Japan to Discourage Sale of Old Electronics

devphaeton writes to tell us Engadget is reporting that after April 1st (no this is not an April fools joke) the sale of old electronics in Japan could become much harder. From the article: "It seems that Japan's government revised its "Electrical Appliance and Material Safety Law" back in April 2001, and added a stipulation that items authorized under the country's old law (the "Electrical Appliance and Material Control Law") couldn't be sold anymore, but granted those products a five-year grace period. Well, if you check your convenient wall calendar, you'll see that the five-year period is about to end, which means that as of April 1, pretty much any electronic gear sold before April 1, 2001 can't be legally resold in Japan." The article also mentions that sellers can continue to sell old gear providing they get certification that the items conform to modern safety standards.

Comments

Closing the "analog hole"

[netwiz]

Sounds like a great way to accomplish exactly what bunches of content owners (note I didn't say "producers") have been screaming at Congress about. Seriously, what better way to guarantee obsolescence and quick turnover for technology if you have to rebuy everything every five years because the old tech is straight up illegal? Maybe I read this wrong, but it seems like a huge windfall for consumer electronics manufacturers if/when this goes into effect...

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[netwiz]

Ah, it would seem that in truth, it's only for electrical safety guidelines, kind of like when the UL requires a recall for faulty/dangerous components...

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[Dukael_Mikakis]

Though it might not have been the original intent it might be a nice means of forced consumerism for an economy struggling against a weak Yen.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[MightyMartian]

There must be a serious plague of exploding N64s and MP3 players in Japan.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[Microlith]

This is not a cyclical thing, nor is it "you can never resell electronics."

This is "stuff sold before 2001 can't be resold unless you can prove it meets current saftey standards."

And considering that electrical fires can be a bit of a hazard over there (it's like the 1950s on their electrical sockets) I'm not suprised.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[tcopeland]

> for an economy struggling against a weak Yen.

The Japanese economy is struggling against their own demographics; there are fewer and fewer young people to support more and more older folks. Hard to say how that's going to sort itself out... but seems like a vacuum is opening there that will be filled by someone.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[Anonymous Coward]

it might be a nice means of forced consumerism

It doesn't outlaw 5 year old equipment, it outlaws the resale of equipment made to old safety standards. You can keep using it, pass it on to your grandkids, etc. You just can't sell it. Speaking of which, just how much market do you think there is for 8 year old walkmen in Tech crazy Japan anyway? Worst case, they'll just export the old stuff to Malaysia or some such, just like they do with the old car engines (its cheaper to replace the engine than replace every gasket as the law calls for every 30k miles)

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[BewireNomali]

agreed. and to add to that - the rampant consumerism needed to drive modern economies is often diametrically opposed to classic child-rearing --- in Japan anyway. Fewer young women are looking to marry and start families.

isn't it in japan where they're collecting eggs with the ultimate aim of generating state-children?

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[Pantero Blanco]

I guess this is the logical argument against pornography people have been looking for. There's no new blood, brains, and muscle to build up the nation if all your men are buying RealDolls and your women want to be pop stars instead of mothers.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[roman_mir]

people can't stop infringing on the copyrights and the copyright holders (the correct term) can't stop trying to get the control over the distribution channels. Sounds fair.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[Sen.NullProcPntr]

IANASE (I am not a safety engineer)
No, a recall only happens if a product is found to fail the standards that it was originally tested to.

This is more like; a '69 Mustang doesn't meet todays safety and emissions standards so you can not sell it.

Or to stay in electronics; your antique tube radio would not meet UL standards today so you have to junk it.

No, I did not RTFM so don't know if private sales are exempt or whatever.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[homer_ca]

For such a high-tech country with all that high-priced real estate, why don't they have some decent electrical codes for construction?

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[Tolookah]

No, you wouldn't have to junk the radio, you just can't sell it, unless you could make it meet the standards they put forth five years ago and prove it.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[Sen.NullProcPntr]

No, you wouldn't have to junk the radio, you just can't sell it, unless you could make it meet the standards they put forth five years ago and prove it.

True, but do you know what is involved in getting UL certification?
It's mostly about $$. Here is UL's price list for standards (don't remember the relevant standard numbers for consumer electronics).
That's just what you pay for the documentation the testing is extra.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[Anonymous Coward]

"isn't it in japan where they're collecting eggs with the ultimate aim of generating state-children?"

WTF? Did you forget to put on your tin-foil hat today?

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[rworne]

This is a country where if you run the A/C (really needed in the summer) and run a microwave and TV you will trip the circuit breaker for the ENTIRE HOUSE. This is on pretty modern construction too (1990's). At least the breaker box is indoors and usually right by the front door near the ceiling. Resetting it is common during the summer months.

(I've been there, done that)

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[atokata]

Actually, the Japanese electrical code is superior to the American one. Even though they haven't adopted three-prong outlets, they do indeed ground their outlets. For large 120V appliances, such as air conditioners, you can remove the cover plate of the outlet and wire a seperate ground to a screw connection inside the back box. Further, and surpassing American standards, the Japanese require all in-wall wiring to be UF type electrical cable. Which is really only sensible, given their humid climate. However, the superior insulation of the UF cable would prevent many of the most common types of electrical fires in American homes, which have no such requirement (in my state, at least).

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[Anonymous Coward]

Really, this is no different to what Japan's been doing with its auto industry for the past several decades. It's a brilliant way to keep the economy falsely-buoyant by forcing a perpetual upgrade cycle.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[Fulcrum of Evil]

isn't it in japan where they're collecting eggs with the ultimate aim of generating state-children?

Sounds like the sort of thing Stalin would go for.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[Anonymous Coward]

...it's only for electrical safety guidelines...

Yeeesss, that's they want you to believe.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[really?]

Basically, yes. The difference is, Stalin tried to do it to fast/too soon. The Japanese way is way better; "educate" the people and they will willingly do it. Me thinketh.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[netwiz]

ultimately, what the government doesn't know about can't hurt you. I take the same view in this country: technically, anything, anything I sell to another party must have sales tax submitted to the Powers That Be, and it's the responsibility of the person receiving the money to do so. In practice, nobody does it, unless it's something large, like a car, or house, or land. In this case, it's probably only an issue if you actually tell the government.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[BJH]

That's mainly the apartment owners being cheap bastards - the initial costs are lower if they limit the power usage per apartment.

My old apartment had the same problem; the main breaker would trip if we ran an A/C, microwave and [third item like washing machine, vaccuum cleaner, etc.] at the same time.

When I moved into my new house I made damn sure the builders put in the largest breaker possible without raising my base electricity bill (that's 60amps).

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[Anonymous Coward]

Eh? Bullshit. The fertility rate in Japan is still well above replacement fertility*-- especially considering that the death rate is only likely to fall in the future, not rise. That means Japan's population is still increasing. The problem isn't that there aren't enough young people, it's that there are too many old people compared to the number of young people. This is a result of the fact that the fertility rate fell too much too quickly.

In Japan, the fertility rate has been declining pretty steadily since WWII, IIRC. Incidentally, the last people born before the fertility rate began falling are now getting old; that's why these demographic problems are so severe right now. This is as bad as it's going to get**, although it might stay this bad until a while after fertility rates level off.

In mathematical terms, the problem Japan is having results from the fact that the second derivative of the population has been negative for a long time, not because the first derivative isn't high enough.

*"Replacement fertility" means "people being born at the exact same rate they're dying."
**Unless the fertility rate begins falling even faster, in which case Japan is thoroughly screwed.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[suitepotato]

Except you damn well can sell a 69 Mustang. And register it. And drive it. In CT you get a nice little plate with a picture of a Ford Model T on it and you get certain exemptions and so forth. Which explains all the old unsafe at any speed horribly polluting cars at the weekend cruise nights owned by the upper middle class people who typically vote Democrat and are in favor of those laws against unsafe and polluting cars. As long as they aren't theirs. They also tend to drive huge honkin SUVs during the week. In that attrocious color known as Hunter Green.

What can you do?

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[slashname3]

The Japanese economy is struggling against their own demographics; there are fewer and fewer young people to support more and more older folks. Hard to say how that's going to sort itself out... but seems like a vacuum is opening there that will be filled by someone.

That is where Asimo will come in. They will build robots to take care of all the older folks. And that Aibo dog robot.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[kesuki]

I dunno about that, but honda seems dead set to replace human workers with affordable robots. just don't let the old people find out about it!

Old Glory Insurance: Robot Insurance

As a senior citizen, you're probably aware of the threat robots pose. Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/95/95foldglory.phtml

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[Anonymous Coward]

If only I had some mod points... and maybe an account. It's so true. Though to be honest, it seems even split around here for political alignment in that type of person.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[joe_adk]

Well, you read it completely differently than I did. What I think it says is that you can't SELL anything older than 5 years unless it passes modern safety standards. That doesn't mean that you have to throw everything away after five years. You can still use your old 1942 ABC computer to do your homework. You just can't sell it (the computer, that is, not the homework).

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[Anonymous Coward]

I have no idea how you came up with the assumption that classic/muscle car enthusiasts are hypocrite democrats that also drive SUV's.
Assuming roughly 50% of the US drives an SUV's daily and 50% of the US are Democrats, chances are 25% or everyone you see already fits your jackass hypocrite stereotype with or without being an owner of an old car they use an occasional weekend to hit up a local cruise in.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[Deliveranc3]

Left wing Right wing, not important.

That everyone agrees big, fuel guzzling, small car crushing vehicles shouldn't be on the road (let alone truck excemptions for SUV's in the U.S. [under Bush renewed I might add (Thank you Soccer Mom Vote's for Republicans)]).

No one wants em on the road, no group can be faulted as long as they are ashamed that the act took place and are making actions to rectify the situation.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[6*7]

Aibo has been put down: http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/ 26/1416201&from=rss

But why take care of the elderly with robots? They may be more effectively put to use by the Soylent corporation.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[karmatic]

Hey, I'm 6'10", and I haul a bunch of kids around. I happen to like my big, fuel guzzling, small-car-crushing vechicle, namely because it's one of the only vehicles I fit in. If you don't like people driving bigger vehicles than you, get a bigger vehicle yourself. Why should others have to change their behavior to suit you?

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[Andrzej Sawicki]

Maybe change it to suit your children, whom you are hurting with the pollution? They are not magically protected by driving with you.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[LordSnooty]

Why should others have to change their behavior to suit you?

Because it's not about suiting "you", it's about suiting "the planet", and everyone else you share it with (NB: you are not the centre of the universe)

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[ajs318]

If they really wanted to cut down on electrical fires, then they could start using a sensible mains voltage. At 230V, you need fewer amperes to get the same number of watts; in the UK our outlets {all earthed, individually switched and non-reversible: the live is always on the right as you look into the socket} are good for up to 13A, giving 3kW. Even a 2kW kettle {we also like our tea .....} is only drawing just under 10A. And every plug has a fuse; so no appliance flexible cable has to withstand more current than enough to blow the plug fuse {as opposed to the distribution board fuse}.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[evilviper]

Which explains all the old unsafe at any speed horribly polluting cars at the weekend cruise nights owned by the upper middle class people who typically vote Democrat and are in favor of those laws against unsafe and polluting cars. As long as they aren't theirs. They also tend to drive huge honkin SUVs during the week.

Only an idiot would say that.

First of all, if you've been around the country at all, you'd know that the large majority of in-use pre-80s cars are in RED STATES, where money is scarce, fixing up a "muscle car" is the only hobby in town, and NASCAR reins supreme.

The same is true about SUVs, trucks, etc. Red States are far, far, far more rural, have far less traffic to be concerned with, and have lots of agrculture, construction, and other blue collar jobs, where people have uses for trucks and SUVs. Gasoline is significantly cheaper, and pollution regulations are, well, just about non-existant. Plus there's that whole "snow" thing. I've got dozens of family members and inlaws in the red states, and they don't have a post-1970 car among them. In fact, the men (and kids) all have pick-ups (some old, some new), and the women all have SUVs.

Besides, the fact that a few people, who might be democrats, happen to drive polluting cars, doesn't necessarily make them hypocrits, at all. Hell, if you had to support EVERYTHING a political stands for, just being poor and voting Republican would make you a hypocrit. Being anti-abortion and voting democratic would make you a hypocrit. Being non-white and voting Republican would make you a hypocrit. etc.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[Anonymous Coward]

And the power cable is a good weapon due to the size of the plug...

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[The_Mr_Flibble]

No, just Xboxes

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[salec]

Well, IANAL but why can't I sell it as an house decoration item? With buyer's written confirmation that "Seller has brought to Buyer's attention that item is not a safe, working, electronic device and should not be used as such, but has only decorative value" I think I am in the clear. If buyer powers it up, I should have nothing to do with it.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[slashname3]

But why take care of the elderly with robots? They may be more effectively put to use by the Soylent corporation.

Do you have any idea how tough old people are?

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[trailerparkcassanova]

UL is a private organization and doesn't have the authority to require recalls. That would be the domain of the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[ajs318]

Oh, the Japanese would probably love that ..... visions of some sort of Oriental warrior swinging a kettle lead with a UK plug like a weapon

Seriously, our mains plugs aren't that much bigger than our continental cousins' unfused earthed ones. And the cable exits, via a strain relief, at 90 degrees to the pins; so pulling the cable will never loosen the plug in the socket. I'd suggest you read BS1363. Unfortunately, the BSI expect you to pay to find out how to abide by the Law of the Land and so I can't just provide a link to an online version.

One consequence of the shape of our mains plugs is that they can lie on the floor, pins uppermost, waiting to surprise the unwary and unshod.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[cayenne8]

"No, you wouldn't have to junk the radio, you just can't sell it, unless you could make it meet the standards they put forth five years ago and prove it."

Hmm....now, I wonder if that just means selling it in Japan, or can they sell outside of the country?

If so...I'll be interested in any old McIntosh tube amps they might want to unload over here...for a decent price.

Trouble is, those things are so darned heavy...shipping would be killer.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[crimson30]

If you don't like people driving bigger vehicles than you, get a bigger vehicle yourself.

Perfect logic, if only the people hating on you were doing so simply because they're jealous of the volumetric size of your vehicle.

Reminds me of smokers who get defensive about people that find their habit disgusting and take measure to do something about it. As if it's not that the people don't dislike smoke blown in their face. Oh, no. They do it because they enjoy taking away the smoker's liberty or because they want to personally attack people who are different than them. Right.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[Original Replica]

I wonder if you could resell it as "Art" or some other catagory that wasn't electronics. Maybe an audio memorablia shop?

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[cayenne8]

"Except you damn well can sell a 69 Mustang. And register it. And drive it."

Surely you aren't wanting to destroy a piece of living history are you? Lord, give it a break. It isn't like there are tons of these old 'polluter' cars on the roads these days. Certainly, a few of them driving around on the weekends isn't even making a DENT is the pollution of the atmosphere...or a chief cause of 'global warming'.

Hey, old 110+ year old houses aren't efficient nor insulated properly, and waste energy. Should we bulldoze them to build new, shiny efficiency housing for poor families?

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[WolfZombie]

You had to hit the "Democrat" portion of the sentence and associate it with gas guzzling SUVs. I see more gas guzzling SUVs with "W" stickers on the back than anything else. Maybe it is just where I live, but the Republican SUV owners seem to far outway the Democrat SUV owners. I've coined the term "W Heads" for such vehicles with those stickers... Just seems fitting.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[cayenne8]

"That everyone agrees big, fuel guzzling, small car crushing vehicles shouldn't be on the road..."

You know...I'm not a fan of SUV's...hard to see around them, etc. But, really, I and most people I know don't give a fuck what people choose to drive. This is a free country, and if you want to spend all the $$'s on a truck that costs so much to run (gas), and has lost most of its resell value due to this...have at it.

Personally, I've only owned one car in my life that had more that 2 functional seats, and that was a little european sports car that got 10 mpg on a GOOD day....

But, this "no one wants them on the road" is bunk, most people don't care. Again, like I said, I'm not a fan of them, I wouldn't own one, but, I couldn't care less if someone else wants one. And actually, it is nice to know someone who does, when you need heavy shit moved around....a large heavy smoker will not fit in any car I've ever owned.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[Politburo]

Connecticut is an interesting place. They are generally regarded as liberal, yet they have a Republican governor who has the highest approval of any governor, and a war hawk Democratic senator who may not win re-election. I'd say that it's not safe to make blanket assumptions about the political leanings of the state's population.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[jandrese]

Pulling the faceplate off of the socket to wire up a ground wire (by hand!) sounds like the sort of thing almost nobody would do though.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[jandrese]

Make no mistake, those British plugs are about twice as large as the plugs in most other countries.

The Brits have a ton of safety features on their electrical systems, which is nice but it makes rewiring a house (or just adding a new plug) a very expensive propisition.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds good. Now just show this guy what vehicle is comfortable for someone his height and fits 6+ people without the sardine effect and gets better than 15-20 MPG.

Not everyone who drives an SUV needs one. But not everyone who drives one can just give it up in favor of a Prius, either.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[cayenne8]

"isn't it in japan where they're collecting eggs with the ultimate aim of generating state-children?"

"Sounds like the sort of thing Stalin would go for."

Well, it (generating state children) worked pretty good in the novel, Logan's Run. Helped cure the world's overpopulation problems too....trouble is, you had to turn yourself in for 'sleep' at age 21.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[The Conductor]

Most of that weight is the 6.3 volt filament transformer. If you can have them remove that, and then replace it when you get it, then that will save most of the weight. But if the filament transformer is combined with all the high-voltage windings in one big custom-wound transformer (as found in TV's, monitors, and such) then you will have to find an equivalent (or wind your own!), which will be much harder to do.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[Blind_Io_42]

I'm going to go hug my record collection.

I wonder how this will affect DVDs when the Blu-Ray or HD-DVD finally hits the market.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[digitalunity]

Ah, it would seem that in truth, it's only for electrical safety guidelines, kind of like when the UL requires a recall for faulty/dangerous components To my knowledge, UL does not enforce recalls. They merely release public notices like these bulletins and the respective government agencies, retailers and redistributors take action from there. don't remember the relevant standard numbers for consumer electronics There is not just one, there are many, many standards for different types of electronics. UL 1950 and UL 60950 cover a good percentage of computer and computer-based equipment. Of course, many types of consumer electronics have their own individual standards. You can browse all of UL's standards and the scope of each standard on their website, but the actual text and requirements of the standards is not available online.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[The Conductor]

You get to a point of diminishing returns with that sort of stuff. By piling on safety regulations on the installed wiring, you make installed outlets more expensive, & that creates an incentive to use more extension cords , power strips, and outlet multipliers. I would think it is exceedingly rare for in-house wiring built, to code, even by the standards of the 1970's to start a fire. It's out-of-code modifications by the residents, and all those extension cords, and yes, superannuated appliances, that start all the fires.

If you look at changes to the NEC in the last 30 years, there are a lot of changes that make unsafe mods more difficult (requiring conduit or ground bonding for example) or make it less likely for a DIY'er to make common mistakes (more user-friendly terminal types).

And higher mains voltage is a double-edged sword. It reduces the fire hazard but increases the shock hazard. Pick your poinson...

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[jbbernar]

Please tell me how you know they're "liberals".

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[Politburo]

I'm a liberal, and I'M saying this

You're also an idiot. Congratulations.

Re:Closing the "analog hole"

[jbbernar]

Yes, you've got it exactly right. The Japanese laws regarding used cars had the same intent, to bolster the domestic auto industry.

better summary

[matt4077]

Wow, this summary is actually a lot better than digg's, where it sounded like ANY hardware >5 years old was banned from being sold. With this explanation it actually starts making sense. It's just another overzealous government protecting it's citizen from unrealistic harms. I read speculation earlier that Sony etc. had lobbied for this legislation to ban competition from the second hand market, but it doesn't sound like it any more. Firstly, this is a one-time effect, and secondly five year old stuff doesn't really compete with anything new.

Re:better summary

[rminsk]

...five year old stuff doesn't really compete with anything new.

My 40 year old tube amp will compete with anything modern you can throw at it.

Re:better summary

[alienw]

Uh, dude, it's obvious pandering to the consumer electronics industry. Any electrical appliances made since the 60s are just as safe as anything made today. The requirements haven't changed. The Japanese have a similar law for cars, too. Ostensibly, it's for emissions/fuel economy purposes. In reality, manufacturing a new car causes several times more emissions than using an inefficient one, so it's simply to boost Toyota's bottom line.

Re:better summary

[JanneM]

The requirements haven't changed.

Um, the requirements _have_ changed. Five years ago, in fact; that's why this five year window is closing now. And all it requires is that reatilers (not individuals) do a check on the high-voltage parts to see that they, indeed, are as safe as required today. They can do it themselves, but they do need to take responsibility for having done the check properly.

Re:better summary

[alienw]

Bullshit. I looked at the law, it's purely a regulatory change. There is no actual change in the electrical requirements, just different requirements for certification and labeling and such. The actual rules didn't change, and they are using standard IEC rules, which is the same thing almost every other country requires. In short: new appliances are not any more or less safe than old ones.

Re:better summary

[PentAthl337]

My 40 year old tube amp will compete with anything modern you can throw at it.

They sound especially sweet when running off of non-copper electrical outlets that lack Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters.
Aluminum wiring wrapped with asbestos insulation is the best.

Re:better summary

[tsm_sf]

Here comes a hammer.

Re:better summary

[geodescent]

How dare you read Digg! :-p

Re:better summary

[trailerparkcassanova]

Gound Fault Circuit Interrupters? The outlets in my house don't have grounds!!!

Re:better summary

[phasm42]

I don't think you don't need ground for GFCI. GFCI detects an imbalance between the current flow in the neutral and hot conductors, typically caused by the load being grounded to something (e.g., you), at which point it breaks the circuit.

Re:better summary

[dnoyeb]

Perhaps consumer safety on its surface. But underneath this has to have a terrible effect on the environment.

Re:better summary

[Burz]

Gound Fault Circuit Interrupters? The outlets in my house don't have grounds!!!

But your coffeemaker has plenty, so don't worry.

i was gonna...

[moochfish]

I was gonna make an April Fools jab, but then I realized owning a room full of 30 year old tin boxes is no laughing matter.

Re:i was gonna...

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent GAY

Re:i was gonna...

[LoRdTAW]

In japan only old electronics sell you

Re:i was gonna...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea.... Basically, I would really like all that HAM radio equipment, that's some pretty sweet stuff. Wish I could have it.... *Drool*

enter black market...

[VMaN]

..where people aren't protected from scams etc....

Tinkerers?

[Blazeix]

I know I learned a lot about electronics from taking apart old electronics. I'm sure there are many people out there that did the same. Will this come to an end in Japan?

Re:Tinkerers?

[ioErr]

If the ban is on selling, then in the short term, wouldn't this increase the amount of old electronics people are willing to give you to take apart?

Re:Tinkerers?

[petermgreen]

thing is in the last decade or so (possiblly longer i'm unsure when this started) most consumer electronics has become so complex and/or miniturized that you don't stand a chance of figuring out whats going on without a circuit diagram or a lot of electronics knowlage.

what did you take apart that taught you a lot about electronics?

Re:Tinkerers?

[deacon]

Most of the time the problem is dried out electrolytic caps. Buy or build an ESR meter, spend 30 cents on caps, and have a working product.

The silicon parts rarely go bad.

Re:Tinkerers?

[speed_of_light]

I know I learned a lot about electronics from taking apart old electronics. I'm sure there are many people out there that did the same. Will this come to an end in Japan?

Not at all! It's just Sony's way of saying "Why pay $15 to destroy something when you can pay $1200?"

Re:Tinkerers?

[Expert Determination]

Oh, don't worry about that any more. It's much easier these days. There's a black box called a microcontroller and it does everything. You can't actually see what it does but as it's approximately Turing complete you know it can do anything. There you go, that's all you need to know about modern electronic equipment.

Re:Tinkerers?

[Snorpus]

Check out the latest issue (April '06) of QST magazine. The cover story is about a ham who home-brewed a fully modern HF transceiver, with specs that actually exceed commercial transceivers costing $3K+.

Japan has a large amateur radio population, I'm wondering what effect this will have on them?

Re:Tinkerers?

[Monkeys!!!]

"most consumer electronics has become so complex and/or miniturized that you don't stand a chance of figuring out whats going on"

I've heard this argument used before and I stil don't believe it.

"what did you take apart that taught you a lot about electronics?"

I've learnt an amazing amount by taking aparent modern electronics. The main thing I take apart (as well as most slashdoters) is my P.C. From this I've learnt basic computer architecture and how to install hardware. I've learnt how the PSU supplys power to each component.

I've also taken apart and fixed my optical mouse. From this I learnt how the mechanism for the scroll wheel works.

I also took apart and rebuilt my faulty C.D player. I wasn't able to diagnose the problem but it still works as welll as it did before I took it apart.

Yes modern equipment is more complex then the past but there is still a wealth of knowledge to be gained.

Re:Tinkerers?

[Anonymous Coward]

I learnt that you really do need to put all the bits back in the right places. I also learnt that taking apart my Dad's hi-fi wasn't a good idea...

Re:Tinkerers?

[Gulthek]

Heh.

I've learnt an amazing amount by taking aparent modern electronics. The main thing I take apart (as well as most slashdoters) is my P.C. From this I've learnt basic computer architecture and how to install hardware. I've learnt how the PSU supplys power to each component.

Wow. That's an amazing amount of superficial knowledge. Replacing a video card doesn't really count as taking a computer apart. Yes, you learned that there are strips of green plastic with electronics that do stuff in the computer. When you tell me that you took apart the card itself I'll be impressed.

I've also taken apart and fixed my optical mouse. From this I learnt how the mechanism for the scroll wheel works.

So you took apart an optical mouse, but only learned how the *physical* mechanism works. Bravo. Did you take apart the optics or the circuit board?

I also took apart and rebuilt my faulty C.D player. I wasn't able to diagnose the problem but it still works as welll as it did before I took it apart.

So, it's still "faulty"? Amazing. It sounds like you didn't even learn about checking solder connections and such.

I'd say you should read up on tube radios and such to see what our grandparents could learn by messing with their home electronics. Or just read the "He Fixes Radios by Thinking!" chapter in "Surely You're Joking Mr. Feynman." All you seem to have learned is that black chips are stuck onto green plastic pieces, with other pieces also. That doesn't really sound like a "wealth of knowledge."

Re:Tinkerers?

[Monkeys!!!]

I agree that when I crack open my P.C I'm not gonna learn about how basic circuits work. I learn't that in highschool. In fact I learn't that twice in highschool, one time as part of a compulsary class. By opening up an P.C I was able to apply this basic knowledge to a practical use. I don't think I would of been game to replace any part of my P.C with out that basic understanding of what was going on in/on the mother board. Your right, I can only gain a superficial knowledge of how a computer works by opening it up. I learn't the more detailed stuff in high school, along with every other person in my school. I don't need to crack open a tube radio to learn about electronics, it was part of learning experience in high school. P.S: I actually did take apart the optical secion of the mouse as I was curious to it's design. I also checked the solder connections when I had my C.D player open.

Re:Tinkerers?

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad nobody "learn't" you how to spell...

Re:Tinkerers?

[bluelip]

Obviously I can't recall everything I've opened up, but here are some:

The gray box on the outside of my parent's house for the telco demark : I learned that the problem is usually with the end user.

Dismantled the markers for the automatic feeding of livestock on my family's farm : I learned about how an access card works 15 years before I had my own.

A toaster : How resistance generates heat

Tape decks : How the tape stores it's information magnetically

VCRs : How the head is able to read the information from the tape

Transistor radios : How the signal is detected and amplified.

Video game joysticks : how the movement i made was being picked up by basic switches.

Wall Clocks : How a 'C' cell device can be used w/ an 'A' cell battery. I learned about voltage, chemical reactions, and capacity.

Telephones : Red, Right, Ring

Floppy drives : Stepper motor operation.

"Cattle Prods" : voltage vs amperage

Autmatic Lights : CDS components

RC cars : Radio Frequency, Servos, Pulse Duration

Film Projectors : Light to audio conversion

Grain bins : Height/Distance/Weight/Moisture sensors

Kodak Cameras : batteries integrated w/ film packaging, chemistry

Flashlights : Effects of using different bulbs

Batteries : How serial/parallel circuits work.

Speakers : Calculate serial vs parallel resistance

Igntion Coil : volts -> amps

Amateur radios : workings of radio frequenct devices.

TVs : how the screen is drawn by varying magnetic stregths

Boxes of various colors : ADC circuits

Christmas lights : circuit interuption

Flasher for a car's turn signals : heat/relays/switches

Strobe lights : triggers, high voltage

Mouse : optical decoding

Motors : commutators , brushes, etc

Car Alarms : using a piezo buzzer as a motion sensor

Thermocouples : varistors

Dimmer switches : pots / duty cycle

I was lucky enough to have a job since I was 10. This afforded me the ability to buy all of this "junk" and figure out how it worked.

Yes, some specialized ICs have come about. For the most part, the components are still there, they're just smaller. The concepts are still in our current devices, if someone has the ambition to learn from them.

If nothing else, go spend the 40 bucks or so on the ARRL handbook and examine the ciruits in it. Looking at a schematic is in some ways better than looking at the actual device.

Re:Tinkerers?

[SkullOne]

GET OFF THE INTERNET.

Re:Tinkerers?

[evilviper]

thing is in the last decade or so (possiblly longer i'm unsure when this started) most consumer electronics has become so complex and/or miniturized that you don't stand a chance of figuring out whats going on without a circuit diagram or a lot of electronics knowlage.

Things have gotten more complex, in general, but that doesn't mean there isn't still a tremendous ammount to learn, and fix!

What are the biggest problems with consumer electronics these days? Dead capacitors, loose solder connections, etc.

Sure, you can't learn as much as you were once able to, but what you learned a few decades ago hasn't made it possible for you to fix your DVD player, either ;-). The whole world has changed, and the things people don't learn from taking apart electronics these days, are the things that aren't relevant these days...

So, instead of learning how a tube works, kids are learning how a microcontroller works. So, instead of building crystal radios and amplifiers, kids are building circuits which allow them to directly drive an ISA videocard, or modifying a 'free' satellite reciever.

Just because things have changed, doesn't mean they've gotten worse. It's just nostalga.

Re:Tinkerers?

[petermgreen]

learning how a tube or discrete transistor cuircuit works may be possible from just looking at it particularlly if you have an idea what the compoents do already but I just can't see how thats feasible without a LOT of prior knowlage when everything interesting is inside chips and over half the tracks are burried in the middle of the board.

Doesn't Japan already have a garbage problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because I'm not sure increasing the rate that their landfills grows at further is a good move.

Driving consumerism & export development

[EmbeddedJanitor]

This has been an ongoing thing in Japan. It drives the Japanese imported car idustry in places like New Zealand. Forcing local consumption also helps Japan develop new products in its quest to export. For an interesting read http://www.virtualschool.edu/mon/Economics/Japan/J apanYes. I don't endorse or condemn what's written here, not that my endorsement or condemnation are worth jack.

Re:Driving consumerism & export development

[RPGonAS400]

When I lived in Canada I needed to replace the engine on my 93 Honda Civic. The Honda Dealer in Manitoba could get me one from a place called something like Japan Motors in Ontario. They told me that it was against the law for cars in Japan to be run for over 50k km (or something like that) and that this Japan Motors imported these great used engines. CNC Motors in California does a similar thing. Their web site http://www.cncmotors.com/WhyJapan.asp explains why.

Re:Driving consumerism & export development

[Lumpy]

Exactly! and i found it to be a bonus. you can buy most import cars engines with very little miles on them for dirt coming out of Japan here in the USA as well.

Do a search on Japan import motors and you can typically get a nearly new engine for about the same price as a worn out junker from your local junk yard.

Re:Driving consumerism & export development

[jrumney]

It's not illegal to run cars over 50k km, just the tax structure on vehicles encourages people to get rid of them after 5 years (when they've mostly done around 50k km). You need to be careful when buying a second-hand car or engine from Japan though. The fact that they don't intend to keep them past 5 years means that maintenence can sometimes suffer, and depending on the area the car is from it can have various problems caused by spending most of its life stuck in traffic jams or on salted roads.

I'm a concerned fanboy...

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this some kind of subtle campain against XBox360 technology?

I mean it already doesn't sell over there... but assuming that it's like tech from 2001 makes me angry!

I spent ~$1000 on my XBox360 (with Games!) and I don't want to hear anymore bad news about it !!!

Re:I'm a concerned fanboy...

[Anonymous Coward]

your an idiot is what you are

Only retail

[JanneM]

This is only retail sales, not individuals. And it isn't a ban, it merely requires the retailer to take responsibility that the device is safe according to the new standard. And it involves only the safety of high-voltage (mains-powered) equipment, not electronics.

Here's a link discussing it: http://www.mutantfrog.com/2006/02/22/2nd-hand-elec tronics-sales-will-not-soon-be-illegal-in-japan/

Re:Only retail

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, freg. I hope that doesn't count the 360. I realize you plug it in, but given the size of that power adapter...

Re:Only retail

[extrarice]

Mod parent up!

Move along, nothing to see here...

Re:Only retail

[jayhawk88]

Damn you. I had this awesome two page rant about how this law was going to cut the potential market for my Cyrix 166 chip/mobo by almost 4%. Now it would only get a +5 Funny instead of Insightful.

Re:Only retail

[mausmalone]

No, it doesn't count the 360. It only applies to electronics manufactured before April 2001 or electronics manufactured after April 2001 that don't have the certification sticker. Such electronics will need to get tested to get the sticker before they can be sold (but they can still be sold).

Also, as far as the power adapter is concerned. The Dreamacast is subject to certification because the power adapter is internal. The miniaturized PSOne is not since its power adapter is external (however, the power adapter itself is subject to the certification sticker). Game cartridges and console accessories are not subject to the regulation because they don't require any sort of AC/DC conversion and run on minimal power.

(In reality, the law is mildly more complicated than that, but the general internal/external/non-existant AC adapter is a relatively accurate rule-of-thumb for figuring this out.)

Re:Only retail

[ksheff]

and I was hoping for a glut of Japanese electronics on ebay. :(

Side Effects

[Y-Crate]

You really have to wonder how effective their recycling operations are. Japan is going to experience a massive increase in solid waste being disposed of - with a good portion of it requiring special processing to handle the toxic elements - if this law is actually enforced.

Then again, I think this law is just a ploy by Nintendo lobbyists to force Japanese consumers to purchase their continual stream of repackaged..er..."innovative" GameBoys and uses a Revolution to play all of the old games, instead of a 1,000 yen secondhand GC/64/etc. ;)

Re:Side Effects

[Anonymous Coward]

Err, why would you buy an old crusty Gameboy anyway. They aren't going to send the analog police to your house, they'll just stomp on used electronics stores that sell potentially dangerous equipment.

They're just making sure you can't buy any more cheap VCRs with a frayed power cord and then take it back to your dry, wooden house full of tatami mats, books and ridiculously flammable plushies and kill yourself watching bootleg anime.

Re:Side Effects

[sasutan]

Japan often has recycling surcharges on computers, cars, cellphones, TV's etc, so that when you buy the machine, you are also buying the cost of recycling it too. Once you are sick of it, you just send it back to the maker and they recycle it.

Also most consumer electronics makers offer buy back schemes, to encourage you to update and upgrade.

This is just a smart move to get keep the Japanese massive consumerist market plugging along.

Re:Side Effects

[CagedBear]

Japan is going to experience a massive increase in solid waste being disposed of

I bet this isn't true. Japanese tend to have smaller homes than here in the U.S. In fact I remember hearing the Nintendo Game Cube had a higher chance of success in Japan than the xBox simply due to size. I just can't picture folks having closets full of 486's and boat anchor stereos that are suddenly a safety concern.

Re:Side Effects

[Kuukai]

Actually, ignoring the fact that the law doesn't actually apply to consoles like the Famicom (NES), I'm pretty sure that if it did it would piss off Nintendo. Why? Because the patent on the Famicom recently expired, and "innovative third-party models" less than five years old would be more legal than the original. They wouldn't be losing money on it, but it's hard to imagine them being thrilled.

Great... more garbage

[Zerbs]

So if people can't resell the stuff, I'm willing to bet alot of it will end up in the garbage. And I'm sure most of what ends up in the garbage won't be disposed of properly.

Re:Great... more garbage

[CarlHungus]

That does depend on where you live in Japan. http://www.cuke.com/misc/Japanese%20recycling.html
My city is still pretty lazy about rubbish sorting but I don't envy those living in Yokohama.

Re:Great... more garbage

[Neo-Rio-101]

Actually Japan has an incredibly efficient waste disposal system, and they do garbage sorting between burnable and no burnable rubbish as well. They can't uselandfills so most rubbish gets burned in a controlled pressurized furnace environment. Harmful gases are treated. The exhaust gas is monitored so that harmful particles do not escape in dangerous volumes. The heat produces from the huge furnaces goes back onto the power grid. The waste material is then treated further and turned into something useful.

Ridiculous...why stop resale?

[Coopjust]

This is ridiculous. Why stop the resale of old electronics? Electronics IMPROVE over time - why stop the resale of old ones?

As technology is phased out, it is hard to get unless resold - i.e. the Famicom. So you can't buy an old electronic?

Buying older games for my N64 doesn't provide any competition to my buying of games for my Xbox 360. The N64 is different, and I can get classics for it. I can get better (looking) games for my 360.

My point? Old electronics don't compete with new ones. To stop resale could kill older collectibles, like older video game systems or old formats (VHS, or in a few years, DVD). Heck, it could even kill formats...

Re:Ridiculous...why stop resale?

[SydShamino]

As has been pointed out, this only applies to old electronics that connect to MAINS circuits (e.g. wall outlets, which are 100 VAC RMS in Japan IIRC).

Category II circuit, such as MAINS, as defined by IEC and (in the US) Underwriter's Laboratories, must be designed to tolerate overvoltage conditions such as those caused by transformer shorts or relatively distant lightning strikes. From UL 3121-1, a circuit designed with a working voltage of 100 V DC or AC RMS must tolerate a peak impulse voltage of 1360 V for a few microseconds (from table D.10). This doesn't necessarily mean that the product still has to work after such an impulse; it just means that the product must remain safe to the operator for such an impulse. Fuses can blow, chips can be damaged, but no voltage greater than 60 V DC / 42.4 V AC pk can be exposed to the user.

I assume that Japan's old standard, before 2001, was weaker than this. Thus, older electronics can't be sold because they could theoretically kill the users.

This only applies to products that carried MAINS voltages. (Products with wall-warts limit the high voltage to the wall, and are completely unaffected.) Even then, the old products might have been designed above the standard, and therefore could still be sold anyway.

(Disclaimer: I design high voltage hardware products.)

Re:Ridiculous...why stop resale?

[starman97]

Seems like retrofitting old electronics with a mini-surge protector would solve this problem. Something small that you could stick onto the back panel with double sided tape would be easy to install.

Not really a big deal in Japan

[helioquake]

As far as regular consumers go, this regulation is not a big deal in Japan. Many Japanese would prefer buying new hardwares/appliances to buying them used (the same goes to automotives).

Yes, there is a niche market to resell the used materials, but the market is not as big as it is over here in the U.S. (I'm thinking eBay or craiglist). So from consumers' stand point I don't think this would cause major headaches.

As far as the recycling of old gadgets go? For *that*, I would like to know what the government is planning to do. /no I didn't RTFA.

Re:Not really a big deal in Japan

[fons]

IRC, Japanese don't like old cars because there is a TAX on old cars. You pay higher taxes on cars that are older than 3 years. So they export used cars by boatloads. That's why it's easy to pick up a young second hand (Japanese) car in the nearby countries. In New Zealand for example. (not so much in Australia. Since they have their own car industry, there is a high import tax on all cars)

I suppose the Japanese government does this to stimulate consumption and fire up the economy

Re:Not really a big deal in Japan

[Atsi Otani]

Actually, this is causing major headaches for some folks in Japan (who probably constitute a niche market) - musicians (yes, I am an amateur musician). We still want to be able to buy vintage tube amps, synths, organs, consoles... some of the vintage "mojo" people seem to worship is really ridiculous, but there definitely is a need for vintage gear.

Realistically speaking, I don't think that it will be impossible for us to buy vintage gear in Japan. Some of the larger stores are getting registered as "manufacturers," which can authorize old stuff so it can be resold. I've heard that some stores are thinking of renting stuff (which will continue to be permitted) for a stiff fee, then give the customer an option to get the gear for free, effectively selling the item in question. We'll have to see if the government will tolerate that. In all, it looks like this will mean less competition in the vintage gear market = more price gouging. Japanese musicians like Ryuichi Sakamoto have started an online petition, but it's probably going to go nowhere. Not a very good situation for us.

Disappointing

[ickoonite]

This is rather disheartening news. One of the most wonderful things about Japan is its thriving second hand market, and I for one spent an awful lot of money in shops like Sofmap, mostly on Mac stuff.

It all seemed to work so well. The Japanese have, to put it mildly, something of a penchant for things shiny and new, so what they toss out would be regarded by Westerners as nearly new. So rather than putting all this nearly new stuff to waste, they sell it to shops like Sofmap, who sell it on to people like me, who are quite happy with a nearly new bargain. Contrast that with, say, Britain, where, the mobile phone market excepted, we make the most of our computers and such - the term the Japanese use is tsukaikomu.

It's not as though this is going to net the computer companies much more profit - people buy new things anyway, as stated above.

Shame. I had hoped to net myself a Flower Power iMac next time I was out there...

iqu :s

Re:Disappointing

[dzurn]

Another Japanese used gear store is called, somewhat unfortunately, "Hard Off".

Re:Disappointing

[Anonymous Coward]

"Shame. I had hoped to net myself a Flower Power iMac next time I was out there..."

There is more to electronics than eMacs and VCR's, you know. I, for one, would find this law absolutely disturbing, if implemented, here in states.

Old can sometimes be infinitevly better. Take analog vs. digital. Korg, Moog, Roland, Alesis, Kawai..... vintage synths is what makes me drool..I have a few. Most of the vintage stuff didn't use AC adapters...Straight on 110V of power! I guess, you would still be able to get these on craigslist, or maybe e-bay, but definitively not in that lower east side shop that used to specialise in refurbishing the old ones. Now my guitarist can't get an 80's Fender amp stack?

Sure our last drummer choked to death on his own vomit, and the last one died in a gardening accident, but maybe the rest of us want to go out by getting electricuted on stage because all 6 washroom hand dryers were going at it at the same time.

Only Unsafe Stuff, Right?

[Pantero Blanco]

From the Update, I get the idea that it is only for things that may be unsafe to sell...So, the old model of a TV set that was known to shock people won't be legal to sell, but the old cell phone or 486 is fine?

Re:Only Unsafe Stuff, Right?

[Musteval]

Well, as long as they don't shock people. So as long as you don't use that 486 to access goatse, yeah.

Is analoge music toast?

[rpd10]

This event has sent shivers done the collective spines of musicians all over the world. Currently huge movement to resurrect analog synthesizers from the 70's and 80's to capture that unique sound is starting to sound like a crime in Japan and will seriously affect the future of music. Of course, similar laws reflect why you do not see a dinged up car ether... capitalism rules in Japan (are the "fascist"?)>;

This would put Fry's out of business

[SoCalDissident]

But, seriously, the one thing that the summary or link mention is that the legistlation is for retailers, not individuals.

This site has a much better (i./e. non-alarmist) summary, and another link to the actual regulations spelled out.

Doesn't do much for the environment

[bjdevil66]

This has to be a joke article... If it's not, this sounds 100% business driven and 0% environmentally unwise. According to an update to the article at the bottom, "exports are exempt from the new law." Maybe that's how they plan on getting rid of worthless junk instead of filling up landfills - send it elsewhere and make it someone else's problem.

I guess that means that reselling a Sony Playstation is illegal now... Will this 5 year date roll forward, rendering items made in 2002 unsellable in 2007, etc.?

Weird law all the way around.

Exports of old kit are exempt

[theCat]

Since nobody in their right mind will bother certifying old equipment for resell, what this law does is push all that old stuff off-shore really fast. Most will go to China is my guess.

Now, this undercuts a market in Japan for old stuff, and that market may or may not have been important in the first place. But the law *will* create a few more sales for electronics companies. I suppose Ebay and the others are a bit put off since used electronics might be a big part of their sales... but I don't know that for sure.

Unless someone can show that reselling of fairly old equipment is a huge industry in Japan, I don't see how this is a big deal.

Re:Exports of old kit are exempt

[djkuhl]

People who prefer Apple Newton PDAs over newer ones are going to be upset.

Ebay auction

Re:Exports of old kit are exempt

[Kirth Gersen]

I am posting this at a web cafe in Phnom Penh, Cambodia, a town full of dusty computer stores packed with tottering piles of moth-eaten Fujitsu PCs and laptops with Japanese keyboards.

You can get a functional 400-MHz PIII with monitor, mouse, keboard, CDROM and 128 MB/10 GB for 100 USD. You may laugh, but I know it runs XP and Office 2003, because it runs this PC. (Actually as soon as I sat down I booted Damn Small Linux for the sake of security but that's another issue.).

A Cambodian can probably get all that for 50 USD.

Re:Exports of old kit are exempt

[typical]

Five years old is "fairly old"?

Okay, maybe with computers, but consumer electronics?

Do you buy a new stereo every five years?

Coming soon to eBay...

[Shadow Wrought]

Dumped Japanese consumer electronics. Buy Now!

More here

[bjdevil66]

This link had more information about the law. Clears this up a bit, but it's still a weird and unenforcable law, IMO.

Not much different than the new EU laws.

[Dzimas]

Similar restrictions are going into effect across Europe. Their goal is two-fold: restrict the sale of goods containing certain hazardous substances such as lead-based solder, mercury, and a handful of others (termed the RoHS initiative). If you think about it, this makes sense. We can't pee in our drinking water forever. ;) The second part of the European legislation involves a formal disposal process for *all* electronic devices. It's termed WEE, and requires manufacturers to arrange for the collection and recycling/disposal of all our old crap.

Like Japan, this may effect the resale of used goods, although there will be a patchwork of mildly inconsistent laws throughout the EU. As I see it, these initiatives will have enormous impact on the used technology market AND on small manufacturers, as another level of paperwork and expense is added to the process. The result could be fewer garage startups like Apple and H-P.

Re:Not much different than the new EU laws.

[geekoid]

"We can't pee in our drinking water forever. "

except that water has already been peed in.
Seriously, how is taking all the old equipment and througinh it away going to help? I am all for finding cleaner ways to do things, but you can't take back the lead and mercury already in components.

Re:Not much different than the new EU laws.

[njh]

We can't pee in our drinking water forever. ;)

Actually, we probably can - Urine is readily digested by water microbes and is usually sterile. The mexicans grew crops in their sewage ponds until spanish invasion, and the system had been in place for maybe 1500 years. Our society has a rather strange aversion to our own bodily wastes, yet we willingly expose ourself to known carcenogens. Fascinating.

Re:Not much different than the new EU laws.

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a book called "Gluttons and Libertines" by Marston Bates that I think you would enjoy. Try tracking it down, it's worth it.

Re:Not much different than the new EU laws.

[Eivind Eklund]

Is there any particular reason we can't recycle them? Shops here (Norway) are required to take returns for recycling.

Eivind.

JP Console Games/Hardware

[Anonymous Coward]

I recently picked up a Japanese PS2 to be able to paly some of the import games I have without the mod chips. (It's a white ceramic one, it's cool) but this saddens me. I hate seeing how much it costs to import games from Japan. I'd love to just pickup a huge stack of common (even released here) PS1/PS2 games for cheap, but $30-$80 a game sucks. Ugh.

Re:JP Console Games/Hardware

[robertjw]

You may be able to. The items can't be resold 'in Japan'. That means we will probably see a ton of stuff on ebay getting shipped to the good ol US.

Re:JP Console Games/Hardware

[Anonymous Coward]

Japanese consumer electronics product lifecycles are much shorter than in the US. This is purely an economically-driven decision. Shorter lifecycle = more buying. More buying = better economy. Same thing with their cars. The Japanese government discourages the purchase of older vehicles by requiring annual checkups on cars older than (5?) years. Ever been on the road in Japan? Imagine a Prius. Now imagine 50 thousand variations on the prius all driving on the same street. That's what it's like.

No used electronics for them means more for me

[yppiz]

I suspect that if electronics are harder to re-sell in Japan, we're going to start seeing some neat cheap used electronics coming over to foreign markets. I wouldn't mind if some of the "made for the Japanese market only" notebooks and appliances became available used in the US.

--Pat

Re:No used electronics for them means more for me

[Spy der Mann]

I wouldn't mind if some of the "made for the Japanese market only" notebooks and appliances became available used in the US.

Heh, we've been getting old US articles in Mexico for decades. Welcome to the club.

Re:No used electronics for them means more for me

[chazbet]

Here is a market niche for entrepreneurs to fill. Is there an Ebay.jp?

Already in USA we can often obtain used low-mileage engines from Japanese cars that are cheaper than fixing the engines that came with those cars originally.

Selling the entire car limits the market to countries that drive on the left, but I hear tell that Australia and NZ import alot of the Japanese cars that are too expensive to maintain under the Japanese laws but run just fine.

Huge windfall?

[svvampy]

Seems remarkably short-sighted to me, similar to games publishers complaining about re-selling games. The fact that there is a secondary market adds robustness to the primary market.

I imagine the market will adapt and consumer electronics will be made in such a way that it will be easy for manufacturers to rebadge their older stock as the latest product. In any case it will contribute to the already massive depreciation of electronic gear and may even reduce the quality of the goods further.

Mod Parent Down

[Anonymous Coward]

His calm presentation of the facts might result in a rational discussion.

Such an atmosphere is not conducive to my beloved sensationalism, conspiracy theories, and targetted hatred of corporate entities.

Re:Mod Parent Down

[stor]

His calm presentation of the facts might result in a rational discussion.

It's worse than that: it has the potential to result in the prevention of irrational, emotive, YRO-stylee rants.

Cheers
Stor

Sales not safety

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of legislation is bullshit. Safety from terrorism is justification for oil resource grab and more cronyism malfeasance than you can shake a stick at. If Putin can adopt this euphemistic style of governance, why can't Japan jump into the modern age by trying to bolster electronics sales in the name of safety?

The astute observer will note this is not a new phenomenon. Much of past legislation has had unspoken, but intended consquences which contravene with publicized reasons.

Re:Sales not safety

[Anonymous Coward]

i stopped reading when i saw "oil"

Similar to auto industry

[kenjiMR]

In Japan, after a few years the car 'shaken' or in english, yearly inspection, costs go up the roof. I remember hearing that shaken could cost up to $3000, so for that reason many people decide to move on to newer cars.

Re:Similar to auto industry

[spaceyhackerlady]

I get the impression that this is exactly like how the auto industry works in Japan. If your car is more than a couple of years old it's not going to pass vehicle inspection - no matter what sort of shape it's in - and you will have no choice but to buy a new one.

Now they're doing it with electronics. Will this mean a flood of cheap used Japanese electronics, just like the flood of cheap used Japanese cars? Or just lots of gomi for college students to pick over?

...laura

Re:Similar to auto industry

[Excen]

If this law helps more Nissan Skylines and Fairladys get exported, I fully support this legislation. Implications about forced upgrades be damned, I want my Japanese supercar dammit, I don't care how old it is!

Re:Similar to auto industry

[Anonymous Coward]

Forget about Japan, how about cars from the UK? Used cars, especially sports cars, have shocking insurance rates (think 6k pounds per year) so they are cheap. Check it out:

http://atsearch.autotrader.co.uk/WWW/cars_search.a sp?modelexact=1&lid=search_used_cars_full&make=TOY OTA&model=SUPRA&min_pr=75&max_pr=&mileage=&agerang e=3&postcode=sw1a+1aa&miles=40&max_records=50&sour ce=0&photo=1&sort=3&ukcarsearch_full=SEARCH

Re:Similar to auto industry

[Riktov]

The annual car inspections force you to buy a new one even if you're satisfied with the one you have. And the annual inspections in Japan, as in other countries, are for a legitimate reason: public safety in preventing accidents and pollution.

But the government's not subjecting televisions, washing machines, and computers to annual inspections. You can keep using what you have as long as you want. So it is quite different.

Re:Similar to auto industry

[MidnightBrewer]

The cut-off is after the fifth year (which, coincidentally, is the average length of time people go between buying cars.) You can still keep the car after that, but the shaken costs go through the roof.

As for the electronics thing, computer devices are exempt; this only applies to electrical appliances that run at high voltage. As it is, the law is pretty lenient. The retailers will say, "Okay, whatever you say," and slap a sticker on it saying that it's fine. Since, under the law, you can "lease something and then give it away," with a loophole that large, you just lease things for a month and then "give them away" to the same person after the time has expired. Just make them sign a piece of paper saying they're cool with it and everything's legal. Since most Japanese customers expect the option to return products within a month of purchasing them, anyway, it'll be business as usual.

Crisitunity

[roman_mir]

Turns out that sellers of certain kinds of old gear will have to get a government seal certifying that the items adhere to modern saftey standards if they want to sell the stuff after April 1. - I feel there is some money to be made here by some industrious government workers.

destruction of unsold old models

[kenjiMR]

I even remember back in early 90s when Japan before the bubble burst that companies were destroying unsold product that were from the previous generation or two prior, in order to keep people paying high premiums on the latest gagetry.

Re:destruction of unsold old models

[DeathElk]

Yeah, In my early days out of school (88-89) I worked for a large Japanese electronics manufacturer in Australia.

There was one model of compact typewriter that was to be discontinued - this model was still available on shelves at Target - and there was still several pallets of 'em at the warehouse.

Out came the designated 14 pound sledgehammers. It took a team of three guys, including myself, four hours to convert these brand new typewriters into landfill.

In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux is STILL for fags.

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry about that folks, that should have read: Linux is STILL for homosexuals.

I know, I know. I'm trying to be more sensitive to the Slashdot community's needs.

Forced Upgrades

[nurb432]

Great way to re-capture that market share of people that are quite happy with older stuff and dont buy into the 'latest and greatest' fad when something older does the job just fine.

does this also restrict repair of old equipment too?

This is a great way to start pushing DRM down stream. Cant buy/sell that pesky analog equipment. Im sure the US will follow suit soon

not really..

[slughead]

Maybe I read this wrong, but it seems like a huge windfall for consumer electronics manufacturers if/when this goes into effect...

It doesn't mean that people will have to buy new stuff, it just says that all new stuff will have to be compliant.

If the new standards are harder to comply with, perhaps it could mean less profit on new items sold.

On the other hand, this power could be used to further DRM restrictions on all consumer electronics manufacturers.

What the FCC is doing to consumers with this whole digital broadcast thing is actually much worse as it actually FORCES people who want to watch network TV broadcasts to "upgrade."

Moreover, I'd like to add that forcing cable companies to comply with FCC regulations is totally ridiculous. How do they regulate wiring intrastate using the "interstate commerce clause"?

As a Libertarian, I guess I should be used to people ignoring the constitution when it comes to things they agree with. One tiny law with good intentions could open the door, legally speaking, for anything.

Re:not really..

[Anonymous Coward]

it just says that all new stuff will have to be compliant.

Funny. I thought it was saying that all old stuff will have to be compliant, to be sold.

Considering it costs at least $200 dollars to have them test for compliance, you're not getting that dreamcast anymore.

Re:not really..

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Moreover, I'd like to add that forcing cable companies to comply with FCC regulations is totally ridiculous. How do they regulate wiring intrastate using the "interstate commerce clause"?

Who said anything about the FCC?

Re:not really..

[Ahnteis]

The FCC is buying 2 digital tuners per household so that people don't have to pay to upgrade.

That's a pretty fair deal in the end.

Re:not really..

[Thomas Shaddack]

...you're not getting that dreamcast anymore.

C'mon, just find a willing seller, and buy it. Law and market are fairly orthogonal.

If it's illegal to buy/sell old electronics...

Vintage Audio

[HowIsMyDriving?]

People in Japan over the last 30 years have been draining Vintage tubed audio equipment and horn loudspeakers from the US like no other country. If you were to go over to Japan with an old Western Electric 300b Based tube amp, you could get thousands of dollars for it. An example of a Mcintosh MC 30 6l6 based amp going price in the US is around 600-1000 dollars per mono bock. If I were to take the amps over there, I could get 5-10k for a set. The same with Altec, JBL, Klipsch, Western electric speakers. This will hurt a huge tubed audio and vintage audio industry in Japan. Most of their high end audio gear is still tubed based, and they often love to use vintage caps, resistors, transformers, for they think they have better sound. This will put lots of people out of business.

Re:Vintage Audio

[murderlegendre]

I work for a small manufacturer of high-end vacuum tube audio equipment in the USA. While we have almost zero sales in Japan, we often get inquiries about vintage equipment and tubes. Last month, a Japanese gentleman stopped by the shop, with an American friend & interpreter. The laundry list was exactly as you describe - Western Electric, Voice of the Theater, Ampex, JBL, Altec, Electro-Voice and so forth.

As one would expect, he was exceptionally polite and willing to look at anything we cared to show him, but it was also very clear exactly what he was seeking. It's pretty odd how the Japanese aren't interested in *new* handbuilt USA tube equipment, but are willing to shell out a king's ransom for old gear, with questionable sonic qualities. While I'm not ultra-keen on seeing this legacy equipment go overseas, it's safe to say that it will be very well cared for by the new owners. They revere it almost to the point of fetishism.

I wanted to take him by the Pavek Radio Museum, but that would have been way too cruel ;-)

Re:Vintage Audio

[Fulcrum of Evil]

I wanted to take him by the Pavek Radio Museum, but that would have been way too cruel ;-)

You should have - maybe he'd bring some buddies out the next time.

Re:Vintage Audio

[Lehk228]

They revere it almost to the point of fetishism.

Tubegirl?

Re:Vintage Audio

[Anonymous Coward]

Yuck, that sound is so muddy. I hear they're noisy too. There's a nice liquid sonic character present through the whole upper range though.

Then again, I've never really been able to enjoy these vented designs anyway.

Re:Vintage Audio

[BlueStrat]

They revere it almost to the point of fetishism.

Tubegirl?

Thanks, now that beautiful vintage brown grillcloth on my old tube guitar amp will make my stomach turn every time I look at it from now on. :D

Strat

Sony PS2

[Anonymous Coward]

The Sony PS2 came out before that time period. Does this mean that the PS2 is now banned in Japan after said date?

Already in Australia

[njh]

This is already true in Australia - My parent's Church can't sell electrical applicances in their fete due to lack of certification.

I wonder if it is a ploy by industry groups to increase 'consumer spending', i.e. stop people repairing old and force them to buy (cheap, shoddy) new stuff.

Re:Already in Australia

[ross.w]

Anything with a C-tick mark should be OK. That means anything sold in the last eight years or so

Re:Already in Australia

[njh]

Ok, thanks for that. Although most of the stuff going to the fete is a lot older than that :)

Yay Black Market!

[Shacky]

I can just see this now:

"Hey, wanna buy a pager? Come on, Alphanumeric! How about a blender?
I've got a deal just for you on vcr's buddy.. Step into my alley"

Uhhh...

[Jarn_Firebrand]

What's the deal here? This hardly seems like news.

So, electronics that were authorized under the old guidelines cannot be sold... unless the conform to the new. Anything that is safe can still be sold!

Typical

[ScaryMonkey]

This is pretty typical of the Japanese government and is doubtless motivated solely by a desire to artificially stimulate industry. They do the exact same thing with cars, which have a mandatory "safety inspection" every couple years that is really a disguised tax on old cars, basically making it cheaper to buy a new car instead. It seems they are trying to do the same thing with electronics; you'll note that they aren't banning them outright, but I suspect its just a ploy to make buying them economically unfeasible since the "certification" will no doubt in reality be a hefty tax. The funny part is that, as many previous posters have mentioned, the Japanese are already addicted to the newest and shiniest stuff.

haha, more working equipment in the trash for me

[timecop]

Good, that means there will be even more perfectly fine working equipment in the trash.
I'm not complaining, with stuff like http://pbx.mine.nu/lolbox.jpg in the garbage, I don't even need to work. Can't wait until they start throwing out BSDigital tuners made = 2001, these will be great additions to my A/V collection.

Actually lead based solder bans make no sense

[Sycraft-fu]

Of human lead disposal, the vast majority, over 90%, is car battries. Solder is only a fraction of the remaining fraction. Eliminating lead solder, while keeping lead car battries, is like saving power by turning off a table lamp, while leaving your windows open and AC on.

But it gets worse. The non-lead solders are predominantly tin. This has two major disadvantages over lead based solders:

1) Higher melting point. Means more components get fried and more joints don't form properly in creation, leading to more stuff for the junk heap.

2) Tin whiskers. For some reason, tin solders have little tiny tin cyrstals grow on them. Should that growth touch another lead, you get a short and thus a blown component. They happen even if you put a coating on the board. Given how close joints are these days on ICs, this is a bigger problem than it was in the past. NASA has info on it http://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/

Really, this is not only a solution to a non-issue, it just makes things worse over all.

Re:Actually lead based solder bans make no sense

[cortana]

Really, this is not only a solution to a non-issue, it just makes things worse over all.

God bless the Treaty of Rome and Our Glorious Leaders who signed it! May our children's children never forget the day that our forefathers forever signed away our freedoms for the sake of multinational corporations and the ever-expanding bureaucracy!

Re:Actually lead based solder bans make no sense

[Anonymous Coward]

RoHS is not only about lead, it covers other materials as well.
The lead in the car batteries is extremely easy to recycle. Hence batteries are excempt from RoHS.

Similarly, some lead based solders are excempt.

The point of RoHS is not so much to force out certain materials but more to make sure that they are easy to recycle, this is why lead in batteries is excempt but lead in chip packages or pbb mixed into the plastic isn't.

Re:Actually lead based solder bans make no sense

[evilviper]

Of human lead disposal, the vast majority, over 90%, is car battries. Solder is only a fraction of the remaining fraction.

Car batteries have enough value that you can be sure they will practically ALWAYS be recycled properly.

Lead solder, however, gets tossed into landfills all the time, in the form of discarded stereos, computers, etc.

Eliminating lead solder, while keeping lead car battries, is like saving power by turning off a table lamp, while leaving your windows open and AC on.

Wow, what a terrible analogy... Comparing the ban on lead solder, to an example of blatantly wasting energy...

1) Higher melting point. Means more components get fried

I have to say, after many, many years of soldering a lot of electronics with heavy-duty soldering irons, I have NEVER fried ANYTHING. Not once. I can only imagine this problem comes from people using low-powered (<20w) soldering irons, leaving them on components for much longer periods of time. I've never, never seen a single case of this with high-power industrial soldering irons (>40w).

and more joints don't form properly in creation, leading to more stuff for the junk heap.

I'm not so sure. In fact, the additional strength of tin (well, as compared to lead anyhow) should mean less solder points breaking after repeated stress, either from tempurature change (computers, TVs, monitors, etc.) or from physical stresses (surface-mount connectors, etc.). Perhaps we'd never have heard about blowing on a videogame cartridge, if Nintendo had used tin solder?

Really, this is not only a solution to a non-issue, it just makes things worse over all.

I'd say, at the very least, you're exaggerating. It has the potential to cause new problems, just as any material change does. However, there's plenty of reason to believe it could lead to an improvement in reliability, as well as meaning far less lead in the environment.

Bad news for

[Belseth]

Guess the Amiga stores are screwed. That's assuming there's one left in Japan.

Really?

[No Such Agency]

"the term the Japanese use is tsukaikomu."

Not just gomi?

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, he's right, it's tsukaikomu, and if you look it up in a dictionary, you'll see a bit of the culture he's talking about reflected in their language (or is it the other way around, hmm). The same word for "to use for a long time" is used for "to embezzle".

Heard this years ago - does it relate?

[murderlegendre]

Several years ago, I read something that relates to this. Someone with better knowledge of Japanese consumer culture can chime in and correct me if this is incorrect.

I read that on a certain day every year in Japan, it is customary (at least in the wealthier areas) to put all of your used (from the last year or so) electronics out on the curb (or in the alley, whichever you have) as an emblem of your prosperity, and as a demonstration of your intent to replace your old Japanese goods with new.

People from less wealthy areas might come in the dark to scavenge near-new goods, but it is seriously frowned upon, as there is a great social stigma on the dumpster-diving concept.

While wasteful, the practice is not totally out of the question. If this is true, perhaps that these new regulations are just a sidenote to the Japanese consumer? I'm curious to know the truth of the matter.

Re:Heard this years ago - does it relate?

[JanneM]

I read that on a certain day every year in Japan, it is customary (at least in the wealthier areas) to put all of your used (from the last year or so) electronics out on the curb (or in the alley, whichever you have) as an emblem of your prosperity, and as a demonstration of your intent to replace your old Japanese goods with new.

Sigh. A kernel of truth blown up into unrecognizeability.

One week in April there are several one-day holidays that happen to fall in that one week, and the sole remaining workday is often made a holiday as well (or people just take one vacation day). It's called "golden week", and is a major holiday. Other longer holidays, like the new year, and Obon, are traditional and family oriented, but during golden week you're free to do whatever you please.

So it's not so surprising that this is perhaps the foremost travel holiday, but with so many people with free time, many stores also schedule major sales campaigns for that week. So lots of people buy new stuff during that week, and throw away the old. Garbage collecting is done at the curb here, and with all the old stuff being thrown out, and as the garbage collectors are on holiday too, it really piles up.

So yes, there tends to be lots of older electronics sitting by the curb at around the end of Golden Week - along with furniture, refrigerators, household stuff and plain old garbage. But most of it really is old and broken (people do buy new stuff for a reason), and no, nobody cares what people throw out. After all, apartment buildings and single homes both have a common pickup spot nearby so it's not like you can easily figure out whose stuff it is anyhow.

And while you can make the occasional find if you persevere, it's really no different from any dumpster-diving - often fruitless, and in many cases probably not entirely legal (the stuff does belong to either the thrower away or the garbage company, after all).

Re:Heard this years ago - does it relate?

[sorrydaijin]

Its actually as frequent as once a month in some places on what can be loosely translated as "big rubbish" day when you put out stuff that isn't taken away on a burnable rubbish day (usually twice a week) or a recyclable rubbish day (once or twice a month).
The foreign students dorm I lived in for a year had a TV and fridge for pretty much every room, almost all taken from the streets around the university. There is a great stigma towards dumpster diving, and all of the juicy stuff lining the streets is generally scavenged by us "gaijins" (foreigners) or dodgy operators of 2nd-hand shops driving around in their little utes and vans.
Oh, and its not really to symbolize prosperity, but rather due to the fact that the average Japanese consumer upgrades electronics, etc. a lot more frequently than most other countries. 10 years have past since owning my first scavenged fridge, and now I have become more of an upgrade freak than many of the Japanese people around me. It must be the water.

Re:Heard this years ago - does it relate?

[Anonymous Coward]

When I stayed in tokyo for a month - once a week everyone put out their magazines to be recycled, and they are all neatly tied up in a bundle with string, totally sepereate from all the other paper based recycling.

I was able to walk around for 5 minutes, and pick up 10-20 week old game and pr0n magazines. it was great.

Re:Heard this years ago - does it relate?

[Anonymous Coward]

So basically hard rubbish collection, as happens in most large cities. Great place to pick up stuff it is, too (currently restoring a cute wooden TV I picked up at one).

Re:Heard this years ago - does it relate?

[murderlegendre]

Thanks (to several of you) for the info.. much more interesting than what I had originally read.

So wastefull

[Anonymous Coward]

That is so horribly wasteful it's just plain depressing. I guess it's probably good for the economy, but really, imo economic forces kinda like fire... good servant, bad master. Still, with any luck these laws will be as ineffectual as Australia's apparently similar laws (which I didn't even know about till I read comments here, and which most secondhand places thankfully ignore).

Antique Electronics?

[BigBlockMopar]

There must be a serious plague of exploding N64s and MP3 players in Japan.

Well, in all seriousness though, this is a problem.

Lots of early consumer electronics devices won't even remotely approach modern safety standards. Consider early radios and TV sets which often used a "hot chassis" (where the steel chassis was directly connected to one side of the power line as part of a system avoiding the use of an expensive power transformer), like those using the traditional "All American Five" tube lineup (50B5 or 50C5, 35W4, 12AV6, 12BE6, 12BA6), or the flip-leaf toasters of the 1920s. These items constitute only a very small risk because they will mostly be in very casual use by informed collectors and restorers, and short of mounting them in fireproof plexiglass boxes with isolation transformers, they will never even approach modern safety standards. (Note that a hot chassis wasn't as big a risk before they became surrounded by modern grounded electrical equipment - in their designed surroundings, you were unlikely to touch a grounded object at the same time as the radio. Also note that *many* post-war Japanese radios used the All-American Five design!)

Such a rule would effectively eliminate the collectable marketplace and probably result in the loss of many of the early products of companies which later became leaders in their fields. The first Sony transistor radio is historically significant, as is the first JVC VHS VCR, as is...

Japan is also noted among automotive enthusiasts for similarly draconian rules surrounding old cars - I cannot corroborate this, but I have heard that the *entire* braking system must be replaced in all cars over a certain number of years of age.

The grisly irony, of course, is that this is from a culture which reveres aged people... but they're apparently happy to destroy the remaining artifacts those people built.

(By the way, good rule of thumb: *never* leave any piece of electronic equipment made before about 1980 running unattended, inspect them for possible dangers like rotten insulation, and *always* assume that any exposed metal pieces are connected to one side of the power line.)

Re:Antique Electronics?

[suspected]

The grisly irony, of course, is that this is from a culture which reveres aged people... but they're apparently happy to destroy the remaining artifacts those people built.

It's ironic that they treat old people differently from old things? Perhaps it's your own cultural norms you should be concerned with.

Re:Antique Electronics?

[HungWeiLo]

It's a cultural thing. Japan (as well as much of first-world Asia) frowns upon buying anything second-hand (there's no concept of a thrift store in much of Asia). This causes phenomenons like "gray-market Yamaha pianos" - used Yamahas which nobody would buy Japan due to the fact that they're used - nevermind that a good percentage of them are good, solid instruments that were probably just lightly used by a family - which are lapped up happily by North American consumers.

But on the other hand, Japanese seem to be very eager to buy second-hand female garments...

Re:Antique Electronics?

[tylernt]

"I have heard that the *entire* braking system must be replaced in all cars over a certain number of years of age."

We're close to that in the US. No shop wants to get sued if somebody gets in an accident when the brakes fail, so every shop will tell you you need new everything-brake-related whenever you go to them with a brake issue on an older car. It's not a law, it's CYA, but it amounts to almost the same thing.

Re:Antique Electronics?

[dthree]

Japan is also noted among automotive enthusiasts for similarly draconian rules surrounding old cars - I cannot corroborate this, but I have heard that the *entire* braking system must be replaced in all cars over a certain number of years of age.

I had heard a similar myth that auto engines required replacing after 40,000 miles as there were a number of import engines available in the US with this claimed 40,000 mile limit. Truth is, car inspection can be so expensive that people there would rather just trade their in on a new one before the 3rd-year inspection is due. One part of this is that the inspections, run by the government, are VERY thorough, the other part is that most people take their cars to garages for inspections and the garages liberally markup inspection costs.

Here is an interesting story about a foreigner taking his ancient (10 year old) car through the dreaded "shaken" inspection, as its often called.

Re:Antique Electronics?

[BlueStrat]

Such a rule would effectively eliminate the collectable marketplace and probably result in the loss of many of the early products of companies which later became leaders in their fields.

Even more than that, it would seriously cripple trade in items you wouldn't think about.

Vintage audio/amateur radio equipment. Audiophiles all over Japan will be screaming, as well as the amateur radio crowd. Many currently-operating amateur stations are either partially or wholly made up of vintage to moderately (10-15-20 yrs?) old equipment, which not only does the job admirably still, but also sounds to most ears "warmer" with more "punch" to be heard under high interference/weak-signal conditions than current solid state gear. (Totally subjective opinion here, but backed by mine and others' decades of experience searching the static for the weak signal of that rare contact.)

Vintage musical equipment, like vintage Fender and Marshall amplifiers among many others,that are highly valued and heavily traded among working/pro musicians as well as recording studios and collectors.

Average price in U.S. for a Blackface 1968 Fender Super Reverb in good to great condition is around $1800-$2200, in Japan I'm sure they are even more rare/expensive, so that's a lot for musicians/studios to lose, both monetarily and musically.

I suppose I've dated myself enough for one /. posting. :-P

Strat

Re:Antique Electronics?

[ChildeRoland]

That's not about safety or getting sued, that's about fleecing the customer.

Re:Antique Electronics?

[cayenne8]

"Lots of early consumer electronics devices won't even remotely approach modern safety standards. Consider early radios and TV sets which often used a "hot chassis" (where the steel chassis was directly connected to one side of the power line as part of a system avoiding the use of an expensive power transformer)"

Yeah, I just learned about this. I've been looking to buy an old Supro guitar amp off eBay...wanted to try to hook it up with a Telecaster, and get that Jimmy Page sound for Led I and II.

I found out many of the models of these and old guitar amps are 'hot chassis'...and dangerous...especially if mixing with other equipment. I'm not skilled on working with AC items...kinda scared me off the project.

Re:Antique Electronics?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't say they're destorying what their elders had built, after all.. without their innovations, we would not neccessarly have what we have today.

Re:Antique Electronics?

[jbbernar]

Don't be ridiculous. There are used goods stores all over Japan. When I lived in Tokyo I bought all my furniture and appliances used, and used to hang out in Jimbocho, where there are literally hundreds of used bookstores, and quite a few stores selling used musical instruments.

There are TONS of shops that would be affected

[kuriharu]

..if it were true as listed. There are tens of thousands of stores that sell second hand used electronics (my father in law owns one of them) but it looks like such stuff won't be banned outright. It will keep a lot of "recycle shops" as they're called, though, from selling electronics, unless there's a workaround.

In Japan, though, there usually is. Laws like this get passed then there's typically a loophole that makes the law meaningless. My guess is that it will be easy to certify said electronics as safe, such as a license you get for maybe 300 yen or something.

Maybe the submitter wasnt joking but...

[Zantetsuken]

Who wants to bet the Japanese govt people behind this planned it out as a big April fools joke - I'm not saying its the kind of joke where they go "haha just joking" and stop whatever would have happened. They'll go through with it, it'll just be the kind of joke like "haha, we fucked you over goood!" to all the Japanese citizens that like old electronics (dont know how many there is, but gotta be at least some...)

Re:Maybe the submitter wasnt joking but...

[kuriharu]

That would be cool if it were a joke.

Japan's fiscal year starts on April 1. I guess it's like a big joke on the taxpayers.. :)

Re:Maybe the submitter wasnt joking but...

[Zantetsuken]

"I guess it's like a big joke on the taxpayers..."

My point exactly... :(

Assholes.

[FusionDragon2099]

They just want to keep us from buying their old Super Famicoms.

Not as big a threat to second-hand resale

[toybuilder]

I suspect the deadline is not focused on second-hand resale of used products; instead, it is aimed more toward first-time ("new") sales of products from inventory that was designed and manufactured before the current DENAN safety law.

While many consumer goods are "perishable" because new models/features/prices are obsoleting older ones, there are some mature products that might have been manufactured years ago, are stock piled in the warehouses, and just continue to trickle out (instead of being actively manufactured). (I'm thinking of $15 clock radio's that one picks up at RiteAid as an example of such a product...)

There is a similar issue going on in CE markets with RoHS (Reduction of Hazardous Substance) -- products manufactured and sold today can still contain lead and other hazardous substances, but come July 1 (this year), that will no longer be allowed. So any inventory in the factory or warehouses that do not conform will be banned, even though it might have been manufactured well before the RoHS deadline...

those clever bastards

[goarilla]

that's an easy way to get Japan M$ Vista ready

Politicians will have a ball with this

[cnerd2025]

Instead of those semi-legitimate ads about supporting terror with drugs...we opted for stupid and illegitimate ads equating content "piracy" with terrorism. Now we'll have ill-conceived ads about supporting terror with electronics. Here goes (feel free to add/subtract anything from here):

"If you buy hardware from Japan, you ::hint ambiguity:: may be supporting terrorists on the black market. So now you will be stealing money from those hard-working hardware manufacturers [who are compensated duly in sweat-shops] and will be helping those second-hand dealers who are enemies of the state! What's next? Stealing music and "content" from the corporations publishing music? Please don't take level the playing field with corporations; they're meant to take advantage of you."

Garbage dumps full of perfectly good stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

I grew up in Japan --I'm an American who grew up on military bases in Japan.
I remember seeing perfectly good TV's and stereos sitting on the curb with the trash.
It's a weird cultural thing that they buy new stuff and it's sort of shameful if you sell the old one or something.

Hi ho pirate ship

[shoptroll]

Do CD/DVD/VHSs count under this? If so I sense a quick rise in pirating video game soundtracks, and anything anime related.

This sucks!!

[adachan]

How am I ever gonna get all those Capcom B boards now!!!!

How did they convince Japan?

[epp_b]

I never new **AA's "convincing" power was that strong. Now, how does the Yen compare to the Dollar again?

It is really all about liability

[Anonymous Coward]

This is really all about shifting the liability for old electronics that are resold from the original manufaturer to the reseller. It is actually fairly trivial to certify electrical goods you sell, but as a result you become liable if damages are caused by the devices you certify, not the original manufaturer.

Great need a buyer?

[mattr]

Sounds like a nice little business. I live in Tokyo, do you have anything you want me to try and sell?

Looks like Ebay...

[selvan]

...is going to have a LOT more Japanese electronics on auction now.

Who is going to pay to certify them?

[tepples]

This only applies to products that carried MAINS voltages. (Products with wall-warts limit the high voltage to the wall, and are completely unaffected.)

How are you sure that the definition of "carried" in the law doesn't include the short distance that the 100VAC travels inside the wall-wart or from the outlet through the plug to the wall-wart? What good is a used Famicom, Super Famicom, or N64 if you can't buy a working power supply for it? And doesn't, say, the PlayStation 1 (not the smaller PSOne) have an internal power supply?

Even then, the old products might have been designed above the standard, and therefore could still be sold anyway.

Who is going to pay to certify them as "hav[ing] been designed above the standard"?

Re:Who is going to pay to certify them?

[SydShamino]

How are you sure that the definition of "carried" in the law doesn't include the short distance that the 100VAC travels inside the wall-wart or from the outlet through the plug to the wall-wart?

Oh, it does, absolutely...to the wall-wart manufacturer. Wall-warts are completely separate products from completely separate vendors. Electronics companies use them because it means that they - the electronic company - don't have to mess with voltage safety certification.

Your old Nintendo SuperNEDS64, with its 12 VDC input, is completely immune to this ruling. But if you do try to sell it, tell the buyer they have to go down to the store and buy a new wall-wart, because you can't sell them the one that came with the controller originally. Fortunately those things are pretty interchangeable, as the plugs are usually standard and most vendors publish the voltage and current ratings on the product, making it easy to find an exact (but safer) replacement.

Re:Who is going to pay to certify them?

[tepples]

Wall-warts are completely separate products from completely separate vendors.

But when a wall wart is sold in the same box as a video game console, the entire package becomes a product of the console maker.

Your old Nintendo [console], with its 12 VDC input, is completely immune to this ruling. But if you do try to sell it, tell the buyer they have to go down to the store and buy a new wall-wart

Unless stores no longer carry wall-warts for classic Nintendo systems because there is not enough of a demand for anyone to pay to certify them. Besides, many consoles such as the original PS1 and original PS2 have an internal power supply.

Fortunately those things are pretty interchangeable, as the plugs are usually standard

Except for Nintendo video game consoles. Those tend to have rawther proprietary power plugs as a form of vendor lock-in.

Re:If I were president...

[DECS]

I vote for not you

amateur radio certs

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone will get certified to certify old amateur radios and other ham equipment. I just hope for their sake that it doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Also it is the sale of old equipment, not donation, repair, etc.

Re:If I were president...

[Anonymous Coward]

I know you're only trolling, but if you were to visit the memorial museum in Hiroshima (sited only a few hundred meters from the epicenter of the blast) I doubt you'd find nuke jokes funny any more. I don't.

GOVT are worse than MAFIA

[cheekyboy]

What fraudsters!!!

A 2000 PC is still ok. Can be sold, electronic LAWS, as in phyisics laws do not change.

All poliliticians are fraudster mafia con artists.

Go beyond the law, and be true with MORALS, go against the law! do what you like.

Choose life, choose freedom, choose not to listen to govt morons in suits, choose to do drugs,
choose piracy even if it isnt piracy but civil disobedience, but not unlawfullness. Choose truth.
Choose passion. Choose your right to say to suits - F- YOU- OFF.

Choose truth.

Choose freedom.

Choose for you self, because politicians are people that are not good at any thing. They are not managers of society.
They are morons.

Have more people have sex...GEE

[cheekyboy]

Just have morathon sex parties, ban condoms, dont they get it....

Try and be moral and boring and right, and there is no sex, no new kids, no babies, no population growth.

Legalize nude beaches, nude outdoors, nude 24/7 any where, any time with any one >18 or whatever was the law in 1955.

Stop being an old prud. Mix up the hormones and genital parts.

Re:Have more people have sex...GEE

[jandrese]

People in the nudist lifestyle don't get more sex than regular people though. Opening up nudity 24/7 will just make people more comfortable with it, not make them more horny all of the time. An important part about building sexual tension is to deny the other person something while giving them something else. If you give away almost everything at once you'll have nothing left to build tension with.

For as much effort as people put into supressing sex, it's ironically hard to make people have more sex.

Re:Have more people have sex...GEE

[Anonymous Coward]

You have it all backwards. Check out America. The Liberal lifestyle leads to very few kids. It is the religious rural folks that are popping out the 10 kid families. Want to demonstrably raise childbirth rates? Teach abstinence only programs.

Another method is to subsidise Lady's night at bars. Alcohol initially breaks down to a substance similiar to testosterone which plays a role in arousal. Women are less accustomed to the effects of so much in their system that they become more aroused more quickly. So free drinks for the ladies all around. Men on the other hand need moderation. The overload of testosterone like substance suppresses natural production and so they end up with an undersupply next day. Also testosterone breaks down into estrogen (used by the male brain) but with an undersupply it has a tendency to feminize over long periods of time. Which is why male alcoholics of 40 years have breasts. Not to mention too much alcohol at the party impairs the physical function of arousal. In males that is something artificial lubrication can't solve.

XBOX made in 2004!! duhh!

[cheekyboy]

Hey dude, its easy to add a digita audio out to an xbox, even though MS
could have for less than one dollar.

But duhh... the damn big wigs, want us to buy a $45 addon crap to do it, when
I can build a soldered addon that costs $1 to do it.

$45 * 3m people = damn I wish I had that cash my self, so if i cant, i wont buy it, ill make it my self.

yeah japan engines are HOT

[cheekyboy]

Yeha, my friend did that with a jap car, got a cool 250kw engine for peanuts really. New car is like 60% more
powerfull. The japanese sent the whole 1/3rd front of the car in whole, ie like it was sliced by a laser, so you
get everything. Just like a heart transplant of an olympian into an old babby boomer.

Nah, it's about the cost.

[FatSean]

Children are really expensive these days. Everything in general is expensive, then add on the over-wrought hype about 'child safety' and the expensive programs started to increase 'child safety' through taxes...

And people can either have a life or raise children. Can't have both any more.

Re:Nah, it's about the cost.

[TFGeditor]

"And people can either have a life or raise children. Can't have both any more."

Give the parent a gold star, a kewpie doll http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kewpie_doll, a cigar, and a +9 Insightful.

This is great (for old analog junkies like me)

[Ancient_Hacker]

Super! Attention Japanese folks: I will take off your hands any old Nakamichi Dragons (OP: $5600), no charge for displsal. Same deal for any Amiritsu spectrum analyzers (>$4000 each). No charge.

Re:This is great (for old analog junkies like me)

[Nonillion]

I like the way this guy thinks.... :)

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Already happens in the UK, no big deal

[evilandi]

Similar legislation already exists in the UK. It is illegal for a retailer to sell anything second-hand which plugs into the mains which has not passed a Portable Appliance Test. A PAT is also required on almost every mains-powered electrical item in the workplace (computers, monitors etc), usually once every 4 years, unless it is for a high-risk industry such as construction in which case the PAT requirement can be as frequent as every 3 months. Furthermore most charities, schools and so forth will not accept donations of mains electric items which don't have a recent PAT.

What is possibly new about the Japanese legislation is that the article doesn't distinguish between mains-powered and battery-powered items. I expect this has simply been lost in translation; ie. the article is missing this vital information, and in fact the law does indeed only apply to mains-powered items and not battery-powered ones. I can't imagine any government would see safety risks in a battery-powered handheld game.

Sounds Familiar

[trongey]

I read a story once about about something like this. It was about a society where everything was driven by massive consumerism. Everybody bought new stuff all the time.
I think it was written by some guy named Huxley.

So what else is new

[ibm1130]

Well what would you expect from a country where five years after you purchase a new automobile you have to pay a team of gummint "inspectors" something of the order of US$5K
to "inspect" your vehicle. This is widely believed to be a ploy designed to force people to purchase new automobiles every 5 years or so. Good for the manufacturers, sucks to be a Japanese consumer though. Any politician who tried that here would wind up hanging from a lamp pole.

Washer/Dryer

[typical]

As far as regular consumers go, this regulation is not a big deal in Japan. Many Japanese would prefer buying new hardwares/appliances to buying them used (the same goes to automotives).

I dunno. I can think of some things that people normally use for a long time that it's often worthwhile to buy used (at least in the US). Expensive food processors (KitchenAid/Cusinart). Refrigerators. Washers and dryers. I don't know whether there's a market for old power tools, but I'm sure that many people have tools that are more than five years old. I know that some people love vintage audio gear.

eBay is popular because it's so much more efficient, even with all the worrying about reputation and scams and so forth, than just throwing things out and buying new.

It's more efficient for a society to allow people to use used if they want. To force someone to buy new just forces consumers to pour some more of their money into the retail and manufacturing industry instead of on other things that they might like more.

The Stimulate The Electronics Industry Act of 2006

[MattGWU]

Oh please...it's not about safety! They want you to buy new stuff to help the economy. They don't want you to buy a perfectly good Foo for x Yen from some guy. They want you to buy a brand new Foo for 5x Yen from a company who will then be paying taxes on the sale. The corperations wins, the government wins. Everybody wins. Maybe the consumer doesn't win as much, but that's not important.

Now granted, Japanese consumer culture generally favors new over old...ever see an old car in Japan? Of course not...they're hidiously expensive to get recertified. Thanks, of course, to the Stimulate The Automobile Industry Act of A Few Decades Ago.

Is this why Japanese men never smile?

[mistergin.net]

And the women always seem to be smiling twice as much?

Cultural ignorance aside, I too would be yelling and pissed all the time if I had to buy new electronics all over again!

Second that.

[mosel-saar-ruwer]

If only I had some mod points... and maybe an account. It's so true. Though to be honest, it seems even split around here for political alignment in that type of person.

Second that - and I had some mod points a few days ago.

Just Damn on this one: Which explains all the old unsafe at any speed horribly polluting cars at the weekend cruise nights owned by the upper middle class people who typically vote Democrat and are in favor of those laws against unsafe and polluting cars. As long as they aren't theirs. They also tend to drive huge honkin SUVs during the week. In that attrocious color known as Hunter Green..

Pianos

[joschm0]

I heard for years that it's also illegal to sell used pianos in Japan. I think that a lot of used pianos are shipped from Japan to the US to be sold.

This will happen elsewhere too

[cyberbian]

ringing in the new TPM (read thought police monitor) future! all hail our new leaders! steve heil! bill heil!

emmanuel goldstein (2600) is already the enemy of the party.

time for my two minute hate

DRM enforcement ploy, that's what!

[iamcf13]

What else could it be?

Making resale of old electronic devices illegal will make sale of DRM-crippled electronics mandatory...possibly worldwide! :(

Stock up on DRM-free electronic devices now and use them with loving care.... :)

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"It is a brand in the lamp of Gare. "

[Anonymous Coward]

"It is a brand in the lamp of Gare. "
It is not possible to circulate if the seal written PSE in the lamp of Gare is pasted or it carves and it doesn't put up with PSE when becoming April 1, 2008 in Japan.
This law to which April, 2001 came into effect arose by the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry to obligate security to the manufacturer to prevent the accident such as home appliance. Manufacturers and the importer should put the PSE mark inspecting it beforehand, and the one without the mark is supposed not to be able to be sold. The transgressor becomes the penalty or the prison sentence of 100 million yen or less in the corporation. To tell the truth, this law is doubtful that the trader who understands the thing that a used product enters in application after this year and sells a used product panics and the second-hand goods application was inadvertently decided recently. An industrial ministry to panic at unexpected repulsion began to consider the idea applied as for "If manufacturer's written report was done and inspected in the Middle Ages, it is possible to sell it". The method is the one said that it is necessary to carve the stamp of PSE when the voltage of 1000V is applied to all the power supply codes including the lamp of Gare with the side of work of art, too, and the resisting pressure examination is cleared. Moreover, there is a possibility that it is not possible even to inspect it if the parts where all electricitys including an original power supply code are passed are not exchanged. This law is a blasphemy to all antiquities to which the power supply code including the lamp of Gare attaches, and like possibly scribbling on Gioconda with the dry ink. The recycling Riyus age when the spirit from Japan "mottainai" began to be paid attention at last seems retrogression Achou. Please cooperate to report it ahead of time because even the restriction beginning is about another month in most consumer electronics.

Because English was not understood, it translated by the translation service. When the
solution doesn't borrow easily, I'm sorry.