Talking 'Bout A Revolution

Now that the weekend has passed, folks from all over have had their chance to speak up about the revolution behind the Revolution. Hugh Williams writes "The blokes at Next Generation decided to ask a bunch of game designers, media and analysts what they thought about Nintendo's new Revolution Controller. Some were a little skeptical. Others were downright in love." Additionally, Heartless Gamer writes "Heartless Gamer blog has initial comments up regarding the Revolution controller, but more importantly comments on the various reactions around the internet regarding the controller." Finally, LATRINE! writes "Whether you like it or not, the Nintendo Revolution is on the way. Brittlefish has an article discussing some of the challenges Nintendo will face in gaining acceptance in the market."

Comments

Lost Garden

[Apreche]

The genius over at Lost Garden keeps falling under the radar. He consistently has the best articles on the net. His piece on the revolution, and Nintendo in general, is no different. If you read one thing about the revolution, make it this.

Re:Lost Garden

[rAiNsT0rm]

Look I'm not trying to start an argument, but the person you linked to has no real grasp of what he speaks about. Sure, it all sounds logical and thoughtful, but most is simply not true. I've worked in the industry and have a very initmate knowledge of the media/marketing/numbers side of the game.

His attempt to claim that all of the onus is on the game players is very far off-base. Also, his talk about Nintendo and how they "create genres" in the early stages because it is the most profitable is so wildly untrue it stopped me dead. Nintendo may use a fairly (on the surface) basic look, but that is a sylistic artistic direction and is NOT "cheaper" than creating a game with ultra-realistic graphics. In fact, if you take the time to look, Nintendo tends to utilize EVERY hardware feature in every game as far as graphics are concerned. Also it is just plain false that to create the first in a genre is cheaper because it is simpler and has less content. Totally false. Innovation carries a much higher cost than simply following suit and making a few improvements.

I'm sorry but this guys work gets passed over because it is not backed by any credibility or factual insight. It is just my opinion, but a genius he is not.

Re:Lost Garden

[cowscows]

Is using EVERY hardware feature in every game what makes games expensive to make? I wouldn't think so. I'd hope that the hardware is there to make things easier for the developer. I think that the particular point of the Lost Garden writer was that the stylized look probably requires less artist effort, and that's where the savings come from. I don't work in the industry, but it's my understanding that that's where the bulk of the money for a big game goes. Content, not programming. It would certainly seem to me that creating all the textures for mario baseball was easier than creating all the textures for GTA: San Andreas. Most of the stuff in the mario universe is just plain colors.

I don't think he was talking about your average clone game, I think he was talking about the big names. Certainly EA isn't spending millions upon millions of dollars every year adding another layer of polish to their latest Madden installment, but that's not really what he was talking about. How long did it take for Valve to finish Half-life 2? How many dollars did they spend on that? It's a great game, no doubt, but it's really just an evolution of the original HL. It has much fancier graphics, meaning it needed much fancier models, and much fancier textures, and better sounds, etc. etc. I can imagine Nintendo reusing a lot of the artwork within their franchises, and instead using their time to work more on the ideas and the gameplay. Which, i think, is one of the reasons that their fanboys are at least forgiving, and often supportive of Nintendo's constant use of franchises.

Although as a sort of relevant note, Nintendo no doubt understands how cheap it is to do a quick update (see the pile of crap that is Donkey Konga 2). So they do do that too sometimes.

Re:Lost Garden

[steveo777]

Here! Here! Read some of it as well. He does a good job with referencing dictionary words and correlating them to relatable definitions within his subject matter. It's when he starts speculating that makes you realize that he hasn't done his homework.

In other words, I agree with the parent post.

Re:Lost Garden

[rAiNsT0rm]

See, you miss the point. I will try to explain. When Henry Ford created the first mass-produced automobile, it was pretty basic, didn't have any features, not a lot of "content." When the next automobile manufacturer came along they took what was there and improved a bit on it and was able to create more "content." But even though the first one was "simpler" the real investment was in the thinking, planning, and execution. The second guy only had to put effort into the improvements. Much cheaper. Same thing with games.

Ever look at World of Warcraft? "Simple" graphics, but simplicity is just as much an artistic style as detailed. Costs are the same, and in most cases MORE for the simple look. Anyone can do detail, there are tons of realistic textures available cheap to where no artistic skill is even needed... there are none for original content. If you understand the technology you quickly see where Niintendo is not taking the easy way out. Look at how much effort is put into physics, and water ripples, and transparency layers, and true bump mapping, and many many more. The cheap way out is in realism. I grab a realistic texture of a sidewalk and slap it on a flat plain and it "appears" to have depth and texture, but is just a single layer texture. Now look at a nintendo game where they have a seperate layer for Texture, bump mapping, reflection, etc. That is NOT cheap, that is detail.

Until you have done texture work, game programming, and design it is very easy to make bold claims like you have and claim that Nintendo uses "simple" graphics that are "cheap" to produce. Here's an example: Make an abstract painting... Now make a *GOOD* abstract painting, it's a whole hell of a lot easier to just paint a tree.

Re:Lost Garden

[Irish_Samurai]

Stylized artwork requires more time and effort up front. Simple color palettes are a bitch because everything either starts to blend together or begins to clash. Add in simple models and you have design problems caused by completely opposing reasons than realism.

Making something realistic is only hindered by the system resources (Disk Space for textures, graphic rendereing, texture rendering, streaming, ect.), whereas a very simple and clean design using minimal resources becomes a very difficult exercise. If it's too simple, the design is unappealing and the graphics look "dated", if it's to complex with it's limited resources - it gets convoluted and difficult to look at. A perfect example would be Magic Pengel, that game was awesome - yet navigating that town would give you a headache.

Another example would be Ico or the upcoming Shadow of the Colossus. These are beautiful, simply designed art games with great gameplay. And that simple, stylized design was a bitch to pull off. The developers approach was to minimalize what you needed to make a great game, and said that it was really difficult to take components away and still deliver good gameplay. And ultimately, it results in a critically acclaimed, underselling title. On the business side of things, thats not necessarily a good thing.

As far as content being a major cost, I think the leader in that department would be the licensing of content. Music from bands you know, Logos and Players from real life teams, and voices from actors you recognize all cost a pretty penny. If you don't want to license music you can create your own music (expensive) or use cheap, crappy music - which will kill your title. If you don't want to use recognized logos and players, have fun creating all that stuff from scratch and making it feel real world. And if you don't want to use recognized voice actors, or live actors, enjoy cutting and pasting the script.

Re:Lost Garden

[pnice]

I think the reason Nintendo did the update to Donkey Konga was the same reason all music/rhythm games do it, to add additional music.

Look at Konami or Namco. In Japan there are 8 versions of Taiko Drum Master for the PS2 and 11 versions of Beatmania for the Playstation and 8 versions of Beatmania IIDX for the PS2. It's all about the additional music and songs. Even in the US you can look at something like Karaoke Revolution or Dance Dance Revolution, they both have three versions for the PS2.

Re:Lost Garden

[cowscows]

That's exactly why they did it. Except they did a bad job. They picked a lot of contemporary pop music that sounds appealing to a target audience. But when you play the game, you realize that many of the songs are not a good fit for the game.

With the original, they picked a wide variety of music types. Some of the songs are pretty stupid if you ask me, but with just a couple exceptions, the bongo-ing seems to fit. Konga 2 is missing that, in my opinion.

Of course, one could argue that after Rock Lobster, any sequel was bound to fall short.

Re:Lost Garden

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking of correlating words to definitions, it's "hear hear."

Re:Lost Garden

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to disagree with your points because I agree with you 100%, but define GOOD abstract painting? That's so vague it's not even funny. Horrible example. I've seen paintings so bad my little daughter could have done a better job yet they are beloved and worth lots of money.

Otherwise great job. I agree with you.

Re:Lost Garden

[Anonymous Coward]

You should check out the list for the European versions. You can bongo to Tubthumping and two Jamiroquai tunes - including the kickass song Napoleon dances to at the end of Napoleon Dynamite.

Re:Lost Garden

[MMaestro]

Nintendo may use a fairly (on the surface) basic look, but that is a sylistic artistic direction and is NOT "cheaper" than creating a game with ultra-realistic graphics.

Ultra-realistic graphics are "cheaper" than sylistic artistic direction?! Holy crap! Why the hell are so many PC gamers paying out of the nose for cutting edge, high-end video cards just so they can turn the resolution up on modern PC games then?!

By your logic, console gaming should've died during in the mid/late-90s when games like Quake, Half-Life, MMORPGs and Total Annihilation dominated the technical aspects of video gaming. Huge 3D worlds, a FPS with puzzles, a storyline AND brilliant (for the time) AI, an online world that NEVER stopped and a RTS that melded tactics (your units could dodge attacks if you reacted quickly enough), strategy (the constant add-on units meant new strategies would be created every week) and instant adaptation required on the part of players (first day of a newly added unit, do you experiment with it and pray it doesn't get countered or go tried and true and hope the new unit doesn't render your strategy obsolete?)

cradle/shell

[muyuubyou]

Maybe if anyone mentioned the cradle/shell, many more people would consider Nintendo's controller less suicide...
Linky:
http://cube.ign.com/articles/651/651559p1.html
I wonder why I had to find this info by chance, considering all the coverage around this.

Re:cradle/shell

[justforaday]

Thanks for the link. I've been looking for something about the shells. However, something people should note: the picture in the IGN article is a mock-up made by IGN. It is in no way the real thing.

Re:cradle/shell

[Anonymous Coward]

Regardless, IGN claim to have had Nintendo executives verify that a controller shell very similar to a wavebird will be released.

I just hope that it will be included with each Revolution. However, Nintendo have only stated that the thumb controller and 'remote' will be included with the Revolution.

Re:cradle/shell

[MindStalker]

Though it is the first to mention the removable back which I hadn't read elsewhere. I assume this is to make the "remote" lighter and thinner so it can easily slide into controller. The standard remote is way to big for such a feature.

Re:cradle/shell

[Irish_Samurai]

OK, this makes way more sense. I haven't been keeping up on the Revolution very much as I usually wait for the fandom and speculation to settle down before I begin to do research.

My first thoughts on that remote were:
"That's pretty damn cool. I wonder what a lightsaber game would be like with it."

My second thoughts were:
"How the hell am I going to play an action game with that? I don't think anyone is going to develop for the system with those restrictions."

This cradle just alleviated my fears. I have shyed away from Nintendo since I got burned on the 64, but if this lives up to it's potential - it will get me back.

Re:cradle/shell

[eht]

Maybe you missed the part where they said "Nintendo has not yet released official imagery of what the controller shell might look like."

Nintendo WILL be releasing some kind of shell, and even if Nintendo did not, some third party would within about two minutes.

Re:cradle/shell

[pnice]

Nintendo WILL be releasing some kind of shell, and even if Nintendo did not, some third party would within about two minutes.

Which would satisfy the people that like to play fighting games but hate the way the Nintendo control is setup. An official Nintendo fighting shell with the standard 6 button setup like old school street fighter. That would be nice.

Re:cradle/shell

[Psiven]

That mockup is such crap. IGN is not helping Nintendo in this case.

Re:cradle/shell

[Anonymous Coward]

If Nintendo pushes the shell as the main way to use this controller they have lost the major benefit of it; if this was simply a standard controller that could be tilten no one except for nintendo would do anything worthwile with it. By forcing developers to use the 'standard configuration' of the Revolution controller it forces them to design unique gameplay.

Re:cradle/shell

[DiarmuidBourke]

I don't get what the "restrictions" are with this controller. (I know you changed your mind, but I'm addressing all the people who still think it's restrictive) It's by far the simplest, most intuitive, unrestrictive controller to date. Your givin true 3d movement with the controller, point and click, and it allows 3rd parties (hopefully) to develop their own "dongles" for it.

Nintendo designed this controller for 3d FPS/RPG/Racing/Arcade/etc.. including also but not least, action games!!!(although don't they fit in with what i listed?) They didn't sit down and say "lets make a tv remote and claim it can do...".

If people don't develop for this system, it can be their loss. If you don't try, you won't know. I may be a fanboi (without having any current games console) but Nintendo sure have me excited about this console.

Now, I'm off to celebrate my birthday.

Re:cradle/shell

[Derkec]

Cradle rocks. I'm not convinced by the pinpoint passes in Madden. Seems tricky. But in soccer games, I can never get the proper angle on a through pass and if this controller can get me close, excellent. Same for running one way and shooting another in either soccer or hockey games. Mostly, I think that being able to jerk the controller around in order to do jukes in any of those games would be fun.

Actually, in football, I'd be thrilled with a tilt sensitive passing. Tilt right and QB throws a little to the right, same for left, up and down. Throwing low for safety would nice as would being able to throw to the safer side of a reciever who is checking back on a hook right. Oooh. Juicy.

Re:cradle/shell

[Irish_Samurai]

It's a matter of ergonomics. Playing a FPS with this controller might be awesome, but how long before holding your arm out at the screen gets tiring. Try holding your arm out straight for as long as you can and see how quickly it gets old. It is true, you will probably shift positions by then, but how many comfortable positions are there to use this controller. If I'm reading correctly, the Nintendo controller can read back and forward motions. Well, that indicates it must be pointed at the screen. Well, that gets kinda annoying. I don't have to point my TV or DVD remote at their respective machines to get them to work, just in the general vacinity. Something tells me that this is not the case with a game controller.

Built for action games? How? The control schemes of the action games I play require multiple buttons to enable a wide array of actions. There s no way in hell I could play Price of Persia or GTA with that thing, not unless the whole interface design was overhauled. That is the major hurdle.

Nintendo really could pull this off if their SDK came with some method of automatically translating the control schemes of the other two boxes towards the controls of this "remote". It wouldn't have to be perfect mind you, but decent enough to give the developers a nice starting point. This could significantly cut down on interface/control translation time, which in my opinion in the second largest hurdle this controller has.

Like I said before, the draw to trying this controller out is that I can cradle it if I don't like the way it works - not a huge loss.

It's by far the simplest, most intuitive, unrestrictive controller to date.

Man, how would you know? Have you played it? Have you seen any games running it? Have you even felt how heavy it was or how solidly constructed it is? The answer is no, you haven't. Please don't pass off opinion as fact.

If people don't develop for this system, it can be their loss. If you don't try, you won't know.

If people develop for this system, and it doesn't take off - it's their loss too. And you can know before you try, it's called market analysis.

Re:cradle/shell

[cowscows]

I don't understand why so many people are planning on using this controller by pointing their whole arm at the screen all day. I can easily imagine slouching in the couch and holding the controller in my lap, making just very slight movements to control things. It isn't really like a laser pointer that has to be aimed directly where you want to go. I'd imagine the "tracking speed" can be adjusted just like a computer mouse. Just like I only have to move my mouse a couple inches to move my cursor fifteen inches across m monitor, the revolution controller should allow for short quick movements to scale up on the screen.

And for the "built for action games" deal, you sort of answered your own question. The whole interface design will be overhauled. The question is, will this new control scheme work better than the old one. It's hard to say at this point.

It's important to realize that the controllers that we have today didn't really evolve to fit today's games, but neither did the games evolve to fit the controllers. There's been a lot of back and forth compromises. Nintendo's forcing the issue a little bit here, for third party developers at least, by making them do some serious adapting to the controller. I guess they have faith in it working well. We'll just have to wait and see.

Re:cradle/shell

[Irish_Samurai]

I don't understand why so many people are planning on using this controller by pointing their whole arm at the screen all day

I think it's because the description of the controller described its reciever as going under and beside your TV, that seemingly denotes a tracking based system.

The whole interface design will be overhauled. The question is, will this new control scheme work better than the old one. It's hard to say at this point.

That is a big ass jump. To redesign established control schemes for established genres is not only difficult, it would require a learning curve. That curve, no matter how slight, would turn some gamers off and lower sales. That is a factor developers have to look at. It is entirely possible that the "gotta have the new stuff" crowd and fanboy base would offset that though.

Nintendo's forcing the issue a little bit here, for third party developers at least, by making them do some serious adapting to the controller. I guess they have faith in it working well. We'll just have to wait and see.

This is basically what I'm saying. It's a good move to have a cradle type add on as I would still have the option to play games in a more conventional manner if I didn't like the new controller. It's also good for the developers who would be able to rely on the current "standard" control schemes to be available to them.

Re:cradle/shell

[Rayonic]

Not to inspire panic, but how well have perhiperals done in the console arena again?

Mind you, an addon that is needed for backwards compatibility, and is available at launch, might succeed. Come to think of it, I guess that's what Microsoft is counting on too.

Re:cradle/shell

[Castar]

I think it's kind of sad that some people's first thoughts, when seeing something totally new is "Great! Now how can I get it to look and act exactly like my old one?"

I'm glad that Nintendo hasn't said a whole lot about "shells" for the controller. The potential is obviously there, and I'm positive that companies will make clones of dualshocks and wavebirds, but that's not the point. That's taking something flexible and molding it into the same old shape.

Ideally, the shells would be cheap enough that game developers could release them on a per-game basis. Instead of the old way of adapting your game to the controls that are offered, you get to imagine the ideal control scheme and provide that interface. I don't think this will actually happen, but hopefully it will at least lower the barrier to entry for exciting new game interfaces.

viva la revolution!

[j3rryh]

Whether or not the revolution makes it, I beleive that the controller scheme is here to stay. Perhaps not the ergonomics of it, but I mean DAMN there are SOOOO many things you can do with spatial mapping. I think big N has done it again. -j3rry

Whether it works out or not....

[TheBrakShow]

I applaud Nintendo for actually innovating. There is so much new technology out there and most of it is going untapped. I think the concern is similar to that of people's issue with the DS. Is it gimmicky for the sake of being gimmicky or is it really something special?

Re:Whether it works out or not....

[sdhankin]

I couldn't agree more - inovation is important and Nintendo is second to none in this area. But all the inovation in the world will come to naught if the games built around it aren't fun.
The DS as a prime example. It's undoubtably inovative, but I haven't seen a compelling game for it yet (defined as one that would make me go out and get a DS to play it.)

Inovation is not an end in itself. Games that are fun to play are essential if the inovation is to be adopted.

Re:Whether it works out or not....

[tolan-b]

I guess you haven't been following the DS very closely then.

Ok if you purely define it as games that make *you* want to go out and buy it then fine, but the DS has been an incredible success, and its innovative games are getting rave reviews.

my plan

[thebdj]

I will get an XBox once they price drop the thing for XBox 360 launch. Then considering I haven't owned a Nintendo console since NES, well maybe it is time to buy one with the Revolution. Seriously, it wouldn't be the first time I took a chance on a console, I still own and LOVE my Dreamcast after all...Nothing beats a console that doesn't need a mod chip to run homebrews or other programs, including MP3 and divx support. Still need to find a broadband adapter for the thing though....

Re:my plan

[Meagermanx]

That's what I'm gonna do too. I'm gonna put up a flyer on my campus bulletin board offering 40 or 50 dollars plus more for games/extra controllers once the 360 comes out. I'm planning on using wording like this:
"Need money for drugs, alcohol, prostitutes, or gas? Sell that old, outdated XBOX your parents bought you!"
Hey, I indirectly got a GBA from a girl who wanted drinking money. Best $10.00 I ever spent.

Re:my plan

[rAiNsT0rm]

And you are exactly NOT in the demographic Sony and MS are targeting. This is not a bad thing either, as they are targeting the less savvy "hip/trendy." Anyone with enough brains to see the logic behind your plan is not in their market.

These two new systems are the equivalent of a Ferrari or Lambo. They are mad fast, contain all types of whiz-bang features, look flashy... but have to be driven at 1/3rd their capacity due to road conditions/police/speed limits/weather. The average person (even if they had the cash) would go for something more practical... exactly what you are proposing to do.

I recently traded in a bunch of PS2 titles on a GameCube and Mario Party, Donkey Konga 1&2, and a few other titles and paid $6.00 TOTAL. We've had more fun and laughs in the past month than I've had on the PS2 over it's entire lifespan. At some point most gamers see through the hype and glitz and to the reality. All of those same people will be buying a Revolution. Smart consumers are not in Sony or MS's gameplan at all with this launch.

Re:my plan

[mausmalone]

Well, at least with a Revolution, you can play some of the SNES and N64 games you missed out on. I personally just hope the download games are cheap (like a buck or two) instead of the ridiculous prices they charge for GBA classic games.

Re:my plan

[brkello]

Listen, Nintendo is great...but you really don't get it. The casual gamer likes the games that the other consoles have more than the games on Nintendo. They want the Maddens and the Halos and the Final Fantasies. Nintendo will stay profitable and keep their niche. Smart consumers will buy the console with the games they want. To you and many others, Nintendo is a smart choice. But seriously, quit placing your values on other people though just because of your bias.

Odd people quoted in Links

[smbarbour]

In the second link, what they thought about Nintendo's new Revolution Controller , scroll down the page and find the comment from Chris Melissinos, who apparently is the Chief Gaming Officer for Sun Microsystems.

Since when did Sun have a games division?

Re:Odd people quoted in Links

[MendicantMonkey]

Since when did Sun have a games division?

I believe this started when they decided Java should try to stake a claim in game programming territory. There was some initial talk of positioning Java as a cross-platform solution, and I think that worked out for them in the mobile space, rather than the console space where everyone was talking about it.

Has anyone heard of any console titles using a JVM? I'm curious.

Re:Odd people quoted in Links

[heli0]

https://games.dev.java.net/

Re:Odd people quoted in Links

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.javagaming.org/

Sun?

[Tim Browse]

From TFA:

Chris Melissinos
Chief Gaming Officer, Sun Microsystems

Chief Gaming Officer at Sun Microsystems? That's got to be one cushy number. Sign me up for that.

Then again, I suppose crappy Java games for mobile devices don't just write themselves! :-)

Re:Sun?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah....all of those crappy mobile games. I guess all $3B worth of them that sold last year completely sucked eh?

Re:Sun?

[Anonymous Coward]

Forum for the Java Gaming Community. http://192.18.37.44/forums/index.php A few years ago, Sun setup a Java Gaming Division. They were supposed to have released a JVM for the Playstation 2. Didn't work out becuase of lack of enthusiasm as well as unjustified beliefs. I have written more than a few PC Games in Java. Soon, I'll be starting on a FPS written with the LWJGL. Java is not as slow as they say. P.S. Sun doesn't develop those crappy games you speak of. They merely develop the language. Speak with the developer if you think they are crappy.

Will it really work?

[thundar2000]

I've tried experimental controllers like this before that work spatialy, and they never feel quite right. They just don't have a solid enough feel - sometimes it is because of latency issues, other times you just don't get a good sense of the bounds of movement like a analog pad gives you.

But having said that, if any company can get it right and move the whole industry in a different direction, it is Nintendo.

Re:Will it really work?

[AvitarX]

Wario Ware:twisted works real well.

it gives feed back on the movement (clicked or shaking or something, very subtle) so that you know you are moving it. I have heard no reviews about this, but it could be used (there is a rumble) and would stop if you left the bounds.

I persoanlly am horrified it is going to be a sucky gimmick though, of course I thought meh touch screen will be teh suk, but apperently the two screens and the touch screen add a lot of possibilities that do indded work (kirby for example), so Nintendo has earned the benifit of the doubt sort of.

Re:Will it really work?

[some guy on slashdot]

Ditto that. If the Revolution contains the same technology that's in the Warioware: Twisted cartridge, which is likely, it will be insanely intuitive and responsive. I think the gyroscope inside the Twisted cart may also double as a low-vibration rumble pak - although I have no idea how that would be built exactly. To tell the truth, I've been hoping and praying that the Revolution uses the same thing, because as much as I love the interaction in Twisted, spinning the screen along with the controller is a little nauseating.

With a flourish, I give you my Unified Theory of Revolution Controller Operation. I think that most of the positional and rotational data is going to be taken by a gyro/accelerometer inside the controller itself. IR sensors will be used to double check position and keep the system calibrated, but positional data for the purpose of streaming info to the console will likely be generated inside the controller. The IR sensors will be input-only, the results going to the console instead of being beamed back to the cotroller. The IR sensors will calibrate at a lower refresh cycle, say, once every second. They will also be used to "tell" the system what direction the screen is in and approximately where its bounding box is at startup. Because the IR sensor on the Revolution is mounted on the front, the system will be able to tell if the initial position of the controller is facing the screen's bounding box. The controller will not stop streaming gyro/acelerometer data if it goes out of bounds. (If this is all true, some interesting gameplay ideas arise at the idea manipulating the controller "out of bounds" to produce certain effects - such as the classic reload function.)

Controller Intimidation Factor

[siegesama]

Yes, it looks like a DVD remote. Which is a good thing for most non-gamers because it is familiar.

This argument is driving me crazy. Are there really people out there who look at a video game controller and say "oh my god, that's so scary, I cannot possibly fathom it! run away!!" Maybe. Are these people capable of playing a video game, even with the simplest of controllers? Doubtful.

Humans are fantastic at mapping thought to motion. Typing, playing musical instruments, walking, dancing, swimming, driving a car: give us feedback for a minute motion, and we learn bloody fast.

I'm fine with using spatial mapping as a controlling scheme, it sounds awesome. But stop pushing it like they're trying to lure all of the retarded monkeys they can possibly find into gaming with the magic non-scary stick.

Re:Controller Intimidation Factor

[Meagermanx]

Insightful.
I don't know anyone who's 'scared' of gaming controllers like they describe. Everyone is willing to try out a controller, even old people. Of course the results are mixed, but as long as you don't use a Gamecube controller, you get used to it pretty fast.
I think their only problem is not giving the player more buttons and sticks. You want these guys to design games that will not only stand up to the modern market, but also attract non/casual gamers, and you're only giving them two buttons to work with? Good plan there, Big N.

Another, more offtopic theory: Our generation games, right (I'm 17)? So most of the non-gamers are dying off, right? So this leaves Nintendo's plan where, exactly, in a few years?

Re:Controller Intimidation Factor

[cowscows]

I think it makes perfect sense. My mom wasn't terrified of the gamecube controller, but she couldn't manage to play any games that required you to use more than the thumbstick and the A button. So she could play Mario Kart at least halfway competently pretty quickly, but she'd get frustrated with almost immediately. And forget something like Metroid Prime.

Even I get frustrated sometimes, and I've been playing plenty of video games for almost twenty years. It took me a couple hours to get comfortable with the controls on Halo 2, and i still hit the wrong buttons often enough. It's entirely complex, and if you haven't built up the muscle memory over time, it's got to be overwhelming.

I am capable of using a controller with a whole bunch of buttons, but I'd rather not. There's nothing immersive about it, it's not particularly fun. I think Nintendo's really got a great idea here, and if the implementation is solid, it'll be a ton of fun. And that'll make people less afraid of it. Even retarded monkeys like to have fun.

Re:Controller Intimidation Factor

[Headcase88]

On top of this, the remote control shape just makes sense; it's easy to point with. Try pointing a current-gen controller around, you won't get very far. Why are remote controls shaped the way they are? Because that's the best way to design a one-handed controller. (Of course the Revolution controller is smaller than most remotes for what should be obvious reasons).

Re:Controller Intimidation Factor

[Otter]

Are there really people out there who look at a video game controller and say "oh my god, that's so scary, I cannot possibly fathom it! run away!!"

You bet. Lots of them.

Are these people capable of playing a video game, even with the simplest of controllers?

Of course they are. One might certainly ask how much money is to be gained from those people (mostly 30 and over) regardless of the simplicity of the controller. But there are plenty of non-moronic people who find a Playstation or XBox controller intimidating

Humans are fantastic at mapping thought to motion. Typing, playing musical instruments, walking, dancing, swimming, driving a car: give us feedback for a minute motion, and we learn bloody fast.

Yeah, it's not like anyone has ever looked at a piano and said "Gee, that's too hard to learn." Look at all the "musicians" who have embraced "mash-up" crap as an alternative to learning a real instrument. Are they all "retarded monkeys"? OK, they are, but nonetheless there are non-morons who are scared off by overly complex gaming.

Re:Controller Intimidation Factor

[mateo demoni]

Humans are fantastic at mapping thought to motion.

Humans are also fantastic at ignoring things that intimidate them. A typical gamepad may indeed be easy to pick up and play, but you and I take this for granted. Mom? Not as much.

Re:Controller Intimidation Factor

[grumbel]

### Are there really people out there who look at a video game controller and say "oh my god, that's so scary, I cannot possibly fathom it! run away!!"

Sort answer? Yes. There are actually people on this planet that want to have fun while playing video games and want to have that instantly, not after 10 hours getting used to the controller. Heck, even myself, with a good solid 20 years of computer and video gaming, needed a few hours to get adopted to the XBox controller, and I am still pressing the wrong buttons every now and then (bad, bad analog-stick-click buttons).

Just look in an arcade, are all those people incapable of playing video games? Hell, no, they are just playing them, but they play different kinds of games then the guy who is sitting at home infront of his XBox or PS2.

Re:Controller Intimidation Factor

[Chazmyrr]

Yeah, cause those of us that are over 30 don't know how to play these new-fangled video game thingies. Buy yourself a clue and get back to us with a theory that isn't based on the idea that 30 equals really old.

Even my parents aren't intimidated by the controllers. My mom tends to be intimidated by games like SSX where she has to press 5 buttons at the same time while simultaneously using both the D-pad and the analog stick, but that's something else entirely. Give her a nice platformer and she's fine. Did I mention she's getting close to 60? Granted, she may not be the average mom when it comes to video games, but you need to give older people a little more credit.

Re:Controller Intimidation Factor

[Otter]

You've jumped to the wrong conclusion about me.

My point isn't "poeple ovr 30 r 2 old 2 use teh computarz lol!!11". It's "I have trouble getting my fellow oldsters to play with me, as a lot of them grew up on Atari 2600s and are intimidated by new controllers."

Re:Controller Intimidation Factor

[Chazmyrr]

LOL. Ok, I'll buy that. Still the new controllers are easier than those damn Colecovision monstrosities. My experience has been the opposite. Most of my peer group plays games on the new consoles because it's something they can do with their kids. Many of the college students I meet don't have a clue how to play video games.

Re:Controller Intimidation Factor

[LKM]

Are there really people out there who look at a video game controller and say "oh my god, that's so scary, I cannot possibly fathom it! run away!!"

Uhm. No. But lots of people don't want to play games because they have never used a controller and are afraid of embarassing themselves. Seriously, modern controllers are not easy to learn. If you started out on, say, the SNES, moved to the Playstation and eventually to the PS2, you never had to learn a lot of new stuff. But somebody picking up a Gamecube controller who has never had a controller in his hands right now needs to learn a heck of a lot of stuff right away.

First of all, there are three "direction controllers" on on a modern pad (the cross and two analog sticks). Then you have your normal assortment of buttons and between two and four shoulder buttons, some of them analog.

Whenever people are around my place, we usually play games like Mario Kart: Double Dash. Fortunately, you can have two players on one kart, so experienced players can help out new players. But even so, if you want to, say, switch position after the first lap, it's confusing. "Press the Z button" - "What button?" - "It's the small button above R" - "R???" - "Where your index finger is, R is for right, L is for left." - "There's no button where my index finger is!" and during all of this, they have to keep controlling the game.

Lots of people just go "Oh, you play, I'll just watch, I'm too bad at games.".

Having a controller like this will make it a whole lot easier to get into gaming.

Re:Controller Intimidation Factor

[AvitarX]

D-PAD = 4 buttons.

I just hope they come with (probably won't), or at least have ready at launch (hopefullt) the anolog stick attachement so that games are designed with them. Otherwise with "shells" and "Nunchakas" and basic controlers all games are going to be designed for the Lowest common demoniator.

Re:Controller Intimidation Factor

[realityfighter]

Hehehe...funny story....

We had a New Year's party where someone noticed our DK bongos and decided we should all play. One of the guys at the party was a drummer, and so he thought that he would totally own at the game...but then we got to the bit with the controller. It didn't respond the way he expected a real drum to respond, and then he had to CLAP? What kind of shit was this? He lost one round to a girl who was experienced at the game and sulked in the corner the rest of the night, mumbling about how he hated the game. It was badly made because he couldn't win without trying. Saaad...

Game controllers are precision instruments, man. Even the obvious ones.

Re:Controller Intimidation Factor

[MendicantMonkey]

Well, I'm not quite twice your age. Smack in the middle of the so-called Generation X. We had Atari 2600s in grade school, probably making us the first to "grow up" with gaming.

At least early on, my parents played with me, when typical games were like Pac-Man and Frogger. After all, the first video games were marketed to people my parents' age -- mid 50's now.

But they quit playing when games became complicated. I suppose a large part of that is the mid-80s video game crash. What seemed like a fad to them had passed. For a few years, truly new games only came out for the home computers. Realm of the hard core gamer -- Dungeons & Dragons and war/board game geeks. At least that's the perspective I had coming into middle school as a D&D/computer geek.

Then the NES hit the scene and "arcade-style" simplicity was back. But the older crowd never really came back from what I could tell.

I hope you don't think that the 50-60 crowd are "dying off." Those folks are just now considering retirement -- when they'll have lots of potential leisure time to spend on video games if they find something that appeals to them.

Modern gamepad ontrollers ARE weird to folks who haven't really played video games since the one-button joystick and paddle controller were king. Breakout's gonna be a no-brainer on the Revolution.

Also don't forget a large number of Japanese folks are getting on in years. Hell, Shigeru Miyamoto himself is 53. Not that 53 is old, which is the point I'm trying to make, eventually.

Re:Controller Intimidation Factor

[MadMoses]

Of course the Revolution controller is smaller than most remotes for what should be obvious reasons

Has your obvious reason anything to do with the included rumble pak feature?

Re:Controller Intimidation Factor

[radish]

Look at all the "musicians" who have embraced "mash-up" crap as an alternative to learning a real instrument. Are they all "retarded monkeys"? OK, they are,

I agreed with the rest of your post, but this deserves a hearty "FUCK YOU". I don't judge the music you create (written any good concertos lately?) so don't judge what I do.

Re:Controller Intimidation Factor

[cableshaft]

Since you seem to know what the hell he's talking about, care to explain what "mash-up" crap means? I want to know if I should be offended and burn his house down to the ground and kill his first-born son or not.

Re:Controller Intimidation Factor

[Anonymous Coward]

Mash-up, is where the vocals from one track are inserted into another track. Usually from totally different genres/artists.

It scratches an itch, a big itch

[rAiNsT0rm]

The Revolution is being looked at and covered as if it is a direct competitor to the 360 and PS3, it isn't. In the battle for dominance Sony and MS have ceased innovation and lost focus on the huge market for videogames. To crush the other they need to focus on a narrow market, and it has narrowed considerably with the 360 and PS3. This is a bad move, no matter who you are a fan of.

Notice the stories just today on the massive numbers of casual gamers and the demand for casual games? This is no fluke. This is the true gaming market. I know for us hardcore gamers it is difficult to see that the world does not revolve around us, but it does not. This market is booming, yet has no real major companies targeting them. In comes Nintendo. If you need 27 buttons and 3 analog sticks to feel "right" playing a game, then the Revolution is not for you... and it also isn't targeted toward you. *Gasp* a gaming company doesn't care about you? but your a "gamer" you wait in lines for a new release, you have every issue of CGW/EGM/whatever hardcore gaming mag, etc. Yep, you are not the target. Hard pill to swallow, and the cause of most of the ire.

I use the story quite often, but it is the perfect illustration of this. Last year one game/system outsold ALL videogame sales for the entire Christmas season... The small "retro" controllers that contain 6-12 games built in that hook up to a TV. They outsold ALL sales for the entire game industry! That is no small number, and those games don't feature eye-bleed graphics or complex strategy or gameplay.

People are clamoring for simple, fun, fresh, enjoyable experiences. Nintendo is looking to provide exactly that, while at the same time wooing back a lot of smalled developers and expanding their content to reach even the hardcore gamer. Since they are in no direct competition it affords them the freedom to make their own path and even innovate, fail, and try again all while still being successful overall. This is a position Sony and MS would kill for, so instead of looking at things though the normal gamer tunnelvision... step back and look at the big picture.

Re:It scratches an itch, a big itch

[Anonymous Coward]

I use the story quite often, but it is the perfect illustration of this. Last year one game/system outsold ALL videogame sales for the entire Christmas season... The small "retro" controllers that contain 6-12 games built in that hook up to a TV. They outsold ALL sales for the entire game industry! That is no small number, and those games don't feature eye-bleed graphics or complex strategy or gameplay.

I use this comment quite often, but that is quite simply complete bullshit. Next you'll be misquoting on how the videogame market is worth more than the movie industry.

Think about it. They sell for £15 or so over here, so one PS2 game = 2.5 of those games. One Xbox = 6 of them. One GBA = 4 of them. And you're telling me that a fuckload of consoles and games was outsold by a plug-in TV game?

"Step back and look at the big picture" before just reeling off "facts".

Re:It scratches an itch, a big itch

[soniCron88]

Which is more important in this argument:

They made more money with the plugin-games? (Which is untrue and proves nothing than who can piss farther.)

or...

The plugin-games made it into more homes? (Which is true and proves the market penetration for the plugin-games is greater.)

I'd say having one plugin-game in every 3 homes is far better than having one console in every 15 homes, wouldn't you?

Re:It scratches an itch, a big itch

[Xarius]

The small "retro" controllers that contain 6-12 games built in that hook up to a TV.

I don't suppose the fact that these cost about a tenner, as opposed to a few hundred quid, had anything to do with it?

Re:It scratches an itch, a big itch

[rAiNsT0rm]

No, actually it has a LOT to do with it... and thanks for further illustrating my point. The Revolution aims to "cost a tenner" compared to $5-600 of the competition, again hitting the widest cross-section of gamer.

And for the record most of those units sold for $24.99-$39.99 in the States... about the same as the cost of a new console title.

Re:It scratches an itch, a big itch

[|/|/|||]

If you need 27 buttons and 3 analog sticks to feel "right" playing a game, then the Revolution is not for you... and it also isn't targeted toward you.

Well, I agree with most of what you said, except for the quote above. Maybe I'm wrong, since almost all of the discussion that I've seen disagrees with my opinion, but this controller looks like a "hardcore" gamer's dream come true. Seriously, compare it to a dual shock, for example. The dual shock has 2 analog sticks, a d-pad, and 10 buttons (i'm not counting start). In the standard, out of the box config, the rev controller has 1 analog stick, 6 buttons (counting the 2 on the nunchuck, but not counting start, select, home), a d-pad, and the new position/orientation functionality.

First observation is that it has less buttons. Does it make a difference? I don't know - most ps2 games don't use all of the buttons on the controller. Nintendo could add more buttons before release, and you could certainly have a "shell" or a nunchuck with more buttons. Assuming that they don't do those things, dock them a point for number of buttons. Dock them another one because the small a and b buttons don't look very accessable when holding the controller vertically. They might only be usable when in certain "modes" - like you jump in a vehicle and turn the controller on its side to use as a steering wheel.

Now the big difference - 2nd analog stick vs. position/orientation. Will it work? I say yes. In fact, I think it will blow existing control setups out of the water completely. There's a lot of speculation about new kinds of games that you could play with the controller, but it looks like the perfect controller for existing games - especially the FPS. I think a lot of people are hesitant to try something new, but this thing could revolutionize the console FPS. If you have a hard time picturing it, here's my imagination of how it would work:

1. Analog stick is WASD, basically your move forward/back/left/right/diagonal. Just like WASD on a keyboard/mouse setup, only analog.
2. You use the revolution controller to freelook, but it works differently from a mouse. Assume you have a crosshair on the screen. There's a region that takes up most of the center of the screen where pointing the controller moves the crosshair without moving your view. Your character's hand moves to point to the target, but the torso does not rotate.
3. When you point outside of that region (including completely off of the screen), your view rotates at a rate proportional to how far from the center you're pointing. The crosshair, however, never moves outside of the center region. In other words, you can still shoot at things on the screen while your view is rotating. This allows you to immediately point and shoot at anything on the screen, and also to circle strafe, which is an absolute requirement for the modern FPS.
4. The best part, though, and the huge advantage over the dual shock, is when using melee weapons. Hold down the melee button (say A, maybe - B is obviously the Fire button) and your controller is your melee weapon. You go from a 1 button control that makes your character take a swing, to a piece of plastic in your hand that you can whack somebody with!

I don't know if you can see it, but I can picture kicking some major ass with that setup... it's all in my imagination, though, so if you see any flaws in the setup then point them out. As you can tell I'm pretty stoked about the controller, but I'm not a fanboy that can't discuss the tradeoffs. It certainly has room to grow, but that just makes it that much more exciting - think of what this kind of controller could do in a generation or two!

Re:It scratches an itch, a big itch

[rAiNsT0rm]

I respect your opinion, but you are just a bit off with your analysis. The small "A" and "B" buttons are only used when the controller is rotated and held like a NES pad, otherwise it is the large "A" button and the trigger only. So you have two buttons and a d-pad only. With the nunchuk attachment it is only 4 buttons and even then it is actually meant to be two buttons and the "remote" for aiming/etc. So again, you would be using the analog as the movement and the triggers on it for the buttons (2) while using the "remote" as a camera/mouse look device. Basically from all the demo's it is to be used in a manner that never utilizes more than 2 buttons and one directional pad. Or two remotes to be used as motion sensing as in the drum stick example.

Overall this design is very compact and simple. while there are a few buttons they are only used in the most natural manner in each configuration and generally only 2 at a time. You will still be able to hook a GC controller in and most likely they will offer a shell-type controller as well but it will not mimic the GC controller as IGN has guessed.

Re:It scratches an itch, a big itch

[|/|/|||]

Yeah I was counting the nunchuck buttons in my 4 button count. The small a and b buttons can't be very accessible when the controller is held vertically.

I agree with your original post, that this controller will be excellent for the casual gamer, and that you can create all kinds of really fun games that use only the main controller held in one hand.

The point that I was trying to make is that the setup shouldn't be discounted for more complex games. With the analog stick addon, I really do think you could have an exceptional FPS control setup. I also think that there is a ton of room for future improvement. You could add some more buttons to the main controller as necessary. Better yet, you could add orientation sensitivity to the secondary controller (basically a second controller with an analog stick). This would allow you to move your off hand controller (which also has your analog movement control) to position your shield or aim/fire a second weapon. Very promising, in my opinion.

I'm just speculating for fun here, but what I'm concerned about is that everybody is going to get stuck in the old-school controller mentality and try to design everything around a shell, which defeats the purpose of the new controller. I can't really judge it until I've tried it, but the idea of a radically new control standard has me pretty excited. What separates a gimmick from a revolution is software support -- now if only Nintendo would hand out dev kits to hobbyists...

Re:It scratches an itch, a big itch

[SFBwian]

For the record, in the States, most new games cost $39.99-$49.99, and the greatest hits category usually ends up at $19.99 after a while.

I'm not sure about the costs of handheld console titles, but I'm pretty sure they run around $40 for the GBA and drop to $30 semi-frequently.

Still, I'm agreed about the comparative cost of the Revolution. The Gamecube has consistenly been the lowest-cost main console out there, usually by $50 or more.

Re:It scratches an itch, a big itch

[Tzarius]

Totally. If Nintendo gets the tech right the first time (accuracy, sensitivity, smoothness) then we can expect some big changes in the gaming industry.

What really excites me though, is the possibility of wielding two pointers at once, one in each hand. Suddenly you have twice the control - you could play a boxing game in first person, control skis independently, play virtual drums, maybe even manipulate puppet strings. (hmmm... if they're fairly durable, you could tie them to your legs and play DDR without a mat...)
It's no suprise Nintendo wanted to wait until Sony and MS made their specs public - this is the major advantage they have over the other consoles.

Re:It scratches an itch, a big itch

[Anonymous Coward]

Around here the most you'll usually pay for a GBA game in a regular cart (WarioWare: Twisted notwithstanding) is $35 US, and only for the highest demand games. Most of the games cost either $25 or $30, and only a handful don't settle at $20 or lower. Used carts are sold at most game stores (not big box stores like Frys) and average around $15. (Game stores LOVE used GBA carts. They don't take up much shelf space, you buy your inventory off your customers for scratch, and all the money goes straight to the store.)

But does it sound like a whisper?

[Sunrun]

Totally off-topic, but the title is NOT a Beatles lyric.

The actual lyric is "You say you want a revolution".

The article title is in fact closer to a lyric by Tracy Chapman:
"They're talkin' bout a revolution / It sounds like a whisper"

The question of which song best embodies the aesthetics paradigm (huh?) of Nintendo's new controller interface is left as a frivolous excercise for the reader.

The Best Reason for this Controller

[Prien715]

Is that it'll differentiate the console enough from the competitiion. Let's say I develop a game for the revolution which uses the new controller. Not only will it give me new freedom to design the game from an interface standpoint, but it'll also make it virtually impossible to port to any other console without a redesign of the game itself.

So while I'll be able to buy GTA4 for either X-Box 360 or PS3, Metroid Prime 3 will not only be a Nintendo exclusive, but other games by 3rd party developers will become de-facto exclusives since porting the control scheme will be so difficult.

Basically, Nintendo is making itself a unique product so that it's not so much competing as becoming a new good in the market.

Two Words

[mothlos]

Law

Suit

All these people miss the big drawback of this controller. For it to work you have to swing around your fist clenched around a dense piece of plastic and battery. Susie is going to knock Jimmy's clock off and big N will have to go to the courthouse.

Other than that, good show, these guys spell out exactly why I'm buying one; particularly if the price point is below $200.

Re:Two Words

[vertinox]

Susie is going to knock Jimmy's clock off and big N will have to go to the courthouse.

I take it you've never played NES controller numchucks with your friends when you were growing up either? Well damn. I could have been rich since 1988.

Re:Two Words

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you saying this is a patent infringement because it is like a remote or wireless or just because it is a controller that is made of plastic and has a battery?

The only thing I can think of that might infringe on a patent is the gyroscope-type feature which Gyration might hold a patent for.

I'd like to think Nintendo is smarter than creating a product that their company is greatly dependent upon only to see it infringe on a patent, but then again Apple did it with the Ipod, twice.

Re:Two Words

[JedaFlain]

If a toy company can sell a He-Man sword or a Ninja Turtle sai without getting sued, I highly doubt Nintendo is going to get sued over a kid getting clocked in the head by a controller.

Re:Two Words

[Digital_Quartz]

Actually, lawsuit is just one word.

Unless, perhaps, you were refering to some sort of suit, made of law. Like a "law jacket" and some "law pants".

Re:Two Words

[Anonymous Coward]

What would you wear under yout law pants? Legal briefs?

Re:Two Words

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually... Ummm...

http://www.gyration.com/intl/uk/pr-nintendo_uk.htm

Re:Two Words

[idonthack]

Damn my modpointlessness.
---
The only thing I hate more than a hypocrite is a person who hates hypocrites.
Generated by SlashdotRndSig via GreaseMonkey

Re:Two Words

[Anonymous Coward]

GTFO, noob!

To confirm you're not a script,
please type the word in this image: costumes

jump!

[Anonymous Coward]

Chris Cross
Game Design Director, EA LA

he's gonna make you JUMP! JUMP!

Re:jump!

[Digital Vomit]

Chris Cross Game Design Director, EA LA he's gonna make you JUMP! JUMP!

I started laughing because this was funny, but then I stopped when I realized how sad it was that I actually know what you are talking about.

Re:jump!

[earthbound kid]

I started laughing because this was funny, but then I stopped when I realized how sad it was that I actually know what you are talking about.

Don't be wigety-wigety-wigety-whack!

We Are Down To A Two Console Race

[Anonymous Coward]

You can see it all over the Net.

Which console are you buying?

PS3 and Revolution!

The realtime Metal Gear Solid 4 demo on the PS3 Cell devkit rocked the show and the Nintendo controller has the dev community abuz with ideas for games.

I've never seen a game demo generate this much excitment.

And I've never seen a controler unveiling do the same.

I don't know what Microsoft is going to do. They've become pretty much irrelevant to the console market.

Re:We Are Down To A Two Console Race

[ajservo]

I don't know what Microsoft is going to do.

Same thing they did for this generation. Buy their way into consumers with a blitzload of marketing.

As long as MS has cash in the coffers, they'll spend money on marketing. It doesn't matter to them if you only buy the one game or so on the console, just get one...

seriously, for anyone out there who thinks that MS has this all locked up is sniffing glue.

Xbox Live is full of foul-mouthed teenagers who swiped mom's CC#.

Ports are ports. There's no better experience on either console. Graphics are a minor consideration in the overall presentation.

And, in my opinion, the biggest strike MS has against them is the limited Japanese developer support. They don't need to "win" japan to get street cred in the console. They need some solid Japanese games. I might have taken more to the Xbox if there had been a Rez, Katamari Damacy, Ico style game. Or for pete's sake. Even a decent Japanese RPG. Fable wasn't the end all be all of RPG's by any stretch. It was an innovative concept that was beaten to the market by Knights of the Old Republic.

If MS seriously wants to get involved in the console race, they need to start working on some hardware for arcade games in Japan. If MS can break in the Arcade market there, it could drive developers to work a bit more with them for ports.

Re:We Are Down To A Two Console Race

[Chazmyrr]

Why do you believe a successful console requires Japanese games? The vast majority of consoles are not sold in Japan. Is it that you feel that the Japanese are the only developers creating good games? Or maybe it's that western developers are still more focused on the PC than consoles? In either case, it would probably be a lot easier for Microsoft to encourage western developers to produce more/better console games than to overcome the built in prejudice the Japanese have towards foreign companies.

Re:We Are Down To A Two Console Race

[ajservo]

Japanese games are the games that got this industry to where it is today.

And you'd be pretty dead on about the Japanese creating good games.

Most of the American games that claim to be classics are retreads of the same genres and ideas. Madden. What's been done with madden? It's football. Great, we got it. Updated rosters, new skins/graphics, and new plays aren't worth the $50 purchase annually to me.

I would think that american developers are just as interested in consoles as they are PCs. I have no problem with the modern PC market. I think the innovation and products produced in the PC market are what's driving it on annually. The ratio of sequels produced out of the PC market pales in comparison with the crap pumped out onto American consoles. I need another Tony Hawk like I need a bullet in the head.

Your complaint is that the Japanese are prejudiced in game/console purchases to their own kind. Half Life, Harry Potter, Doom, and Quake are all on their shelves like they are here. They sell there like they do here. The difference is that they get by on the one version. They look more for unique experiences than retreads. There's probably a reason why each Final Fantasy game is set in a completely different world with different characters.

Last comment

[MindStalker]

Wow the last guy was a moron. He stated
"However, the concern with something new like this is that it will appeal mainly to an enthusiast crowd and alienate the mass market who can be very reluctant to change their comfortable game playing habits."

Maybe I'm wrong here, but from what I've seen the mass market dislikes the complicated controller of the newest generation. This guy seems to have it all backwards.

Re:Last comment

[NanoGator]

"Maybe I'm wrong here, but from what I've seen the mass market dislikes the complicated controller of the newest generation. This guy seems to have it all backwards."

Heh. I saw it from a different perspective. Right now, FPS's are the current fad in gaming. This controller is a pleasant step up from Sony and Microsoft's controllers. If anything, Nintendo's catering to the biggest market. Anybody who has played San Andreas knows how painfully limiting modern controllers are.

Re:Last comment

[oGMo]

Maybe I'm wrong here, but from what I've seen the mass market dislikes the complicated controller of the newest generation.

I don't know what gives you this idea. 100 million PS2s sold? PS1s? GBAs? SNESs? All of these have basically the same controller layout, give or take a couple face buttons or shoulder buttons.

Nintendo seems to be under the mistaken impression that videogames are still new and unfamiliar to most folks, and that somehow the mass market needs introduced to them. The mass market already knows and plays them. The Revolution controller will do a lot of things, but bring games to the mainstream isn't one of them. Sony did that already with the PS1.

Re:Last comment

[MindStalker]

Only 36 of those 100 million are in the US. So for an US population of 300 million thats 10%. Very high numbers, but I'd be willing to bet you that the majority are technically inclined and younger than 30. I'm not saying that older individuals don't play games. But speaking as a non enthusiast (only system I've owned in my life was an N64 and don't have that any more) trying to play new top quality games on friends systems is tough at best with the over complicated controls. While nintendos controller may or may not live up to the hype, its definatly designed for the non enthusiast/mass market crowd.

Re:Last comment

[bleaknik]

Sure, there's 100 millionish PS2s. How many are still functional, though? I know at least 7 PS2s that have been decommissioned because of broken optical drives.

A console for the masses

[RyoShin]

It's easy to tell that the most criticism against the Revolution is (and will continue to be) the controller- no longer the lack of Hard Drive, not supporting HDTV, but "Is that a fucking remote?"

A lot of people fail to see the big draw that a remote will have for the common plebian (read: non-gamer.) On the one hand, you have this massive controller, with 8 buttons, two joysticks, and more. Even I, a casual gamer, thought the Gamecube games would be hard to control with so many buttons and knobs (I was thankfully proven wrong.)

Using this remote, Nintendo will give people a reason to glance twice. A remote control is a familiar object- walk up to any person on the street, and there's a good chance they'll have used a remote. Since it will be a common object, with a different layout, they'll be whimsical. Initially, they'll pick it up and try to use the D-pad to play something. But as soon as they get angry and shake the controller, they'll understand just how interesting this new device is. (Obviously, there will be motion instructions by the demo, but, having worked in an electronics store, I can tell you that not everyone reads the instructions.)

It will be more less intimidating for new users to pick up, while giving us regular gamers a whole new (and quite innovative) way to plays games. Nintendo has it right this time.

The biggest gripe that I've heard from all sides is how it will play other games, or porting games to it (due to having to retool the interface to work with the NRV.) It's already been pointed out in a previous post, but this needs to be mentioned again: the controller will have a shell that will work like a "regular controller". (Note that the mockup on the bottom of that page is NOT THE OFFICIAL MOCKUP, but it gets the idea across.)

Not only will this remove the need for the Gamecube controllers for backwards compatibility (though there are GCN ports on the system,) but it will allow developers to port the games without having to do a lot of modifications, if they are that lazy.

Re:A console for the masses

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of people fail to see the big draw that a remote will have for the common plebian (read: non-gamer.)

Plebeian.

How common of you noble patrician folks to not concern yourself with the details of lives lesser than yours.

Disc compatibility?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry to be off topic but if the Revolution is backward compatible with the cube and will use standard size DVDs how do you load the cube's mini disc in the slot loader?

Oh, and yes this controller makes me want this system far more than before...

Re:Disc compatibility?

[typobox43]

The slot loader is supposed to have some "magic" ability to be able to accept both sizes. I have no idea how it's going to work, but I'd love to see it in action.

Re:Disc compatibility?

[fwitness]

I'm not an engineer but just imagine a "Y" grip in the center (inside) of the slot, that is initially closed to look like an straight beam. The Y has a slight tension that keeps it closed. When you insert a cube disc, you use enough force to spread it open (the disc is now held in the top of the Y) and the machine retracts the disc and loads. If you use a normal DVD disc, the Y simply opens more. When the disc is removed, the tension spring pushes it shut to it's normal beam position.

From its shape and means of use

[Shivetya]

it will lend itself well to anyone wanting to pass of pornographic games on this console, provided of course they get past nintendo. Even if they don't the idea will probably end up elsewhere for just that purpose.

Amen - My wife likes to play too.

[xplenumx]

I couldn't agree more - I truly wish that more companies out there would focus on the casual gamer. I absolutely love my Xbox, however my wife finds all the games to be too complicated, becomes frustrated within a few minutes of playing them, and never touches them again. It's a shame too since she adored the original NES and loves watching the Xbox games.

Just over a month ago we picked up a copy of Super Monkey Ball Deluxe (SMBD) and have fallen in love with the mini-racing game (think Mario Kart, but you're a monkey in a ball). The game is wonderful! My wife and I can play together (or more accurately, against each other), the controls are very simple to learn, and we can play in short bursts. We've played SMBD every night since we got it, and we're still having a blast.

So here's the problem, we can't find any other games like it - racing games are too focused on photo-realism and don't support the under-dog (it sucks if you're in second place and have to wait for the person in first to make a mistake - missiles and bombs make the game much more interesting for everyone involved), FPSs tend to have a high learning curve and shooting people tends to turn off potential gamers, and fighting games tend to go overboard on the gore and have an extremely high learning curve. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm seriously considering putting my Xbox in the closet and replacing it with a Game Cube (and Revolution when it comes out). I want to play games with my wife. My wife wants to play games with me. I want to have people over and be able to play games with them, even if they've never touched a console before. Seems to me, Nintendo is the only company that gets this.

Re:Amen - My wife likes to play too.

[rAiNsT0rm]

Couldn't agree more. I spent over 4 years covering Sony PS2 titles, and could never play one game with my girlfriend that she would enjoy (except for Space Channel 5, and Katamari Damacy) But she owned a NES and loves games. Even Katamari Damacy was a bit tough for her at times. So I gathered up a bunch of crap Ps2 titles went to Gamestop and got a GC, Mario Party 5, Puyo Pop Fever, and Donkey Konga 1&2... we have a blast. Mario Party 5 is great for a gamer/non-gamer match-up. Super Monkey Ball also. I've even come home to find she had been playing Puyo Pop on her own. The controller is her biggest problem though with the GC, she hates the analog stick and uses the D-pad when possible. She is not alone, nor unique in this respect and the Revolution is custom tailored for her and millions of others just like her.

Go for the GC and some non-gamer games and you'll have much more fun than a solo run through any 1-player game. I find myself dying to play the GC when I get home now, where my PS2 has had a layer of dust build up since Katamari Damacy lost it's luster with me.

Re:Amen - My wife likes to play too.

[pnice]

"Up, Down, Left, Right, Chu, Chu, Chu!"

Re:Amen - My wife likes to play too.

[rAiNsT0rm]

hahaha, guess you were "lucky" enough to have a significant other who enjoyed that gem of a title too. :)

Just reading that was like chewing on tinfoil with fillings. Thanks a heap!

Re:Amen - My wife likes to play too.

[Chazmyrr]

Also try Zelda: 4 Swords Adventure and Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles for the cube. Both have multiplayer built in. The downside is you need a GBA for each player. The only reason I got a GBA was to play those with my girlfriend.

I have to keep the PS2 around though. She loves DDR with the dance pad controllers.

Re:Amen - My wife likes to play too.

[Flying Spaghetti Mon]

[my wife and me] We've played SMBD every night since we got it, and we're still having a blast.

At first, I read that as BDSM...

Re:Amen - My wife likes to play too.

[Agilus]

My wife and I are on our second play-through of Tales of Symphonia for the Gamecube. It's a fun RPG with cooperative realtime combat, simple controls, and lots of replayability (storyline branches, hidden subplots, different character upgrade paths, lots of hidden items, etc.) You should be able to get it for $20 now, and it's definitely worth it. We easily have put in over 100 hours of play time in the 6 months that we've owned it.

The only downsides I see are that the voice acting is sometimes a little over the top, and the story is pretty convoluted (but interesting). I remember thinking the first time though, "So, are they going to tie it all up at the end and make everything make sense, or are they just kind of making it up as they go along? It turns out that the story is indeed consistent. The second time through I can see a lot of the foreshadowing, and the double meanings of certain things some of the characters say. It's one of the things that makes it worth playing more than once.

Re:Amen - My wife likes to play too.

[idonthack]

Zelda: 4 Swords Adventure

"Any game where I can beat my brother unconcious with a chicken and not get in trouble is a great game in my book."
---
It's not a lie. It's the truth with lossy compression.
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Re:Amen - My wife likes to play too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget Mario Power Tennis. My wife loves that game! The controls are so easy and intuitive and it's a blast with 4 people. Remember to disable those gimmicky power moves though.

Lightpen, anyone?

[Stormwatch]

I hope Nintendo got this right, but there's something that worries me: using this controller may be like using a lightpen. Remember those? More intuitive than a mouse, but very tiresome if you use it for too long...

Re:Lightpen, anyone?

[silverkniveshotmail.]

Circumcision must be outlawed?
I'm not going to argue you about how fucking painful and horrible it seems, however I certainly wouldn't want to be the guy with the weird looking penis. Here in the states the rate of circumcision is pretty fucking high, and most girls here have not seen an uncircumcised penis.

Re:Lightpen, anyone?

[mink]

Please send them over to me so they can get acquainted.

I don't think it should be outlawed because it is part of some peoples religion. It should IMO not be done to children. As an adult you can make that kind of decision about body modification (or mutilation depending on your view) with proper information. On the bright side if someone wants foreskin back there is a safe and effective (slightly uncomfortable) way to regain what has been lost, but it's not the same bit of skin that you were born with.

People need to just wash themselves and be clean (can't have too much of that IMO).

Re:THINK TWICE BEFORE MODERATING PARENT UP

[rAiNsT0rm]

I really shouldn't feed the troll, but I'm not the one who sounds ignorant here. I have worked on texture design for Atlus as well as playtesting. Playtesting for Capcom... they have a little series called Resident Evil you may have heard of. Game reviews, PS2 titles, for Stuff/Maxim Magazines as well as IGN, Rotten Tomatoes, and a number of other freelance projects. I also worked as a market analyst in the videogame industry covering sales and rental charts for the U.S., Japan, and the UK. I have coded for the SNES, and owned a Net Yaroze which I've done demo/Homebrew stuff on.

I was a Sony fanboy you could say, as my work required all of my attention to be focused on Sony only products. I am no longer "smitten" and the honeymoon is long over. Ask any texture artist if it is harder to work on a title like World of Warcraft ("simple" graphics) or a more realistic title. You will soon realize who the ignorant party is here.

Re:THINK TWICE BEFORE MODERATING PARENT UP

[NanoGator]

"And in response to your child post, no, it's NOT as simple as plastering a photographic texture to create "realistic" graphics."

Um, yeah it is. Sometimes you do a little fiddling in Photoshop if the source image wasn't perfectly suited to it. It's certainly a lot quicker than trying to conjure up something stylized and making it from scratch.

Sideways orientation?

[ThePepe]

Has anybody noticed that the thickness of the controller changes from top to bottom (when held in 'remote control' fashion)? Obviously this is for the battery compartment, but wont that make it a little strange to hold in a sideways orientation? Your left hand will grab a thin section while the right will grip a section substantially thicker and heavier. Imagine how that would have felt on the original NES controller.

Where this controller should evolve to

[NeMon'ess]

Power gloves. Yeah Nintendo did it in 86, but this is with better tech. Objects like a gun or golf club should become props. Instead of putting the Revolution wand into a gun sleeve and hitting a button to reload, imagine making the motion of reloading with a prop while wearing motion sensitive gloves. In a RPG, actully reach down and pretend to grasp an object to pick it up and examine it. Imagine the porn!

Most importantly, if the gloves and external sensors monitor the motion, we could have Mechwarrior-style control layouts made of inexpensive plastic. The panel wouldn't have to be wired up with circuit boards and actual switches, just spring-loaded dumb buttons.

Re:Where this controller should evolve to

[Anonymous Coward]

The Power Glove was neither created nor sold by Nintendo.

the old standby

[kevin.fowler]

As long as you can let go of the controller to cheat in long jump on the new version of Track and Field... sign me up. I'm all for having a different style of controller. All the rest of the controllers are the same species... held the same way. $10 says they release a special conventional controller anyway. And sadly this controller will cost more than $10. Much like this http://www.8bitjoystick.com/archives/jake_review_h ori_gameboy_player_gamepad_for_gamecube.php

Let's see some retro gaming, too

[Digital Vomit]

This new controller would be great for some old arcade classics like Tempest and Arkanoid.

A bit full of himself?

[stylee]

Lorne Lanning
President/Creative Director, Oddworld Inhabitants
An interesting innovation for the "small handed" segment of the market. Hopefully a larger version will be available for the larger hand endowed audience that is likely to be more carpal tunnel prone.

I know he was getting at ergonomics, but, when you start to read this quote next to this picture it just sounds creepy. Something tells me this guy drives a H2.

"Sure, this is nice for guys with small units, but what about us guys with huge trouser snakes?"

Color

[ScaryFroMan]

I'm a bit disappointed that all I've seen is the bright white apple-ish look. I really liked the black rev/blue light mock-up that was shown at e3. I'm sure that they'll sell multiple colors, but I'd like to see the black one just to be sure.

Re:Color

[cornface]

Well, in addition to the picture of the white, gray, red, and green controllers that is on every article about the Revolution written since the announcement, there is one that shows a black controller.

Rest easy!

Gyration

[MendicantMonkey]

I'm surprised I haven't seen more comparison to these devices.

Did Nintendo license the tech from the same company, I wonder?

Re:Gyration

[cornface]

Word count of your post: 21.

Word count of Google search needed to find out that Nintendo invested heavily in their company back in 2001: 4.

Re:Gyration

[NattyBucho]

It was posted earlier in the thread, but anyway: http://www.gyration.com/intl/uk/pr-nintendo_uk.htm

Re:Gyration

[MendicantMonkey]

Forgive me! Since you had to be browsing at Score:1 to see my post in a gaming console thread on Slashdot, I know your time must be precious.

I'm so sorry you had to count all the words in my post, too. You must be exhausted!

Thankfully you're here to protect innocent Slashdotters from my laziness and ignorance. The poor souls might have thought I was more interested in a possible discussion than a succinct answer. Good thing you were here to stop that from happening.

Re:Gyration

[Frodo Crockett]

Interesting. Looks like it would be easy to use, since this kind of motion is second nature to most /.ers.

Re:Gyration

[MendicantMonkey]

Good point. Also notice that the Gyration mouse and the Revolution controller appear to be vertically symmetrical, so you can switch hands when you get tired. From playing games, naturally.

If it were Sony and not Nintendo, I'd say we should start taking bets on when the similarity of that motion is more than coincidence. Then one would have to learn to make the motion with both arms at once to get the "full experience." Someone from the adult film industry might be the next "Wizard" !!!

Re:Gyration

[cornface]

Forgive me! Since you had to be browsing at Score:1 to see my post in a gaming console thread on Slashdot, I know your time must be precious.

-1. I browse at -1. My time is precious and tender, like a tiny kitten.

I'm so sorry you had to count all the words in my post, too. You must be exhausted!

You have no idea.

Thankfully you're here to protect innocent Slashdotters from my laziness and ignorance. The poor souls might have thought I was more interested in a possible discussion than a succinct answer. Good thing you were here to stop that from happening.

I know!

At least you're man enough to admit it.

Re:THINK TWICE BEFORE MODERATING PARENT UP

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure why you feel the need to bring up your job as an analyst, or worse, playtester! HAH! That HARDLY means you have any more insight to the way things work than your parent poster!

I'm with him: You're ignorant and completely missing the point of the blog post in the first place. Textures aside, development of a Nintendo title is almost always cheaper than that of a realistic game. I should know, I've worked on plenty.

When was the last time you dabbled up some textures for a realistic game? For a cartoony one? What? Back in the PSX days?

Incorrect

[idonthack]

And for the record most of those [10-games-in-1] units sold for $24.99-$39.99 in the States... about the same as the cost of a new console title.

No, the console games are twice that much. ($50-$60) Portable game titles (GBA, DS, PSP) are around the price you mention.
---
"Man, when the day comes, count me in with the robot smashers." - Anonymous Coward
Generated by SlashdotRndSig via GreaseMonkey

It's a lightsaber.

[Anonymous Coward]

More or less. Nintendo has already won this round of the console wars: every Star Wars fan will buy this system, because when the Star Wars game that lets you fight with lightsabers comes out for the Revolution, our living rooms are all going to look like this: this guy

The Other Side of the Sword

[idonthack]

It also works the other way, though.

Nintendo might not get many 3rd-party games (again) because the interface is different.

Game devs will put out a game for the other two systems, and totally ignore the Revo because their game just doesn't work with its style of control.
---
The only thing I hate more than a hypocrite is a person who hates hypocrites.
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Or not.

[idonthack]

Quoting 1-Up's article:

[The controller] was incredibly responsive to even slight wrist movements-I barely had to move my hand at all.

If they whack someone, it's their own damn fault :)
---
"Man, when the day comes, count me in with the robot smashers." - Anonymous Coward
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Why does everything i read about the revolution

[Anonymous Coward]

The first thing any previewer says about the nintendo controller is, "Well it'd be great for fishing"
Thats great.
Haven't played a fishing game since dreamcast.
and since when is fishing fun anyways?

(ok get bass was fun with the special controller)

Media Comments on the Controller

[saphint]

It may be nice that the industry seems to be responding highly of the new controller. But its a long way off from putting money on the table and seeing what comes out. It is probably also one of the many reasons why Nintendo kept the consoles graphical power down so that it would be (possibly far) less expensive to create a game for the Revolution then for the PS3 or the Xbox 360. Hopefully developers are willing (or atleast a chance) to have ago.

Re:Media Comments on the Controller

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, from everything I've heard and read Nintendo says it will be 2-3 times more powerful than a gamecube, which is already 2-3 times more powerful than a PS2. The PS3, according to most official benchmarks so far, is only about 2-3 times more powerful than the PS2 as well. Even with some variance, the Revolution will be able to compete graphically with ease.

Keep in mind that Gamecube games EASILY look as good as XBox games, even though the 'cube sports less than a third of the RAM of an XBox.

I wouldn't be too worried about the graphics ;) However, skimping on HD support will DEFINITELY make the games less expensive to create, so your point still stands, just with a different justification.

Mod parent up

[Digital_Quartz]

LOL.

DS Controller anyone ?

[BloodAngel_Au]

My first thought when I seen that controller was 'hold on, WiFi ? guess what else does WiFi ? DS Controller anyone ?"

Re:DS Controller anyone ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think they've said before that the DS will be compatible as a controller for the Revolution. Seeing as it doesn't have the same capabilities as this gyroscopic controller, you're probably more likely to see it functioning as a controller the same way the GBA can be used as a controller for the Cube. It won't be able to do everything - it can position, but can't give you pitch and yaw or forward and back data, although I suppose you could emulate one of those with the L&R buttons. It'll work in a pinch, though. And you'll be able to have DS + Revo games along the lines Crystal Chronicles - minus the annoying extra cords. If they're able to port the GBA connectivity of games like Animal Crossing and Crystal Chronicles to use a DS in GBA mode over the wifi, I will weep with joy.

My boyfriend points out that this controller design also means the Revolution will be able to emulate the DS the way the Game Cube can emulate the GBA. Hot stuff.

Re:Or so

[fwitness]

I actually agree with the parent. In America, nothing is your fault. That's why we have informative signs like "Do not immerse in water" on your television. And my personal favorite, on my last television "do not attempt to eat or consume."

Cuz you know, sometimes you just gotta grab a bite.

Oh get over yourself

[DoctaWatson]

He's not saying Nintendo uses crappy graphics or a limited art budget to cut costs of games- he's saying that as competing budgets within the same genre sprial upward, Nintendo does the sensible thing and moves on to make its mark with innovation. And he backs this up by showing that Nintendo's development costs are about half as much as Microsoft's.

You on the other hand, have no numbers, no analysis and no insight other than "Totally false." Things aren't just true because you say they are. He explains why innovation is cost-effective for Nintendo, so why don't you explain why it's not before you go shooting off your mouth.

Metroid Prime and Halo 2 had vastly different budgets. One game took the innovative road and made a new niche genre, and yet the other game had a much higher development cost despite "simply following suit and making a few improvements". See if you can guess which strategy was effective for Nintendo.

Oh, and you aren't a numbers or marketing insider just because you once wrote for Maxim.

Re:Oh get over yourself

[rAiNsT0rm]

What is your problem? Why do you select my posts (when you are already a Foe and Enemy) to keep whining about me? Obviously I hate you and would slit your throat if we met in real life, fuck off. You are a little whiny bitch who wants so badly to discredit me but you and I both know damn well what my credentials are. Want me to back my claims up with numbers, you got it asshole. And BTW, I will use quotes directly from the *source article* that show exactly the opposite of what you claim. Trying to disagree just to contradict me is just stupid. I seriously think you are jealous and you are acting like a kid. No matter if you want to admit it or not, my work in the industry is pretty extensive and my accomplishments are fairly impressive. I'm proud of my work, and it must be pretty good to have been in demand for 4 years... yes including Maxim and Stuff which I am similarly proud of.

Here's the quote: The cost of creating a genre king early in the genre life cycle is low. You can rely on things like simplified graphics and limited amounts of content. This is totally false, I need no numbers to back my claims this is simply wrong.

Also he claims this is part of "portfolio management" this person has no idea about what he is speaking. He is using big words and fancy terms to make himself seem intelligent and an authority. Notice how he *doesn't* have ONE NUMBER TO BACK HIS CLAIMS? Oh, but how quick you are to jump on me for not using exact numbers. Dickhead.

What happened here was you drank the kool aid and were drawn in by his fancy terms and it actually shows your *lack* of intelligence to be suckered in as others were. Take a look at the majority of replies to my statements about this column, they all concur my sentiments exactly. Know why? Because they are TRUE.

The numbers of development are 100 to 500 Million yen at the moment. The 360 and PS3 will push development costs to close to 1 billion yen. That is what game development costs. In American development it is about $822,000 for the PS2, GC, and PSP. $1.82 million for Xbox. Nintendo is consistently in the upper ranges of these numbers proving that it is not "cheaper" to produce more simplistic graphics or the first in a genre. Also Nintendo has been restructured from the ground up recently and is one of the most streamlined and profitable as a result. So if their costs are high, it is not due to bloat or laziness, it is the actual cost of development. Oh, and you now see you were wrong about me not being an analyst as well.

You're looking worse and worse, want me to continue? I can back every single claim up with fact, I can back my entire career up with fact. I can dispell an assclown like you with little difficulty all day long. You are out of your league, and you don't have a leg to stand on. So I would kindly respect that you stay out of my threads unless you would like me to continue to discredit you. Which isn't too hard.

Actually you miss the point

[DoctaWatson]

Your automobile manufacturer analogy is incorrect, because the second guy that comes along is going to have to do all the same work that Henry Ford did and add their new content, unless he works for Henry Ford. We'll say he doesn't.

Now if the consumers gobble up all this new content, the competitor has upped the ante for Ford. Ford can either spend more and more to implement even more content for his Model T, getting stuck in a content "arms race"- or he can leave his competitors behind with their expensive Model T knockoffs to start building Mustangs or Excursions.

This is what Nintendo does. It is not a criticism of Nintendo's graphics philosophy. It is common knowledge that art and "content" are the areas of game budgets that have seen the most growth over the last 10 years. Nintendo's business model opts for a different path that says: start strong, leave before competition can raise your development costs.

Re:Actually you miss the point

[rAiNsT0rm]

You are an idiot. You actually are now going to go back through a day old thread and threadcrap on it to make yourself feel better, eh? Nice.

And you are wrong. Coming up with the initial concept and bringing it to life is where the cost is, sure both have to invest in the same machinery but the second guy has a model to work from drastically reducing his workload and expense in the R&D dept. Most of game costs are in R&D, the example is the same and holds up quite well.

Re:THINK TWICE BEFORE MODERATING PARENT UP

[rAiNsT0rm]

Heh, it is quite funny how many people think they know all about game development and what goes into it. I think it is a losing battle trying to make people understand how easy it is to do realism.

My favorite example: Go paint an abstract painting... now go paint a *GOOD* abstract painting... yeah, hell of a lot easier to just paint a tree, isn't it?

Unless people have done it they will always think that detail is difficult, the real difficulty is working in a simplistic color palette and not having everything end up washed out.

Eh, I'm done trying to make all the "experts" around here understand the reality of the matter. Better luck to you NanoGator.

Hah

[DoctaWatson]

Yes, way to discredit me by starting your post with a personal threat.

-No one is arguing that Nintendo is or isn't streamlined or profitable. Don't think I'm bashing your new favorite company and react badly.

-Nintendo's development costs, by your own numbers, are less than half of Microsoft's. Where do you think MS is spending all that extra money? Well, even my basic knowledge about video game budgets tells me that the lion's share of that is going into art, sound, cinematics and all that other stuff we call "content".

-Does that mean Nintendo's content is sub-par? No. Nintendo starts out strong in a genre. No one says their graphics are simplistic- just that Nintendo picks up and moves on after competition within a genre would otherwise raise development costs.

Do you disagree? Tell me one genre where Nintendo remains and competes directly.

I pick on you because you wave your "credentials" around like you're some powerful insider, or some objective judge. In reality you're insignificant, easily biased, and rarely insightful. Did you actually say that disagreeing with you is stupid? I guess that makes you egotistical too.

Re:Hah

[rAiNsT0rm]

I'm giving you one last minute of my time and I am through with you.

A personal threat is not discrediting you in any way, it is an honest statement. In real life, if I had the chance I would kick your whiny ass up and down. You are simply the type of person I can't stand. And BTW I'm 6'3" and since you want to bring up credentials I was also Golden Glove ranked... not a fat slob whiny geek. So your pasty, pimply ass wouldn't stand a chance. Lucky thing, that internet anonimity.

You keep making attacks towards me simply because I HAVE worked quite closely with this industry for a LONG time. You may call this insignificant, easily biased, rarely insightful, whatever you want to... I ask, where is your proof? My posts are always modded insightful (notice that every post I make besides my rants on Zonk - another loser around here - are modded insightful, interesting, and quite highly). I worked as a game reviewer, I only worked for independent review sites and freelance projects which involved NO BIAS whatsoever. As a reviewer and playtester, objectivity is the #1 quality required, I wouldn't have got very far if your claims were true, now would I?

Oh, and my statement was: Trying to disagree just to contradict me is just stupid. And it is. To simply overlook the obvious flaws in that article just to try to discredit me is stupid. Read into that article whatever you want to, it is totally false and if you passed it by anyone in the industry they would laugh at it. Plain and simple. The person who wrote it has no clue to the true workings of the industry.

Because Microsoft games cost more to produce means nothing in terms of artwork. They are higher cost due to the programming effort required and the lack of a solid development environment. Working in a limited color palette and keeping things vivid and not washed out is the most difficult thing in the world. Much harder than realism. You wouldn't know though because you base your statements on thin-air and your limited understanding of the subject matter. Again, don't take my word for it ask anyone with experience here.

Again my example: Paint me an abstract painting, now paint me a *good* abstract painting... hell of a lot easier to just paint a tree isn't it?

I'm not even answering your tirade on my Nintendo fanboyism as you claim. It is quite clear that I am not. I also refuse to answer any more of your rhetoric and childishness. So long and thanks for all the fish.

I'm the one bringing up credentials?

[DoctaWatson]

Hardly.

-You're the one throwing your credentials around like anyone gives a damn. Frankly your background as a magazine video game reviewer doesn't automagically make you an industry insider or marketing analyst.

-Similarly, your self-described physical credentials are just as pointless for the discussion at hand, but I guess I'm the childish one.

-Show me where I called you a Nintendo fanboy in this thread.

-Nintendo's art isn't abstract. It's cartoon. There's a difference. Cartoons are indeed much easier to draw than realism.

-I submit to you again, for the fourth time: Nintendo doesn't stay within a genre when its big competitors ramp up competition (and development costs). Instead of competing directly, they carve out a niche within the genre or drop it entirely. Do you or do you not disagree with that?

Re:I'm the one bringing up credentials?

[rAiNsT0rm]

I submit to you the fact that you are an angry little troll: Mr. orangetrashface who also posts at Ars and has to attempt to assert himself there as well in such eloquent replies as these:

Yeah, which is exactly why my point that they haven't exactly shown us anything new still stands. If they've shown some new games- please show me where that is a FACT and not just a RUMOR.

Until then you can climb down off your high goddamn horse.

And gems such as this from around the net:
actually, you are mistaken.
mammals evolved, like reptiles and amphibia, from fish. fish originated from single-celled organisms. or do you think whales were once elephants.

there are still fish swimming deep under the sea of South Africa, almost extinct, with the bone structure of mammals (evolved fish dont have bones). The human foetus, in fact, at one stage has gill ridges, that later turn into the ear.

Fish don't have bones, eh? You sure are smart!

And best of all we have: http://www.myspace.com/orangetrashface

Priceless. You are a total tool. Nice sideburns. And I like your semi-attempt to fancy yourself a MMA/grappling expert. *Please* tell me this is true and where your gym is in Norman Oaklahoma. I've fought MMA for some time and I'd love to actually get the chance to make good on my claims, we can settle this un-geeklike.

So "Docta Watson"/"Orangecrushface" do you really want to keep this up? I suggest you slink back to your very insightful evolution speaches (which you obviously are an expert on), and self-indulgent posts trying to discredit someone with actual industry experience while supporting a blatantly non-factual article, and go back to being a "paralibrarian," bass playing, misfit asshole.

Thank You, That is all.

Wow you got me there

[DoctaWatson]

Way to stalk me across the internet and bring up shit that's years old. That sure does refute my points.

Oh wait, no it doesn't. It just means you're a creep who is more interested in threats, ad-hominem attacks, and intimidation than actual argument and discussion.

So you go right ahead and stick to your threats, and I'll keep calling you out when you make reactionary claims with only your crappy writing credentials to back them up.

I'm not going to play your stupid little game and start discussing myself. Never once have I claimed to be an expert on anything, my arguments stand on their own without the need to toss around any credentials.

Re:Wow you got me there

[rAiNsT0rm]

haha, boy sure are defensive now that the cover of anonimity is lifted a bit... aren't we?

Crappy writing credentials. Yep, that's all I got. I guess playtesting, market analyst, editor in chief, sales, and design don't count. Oh, yeah that's right, you simply dismiss those too as mere child's play. I do claim to be an expert, because I am, not to boost my ego or show off... but to lend a different perspective to the same usual replies that stories around here get. Notice how I don't use an account name or link to any professional venture of mine? I *must* be trying to further my agenda by using a one-off slashdot ID that has no personal gain linked to it.

Wake up man. And if by "stalk" you you mean typing in your PUBLIC EMAIL ADDRESS into google, then I guess I am a stalker. Man, I sure use some hard nosed tactics!

Oh, and way to dodge the MMA question. If you are an expert in MMA and grappling I would think you would *love* to showcase your skillz, I would. Oh, that's right... I'm just a phoney though who makes stuff up on an internet website to inflate my ego... I almost forgot.

My stupid game vs. your stupid games == Checkmate Cocksucker.

PS

[DoctaWatson]

That "fish don't have bones" quote was made by someone named Scav. If you're going to stalk me, at least do it right.

Keep it coming.

[DoctaWatson]

Your credentials still don't mean anything.* Your lack of obvious professional agenda hasn't stopped you from coming on here just for the ego boost you get off telling everyone that you're an expert.

Come on, Mr. Expert. Time to "showcase your skillz" of rhetoric and discourse. Let's go over this again:

Does or does not Nintendo abstain from competition within a genre to keep development costs down? If they don't, please show me where by providing an example of one genre with quality big name competition that Nintendo hasn't opted instead for niche gameplay or abandoned the genre entirely.

You used the examples of car manufacturing and abstract painting- I countered them with reasonable arguments, I'm still waiting to see what you have to say about that.

* I haven't called you a phoney. I truly do believe you've done some writing for Maxim, Stuff, a Playstation rag and probably some other magazines or websites. At least, that was your crowning expertise a month ago. Today, suddenly, your expertise includes market analysis, design, and hand to hand combat.

I would be dubious, but you have that convenience of not linking yourself to any professional venture. So I guess we just have to take all that expertise on faith. The only other thing we have to go on tells us that you're a 25 year old network administrator. Look out, Warren Spector!

Re:Keep it coming.

[rAiNsT0rm]

Metroid Prime. geist. - FPS
Zelda. Paper Mario. - RPG
Super Smash Bros. - Fighting
Mario Baseball Allstars/golf/tennis. - Sports
F-Zero. - Racing/wipeout
Battalion Wars. - RTS
Advance Wars - Turn-based strategy

I can go on with more from every genre available if you would like me to. Not only that but in almost every one of those examples Nintendo not only offers the base standard but a ton of replayability and extra "content" over their competitors.

There is no such thing as a company trying to abstain from competition in a genre. Especially Nintendo. They generally offer super-refined control schemes on top of the providing the standard gameplay in the genre, all while adding content and replayability as well as a twist or two to differentiate themselves. Just because it may not appeal to *you* or so-called "Hardcore" gamers who are really just immature narrowly focused individuals, doesn't mean that they don't have a presence in every genre out there.

I brought up the other positions I've held because you stated, and I quote: my "crappy writing credentials" were all I had to prove my expertise. And yes, I'm not your average geek in that I am a boxer as well as train in MMA... something you claim an interest in and I routinely travel for fights so I figured you may want to put your money where your mouth is next time me or a friend has a MMA fight somewhere near your location. See, people like you are offended when someone backs up their statements with their credentials. There are tons like you on the internet. If someone makes a claim, you will bash it because they have no credibility to make said claim and ask for proof... but then when someone explains their credibility to make a statement you bash that as "ego" and dismiss its importance. Which way do you want it then? People like you make my blood boil, and yes... in real life you probably would have been a broken mess if you would act the way you have towards me on this site.

See, it is YOU who are on a high horse. You try to trip people up in your tangle of "I WANT NUMBERS AND FACTS AND CREDIBILITY!" and then when it is given you shout "YOU ARE A LIAR, THOSE CREDENTIALS MEAN SHIT, WHAT DOES YOUR EXPERIENCE MATTER OVER MY COMPLETE SPECULATION!" I know you will not hear any of this or see the error in your ways, but its worth a shot. All I've done is use my experience and extensive knowledge of the subject matter to show *WHY* this guys articles don't get widespread press and why he is certainly not a "genius." To make such a bold statement I must give my authority, and I did. Sorry your are offended by that, for the life of me I can't see why it would. If I was in a discussion on here about medicine and someone spoke up and said "thats bullshit, I'm a doctor and have been one for 4 years and here is why..." I would accept this and move on, not bash the guy as an obvious fraud and still try to asssert my superiority on the subject matter.

Again, Stylistic games cost more to produce. They involve tons more artistic work. Tons more attention on minute details. Tons more focus on gameplay and controls. and many more artists. Again, the abstract example stands. It is much easier to mimic reality than it is to do something new and unique. Try it yourself. Without looking at a picture draw a sketch of a whale. Now, get a picture of a whale and draw it from the picture. Which was easier and quicker? And more importantly accurate. PLEASE, for all that is holy... do some research on this online or ask in a forum that has active game artists/texture artists. I can talk until I'm blue in the face and you won't believe it... so to prove it, go ask anyone with any knowledge of the subject. Please. That is how sure I am, and how much you will relaize you and the guy who wrote that article is wrong.

Re:Keep it coming.

[rAiNsT0rm]

Why so quiet now? Did you give up? I was looking forward to reading your response. Pity.

Re:Keep it coming.

[DoctaWatson]

Competitors:
FPS = Halo, Nintendo's response? Metroid Prime, about as non-traditional FPS as you can get. An excellent example of Nintendo opting for niche appeal rather than brute competition. Compare the budgets and come back to me.

RPG = Final Fantasy series. Nintendo's response? Again, about as far from traditional RPG as you can get. While other companies try and fail to top Square/Enix with bigger and flashier, Nintendo opts for innovation. Again, look at the savings for Nintendo by avoiding the multi-million dollar arms race within the genre.

Fighting = Tekken, Soul Calibur, Mortal Kombat Virtua Fighter and DOA have crowded this genre and set the barrier to entry so high that Nintendo would be stupid to compete directly. SSB is another dramatic departure from genre norms (otherwise known as "innovation").

Sports = EA Sports games, who got their position by tossing ungodly heaps of money for liscensed content. You can't honestly believe that Tiger Woods and Mario Golf share the same genre do you? That's like saying Mario Kart and Grand Turismo share the same market. Again, Nintendo eschews traditional competition and saves a bundle.

Futuristic racer = Wipeout. Frankly Nintendo hasn't needed to innovate much because the genre is relatively content-free, and competition hasn't really made things worse. Ever wonder why the number of tracks in the F-Zero series has stayed roughly the same for more than ten years?

Battalion Wars was released two days ago, so we can hardly know its status as competitive within its genre. I can guess that if the game style gets cloned and a big name steps up.

As for Advance Wars, here's the first freakin' line of its Gamespot review: "Turn-based military strategy sims aren't a well-represented genre in the handheld market." You might be trying to make a case that Advance Wars competes with Strategy RPG's from Square/Enix and Altus, but it's clear that they aren't in the same genre.

In every single genre where the competition has threatened to raise development costs- largely due to increased content (bells and whistles), Nintendo has innovated and moved on, rather than fight for dominance.

I don't disagree that stylistic games cost more to produce (and the term content goes beyond visual style), but again I question the validity of your "abstract art" example: nothing Nintendo has ever done aproaches what could be called "abstract". What Nintendo does with their visual graphical style can largely be termed as "cartoon". And frankly, cartoons are easy.

You want an apology? Fine. I'm sorry I ever bothered to argue with you or question your credentials. It was futile to try and have this discussion and I should have given up on it long before now. Consider it closed.

And FYI, I would have replied faster but I suspiciously has a lot of new spam in my inbox...