TiVo to Drop Lifetime Service Plan

Thomas Hawk writes "TiVo held their most recent analyst conference call today and on the call announced that they will be dropping their lifetime subscription option as well as offering three new monthly no upfront fee TiVo plans combining their box and service for one year, two year and three year commitments. Additionally they announced that their highly anticipated Series 3 HDTV standalone model with CableCARD support will not be available until after "mid year," a new retail partnership with Radio Shack and the fact that the company is in solid discussions with other cable operators for deals similar to their previously announced Comcast initiative."

Comments

Is Tivo still relevant?

[Ritz_Just_Ritz]

Now that they're cutting back on services and making it more difficult to avoid commercials, surely there must be a better service out there...

Is there?

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[Anonymous Coward]

MythTV, buddy - completely free and far too difficult for years now!

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[jtdennis]

How exactly are they making it more difficult to avoid commercials? I still fast forward through them just like before. The only change I've noticed is more commercials support Tivo's "press thumbs up for more info" thing if you do watch them.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[bender647]

Now that they're cutting back on services and making it more difficult to avoid commercials, surely there must be a better service out there...

Cue the hordes of homebrew PVR links...

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[Ironstud]

I think the complaints you have are revelant, but to the early adopters to TiVo series 1 there aren't these problems. My unit will be 7 years old this December and no problems. I got to mod the box with a bigger hard drive and with then lifetime service for $50 after rebate. I never had any problems. There are even projects doing what TiVoToGo does today like MPlayer. I would say get an older unit from eBay. The kicker is they have to support it and the OS had not needed any upgrades since verison 3.

Because of TiVo's first success there are now MythTV, Snapstrean. and Miscrosoft's Media Center. Imatition is a form of flattery.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[adsl]

Sadly IMHO TIVO have now priced themselves out of the market. ReplyTV is, I understand, morphing from hardware to a software offered product (I use them with a Lifetime service fee paid). I also use various PC offerings with FREE electronic guides. It wouldn't surprise me if either Yahoo or Google spotted this opening and bought a software provider and offered the service via PC media type center softeware. Sad really in some ways that TIVO seems to be walking the plank of their own volition.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[llortepud]

I found GB-PVR to be perfect for me. I dual boot between Ubuntu and windows xp. When I installed Ubuntu I thought when I got MythTV running I would rarely boot into windows.

But since it was so difficult to get MythTV installed and configured (I eventually got it semi-working) I installed GB-PVR and it just worked (and free too, although I will donate since it is such a good program).

And it is because of GB-PVR that I now rarely boot into linux. (My TV is right next to my computer and I use it as my media center)

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[ScrewTivo]

I just don't get it. Tivo screwed up my lifetime subscription years ago and tried to get me to "buy a lifetime subscription" There was no getting through to them that I already had one that was in place for over 1 year. Funny how it was past the time where they would give me a refund on the box (thieves!). It was a business gift so Icould not produce the receipt nor would I go to the person that game it to me.

I admit at the time I really missed the box but was not about to give in.

But since I have had DishTV -- Free recorder, Brighthouse cable --- Free HD recorder. So where does the need for this crappy TIVO come from?

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[shmlco]

Personally, they're going in the wrong direction. I've wanted to buy a box, but didn't want to get locked into yet another subscription model. Especially for some TV listings it takes pennies a month to provide.

What they SHOULD have done is offer the listing service for free, as an enticement to buy the hardware. But no, they got greedy and gloomed onto the razor and blade model. "We can get those suckers to pay us FOREVER!"

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[leenoble_uk]

Not being in the US I don't really know what is broadcast along with your TV signals, but I'm assuming all that the Tivo subscription provides is an electronic programme guide and the ability to find things you like based on rankings and previous preferences. Is that right? Because that just sounds like a complete rip off to me. Everybody in the UK goes on about "rip-off Britain" but it seems you're getting stung worse than us. Our Freeview digital broadcasts come with an EPG for free and I see no reason why all the clever stuff that Tivo provide can't go on at the box level, no suscription should be necessary.
I've got a Topfield 5800 PVR which has the ability to run applications (TAPs) downloaded from the interweb. They're generally open source and free and they are getting very close to offering the Tivo experience without the need for a subscription. Do you have this possibility in America?

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[devilsadvoc8]

ReplyTV. I have two units. Work flawlessly. Fortunately I have one older model with excellent software which detects and skips commercials quite well. Plus, it connects to my wireless network easily. I transfer shows to my pc and burn on DVD.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[Anonymous Coward]

Meh...I just run cable through my computer. It lets me do the exact same thing as Tivo...for free.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[tjark]

It's a pity the freeview EPG is utterly rubbish. It doesn't have the metadata in it that a TiVo uses to make it a PVR, rather than a video recorder.
The Topfield tries, but is crippled by i) a dire user interface and ii) lack of programme metadata.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[leenoble_uk]

That's where the TAPs come in. I'm not saying it is perfect by any means but there are ways of gathering all the metadata. I use rt2mei which grabs the data from the Radio Times website. This includes things like genre and episode number and very long descriptions. If you have it connected to a computer via a serial cable I gather you can have it update automatically. Myself I copy the data over each week via USB.
It will only be a matter of time before something like MyStuff or JAGs (both TAPs to the uninitiated) can use this information to record programmes LIKE the ones you like watching.
Out of the box I admit the Topfield EPG leaves a lot to be desired but the expandability of the box makes it very tidy indeed. I recommend MyStuff.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[tjark]

I spent two months struggling with a Topfield, experimenting with TAPs (even having a go at writing one) and going through all the crap you've described. It comes down to more hastle than using a VCR and watching stuff live *ugh*.

TAPs, although part of what attracted me to the system in the first place, just aren't good enough. Essentially they are a way of getting round the big deficiencies in the Topfield software - but a TAP has to strugle against the system all the way.

I went back to a TiVo with relief.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[Sethb]

There are two REALLY big blunders that TiVo is making with this new pricing model:

1. The box is only warrantied for 1 year, but you can be under contract for up to 3! If the box dies on you 13 months into your contract, you're stuck either paying for 23 more months of service on a box you can't use, or paying TiVo a fee to swap your box for a refurbished model and move your service to it.

2. Hidden away in the fine print (but mentioned at the TiVoCommunity.com forums) is that the monthly fee you're paying doesn't automatically go down to the $12.95/month "service-only" option once your contract period is up. You have to call TiVo and request that it be lowered to save yourself the extra monthly fee, which is buying you NOTHING, not even warranty coverage. It's a win-win for them, no one had to do the new coding in their billing system, and they get to take advantage of everyone too busy to note exactly what month they purchased their TiVo in.

I've been a huge TiVo fanboy, I've owned 6 boxes since 2000, and have referred enough friends and family to TiVo to earn a 140 hour box, a Nikon digicam, and an iPod Shuffle, but I think my love affair may be coming to an end over this. I'm already suffering through using a Motorola HD DVR on my HDTV, and was planning on getting the HD TiVo later this year when it was introduced, but now I'm sorely tempted to get a Microsoft Media Center box instead, as it'll work with my Xbox 360...

At a minimum, TiVo really needs to warranty the box for as long as the contract is in effect, and swap it out for NO CHARGE when one breaks, they also need to automatically revert the charge to the "service-only" option after the contract has expired.

Fortunately, TiVo breakdowns are pretty rare, but they do happen. I lost a hard drive in my Toshiba DVD/TiVo box after it was only 5 months old, and I lost a modem in my 20 Hour Series 1 box in 2001. The Toshiba was replaced under warranty, and I hacked in an ethernet card to repair the Series 1 box.

I used to easily defend TiVo's monthly fee by pointing out that not only did they have to pay for guide data, but they had to pay for ISP service for the boxes to dial in nighly to retrieve guide data. Now that most of the people I know have their TiVos hooked to their home network, it's a lot harder to defend...

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[blakestah]

No company selling PVRs will ever make it easier to avoid commercials. It would be equivalent to committing corporate Hari-Kari. You cannot look the big money in the eye and stab them in the back at the same time.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[leenoble_uk]

More hastle[sic] than a VCR?

I've probably used my VCR to record something off TV about 10 times in the last 5 years precisely because it is so much hassle either having to stick to 4hrs maximum storage capacity or use multiple unlabelled tapes which I have to scan through to find anything. I've no longer got any interest in storing recorded programming on a long term basis so I don't have a DVD recorder. The PVR is far easier than any VCR I ever used. Find a programme in the guide and hit record, no VideoPlus(TM) numbers, no barcodes (yes I had a video which used those), no clock programming.

Whatever reason you may have for not liking the Toppy I think being more hassle than a VCR is a bizarre one. IMO

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[blakestah]

TiVO indexes the programming guide and descriptions of programs, categorizes them, and allows you to use this to set up your search and record functions. If all you want to do is record by time and date, and manually schedule each recording, then TiVO would be a waste of money. Sort of.

The thing is, TiVO is so easy to set up, even a grandmother can do it. And in business terms, that is extremely valuable.

Also, if you use some other PVR, you miss out on the TiVO experience. TiVO has broadband capabilities. You can schedule programming from your cell phone or computer. You can download shows to your iPod and watch them on a airplane, or download them to your laptop and watch them in the car.

And much more. But the untapped new advertising stream will be the kicker. When you see that little thumbs up come on while watching TV and you click through, TiVO will have gone far beyond other PVRs.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[Richard Steiner]

My ReplayTV 5040 does just that. I'd way it's around 80%-90% when it comes to skipping commercials (for most shows it works all the time, but some networks seem to use a slightly different method for delimiting commercial blocks that isn't as easily detected).

Yes, newer models aren't doing that, but that doesn't preclude people from locating and buying an older model.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[cayenne8]

"Personally, they're going in the wrong direction. I've wanted to buy a box, but didn't want to get locked into yet another subscription model. Especially for some TV listings it takes pennies a month to provide."

I agree wholeheartedly. They had pretty good specials on the Series 2 for Xmas. I bought one for my Mom and one for another friend of mine who put me up for quite awhile post Katrina.

I've gotten one and now almost a 2nd MythTV set of boxes running. My tivo is packed up in storate. I'm in hotel rooms now, and the myth box works great. I had been looking forward in the future to getting the HD Series 3 version, but, I don't like monthly fees...would rather pay it all at once. They've lost a customer here.

I'll play with my existing tivo when I get back to a home setting again...and also keep up with MythTv. When the tivo dies...I'll not be buying another one, with the possible exception that by then, they have hacked into it, and you can use it without the tivo service.

For that matter...what would stop the community from hacking a Tivo box to use the service that something like Myth uses, Zap2It? Or...could some enterprising person sell tivo guide service on their own? What would be stopping that?

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[tjark]

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough for you. If I might rephrase:

The excessive manual itervention needed to get a Topfield anywhere close to a TiVo in terms of functionality means that I may as well watch stuff live, or use a VCR for timeshifting. The TAPs which try to do it automatically don't come close. To even approach acceptible performance require processing schedules on a separate computer.

Whoever wrote the topfield software had examples available to him of how to do it right: TiVo and to a lesser extent Sky+ (and I'm sure there are other examples in the US market), and chose not to. Some of that reason is beyond his control - specifically the rubbish EPG - but there are many obvious poor design decisions in the Topfield software.

I'm glad your happy with your Topfield - it's a machine that I just can't be bothered to babysit.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[eraser.cpp]

I would have agreed with the difficult part 3 days ago, but then I watched my buddy set one up from scratch in only a few hours. And that was on cheap, dated hardware. It works well and looks beautiful, here is the guide he used.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[blakestah]

My ReplayTV 5040 does just that. I'd way it's around 80%-90% when it comes to skipping commercials (for most shows it works all the time, but some networks seem to use a slightly different method for delimiting commercial blocks that isn't as easily detected).

I stand by my Hari-Kari comment.

TiVO and ReplayTV had market shares that were much more comparable before ReplayTV committed Hari-Kari by letting users skip commercials. Who do you think pays for TV anyway? Stabbing the advertisers in the back was a bad move. The PVRs need to move to generating more ad revenue, not less, for them to be viable in the future.

That being said, I love my TiVO's 30 second skip button.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[Richard Steiner]

You said:

  "No company selling PVRs will ever make it easier to avoid commercials."

SonicBlue did precisely that with their ReplayTV 5000-series, and perhaps with earlier ones that I'm not familiar with, making your previous statement incorrect.

Not only did they make it easier to skip commercials, but they made that function automatic, the technique they used for skipping commercials was a fairly successful and effective one, and that functionality continues to be supported on those units that had it originally.

Not only that, but ReplayTV continues to support commercial skipping in their current models (which still mark the start and end of advertisements while recording, and which still allow the user to navigate directly to the end of a commercial block where show content resumes).

Besides, ReplayTV's automatic commercial-skipping capabilities had nothing to do with TiVO's larger market share (which occurred well before ReplayTV wimped out and removed the feature from its newer models).

Yes, DMR was pressured afterwards and removed some of the skipping functionality, but the deed was already done, and even its existing crippled functionality is a lot better than a simple 30-second skip button. :-)

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[Buran]

Heaven forbid a company give its paying users what they want!. That would be people like me who bought the box and are paying for the service -- gladly; nobody makes a UI and features (like season passes) that work quite as well as Tivo's -- why? Partly to watch what they want when they want, but partly also to skip ads.

If you stop giving your customers what they bought your product for, they will throw your box in the trash (or hopefully in the nearest electronics recycling bin) and stop paying your monthly fee.

That's when you find yourself staring a bankruptcy judge in the face.

That would be corporate suicide.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[milkman_matt]

How exactly are they making it more difficult to avoid commercials? I still fast forward through them just like before. The only change I've noticed is more commercials support Tivo's "press thumbs up for more info" thing if you do watch them.

Although I'll probably be outcast for this opinion, but I kinda like that more commercials are supporting the thumbs up button. Especially when you can schedule a recording of a show based on the commercial for that show playing, without jumping through any hoops or even needing to stop watching what you were watching by being moved to the TiVo menu to schedule said recording.. pretty convenient. I think that's only available in 'live tv' mode though, can't confirm, because I also usually blast through commercials still.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[blakestah]

However much you may dislike commercials, you need to come to terms with the fact that TV is not in fact free, and attempts to get TV to be free by commercial-skipping PVRs will be blocked on a large scale by the TV stations themselves under pressure from the advertisers. And if that is allowed now by the way that TV companies transition from TV to commercials, they will change. Over and over again until it is not possible. Potential investors will be shoo'ed away.

Once you embrace the advertisers as the people who actually directly pay for your TV, many more doors open, and you might even be able to increase revenue by more directly connecting consumers to the people who pay for it all.

That is the route for a successful PVR company.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[milkman_matt]

For that matter...what would stop the community from hacking a Tivo box to use the service that something like Myth uses, Zap2It? Or...could some enterprising person sell tivo guide service on their own? What would be stopping that?

I don't have the link onhand, but someone sent me a link to do just that a while back... There's all kinds of hacks for it, I'm sure you'll be able to get it to do whatever you want..

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[wizbit]

You might be thinking of tivoguide.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[Buran]

However much you may dislike commercials, you need to come to terms with the fact that TV is not in fact free

Yes, I know, I've bought two of them. I had to pay, thus I know they aren't free. I also already pay for cable service, so that isn't free either.

ttempts to get TV to be free by commercial-skipping PVRs will be blocked on a large scale by the TV stations themselves under pressure from the advertisers

Uh, how exactly do they plan to do that? They don't have active control over how I play the signal back. They can make the ads more interesting or add them to programming, which they are already doing. But I watch documentaries anyway so there's not a lot of product placement; the worst I've seen is CSI where they use, say, only Nikon cameras (this makes me very happy, as I am a Nikon dSLR user; just got a new D200!). They can't stop people from skipping ads, but the key isn't to do that. It's to make people want to view them -- and it seems to be working.

Once you embrace the advertisers as the people who actually directly pay for your TV

How can I get a refund for my new HDTV, then? I want my $1,500 back!

That is the route for a successful PVR company.

As I've said before, and as is true for any company, you give the people who actually pay what they want. TiVo gets most of its revenue from monthly subscriptions. They get a bit from investment and advertisers, but their "show ads directly from the Tivo" thing is new and I haven't run into it yet peresonally, and there isn't anywhere near as much advertising on the Tivo box homepage as there once was ... although maybe I'm just not seeing it as I have a button on my Harmony remote set up to jump directly to the Now Playing list.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[triffid_98]

No company selling PVRs will ever make it easier to avoid commercials. It would be equivalent to committing corporate Hari-Kari. You cannot look the big money in the eye and stab them in the back at the same time.

In the future that may not matter as much as you think. Now that digital effects have become dirt cheap networks are supplementing their commercials with popup advertising during the show. TNT is even dubbing in sound. If it becomes simple enough for the average consumer to block the full screen commercials, you know what is coming next.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[megarich]

The box is only warrantied for 1 year, but you can be under contract for up to 3! If the box dies on you 13 months into your contract, you're stuck either paying for 23 more months of service on a box you can't use, or paying TiVo a fee to swap your box for a refurbished model and move your service to it.

That was one of my biggest concerns when I picked up my tivo box a year and a half ago. The only reason I was concerned is because Tivo was a experiment for me to see if I would like it(as this is my first box) and I wanted the lifetime option(which I did end up doing). I was concerned about the box dying on me 366 days later and then me being assed out $300 dollars in investing in the life time plan. Now that I'm near the break even point(the money saved from me doing the lifetime option as compared to monthly payments) it doesnt bother me anymore.

To add I enjoy my Tivo experience and so long as I can fast forward commericials, record my favortie programs and tranfer those programs on my computer as Tivo allows you to(with some caveats of course) I'll remain happy. Wether I'll be a loyal Tivo customer depends upon how long this box lasts and the next subsequent box I'll get....

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[cayenne8]

"You might be thinking of tivoguide."

I just checked out the links...looks like it was given over to a group in Canada..that plans on taking it down pending Tivo coming in CA officially.

That makes me curious tho....it is against some 'law' to supply your own tivo, YOUR hardware that you bought, to use a different service???? I don't recall ever signing anything committing me to only use Tivo service for the rest of my life?

Hell, I think you only commit these days if you want the discount usually offered, but, I don't think there is anything binding they could say if you just bought the hardware and fed it with your own service.

If this be the case...I wonder why the Canadian site is saying they won't give info about running a Tivo without a guide when Tivo officially comes to Canada??

Surely this is no DMCA type law being broken here...?

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[dgatwood]

Yup. I can now officially say that I will never buy a TiVo again. No lifetime service = no sale. I had recommended that my parents buy one, but if they make this change, I won't recommend it to them, either.

I am SO freaking glad I don't own any TiVo stock right now. Buh-bye.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft dropped the subscription fee for their electronic program guide service. i foresee some Tivo users switching over soon.

http://www.microsoftprogramguide.com/home.aspx

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[blakestah]

If you make it easy for the TV watcher to skip commercials, commercials will change.

The only reason TV exists in the way it does today is commercials.

ReplayTV has seen miniscule market growth compared to TiVO in large part because advertisers view ReplayTV as antagonistic and TiVO as friendly.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[Anonymous Coward]

And that was on cheap, dated hardware.

I'd think this went smoothy because it was cheap and dated hardware. Since it's probably widely in use for some time now, kernel, driver and mythtv developers had plenty of time to iron out any bugs.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[JourneymanMereel]

I have to admit, that's a pretty slick feature, no doubt about it. I wonder where the TiVO gets it's information about what comercial is playing and if it's available to other PVRs. I mean, I can see why TiVO would want to make the "More Info" thing a TiVO only feature, but it seems that it would be in the intrest of the networks to offer it as an open standard.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm the AP from above.

I said "far too difficult" 'cause I've set up MythTV from scratch, twice and I know. I've lived with and enjoyed MythTV for a little over a year.

I'm about to go again as a true client-server system with HD and a silent playback machine in the TV room.

MythTV is wonderful. It is also far too difficult. Clue from your post: "guide from wilsonnet". You shouldn't need a guide.

'Till you can pop in the CD, power up your blank (or soon-to-be-blanked) computer, set up for your cable/OTA system, pick your city and go, it's still going to be too difficult to replace a TiVo outright.

MythTV suffers from the same infinite-customizability problem that the rest of the Linux world has. Nobody is willing to reduce anyone's configuration options for the sake of making a fairly large subset of the product comprehensible to someone who doesn't know what "ls -lrt" does.

But I'll never buy a TiVo. Love my MythTV.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[AnyoneEB]

As I understand it, MythTV is currently able to do automatic ad-skipping (usually) because there are some sort of indicators that a commercial is coming up. I think the suggestion was that TV stations would have an arms race over automatic ad-skipping. But you can still just have a skip 30 seconds button.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[IAmTheDave]

It works well and looks beautiful

But - and here's the kicker - does it work with CableCard or HD? Not over the air HD, but cable based HD. Because I had Tivo back when I first got digital cable from Comcast, and had the Tivo control the cable box. But once I got HD, I was left with only one single option for a DVR, and that's the Comcast supplied HD box.

You've gotta love it though - Comcast will charge you $120+ for cable and internet, more with HBO. On top of that, $5 for the cable modem, $10/month for DVR, and $10/month for the HD service. Now what is going to make me want to pay a Tivo monthly fee on top of all that, especially when it is ad and commercial ridden?

Free alternatives are nice, but until they can play in the HD arena, I'm SOL.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[wizbit]

TiVo hackers have in the past taken great pains not to offend TiVo corporate so as to continue to promote legitimate use of the box (and surely to avoid lawsuit and/or TiVo making the thing harder to hack) but still provide helpful services for hobbyists interested in tinkering with them.

I recall a lot of sites devoted to ghosting the TiVo drive and hacking the thing also saying they specifically would NOT provide instructions on how to circumvent the TiVo subscription model, and I imagine the numerous software upgrades pushed out to the Series 2 box I own has made it more difficult to crack than it used to be on the Series 1 machines. Probably the Canadian site felt they HAD to provide that kind of material so they could get Canadian TV listings, but now that TiVo is providing proper support for Canadian users, it's no longer strictly necessary to dump the TiVo subscription, even though that definitely appeals to me and plenty of others...

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[Richard Steiner]

That might be why mainstream solutions never seem to satisfy me. I would rather use a less popular solution which has enough of a user base to stay afloat and that actually provides the level of functionality that *I* want than a more popular solution which is more interested in catering to the Powers That Be than to its own user base.

ReplayTV is the OS/2 of the DVR world. There are more sophisticated solutions out there like MythTV variants (a Linux/Unix analog), but most of them are more trouble than they're worth except to the devoted hobbyist or professional, and the more visible solutions (TiVO, aka Windows) are missing at least some functionality when compared head-to-head but gain market acceptance due to a dumbed-down UI and popularity in the media.

TV, as it exists today, obtains revenue from a variety of sources, but I have no obligation to assist them in obtaining more. I'd rather pay for things that I find convenient and let the rest of it rot. :-)

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[crbowman]

I have been really really happy with my ReplayTV and it's automatic commercial skip. Not sure that model is still available.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[steveg]

It's not. And the commerical skip feature is why Sonic Blue no longer owns ReplayTV. They got spanked.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[Buran]

The detectors work by watching for the screen to go totally blank for more than a certain amount of time and/or the sound to fade out.

Tivo just does it via a 30-second skip button, which is fine with me. Automatic detection algorithms are rarely perfect anyway.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[Anonymous Coward]

of course, since phone companies, cable companies, cell phone companies, isps, and mortgage companies, etc., all automatically transfer their clients to the best priced options available after your contract ends since they enjoy making less money. it's how the market works, dude. set a reminder on your calendar and feel smart when you call in to get a better deal.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[Fulcrum of Evil]

It would be equivalent to committing corporate Hari-Kari.

What the hell is that, a new dance step?

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[Snaller]

Yeah right, requires linux and mysql - that's to difficult right there.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[Snaller]

However much you may dislike commercials, you need to come to terms with the fact that TV is not in fact free,

You also need to come to terms with the fact that there are many more channels that there need to be, and that most actors, directors etc are earning a sick amount of money - if they got a lower decent salery you could make tv much cheaper. I'll avoid commercials for ever, and if that one day means no more tv, well the loss wasn't that great.

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[Anonymous Coward]

eat my $hit

Re:Is Tivo still relevant?

[blakestah]

Kind of my point. The advertisers have to pay to reach the audience. If the audience starts avoiding the advertiser, TV will change.

BTW, with TV going to pop-up ads, think about how lucrative an interactive pop-up ad will be, which can be done with a PVR and broadband connection like TiVO or DirecTV's PVR....

MythTV

[Anonymous Coward]

MythTV (www.mythtv.org) is looking better and better.

Re:MythTV

[CRCulver]

Wouldn't MythTV require a TV tuner card for one's computer that would cost the same as a TiVo? And with the TiVo, at least you get to watch shows on your nice big-screen TV, while MythTV would have me viewing shows on my not-so-hot laptop screen.

Re:MythTV

[Iphtashu Fitz]

You obviously don't know a whole lot about MythTV. Yes, you need to buy a tuner card, but at the same time you can display it on a regular TV. In fact I have mine hooked up to my 42" HDTV and the display looks great.

Re:MythTV

[Andy Social]

A MythTV box will cost more than a TiVo, based on their new three-year plan. It will work on your television, not just your computer - the MythTV software is intended to be used on a standalone computer that is dedicated to DVR functions.

The benefit over TiVo for most users is that MythTV doesn't lock you into someone else's content control system. The stories about abuses from the makers of the devices or from the studios, abetted by the makers, are not hard to find. As Cory Doctorow says, nobody woke up this morning wanting their DVR to do less than it did yesterday. Yet, that's exactly what you are agreeing to allow when you buy a TiVo or use a Windows Media PC - someone else has more rights on your machine than you do.

Now, outside the DRM realm, another important issue that makes MythTV attractive is expandability. Yes, TiVo is hackable, but it's not meant to be hackable easily. My particular MythTV box has two tuners, and room for at least two more (I could actually have eight if I went with dual-tuner cards). TiVo has one tuner. A settop DVR from a cable or satellite company usually has two tuners, but you can't add more.

And if you're reading Slashdot, you're probably willing to play with your toys anyway, right? MythTV is fun. :-)

Re:MythTV

[Sven The Space Monke]

You don't even have to have the machine with the tuner hooked up to ANY display. I've got one running in a closet (the drives & fans make too much noise to be in the same room as a TV), with the frontend running on a modded Xbox. If I wanted to, I could put in more tuners and have multiple frontends all watching different shows on live TV, or browsing through what has been built up to be a rather considerable library. I'd like to add the Torrentocracy plugin, but I can't seem to get it to work with 0.19.

Re:MythTV

[pla]

A MythTV box will cost more than a TiVo, based on their new three-year plan.

Horsepucky!

IF and only if you include the price of a full PC, the costs come out comparable (for $469, you can build a damn fine low-end PC). Tuner cards cost well under $100, and you don't need a monitor (since you would presumeably use this with an existing TV, and if not, you'd need to consider that in the price of a TiVo as well).


Until now, Myth and the like have served a niche audience of people who would tend to have a decent PC in their livingroom anyway, and for an extra $50 could also use it as a PVR. This move has shifted the balance even for people wanting a dedicated DVR in their TV room - You could even go so far as to buy a cheap-ass Dell and throw in a capture card for less than the 3-year plan.

Re:MythTV

[Paul Carver]

I wish I could get my MythTV box fully functional. I've spent far more on it over the years than I have on my Tivo and it still doesn't measure up. It can do more "stuff" but it does it in a much less polished way. In this latest attempt, the IR receiver on my PVR350 doesn't work, though it did work in a previous incarnation.

The core MythTV documentation is severely lacking. There are lots of good tutorials out there, but since every tutorial focuses on a specific set of hardware you can waste a lot of time if you have slightly different hardware than the tutorial.

Anybody know how to keep my MythTV box from locking up when the disk gets full? I have a separate partition just for recordings, but MythTV can't seem to figure out that it should delete old ones when the partition is full. I never had to configure my Tivo to handle this very obvious issue.

I keep working on my MythTV box because I know that my series 1 Tivo will fail someday, but unless there are some major improvements in the MythTV documentation and code I expect that I'll keep using my Tivo until it dies.

Re:MythTV

[massysett]

The only thing about MythTV is that it takes technical know-how. It's great if you've got that know-how; other folks will just use Tivo, or one of these DVRs that the cable operators offer now.

Re:MythTV

[Doctor Faustus]

The hard drives on your Series 1 will fail someday. Weaknees sells replacement drives (with the TiVo image), though, and you can pick up some more capacity, too.

Re:MythTV

[jargoone]

Good to know I'm not the only one having problems. I have tried 3 different distributions (some of them 2-3 times each!), sometimes following tutorials, sometimes not, with different results each time. The common thread between the results is that something doesn't work right when I'm done. You hit the nail on the head: the core documentation absolutely sucks.

I've spent a ton of time on it, and even if I get it to work, I still have to train my wife. She gets the TiVo interface just fine, but even I don't understand why Myth does things how it does sometimes.

I'm about ready to just eBay the hardware and get the cable company's HD PVR. Yeah, the interface sucks, but I don't have as much time for this crap anymore.

Re:MythTV

[havardi]

Indeed, after I got my box working with the TV and all, we bought an iBook. Now we often just lay in bed and watch live tv or recorded shows directly over the wirelessG. Coolest stuff...

Re:MythTV

[infochuck]

MythTV can't seem to figure out that it should delete old ones when the partition is full

It certainly *can* figure it out; it's *you* who can't figure out how to turn on auto-expire.

RTFM.

Re:MythTV

[atokata]

I've got a MythTV box myself, built from odds and ends that I had laying around. What are we MythTV users going to do for digital TV, though? I admit that I've not done much research, but I keep hearing scary things about encrypted signals, broadcast flags, and other Orweillian bullshit. I'm still using just plain old analog cable-- what kind of upgrades will be in my future when the big switch happens?

Re:MythTV

[93 Escort Wagon]

"Anybody know how to keep my MythTV box from locking up when the disk gets full? I have a separate partition just for recordings, but MythTV can't seem to figure out that it should delete old ones when the partition is full. I never had to configure my Tivo to handle this very obvious issue."

Oh, come on! You mean this isn't even the default, and perhaps not even an available option? This is very, very basic expected functionality! If it doesn't do this, it's no better than a VCR!

I've listened to all the MythTV fanboy talk here for several years; you'd think it was at least somewhat user-friendly.

Re:MythTV

[bigpat]

What about something like the MediaMVP for $100
mentioned in Wired yesterday, so you could use your computer as a media center without having to dedicate it. I've never tried it, so I don't know how much bandwidth this would suck up, but a cool concept.

Re:MythTV

[james_orr]

Anybody know how to keep my MythTV box from locking up when the disk gets full? I have a separate partition just for recordings, but MythTV can't seem to figure out that it should delete old ones when the partition is full. I never had to configure my Tivo to handle this very obvious issue.

You can set how much free space you want to keep on your drive. Usually you want to set this to about the size of a 2 hour recording at your settings times the number of tuners you have.

Personally I haven't had an issue with that though, I usually just delete stuff immediately after watching it.

Re:MythTV

[Anonymous Coward]

Auto-Expire is the default on my machine, it sounds like the parent poster has turned this off.

Re:MythTV

[Anonymous Coward]

Are there any examples of Tivo doing less one dsay than it did yesterday?

Re:MythTV

[orim]

Just wanted to say - thanks for telling the truth. There are so many Linux obsessed people on Slashdot who don't realize that yes, Linux, and custom installations are a lot more work than standalone devices. They're fine if you have the expertise, and loads of time, and you use it for learning purposes, but sometimes stuff just needs to work. Out of the box. No tinkering needed.
I own a Tivo and thank god it's one device that's been working solid for 2 years without me even as much as looking at it. I hate having to troubleshoot basic appliances like this in addition to all the other crap I have going on.

Re:MythTV

[Howski]

I am having a similar issue with my PVR-350 remote. It worked on my last install, but not its function is extremely erratic. It "works" - which is to say that about every 4th, 5th, or 10th keypress is detected, but that's about it. Some of the keys don't work at all (the numeral keys in particular), and spit out gibberish when i try to generate a new lircd.conf w/ irrecord. I'm ready to start from scratch (I need to upgrade to 0.19 anyway...). I have found NO documentation for this condition online, but I'm glad to find out I am not the only one to be having such issues!

(And just to keep from being modded down offtopic) Now that I have said all that, I have used friends'/family's Tivos and they have used my MythTV box. Many of them say that my MythTV box is "cool, but I like Tivo better." And I completely understand that because, since I learned on a MythTV box rather than a Tivo, I like MythTV much better. So much so that, even with all the MythTV headaches, I have never once thought about ditching it and getting a Tivo or the Comcast/DirecTV DVR. MythTV all the way.

Re:MythTV

[cayenne8]

"Wouldn't MythTV require a TV tuner card for one's computer that would cost the same as a TiVo? And with the TiVo, at least you get to watch shows on your nice big-screen TV, while MythTV would have me viewing shows on my not-so-hot laptop screen."

Yes...you need a tuner card. The cool thing is...you can install MULTIPLE tuner cards...be recording as many shows as you want and watch a different channel at the same time if you wish.

But, no...you don't have to watch on a monitor or laptop...you can have your video card output to normal TV. Actually the great thing to do, is get a LCD TV monitor, and run it through that, or what I'm planning on doing when I get a house again, is to hook the myth box up to a DLP projector...and shoot it to a 100" screen...hard to beat that. A 100" tv, with PVR (which by the way is fantastic at automagically skipping commercials), all for less than $2K if done brand new.

And the myth box does more....through it I view the weather...can surf the web, it manages music, and dvd's...it is truely a full blown media box.

Grant it...it is often times a bit difficult to get set up and running...but, once it is...sure makes tv part of life fun.

Sounds like you need to go read a little more about it...go to MythTV

Re:MythTV

[pla]

What are we MythTV users going to do for digital TV, though?

Pay 20% more for the tuner card to import it from Canada or the UK or Taiwan or Vanuatu, who will all (in decreasing order of "give a shit what the US says to do") laugh heartily at we stupid Americans that let our Corporate Masters(tm) sell us inferior products simply by labelling them "new and improved".


I keep hearing scary things about encrypted signals, broadcast flags, and other Orweillian bullshit.

Currently, US law doesn't force the broadcast flag on anyone (and no hardware manufacturer will support a "feature" that makes their product less desireable unless forced to).

Don't rest easy on that thought, though, because that particular war hasn't ended quite yet (nor will it ever, most likely). The RIAA just started pushing congress for the same thing for digital audio, and don't think the MPAA won't support and try to extend that proposal...

But as I said, those of us who love freedom, particularly the freedom to use our posessions as we see fit, will always have the option of simply breaking the law and importing hardware that ignores such nonsense.

Re:MythTV

[jandrese]

One thing I reccomend for anybody who gets a TiVo is to wait until their warentee expires (doesn't take very long) and then crack the case and make a backup image of their hard drive. The drives will fail eventually and if you don't have a backup it's a lot harder to fix. If you have a backup, you can just run down to your local CompUSA or whatever and pick up just about any old ATA HDD, install your backup image, and put it in the TiVo.

Re:MythTV

[infochuck]

A MythTV box will cost more than a TiVo

Yes. The initial outlay for a MythTV box is greater; this is quickly made up for by TiVo's ever-increasing monthly fees and MythTV's lack of any.

Re:MythTV

[wesborgmandvm]

I am just waiting for google to release a "google video" branded version of myth that just works. The can monitory my tv viewing and sell the data (just like Tivo) and I get a free Tivo killer.

Re:MythTV

[treke]

Are you running 0.19? Auto-expire was a feature in older versions, but it wasn't the default behaviour. Due to some changes in the live tv portions of myth, auto-expire is automatically enabled.

That said, I think the hang on disk full bug was fixed in one of the 0.18 releases. I'm not absolutely sure though.

Re:MythTV

[makomk]

Are you running 0.19? Auto-expire was a feature in older versions, but it wasn't the default behaviour. Due to some changes in the live tv portions of myth, auto-expire is automatically enabled.

Yep, roughly speaking. In the older versions, it was just a question of setting a slider in the configuration to the amount of disk space you wanted to keep free; in 0.19, auto-expire is always on and it calculates the correct settings itself.

Re:MythTV

[cayenne8]

"The only thing about MythTV is that it takes technical know-how. It's great if you've got that know-how;"

Well, that's true about 'any' homebrew answer to commercial gear. Actually I think Knoppix has a Myth distro that you can almost just throw the disk in and plug and play to go...I've not tried it yet.

Actually...there might be a market for someone to sell pre-built/configured MythTV boxes....build them as turn-key systems and sell them for less that the Tivo and all its new "lock-in".

Re:MythTV

[digitallife]

I'll admit, I used to have difficulties setting up a MythTV system. Last month however, I discovered KnoppMyth. End of story for me.
It setup almost everything perfectly, and took me about 15 minutes to do. Basically the only things I had to do was run an included script to get encoded DVD to work properly (legal issue), and plunk in the right X config script.

I was seriously blown away how easy it all was.

Re:MythTV

[cayenne8]

"crack the case and make a backup image of their hard drive. The drives will fail eventually and if you don't have a backup it's a lot harder to fix."

It has been awhile since I tried researching this. Is there not a HD size limitiation for what Tivo will work with? Was it something like 120G?

Re:MythTV

[jandrese]

I think that limitation was removed in one of the updates. I forget though. When the drive in my Tivo died (after only 2 years, piece of crap drive!), 120GB was the sweet spot for drives at the time and that's what I used. Lucky thing I had the backup image handy.

Re:MythTV

[bogie]

Use a Windows PVR then. There are several Free and commercial ones available.

If your just interested in using it as a digital VCR and can afford it, then just use the cable company's PVR. If you want to do PVR/photos/music/games etc then an XP based system should fit the bill. XP MCE is very polished and only costs $110 online.

Of course the DIY PVR industry if fucked bigtime within 2-3 years due to Cablecards and DRM, but don't let that stop you from having some fun until then.

Re:MythTV

[Blakey Rat]

You're way ahead of me. I tried setting up MythTV on Ubuntu, and I couldn't even get the IVTV drivers for my Hauppauge card installed... and that's after consulting two Linux experts and about a week of tinkering.

My DishNetwork PVR might not have all the features of MythTV, but it has one feature that's pretty damned important to me: It WORKS!

Re:MythTV

[jedidiah]

It depends on how you use it.

With more and more channels going for the embedded advertising approach, or station logos that seem to take up more and more of the screen I am inclined to dump regular TV altogether and just use MythTV as a DVD jukebox.

You can watch Myth recorded programs anywhere you like. This means that you need to build a console for the living room but that's not to much of a problem. You could even net boot it.

BestBuy already sells something of this sort for Windows MCE.

Re:MythTV

[Andy Social]

I completely agree, but some folks may get the impression that a MythTV box (no subscription fee) is as cheap as a TiVo (subsidized by subscription fees).

Re:MythTV

[Flagg0204]

MythTv, Mythtv, mythtv, I am so sick an tired of hearing that Mythtv is the end all be all of PVR's. Yes it can do a lot of things that tivo can't but, Myth still can't turn the channel on my DishNetwork STB. It still cannot utilize USB-UIRT2 for Receiving and transmitting IR signals, and it still takes a lot of tweaking to get just right. Hacking my Tivo was ten times easier than doing a basic install of Mythtv and the quality of a tivo recording is better than myth, sage, beyondtv or any other software app out there. This is coming from some who ran a SageTV box for almost two years and swore to never buy a tivo. But eventually you get sick of messing with a homebrew PVR and just want something that works that you dont have to worry about updates for. Tivo provides this, and a lot better than Myth ever could.

Re:MythTV

[Anonymous Coward]

How does that work with a regular tv card? Don't tv cards just provide input to your computer and not output from your computer to a tv?

A retail partnership with Radio Shack?

[montyzooooma]

Oh dear. I love my (series 1 UK) Tivo but I knew they'd been struggling. Didn't realise it was this bad.

Re:A retail partnership with Radio Shack?

[Anonymous Coward]

There's essentially no Tivo presence in the UK anyway. They never produced S2 here, and haven't even given any hints at supporting HD.

Alas, when Sky HD comes out my Tivo (the oldest working piece of hardware I have.. 5 years old now) will have to be finally retired.

Foreboding signs

[CRCulver]

If TiVo doesn't offer lifetife subscriptions anymore, then it might just suggest that they won't be around for anyone's lifetime. The fact that they are partnering up with a retail chain on its last legs, RadioShack, doesn't bode well for its future. It's a pity to see such an inventive company put its survival into doubt.

Still, the lack of the new model until mid-year doesn't bother me much. Existing models already due everything a user could want, the Series 2 records your shows. For 40 hours. What more could you want? Although there have been some issues with build quality (see some of the reviews on the Amazon listing) that hopefully will be fixed in the next generation.

Re:Foreboding signs

[Anonymous Coward]

S3 will support HD and have dual tuners. S2 does not.

Re:Foreboding signs

[Iphtashu Fitz]

Existing models already [do] everything a user could want

Really? How do I record HD channels and display them in HD on my HDTV? How do I attach external storage without having to hack the unit? How do I record 2 channels at the same time?

Re:Foreboding signs

[BoomerSooner]

I'm not a RadioShack fan by any means but a company that has EPS of 1.78 and a P/E of 10.76, isn't that bad. Their market cap is over 2.5 Billion. Not bad in my opinion. The management fiascos of late are a problem but they will be repaired. I thought RadioShack would die in the 1980's, they are still here.

Before saying a company is on it's "last legs" maybe you should do some actual research?

Re:Foreboding signs

[Anonymous Coward]

We need to see some no- subscription required alternatives to this . Where can they be found?
  Recording Video on a hard disk should be easy

Re:Foreboding signs

[djmurdoch]

If TiVo doesn't offer lifetife subscriptions anymore, then it might just suggest that they won't be around for anyone's lifetime.

I'd say it suggests just the opposite. If I think I'll be around for a few years, then offering lifetime service is an expensive offering. First, I have to take on a long term commitment, with no long term cash flow. Second, it allows customers to lock in current subscription rates, preventing me from getting any extra cash if I raise them in the future.

If I think I'll probably be bankrupt next year, then I may as well label my one year subscription as "lifetime". Maybe I'll sell more, and it will delay the bankruptcy.

Re:Foreboding signs

[will_die]

Don't really see it that way, I see it more that they looked at the model for cell phones and figured to go that way. They have been loosing money and need to increase rates or make more sales and they are hoping for both with this. With the lower buy in costs and that is a major factor from more widespread use it is the way to go.

As for cost say you purchased a Tivo with lifetime and use it for 3 years, then upgrade to a hopfully newer model vs the new model.
Current cost: $216 for unit, $299 for lifetime, total cost :$514
New cost: $16.95 for 36 months: $610.20 and that does not factor in that you don't pay all the money upfront and the interest you could earn.

Re:Foreboding signs

[Anonymous Coward]

The Lifetime subscription is for the life of the product that you purchase. It's basically a scam.

I'm glad they are getting rid of it. Now the 1-3 year deals sound good if it lowers the overall subscription price, but $12.95 a month aint bad. I used to pay more for dialup and well, we all know how bad that sucked.

Re:Foreboding signs

[timbck2]

You buy a DirecTV HD TiVo. It will record both DirecTV HD and off-air HD signals. It will record 2 channels at the same time. As for the external storage question, well you got me there.

Re:Foreboding signs

[Rob T Firefly]

The Radio Shack I frequented in the 1980s was a place with an amazing selection of electronics, hobbyist components, how-to guides, and spare parts, and had knowledgable hackers behind the counter who shared my love of technology and were likely building just as complex gadgets in their own basements as I was.

That place is dead, replaced by a cellphone and set-top-box store with a standard retail drone behind the counter whose blank stare glazes over at the merest mention of a Zener diode or anything else that isn't their newest mobile plan.

Re:Foreboding signs

[Thing 1]

If TiVo doesn't offer lifetife subscriptions anymore, then it might just suggest that they won't be around for anyone's lifetime.

That's not how I'd expect a capitalist to run their business.

I would expect them to continue selling lifetime subscriptions up to and including the day that they file corporate bankruptcy papers.

I would also expect to see them begin to market the lifetime subscriptions more heavily.

So this, to me, does not indicate that they're going out of business any time sooner. It indicates to me that they want to maximize their revenue, and they feel that they'll be around longer than $250 / $13/month = 19.2 months or under 2 years. By no longer selling lifetime contracts, they will be net positive within two years, on new sales. And, it'll be recurring revenue, instead of a one-time income and then recurring expenses (powering the servers that serve the program guide, paying to have all those phone numbers to dial-in, etc).

Re:Foreboding signs

[mjpaci]

...and it will be worthless when DirecTV moves to MPEG-4. They may replace your unit for a small fee, but it won't be a TiVO unit.

The greatest thing about the DirecTIVO units (SD) is that it records the digital signal and then decodes it when you play back. (and you can record two shows at once while watching a pre-recorded one)

Re:Foreboding signs

[timbck2]

...and it will be worthless when DirecTV moves to MPEG-4. They may replace your unit for a small fee, but it won't be a TiVO unit.

Any idea how soon this is likely to be? It seems like we've been talking about the MPEG4 move for years, but it hasn't happened yet...

Re:Foreboding signs

[mjpaci]

From this article in PC Mag, the time frame looks like 2007.

Quote:
"Additionally, DirecTV will start providing local HD channels beginning with twelve of the largest television markets by the end of the year, and expanding to nationwide by 2007. DirecTV's aggressive push to deliver MPEG-4 HD video appears to mirror what Apple has managed to with MPEG-4 audio (AAC)--drive consumer demand and expectations."

Re:Foreboding signs

[lemonboy]

Radio Shack has been on its last leg for the last 20 years...

Re:Foreboding signs

[n1ckml007]

Tivo's "lifetime" subscription is on the lifetime of the Tivo unit, not your lifetime.

Re:Foreboding signs

[mprindle]

I agree with you 100%. I went into a RS the other day looking for a small piece I was needing that I know RS used to carry. I asked the sales guy and he looked at me like I had two heads. I finally gave up and went looking for myself. RS now a day's is nothing more than a mini Circuit City or Best Buy with most of the staff just as clueless as the big chains.

Re:Foreboding signs

[TeamSPAM]

I've been a long time TiVo user and have seen the pros and cons of a lifetime subscription. Pros: No monthly fees and will pay for itself in about 2-years. Cons: The subscription is tied to the TiVo you bought. If for any reason you want to upgrade your tivo you have to get another lifetime/monthly subscription. I always went with the monthly subscription as I didn't think I would keep a TiVo more than 3 years. I probably should've gotten a lifetime subscription for my Series 1 TiVo. I upgraded to a Series 2 with a DVD burner. I'm avoiding the lifetime subscription because I expect to upgrade the 2nd TiVo around the 2 year mark.

Honestly, I think TiVo wants to be an IP/service company. They want other companies to take on the cost of manufacturing the TiVo hardware. While they get nice licsencing and servicing fees from their partners. The lifetime subscription was good for getting early adopters on board and spreading the word. At this point they are established and need to reduce their losses.

Re:Foreboding signs

[MindStalker]

Very true, thought TiVos lifetime subscription only covers the model number you buy meaning if you upgrade you have to get a new lifetime subscription. So far this has kept them from having to deal with the long term pains, and from what I've seen most "lifetimers" are more likly to upgrade before 2 years are out (generally a lifetime subscription cost about 2 years of monthly subscriptions) anyways.

Re:Foreboding signs

[MindStalker]

powering the servers that serve the program guide, paying to have all those phone numbers to dial-in, etc).
From what I've seen more and more people are using their internet connections to get updates. Their newest models include ethernet by default don't they?

Re:Foreboding signs

[MindStalker]

Yes, you can get a tivo with no subscription right now. You just have to manually program your recordings and the suggestions don't work. Oh you want an interactive guide provided by TiVo, and periodic software updates, and customer service, and automatic suggestions? Well you're going to have to pay for those... Oh you don't want suggestions? too bad..

Re:Foreboding signs

[jfengel]

A couple of scary things on their key statistics: a debt of half-billion (and less than half that much cash on hand). And the -60% earnings growth. The low P/E is very promising, but if their earnings are falling rather than rising it's a red herring.

New management may be able to turn it around. Best of luck. I do miss the old Radio Shack, and I wish there were a Fry's around here.

Re:Foreboding signs

[Sethb]

You miscalculated in choosing the monthly fee option, I've had 6 TiVos since the year 2000, and always bought Lifetime. I've always sold those units later on eBay, or to friends, and recouped most, if not all of the Lifetime service I paid on them, which I would roll over to my next box. Lifetime service meant there was an increased value attached to your box, which you could recover when you sold it. The only time that monthly service made sense was if you knew you wouldn't have the box more than 23 months, and that you would never sell it, in any other situation, you were losing money, though if the box was your second unit, which made you eligible for $6.95/month pricing, it took more months to make Lifetime pay off...

Re:Foreboding signs

[maggard]

Nostalgia is lovely honey, but when was the last time you bought a Zener diode?

I miss my grandfather's horse whip business, but when times changed he got a filling station (all true, and the station went bust in the Depression.) Ratshack couldn't make it on the radios covered in fake fur so they looked like poodles, and the "Battery Club" never brought in THAT many folks, so they had to move on.

Radio Shack is everywhere. Something like 95% of US households are within 10 miles of a Radio Shack. 99% of all US household members wander through a Radio Shack every few years. That makes them closer then the big box stores, just the place to drop into for the odd watch battery, TV cable, or gadget gift.

Radio Shack has that to their advantage. So they went with it. No huge inventory of electronics parts taking up room that turned over every few years. Instead they can make more per square foot with bogus air ionizers, RC cars, and over-over-priced A/V & computer stuff. And now TiVo.

But ya know what? They sell! $45 for a keyboard, the same one as Best Buy for $30 and $10 online, it pays the bills. S-Video cable, hit the local RS for double the cost or go wandering the bowels of Circuit City, past the washing machines, with chirpy kids insisting to 'help' when they wouldn't know an S-Video cable if you flogged 'em with it (yes, thank you, I'm literate, I can read the labels on the store shelves for myself, no need to annoy me with your non-assistance.)

So RS stays in business. Heck, with cellphones they've even prospered. Sure I laughed out loud the day I read on the bottom of an email "Radio Shack: You've got questions - we've got blank stares. And cell phones!" but truth be told they're more convenient then a carrier's store and the staff is better then the kiosk monkeys.

This will be a smart partnership for TiVo. They'll get huge visibility, their products won't be lost in the bowels of BigCo. in the dark areas behind the giant flat panel TVs, instead front & center in every mall & burg in the US. That's what TiVo needs, now they just need to give every RS employee a TiVo for 2 months, then let 'em loose to sell away!

Re:Foreboding signs

[mpathetiq]

From TFA: Additionally, subscribers will be able to purchase the same three plans with no monthly fee at $224 for a box and one years worth of service, $369 for a box and two years of service and $469 for a box with three years worth of service.

Re:Foreboding signs

[zrk]

TiVo screwed up. they EXPECTED that people will gladly upgrade their existing units as newer and better featured models were produced. They based their lifetime subscription model on that, and tied the lifetime service to the individual units. Unfortunately for them, that is not the case, and they aren't getting the churn they expected. I purchased a series 2 with lifetime service, and I will use it until it dies. Chances are I won't buy their HD model when it arrives. I transfer recordings over to my PC, and burn them to DVD, even though TiVo forces you to buy their codec (tech-savvy users will find the free one, though).

I suspect that TiVo will face some tough times once the new HD units arrive in stores, and I don't expect them to last. Sure, they were the first major contender out of the gate, but everyone else has caught up and will soon leave TiVo to eat their dust.

Re:Foreboding signs

[Anonymous Coward]

That place is dead, replaced by a cellphone and set-top-box store with a standard retail drone behind the counter whose blank stare glazes over at the merest mention of a Zener diode or anything else that isn't their newest mobile plan.

How exactly is that bad for selling Tivos?

Think of it this way, with a little better management, why couldn't Radio Shack succeed as a large chain of mini-best buys, particularly since a lot of their locations are in malls (which right now are usually anchored by department stores like Sears, JC Penney, etc. although consolodation there is starting to change that), or strip malls that are usually anchored by 1 or 2 big stores, and a fair percentage of the time those anchors are not best buy, circuit city, or a wallmart/target etc.

I mean, I'm also sad that the Radio Shack of my youth is but a shadow of its former self, but just because a place doesn't have a wall of resistors and LEDs anymore doesn't mean that Tivo is making a mistake.

Besides, if Rat Shack goes under I don't think Tivo loses much other than a distribution channel.

Re:Foreboding signs

[FuzzyBad-Mofo]

I recently picked up a Series 2 Tivo and am happy with it. Right now my local Best Buy is offering the 40-hour model for $20 (after rebate), and the 80-hour model for $70 (after rebate). Can't really go wrong at that price, the biggest problem was finding a wireless network adaptor that works with it (see my recent journal entry).

Re:Foreboding signs

[osgeek]

Interesting comments, but by far the most fascinating part of your post is in referring to the previous poster as "honey".

Very matronly and it stands out from the usual /. responses.

Kudos!

Re:Foreboding signs

[Rob T Firefly]

Good points all. Radio Shack's evolution is just one highly visible symptom of the changing role of high-tech gadgetry and hobbyism in society, and I think that's what I'm griping about more than my once-favorite store morphing into a Best Buy clone, with the TiVo deal being just the latest step in that evolution. And if being "everywhere" is a measure of quality and satisfaction, then McDonalds would have to serve the best burgers anywhere, with Coke serving as the celebrated wine of every country.

It wasn't a Zener diode exactly, but my last shipment of miscellaneous components and resistors arrived about a week ago. Convenient as Internet shopping is, I do still pine for the days when this stuff was a ten-minute walk away.

Re:Foreboding signs

[Rob T Firefly]

I quite appreciated that, I don't get matronly terms of endearment from nearly enough strangers on the Internet.

Re:Foreboding signs

[evil0ne]

Link to DirecTv's future plans, including MPEG-4 roll out.. I still bought one of the HD Tivo's last month because I get my locals Free OTA and didn't want to wait a year to take advantage of HD on my TV. The box is awesome, the only thing I miss is the HMO that was available via hacking in software 6.2 on the SD DirecTivo's.

Re:Foreboding signs

[Binestar]

Another thing to question on this is if you're allowed to upgrade the hard drive of the TiVo or not. Yes, the TiVo is an appliance, but I was able to toss an old 80GB Hard drive into my TiVo, doubling it's capacity at no additional cost to myself (Was upgrading my computer, had spare 80GB Drive: instant tivo upgrade)

Re:Foreboding signs

[el_gordo101]

Oh you don't want suggestions? too bad..

Or, you could just turn them off if you don't want them.

Re:Foreboding signs

[Johnny Mnemonic]

If TiVo doesn't offer lifetife subscriptions anymore, then it might just suggest that they won't be around for anyone's lifetime.

No, this was more likely a planned shift to a long term model. It would be wise to offer lifetime subs when your company is cash-poor and needs income to keep going in the short term. However, a long term model is benefited by having a consistent revenue stream.

Think of it this way: if Tivo sold 200 million Tivos to every man, woman, and child, but each had a lifetime sub, after the initial purchase Tivo would no longer have an income stream, but would be required to provide service indefinitely. A move to monthly-subs means that those 200 million folks would each be contributing to the ongoing, not the startup costs, of the company.

I predicted this move some time ago, and it concerns me not. In fact, in means that Tivo is less in need of startup revenue than they were previously.

Re:Foreboding signs

[jandrese]

I don't know about the Radio Shacks near where you live, but the back of mine stil has this large tool-cabinet like thing that is filled with a wide (but not deep) assortment of parts. It is frustrating that they'll only carry maybe 6 different kinds of switches, and anything too obscure is right out, but for basic easy stuff they're still there. Granted, you'd better know what you're looking for because the salesdrone is about as useful as a BestBuy or Circuit City one. You definatly pay a premium too, but compared to buying that $0.30 part online and paying $2 shipping, even 100% markup can be a good deal.

It's a shame that I have to go online so much for parts these days. Radio Shack doesn't even carry any wire smaller than 24 gauge, and even the 24 gauge is in an inconvienent form (a spool of security system wire--which is a bundle with 2 wires in it IIRC).

It would be so easy for someplace like Best Buy or Circuit City to crush them. All they'd have to do is convert one aisle into a larger/better version of the back of a Radio Shack and suddenly the Shack would have no niche at all.

Re:Foreboding signs

[tljohnsn]

Well, also I find it easier to just download a show via torrent and then burn it to a dvd. It's usually faster to download this way than transfering via usb. You can also usually get the shows in a much better quality format for shows that are produced in HD. Then just burn that to DVD and you can watch on your HDTV at the correct aspect ratio.

Re:Foreboding signs

[maggard]

It would be so easy for someplace like Best Buy or Circuit City to crush them. All they'd have to do is convert one aisle into a larger/better version of the back of a Radio Shack and suddenly the Shack would have no niche at all.

Nope.

RS's are generally small. That's how they get one so close to everyone (95% of US pop. within 10 miles of a RS, about the same numbers for Canada's RS licensee). Big box stores are, well, big. Their economics don't put them into half the strip malls on the continent. Furthermore folks are often buying at RS precisely because they don't want to deal with looking on aisle 44, mile 2, past the dryers; they want a local friendly place, or at least one that feels that way.

Who RS does have to worry about is the office supply stores. I was out last night driving through the suburbs of Boston, Mass., I musta passed a half dozen "Staples" (their HQ isn't far away.) It's they, and Office Max/Bureau En Gros, who are RS's growing competition. Their margins are better then the big boxes and they fit into a sweet spot between big box and small storefront, plus they have multiple draws with their copier centers, shipping services, and of course office supplies.

But out-to-crush-RS? That's probably in nobody's business plan - RS owns their corner of the market and their biggest danger is erosion, not direct competition.

Re:Foreboding signs

[Baloo Ursidae]

If TiVo doesn't offer lifetife subscriptions anymore, then it might just suggest that they won't be around for anyone's lifetime. The fact that they are partnering up with a retail chain on its last legs, RadioShack, doesn't bode well for its future. It's a pity to see such an inventive company put its survival into doubt.

No kidding. I made the mistake of going to Radio Shack for radio equipment. Wow, bad plan...ended up finding what I needed for my radio in a truck stop convenience store. The guys at Radio Shack said, "Dude, what do you think this is? A radio shop?" The irony was lost on the cashier when I pointed it out...

Re:Foreboding signs

[InvaderSkoodge]

"Nostalgia is lovely honey, but when was the last time you bought a Zener diode?"

Actually it's been about a year. But I was thinking of buying some more, since I blew up a few of the exact voltage I need while debugging a project.

Unfortunately, mail order now seems to be the only way to buy a zener diode, despite the fact that I live in a reasonably large city. And with shipping and handling a 10 cent diode will cost you $10. So now I'm considering what other electronic components I might need, so that I can work up a decent sized order for some place like digikey.

Re:Foreboding signs

[cayenne8]

"...from what I've seen most "lifetimers" are more likly to upgrade before 2 years are out (generally a lifetime subscription cost about 2 years of monthly subscriptions) anyways."

I've seen reference to this 'upgrade' a lot here, and I'm confused. What would lead me to upgrade my Series2 box...to another Series2 box? They all work the same do they not? The software on all of them are upgraded over time...so, why would I upgrade the box I bought like 3 years or so ago, to a new box, if the old one is functioning fine (I do need to backup the HD on it tho for safety)...and does the same thing as a new one.

The only upgrade I've heard about is the HD one...and that isn't really out there for general consumption from what I can tell...

Re:Foreboding signs

[jandrese]

Eh, having a store in every mall isn't a big deal for me when I'm looking to buy resistors. I don't think I'd really mind driving a few extra miles, especially since it wouldn't be very often. Plus: Radio Shack has crummy hours, unlike most of the big box stores.

My biggest complaint is that they do such a half assed job at filling their niche. They have like 6 different kinds of LEDs, maybe a dozen different switches, and just generally spotty selection. It's like going to a hardware store and discovering that they only carry nuts in full 1/4" increments, and only have 8 different kinds of bolts, and if you want a wingnut you're completely out of luck.

Re:Foreboding signs

[Rob T Firefly]

A few nerdy friends and I have often ended up throwing in together on a digikey order, splitting the shipping.

Re:Foreboding signs

[InvaderSkoodge]

Another thing to keep in mind when ordering from DigiKey is that they charge a $5 handling charge if your order is under $25 (I think). So if your order is between $20 and $25, you might as well find $5 of other stuff to buy, because you're paying for it anyway.

Also, it helps to look at price breaks. I was looking at some IRL530 MOSFETs (DK P/N IRL530N-ND). In quantities between 10 and 100 they are $0.99 each. Quantities over 100 are $0.75 each. So it makes no sense to order a quantity between 76 and 100. It will actually cost more than just buying 100.

Re:Foreboding signs

[LazyBoy]

Radio Shack is everywhere. Something like 95% of US households are within 10 miles of a Radio Shack.

Radio Shack recently announced they were closing 400 to 700 stores.

Re:Foreboding signs

[RobertLTux]

Okay if you are in a RadioShack and get that kind of response pull out your cell phone and call 1-800-THE-SHACk and speak to somebody in customer service (since you didn't get any at the store). Now I would give you the parts/radio knowledge has gone down over time.

Re:Foreboding signs

[DDLKermit007]

As long as you live in a decent town/city you can almost always find a "real" electronics component store. They aren't on every corner (usualy in industrial areas), they NEVER do advertiseing, it's almost guarenteed they are a hole in the wall, but they are there. I live in Las Vegas and I almost gave up all hope when I found not one but two stores I can fullfill all my component needs with (damn nice staff too). Unfortionately since I found them both the stores merged, but they are better off that way. The stores were like within a mile or two of each other and each store had thier thing. Hell they even do prototypeing and production boards which is seriously convinent (but this is a convention town so ya know...).

Re:Foreboding signs

[MindStalker]

Smartass, I meant you have to pay for them either way... I believe you can turn off automatic updates as well... Hell you could just manually program everything as well, but then you might as well cut the line.

Re:Foreboding signs

[el_gordo101]

Sorry, I thought you meant that if you didn't want the feature that that was too bad, you were stuck with it. No offence meant.

Re:Foreboding signs

[Gandalf_007]

This is why I order from Jameco and Mouser more often than Digikey -- no handling fee for small orders. Plus Jameco can ship USPS which is cheaper than UPS or FedEx for small packages.

And while there is a local electronics shop in this town, they're way on the other side of town, and usually more expensive than Radio Shack. They do have a much better selection however, so they're at least an option if I need something today.

Re:Foreboding signs

[StikyPad]

You Tandy apologists make me sick.

Re:Foreboding signs

[NateTech]

There's a number of reasons Radio Shack doesn't sell real electronics parts anymore, not the least of which is that the number of people who can actually build anything with them has fallen off dramatically in the U.S.

It's an effect of the social and educational shift of our populace having zero interest in the technology behind all the gadgets they're using.

On mailing lists and other web-based electronics forums, the majority of people truly interested and BUILDING things with electronics are not hobbyists, they're engineers who also tinker with electronics in their spare time or as a second job.

Slashdot is probably not a good cultural place to ask this, but...

When was the last time you really repaired a piece of electronics? Was it worth it?

RadioShack stocked parts when it was common for any handyman to attempt to fix their home electronics. With costs down, and complexity up to the point where you need a hot-air soldering station to work on surface-mount technology/boards, and schematics published by manufacturers and given out with the equipment a complete relic of the distant past, no one repairs anything anymore unless they have formal training or have absolutely nothing to lose in trying.

Other things hurt the "old" RadioShack model also, like the proliferation of places like DigiKey and Mouser Electronics where you can order small parts in quantity cheaper than you could ever get them at RatShack, and have them delivered to your door next-day.

I'm amazed Fry's still sells oscilloscopes, really... and impressed.

Re:Foreboding signs

[Anonymous Coward]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Radio Shack is MUCH more than those the little radio shacks you see around. They figured out a while back that having 'The Tandy Company' was NOT a good thing and let it die.

Re:Foreboding signs

[Thing 1]

Yes, but not everyone that owns a TiVo has broadband. They need to keep those phones active for the people they sold lifetime subscriptions to, who have the older units.

Or, as someone else said, "if ( unit == lifetime ) { exercise_disk *= 5; }"

Lifetime support?

[phozz bare]

Not exactly on topic, but this reminds me of one of the Fun Facts about Kibonia:

"Web domains in Kibonia (.KB) are available for only fifteen schwas a year. They can be reserved forever, provided that payment of fifteen schwas per year is received in advance."

Re:Lifetime support?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have never seen that site before - or laughed so hard at a map. "Incorrectly explored"

Now I think the guy I share an office with thinks I'm nuts.

Re:Lifetime support?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are.

Also you're now dumber for having looked at that site, as am I. Thanks GP.

Replay TV, Bay-Bee!

[RobotRunAmok]

The more I read about the emasculation of various service plans and firmware pieces in the PVR space, the more my lifetime subscription to SonicBlue and my commercial-crushing early-model RTV4504 begin to look like Sacred Lost Crystal Technology from Ancient Atlantis.

Eventually something will break that I can't fix, or some double-A agency will wise up to the fact that I haven't seen a spot break in seven or eight years, and I'll have to bite the MythTV bullet, but until then, *I* control the Vertical and the Horizontal...

Re:Replay TV, Bay-Bee!

[PurpleButter]

I also have a 1st genertion Replay with lifetime subscription. It recently had a hard drive crash (after ~4 years of regular use) and I started weighing in my options: Comcast DVR cable box (with HDTV to boot), Tivo, or repair my replay for $160. Heck, at the monthly rate everyone else charges, my $160 repair will pay itself off in about 1 year and I'll still have no monthly payments for the next - hopefully at least 3 - years. If it pans out this way, my average monthly cost after 8 years will be about 8 bucks a month. Any longer and it just keeps going down.

An additional FYI, the support staff were very easy to understand and very helpful. The process took about 2 weeks and instead of fixing my hard drive, they sent me a brand new box. For a company that looked like it was about to go extinct a few years ago, I was quite pleased and surprised.

Re:Replay TV, Bay-Bee!

[ckotchey]

Hear hear! I second, third and fourth that motion!
My ReplayTV 4504 is the best electronics purchase I've ever made, and the fact that I could upgrade the hard drive in it was icing on the cake. It's been wonderful being able to use DVArchive to store programs on my PC, to be able to send shows to my friend, and vice versa, and last night I discovered www.poopli.com - which is a fantastic way to find people who have recorded a show I missed and have them send it to me!
The only thing I regret is them not making the 4500 series anymore.

Re:Replay TV, Bay-Bee!

[sogoodsofarsowhat]

Hey my Series 1 DTivo (i bought 11 and gave them to family and friends...after i fixed them and updated them to 240GBs each) still kick arse and still do it all. Gotta love that. I got a standalone series 2 is bumped on size and is lifetimed in as well. :) Ah like is good. Its not tricked out as much as the DTivo series 1 units. Those things are GOLD :)

Re:Imagine a world without TiVO or even TV

[CRCulver]

Do you know what a TiVo even does? It's a device that records your preferred television programming for later use so that you can watch after you are finished socializing, going outside, etc.

Not offering, or discontinuing?

[pla]

they will be dropping their lifetime subscription option

Will they just stop offering it and honor existing owners, or do they plan to force everyone to downgrade to a monthly subscription model? And does this include their free "basic" service?

If the latter, and it includes their free basic service, they can expect one hell of a class-action from folks like me who bought an OEM TiVo box (as opposed to rolling their own Myth box) only because of the free lifetime basic service.


Heh... From the article, "According to Rogers, with TiVo's higher monthly fees and one year lock in they have increased the lifetime value of a TiVo customer by over $100."

Do they really want to say things like that in public? It might sound optimistic and fluffy, but just means "we will milk an extra hundred bucks from suckers who use TiVo every 2-3 years". Not the best PR material...

Re:Not offering, or discontinuing?

[LordKronos]

It's not public relations. It's investor relations.

Re:Not offering, or discontinuing?

[jayhawk88]

I would think they'd have to honor the current lifetime subscriptions, for the reason you mentioned. Somewhere in Florida there's a class-action litigation lawyer having wet dreams about this.

That said though, since it is "lifetime of the Tivo", you really have to wonder about future updates they might push down....

If subscription = lifetime
then diskexerciser = 150%

Re:Not offering, or discontinuing?

[stanmann]

Expect them to redefine Free, lifetime and basic, Just like Mail.com did.

Re:Not offering, or discontinuing?

[rnelsonee]

Not giving existing lifetime members service for life is a breach of contract if I'm not mistaken. TiVo could probably render old set-top boxes obsolete, forcing users to upgrade hardware, but they'll have to continue offering the service.

Re:Not offering, or discontinuing?

[schnikies79]

I've been checking up with some people in the know. You will are able to keep your lifetime.

Tivo still charges?

[ArcherB]

With so many "free" services available, such as using your PC, I'm amazed that TiVo is still able to charge their customers a fee.

Re:Tivo still charges?

[brouski]

You simply have no idea how slow Joe Sixpack is on the uptake of new technology.

It's hard enough to get people to stop using their VCR's. You think there would be enough people using MythTV and such to make a dent in Tivo's base?

Re:Tivo still charges?

[Control-Z]

I don't know what TV listings the free PVRs use, but the way I see it the Tivo monthly service fee gives me (mostly accurate) schedules and with season passes Tivo will keep recording a show even when it moves to a different time and/or day. That and the very stable, well-designed interface are worth $12 a month to me.

Don't know how I'd feel about $19.95 a month, even if the hardware was free.

Re:Tivo still charges?

[ArcherB]

I use Beyond TV on my PC. After a simple setup, it downloads the TV schedule daily. I can set it to record single shows, every show by name (ATHF), or first airings of a particular show (skips all the repeats). I record in MPEG and will compress the recordings to WMV or DIVX.AVI when the PC is idle. I can also save the shows that are recorded to the media of my choice as they sit right there in open format on the HDD.

The whole thing cost me about $40 and came with a remote (of course, you will also need a TV card and free HDD space... both of which I already had). For a bit more, I could set up recordings watch the shows from any PC on the network, but vnc or remote desktop with file sharing are cheaper.

Re:Tivo still charges?

[Anonymous Coward]

I screwed up the link... it's http://www.snapstream.com/products/beyondtv/defaul t.asp

Current lifetime subs just went up in value.

[profet]

Well... at least I'll get a hell of a lot of money for my TiVo with lifetime sub on ebay.

Remember lifetime sub was for the lifetime of the unit, not your lifetime.

Also. The only thing that has changed is that they have dropped Lifetime subs and added more subscription options.

You'll still be able to go to a store and buy a unit, and get a service only subsription for $12 and change. You'll also be able to buy a second service only subscription and get the multi-service discount of $6 and change on the additional units.

The change is that if you don't want to eat the cost of a unit upfront, there are news subscription options where the cost is amortized for a couple of years.

Poor TiVo

[a_nonamiss]

This is sort of sucks. I still have my original TiVo Series 1 (Made by Sony) that is at least 5 years old now. (Maybe more.) I got a lifetime subscription for like $200 when I bought it, and it's still chugging along. To most people, the lifetime subscription option was particularly attractive, because most don't want another monthly bill. And in retrospect, it was worth it, because I have been paying an average of $3.33 a month.

I know that the industry wants to maintain a sustainable income source, but companies used to do that my innovating with new products. Now they just want to charge a monthly fee for everything. TiVo had a really great idea, but they haven't done much innovating since their first product. (Sure, bigger, faster, higher resolution, but nothing really new) I hope that the pendulum starts to swing the other way, and soon. I'd rather pay more for a product up front than keep getting hit with monthly charges. Gives me the feeling of ownership.

Re:Poor TiVo

[Horrortaxi]

I got the lifetime subscription when I got Tivo 5 or 6 years ago. Through a promotion I was able to transfer it to a Series 2 box when they came out. My wife did the math one day and we probably would have been better off paying monthly. But what the lifetime subscription does is it keeps me from hating Tivo (the company, not the box) a little more every month when I pay the bill.

Maybe I'm a simpleton, but the whole Tivo service seems like kind of a money grab. I felt that $10 a month was too much for basically a TV guide with brains. Not that it should be free necessarily, but it was way overpriced from the beginning. The lifetime subscription kept me from being too cognizant of the fact that I was being gouged.

The Tivo people have said some really brutal things in relation to dropping the lifetime subscription. They said, basically, that they don't make enough money from people who buy lifetime subscriptions and that they can make $100 more out of people who use the new pricing. That may be true, but do you really want to tell your customers that? That might make them start rooting for the evil cable companies to use their monopolies to put their own PVRs into people's homes for 1/4 the price and finish Tivo off.

In short, Tivo isn't big enough or powerful enough to get away with the kind of bullshit they're trying to pull.

Re:Poor TiVo

[greg1104]

The first Tivo I used was bought with a lifetime subscription in 1999, one of the original Philips models. It's since needed a replacement hard drive (at which point the original owner gave the box to me and upgraded to a newer model), and the modem port blew up (switched to the serial port and ultimately a TivoNet card); with those repairs it's still running fine. As of right now that puts this one at around $2.75/month for its lifetime.

The payback period for the lifetime subscription has been between 2 and 3 years of product use, well within the expected lifetime of the box. Even in the rare case where the Tivo fails before then, it usually adds something to the salvage value of the unit if sold on ebay. As such, I have advised everyone who purchases a Tivo that they should consider the lifetime subscription part of the purchase price of the unit, and to look at it as a 3 year purchase--after which they would normally expect another couple of years worth of free service before the hard drive fails and they need to spend more money.

Now I'm going to have to tell them something else altogether, as Tivo has just priced itself out of the market. Looks like it's time to get familiar with my local cable provider's DVR box.

Re:Imagine a world without TiVO or even TV

[RobotRunAmok]

Imagine what the world would be like if everyone on this planet could not watch TV/movies/internet for a year.

Well, for one thing, it would mean I would go for 12 months without having to be exposed to snide, supercilious and off-topic holier-than-thou commentary like yours on topics you clearly do not understand.

Where do I sign up?

Re:Imagine a world without TiVO or even TV

[TrekkieGod]

Imagine what the world would be like if everyone on this planet could not watch TV/movies/internet for a year.

People would be bored? They'd get their deck of cards and play solitaire? They'd become asses who go around criticizing other people's entertainment choices?

Everytime there's a TV related story, people like you feel the need to say how much better off we would all be if we didn't watch TV. People who watch TV almost exclusively as their entertainment wouldn't suddenly want to become productive if they didn't have TV. They'd find something else equally unproductive.

There may be other options out there for entertainment, but we're not talking about them, are we? We're talking about TiVO dropping their lifetime subscription.

Do I even need a tuner?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've got digital cable. Couldn't I just use one of those IR blaster things and a decent capture card in a SFF lunchbox PC?

Re:Do I even need a tuner?

[nexthec]

Yes, but it takes some work. For some units, you can use serial to control the channel change.

So not a big deal...

[AudioEfex]

SO what? Only a tiny percentage of customers ever used lifetime anyway. Buying a lifetime today would be silly anyway, as the lifetime fee is the same as about three years paying monthly - that's a long time to recop an investment in a consumer electronics product at this juncture in TV history.

TiVo is actually very smart to offer the new "no money down" plans - that's the #1 complaint I hear from people as to why they don't buy a TiVo; many people do not like buying a product and THEN paying a monthly fee. Conversely, most people thought the idea of paying an additional $300 for something, even if it meant no monthly fees ever, was ridiculous as well - they just couldn't wrap their heads around it.

TiVo does exactly what I need it to do, which is why I have one. PC-based soloutions are at best clunky, and I have an elegant little box in my living room that does it all for me. I transfer shows back and forth from my TiVo to my PC when I want to archive them, and burn them to DVD when I wish.

The biggest complaint about SD TiVo's is that you can't record two programs at once; that's why many people have two TiVo's. Personally, I live very well with that limitation - there is only so much TV one can watch in a day, week, or lifetime and having to make some choices keeps me from getting OD'd on too much unlimited choice. Sure, choice is almost 100% better in any instance, but here I actually like that I personally have to make a choice between some programs (and the DVD recorder is always there if I really, really have a conflict).

DVR's so completely change how you think about your time, especially in relation to TV (obviously) - but I've used some of the "other" ones and nothing does it for me like a TiVo. Simple, elegant, and it does everything I want. I'm also a monthly subscriber, like the vast majority of TiVo owners, so the removal of the program isn't even going to be a blip on most of our radars.

Re:So not a big deal...

[garcia]

DVR's so completely change how you think about your time, especially in relation to TV (obviously) - but I've used some of the "other" ones and nothing does it for me like a TiVo.

Don't you mean "you stop thinking about how your time relates to TV"? Other people I talk to are "disconnected" for 24, Survivor, etc. I don't have the faintest idea when any of these shows are on and that's a good thing.

Re:So not a big deal...

[edwinolson]

If you make yourself escape the "I gotta have the Series 37 because it comes with an espresso maker" mentality, lifetime subscription makes sense.

I have a series 1 tivo, purchased in 2000 with lifetime. I'm an early-adopter type, but that doesn't mean I have to buy each successive iteration! Lifetime was cheaper back then, but still, do you really expect your PVR to become obsolete in 3 years (provided you make your purchase with a >3-year lifespan in mind)? Technology moves fast, but not THAT fast.

Plus I hate recurring charges.

Re:So not a big deal...

[generic-man]

Analog broadcasts will end in three years' time. That makes TiVo much more annoying because, in the absence of a digital-tuner TiVo unit ("mid-year" according to the article) you have to hook up an IR blaster to simulate a remote to another cable box. That also restricts you to just one tuner and makes setup a royal pain. You also have to buy or lease a digital cable box from your cable provider to get these channels.

Re:So not a big deal...

[Kyaphas]

"SO what? Only a tiny percentage of customers ever used lifetime anyway. Buying a lifetime today would be silly anyway, as the lifetime fee is the same as about three years paying monthly - that's a long time to recop an investment in a consumer electronics product at this juncture in TV history."

At the current rate of 19.95/Month (which was raised from 12.95/month), you'd only have to keep the device for 15 months to break even. That's not hard for a device that "so completely change how you think about your time, especially in relation to TV". When we got ours, it was 12.95/month, and it took 19 months to hit the lifetime price (250). That was ~3 years ago.

This move also makes it harder to give as a gift. I mean, I'd be more than a little irritated if someone gave me a gift that required me to pay (yet another tv-related!!!) monthly bill.

So, they've removed the lifetime, AND upped the monthly fee.

As a current TiVo owner with a lifetime sub, I don't like this at all. Guess it's time to write (NOT EMAIL) a letter to 'em.

Re:So not a big deal...

[schnikies79]

They are only upping the subscription price on models that you don't pay for. If you buy the tivo at full price up-front, you stil pay the $12.95. If you don't want to pay for the hardware, then it will be at one of three pricing plans.

Re:So not a big deal...

[KegDude]

Analog broadcasts will end in three years' time.

That timeframe is debatable (even if it is legislated), but in any case, it won't matter to people who receive satellite signals. The satellite receiver itself may change, but my Series 1 Tivo will still be getting the output from there.

..makes setup a royal pain.

I don't understand why you think it's so difficult. All it takes it plugging in one end of the IR blaster into the back of the Tivo, and placing the other end in front of the tuner, and telling Tivo to use the blaster. I had to do this one time several years ago - not much of a problem.

I think it's too bad they are dropping new lifetime subscriptions. I got one when I first got my Tivo back in 2000, and figured I'd do it again well *after* the HD stuff works itself out (with widespread HD broadcasts & less expensive TVs). The lifetime subscription makes better sense financially as long as you keep the unit long enough.

I'm not an early adopter, but I'm glad I jumped on Tivo pretty quickly.

Re:So not a big deal...

[generic-man]

I'd rather have one box than two to receive TV (not counting the TV itself, of course). A CableCARD TiVo would fit the bill nicely. Something just rubs me the wrong way of having the TiVo send a few commands to another box then record a few seconds of "switching channels..." before the program starts. It just strikes me as low-tech like those "VCR wizard" devices that are just timers built in to a remote control: they hit "record" at time 1 and "stop" at time 2.

My parents have a TiVo "hooked up" to a cable box in this way. It didn't take long to set up, but I was disappointed that I couldn't send signals in any more elegant way than an IR blaster.

Re:So not a big deal...

[Richard Steiner]

With a DVR, you no longer HAVE to care "when" particular shows are on. That is the whole point. If you have a show or two that you really like, you can have the DVR store up a half-dozen episodes for you, and you can sit down and watch them (or bits of them) when you actually have the time to waste.

I *like* being able to watch my shows after my wife goes to bed. :-)

Re:So not a big deal...

[infochuck]

PC-based soloutions are at best clunky...

Uh... no. PC-based solutions are, at best, elegant, fully-functional, efficient and stable. That's what 'at best' means. My MythTV boxen have been running for YEARS with no downtime, no goofs, and no problems save power failures and a PSU that went south.

Re:So not a big deal...

[generic-man]

I think the poster above you claims he doesn't need to watch TV because he has (big air quotes) "better things to do" with his life than watch CTU get owned because Samwise Gamghee got his ass beat by his sister's crackhead boyfriend and then lost his ID card so the russian guy could get in with it and release the centox gas into the vent system forcing everyone to get into the situation room!! CODE SIX!!

Re:So not a big deal...

[Anonymous Coward]

The use of the term boxen in your post leads me to believe that your idea of "elegant, fully-functional, efficient and stable" is different than most people who own a Tivo.

Even you admit that something as small as a power failure caused problems. With a Tivo, when the power comes back on the Tivos running (and even recording) from where it left off.

Re:So not a big deal...

[LazyBoy]

SO what? Only a tiny percentage of customers ever used lifetime anyway.

Got a source for that?

I for one was ready to pay a lot to be an early adopter of the Series 3 -- but not without the lifetime subscription.

Reading various forums, it seems that there's a lot of people upset about the lifetime subs going away. Maybe those forums aren't representative, but can Tivo afford to alienate those users?

I agree that the Tivo is great. I was an early adopter and a fanboy. But with this change they're asking too much compared to the competition (my cable co's HD DVR). I can't even recommend it to friends at those rates.

Re:So not a big deal...

[Anonymous Coward]

I *like* being able to watch my shows after my wife goes to bed.

You don't get laid much, do you, tough guy?

Re:So not a big deal...

[infochuck]

Even you admit that something as small as a power failure caused problems. With a Tivo, when the power comes back on the Tivos running (and even recording) from where it left off.

I admitted no such thing. I said this: no problems "save power failures and a PSU that went south". Yes, when the Power Supply for the computer died, the whole thing became useless. Foprtunately, it's a standard part that I had a replacement for on-hand. I doubt the TiVo would be so easy to get back up-and-running.

Secondly, I never said the power outages 'caused problems'; when the power came back on, the PC came back on, things started working again; I merely indicated that my machines work perfectly, except when the power is out; nothing that plugs into the wall works then; I probably shouldn't have mentioned it, since it's a given, and seems to have you confused.

Re:So not a big deal...

[tepples]

Even you admit that something as small as a power failure caused problems. With a Tivo, when the power comes back on the Tivos running (and even recording) from where it left off.

Except on a PC, you can replace the power supply with an internal UPS, which should help catch the end of the show when the power fails and your cable company switches to backup power.

Silver Lining

[Comatose51]

...Additionally they announced that their highly anticipated Series 3 HDTV standalone model with CableCARD support will not be available until after "mid year," a new retail partnership with Radio Shack

Boy if a partnership with "You've got question, we got blank stares" formerly run by someone who lied about his degree doesn't get the investors excited, I don't know what will!

Goodbye TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

I own one Series 1 that I bought back in 2000 and two Series 2 that I bought back in 2002. I knew that I would be using these products for a long time in the future, so I naturally purchased a lifetime subscription plan. In light of this news, I will not purchase another unit, even the admittedly attractive Series 3. If I purchase hardware, it will have a fixed cost, and it will be fully functional until it dies of old age. If I cannot do that, I will "rent".

This decision represents TiVo walking off the cliff. Time Warner is happy to rent its customers a HD DVR for no upfront cost and $8/mo. TiVo would have me purchase the hardware and provide them with an infinite income stream at $13/mo, or in its new plan, effectively rent the hardware for at least $17/mo with a three year commitment.

I'm sorry, but no user interface is worth a three year contract at twice the price. TiVo just lost a repeat customer.

Re:Goodbye TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

At least here In Albany, a TWC dvd will run you closer to 20 bucks a month. There is the 9.95 DVR Service, plus the physcal box rental of 8.95 or something close to that.

... *For Series 2 Tivos*

[Chris Pimlott]

For those who didn't RTFA, here's an important point:

This pricing plan only applies to the current Series 2 models. Rogers said that they were not ready to commit to this pricing model for the upcoming Series 3 HDTV TiVo due out later this year. Pricing on the Series 3 will be announced closer to its launch.

While it doesn't look like a good sign that they are dropping lifetime for Series 2, it's not yet ruled out for the next generation. Here's hoping...

In other news...

[freedom_india]

....Wallstreet reports customers drop TiVO for Comcast DVR's.

Transcript of Conference Call

[Fnord666]

Here is a transcript of the full conference call and a quick take of the two most important minutes of that call that relate to the new pricing strategy.

Are there any hardware PVRs without subscriptions?

[antdude]

I avoided TiVo and Replay due to their subscription requirements and high prices.

Do the newer PVRs with timeshift and DTV supports and without service subscription requirement (e.g., don't need the fancy TV guides, recommendations for other shows, voting, etc.) exist? I do not subscribe to satellite and cable TV services (I am a cheap punk, and I don't watch that many TV shows and movies) since I watch through broadcasts. I know DVD recorders exist, but they are quite limited in how much recordings especially with those HDTV (e.g., 1080i). Plus, they are expensive the last time I checked.

Currently, I use an old fashion VCR (record analog TV shows that don't require high quality picture and audio) and a computer with a HDTV tuner PCI card (acts like a PVR, but it is buggy, unstable, and not reliable like a VCR or a standalone hardware-based PVR; also don't like leaving computers on at home). I would love to replace my VCR before February 2009 before digital TV is enforced in USA.

Are there any types of hardware PVRs out there in local retail stores? I live in Los Angeles, CA, USA area. I would love to get a cheap hardware based PVR (no computers) that is like a digital VCR that can handle high quality recordings and playbacks and use over the air (OTA) broadcasts.

Reg Article on the Surge in IPTV

[Quirk]

Interestingly the Reg has an article titled Industry goes mad for IPTV. From the article:"There was a queue at IPTV Forum in London last week, all the way back past the lifts and round into the bar area. That was the first statement about what should have been yet another unsurprising show about IPTV, that there is real main stream interest out there now and everyone wants to get in on the action.".

"IPTV (Internet Protocol Television) describes a system where a digital television service is delivered to subscribing consumers using the Internet Protocol over a broadband connection."

Big business is moving in to try to corner the new tech. Big business hasn't changed much from the days of the first Robber Barons who would capture a trade passage and tax caravans.

What might prove interesting is that artists are seeing the possibility of going it on their own without being shackeled and thethered to a contract with an oligopolistic master.

Re:Imagine a world without TiVO or even TV

[Anonymous Coward]

I prefer to imagine what the world would be if everyone on this planet like you were buried six feet under. Yes, your type. The "I know how everyone else should live their life better" crowd. The ones that steal from their clients, cheat on their wives, dump used motor oil down the storm sewer, or inevitably do some other reprehensible thing that is swept under the rug, justified, or excused while you serve the greater good by pontificating like a penny-ante dictator about people's disgusting habit of, OH MY GOD, watching TV.

Bugger off and improve yourself. American Chopper is coming on...

Complete transcript

[Chris Pimlott]

Ah, a commenter on TFA points out the complete transcript nyud.net mirror of the call is available. A relevant quote:

[Stuff about the upfront-only plan] With this new pricing plan we will no longer be offering a lifetime service option.

To be clear, this new pricing for now will only be available for sales done through TiVo.com. We are exploring the possibility of launching similar types of programs into retail later in the year.

Then later in the Q&A portion:

Q: .. Secondly, will the pricing terms also be available when you roll out your dual tuner HD box later this year?

A: .. When it comes to, what we call our high def product later in the year, we have not yet set specific marketing or pricing arrangements for that yet. As we get closer to that timeframe we'll be looking to put that in place. This applies to our existing TiVo line of products that are in the market today.

So it sounds like lifetime for current models could possibly continue to be available at retail (though I can't say I've heard of a retail outlet offering a lifetime priced bundle), and the next gen HD is still yet to be determined.

Re:Complete transcript

[Chris Pimlott]

Oh, and...

This transcript was originally posted by Seeking Alpha. No, I don't work for them, I'm just doing what their copyright policy requires.

Re:Complete transcript

[Thomas Hawk]

Actually never went to Seeking Alpha and didn't get the notes from any transcription. I was on the conference call myself.

Re:Complete transcript

[Chris Pimlott]

I was just attributing my quoting of the transcript, I didn't mean to imply that you had taken your information from there.

Blogs

[kevin_conaway]

Normally, I don't mind Slashdot linking to blogs, especially those that don't contain ads. However, usually when Slashdot links to a blog (which is usually commentary), they also link to a reputable news source. Blog links by themselves don't cut it.

That said, what do folks think is going to happen to those of us that already have lifetime subscriptions?

Re:Blogs

[djmurdoch]

That said, what do folks think is going to happen to those of us that already have lifetime subscriptions?

I'd suggest you read the fine print on your contract. If it gives TiVo a way out, they'll probably take it. If not, you should buy some life insurance.

None of the news articles are clear on this

[xbrownx]

What happens to those current subscribers who bought their TV whole-price and are paying $12.95/mo for the service?

Re:None of the news articles are clear on this

[Control-Z]

I assume you mean Tivo, not TV. Apparently those that already own Tivos can continue to pay the $12.95 per month. Hopefully they won't raise that, they should lower it a bit if anything.

Re:None of the news articles are clear on this

[xbrownx]

thanks for correcting my typo - seems as if the marketing has gotten to me :)

wow what a reaction

[digitaldc]

I am not trying to tell people to not watch TV, in fact I watch TV.

I just wonder what people (slashdot readers specifically) would think would happen if everyone could not watch TV/movies/internet for a year. I am not trying to tell you what to do in your free time. Please, watch TV, movies, use the internet, play music, whatever tickles your fancy - its your life. I just wanted to know what people thought. Mod me off-topic I guess.

Re:wow what a reaction

[Anonymous Coward]

My wife and I dumped the TV for over 2 years. We listened to far more music, read a lot of books, talked, shagged, and went out more.

Re:wow what a reaction

[Anonymous Coward]

We listened to far more music...

Pointless fantasy drivel for your ears, and it makes you deaf. ...read a lot of books...

Pointless fantasy drivel for your imagination, and it makes you nearsighted. ...talked...

About pointless topics like the color of the drapes and the shopping list. ...shagged...

Without producing children, which is pointless pleasure seeking.

I>and went out more

To do what? Consume generic restaurant food?

It's amazing how one can trivialize any activity that is not objectively productive by slapping on a subjective value system that says "my activities good, your activities bad". Have you written great literature? Constructed great works? Served your fellow citizens? It doesn't sound like it. Instead, you have used the same time and resources as many of the rest of us to do things that really only have significance to yourselves. Your consumption of music, books, speech, eroticism, and travel have done as little to benefit the culture as the activities of those who prefer to watch TV. Whether you value those activities more than others is irrelevant, because in 100 years you will be equally dead, and you will have left an equal legacy to our children.

If not watching TV were such a great boon, we would be lead by businessmen, politicians, scientists, and humanitarians that loudly proclaimed the superiority of never having watched television. But we don't. We hear pretentious middle managers, city councilmen, college students, and general busybodies proclaim the superiority of their lives, which seemingly only differ by the fact that they don't watch TV. It's an illusory message, and we're not buying it.

I have achieved in equal measure, contributed to society in equal measure, and when I take time off, I occasionally chose to watch TV. Imagine that.

Those new plans do not look competitive

[Scyber]

to a cable/satellite DVR. If you can either pay $17/month for 3 years to TiVo, or $5/month indefinately to your cable/satellite operator, which one will you chose?

Re:Those new plans do not look competitive

[Anonymous Coward]

Tivo is $5/month through DirecTv ,regardless of standard definition or high definition, but who knows for how long. Lifetime service for DirecTivos was dropped years ago.

Re:Imagine a world without TiVO or even TV

[Cruciform]

No it's not.

It's a device that lets couch potatoes watch the shows that were on while they were watching something else.

Renew your library card

[ewg]

Here's a thought: eBay your TiVo and then go renew your library card.

Re:Renew your library card

[tepples]

go renew your library card.

Unless you happen to have been born in or to work in a geographic area whose local county library has an especially meager selection of TV series DVDs. Or were you suggesting that people switch to a completely different medium of entertainment?

Costs and benefits of MythTV

[Andy Social]

Not horse pucky. Of course I include the cost of the PC - I'm not using my MythTV box to do anything other than hook up to the television. Sure, I'm doing more than a TiVo can do, but it's still not my general-purpose computer. You can't remove the cost of all the hardware you need.

You are right, though - a machine comparable to a TiVo can be built for money comparable to what you'd spend on a TiVo. I don't know too many folks who build MythTV machines that are comparable to a TiVo though. The 80 gigabyte harddrive is never enough, the single tuner is rather paltry, etc. So, I suppose I should have been more clear - most MythTV users will spend more on their machine than if they bought a TiVo, but they also have about five times the capacity and much more expandability and more features and no DRM. Better?

Re:Costs and benefits of MythTV

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course I include the cost of the PC - I'm not using my MythTV box to do anything other than hook up to the television.

A MythTV box hooked up to a TV is not a general-use computer... however you can simulatenously use it as a fileserver, or as a music server for your home, or to serve up some webpages, etc. Basically all those "other neat things" that require an "always on" computer can be merged with the Myth setup. So yes it might cost a bit, but what you get out of it is amazing.

Try doing that with a TiVo.

The Comcast Initiative?

[trogdor8667]

The snippet and blog both mention a "Comcast Initiative", making it sound like everyone knew about it: well, I'm a Comcast customer who hates Comcast's horribly designed DVR, and this is the first I've heard. The article says "more information is coming." Does anyone have any more information on this, such as what was previously reported?

Re:The Comcast Initiative?

[TheBigBezona]

Link to article about the announcement.

Essentially, TiVo made a deal with Comcast to put their software on Comcast DVR boxes. The deal was announced a year ago, and still no TiVo Comcast boxes (at least not in my area), so we'll see. Although perhaps the pricing model changes are at least partially to make way for this.

Re:The Comcast Initiative?

[generic-man]

I hope it means a TiVo replacement for the godawful Motorola 6412 they lease to me, but it will likely just mean a software update for existing cable boxes that will, among other things, provide Tivo's "advertising capability."

Re:The Comcast Initiative?

[Thomas Hawk]

Here you go: http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/forums/showthread.php? t=717

Subscription Model Tipping Point

[darango]

Tivo, NetFlix, Phone, music, TV (cable or satellite), Internet access, paper (magazines / newspaper), ink for printers...

What is the next subscription model for a service I've gotta have? And when am I going to notice that the cumulative effect is keeping me from saving enough money for the kids college or my retirement?

I did lifetime "memberships" for Tivo Series 1 and 2. Both are still running strong. I like new gear, but I'm not constantly replacing stuff "that just works" in order to satisfy "my geek." The idea that I'll do a hardware refresh in three years so there's no diff between subscription and one time payments doesn't work for me.

At some point, there's got to be some backlash against subscription services.

Hardware PVRs

[Andy Social]

All hardware PVRs are computers. I presume you are looking for something with custom hardware and software that will not allow you to use the machine as a general-purpose computer easily. I don't know of any machines like that other than the TiVo variants, although there are a few companies (Myth.ic is one) that sell pre-configured MythTV boxes. No subscription, hardware and software pre-installed for you, and more capacity than any TiVo on the market. Also over a grand, though.

Lifetime Subscriptions

[Brent_Litzer]

NEVER buy a lifetime subscription to anything that is technology dependant.

I have been burned by ReplayTV. I paid $250 for a lifetime subscription thinking it would last long enough to pay for itself. The box blew up and after I got that fixed - they went out of business and I had a unit that did not have a number to call to get guide information - reducing it to a paper weight in my home theater.

Re:Lifetime Subscriptions

[Control-Z]

A lifetime subscription is a good deal for many people. If you anticipate having your Tivo for more than 2 years, it would pay you to get the lifetime. ASSUMING nothing happens to the hardware. Most people don't.

Even Windows Media Center pc costs LESS.

[ayeco]

I'm a HUGE fan of TiVo. I've defend it against the Myth fanboys. But now pricing doesn't matter. Over a 6 year period a new Tivo will cost WAY more than a Myth setup. Heck, it's even more than a Windows Media Center PC!! A Media Center PC will even do HD, now.

***Monthly fees are going up! I have a lifetime sub. I don't use Tivo's dial-up because my moden was dead, so my lifetime didnt pay for that service. Tivo doesnt support my software anymore. My lifetime sub is nothing more than program data. And I think they got a deal from me. Now they want $17 a MONTH!?

Re: Even Windows Media Center pc costs LESS.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm getting sick of these idiotic TiVo-bashing threads by people who consistently get the facts wrong. Monthly fees are not going up. Rather if you chose to get free hardware you will have the option of paying a higher monthly fee - but if you buy the hardware just like you always did, your monthly fee is not changing.

You still get multi-user discount: so if you have lifetime or are paying $12.95 a month, any additional TiVo sub is still only $6.95. Do you know how long it would take to justify a lifetime sub for $6.95? Once you have a lifetime box it never made sense anyway to get additional lifetime boxes. Paying $6.95 a month is cheaper.

"I don't use Tivo's dial-up because my moden was dead, so my lifetime didnt pay for that service."

You are a moron. A cheap external modem would have quickly fixed your problem. You have no one but yourself to blame for not knowing that - it is easily available information on the internet. Try TiVo Community forums for starters.

If you think you are only paying for program data you are also a moron.

Frankly your entire post, as well as most of this Slashdot thread, is misinformed and moronic.

TiVo is hurting financially

[sweetnjguy29]

TiVo is in a lot of financial trouble, looking at its key statistics: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=TIVO

The company has negative earnings per share and its profit margin is almost -25%! Almost 15% of the companies shares on the market are shorted. Thats crazy!

I think that dropping the Lifetime Service Plan is a desperate gimmick to get more revenue. It might work, but who knows.

However, I don't think computer based PVRs are going to make a dent in the market...they are too complicated. Adding a card into a computer is too complicated for Joe Schmo. Watching TV on a computer screen is an alien concept to most people. A friend who was over last night thought that watching TV on my PVR-350 was 'interesting'. "You do realize that this is really weird, right?" she said, "I'm not sure if I really liked the experience." But the idea of not having a monthly fee for TiVo intreaged her.

But...I think that computer based PVRs will make a huge dent in the tech savvy market...because it is flexable...and for now...DRM free.

Re:TiVo is hurting financially

[blakestah]

TiVO has a deep patent portfolio that is starting to be leveraged against the companies that are ripping off their inventions. As each new box comes out, TiVO is reverse engineering it and finding patent violations.

TiVO also has 4-5 million boxes in service (far far more than number two), each with upgradeable operating systems. They can leverage this in a "google ads" kind of way to link TV content and internet-based advertising, and blow the doors off the competition.

As is often the case, people are missing the forest for the trees. People look at the PVRs as a recorder, or as a mechanism to deliver content on-demand (both of which are true). But the PVR a la TiVO will become a novel advertising stream, with click-through ads during television content that will be worth a mint and have the potential to revolutionize TV-based advertising models. Then TiVO will be giving the boxes away to get your ad revenue.

Re:TiVo is hurting financially

[james_orr]

A friend who was over last night thought that watching TV on my PVR-350 was 'interesting'. "You do realize that this is really weird, right?" she said, "I'm not sure if I really liked the experience."

You do realize your 350 has a TV out, right?

I think most people who run a home-made PVR full time (mythtv or otherwise) watch it on a TV screen and not a monitor.

Re:TiVo is hurting financially

[sweetnjguy29]

Yea, but that would have required taking her out of my bedroom where my computer is (19" screen) to the living room with the 26" screen! ;-)

Re:TiVo is hurting financially

[Jonboy X]

I think most people who run a home-made PVR full time (mythtv or otherwise) watch it on a TV screen and not a monitor.

I've been running MythTV for over 3 years now, and to tell the truth, I'm really not sure what most people are using for display devices nowadays. Getting decent TV-out in Linux has never been easy for a noob, but Myth isn't exactly noob-friendly either.

As others have mentioned, MythTV setup guides abound, but most of them focus on one specific hardware configuration. For the record, I use an XBox frontend. Since the XBox only comes in a couple of configurations, there are XBox Linux/MythTV distributions that will pretty much work out of the box. For under $100, you get component video, digital audio out and a slick little remote. You still have to set up a back-end machine to record and serve the content, but you can still use that machine as a regular ol' desktop too, which is nice. It fits nicely in the A/V cabinet , hooks right up to your TV and stereo, and can serve up your MP3's through your real stereo too.

Re:TiVo is hurting financially

[greg1104]

As a reference point here, 11.1% of AMZN (amazon.com) shares are shorted right now. As another, over 25% of the shares in dead man walking SCOX are shorted.

TIVO's short position is substantial, but calling it "crazy" is overstating the case a bit I think; it's not out of line for a tech company in the subscription model business, which people love to bet against. A really fair comparision would be Sirius Satellite Radio (8.8% short) or XM Radio (14.6% short).

Crazy would be TZOO (Travelzoo), where 39.20% of the float is short right now.

Re:TiVo is hurting financially

[james_orr]

I've been running MythTV for over 3 years now, and to tell the truth, I'm really not sure what most people are using for display devices nowadays. Getting decent TV-out in Linux has never been easy for a noob, but Myth isn't exactly noob-friendly either

You've got about a year on me, just checked my first recording, it's dated April 2004.

For TV out I just use a GeForce FX card. It works good enough for me and my current television set, and really the only noticable difference over live tv is I need to get it to overscan a little which it refuses to do, but it's a very minor amount.

But, you're right, setting up MythTV is not for everybody. Even if you are technically savvy it's still only right for you if you're willing to consider setting it up and maintaining it as a hobby. If you just want to plug something in and have it work, buy a TiVo (or whatever).

For me personally, it has been very much that. I started with an old celeron 466. a 10GB hard drive and a TV out card with no tuner, and just used MythVideo to display some video files. I later added a bttv tuner and a DVD drive. That old celeron could record/playback with the bttv tuner fine, but it struggled with DVDs, so it got my next hand-down, a 2.4 GHz pentium which it's still running on. I now have 3 PVR 250s and a 320 GB hard drive. The nice thing about it was I was able to build a working system with basically only old bits of hardware I had lying around, later on as I could afford it I bought extra stuff and improved it.

Re:TiVo is hurting financially

[Jonboy X]

Yeah, the part I left out of that scenario before is that in the near future I'm going nuclear. ;) I've had this HDTV (well, 1080i & 480p) for a year and a half now, so I figured I might as well, like, do HDTV.

5 250-gig SATA drives in a RAID-5
NVidia 6600 card (256 meg) with component out (TV only takes component, not DVI/HDMI)
25-ft component video/coax digital audio cable to run straight from 'puter to TV/stereo
RF combined keyboard/mouse
DCT-6200 HDTV receiver w/firewire caputre from my cable company

Through careful scrounging, I've gotten the first 4 items for maybe $500 over the past 6 months or so, and the receiver is on its way. I'm psyched, but describing the new setup doesn't really help my case for an easy MythTV setup.

Re:TiVo is hurting financially

[ender-]

DCT-6200 HDTV receiver w/firewire caputre from my cable company

Just as a warning, you might want to test this. I messed around with getting the HDTV signal from my 6200. It works ok, but only for the local broadcast stations. The other HD stations I have [INHD1/2 and Discovery HD] would not send a signal through the firewire. Something akin to a broadcast flag I suspect. I don't subscribe to any premium HD movie channels so I haven't tested them but I would imagine that they too may have a flag to stop it from being output through the firewire.

This is all with Comcast cable in the DFW area. Your cable company might work differently, but you might want to check it out.

Good luck!

Re:TiVo is hurting financially

[Jonboy X]

Yeah, I posted to the Myth boards in the area and found out that RCN Boston (my cable co) sends all the channels out in the clear over the firewire link.

Comcast, on the other hand, is the devil.

Hello people, he's not going to take it away.

[deacon]

Since I don't mind losing 3 modpoints, I'll agree with you.

I'll go further, and say that the fact your perfectly reasonable comment got modded -1 flamebait, and the violent reactionary snide bitterness you got in the other replies, reminds me of the reaction of heroin addicts (or smokers in the 1950s) when you suggest they might perhaps be "addicted".

Funny how the mods and the replies have proved your point for you.

Yes, I've been broadcast-TV free for about 10 years now.

Most tenacious monkey I ever had on my back.

Re:Hello people, he's not going to take it away.

[digitaldc]

You sir, have a lot more willpower than I do. I have reduced my TV watching, but not quit altogether.

Giving up TV must be hard for the first month, after that, I guess that you will find time to do other things.
I do enjoy watching Mythbusters, G4 CinemaTech, Lost and the Science Channel.

Re:Hello people, he's not going to take it away.

[deacon]

You sir, have a lot more willpower than I do.

I thank you sir, for the courtesy, but I was a helpless sinner under the eye of the TV.

;)

Seriously, we had to put the TV away in it's box for 3 years to break the addiction. For months afterward I would reflexively reach for the now-missing remote control. And there were many projects around the house/cars/inventions/creating that I should or could have been doing instead of watching TV. But I would almost always choose to zombie out in front of the TV. Only brought the TV out again when we got a dvd player, and we never hooked up any antenna.

I'm sure I would enjoy watching shows if I let myself fall back into the habit into it. I'm sure I would "enjoy" heroin or nicotine if I tried them, too.

Considering how much trouble it was to break the TV addiction, I think I'll pass.

Missing the point

[Doctor Faustus]

Although people keep bringing up the loss of DirecTV over and over and over and over again, personally I do not think that this is as great of an issue as people make it out to be.
...
TiVo makes far more money on their standalone boxes than the pittance that they receive on their DirecTV boxes. The reduction in DirecTV business is perhaps one of the most overhyped stories out there on TiVo today.
It may be overhyped from the business side, but there are a lot of customers who really love our DirecTiVo units, and it *is* a big deal to us.

In fact, if some of DirecTV's customers have such bad experiences with DirecTV's generic PVRs it would not surprise me to see these same people buy Series 3 standalone TiVo's due out later this year
Sorry, no. DirecTiVo is both cheaper than stand-alone and better quality, due to the lack of the superfluous digital-to-analog-to-digital conversions. I might be willing to pay an extra $10/month to keep the TiVo interface over DirecTV's new one, but I will always take a DVR that's integrated with satellite or digital cable over a stand-alone.

What I do think might be more of a draw to the DirecTiVo people is the Comcast DVRs with TiVo software that's supposed to come out later this year. As for me, though, I just got an R10 DirecTivo from Weaknees (215 hours!) while I still could, and I expect to use it for the next several years.

Re:Missing the point

[Lije Baley]

I haven't heard about the innards of a Series 3 yet, but couldn't it do something similar to the DirecTivo, just storing the compressed data stream from digital cable on disk and decoding it later with the CableCards? I would think it's going to really be a differently animal from the old SA Tivos.

Maybe I'm just hopeful that it will operate like my DirecTivo, since I'm going to have to switch to cable seeing as how DirecTV is going their own way for their HD DVR.

Re:Missing the point

[Doctor Faustus]

That seems to be what the poster above you is saying, yes. I hadn't heard that before today, but it seems feasible.

Re:Imagine a world without TiVO or even TV

[HoosierPeschke]

People who watch TV almost exclusively as their entertainment wouldn't suddenly want to become productive if they didn't have TV. They'd find something else equally unproductive.

... or reproductive...

Disappointed

[terryfoster]

I've had my Series 1 since Nov 1999 and it runs like a champ (after replacing the HD with dual 80GB drives). I have calculated that I have paid $1.32 per month (and dropping) since paying $100 for my lifetime subscription.

Personally I plan on buying the Series 3 shortly after it comes out. Somebody said, "The Series 2 does anybody would need from a DVR." Sorry, but the Series 2 does not have dual tuners, digital cable/ATSC capabilities, or the ability to record HDTV. I currently rent a HD-DVR from my cable co for $17.90 and it doesn't do half the things the Series 3 can. The HD-DVR can't record broadcast stations, schedule recordings from the internet, browse my pictures, play my MP3s, or offer TiVoToGo capabilities.

I was happy to see that I was going to pay only $6.95 a month because of their multi-service discount (and I would have upgraded to lifetime after maybe 6mos). I now can only imagine that they are going to drop the multi-service discount since they didn't mention it in their press release. They have even increased the monthly service fee from 12.95 per/mo which makes me worry that they may charge MORE for the new Series 3 features. Personally I would hope they charge LESS since I will need to rent 1 or 2 cable cards to replicate some of the functionality of my HD-DVR.

I thought I was going to save money by switching to the Series 3, but if their monthly service fee + cable card rental is greater than $17.90 I will need to seriously consider my purchase.

HDTV

[tacokill]

Just one question: WHERE IS TIVO's HDTV UNIT?

It's only been, what...3 years since they announced it?

Re:HDTV

[nsayer]

That's the series 3 they've said will be coming "after mid year."

Re:HDTV

[tacokill]

Yes....except last year, it was also "coming soon". Either way, it doesn't matter. It's woefully late to the market.

Re:Imagine a world without TiVO or even TV

[brilyn]

Just because that's how *you* use it, that doesn't that's how everyone else uses it....

Lifetime has been the way to buy

[CharlieHedlin]

My 1st TiVo is going to be 6 years old in a few months. I didn't buy a lifetime for the first 1.5 years, so they got $180 plus the $199 lifetime fee from me. It is still running fine with a recent hard drive in my Dad's living room. Being a series 1 the only resell value is the Lifetime sub and that is declining as the series 2 units keep offering more features.

Pay to use your VCR

[maillemaker]

Yeah, I think this whole subscription thing to be able to use your VCR is a bunch of crap, too. I'm completely uninterested in such a thing.

Steve

Lifetime subscription is a greast choice!

[us7892]

Sounds like Tivo just doesn't want to manage it's list of lifetime subscribers. They feel that I'm now a freeloader. I purchased a lifetime subscription 3 years ago.

It doesn't really matter though, since HD and new players don't carry over the subscription. In the long run, I will have saved ~$300, by the time I buy a new HD, multi-tuner Tivo box. Then I'll be on the monthly fee train again like everyone else...

Lets do the math...

[dotdevin]

If I purchase a new TiVo under the old pricing plan and keep it for four years and it is working at the end of that time I would end up paying about...

80 hours S2 TiVo: $250
Lifetime sub: $300
Resale value at EOL including sub: $(300)
TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP: $250 or $5.21/month

Even at three years you end up with a total cost of only $6.94/month.

Under the new plans you end up with a total cost of

$469 (pre-pay for 3 years) = 11.64/month if you stop at 3 years /w $50 resell
$203 (16.95 * 12 months - see note below)
$(50) Resale value - best guess
TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP: $622 or $12.96/month

IMO, this just sucks for the average TiVo owner who can afford the upfront costs of the box + lifetime service.

NOTE: This is my best guess about the cost of the sub. after your 'contract' period is up. Could be less or more.

**cough cough** WoW rant **cough cough**

[LanMan04]

TiVo is actually very smart to offer the new "no money down" plans - that's the #1 complaint I hear from people as to why they don't buy a TiVo; many people do not like buying a product and THEN paying a monthly fee.

**cough cough** World of Warcraft **cough cough**

I can't believe they charge you up-front for a game that will become totally useless once you stop paying the monthly fee. It's not like there's some kind of hardware cost to cover per unit; once you develop the game it's essentially "free" to distribute (minus packaging and such). Either sell the game for full price with a tiny/no monthly fee, or give it away and charge the fee to play. Not both!

PS - I bought it anyway...=)

Re:**cough cough** WoW rant **cough cough**

[jandrese]

I like to think of it this way: The money you put down on the game is for the inital development costs. The monthly fee pays for the content upgrades. Now there is no way to say "I want to keep playing but I don't want any more upgrades" but that's the nature of the beast. It'd be nearly impossible to cater to that market due to technical reasons.

Also, the game didn't cost $50 up front, rather it cost $35 because it includes one month of gameplay. $35 for a new PC game is cheap.

No. ReplayTV never went out of business.

[Richard Steiner]

SonicBlue was picked up by DMR (Denon/Marantz) a few years ago, the units have been produced and sold continuously, and the ReplayTV web site has always been active as far as I know.

I use my ReplayTV 5040's ethernet card to obtain programming info via my cablemodem connection which is far easier than using the unit's modem, IMO.

Give them a call -- your lifetime subscription should still be valid if the unit can be repaired.

As others have said, ReplayTV is an option.

[Richard Steiner]

It always has been.

No, it's not as flexible or capable as MythTV, but it doesn't pretend to be. Instead, it's a drop-in video component that grabs its scheduling information via TCP/IP over ethernet and otherwise does what it's told.

They still offer a lifetime subscription. I've gotten my money's worth from mine; others may have different opinions. YMMV.

Re:As others have said, ReplayTV is an option.

[Anonymous Coward]

congratulations on being the first person in this thread to call it by its correct name and not "ReplyTV"

No NEW sales of lifetime TiVo

[James McP]

They aren't cancelling the existing lifetime subscriptions, just refusing to sell new ones as of next week.

Which means this week I switch from monthly to lifetime. Why, you ask, did I ever go monthly? My TiVo (SDH-400) has the lifetime TiVo Basic and I wasn't sure at Christmas if I needed all the wishlist and extra stuff. But I do. Oh, I do.

Re:Imagine a world without TiVO or even TV

[Anonymous Coward]

Where do I sign up?

Would you like a lifetime service plan?

FWIW, ReplayTV is comparable.

[Richard Steiner]

It grabs its programming information via ethernet if you have a broadband connection, you can schedule things via the MyReplayTV web site, you can do all sorts of things via your PC using DVArchive and friends, and it still offers a lifetime subscription option. :-)

The interface may or may not be better than TiVO -- I've used both, and I prefer ReplayTV, but each has a few capabiities that the other lacks.

All that being true...

[Belial6]

All that being true, I went into a RS the other day for a telephone jack splitter, and they actaully had robot kits on promenent display in the center of their store. I was amazed. Not a toy that looks like a robot, but honest to goodness servos, controllers and base platforms.

Tivo folks are bastards

[greg_barton]

I bought a tivo for my mom. I was supposed to get a $150 rebate on the pvr if I bought a year's subscription. After all was said and done they said the rebate request didn't get in on time. I sent it in one month before the deadline.

Bastards.

I was thinking of getting one for myself. Even though a MythTV setup could be more expensive (and definately harder to set up) that's what I'm going to do. They've lost my business.

You are missing the point

[digitalbeing]

The Series 3 DVR that will come out later this year is "integrated with digital cable". It will use up to 2 CableCARDs to decrypt digital cable from your cable company. So it will be similar in functionality to your current DIRECTV DVR with TiVo, but will be even better because it comes directly from TiVo so you won't be limited in software features by what DIRECTV will allow. http://www.tivolovers.com/252572.html

Re:You are missing the point

[balamw]

Many of us live in places where cable, even digital cable, is just lame compared to the DBS offerings. Where I am it costs more and offers less than DTV or Dish. If DirecTV and Dish Network would support CableCard, we'd have a winner, but there is no indication that this will happen. This is also a big deal for CableCard ready HDTVs. It sure would be nice if CableCard extends to DBS. I love by DTiVos... B

Re:You are missing the point

[Lije Baley]

This makes me wonder what these "deals" are that cable companies are making with Tivo. It seems like any cable company could just offer the generic Series 3 Tivo with their own CableCards installed as the "Premium" DVR option. Or maybe not even bother with a Tivo "deal" at all and just lease their customers the CableCards and tell them to go buy the Series 3.

Personally, I love my DirecTivo, and when I switch to HD I will dump DirecTV and go to cable and Series 3 before getting stuck with DirecTV's upcoming non-Tivo HD DVR.

Re:You are missing the point

[Doctor Faustus]

Weaknees sold me a model R10 DirecTiVo about three weeks ago, after DirecTV themselves and Circuit City were down to only the DirecTV in-house R15. Depending on when you switch, you might still be able to get the HD DirecTiVo from a smaller place like them.

Re:You are missing the point

[Lije Baley]

I have an R10 too, so at least I'm safe for SD material. I've heard though that the (aging) HD Tivo only does MPEG2 and that DirecTV will be replacing them within the next year or so as they switch everything over to MPEG4. They supposedly will support DirecTivos indefinitely, but not MPEG2, so it's sure looking like Comcast (yuck) and their vaporware Tivo DVR, or a Series 3 for my HD future.

Incidentally, they also just switched (March 1) to a lease-only model for all their equipment, where the mirroring fee essentially gets renamed as the lease fee. Like mirroring, first receiver lease is free, all others are $5/month. I'm not sure how they will deal with guys like us who own the equipment, maybe they'll still charge it as mirroring -- I had better go look at my bill.

add in your time too

[Shivetya]

whats your time worth? How much time did it take you to get it working?

TIVO just works. For Mom & Pop that is all that matters, for many geeks that is all that matters too.

Re:add in your time too

[cayenne8]

"TIVO just works. For Mom & Pop that is all that matters, for many geeks that is all that matters too."

So...what if someone started building turn-key MythTV boxes and started selling them to the masses? You possibly could undercut Tivo on the price...and have a box that is easy to use, and more functionality to it.

I still love my Tivo

[Chicken04GTO]

All this weeping and gnashing of teeth about Tivo reducing functionality...I haven't noticed any of it. I use it for basic functions...I setup season passes, it records everything I tell it too, nearly flawlessly, and I can skip commercials. I tried the PC based solution, and it was just too much hassle. Bizzare unsolvable video/audio synch issues, keeping the tv schedule/guide stuff uptodate and trouble free...driver conflicts, manual software updates...I might have saved some cash, but the amount of my very valuable time wasted trying to get it to work made it useless in my opinion. Alot of us here are geeks, and I work all day solving technology based problems...when i get home and want to relax and veg on the couch for a bit, the last thing I want to do is figure out why something I wanted recorded isn't there or is borked up. I love Tivo, because its easy to use and reliable.

Re:I still love my Tivo

[Pearson]

I haven't noticed any of it. I [only] use it for basic functions [though]...

Hmm...I think I know why. ^_^

ReplayTV Working Fine

[meehawl]

I had a unit that did not have a number to call to get guide information

Really? Because both my Replays are humming along nicely, pulling their Guide information down off "the Internets". Maybe you've heard of it. My Replays were and are just plug and go. I even pull down Replay Guide info onto my PC using DVArchive, and can then view, schedule, and reschedule recording info from any web browser. Moral of the story: even if you have some ancient Replay from the 90s that must use a phone line you can still get guide information. DNNA rolled the guide service in to its $3000+ Escient product line so it seems like it will continue to run for a long time.

Bra-vo

[jargoone]

I initially thought this comment was major flamebait, but as it turns out, it's the most insightful comment I've ever read on this matter. I'd have modded you up, but since you're AC, I thought I'd reply.

Great post.

Hear Hear

[meehawl]

the more my lifetime subscription to SonicBlue and my commercial-crushing early-model RTV4504

I'll second that. I was lucky enough to get two RTV5040s for $150 during the lifetime sub changeover debacle a few years ago. Every time I read about a "fantastic" new feature for Tivo (like, transferring shows to handhelds, streaming over internet, web-based control) I'm thinking 'What? Didn't Replay do that back in 2000?'

Only MythTV coes close to Replays, and it is just too brittle to pass the "Wife Test". Replay is just "fire and forget".

Re:Are there any hardware PVRs without subscriptio

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I heard of a digital hardware PVR that doesn't use computers. It records audio and video as a series of pits and lands on stone tablets. It's purely mechanical; no computers required!

Each tablet holds about 0.1 seconds of programming. That might not seem like much, but the tablets are sold in economy packs so that should make it easier to purchase the 18000 tablets required to record a 30 min show.

Some people might call it a niche product for the "I don't like to leave computers on" crowd, but I think it's really going to take off!

Yes there are problems, but..

[zingbot]

I really want them to stay around. I've bought two TIVOs for my apartment, which I pay 18.95/mo for BOTH. I've also bought four for others, who really love them. It is the easiest, most satisfying way I've found to watch TV. I guess I don't feel as annoyed by monthly subscriptions. I have Netflix, Tivo, Gamefly (saves me TONS of money on games) and all the utilities, but I know what is coming and can cut when and where I want to when things get tight. I never paid, nor will I pay, a monthly music subscription My issues came last month when I tried to find a wireless adapter for my mother-in-law's Tivo when not a single ont on their compatability list was available on the market. I was told to buy Tivo's new (69.99!) adapter which was out of stock till the end of March. Apparently the wireless drivers tak up tons of space in the drive, absorbing useful recording space. Whatever. I just wanted it to be easier than it was. In my experience, TIVO's GUI is slowing down a lot over time, too. I want it to speed up again. Pushing a button has an irritating half-second delay now that has come with system updates in the past year. This doesn't mean I'm leaving them, it just means I'll once in awhile be a little annoyed. All things considered, they are doing a good (not great) job of keeping me happy. P.S. Regarding an earlier post, there has been NO change in the past three years on how they let people view commercials. You can still zip right past them(in bursts of by speeding it up), yet see the ones you want to if you care to stop.

I have something similar...

[blorg]

...a Pinnacle Showcenter connected to a PC with a TV tuner. Works really great, but my experience with these things is that they _need_ an ethernet connection and are univerally flaky over WiFi (not just the Pinnacle, _any_ WiFi media receiver.)

Can someone who's looked at TIVO lately answer?

[bill_kress]

It's been a while since I got my Ultimate TV. It's a dead platform now, but mine keeps working and owners of other DVRs are still generally surprised with the usability.

When it dies I suppose I'll go with MythTV--so I haven't been following the TIVO stuff lately at all.

Last I heard, though, TIVO 2 was supposed to stop you from fast forwarding through commercials and allow broadcasters an awful lot of control over your box--possibly even over shows you have already recorded. The broadcasters have even begun to experiment with blocking their customers from recording.

Is this true? If so, does anyone actually buy these things? Is an alternative available (is tivo series 1 still available for instance)?

PS/OT
One of the shows I've been watching...I forget which one, must be earl, the office or 2.5 men (I'm afraid it's probably the latter, sorry) seems to post little essays at the end of their show for like 1 second.

The last one (which is the first one I saw) discussed the writers experience "Bumping into" donald trump. It is targeted ONLY at pvr users, nobody else could read it, but it goes past so fast that it's just a glitch at the end of the show--doesn't take as long as "sit ubu, sit" or even "Gurr, argggg"

If an advertiser REALLY wanted to get the attention of PVR owners, he'd get together some good animators and build a 10 second comic book that you could step through frame by frame. You could throw it out at the end of a commercial, or even use the bottom 1/3 of the screen while the top 2/3 contained a traditional commercial.

I'm actually a little surprised that so few people have figured this out so far (I've seen it on B5 and the one I just related, and I understand there is a KFC commercial that's hiding a coupon or something)

Sorry about the O/T

Re:Can someone who's looked at TIVO lately answer?

[daverabbitz]

Thoes messages are on My Name is Earl, and were also on Dharma and Greg. They can also be viewed with a decent vcr.

Re:Can someone who's looked at TIVO lately answer?

[marct22]

TiVo series 2 works like series I but with more options. You can fastforward through whatever you want. Tivo did put in the capability to block certain programs from being recorded, but there was I hope enough outcry that most broadcasters won't use that feature. I know if they prevented CSI from being TiVo'd, I'd start missing a lot of CSI because I'm not gonna alter my viewing habits. There's always something else to watch (24, PrisonBreak, Lost, Daily Show, Earl, HBO, etc.). Me, I plan on staying with TiVo. The lifetime subscription loss for me doesn't mean much. I'm on my 4th TiVo, two series 1 that are retired and given away, two series 2 machines, and I'm tentatively planning on replacing them with series 3. TiVo is more than just a DVR to me, as I have it hooked up to my server (Windows 2003 Enterprise server), with access to all my mp3's. With Galleon (an opensource TiVo hack), I can view local movies, get traffic reports, sort my mp3's by artist, record, and song, get lyrics (via lyrictracker), etc. With the new TiVo upgrade, I also get Live365 streaming audio, a few games, buy movie tickets. My entire family loves TiVo, we haven't had a problem at all with our Series 2 machines, it's user interface is simple. I haven't tried MythTV, I thought about playing with it, but frankly, I'd rather be playing games than in the guts of a PC (been there, done that, nothing too challenging, it's more an uninteresting chore). To me, having a lifetime subscription for a TiVO box is the same as having a lifetime warranty for a cell phone. 2 or 3 years down the road, I'm not gonna want that old technology, I'm buying the newer better toys.

Time Cost

[Andy Social]

Personally, I bought hardware that was known to work well with MythTV (research time - days?). Then, I assembled all the hardware (assembly time, 2 hours or so). I had to download and burn Knoppmyth (an hour on broadband). Then I installed Knoppmyth (another hour, after configuration time).

Once it's all installed an operational, it doesn't take any more time or effort than a TiVo, but unless a major manufacturer starts shipping a MythTV box, rather than Windows Media Center PCs, the average nongeek is not likely to play with MythTV.

Could you imagine if Dell or HP started selling two lines of media machines - one with WinMCE and the other with MythTV? Yeah, me neither.

re: Knoppmyth

[King_TJ]

Yeah... I've been running KnoppMyth for quite some time now. I had a lot of headaches with a few older versions. My system kept wanting to randomly freeze up or crash .... but the R5A16 version, I've been running for months now with absolutely no problems.

My single biggest complaint about MythTV is getting it configured to properly display on a given TV set without overscanning or underscanning too much. For example, I've got an RCA 52" rear-projection TV and have Knoppmyth connected to it through its DVI connector. Apparently though, RCA deliberately adds a lot of overscan to any signal coming in through that connector, because they really only intended it for use with one of their companion HD TV tuner boxes, which is correspondingly designed to send out a relatively underscanned signal.

They tell you to make use of options in the X configuration file (such as adding a value between 0 and 1 to the "TVOverscan =" line), or getting modeline info for your particular set by temporarily connecting a Windows-based PC and using a utility that can probe it and give you exact values. But let's face it ... neither of these options is at all "user friendly" or even practical.

In my case, the changes I made to the TVOVerscan parameter appeared to make no difference at all (maybe because they don't affect the DVI video output?). I finally had to "cheat" and go into a secret "service menu" on my TV, telling it to do some underscanning of all incoming signals to get Myth's screens to properly fill the screen but not get cut off at the edges. That's fine, except if I switch to a different input selection (as I would to use my VCR), the scanning is all screwed up for those other devices!

Of course it's addicting

[Smarty2120]

Everything we do that's enjoyable is addicting, otherwise it wouldn't be enjoyable. We feel happy when our brain releases one or more drugs to encourage certain behaviors (dopamine, serotonin, etc.). TV viewing, which I enjoy myself, is in the group of activities that triggers these drug releases, as are eating, drinking, spending time with friends, having sex, reading slashdot, getting code to work, etc. Sure, some things like narcotics bathe your brain in a lot more of these chemicals, but it's the same system at work.

Happiness comes in small doses folks. It's a cigarette, or a chocolate cookie, or a five second orgasm. That's it, ok! You cum, you eat the cookie, you smoke the butt, you go to sleep, you get up in the morning and go to f***ing work, ok!
- Denis Leary

Everyone's brains are stimulated by a different set of activities, and finding a set that best suits you is about as close to happiness as you're going to get. The reason people are up in arms is because you are pushing a set that suits you best onto other people which, less often is to improve their happiness and more often to improve yours through a brain chemical release trigger we all enjoy:
Having your beliefs validated by someone else's approval

Re:Are there any hardware PVRs without subscriptio

[Anonymous Coward]

i believe the current generation of DVD VCR's do not require a subscription. go to your local Best Buy and check them out. some of them also have hard drives, so you can record to either DVD or hard drive.

What exactly do you get for monthly payment?

[zcrates]

Is it just program listing or is there something else? I don't know how program listing is distributed, but paying $10+ to get just the listing is too much. Actually I think it should be free. Network and cable TV always show trailers to get more ratings. They should provide program listing for free if they want higher ratings in open format like XML free to download. Am I missing something here?

One 'lifetime service' change

[71thumper]

TiVo very quietly rolled out a service change to monthly users that says 'if your lifetime service box has not been active (that is, dialed in) in 6 months, then it will nor longer count for qualifying for the multi-TiVo discount.'

In short, for folks like me, who purchased a TiVo with lifetime back in 2001, and then had their Series 1 die, my replacement TiVo no longer gets the monthly discount.

That said, I called TiVo and made a stink (threatened to cancel) and they gave me the $6.95 rate anyway.

But like others I have concerns about the ever-cheapening hardware. If the Comcast-tivo's are anywhere near decent feature-wise (specifically, allow transfers), I will move to them when my current tivos die, specifically because I'd rather pay an extra 4-5 bucks a month and not own the hardware.

Backing away...

[Richard Steiner]

*Blink*

I really don't know how to react to that. :-)

Um. Time to read a good book, I think... Which I still do on occasion.

Re:Backing away...

[generic-man]

Translation: I'm really enjoying this season of 24 with Sean Astin (Samwise from the Lord of the Rings trilogy) as a know-nothing boss.

Re:Backing away...

[Richard Steiner]

Heh. Thanks for the explanation. I was almost ready to call the Nice Guys in White Coats for you. :-)

Re: Knoppmyth

[digitallife]

MythTV will underscan for you, check out the setup menu.

Failure to deliver hardware upgrades hurts

[swb]

I think one of Tivo's biggest blunders was a failure to deliver a churn of new hardware every 12-18 months that diehards like me would have been willing to invest in.

I can think of a number of incremental features -- digital audio recording/playback, CableCard 1.0 -- that I would have been willing to upgrade to if it had been available on new boxes. And those are obvious, problem-solving upgrades (digital audio from your cable box fed into a hifi is out of sync with the video output from the TV, CableCard of course eliminates IR blaster and cable box without losing pay and digital channels).

This doesn't include other hardware options like USB/1394 disk expansion, built-in 10/100/1000 network cards, component output, etc.

I'm glad they're coming out with S3 units that solve all the real technology hurdles (HD, cablecard), but I'm baffled why they wait so long to give people an option to buy something.

Re:Failure to deliver hardware upgrades hurts

[tacokill]

I echo your sentiments. Specifically, the CableCard comment. *THAT* was the way Tivo could be installed on most digital cable systems. Without CableCard support, all a person could do is record standard "analog" channels and FTA (free to air) HDTV channels - which are basically the local channels. No ESPN-HD or DiscoveryHD without a cable card. Also, no National Geography channel because its a "digital channel" -- not an analog channel. (note: on my system, analog channels are 2-78 and digital channels are 100+. HDTV channels are in the 700's and they are most definitely digital channels). Yes, you can do the IR blaster and use a regular cable box, but that kind of defeats the purpose anyway. If I wanted to do that, I could go buy a $75 capture card and store my shows on a PC.

And because Tivo is so damn late to the game, I had to make the jump FROM Tivo to my cable co's HDTV PVR (Motorola 6412). I hate it. I would rather have TiVo -- but not a crippled one.

To me, the CableCard issue *IS* the issue. Today, you STILL can't buy a Series3 and combine it with a CableCard. Even tho, CableCards are available (at least in my area....I actually have one in my TV).

Re:Failure to deliver hardware upgrades hurts

[swb]

I guess to each his own on the IR blasters, I think they work surprisingly well.

But even if Tivo released a box that was ONLY different because of CableCard support (ie, no HD, no digital audio), I'd be sorely tempted to buy it.

But the same is true of a number of other critical hardware features. I probably would have bought at least one new box along the way to S3 units if Tivo had released one with new features.

What's particularly annoying about recording HD channels with S2 Tivos is the way the HD cable box downrezzes the HD signal; I get forced letterboxing. I really wish that there was an anamorphic widescreen analog output. I can zoom the letterboxed picture on my Tivo, but since its recorded in SD the picture loses a lot.

Parent is Right

[dimension6]

I've also installed it multiple times. It's really terrific, but is very far from being mainstream usable, let alone installable. I remember the first time I installed it I didn't create a separate /video partition, and when it recorded right up to my hard disk space limit, the MySQL database got screwed up and everything stopped working. That was a real pain to figure out and fix, and is major enough to prevent everyday users from keeping MythTV running. Also, I was never able to get my Air2PC card working in MythTV (in all fairness, I wasn't able to get it working yet in Windows either).

I'm currently investigating SageTV's 14-day trial. Setup was really easy, and it provides most of the functionality (and lots of more refined details like the ability to choose "Delete this recording when space is needed") without the maintenance hassles. I will check out BeyondTV next...

Cheap Windows XP MCE alternative to MythTV...

[Anonymous Coward]

HP Pavilion s7320n ($550 - $50 MIR) plus Hauppauge WinTV PVR 150 w/MCE remote ($85) gives you most of the important functionality of TiVo (with no monthly subscription) along with DVD burning and all that other shit that comes with XP MCE.

The system measures 4.375" W x 13.125" D x 9.75" H. Power supply is internal and no external peripherals are needed.

Does Less Today

[Andy Social]

Yes. There are.