Slashdot Mirror


TransGaming Releases Fast Software 3D Rendering

gavriels writes "TransGaming has just released SwiftShader, an ultra-fast software-only 3D renderer that supports Vertex and Pixel Shaders. SwiftShader dynamically compiles the geometry and rasterization pipelines to produce code that exactly matches the graphics features a game or application is using. Demo download and tech details can be found on their website."

256 comments

  1. Ads by Lord+Byron+II · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ad-posts such as this one, wouldn't be as offensive if they would just come out and say that they're an ad-post. I.e., instead of "on their website", say "on our website". And make some sort of comment that, yes, the poster does have a vested interest in the content of the post.

    1. Re:Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I'm sure this guy agrees. Who is he? I don't know. Why are you asking me? *shifty eyes*

    2. Re:Ads by Anonymous+Custard · · Score: 2, Funny

      Slashdot Editor should change the post to indicate that.

      Change "on their website" to say "on our website".

    3. Re:Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      You sound tense. Why don't you unwind with a cool, delicious Coke(TM)?

    4. Re:Ads by Andrewkov · · Score: 1

      Actually if you click on gavriels's name up in the top of the blurb, it links directly to www.transgaming.com

    5. Re:Ads by Duncan3 · · Score: 1

      Hey, they have to pay the bills too, what with click through rates falling like a rock and all.

      Ads only work on newbies, and we're running out. This is the next step.

      --
      - Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
    6. Re:Ads by ZachPruckowski · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Personally, I'd like it if they had their own section. Like there is an Apple section, a Linux section, etc, how about a New Toys section? I mean, I'm all for reading about good new products, therefore I don't think ad posts are defacto bad, but it would be nice to distinguish them as biased towards the manufacturer.

      ::Braces for the inevitable "What, slashdot biased?" joke::

    7. Re:Ads by spun · · Score: 1

      Which only makes it more ludicrous that he did not write that bit as "on our website." I mean, come on, writing "on their website" makes it seem as if you are not affiliated, but then having your name link directly to "their" site? That's just sloppy!

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    8. Re:Ads by StarvingSE · · Score: 2, Informative

      If the poster has a vested interest in the content, then why would they want their site to be slashdotted???

      --
      I got nothin'
    9. Re:Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who do I have to blow to get my website featured on Slashdot?

    10. Re:Ads by hardaker · · Score: 3, Interesting

      How about we call the new section "slashmeat"? And then we can set up a web interface to post to slashdot and freshmeat at the same time! Two birds and all...

      --
      The next site to slashdot will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and start slashdotting it early!
    11. Re:Ads by HunterZ · · Score: 1

      That's a cool name in terms of mental imagery, but I also like the sound of FreshDot...

      --
      Arguing about vi versus Emacs is like arguing whether it's better to make fire by rubbing sticks or banging rocks.
    12. Re:Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're drinkin the wrong H20!

    13. Re:Ads by bluffcityjk · · Score: 1

      Personally, I prefer Pepsi Blue.

    14. Re:Ads by mcg1969 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Hey kid! Thanks.

    15. Re:Ads by gavriels · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, they already changed it. I wrote 'here', not 'on their website'.

        -Gav

    16. Re:Ads by bluelip · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'd say he's very much associated w/ Transgaming. He's even got his own page.

      http://www.transgaming.com/gavstates.php

      Transgaming surely lost my respect w/ this stunt.

      --

      Yep, I never spell check.
      More incorrect spellings can be found he
    17. Re:Ads by gavriels · · Score: 3, Funny

      I didn't write 'on their website', I wrote 'here'. The Slashdot editors made that change.

    18. Re:Ads by cyberdemo · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hey Gavriel, do you still sue people for packaging your software?

      Love,

      Someone who remembers the feud you had with Debian

      --
      I have no sig at all.
    19. Re:Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'here' says a lot. Ever tried googling 'here'?

    20. Re:Ads by AdamWeeden · · Score: 1

      I want Crystal Pepsi back!

      --
      I was quoted out of context in my autobiography...
    21. Re:Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Offtopic:

      Pepsi Blue was by far the *BEST* Pepsi drink ever created. I mean, who'd have thought that Blue Raspberry Pepsi would be so great? Too bad most people thought it tasted like rancid wastewater =\. I loved it.

      *misses his Pepsi Blue*

    22. Re:Ads by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 1

      Lots of people don't realize that submissions get quietly changed like this ALL the time.

      Michael had an incident once where he added sarcastic quotations around a phrase in a submission that weren't there originally. It was in the Politics section, and the addition of quotes made the submission look critical of Bush, essentially putting words in the submitters' mouth as well as editorializing right on the front page.

      --
      "Sufferin' succotash."
    23. Re:Ads by rpdillon · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I never really understood this attitude...is this news for nerds? You bet...I'm pretty interested when the #1 windows gaming emulation environment has a new product.

      There is a fine line between an ad an something that is news...it is all about targeting. That is why people that hate advertising (like me) don't mind Google adwords and posts like this. At least Gav didn't post as AC...there was nothing really dishonest about this post.

      Besides, anyone could have submitted a Transgaming-related post...take mine from last year...was that an ad? Because if so, I want some payment! =)

    24. Re:Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why?

      why do people get so upset when a company does something and slashdot dares to pay attention to it.

    25. Re:Ads by theStorminMormon · · Score: 1

      Exactly how is "here" any better than "on their website". You sohuld indicate your own vested interests, not feign neutrality. That's the point.

      --
      The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
    26. Re:Ads by bluelip · · Score: 1

      I agree that submitting the article as an AC would be worse even.

      I do believe you can be deceitful without being dishonest. In my eyes, we were deceived.

      As for "news for nerds" I don't find the article interesting, but I will admit that modern graphics programming isn't my cup of tea. (Bring back the copper bars demos and ansi animations ) :)

      I don't mind adwords either, but they are a) obviously ads and b) not even close to being as annoying/distratcing as flash ads. Their targetting doesn't do much for me, but since they are so unobtrusive, I don't bother to block them.

      Thanks for your polite response,
      Mike

      --

      Yep, I never spell check.
      More incorrect spellings can be found he
    27. Re:Ads by utnow · · Score: 1

      waaaater sucks. it really really sucks. gatorade is better.

    28. Re:Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      caffiene free crystal clear diet pepsi one!

    29. Re:Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, 'here' does sort of imply written in the first person...

      There's alot of things that Transgaming should be given a hard time for, but this doesn't seem to be one of them.

    30. Re:Ads by lolocaust · · Score: 1

      thats what the +1 funny mod was invented for.

      --
      Why does my post history abruptly stop? I want to laugh at the stupid things I posted as a kid.
    31. Re:Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I accidently drank H20 once, it gave me gas.

    32. Re:Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "here" was obviously a link, genius.

    33. Re:Ads by koreaman · · Score: 1

      If it's something Bush said, shouldn't there be quotes?

    34. Re:Ads by LurkerXXX · · Score: 1

      And how does 'here' show that you are affiliated with the site and just posting an ad? Put on a real disclosure next time you post an ad.

    35. Re:Ads by LnxAddct · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter. This is a geek site for geeks. Whether proprietary or open source, its still geek news. People are acting like its a big deal that you submitted a story about a company that you work for (nice article btw about DX10), and its not a big deal, I hope you don't stop simply because a few people on slashdot are making some noise.
      Regards,
      Steve

    36. Re:Ads by bluelip · · Score: 1

      >> do people get so upset when a company does something and slashdot dares to pay attention to it.

      It's not the attention that was paid being the problem, it was the presentation of the information that is causing the issue.

      Another example:
      A website (http://healthyliving.com/ states that Joe Blow soda is a great choice because of x, y, and z. Then you find out that Joe Blow soda owns the healthyliving.com website.

      All of the information could very well be accurate, but why not be straight and state the relationship between the reviewer and product?

      --

      Yep, I never spell check.
      More incorrect spellings can be found he
    37. Re:Ads by Trejkaz · · Score: 1

      Web accessibility guidelines say that each link with the same text on a page should link to the same location. Using short, non-descriptive text like "here" increases the odds of a clash. But on the other hand, the five dozen uninsightful comments which usually follow will almost certainly have clashing links anyway. *shrug*

      --
      Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
    38. Re:Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm confused. how does this situation translate to being deceived? I mean really, what's the difference between someone at the company posting it or JoeBlow posting it? Either way if the editors think it's news they post it. Were they deceived?
      do you really think they didn't know he was from transgaming?

    39. Re:Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It wasn't a quotation.

      Made-up example:
      Political leader X announced new tax cuts to spur economic growth.
      Political "leader" X announced "new" tax cuts to spur economic "growth".


      Spot the difference?

    40. Re:Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      editorializing right on the front page.

      Slashdot editor guilty of editorializing! Shock, horror, and confusion confound America! Stay tuned, full story coming up after the break.

    41. Re:Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your mom.

    42. Re:Ads by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 1

      It wasn't a quotation. It was a phrase in the submission that Michael put in quotes to mock the subject of the submission.

      See the AC here who posted an example.

      --
      "Sufferin' succotash."
    43. Re:Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is part of why everyone I know considers the politics section of slashdot a complete failure. The only people who actually enjoy it are the misguided who try to make it useful (and never get modded up) and the idiots and trolls who just like to argue or push their agenda without attempting to back it up (who always get +5 insightful).

    44. Re:Ads by koreaman · · Score: 1

      Ah, I understand now. Thanks for clearing that up :-)

  2. The Meat... by Beren · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here's the meat of the article for those who can't be bothered.

    • Vertex Shader 1.1 Support
    • Pixel Shader 1.4 Support
    • DirectX 9.0 class features
    • Faster than Microsoft's reference rasterizer
    • Available for Windows
    • Available for Linux under Cedega

    TransGaming's SwiftShader technology provides the world's fastest pure software 3D renderer with DirectX 9.0 class features, according to the company, including support for Pixel and Vertex Shaders. SwiftShader is built to provide the same APIs that developers are already using for their games and applications. This makes it possible to directly integrate SwiftShader into applications without any changes to source code. Direct3D 8 and Direct3D 9 compatible APIs are available immediately, and OpenGL-compatible APIs are also under development. Vertex Shader 1.1 and Pixel Shader 1.4 features are currently supported, along with the majority of features used by most developers when producing 3D games and applications.

    SwiftShader can perform over 50 times faster than Microsoft's Direct3D Reference Rasterizer in tests with sample applications, and can rival the performance of low end hardware 3D graphics solutions in some cases. SwiftShader achieves this unprecedented level of performance by dynamically compiling highly optimized code specific to an applications 3D rendering needs.

    SwiftShader is currently available for x86 CPUs with Intel's SSE multimedia instruction set extensions. SwiftShader runs on Microsoft Windows 98 and higher, and on Linux through TransGaming's Cedega portability technology.

    1. Re:The Meat... by MindStalker · · Score: 5, Interesting

      What I really want to know is can it use the 3D capabilities of your card while software rendering the things your card doesn't support. This would be the killer app for Linux and Windows.

    2. Re:The Meat... by Max_Abernethy · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Faster than Microsoft's reference rasterizer" isn't saying a whole lot - even if it's 50 times faster. It's called a reference rasterizer for a reason - it's not meant to actually be used in final products, it's just so you can see everything that DX supports. It's unusably slow.

      I honestly don't see the use for a pure software renderer. We have DirectX and OpenGL, which make compatibility with different video cards pretty easy. I don't think there are a lot of video cards out there at this point that don't support VS 1.1 and PS 1.4, and that will be especially true once Vista becomes commonplace and suddenly you need modern graphics hardware just to run your operating system. The intiative over the past several years has been to get graphics off the CPU, so this seems a little backwards to me.

    3. Re:The Meat... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If you can't get drivers for any modern card for your OS, optimized software rendering starts to sound pretty good.

    4. Re:The Meat... by Valiss · · Score: 1

      This would be the killer app for Linux and Windows.

      (empahsis mine)

      And with that comment, the product is surely destined to fail.

      --

      -Valiss
    5. Re:The Meat... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Problem is, most cards that have 3D support have very slow reads from video memory.

    6. Re:The Meat... by SScorpio · · Score: 1

      That why you should have bought an Nvidia card rather than that ATI. They work just fine under Linux with frequently updated drivers.

    7. Re:The Meat... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it can't, writing a wrapper that does it is trivial.

    8. Re:The Meat... by vasqzr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The intiative over the past several years has been to get graphics off the CPU, so this seems a little backwards to me.

      They started this back in 1995, before 3D hardware became commonplace. And they've just now finished it.

      I remember the old newsgroup posts where people were using MMX and writing '5 cycle per pixel' texture mappers and such.

    9. Re:The Meat... by JohnnyBigodes · · Score: 1

      Not as long as they're PCI-Express, which roughly means anything from the past 6 months onwards.

    10. Re:The Meat... by Tim+Browse · · Score: 1
      It's called a reference rasterizer for a reason - it's not meant to actually be used in final products, it's just so you can see everything that DX supports. It's unusably slow.

      Indeed - I did smile at the '50 times faster' claim.

      Devs don't call it the 'Slideshow Renderer' or 'Postcard Renderer' for nothing :-)

      It reminds me of a comment Erik made on Old Man Murray years ago:

      "The game runs in software, but if that idea appealed to me, I imagine I'd be too busy churning my own butter to play Blair Witch anyway."
    11. Re:The Meat... by Creepy · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm guessing no, because I don't think it's possible to do it with any performance. Think of it like this - you have a texture in graphics memory and you want to pixel shade it - you have to copy the texture to main memory, do the pixel shading in software, then recopy the texture back into graphics memory. If you're thinking pixel shade in software and then copy to memory, how do you know you can do that operation first? Bump mapping, for example, shifts the pixels of the texture and if you pixel shade first, you probably will have the wrong pixels shaded.

          The graphics card-memory bandwidth would be constantly in use, which may be a bottleneck (especially on older systems, since you'd be limited to 2-8MB of textures to maintain 30FPS). In addition, the graphics card wouldn't have the texture to work with while it's offloaded, so it would need to either do something else (if anything is available) or idle. You also wouldn't be able to render your scene unless all the textures were back on card, so that's another potential bottleneck (though that may be possible with changes to the hardware drivers).

    12. Re:The Meat... by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 5, Informative

      You DO know that you just described EXACTALLY what DirectX (DirectDraw/Direct3d) are, don't you? DirectX has a HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer) and a HEL (Hardware Emulation Layer). What isn't supported by hardware is SUPPOSED to be done in software (with exceptions of things too slow in software).

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    13. Re:The Meat... by polyp2000 · · Score: 1

      Perhap's he's running Linux on a laptop with a crappy S3/Savage chip that has little or no 3D supported in drivers. (I know because I am using one right now)

      --
      Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
    14. Re:The Meat... by b100dian · · Score: 1

      You can't - think about it:
      - Screenshots (reading video memory, instead of writing) are slower
      - Processing occurs inside that video memory. If you handle the "processing intructions" to the card, along with the textures, you wouldn't want to take back part of them just to execute your Host CPU Software procedure.

      And more, much more than this: pixel shaders - those are executed at the periphery of the output, wherefrom no one has read before..

      --
      gtkaml.org
    15. Re:The Meat... by kpansky · · Score: 1

      Slideshow? Like what 1 FPS? Huh. 50x faster than that is what... 50 FPS. You're right. Completely worthless.

      --

      --Kevin
    16. Re:The Meat... by MindStalker · · Score: 1

      Yes, but for example there are many mid range graphics cards that don't support pixel-shading. And I have yet to see a game the requires pixel-shading in which directx took up the job and did it for you. Other poster explained why this simply isn't feasible though.

    17. Re:The Meat... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mesa has a software rasterizer that supports vertex and pixel shaders. And it's free!

    18. Re:The Meat... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      OpenGL-compatible APIs will be available soon. Vertex Shader 1.1 and Pixel Shader 1.4 features are currently supported

      No OpenGL yet. VS1.1 and PS1.4? What's the point of this?

      You can get a 6600GT with full SM3 support for $150. I don't get what niche this thinks it's filling.

    19. Re:The Meat... by Rocko+Bonaparte · · Score: 1
      Faster than Microsoft's reference rasterizer
      Well I'll be, it can beat the reference rasterizer. That must be BLAZING FAST!

      The reference rasterizer is meant to be accurate, not fast. I'd hope it could beat that.
      --
      No I'm not trolling.
    20. Re:The Meat... by Tim+Browse · · Score: 1

      1FPS? What sort of slideshows do you go to?

    21. Re:The Meat... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fine is not good enough. Not futureproof, not crashproof, not instalproof. Support Opengraphics.org

    22. Re:The Meat... by Max_Abernethy · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing you've never used the reference rasterizer.

      If you're rendering a very simple object on a fast CPU, you'll get a few FPS maybe. Throw in basic shaders, you're down to 1 FPS. Add decent lighting (circa 2000 level) and enough polygons to form a meaningful scene, something you might actually want to render in an application, and you're looking at more like 0.1 FPS. (If you'd like proof, go download the DirectX SDK and try their samples). So basically, this thing might be better than normal software graphics,

      I'm sure this thing has some real applications, or else they probably wouldn't have made it. I'm just saying, it seems like an absurdly niche thing - it's for running really low-fi 3D applications on relatively new computers that, for whatever reason, have no hardware rendering capability at all.

    23. Re:The Meat... by daVinci1980 · · Score: 1

      You're confused. Cards that don't support pixel shading are low-end.

      You can get an ATI or NVIDIA card for around $20 that supports both vertex and pixel shading.

      It doesn't get much lower-end than that.

      --
      I currently have no clever signature witicism to add here.
    24. Re:The Meat... by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      Also I can report that when they say it is as fast as low-end 3D cards, by low-end they mean the original Voodoo 1.

      I tried it with UT2004, one of the reccommended games according to the readme. UT2004 in DX9 mode crashed right away. DX8 mode ran, but with series issues and low performance.

      I left the INI file at the default settings, except for the two settings they reccommended for UT2004. I left UT2004 on the quality settings I have on my machine, which is "normal" and "low" for all graphical settings. I lowered res to 640x480.

      I saw something like 5 to 8 fps average, barely playable. And even the cheapest of low-end cards can get several times that. On top of this, most visual effects were missing (Fire the lightning gun and see the impact but not the shaft), and there were major texturing issues (Most textures were just matte brown or white). My test system was a laptop with a 1.7Ghz Pentium M processor, roughly the equivalent of a P4 2.8ghz or 3.0ghz.

      Honestly I can't see this as being useful. Assuming they fix the visual glitches, yes, it is perhaps one of the fastest software renderers available. Unfortunately, it is totally useless. Any PC with a CPU fast enough to take advantage of this is going to have onboard or low-end 3D hardware that would run circles around SwiftShader.

      Think about it. The readme claims that the Pentium-M runs their software particularly well. However, all laptops ship with some sort of onboard 3D hardware, and all of it is loads faster than this software thing. Even the onboard laptop video these days is DX9. Many desktop motherboards ship with onboard DX9 Intel graphics, and few PCs sold don't feature any 3D hardware at all.

      So, again, interesting to play around with perhaps, but totally useless in the marketplace. I'm very surprised they convinced even one company to license this thing.

    25. Re:The Meat... by Trejkaz · · Score: 1

      However, the parent poster said "Linux and Windows", as opposed to just Windows.

      --
      Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
    26. Re:The Meat... by JacobO · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This sounds very much like Pixomatic, courtesy of Michael Abrash.

      The DX9 featureset appears to be the big win here, unless of course you consider Linux support important :-)

    27. Re:The Meat... by AugstWest · · Score: 1

      My test system was a laptop with a 1.7Ghz Pentium M processor, roughly the equivalent of a P4 2.8ghz or 3.0ghz.

      Say what now?

    28. Re:The Meat... by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 1

      That's true, but not everybody is willing to go buy a new graphics card just to play a casual game. Many don't even know how to open their computer case. And for laptops it's often not possible to upgrade at all. So here SwiftShader can be a valuable fallback.

    29. Re:The Meat... by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 1

      Please note that the reference rasterizer scales very badly, while SwiftShader actually becomes more efficient with more features enabled (e.g. sampling two textures instead of one doesn't halve the framerate). This is because of the dynamic code generation. Only the actual operations being performed are written as binary code and executed. The setup costs is almost constant, so using longer shaders results in relatively little extra code being generated. So for more complex scenes SwiftShader can perform much better than 50x the reference rasterizer. The reference rasterizer is the only other software renderer with DirectX 8/9-class features, so the 50x is just to ensure you that when you need shader emulation there is no better alternative.

    30. Re:The Meat... by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 1

      Unreal Tournament 2004 is a DirectX 8 game so it was never intended to run in DirectX 9 mode. Either way, is will be easy to fix. I have a Pentium M 1.4 GHz and get 16 FPS average in UMark for the DM-Rankin map using 2 bots. That's at 640x480 with bilinear filtering on. The lightning shaft doesn't get rendered when the framerate is below a certain level (dynamic LOD). But you should definitely get better performance than 5-8 FPS average and then you'll see it. I have never encountered any texture issues like you describe. Could you tell me what map this was in and which version you have? Both the demo version and v3355 work fine for me. Thank you for your feedback.

    31. Re:The Meat... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was getting about 15-20 fps in the UT2004 demo at 640x480, with no obvious graphics issues.

      This was with the 'dm_rankin' level, on a P-M 1.8 Ghz, with the two UT2004 settings in the ini file, most of the details on 'low' settings, etc.

      And Max Payne was getting probably about 30fps.

    32. Re:The Meat... by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 1

      One of the biggest problems with DirectX and OpenGL hardware rendering is managing the graphics card's capabilities. You never know on what hardware your application will be run. With SwiftShader, you get a fixed set of features so your application is guaranteed to work correctly on all other systems. It's a reliable fallback with the best performance you can get from your CPU. That's not enought for Doom 4 or Half-Life 3, but it's definitely useful for casual games. And this is only the beginning. The features will be extended to DirectX 9, and DirectX 10 once it's out. So it can function as a fallback for many more applications. Performance-wise it will also improve a lot over the next few years. Multi-core CPUs based on the Pentium M architecture will provide the performance for a whole new class of applications. There were two main reasons why hardware rendering became highly popular: performance, and standardized features. Today SwiftShader makes a gigantic leap forward in terms of software rendering features. You're no longer limited by having one, maybe two textures, but get nearly the whole DirectX 8 feature set. On the performance level, the CPU and GPU will also converge a little, because GPUs are hitting the same physical limits now, and CPUs have only just started increasing thread parallelism.

    33. Re:The Meat... by runderwo · · Score: 1
      OpenGL already does that. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a way to detect functionality that is supported in hardware apart from manually profiling the GL driver. As a result, you get software fallbacks in many cases where you just wouldn't have bothered rendering had you known it'd be in software. User configuration options can mitigate this somewhat.

      The crux of the problem is the OpenGL ideal - that a hardware accelerated OpenGL application and a software rendered one will be identical in their output, transparent to the user and the programmer. In general, this is great. But it would be nice to have a well-defined escape path for cases where you would in fact want to throw away quality for speed.

    34. Re:The Meat... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The D3D reference rasterizer is not meant as a software alternative to a hardware based implementations. It is simply a 'reference' implementation (as the name suggests). It is more focused towards correctness and not performance. It is something that developers test their app against, so they know if they are using the API incorrectly, or if the particular driver they are using is non-compliant. I believe that the reference rasterizer is no longer in the 'retail' installer for DirectX (like it was in earlier versions). It is something that is installed by the DirectX SDK.

      Saying that your software based driver is 50 times faster than the reference rasterizer is not saying much at all. I'm sure their implementation is very fast and very well may be the fastest pure software DirectX driver, but comparing it to something that was not written to be fast is misleading. In the real world (DCC, games), this driver is probably too slow to be a suitable alternative to hardware.

      50x sounds like a lot, but if you compare ATI/nVidia's latest and greatest to the reference rasterizer then you are looking at a 10,000x performance difference.

    35. Re:The Meat... by Solra+Bizna · · Score: 1

      So it's what SRT was going to be until I decided nobody would ever want it, except it's not open source. Frell.

      -:sigma.SB

      --
      WARN
      THERE IS ANOTHER SYSTEM
    36. Re:The Meat... by Breakfast+Pants · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately he isn't lying (or at most he is only barely exaggerating).

      --

      --

      WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
    37. Re:The Meat... by AlexMax2742 · · Score: 1
      Read his sentance again.

      What isn't supported by hardware is SUPPOSED to be done in software (with exceptions of things too slow in software).

      If games aren't doing this, then it follows that pixel shaders are too slow to be done in software. QED.

      --
      I'm the guy with the unpopular opinion
    38. Re:The Meat... by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      I downloaded and tried it.
      It sucks.

    39. Re:The Meat... by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      I was using UT2004's DX9 renderer. It isn't production quality, certainly, but on real hardware it is pretty close in speed and visuals to the DX8 renderer. I tested UT2004 with the DX8 DLL (which ran, slowly) and the DX9 DLL (which crashed right away).

      I am running v3355 retail. It was on ons_torlan, with the default number of bots (12 or 16 I think).

      I've re-benchmarked it with umark, 10 bots, ons_torlan. Average comes out to 10FPS. This seems to be in line with what I saw before, slightly higher FPS from less bots.

      I've taken a screenshot of the visual glitches, which can be seen here:

      http://teknews.net/~guspaz/swiftshader_error.JPG

      Notebook's CPU was forced to the max clockspeed at the time (Using Notebook Hardware Control). SwiftShader's INI was totall default except for the two UT2004 related settings. I'm going to save a copy of my UT2004.ini file for future reproduction and see if lowering the quality settings makes a difference (with the visual glitches). Let me know if you want a copy of my UT2004.ini file for reproduction purposes.

    40. Re:The Meat... by daVinci1980 · · Score: 1

      I'm gonna disagree with your usage of the term 'valuable.'

      As many others have indicated, their speed comparisons are not actually favorable for them. Being 50 times faster than the reference rasterizer is like saying that you're speakers can generate sound 50 times louder than a piano. While true, the purpose of a piano is not to be loud, but to generate accurate pitches.

      Similarly, the purpose of the reference rasterizer is not to be fast, it's to be accurate to the bit level. This lets you determine whether the problem you are diagnosing belongs to you (incorrect image when rendered with the refrast), or the hardware vendor (correct image when rendered with the refrast).

      --
      I currently have no clever signature witicism to add here.
    41. Re:The Meat... by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 1

      Thank you for the details!

      I can confirm that ONS-Torlan is quite slow compared to medium and small sized maps. We primarily used DM-Ranking for performance analysis. I also saw rendering errors, but different ones than yours. By setting MaxPixelShaderVersion=0 they were gone. So you can probably also get correct results by altering the settings. Performance might also vary significantly depending on a few critical settings.

      Please note that we never had any contact with the UT2004 development team, so ensuring good compatibility was hard and there hasn't been any rigorous testing with all settings. Since UT2004 already has a software renderer it was never our highest priority. Of course with new clients we make sure everything works flawlessly, and by working closely together we can quickly locate and fix bugs.

    42. Re:The Meat... by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      On DM_Rankin, (absolute lowest in-game settings, 640x480) I'm seeing 13FPS with 12 bots, and almost 17FPS with 3 bots. So I guess that's in-line with what is to be expected. Again, default SwiftShader settings. I wouldn't know where to begin tweaking, so I'll just leave them as-is.

      I'm hoping you guys will keep the demo updated to the latest version. I have no reason to licence the engine, but I've always been interested in software renderers, so it is the kind of thing that I'd like to poke around with when new versions come out.

      I'm thinking I'm going to try into HL2 just to see what happens. And maybe grab an OpenGL wrapper and try it on GLquake for kicks. Or maybe I'll be lazy and just use D3DQuake ;)

    43. Re:The Meat... by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 1

      SwiftShader is valuable with or without comparing it to the reference rasterizer. I don't think I used it as an argument here. It's a fallback for when no hardware support is available and it offers the best performance possible on a CPU.

    44. Re:The Meat... by daVinci1980 · · Score: 1

      That's the part you're missing, I'm afraid. 'Best possible performance' on the CPU (for rendering) is a joke. Best possible is irrelevant. It's not acceptable at all.

      SwiftShader is touting that it's the fastest CPU renderer around with DX9 features... Except that the code doesn't support DX9 features. (DX9 features include VS2 and PS2, neither of which are supported by SwiftShader). And if you think for a second that I could just drop SS in without reworking a ton of code to get over the 0.01 FPS mark with a software shader, you're a fool--or at least without any experience in the matter.

      --
      I currently have no clever signature witicism to add here.
    45. Re:The Meat... by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 1

      So Quake was irrelevant, not acceptable at all? The fact is that nowadays the PCU is almost a hundred times more powerful, and can run the effects of the previous generations of games. Max Payne for example was very popular and in those days used the most advanced 'hardware' features, but now runs smoothly on SwiftShader. And for our current main market, the casual games, it's more than adequate. These games, which were previously mostly limited to 2D (greatly because of the lack of proper 3D hardware on the systems of the target end-users) can now be written using the popular and powerful Direct3D API.

      You're right that currently the main Direct3D 9 specific features are not supported yet (although vs 2.0 is except branching instructions don't work properly). But complete support is under development and, depending on demand, could see the daylight sooner than you might expect. Performance-wise you also don't have to worry that it will run at 0.01 FPS. DirectX 8.1 shaders run at highly interactive framerates for modest applications and there's no reason why DirectX 9 shaders will decimate performance.

      Of course, I certainly don't expect Unreal Tournament 2007's long shaders to run smoothly yet. But let's look at that again after 2007. Of course I fully realize that the CPU will always be much slower than the GPU. But I expect some nice things to happen with SwiftShader's technology in the future, although I can't discuss that in public.

      Say hi to Daniel Rohrer for me.

    46. Re:The Meat... by daVinci1980 · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure I understand your market.

      Is it to provide fallback for games that are 10 years old? Certainly you don't expect id to port their renderer to an DX9.

      Is it to provide fallback for games that are cutting edge (DX9)? If so, then the marketting claims you've made are erroneous. The engine cannot simply be dropped in. Are you telling me that your renderer can process 120M polys/sec at 1600x1200? That would be shockingly impressive.

      Is it to provide fallback for games that are a couple of years old (DX7/DX8)? If so, I wish you luck with that, but unfortunately RAD Game Tools beat you to market by about a year and a half.

      Is it to provide a method for people who are currently doing 2D graphics (ala Commander Keen)? If so, I think I should point out that people doing that would be better off using GDI or the 2-D OGL API, for any of several reasons. One is that the emulating 2-D in 3-D is necessary for some applications, but generally not preferable due to complexity. Another is that using GDI allows the hardware--should it exist--to potentially improve performance of 2-D "for free."

      And although you didn't make a reference to the ref rast comparison in your reply to me, you certainly did in any of the other 17 replies you made on this thread.

      Finally, if you believe that DX9 shaders won't decimate performance because DX8.1 shaders don't, you are kidding yourself. Beyond the fact that DX9 shaders support more texture fetches (causing cache misses), branching (causing pipe drains and cache misses), and dependent texture lookups (totally hammering any semblence of cache performance), you're ignoring the obvious factor that DX9 shaders can and typically are orders of magnitude longer than DX8 shaders.

      PS: I don't know Daniel, and it's quite inappropriate for you to bring mention of my employer into this conversation. That requires me to post-fix this post with a 'the statements I've made herein do not reflect the opinions of my employer.' Yada, yada.

      --
      I currently have no clever signature witicism to add here.
    47. Re:The Meat... by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 1

      Our primary market is currently the casual games. They are starting to use the Direct3D 9 API and even simple shaders. This allows for faster development, with more eye candy and more creativity. First DirectDraw got removed from the DirectX SDK, and now also the fixed-function pipelines are rarely used. This is certainly a good evolution but unfortunately not everybody has the proper hardware yet and for casual games this is the most critical.

      This is a new market, for new games. Pixomatic has little to offer here because it is limited to fixed-function processing with only two textures (which even the most crippled graphics solution is capable of). SwiftShader has almosts complete Direct3D 8.1 support, Direct3D 9 features are under development, and it's performance is best-in-class.

      Regarding Direct3D 9 shaders versus Direct3D 8.1 shaders, yes, they can be significantly longer and more complex. But they don't have to be. We see a trend where every game starts using shaders, even if they could have used the fixed-function pipelines. For the simpler games, SwiftShader can provide adequate performance.

      And I just meant to say hi...

  3. In short, No. by Digital_Quartz · · Score: 5, Informative

    OpenGL is an API, which programmers use to describe a set of graphics primatives.

    SwiftShader is a renderer, which draws things.

    You would, in fact, program your code in Direct3D or OpenGL, and then use SwiftShader as the renderer, the same way today you would program in Direct3D or OpenGL, and then use your ATI X800 as the renderer. They even mention, in the article, that "OpenGL-compatible APIs are also under development".

    The only difference is that, compared to an ATI X800, SwiftShader will be very slow, and compared to the SuperImageCrazyMagic 9000 VGA+++ graphics card in my crappy laptop, SwiftShader will be quite fast.

    1. Re:In short, No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So it would be similiar Mesa's implementation of the shader language (if it has one)?

      I thought the whole point of a GPU was that graphic ops are non-optimal for a general purpose CPU. I guess SwiftShader has a purpose, like Mesa does, but to what end? Do you program your game for the highest level API available and then depend on middleware like SwiftShader to fill in the software/hardware gaps?

          Using SwiftShader seems less optimal than designing the engine to handle different hardware setups, i.e. I query the device to see if it supports HLSL, and if it does use it, otherwise use something else. With SwiftShader, the device will report that it supports HLSL, but using it will be less optimal than if the game engine simply used different graphics ops for that hardware.

          I dunno. I see it being incorporated into game engines as a fallback, but DX9 compatible cards are pretty cheap these days. It's not hard to shell out $60-$100 for a cheap DX9 video card when you are paying ~$40 per new game.

    2. Re:In short, No. by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 1

      The generated code heavily relies on MMX and SSE instructions, which are relatively well suited for pixel and vertex processing. Mesa makes very little use of these instructions, and doesn't have dynamic code generation at all as far as I know.

      Indeed SwiftShader can function as middleware to solve hardware rendering problems (mostly missing features). It's not exactly ideal, but game developers generally aim for quite high graphics requirements. Sometimes because they want the game to look good on modern hardware, but also because the latest API is easier to use. Unfortunately, checking hardware capabilities and providing alternative rendering paths is very hard, especially since they work under a lot of time pressure. For games that actually don't need incredible fillrate to be playable, SwiftShader can be a reliable fallback.

      Of course you're totally right that most gamers will still want to invest in upgrading their graphics hardware. But in the situations where this is not desired or impossible, SwiftShader opens up new possibilities.

  4. Desktop Environments by taskforce · · Score: 4, Interesting
    If this can do what it's boasting it will certainly come in handy for Graphic heavy desktop environments such as the Aero Glass Theme Windows Vista is using. If a Linux GUI (ho ho ho) can provide an experience as rich as Aqua or Aero and base it on this software rendering it could make leaps and bounds on the desktop as more savvy system admins decline to purchase the latest gaming card so they can run Vista.

    Obviously I realise that a lot more is needed before desktop Linux taxes off, but if someone could capitalise on this we could have a decent GUI utilised without pissing all over Linux's reputation for not taxing hardware too heavily. (Personally I prefer an understated GUI which uses no resources, but obviously there is a market for eye candy.)

    --
    My 3D Texturing Skinning work (under construction)
    1. Re:Desktop Environments by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > savvy system admins decline to purchase the latest gaming card so they can run Vista.

      Sigh. I wonder how many times we will have to read this bullshit (and even moded up).

      (Hint: Vista will run without 3d gfx cards, it will just look less fancy).

      I'd mod you down, cause you're plain uneducated troll.

    2. Re:Desktop Environments by earnest+murderer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A: Admins don't care about Aero Glass, the Windows 2000 UI will do just fine for Vista installs.

      B: This is only usefull for runing Aero Glass if the only thing you are running is Aero Glass. Real work will have to take a back seat while this is grinding through the glorious shading of your progress bar.

      C: This totally misses the point of what Aero is for. Getting the UI grunt work off of the CPU and onto the video card.

      This is a neat trick, and possibly usefull for some very specific purposes such as foolproof DX9.0 rendering in Linux reguardless of the state of device drivers. Hardware review sites could get some milage out of this. Especially when they need to know what a game/benchmark is doing in certain situations and image quality comparisons.

      --
      Platform advocacy is like choosing a favorite severely developmentally disabled child.
    3. Re:Desktop Environments by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, are you advocating that we bury the X11 / Athena Widgets, and rebuild a Linux desktop using APIs modelled after DirectX ?

    4. Re:Desktop Environments by DrCode · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Isn't this a commercial product? It's hard to see how any Linux distribution could be based on this.

    5. Re:Desktop Environments by Kristoffer+Lunden · · Score: 1

      Several Linux distributions are based partly around comercial products, for instance Xandros includes Crossover office, and Linspire also includes some paid for software if I remember correctly.

      However, a free (in any sense of the word) Linux distro is hard to see.

    6. Re:Desktop Environments by VoltageX · · Score: 1

      I really hope some of these ideas make it out of the cage known as SlashDot -- into the community where they can actually be useful.

      --
      "Anonymous could not immediately be reached for further comment." - International Business Times
  5. Question... by joemawlma · · Score: 0

    So would something like this make it possible for me to play my MAME rom of 'San Francisco Rush' (jeah)? I cannot use my video card to play it and it runs like crap off software currently.

  6. The Point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I realize that I'm just a humble AC, but let me say this: I'm not certain I understand the point here. Casual gamers are exactly that, casual. They're more interested in online play like Java Applets or MIDP Applications for phones than they are in Gee Whiz Bang games that they must install to their computers. So from that perspective, I really don't understand what market TransGaming plans to attack with this new software.

    Even if we assume that casual gamers are looking to install games onto their computers, it's hard to say that such gamers wouldn't have at least a basic 3D card to play games on. Even the Intel Integrated Graphics (about as bad as you can get) has decent 3D support. Are the Gee Whiz features of DX9 really all that important to these players?

    1. Re:The Point by Surt · · Score: 4, Interesting

      For developers, this can be very useful, particularly if they can get it up to date on the newer pixel and vertex shaders for the simple reason that running your application on the real hardware can nuke your system, and running in the existing microsoft renderer is painfully slow. This could provide a useful compromise.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    2. Re:The Point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      One thing this might be able to do is to offer features like pixel and vertex shaders that might be missing from lower-end hardware. It'll probably be useless for playing Quake4, but it might be useful for some applications. Having said this, if they are trying to sell this directly to customers, they will fall flat on their face. People aren't used to paying for drivers (in this case, drivers for virtual hardware). If it's as fast as they say it is, they should try to sell this technology to Microsoft to be integrated into the Direct3D software renderer.

    3. Re:The Point by USSJoin · · Score: 1

      The point is that Transgaming developed this, and it's a DX9 implementation. That means that Linux can now use DX9. This is unbelieveably important, because now, Windows games can be more quickly ported over-- and/or, Cedega can be more effective at just directly running Windows games.

    4. Re:The Point by LilGuy · · Score: 1

      I'm not quite sure what YOUR point is Mr. AC. Someone can be a casual gamer and still LIKE the new ultra-gore-supercomputer-requiring-behemoth games that come out. Plus, seems like just another step towards having more kickass games for linux which EVERYONE wants. EVERYONE.

      --

      You're nothing; like me.
    5. Re:The Point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      For developers, this can be very useful, particularly if they can get it up to date on the newer pixel and vertex shaders for the simple reason that running your application on the real hardware can nuke your system

      My point is that I don't see DX9 features as being something that casual gamers need or want. Most of the pixel shader stuff is for high quality 3D scenes. Perfect for a First Person Shooter, but an extreme overkill for 3D Space Invaders. (Do we REALLY need aliens with realistic fur that whips in the wind as they make their slow approach toward the ground?)

      A game that is targeted at the Casual Gaming Market should aim to meet the expected 3D Card support instead of wasting time on Gee Whiz Bang features that will do little else other than cause complaints about slow performance.

    6. Re:The Point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Uh... so in your world the difference between a casual golfer and a pga tour pro is that the casual golfers primarily play miniature golf and pitch-n-putt?

      Hate to break it to you, but casual golfers play on the same courses the hardcore pro's do, just not as often, nor as well.

      Ditto gamers. A casual gamer is just as likely to want to play the latest gpu taxing game on the shelf. They probably didn't preorder it, they probably don't play it 15 hours straight, they probably aren't in an online clan dedicated to it... but they *do* want it to run a hell of a lot better than 15fps.

    7. Re:The Point by Deathbane27 · · Score: 1

      Even the Intel Integrated Graphics (about as bad as you can get) has decent 3D support.

      But no shader support.

      My brother recently bought Battlefield Vietnam, thinking he could play it on his $500 Dell Dimension 42something. Of course, it wouldn't run. We had to go spend $40 on a PCI GeForce FX-5200 so he could play it. And the framerate on some other games was actually slightly WORSE than with the integrated chipset.

      If this had been available at the time, we could have saved the price difference for probably better results.

      Of course, I'm assuming it would be cheaper than $40, or perhaps come bundled with low-end computers with no AGP/PCIEx16 slots.

      --
      If it ain't broke, it needs more features!
    8. Re:The Point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its an interesting question concerning the need for this ability in software-only rendering. But one note on what a "casual" gamer is...

      I'm a Linux enthusiast and a casual gamer. I consider myself "casual" because I tend to go with one or two games that are favorites and stick to them for some time (sometimes for a LONG time if they're particularly good :) ). I don't rush out for all the newest titles as soon as they hit the shelves. If gaming was more of a deal for me, I'd probably have a windows partition handy (I used to way back when I first started using Linux on my desktop)... or I'd simply ditch PC gaming for a console.

      But I do play games. I'm partial to ones that are Linux native (NWN, UT2004, Q3, ET, AA). But there are times when I'm willing to jump through hoops to get a Windows game working... I have a Transgaming membership and use Cedega to run WoW.

    9. Re:The Point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone can be a casual gamer and still LIKE the new ultra-gore-supercomputer-requiring-behemoth games that come out.

      I think you misunderstand the definition of a "Casual Gamer".

      Hint: Someone who plays Quake 3 "every once in a while" is not what is meant by "casual gamer".

      The "Casual Gamer" of your defintion would NEED a 3D card, because software rendering won't keep up.

      The market defines "Casual Gamers" as people who like to play simple, not too involved games on occasion. i.e. Someone who plays Solitare to pass the time is a "Casual Gamer". Someone who plays Half Life 2 is not. It's a bit like comparing the guy who has a 12" TV to listen to the news to the guy who has a home entertainment system to watch the latest DVDs. The guy listening to the news doesn't need a Dolby Surround Sound upgrade to his 12" TV. He just wants to listen to the news.

    10. Re:The Point by zlogic · · Score: 1

      I play games like Doom III, Half-life 2 etc. about twice a week (or even less).
      Personally, I don't need a fast PC for my work (in fact, I use a Pentium III-1000, Radeon 9200, no dedicated soundcard etc). But paying 500+ bucks for a new PC just for 2 hours of gaming per week seems stupid to me. If I really want to do a lot of gaming, I'd get an Xbox 360 or Playstation 3 etc.
      But to play modern games (Doom III especially with its lighting&shadows), I don't need to buy any new hardware if a software-based option is avaliable for stuff like shaders etc. And if I really like the game, I may even upgrade.
      Oh, and I've used MS Reference Rasterizer as a game developer. It gave me something like 0.2 FPS on a very very simple game @ 320x240.

    11. Re:The Point by LilGuy · · Score: 1

      I disagree. I think a casual gamer is only a few steps from a hardcore gamer. Someone that likes to play games but doesn't dedicate time for it on a regular basis.

      *shrug*

      --

      You're nothing; like me.
    12. Re:The Point by evilneko · · Score: 1

      His Dell didn't have an AGP slot? Jesus I didn't think Dells were THAT cheap...

      --
      Slashdot - where to disagree, is to be a troll
    13. Re:The Point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try this article for better understanding. The term is rather new, but they needed something to describe all these people who love Bejeweled.

      A step back from a hardcore gamer, BTW, is a "serious" gamer.

    14. Re:The Point by LilGuy · · Score: 1

      GOD I HATE YOU WHY WONT YOU GO AWAY?!

      *cries in hands*

      Quit humiliating me!!! ... I've had too much coffee today.

      --

      You're nothing; like me.
    15. Re:The Point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ???

      I'm sorry, did I say something offensive? It wasn't my intention, I assure you. If this is about my veil of secrecy (i.e. posting as AC), I do apologize. I'm currently recovering from Slash-shock, and don't want to get too deeply involved in the conversations.

    16. Re:The Point by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      Personally I saw this from a different perspective; gamers who aren't willing to shell out extra $$$ for a new graphics card get to see the pretty effects that newer graphics cards offer, for 'free' (at the cost of performance). In the end, they may decide to actually buy that new nVidia or ATI card to get the new effects at high speed.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    17. Re:The Point by LilGuy · · Score: 1

      Erm.. I dunno. I think I was just too wired up yesterday. It was a long day of work after a long night of partying.

      I lub you.

      --

      You're nothing; like me.
    18. Re:The Point by bedessen · · Score: 1

      What's sad is that this is a reaction to the sad state of accelerated 3d drivers in linux. Doesn't it seem a bit outrageous that a linux gaming company has to resort to reimplementing all the hardware accelerated features in software -- functionality for which happily dump hundreds of dollars into the latest video cards -- because the current state of linux video drivers is either "Free but no 3D supported" or "Non-free and unstable and hard to install". It's like 1996 all over again... the conversation went something like, "Hey that new Voodoo card looks nice, but who needs dedicated 3D hardware? You can render everything just fine in software using the main CPU." Doesn't this seem like a huge step backwards? Haven't the last 8 or 9 years of gaming shown that the argument that "you can do it all with the CPU" is bunk?

  7. Fast Software 3D Rendering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Formerly known as slow rendering.

  8. Re:A Blow to OpenGL? by macklin01 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    With no free licensing for personal and/or academic use available, I don't see that happening. Furthermore, it's only supported on Win 98 and up and Linux. One of the principal strengths of OpenGL is that it works on all Windows flavors, Linux, Unix, Solaris, Mac, ... -- Paul

    --
    OpenSource.MathCancer.org: open source comp bio
  9. LOL, GamaSutra doesn't seem to realize that... by Assmasher · · Score: 5, Informative

    ...saying that it performs up to 50 times better than the Microsoft Reference Rasterizer you're actually calling it slooooow. The REF driver exists with absolutely ZERO optimizations explicitly for the purpose of discerning if a problem is in your code or is in the video card's device driver. Maybe they're confused about the old RAMP and RGB devices you could use to render in software. 50 times faster than REF is pathetic to be honest.

    --
    Loading...
    1. Re:LOL, GamaSutra doesn't seem to realize that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True. 50 times the fillrate of the DX reference rasterizer isn't helpful for any real rendering work. They need at least one more factor of 10 before the technology becomes viable.

    2. Re:LOL, GamaSutra doesn't seem to realize that... by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 2, Informative

      Please try the demos. You will see that they run at pretty impressive performance for software rendering, often many times faster than 50 times the reference rasterizer.

      The comparison with REF in the press release is just to indicate that SwiftShader is way faster than the only other alternative for Direct3D 8/9 emulation.

    3. Re:LOL, GamaSutra doesn't seem to realize that... by Assmasher · · Score: 2, Informative

      Oh, I presume that the demos are very much faster than 50x the REF, but again people should not be saying "the only other alternative for Direct3D 8/9 emulation" because first, you are not allowed to redistribute the reference rasterizer with a product because it is part of the DirectX SDK not the redistributables package for DX8 or DX9, second, there IS another DirectX 9 compatible API for software rendering and it is fantastically fast and feature rich, it's called Pixomatic:

      http://www.radgametools.com/#Pixomatic

      --
      Loading...
    4. Re:LOL, GamaSutra doesn't seem to realize that... by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 1

      Ah, you've got a point there. I wasn't aware that the reference rasterizer can't be freely redistributed. Still, SwiftShader is aimed at game developers, so I think it's useful to have the comparison. For example the EffectEdit sample only runs on the reference rasterizer and SwiftShader totally on the CPU, but SwiftShader is way faster. I realize that the reference rasterizer was never intended to be fast, but still, it's a lot nicer to see the samples run on SwiftShader than on the reference rasterizer. It just proves that a software renderer with modern features doesn't have to be terribly slow.

      Pixomatic has a Direct3D 9 interface but it's very limited. It doesn't support pixel shaders, vertex shaders, cube maps, texture compression, vertex blending, etc. It actually maps to the underlying Direct3D 7 class features of the Pixomatic rendering core. It certainly is fast at this but I wouldn't call it Direct3D 9 emulation. SwiftShader has almost complete Dirct3D 8.1 support and will get Direct3D 9 features in the not so distant future.

    5. Re:LOL, GamaSutra doesn't seem to realize that... by Assmasher · · Score: 1

      Actually, the EffectEdit sample runs just fine on the HAL if you're HAL can support the features it requires (it runs on HAL just fine on my nVidia FX3000.)

      As for pixomatic, they have their own pixel shader implementation which you can use in conjunction with the DX9 wrapper or extend the wrapper. They certainly don't support HLSL (yet.)

      Hopefully both products will have HLSL support soon, we'll see.

      Personally I'd like to see the performance comparison between an integrated DX8 grahpics chipset against SwiftShader. People who know 3D graphics wouldn't be dissuaded from SwiftShader by seeing it lose (if it did.)

      --
      Loading...
    6. Re:LOL, GamaSutra doesn't seem to realize that... by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 1

      A Quadro FX 3000 is DirectX 9 class hardware (and very expensive) so it's no surprise it runs the DirectX 8 EffectEdit sample fine. A better comparison is my laptop's integrated Intel Extreme Graphics 2, which doesn't support pixel shaders so two of the effects are not displayed correctly. SwiftShader already supports HLSL, as long as it can be compiled to ps 1.4 or vs 1.1. It has no restrictions on instruction count and register access by the way. Support for ps/vs 2.0 and higher is definitely planned. I haven't seen any shader support for Pixomatic yet. Performance-wise almost all integrated graphics will be faster. But some features are not supported by the hardware and then SwiftShader is automatically the winner. :-)

  10. Just remember .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just remember that there are no miracles. If it's ultra-fast
    and all, then it is either in fact a kick-ass uber-optimized
    code, which is totally cool, or it is fast in _some_ cases
    and it's still needs 'improvements'.

    I may sound like an ass, but there ARE no miracles. Not in
    computer graphics at least. Not since Bresenham and Doom :)

    Please prove me wrong.

  11. Next up... by Enahs · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...an uber ultra-fast fixed-point math library!

    --
    Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
    1. Re:Next up... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I hear software ALUs are the wave of the future... Wait a second

  12. Missing from the FAQs.. by onion2k · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm sure that creating this engine was an interesting challenge .. but .. why? 2D only graphics cards don't really exist anymore. It doesn't exist for non-PC platforms so it doesn't really aid portability (though they say in the FAQs it could if someone wrote a "SwiftASM" thing for the target CPU) either.

    Is it just a fun toy? Or have I missed something?

    1. Re:Missing from the FAQs.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


        I'm sure that creating this engine was an interesting challenge .. but .. why? 2D only graphics cards don't really exist anymore. It doesn't exist for non-PC platforms so it doesn't really aid portability (though they say in the FAQs it could if someone wrote a "SwiftASM" thing for the target CPU) either.


      Many laptops have 3D cards that are 3D in name mostly. They check the box by having _some_ 3D support, but missing some extension which is needed to actually run what you want.

      You can't swap out the video card on the laptop.

      This could be the niche.

    2. Re:Missing from the FAQs.. by Chyeld · · Score: 1

      Consider that many linux users do not have full power drivers for their video card.

      Consider that creating a software rendering engine which can be put in place of DirectX means that's one less barrier to Linux gaming.

      Consider one of the goals of the company is to release linux compatable games for other developers.

      Seems like the point is "Hey! Look at us! We can make your game work in Linux with little effort! Why not contract with us to make your game Linux compatable and we'll deliver the geek market to your door!"

      Doesn't it?

    3. Re:Missing from the FAQs.. by SnprBoB86 · · Score: 1

      More important than everything other repliers to you have listed,

      THE BEST reason to have a "fast" Direct3D emulator in software is because the REF driver is slow.

      The REF (or "Reference") driver for Direct3D is a purely software implementation of D3D that supports every possible feature even if your 3D card doesn't. This allows people to debug, or experience things that they just wouldn't have been able to do in hardware; and its 50 times faster than the REF driver.

      This, of course, assumes that the software renderer is feature complete, which it isn't. Maybe someday soon this will be an acceptable REF driver replacement.

      --
      http://brandonbloom.name
    4. Re:Missing from the FAQs.. by rg3 · · Score: 1

      Many recent laptops (like the one I bought some days ago) come with SiS cards that have *zero* support for 3D graphics, AFAIK.

    5. Re:Missing from the FAQs.. by lscotte · · Score: 1

      Are you familiar with cedega (formerly winex) from transgaming? wine allows you to run windows binaries under linux. cedega/winex extends this with directx support specifically for windows games. Seems like this is just a natural extension of the emulation layer to me to allow a larger number of windows games to run under cedega.

      --
      This post is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 License.
    6. Re:Missing from the FAQs.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For development purposes, you want to test if it's an issue with the hardware/drivers or your code, you can use a software renderer which are much slower but should produce accurate results.

    7. Re:Missing from the FAQs.. by runderwo · · Score: 1

      Many 3D cards, even ones currently being sold at the low end, do not have shader support or a programmable pipeline at all.

    8. Re:Missing from the FAQs.. by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      I would think it is real useful for low end desktops in general.

      I know the computer my parents baught 2Ghzish celeron was slower at Americas Army than my 800Mhz Celeron

      I had a high end GeForce 2 they had a low end Geforce 4.

      I bet that the extra speed could have gone some distance to close the distance between them with good software.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
  13. Good but limited... by dogmatixpsych · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sure, it *may* be faster than other software rendering solutions, but it still only approaches (that's such a broad term) the performance of low-end cards: "can rival the performance of low end hardware 3D graphics solutions in some cases." Sounds pretty iffy to me. It'll be good in some cases; however, as it is, I doubt it will replace dedicated hardware cards for many people (it's not like low-end cards are very expensive. You can find decent (albeit older) graphics cards for under $20.

    I'm not saying this technology isn't useful, it just has limited application in its current state.

    1. Re:Good but limited... by ponds · · Score: 1

      A one-winged fly is a spin

    2. Re:Good but limited... by jafiwam · · Score: 1

      I agree it doesn't seem all that great for games, not encompassing a market that is of any size. (Wants a game to do 3d, but doesnt have a card that supports even basic GTA3 quality graphics.)

      But, what if the target market was software rendering of 3d stuff for the OS. Like the "3d interface" for the new version of Windows for example. Imagine how valuable having a decent fallback for lower end systems without fancy video cards (i.e. like most big brands) would be to Microsoft?

      Windows installs with the 3d interface would just look for a capable card, and failing to find one, use this thing instead.

      A 3d desktop doesn't need 65 fps after all, if it looks good static (in comparison to games dynamic display) it might be a pretty good thing....

    3. Re:Good but limited... by Slashcrunch · · Score: 1

      Hmm, what about laptops and other hardware where the video card cannot be upgraded? I know I've got that problem now (make it faster!!!) and I've had it before.

    4. Re:Good but limited... by dogmatixpsych · · Score: 1

      That is a good point. I realized that same thing just after I had posted my comment.

    5. Re:Good but limited... by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 1

      There is definitely a market for this. Yes, it's small, but even a tiny fraction of the low-end graphics industry is huge for a company like TransGaming. SwiftShader certainly can't replace -current- integrated graphics solutions, but it can defeat older dedicated hardware, mainly in features, but sometimes also in performance. And it's software, so it's an easy upgrade, and when bundled with a game it can be very cheap.

      You're definitely right that it has limited application now. But we're only just getting started with this technology and with the next generation of CPUs it might become a real alternative for integrated graphics. It's not going to be the ultimate way to play the newest blockbuster game, but I do see great potential for market growth.

  14. Pixomatic by Acy+James+Stapp · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This looks like it is meant to compete with Pixomatic from RAD Game Tools. ( http://www.radgametools.com/default.htm ) Perhaps it's cheaper or faster, but pixomatic is not overly pricy and I trust Mike Abrash *now at RAD) has a little bit of experience writing fast renderers :)

    --
    -- Too lazy to get a lower UID.
  15. Re:A Blow to OpenGL? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With no free licensing for personal and/or academic use available, I don't see that happening.

    It's not intended for personal and/or academic use. It's yet another implementation of certain standards and presumably it works better than others on _certain_ platforms. Get it ?

  16. Load balancing? by iammaxus · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Can it split the rendering load between your GPU and your CPU if your GPU is capable of some of these features? I couldn't find an answer on their website.

    1. Re:Load balancing? by Musc · · Score: 3, Informative

      No. They don't make use of the GPU at all. That, in fact, is the whole point: a software only renderer.

      --
      Hamsters are at least as feathery as penguins. HamLix
  17. Xiaolin Wu? by Grendel+Drago · · Score: 1
    --
    Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
  18. possible deathknell for lowend non-integrated gfx by l33t-gu3lph1t3 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Believe it or not, but integrated graphics hold the lion's share of the PC graphics market. Nvidia and Ati are both pretty far behind Intel in terms of install base. This could be very bad for the other vendors: the main reason for the popularity of integrated graphics is cost - Intel itself only holds about a $5 premium on gfx-enabled chipsets over discrete chipsets.

    What happens when Microsoft licenses this tech and integrates it into Windows? Suddenly, all anyone needs is a RAMDAC to output framebuffer to VGA, so Intel doesn't need to develop GPUs anymore, and overnight gets a massive performance boost and full DX9 support....

    --
    ------- "From bored to fanboy in 3.8 asian girls" ----------
  19. Missing from the FAQs..Complaints. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The latest Enlightenment is suppose to have a fast "software only" mode. I guess no one sees the point their either.

  20. Hopefully... by rookworm · · Score: 1

    This will allow mixed redering, so that the old 3d card in a given system can do most of the work, and this will just render the things that require modern features. That would be quite useful.

    --
    The toad can't burp - and for some reason can't fart either, so it swells up and eventually explodes. --Anonymous Coward
    1. Re:Hopefully... by TrancePhreak · · Score: 1

      That could actually cause more slowdown than just disabling the features in the first place. As many others have stated, however, this is not what it does. It only replaces, not compliments the video card.

      --

      -]Phreak Out[-
  21. In other news... by TMonks · · Score: 4, Funny

    Earlier this afternoon, the CEO of TransGaming was found on his office floor with two broken knees. Witnesses observed a pickup truck with the word "nVidia" printed on the side leaving the scene.

    --
    I, for one, welcome our new karma-whore sig writing overlords
    1. Re:In other news... by arpk4n3 · · Score: 1

      "Dammit! I told you to change the 'here' to 'on their website'! They wouldn't have known it was us, you incompetent fool!"

  22. This gives me a brilliant idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You could accelerate 3D rendering, but using hardware! I know it sounds crazy, but it just might work. Who do I call to get my idea patented?

  23. So, how about some numbers? by Lendrick · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Anyone have time to, say, download this driver and fire up UT2004 or somesuch and test the framerate using software rendering vs their 3d card (with all other settings being equal)? Of course, this wouldn't be particularly scientific, but it would at least give some idea about how well this thing performs and whether it's useful.

    1. Re:So, how about some numbers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I tried it on my Mac. Things seemed much snappier.

    2. Re:So, how about some numbers? by TrancePhreak · · Score: 1

      UT2004 already has a software rasterizer, you insensitive clod! ;)

      --

      -]Phreak Out[-
  24. Spending my money.... by pl1ght · · Score: 0

    IS this what they have been doing with my MONEY for Cedega???? Instead of releasing updates?? There hasnt been a cedega update (besides for a guild wars hotfix) in fricking 2 months!!

    1. Re:Spending my money.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, the development status reports have been really light the last few months. I can only assume they were working on things for the Cedega 5 release that's coming up.

      Hopefully, anyway.

      Or it just might be that our $5 a month isn't getting that far these days. =)

    2. Re:Spending my money.... by pl1ght · · Score: 0

      Yeah a guild wars update and a steam update, WHOOPPIDY FUCKING DOOO!

  25. Score10 HILARIOUS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that was awesome

  26. Swiftshader in hardware? by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 1

    If this is an optimization, is there any chance of using some of the Swiftshader code to optimize hardware renderers?

    1. Re:Swiftshader in hardware? by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually shaders as used on graphics hardware and the dynamically generated code used by SwiftShader share a lot of resemblance. The biggest difference is that the GPU is designed specifically to run shader code, while to make it run on the CPU we need to translate it to MMX and SSE instructions. The GPU also has many more pipelines and dedicated texture samplers. Other than that there's a convergence in technology as graphics hardware gets more programmable and reuses the same units for different threads (i.e. unified architecture).

      So, to answer your question more directly, I doubt that any of the technology used in SwiftShader can further improve hardware rendering performance. But I do see an evolution in CPU thread parallelism...

  27. Re:possible deathknell for lowend non-integrated g by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No. Not unless you have an uber processor capable of running your game code and all the 3D bits at the same time with decent performance. Current systems when using software rendering are considerably slower than even a crap integrated graphics chipset. Thats not even with any shaders so don't think this would speed anything up.

    What this technology could help with is for people with older 3D accelerator cards which don't support the latest whizbang features or for usage under Linux/whatever where you don't know how to access the accelerator features due to lack of docs. Performance under both cases wouldn't be amazing but it'd be better than nothing.

  28. What I want to know... by deathy_epl+ccs · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...is what demogroup they were before they went commercial, because that's the only crowd I can see with the drive and desire to create something like this. One of my group's coders still gets a stiffy for software rendering, and I know he's not the only demoscener that does.

    1. Re:What I want to know... by KillShill · · Score: 1

      all code is software rendered.

      the processors just happen not to be "central".

      his stiffy is misplaced.

      --
      Science : Proprietary , Knowledge : Open Source
    2. Re:What I want to know... by deathy_epl+ccs · · Score: 1

      Oooooo, that's a good point... I'll be sure to point that out to him next time he's on that kick.

      Although I think his response is likely to be "but not software I wrote."

  29. Great, I suppose by dtfinch · · Score: 2, Informative

    The site is /.'d, so I can't rtfa.

    Swiftshader is based on the sw-shader project, which produced very good quality output very quickly using SoftWire to compile the rasterizers. A lot of other software 3D implementations only optimize the most common cases and fall back on very slow, general purpose rasterizers to do the rest, often using giant switch statements or function pointers in their innermost loops to handle the countless combinations of blending, lighting, and raster options available. Even precompiling them all with a generator script or clever use of macros is infeasable due to the number of combinations, and just one of those will slow any 3D rendering to a crawl, which is the problem that sw-shader solved, by optimizing all cases.

    What's good is that the project is once again under active development, and it's no longer windows-only. The downside is that it's gone commercial. With so few contributors other than the original author, that sort of thing can happen to an OSS project. He put a lot of hard work into it though, writing a substantially complete DirectX 9 replacement based on his library. Transgaming actually had to purchase two projects for this, because sw-shader depends on SoftWire.

    1. Re:Great, I suppose by Yaotzin · · Score: 1
      The site is /.'d, so I can't rtfa.
      Here's a mirror of the links:
      Gamasutra TransGaming
      --
      Error: No error occurred
  30. SwiftShader code originates from... by jjl · · Score: 4, Informative

    SwiftShader code seems to be directly based on SoftWire and swShader, which used to be both SourceForge projects.

    --
    --
    1. Re:SwiftShader code originates from... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
    2. Re:SwiftShader code originates from... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, and these (L)GPL projects now have no future anymore. Well, there's always Transgaming "commercial license". Seems Transgaming has a history of closing up perfectly good open development.

      I would definitely not call Transgaming Free Software, Open Source, or even Linux-friendly.

    3. Re:SwiftShader code originates from... by jjl · · Score: 1

      Thanks! I already wondered if it would be possible somehow to download older stuff from source forge, as the existing release files and CVS access were taken away.

      --
      --
  31. helping OS drivers ... by aposch · · Score: 1

    Open source drivers like nv (NVidia) are 2D only. With this toy you get at least some 3D-functions with such drivers.

    1. Re:helping OS drivers ... by xgamer04 · · Score: 1

      Well, some of the drivers that come with X (x.org/XFree) support 3D, but only for documented cards (I think Intel does this) and older "performance" cards. I believe the newest x.org actually supports (3D) some of the older Radeons.

      --
      When you look at the state of the world, how can you not become a radical, liberal anarchist?
  32. Holy crapsicle! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With my new Quad Xeon 3.6 GHz, this enables me to play solitaire at a staggering 30fps, with only minor drops! Great! ;)

  33. what affect does this have... by steak · · Score: 1

    on fps in WoW or CS:S while in linux land?

  34. Re:possible deathknell for lowend non-integrated g by dominator · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What you're suggesting is that Microsoft might license tech from a company whose main product is a re-implemenation of the Microsoft Windows SDK for *NIX. If this happens, I'll either eat my hat or die of laughter. Oh the irony.

  35. Bottleneck by WilyCoder · · Score: 1

    Games that require advanced shading tend to be CPU bound. If the CPU is your bottleneck, what good is it to give the CPU more work?

  36. Suuuuure... by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

    Like clickthrough rates on Slashdot articles are any higher.

    --
    Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
  37. Faster than... by Mingco · · Score: 2, Funny

    Claiming that it's 50 times faster than some other software renderer is like claiming your racecar is 50 times faster than any other racecar that has no wheels.

    What's the point?

    1. Re:Faster than... by Shadow_139 · · Score: 1

      50 x 0 = 0 ?

  38. Re:possible deathknell for lowend non-integrated g by gr8_phk · · Score: 1
    "Suddenly, all anyone needs is a RAMDAC to output framebuffer to VGA"

    I've been wanting to write an article or blog about that for a while now. With DVI digital you don't even need a DAC, just a bit of hardware to transfer data from RAM to the DVI connector with the right timing. Even better for Intel/AMD is that this provides an excellent use for dual cores. Most software won't use a second core, but you could use it as a GPU substitute by writing something like this. Dual cores for lower cost systems ;-)

  39. Umm, no.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why are you thinking they're CPU-bound? All the shading happens on the graphics card. In fact if you look at the minimum system requirements, most games today require at most 1.5 GHz. Gameplay and AI have changed very little since 5 years ago. If you don't beleive me try playing any game and lowering the resolution and the graphics settings to the minimum, then note the increase in FPS - why would FPS increase so drastically if the game was CPU-bound?

  40. The beginning of "cross platform directx" ? by carlmenezes · · Score: 1

    Isn't this somewhat like how directx started out? Now if this thing can automatically off-load any processing on the built-in GPU and still keep up its performance, then this could be the beginning of cross platform 3D gaming which would mean the beginning of a widespread move to Linux.

    I think we should christen this the Decade of Linux. Things have come very far from where they were in 2000 - Linux is now being shipped on OEM machines. I think its safe to say that by 2010, Linux gaming will be a reality and will be on par with Windows, if not better.

    Add that to things like distros standardizing and striving for compatibility, usability studies being conducted that help in improving the end user's Linux experience and the availability of great development platforms like Eclipse, and you have the components in place.

    So I think these 10 years will mark Linux's rise and will stabilize Linux as a widely accepted operating system and an alternative to Windows. I couldn't be bothered whether it marks Microsoft's fall or not, but I'm sure we will see more widespread Linux adoption.

    As always, never forget the people who started this in the first place. They are the giants on whose shoulders Linux now stands.

    --
    Find a job you like and you will never work a day in your life.
  41. Re:possible deathknell for lowend non-integrated g by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Isn't this tech slower than integrated graphics? It seems that way to me. It's faster than the DX9 reference rasterizer, but that is called a reference rasterizer for a reason. Integrated graphics are designed to be pretty fast.

  42. Already Exists by Shawn+is+an+Asshole · · Score: 1

    If a Linux GUI (ho ho ho) can provide an experience as rich as Aqua or Aero and base it on this software rendering

    Something similar already exists. It's called Enlightenment (DR17).

    Watch the video for a quick demo. There are also decent screenshots, though like with OS X, really don't do it justice.

    Disclaimer: I'm both a OS X and Enlightment user (former KDE).

    --
    "It ain't a war against drugs.it's a war against personal freedom" --Bill Hicks
  43. Get The Point by dazedNconfuzed · · Score: 1

    (Do we REALLY need aliens with realistic fur that whips in the wind as they make their slow approach toward the ground?)

    If high-end graphics can be done entirely in software on a reasonably current machine WITHOUT having to spend hundreds on a separate board, software sales increase significantly.

    Personally, I use a notebook computer - not expandable in the graphics department. Ultraportability has priority over graphics for me. I _would_ like to play recent games, but can't because they're made specifically for XYZ UltraCoolGraphicsSuperCard - which happens to be bigger than my computer. As such, I'm stuck playing Quake III, Oni, and Daikatana - would that these recent games had a kick-butt software renderer that let them run decently on a no-hardware-acceleration graphics card.

    And that's where TransGaming comes in: I am a casual gamer looking to install games onto my computer - and I don't/can't have what is currently considered a "basic 3D card" to play games on. The better the game looks, the more likely I am to buy it (hey, you have your priorities, I have mine) - IF there is a software renderer available to deliver >90% of the Gee Whiz features of a DX9-compliant card, without the card.

    What casual gamers have is a computer of generating images in software and painting them on the screen at 30FPS. Beyond that, the more common 3D hardware available (i.e.: Intel Integrated Graphics) is just too inconsistent and obsolete to bother supporting fully.

    I don't want a 3D card. I have no place to put it on my Sony T-series ultraportable. Give me a kick-butt software renderer and a compatable game. TransGaming is providing the renderer; what are you providing? I'll give TransGaming money for a good renderer coupled with a recent game; I won't give you money for saying "so put up with cheesy graphics already".

    --
    Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
    1. Re:Get The Point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If high-end graphics can be done entirely in software on a reasonably current machine WITHOUT having to spend hundreds on a separate board, software sales increase significantly.

      That's true. But they can't, not even with this package. This package is aimed at casual gaming. i.e. Garage Games and Puppy Games are its intended audience, not Id Software.

      As such, I'm stuck playing Quake III, Oni, and Daikatana - would that these recent games had a kick-butt software renderer that let them run decently on a no-hardware-acceleration graphics card.

      This is not the definition of a "Casual Gamer". The term "Casual Gamer" was invented by the industry to identify people who purchase most Indie games. It's intended to refer to their habits of playing Solitare to pass the time, not Quake 3. This software package will not help "serious" gamers. (side note: "Serious" gamers are defined as people who play games like Quake 3 and Half Life, but not religiously so. People who follow games religiously are "hardcore" gamers.) It would be too slow to run even Quake 3 in software mode, much less Doom 3 or anything else that might use DX9 features.

      This article may help you understand the "Casual Gaming" market better.

  44. Oh, come on! by spun · · Score: 4, Funny

    Pull the other one, it's got bells on. You expect us to believe that the slashdot editors actually edited a submission?

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    1. Re:Oh, come on! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK wait a second here. If this isn't real "news for nerds" then why blame transgaming for submitting it? Blame slashdot editors for picking it.
      Any company with a smidgen of PR savvy wants to get articles on slashdot, even if it means exposing themselves to the complainers and loudmouthed nasties. If they make it through the editorial culling, seems likely the news will be interesting to at least a few people.

  45. Mesa already does this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This has been done at least twice before. NVidia, when they release new drivers, implement new features in software for older hardware (at least they have done so in the past).

    Mesa 3D http://www.mesa3d.org/ has supported vertex and fragment programs since 2003.

  46. What I'd Like To Know by ThePyro · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Can it take advantage of multiple processors?

    For years, some analysts claimed that ordinary processors would eventually obsolete 3D accelerators, because they would be fast enough to handle all of the rendering in software. Since graphics processing can usually make pretty good use of parallelism, then perhaps a package like this along with multiple CPUs is the "wave of the future"?

    Obviously not now... but in 20 years?

    1. Re:What I'd Like To Know by KillShill · · Score: 1

      in 20 years, there may not even be a distinction in processors anymore.

      you would have generic self-configuring processors (think fpga but more advanced) with 1024+ cores per module... more modules = more speed (more heat). dynamically programmable and able to execute any task with extreme optimization without the overhead of asics.

      or maybe not.

      --
      Science : Proprietary , Knowledge : Open Source
    2. Re:What I'd Like To Know by Cylix · · Score: 1

      Back in college...

      I remember my friend telling me about BeOS running on an 8 way Pentium Pro board doing software opengl.

      The tea pots were spinning so damned fast...

      So fast...

      Anyhow, I always wanted to try software quake on an 8 way soft processor.

      --
      "You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
    3. Re:What I'd Like To Know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >you would have generic self-configuring processors (think fpga but more advanced) with 1024+ cores per module... more modules = more speed (more heat). dynamically programmable and able to execute any task with extreme optimization without the overhead of asics.

      Yeah, the same way multi-tools have completely replaced toolboxes full of hand tools. Oh, wait...

    4. Re:What I'd Like To Know by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 1

      At the moment it's single-threaded, but there are definitely plans let it use make use of dual/multi-core technology once it becomes common.

  47. Great work Transgaming ! by RedLaggedTeut · · Score: 1

    I, for one, welcome our pixel shading overlords.

    On the other hand, in Soviet Russia, the pixel is shadowing you.

    Expect a beowolf cluster of SwiftShaders to run the matrix soon.

    --
    I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
  48. But it's hard... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...to shell out $60-$100 for a cheap DX9 video card when you are paying ~$0 per new game. :P

  49. Re:possible deathknell for lowend non-integrated g by Pieroxy · · Score: 1

    You sound like they've never done anything stupid before...

  50. Suggestions? by 100lbHand · · Score: 1

    Any sugguestions as to actual game demos that will work with this? The little render demos that come with this are nice and all, but its preformance with a real world game would be nice.

    --
    "I'm not high, just stupid" --JY
    1. Re:Suggestions? by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 1

      Max Payne, Unreal Tournament 2004, Max Payne 2, and 3DMark2001 SE work very well (sorted from fast to slower).

  51. Slashdotted! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As of 5:30 EST transgaming.com gives no reply to pings and webpage requests.

  52. Intel has DX9 support since 915G/GV chipset by ringm000 · · Score: 1
    ... if I'm not mistaken. They seem to have hardware accelerated PS2.0 and some kind of efficient software VS emulation. Nowhere near 7800GTX of course, but I think it should be strange trying to beat it with some software-only emulation thingie.

    Regarding the lowend non-integrated gpu death: they are already dead. There's no chance of being able to compete with Intel in this area, just because "integrated" means much cheaper production. Shared VRAM, no PCB, even no need for a separate GPU chip! It costs nothing, it sells for nothing, and it works fine. If you don't want modern games or some other complex 3D software, you will be completely satisfied with it.

  53. Confusion by jmorris42 · · Score: 1

    Ok, I read the page and the commentary already posted on /. and I'm still confused.

    1. Who is the target market for this product? It is a software renderer. Might be faster than Mesa but is still going to run like a dog for any real world use. After all, just how many people have flaming P4s or A64s and a 2D only framebuffer? I suspect a Radeon 9200 with the 3d support in x.org would outperform this product.

    2. Since the answer to the first question is almost certainly going to describe a fairly small group, even among the /. crowd, why is this ad for a niche commercial product that only runs on Windows (runs under Cedega doesn't count as it is also a commercial product) on slashdot as an article instead of a paid advertisement?

    --
    Democrat delenda est
    1. Re:Confusion by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 1

      1. Yes, the target market is pretty small when looking at the total graphics industry. But it exists and it's big enough for a company like TransGaming. There are many systems out there (mainly laptops) with powerful processors but graphics chips that don't support for example pixel shaders. SwiftShader is also a fallback for when hardware rendering is unreliable or fails (driver issues, broken DirectX installation, etc). For these situations it can fill the needs without getting thousands of support calls. 2. Slashdot is all about technology isn't it? And from that point of view SwiftShader is ground-breaking. Other high performance software can benefit a lot from dynamic code generation. I'm thinking physics processing, sound and image processing, etc. This is only the beginning.

    2. Re:Confusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmmm....c0d1f1ed? This user id is surprisingly similar to the c0d1f1ed from sourceforge, isn't it?

      Would you by any chance be related to the projects SoftWire and swShader, now part of SwiftShader?

    3. Re:Confusion by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 1

      Yes, I am the author of swShader and SoftWire, and the lead programmer of SwiftShader and SwiftAsm.

  54. Question for the performance nuts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Suppose some number of years down the road, a lot of low-end mass market machines are using multicore processors (so the extra CPU load will be on another processor and won't throttle the game's performance too much). Would you get any kind of real speed boost from the fact that you could draw your textures and data directly from main memory, instead of having to push it over the PCI bus and cache it in graphics memory? Or will the busses be fast enough and memory cheap enough at that point that it won't make a difference? Or does it all depend too much on how this nonsense is coded?

    Obviously it wouldn't make enough of a performance difference that people will start ditching their graphics cards; I'm just curious if it really buys them anything on texture-intensive games.

    ~fin

  55. mod UP! by shaitand · · Score: 1

    Where are mod points when you need them. That was pretty insightful.

  56. Can I run Doom3 on this thing? by ChickenFan · · Score: 1

    I wonder how many frames/hour I can get!?

    1. Re:Can I run Doom3 on this thing? by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There is no OpenGL interface yet, but I expect that Doom 3 will be nearly playable on a powerful CPU at low detail. Even shadows might be possible, because stenciling requires very little operations per pixel and MMX allows to process up to eight pixels in parallel.

      Anyway, it's not our immediate goal to support the latest games. The people playing Doom 3 really know they need a powerful graphics card. But once it becomes feasible to run it on the CPU, we'll let you know...

  57. Link? by sik0fewl · · Score: 1

    Link please?

    --
    I remember when legal used to mean lawful, now it means some kind of loophole. - Leo Kessler
  58. Why This is Significant and Matters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Transgaming is due to release Cedega 5.0 for Linux in about 19 days.
    With SwiftShader supported in Cedega, Transgaming can essentially claim to support the 'perfect' play of any DirectX 9 and below game from the Windows platform on Linux. This is a very huge step and fulfills rumors that the new Cedega 5.0 would have exactly this... 'playable support for *all* Windows games'. Now the problem is... it just won't run that fast. But it PLAYS.

  59. Too much focus on graphics (rant ahead) by Trejkaz · · Score: 1

    I used to be a Cedega subscriber. I was creating my own builds from CVS for a while using a poached Gentoo ebuild, and eventually signed up so that I could vote and try to swing things away from that "must port Counter-Strike and EverQuest and nothing else" mindset that the Cedega community have.

    Graphically, the thing is great. Games like Diablo 2 ran remarkably smoothly in most cases. But the game Oni, for instance, which was one of the more simple games that you would expect to run, won't run under Cedega with sound turned on, thanks to Cedega's shit support for DirectSound3D.

    However, the way it works in the Cedega community, is that votes go on the games, not on the bugs. Never mind how many other games are affected by this one bug, if they're all separate games, each of which a few people like, the votes get spread out and games like EverQuest get all the attention. Hell, I saw them putting attention on Doom 3, when there was a week (A WEEK!) left until the native Linux release.

    Reasons like this were what made me stop paying for the subscription... I'm sure they'll figure out the Right Way of handling voting at some point in the future (please, take some cues from Bugzilla and basically any other open source bug tracking, okay?) but until then, I'll be content with dual booting to play my Windows games even though it means turning off my torrents..

    Anyway, it's comforting to see that they're still focusing entirely on the graphics end, while the sound subsystem silently rots away.

    --
    Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
    1. Re:Too much focus on graphics (rant ahead) by crusher-1 · · Score: 1


      "Reasons like this were what made me stop paying for the subscription... I'm sure they'll figure out the Right Way of handling voting at some point in the future (please, take some cues from Bugzilla and basically any other open source bug tracking, okay?) but until then, I'll be content with dual booting to play my Windows games even though it means turning off my torrents.."

      I also cancelled my TransGaming account. I agree with your frustrations. I don't understand some of the reasoning they come up with at TransGaming.
      Yes you're right. I can get Diablo running no problem and the same holds true for FallOut Tactics - most of my success with Cedega/WineX has been with "sprite" based games. Over half of the "older" games (ranging for 1 year old to 5 or more years) wont run.

      Sure one might argue - 5 bucks a month is no big deal to keep your account access going. But, for what point? Fact be told I have better success getting plain ol' Wine to run a wider variety of games (with or without a gui - point to play is a fairly nice front end). Also consider a couple of other things. The howto's and online docs/etc.. that can be found are much more plentiful and useful for Wine than the TransGaming forums, so much so I wrote the wine mini-howto for the unofficial SuSe FAQ.

      After paying 5 bucks a month for the last 3 or so years I finally got feed up with the level of progress (or lack thereof) when I could simply dl the latest Wine packages and have better success - pity!

  60. swShader? by ravyne · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I wonder if this is possibly a take off of an open source project called swShader (its on source forge.) I've had some contact with the author of swShader, Nicholas Cappens(spelling likely incorrect), we discussed the unique approach he has taken to polygon filling/texturing. swShader also has DX 8 & 9 interfaces and a dll which could stand in to interface with regular DirectX games. While its an interesting piece of work, I hate to see when an OSS project, particularly one with one primary author(the owner if you will) gets taken and then commercialized becuae I'm sure he'll never see a penny, despite having written most of it. I don't know that thats the case here or not, but I hope it isn't. I guess its part of the deal when you open it up to OSS but it would still stink. Then again, maybe he's commercialized it himself or got hired to produce it, which I would be all for.

    1. Re:swShader? by ravyne · · Score: 1

      Now that I've gotten through to the site, it actually does appear that Transgaming has either liscensed swShader and/or hired Nicholas Cappens(again, spelling) to do the product as the source forge site for swShader now forwards to the swiftShader page. Congratulations Nicholas! In the brief time we exchanged messages It became readily appearant that you are indeed very good at what you are doing with sw(ift)Shader. Best of luck!

    2. Re:swShader? by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 1

      It's Nicolas Capens ;) Just to confirm: yes, SwiftShader is based on swShader (and SwiftAsm is based on SoftWire). Both open-source projects got licensed by TransGaming and I started working for them. Never regretted it. TransGaming's founder is a great visionary and he gave me the optimal opportunity to turn swShader into a commercial quality product. Much of it has been rewritten and we've reached goals we hardly could imagine several months ago. And this is really only the beginning...

    3. Re:swShader? by ravyne · · Score: 1

      Sorry about the name, I was posting too hastily to run a quick check :) One thing that immediately jumps to my mind is this-- I'm a digipen student, and every year a lot of games get made in the labs. The students do their best, but with limited time and often being very new to Direct3D or openGL there ends up being a lot of incompatibility issues with various hardware. This would easily solve the problem, if not for a primary renderer(since most student games don't need bleeding edge performance, particularly in the earlier, less knowlegable years) at least as a known-working backup. Personally, of my Digipen portfolio, two of the games I participated in have known issues with certain video hardware. So, when I send it off with my resume to a potential employer I have no idea whether it will work well or not. Ideally I'd like them to run well on all hardware, but given the constraints I stated above thats often not possible, but swiftShader could solve that. When will it be available for licensing? Is there any chance of an educational or even student liscense that could help my fellow digipeners? Even a liscense restricted to classwork and portfolio use would be a godsend.

    4. Re:swShader? by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 1

      It's probably best to just e-mail sales@transgaming.com for making such inquiries.

  61. Better software acceleration? Who cares? by NetRAVEN5000 · · Score: 1

    I'm confused. . . I thought TransGaming only made stuff for emulating Windows games on other systems. But it looks from the preview like this is a Windows program. . . why would someone who already can run Windows games want better software acceleration? Any card made in the past 4-5 years costing more than $70 or so supports hardware acceleration, and anyone with a computer older than 4-5 years old probably can't play games that require vertex and pixel shading, anyways.

  62. Re:possible deathknell for lowend non-integrated g by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

    You should start laughing while you're eating. Just in case.

    --
    I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
  63. Serious doubts by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

    You have to wonder though, why the runtime code generation? That takes cycles to figure out what to do; and then if the environment changes, the code has to be rebuilt again. Run-time code generation looks like this to me:

      - Decide what to do
      - Build the pipeline
      - Execute the pipeline
      - Decide if the pipeline is still valid
      - If true, execute the pipeline
      - If false, go back to 0

    Without it it looks like this:

      - Decide what to do
      - Execute those decisions
      - Go back to 0

    Also, runtime code generation is a bad solution; it means you have to be open to runtime code injection attacks if any exist that don't require advanced knowledge of address space. This isn't typically a problem, except now you have a program that expects known addresses to be code; a slight bump might give you a way to say "write X into your generated code, wherever that is."

    I'm going to stitch together a small proof-of-concept, a make-believe "bytecode interpreter" that uses a different method of "pipelining" not requiring RCE. Let's see if I can find another solution.

    1. Re:Serious doubts by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 1

      The key here is that the generated 'pipelines' are cached. A game typically uses only a couple hundred render states/shaders. So the code is only generated when it's not yet/any more in the cache.

  64. Maybe something, but not all by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Vertex shaders, sure. In fact, DirectX does just that. If you lack hardware vertex shaders, DirectX will happily do them in software. It's not as fast, of course, since it hits your CPU, but it works. However other things can't be done, at least not yeat. Pixel shaders would be an example. They are later in the chain, after the graphics card has done it's work, even if it's a simple one. So that either requires doing it all in software, or sending data from the graphics card back to the CPU, doing more work, then back to the graphics card.

    With AGP it's right out. PCIe makes it a remote possibility, the bus would work, but it's still not a real solution. It would end up being too slow to matter. The thing is you can get a cheap 3d card that WILL do it, though slow (any Radeon 9200 or above), but faster than software.

    So I don't know about killer app. Certianly not for Windows. As it stands, DirectX does this to the extent that it's useful. Things that can be done in software to a reasonable speed will be, if necessary. Things that can't are simply excluded. It's probably the best compramise from a consumer standpoint.

  65. back in the day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    ...when pci was vogue, and the pentium was king(in X86 land) video cards had VRAM, and you were lucky to have more than 1MEG. After all 1024x768x24bit is about ~3.8 meg so these werent even capable of full SVGA at 24bit. But if you were lucky they worked ok at 640x480@24bit = ~921k ... ;) Even a 386 supported linear frame buffers in protected mode. This was used in games such as Zone66, which was incredibly fast, and required you to boot into the game, where it ran exclusively in protected mode, an optimization not available today under XP, where we have "update available" or "disk is low on space" popping up constantly even when playing a full screen game like doom3.

    anyway, my point (sorry). IIRC the whole point of VRam was that it was dual ported, ie the arrangement of gates/junctions that make up the memory cell allowed the memory to be accessed both by the PCI bus or DMA controller, and the DAC's on the video card _at_ _the_ _same_ _time_ !11

    It would be interesting to understand how the current state of the art compares. I believe DDR3 wraps the clock wire around twice to double the clock speed or some trick (remember all those RamBus patient battles?). Have we come in a cycle , like with parallel/serial buses used in disk storage, with RAM not having architectural embelishments in the latest itterations but rather running faster due to a more basic stripped down design? Or does sophistication increase monotonically? Nah, dont think so d:D

  66. Re:Better software acceleration? Who cares? by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Not all systems come with good hardware rendering. And even though an upgrade is relatively cheap, not everyone is willing to pay that price for casual gaming, tons of people don't know/care how to do a graphics card upgrade, and many systems simply can't be upgraded (laptops in particular). TransGaming is all about portability. Whether from Windows to Linux, Mac to PlayStation, hardware to software... I can hardly imagine a better company for releasing a product like SwiftShader.

  67. Where's the source? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So here's something I don't get: Both projects used to be LGPLed, but now there are no source files for those old versions anywhere... does this mean a project can effectively be un-open sourced?

    1. Re:Where's the source? by the_greywolf · · Score: 1

      http://transgaming.org/cvs/

      the source doesn't include the stuff that handles support for CD-verification software and other "anti-piracy" shit. it's also crippled in other ways, but the bulk of it is there.

      --
      grey wolf
      LET FORTRAN DIE!
  68. Re:SwiftShader code originates from... MIRROR THIS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Someone should mirror these files! I just checked the license included in a few tar files and zip files, and it is the LGPL (in accordance with what is stated on the project pages). So anybody is allowed to copy and redistribute them.

    It's a pity that TransGaming has decided to remove these files. If someone has the resources to mirror them (I don't) or to re-open the SourceForge project pages, then this should be done as soon as possible!

  69. Clearpsi by Lotharus · · Score: 1

    Crystal Pepsi was pretty cool.. although to my taste buds, it tasted a little more like Diet than regular.. Maybe they had to resort different means of flavoring that wouldn't color the syrup? *shrug*

  70. Hardware Emulation by CarpetShark · · Score: 1

    This is one thing I'd like to see more of on Linux. It has lots of cool device drivers for things like webcams and firewire cards and advanced audio cards, joysticks, etc. But if you want to write a program that supports all those things, then you generally have to spend money on the hardware. If we want lots of developers to be able to contribute, and to develop apps as hardware becomes consumer-priced, then emulation would be a real step in the right direction.

  71. Re:Better software acceleration? Who cares? by NetRAVEN5000 · · Score: 1
    Right, but I doubt the "casual gamer" cares that much about shading. Plus, even my old Voodoo3 had hardware shading. And you're going to have to pay for SwiftShader anyway, aren't you? Or buy a subscription, like you have to for Cedega?

    I think I'd rather get a Geforce2 for $20 than pay $5 a month (I believe that's what the Cedega subscription costs) - and I doubt that a casual gamer is going to be willing to pay more for software emulation than a hardware upgrade. Upgrading your video card isn't hard - check the system's specs when you're buying the card to make sure it'll work, then pull the old one out and put the new one in.

    And some laptops do allow you to upgrade the graphics card (from what I've heard, you can do this with many Dells - although these graphics cards are hard to find in stores but you might have luck on eBay or something).

  72. Re:Better software acceleration? Who cares? by c0d1f1ed · · Score: 1

    While the casual gamer might not care much about shader effects itself, if the application uses it and his hardware doesn't support it he can't run it. That he does care about. And nowadays even simple kid's games start to use shaders, just because it's easier to develop. A Voodoo 3 does not support pixel shaders, neither does a Geforce 2.

    SwiftShader won't need a subsription as far as I know. Game developers buy a license for a particular game and distribute a copy of SwiftShader with it. The people buying the game probably won't see any difference in price, or even a lower price, because SwiftShader is intended to reduce support costs for game companies. Anyway I don't know the details. If you're interested please constact sales@transgaming.com.