Myware and Spyware

smooth wombat writes "A new startup aims to provide you with a piece of software that stores all of your sufing habits. Where you go, how long you stay, how many hours online you spend surfing, etc. Why? So you can then offer that information to companies in exchange for something of value. Seth Goldstein's company is in the early testing stages of a service called Root Vaults which right now only works with Firefox. You can choose whether to send this data to your Root Vault, some other service, or just store it on your computer. There are a few restrictions on the use of this data. From the article: 'Any company that uses this data must agree to four basic principles: the data is the property of the user, it can be moved from one service or device to another at will, it can be exchanged for something of value, and the user has the right to know who is using it and how.'"

Comments

Is this really new ?

[2.7182]

I recall a company in Texas announcing this in 2003. Don't recall the name though.

Re:Is this really new ?

[Feminist-Mom]

I recall it too. It had some silly name like Trackall or something, but I guess back then AOL and others were just doing it themselves and selling it.

Re:Is this really new ?

[timjdot]

I even paid a marketing person in 1999 to study an idea like this called "BuyMyInfo". Seems like a good idea.

How much

[Anonymous Coward]

is the information of a single person really worth? I don't see how the time and effort would be worth it to install this program and then sell the data.

Re:How much

[croddy]

it's like a focus group. the purpose is not to gain statistically significant demographic information, but rather to understand why and how people exhibit certain behaviors.

Re:How much

[Anonymous Coward]

I disagree. Learning about human behavoir is not why 99% of companies pay for this kind of data. It's because they need statistically significant data to help them in directing their advertising and capital in order to make more money.

Re:How much

[Firehed]

Say everyone gets ten bucks. Personally, I wouldn't even consider doing it for less than fifty a month (after the whole rootkit incident, you think they'd have picked a better name), but that's aside the point. If they're able to use that $10 and watch what sites I go to and what I tend to buy online, they can target advertising with superb accuracy. I'd say it's well worth their money, especially considering my Newegg budget. Of course, if it fails to factor in my Adblock Plus and filterset.g updater (which translates to me never seeing ANY sort of adverts anywhere; ads adblock themselves just by being a part of known advertising domains or having certain keywords in the location or filename), it doesn't do them a whole lot of good. In any case, the people who are using Firefox and good adblocking extensions aren't nearly as likely to give out their viewing habits. But say that 1 in 100 people who are using IE signs up for the $10 in exchange for surfing habits. Call that two million people, give or take (probably give), just in the US. If they can go use that $20M worth of info to selectively target two hundred million internet users, it'll probably come back in tenfold pretty quickly. eBusiness isn't getting any smaller.

Re:How much

[Jugalator]

I agree... Per person it sounds like very hard for a company to get something useful out of it.
You won't necessarily represent the average behavior at all.

Re:How much

[koweja]

Well, look at the bonus cards you can get a supermarkets. You sign up and they track your purchases in exchange for you getting a discount worth a couple of dollars every time you go there.

Re:How much

[DocOmega]

This isn't so much as a discount for people using the loyalty cards as it is an avoidance of the larger percent markup if you use the card. Say something at the store costs $5. They increase the markup so that it now sells for $7. If you use your card, you get it for the real price of $5. If you don't, then you pay $7. You aren't getting a $2 discount; you are avoiding paying a $2 surcharge by using your card. This allows the store to appear to be selling to you at a discount for sharing your personal data. This is a win-win situation for the supermarket. They either get marketing data to sell, or an extra percent in cash, all the while looking like they are offering you a good sale price.

Something of value?

[Aladrin]

Something of value? A penny is of value. And they can require you amass 10,000 pennies to cash out your value. This clause prevents nothing.

Besides which... Companies can already obtain this information without the user knowing, why would they pay?

Re:Something of value?

[CaptSnuffy]

Companies can already obtain this information without the user knowing, why would they pay? There's some interesting irony at work here with regards to the whole p2p issue. Kind of makes it seem like the RIAA/MPAA are fighting an element of human nature.

Re:Something of value?

[Aladrin]

Ah, but notice I said 'without the user knowing' instead of 'without paying'. Companies have to pay SOMEONE to get that data for them, even if it's just an in-house programmer.

In this case, I think it's more important that the user is unaware of the information leak. Surfing habits that have knowingly stored and sold are going to be VERY different from those collected without the user knowing. Now -that- is human nature. We shouldn't CARE what these companies know we did, but we're not going to sell them information that we are ashamed of. (Or a great many other reasons, I'm sure.)

I'm not saying the 'something for nothing' syndrome isn't valid, too, but it isn't as applicable here.

Re:Something of value?

[mmalove]

Herein lies the catch though - they can take it for free because it has no value yet. Give consumers the right and ability to sell it, and suddenly the act of taking the information unknowingly from a user becomes stealing! Brilliant, I hope this takes off:)

Re:Something of value?

[Anonymous Coward]

>Besides which... Companies can already obtain this information without the user knowing, why would they pay?

Actually I read this as a sneaky way to prove to lawmakers that personal data has value. This value would be the basis for class action lawsuits against spyware companies that steal user information without the user's knowledge, and it would eventually lead to stricter laws about information theft.

right to know?

[engagebot]

"it can be exchanged for something of value, and the user has the right to know who is using it and how."

we'll see how this works. i think if they're *buying* the info from you (aka you recieve value for it), i'm not sure how much say you have over what they do with it.

Re:right to know?

[Anonymous Coward]

And we all know what happens when people buy music/movies/games; they all end up pirated on the internet.

Re:right to know?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why sell it to them? Do what they do and 'LICENSE' it.

Re:right to know?

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems to me that they are going for the licensing bit music companies are using sort to speak. They are paying to use it but they don't own it in the end. Personally, i don't think much good can come out of this but I guess we will see. (Who's to say what my privacy is worth but yourself. To me, it's worth more then "something of value" since that value is probably very very low (info on one person is useless, you need alot of people in order for it to begin gaining some use)

Re:right to know?

[AdmiralWeirdbeard]

not if the "sale" license is written like a software or commercial music sale license. then they would only have use of the info as long as they used it in a manner agreeable to us.
of course, the mere mention that WE might do something like this will probably get me flamed, but given that B.S. is legal, we might as well get some use out of it too.

Re:right to know?

[Lord_Dweomer]

You're joking, but people license information like that all the time.

For example, if you were to do a direct mail advertising campaign, and needed a list of people to send it to, companies would be more than happy to get you that information. However they will not sell it to you, they will only lease it. Which seems kinda pointless, but it gives them legal ground to sue your ass if you use it after the lease period.

Its kind of like creating an artificial reason to have recurring charges.

Re:right to know?

[Jumperalex]

Like any other contract, it can stipulate anything it wants (so long as it is legal). So if the contract says you can have my info but you have to tell me what you are doing with it (which is different than your second statement which implies control over what they do with it) then that is what the contract says.

If "they" don't like it they don't have to enter into that contract. For that matter if I DID want to dictate what they do with it I can put that in the contract and, again, they do have to follow it if they agree.

Your statement, beyond the inconsistency of knowing vs dictating, implies a misunderstanding of contract law. Put simply, if the record companies can tell me what I can and can't do with my music once I buy it (technically license it), I can tell the marketing droids what they can and can't do with my personal information once they buy (technically license) it. It is up to them if they want to be bound by that agreement.

That being said, you are right that the more restrictions there are on the use of the data the less valuable it will be. And the more options we have for what uses we allow/disallow the more complex the system is for the buyers which makes the whole system less valuable and more costly to ensure compliance.

On another note: certainly one option that should be considered is the ability to provide the data with no personally identifiable data and to MAKE SURE it can't be abused to find that data. I have to believe there is some system that exists to provide send the data and get credit for it w/out actually tieing it to an account with the person's personal data. The Swiss / Caymen bankers have to have something like that :)

Re:right to know?

[Lehk228]

it's not so much using after the period as Reselling to thier other potential customers at half their price.

Wow...not a bad idea

[vishbar]

This is, surprisingly, A Good Thing. Sure it's spyware, but you can CHOOSE to put it on your computer and actually get something back. That is, of course, assuming that it does what it says it does.

fp?

Re:Wow...not a bad idea

[gcw1]

As far as I'm concerned spyware is never a good thing. Especially the ones that claim you have control.

Re:Wow...not a bad idea

[IcyNeko]

Like these clever coders won't have a way to pull that data off whether or not you actually sign the agreement to sell...

Great Idea...sort of

[jasongetsdown]

So make you info available on your own terms. Great idea, but why barter with each individual when you can still buy their info wholesale. Data wholesalers aren't just going to go away, and this still doesn't keep others from tracking you without your permission.

Re:Great Idea...sort of

[c_forq]

Maybe companies could use this against competitors that use wholesalers? Launch a smear add campaign showing how they value customers while their wholesale-using competitor is abusing them? Then get away with charging a higher price for being The Good Guy(TM).

Depends on the PRize

[Alex P Keaton in da]

What is this thing of value? If they offer me something that I really want, I would consider it, on my work machine. No way I would let anyone monitor my home habits however. What could monitoring me at work hurt? All they would see is slashdot and various news sites....

Re:Depends on the PRize

[frinkacheese]

What exactly do you do at home, behind clsoed doors, when nobody is looking?

Re:Depends on the PRize

[whitehatlurker]

What exactly do you do at home, behind clsoed doors, when nobody is looking?

I correct spelling and grammar on slashdot. It keeps me occupied. And you?

Re:Depends on the PRize

[Anonymous Coward]

One should not start a sentence with "And" (or "But").

Re:Depends on the PRize

[Anonymous Coward]

One should not start a sentence with "And" (or "But").
That is not a real rule, just something they teach in elementary school. However, the GP's "And you?" is not a sentence at all, since it has no verb.

Re:Depends on the PRize

[gnud]

However, few sane people would argue that it could be misunderstood, given the context.

Re:Depends on the PRize

[cerberusss]

I correct spelling and grammar on slashdot. It keeps me occupied. And you?

While you're correcting spelling and grammar, I'm dancing the Tango with your girlfriend :D

Terms of Service

[Mean Variance]

Any company that uses this data must agree to four basic principles: the data is the property of the user, it can be moved from one service or device to another at will, it can be exchanged for something of value, and the user has the right to know who is using it and how.

And some company that agrees to this (wink, wink) decides to violate those terms. Then what?

I'll keep my browsing to myself. I can see this being part of the default install from the IS department at a corporation near you.

Re:Terms of Service

[aztracker1]

Funny, I was thinking about the same thing.. it could be used by control-freak parents who would probably never actually check the logs.. and by businesses in the same manner.

Cheat the system

[Arthur B.]

Remembers me those "get paid to surf" adbars... eventually people will find a way to cheat the system to make more money, making the stats useless.

Re:Cheat the system

[Al Dimond]

Yup. This is, in general, a problem that happens whenever server software asks a bunch of client computers for information and depends on the returned results to be honest. Only this time, it doesn't seem that there would be any particular reward for, say, visiting advertising sites a particular number of times or anything like that. As long as they build their scheme such that there's no reward for browsing for more than a few hours a day they can probably avoid shenanigans aimed simply at making money. And since I really doubt that too many people are going to go out of their way to mess up this company's statistics with no profit involved, they could rest easy.

Re:Cheat the system

[SilverspurG]

If the stats are worthless then we need to add HTTP PING counters. That will fix everything.

Re:Cheat the system

[Arthur B.]

Yeah, they transplanted me yours, I didn't think you'd miss it. Who the hell are you anyway?

Just Wait...

[Quantum Skyline]

I can predict a remote exploit in which advertisers and others will use to get your information for free.

Frequent Shopping Card @ Grocery Store

[dada21]

This reminds me of the frequent shopping card you can use at the grocery store. I don't have one of those (I actually just use one of my parent's phone numbers for the discounts).

I think I'd be happy to trade my browsing patterns in exchange for something. I already don't mind advertisements on websites that I like (and if they have ads that seem interesting to me, I will always not only click the ads but try to make a purchase if I like the product/price.). I don't mind cookies or any of that stuff. I know it is there, and I don't really care what they do with my "information" as I don't have anything to lose in the lifestyle I live.

I actually support these "invasios of privacy" as they help bring me a better browsing experience when people know what I am looking for and are out there supporting (through AdSense or direct advertising) the content creators I go to every day. I subscribe to /. but I still click links that interest me -- do you? I've made purchases through /. and told the advertiser it was because of slashdot that I found them and that I support them.

I don't support spyware though, unless I know I can get something out of it. I'd give up all my browsing experience in exchange for a little residual return -- maybe if I knew what ad clicks earned the site, or if I knew that I had an effect on what advertisers would offer me.

My big hope for AdSense this year is that Google goes beyond contextual targetting, but also finds a way for users to "vote" certain ads up and down based on their identity. I don't need to see some ads, but I'll be happy to support advertisers who know what I want and support the sites I visit.

Re:Frequent Shopping Card @ Grocery Store

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually support these "invasios of privacy" as they help bring me a better browsing experience

Wow. I can't stand spyware. I hate having to be the person to spend hours of my time ridding someone's computer of it. Have you ever seen a computer that has run unprotected for a day? It makes the computer unusable. Slow, pop-ups every two seconds, taskbar filled with dogs and blinking lightbulbs and whatever - it drives me nuts! I cannot see how that "betters my online experience" when I can't even get online without a reformat.

Re:Frequent Shopping Card @ Grocery Store

[voice_of_all_reason]

Don't fill out your parents' phone number. Make up a clearly bogus one, it's much more satisfying.

My Waldbaums card is the proud property of OSCAR GROUCH at 123 SEASAME STREET. Phone number? (123) 456-7890, of course.

Re:Frequent Shopping Card @ Grocery Store

[pHatidic]

I remember a story about a guy who was accused of arson because he had purchased the same type of firestarter on his frequent shopper card that was used to burn down his home. Guy just comes home from work one day and the cops show up and take him to jail where he stays for several months. He would have been in there for a lot of years if someone else hadn't eventually admitted to it.

Re:Frequent Shopping Card @ Grocery Store

[dada21]

The difference is spyware that tries to hide itself, and myware which you opt-in on without some fraudulent click-through backdoor.

Honestly, I don't get spyware -- ever. Neither does almost anyone in my family except for my 14 year old sister who won't stop browsing stupidly. Of course, I just ghost her hard drive and reinstall it about once a month whenever I'm over there.

I'll accept trading my browsing habits with a reputable company. I run the Google Toolbar and would give them MORE of my information as I have so far not been screwed by Google. I wouldn't install software willy-nilly without knowing what I get in exchange for it.

Re:Frequent Shopping Card @ Grocery Store

[AceCaseOR]

I believe I've heard the same story, but it was a credit card, not a frequent shopper card.

Has anyone seen anything on Snopes about this?

Re:Frequent Shopping Card @ Grocery Store

[Chalex]

I think I'd be happy to trade my browsing patterns in exchange for something.

But you already DO! You know those sale prices they have that you can't get without the card? That's what you get.

Re:Frequent Shopping Card @ Grocery Store

[sammy baby]

When I read the phone number, I couldn't help singing it. Only there aren't enough digits in a standard US phone number to sing, "One two three fouuuur five, six seven eight niiiine ten, eleven twelve."

Re:Frequent Shopping Card @ Grocery Store

[the chao goes mu]

Singing? 867-5309.

Re:Frequent Shopping Card @ Grocery Store

[CAPSLOCK2000]

I already don't mind advertisements on websites that I like (and if they have ads that seem interesting to me, I will always not only click the ads but try to make a purchase if I like the product/price.).

Either one of us has been smoking to much pot, and I've only had 10 grams this week...

Re:Frequent Shopping Card @ Grocery Store

[just_another_sean]

"One two three fouuuur five, six seven eight niiiine ten, eleven twelve."

I think it goes more like this:

"One two three fouuuur five, six seven eight niiiine ten, eleven twel-el-el-el-elve!" (note the exclamation point is very important).

Ah thanks man, your post just brought back such a flood of childhood memories... :-)

Re:Frequent Shopping Card @ Grocery Store

[sconeu]

At which point, the chef spills his "12 Chocolate Banana Cream Pies!"

For those of you too young to remember the first season of Sesame Street, they had a clumsy chef instead of the Count.

Re:Frequent Shopping Card @ Grocery Store

[uglylaughingman]

I love this idea, but the temptation to use (555)867-5309 is just wayyyy too much...

Re:Frequent Shopping Card @ Grocery Store

[MacJedi]

"One two three fouuuur five, six seven eight niiiine ten, eleven twelve."

Oh, man that was a great song, and by the Pointer Sisters too, I believe. You can watch it here.

Re:Frequent Shopping Card @ Grocery Store

[Lord_Dweomer]

Even better...800-588-2300 EMPIRE!!!! (Sorry, Chicago only joke)

Re:Frequent Shopping Card @ Grocery Store

[paradizelost]

And i have adblock and several other things installed in firefox so i don't even have to see slashdots ads...

Re:Frequent Shopping Card @ Grocery Store

[sammy baby]

"One two three fouuuur five, six seven eight niiiine ten, eleven twel-el-el-el-elve!" (note the exclamation point is very important).
Only on the last verse. ;)

Re:Frequent Shopping Card @ Grocery Store

[DrEldarion]

Yes! Anyone who has EVER watched TV in Chicago will be able to finish it when you say "588" in the right tone. My consumer education teacher actually used this as an example of great marketing.

Re:Frequent Shopping Card @ Grocery Store

[2short]

"Don't fill out your parents' phone number. Make up a clearly bogus one, it's much more satisfying."

In fact, from the grocery stores point of view, a bogus one is probably just as good as the real one, and preferable to your parents number. So if your motivation is to "stick it to the man" or something like that, you're failing. If you just think it's fun to have it say OSCAR GROUCH, no problem. For the grocery store, the valuable data is being able to predict demand for certain products based on sales of other products. To do that, when you buy product X, they need to identify you as the same guy that bought product Y last week. They don't care what your name is, and in most cases, don't even track it.

Personally, I've got nothing particular against my grocery store; if collecting that data helps them out a bit, what the heck. I gave them a bogus name and the right address, so I would know if they sold my name (which the person taking the form said they wouldn't, but she didn't seem like the type to know). So far, they send me an occasional flyer, but no third parties.

Re:Frequent Shopping Card @ Grocery Store

[the chao goes mu]

Nope. We get those ads on the east coast too.
Also try "Call USA-1000, Jun Rhee means might for right!"

Re:Frequent Shopping Card @ Grocery Store

[just_another_sean]

Ah yes... That's right. I wonder if I can find an mp3 of that somewhere? It's going to be in my head all day. :)

I suspect a complete non-starter.

[Control Group]

What value is there in my personal data? How important is highly-specific tracking data on one person? The value of marketing data, in my understanding, is in being able to match marketing to potentially profitable demographics. As such, personal data is highly valuable in volume, but I doubt the value of any individual's information. My grocery store is willing to give me a couple bucks in discounts every couple weeks to track my purchasing habits. At a guess, I'd say it would amount to maybe ~$100/yr if I took them up on it.

But that's a long way from actually paying me money. And even if real cash were involved, how many people are going to trust the system enough and go to the effort of proactively doing this for the prospect of an extra $100/yr?

My guess is, not enough people to make the marketing data harvested worth the money or effort. And that's not even considering that companies are more than capable of getting most of this information already at no cost...

But I could be way off base, or missing something.

Re:I suspect a complete non-starter.

[Billosaur]

And even if real cash were involved, how many people are going to trust the system enough and go to the effort of proactively doing this for the prospect of an extra $100/yr?

Every broke college student with student loans and credit card bills. Heck, they'll find a way to have more than one profile so they can rake in the dough.

Re:I suspect a complete non-starter.

[ShibaInu]

While one individual's data might not be worth much, the browsing habits of thousands of people could be very valuable. How often to users click on ad links? Do you click on Google's sponsor links? Do you visit sites that advertise more then you click on word of mouth sites?

It seems to me that this kind of information would be valuable to a company thinking about advertising on the net.

Re:I suspect a complete non-starter.

[brunes69]

My grocery store is willing to give me a couple bucks in discounts every couple weeks to track my purchasing habits. At a guess, I'd say it would amount to maybe ~$100/yr if I took them up on it.

It's more valuble than you realize.

Just look at all the loyalty programs, which are all in essence the same thing as this proposal. I know for instance, with my grocery store loyalty program, I earn enough points every year to get two free round-trip airline flights, each of which is worth around 600 bucks.

Re:I suspect a complete non-starter.

[Control Group]

Wow

I want in on your grocery store loyalty program. If mine offered that kind of incentive, I'd actually be willing to trade my info for it. As it stands, my store indicates on every receipt how much I would have saved if I had their card. I haven't tracked it carefully, but I've never seen a total higher than $10 (and that was including a BOGO offer on a 1/2-gallon ice cream buy), and generally see in the vicinity of $2 (these numbers on ~$80/trip).

I'm sure I could arrange for more by trying to time purchases to when things were discounted...but I can't stand poring over weekly circulars to find out. I just go to check things off my grocery list.

Re:I suspect a complete non-starter.

[gbjbaanb]

You're not married with kids and a huge weekly shopping bill then? Have you not seen people load up a shopping trolley so its practically overflowing, with bags hung off the side? Think how much they get back.
If you also get loyalty rewards on your fuel purchases, then those little bits you and I get back add up over time.

Believe me, you *never* say 'no thanks' when the cashier offers to take £5 off your bill.

Re:I suspect a complete non-starter.

[TubeSteak]

You can write anything on those 'loyalty' cards and nobody checks.

make up a name, address, zip code and phone number.
If you're feeling cheecky, use your local town hall's address & phone number.

they really don't care if the information is tied directly to you, they just want the aggregate shopping information.

The dumbest thing ever, is that some supermarkets give you two key fobs and two cards. I hand them out to friends.

BTW - My mom is an amazing shopper. She saves the receipts to show me and she regularly saves ~50% using a loyalty card + coupons. It makes me seriously question just how high the markup is on groceries.

Re:I suspect a complete non-starter.

[Control Group]

Having cashiered in a grocery store for a few years, yes - I've seen my share of determined women hauling two (occasionally three!) packed-to-the-rafters shopping carts around the store. And coming from a family of five, three of whom were strapping young men with appetites to match, I did my share of the cart corralling in that sort of situation.

So you're entirely right, it will add up to real savings for high-volume shoppers. But the tracking of your online behavior doesn't scale as well, I think, which is why I used my example. The mom pushing around the carts is actually generating data for her whole family; any individual being tracked on a PC is only generating data for him or herself. I suspect, then, that the "rewards" will be more in line with what I see on my grocery bill for myself and my fiancee than it is in line with my mom's grocery bill when I was a wee sprout.

Re:I suspect a complete non-starter.

[Yartrebo]

Actually, I do. When there's a company I don't like that I see advertising, I'll right click and "open in a new tab". When I'm done browsing I'll close all those windows in one fell swoop. It's about a dollar a pop for the pricier links.

Re:I suspect a complete non-starter.

[mpfife]

Oh, I seriously have to disagree. Each raindrop doesn't think it's responsibile for the flood either.

I used to write web plugins a number of years back. One of those companies (name removed - but odds are 2 out of 3 that you have it installed on your machine right now) had to do discovery of some of the hardware to see if it could even run (video capabilities, 2d and 3d capabilities, sound, etc). Though they were reputable and never sold that information, the developers that we were working with at that company said they could make far more money just selling the information about the average internet-connected computers configuration to marketers and consulting companies than they did from their core business. In fact, they were constantly being offered money for it. These guys were smart and knew that if they sold that info, it could destroy their rep (can you say RealAudio) They used it solely internally so they could target capabilities and new features; but that information would have been worth millions. Witness the eleventy-million 'free' browsing toolbars. Guess how they keep the lights on?

In the real world of commercial products, in order to secure funding to build something you need to know if it will return someone's investment (aka: 'sell a real thing'). So you need to know who might buy it, how much they'd pay, how many people would buy it, etc. In order to know your target audience - you must do research and research costs real money. Don't underestimate the lengths companies will go to get this sort of info.

This guy is more likely to make a killing that not - if he can do it right.

Re:I suspect a complete non-starter.

[Yartrebo]

Markups vary a lot from store to store and from product to produce. The markup on cereal (manufacturer + retailer) is about 1,000%. The markup on milk is very small, at any store. Big stores will nail you harder for staples and give better discounts for more elastic products, mom and pop stores are the opposite (amazingly, they undercut large stores by a healthy margin for some highly inelastic stuff like bolts and machine screws).

It's very rare for a retailer to lose money on a sale, and the goods that are heavily discounted by manufacturers generally have small production budgets and large marketing budgets, like cold cereal and pricey pasta sauces.

Re:I suspect a complete non-starter.

[Zerth]

For the grocery store, not so much.

Most, if not all, coupons come out of the mfg side. They, if anyone, are usually the ones doing the gouging.

Well, unless the store is Walmart and the product is pickles:)

Re:I suspect a complete non-starter.

[Syberghost]

There is already precedent for this; Upromise has tie-ins with the major supermarkets where data from your "loyalty-card" is used by corporations such as Coca-Cola to donate money into your children's college funds.

This model says your data isn't worth very much money, although this depends on what you buy. In the end the market will decide what the value is.

Re:I suspect a complete non-starter.

[leifb]

But I could be way off base, or missing something.

How about the implicit assumption that the user owns his/her own data, and the implications for anyone who's using that data without permission?

I agree that selling your browsing habits probably isn't going to make you rich, but the four conditions of use suggest that you might be able to use this system to block people from spying on you.

Especially if you can demand that an abusive entity provide you with an audit and paper trail proving that they're not using any of the data you licensed under those conditions.

Re:I suspect a complete non-starter.

[brunes69]

Coupons are just a way companies use to sell their products at two price points simultaniously, thus giving them maximum profit margin.

Read this, it's a bit long, but it is very enlightening.

So it's Spyware...

[Basecamp88]

...but you agree to it in exchange for targetted advertising. And the companies who will review your surfing habits may or may not offer you a good deal which seems to be this company's definition of "something of value"

$$$=Good

[stavromueller]

Well, if the price is right, I wouldn't object to using a service like this. Sounds like a good use of the spyware concept.

Its worth a free ipod

[ad0gg]

Send your browsing habits in and [b]complete a few easy offers[/b] and you can have a free ipod!!!

5th provision

[jasongetsdown]

I'd like a 5th provision to the agreement. The data will not be linked to my identity. I don't mind providing anonymous stats but I want at least a little privacy.

Re:5th provision

[Lord_Dweomer]

"I'd like a 5th provision to the agreement. The data will not be linked to my identity. I don't mind providing anonymous stats but I want at least a little privacy."

No offense, but you're trying to have your cake and eat it to. The assumption is...you are selling them this information and saying "yes, these are MY habits" and would be compensated for the loss of privacy.

What you're suggesting would never be feasible because it simply isn't worth it to a company to pay you for anonymous information.

Re:5th provision

[Lehk228]

not correct, aggregate info is much more valuable and more interesting than single data points

a single data point might tell you that fat american guys like tofu, veggie burgers and play football, aggregate data will correct this and tell you that most fat american guys like beer and watch football. thus you are better off with HDTV and Beer ads on your football info website than you are with Organic food and sporting gear.

Re:5th provision

[Lord_Dweomer]

Yes, more data in this case is better than less. But that doesn't address my point. My point was...it wouldn't make sense for a company to just pay you for your anonymous data versus paying you for data with your personal information in it.

With that personal information, they can target you directly and have a better chance of properly targeting ads to you. In addition, they can sell your info to people looking for mailing lists, etc.

I'm sorry, but as someone in advertising who deals with this on a daily basis, what you said has no relation to my previous point.

Google is all over this market.

[gasmonso]

They're going to have a tough time competing with the vast amounts of data that Google is collecting on everyone and has been collecting for some time.

http://religiousfreaks.com/

Make it up

[matt me]

We all know the web isn't the "click here for free mony [sic]" place pop-ups have led us to believe. In deed putting adverts on your personal website, sending free ipod links, selling spam emails, google referrals, beanz, whatever you don't earn money like this. But anyway, why can't we just make up some data and then send it?

Value of a new lead

[Anonymous Coward]

A penny is of value

Except we're all worth a hell of a lot more than that as a prospective, qualified lead. Depending on the product/service being sold, a new lead can go from $25 to several hundred dollars (higher end, more detailed data can go even higher).

I'd expect no less than $50 per vendor, to be split at some level with the information broker. Perhaps 25% to the customer from every lead, though it's getting close to "not worth my time" at $10-$15 per lead and will dillute their data with mostly lower-end leads.

Now if we can somehow work the credit agencies into this mix. They're making billions by selling your information without your permission (oh sure, you agree to release it with each vendor that reports you to the bureaus). Add to that the expense they add when they maintain incorrect information or allow their poorly secured system to be abused by identity thieves.

It's the new AllAdvantage.com!

[sulli]

I bet people set up PC surfbot farms just to get paid until their VC runs out.

Re:It's the new AllAdvantage.com!

[bmalia]

I actually got a $20 check from AllAdvantage once. I used to send out spam ICQ messages to people to signup so i could get refferal points too. Man, that was back when NetZero was free.

Who owns the information?

[erroneus]

I really wonder who owns the information being brokered. It leads me to a lot of questions... some not related to this topic specifically though.

One question I ask myself is if I can copyright my personal data. And when I see the information being misused, can I then sue for copyright infringement?

Re:Who owns the information?

[31415926535897]

One question I ask myself is if I can copyright my personal data. And when I see the information being misused, can I then sue for copyright infringement?

That's a really good idea, but I am pretty sure that your personal data would be classified as fact and therefore not "copyrightable." Although, watch for the lawsuits against MLB and the MLBPA for the licensing of player statistics. If the MLB wins, then I think you have a good case for copyrighting your personal data.

Re:Who owns the information?

[EmagGeek]

Maps are representation of Fact. Dictionaries are representation of fact. Almanacs... encyclopedias... owner's manuals... All are publishings of fact, yet all are copyrighted...

Re:Who owns the information?

[Quarters]

The facts are not copyrighted, it's the presentation of the facts that are under copyright.

Almost all classical music is within the public domain. That doesn't mean I can go out and start broadcasting or charging admission to hear Beethoven's 9th off of a CD I just purchased at Sam Goody. The music is copyright free but the performance by the orchestra that recorded the CD is copyrightable. If I want a truly free version of the music I have to either buy a royalty free version of it or hire my own orchestra to perform it.

Re:Who owns the information?

[xiphoris]

The application of copyright to "facts" is largely set by precedent in Feist Publications v. Rural Telephone Service.

It was decided in the case that facts themselves cannot be copyrightable, but some sort of collection, if novel, can be. From the article:

It is a long-standing principle of United States copyright law that "information" is not copyrightable, O'Connor notes, but "collections" of information can be. Rural claimed a collection copyright in its directory. The court clarified that the intent of copyright law was not, as claimed by Rural and some lower courts, to reward the efforts of persons collecting information, but rather "to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts" (U.S. Const. 1.8.8), that is, to encourage creative expression.

Since facts are purely copied from the world around us, O'Connor concludes, "the sine qua non of copyright is originality". However, the standard for creativity is extremely low. It need not be novel, rather it only needs to possess a "spark" or "minimal degree" of creativity to be protected by copyright.

n regard to collections of facts, O'Connor states that copyright can only apply to the creative aspects of collection: the creative choice of what data to include or exclude, the order and style in which the information is presented, etc., but not on the information itself.

With respect to this precedent I hardly see how anyone could claim that factual statistics about players should be subject copyright. But, hey, law does seem to follow big business interests in the US.

Re:Who owns the information?

[DRJlaw]

One question I ask myself is if I can copyright my personal data. And when I see the information being misused, can I then sue for copyright infringement?

That's a good question, since I haven't seen cases where individuals offered to sell their own personal data "packet". You need to ask yourself whether your personal data is expressive content, or merely a collection of facts. If you lean toward the latter, you need to ask yourself whether the way in which you select or present the facts is expressive, or merely a catch all collection of everything excluding your infrequent visits to sites that teach the beauty of the human form to budding artists. If you lean toward the latter again, it's relatively clear that you're out of luck. If you lean toward the former, you can only sue if someone makes an almost exact copy of your personal data, rather than mining the underlying facts into their own database.

You're asking a question that is dangerously similar to the baseball statistics claim that was posted on the front page ~3 days ago. If you thought that baseball statistics were a free for all, then why shouldn't your personal data be a free for all by those not covered by existing statutory obligations against data marketing?

Fortunately, you have something that the MLB/baseball players do not -- some degree of privacy that shields information that marketers might value. Baseball stats are inarguably public, whether they are property or not. Your personal data is a hybrid, with a lot depending on who you tell what details to and under what conditions.

You do not need copyright to protect your personal data -- and it can't really do so unless you're the one assembling the personal data. Instead, you can use contract law to protect your personal data. Sell the data under the terms of the contract, require resale of the data under similar terms (or, by an organization that sells the data under terms that you can accept), and sue for breach of contract, rather than copyright infringement.

The business model is probably a pipe dream because unless the data is unique, there are less expensive ways to collect data either in aggregate or as a demographic slice. Nevertheless, you could in theory protect your own personal data. In practice, and what you may really be after in view of your interest in copyright, you need to contact your legislators and demand better statutory personal data protections (such as, although I am not endorsing them, the European Directives).

Re:Who owns the information?

[drinkypoo]

It's entirely legal to copy the torque specs for head bolts out of the factory service manual and share that information. It's not legal just to fax the page to someone. Ditto for maps. You can read a map and tell someone where a street goes, and even put that information someplace for other people - but you can't copy part of the map for them. Not too complicated...

Re:Who owns the information?

[EmagGeek]

" The facts are not copyrighted, it's the presentation of the facts that are under copyright."

No shit... that is exactly what I said...

Root Vault

[SuperKendall]

Can you get that in a kit?

Re:Root Vault

[Anonymous Coward]

Go to a music store and buy any CD published by Sony.

How much is it worth?

[MMC Monster]

My guess is that personal information on things like browsing habits is pretty cheap. Only in the aggregate (10s of thousands) is it worth anything. I can't imagine anyone paying cash for one particular person's browser history.

Unless, of course, it included passwords and bank account details. I wonder how much I can sell my neighbor's discarded bank statements for?

(:-) for the smiley impaired.)

Incoming!

[meringuoid]

A perl script to automatically surf pages on a spare machine and fill this thing up with valid-looking but nonetheless phony data, in 5... 4... 3...

Re:Incoming!

[Billosaur]

Yessssssssssss!!!!! Got an old HP sitting at home with nothing to do... Hehehe...

Re:Incoming!

[ZachPruckowski]

A perl script to automatically surf pages on a spare machine and fill this thing up with valid-looking but nonetheless phony data, in 5... 4... 3...

Even better: Get poor people in foreign countries hooked up to cheap windoze boxes, and have them surf at high speed with tabs 8 hours a day.

It's like being a Nielsen household...

[PornMaster]

It's just like being a Nielsen household, but being able to choose afterwards to participate, instead of having to be selected beforehand.

Your Tivo's know what you watch for a while now.

The biggest concern I have is the potential for unwanted exposure of the data, via worm or "hacker".

It was in Slashdot just this morning!

[Anonymous Coward]

www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/13657303. htm

A few stories down is one about George W. wanting Google's search records so he can keep porn away from the kiddies.

Anyone who thinks he is anonymous on the internet is poorly informed.

Anyway, you're right. Google has this totally nailed. Anyone else has an uphill battle.

Value is in the aggregate numbers not individuals

[xoip]

Market research has little value if the sample size is not large enough. So basically this guy is aggregating a bunch of people...pooling the data which has huge value then splitting the proceeds...great move if he can pull it off but just how many people are willing to hand over private info for a couple of bucks.
Last focus group I attended paid me $100.00 and lunch for an hour of my time and my opinion on politics of the day. I doubt the payout would be anywhere near that in this case.

MyHome

[drakethegreat]

Why not create the next product in the line up and name it MyHome. They can setup hidden cameras in people's houses which send information and video to companies who wish to pay for it so they can target more ads and find more ways for me to send my hard earned funds on stuff that doesn't matter.

Sure, buddy

[14erCleaner]

And for an extra fee, I suppose you want to take videos in my bedroom too.

No thanks, Google is already monitoring my browsing habits. I wouldn't want to make them mad.

Re:Sure, buddy

[SilverspurG]

Read what else Mr. Goldstein is involved in by Googling. His business ventures are clearly at odds with any real effort to safeguard users.

Is this the same fellow who teaches at CMU? Looking at the Google pages, if it's all the same gentlemen, he has about 5 different paychecks. He must be loaded.

Re:Sure, buddy

[Anonymous Coward]

Google is already monitoring my browsing habits.
Why do you let them? Get CustomizeGoogle, and anonymize yourself. Also blocks their ads and stuff.

something of value?

[Anonymous Coward]

Like maybe a court order?

What exactly is this value that you speak of?

[digitaldc]

If you are going to write an article about the value of something, please define EXACTLY what value is.

This article gives no specific examples of what you would receive in exchange for these companies spying on you. All they use are buzzwords like 'something of value' or 'a lower rate or a special deal' which could mean something as lame as 10% off your next purchase.

This fact alone makes me think that it is probably not worth it.

It has value

[GmAz]

You could use it to track what your child does on the internet. Or a company can use it to see where it's employees are surfing to. There's lots of uses for it.

Here are my details.

[Galston]

Name: Mr Joey Joe-Joe Junior Shabidooo
Age: 49
Sex: Female
Address: 1 Main Street
                Townsville
                Local County
Tele: 0123456789

Hobbies and Interests: Internet dating, puppies and morris dancing.

Now give me my money.

Re:Here are my details.

[MikeWasHere05]

We sent it to the address you provided.

;)

Tinfoil-hat Comment

[Stan Vassilev]

"A new startup aims to provide you with a piece of software that stores all of your sufing habits. Where you go, how long you stay, how many hours online you spend surfing, etc. Why?"

Here's few why:

- So it can gain user's trust, but is in fact glorified spyware
- So police has an easy storage to inspect should RIAA/MPAA decide to sue you for visiting pirate torrent trackers, grokster.com or other such activity (hey, you're not anonymous! they, OMG, they got your IP!!)
- So malware has an easy storage to collect user info for it and send it out, instead of collecting it itself.

Company watches you

[Elixon]

I can imagine that my boss installs it on my computer.

Maybe he will find out that I read slashdot too often!

I guess that such as statistics can be more verbose about employee's behavior then some proxy statistics.

A sign of the apocalypse

[pHatidic]

Companies are now willing to pay us to look at porn.

This is stupid

[kadathseeker]

Who would want spyware? I spend all of my time killing it on school pcs (not on Macs...). Are companies really that interested in SpySpace, eBay, Amazon, and pr0n? Because that's what people do. Well, for me replace the first three with /., webcomics, and Wikipedia. I think I saw this on /. somewhere: "Lie, lie, lie / about your age, gender, race / throw a monkey wrench / in their database" Genius.

Hmm...

[kpang]

Just waiting for the first person to secretly install this "myware" on all his coworkers / servers / friends / family's machines and reap a massive profit.

Attention Trust

[Anonymous Coward]

I was just writing about Attention Trust on my blog last week, if you're interested.

http://www.whirlycott.com/phil/2006/01/11/playing- with-attention-trust/

phil.

And what if the company owns your comp? (Empolyer)

[Elixon]

Perfect tools for watching behavior of your emplyees? Isn't it?

"Hello John, I noticed that you read the slashdot and the window with the slashdot page has a focus about 3hours average every day. You are fired." ;-)

AllAdvantage All Over Again...?

[Jace of Fuse!]

Does anybody here remember AllAdvantage.Com? :)

Re:AllAdvantage All Over Again...?

[gallwapa]

I was about to post hte same thing - I remember doing it. All Advantage wasnt a bad deal - infact, I made a VB script that navigated me around the net, I left it on all night, and I got one single $268 check from them. Then they closed, along with the rest of the little banner-pushing bastards

Re:AllAdvantage All Over Again...?

[Jace of Fuse!]

Actually, I made a good number of nice sized checks off of them, and I didn't even have to cheat the system. I found that if just ran it for an hour or two every day I would get my max of 40 hours for the month (which is all they would pay you for) and I preached this to my somewhat large downline (over 1000 members).

I just knew from the onset it was a business model that was going to collapse because I was only doing it for the money. I wasn't paying any attention to the banners and almost never clicked on them. I figured nobody else was either, and in time their advertiser revenue would dry up and they'd fold. They did.

Oh yeah? Does it have any teeth?

[Lead Butthead]

Any company that uses this data must agree to four basic principles

But does it have any teeth? If not it's about as useful as CAN SPAM act.

finally, software for sufis

[Anonymous Coward]

"a piece of software that stores all of your sufing habits."

As a whirling dervish, I've been looking forward to software to keep track of my total number of spins.

Grocery stores do it too.

[tom2275]

The local Albertsons grocery store has the same program. You sign up for one of their "reward cards" and you get discounts off many items. On a typical $200 shopping, I'll save $15. Selling my info is worth it there, why not online?

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[the chao goes mu]

Of course, in the days before discount cards they would have given those discounts to everyone and called them "sales". So, actually, they are giving out fewer discounts than they would have and getting marketing info for free.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[c_forq]

I don't always know if that is true. One of the markets near me that runs one of these still has sales. Sometimes there are additional savings for people with a card, but most of the time on these sales the card adds (or subtracts I guess) nothing. Now there are far more items discounted by a few cents or with special deals with the card, but most of the really good sales are the same price with or without card.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[michaelhood]

In '03 when I moved to socal I happen to shouldersurf the guy in front of my at Ralph's telephone number, as he punched it in to the "club card" thing. Thanks to me, he has a LOT of wine club credit built up over the last 3 years.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[rar]

Of course, in the days before discount cards they would have given those discounts to everyone and called them "sales". So, actually, they are giving out fewer discounts than they would have and getting marketing info for free.

This isn't strictly true: in theory the market info they get from the discount cards allows for tageted advertizing, which increase their sales. A procentage of the extra income goes towards extra sales. => Some of the sales given to people with discount cards wouldn't have been possible if there had not been discount cards.

But then, how big this effect is in practice can probably be discussed...

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[winwar]

"I don't always know if that is true. One of the markets near me that runs one of these still has sales. Sometimes there are additional savings for people with a card, but most of the time on these sales the card adds (or subtracts I guess) nothing."

Sure, some sales might not need the card. But that is an aberration. Generally, if a store has a card, all those in store reductions now require a card where they didn't before. Hence any "savings" with the card are not new savings. You just have to jump through another hoop to get them.

Luckily there are stores that don't require cards and have similiar if not better prices.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[IAmTheDave]

Or coupons. I agree with "the chao goes mu" - I hate that any discount that I used to get as a customer now requires that I allow them to track my purchasing habits. Back off.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[2short]

I don't remember too many "sales" at the grocery store. They certainly tried a lot of ways to trade minor discounts for marketing data though; coupons being the most obvious. I'd guess they're giving out comparitively more discounts these days (and possibly raising prices to cover it) and getting much better marketing data.
I don't worry much about the supermarket discount cards though. They generally don't care if you give them a real name, because mostly they don't even track it. The valuable data is "People who buy product X also buy product Y". The grocery business is famous for it's slim margins; slim meaning like 1%. It is essential to them that hey not have stuff taking up shelf space that isn't selling.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Except they have all the register data, and already know 'if you buy X you buy Y'. There is a website www.nocards.org that will give information about these scams. My favorite example is from that website, regarding how the card changed those discounts.

It's all bs, and that is why I food shop at Target: NO 'loyalty' card.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[the chao goes mu]

You must be young. Throughout the seventies grocery store windows were plastered with garish "sale" poster, as liquor stores still do. Every day there were at least a hundred items on "special offer" at the bigger stores.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[Sporkinum]

I have no idea if the fact that a store tracked with a customer card contributed to the demise of said store. Once they started requiring a card for any sale items I quit shopping there. Too much of a hassle, and I didn't like the tracking. Several other people I know did the same thing.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[TheAmazingRando]

This is why my card belongs to "Leonardo da Vinci" of Italy. I've also heard of exchanges where people periodically mail the cards across the country to each other.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Tesco in the UK (where something like 1 in every 8 pounds are spent) has such a successful club card program that they are the source for marketing info. Forget focus groups & highly paid marketing analysts, want to see how that new packaging is going to work? Just get it on the shelf at a Tesco or two. Want to see what your product's Price-Demand curve really looks like? Set it a deal with Tesco to screw with prices in a few different stores.

Now you can take the stance that Tesco is simply reaping more profits than before due to the value of their club database, but in reality they have reduced the cost of a product getting to you by improvements in efficiency in product marketing. Any widely available reduction in cost in a reasonably free market will result in lower prices.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Or possible live somewhere other than were you do. For example liquor stores in VA are state run and controlled and have no garish sale signs.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[the chao goes mu]

Drive into Maryland (other than Montgomery county). it isn't that far.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[TiggertheMad]

Of course, in the days before discount cards they would have given those discounts to everyone and called them "sales". So, actually, they are giving out fewer discounts than they would have and getting marketing info for free.

True, but you can fight back. For example, Safeway is currently collecting data on one 'Wombat Jones' of South Gnome Alaska. And to further confuse things, I trade these cards around with my friends as often as I can. If you pay cash, they cannot attach the shopping data to any real person, and you still get the discount.

The more they try to gather information about me, the more I feel obligated to isnure that it is incorrect. I don't object to them collecting sales information for stock control purposes, but as soon as they try to figure out who shopper #00023217002 is, I draw the line.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[TastelessGarbage]

Actually, before the discount cards there were "coupons." The cards are far better because of the general lack of quantity restrictions on purchases. In addition, some stores will issue cards without requiring personal information.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[TheJorge]

I have cards for the three major chains where I live. I haven't given a name for any of them. Every time, they give me the plastic card and a form to fill out. The form goes in the trash, and the card works fine without it.

This seems to lend credit to your "People who buy product X also buy product Y" tracking. But is a card really all that necessary? It's not like I'm running into the giant megastore to buy a candy bar. They already can get this data from each of my visits-- how important is it that they can tie subsequent visits together?

Rather than product association, I bet it has a lot to do with spending patterns. If I'm spending $300 every two weeks for a year, then skip a month, it's pretty obvious I went to another store. If there's a trend of a lot of customers jumping ship, they can compare it to recent price increases. It'd be incredibly valuable to know that high milk and bread prices drive people away more quickly than laundry detergent or meats.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[ShadowBlasko]

Finally it is worth something here.

Kroger stores with attached gas stations will give you ten cents per gallon off of your gas purchase (one per) if you purchased over $100 in groceries in the previous month. This is good for one gas purchase per $100 in purchases.

Now that can add up fast, and it is obvious that gas prices are competitive with others in the area. (I also live very close by, and we will fuel multiple cars per purchase, sometimes over $200-300 in gas)

That is saving me REAL money, and I can not detect that grocery prices have risen to compensate, so I am all for it.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[the chao goes mu]

Actually there were both coupons and daily specials, most of which did not require a coupon. My grandmother was a compulsive coupon clipper, my family ignored them.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[the chao goes mu]

Actually those sorts of deals (illegal in some foolish states, such as mine) are good deals for the consumers. Generally the store will sell the gas for cost in order to draw in business for their other retail products. It is essentially free for the store (the gas breaks even and the only cost is the capital costs for the pumps and some small staffing costs) while they drum up additional business more than making up for the small price of running the pumps.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[Anonymous Coward]

I happen to work for Kroger and having worked with the inventory control system running on SCO Openserver, I can tell you that it does not depend on people using Plus cards. If it did, we would have to check the stock on hand before every computerized reordering to compensate for all those people who do not use the Plus card.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[TiggertheMad]

I happen to work for Kroger and having worked with the inventory control system running on SCO Openserver, I can tell you that it does not depend on people using Plus cards. If it did, we would have to check the stock on hand before every computerized reordering to compensate for all those people who do not use the Plus card.

Not for direct inventory control, but I bet you money that either your marketing division or your purchasing division uses the data to find long term trends. In that sense, the card generated data is a large sample set of purchases made, and can be used for proactive inventory control.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[grimharvest]

$15 saved while you're buying $200 worth of stuff? That doesn't seem like much of a savings to me.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[JahToasted]

Another way to look at it is they are penalising those who do not allow them to monitor their shopping behaviour.

Everytime someone buys $185 worth of groceries they are charging a $15 fee to keep their purchasing decisions private. Does this still sound like a good deal?

Maybe it is a good deal to you, but don't think that your grocer is doing you a favour by offering you the choice between paying a fee and allowing them to violate your privacy.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[JahToasted]

You are a lot more optimistic than I am. My take is that we have a whole lot of Pointy Haired office workers whose sole job is to make excel spreadsheets. In order for them to make excel spreadsheets they need lots of numbers. It doesn't matter if these numbers are relevant to anything at all. The more cells on the excel spreadsheet you can fill, the more work it looks like you're doing. Also, it makes it easier to cook the books (or the spreadsheet, as it were) and justify any expenditure you want to make.

All of this marketing data does is justify marketing departments' budgets. Really what possible use is it to know how much ketchup I'm using or that when I buy corn flakes I'm also likely to buy milk?

No, seriously, maybe I'm wrong and there is some valid use for this stuff, in which case, I'd really like to know. I have thought about this a lot, and asked a lot of people and have never gotten an answer that makes sense.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[anocelot]

Myself (and quite a few of my friends) voiced sufficient outrage at this (since their major marketing ploy a few months earlier had been, "No stupid cards") that the manager of our local store went in the back room and dug out another set of "sign up sheets" for the cards. There on the bottom was a box you could check labeled (I'm paraphrasing here), "Give me a frickin' card without me having to sign up for your spam."

I found out later that he was required to have these out in the first place, and I've never seen the ones without the boxes since. My guess is you gave our your data without being "forced" to do so to get the discount rates.

YMMV

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[Lehk228]

they don't care what you buy as a person, the mine the data to look for patterns, such as

40% of people who buy Corn chips buy salsa at the same time
Of that 40% 97% will still buy salsa if it is far away from the corn chips
Of the people who buy corn chips and salsa 75% will buy peanuts if they see them (peanuts are near corn chips or salsa),
only 10% of those people will buy peanuts when they have to go looking for them

conclusion: place a display of high profit margin peanuts near the corn chips or the salsa. (which it is can be determined by linking peanuts to other items associated with corn chips or with salsa in order to determine which of the two has more people near it who will pick up peanuts if the see them, but are unwilling to go looking)


this is why things like pie crusts and filling are often far apart, since most people who bake pies plan to bake a pie before they go shopping, but peanut butter and jelly are near each other, and often near the bread since parents shopping in a hurry are more likely to grab all three (just to be sure they have enough) if they are close together.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[2short]

"But is a card really all that necessary? It's not like I'm running into the giant megastore to buy a candy bar. They already can get this data from each of my visits-- how important is it that they can tie subsequent visits together?"

It's not essential. Walmart pioneered a lot of this sort of thing before discount cards with a datatabase just tying products together by their being in the same shopping cart; i.e. bought by a single customer in a single visit. Still, more data is better.

They no doubt do some of the analysis you suggest, but a lot of that is well known; prices on high volume staples (milk and bread) drive total store volume by getting the customer there, and they'll then buy low frequency items (detergent) at whatever store their already at. You can jerk around the price of detergent quite a bit, but charge an extra quarter for a gallon of milk, and they'll jump ship in droves.

The big deal to do with this data is a type of statistics called Cluster Analysis. Somewhat simplified, you assign all your customers to one of a bunch of types based on what they buy. Then you can create a detailed profile of the mix of customer types at each store.

Let's say someone comes to Safeway with a new kind of cheese-doodle. Safeway could send a case of them to every one of their thousands of stores, and see how they do, but that will cost a huge amount of money. So they'll send a case to each of a few dozen stores, and see not just how they do, but what customer types buy how much. Now they can make very accurate predictions about how much will sell at every one of their stores, so they know to send this one three cases, that one none, etc.

It may not sound like that big a deal, but the economics of the grocery business are kind of extreme. For every dollar that passes through their hands they get a penny or two to run the store and try to squeeze a profit out of. Extended across the number of stores someone like Safeway has, even a slight efficiency improvemnet is a huge amount of money.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[ydra2]

Nobody in this whole thread seems to understand how it works. The grocery store is -not- collecting individually identifyable data to offer you personal discounts. They are collecting aggregate data to maximize profits. And maximizing profits always means that -overall- everybody pays more. They might have your address and phone number, but that's just for selling to other companies, not their primary mission with the discount cards. So they can sell your information to others and thats just more gravy for them.

Here's how it works. You analyze the buying habits and notice that asparagus sells especially well when it's on sale for 25 percent off. That tells you that a lot of people who wouldn't ordinarily buy asparagus do buy it when it's on sale. Looking at the numbers you see that maybe you can adjust the sale price upwards to 10 percent off instead of 25 percent off.

On the other hand you notice that sales of artichokes never seem to go well no matter how much you discount it, possibly because nobody buys artichokes based on the price. People who buy artichokes will pay whatever the price is and people who don't normally buy artichokes won't buy them on sale because they just don't like artichokes. That tells you to stop the artichoke sales and raise the normal price. Artichoke lovers are going to pay up no matter how high it goes.

In either case the net result is to raise the -overall- selling price which maximizes profits.

Let's take another item, some new exotic tropical fruit like that Japanese pear/apple. Nobody buys it at the current (high) price but you notice that after the sale, quite a few come back for more at the normal price. In this case it might generate more sales to lower the normal price slightly so that the new converts will buy more. And you might have a few more sales days with lesser discounts to attract more converts.

If you think the store cards are there to benefit you at the cost of profits to the store you just don't understand capitolism and free markets. The whole purpose of those cards is to identify which products can tolerate increased prices and which might gain market share by sales. But it's definately not to lower the profit margin or benefit any individual.

In -all- cases, the data mining is there to maximize profits which by definition means to get the consumer to pay more money overall than they otherwise would.

So if you think it's a good thing to go ahead and help them do their dirty work against you, then you deserve what you get in return, but I guarantee you, it won't be lower -overall- prices and it won't be less aggressive advertising. They are just trying to trick the consumers into helping them maximize profits and maximizing profits by defintion means getting you to pay more than you otherwise would.

Oh, I noticed that you thought you spotted the flaw in my argument, that they could just use aggregate anonymous sales figures to do the same thing. Well, uhh...yeah but. Now they can track how many non-cardholders come from out of the area and what the preferences of their local regular customers are. This gives them much more granular data. They can adjust prices to whatever the market will bear in individual stores. They can cross-reference people who use their card when visiting out of town relatives and so on. Now they can actually track a little bit of word of mouth.

Finally, if you think any for-profit business will ever knowingly do anything to get less money from you, then you just don't understand the free (or regulated) market. All that haggling for a new or used car isn't done for your benefit, it's done because it maximizes profit and maximizing profit by definition means making everybody pay more in aggregate, than they otherwise would.

Sorry to repeat myself over and over, but too many people think the big corporations just want to keep prices low and help everybody pay less, even when they could maximize profits and make a lot more money. In reality, the big companies will try to make as much money as they can and that always means charging as much as the market will bear in addition to any other cost-cutting measures like outsourcing or supplying from third world countries.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[TheJorge]

I must have left my tinfoil hat somewhere, because this doesn't sound particularly bad.

Of course, if they were to tie my personal information to this data and use it to more aggressively market things to me or sell this data to others who may do so, I would be bothered. But this type of analysis to improve your business seems downright responsible.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[JahToasted]

Is that actually making them buy more though? See if I quickly grab an extra jar of jelly, then realise when I get home that I already have jelly in the cupboard, its not like I'm going to throw it out. It just means that I'll not have to buy jelly for a while.

And how many extra people are you going to get to by something just because its located near something else? What happens if I'm looking for jam, then I see no jam near the jelly out by the peanut butter and assume the store doesn't carry jam? This has actually happened to me and only on subsequent visits did I realise that some products aren't in ther proper sections. So there were a couple of meals I would have used their product, but didn't, simply because it was too hard to find their stuff.

For every sale you gain from moving stuff around, I bet you'd lose a bunch because you have food in confusing areas. But that doesn't appear on their stats because they don't collect information on people who don't buy stuff, just on the stuff people do buy.

Besides that, isn't this a lot of common sense? Put a few cans of spaghetti sauce in the pasta section, because people buying pasta are likely to want spaghetti sauce. I didn't need to spend millions of dollars to figure that out.

Re:Grocery stores do it too.

[Lehk228]

jam and jelly would still be placed together

the point of collecting such a vast amount of data is to strike a balance between additional sales and a confusing layout.

also the displays i was discussing don't go on the shelf but either hang from it or go in a basket near the aisle

And the best part...

[Anonymous Coward]

How long will it be before a piece of spyware or a virus comes along that targets this software and steals the data directly from this app?

Spam Incoming!

[twitter]

A perl script to automatically surf pages on a spare machine and fill this thing up with valid-looking but nonetheless phony data, in 5... 4... 3...

And just how do you think you are going to know about all of those offers of "something of value"? Imagine all of the marketing firms offering you great discounts on XYZ you have no interest in buying. Unless the offer is hard cash only, this service will equal one huge billboard for you to look at.

Spelling

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot should have a capital "S" since it's a name.

Data Theft

[aramel]

So if one were to install this program and any information thereafter was considered my property, would companies not given express permission who gather my data be vulnerable to legal action? I mean, more than just mining my data to sell off to the highest bidder could I take my information, store it on my harddrive/wherever and do nothing with it--with the knowledge that no one else can _legally_ gather information on me, unless I give them permission (ie. Google)?

Re:Data Theft

[gnud]

They could still propably use data you submit to them, like browser headers (including cookies), search queries etc.

more than what you watch

[way2trivial]

what you even 'repeat' for a few seconds..
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9584_22-5154219.html

TiVo said users had watched the skin-baring incident nearly three times more than any other moment during the Super Bowl broadcast, sparking headlines that dramatically publicized the power of the company's longstanding data-gathering practices.

Air Miles

[PhYrE2k]

What do you think airmiles is? They get a copy of what you buy and build a profile on you, then market to you accordingly. It's selling your privacy that you bought a family-pack of condoms last time you went to the local store... Expect lots of interesting ads next time around.

Only Firefox?

[Crazyscottie]

...which right now only works with Firefox.

I find this surprising being that Internet Exploder still controls a huge majority of the browser market share. I could understand a non-profit web developer coding to standards first and then hacking for IE, but for a startup company, I'd think you'd want to get the largest amount of users possible straight from the get-go. Just doesn't seem logical.

Re:Unfortunately

[stinerman]

Yes, this was an obvious troll, but bear with me.

"Open source" only guarantees that you have access to the source, nothing more. Putting spyware in an open source app isn't the smartest idea since anyone could simply take it out and recompile the binary.

Free software will guarantee a bit more than open source. It guarantees several freedoms (of which I won't list here) and possibly in the future protection from DRM.

In short, spyware and open source are not mutually exclusive, but spyware and free software are.

Sems stupid to me.

[autopr0n]

I can't understand how anyone would be comfortable selling this data, but I don't understand how people can sell blood plasma either, so meh.

Re:Sems stupid to me.

[tetabiate]

Some people sell sperm, does that mean they should feel responsible for the (mis)use of their genes ...

Re:Sems stupid to me.

[wizkid]

blood plasma saves lives. That's why people do it. As far as this data is concerned, I don't want mine logged, and anyone with half a brain won't either. But then, I've noticed there's an extremely large number of people with less then half a brain, so...

Re:Sems stupid to me.

[narcc]

blood plasma saves lives. That's why people do it

No, no. Blood plasma saves lives -- which is cool. People do it (donate plasma) because plasma donation centers pay cash for blood plasma. $10 and $25 in Pittsburgh ($35/week). Poor college students and poor PGH residents don't care what happens with their plasma :)

But...

[tetabiate]

storing and selling information on your web browsing habits is illegal, right?
So, what's the deal?

  - P2P revenge: social benefits originating from illegal downloading.

cool

[Britz]

How about making many of those "features" of the new "spyware" mandatory for all spyware?

Sufing

[Axel2001]

Wow, I don't want people to know about my sufing habits. I mean, if I'm sufing, please just leave me the fuck alone. Sufing is my own private right.

Turnabout unfair play?

[Dachannien]

Any company that uses this data must agree to four basic principles: the data is the property of the user, it can be moved from one service or device to another at will, it can be exchanged for something of value, and the user has the right to know who is using it and how.

And what's going to prevent companies from violating those principles? DRM?

With Music

[clinko]

I wrote Clinko Music to do this a few years ago with itunes & Winamp and actively update it.

Give it a try. It's pretty kool.

Free Software

[Yartrebo]

This is one more example of why Free Software is about much more than free beer. Free Software systems could never get away with the kinds of abuses Tivo gets away with, and if the program leaders tried, the program would get quickly forked.

Interesting Idea There...

[ElboRuum]

I mean, really, if a company wants me to reveal my surfing habits, technically speaking, that's private information I control. If they want it, why do they get to get it for free? I mean, that's "my product", right? Why shouldn't you be able to charge for that information?

Personally, I don't care if some wonky ad-dweller wants my surfing habits, but why should the revenue stream go in one direction only?

Hmmm... (this is the sound of one plan hatching)

Re:Unfortunately

[anothy]

depends what you mean by "free software". if you mean software covered by GPL?2, you're wrong. nothing there prevents a program from having DRM or spyware attached (it'd just be removed quickly, by virtue of the benefit of open source, as you noted). stallman is attempting to extend the definition of "open source" via GPL 3 to fit your expectations.

This is worthless

[Anonymous Coward]

As a demographic group this will prove worthless. The dataset is both too small and too skewered towards the geeky/machocistic-side, to give anything of value to would be advertisers. Then they have to use-and spend money for advertising too! Such data is worth too little, can always be manipulated and gamed and is generally too small to bother about.

How many will volunteer for such a system? I predict the starter bounties will be very high, then the system will be gamed and crash through the floor, taking the company with it.

John Doe, General Delivery, my city

[billstewart]

John Doe's a valid name, and General Delivery at least used to be a valid address, though I don't know if the Post Office would still actually give me John Doe's mail without me showing ID. I don't mind them having my city's name, and the zipcode for the downtown post office is close enough for demographic use.

It's still a fair tradeoff for the grocery store - they get to learn whether running a sale on chicken means they should mark up the prices of barbeque sauce or beer or white wine or tortillas, and they give me my discount at the checkout counter, and if they do try to mail me coupons, I don't get them, but it's no big deal (especially since that's usually for a turkey at Thanksgiving, and they've probably noticed by now that this John Doe never buys meat...)

Everyone think EULA!

[eepok]

Ya, but how long until companies include things like this

"... and by clicking "Next," you volunteer all self-collected data on your online habits to Sony Corp. .... "

in thier EULAs?

Re:And what if the company owns your comp? (Empoly

[HTH NE1]

Perfect tools for watching behavior of your employees, isn't it?

Don't think that your bosses don't already have this.

However, as an employee, you aren't privy to exactly how much they know. Something like this could help an employee to track his own net access and better curb his behavior.

Most businesses though won't allow employees to install such monitoring software or hardware for themselves.

Porting to Mac Darwin so they get the award?

[billstewart]

Darwin's going to take care of this business model fairly quickly, and the Invisible Hand Of The Market is going to give it the Invisible Finger.

AFAICT, this is basically offering to let you give the company your surfing information so that spammers can stalk you around the web and target you with coupons for Viagra and Wristwatches instead of untargeted ads. The article says they might sell the ads to mortgage companies - but I already own a home, and therefore the mortgage companies *already* spam me with phone calls and snail mail about refinancing because the home ownership is public record, and if I actually *do* want to refinance, I want to go look at a website that has decent rate comparison information, which is the type of place they already advertise, and I also get more real and fake credit card junk mail than I need. If I want consumer electronics or gamer stuff, I'll go to websites about that that already carry appropriate ads.

Google Ads already tracks more information about me than I want, and I need to remember to log off of Google Gmail now that the Google Search pages remind me that they know who I am if I forget.

Fun for the whole family?

[Anonymous Coward]

You call it, "a family-pack of condoms"?

I think I learned more about your family than I wanted to know.

This works for advertisers

[archipunk]

Having data collected from willing participants rather than believing it was surreptitiously gathered could be a benefit to an advertiser, who might believe they are getting better data.

Since the data is collected by the browser, rather than from a website, it enables more and better data to be collected. In principle, it seems to be like a browser version of a Nielsen meter.

Advertisers and marketers would also be drawn to this model because they are getting information about consumers that is more likely to be useful to them. It's like a direct-mail advertiser getting a list of people who have already bought something by mail.

And the advertisers and marketers would probably prefer to know about that kind of person more than they would about consumers who are more cautious and privacy-minded about their personal data, anyhow.

Re:Unfortunately

[jdigital]

Disclaimer: I work at Root.

Root Vaults currently uses the Open Source firefox extension from attentiontrust. http://attentiontrust.org/

An idea from the red guy on my left shoulder:

[Hosiah]

Take the deal. Download Anchorun, the auto-crawler bot. Leave it running all night. Sell it's results in the morning!

HOLY CRUD IT IS AMAZING!!!

[Com2Kid]

Someone paid attention in Economics class during that lecture about "well defined property rights"!

Information about what I do, collected using my machine, is my property. You pay me for it with something of value.

People aren't pissed that information is being collected, they are pissed that they aren't getting PAID for it!

Use it to litigate spyware

[xixax]

This could also be a way of demonstrating theft of valuable IP when litigating spyware. Would circumenting your browser security to install spyware them also be considered a breach of the DMCA?

Xix.

In case anyone is interested...

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems there is an event for this called VAULTSTOCK that is happening tomorrow in New York City hosted by /ROOT Markets. Here's the link if anyone is interested.

http://www.whizspark.com/es/viewevent.aspx?eid=150 4&icid=0