also introduces the architecture of the components of a game. They are:
  • Game State: The current state of the world
  • Simulator: Encodes the rules for how the game state changes, and the rules for the game (physics, etc.)
  • Renderer: The display of the game
  • Controllers: The player and NPC methods for interacting with the game.
The book then focuses on simulating a gaming environment for the NPCs and player to operate in. The author uses a game of Tag as the game framework for the rest of the book, with the player and the NPCs playing the classic game of chasing and hiding. The roles of the game state, simulator, renderer and controllers are explored in depth in this section.

Next, AI for Computer Games discusses NPC perception. Players in a gaming environment are hindered by what the renderer will display to them, so likewise, the NPCs should not have omniscience in the game. The author recommends a strategy for handling this for NPCs: use the render engine for determining the perception of the NPCs as well. This allows the players and NPCs to work from the same rules. The author also describes how NPCs can handle partial observability, as well as prediction.

The rest of the book deals with the NPCs' abilities to react, remember, search, and learn to the game environment. This is the heart of the book, and provides a good analysis of the various methods available to the developer to model complex behaviors. The section on learning is especially interesting, as the idea of rewarding the algorithm when it performs correctly seems both strange and obvious at the same time (although the author points out that sometimes the algorithm can do undesirable things in order to obtain that reward). There are many ideas in these sections for perfecting the AI of the game, and the author expertly describes each one and where each would best be used.

AI for Computer Games was both enlightening and frustrating at the same time. The author obviously possesses a lot of knowledge in the AI field; the frustration is in his telling of that knowledge. The book reads much like an academic paper on AI applications in games, and could put off many potential readers with its rather dense descriptions of complicated material. The book also suffers from being rather short. The book is 127 pages in total length with code snippets, diagrams, and other page artwork. The brevity makes the book easy to pick up and read for a bit, but the density ensures you'll be re-reading several chapters in order to catch what the author is trying to convey. The code snippets also suffer from brevity. The code snippets are in C++, but are primarily constructors, with precious few methods defined. The author has excellent ideas; using an environment where the player and the NPCs are equals removes much of the complexity for the example AI to handle. Unfortunately the execution in this book leaves me wanting more.

You can purchase Artificial Intelligence for Computer Games from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

259 comments

  1. Obligatory complaint by thephotoman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why do we always link to just one store? Why not link to a series of various places selling the book for those who are interested?

    Yeah, it's an obligatory complaint. Mod me down for it.

    --
    Haec merda tauri est. Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
    1. Re:Obligatory complaint by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't quite understand the formula:

      1. Post a review on Slashdot
      2. Include a link to B&N with your referral ID
      3. PROFIT!!!

    2. Re:Obligatory complaint by randm.ca · · Score: 1

      So that jackass (can't remember his nick) can say "buy it here for $1 cheaper" and include a link with his referral ID.

    3. Re:Obligatory complaint by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or a search engine with prices for many stores, showing the lowest price.

    4. Re:Obligatory complaint by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Buy it used at Amazon for less.

       
      Or get the O'reilly book on the same subject, since it's better. Also available cheap and used. Just how I like 'em.

    5. Re:Obligatory complaint by Edward+Teach · · Score: 1

      Try copy and paste of the ISBN into google and then have fun.

      --

      Setting his threshold to 5, Sparky eliminated most of the trolls on /.

    6. Re:Obligatory complaint by Surt · · Score: 1

      I assumed slashdot was getting paid for the linking, and that they link to whoever pays them this month?

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    7. Re:Obligatory complaint by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because the submitter can't be bothered researching a dozen places where the book can be found... easier to give one and assume readers can find others if they want?

    8. Re:Obligatory complaint by larry+bagina · · Score: 3, Informative
      According to the book review guidelines...

      Speaking of links, please do not include links in your reviews to online bookstores. Slashdot has an linking arrangement with Barnes & Noble; that's why when bn.com carries a particular book, you'll see a link to it at the bottom of the review.

      PS - "an linking arrangement"?

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    9. Re:Obligatory complaint by plover · · Score: 1
      So install the Book Burro extension for Firefox. Alternately, if you're already running Greasemonkey (which I highly recommend), there's a user scripted version of Book Burro available, too.

      What is Book Burro? It knows about many popular book sites on the web, and does a comparison shop between all of them, offering you a tiny on-screen pop-down way to find the cheapest price.

      But that's if you're cheap, and don't want to support slashdot with your referral dollars. Personally, I like giving referrer dollars to whoever actually deserves them. Perhaps not at double the cost, but I like shopping through sites I frequent whenever possible.

      --
      John
  2. Spore by FnH · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I just finished reading a preview of Spore, a new game from the creator of the sims, and it seems like AI in games is about to take another leap :)

    1. Re:Spore by Mikail · · Score: 1

      You can find a video of this presentation at the GDC Sessions Gallery. I think a free registration is required, but it's worth watching. Spore doesn't seem to be so much about AI as it is player-created content and insane compression algorithms.

      --
      If life is a waste of time and time is a waste of life, let's all get wasted and have the time of our lives.
    2. Re:Spore by gardyloo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I read that preview, and it really does sound neat. However, there were a lot of "..and then suddenly, your village transformed into a city with roads and walls..." type phrases. This disturbs me a bit, as though the game were deciding "well, at this point I can't really make any changes, so things will transition to the 'next step'." That smacks of a lot of predestination, as these "expert systems" usually have. I'm not saying that I could figure out a better way, just that it would be nice if things were such that the transitions were more "real".

    3. Re:Spore by Blublu · · Score: 0, Redundant

      I wonder how long before the world becomes populated by giant walking penises and ridiculusly proportioned "ass monkeys"... *evil grin*

      --
      meh
    4. Re:Spore by Vaevictis666 · · Score: 2, Informative
      It's not so much compression algorithms as it is generation algorithms.

      Spore doesn't store your current type of creature, it stores the parameters used to create (or 'evolve') your creature from scratch, which can indeed be quite small.

  3. Natural stupidity by redelm · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I'm sorry, but I can't help thinking:

    Natural stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time

    You cannot make something idiot-proof because idiots are too ingenious (variable). Unfortunately, I see much of AI as trying to impose order on chaos which cannot be done with deterministic methods. AI _can_ help with data reduction, but not understanding.

    1. Re:Natural stupidity by Nos. · · Score: 1

      What was it Einstein said...
      There are only two things that are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity, and I'm not so sure about the universe
      I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm way off on that.

      What you say is so unbelievably true, and so hard for so many people to understand. Look at any piece of software that has been distributed, and I can pretty much guarantee that it has been used, or had data entered into it, in a way that the designers and programmers never intended. The AI required to handle what amounts to an infinite data set, is not something I see becoming a reality any time soon.

    2. Re:Natural stupidity by coopaq · · Score: 1
      Natural stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time

      Yep. You never see your cpu enemies bunny hopping like little bitches to prone.

      Bunny hopping is so damn stupid that it actually works. Unless rockets are involved ;)

      And BTW: I've tried strafing left and right five feet at 100 miles/hours and it's impossible. I pulled a hammy.

      I would appreciate AI emulating how people actually play.

    3. Re:Natural stupidity by jo42 · · Score: 0, Offtopic
      > Natural stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time

      Yeah, just look at the current resident of the White House...

    4. Re:Natural stupidity by CoffeeJedi · · Score: 2, Interesting

      what if you have a pseudorandom sequence generator with the range of 0-20 (random number generator) attached to the AI

      after making any intelligent weighted decision, the random number is chosen, if the number is 10 (or some arbitrary number in that range) the AI will then disregard the intelligent choice and choose some other descision with a higher weight (this could be random as well) and introduce a bit more unpredictability into the AI, and make them a bit more human, just as humans do random idiotic things sometimes in stressfull situations, sometimes resulting in good results (see: "pulling a Homer")

      --
      May you be touched by His Noodly Appendage. RAmen.
    5. Re:Natural stupidity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well then hopefully the system will classify the user as an idiot by the erratic actions and re-plan accordingly.

    6. Re:Natural stupidity by red990033 · · Score: 1

      I really should copyright A.S.S. - Artificial Stupidity System..

      --
      Do what I say, cuz I said it.
      -Meatwad
    7. Re:Natural stupidity by kin_korn_karn · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the artificial intelligence had to settle for VICE president!

    8. Re:Natural stupidity by redelm · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The quote is indeed Einstein. "The Universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine" [Eddington].

      Pgms have indeed seen strange input. Worse since the invention of cut'n'paste.

      But I don't think AI need handle all input, so long as it fails gracefully when out-of-bounds. I mostly object to ungraceful failure, especially failure disguised-as-success.

    9. Re:Natural stupidity by vaporakula · · Score: 1

      This is a kind of reverse fuzziness, in a way... and yeah, it works. You're taking a well understood set of inputs, and giving a fuzzy set of outputs (hence the reverse bit). If you have a system that piles up all the possible choices into a nice neat line, with the best choice at the front of the line, you introduce stupidity by not choosing at the front of the queue. It's actually pretty easy to make AIs that are too good, too smart. The difficulty comes in making them stupid enough to be fun to play against....

    10. Re:Natural stupidity by The_Wilschon · · Score: 1

      Or how about this: http://www.matr.net/article-9788.html. The researcher essentially set up and trained neural nets, and then simulated the death of various neurons. The net then produced some quite interesting results.

      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
    11. Re:Natural stupidity by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      You mean it has to take a roll against intelligence, D&D style?

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    12. Re:Natural stupidity by king-manic · · Score: 1

      what if you have a pseudorandom sequence generator with the range of 0-20 (random number generator) attached to the AI

      after making any intelligent weighted decision, the random number is chosen, if the number is 10 (or some arbitrary number in that range) the AI will then disregard the intelligent choice and choose some other descision with a higher weight (this could be random as well) and introduce a bit more unpredictability into the AI, and make them a bit more human, just as humans do random idiotic things sometimes in stressfull situations, sometimes resulting in good results (see: "pulling a Homer")


      That won't actually work, people do nto do random idiotic things. They do idiotic things with some rationale. the best you would do with your slight AI addition is simulate someone who is incompetent.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    13. Re:Natural stupidity by mcvos · · Score: 1

      It's easy to make AIs that are too good? Then why doesn't anyone ever do that? Halfway decent AI isn't hard to write (as Brad Wardell, maker of http://www.galciv.com/Galactic Civilizations (a game famous for its AI) likes to point out), but a good player can still slap that kind of AI around. Writing really good AI for games where it matters (strategy games) just doesn't happen. It's too hard, takes too much time, and it's easier to hire an extra graphics guy to make the pictures look nicer. What is possible, is to make an "AI" that reacts too fast. Computers are much fast than us humans, so in any game where reaction time matters (FPS, RTS clickfests), an "AI" may be too quick to be fun to play against. But it's not the intelligence that's the problem there. It's the speed. Personally, I'd appreciate it if makers of strategy games and CRPGs put a bit more effort into AI. Those are the games that really need it and where the computer is still way too stupid. mcv.

    14. Re:Natural stupidity by mcvos · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, I see much of AI as trying to impose order on chaos which cannot be done with deterministic methods. Besides, non-deterministic AI techniques are a lot more fun. And more powerful, because they can find ways to solve the problem that the programmer would never think of. Until game developers learn to take advantage of those non-deterministic methods, preferably with the machine-learning still active while the game is being played, game AI will consist of unfounded heuristics with easily exploited blind spots. mcv.

    15. Re:Natural stupidity by vaporakula · · Score: 1
      What is possible, is to make an "AI" that reacts too fast.

      Agreed, strategy games are a nightmare for AI. But they show also what I mean in this case. "Too good" means an AI that isn't fun to play against... and usually very little actual "I" and too much "A"

      For instance in a strategy game, typical cheats include: not using the Fog of War, not having to use resources in the same way as the player, not having the same control restrictions as the player. So the computer player is always in the right place to fend off an attack, has enough of an army built to do it, and can weild control over the entire map at once. At this point, you have to "dumb down" the AI to make it playable...

      Sure, it's not really AI at that stage... but the definition is pretty fast and loose in games anyways.

    16. Re:Natural stupidity by mcvos · · Score: 1

      That's true. In many strategy games, in order to give the AI a fighting chance, it gets advantages that the player doesn't. In some it's more extreme than in others, but a level playing field is very rare.

      The AI is not too smart, though. It's just cheating or playing a different game entirely. On a level or almost-level playing field in a turn-based strategy game with fog of war and that sort of stuff, no AI can possibly beat a good human player. And I wish it could.

      mcv.

    17. Re:Natural stupidity by stonecypher · · Score: 1

      Result rejection was first employed in simulated agent behavior in 1968. Good to see the armchair quarterbacks are making well-informed suggestions.

      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
    18. Re:Natural stupidity by CoffeeJedi · · Score: 1

      no need to be jerk about it, i had one little bit of AI back in computational theory when i was a freshman (a 100 level gateway course for the CS program)
      i just didn't choose an AI track of study

      --
      May you be touched by His Noodly Appendage. RAmen.
  4. Ummm.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    AI has been a hot topic for, what, the past 40 years?

    1. Re:Ummm.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least the last ten years - ever since someone decided to stop calling them expert systems, which is what they truly are - and all they ever will be. AI sound cooler so they subverted it.

      The current on/off technology will NEVER support the true definition of artificial intelligence. Keep in mind the computer STILL can't generate a TRULY random number.

  5. Employment of AI vs CS grads in game design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So how many of the people out there who are designing game AI have a typical CS background and how many have been specifically trained in AI principles through their education? Along the same track, is someone interested in studying AI more likely to be employed by a game publisher when they graduate or by an actual organization doing AI work for some other application?

    1. Re:Employment of AI vs CS grads in game design by mikael · · Score: 1

      You don't need a degree to study AI, although all the standard software and hardware courses do help structure your code and understand about working in teams.

      AI is probably the largest area of shortages for game programmers in the UK.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    2. Re:Employment of AI vs CS grads in game design by vaporakula · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'm an AI Designer for a major developer / publisher...

      I have a background in CS, but I'm not a coder - I'm a designer. One of the more technical designers out there; that's a big factor in why I'm doing AI design.

      My background definately helps. I can communicate with the coders using terms they are comfortable with - they don't have to "dumb down" their thoughts to make a concept work for me. However, being a Designer means I'm not actually doing the coding: I design the systems, the desired end results. As such I use a wide range of skills and knowledge, from psychology and sociology to modelling and HCI.

      I suspect your question is actually "how many of the people out there coding AI have a typical CS background..." The answer in my experience is most, although I've worked with people with specific degrees in AI as well. Mostly people end up doing AI in games because it interests them, and they worked hard developing their skills in that area. Actually, that answers your second question as well - if you want to work for an "actual organization doing AI" then you can, if you want to make games, go for that instead. Depends what path you choose to pusue, assuming you can push yourself far enough to succede.

      But, if I've got you wrong and you actually want to do the design side of AI... you're aiming to be a games designer. There have been a few stories here about how to break into the industry, and I remember seeing lots of cogent advice - go check them out. Once you're established as a designer, specializing is only a few titles away...

    3. Re:Employment of AI vs CS grads in game design by Surt · · Score: 1

      Well, if you're trained in AI, chances are good you're not going to be writing AI for games because that's a pretty small number of jobs compared to the overall market.

      Most of the AI people in the games industry I know were general CS background, and much like any task, read some books and some research before diving into the work. Same for the 3d programmers: not specialists in 3d in school, but instead something you learn when you need to/want to for a game project you're working on.

      Nearly everybody in the game industry is or tries to be a generalist, that's how you stay employable.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    4. Re:Employment of AI vs CS grads in game design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting point. So what does "designing" game AI involve? I'm guessing that you're storyboarding game element behavior based on environmental factors and player actions, which your programmers then put into practice.

      Like I said that's a guess. As someone not schooled in AI principles, I don't really know, but that sounds interesting. As an AI designer do you work with the team that performs the top level design for a title, or do you pretty much just implement their principles? In other words, how much creative freedom do you get?

    5. Re:Employment of AI vs CS grads in game design by vaporakula · · Score: 2, Informative

      Kind of. It's not just working out the individual behaviors that characters exhibit, but also coming to the programming team with a system of how the decisions can be made to chose these behaviors appropriately. Game design of any kind is a negotiation as much as anything though, so I'm not there to force solutions on people.

      So, while I do effectively storyboard character behaviors I also head into more technical design as well. It definately helps to have a technical background, and I studied (lightly) AI topics at university so I have a decent grounding to work from. I also make an effort to constantly communicate with my programmers, as they are experts at what they do as well. My overarching aim is to make sure the AI is fun, not force a particular implementation.

      As to creative freedom, there's plenty. I'm expected to stay true to the franchise (yes, it's a sequel... i know, i know...) but more importantly I'm expected to make a fun game. So, as long as I can convince people my plan is going to produce something awesome, they go for it :)

  6. Enlightening and frustrating. by GillBates0 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    AI for Computer Games was both enlightening and frustrating at the same time.

    Much like how AI is, atleast in it's current state.

    Enlightening because even the most basic attempts at simulating intelligence in machines makes us realize how vastly superior Nature's machines are. And frustrating because of how difficult it is proving for us to reach an adequately satisfactory understanding of "real" intelligence/consciousness inspite of all the research/effort we've been putting in.

    --
    An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
    1. Re:Enlightening and frustrating. by Hoplite3 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think one of the big hurdles is the countable number of states of a digital computer versus the uncountable number for an analog computer (like the brain). We live in the digital era, but this has the side effect that we are blinding ourselves to the limitations of digital technology.

      Screen resolution is a good example. The resolution of text on a computer screen is lousy compared to a printed page, but people spend so much time reading text off of their computers that they seem shocked that reading low-rez text is hard on the eyes.

      I know, advancements in digital devices can make up most of the gap. You just need pixels slightly smaller than the smallest thing the eye can see. Then the digital display can equal the 'analog display' of real-world objects.

      But for intelligence? We need so many states to simulate a human brain that it just isn't feasible. I guess this point isn't lost on AI researchers, who look for shortcuts and such, but it is interesting...

      Wait, we were talking about game 'AI'. Game AI is like chatbot AI. It needs to be fun to play with, not necessarily smart, learning, or challenging (although those things can be fun too).

      --
      Use the Firehose to mod down Second Life stories!
    2. Re:Enlightening and frustrating. by GlassHeart · · Score: 1
      even the most basic attempts at simulating intelligence in machines makes us realize how vastly superior Nature's machines are.

      Depends on the task at hand. We are the only species we know of that can reliably do arithmetic, yet a computer chip that literally costs cents can do it faster and more accurately. A relatively complex (only by today's standards) computer can regularly defeat grandmasters in chess, nevermind the rest of us. Machines also don't get tired or bored, and can remember many things more exactly. If you open a book of puzzles, you will realize how many of them are trivially solved by a computer.

      Of course, the intelligence involved in inventing these wonderful machines is astounding, and we are by no means obsolete. That's probably the "vastly superior" part you're talking about. For quite a few tasks, however, what we are realizing is that the human brain isn't particularly efficient.

    3. Re:Enlightening and frustrating. by ndrw · · Score: 1
      If you open a book of puzzles, you will realize how many of them are trivially solved by a computer.


      But the computer has to be given the algorithm to solve these puzzles, which must be written by a human. So far, no one has been able to give problem solving ability of that magnitude to a computer (many might claim that it involves "intuition" that cannot be simulated by a digital system).

    4. Re:Enlightening and frustrating. by kukyfrope · · Score: 1

      Enlightening because even the most basic attempts at simulating intelligence in machines makes us realize how vastly superior Nature's machines are. And frustrating because of how difficult it is proving for us to reach an adequately satisfactory understanding of "real" intelligence/consciousness inspite of all the research/effort we've been putting in. The positives (?) being that mankind has made progress towards artificially-intelligent beings becoming closer to how real humans think and react in just the last few hundred years. For those in support of evolution, the modern human race has partially achieved in a few hundred years what mother nature has achieved in a few billion years. Nature's machines may be far superior, but products of this course have progressed gradually over a long perod of time. Given more time (within our lifetimes?) with the current rate of development we are capable of, the manifestation of artificially-intelligent life may exceed the human race, fulfilling the fantasies of many giddy sci-fi fans anxious to serve as pets to a Terminator.

    5. Re:Enlightening and frustrating. by GlassHeart · · Score: 1
      But the computer has to be given the algorithm to solve these puzzles, which must be written by a human.

      Sure, but when you compare the complexity of the completed machines with that of the human brain, it's clear that the machine is more efficient (same work in less time using fewer "parts"). That doesn't take away anything from the human brain, because as you say we created it. I see it as akin to creating hydraulic equipment that can lift far more weight than we ever can.

    6. Re:Enlightening and frustrating. by Chosen+Reject · · Score: 1
      and can remember many things more exactly

      So a computer can "remember" more things because it can write it down and then look it up later? I do that all the time and thus can remember all sorts of things. That's very impressive of a computer. Also as said by another poster, computers have not as yet learned anything. We have conditioned them very similarly to Pavlov's dogs. but they (computers and the dogs) really haven't learned anything.

      --
      Stop Global Warming!
      Just say no to irreversible processes!
    7. Re:Enlightening and frustrating. by Chosen+Reject · · Score: 1
      same work in less time

      Maybe this has never happened to you, but there have been many times where entire scenes and thoughts and consequences have all gone through my mind in a fraction of a second. I got all the visual and audio sensations that my brain can create as well as a much larger understanding of the situation than what I would have gotten had the events actually transpired.

      I passed out once and had a very long dream. My mind created the backstories of all the people involved in the dream including a lot of sensations (sight, sound, touch, smell, etc.). When I came to, those around me said I had barely been out for a second. That's quite a lot that the brain can do. Very very quickly I might add.

      --
      Stop Global Warming!
      Just say no to irreversible processes!
    8. Re:Enlightening and frustrating. by GlassHeart · · Score: 1
      So a computer can "remember" more things because it can write it down and then look it up later? I do that all the time and thus can remember all sorts of things.

      But you can't look them up quickly enough for practical purposes, just as a massive book of chess moves will not help you when faced with Kasparov in a real (timed) game.

      That's very impressive of a computer.

      Stop anthropomorphizing. Whatever is cool about a computer is better attributed to its creators: us. But yes, it is impressive how a cheap little device can remember more telephone numbers than you can with your massive (I'm not being sarcastic) brain with billions of neurons.

      However it does the job, all I really care is if it's doing something better than a human can. Why do you really care if it "learned" your phone number or just "remembered" it? Just to feel superior to a machine we created? Are you bothered that a forklift can carry more weight than you can?

    9. Re:Enlightening and frustrating. by GlassHeart · · Score: 1

      What does that have to do with my contention that there are many non-trivial tasks that can be accomplished more quickly by a machine using far less processing power than the brain has?

    10. Re:Enlightening and frustrating. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Please remember that research in this area is in its infancy. I'm not a cognitive or neuro-scientist; however, I do have a friend doing research in the field. As I understand it, the problem with our current simulations of cognition is that our understanding of the genuine biological phenomena is still quite lacking. Unfortunately, many of the current approaches to implementing "AI" are "top-down"; rule-based, or symbolic in nature. These may be useful for certain applications (e.g. expert systems); however, I don't they'll ever amount to anything remotely sentient. Additionally, our imitations of biological neural networks are still very primative, and pale in comparison to the real thing. Until we have a better understanding of our own neurological processes, I think our chances of simulating genuine intelligence is minimal.

    11. Re:Enlightening and frustrating. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      > "I think one of the big hurdles is the countable number of states of a digital computer versus the uncountable number for an analog computer (like the brain)."

      I think that the 2^1024 discrete states that a 1GB memory can represent are sufficient to provide a simulation of reality adequate for game AI. The problem isn't that the computer can't represent enough states. It's that we don't know what to do with those states. ("It's the software, stupid!")

    12. Re:Enlightening and frustrating. by sartin · · Score: 1

      But the computer has to be given the algorithm to solve these puzzles, which must be written by a human.

      In college, I designed and built a computer using only SSI and MSI TTL chips (much of the effort and board space going into the ALU, which we were later allowed to replace with a pair of 74ls181 4-bit ALUs). To prove it worked, we wrote multi-precision math package and some simple puzzle solvers. Total time to design, assemble, and program: 5 weeks (while taking a course load of 20 credit hours).

      My five year old is great at arithmetic and simple puzzles. Conceiving him was significant effort. The pregnancy had its difficulties. Teaching and caring for him is a full-time job and he's not even school age yet. That's all not even counting the extra effort that's gone into dealing with his leukemia.

      Trust me, the computer is easier to build and program.

    13. Re:Enlightening and frustrating. by mo^ · · Score: 1

      DMT?

      --
      bah!*@%!
    14. Re:Enlightening and frustrating. by stonecypher · · Score: 1

      Man, this would be a great argument if the brain was analog, instead of time-pulse domain like it actually is.

      Reminds me of a guy who used to tell athletes to not drink water before an event, because water was very heavy, so it'd weigh you down and you'd get tired faster. It's very easy to make superficially compelling arguments when you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

      In summation: read a book.

      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
    15. Re:Enlightening and frustrating. by mrgod761 · · Score: 1

      Are you bothered that a forklift can carry more weight than you can?
      That was hilarious!

  7. Re: Spore (corrected links) by FnH · · Score: 3, Informative

    I just finished reading a preview of Spore, a new game from the creator of the sims, and it seems like AI in games is about to take another leap :) (messed up my previous post a bit)

  8. AI = Annoying Idiot -- Deserves To Die by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    I love those strategy games where you have to gather your resources, move your armies into position, and watch the slaughter. But I wish the games has decent AI more than anything else. It doesn't take much to lose the war if you have one twit who decides to take a walk around the world and bring the enemies to your backyard when your forces are half-way to storming the enemy gates. There's nothing like leaving your arse exposed during war time.

    1. Re:AI = Annoying Idiot -- Deserves To Die by kfg · · Score: 1

      See The Battle of Thermopolyae.

      I'm afraid that one of the attributes of real intelligence is that it often leads the enemy to your backyard.

      The real world is full of real twits.

      KFG

    2. Re:AI = Annoying Idiot -- Deserves To Die by Barumpus · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think that the AI in games is getting great. A prime example would be BF2. I went online to play it and found that even though the AI players are easier to kill while online, they are much more life like with the insults and complaints.

    3. Re: AI = Annoying Idiot -- Deserves To Die by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1


      > There's nothing like leaving your arse exposed during war time.

      Like these guys?

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  9. I can see it now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Computer game: "You have been playing this game for over 24 hours. You need rest."

    Person: "Shut up, I'm almost to the high score!"

    Computer game: "I cannot allow you to "pull a Korean". "I am shutting you off."

    1. Re:I can see it now... by CasulPoster · · Score: 1

      They did this in Earthbound. Your "dad" (who you never see in the game, you only talk to him via cell phone and landline) would call every few hours or so and say "Hey, don't you think you should take a break?"

    2. Re:I can see it now... by Shaper_pmp · · Score: 1

      In Korea, only old people die playing computer games.

      No, wait...

      --
      Everything in moderation, including moderation itself
    3. Re:I can see it now... by seestuffgo · · Score: 1

      normally I would have laughed, but I just read the following article about a man who died several minutes after playing a game for 50 hours in a korean internet cafe:

      http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8888579/

  10. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Funny

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  11. True, But... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  12. natural computer? by k4_pacific · · Score: 3, Funny

    "because of the interest in modeling behaviors on machines that we find in nature"

    Does that mean you are going to run it on an abandoned 486 you found in the woods?

    --
    Unknown host pong.
    1. Re:natural computer? by lazlo · · Score: 1

      I'm glad I wasn't the only one that read it that way at first. It took me a moment to re-arrange things to where I understood that the phrase "that we find in nature" described behaviors, not machines.

      Probably would have been better to say something like "...interest in modeling on machines those behaviors that we find in nature."

      But then, what do geeks know about english grammar?

      --
      Pound! Bang! Bin! Bash! is this a shell script or a Batman comic?
  13. Re:I just don't understand. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not sure if you should be exalted or paddled for that one.

  14. Game 'AI'... by sarlos · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've never really liked calling a Game's 'AI' Artificial Intelligence for one reason - they don't learn. It's always seemed more of what I'd call Simulated Intelligence. There's always a stopping point, even if they train the computer to play themselves. A point where it's not learning anymore and the computer only seems to be acting intelligent.

    From the review, it seems this books touches on this a bit. Hopefully more game developers will start putting additional effort into making dynamic, learning Artificial Intelligence components to their games.

    Of course, part of the problem is also building the AI to act Human. Humans make mistakes, and so should the computer. In warfare, there's always been that element of random chance where you can capitalize on an enemy's mistakes. Take in factos like morale, confidence, etc. It's no fun to play against a perfect oponent all the time :p

    I think the first game company to get this careful balance right is going to be laughing all the way to the bank.

    --
    Government's view of the economy: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving,regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it.
    1. Re:Game 'AI'... by Dachannien · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Learning is only a subset of artificial intelligence.

    2. Re:Game 'AI'... by kfg · · Score: 2, Funny

      A point where it's not learning anymore and. . . only seems to be acting intelligent.

      Yeah, I think we all know a lot of people like that.

      KFG

    3. Re:Game 'AI'... by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 1

      I like this new axiom:
      "An AI is only as smart as the person who programmed it"
      Which also explains why the single player on Blizzard's strategy games is so dire... Ohh, look, it can rush!

      --
      FGD 135
    4. Re:Game 'AI'... by xenoandroid · · Score: 1

      Ever play Bushido Blade 2 for PSOne? I believe it had some degree of learning in it's A.I.

    5. Re:Game 'AI'... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Various bots in First-Person shooters DO learn ; Besides the waypoints in the maps, they also 'learn' and react on the moves one makes.

    6. Re:Game 'AI'... by timeOday · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Learning is only a subset of artificial intelligence.
      So the question is whether learning is an important element of AI for games.

      I can imagine one great benefit of learning for games: the AI should determine when a player is using a single tactic over and over, and come up with a counter-tactic. That would fix one of the biggest reasons games get boring, which is you find some silly hole that makes winning too easy.

    7. Re:Game 'AI'... by Dan+D. · · Score: 1

      I disagree that learning is required if you have this: Of course, part of the problem is also building the AI to act Human. Humans make mistakes, and so should the computer. In warfare, there's always been that element of random chance where you can capitalize on an enemy's mistakes. Take in factos like morale, confidence, etc. It's no fun to play against a perfect oponent all the time :p

      with *enough* human like characteristics I think the interaction would be more interesting and be "artificial intelligence" whether its learning or not. It would still feel correct, just not on the second time you play the game (unless its a *very* broad range.)

      My research deals with this so I'm biased :) but I think the first step is to increase the range of agent interaction first. As in what you said, make it make mistakes. Make other AIs that make different mistakes and have a uniqueness. Once we get that (and maybe a whole lot more) I think dealing with the complexity of an AI that *learns* from those mistakes will be a little bit easier.

      As a stepping stone though I think the games industry should go toward failing like a human. See if you can match the same feel of getting someone pissed off at you online. besides just having the AI call you an "aimbot" or something. Despite the situational irony. Let the AI appear to start acting stupid because its pissed off that some plan failed. If convincing it adds reward as well as giving the AI a failure point to exploit in the game (especially if the failure point is unique for different agents)

      Btw, just because its fun to talk about my research, I'm doing behavioral cloning. Trying to get the nuance of different humans into different agents (especially the failure modes). Anybody else doing something like that?

      --
      People who quote themselves bug the crap out of me -- Me.
    8. Re:Game 'AI'... by Jboy_24 · · Score: 1

      I can think of one very good (business) reason why game AI tends to have a static level of "reason" and doesn't learn. It is that if a game's AI dynamically adjusted to the end users actions in a someone thourough manner, the end product would have vastly different game expirences from user to user.

      I cannot imagine how much of a pain that would be to QA, or support.

    9. Re:Game 'AI'... by Shadarr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem with AI in games is two-fold: players want to be challenged, but players want to win. It's a lot easier to write a chess program that will beat the hell out of everyone except a grandmaster than it is to make something that will let weaker players win.

      Similarly, it's difficult to make bots in FPS games that aren't completely stupid, but also don't headshot the player 100% of the time. Computer players will not miss unless you make them.

      The problem isn't that it's hard to make computers smarter, it's that it's hard to make computers act like smarter people. It would fairly easy to write the perfect RTS opponent who never makes mistakes and beats the player every single time, but nobody would play that game. A challenge is only a challenge if it's achievable, otherwise it's just punishment.

      There are actually games out there which learn. I've heard that Sega's ESPN NFL 2K5 has a virtual coach option which builds a profile based on how you play, and if you load that profile (or if someone else does) as the AI it's like playing against yourself. A similar engine for RTS games would be pretty cool.

    10. Re:Game 'AI'... by Mr.+Mikey · · Score: 1
      "The problem with AI in games is two-fold: players want to be challenged, but players want to win. It's a lot easier to write a chess program that will beat the hell out of everyone except a grandmaster than it is to make something that will let weaker players win.

      Similarly, it's difficult to make bots in FPS games that aren't completely stupid, but also don't headshot the player 100% of the time. Computer players will not miss unless you make them."


      The "never miss" problem can be dealt with by making the bot's senses or motor control 'noisy', such that there's a controllable error term to their sensing or aiming code.

      The are other major problems:
      • if your AI isn't written in symbolic terms (e.g. you're using neural nets), it's very hard to figure out what caused your AI to do "something strange", and very hard to tweak the AI such that it doesn't do that strange thing, but still has the same performance, which brings us to ...
      • it's hard to design an AI such that you can 'turn a knob' and take the AI from weak to average to strong to expert playing levels.
      • It's hard to test an adaptive system. How do you know it will perform the way you want when used by real players? Indeed, how do you tell what it's future performance will be, period? If it's adaptive, its parameters could wander into a region of parameter space that makes your AI act like a coked-up mongoose, or a recent lobotomy recipient.

      These problems can be solved, but the solutions don't tend to be generic in nature, and must be tailored to the specific game.
      --
      wants to be the first monkey to touch the monolith
    11. Re:Game 'AI'... by vaporakula · · Score: 1
      I wholeheartedly agree with your points, other than:

      it's hard to design an AI such that you can 'turn a knob' and take the AI from weak to average to strong to expert playing levels.

      Maybe it's because I have a background in designing systems that scale well, but to me this is something you address at the start and it becomes easy... everything from range of tactical choices at the macro level to quality of play at a micro level can be tuned.

      Yeah, I guess the solutions are specific to a particular game... but the techniques themselves transfer between games, genres and generations.

    12. Re:Game 'AI'... by kwoff · · Score: 1
      I've never really liked calling a Game's 'AI' Artificial Intelligence for one reason - they don't learn. It's always seemed more of what I'd call Simulated Intelligence.

      That's a good point about them not learning, but in that case the distinction doesn't seem to be between Artificial and Simulated. More like Intelligence versus... I dunno, Behavior.

    13. Re:Game 'AI'... by maxpublic · · Score: 1

      As in what you said, make it make mistakes.

      Why on Earth would you want it to make mistakes?Seriously, the only time I hear gamers complaining that a game is "too hard" is either when cheats stack things in the AI's favor so badly they're glaringly obvious, or when the player is simply too incompetent to ever come close to mastering the game.

      Give me better AI, not AI that's both stupid AND deliberately designed to fuck up. Or is it that you're trying to simulate the lowest common denominator among gamers?

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
    14. Re:Game 'AI'... by maxpublic · · Score: 1

      It would fairly easy to write the perfect RTS opponent who never makes mistakes and beats the player every single time, but nobody would play that game.

      Only if the AI cheated, and this isn't a reflection of the skill used in programming the AI but in how badly the deck has been stacked in it's favor. There's a reason why the harder difficulty levels in most games give the AI big advantages (e.g., twice the mining resources, half the cost of units, etc.): it's because game house *can't* write an AI that's able to out-think a decent player, if both the AI and the human start with the same conditions and play under the same set of rules. And even if someone manages to accomplish this feat in the future, the AI will still be non-adaptive and fundamentally flawed (easily defeated by the first loophole or golden tactic found).

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
  15. Genetic Algorithms by joepeg · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The section on learning is especially interesting, as the idea of rewarding the algorithm when it performs correctly seems both strange and obvious at the same time (although the author points out that sometimes the algorithm can do undesirable things in order to obtain that reward).

    Genetic Algorithms will most definitely be involved in the way the gaming experience progresses.

    To expand on the idea of rewarding, those genomes that are rewarded the most are then permitted to "mate" with other strong genomes, which will take into account inheritance, mutation, natural selection, and recombination (or crossover) resulting in the "smartest" population.

    The fitness test could also be controlled by the player, keeping the game even more interesting, for a much longer period of time.

    --

    ZEN is a prime number in base-36

    1. Re:Genetic Algorithms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Genetic Algorithms will most definitely be involved in the way the gaming experience progresses.

      Why? There are lots of different approaches to machine learning. Why are GAs "most definitely" going to be the ones used in the future?
    2. Re:Genetic Algorithms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because it's the only one he knows about? He wants to sound smart and get mod points? Take your pick...

    3. Re:Genetic Algorithms by ciroknight · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't it be more lifelike (and to ensure the game didn't become rapidly unbeatable) to allow all of the creatures to breed, and then subject to the game's environment, let those which are not strong enough die? Yes, it's the same process, but it's not as artificial, and is very doable in a gaming world.

      Simply turn loose the creatures in an environment, set an amount of time before they become able to mate, and then set loose predators to them (aka the player). As the player kills off the weaker of the species, only the stronger ones will mate, and the whole process feels very natural.

      --
      "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." G.W.Bush
    4. Re:Genetic Algorithms by Unordained · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Err ... 'evolution' results, if all goes well, in a local-maximum. Nothing about the process of evolution, real or simulation, says you'll get "the best" anything. Only that, on average, things will tend to improve in a way that matches the particular constraints at the time, according to available variations. If the constraints change, or there were several ways around a problem ("hack",) or there wasn't sufficient diversity, or a bad trait just happened to get rewarded along with a good trait, you may wind up with a terribly bad result.

      This is why I get so annoyed when scientists (and creationists) ask "what is this organ useful for?" expecting that every animal's every organ is entirely well-suited to its environment -- because either evolution or the hand of god made it perfect. That's not what the theory(!) of evolution predicts. Narwhals wound up with a long tooth, and sure, maybe they use it to impress the females now -- but is that why they have it in the first place, do they maybe only use it because they have it? Could it be that somewhere along the line, some freak just happened to survive an accident when others didn't, and passed on the freak gene causing this tooth to be a horn?

      Weird results from genetic algorithms are even more likely in small-population scenarios like games. You can only send so many 'test' enemies at the player before he gets bored. Particularly considering that in most games, either the player surives or the computer survives, I'm not seeing at what point you can reward the AI by letting it reproduce except when the player loses (at least in an FPS setting.) In that case, the game only gets better if the player loses a lot -- and most games try to make sure the player doesn't lose too much, but is instead always on the brink of losing (to keep him hopeful but challenged.) On the other hand, if you train them in the studio, you'll have to be careful to not train them to be good only against the testers. You don't want to release a game in which the AI is really good -- so long as you don't lure it into getting stuck in a corner, just because no tester thought to do that often enough to breed it out.

      But genetic algorithms are certainly not guaranteed to produce good results. They merely might.

    5. Re:Genetic Algorithms by JesterXXV · · Score: 1
      The difficulty with GA is defining the all the genes within that genome. Take chess. How many dimensions are there to a player? Aggressiveness, opening moves, favored pieces, spontaneity... I don't even know what else, since I'm terrible at chess.

      Point is, yeah, genetic algorithms are fantastic, but only with problems that are easily definable.

      --
      Yo mama so fake, she failed the Turing Test.
    6. Re:Genetic Algorithms by JesterXXV · · Score: 1
      'evolution' results, if all goes well, in a local-maximum.

      That's why mutations are introduced.

      --
      Yo mama so fake, she failed the Turing Test.
    7. Re:Genetic Algorithms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want to develop a game to mimic life, what better way than to subject it to evolution.

      Plus they already made Black&White

    8. Re:Genetic Algorithms by timeOday · · Score: 1

      There's only one problem: GAs don't work very well. Nobody has been able to get them to invent tactics competitive with what a person can easily devise. (That's the falsifiable claim of this post). And that's allowing for thousands of hours of offline computation, which games don't generally have. GAs work for simple problems (like the inverted pendulum), but even then are much slower than other approaches. In the early history of Robocup (in the simulation league) there were several attempts to evolve team behavior, and performance was not competitive with handcoded teams.

    9. Re:Genetic Algorithms by SukMuhNerD · · Score: 1

      http://www.red3d.com/cwr/papers/1994/alife4.html/
      A great introduction article to genetic algorithm being applied in the game of tag.

    10. Re:Genetic Algorithms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. In AI land, the GP should look up "simulated annealing"

    11. Re:Genetic Algorithms by Unordained · · Score: 1

      At least in artificial evolutionary systems, yes. ("Why" is an odd question from a purely naturalistic point of view. Did nature -decide- to inject mutations?) However, mutations only get you so far. From somewhere near a local maximum, you're basically reaching out trying to hit another local maximum. If you hit something less-than-as-good-as-you-already-have, even if it's on the side of a better curve, you'll probably not get selected. Or at least, probabilistically not. If the same mutation keeps happening, yes, maybe one of them will stick around long enough to start climbing the newly-reached curve. But that requires, again, a large population. It seems like the chances of true 'innovation' go down as the (different) species reach their local maxima -- each will improve on itself less and less, then stagnate. In nature, you rarely get breeding between two completely random species (the general rule seems to be 'never'), so even if you have several specialized species, you're not going to have them naturally breeding and forming a third, new species that can start its own evolutionary path. But we do have that advantage in simulations. We can take a bird and an ant, merge them, and see what happens. Nature tends to avoid that (possibly with good effects) but it'd be a good way to re-introduce "proven" mutations into a species and see if they can be useful elsewhere. (Much like we pull useful genes out of random plants and stick them in other plants or animals. The mutation is common in one species but not another, both are successful, so we merge them to see what happens. Neither would naturally evolve into the other.)

    12. Re:Genetic Algorithms by manifoldronin · · Score: 1
      Weird results from genetic algorithms are even more likely in small-population scenarios like games. You can only send so many 'test' enemies at the player before he gets bored. Particularly considering that in most games, either the player surives or the computer survives, I'm not seeing at what point you can reward the AI by letting it reproduce except when the player loses (at least in an FPS setting.)
      I don't think that's how genetic algorithms would be used in games. It's more likely that they would be used to train the AI *before* the game is released. For example, a poker game developer can build a server farm, create an arbitrarily large population, and keep having them playing each other for long enough to converge to a good AI (or a number of them with different styles).
      --
      Tyranny isn't the worst enemy of a democracy. Cynicism is.
    13. Re:Genetic Algorithms by dasunt · · Score: 1

      Consider a multiplayer game.

      What you reward can be 'time-spent-alive-after-attack' or 'hps-of-opponent-dropped'

      What you are optimizing for is the actions the NPC does in combat.

      With the sheer amount of NPCs slaughtered, you have a large amount of test cases. (You could also do simulated NPC vs PC battles, by duplicating PCs and running AIs for both the dupped PC and the NPCs and letting the most successful reproduce).

      Remember, computer worlds aren't the real world. In the RW, an organism must survive to create offspring. In the computer worlds, an organism can die and later have 'offspring'.

    14. Re:Genetic Algorithms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry I'm a bit late on the reply here, but I've got something very important for you all to consider regarding genetic algorithms in games: are you really ready to answer the question "(Mommy|Daddy), what are those two NPCs doing?"

      Keyword: crackpot

      p.s. Rockstar obviously already uses genetic algorithms in GTA (think: Hot Coffee), and nobody raves about the AI in that game...

    15. Re:Genetic Algorithms by puusism · · Score: 1

      Err ... 'evolution' results, if all goes well, in a local-maximum.

      I don't comment on real world evolution, but genetic algorithms converge on the global optimum. You need to remember that GAs consist of two parts: crossover (combination of traits from the parents) and mutation (random change in a gene). If GAs consisted only of crossover, they would converge on local optima, but mutation causes the population to eventually break out from any non-global optima. Note that without crossover, there wouldn't be any convergence.

      --
      - Ismo
    16. Re:Genetic Algorithms by Quadraginta · · Score: 1

      He's also overlooking the factor of time. Evolution is only guaranteed to converge on the global optimum over an infinite time, and, in unsually perverse parameter spaces, it can certainly take an amount of time wholly unavailable to any reasonable application, so that you begin to think the algorithm will "never" converge to the global optimum.

      I think this is one reason people find biological evolution fairly easy to swallow when it applies to microbes becoming more drug-resistant, but harder to credit when it applies to dinosaurs evolving wings and turning into birds. It's just a lot harder to wrap your head around the millions of generations such a complex optimization takes, and visualize the exceedingly unlikely semi-random walk through parameter space that happened. We start to rear back and say no way, that's just so damn unlikely it could never happen.

      But our daily experience -- our common sense -- does not train us well to distinguish between could never happen and couldn't happen in less than ten million years, and, of course, over a billion years or so the latter is actually functionally equivalent to guaranteed to happen.

    17. Re:Genetic Algorithms by grimJester · · Score: 0

      In that case, the game only gets better if the player loses a lot -- and most games try to make sure the player doesn't lose too much, but is instead always on the brink of losing (to keep him hopeful but challenged.)

      So, you reward the desired behavior. Why should training an AI be any different from training dogs, kids or girlfriends?

      Seriously, you don't want the instakill monsters to be the only ones that survive. The ones that give the player an interesting, suitably long and suitably hard fight are the ones you want.

    18. Re:Genetic Algorithms by maxpublic · · Score: 1

      In that case, the game only gets better if the player loses a lot -- and most games try to make sure the player doesn't lose too much

      Most games throw the best AI the company was able to produce at the player, then increase the difficulty level by progressively stacking cheats in the AI's favor. That's a testament to just how bad the AI actually is.

      If you had an actual decent AI, the process would be reversed: instead of throwing cheats the AI's way as the difficulty increased, you'd toss it penalties as the difficulty *decreased*. You'd use the best AI you could develop at all difficulty levels, but penalize it more and more as the player dials down the difficulty.

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
    19. Re:Genetic Algorithms by mcvos · · Score: 1

      Read up a bit more on http://www.genetic-programming.org/Genetic Programming. It's more powerful and flexible than standard genetic algorithms, but also a lot more complex and unpredictable. Possibilities are endless, and they've only begun to discover just how many kinds of problems you can solve with evolution this way.

      Also an interesting idea is to use genetic algorithms to set up the parameters for a neural network. Tuning NN isn't easy, so why not let evolution do it for you?

      mcv.

    20. Re:Genetic Algorithms by mcvos · · Score: 1

      GAs aren't for devising completely new things, but for tuning existing things. They can tune certain parameters of existing tactics, for example. If you want to see completely new tactics, use Genetic Programming.

      Ofcourse most of those tactics will be useless, and evolution is very slow, so most of the evolution needs to happen on big, powerful computers before actually releasing the game.

      mcv.

    21. Re:Genetic Algorithms by stonecypher · · Score: 1

      This is why I get so annoyed when scientists (and creationists) ask "what is this organ useful for?" expecting that every animal's every organ is entirely well-suited to its environment -- because either evolution or the hand of god made it perfect.

      There's a difference between observing that something is imperfect and being aware that ancilla have a cost. The human appendix is expensive, and unless it kicks in and learns to do something, it'll be gone in 10,000 natural generations (that is, after the collapse of modern medicine, so we can get back to natural selection.)

      That's not what the theory(!) of evolution predicts.

      Why is it that people try to play semantic games like this? There's no such thing as the theory of evolution. It's called the theory of natural selection, and yes, it most certainly predicts that over a statistically significant amount of time, useless organs will be discarded. That's why we don't have gills, tails or fur anymore: they take energy and resources to make, so children that don't have them get by on less.

      Just because we haven't finished discarding the appendix yet doesn't mean we won't. Try to take the long view.

      Weird results from genetic algorithms are even more likely in small-population scenarios like games.

      Oh, read a book. Genetic algorithms are a design step, not a runtime step. I use simulated annealing, a similar competing technique, to generate players; I've run through almost two and a half million networks for my chess game, and I expect that training batch is around one third done. "Small-population scenarios" are the definition of niche ecologies, which are well understood and recorded to be the statistical genesis of most new species. We're even watching it happen in a butterfly right now.

      Have you even read Darwin's work, or are you just arguing something you believe you've absorbed by contact from the rest of the well meaning but ill-educated masses?

      Metamoderate all modders to parent down. You're only supposed to use insightful when you understand what the post is talking about and can verify its veracity. This guy thinks genetic algorithms get tested one at a time against humans.

      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
    22. Re:Genetic Algorithms by Unordained · · Score: 1

      You're a little late, but you needn't make up for it with rudeness.

      No. Theory only predicts that there is likely to be a 'selection' if there is a means for the selection (variation) and a reason for the selection (preference). An organ may be useless, but if there's no variation, or if its cost is minimal compared to other selection factors, then selection isn't expected to occur. It might (if there's variation) by entirely random chance, particularly in small groups, taking the species in an effectively random direction. But that doesn't help your point.

      No. We don't lack gills simply because they take energy to grow and therefore children without gills somehow survive more easily. Or rather, you'll have trouble proving what you've asserted. It's a possibility, yes. But then, it's also possible our ancestors simply thought gills were ugly, abandoned their children, killed and ate them, or refused to mate with any creature with gills. Or maybe you were there and can give us a history lesson? Reverse-engineering the process from the result is difficult work.

      You fall prey to the same fallacy as everyone else, assuming that because an organ is useless in your eyes, it will be useless in the virtual eye of natural selection. Natural selection doesn't come with any guarantees, no matter how much time you give it -- 10,000 generations or not. If it did come with guarantees, that might almost be proof of a Creator, who would have designed the process with a goal in mind.

      In simulations, the result is only as good as the selection process. Our ecology is based on all of us having been part of the selection process together. If you evolve AIs in a lab, and then have them meet real-world gamers, you're introducing an entirely new, foreign constraint to them. Furthermore, if you try to hurry things up in the lab by keeping only the top z% of the agents (cream of the cream), it's entirely possible that your population will skew in a random direction -- butterfly effect, essentially. Without continuous outside testing and some way of rectifying these anomalies, you may in the end have AIs that are really good against each other, but terrible against a real-world player. All the iterations in the world won't have helped you then. So no, I'm not assuming one-at-a-time testing, but I am assuming a good bit of outside control, if you're growing AIs with a particular result in mind. If you have no end result in mind (as is, apparently, the case of our planet) then leaving things to run their course is entirely appropriate (inasmuch as anything is 'appropriate' or 'good' in the absence of a goal.)

      But thanks for your insight. On that subject -- you should be complaining about 'informative' moderations, not 'insightful', and even then it's a stretch. In our pomo world, what's the point of a 'truth' moderation? I'd love to see the politics section then ...

    23. Re:Genetic Algorithms by stonecypher · · Score: 1

      You're a little late, but you needn't make up for it with rudeness.

      I find it quite cathartic to speak down to people who are speaking down to others from platforms of ignorance. If you dislike that, you have three options: put me in my place, admit what I believe about your comprehension, or don't reply.

      No. Theory only predicts that there is likely to be a 'selection' if there is a means for the selection (variation) and a reason for the selection (preference). An organ may be useless, but if there's no variation, or if its cost is minimal compared to other selection factors, then selection isn't expected to occur.

      In fact, that was exactly my point, hinged on the fairly obvious contention that maintaining a five pound slab of meat is very expensive in terms of food and immunological cost.

      No. We don't lack gills simply because they take energy to grow and therefore children without gills somehow survive more easily.

      Oh really? Because we used to have them. Where'd they go? And why, if not because maintaining two oxygen blood exchange systems is fantastically expensive? (Hint: after the brain, the skin and the liver, the lungs are the most expensive organs to maintain. Lungs and lung-analogs will be the fourth to go.)

      You fall prey to the same fallacy as everyone else, assuming that because an organ is useless in your eyes, it will be useless in the virtual eye of natural selection.

      1) That's not what a fallacy is.

      2) That's one of the critical underpinnings of natural selection - maintenance cost as an environmental stress. You brought natural selection up, not me. Now you want to say it's off of the point?

      If it did come with guarantees, that might almost be proof of a Creator, who would have designed the process with a goal in mind.

      Yes yes, trying to make me out to seem like a religious nut (that's called a Straw Man, by the way) is cute and all, but I never said or even implied anything about perfection. I was quite clear to couch my predictions in terms of statistical significance. If you don't know statistics, you may not understand what that means, but it's quite poison to this notion of perfection of yours. It's a big dice game, nothing more. That said, over the course of the fossil record, and recently in life, we have evidence of this sort of thing happening hundreds of thousands of times.

      If you evolve AIs in a lab, and then have them meet real-world gamers, you're introducing an entirely new, foreign constraint to them.

      Look, I don't know where you're getting this stuff. A human can't give a chess game any different inputs than another chess game can. It's chess rules, pure and simple. I'm sure you're trying to make some point that the way a human plays chess is somehow significantly different an input, but that's just baloney. That's like suggesting that the vicar's wife method is significantly different than the bingo cage method for picking random numbers. It's malarky.

      You can go ahead and wave your hands all you want, but projects like Blondie24 have shown several times that annealing generates admirable opponents even when trained against its own. You can insist there are subtle qualitative differences, but experience suggests otherwise, so I'll wait for your examples until I give any credence to your appeals.

      Give me citations, not assertions.

      Furthermore, if you try to hurry things up in the lab by keeping only the top z% of the agents (cream of the cream), it's entirely possible that your population will skew in a random direction -- butterfly effect, essentially.

      Only in the complete absence of an evolutionary pressure. Have you ever even done one of these systems? And why didn't you answer when I asked you if you'd read Darwin's books?

      Without continuous outside testing and some way of rectifying these anomalies, you may in the end have AIs that are

      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
    24. Re:Genetic Algorithms by Unordained · · Score: 1

      Gills: you never proved you knew why we lack them, only that you have an idea for one possible reason. I'm not the one with the burden of proof here.

      Fallacy: logical error. Yes, you took a wrong turn in your reasoning, inferring a goal from a trend (see below.) And your link is useless, to boot. Congrats.

      Religious nut: no, actually, that's poisoning the well, by attributing an evil purpose to my method in order to attack the method. And it doesn't work. But then, as we've learned from political ads, being loud is more useful than being right.

      Reversal: I specifically deny perfection, so your notion that statistics trump perfection really only serves my point. But thanks. (A friend of mine calls this "rephrase and riposte", and we think it's cute. http://www.pseudotheos.com/view_object.php?object_ id=804.)

      Evidence: no, actually, we don't have evidence of this happening hundreds of thousands of times. What we have is evidence of variations that happen to be congruent with a particular set of theories, thus failing to disprove those theories. Finding theories that explain a lot, seem plausible, fit the data, and aren't ugly hacks is all well and good -- but the data should not be equated with the theory. You have data currently most-usefully explained by natural selection. You do not have a historical record of it actually happening.

      Citations: this one's funny. It's your first citation of any project name, and you're whining that I'm not providing citations? Ooh, and a straw man, attributing to me the accusation that these methods are incapable of producing useful results, too. Nice. Yes, actually, I have read some of Darwin's work -- no, not every word of it. Despite your questioning, you failed to assert the same of yourself, so to be even, have you read Darwin's work? And yes, I have built a primitive evolving system. No, it wasn't successful. No, that's not proof that I don't know what I'm talking about, but I expect you'll assert otherwise. And no, I don't need to cite works exemplifying failures in the AI world to show, logically, that the system can be skewed. It's intrinsic to the process. This isn't the same as saying it'll always fail, merely that you have no guarantees. At this point, you may feel free to cite statistics showing that evolving systems succeed 99% of the time, thus proving my point. Or you can try to logically prove that it's impossible for an evolving system to get stuck in a rut, but I predict that you'll fail.

      Your reversi example (if we can call it that -- you don't cite any publications of your own, so we just have to trust that you're not bluffing) does not disprove that these systems can get terribly unstable -- merely that your one example did not seem to, in your own opinion. You didn't disprove the logic, you merely provided a data point. Exaggerated.

      Skipping vacuous blabbering. You'll whine, nobody cares. (Apparent tactic: use short questions or assertions that will take forever to answer properly, making any response either pedantic or vague. Possibly effective. Nice work.)

      To come back to the original point, no, you cannot assert that the emergent properties of a system demonstrate a goal inherent to the system. A trend is not a purpose. The individual goals making up the process are merely cogs in the machine. Bacteria (this is a stretch) may desire to individually maximize their ability to gather food, but this does not imply that natural selection desires it.

      At least you've quietly stopped asserting that the appendix will disappear in 10k generations, simply because natural selection always does what you think it should do. (Paraphrase.)

      I'm not sure how you got the karma level you have, considering your public message history. You're not wrong just because you're a troll, but a troll, you are. I actually deserve to be moderated down for feeding a troll, but I elect to put you in your place.

    25. Re:Genetic Algorithms by stonecypher · · Score: 1

      Gills: you never proved you knew why we lack them

      I don't have to. That we lack them makes my point, no matter how you look at it.

      Fallacy: logical error.

      Bzzt. Read it again.

      And your link is useless, to boot.

      Perhaps, if you spend so little time reading it (or, I suspect, none at all) that you can still make the mistake above.

      Religious nut: no, actually, that's poisoning the well, by attributing an evil purpose to my method in order to attack the method.

      Straw man by fallacy. I did no such thing. Show me a quote if you want to make an accusation like that; it did not happen. Besides, there's no "method" at hand here; it's a question of disagreeing with what you said, and explaining by allegory. That you want to cast it into something it isn't is a clear exposition of desperation. This is a none too subtle form of ad Hominem.

      Reversal: I specifically deny perfection, so your notion that statistics trump perfection really only serves my point.

      Saying you deny it carries none of the weight of actually making your case. You've yet to do that. Slandering someone for pointing out errors in your original statement does nothing to obviate those errors. This is textbook red herring.

      A friend of mine calls this "rephrase and riposte"

      I'd call this ad Hominem, except your friend is neither an authority nor in fact particularly interesting. Why are you so desperate to avoid answering the questions I asked you?

      Evidence: no, actually, we don't have evidence of this happening hundreds of thousands of times.

      Ignorance of data is not absence of data.

      Finding theories that explain a lot, seem plausible, fit the data, and aren't ugly hacks is all well and good -- but the data should not be equated with the theory.

      Yes yes, you keep handwaving about these pseudoideals of argument. Nonetheless, the errors I pointed out in your arguments still exist, and you've now through two replies managed to get angrier and angrier without actually taking time to address the questions asked you.

      Dodge it all you want; your argument is still flawed, and ignoring the holes doesn't make them go away.

      Citations: this one's funny. It's your first citation of any project name, and you're whining that I'm not providing citations?

      Wait, let me get this straight. You make an unfounded argument. I make a founded reply. You proceed to complain that I don't defend my statements? Tu quoque, except of course not actually tu quoque. I've backed up several points, not one as you claim. You've backed up none, and dodged every single concern addressed you.

      This is nothing more than a thin veneer and an attempt at spin. If you won't answer the questions asked you, stop replying. This is meant to be a discussion board, not a soapbox.

      Ooh, and a straw man, attributing to me the accusation that these methods are incapable of producing useful results, too.

      That's not what a straw man is, and I said no such thing. Please stop making accusations without quotes. You've made nothing but groundless personal attacks. If you want to be taken seriously, don't say "oh there's a straw man," point it out with a quote, and take the time to explain it.

      You'll find the reason that you've managed to avoid that three messages in a row, despite that I've already noted the behavior, and the reason that you'll almost certainly do it in the upcoming response, is that you don't actually have specific concerns to address. It's a bunch of hot air. You like throwing around the names of fallacies you don't understand because it makes you feel smart.

      In the future, if you want to pretend there's a fallacy, have the decency to quote it.

      Yes, actually, I have read some of Darwin's work

      I don't believe you.

      no, not every word of it.

      I asked you about one specific work, not "all of it." Don't pretend th

      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
    26. Re:Genetic Algorithms by Unordained · · Score: 1

      Meta: I'm pretty sure this discussion isn't evolving toward a solution. And I propose that we move it offsite to email; without an audience, we're less likely to make bold claims and accusations. This isn't a matter of saving face; at this point, I doubt anyone's watching anyway. But at this point, we probably take up well over a page just to ourselves, and we don't deserve it.

      Non-meta: You must have misunderstood me at some point, and I'll take the blame (if it makes it easier) by saying I must have been unclear. I'm not sure that repeating myself (nor quoting you) will really fix that, but if you insist...

      Your assertion: "That's why we don't have gills, tails or fur anymore: they take energy and resources to make, so children that don't have them get by on less."
      My response: You may be right, but I highly doubt you have any historical record of the process. You're merely guessing, and I'm telling you it's only a guess. Every event has a nearly infinite number of possible causes, and you've picked one arbitrarily. I argue for a lack of assertion, you argue for an assertion. The burden of proof is on you. It's not even an important point, why not let it go?

      Your falsehood_and_fallacy URL returns a page starting with: Sorry, but there's no such page. You may have followed an inaccurate or outdated link. Maybe you just sent the wrong URL? I'll read it again when you provide a better URL.

      You must have taken the "scientists and creationists" thing to heart just a bit too much. I'm not painting you as a religious nut as you claim, I'm merely pointing out that many people, on all sides of the issue, tend to assume that things are 'perfect' (or near-perfect) simply because they are the way they are. But I certainly wasn't claiming you to be a religious nut simply because you seemed to see things the same way both some scientists and (all?) creationists do. That's a leap I won't take.

      I'm not seeing the slander, but okay. Nor the red herring. This may be the result of a simple misunderstanding; perhaps we agreed, you thought we disagreed, so you stated my position to be the opposite of itself so you could state that you agreed with my position while disagreeing with me? I'm a wee bit confused how that went. You say If you don't know statistics, you may not understand what that means, but it's quite poison to this notion of perfection of yours. As I was trying to point out, the process has no concept of perfection. So ... I think we wound up agreeing. The point of this was that without perfection, the above assumption (about things being perfect because they exist) cannot be true. (Which, skipping a bit, implies that just because you see a way things could improve, doesn't mean they will. Why is this important? Only because you stated the appendix -will- disappear in a certain number of generations, because you see no reason for it to stick around.)

      I'm no longer sure which question you think I'm avoiding (I'm replying in order, mind you) ... but that section wasn't an ad hominem. There was exactly one of those (at least intended) -- and that was the 'troll' bit (for which I'll apologize farther down.)

      I'm not ignoring the data. I'm saying the data proves nothing, it merely supports for the time being. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence -- other, undiscovered data (or, as some claim, a lot of data we already have) could make natural selection seem as silly of a claim as spontaneous generation. But I'm not saying it will, nor that it has. Merely that supportive data proves nothing. You haven't disagreed with this, and I don't disagree with you. (Except when you say That said, over the course of the fossil record, and recently in life, we have evidence of this sort of thing happening hundreds of thousands of times. "Happening" must refer to natural selection; although I don't disagree with this being likely the case, I think we could take the same data and say it was evidence that God had make lots of

  16. Re:I just don't understand. by Triple+Click · · Score: 1

    *blinks*

    ...yeah...

    (slowly backs away)

  17. Game AI by cl0secall · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm still waiting for FPS bots that use Maze Theory instead of "waypoints" for navigation. If only I could code worth a damn...

    --
    Model 551, Chambered in 6mm
    1. Re:Game AI by jthayden · · Score: 1

      The only problem with that is it doesn't simulate reality either. Guards and such do walk the same path over and over again. Not as precisely perhaps. But I used to be able to set my watch by when security would walk by in college.

    2. Re:Game AI by cl0secall · · Score: 1

      True, but I'd like to at least have good navigation (as opposed to a quick kludge) before moving on to more complex areas such as that. At one point I had an idea for a bot for "Counter-Strike" (of all things) which would take predictability and repetition into account. Indeed, in that game I took advantage of the bots' pathing predictability to increase my survivial rate.

      I did observe some limited success in having bots' combat behavior closely match that of how I'd seen people playing, at least in a LAN match. (That was NNbot or TeamBot).

      --
      Model 551, Chambered in 6mm
  18. Re:I just don't understand. by gardyloo · · Score: 2, Funny

    Bad, BAD Zoot!

  19. Settlers of Catan by kwieland+in+stl · · Score: 1

    A recent take on this is the Settlers of Catan. Interesting AI work in negotiations. Never saw the end results though (thesis), anybody?

    http://www.infolab.northwestern.edu/infolab/

    Thankfully all over the web now due to:

    http://sourceforge.net/projects/jsettlers

  20. Some people have all the luck. by RealAlaskan · · Score: 1, Funny
    Artificial Intelligence (AI) is a very hot topic today in computer circles because of the interest in modeling behaviors on machines that we find in nature.

    Man! I never find any machines in Nature, except the occasional stripped car with the windshield shot out. Where is this guy finding his machines? It must be a great place to go hiking.

    1. Re:Some people have all the luck. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      We are all machines.

    2. Re:Some people have all the luck. by Bellum+Aeternus · · Score: 1
      Apple orchards...

      OK, that was bad...

      --
      - I voted for Nintendo and against Bush
    3. Re:Some people have all the luck. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because you live in Alaska. Try Kentucky.

    4. Re:Some people have all the luck. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's a bonofide machine for you:

      http://www.arn.org/docs/mm/flag_labels.jpg

      And yes this machine (look up the definition yourself) exists in nature. That is just one of the countless machines that exist within life.

  21. Re:Pong AI by flowerysong · · Score: 1
    's not unbeatable.
    ball.X = paddle.X + 35;
  22. What I'd Like in AI by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 2, Funny

    What I'd like is an AI component for Windows smart enough to identify problems in the OS and fix them before they byte me.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    1. Re:What I'd Like in AI by Mr.+Mikey · · Score: 1

      "I believe in Intelligent Design. It was all done by Benevolent Space Aliens. How else can you explain Tom Cruise?"

      Benevolent?!?!?!?

      --
      wants to be the first monkey to touch the monolith
    2. Re:What I'd Like in AI by bhadreshl · · Score: 1

      Its called Autonomous Computing. IBM is working on this.
      http://www.research.ibm.com/autonomic/

    3. Re:What I'd Like in AI by LarsG · · Score: 1

      One day they forgot the morning coffee before going to work. Happens.

      --
      If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
    4. Re:What I'd Like in AI by Infinityis · · Score: 1
      What I'd like is an AI component for Windows smart enough to identify problems in the OS and fix them before they byte me.

      Don't worry, those technologies are on they way, they'll be here in a bit.

    5. Re:What I'd Like in AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Im sorry but this isnt going to happen. It wouldnt be in the interest of Microsoft to program something that would recommend you to switch to Linux.

    6. Re:What I'd Like in AI by Quadraginta · · Score: 1

      But...then you'd need another, smarter AI to identify and fix problems in the AI that's monitoring Windows, and another, even smarter AI to monitory that one....

      while (!fork()) { init_AI(getppid(),++intelligence) ; } ;

      hmmm.....

  23. And... by cbreaker · · Score: 2

    ..your point?

    --
    - It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
  24. Re:Pong AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that's not AI... that's cheating... the ball should just follow the game physics... you can only move the paddles...

  25. Re:Pong AI by iamdrscience · · Score: 4, Funny
    Here's my phenomenal AI for NES "Track and Field":
    while (1){
    controller1.pressA();
    controller1.pressB();
    }
  26. zerg by Lord+Omlette · · Score: 1

    The 1st "AI Game Programming Wisdom" was actually pretty good. You could tell it was good by how quickly LaMothe's label put together a cheap imitation, "AI Techniques for Game Programming".

    (I never read the 2nd "AI Game Programming Wisdom"... laziness on my part.)

    --
    [o]_O
  27. Or forget about all that.. by wfberg · · Score: 1

    Or forget about all that artificial intelligence, and instead of spending precious programmer time and money on it, let your players pay you for the privilege of taking on other (paying!) customers online!

    --
    SCO employee? Check out the bounty
  28. Alternate Shopping Choice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In case you are boycotting B&N, you can buy the book here: Artificial Intelligence for Computer Games

  29. AI today by Quirk · · Score: 2, Funny
    I just want to comment on how AI proponents have fulfilled their promises... oh...just a minute... I seem to have left my car hovering over the pad, oh, it's ok, it's gone off to recharge itself and have the antigrav adjusted.

    As I was saying about AI...oh, my Barbie XXX has just come in to bring me a drink, of course my Barbie has limited AI but is saturated with artificial sex hormones to pander to my every whim... but not now Barbie, daddy's busy...

    Now about the promise fulfilled by AI proponents... oh damn look at the time...If I'm going to make the lightspeed shuttle to Mars I pretty much have to teleport out now, we're going white water rafting in the Valles Marineris.

    Anyway good job on the AI.

    --
    "Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
    Cohen
    1. Re:AI today by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      That reminds me of a joke:

      Q: What do you call it when a blond dyes her hair brunette?
      A: Artificial Intelligence.

  30. Re:Pong AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can beat that, here is some artificial intelligent for Xenogears (may also apply to Metal Gear Solid).

    while(1) {
    press(X);
    }
  31. Only Ten Years Away by rlp · · Score: 2, Insightful

    True artificial intelligence is only ten years away - and has been for the past three decades. AI has been a huge disappointment. Most 'AI' problems that have been solved have been solved via brute force combined with the advance of Moore's law. From what I've seen of game 'AI' - it's more a mimicing of intelligence and not very impressive mimicing at that (not much more so than the 'Eliza' class programs of the 70's).

    That's my 2 cents - flame away.

    --
    [Insert pithy quote here]
    1. Re:Only Ten Years Away by tcopeland · · Score: 1

      > it's more a mimicing of intelligence and
      > not very impressive mimicing

      So true. I remember watching a video of the "Lord of the Rings" game and hearing the game producer saying "Look at this! The characters have actual feelings and personalities - they're actually happy about winning this battle!"

      Come on, fellas. Don't mistake state tables and switch statements for feelings and personalities and intelligence. It's OK to be enthusiastic, but don't believe your own marketing materials.

    2. Re:Only Ten Years Away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I don't think you've said anything really controverial. Except, not many people are promising "True AI" (or strong AI) like they were in the 70s and 80s. AI has moved from trying to create real intelligence to applying it to very specific problem domains, typically ones that can already be solved using existing methods.

      However, AI that merely mimicks true intelligence is still valuable. For example, if I have an Eliza program that I'm able to converse with, maybe it's even good enough to pass a Turing test, does it matter if it even "understands" what it or I am saying? Why?

      I agree that the lack of any strong AI advancement has been hugely disappointing and little sad that we won't see BladeRunner robot level intelligence in our lifetimes. There's hope though! With research being much more focused than it used to, we should at least realize *some* benefits of all the money that was thrown at it.

    3. Re:Only Ten Years Away by Surt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No flames, you're totally right on. Except I'll say that we're considerably more than 10 years away from really seeing decent AI in games. The problem is that games are much too computationally intensive for an AI to analyze effectively. Have a look at this paper for the kind of computational horsepower that went into teaching a neural network to play checkers .

      http://scholar.google.com/url?sa=U&q=http://www.cs .nott.ac.uk/~gxk/courses/g5baim/papers/checkers-00 2/TNNKChellapillaAndDBFogelText.pdf

      Then consider what will be required to learn to play a game with a complexity level like age of empires. Dynamically.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    4. Re:Only Ten Years Away by RM6f9 · · Score: 1

      Is this where some helpful soul re-posts the link to "The Chinese Room" paper?

      I mean, how well have we defined "real" intelligence, to be able to differentiate "Artificial"?

      --
      Take the 90-Day Challenge! http://rwmurker.bodybyvi.com/
    5. Re:Only Ten Years Away by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      For the most part I agree with the Parent: humanlike AI (which may or may not be "true" AI) is far too computationally intensive to be practical with our current level of technology. However, consider the possibility that we may discover at some point that we've been approaching the problem from the wrong angle, or left out some critical element, or just never tried organizing the connections a certain way. In other words, it may be an issue of design, not brute force.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    6. Re:Only Ten Years Away by Surt · · Score: 1

      There are actually fairly fundamental computer science limits that suggest that this is probably not the case.

      Consider the checkers playing program. How small, in terms of bytes, can the description of the AI that plays a game such as checkers possibly be? The AI for checkers uses n-square in the number of tiles on the board (64x64 = 4096), and uses more than one byte per node. It took an enormous amount of computing power to train those nodes. Suppose you could get it down to linear, so only 64 nodes, of one byte each. You've only bought yourself perhaps a thousandfold decrease in the computing power required, and that's still just to play checkers.

      I think it's pretty clear that even given massive advances in our understanding of AI, we'll still need huge improvements in computing power before we see big improvements to the AI behavior we see in games. Good AI is currently in the millions to billions of times of the computing resources available, and I think at best we can hope to reduce that to thousands. That kind of computing power might be available in twenty years, barring a major breakthrough in hardware.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    7. Re:Only Ten Years Away by Silburn_Luke · · Score: 1

      At one level you are correct and a large part of this was (and is) down to some incredibly naive assumptions about the complexity of 'intelligence' and the nature of the problems that AI throws up.

      However (and you knew there was a however, right?) there is a countervailing tendency whereby any of the sub-problems that get solved by the AI research community as they decompose the problem get redefined as "not really intelligence - we don't know what intelligence is, but clearly it can't be that". As you can imagine, this sort of thing (especially when combined with "you're always ten years away" comments) winds up the AI guys I know something rotten.

      Regards
      Luke

      --
      #include witty_one_liner.h
    8. Re:Only Ten Years Away by mcvos · · Score: 1

      You're listening to the wrong people. Strong AI (which is probably what you mean) has always been more than 10 years away. The last 20 years, serious researchers have been seriously doubting whether it's a worthwhile goal at all. Much better to make AI that's really good at specific tasks. We have plenty of human-level intelligences on the planet already.

      Ofcourse there will always be wild-eyed prophets with outrageous claims, but you should know better than to listen to them.

      mcv.

    9. Re:Only Ten Years Away by stonecypher · · Score: 1

      True artificial intelligence is only ten years away - and has been for the past three decades.

      You know, it's funny how often people make smarmy comments like that. What respectable AI researcher have you ever, even once, seen make the claim that AI is only ten years away?

      Someone said that to Bert Dreyfuss at a conference at the Univ. Pittsburgh once. He had them thrown out of the room. Why? Because AI is only a "disappointment" to people that invent goals that the researchers never claimed, then watch those invented goals fail, then claim that AI is useless.

      Did you know that your car has more than a dozen components modelled on techniques that derive from modern AI research? Those antilock brakes, for example. If you have a Ford, the interior shape of your combustion engine was determined with a genetic algorithm. If you have a GM, it was determined with simulated annealing.

      Just because you're ignorant of the goals and progress of a field doesn't mean there aren't goals or progress. The failure is not AI as a field, but you as a journalist.

      Most 'AI' problems that have been solved have been solved via brute force combined with the advance of Moore's law.

      This is simple ignorance. No amount of processing horsepower has any impact on any aspect of AI research, nor has it since the 70s. An Apple ][ is enough for every technique in modern use. Stop pretending to know things you don't actually know.

      From what I've seen of game 'AI'

      By context I suspect that's virtually nothing. Chances are that you'd fail a context-limited Turing test with Smaug. AI tools are in common use identifying 1-800 numbers and giving directions to movie theaters, booking tickets, finding routes through traffic for Acura customers, designing industrial tools and vehicles, finding new plastic composites for your bike, all sorts of crap.

      This is a little like saying electric motors could never be used to make a vehicle fleet, why look at that HotWheels. Video game simulated agents are about ten miles behind the rear guard in AI techniques. Q*Bert does not make you a researcher.

      That's my 2 cents - flame away.

      My, my, how wise you must be, to slander anyone who replies to you before they've even replied. I wonder if that's because you know you're full of crap, or if you're just so universally unable to restrict your own statements to knowledge that you actually believe people react to one another the way they react to you?

      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
    10. Re:Only Ten Years Away by rlp · · Score: 1

      Let me respond to some of the comments in this thread:

      First off, I'm not an AI researcher nor do I play one on TV. I've been to a few AI conferences including IJCAI. I've worked on speech recognition projects and a couple of rule based systems.

      In the 80's, Japanese industry pushed by MITI poured hundreds of millions (perhaps billions) of dollars into the Fifth Generation project. Apart from a few commercial applications of fuzzy logic - they did not get much to show for their investment. To date this is the most spectacular failure of AI. But not the only one.

      In the nineties, there was an effort to develop systems that had could 'understand' the natural world - for instance understand 'common-sense' physics. Many of these projects ran for years - but did achieve much of anything.

      I worked on some systems that were rule based. They met their design objectives. But rule-based systems tend to be a real pain to maintain. Get enough rules for the system to be 'interesting' and it becomes a nightmare to debug and to system test. A number of commercial rule based systems have been replaced using more traditional (modeling) techniques.

      There have been some notable successes - but as I mentioned - mostly due to Moore's law. Playing chess was considered a classic AI problem. And excellent world class chess playing programs exist. The best of these programs run on specialized hardware with a large number of very fast processors. Clever programming helps trim the search tree - but make no mistake - this is more a testament to brute force + fast parallel processing, than to AI software that 'understands' chess.

      Speech recognition and automatic language translation have benefited from fast processors and elegant pattern matching techniques. But these systems have no understanding of context, which quickly becomes apparent in the event of any sort of ambiguity.

      But back to game AI. In most FPS games, the 'AI' is something like the following:

      - Guard A has his back to you and is talking to guard B
      - You blast guard B's head off with a rocket launcher
      - Guard A looks around, says "What was that?" Searches around for a few minutes.
      - Finally guard A says "Oh, well I guess it was nothing", turns his back on you and continues his conversation with the now dead guard B

      My daughter plays with popular and charming "Animal Crossing" game. Clever programming, cute graphic rendering, a big state table, and a large repertoire of possible text responses helps bring the characters to "life". At least until the game is played for a while. At the point that the characters start repeating themselves, the illusion of 'intelligence' disappears.

      One of my former bosses once said "If at first you don't succeed - redefine 'success'". AI has not 'succeeded' because it's a REALLY REALLY HARD set of problems. Let's not kid ourselves by lowering the bar.

      --
      [Insert pithy quote here]
  32. Still AI by Flamesplash · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It is still AI though. A Neural Network stops learning at some point, but it's still AI right? It's just a difference between per learning and lazy learning.

    Maybe we need some modifiers for games, Active or Static AI.

    --
    "Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
    1. Re:Still AI by stonecypher · · Score: 1

      A Neural Network stops learning at some point, but it's still AI right?

      No. It never was and it never will be. Neural Networks are special-case massively parallel adaptive filters. They're interesting research tools with broad and powerful implications.

      They are also not self-aware.

      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
    2. Re:Still AI by Flamesplash · · Score: 1

      Then why are they taught in almost every AI text book as well in Tom Mitchell's Machine Learning text?

      Though I will accept the adage that "Once an AI problem is solved it's no longer AI."

      --
      "Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
    3. Re:Still AI by stonecypher · · Score: 1

      For the same reason that spark plugs are taught in Mechanic school, even though spark plugs aren't cars.

      Though I will accept the adage that "Once an AI problem is solved it's no longer AI."

      I wouldn't.

      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
  33. SMB AI by solarlux · · Score: 1

    > AI for Computer Games begins with a brief introduction to the historic roles that AI has played in games such as Pac Man and Mario

    I actually got a copy of the original SMB source code. Hopefully Nintendo won't mind me revealing the algorithm for the koopa trooper's AI:

    1. walk until wall is encountered
    2. reverse direction
    3. goto step 1

    1. Re:SMB AI by FunkSoulBrother · · Score: 1

      hey, as I recall the red ones were smart enough to not walk off a cliff, and rather turn around.

    2. Re:SMB AI by Iamthewalrus · · Score: 1

      You're just choosing a particularly easy AI component. What about the Hammer Bros.?

      int i = 0;
      while (TRUE) {
      Throw_Hammer();
      if (i %5 == 0)
              Jump();
      }

      --
      Help prevent the slashdot effect; stop reading the articles.
    3. Re:SMB AI by rubberbando · · Score: 1

      The smartest enemies in SMB1 were the Bloobers (the squids). Those things knew exactly how to make your life miserable when underwater.

      --
      DEAD DEAD DEAD DELETE ME
    4. Re:SMB AI by deizel · · Score: 1

      i++;

      --
      d.
  34. Another good one... by tcopeland · · Score: 4, Informative

    ...is M. Tim Jones' AI Application Programming. It's got all sorts of predator/prey and pathfinding stuff in there.

    The code examples are in C, although I ported some of them from the 1st edition of the book to Ruby.

    1. Re:Another good one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      awesome link and work! thanks!

    2. Re:Another good one... by tcopeland · · Score: 1

      Thank you!

  35. 1999? by Viking+Coder · · Score: 1

    If you look on amazon, you see two books by John David Funge:

    AI for Computer Games and Animation: A Cognitive Modeling Approach (Hardcover) - August 1999, 220 pages

    Artificial Intelligence For Computer Games: An Introduction (Hardcover) - July 2004, 160 pages

    So is the same book twice (slightly shortened), or what?

    --
    Education is the silver bullet.
  36. AI varies from game to game by CrazyJim1 · · Score: 1

    Until we get to the point where we have a standardized 3d world toolset from which we build games from, AI will always be second thought.

    Normally AI involves a lot of cheating, like the Street Fighter 2 always block to the Warcraft3, everything costs 1 gold for the computer.

    We've only just moved into the 3d era of video games recently, and we're not close to standardizing the 3d game development process, so we're even further away from writing effective AI. Sure you can write entirely complex AI that involves flocking and friendship, but if your game isn't designed to make use of it, people probably wouldn't even notice.

    1. Re:AI varies from game to game by SammyJ · · Score: 1

      What does having a "standardized 3d world toolset" have to do with AI development?

    2. Re:AI varies from game to game by Anita+Coney · · Score: 1

      What I think he means is that right now the focus is on creating realistic 3d worlds. In other words, making it look pretty. It's not until that goal is met that the industry will focus on something else such as AI.

      --
      If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
    3. Re:AI varies from game to game by Shakesphere · · Score: 1

      Damn. I've been working on a 2d game called "Human Farm In It." It is based on some guy's shorty story idea that I'm stealing. Basically you play as a sick martial arts trainer on a clone farm. I was really hoping to have A.I. in it, but because it's 2d I guess I can't now. Are you sure that I need a standardized 3d world toolset? I hope your mistaken.

      --
      "I'm not the street on operas" - CrazyJim1
    4. Re:AI varies from game to game by Sigma+7 · · Score: 1
      Warcraft3, everything costs 1 gold for the computer.

      No, it only costs one gold for the faction. And even then, it's only used to help campaign AI player (which is not capable of expanding beyond it's initial borders, among having other limitations.)

      If this were true with a standard skirmish AI, then it wouldn't be possible to choke the AI from well-needed resources.

      We've only just moved into the 3d era of video games recently, and we're not close to standardizing the 3d game development process, so we're even further away from writing effective AI.
      Galactic Civilizations, a strategy game, has an acceptable AI (which runs as crippled by default - it's that strong.)

      Likewise, Operation Flashpoint has an acceptable unit AI. While the player generally can defeat AI players, this is generally caused by the limited vision of the enemies.

      Both of these games have an AI player that is trusteh to be effective enough. The actuol problem with AI development is that some developers insert a lobotomized version rather than doing proper development.
  37. Anyone ran NERO? by DrugCheese · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I just ran into this a couple hours ago today. Haven't tried it at all yet. NERO is an artificial intelligence game in which you train your armys AI to react to certain situations. Then you pit your trained army up against other peoples armies and let the AI battle it out. Looked very interesting.

    --
    *DrugCheese rants*
    1. Re:Anyone ran NERO? by sn0wflake · · Score: 1
    2. Re:Anyone ran NERO? by fbartho · · Score: 1

      twas mentioned on slashdot a month back :) you should read more... lol I think it was even Duped!

      http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/27/ 2129214&tid=206&tid=10

      --
      Gravity Sucks
  38. Re:I just don't understand. by Mynorrrr · · Score: 1

    It's a post to the wrong article! But even then I had to read it twice to make sure it didm't fit in. Oops sorry! Pardon the pun!

  39. Re: Spore (corrected links) by Gondola · · Score: 1

    It's not AI. The coolest part of the game sounds like the adaptive technology for animation, which is really an amazing, but logical, result of the requirement for faster development and more and richer content. The rest of the game is, the designer admits, based on pre-existing favorites such as Pac Man, Populous, and Civilization.

  40. Re:Pong AI by TedTschopp · · Score: 1

    On a side note, this reminds me of a programming language I use to use back in the day which had true = -1 and false = 0. The reason for this was that the last bit in a signed int was used to determine the if the number was +/-. And a boolean was an signed int of length 1. So it was -1/0 for true/false. Anyone know how common this is elsewhere?

    --
    Fantasy remains a human right; we make in our measure and in our derivative mode... -- JRR Tolkien
  41. Why Games need AI by Starseeka · · Score: 1

    I think that in order for a game to have any play value, it has to have a challenging opponent. The graphics can be as pretty as you want, but nooen will play it if the other guy just sits there to get blown away. IT will be really cool when the AI can have good teamwork. Things like supressive fire, ambushes, flanking manuvers etc. The only way to get this right now is to play oonline, and then you have to deal with 14 year olds saying "WTF neewb, W|-|y do you ch34t and H4X!?!?! GayFag!!!!!"

    1. Re:Why Games need AI by SheeEttin · · Score: 1

      This is why I don't play most FPSs. Guys walk around and wait to be shot. (Can you say "Halo" and "Sniper"?)

    2. Re:Why Games need AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know about people online being smarter than the singleplayer AI.

      The Battlefield 2 AI has more self preservation programed into it than the online opponents. I have not yet once seen the AI drive off a cliff with a jeep load of soldiers screaming " weee he he thats fun "

  42. Re:Pong AI by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

    The question you're asking isn't really "is -1 == true and 0 == false common," it's "is using a signed int of length 1 for booleans common?" After all, if your boolean is one bit long, "true" is 1b whether it's signed or not: (unsigned int)true == 1b && (signed int)true == 1b.

    --

    "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  43. Why are there so many books about AI in games? by GamblerZG · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's strange. Modern game industry is obsessed with graphics, yet there is very few books that can teach you how to make a decent 3d engine (at least, I was not able to find one yet). AI, on the other hand, seems to be the most common topic.

    1. Re:Why are there so many books about AI in games? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

  44. hot topic?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Artificial Intelligence (AI) is a very hot topic today in computer circles because of the interest in modeling behaviors on machines that we find in nature.

    AI is not a hot topic. It hasn't recovered from the 1970s snake oil peddling stage, and it is still looked down as an overpromiser and underdeliverer of goods, even though some real neat and exciting stuff is going on there.

    They'll have to fight hard to get rid of that image and that starts by continuing the shift from shoddy-but-cool-sounding work towards more measurable science. Certain areas like theorem proving have fully made the shift, others like onthologies seems still mired in the promise-lots deliver-little stage.

  45. Re:Pong AI by CoffeeJedi · · Score: 1

    MY GOD MAN!!!
    are you insane!?!?

    an AI like this could conquer the Earth!!!!!

    --
    May you be touched by His Noodly Appendage. RAmen.
  46. Part of the problem by coolestdickofall · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Doesn't part of the problem come from the fact that true intelligence is based on a life time of learning and experience?? Every time someone is faced with a decision, they subconsciously compare the situation to previous experiences to help make the correct choice.. With game A.I., the programmers are sort of trying to cram a life time of experience into so many lines of code.. Seems an exercise in futility to me.

    1. Re:Part of the problem by rm999 · · Score: 1

      Not just a lifetime of learning - eons of natural selection have put a lot of inherent knowledge and intelligence in us.

  47. flatlanders can't see 3d world by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The is part of the reason we can't define what makes up our intelligence/thought processes.

  48. Re:I just don't understand. by CoffeeJedi · · Score: 1

    its not on the wrong article, he's making fun of that article

    --
    May you be touched by His Noodly Appendage. RAmen.
  49. Re:Pong AI by Traa · · Score: 1
    Your algorithm is not AI, it is CI (Computer Intelligence). What the gaming world is looking for is neither AI nor CI but SI (Simulated Intelligence). Something along the lines of:
    if (losses > wins)
        paddle.Y = ball.Y
    else
        paddle.Y = ball.Y + 1
    Making sure that the computer beats you more then half the time. This will keep you interested a lot longer.
  50. Re:Pong AI by Hangeron · · Score: 1

    That's funny, but it doesn't model intelligence, just inhuman reaction speed. Better AI would predict where to set the paddle.

  51. Mother Nature's not perfect, either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Enlightening because even the most basic attempts at simulating intelligence in machines makes us realize how vastly superior Nature's machines are. And frustrating because of how difficult it is proving for us to reach an adequately satisfactory understanding of "real" intelligence/consciousness inspite of all the research/effort we've been putting in.

    Not really. People just keep raising the bar for what counts as "intelligence", redefining it to mean: "what people can do, and machines can't".

    People who could do hard computations used to be considered "smart". Until calculators were invented. Calculators aren't smart.

    Chess used to be the sign of a profound thinker; someone wise and deep. Until a computer beat the world's best chess grand master; now it's just a considered a "toy problem", not "real AI".

    Speech recognition used to be considered a sign of true AI. Now that we've got machines answering telephones and directing calls better than the average minimum wage immigrant secretary, we're going to start calling that "not real AI" soon, too.

    Systems that could learn were considered AI. Now we've got machines that can teach themselves to walk every time they're turned on; but that's not "real AI", either.

    We'll never have "real AI" until we stop moving the goalposts, and stop glorifying nature unfairly.

    Let's face it, Mother Nature also made some really *stupid* creatures. Dogs that chase their tail, catch it, and then get angry and confused because something just bit them. Rabbits that try to "hide" in the middle of a highway, thinking if they crouch down on the pavement the cars can't see them. Moose that derail trains, trying out outrun them, instead of moving off the tracks.

    AI's got a long way to go, granted. But it's not fair to just think of nature's geniuses when you see what she's accomplished. For every Einstein out there, there's a hundred village idiots. If an AI can outperform the idiots who wreck the curve, it may well average better performance than nature does.

    For example, if 90% of car crashes are due to drunk driving, an AI driving system that replaces human drivers will be safer, *even if* it is only 50% as good at handling traffic accidents as a regular person is still safer: because it eliminates the greatest risk to traffic safety by getting the drunks off the road. Nature can't easily perform that kind of optimization. We can. We should.

    So, really, are we that far from "real intelligence" in our systems? I'm not sure we are. The real problem is that a great deal of what's considered intelligence is largely a form of cultural prejudice.

    Early cave men probably considered the first farmers "stupid" for not eating food when they had the chance. Instead, they saved seeds that they could have eaten, despite the fact that plants grew anyway. You can almost hear our ancestors now: "Stupid agriculture! A waste of time! Eat while you can, or you'll die! Stupid farmers!!!"

    In retrospect, we can see how agriculture worked out well for us (it's one of our first successful technologies). But it's not hard to see why it could be considered "stupid" to our ancestors. So, if it's not obvious what's "stupid" and what's "smart", it's hard to say when we've build something with "intelligence", let alone "real intelligence". Intelligence often just means: "this behaviour refelects what I (or people of my culture) would do in this scenario".

    1. Re:Mother Nature's not perfect, either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There has been a consistent test for intelligence for 40 years. Get any machine (using any known algorithm) to solve 4th order Diopahntine equations. We solve them, no known algorithm can.

  52. Re:Pong AI by Surt · · Score: 1

    In the game industry, we used to write our AIs like this. They worked beautiful. Then some whiners came along and said 'The AI is only beating me because it's cheating!'

    And that's the reason AI is a tough subject today.

    --
    "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
  53. Re: Spore (corrected links) by FnH · · Score: 3, Informative

    It can be argued that once we know something can be programmed we stop thinking of it AI. A few years ago many would have claimed that a computer really should have achieved something intelligent when it beats a grandmaster at chess. Now, after the fact, we only think of it as a clever search routine.

    It might just be clever programming, but figuring out how to move an as good as random combination of parts so as to make a believable imitation of locomotion has a ring of intelligence to it.

    And that's perhaps the most mundane part of the game. If you believe everything that's written about it (large parts of it are probably hype), they're trying to achieve some form of emergent behaviour in many aspects of the game.

    I bet you could fill another nice book or two, just describing all the AI algorithms they used, and I wouldn't be surprised if there would be a few clever things in there that haven't been published before.

  54. Single vs Multi player by Pranadevil2k · · Score: 1

    While I agree that a multiplayer component is a good thing to have in a game, I think that making a strong single player experience should be the first and biggest priority for any game designers.

    Battlefield 1942/Vietnam/2 for example, were built as multiplayer first and foremost, and the single player was just the multiplayer game with bots. As far as I'm concerned, these games (and Star Wars Battlefront, the shameless clone) are pretty crappy. And then we look at Call of Duty, which is essentially just another WWII shooter, but the single player is incredibly deep, even if it is somewhat linear. That was a good game.

    1. Re:Single vs Multi player by jericho4.0 · · Score: 1
      Hey! Get your crazy ideas away from my game! I bought BF1942 solely for the multiplayer experience. I've never even tried the single player, and frankly, I have no idea why anyone would. I haven't played a single player game since Doom I. (maybe a bit of Rise of Nations and the like). For me, MP is gameing.

      I have nothing against you getting great single player games, but I want my games to focus on MP goodness.

      Where's the fun in pulling off a knife throw to the neck instakill against your computer? AI never panics like a 12 year old boy, maybe it fakes it, but you can't smell it. There's no point in letting the AI think you haven't seen them, or prioritizing targets by who reacted first, because your only fooling an algorithm. I've never played against an AI where my internal model of it was anything more than a simple checklist of behaviours.

      --
      "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
    2. Re:Single vs Multi player by maxpublic · · Score: 1

      I have nothing against you getting great single player games, but I want my games to focus on MP goodness.

      Well, if you're looking for opponents even dumber than your average game AI, MP is definitely the way to go....

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
  55. Remember Dungeon Keeper? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One night at about 4:30 am after playing a 12 hour solid stint the dungeonmasters voiceover comes across saying...

    "There is a large square soft object in your dwelling , you should lie down on it."

    Or very similar, can't remember the exact line but it made me laugh a lot, not least of all because it clearly knew how long I had been paying and what the local time was, quite clever.

    1. Re:Remember Dungeon Keeper? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "You know that low broad downy soft item of furniture in the next room? It has the power to cure fatigue and restore vitality."

      "You'll go blind you know..."

      "It is the witching hour! Curses are half-price."

      "Surely even dungeon keepers must retire to a lair of some description..."

      "Hello? Are you still there? The imps are about to lock up."

      "Your nocturnal perservierance has earned you a hidden gaming tip: GO TO BED"

      There's a bunch of other silly random stuff the mentor says, but I think these are all the ones he says when it's late. Eh, the text version really doesn't do justice to the recorded speech.

  56. I did the game AI for a few games by MarkWatson · · Score: 1, Informative

    I did the game AI for a few games (cancelled Nintendo U64 game, hovercraft racing game) and for a VR prototype for Disney. It was probably the most fun job I ever had - I do mostly server side Java development now which is not quite as interesting :-)

    I started out trying to write complex control code (a multi-agent system with modules for different behaviors/situations with a simply control agent to choose which module to give control to and for how long). The problem with this approach was that the game NPCs acted in complex and unpredictable ways - interesting behavior, but not predictable. It turns out that gamers want to learn how to react to game AIs. Anyway, I eventually got it right :-)

    BTW: why did I quit such a fun job? My wife and I had bought a home in the mountains of Northern Arizona and we eventually wanted to move. The stuff that I work on now can be done remotely.

  57. not very good and been pimped here before by cliffski · · Score: 1

    Why is this same book being pimped AGAIN on /.?
    after the first time I persuaded my boss to buy it. Several of us read it and thought:

    meh

    Im sick of books trying to ram ONE specific method for doing stuff down your throat. I dont need sample code, and I dont need to be told what to call my systems, I need IDEAS. Good AI is absed on good concepts, nothing mroe detailed. I recommend Steve Grands books if you want an AI book that actually makes you think.

    --
    DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
  58. Rubber-banding by jason.hall · · Score: 1

    My #1 most hated gaming "feature" is the rubber-banding that occurs in racing games. I hate being in the lead by 1/2 lap on the final lap, drive perfectly and STILL be surrounded by cars at the finish line. Yes, I know this is meant to add excitement to the finish, but if I drive well enough to have an insurmountable lead entering the final lap, dammit, let me enjoy it!!

  59. Re:Game 'AI'... - Farcry by Graemee · · Score: 1

    "Humans make mistakes, and so should the computer."
    IMHO there's two kinds of mistakes, coded or planned. The coded ones are like the bot who gets stuck running into a wall or messed up by a door. Not may games can allow you to purposely trick the AI. That's one of the things that I liked about Farcry. The guards were not super human. The guards could be tricked with a rock or some silence. They didn't make uber shot you in the head from the otherside of the map kills. They had to hear or see you to act.

    The only game I've played that the AI is as good is CS:source.

  60. Mod down, same kaleodijewel spam as always by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Referral ID included, trying to snag that dollar. Yet another "helpful" link spammed in the Book Review section.

  61. Quake AI by Durzel · · Score: 1

    Something I really liked which resonated with me for quite a while was how in Quake if a monster got hit by another monster inadvertently, it turned its attention away from you and tried to attack the thing that hit it. A monster-on-monster fight then ensued with the strongest winning out.

    I think the reason it struck a chord with me was that it was behaviour that I hadn't seen before. Prior to that every FPS I had played followed a very formulaic "monster sees player, monster attacks player, player or monster dies". Hardly intelligent behaviour.

    Max Payne is also something that stuck out - again not really from AI in the strictest sense of the word, more the simulation of realistic behaviour - like Quake. Come across two baddies and they start talking about how badass you are, and how they really don't want to come across you.

    All scripted of course, but wouldn't it be great if their fear and dialogue was based on how accurate/infamous you currently were? Maybe if you weren't that accurate or often got hit they could joke about you, or something.

    I am of the opinion that AI in games is not just about improving how monsters attack you, but the perception of them as living entities with self-preservation, their own agendas, etc.

    1. Re:Quake AI by Pranadevil2k · · Score: 1

      The original Doom presented this behavior as well. It was always fun to make Hell Barons fight eachother...

    2. Re:Quake AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do realize that even in Doom monsters could attack each other right?

    3. Re:Quake AI by bmorton · · Score: 1

      Actually, for the sake of nitpickiness, Hell Barons wouldn't fight each other. All enemies of like type were immune to their own projectiles and thus would not change focus upon getting hit by their brethren.

      -B

  62. Re:Pong AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Many programming languages use -1 for true because in a two's complement representation all the bits are set to 1, which means the language can use bitwise operators to implement boolean operators.

    I've never seen a language that supported signed one-bit integers. What was the one you used?

  63. Isn't it obvious? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One might assume that Slashdot makes money from it.

    At least, that would be my guess.

  64. Perspective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    True artificial intelligence is only ten years away - and has been for the past three decades. AI has been a huge disappointment.

    It took Mother Nature ten million years just to complete the design phase of human level NI (natural intelligence). Her production line is so slow that every single NI model takes a full 9 months to manufacture. Worse yet, after manufacturing, it takes a further ten to twenty years of painstaking intellectual configuration before it's viable for commerical use. At that point, the NI models have an average downtime of over 66%, spent in "sleep mode".

    Compared to nature, 30 years of basic design time for an AI system is nothing! It takes nearly that long just to configure a new NI, for goodness sake!

    The new AI models can be manufactured in days, not months. They ship pre-configured, without requiring that 20 years of cultural and intellectual configuration work. They have 99.9% uptime. Sure, the high end NI models have better functionality than the AI, but they cost more, and they're less reliable. A NI may suddenly stop working for no apparent reason: system crashes of this sort may be due to bugs known as "stress", "depression", or even "madness". NIs are also subject to so-called "viruses" that can totally destroy the entire production model if not caught in time. Even if detected, years of work may be required to repair the NI, and some problems may be so entrenched that the system is irrepairable.

    The new AI models are competitive with low end NIs, and are being used to replace NIs for such tasks as directing phone calls, taking dictation, reading to the disabled, and so forth. AIs are in the lead for certain specialized tasks, such as chess playing, mathematical computations, and high message relaying. Most AIs recover well from crashes, and viruses seldom, if ever, damage the physical hardware. Virus recovery can be accomplished in a short time, though configuration information may be lost.

    Most 'AI' problems that have been solved have been solved via brute force combined with the advance of Moore's law. From what I've seen of game 'AI' - it's more a mimicing of intelligence and not very impressive mimicing at that (not much more so than the 'Eliza' class programs of the 70's).

    Metaphysics aside, it doesn't matter how a problem gets solved so long as it gets solved.

    You can't really "mimic" intelligence: intelligence is just the ability to solve a given problem. If a system solves the problem in a way acceptable to humans, then then it has "human intelligence" with regards to that problem. It's that simple.

    There's nothing magic or infalible about human problem solving ability: we make mistakes like every other species, probably the one's we're adapted to make. Rabbits freeze in headlines; dogs bite their own tail and wonder why it hurts; humans make poor decisions too.

    It's true that computers are currently very bad relating to our local cultures, with regards to language processing, cultural idioms, and "common sense" cultural assumptions. Then again, so are many foreigners. It's one of the harder problems in AI, since we don't know how we do what we do.

    If psychology ever becomes a hard science, we'll know the concrete answer to many of those tricky questions about how our own deductive machinery worrks, and then encoding similar process in other systems won't be so challengeing. Until then, we're stuck with doing research to find out...

    I don't think it's fair to say AI has done poorly. I think it's done incredibly well. Just look at the things we do have!

    We've got automated translation working so well that I can read documents in foreign languages that I don't speak, thanks to Bablefish. It's not as good as a skilled translator, but it's better than an unskilled translator (like me!). We've got a chess program that beats grand masters at chess. We've got calculators that can compute logarithms on the fly: no log tables required!

    I recently phoned my local cell company, an

  65. No Good Definition Of Intelligence Exists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    It is remarkable that after at least 30 years of intensive searching, no good definition of intelligence exists. As any systems analyst or software developer knows, It's impossible to create something undefined in software.

    Until we have a clear definition of intelligence it is best to model only well-defined aspects of human and animal behavior.

  66. Pangea Soft Ultimate Game Programming Guide by hode · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Has anyone read Brian Greenstone's Game Programming Guide for Mac OS X? I'm curious if that is a better place to start than this book.

    Note: This is not a plug, I'm not the author, and your offtopic mods don't scare me. :)

  67. Just for games? by Jambon · · Score: 1
    I know this is a bit offtopic, but why is there not as much focus on making a decent AI for things other than games? I mean, shouldn't there be AI in other things? I know DARPA is one good example, but it would be nice to have AI for non-military purposes. I would find it quite an interesting undertaking to come up with an AI that could survive in normal conversation. Some group should set up a competition like DARPA for conversational AI, or start an opensource project for it.

    Hell, maybe someday AI will replace telemarketers. Then you won't feel quite so bad about playing jokes or hanging up on them (I know some of you don't feel bad about it already, but you have to understand that some of the people are just desperate for money and that's the only job they have).

    1. Re:Just for games? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      (I know some of you don't feel bad about it already, but you have to understand that some of the people are just desperate for money and that's the only job they have).
      I find your post ironic because using AI telemarketers would effectively eliminate these poor, desperate telemarketers' only source of income, rather than merely screwing with them like the cold cruel people you talk about.

      Won't someone please think of the telemarketers?
    2. Re:Just for games? by Sigma+7 · · Score: 1
      I know this is a bit offtopic, but why is there not as much focus on making a decent AI for things other than games?
      The main reasons is because regular AI programming has higher standards - and generally requires a Masters to even consider doing anything serious. Placing a focus on a more advanced AI system world therefore need more Masters, which in turn requires a focus placed on education.

      Game AI programming is much easier, since you just have to write an AI that always makes the best actions (e.g. drone toward player, shoot with perfect accuracy, etc.) and cripple it from there. This applies for almost any game, although exceptions do exist.

      Basically, game AI programming involves not having AI players do ultimatly stupid moves or actions (e.g.g throw away a pawn for no good reason.)
  68. AI by cpangelich · · Score: 1

    General Dynamics hired my uncle to make tanks that can operate on autopilot in the battlefield. I was having some success at AI but stopped working on it when I realized what it would be used for.

    --
    Charles Angelich
    1. Re:AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Parent wrote:
      General Dynamics hired my uncle to make tanks that can operate on autopilot in the battlefield. I was having some success at AI but stopped working on it when I realized what it would be used for.

      You mean fighting other remotely piloted tanks? Yeah, thats the sux0rz, dude. It's a shame your AI wouldn't have a chance to kill people.

      On a more serious note: First of all, the AI you write for a game isn't likely to ever be used by the military. Second, why deny the world something just because someone might try to use it for evil purposes? That's like cutting all our noses off to spite your face. What if I told you that the US military was planning to use Linux once it has better realtime support? Would you stop using linux? I didn't think so. Now get back to making your AI. :)

      keyword: debunk

      It's been 10 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment... *yawn*

    2. Re:AI by cpangelich · · Score: 1
      On a more serious note: First of all, the AI you write for a game isn't likely to ever be used by the military.

      The military already uses video gaming to train soldiers for combat and flight simulators to train pilots for aerial combat.

      Second, why deny the world something just because someone might try to use it for evil purposes?

      I think people should consider the long term effects of what they create or do not create.

      --
      Charles Angelich
  69. Re:Pong AI by Infinityis · · Score: 1

    And of course, my AI for winning at Slashdot:

    while (1)
        switch ( int(random()%5) )
        {
            case 0:
                printf("First Post!");
                break;
            case 1:
                printf("Micro$oft is the 5uX0rs");
                break;
            case 2:
                printf("Yes, but does it run Linux?");
                break;
            case 3:
                printf("DUPE!");
                break;
            case 4:
                printf("I know I'll get modded down for this, but " + char(random()));
                break;
            }

  70. Natural machines: better because they are simpler by master_p · · Score: 1

    The problem with AI as it has been developed the last 50 years is that it is based on totally wrong principles. We can't build machines that think the way nature's machines do, because of the technological limits, but most importantly, because we have 'solved' the problem of AI in the wrong way.

    There are currently two approaches for AI, both wrong.

    The first approach is to program the rules of the problem in a hierrarchical manner, through a series of 'if this then do that'. Of course that does not work, because not all the possible cases are handled (and the possible cases are trillions in most computer games).

    The second approach is to make a neural net with weighted 'neurons' that get updated according to the happennings around the world. Again this is wrong.

    The reason that both approaches fail is that there is no 'goal' for the AI algorithms, whereas in nature every move of the brain is performed in order to fulfill the needs of the host entity.

    The primary goal of a being is to 'survive'. That is the only goal hardwired into a being. The mechanism used for achieving this goal is actually very very simple. Here is a description of it with simple steps:

    1) the input is being patterned matched against the stored experiences

    2) the most similar experience is recalled

    3) if the recalled experience is good, the action that corresponds to the experience is taken; otherwise, the opposite action is taken

    4) the whole input/pattern matching/action selection is stored in the brain as an experience.

    That's all there is for intelligence. Every human action is, deep down, an attempt to survive. From love to war to hate to writing poems, to playing computer games etc, all of human actions have one common underlying trait: it's all there so as that emotions are felt, and for the proper substances to be released, so as that the entity survives.

    As humans grow up, their experiences get more and more complex, involving speech etc, and then conciousness emerges as the result of 'storing' the various experiences throughout life. There is no hardwired conciousness...the ability of the brain to reflect about itself, to model the world, and 'talk' about it comes as a natural result of the pattern matching mechanism.

    Since AI systems lack any goals, they do not evolve. A true AI for a computer game would have no specific rules inside it, but a way to store experiences, do pattern matching and take appropriate action according the input.

  71. Re:Pong AI by Violet+Null · · Score: 1

    If you're using signed ints for booleans, true isn't -1 because of where the significant bit is; true is -1 because that's the two's complement of 0. So -1 is 1111 in binary, and !-1 is 0000, or 0, or false. If true was 1, which is 0001, then !true would be 1110, or -2.
     
    It's easy to shoot yourself in these languages, since you can have things like:
     
     
    int x = 4;
    if (x && !x) {
          printf("This code will get executed.");
    }

  72. current AI by Danzigism · · Score: 0
    IF

    THEN

    --
    *plays the Apogee theme song music*
  73. AI a hot topic? by corngrower · · Score: 1

    Well, I haven't hear too many people talking about Artificial Insemenation lately. It seems to be pretty mundane these days. I suppose the cattle breeders and the hog breeders talk about it occasionally.

  74. AI wont be understood... by blahplusplus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... until they realize biological intelligence is the place where AI really needs to start. It seems pretty ass backward to model biological behaviour on a machine when you don't understand the mechanics of Biological or human consciousness.

    My guesss is 'real' true AI, that see's the world like us and senses it like us wont be understood for a long time. Because lets face it, what AI really gives us is precise tools, to do all the jobs we cannot more precisely, but the fact is these greater functions were made by us, and are still reliant on our wetware brains for their superior formation and organization, and are only as good as we build them to be.

    AI is supposed to do more and be more then just an automaton running algorithms, what I mean is, it has to self-aware environment like we are, when we are very young when we are first born we run algorithms that build some the foundation of the mind, none of us remember learning to walk or our first words within our first year or two, our self-awareness, 'we' as we experience ourselves don't wake up until between 2 and 4 year of age, this can vary somewhat depending on how fast the brain develops but the biology does most of the 'plumbing work' for us to build a foundation / mature the brain structures, to the point where enabling self-awareness makes sense.

    Babies may seem alive and self-aware when they are very young but they are not, they do not experience the world at all like 6 year old, they are effectively asleep until the brain has matured to the point where self-awareness is achievable, we do not understand this process and until this is understood AI will be a wet dream if we truly want to create intelligences like human beings that are not merely machines not aware of their own existence responding in like a live human being in every respect, but not really alive. You can only really be said to be alive if you awake.

    People in their sleep speak and move and do all sorts of 'living' things but they are not aware that they are doing so, it's all automatic, this is basically what most if not all AI will be like until we understand the threshold of what causes human self-awareness.

    1. Re:AI wont be understood... by cybpunks3 · · Score: 1

      I think it's just a problem of parallelization.

      Computers are not parallel enough to be able to simulate the brain. They would take a lot longer to complete a full "thought" than an equivalent human. They are only good at solving static problems in a tight inner loop (think chess) rather than open-ended consciousness.

      However, I do think that the brain can ultimately be emulated just as any machine can.

  75. Re:Natural machines: better because they are simpl by cybpunks3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The thing is, unless you are talking about NPCs in an RPG, AI doesn't have to model all aspects of the human brain. It just has to model enough in order to act out the limited role that that character has to play in the specific game.

    For instance, in a racing game, the AI of the other drivers only should know how to drive the car. You don't need to give the driver a fullblown consciousness.

    So you have to scale your AI approach to the game.

  76. AI for nethack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'll be impressed when a computer can acend in nethack. You don't have to have human intelligence to do it. but you do have to plan ahead.

  77. Example of AI helping understanding by vikstar · · Score: 1

    AI _can_ help with data reduction, but not understanding.

    TD-gammon is a classic example of how AI has improved the understanding of a particular subject of study. Gerry Tesauro created an AI backgammon player that not only rivaled the best grandmasters of the time, but also allowed a new strategy of oppening play to surface as the dominant style.

    http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~sutton/book/11/node2.ht ml:TD-Gammon learned to play certain opening positions differently than was the convention among the best human players. Based on TD-Gammon's success and further analysis, the best human players now play these positions as TD-Gammon does

    --
    The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can swim.
  78. Rendering the environement for the AI? by renoX · · Score: 1

    If I understand the review, the idea is rendering the environement for the AI, the problem of course with this idea is that it can be very cpu consuming..
    Of course you don't have to do the full rendering, but for exemple light condition should have an impact on visibility so the rendering must be quite detailed..

  79. A little anodyne for defeatism... by Quadraginta · · Score: 1

    Oh let's think positive. Maybe one of the problems in AI is that the part of our thinking of which we're most aware -- the conscious, logical, linear, step-by-step part after which we model our computer programs -- is the part that does the least of our daily-life thinking. Maybe the bulk of our daily-life thinking is half-unconscious and massively parallel, to suit our hardware (10^12 neurons with a 1 kHz clock cycle).

    Indeed, I find it fairly plausible that the bulk of our normal "human" ability to usefully and sanely respond to each other might have less to do with peering many steps ahead down complex decision trees and more to do with being able to recognize a huge number of variations on certain basic patterns and situations, and doing so on the basis of incomplete and noisy data. In other words, what makes humans good at, well, being human is more like recognizing a familiar face among thousands you've never seen or solving Where's Waldo? puzzles than playing three-dimensional chess with the M-5.

    Alas, the bulk of the computing community has developed fairly little expertise in trying to imagine how to build, program and debug that kind of hardware/software combination.

    So maybe that's all the problem is. We might just need to get used to building 500 nm wide nano-CPUs running pico-kernels, and figure out how to wire up a few billion to accomplish pattern recognition tasks as fast as we do.

  80. Re:Pong AI by pfafrich · · Score: 1
    To prove once and for all that an artificial intelligence can emulate and even exceed the capabilities of human thought I have written an UNBEATABLE pong AI. paddle.Y = ball.Y;

    A nice example of one of the problems with AI you don't want to make it too good. You could say this is a god-like AI which is perfect. A harder task is to make non-godlike AI's: enemies which miss some of the time.

    --
    There are four sorts of people in the world: fools, lunatics, idiots and morons. - Umberto Eco, Foucaut's pendulum.
  81. Re:Pong AI by maxpublic · · Score: 1

    Then some whiners came along and said 'The AI is only beating me because it's cheating!'

    Only an idiot would play poker against someone who had a few extra decks stuffed up their sleeves. The challenge is meaningless when the opponent cheats.

    Max

    --
    My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
  82. Re:Pong AI by Stauf · · Score: 1

    Then some whiners came along and said 'The AI is only beating me because it's cheating!'

    Imagine an FPS. Imagine a map with a long open space - long enough so that an opponent at the other end of the space is one pixel, total, on the screen. Now realise that a computer would be able to hit that opponent in the head every time . That's not going to be much fun to play against, even though the machine isn't 'cheating' per se.

    Now, imagine an RTS game - a human player can only see a section of the map at one time. A human player has only his past experience to gauge troop movement speeds. A computer player could simply throw their troops at two different targets that are too far away for the player to watch both at once, the computer player could coordinate things so that the attacks happen at exactly the same time. This doesn't sound so bad, until you consider that the computer also knows exactly how many hit points of damage your troops have, how much damage its troops can inflict and can precisely gauge things so that the human player cannot win.

    Why would people play games like this? They wouldn't. Simplistic AI like the above doesn't make games, it just isn't entertaining. And that's the reason AI is a tough subject today. Not because of any 'whiners'.

  83. Two categories? by Tune · · Score: 1

    Many books have been dedicated to studying and expanding the field of AI, but generally fall into two categories: those that concentrate on AI as a research topic, and those that concentrate on AI in the field of game development.

    IMHO the traditional subdivision of AI is between expert systems and automated learning. Games, is a field of applications, as are language technology, machine vision and machine operation optimization, for example. Games are really just a fringe.

    The two categories categories proposed here are like saying: "there are 'basically' two categories for programming languages: LISP and non-functional languages." Here, 'basically' makes no sense outside the scope of LISP.

    For a more accepted categorization of AI, look here

    1. Re:Two categories? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or here, for an up-to-date view from a language processing perspective.

  84. Re:Pong AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    True is -1 because that's that one's complement of 0.

    In such languages the boolean AND is implemented with a bitwise operator (indeed, that's the whole point, for efficiency.) So in your example the printf would not be executed.

    A language that implemented a C-style "&&" but a bitwise "!" would be retarded.

  85. As a coder with AI background... by mcvos · · Score: 1

    My AI education overlapped enormously with CS. We got the same programming and SE courses that everybody else got. The main difference is that we got less hardware and OS stuff and a lot more logic. And ofcourse lots of AI techniques. Most CS students did learn a bit about search algorithms and expert systems, but not about neural networks, genetic programming and multi-agent systems.

    And in my opinion, it shows in the state of AI in most games. They do some decent searching where possible, but mostly have vague, unfounded heuristics that seem to work nicely at first, but crumble as soon as the gamers get hold of the game.

    But although most of my fellow students and AI are gaming adicts and would love to work in the gaming business, we've all ended up C and Java programmers for web applications. I'd love to have a job that involved a bit more AI, but those jobs just don't seem to exist. Not in my country, anyway.

    mcv.

    1. Re:As a coder with AI background... by vaporakula · · Score: 1

      Thats a big issue with working in the games industry - you have to be willing to up and move to where the jobs are. Not everyone is, for entirely understandable reasons...

    2. Re:As a coder with AI background... by mcvos · · Score: 1

      The problem is that moving to another country hoping to get a dream job there is a very risky step, while trying to find a job in a country where you don't live is pretty hard. Besides, I'm actually pretty happy with my current job. I guess I'll just have to write my computer games in my spare time. mcv.

  86. to nitpick even MORE... by kahei · · Score: 1

    ...there were some exceptions to the above rule: all monsters armed with guns could hurt anything, including each other. Thus sergeants, soldiers, chain gunners and spider demons could all fight their own kind, although because bullets travelled infinitely fast it was difficult to induce them to hit each other in the first place.

    --
    Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
    1. Re:to nitpick even MORE... by bmorton · · Score: 1

      Touche! ha ha. I should've specified that "like fire" referred to projectiles with their own sprites.

      There were actually several instances in doom2 where the easiest way to clear those things was to run circles around them causing them to get into a fire fight.

      Ahh. Who needs sophisticated AI when you have such genius level design? (Felt I had to make it at least marginally on-topic ;)

      -B

    2. Re:to nitpick even MORE... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There were actually several instances in doom2 where the easiest way to clear those things was to run circles around them causing them to get into a fire fight.

      Well, if you tried to pass each level on ultra violence without saving and starting only with the pistol that kind of behaviour would quite fast become your second nature because of the tremendous ammo scarcity. Managed to get to the Living End...

  87. I AM A PROFESSIONAL AI PROGRAMMER by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    By far, the BEST book on this subject, is

    "Programming Game AI by Example", Mat Buckland

    When I got this one, I threw out all my other books on the subject (well, I kept all books of Knuth, Dijkstra and Cormen, but they more on algorithms than AI)

    he also has a book on neural networks and genetic algorithms that is great: "AI Techniques for Game Programming"

    -KA

  88. RPG by ichigo+2.0 · · Score: 1

    It doesn't help in CRPG's (real CRPG's, not MMO games) though, I just can't imagine anyone wanting to be a peasant or kobold or some other random NPC.

  89. AI doesn't have to be realistic to be good by Dr.+Manhattan · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I was skimming a book on AI and games (maybe even this one) and they pointed out some neat tricks that aren't 'realistic' but which result in useful behavior. In "No One Lives Forever", the enemies would plot a path to you, trying to find the least "costly", generally the shortest.

    But when the first one found a path to you, they would mark the grid point just before you with a high (but not infinite) 'cost'. Then the next enemy to plot a path to you would naturally try to avoid that spot, but would use it if there were no other choice.

    Presto, enemies naturally try to come at you from multiple directions, without having to spend a lot of expensive cycles on modelling 'intelligent' coordination and strategy.

    --
    PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
  90. Re:Pong AI by bcmm · · Score: 1

    That's why good FPSs simulate bullet spread, i.e. the bullets randomly fall slightly off from where they're aimed at. That way the "AI" doesn't have to be programmed to aim badly, which is also boring. The same limits can be imposed on humans and AI. This is done by degrees of the angle, not total distance, so I suppose you still need to stop them behaving like an aimbot at close range.
    Maybe it's better to limit the reaction time somehow? Maybe a limit on the speed they can rotate their point of view would be good. After all, a major issue for human player is how fast they can turn the mouse.

    --
    # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i llama
    Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
  91. Re: Spore (corrected links) by kisrael · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It can be argued that once we know something can be programmed we stop thinking of it AI. A few years ago many would have claimed that a computer really should have achieved something intelligent when it beats a grandmaster at chess. Now, after the fact, we only think of it as a clever search routine.

    There's some truth to that, but I think people want AI to be done the "right" way, like a chess program that was an outgrowth of a general purpose intelligence rather than a specialized one-trick-wonder.

    If Deep Blue (or whatever the latest champion is) could also pick out a face in a variety of lighting conditions, have a half-acceptable conversation, or even learn to play a decent game of Checkers or Stratego (all using the same basic ideas that let it play chess so well not just bolt-on independent programs), then we'd have Artificial Intelligence, not just Artificial Idiot Savants.

    Or if something like Cyc could LEARN to play a decent game of chess after being told the rules. (Heh...actually in some ways Atari 2600 Chess with its habit of rearranging the board (during the screenblanking "thinking" period) when under "stressful" situations almost seems more human than something like Deep Blue.)

    What's also interesting is reading about how the human grandmasters deal with high end programs. Humans play chess by "chunking" the pieces on the board and applying pattern recognition. Similarly, humans can kind of "chunk" the strategies that specific AIs fall into, and try to counter them, even though it's still damned hard to do so. Conversely, I'm not sure if we have a serious AI that could even take things to the metalevel like that.

    --
    SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
  92. Re:Pong AI by swilde23 · · Score: 1

    I think it's been mentioned in this topic already, but AI isn't necessarily making it so that the computer can beat you everytime (or at least so it can't lose), AI is taking away that advantage. In a way, adding intelligence involves dumbing down the computer.
    Plus, when you play pong it isn't always your objective to hit the ball. Usually you want to try and get it with the side of your paddle to get it moving real fast. :)

    --
    There are 10 types of people in the world. Those that understand this sig, and those that beat up people who do.
  93. Turing Test by Brass+Cannon · · Score: 1

    Good point.

    I wonder if this might be a standard of the Turing test. From what I know of the test, a computer has passed when it can communicate with a person and the person cannot identify it as a computer.

    When I play a FPS against a computer, I know it. So do you by the point you make. When a computer can strategize in such a way that I cannot tell it is a computer, that will be a successful Turing test, IMHO.

  94. Re:Pong AI by Surt · · Score: 1

    Ok, clearly the ;-) at the end of my post was too hard to spot. I'm arguing the very point you are: that AI is very difficult to write because people want it to play blind and with power equity (without precise knowledge of the state of the game, or manipulating the state of the game in a way unavailable to the player) as if it were a human being. The given pong AI is invincible precisely because it manipulates the game in a way unavailable to the player (moves the paddle to precisely the ball's position, even if the paddle can't be moved that fast by the human player).

    The problem is, that with no cheats whatsoever available to the computer, it has to act nearly as smart as a human in order to be competitive. AI techniques are no where near human intelligence right now, and won't be for at least 40 years, barring some surprising advance.

    --
    "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
  95. Re:Natural machines: better because they are simpl by stonecypher · · Score: 1

    This distinction is one of several reasons it's so frustrating that people refuse to differentiate between AI and simulated agent behavior. There isn't any AI on Earth anywhere (except in deep dark government lockdown vaults maybe.) What drives your video game is called a simulated agent.

    --
    StoneCypher is Full of BS
  96. Re:I just don't understand. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think you are assuming that everyone reads all of the articles like you do. They don't. So the mods don't get your joke.

  97. AI for Games? Games for AI!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Puzzles, Dominoes, 4 in 4, 3 in 3, Rubik's cube, Queens, Kasparov vs Karpov, backgammon, ... are really the games for AI.

    Their techniques are alpha-beta cuts and many specific heuristics.