PS2 Controller Suit Goes Badly For Sony

Immersion Corp, which owns the patent on 'rumble' technology, has won another round in its suit against Sony. Sony's 'dualshock' controller has used rumble technology for years, and in 2005 a judge awarded $82 Million to the patent-holder in payment. From the article: "Sony's defence was the alleged nondisclosure of some of the inventions of key employee Craig Thorner. who has been a consultant both for Immersion and subsequently for Sony. But, according to the report, U.S. District Judge Claudia Wilken was unhappy with Thorner's testimony supporting Sony, given that he had also been paid by Sony, and so dismissed this line of defence."

Comments

This is just ridiculous

[ZakuSage]

We're talking about a fundamental principal discovered hundreds of years ago by Newton. How the hell was something as simple as a non-symmetric rotating mass patented in the first place?

Re:This is just ridiculous

[multipartmixed]

And, more importantly, why isn't Immersion suing pager manufacturers, and the manufacturers of vibrating cell phone batteries????

Re:This is just ridiculous

[9mm Censor]

It was patented in the USA through the US Patent Office. Thats how.

Re:This is just ridiculous

[Anonymous Coward]

My wife has had "rumble" technology in the "massager" she keeps under our bed for years. (Before you make fun of me because wifey needs a vibe, please have some sympathy- I lost my penis to a dog years ago. I was shaving my pubes, using peanut butter, which is a better lubricant than shaving cream, and the rest is history.)

Re:This is just ridiculous

[JordanL]

I think the patent was for instant feedback via rumbling... but yes... it is indeed a steaming pile.

Re:This is just ridiculous

[Alex P Keaton in da]

Or sex toys...
But seriously, vibrators have been used for years in mining, as well as fruit picking...
http://www.clevelandvibrator.com/ (Yes, it is suitable for work- it is a company that has, since 1923, made industrial vibrators)

Re:This is just ridiculous

[Richard_at_work]

Because unlike the majority thought on slashdot that goes 'All patents are extremely broad and prior art can be found in anything that remotely looks like it might use a part of the patented thing' - which is wrong - patents can include already known technology but applied in new ways, for example this would have been something like 'A electric motor induced vibration system that responds to a gaming environment manipulated by user inputs on consumer entertainment console systems and their controllers'. The prior art of, or usage in items such as pagers or cell phones would not have a standing here because it doesnt pertain to the precise grounds covered by the patent.

NB I dont know exactly waht the patent says, the above is simply an example as to how a patent can be applied to a new usage from old techniques.

Re:This is just ridiculous

[Xzzy]

It's not the rumble that was patented, but the specific implementation of it.

Nintendo has a rumbling implementation as well, yet they never got sued. Only a part of it was that Immersion got their patent a year or so after Nintendo made their implementation.. the other piece is that Nintendo's works much differently than what Immersion patented.

Sony (and Microsoft) however, ripped off Immersion's implementation. Microsoft knew they had no case, so settled. Sony thought they did, and put them where they are now.

Many patents are rediculous, but I don't think this particular case is one of them.

Re:This is just ridiculous

[Anonymous Coward]

"Shaving" huh, that's a new one. ;) ~CYD

Re:This is just ridiculous

[OnlineAlias]

Not new, Gillette owns the patent on a vibrating razor.

http://www.gillettem3power.com/us/home_f.asp

Re:This is just ridiculous

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"And, more importantly, why isn't Immersion suing pager manufacturers, and the manufacturers of vibrating cell phone batteries???? "

For the simple reason that a cell phone or a pager uses the vibration feature as a form of display, not interaction. The patent covers force feedback, not simple vibration. This is why vibrators and pagers aren't covered in the patent. Neither of which vibrate because you're controlling an entity within a video game.

You see, patents are typically pretty darn specific. Wanna know why the Rumble Pak didn't get Nintendo in trouble? Wait for it... wait for it... The Rumble Pak was an accessory to the controller and not built into it. Amazing, eh?

Re:This is just ridiculous

[Lalakis]

Nintendo has a rumbling implementation as well, yet they never got sued. Only a part of it was that Immersion got their patent a year or so after Nintendo made their implementation.. the other piece is that Nintendo's works much differently than what Immersion patented.

And the final piece is that Immersion is owned in part by Nintendo ;)

Re:This is just ridiculous

[wfberg]

That still doesn't deal with obviousness. Faced with the problem of providing additional feedback to the gamer, exploiting an additional sense (touch) isn't non-obvious. Stimulating touch by vibration isn't non-obvious (in fact it's just about cheapest way to do it, short from electrocution). I'd posit that the VAST majority of application patents, and probably ALL "business method" patents are stating the bleedingly obvious. In fact, so many patents are issued for application patents, people are just applying for every possible combination of existing methods and apparatuses for any use.

The greatest thing about application patents is that you don't even have to state which problem you're trying to solve, just "a method for *specific use* by *doing something*"; whether or not it's even better than another way isn't even in question - which explains the wealth of "but on the internet" patents.

Re:This is just ridiculous

[c_forq]

Actually Nintendo independently developed a different method for the vibration that was significantly different (I think it had something to do with two separate motors and how the engines worked). Notice how the Gamecube controllers "rumble" without an addition.

Re:This is just ridiculous

[Tony Hoyle]

Woot. Industrial strength vibrator!!

(btw. Dude.. thanks a bunch for the popup spam (brought up the winfixer spam that somehow bypasses the firefox popup blocker, than failed to load the page so I can't even see if it's a legit site). Pick your sites more carefully in future.)

Re:This is just ridiculous

[Tony Hoyle]

Actually just checked around a bit and it looks like the linked site is a malware site. Don't click it in IE otherwise you'll be infected (in firefox you get the 'do you want to install winfixer' but closing the window is enough to stop it... in IE it installs anyway).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WinFixer

So do *not* click the above link.

Re:This is just ridiculous

[Lehk228]

nintendo paid the license fee for the GCN controllers

Re:This is just ridiculous

[Anonymous Coward]

Instead of using "is not non-obvious", why don't you just say "is obvious". It's easier to read.

Re:This is just ridiculous

[oasisweb]

'A electric motor induced vibration system that responds to a gaming environment manipulated by user inputs on consumer entertainment console systems and their controllers'.

This is quite enough to constitute a patent that's too broad. It essentially authorizes a monopoly on all force feedback game controllers. It is the implementation that shuold be patented, not the idea, and as long as Sony's implementation of vibrating controllers is different it should not be a problem. Otherwise something like 'A electric motor induced vibration system that responds to an incoming transmission on portable communications equipment' would effectively require all mobile phone makers to pay royalties.

Re:This is just ridiculous

[Alex P Keaton in da]

Hi Bud- I am not sure what you clicked, but this link,
http://www.clevelandvibrator.com/
Is a site of a Cleveland Company.
If you don't believe me, here is a link to a website that mentions it: http://www.directindustry.com/soc/cleveland-vibrat or/pneumatic-ball-vibrator-14397-104376.html
I would not link to a malware site...
Yes,there is a product called a ball vibrator.
Here is the text from the homepage-
Cleveland Vibrator Expertise Since 1923
pneumatic vibrators for industry Industrial Vibrators: Vibratory Equipment:
* air piston (pneumatic) vibrators * single impactors * miniature air piston vibrators * lubrication-free coated air piston vibrators * ball vibrators * rotary electric vibrators * electromagnetic vibrators * vibratory feeders * tables (grid top, flat, jogger, shake-out, belt * screeners * laboratory test sieves * ultrasonic screeners * Hybrute screener * H K Technologies Not sure which vibrator to choose? Need help choosing equipment? Please fill out our quote request forms to find which type of vibrator would best suit your specific application and one of our sales staff will contact you. Please fill out our quote request forms to find which type of equipment would best suit your specific application and one of our engineers will contact you. We carry a most comprehensive line of industrial vibrators including bin vibrators, hopper vibrators, foundry vibrators, pneumatic vibrators, railcar vibrators, rollover & core machine vibrators, etc., in many sizes and varieties. Unlike competitive models, most Cleveland Vibrator's air piston models are shipped complete with mounting hardware, which are all grade five rated bolts. We supply an exhaust protector to not only assist in reducing the noise but also help prevent impurities from entering the vibrator exhaust. Our units are of a one-piece casting design, plus our pistons are a double-diameter design requiring no spring, meaning that they will start in any position. All of this at no extra cost! In need of a special coating or material for high heat or corrosive environment? Check out our special coatings or stainless steel and nickel-plated products. Call our sales department for more information for your particular application. Cleveland Vibrator manufactures a complete line of air and electric-powered feeders, screeners, conveyors, and tables for bulk material applications. Feeders and Screeners are available in various trough shapes, mild and stainless steel construction, and various coatings for light, medium, and heavy-duty applications. Vibratory tables and packers are designed to handle material loads from under 10 lbs. to over 16,000 lbs. Screeners can screen down to 5 micron.

Re:This is just ridiculous

[FLAGGR]

No, that is not true. It is a different design from that of sony-microsoft-immersions.

Re:This is just ridiculous

[KDR_11k]

If it was so bloody obvious, why did nobody get the idea to do it before Nintendo came along with the
RumblePak (which predates Immersion's patents but covers a different implementation)? Of course it's obvious to use the sense of touch but it's not obvious how to build hardware to do that. It's just as obvious to make a controller that responds to being moved in space or pointed at a point in space but it's not obvious how to build that.

Besides, patents don't cover an idea or a goal, they cover a specific implementation, in this case attaching a noncentered weight to an electric motor with an intensity controllable by the software and stuffing two of those into a gamepad. If that was so bloody obvious Sony wouldn't have needed a guy from Immersion to tell them how to do that.

whether or not it's even better than another way isn't even in question

That's important because someone might have patented the better way already so you have to search for an alternative implementation that does not violate the previous patent.

Re:This is just ridiculous

[KDR_11k]

It is the implementation that shuold be patented, not the idea, and as long as Sony's implementation of vibrating controllers is different it should not be a problem.

It is the implementation that is patented. Sony chose to use the exact same implementation while Nintendo is completely untouchable by Immersion because they use a different implementation and have their own patents on that.

Re:This is just ridiculous

[KDR_11k]

The patent specifically covers having force feedback through two motors in a gamepad. Immersion has separate patents for gamepads, joysticks, wheels, etc. Nintendo isn't in trouble because their patent predates Immersion's and their implementation differs in the number of motors, the placement of the weight (one uses weights build into the motor mechanism, the other has the weight attached to the motor) and does not offer variable strength of vibration AFAIK. That the RumbePak was not built in would not be a sufficient difference since that step is obvious.

In other words, Nintendo invented it, Immersion improved it. Sony decided to copy Nintendo, decided to improve it to avoid Nintendo's patent and ran directly into Immersion's patent (and Immersion claims Sony deliberately used Immersion's technology). Microsoft saw what Sony did, decided it's a good idea and did the same. Even though MS had prior dealings with Immersion (remember the Sidewinder Force Feedback products?) they didn't bother to get a license from them.

Re:This is just ridiculous

[Karem Lore]

Ergo I can patent:

'An electric motor induced vibration system that responds to a gaming environment manipulated by user inputs [ using their hands ] on consumer entertainment console systems and their controllers'

My addition [ using their hands ] is slightly more specific and based on old technology. However, this doesn't fit as their technology would incorporate mine, hence your argument falls flat.

How about:

'An electric motor induced vibration system that responds to [an artificial environment on a HD TV via HDMI] manipulated by user inputs on consumer entertainment console systems and their controllers'

It just doesn't work...patents that is.

karem

Re:This is just ridiculous

[bit01]

If it was so bloody obvious, why did nobody get the idea to do it before Nintendo came along with the RumblePak (which predates Immersion's patents but covers a different implementation)?

I have the idea of opening a hardware store in some small town that's hasn't had a hardware store since it was established hundreds of years ago. By your reasoning I should be able to get a patent on that idea so nobody can create a competitor without licensing from me at my price in that town. After all, I invested significant amounts of my time and money to get it going. A hardware store in that town can't be obvious because nobody's tried to do it for hundreds of years.

You need to get off your high horse and acknowledge that lack of prior art is a necessary but not sufficient evidence for lack of obviousness. Patent boosters continually trot out the lack of prior art argument as if it means something and it's just bogus.

In addition patent boosters just handwave when it comes to determining what prior art is. Whether prior art exists depends critically on how amorphous ideas are categorised into the neat boxes the legal system likes to use.

That categorisation of patents is done largely by the patent office with very little critical thought about what the categories should be, how those categories should be abstracted from the English language and how borderline cases should be categorised. e.g. When are two colors the same? When are two ideas the same? Pick your language to get a different answer.

---

Creating simple artificial scarcity with copyright and patents on things that can be copied billions of times at minimal cost is a fundamentally stupid economic idea.

Re:This is just ridiculous

[KDR_11k]

I have the idea of opening a hardware store in some small town that's hasn't had a hardware store since it was established hundreds of years ago. By your reasoning I should be able to get a patent on that idea so nobody can create a competitor without licensing from me at my price in that town.

An idea is not patentable, an implementation is patentable. And I think these days you could really patent your hardware store (the exact way the store works, not the idea of opening a store) if you could prove that it is sufficiently different from other hardware stores in a non-obvious way.

Don't read a patent's abstract and think "Boy, I could have thought of that" or "I've seen that before", read the specific claims. A patent is more than an idea or a purpose, it is an implementation. How obvious is it to build two electromotors into a controller at different angles and having their mechanism form unbalanced weights with both being controlled independently by the software? Obviously not very or you'd have seen Atari do that. Of course it's easy to say "I could have thought of that" but AFAIK obvious means only implied by the description of the components. "Electromotor" does not imply "add unbalanced weight and stuff two of them into a gamepad".

Hmm

[Cyno01]

Why does this have a Sony icon, but not the Dual Shock controller PS2 icon. It would seem more apropriate...

Re:Hmm

[EggyToast]

Obviously, it's better to infringe on a trademark compared to a copyrighted image of a controller.

Re:Hmm

[BecomingLumberg]

Well, the DualShock controller might not represent sony much longer...

Prior Art

[Kenja]

You can pick up some prior art and your local adult boutique.

Re:Prior Art

[dnoyeb]

Actually I think a much closer piece of prior art is the ".1" of Dolby Surround Systems. Not sure if that would fare better from a patent perspective though. But if Sony is doing Dolby Surround, they can easily claim the controller is the .1.

Re:prior art

[geekoid]

gah.
The technical mechanism for creating the vibration is what is patented.

No prior art has been found for this device. If I come up with a new way to make the controller vibrate, then I could patent that.

That like say a tire company can't patent it's tire technology because there is prior art on the wheel.

Re:prior art

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a lot of arcade games with force feedback. Do none of these apply to this patent?

Besides driving games, many of which are fairly new, I also recall an uncle fester game where you would have to hold onto two hand grips as he "shocked" you.

Re:prior art

[mondotom]

I don't know if is a specific mechanism in question or if it was the act of vibrating that is in question. I assumed it was the haptics patents and use of vibration. it can get more complicated... prior art can make an invention obvious therefore invalid

Re:Prior Art

[steveo777]

Gives a whole new meaning to Nintendo's old slogan, doesn't it?

Now You're Playing with Power!"

Re:Prior Art

[Anonymous Coward]

So you wrote an article, which you didn't provide a good link to and I am therefore to lazy to read. That does not make you an expert or make what you wrote here not BS. Having a patent is not a defense to patent infringement. Its like saying owning a gun prevents you from getting shot. It might if you can shoot the other person first or otherwise make it not worth their while but its not going to keep you from getting hit by a bullet.
Second, you can fight the validity of a patent in court. It may be easier to seek reexamination in the patent office but if your argument is not good enough for a judge theres a good chance it won't fly with an examiner either.

Re:Prior Art

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry try this
http://www.macworld.com/forums/ubbthreads/showflat .php?Cat=&Board=newsthread&Number=309449&page=23&v

There not going after nintendo because nintendo can protect themselves in court with thir own patent.
But with sony they will keep losing in courts and have to resort to geting patent office to overturn. but this will take too long and they would lose in courts before the patent is overturned.
But with nintendo they both can protect themselves in cort. Then both have to go to paten office at same time. Hence patents can be proved void at same time.

Re:Sleazbags

[Anonymous Coward]

So what you're saying is that a legitimate patent holder should not be able to fight against a large coporation who stole their patented device?

Wow ... That's a good idea ... What's next that you can't fight a coporation who causes you phisical harm?

PS2 Controller Suit...

[sbaker]

A PS2 Controller Suit - neato!

Am I the only one who read this and instantly imagined this jump-suit that you'd wear that could maybe read your arm and leg positions to put you directly control your PS2?

Instead we get details of some bogus lawsuit about bogus stuff that we really don't care about.

Whatever happened to cool stuff?

Re:PS2 Controller Suit...

[Anonymous Coward]

Whatever happened to cool stuff?

This is /. We don't talk about stuff like that any more.

Re:PS2 Controller Suit...

[Itninja]

I am still waiting for Nintendo's Rumble Shorts(tm) to hit the US market!

Re:PS2 Controller Suit...

[Anonymous Coward]

Am I the only one who read this and instantly imagined this jump-suit that you'd wear that could maybe read your arm and leg positions to put you directly control your PS2?
 
Yes.

Re:PS2 Controller Suit...

[kyouteki]

Have you ever heard of Nintendo's Power Glove? No? Exactly.

(If you have heard of it, then you still know why.)

Re:PS2 Controller Suit...

[GigsVT]

Whatever happened to cool stuff?

The lawyers petitioned the court for injunctive relief regarding the disclosure of information that may comprise in whole or part "cool stuff".

Re:PS2 Controller Suit...

[GungaDan]

Heh - Nintendo... Smell the Glove.

Re:PS2 Controller Suit...

[drinkypoo]

The funny thing is that the power glove enjoyed a great deal of use as a low-budget VR controller, mostly on the Amiga computer (at least as I'm familiar with it.) I kind of suspect that most of what's wrong with it can be solved in software.

Re:PS2 Controller Suit...

[Anonymous Coward]

All the cool stuff like that got moved to the video game fantasy industry, which sony dominates, but they can't keep dreaming up crazy things like that because people keep sueing them for stealing their work or installing spyware into every CD they make, or the like. Why don't you bullies just leave Sony alone so it can go back to make us PS2 controller jump-suits!

Re:PS2 Controller Suit...

[Stunning Tard]

Am I the only one who read this and instantly imagined this jump-suit that you'd wear that could maybe read your arm and leg positions to put you directly control your PS2?

Yes.

No.

Nintendo

[HoosierPeschke]

And yet Nintendo has escaped lawsuit? I remember way back when getting the bulky rumble pak for the N64. Prior Art?

Re:Nintendo

[tuffy]

As I recall, Nintendo implements their rumble feature in a way that isn't covered by the patent. Thus, no lawsuit.

Re:Nintendo

[Anonymous Coward]

Both Nintendo and Microsoft licensed Immersion Corp.'s technology legally for use in their controllers. Sony didn't.

Re:Nintendo

[MMaestro]

Also, Microsoft pays Immersion Corp for use of their patent (at least for the Xbox, I don't know about the 360). Sony is really the only one fighting this at this point.

Re:Nintendo

[Anonymous Coward]

I cannot find it at the moment, but IIRC, Nintendo escaped unscathed by this suit because their Rumble Pak was an external attachment to the controller, and as such, avoided the patent dispute.

Reading the wiki reveals that a company named CH Products had released a force feedback tech 1 month before Nintendo, which has now the standard and has been used in subsequent controllers across all platforms.

Re:Nintendo

[BinaryOpty]

The rumble pak and Gamecube controller use one unbalanced weight in the center whereas the Dual Shocks and Xbox controllers use two different unbalanced weights, one on each side of the controller. The patent is for the two weight configuration so Nintendo gets away scott free.

Re:Nintendo

[HolyCrapSCOsux]

They need a PS2 MultiShock(tm) controller. 2 rotating weights and electrodes. So when U are playing games and you get "hit" by an opponent, you get an electric shock!. kinda like these

Re:Nintendo

[Midnight Thunder]

They need a PS2 MultiShock(tm) controller. 2 rotating weights and electrodes. So when U are playing games and you get "hit" by an opponent, you get an electric shock!. kinda like these

That would be cool for the new Revolution controllers.

Re:Nintendo

[SetupWeasel]

No, Nintendo made their Rumble Pack first and they made it differently.

Re:Nintendo

[gstoddart]

The rumble pak and Gamecube controller use one unbalanced weight in the center whereas the Dual Shocks and Xbox controllers use two different unbalanced weights, one on each side of the controller. The patent is for the two weight configuration so Nintendo gets away scott free.

So ... we should run out and try to patent the three weight configuration now? Jump the gun and go straight for four? Is the single-weight version already patented?

Can I patent a new XZylophone which is just like a Xylophone but has one more plate to whack?

I'm not dissing you, you gave a rational explaination -- or as rational as available. But, exactly at what point does the idea of pententing existing thing with one more identical component not become absurd?

I'm sure the razor companies are fighting it over who owns the patent for 3, 4, 5, 6, and higher number razor blades. But I just can't fathom there is anything materially different about them to be patentable.

Wierd.

Re:Nintendo

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"And yet Nintendo has escaped lawsuit? I remember way back when getting the bulky rumble pak for the N64. Prior Art? "

Nintendo escaped because the Rumble Pak wasn't actually built into the controller. (Same goes for the Dreamcast.) Now you know why that functionality wasn't simply built in.

Re:Nintendo

[Anonymous Coward]

With the razors, I believe the patents are normally on the method of making the blades such that they can be used in the razor (there was supposedly a difference in the way the 2 and 3 blade razor blades were made when the 3-bladed ones were first introduced), not the actual number of blades.

Re:Nintendo

[LionMage]

I'm sure the razor companies are fighting it over who owns the patent for 3, 4, 5, 6, and higher number razor blades. But I just can't fathom there is anything materially different about them to be patentable.

That's why when you write a patent, you try to make its claims as broad as possible (e.g., "...for configurations of 3 or more razor blades," or in the context of this article, "...for configurations of 2 or more unbalanced weights driven by electric motors."), and when you're trying to work around someone else's patent, you find all the loopholes and exploit them (e.g., "Oh, look, they didn't cover the case for a single unbalanced weight!").

I used to work for a material scientist who was adept at both activities. He was very good at finding corner cases where other people's patents didn't apply, and then he'd file a patent on the corner case as an improvement to the original patent he was working around. Current patent law allows you to patent improvements to someone else's patented invention or process. (Traditionally, "process" means manufacturing process, although business process patents now seem to be allowed.)

My boss was also good at making his own patents nice and broad to insure that his competitors would violate his IP. He had this fabulous patent on a method for growing a crystalline probe that would be formed on the end of a fiber optic cable. The probe had a face that was at a specific angle with respect to the long axis of the crystal, which he calculated to be the optimal angle for this face, but his patent was written to allow for a range of angles. Sure enough, some company that was using this technology to probe oil wells violated my boss' patent, and of course he went after them to defend his IP. The competitor's product, IIRC, didn't use the optimal angle for the crystal face, but it didn't matter, as they still were within the claims of the patent.

Of course, there are some modifications which are materially insignificant -- like how many legs your apparatus has to stand off the ground -- but most patent authors these days like to leave nothing to chance.

Re:Nintendo

[Orion Blastar]

Ok so what if the new PS3 controller has three unbalanced weights in it instead of two? Heeheheheehehehe, Sony beat the system, pwned! Now how about four, five, six, ehehehehehehe, just keep adding unbalanced weights to make it a totally new patent!

See how silly that sounds? Like making a car with five wheels and then saying the four wheel patent does not apply to it.

Re:Nintendo

[j00r0m4nc3r]

It's the US patent system we're talking about. It doesn't have to make sense.
;)

Re:Nintendo

[d34thm0nk3y]

The rumble pak and Gamecube controller use one unbalanced weight in the center whereas the Dual Shocks and Xbox controllers use two different unbalanced weights, one on each side of the controller. The patent is for the two weight configuration so Nintendo gets away scott free.

So will the ps3 come with a triple-shock controller?

Re:Nintendo

[rohlfinator]

"So will the ps3 come with a triple-shock controller?"

Yes. Sony has already announced that the current "boomerang" model is not final.

Fortunately, an industry insider has been granted access to a beta version of this rumored "Triple Shock controller". He has generously taken a photograph of this top-secret prototype, which can be found here.

Re:Nintendo

[jizmonkey]

Like making a car with five wheels and then saying the four wheel patent does not apply to it.

You're exactly wrong. I don't know if you're trying to be funny or if you make a point of talking about things you know nothing about.

Re:Nintendo

[somersault]

apart from the fact that they're wireless and would run out of batteries pretty quick if they shocked? And it's designed to be a one handed thing so you wouldnt probably drop it if you weren't expecting a shock.

Re:Nintendo

[Orion Blastar]

I am trying to be funny.

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[VJ42]

Who to side for?? Help me!! :-(

I think two words aught to help you: "root" and "kit". Companies like Immersion arn't exactly nice, but Sony is worse.

Could this..

[Anonymous Coward]

perhaps have any correlation to the PS3 delays? Waiting to find out what will happen to their tried-and-true Dualshock controllers? From the boomerang shape of the demo controller at E3, it would seem Sony wants to hold onto the dualshock design, but does this suit keep them from implementing their old methods?

This doesn't by any means overshadow the other hardware-related, possible causes for the delays, but might this be a contributing factor no one has mentioned previously?

-NIs

Re:Could this..

[mgabrys_sf]

Not sure an 89 million dollar speedbump would get in the way of a multibillion dollar rollout.

It'd be akin to halting the rollout of a new car because the hubcaps aren't paid for.

Re:Could this..

[Anonymous Coward]

You missed the point. Sony has only used the Dualshock design since introducing it. Do they now have to reinvent the wheel to use force feedback? Are they going to have to pay copious amounts of money for the license to use existing tech now that they've been slapped in the face? and most importantly, do they have to wait for the results of this trial to find out what their options are for their PS3 controllers?

And it's nothing like halting a car rollout because of hubcaps, it's like halting a car rollout because there's a problem in the steering column that prevents the driver from feeling road conditions as you steer the vehicle. (for an example, think: "force feedback steering wheels that mimic driving on ice, dirt, etc")

-Nis

Re:Could this..

[SetupWeasel]

No, they just pay the fee.

Re:Could this..

[HiRoll3r]

Nope. It's Sony's inability to keep the system from overheating after a few moments of use that's holding it back. I haven't read the specs on the PS3 controller, but I'd guess that Sony *may* want to make a change to it's rumble feature to something that won't incur further legal action.

Re:Could this..

[Anonymous Coward]

Last I heard the PS3 was still on schedule for a late 2006 US release which was the plan since it was unveiled. The only delays I've heard are for the Japan launch. When Sony says the PS3 will be released in spring '06 did you really think that they meant in the US?

Re:Could this..

[LoverOfJoy]

It's possible that that was internally the plan and maybe even speculated upon by others very early on but back when the xbox 360 was coming out in the US in late 2005 I didn't hear much mention from Sony of the PS3 coming out a YEAR later. No, then it was hyped--"you COULD buy the 360 now OR you could wait for a much better system that's coming out in the spring!"

Re:Could this..

[Breakfast Pants]

Ah but you see. it was only 89 million because the judge determined the infringment wasn't willful(what the hell that has to do with damages is a testiment to our fucked up power grabbing civil system that tries to be a criminal system). If they went ahead and infringed again they would be in for some huge damages. I'm sure licensing this patent is extremely expensive as well, because the company surely knows that everyone expects vibration out of their console controllers now.

I wonder how long ago....

[szembek]

I wonder when they supposedly developed this technology. Video game controllers to my knowledge have had this functionality at least since the n64 Rumble Pak.

Re:I wonder how long ago....

[LionMage]

Yes, but the Nintendo 64 rumble pack didn't have multi-axis rumble features.

The dual shock design has two motors for vibration, and IIRC they're mounted along different axes so you can have multi-dimensional vibrational feedback. I think it's a bit of a stretch to call this true "force feedback," but whatever. (To my mind, force feedback implies that you push on a control and it "pushes back," like steering wheels that simulate difficult turns and joysticks that simulate a stuck rudder or elevator on an aircraft.)

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[ivan256]

Who to side for?? Help me!! :-(

You shouldn't think for yourself. From now on, either repost what I post, or just look for my posts and reply with "MOD PARENT UP!".

Seriously though, this company isn't *totally* unknown. They designed the crap that goes in Logitech's force feedback stuff. I have a mouse with their stuff in it, and it actually seems fairly clever. It's like you can "feel" the stuff on your screen. It's a little noisy though.

In perspective

[wombatmobile]

We're talking about 1.37% of revenue:

FTA

In the last ruling against Sony, made in early 2005, Judge Claudia Wilken of the U.S. District Court levied an $82 million award to Immersion Corp., or 1.37% of Sony's sales of PlayStations and PlayStation-related paraphernalia. The $82 million is less than the $299 million originally sought by Immersion Corp., but the court ruled that Sony's infringement of the vibration patents was not willful and therefore not deserving of the full penalties.

Re:In perspective

[CastrTroy]

Now the important part. What is Sony's profit margin?

Re:In perspective

[Wordsmith]

1.37 percent is a LOT. A freaking LOT. And this is revenue, not profit.

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[Anonymous Coward]

Immersion is hardly an unknown company. They have hundreds of patents for their force-feedback technology and many products by many companies (including Microsoft) based on their licenses. Sony is just about the only major remaining holdout in the gaming industry.

Re:Sleazbags

[einstienbc]

Prior art. After all, women have used vibrations to heighten a sensation since at least the early 1900's

What about out -of-balance tires

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, OT, but we have been balancing car tires for years? This is just a small version of a spinning unbalanced tire? How is this new?

Re:This is just ridiculous - not really

[kansas1051]

I dont think Newton had a video game system or a force-feedback controller. The scope of a patent is determined by its claims, not based on what a slashdot summary says. The claims of this patent are limited to a force-feedback controller

Sony could have licensed this patent for a few dollars several years ago (like everyone else did), but instead they relied on a frivolous legal theory (inequitable conduct) to invalidate the patent. Despite attempts by numerous big companies to invalidate this patent based on prior art, no one has ever located any meaningful prior art. The only issue in Sony's case was inequitable conduct (lying to the patent office), and the only evidence Sony presented was testimony from an "expert" they paid.

Another one?!

[Pearson]

If it weren't for the fact that it takes so many years for these kinds of suits to make it throught the courts, I'd be inclined to think there was some shadowy force orchestrating all these high-profile patent cases to all make the news at the same time!

Time to dust off the old tin foil hat, I guess.

MOD PARENT UP!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously though, this company isn't *totally* unknown. They designed the crap that goes in Logitech's force feedback stuff. I have a mouse with their stuff in it, and it actually seems fairly clever. It's like you can "feel" the stuff on your screen. It's a little noisy though.

contrary to slashdot likes to group think

[geekoid]

the idea of something vibrating is not what has been patent.
How these particular products vibrates is the patent.
There has yet to be any prior art found on this implementation, and several controller makers have tried.

prior art

[mondotom]

There is prior art of vibration for feeback in user input device demonstrated in public forum. Where are all the old Atari then Apple people? Alan are you out there? This reminds me of the xerox graffiti vs palm patent war... I have to imagine that someone demonstrated that Ledeen-Teitelman created a single stroke character recognition, years I mean decades before graffiti.

Bad Year

[highwaytohell]

This is a real bad time for Sony.

Format Wars
Xbox 360 popularity
Rootkitting CD's
PS3 delays
Ipod (yes this is bad for Sony)
Lawsuits from vendors

All this bad publicity surely can't be doing the company any good. At this point in time, the CEO would be sacked at most companies i am aware of, but it's not happening here. you have to wonder if the morale within the company is any good also. I hope their lawyers get paid well.

Re:Bad Year

[TheScottishGuy]

the morale in the legal department must be top notch, knowing your job is totally secure will do that to you.

Re:Bad Year

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. I own a PS2. I think if I were to do it all overagain with what I know now it'd be a Gamecube. Go ahead and laugh. I scoffed at it at first. Now though I kind of regret it-Soul Calibur 2 has a much better controll on the GameCube. The GameCube games have better 'stick' power. Honestly if it weren't for Square and Nintendo's falling out (thus no FF ___ for the big N) I'd have punted on the Ps2- and that's the highest praise anyone can pay a game company- their story telling compells you to purchase a POS game system from a POS company that's lost it.

Re:Bad Year

[IflyRC]

Don't forget what they've done to Star Wars Galaxies as well. Very bad year for Sony overall.

Re:Bad Year

[Anonymous Coward]

If anything, the Xbox 360 popularity is helping Sony. It's a failure, and most development companies are EOL'ing their 360 efforts to target Nintendo DS, PS3, and Revolution.

Yet another brainwashed /.er

[hsoft]

Yet another slashdotter who is so brainwashed that s/he can't even make a clear judgment.

You must be on Apple's side, insensitive clod!

In Reference to Prio Art Claims

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because certain cases of rumble technology existed, does not mean they used the particular methods that dual shock and xbox controllers use.

Immersion is not a "relatively unkown company". At least not to me. I remember buying logitech mice 5 years ago branded with "immersion touch sense" technology, which had user configurable rollover vibrations.

Again just because "rumble" technology existed beforehand, does not mean there is prior art of this specific method.

Considering microsoft was wise enough to pay up (and MS fights everything they think they should) it suggests sony is just being stupid.

Re:This is just ridiculous - not really

[Nazmun]

Dual shock has no force feedback features. It just rumbles... Force feedback provides feedback with built in motors that cause you to fight the controller.

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[Anonymous Coward]

Patent crap from totally unknown companies...

Should a patent be invalid just because a company is unknown?

Re:Pat Robertson: Asshole +1, Infomative

[PastAustin]

If you want a story posted on Slashdot...
Submit It!
ps: Informative is spelt Informative.

Good. If it is patented and the company (Immersion) was using the patent I think this is a good thing. Patent infringement isn't cool. If this were a case of a patent troll like NTP, I'd be all for Sony but in this situation... Sony screwed up. Pay the price. Is Sony still keeping it's head above water? Cause they have been screwing up pretty much weekly.

I'm still getting a PS3 when it comes out. Winter 2007!!!!

Re:This is just ridiculous - not really

[inca34]

Let's not forget that this paid "expert" in quotations is the inventor of said technology. Of course he was paid to invent and develop it. What the hell kind of argument is it to say that because an engineer was paid to do his job his testimony concerning technolgy he invented has no relevance as to how the technology can be used legally?

Re:This is just ridiculous - not really

[Armchair Dissident]

Despite attempts by numerous big companies to invalidate this patent based on prior art, no one has ever located any meaningful prior art

Sorry, but since when was a patent's validity determined soley by the existence of prior art? Non-obvious is also a requirement.

Sony don't have a "force feed-back" system as I understand it - think the steering wheel controller in the force-feedback steering wheel in Hard Drivin' in the arcades that made it hard to stear if you went of the road - what Sony have is a controller that rumbles a varied amount based on an analogue signal.

Anne Summers have had such controllers for decades.

I'm suprised that the fact that they paid a consoltant to provide evidence in a civil case should count against them as well. Or even be particularly suspicious. If the judge felt that the consultant lied, or deliberately mis-represented the facts, then the judge should say so, and perhaps press for perjury charges (an oath is an oath is an oath). I can't see how he can dismiss his testimony based purely on the fact that he had been paid by Sony because he was an employee.

Of course, if someone provides the patent number then I'll be happy to eat my words if something about it really is more novel than that true force-feedback steering wheel of the 1980s.

Re:Sleazbags

[ChronoReverse]

Nope. They patented the use of two unbalanced weighted motors in a video game controller. This was a very specific patent. Nintendo uses a single unbalanced weighted motor so they're okay. Microsoft paid the licensing fee. Sony didn't.

You have got to be kidding me

[LeonGeeste]

Havine one unbalanced weight is "obvious", but adding a second is patent-worthy?

*burying face in palms*

Re:You have got to be kidding me

[Anonymous Coward]

Havine one unbalanced weight is "obvious", but adding a second is patent-worthy?

I call prior art on n+2 unbalanced weights.

Re:You have got to be kidding me

[lazyl]

Nobody said that one unbalanced weight is 'obvious' or not 'patent-worthy'. It almost certainly is patented, but the point is that it's a different patent then the one Sony violated.

Re:You have got to be kidding me

[SanityInAnarchy]

The point being made is that prior art exists. Having the one weight gets one patent, but adding a second is a new patent?

If the same rules applied to copyrights, could I claim that yes, indeed, the original game was copyrighted, but the game + crack that I downloaded is different because it's now cracked, and thus, not copyright infringement?

And how's that offtopic?

Re:You have got to be kidding me

[LeonGeeste]

Check my history. Check my freaks list. People mod me down because they hate me, not necessarily because it was warranted.

They Still Have Japan Cornerd

[Nazmun]

Xbox360 isn't doing so hot in japan because their barely moving any units there at all. Sony is like a national brand to them so no matter what the hell they charge people will buy it. For example, for big games companies charge almost 2x as much as average games over there. FFXII will be out for about $90 USD in japan.

Here's a sample of XBox360 sale data in japan
http://www.craxtion.com/content/view/133/2/

Even the launch was horrid:
http://news.com.com/Study+Xbox+360+sales+start+slo w+in+Japan/2100-1043_3-5992548.html

The xbox360 presence in japan is almost negligible and it's not performing particularily well in the states either. While sales are much better here it's not anywhere near dominating.

Re:They Still Have Japan Cornerd

[Bagels]

To be honest, it's looking more and more as if *Nintendo* has Japan cornered. Look at the craze surrounding the DS Lite launches, and the top-ten-games lists dating back to the middle of last year. Once in a while a PS2 or PSP title will push its way in, but the consistent best-sellers (like the Brain Training games and Animal Crossing) are all DS titles. The PSP isn't doing shabby, either - it's pretty consistently in second - but neither it nor the PS2 approach the DS' performance, even speaking historically (the DS is selling faster than the PS2 ever did).

The clincher will (or will not, dependant) be the Revolution launch in Japan. A lot of developers have expressed tremendous interest in it, but the publishers have been quiet. Of course, the Revolution is sort of being marketed as a "companion" console - riding alongside a Sony or Microsoft machine - but I personally think that marketing is only for the hard-core, Famitsu-reading Japanese gamers. Nintendo seems pretty confidant that it'll also be picked up by large numbers of more casual gamers who wouldn't bother with the expensive competition.

Reform?

[Ed State]

To a techie hobbyist guy that gets an idea occasionally, the US patent system seems intimidating. Or at least expensive. But then it there's all these people/companies out there patenting every possible iteration of generic things like "video goggles"... gorsh. I dunno.

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[Anonymous Coward]

Immersion is hardly an unknown company for feedback sensitive devices. They have been in the medical community for years and also leasing their technology to manufacturers of input devices. If they did not have a viable right on their technology I hardly think companies like logitech would pay royalties. Sony could have leased the technology themselves, but apparently prefers to pay their legal team more than play fair.

Re:Sleazbags

[peterfa]

Well, you can sue the corporation, but you can't sue the owners. Corporations protect the owners so if they do nasty things, you can only get the corporation. Of course, you could peirce the corporate veil, but that's hard, and you can only get the board of directors at that point. The owners still get away scott free.

PS2

[42Penguins]

Hopefully this will be the end of the PS2 controller. Explaining the parts of a computer to nontechiados: "...your PS/2 keyboard. Whaa, I can hook up my playstation controller, too?"

Re:PS2

[Anonymous Coward]

PS/2 keyboards? they still use that?!

Wow... Sony lost twice!

[bhunachchicken]

I guess you could call that a double blow.

Or maybe even a dual shock! LOL!! :)

Re:Wow... Sony lost twice!

[Anonymous Coward]

I wrote about this patent dispute before.
Immersion is making a claim for the principle of linking video to vibrations.
Furthermore making a claim to hold rights to technology that creates different vibrations for different videos eg a crash produces a different vibration to moving over rough ground.

All this technology was seen in Ataris OutRun video machiene 25 years earlier

Re:Wow... Sony lost twice!

[NoahsMyBro]

If I recall correctly, A) Out Run was designed & manufactured by SEGA, not Atari, AND B) I don't recall Out Run having any sort of Force Feedback technology.

Re:Wow... Sony lost twice!

[G-funk]

-1, Groan

Re:Wow... Sony lost twice!

[SheeEttin]

Or maybe even a dual shock

Only if she bites down.

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[grahamdrew]

Does it really matter; what ever happened to casual indifference? I don't understand why you feel you need to have a strong position either way.

Re:This is just ridiculous - not really

[Traiklin]

three things came together to do that,

1: It deals with Technology and patents (a lethal combo)

2: It was a US judge (remember they don't understand technology and don't have to)

3: The Judge probably got one of the "rootkit" CD's and is taking it out directly on Sony.

there is also the possible #4: the judge just hates the japanese, but that one is a bit of a stretch.

but back to it being a US court, if the judge had allowed the one who invented the technology to speak Immersion wouldn't have a case any longer and would go out of buisness (in the Judges mind) where as Sony could afford to lose money.

the thing I am wondering though, is why it took Immersion 7 years to file the patent infringment suit, it's not like Sony was trying to hide how the controller worked, anyone who took it apart could see it. If you owned a patent for something and someone came out with a product that featured things your patent (and Product, I say that's how the patent should work) has wouldn't you be just a tad bit curious about it?

Re:Sleazbags

[russ1337]

so your saying if they used three they would've gotten away with it - if it wasnt for those pesky kids!!!

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[Anonymous Coward]

no, but i reckon you should have to actually sell a product to the market, not just be a patent whore. The exclusive right should be for the period of the patent or until you stop marketing manufacturing or selling the product containing the technology, whichever comes first (third party licensing excluded).

Re:Sony is the devil

[hkgroove]

No, no, no! You got it wrong. It's now "You keep what you kill." Since Sony didn't kill the consultant, they have no rights to any technology he brought over.

Re:Sleazbags

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"Prior art. After all, women have used vibrations to heighten a sensation since at least the early 1900's "

There's a root-kit joke to be made here, but I haven't had my second cup of coffee yet.

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[Retroneous]

You don't need to have a strong position either way, but the rule to remember is simple.

If you have no opinion, don't post "I have no opinion." and/or "I really don't know what to think." - Because its just very, very sad.

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[CableModemSniper]

Um, I don't think this is the usual "company that exists for the sake of having a patent portfolio and suing people." At least according to their website, they you know, make stuff.

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[drinkypoo]

Rooting for companies with bad patents because they're going after someone you don't like is wrong. It's a direct endorsement of the current, broken patent system. (Vibration has been used for feedback for ages, though not in game controllers...)

Re:Totally offtopic, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

many of the numbers appear here... http://www.math.utah.edu/~pa/math/largeprime.html It could be one of the other mersenne primes.

then again, i'm not taking any chances and have my tinfoil hat at hand...

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[IAmTheDave]

I think two words aught to help you: "root" and "kit". Companies like Immersion arn't exactly nice, but Sony is worse.

And rootkits may be evil, but at the root of the rootkit problem are things like the DMCA and software and business process patents, and in this case Sony - as evil as they may be - may indeed be a victim.

Re:you insensitiv&e clod!

[Anonymous Coward]

You can read an article I wrote a while ago at:

http://www.macworld.com/forums/ubbthreads/showflat .php?Cat=&Board=newsthread&Number=309449&page=23&v iew=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

The reason Nintendo arnt being pursued is that they got a patent to protect their controler.

The reason Sony is being pursued is that by the time they get the patent office to declare the patent invalid it would be too late.
Like last month when RIM had to pay out to NTP even thouh RIM had got the PTO to declare the patents invalid. The judge couldnt consider that the patents were invaid as it was too late.

more prior art?

[fithmo]

I had a vibraiting game controller in the late eighties. It was called a pager.
See, I'd give my secret code to some fly hunny; then it'd rumble right before I was about to score!

They even called me a player.

I think the language is similar enough to claim prior art. :)

(FYI for anyone else thinking about picking up this game: Make sure to use a shield in the final encounter or you might play out your days with a permanent chance-on-pee to self inflict fire damage.)

Oh great

[LeonGeeste]

Another overrated modding for a post of mine that hadn't previously been rated, courtesy of my Slashdot nemeses. Can't you guys think of anything original?

Wait, let me guess: -1 Offtopic, right?

You guys are so predictable it's not even funny.

Re:Oh great

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, let me guess: -1 Offtopic, right?

The one being predictable here is you.

Re:Baa!

[engagebot]

You mean Immersion? Uhh, not only are they the guys who actually came up with it, but their stuff was licensed from Logitech for their devices. So what part of this don't you get. Immersion is not just some patent-whoring-lawyer-fest. They're pretty legit.

Re:Totally offtopic, but...

[kabz]

It's a new Sony protection mechanism. ASCII rootkit!

Sleazbags-Corporate Condoms.

[Anonymous Coward]

You haven't been paying attention to the Enron trial have you? The owners can only be protected up to a point. Being a corporation isn't a blank check to do whatever you want. Contrary to the group think around here.

Re:Sleazbags-Corporate Condoms.

[Lehk228]

enron executives are being prosecuted not the owners (stockholders)

retard

Re:Sleazbags-Corporate Condoms.

[Anonymous Coward]

"enron executives are being prosecuted not the owners (stockholders) "

1-The stockholders are owners of an interest in the company. Not the company itself.

2-The stockholders in the Enron case are the victums, not the guilty party.

3-If the stockholders were engaged in something illegal. Being a member of a corporation wouldn't protect them.

4-The protection you all keep getting confused over is from the actions of one (executives) over the other (stockholders), and visa versa.

Prior Art

[Anonymous Coward]

I wrote about this patent dispute before.
Immersion is making a claim for the principle of linking video to vibrations.
Furthermore making a claim to hold rights to technology that creates different vibrations for different videos eg a crash produces a different vibration to moving over rough ground.

All this technology was seen in Ataris OutRun video machiene 25 years earlier

You can read an article I wrote a while ago at:

http://www.macworld.com/forums/ubbthreads/showflat .php?Cat=&Board=newsthread&Number=309449&page=23&v iew=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1 [macworld.com]

The reason Nintendo arnt being pursued is that they got a patent to protect their controler.
Its got nothing to do with the fact Nintendo has just a sinle vibrating motor at the centre. If this was the case how can immersion be going after video title makers also

The reason Sony is being pursued is that by the time they get the patent office to declare the patent invalid it would be too late.
Like last month when RIM had to pay out to NTP even thouh RIM had got the PTO to declare the patents invalid. The judge couldnt consider that the patents were invaid as it was too late.

Wrong Apple product ;)

[BancBoy]

"I dont think Newton had a video game system"

No, Newton was the PDA. Pippin was the video game system.

I believe sony is licensing the ps2 controllers

[AngelofDeath-02]

Logitech now makes ps2 controllers that are suspiciously like the real thing ^_^ and they are awesome. They actually carry the PlayStation logo, so I think they are getting paid by sony to continue making the controllers.

Re:I believe sony is licensing the ps2 controllers

[Anonymous Coward]

or they are paying sony for use of the name/designs...

Metal Gear Solid

[EdwinBoyd]

You control Snake.
Snake Fights Pyscho Mantis.
Psycho Mantis takes over the controller and makes it vibrate
So you're fighting against the controller.

Re:Sleazbags

[smbarbour]

The real question though is did Sony steal the actual design of Immersion's technology, or did they just say "putting two unbalanced motors into the controller would be cool"

If the concept of having two unbalanced motors on different axes is patentable, does someone already have a patent on three?

Also, if I go to my local electronics supply store, pick up two DC motors, some weights, a battery pack, and a project case and connect it all together, would I be in violation of the patent?

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[c_forq]

Where besides input devices has vibration been used for feedback? The only vibration as feedback I can think of is in engines when you do something wrong (and that isn't a feature, but merely how the engine works).

Prior Art2

[Anonymous Coward]

I wrote about this patent dispute before.
Immersion is making a claim for the principle of linking video to vibrations.
Furthermore making a claim to hold rights to technology that creates different vibrations for different videos eg a crash produces a different vibration to moving over rough ground.

All this technology was seen in Ataris OutRun video machiene 25 years earlier

You can read an article I wrote a while ago at:

http://www.macworld.com/forums/ubbthreads/showflat .php?Cat=&Board=newsthread&Number=309449&page=23&v iew=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

The reason Nintendo arnt being pursued is that they got a patent to protect their controler.
Its got nothing to do with the fact Nintendo has just a sinle vibrating motor at the centre. If this was the case how can immersion be going after video title makers also

The reason Sony is being pursued is that by the time they get the patent office to declare the patent invalid it would be too late.
Like last month when RIM had to pay out to NTP even thouh RIM had got the PTO to declare the patents invalid. The judge couldnt consider that the patents were invaid as it was too late.

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[c_forq]

Sony is just about the only major remaining holdout in the gaming industry.

Just a quick caveat, in the gaming industry only Microsoft licences the patient, as Nintendo independently developed their own rumble technology that is significantly different.

Re:Baa!

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to work for immersion (or HT medical before immersion acquired them) They do some pretty fantastic work in haptics, and the medical simulators are all very nice. But when this suit came out against sony and microsoft, we all thought it was pretty stupid.

Next stop: The PS2 Owners.

[Akoma The Immortal]

Yes you read it correctly, like in software, when the judge will rule that SONY violates this patent (He already did, but it will be appealed), Immersion will go after the owners of PS2 dual shock controllers.

Ho wait.. In the hardware world, it is the producer that are liable for patent infrigments, not the consumer/client/user/owner.

Why is it the case for the sofware patents? If this is not, a major FUD claim of the Dark Side(TM) against OSS just went poof! Or I need to be educated on software patent liabilities.

Regards,

P.S: Sorry for any mistake I made in my post, I am doing my best to spellcheck, grammarcheck and whatnot before click on the shiny button.

Re:Next stop: The PS2 Owners.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, up until Immersion gets a royalty payment or settlement from Sony they could go after owners. Individually. As in one lawsuit per person. Where the minimum costs for each individual suit would be on the order of 5-10 grand and the potential payout would be a percentage of the cost of the controller, say $3. And the owners could probably turn around and sue Sony.

As far as software goes, the same basic rule applies. If you don't have deep pockets you are not a viable target. If you do have deep pockets you already factor lawsuits in as a cost of business.

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[sh00z]

Where besides input devices has vibration been used for feedback?

Also a "tell you when you're wrong" example, but one old-school vibration-feedback device is road-shoulder "hiccups" that tell you when you're drifting out of your lane. I got my driver's license in 1980, and they were around then.

Re:They Still Have Japan Cornered

[twistedsymphony]

Yeah MS is doing pretty poor in Japan (worse then the Xbox 1 if that's even possible) But they're doing great in the states... they might not have a "dominant" market-share over video games in general but they have 100% market-share of the next-gen (even Japan... there's no competition). Also the fact that you STILL can't just go to a store and buy one, and pre-orders entered before launch STILL haven't been filled in some places in the US and Europe should say something about it's popularity. In the few months it's been out in the US it's already sold more then the Xbox 1 did in it's first year.

Say what you will about Japan but Sony will have an uphill battle in the US if they wait till 07 to launch there.

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[Anonymous Coward]

Rooting for companies with bad patents because they're going after someone you don't like is wrong.

Explain how this is a bad patent.

Vibration has been used for feedback for ages, though not in game controllers.

This explanation is not sufficient. Where has vibration been used for feedback? Was it an intentional or incidental feature? Was it invariably caused by a condition or event, or was it arbitrarily triggered by an intentionally designed condition?

Better yet, since we're discussing a patent, was the vibration intentionally created by a mechanism that spins an eccentric weight? Do you know the number of the patent involved in this case? Have you read the claims?

Obviously not. That doesn't make you insigful, that makes you a troll.

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[Anonymous Coward]

Vibration has been used for feedback for ages, though not in game controllers...

My girlfriend even has some of this "prior art" you speak of.

Hrm...

[Red_Chaos1]

So does this men Nintendo is next? And after that, all companies who ever made pagers or cellphones, and perhaps *gasp* even vibrators?!

I'm sorry, the use of motors with off balance weights for varied tactile feedbacks has been around way too long.

This is just another example of how lacking our patent system is.

Re:Hrm...

[jasonditz]

The patent system is screwed up, but lets not overstate it: Sony's implementation is almost a direct copy of the patent's implementation... Nintendo's implementation is totally different, which is why they were never sued.

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[Manmademan]

Where besides input devices has vibration been used for feedback?

anyone remember "Operation?"

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[drinkypoo]

Military systems were using haptic feedback before game systems had more than a couple buttons per controller. Granted, the method is substantially different - they use piezo elements to simulate pressure by varying frequency - but nonetheless, it is a use of vibration. That system actually allows force feedback of a sort, as opposed to simple vibration feedback. It's used to give the sensation of "pushing" virtual buttons.

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[Chris Kamel]

As is rooting for companies with patents in general just because of a broken patent system. People seem to be pre-occupied with prejudices about the patent system that they hardly ever look at the case in question before they decide who should win.

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[MMMDI]

Back in... oh, I'd say '92-'93... there was this restaurant that my parents used to take us kids to every Friday night. It was one of those menu + buffet deals, where my step-dad would usually get a steak or something and us kids (my brother and I) would be happy with the all-you-can-eat pizza and spaghetti.

Now, this story isn't completely off subject. You see, there was an arcade just a stones throw away from this restaurant, and after wolfing down the food, I'd beg mother dearest for a few dollars to waste on the games there. The parents (looking for some time alone, I suppose) readily went along with this plan most of the time, so for about thirty minutes on each Friday, I'd have a belly full of junk food and the world of games at my disposal. Being that I was 11 or 12 at the time, this was as close to heaven on earth as I'd ever get.

Ok, I promise you, this story isn't off subject. In this arcade, there was a few racing games... you know, the ones where you sit down in a hard-plastic chair with a wheel and some foot petals in front of you. When you crashed your car or accelerated to a fast speed, the seat would vibrate as though you were actually in the car. Now, whoever thought up the idea of placing a pay-to-use bathroom in this particular establishment was nothing short of a genius. Having just gorged myself on a good deal of greasy food at the neighboring restaurant, it was inevitable that I would play at least one racing game during my stay at this arcade. I don't think I need to spell it out, but a vibrating seat under your ass + loads of greasy food = guaranteed money to the bathroom stall.

So yes, there have been devices that used vibration for feedback that weren't necessarily input devices (the wheel itself didn't vibrate).

Dreamcast

[Nazmun]

Had an absolutely phenominal list of launch titles and a year on the ps2 (might have even been more) along with a promising amount of systems sales. The graphics on the Dreamcast still look comparable to that of many ps2 games today.

The one year headstart, and the "100%" marketshare on nextgen isn't that big a deal as it may seem.

Re:Dreamcast

[twistedsymphony]

I loved the Dreamcast myself and I whole heartedly agree about the awesome graphics and launch titles.

But the Dreamcast was the sequel to one of the worst selling consoles in history. THATS what killed it. It didn't matter if they gave the things away.

Not to mention it was marketed pretty poorly, in comparison to the Sony Hype Machine(tm).

Those that did consider buying the Dreamcast were duped by Sony into waiting for their superior PS2, what with it's competitive online service and hard drive that would be coming out within the first year to compete with the Dreamcast and the promise of the "Emotion Engine" so powerful it could calculate human emotions. Rumors that derelict countries were buying them up for use as missile controllers because they were mini-super-computers... do you remember all that? THATS why the Dreamcast lost to the PS2..

MS on the other hand had a slow start with the Xbox 1 and by the time the 360 rolled around the Xbox 1 was really giving the PS2 a run for it's money in US, Europe, Australia, etc. Weekly consoles sales were close to 50/50 for the two consoles, despite PS2's larger "install base".

The only way the Dreamcast comparison would work is if the Xbox 1 fell on it's face in the first year, all the 3rd parties left it for dead and MS didn't have anything for about a year leading up to the 360... But that didn't happen so it's not worth comparing.

Brand recognition and the association with that brand sells a console more then anything else, Sony could polish a turd and sell it for $500 a pop at this point and you couldn't keep those things in stock. Sega during the Dreamcast era was walking around with a Scarlet Letter called "SATURN". MS is in neither situation, they're coming off of a lot of building momentum set in place from the Xbox 1. Considering how well the Xbox 1 did launching a year and a half after the PS2 in the states and europe I'd say they're making a sequel to a VERY successful console right now.

Re:Dreamcast

[AvitarX]

So true.

I got a PlayStation when they were first $99.00 (I think right before or after the PS2 launch, but I forget), the Dreamcast was a comparable price, but it was someone else getting it fo me, they asked if I wanted a Seaga Dreamcast, and I said I don't want that POS (thinking is was a Saturn, it had been years since I had heard the name and cound't remember it, also, the most recent Sega system I had even seen was the Genisis).

It took me about a few months to realize my mistake (powerstone at an arcade did it). Next Christmas I got myself a Dreamcast when people were getting Xboxes and PS2s (of course AAA games were $15.00 at the time so it was awsome).

Power Stone is still the most fun fighting game ever (better than Smash Bros.), and Joe Joe's Bizzare Adventure is probably my favorite 2-D fighter. Grandia II my favorite RPG, and Mars Matrix my favorite shmup (though maybe Ikaruga).

The Dreamcast was awsome, it is a real shame how bad it did, since it was a long time before PS2 games were comperable in graphics and fun.

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[Guppy06]

Neither. Hope for a Pyrrhic victory that ultimately harms both sides.

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[Anonymous Coward]

However, vibration as feedback has been around in arcades for a while as well, anyone remember Operation Wolf? Damn I used to love that game, but it had the vibrating/rattling Uzi as the controller, would this count or is the method employed very different than in this case?

Re:This is just ridiculous - not really - really

[inca34]

Immersion is a small company with less interest in actually developing "touch sensitive" force feedback devices, and more interest in making money in a niche market that simply should not exist. Who the hell would buy such things to warrant the existence of an entire company? Oh wait... maybe game consoles and high-end/low-volume electronics customers would want this stuff. So why weren't they working with MS and Sony to begin with? This looks bad regardless of the light shining on it.

Is the moral of the story that patent law simply sucks or is it even broader in that we have some civic duty to try and get a lot of something for a doing a whole lot of nothing?

And Sony just doesn't have the brains to simply...

[Khyber]

Move from a ROTATING mass to a SLIDING mass for feedback. one magnet, alternate currents to change polarity and make the magnet move back and forth, thus creating vibrations in the controller. Oh, shit, I better patent that, QUICK!

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[Randall_Jones]

so you could create a vibrating instrument to induce bowel movements, but then you'd probably get sued by the vibrating buttplug manufacturer's association... those guys are jerks!

Xbox 360 what?

[YesIAmAScript]

I own an Xbox 360, and I have to say "popularity" isn't a word that springs to mind.

Sales have been low (restricted supply), and the games are nearly all really bad, and they're $60!

360 has been a flop so far. Although I like the hardware by and large. Enjoyable experience overall.

patents != copyright

[SanityInAnarchy]

And this, sir, is the main reason Richard Stallman wants you to stop using the term "Intellectual Property". The laws governing copyrights and patents are as different from each other as they are from the laws governing trademarks.

what? rumble patent?

[Mashdar]

How does anyone have a patent on "rumble technology"? How in gods name does that not qualify as past art? I had a light-up, sound emitting, rumbling lazer-gun toy as a kid. I suppose they travelled to the future and stole the technology?

Please. Its a lopsided electric motor. I'm pretty sure Tesla made plenty of those a long time ago.

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[Simon Garlick]

I it's more that the item in question is an input, and your girlfriend provides the "feedback".

Re:This is just ridiculous - not really - really

[Some Bitch]

Immersion is a small company with less interest in actually developing "touch sensitive" force feedback devices, and more interest in making money in a niche market that simply should not exist.

What a load of utter bollocks. Sorry to be so blunt but it's the only way to describe how utterly wrong you are. Immersion do a lot of business in medical simulation tech where realistic force feedback is absolutely critical and as far as I'm aware they are the world leaders in the field.

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[Some Bitch]

no, but i reckon you should have to actually sell a product to the market, not just be a patent whore.

Immersion do sell force feedback products, just not in your price range. They're huge in the medical simulation world.

Re:This is just ridiculous - not really

[KDR_11k]

Both rumbling and Force Feedback are part of Immersion's patent list. They have patents on lots of different implementations and IIRC were the ones who licensed Force Feedback to Microsoft for those Sidewinder joysticks and wheels.

But Immersion's patents don't cover everything, specifically Nintendo's implementation of rumble is not patented by Immersion because Nintendo patented that first.

Re:This is just ridiculous - not really - really

[KDR_11k]

They were working with MS before, Sony and MS just decided to ignore Immersion this time 'round.

NO

[jizmonkey]

We're talking about 1.37% of revenue:

No, we're talking about $82 million. That's a huge number both in absolute terms and as a patent infringement verdict. There are only a handful of verdicts that have been larger.

It's also not clear that the relevant percentage should be total playstation sales rather than controller sales. Under the Fonar and Bose standard, to use the entire market sales as the base for royalties, the infringer must show that the market was caused by the infringing device. There are lots of console controllers of recent vintage that didn't have rumble function -- the wavebird, the original N64 controller, the original PSX controller, the dreamcast controller, etc. Sony wouldn't have lost much sales not including the rumble.

Re:Wow, this one was tough!

[geminidomino]

you'd probably get sued by the vibrating buttplug manufacturer's association...

Hell no. Cross licensing!

How do you think they make it to the pay-stall in time?

Re:This is just ridiculous - not really - really

[inca34]

Sorry if I was taking to the hyperbole, but check this out: http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=IMMR They're not very good at much but losing money. Granted their products may be important, I don't think the niche market is enough to support the industry that they're trying to make it. The numbers from Immersion's black book tend to agree. At least within the scope of their current business model. From an engineering standpoint the work they do is increasingly redundant and trivial to accomplish as the relevant technologies in motors, motor control, materials, LCDs, and digital electronics continue to improve. Hence my, and others', general indignation at the fact that innovation cannot be parallel but must be held to some archaically slow IP system via another archaic system that purportedly serves out Justice in a friendly neighborhood near you. I just don't get it. It's not Just and it's not The Right Way(tm).