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Titan Occupies A Solar System Sweet Spot
SocietyoftheFist writes "From an article on the BBC website, scientists have determined that Titan occupies a 'sweet spot' much like Earth. Venus is the same size as Earth but too hot so water boiled off long ago ending most geologic processes. Mars is too small to generate enough heat to keep water from freezing so it too slowed down geologically. Titan is much like the Earth with winds, rains and tectonic forces but instead of water it has an abundance of methane. Methane is liquid at the temperatures found in Titan's atmosphere and replaces water in the equation."
Methane hey. that could be spelled "oil"
I say we go get rid of the terrorist on Titan.
omg it's the fart planet!
The 14 year old cherry-bomb-in-mailbox type of rascal in me demands that we light a match and drop it on Titan. BOOM. That would be neat.
Makes me want to eat a cuuried egg, as we speak...
"Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
Methane? Ah ha, I've got it!
Cows are really aliens from Titan sent to observe us. The methane they, uh, "give off" is just a little air leak in their otherwise-perfect disguises.
Cow mutilations are obviously the result of partying Titans down here huffing cows. Their parents probably don't have a clue what their up to.
"Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
Cohen
Cue bad jokes now... ;-)
In both of their "sweet spot" scenarios, they attribute boiling water to solar proximity, but then frozen water to planetary mass. In both cases, the whole thing can be explained just with solar proximity, as it usually has been. Planets farther away have colder temperatures. Yes, its true that a smaller planet will retain less heat, but the primary factor here is still solar proximity.
"Titan is perhaps the most Earth-like place in the Solar System other than Earth,"
good thing he's a scientist
A fundamental issue, as I understamd it, is the speed of chemical reactions. Roughly speaking, chemical process speeds are related exponentially to temperature. Generally speaking, the temperatures on Titan are far to low to permit life processes anything like the sort we see on Earth. That isn't a definite "no", but any life forms would have to be radically different from anything on Earth.
Well, you have noticed the similarity between the "Men in Black" and restaurant waiters, haven't you? And you've noticed they delight in serving steaks? Well, that's what happens when the Titan aliens they've interrogated in Area 51 are finished with.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
"Titan is perhaps the most Earth-like place in the Solar System other than Earth", Jonathan Lunine, University of Arizona phew ! Thank god Earth is Earth-like! For a moment there I thought we were more like ...Pluto!!
While the methane jokes are just HI-larious, on a more serious/sci-nerd note:
Methane is a lot less likely to be the "solvent" for life as water is. Water has a lot of very unusual properties which are important factors in the biochemical reactions of life; the most important of these is its strong polar nature. The polarity of water is a, if not the (biochemists feel free to correct me, i'm synthetic org.), major factor in protein folding; the ability of water to dissolve ionic compounds is also vitally important, e.g. nerve function. Bottom line, a nonpolar organic solvent is a *lot* less likely, if not impossible, to support life.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
Now we have a lifeless planet full of transit bus fuel. Just have to get it here...
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Esso, we have a problem..
If there are two planets capable for sustaining life (well, one is. I don't know about Earth), how many are there in the entire universe?
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I just don't understand where scientists think that it would be possible to live on one of these moons. From the article,
"But David Grinspoon of the Southwest Research Institute says organisms could occupy specific niches, such as hot springs. They could use acetylene, in reaction with hydrogen gas, to release enough energy to power metabolism, and possibly to heat their environments. "
I just don't see this happening. The reason that earth can be heated is because of the sun. When you stand outside you can feel the heat that is generated from the sun. The earth also had a hot core but that isn't near enough to keep it heated. Plus the fact that the hot spots on Titan that are generated by its own core, are going to be tiny. You are not going to be able to eat or drink as there is no resource for food. These scientists really have big dreams. They make this stuff out to be like a real fairy tale... Its nice to know some things about the planet but when they try to convince themselves that it is habitable then it just gets a little silly.
Image here.
Text:
Methane clathrate deposits in the ocean floor have been found to be inhabited by polychaete worms of the species Hesiocaeca methanicola. The worms colonize the ice-methane solid and appear to survive by gleaning bacteria that in turn metabolize the clathrate. In 1997, Charles Fisher, professor of biology at Penn State, discovered this remarkable creature living on mounds of methane ice under half a mile of ocean on the floor of the Gulf of Mexico.
Titan moon occupies 'sweet spot'
By Paul Rincon
BBC News science reporter, in Cambridge
Wind, rain and volcanism play a big role on Titan
Earth and Saturn's moon Titan show striking similarities because both occupy "sweet spots" in our Solar System, researchers have said.
Many processes that occur on Earth also take place on this moon, say scientists participating in the US-European Cassini-Huygens mission.
Wind, rain and volcanism and tectonic activity all seem to play a role in shaping Titan's surface.
One scientist even sees a way that life could survive on the freezing world.
"Titan is perhaps the most Earth-like place in the Solar System other than Earth, in terms of the balance of processes," says Jonathan Lunine, of the University of Arizona, who is an interdisciplinary scientist for Cassini-Huygens.
Titan is perhaps the most Earth-like place in the Solar System other than Earth
Jonathan Lunine, University of Arizona
"Wind-driven processes, river channels, evidence of rain, possible lakes and geological features that may have to do with volcanism and tectonism."
Different chemistry
But the chemistry that drives these processes is radically different between the two worlds. For example, methane seems to perform many of the same roles on Titan that water plays on Earth.
Dr Lunine believes that Earth and Titan both have similar processes occurring because they occupy "sweet spots" in the Solar System. Being in one these spots requires striking a balance between size, or mass, and distance from the Sun.
To demonstrate the idea, Dr Lunine considered three planets in the inner Solar System: Venus, Earth and Mars.
The mass of a body corresponds to an ability to sustain heat flow from its interior, while distance from the Sun is correlated with the ability to retain liquid water, a driver of geological activity on Earth.
Venus is about the same size as Earth. But it is so close to the Sun that any water it had must have boiled off. As such, there is no hydrological cycle and no tectonic activity, says Lunine.
Mars is distant enough from the Sun to retain water. But its small size caused it to cool quickly, turning water to ice and ending large-scale geological activity. Earth occupies an intermediate position - the "sweet spot".
The researcher then turned to three bodies in the outer Solar System: Ganymede, Titan and Triton. The chemistry is different, but similar principles apply.
Jupiter's moon Ganymede, the closest of the three to the Sun, is similar in size to Titan, but lacks the methane and nitrogen that drive liquid processes on the saturnian moon: "It's a kind of baked out version of Titan," said Lunine.
Neptune's moon Triton, much further from the Sun than both Ganymede and Titan, possesses methane and nitrogen. But its small size caused them to freeze, ending any prospect of geological activity.
Scientists have been revealing new details about Titan at the meeting in Cambridge. Ralph Lorenz of the University of Arizona, said that the river channels and flows on Titan are fashioned by "monsoon" events.
'Catastrophic rains'
It takes a relatively long time for methane to build up to a point where it can rain down on Titan's surface. Scientists, therefore, think rains are only occasional, but catastrophic, when they occur.
Evidence also suggests Titan is constantly being resurfaced by a fluid mixture of water and ammonia spewed out by volcanoes and hot springs, explaining why Titan is not littered with impact craters like its neighbours
Many processes that occur on Earth also take place on Titan
A surface feature called Ganesa Macula may show just such a flow emanating from a volcanic crater.
The moon's icy surface is also covered with a film, or patina, of organic compounds, Cassini-Huygens data show.
One researcher has even proposed a way for life to survive on the giant Saturnian satellite. It is too cold for organisms to survive
the probe brought back. There are water ice pebbles everywhere.
You could extract the oxygen and hydrogen from the water ice pebbles or merely use it for drinking water or growing plants.
Electricity and heating would be supplied by the frozen natural gas present EVERYWHERE.
You just get the fire started and use material for insulation and you could live there and grow vegetables under metal halide lighting from the generators burning natural gas.
Of course you could do all this but it wouldnt be very interesting. Titan is almost pitch black to the human eye. You'd have to bring a flashlight everywhere making things really creepy. There would be very little to explore, it would be about as interesting as exploring ice caves in antarctica. It would be interesting to see if you could sail on the hydrocarbon lakes though but try sailing with a flashlight.
What benefit would living on titan be other than to say we did it?
The only benefit i can see to this is to mine the moon via a assembly line of robots picking up and dropping off shipments of hydrocarbons to earth. But we would be changing earth's atmosphere with unpredictable results as we'd be adding even more greenhouse gases and carbon to it.
The only use i could see to living on titan would be as a hydrocarbon miner. Theres really no other reason of interest to be there.
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One of my favourite movie quotes:
"There are 400 billion stars out there, just in our galaxy alone. If just one out of a million of those had planets, and just one in a million of those had life, and just one out of a million of those had intelligent life, there would be literally millions of civilizations out there." - Contact
I'm a dreamer, the world is my playpen. But hey, I'm a serious person, I can't dream all the time.
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http://images.google.com/images?q=methane%20worms
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it being a more general geologic attribute of matter.
Take a look at calcium for example. Have you ever noticed how coral skeletons share ALOT in common with limestone formations in a cave? It's just the structure calcium follows, perhaps the corals just take advantage of this fact and nurture it's natural crystalline form to create their skeletons. Some formations in caves are so spot on that they refer to the formation as 'cave coral'.
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can extract it from the water ice. all you need is a small amount in the beginning to start the fire.
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A bit clumsy, but classic troll style.
Sure... sounds great.. but as far as I know... methane boils at -161.45 C (111.55 K). That's not a very sweet spot for most biological systems I can think of.
400e9 / 1e6 = 400e3 stars with planets;
400e3 / 1e6 = 0.4 planets with life;
0.4 / 1e6 = 0.0000004 planets with civilization(s).
So it's 0.00004% of one civilization, and not "millions" as you cite. You need to gather 2,500,000 of "our galaxies" to get to one civilization, and you already have one, so go and get another 2.5 million of galaxies if you need aliens.
Or...
Should the lowly methane-life organisms welcome us, their Oxygen-breathing overlords?
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
Right, that was supposed to read "two planets in the same solar system".
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No smoking allowed on Titan then? Or is there no oxygen anyway?
jouwnieuws!
My old roommate was must have been from Titan.
If you fart in a methane atmosphere, does it smell?
Sometimes I've wondered what would happen if we could (magically) replace our moon with Titan. It's larger than the moon so tidal effects and animal life here on earth will be affected of course, but what would happen to Titan's atmosphere? Huge greenhouse effect?
Europa would be an interesting candidate too... but maybe this sort of speculation belongs in the 'Who would win: Skeletor vs Dr.Doom' category.
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How is this meant with the boiled water? That it boiled because of the greenhouse effect? I read several times that Venus would be habitable (although surely not very pleasant, and mostly a desert world) if the greenhouse gases weren't there, and a earth-like atmosphere would be in their place.
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Im not sure the quote implied that there should be millions of civilazations solely in our galaxy. So if we asume the estimated number of 125 billion galaxies is somewhat correct, we are not that far off from millions of civilaztions using these calculations.
That would be "they're' as in "they are." Not "their", the possessive, as in "their parents."
Anybody who can compile an OSS kernel can learn this. Geez...
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That is an invalid comparison; the observation was not a statement of inference, but a recognition of similarities. Unless you use two different techniques of judging similarities based on the subject, any sane judgement of similarity will have the commutative property.
Saying that Titan is like Earth but Earth is not like Titan in some particular fashion is like saying that Baltimore is close to DC, but DC is not close to Baltimore.
Wasn't this a theme in one of the 2001+ A Space Odyssey books?
I believe that complexity will tend to increase in an evolving system.
As long as everyone's asexual and existing on sunlight, it's all good, but the moment you get a predator/prey split, you have an arms race.
Ooh baby! Boy howdy. I hope that Triton occupies a Solar System sweetspot around Uranus. I think we should rename all it's moons Dingleberry. "Look there's a Dingleberry around Uranus. Ooh and it's a big one."
The top of the hill is close to the bottom, but the bottom is not close to the top. That may be true if you consider the effort to climb the hill.
Consider:
Box A is the most Box C like, but box C is not the most box A like (box B is more similar to box A).
Surface life may well prove to the the rarity.
Somewhere like Ganymede, or Europa, has a far greater habitability beneath the surface.
Sub-surface regions seems generally more likely to allow life to get started than surfaces. A bit of activity there is good, as life thrives in changing rather than fixed environments (as far as we know).
Even life on earth began below the surface, in the oceans.
Sub-surface is where we may find life on Mars, there's no question of life on the surface there.
While you do have a propensity towards green women, the smell captin...how do you get past the smell?
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
Venus is about the same size as Earth. But it is so close to the Sun that any water it had must have boiled off. As such, there is no hydrological cycle and no tectonic activity, says Lunine.
I'd really like to know what connection Lunine thinks there is between tectconic activity isn't related to water in any way. Living as I do in Los Angeles, I'm rather familiar with it.
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So... our early Titan colonies will be plastered with "ABSOLUTELY No Smoking" signs.
You can run but you can't hide, except, apparently, along the Afghan-Pakistani border.
But in the interest of scientific correctness...
I don't think it should be called sweet spot.
It's wet spot.
So should I be expecting breakthroughs on "Ice Nine"-like substances soon?
So to get life you need 4 elements?
Wind = Air;
Tectonic Forces = Earth;
Liquid Methane = Water;
And Fire would be... Required temperature or lightning?
Storm. In an ocean or just on a coast lightning striking something? Perhaps that's how life is born?
Not that I have any idea what I'm talking about... :)
With all the extra solar planets being discovered it seems that planets are a normal byproduct of star creation. So maybe 1/10 suns has planet maybe its even 1 in 2. It surly isnt 1/1e6 for that we have found to many planets all ready.
So if the 1/1e6 isnt correct for planets than what about the 1/1e6 for life. Well frankly we dont even know if their is other life in this solar system. If we ever find extraterrestrial life in our solar system than we have to assume that life is pretty common in our galaxa.
Hmmm... You'd think that after 65 bazillion years, a lifeform would have evolved that uses methane instead of water. Ah well...
From the article:
"From an article on the BBC website, scientists have determined that...
Scientific work keeps getting easier and easier.
Titan has highly evolved indigenous life, but they don't want us to know they're there in case we stink up the place with all our oxygen...
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