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Opera Reaches 1 Million Downloads Thanks To Google
auckland writes "More than one million people have downloaded the Opera browser in the days since Opera announced it was dropping the ad banner and going completely free. All made possible because Opera signed a search referral deal with Google." From the article: "'The current most important deal now is with Google,' the spokesperson said to Mr. Malik. That deal, and similar ones with Amazon and eBay, give those companies prime placement in the Opera search box. Mozilla has a similar arrangement with Google, with its search box and its default right-click menu search option on highlighted text sending queries straight to Mountain View."
Opera free? Without ads? But Microsoft says companies can't survive like that!
A search for "internet browser" brings opera back at #1.
So how much does KDE and the Mozilla foundation get for their implementation in Konqueror and Firefox respectively? Missed opportunity?
Doh!
Hopefully this well help more people switch from IE. Or at least introduce some of the computer using public to the fact that IE is just a web browser and they can pick from many...
That is, as long as FF still gets users ;-)
How exactly do they plan on making money now?
Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
Damn, I was going to register spreadopera.com and start competing with a certain other browser, but a whois shows that Opera already registered that domain!
"How exactly do they plan on making money now?"
Printing press out back.
With this kind deal between companies? Sure, it may bring Internet Explorer down, but what does this spell for other browsers who do not have 'deals' with Google?
Staying one step ahead!
Lack of competition when you have no competitors is not exactly my idea of monopolistic behavior.
Heck, I'm almost ready to make the case in favor of MSN - at least if Yahoo goes down Google won't have a search monopoly.
Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
When Google first started out, the bragged how they won't let advertisors pay to be ranked higher in the search results, like Yahoo and other search engines did - that's what made their seaches such great quality. But it seems now that Google has changed their mind?
Free stuff without getting the referrals? http://referralaccelerated.com
*Sigh*
*bats eyelashes*
Is there anything they cannot do?
kinda sick, heh?
But, hey, I remember when Micro Soft (original name) used to treat its users with a modicum of respect.
I clasp my hands and hope Google stays, well, relatively Good.
Right now, a diversity of free browsers looks pretty good.
You can't talk about Wikipedia's flaws on Wikipedia
People should pay to see the Opera! after all, when you download it you miss all the fantastic costumes and corpulant players!
when will the RIAA do something about this!?
I'm not sure but was the headline to suggest that "No, Firefox doesn't suck, and it's still THE ONLY decent alternative to IE, because Opera CHEATS! -- They exchange traffic with Google!!!"
If so, then let me quote from the article:
"Mozilla has a similar arrangement with Google, with its search box and its default right-click menu search option on highlighted text sending queries straight to Mountain View. "
"Two things inspire me to awe -- the starry heavens above and the moral universe within." - Albert Einstein
...turns up a link to Firefox as #1.
But I'm sure you knew that.
Interestingly enough, Mozilla, Opera, Netscape, and Safari are all listed before IE.
Google pays MoFo for that placement.
They also seem to get to hire the best Mozilla developers, but I'm not sure if that's part of the deal.
In the beginning, browser competition was good. Like it or not, Microsoft's "Embrace and Extend" policy pushed the need for standards, even as it proceeded to ignore them.
Now, we have Firefox. It's good. It does a pretty good job of supporting standards. It's available for all platforms, free of charge. It's also open source. As a web developer, I think there's no reason for anyone to use anything but firefox, barring any special need for ActiveX or some such proprietary thing.
Opera, while certainly better than IE, hurts the world wide web by dividing the population even further. With more browsers out there, I can't count on my (standards compliant) code working everywhere, and I have to add hacks for each browser to make it work. Things get even uglier when I try to write a "fat" web app - different browsers support radically different scripting standards.
The chances that all web developers can account for all browsers is slim, and this mean s that any given website is less likely to work in your browser of choice. We need to work to pick a browser and dominate the market with that browser. This is one case where a monopoly would be somewhat beneficial. Capitalism SHOULD take care of this: if a browser has shoddy standards support, people wouldn't use it. Unfortunately, John Q. Public knows next to nothing about standards, and so many sites are still coded to IE that they are broken in other browsers.
Anyway, the point is: No more browsers, please.
And now, we are going to start seeing exploits getting released for Opera. As well as articles about how IE is more secure than Opera. Just give it a little time, trust me.
Since when did operating systems become a religion?
www.uncoverip.com
Why would anyone search for an 'internet browser' via their internet browser?
Oh, AOL users.
Somewhere, a CEO is throwing a chair through a wall ...
So, remember, everytime you do a search in Firefox, some money goes from google to Mozilla, estimates ranging from 50 cents to 1 dollar per user per year.
This space for rent.
1,000,001 - thanks google!
"I think there's no reason for anyone to use anything but firefox"
Ever use Firefox on Mac OS X or FreeBSD? It sucks, badly.
People will always have a reason to use alternative browsers, whether it's usability, suitability for their platform, or (gasp) personal choice. If you're such a hack of a web developer that you can't make your sites work in different browsers, perhaps you should find another line of work.
there's more than one way to do me.
There is no browser out there with full CSS 2.1 support. Not one. Certaintly not Trident (IE's engine). Not Gecko (Firefox's engine). Not KTML (Konqueror's engine). Not Webcore (Safari's fork of the KHTML engine). And not Presto (Opera's engine).
People talk about designing to the standards, but without a single web browser actually following said standards, web designers on the front lines have to work around different browser's quirks.
For example, a number of browsers support bits and pieces of CSS 3.0. Gecko and Webcore have support for opacity (translucent elements on a web page); Trident can do the same thing with the non-standard "Filter:" tag. However, Presto in Opera 8 has no support for this.
The workaround for Opera users is to use a translucent PNG instead. However, a translucent PNG used in mouseovers triggers a Firefox/Windows 1.0.x bug (probably fixed in Deer Park) where the mouseover image will not be loaded unless visible somewhere else on the page (I can mostly eliminate this bug by making the PNG in question visible on the page as a single 90% transparent pixel in the upper right hand corner. Which mostly, but not completely, works around the bug.)
Basically, with yet another CSS rendering browser out there gaining market share, while only implementing a subset of the CSS standard, web designers now have to work around the quirks of yet another browser. I like this kind of work, but a lot of designers hate this stuff and just throw their hands in the air and make their web page a 100% flash web page or what not.
With extensions like flashblock, adblock, linky, etc, I don't see myself switching to Opera any time soon.
I did see the adblock solution on the last story, and it seemed to be a convoluted scheme. So did the flashblock CSS suggestion, which seems to just block all flash objects unless you click one of them.
Still, it is nice to have another browser for testing HTML, and not having to see their ads is a plus(although, I wasn't too bothered with them to begin with).
now that opera changed the USER AGENT ID, what i'm really interested is in seeing how much will change in the stats for IE...
Opera is a nice browser, but I just can't understand their policy on the keyboard. If you use KDE it says you have to change some hotkeys of the enviroment, instead of changing them on the program.
And they really should change to Ctrl+T to open a new tab, IMHO.
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If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
So Google infiltrates yet ANOTHER aspect of the Internet. This strategy of embedding itself into the fabric of the Internet looked cute before the company went on to become the next stockmarket darling, now I can't help but see each new step in increasing its mind-share as Bill Gates in double.
This stockmarket-listed company's strategy is to 'organise the world's information'. The Internet is resembling one large Google Ad to rule them all!
Do we believe in the inherent goodness of this corporation's dollars as it buys, sponsors, advertises its way into open source?
The summary of this article is very unclear about the point. To be clear: people didn't download Opera because it uses Google. Rather, they were *able* to get Opera for free because Opera had an alternative revenue stream with Google.
What with yahoo just down the street in sunnyvale, HP up north a touch in Palo Alto, and Apple a bit South West, in cupertino, A microsoft campus, and S3 in santa clara, the greater mountain view area hits slashdot quite often, I think.
That's why they call it sillicon valley.
Opera, my favorite browser, supported by Google, my favorite search...
It's paid placement, and I realize that, but I would probably end up at google anyways, even without the placement. For me, its a feature.
FanFictionRecs.net
IIRC they are giving away thouer browser to PC (both windows and linux) and MAC users but they are not giving it away for other platforms. Presumablly thier aim is to gain mindshare (among both users and web developers) with thier free PC browsers and then sell browsers for platforms like mobiles either to the mobile vendors or direct to end users.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
"Thanks to Google"
It goes side by side with the story about MS's worst nightmare being the web as the next platform. In order for this to happen, the web needs to become truely standard across all browsers and platforms. This will not happen with IE the way it is. Google being a major player in that nightmare, needs to make sure MS's handle on proprietary web technologies ends soon. This can be achieved by helping Opera and Firefox which is exactly what they are doing.
[alk]
"free internet browser", gives you www.mozilla.org
"best internet browser" gives you www.opera.com
"bad internet browser" gives you an article on Internet Explorer
"worst internet browser" gives you home.netscape.com
Amazing. Simply amazing.
Do a google search for: internet Search and google will be number 7. A little odd... putting themselves so far down the list. http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&q=in ternet+search&btnG=Search/
- Your stupidity got you into this mess, why can't it get you out? -Will Rogers
I bought Opera a few years back, and it's till my main browser because
- no virus / exploits, prolly not because it's better code, but because it's so little used that hackers don't bother
- native tabbed browsing (years ago, Ffox didn't have THAT, and Opera's is still good now)
- native mouse gestures, I can lay back and browse without the keyboard, and without endlessly monving the pointer back to the tool bar (I actually switch those off, and use it full-screen most of the time: F11)
- it just works, very few sites have problems with it
- it's easy to switch plugins on/off (flash...)
-> I still haven't found a compelling reason to switch to FFox (which I also installed). But then again I doubt there IS a reason to switch from Ffox to Opera nowadays, except maybe security IF all those alerts about FFox result in a major problem sometime.
The mail client sucks, they should just give up on it. It doesn't support ActiveX, which is a blessing and a curse. And of course, it's closed source. But at least it's NOT M$.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
Most people as far as I know just say you need a "browser", not an internet browser, free browser, web browser, or other two word compositions.
Searching for "browser" gives Mozilla & Firefox number 1 & 2 position.
All statistics already counted Opera properly. They included Opera in the USER_AGENT, and it was duly noted. Only poorly written scripts were fooled, which was the whole point.
It doesn't spell anything for other browsers. They just have to have their own way to raise funds. They can do that however they want.
If FF and Opera can get Google to pay them for their users searching with Google, more power to 'em. Many would already be using Google in the first place, and the "Google box" is really convenient and easily switchable to some other search engine.
Of course, that last sentence reminds me a lot of "It's very convenient to bundle a web browser with an operating system and it's easy to choose a different one". Which is a true statement as well. With MSN and other competitors trying to take Google's place in search, Google is trying to keep their name first in the minds of the population running Opera and FF -- the population that often thinks of itself at the "net-elite" and is very likely to recommend things to "not-elite" friends. Which is exactly the advantage that Microsoft's IE has, that it's the first one there.
Interestingly enough, at least on FF1.0.6/GNULinux, you can't add new searches to the "googlebox". There's an "Add buttons" item, but it only adds a particular kind of bookmark that lets you type, say, "wp foobar" into the address bar and give you a wikipedia search for foobar. And they don't exactly document that fact well at all. So it does look like the "googlebox" is an exclusive space for Google, Yahoo, Amazon, Dictionary.com, eBay and Creative Commons (one of these things is not like the others?). I mean, of course, FF is open source and I could go through the code and change it. It's probably really easy. But what's interesting is the total lack of acknowledgement of the pay-for-space aspect of FF/Moz. I'd have thought I would have heard of it by now.
Whatever. It's non-intrusive and useful. If it gets intrusive I'll use something else. (Actually Opera getting rid of its adbar caused me to download it and I use it from time to time... so that bit of non-intrusiveness does count.)
I'm now firmly committed to using Mozilla for web browsing. But for folks who have older computers with say, 64 or 128 MB of RAM, Moz is just too much of a memory hog. For me, Opera is a nice medium between the overly vulnerable IE (especially pre XP SP2 - ie. almost everyone who has less 256mb of RAM) and Mozilla.
Now, without the ads, their 800x600 15 inch monitors are much more useful too. =)
Isn't competition nice when it works?
But it's not that often the towns are mentioned by name.
If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
That's funny, because last time I checked, Opera is standards compliant. I never had a problem opening web pages that used proper CSS and XHTML with Opera. As long as you stick to standard HTML or XHTML/CSS, you shouldn't have problems opening your web pages in Firefox and Opera. (IE still doesn't support all of the web standards, unfortunately).
Hate to break it to you, but not everybody thinks Firefox is the best thing since sliced bread. I switched to Opera from Firefox a few days ago because it is much faster and much more responsive on my machine (an old 266MHz Pentium II with 64MB RAM). Free Opera was a godsend to me; I couldn't deal with Firefox using my hard drive swap space any more. And then Konqueror and Safari are also nice, standards-compliant browsers. Opera, Konqueror, and Safari users don't need to drop whatever they are doing and switch to Firefox. Heck, I wouldn't even force an IE user to switch to an alternative browser. Hey, whatever floats your boat....
besides selling to the alternate (mobile) platforms, they're offering direct support for about the same price (annually) as the previous windows purchase price.
didn't you get that anyways when you purchased it before? so in a sense, nothing's really changed except the "shocking" and wildly publicized press release announcing it is now "FREE". anything for free air time, i guess.
After the 'going free' announcement, I decided to give Opera another shot (I had previously used it when it had that aweful MDI interface) Anyway, I love it! All around it seems really slick - very quick response, very nice look, and it had a really tight feel (not sure what that is - it just seems very responsive). Overall the most 'professional' feeling browser out imho. I'm just hoping they come out with a badly needed googlebar (I like to do google news and groups searches - not just the web). Once they include that, I'll probably make it my primary browser.
Bob
I just downloaded it for the first time in a few years. Every other page I visit has severe flaws. I don't get why that wouldn't be frustrating unless you only used a few sites that happened to work. If you're on OS X, try Camino. It's basically what Safari should have been. Except for scrolling speed, I think it beats Safari in every category. I'd like to see a Web dominated by Gecko-based browsers. It's completely open and it's the best standards benchmark we have.
I agree that the keyboard UI could use some improvements (e.g. being able to capture keystrokes instead of making you spell them out, alerting you on conflicts without having to manually search from them yourself), but I don't think it's nearly as cryptic as you're making out
Read his other posts. The guy is obviously a clueless moron.
Google in the searchbox is, because it is the only search engine I use, almost as good news as it becoming free and bannerless. Now, if Opera can only change the keyboard shortcuts to the standards then I may even consider using it. That is the only reason I find it garbage. For instance, press ctrl-u in Mozilla, Konqueror, Galeon, Firefox, Epiphany or any other Linux browser except for Opera and you are viewing the source code. Press ctrl-t in any of them and you get a new tab. Press ctrl-l and you are in the URL bar. None of those work in Opera, and the same applies to just about everything else - not a single shortcut works as expected. Which is kind of annoying since I do web development and have a lot of browsers open in a tabbed window in fluxbox to make sure the pages look just about the same - but I will not have Opera as part of those tabs until they comply with normal shortcuts.. if I need to view the source I want to be able to do it whatever browser I happen to have open, so something that doesn't support even my basic needs don't get to be among my always-open browsers.
9/11: Never forget it was a false-flag operation
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LOL, goog one.
Oh wait..
Found an easier way to love ads - http://operaadfilter.com/
I downloaded Opera right before the story made Slashdot, so no thanks, Slashdot!
Heroscape, it's like legos combined with anachronistic wargames.
I feel smart as a bag of hammers. I saw Google and thought "Hey, this is on Slashdot so that really says thanks to Slashdot."
Heroscape, it's like legos combined with anachronistic wargames.
..start??
-First to have true tab support, reaaally fast tabs not chunky pieces of flab. Hit Ctrl+N one minute, you end up with a bazillion tabs. Yeah you can fill all those up and use them. Try clicking (shift+clicking) to open new links everywhere.. And then use the smart Ctrl+Tab to browse the last viewed pages, or all of them easily. You can easily figure out which page is what (from the titles) in a list of 500. How more pages would you want to fit in a browser?? Aside for that, really cool cascading or even tiling (right click on the tab for more options)
-Actually, if you're new and learning right click everywhere and pay close attention to the options revealed. The true power of the Opera is under the hood. And that is the OPTIONS everywhere. The older Opera versions had the options more out front, but that seemed to scare a lot of "lazy/zombie" users away, thus the new slick interface with more options as you go was created.
-Just think about this, compare the flab of FF or anything else to the slickness and tightness of Opera. So tiny, yet so many features well integrated. Thats one thing that adds to security, WITHOUT limiting any plugin possibilities. The set features are good, they have a reason of existance. If you need anything extra, all you have to do is know java, and you can stick it right in the interface WHEREVER you want it. For example, I have a bunch of applets here and there, one as a dictionary to pick up German words and give me English/Greek equivs. You could make anything, its up to you.
-If you're more of a seeker, once examining of all the interfaced options, go ahead and dig in the O dir, view all the ini files and see what you can do there. Opera's options are everywhere, left and right. But the idiot, even if he stared, would see nothing but pixels.
-I read a lot of silly comments like, oh, why can't opera have X behavior, X keys, X mouse gestures X whatever... Geez folks, are you that dumb? I was expecting to find nerds on here, not a bunch of hillbillies :P
All the above and a lot more can
be changed and defined in the said
options/prefences, just look around!
Getting to know Opera will only benefit you,
your surfing speed, and yields from the web.
-E-mail, and irc client also included. The e-mail client is more than I could ask for as far as e-mail goes. I read something about Active-X, and was like WTF??? E-mail was supposed to be, and SHOULD be text, and just text, no stupid html, with active x and active S and whatever else could bloat it more and make it a whole lot buggier. Opera's mail client is really powerful, smart and above all tiny and integrated. All in one sort of thing. The irc client is basic, but what else do you expect from a browser? Opera is basically your working swiss army knife, but don't expect a generous spoon for irc, why bload the code? Its pretty good for when you only have 5 mins, and want to use e-mail, irc and browse on someone else's comp.
-As mentioned somewhere above, opera can still run on my old crappy 333 laptop, FAST and efficiently. I barely notice the difference between my AMD 64 3400 and that piece of shit. (Except for screen size, and well, you can't overtab it.)
-But thats not all, I have been following and watching the behavior of those behind opera. And their stance on things. For example, the whole of Opera as a team are strong believers that all the options/prefences should be in the hands of the users. After reading the really dumb comments above, I must say, that if you don't like that overmentioned placed google search box. GO AHEAD AND REMOVE IT. I don't see why you would, since it IS USEFUL, but if you really want to... You have to dissasemble Opera, then find string x.... NO All you have to effing do is right click on the said box, and do.. remove from toolbar. TADA. Now you can go ahead and replace that with Yahoo, Xoo, Kaboo, kazavooo Whatever the heck you use. (I personally use fravia's set)
Sometimes slashdot is funny, but sometimes it is truly
how pathetic is the slashdot community that something like this gets modded funny? wait I have one! Linux Rules and Micro$oft druels!
I'd like to take this opportunity to thank our new Google overlords and welcome their money ... unh support.
.. paranoid crackpot leftover from the days of Amiga.
Amen brother. This is the only browser i've gotten customized PERFECTLY. Opera, man, its the way to go.
"Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies." -Thomas Jefferson
Almost as well as FeedDemon or NetNewsWire, depending on your platform. A few things skimped or just wrong, but mainly right and very much better than Firefox's headlines-only "Smart Bookmarks". In other words, Opera includes an email-style Description panel, and implements external urls (i.e., pictures, mainly podcasts I didn't check). That's nice. Otherwise, it's so darned foreign (like driving on the left side of the road), that I haven't taken the time to learn it yet. I've also got cookie-foot, which makes it hard to slog out of the Camino swamps to drier pastures. But I do like Opera. Just slowly.
``Tension, apprehension & dissension have begun!'' - Duffy Wyg&, in Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man_
1) SPEED. People love to say "it goes fast even on old equipment". Opera goes faster on fast equipment too. Firefox still has that annoying lag time when you click the back button, and Opera is nearly instantaneous. It is more memory efficient too, so it lasts for a longer time before a restart. It reloads to your previous position on crashes (which almost never happen). It can save your old pages you were viewing too, so if you close the browser, it will load them all back up. On benchmarks, Opera takes almost every single benchmark, as is shown here: http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/browserSpeed.html
2) Configurability. Opera is configurable as hell. Basically everything on the browser can be changed. Don't like the skin? Change it. Don't like the status bar on top? Move it to the bottom, or turn it off completely. Don't like the fast forward button? Get rid of it. It's this that gives you a highly functional browsing experience, while at the same time taking up a lot less space so you get more web page viewing. Choice is power.
The one down point that people like to point out is that occasionally Opera won't work on a page. The opera guys have spent years engineering little differences out of the engine, and that almost never happens anymore. And the thing is, that will start to change when a lot of people start using the browser. That, and I mean even Firefox misses on some of those gross IE designed garbage pages.
Look, I know a lot of people here are set on Firefox exclusively because its open source and blahdeblah, but don't decide your browser on nontechnocratic grounds. I've been surfing the net for over 10 years, and I remember when Opera 3 was out. Opera used to be a slow, buggy peice of crap that didn't work on anything. It's now an incredible browser, and it blows the competition away.
In short, just try it.
...when searching just 'browser', mozilla.org shows up #1 and Opera is bumped to #4. Not only that but Mozilla.org has some fancy extra links that no one else has, not even Opera.
My Google queries get sent to London, sorry.
Screw Opera Long Live Firefox and its glorius open sourceness And ?DEATH TO IE!!!
If You can read this sig you are on the internet
Don't forget search terms or mistyped URLs entered into the address bar.
Matched up with all the other data they collect those Google databases on all of us must be pretty damn full!
According to the announcement, the thing is that Opera has gotten a better search deal with Google than before, so I guess it's partly true. But paid search referrals have been there for ages.
Clever signature text goes here.
While the UI is somewhat cluttered, most of its features can be tamed or turned off.
I'm impressed.
I don't see why we have to choose browsers at all, really. I use both FF and Opera (IE as well for a couple of sites that need it, but I don't like using it) and have no problem with it like that. FF is my preferred browser, due to its easy to install extensions (I have weather forcasts in the menubar, Adblock, etc, it's heavily customised), installable search engines, and UI, but I can use Opera as well, for the voice commands.
For those who go on about Opera being first, I don't care what was first and what wasn't, I care about what's good now. And using both, I can say, for myself, that FF with extensions does all but the voice support as well as Opera for me, Deer Park having the same speed on the back button as Opera (one of the biggest changes). With FF Firetuned, 1.0.7 runs as fast as Opera (I have compared them side by side rendering pages). And FF's Tab Mix Plus gives it the better tab support, I think. Also, I like the way pages are rendered by Gecko over Presto.
But there are things I can see Opera being used for, including slower systems, OSes where FF isn't implemented so well, and any sites which don't work in FF (yet to find any that will run in Opera better than FF). And the voice control is just fun to use. I say bring on the browser wars, competion drives quality up and, as part as that quality, encourages closer adherence to standards. I may be an FF fanboy, but I still want variety and alternatives.
Opera's internal buils are very close to passing Acid2.
Opera 9, AKA Merlin, is adding XSLT, designMode, more CSS3 stuff and "HTML5".
Type "n stuff" in addressbar and you get google news. In search.ini you can add your own. Find Opera Search ini editor to do this for you.
Just to make my point, I installed Firefox and viewed some pages in it and in Internet Explorer side by side. All of the pages validated in both markup and CSS. Sure enough, Firefox was slightly different - not enough to ruin usability, but enough to make the page fail to render as intended in Internet Explorer. Now, Firefox may be more correct; it's not for me to say. What I can say is that using Firefox would give me an inferior browsing experience, because I want pages to render the way they were intended.
The article, if you read it, mentions that the Mozilla Foundation stands to make $30 million a year for making Google the default search engine in Firefox.
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As mentioned somewhere above, opera can still run on my old crappy 333 laptop, FAST and efficiently. I barely notice the difference between my AMD 64 3400 and that piece of shit. (Except for screen size, and well, you can't overtab it.)
My experience is that the only really fast rendering engine with modern CSS support is Gecko (Firefox). Presto (Opera) becomes dog-slow on my old PIII/450 laptop when trying to render a complex CSS page with CSS mouseovers and what not.