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China's Second Manned Space Flight
desert island writes "As if to coincide with Russia's space tourist, Beijing News speculated that China's second manned space launch will occur after the October 1-7 holiday. The spacecraft Shenzhou VI, with two astronauts, will be launched from the Jiuquan Space Launch Center in northwest China's Gansu province and will last 119 hours." From the article: "The mission will differ markedly from China's first manned space voyage, the Shenzhou V, which was a solo flight that lasted 21 hours in October 2003. China's space program is still shrouded in secrecy with little known about events until several days before they happen. However since the success of the first manned flight, authorities have shown a little more transparency."
Of course we also remember that the first asian astronaut flew in space over 25 years ago. ( July 23, 1980 Pham Tuan)
The article is about twice the length of the writeup, with most of the content simply cut and pasted into the writeup.
It would be nice to have more information about this. I wonder what China's plans are as to space, and whether their centralized government will be able to make better progress than the American system. Then again, beauracracy is beauracracy, so I don't have high hopes on China getting much further than developing extra-long range rockets.
Jesus saved me from my past. He can save you as well.
John Titor predicted this.
I wanna know what the two'll be eating during their mission. Do you think spin-off technology would bring us instant-dehydrated-dimsum, maybe? or perhaps space-roast... *duck*
Stay sentient. Don't drink bad milk.
So China will eventually put the first man to the moon?
I think we can keep recursing like this until someone returns 1
It staggers my mind to watch the Chinese enter (however belately) into the space race with such obsolete equipments.
India had ambition but had to scale it back due to pragmatism (and a wise move at this).
Chinese however is surely to make this long moon-shot works because its such a draconian government mandate at the back of its ten millions of poor destitute citizenry (at least 40% at last count). Why does this remind me of U.S.S.R. back in the 80s? USA merely (oops, nearly) drove them broke with Reagan at the helm touting his Star Wars pitch.
As for Red China, such lofty goals by its forward/backward parity of a Taoist (no, make that Maoist) society. At least, NASA has pragmatic mechanism built-in (via congressional funding) whose vote is carried by its middle-class!
Just break the Chinese camel's back with a Mars shot and be done with.
Her first mission was 1985, she joined NASA in 1978. She was also the Capcom for the most recent mission. See: Shannon Lucid.
This is probably just my paranoia talking, but the little tinfoil hat guy on my shoulder is wondering: is one of their objectives on the moon to look around and say "Hey! Where are the Apollo modules? The Americans didn't make it to the moon, after all!"
I wonder if they might even go so far as to destroy any evidence they do find.
Sit, Ubuntu, sit. Good dog.
Good work china. Despite everyone's criticisms, it's still no easy task to get ppl into space. So here's my congratulations in advance, and good luck.
The Soviet Union could build nukes but it could not build refrigerated trucks so most of its vegetables never made it to market. Centralized systems frequently fail to do important things, or put vast effort into spectacularly stupid things because there is no system of checks and balances. If China deflects its modernisation plans into space exploration, it may just run out of resource and collapse like the Soviet Union did. The Cultural Revolution hardly bodes well as an example of Chinese centralized planning!
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
Chinese (astronauts) are called taikonauts, just as the Russians should be called cosmonauts... I know nobody cares...
... i dunno if you noticed this or not, but the Cultural Revolution is long since over, and China has moved on.
.. China is awake. China is un-stoppable.
If you can't see examples of how Chinese centralized planning is affecting modern China, you haven't been there. Until you've been there, you won't really get it
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
I hope their technology has evolved since their first attempt.
Oh~ It is no news. The media in Hong Kong and China reports the launch of Shenzhou VI few months ago, which says:
- The spaceship will launch in the coming October
- 2 astronauts will be onboard
- 3 pairs of astronauts will be chosen for final stage training, and the authority will pick 1 pair before launch to carry our the mission
- Team work ability is an important criteria during the astronauts selection process
- The ship will fly for 5 days, five times more than Shenzhou V, and the authority claims that the stability and reliability of the ship has been improved.
- The carrying rocket is CZ-2F (Long March 2F), same as the one for Shenzhou V
- No spacewalk (will do it during the 3rd manned spaceflight, which is scheduled for 2007)
- The astronauts are allowed to take off their spacesuits when the ship is in orbit, which is different from the arrangement for Shenzhou V's astronaut.
- The astronauts will enter the "Orbit Module" and carry out experiments during the journey
- One of the experiments is to test the response of pig's sperms under space radiation
- Many delicious Chinese traditional food will be packed as space food for the astronauts, which will include spicy chicken, preserved vegetables, and assorted beans and rice
Source:
hk.news.yahoo.com
military.china.com
www.people.com.cn
My humanistic side OTOH keeps wondering why the Chinese people allow their dictatorial state machinery to continue the decades-long genocidal occupation of their peaceful Tibetan neighbors. If the brutal war-time occupation of parts of China by Japan's imperial army two generations ago is still a cause of pure hatred for the Chinese, can't they see that they themselves are continuing to totally extinguish the Tibetan nation, its language, its culture... stealing their natural resources (minerals and forests) while dumping China's nuclear and other waste on their ecologically delicate lands... causing the deaths of over a million Tibetans... mass-migrating millions upon millions of Chinese into Tibet, leaving Tibetans as impoverished minority in their own country...
People in the free world who have any respect for humanity should of course continue working towards ending this travesty of international justice but it is ultimately up to the Chinese people themselves to stop the crimes that are being committed in their name.
So while the ruling Party of China keeps on refining their rockets, the rest of us might as well put some effort on helping the Chinese people and their oppressed neighbors get better access to media and communications tools outside the state propaganda and censorship machine. The way MSN (MicroSoft Network) and Yahoo supports that oppressive machinery through their collaboration is nothing short of shameful.
Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?
They're lucky if they hit their target area within a few dozen miles; they are not going to be able to take down a shuttlecraft to the exact coordinates. Maybe in the 22nd century.
I know you're trolling but there are people with your mentality. I know people who went down there with "aid and rescue" and were shot at thus the reason the "army and weapons" had to come in which was actually the National Guard. Disaster recovery is one of the jobs of the National Guard.
It was disorganized, it wasn't perfect, but quite frankly I wasn't looking at skin color when I was donating my hard earned money and putting my house available for a few people to use while they get back on their feet. Here I am jobless and barely paying the bills as it is.
So crawl back into your ignorant racist Kanye West/Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton hell hole and don't come back out.
Would there be any thoughts towards NASA asking China to help out with Hubble? The chinese seem to want to spend money going out into space. Might be worth NASA sharing/selling knowledge. If the main point in the mission is making the citizens feel more nationalistic they may not care to enter any partnerships with other countries though.
Karma whoring with a joke is a waste of time , funny does not give you karma (though there should be a witty moderation choice for that reason , well not that joke from the GP).
.. such as the advancement of tech (which probably advanced quicker if they had worked together but never-mind). .. then we can get some real progress .
CAPCOM to most people around here does say "the guys who made Street fighter" so it is rather understandable that someone was going to make that joke.
Thanks for the link . I had thought it stood for Capsule commander actually .
The competition in this sector is very important , A number of negative aspects did arise from the USSR vs. USA race of last century (such as the inordinate funds that were spent ) but a number of positive aspects arise
China entering the sector in a more serious way will certainly help (even if they are not up to speed technologically yet).. now if we can just get the ESA , NASA and Chinese agency to work together
The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
there are two facts you may miss: China has been existing as a unified country since when Qin the first Emperor setup the Qin Dynasty. Ever since China has adopted a centralized political system, and has taken a world-leading role interms of cultrue and economy in most of the human history, only stepped down about 200 years ago when they refused to adopted the capitalist economy. Today's govenment is a also centralized. That's not wrong. It's not a perfect system, but it helped China survive thousands of years, more that any other country in the world. Tibet has been part of China more than at least 300 years ago in Qing Dynasty. Today's tibet are not oppressed by any one, but are threatened by swamps of tourists all over the world. In fact Tibet is one among over 30 provinces that accepts most fund from the central government. China in its long history proved to be a peaceful country. Almost never invaded any neighbours, instead, attracts its neighbors with more advance culture and economy.
Well, everyone knows the answer to that one. Think of it as parallel to American occupation of . . . . America. I'm sure the Tibetans will all be put on little reservations and allowed to monopolize gambling in exchange for their cooperation. Governments are trustworthy like that. We should support the free flow of information through all countries, in my opinion, regardless of corporate/national attempts to prevent it.
Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.
The point is that for a DEVELOPED country, there is a horrendous level of poverty in the US. And the government seems unwilling to help much.
Me (Blog)
Maybe this attitude of "I need help" is part of the reason why so many people do?
Tack the word "About" onto the front of your sentence, and I agree with you.
One counter-exampile is their contribution to defeating the Nazis in WWII.
If you're making a politically correct reference, at least make sure that it's actually referring to the relevant nationality...
Well, everyone knows the answer to that one. Think of it as parallel to American occupation of . . . . America.
Shouldn't that be called Europe's occupation of America?
European occupied?
;)
No.
Not since 1776 (or not since 1784, depending on what you're counting from)
I wonder how much control the Taikonauts have over their capsual? Are they like Russian comonauts - mere passengers under control from the ground or could they decided to land in the good ol' USA if they chose. That would be cool - Levi's Jeans, Nike Trainers and Coke here we come.
>Almost never invaded any neighbours, instead, attracts its neighbors with more advance culture and economy. Thats debatable, given the fact that China is flexing its muscles against Taiwan, fought numerous wars with Vietnam with an aim to overtake it, invaded Mongolia innumerable times, also Thailand, invaded India and still holds on to Indian territory in Aksai Chin.. the list goes on.. Actually, there isn't a single Asian neighbour China hasn't gone to war with. It has always been a big bully in the region and will remain as such. >Tibet has been part of China more than at least 300 years ago in Qing Dynasty What kind of logic is that? The British held India for more than 100 years.. does that give Britian a right to invade India and take possession of it again?? >In fact Tibet is one among over 30 provinces that accepts most fund from the central government Funds for exactly what? Funds for Han Chinese to build factories and cities on Tibetian lands and colonise them? Can't exactly see Tibetians benefiting from all those funds you advertise!!
In the 20s and the 30s useful idiots told everybody how the Soviet Union was unstoppable and unbeatable, and how its tremendous resources and central planning would enable it to overtake the rest of the world. As Krushchev told the US, we will attend your funeral...almost correct, just the wrong way round.
Chinese success stories? Taiwan - er, covertly US supported, not part of Chinese empire yet. Hong Kong - er, UK administered free market until very recently. Shanghai - interesting history, not really part of mainland Chinese economy. Beijing - well, I'd better not give identifiable information about contacts there, but don't try running a business without regular "donations" to the local party official.
The giant Chinese economy? The one that's being funded by US indebtedness. The Chinese economic boom is already starting to strangle itself because they are not producing the necessary materials and resources themselves, so the price of oil, steel, copper and concrete has been rising rapidly. Unlike the former Soviet Union, which actually produced huge excesses of raw materials, the Chinese boom is credit and resource constrained. And all the investors are afraid to say so for fear of a lack of business confidence (i.e. exposure to reality.)
I'm probably wrong, as about a lot of things, but to my mind the axis to watch is Russia/India. Russia has the resources. India has the people and the education. India also has a huge business presence in England which gives them access to the EU. Russia and India go back a long way together (the only successful communist governments in the world were in India.) Unless the US deliberately moves its economic and military power to support China, in an effort to stave off economic collapse, I know where I'd invest.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
How many countries would just rebuild a destroyed city? Or for that matter, rebuild destroyed nations like Afghanistan, Iraq, or Japan and Germany? It takes enormous centralized wealth and control to do these things. The big advantage of the US is that it allows a large sphere of free economic activity that generates wealth and talent, which are then available for ultra-projects.
Let me prick your typical commie Chinese propaganda bubble please!
f ebruary/17/newsid_2547000/2547811.stm
h tml
>> Tibet has been part of China more than at least 300 years ago in Qing Dynasty
India was part of the British Empire for > 200 years (starting from the time when British East India Company victory at Plassey in 1757 to Indian independence in 1947)
That does NOT give Britian any right to invade India again and capture it..
The Chinese Communist Propaganda machine uniquely and illogically takes advantage of an earlier colonisation of Tibet to justify a more recent and brutal one.
It was plain invasion and no amount of whitewashing will do away the stink.
>> China in its long history proved to be a peaceful country. Almost never invaded any neighbours, instead, attracts its neighbors with more advance culture and economy.
Wow, more propaganda!
just a few invasions of china are here.. rest can be mightly googled!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/
1979: China invades Vietnam
China has sent hundreds of troops into Vietnam after weeks of tension and a military build-up along the border.
http://www.2neatmagazines.com/life/1962cover.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/india/timeline.
16 Nov 1962 China invades India
After a short war India loses territory in the northwestern state of Jammu and Kashmir.
China still holds to occupied lands of Indian Territory in Aksai Chin.
China today threatens to invade Taiwan.
What do you want to say, China became such a large country through non-violent and peaceful means? Nay, it was through continous invasions and extermination of other nationalities that today China is predominantly and uniformly of the HAN population.. what happened to other ethnic communities of that region?
China is a bully of the region and will always remain as such.
>> is one among over 30 provinces that accepts most fund from the central government
Yeah, those funds are for Han Chinese to build factories and colonise the Tibetian Land.
Do the Tibetians profit from the money flow? Hell no.
>>Today's tibet are not oppressed by any one
When ordinary Chinese students were massacred by the Authoritative Govt. in Tiammen Sq.. what about the fate of the colonised people, one can very well guess.
Where were China's borders during the rule of Qin kingdom? Exactly, they were around the territory that belonged to his subjects, the (Han) Chinese people.
What happened to the peoples living outside those borders of the original Chinese homeland? How many wars did it take over the centuries to turn those former neighbors into minorities under Han Chinese rule?
Now, if you knew about Tibet's actual history, instead of the neo-imperialist propaganda conjured up by China's current dictators, you'd realize that only in 1950 Tibet lost its national self-determination, thanks to Mao's invading communist army. China's past god-kings have always made silly claims of ownership of foreign lands, and especially China's neighbors, but like Korea, Mongolia, Vietnam, India etc. etc. Tibet was de facto independent before the communist invasion. Heck, there are even some brave Chinese historians who understand this, but thanks to the CCP's imperial agenda the Chinese people only get to ever hear about the make-believe propaganda version.
The claim that Tibet was somehow even nominally under a Chinese despot's rule some 300 years ago -- a time of imperialism before the birth of a modern nation state -- and that nominal imperial rule should somehow translate into an acceptable modern-day occupation of one's peaceful neighbors is a violent and anachronistic claim indeed.
Why do you, as a Chinese invidual, feel the need to accept and publically support the occupation of your neighboring peoples?
Don't just take my word for it. Grow a conscience and check out even one of the uncountable videos about the tortured Tibetans who managed to escape into exile from the police state that is occupied Tibet. Talk to some of the thousands of Tibetans who escape from their own land every year (because those still under occupation are too afraid to talk, especially to the Chinese) and then come back to defend China's ongoing military occupation of Tibet.
Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?
Yeah, but still, it just sounds great when the astronaut says "Houston, we have a problem"...
-if at first you don't succeed, stay the heck away from paragliding.
You don't need 22nd century technology to accomplish this: 20th century tech. will work just fine.
If the Chinese do accomplish a moon landing, I suspect they will be able to set down anywhere they damn well please (at least after the first one or two flights). However, I seriouly doubt their objective will be an Apollo landing site.
RETURN without GOSUB in line 1050
I can see you understand well the concept of society..? How exactly do you expect to improve your own quality of life after your estate/city has been wiped out by a hurricane and flooding, without assistance/insurance/etc? We all need to help each other.. I dont especially like the government taxing everything, but they do it for a reason, to improve 'quality of life' for others as well as me. First post, and it's probably a load of bollocks >_>
which is totally what she said
I'll volunteer to be the one to blast a .50BMG thought their fuel tank.
Not that my country doesn't have issues, but China is an a different league.
At least the homeless/poor/bums in my country are making $50k a year.
Doesn't China have other issues to worry about?
Yep, I never spell check.
More incorrect spellings can be found he
looks like another cold war is looming..
What is the need for secrecy in the Chinese government about manned space flights? Certainly there are many military uses of space (the US has had many launches whose payloads were secret as well), but it seems like MANNED spaceflight is usually portrayed as primarily scientific (even if it isn't, it's still easily possible to put a purely-scientific face on it). Is China being secretive for no good reason, just because they feel like it?
Have you wondered why China is pushing so hard for Space exploration? If I may interject this, they have realized that a Space Program is the fast lane to technology. Case in point, the USA Space Program. We have more than just Tang to thank the space program for. Most of the technolgy we have today is either a direct or indirect result from space exploration. Who likes football? Who likes the abilitiy to watch every football game if they want? That's right Direct TV's Sunday ticket. Hmmm... satellite TV, Howard Hughes, government funding of video and GPS projects in the 70's. That is just one and it is entertainment orientated. Advances in polymer science, computer science, minaturization; all these effect things from Ipod's, microwaves (especially microwaves), LCD technology, safety gear that firemen use to save lives. I think you see the picture.
I eat Karma for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. That's why I don't have any.
So touchy you try to rebuff with a techniality? Hmm, must have hit close to home.
In the post cold-war and freer-trade era, there are few zero-sum games around, but apparently someone hasn't told some folk on here that the world has moved far beyond them.
With any launches now pushed to 2007 at the earliest due to foam problems and hurricane damage, I wonder if the shuttle will ever launch again. It seems to be easy for NASA to find reasons not to go into space.
Two years ago, the Chinese and their space program were dismissed as repeating missions accomplished back in the early '60s. Back then it was redundant, not progressive, not scientific or just not necessary to a lot of Americans, including a few Slashdotters.
Visions of faulty foam panels aside, I just thought it was interesting that this particular mindset is running late this morning.
Well,
Many think india is third world country. But guess what, Mumbai with it's 37 inches of rain, had aid in less than 12 hours! And there was unfortunately no forecast for them, where as Katrina was being tracked by every news channel every microsecond!
I couldn't' stop making this comparison...
Inches of rain in New Orleans due to hurricane Katrina... 18
Inches of rain in Mumbai (July 27th).... 37.1
Population of New Orleans... 484,674
Population of Mumbai.... 12,622,500
Deaths in New Orleans within 48 hours of Katrina...100
Deaths in Mumbai within 48hours of rain... 37.
Number of people to be evacuated in New Orleans... entire city...wohh
Number of people evacuated in Mumbai...10,000
Cases of shooting and violence in New Orleans...Countless
Cases of shooting and violence in Mumbai... NONE
Time taken for US army to reach New Orleans... 48hours
Time taken for Indian army and navy to reach Mumbai...12hours
Status 48hours later...New Orleans is still waiting for relief, army and
electricity
Status 48hours later. Mumbai is back on its feet and is business is as usual
USA...world's most developed nation
India...third world country...
Oopss...did i get the last fact wrong???
Especially given all the bad Chinese take-away jokes after the first launch.
"Our interests are to see if we can't scale it up to something more exciting," he said.
It'll take a few more than just 2 launches to prove themselves (and their technology). Congrats to the Chinese, but please steer away from the big shiny things up there until you've a bit more driving experience in orbit. I'm not trolling - it's simply too soon to be cosidering anything like that.
"Our interests are to see if we can't scale it up to something more exciting," he said.
That they 'feel like it'? It's simply that they've passed a threshold leading up to launch where they feel confident enough to announce. There are *many* reasons why a launch might need to be delayed (or even scrubbed) which would be seen as an embarrasment.
"Our interests are to see if we can't scale it up to something more exciting," he said.
Tibet? Peaceful? Ha! :-)
You should read about their history before Buddhism came in. No its not recent (Buddhism was introduced hundreds of years ago.), but it's just funny to me that one of the most martial cultural groups are now considered one of the most peaceful.
Anyhoo:
If you know about Tibet's actual history then you know that the Tibetan peasantry were dominated by the ruling Buddhist priest class. Sure it's all well and good to give up everything for the religion if thats what you want, but if you didn't then there wasn't anything you could do about it.
Nowadays many peasant farmers have a picture of Mao next to a picture of the Dalai Lama because "The Lama grants me heaven (in English, somewhat different concept in Tibetan) and Mao gave me land."
Yes I've studied Tibetan history specifically.
If you want to get irate over the absorbtion of differing cultures by what we now call China then you have your work cut out. There are no less than eight languages spoken in China, and dozens of dialects --- the only thing that nominally holds these languages together is that the use the same writing system.
Emperor Qin unified a great number of disparate people, not just the Han. Sure they were Han when he was through with them, but not necessarily before. That map is also overly simplistic, wikipedia's article isn't perfect but its decent enough to start with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qin_Dynasty
You just have to face the fact that China is an alien culture. Yes their human rights abuses need to stop, but if you compare US in the early 1900s when the pace of modernization was wreaking all sorts of social havok with that of modern day China which experienced and is experiencing similar growing pains; China has done a great deal better. Compare Native Americans to Tibetans. Unless you argue that we should return all land stolen from the them by the early Americans (which is a valid argument from a human rights standpoint) then you cannot speak too loudly about the Chinese encroachment into Tibet.
The native Tibetan people get to own their land. They haven't been moved to reservations. Their economy is almost 100% subsidized by the Beijing government. In short, many Tibetans are better off now than they were before 1949.
Because maybe they, umm, don't give a fark about their Tibetan neighbors, be they peaceful or otherwise?
I killed a thousand ants today. I've personally got nothing against ants - in the aggregate, a colony of them can exhibit downright clever behavior, but they were in my way.
Somewhere on antdot.org, some drone's probably wondering about why the two-legged hairless apes continue to allow the manufacture and widespread use of chemical weapons against the self-sustaining farming communities that exist in their walls.
I mean, chimpanzees eat ants from time to time. Fair enough. But the hairless apes just mindlessly kill ants by the thousand, every day. What's up with that.
Tibet is weak, and must serve their Chinese Overlords.
Wales is weak, and must serve their English Overlords.
The Aglo Saxons were weak, and must serve their norman overlords.
The cherokee were weak, and must serve their American overlords.
the cities of Old greece were week, and must serve their Turkish overlords.
point: Conqurers who screem imperialism are funny.
it might not be true for a specific case, but i think generally speaking the size of a man's dick is proportional to his stupidity level
I always look forward to hearing about the Chinese working with space. It seems to push our buttons to want to compete more.
For some reason I refuse to use either spell check or the spacebar properly.
...I want to know more about this 7 day holiday business!
Why don't you "grow a conscience" and worry about what happens in your own backyard - the American Indians have been occupied and killed systematically for centuries. Start a movement with that. Or is it because you are a hypocrite?
As far as I know, they are not astronauts.
Americans in space are astronauts,
Russians in space are cosmonauts,
Chinese in space are taikonauts.
"Taiko" as in taikong, space. "Naut" as in nautical.
So a Chinese-Greek hybrid meaning "space-sailor".
* Origin: XBase BBS (2:490/4100) Well the good old days may not return and rocks might melt and sea may burn.
who told you all the funds have been used to build HAN factories? do you even know how difficult to transport goods to/from Tibet? the only railroad is still on construction. Tibetian cultrue is damaged, and that is a sad thing. but Mao's army did free most people there that used to be DaLai Lama's slaves, and then redistributed the land to them. i think Tibet people may decide what are their best interests and whether they want to go independence or not. Even Dalai Lama said he is OK with being united with China as long as the cultures are well preserved. In terms of the two wars you mentioned, both of them are border conflicts. It does not show that China is interested in taking over the other country. Also, recently China has signed agreements with India and Vietnam regarding the border issues. The problems have been solved. And the relationship between China and these countries is very close right now. Also, most of the wars you mentioned happened when china is being controlled by communist and communism which is not a native Chinese culture. Well, everybody knows communism is promoting extreme violence. But even being controlled by this violent communism, China is still not very aggressive.
What does this have to do with China's manned spaceflight?
People should stop trying to politicize everything a country does.
You forgot to mention the hundred mile an hour winds and the 30 foot storm surge. The rain wasn't the problem. And it wasn't just New Orleans that had problems. Most of southern Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama got hit hard.
Quit your whining. Every single one of your posts are the same. Your act is tired already.
can we have our aid money back?
Space exploration is the ultimate indulgence, yes I accept that it's probably vital for Humanity's future but when you currently accept international aid it's pretty disgusting to be putting people into space on giant billion dollar rockets.
Troll? Wtf?
You don't spend billions of dollars on a frivolous space mission when you're receiving $8.9bn in aid (last year) for feeding your own people.
Guess what, had we been discussing the technical merits of the then-brand new V2 rockets in early 1940s the Nazi sympathizers would have tried modding down any debate about the Holocaust... Same would've been true about Stalin fans intent on brushing that regime's genocides under the carpet. Should we have simply debated those regimes' technical achievements in total separation of their crimes against humanity? Would you have been happy talking only about the flight charasteristics of the Zero fighter while Nanjing was being raped?
Well, the more Tibet is raped the more shame it will bring to the future generations of Chinese...
Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?
China has owned Tibet for longer than the US has owned the western states. I do not believe it was a peaceful handover. Same with Hawaii.
Would the US be just as adamant about giving that land back to the Indians as they are for the Chinese giving Tibet away?
The Taiwan debate is not as simple as to say that China is threatening to invade another country. The people of China do not believe to be another country but a renegade providence. This conflict stretches back to the civil war during WWII.\
China has many ethnicities, most restrictions such as birth control are placed on Han (this is lifting). Other ethnicities in China are given much more free reign. They are fewer, but definitly not exterminated.
It's funny and too hasty for you to call it a propaganda and urge me to grow a conscience.
,as a multi-cultrue nation of 56 minorities, there's no minoritie conflicts at all.
I am not a communist, I don't work for Chinese government, I don't even for a Chinese company.
You should first seperate communism from China while throwing stones.
Communism is a philisopy stemming from Europe and be introduced to China early last century. The Party that believes in it leads the current government over China.
China, as nation, has history thousands of years, with a different culture and tradition other than Westtern ones.
I won't talk to you about communism here, but Chinese only.
Being big is not an original sin. it does not necessarily means invasion and robbery.
The Great wall, which was built around 2500 years ago and lasts till today, was completely a defense project from the northern momadics.
Early than 400 B.C, Chinese ancient thinker has advocated the idea of "attracting, not attacking".
this idea has been one of the respected in the majority of the history. As a matter of of fact, if you really care to know, most wars in the history are out of defense. In a simplified pattern, That The nomadics eventually become part of China is primarily out the "attracting" cultrue. This also explains why
At least about 300 years ago, Tibet was an administrative region of Ch'in Dynasty, The titles Dalai Lama and BanChan(the two highest leaders in Tibet Region) was designaed by the Emporer Kangxi. It had kept the pattern until early in the 20th century, when the whole China was fallen to half-colony itself that there was local forces across China(including Tibet). When the communists defeated, in a civil war, the US-supported Nationalist government and drove them to Taiwan Island under the direct protection of US No.7 Fleet, The new government started to recover the national orders by sweeping local forces,in cluding Tibet. But contrary to what you said, there was no war in Tibet, It was a peaceful reclaimation in about 1950. Later In 1959, Dalai, out of his politic ambition, could not persuade the other leader, BanChan, into rebellion and went out of China by way of India. It was 9 years after you so-called invasion.
What's most ironic is that MILLIONS of tibetan are enjoying lives peacefully in their land, you choose to believe few hundred of the followers of a rebellion political leader.And the apparant facts proved by just one flight-ticket! you can go to Tibet as freely as you can go any where in China.
You may not have do that if you are just setting up a website to make a living in the name of Tibet. It surely earns you some fund by the propaganda of the Tibet.
By the way, you exaggerate the difference between Chinese and Japanese and Korean. Although they are not in a good relationship now. Japanese learn from Chinese to create their own language in Tang Dynasty, So did Korea. They are in fact 3 subsideries of one culture. Many modern Korean or Japanese habits are older-day's Chinese ones.
Enough has been said.
one addition.
Being colonised too long time has somewhat distort some Indian's pride, in their way to recover thire dreamed power, they choose China as an excuse. This is mean and unfair.
In the thousands of year's neighborhood between the two ancient culture, there was only one war you mentioned above. The cause was that when British colonist drawed back from India, Mac-Mahon
drawed a border which included a large area ofChines territory, and told India it's your then left. Colonists used this scheme to plant confilicts so that they could remain fluence almost everytime they were obliged to leave.
It's strange that India even since stick to that unilateral border line which was never accepted by any Chinese government.
Contrary to what you said, there are still 1,2000 Km2 Chinese territory are occupied by Indian by their intential immigrants. Any border conflicts are controversal, this is just give another perspect of the story.
What was that again??
India was colonised not just by the British, but by every other power in the continent.. the Huns, Kushans, Afghans, Persians, the far away Turks, Mongols and even the Greeks under Alexander invaded India. In Modern times, the Portugese were the first colonisers, followed by the Dutch, then the British and French.
Perhaps only the Mayans and Incas have not visited..
Invasions and being under foreign powers is nothing new for Indians, they have been under the rule of foreigers for over a MILLENNIUM!.
Most Importantly, the peaceful non-violent freedom struggle under Gandhi ensured that no British National died or blood spilled... the relative non-violent freedom ensured that India did not suffer the pangs of birthhood unlike every other former European colony. This in turn ensured friendly relationships between India and its former coloniser, UK which continues to this day in form of a Commonwealth.
Your bull about India's pride is misplaced. And what was that about Indians 'Choosing China' to be an excuse? What are you really trying to say.. kindly elaborate.
Tibet was a natural buffer between China and India.. Tibet took the blunt of all Chinese aggressions and thus India was spared all along.. Also, the Himalayas act as a natural barrier for Chinese to cross.
Thus, a combination of Tibet factor and geography was the reason for China NOT INVADING INDIA for a long time in history.. not because the Chinese are such good neighbours.
The Treachery of the Chinese against their neighbours is almost legendary.
Let the economist speak:
http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?
This diatribe of owning keeps sprouting up every time Tibet is mentioned.
Tibet is no 'article' to be owned, Its a nation of people. They cannot be owned. If you keep thinking Tibet to be just a piece of land that can change hands, can be bought/sold/seized, you are particularly wrong. It is about a people, not just their land.
Chinese logic is that China had control over Tibet for a really long time.. about 300 years and this gives them automatic reason to hold Tibet and Tibetians under their rule and occupation till the end of time or untill Tibet as it ever existed ceases to be.
Tibetians are NOT han chinese. They are a different nation. There is no similarity between them. The religion, culture, language, dress, cuisine, every fundamental marker that distinguishes civilizations from each other differ in case of the Tibetians and Chinese.
As every other nation, the Tibetians are entitled to freedom and self-rule. Period.
THe Past Colonisation of China is NOT a valid reason for continued occupation of Tibet by China.
Human rights: the fewer said about it in relation to China, the better.
About Taiwan: It has seceded from the mainland is true, but today, it is a seperate nation per se and the threat to use overwhelming force to bring about a reunion is just revolting. How about a referendum to settle the issue once and for all instead?
>> And the apparant facts proved by just one flight-ticket! you can go to Tibet as freely as you can go any where in China.
/vs/ The new government started to recover the national orders by sweeping local forces,in cluding Tibet)
You mean to say that just because I can go to Tibet with an airticket means Tibetians are free under the Chinese rule? And thats proof that Tibetians can elect their own government democratically and exercise their rights that all other civilised nations take for granted?
>>The Great wall, which was built around 2500 years ago and lasts till today, was completely a defense project from the northern momadics.
Exacly.. that great wall was the boundary of once HAN Chinese Nation.. look how far the Han have suceeded in extending their nation beyond! ANd in the process, destroyed every other ethnic community and tribes that existed on those plains.
Now, the greatwall of china is no boundary wall, its well inside the country. Where exactly will the Han Chinese draw their boundary once and for all?
>>But contrary to what you said, there was no war in Tibet, It was a peaceful reclaimation in about 1950.
Peaceful reclaimation eh? Reclaiming a part of the land using soldiers is called peaceful?
The whole issue isn't about LAND. Its about a people.
Even if we say for example, the Chinese have the right over that land called Tibet, what bout the people, does the Han Chinese claim to have overlordship over the Tibetian people too?
>>At least about 300 years ago, Tibet was an administrative region of Ch'in Dynasty
Some time ago, the present US of A was an administrative region of Great Britian.. Mexico of Spain, Canada of France and so on.. what right does that give a former coloniser to invade another land and occupy it citing former possession??
>>Being big is not an original sin. it does not necessarily means invasion and robbery
Being big might not be a sin, but BECOMING big by swallowing up smaller nations/people/tribes is surely a sin which the Han had always committed throughout history.
>> You should first seperate communism from China while throwing stones
Why? can't you defend communist China? Are you ashamed of Red China? Do you want to free China from the Communist Yoke? Welcome to the army of the real free then!
>>Communism is a philisopy stemming from Europe and be introduced to China early last century. The Party that believes in it leads the current government over China.
Are you shifting the guilt??
Does the fact that Communism arose from Europe in any way whitewash the fact that the Maoist communism kills and rules authoritatively in China?
So you want Europe to shoulder the guilt of developing communism now eh?
>>The new government started to recover the national orders by sweeping local forces,in cluding Tibet
So you 'recover national order' by sweeping local forces eh?
Just somewhere you claimed peaceful reclaimation and now you say 'sweeping local forces'.. how exactly do you 'peacefully sweep' armed forces.. care to explain??
(ref: quoting you: It was a peaceful reclaimation in about 1950
>> What's most ironic is that MILLIONS of tibetan are enjoying lives peacefully in their land
Tibetians 'enjoying' their life or that there is relative 'peace' in Tibet is NOT THE MATTER.
Freedom is the issue! Can't you understand?
The Tibetians need no peace nor enjoyments or material prosperity UNDER The Chinese. They want FREEDOM.. you just can't substitute freedom with prosperity and peace. There are different things.
First Freedom. and then the Tibetians will give themseles the enjoyment and peace they need.
I agree with your overall point, but China never controlled Tibet. It laid claim to Tibet and received some tribute. It did not administer Tibet in detail as it did the eastern provinces. Thing is, China at that time claimed the whole world. The "Middle Kingdom" meant everything between heaven and hell. In the Imperial view, there were barbarous places which they had not deigned to exact tribute, but that was in no sense acknowledgement of other sovereigns. Also, there was no seccession, and the PRC is in rebellion from Taiwan, not the other way around. The Taiwan government derives its power from the pre-Communist Chinese government while the PRC is a more recent invention which gained power though a successful insurrection.
>>Freedom is the issue! Can't you understand?
Please just apply that to Native Americans and just keep shouting as loudly as you do now.