The 'Hairy Guys' Vs. Microsoft

Jeremy Allison - Sam writes "The IHT is running the best write-up I've seen on the Microsoft vs EU Anti-Trust case, featuring quotes from tridge (Creator of Samba) and Carlo Piana (the FSFE lawyer). Nicely contrasts the difference between the Microsoft legal Team and the resources the FSFE has to work with. I was the FSFE witness for the initial hearing and the first trial, and this article nicely explains what it's like to be there." From the article: "The settlements left a group of computer programmers and activists, united under the banner of the Free Software Foundation Europe, with a bigger-than-expected role in supporting the EU's goal of loosening Microsoft's grip over the software industry. Only half-joking, one observer at the court this past week called some members FSFE and allies 'the hairy guys' - in contrast to the well- groomed legal teams fielded by Microsoft."

Comments

For your reading convenience

[Anonymous Coward]

Article all on one page
http://iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file=/articles/2 006/04/28/yourmoney/msft.php.

But speaking of hairy, I want an RMS pony!

OMG!!! RMS PONIES!!!

Rather Telling

[fohat]

The last paragraph is rather telling of the reason why Microsoft is in this mess in the first place. I remember when I found out that they were bundling a Firewall with Windows XP. Did they think that going to a more "root" oriented system would cause too many headaches for the end user? I imagine it was more along the lines of "We'll do something about it in the next version" syndrome. Regardless, that was the day I decided to start looking at an alternative operating system.

Good luck Hairy guys...

Re:Rather Telling

[freehunter]

So you decided to look for another OS just because MS decided they would do something about security and put a firewall in, rather than letting the majority of users go without, and making the rest pay for one? You either hate yourself and don't admit it or you have no concept of what good vs bad is.

Re:Rather Telling

[flimflammer]

The difference in severity between the two alone have me wondering how someone could really rate that bad analogy insightful.

Re:Rather Telling

[starfishsystems]

"The commission said in 2004 that it decided not to settle with Microsoft because it wanted to set a precedent," Bellis told the court in his closing remarks. "Already, the commission is seeking to apply its precedent to features for Windows Vista - the new version of the operating system - such as a new feature that will protect Windows users from spyware infections."

This language is of course the same old veiled threat from Microsoft that we've seen used so many times before. If I'm bad, Santa might not bring me a new toy. And it's a really cool toy, really it is. Well, it will be. Well, it might arrive just a little bit late, but it will still be super cool. So I'd better not do anything bad to Microsoft, or else.

Whatever. It's not new language. And it demonstrates that Microsoft still does not have the first clue about security. Hello, everyone turn to page one. You can't get security by adding "features" to a bad design.

All suit and no action

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft likes to present itself as well groomed and well mannered. It's a nice cover for their back alley tactics (which contine to this day, and will for all time). They appear like the Don polishing his favorite apple which he took from the poor lady on the street (without paying for it). "HOW DARE YOU CHARGE ME" would be his reply if she asked for compensation. He might just tip over her cart and knock her to the ground instead. Microsoft has wrung protection out of millions. Now a group from the community is banding together. The internet ties them. Microsoft and it's BSA brute squad can only kick down so many doors before a large group starts kicking down the BSA's (and Microsoft's) doors. You can call that collected community group hairy if you want to, but unlike Microsoft, they are respectable and non-crimminal.

Re:All suit and no action

[ScrewMaster]

unlike Microsoft, they are respectable and non-crimminal.

Yes, but underfunded. I'm rather surprised that IBM isn't kicking a bit more into the kitty on this one. Seems like it would be a tiny investment with a potentially huge payoff.

Podcast of Ponytail and Sandal search

[evilandi]

Ted Haegar's Novell Open Audio podcast for 17 April has a lengthly and amusing phone-round search for FOSS users who are part of the hairy guy set- but the only coders he can find who have, are employed by Microsoft.

Re:Podcast of Ponytail and Sandal search

[HalAtWork]

Duh, FOSS coders can't afford telephones! ;)

I for one welcome...

[AmazingRuss]

...our hirsute, bespectacled overlords.

Re:I for one welcome...

[tverbeek]

...our hirsute, bespectacled overlords.

You mean these guys?

There was a time when Billy Gates was surrounded by hairy guys.

(There was also this one time, at a party, when I was surrounded by hairy guys... a memorable night, indeed! {wicked grin})

Re:I for one welcome...

[tverbeek]

In the 70s everyone was hairy.

I wasn't.

I mean, sure, I still had hair back then, but it was all neatly confined to the top of my head.

Re:Obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

*OR*, have other interests than selling products through 'selling themselves'. Make no mistake, 'the hairy guys' are the people who truly love what they do. More often than not, these are also the people who give birth to new technologies. The suits just take their innovation and sell it as their own. All-time classic: 'who do you trust, me or that guy who doesn't even care about his haircut?'. The right answer is 'Never trust a suit'...

Re:Obvious

[B3ryllium]

Bill Gates doesn't have money for haircuts either - that doesn't stop him from cutting it himself.

The IHT of this weekend...

[ickeicke]

The IHT of this weekend also has a frontpage article about the French "iPod law" and the call for open source as the way forward.

Hairy Guys

[JPribe]

So, are we talking chest hair, back hair...I'm confused!

Sam / tridge - invitation for beer or whatever

[4im]

Hi Sam, if you or tridge are still around Luxembourg, and want to kill some time, some of us LiLux'ers would love to offer you a beer or something. For contact data, just check the LUGs website on www.linux.lu. Anyway, thanks for the fight in court!

I won't waste a mod point on this

[Flying pig]

You don't understand the case. It is the EU's competition department that is bringing the case against Microsoft, not Tridge et al. The contention is that Microsoft has abused its monopoly.

Well, FWIW, I know one of the "smooth suited professionals" that Microsoft employs. And his opinion? That the arguments that Microsoft wanted deployed in court were, in summary "We are so important and so essential to the IT world that you must allow us to do whatever we want." Unfortunately, judges do not take warmly to this kind of argument. Judges like John Cooke have a clue about things like Firefox (and now knows a lot more about how kernels work and that Windows Embedded means that the Microsoft kernel need not be monolithic). They are also used to academic expert witnesses, and European academics can be very unusual indeed. I don't know what the outcome will be, but it is far from clear that the FOSS movement will lose, at least in the Eurozone.

Re:I won't waste a mod point on this

[Ucklak]

Including the media player isn't the problem. It's the choice of removing which is impossible. Same as IE. Of course advanced tech types can remove it but high profile tools for removal don't exist for your average user nor does the manufacturer say that removal is possible which , again, is the problem.

Re:I won't waste a mod point on this

[jt_dot]

This is an aside, but I think you may be confused about what constitutes a monolithic kernel... Sure, the windows kernel doesn't have to be monolithic...no kernel does, it's not some sort of moral imperative. But there are design advantages, for example, you can squeeze every last ounce of performance out of certain processes by putting them inside kernel space. Stability and security, on the other hand, are often cited as advantages to micro-kernels. It sounds like you're equating monolithic kernels with monopolistic business practices, which is misguided. Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, Windows, etc. are all examples of OSes based on monolithic kernels. Wiki's monolithic kernel entry...

Re:I won't waste a mod point on this

[gtwilliams]

MS put a media player into the OS. Big freeking deal.

Yes and now we're stuck with the proprietary codecs for lots of Web content.

Yet this is even MORE invasive than that. ANY bundled application could have to play by the same rules.

No. Only the company with a monopoly is barred from bundling.

Also where was it written that MS had to share its code with you?

No one is asking for code. Only interface specifications.

Re:I won't waste a mod point on this

[Anonymous Coward]

but it is far from clear that the FOSS movement will lose, at least in the Eurozone.

The technical, legal, moral and ethical arguments will come to some point, quite possibly against Microsoft for abusing its monopoly in operating systems unfairly to influence markets in the server arena or the multimedia arena.

But that's not the end of the story.

What will happen is that this black-eye against a US corporation will give the Europeans a valuable poker chip to play against the US when it comes to protecting politically-sensitive farm subsidies.

IOW, we'll give MS a by on this round if you look the other way for another year or two on farm subsidies.

[I'm an American and am aghast at all of this. In the words of the code commentor - fuck me gently with a chainsaw.]

Probably this post will rot in ScoreZeroLand as I post AC instead of as my usual superhero self.

Re:I won't waste a mod point on this

[zsau]

Mate, you've completely missed the point.

Microsoft's not in trouble because they've bundled software. Microsoft's in trouble because they've abused their monopoly in one area (end-user operating systems and office-program file formats) to gain monopolies in other areas (web browsers, media formats, server operating systems etc).

It's not the fact that there's a media player integrated with the OS: As you say, that's been around since Windows 3.something, and Apple's OS X and most GNU/Linux distributions contain them by default. It's the fact that they're abusing their operating system monopoly to encourage a file format monopoly, which will then re-inforce their OS monopoly. (Think about it: Support on GNU/Linux music/movie players for the WMV format is limited. Knowing that, will you be less likely to switch?)

OTOH, all free software uses documented, easily understood and re-implemented file formats. Even if Red Hat got a monopoly on OSes and used that to try for one on music players with Rhythmbox, Microsoft could easily write a better music player that supports Ogg Vorbis files, and users could switch at no cost in terms of file formats.

That's why Tridgell, who develops Samba, software which allows communication with Windows file and printer shares from alternative operating systems, is there. Tridgell didn't have a viable business that was ruined by Microsoft bundles. He's trying to create a better file server that users can switch to at no cost in terms of client/protocol support, and Microsoft is trying to stop him in ways European society (it seems) generally does not approve of.

Re:I won't waste a mod point on this

[dr_light]

Yes and now we're stuck with the proprietary codecs for lots of Web content. You mean like that piece of s*** Quicktime? "Oh, you want to save trailers to your computer? Buy Quicktime pro."

Re:I won't waste a mod point on this

[danaris]

No. Only the company with a monopoly is barred from bundling.

Why? That seems hardly fair?

Huh? Are you just stupid? They have a MONOPOLY. That is what's "not fair."

Was it fair when they used their clout to force OEMs to bundle only their Office suite and media player?

Was it fair when they poured money into Internet Explorer like water, just to kill Netscape, then stopped developing it for years because they had no competition?

That's why we have anti-trust laws: to deal with people who act unfairly and abuse their position in the market to stifle competition.

Dan Aris

Re:I won't waste a mod point on this

[fish_in_the_c]

Here is the analogy I often give non-techies and techies alike. Imagine if GE made all the fuse boxes in the world. One day GE decides that it would be of great benefit to GE made washing machines to have a 'timer' built into to all the power lines in the house. So they put timers into all their fuse boxes. ( remember you can buy a fuse box from no one else ). The way the implement the timer is to use a capacitor to store some current and when it is charged they discharge that capacitor down the line. The effect is that the 110v coming into your house now shows up as 100v at all your outlets with occasional 240v spikes and determinate intervals. Any appliance that is not adapted to deal with these spikes will of coarse be destroyed by the new 'protocol'. so now all of GE competitors need to re-engineer their devices which will easily take them 6 months. Meanwhile GE gets to sell all their products which were already engineered to work with the new fuse boxes for 6 months without competition. Slowly the low margin toaster people go broke and even though GE toaster was as good as some on the market GE is the only one making toasters. That is called abuse of your monopoly and that is exactly analogous to what Microsoft does with it's protocols all of the time. They call changing protocols without telling anyone in such a way as all other players in the market are broken until they reverse engineer what Microsoft did while Microsoft's products still work out of the box 'being innovative'. One simple example out of many is that when Microsoft implanted it's 'Unicode' it did not implement ISO standard Unicode. In fact all languages above some arbitrary number are shifted by 1 byte. The result is that if you create a web page in say Russian Cyrillic with Microsoft front page you cannot read it with anything other then internet explorer. The other browsers had to have people make special fonts and educate the users on how to download and install those fonts to fix the problem. Thus adding complexity of use and cost to non Microsoft products because of Microsoft's undocumented 'innovation'.

Re:I won't waste a mod point on this

[smithmc]

  Microsoft's not in trouble because they've bundled software. Microsoft's in trouble because they've abused their monopoly in one area (end-user operating systems and office-program file formats) to gain monopolies in other areas (web browsers, media formats, server operating systems etc).

Uh, what monopoly? Last I heard, there were alternatives to MS in both operating systems and office software - and, get this - they're free, they don't const nothin'. How can a market that's that wide open be considered a monopoly? Cause a whole bunch of sheep out there are too stupid to know any better? That's their problem, not Microsoft's.

Re:I won't waste a mod point on this

[zsau]

I will point out again that a court has found that Microsoft is a monopoly, and that I don't have a real interest in debating that point. Presumably the definition of "monopoly" is generous enough to include "controls well over 90% of the market".

Also the fact that most of Microsoft's major competition is free is not exactly an argument against considering them a monopoly.

Re:I won't waste a mod point on this

[zsau]

Gosh um, perhaps you could use some paragraphs? Makes it much easier to read, particular on a computer screen. I never know where to start reading Slashdot posts that have huge paragraphs ;)

Regarding the Unicode one-byte shift, I've never heard of that before. What encoding of Unicode does it affect (e.g. all of them, UTF-8, UCS-2, ...)? Is it documented on the web anywhere (by MS or third parties)? I use Unicode frequently and no-one's ever drawn my attention to it (but I never use Windows/IE if I can help it). I have heard that many people who should don't like using Unicode, but I just assumed that was because it increase the filesize/inertia--if what you is true that it could go some way to explaining it.

[Incidentally, I'm not a pansy, I have 240 V coming straight out of all my power points :)]

Re:I won't waste a mod point on this

[fish_in_the_c]

sorry about the paragraphs I messed that up. Need remember to hit that preview button.

The Unicode thing was well documented when it happened. It may have been corrected. I haven't looked at this problem since 98-99 but it is par for the coarse of normal business practices by Microsoft. I know it existed for well over a year, long enough to require everyone else to work around it.

I never delved into it beyond figuring out that in order to read pages written in Russian you had to download standard Russian fonts for all non-front page generated page and special Russian fonts for front page generated pages in order to be able to read Russian or any language that used characters above it and reading several technical descriptions as to why the fonts were necessary on several different web pages. I think by definition this would be a UTF-16 problem because all the languages affected would have been outside the range expressible in UTF-8.

Re:I won't waste a mod point on this

[zsau]

Actually, all Unicode characters are expressable in UTF-8. All octets beneath 128 have the same meaning as ASCII, but once you get above that, you get combinations of octet sequences to express a single character. So the extended Latin sections (including Latin-1) as well as Greek, Cyrillic, Armenian, Hebrew, Arabic, Syriac and Thaana are encoded with two octets. Higher characters are encoded with three or four octets.

UTF-16 just uses bytes of 16 bits. Thirty-two bit characters are encoded using "surrogate pairs", which is essentially a 16-bit version of the 8-bit UTF-8.

Something has to come out of this

[gilesjuk]

Microsoft can't be let off the hook twice, both the US and EU cases have cost US and EU tax payers a lot of money.

The US case was largely dropped due to a change of US leadership and a short sighted attitude that it's best to have a big US IT monopoly than let things go abroad.

The EU case could easily disappear for similar reasons, the EU commissioners aren't democratically elected and have been known to take backhanders in the past.

Re:Something has to come out of this

[Firehed]

Oh, I was wondering why the whole US antitrust case never actually caused anything to happen. I was really too young at the time to get much from what was going on. That explains a lot, and definately provides some interesting insight into our legal structure.

Re:Something has to come out of this

[Keeper]

The US case wasn't dropped. A large portion of the original decision was overturned on appeal.

Re:Something has to come out of this

[killjoe]

No the justice dept took the break up of MS off the table after they won the initial ruling. The clinton justice dept was pushing for it, the bush justice dept took it off the table.

Re:Something has to come out of this

[killjoe]

Have you even read the GPL? It certainly doesn't seem like it. YOu can ship any version you want. You can ship a windows version if you want. All you have to do is to GPL your code or rewrite the stuff you linked in.

Really just read the license. It's pretty clear. If you hate the FSF so much then it's probably best not to use any GPLed code. Don't link against it, don't incorporate it into your own code. There is lots of code available under the BSD and public domain just use that instead.

Re:Something has to come out of this

[Keeper]

The breakup rememdy was discarded during the appeal process. There wasn't anything to take off of the table; the Justice department doesn't dictate the remedy -- the court does.

By the power of the EU....

[Statecraftsman]

Tridge is Free-Man!

This could have been settled a long time ago

[jofi]

No one is twisting your arm to use Microsoft products..

Re:This could have been settled a long time ago

[Anonymous Coward]

... if computer makers were prohibited from bundling Windows with every Intel-based PC.

Having to pay a premium to get a box without Windows is the definition of arm-twisting.

Re:This could have been settled a long time ago

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, actually...

the same EU Commission is pushing for EU software patents. Effectively, if they succeed your argument would become "no one is twisting your arm to use computers", because the currently unenforceable EU software patents microsoft holds would become valid, so the only choice would be computer+microsoft software or computer with no software. And you try living in europe without a working computer and a mobile phone these days, it's a bit similar to the problems someone who can't drive in suburban USA has, only worse.

You could look at this fine another way - it's the EU's fee to microsoft for granting microsoft control of the EU's computers. A fee microsoft is presently understandably unwilling to pay since the EU commission was blocked in its attempt to steamroll the legislation Microsoft wanted in the EU through. I'd say microsoft would just shut up and pay the "fine" on an ongoing basis if it got the EU legislation it wanted.

Re:This could have been settled a long time ago

[madcow_bg]

Because Apple is not a monolopy.

And yes, it is as simple as that.

And NO! MS don't lose market share, because if Dell must ship NONE of their PC-s with Windows, almost noone will buy them. So, actually Dell is loosing money ;). If that is not arm-twisting, I don't hell know what is.

And there *are* other possibilies. I, for one, use Gentoo and Gnome. And even when I use windows I use firefox and open office and Gaim for messaging. It is not that hard, really. Plus, it is cheap and can do what I want to. The ordinary user can use Linux too. Well, he'd have to do it with SuSE. It is also free, you know. And if you want support, you can buy it.

Re:This could have been settled a long time ago

[jofi]

Why don't they put SuSE on their computers then? Put it on a floor model for everyone to look at it. You have to get the word out.. it can't just sit on an FTP server.

Re:This could have been settled a long time ago

[Zonnald]

But why should that be a problem? Linux is so good and everybody want's to use it so why the heck should Dell worry. Sure there might be a short period while the market get's used to the concept, but once everybody realises that Linus is heaps better and easier to use, they will be flocking to get an uber stable Dell machine running their favourite disto.

Re:This could have been settled a long time ago

[madcow_bg]

Not that I know about such a thing, but *if* MS says to Dell: You'll ship ALL your PC-s with Windows XP OEM version, or you will not ship any PC with Windows at all, what would you do?

I think what the GP tried to say is that with tactics like this MS have been stomping all over competition in the IT industry during the last 10 years. Just think of how many times they have "unintentionaly" broken interoperability with Samba... Sorry it is about bashing MS, but ... don't you think they deserve it?

Re:This could have been settled a long time ago

[Peter Greenwood]

> No one is twisting your arm to use Microsoft products..

Then why does it hurt? ...

1. My kids go to school, where they run - guess what. They come home and insist they need MS Word, or Publisher, or Powerpoint, etc.. They don't say "I need to do so and so", because that isn't what they are taught. Oh, and guess who volunteered early on in the term of the present British government to provide IT training for teachers.

2. I do Unix support, and the machine I'm given to do it with runs - guess what. My working life is spent going through Win-to-Unix kludges to get needlessly limited access to the systems.

3. The kids come home, and want to play games. These come in versions that run on various proprietary consoles and ... you guessed it.

Re:This could have been settled a long time ago

[jofi]

Wow, did I call anyone names? I sure didn't! But you sure did.

"In economics, a monopoly (from the Greek monos, one + polein, to sell) is defined as a persistent market situation where there is only one provider of a kind of product or service."

Only one entity, Microsoft, has the guts to produce, sell, and advertise said product. Apple can compete using OS X, but they chose to only use it for their hardware. Linux distros sit on FTP servers and rely on word-of-mouth. Get my drift?

I wonder why I come out as the bad guy. I never said anything about Linux's user-friendliness, or made any comments like "Linux sucks" that get people modded down on Slashdot. What I am saying, stop with words and start by actually doing something about it. I will get to writing the "Is X the year of Desktop Linux" articles where X is 2007 - 2999 to save some people some trouble because that is all that is ever going to done.. more words and insults from people who weren't insulted.

Re:This could have been settled a long time ago

[Jedi Alec]

Only one entity, Microsoft, has the guts to produce, sell, and advertise said product. Apple can compete using OS X, but they chose to only use it for their hardware. Linux distros sit on FTP servers and rely on word-of-mouth. Get my drift?

And that's ok...no, really. However, abusing said monopoly to ram Windows Media Player, MSN Messenger and Internet Explorer down our throats is another matter entirely.

Re:This could have been settled a long time ago

[josiebgoode]

Blame the user, not the software.

Do not call users names.
Love the user, make better software.
Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Re:Obvious

[TubeSteak]

Anyone ever tell you that "You clean up nicely"?

Me too. It's a compliment, but...

Re:Obvious

[IANAAC]

Make no mistake, 'the hairy guys' are the people who truly love what they do.

Loving what you do and being able to dress yourself in a socially acceptable manner are not mutually exclusive.

I don't know why the slashdot crowd seems to think they are.

buying their way out

[towsonu2003]

If MS is able to buy out corporates like Sun, RealNetworks, and Novell, they sure can buy out the judges (at least thru their well-paid lawyers). This seems to be a lost case unless open source developers and supporters decide to unite against MS once for all. And from what I read (like Turdge going to the court almost by force, because he wanted to go to a Samba meeting instead), this is not going to happen. And I don't see Torvalds (Linux) coming together with Trudge (Samba), Shuttleworth (Ubuntu), Pat (Slackware), GNOME foundation, and/or others against MS.

Marks' proposal for international uniting gives important insight to developers' situation here as well... But the human kind proved that this is not going to happen with too many examples.

Re:buying their way out

[Chemicalscum]

It's not "Turdge" nor "Trudge" it is Tridge.

Short for Dr. Andrew "Tridge" Tridgell. Furthermore Dr. Tridgell is not hirsuite. In a business suit he could look quite respectable:

http://samba.org/~tridge/

I also gather that he was a very impressive witness before European Court.

Re:buying their way out

[AmigaBen]

If MS is able to buy out corporates like Sun, RealNetworks, and Novell,

Can you explain what you meant by this statement?

Re:buying their way out

[josiebgoode]

RTFA http://iht.com/articles/2006/04/28/yourmoney/msft. php: "Sun Microsystems settled with Microsoft for $1.6 billion in April 2004, while Novell settled in November 2004 for $536 million. RealNetworks dropped out in October 2005 after settling for $761 million."

Re:buying their way out

[ArsenneLupin]

It's not "Turdge" nor "Trudge" it is Tridge.

But you have to admit that Turdge sounds kinda funny. Especially from Microsoft's point of view...

Furthermore Dr. Tridgell is not hirsuite.

But he does seem to have much hair...

And a cute lapdog ;)

Your still young I take it

[SmallFurryCreature]

Wait till males reach the age of about 25 or so. The only parts not hairy are the palms of my hand. Wich is a suprise considering folklore.

Does it matter? Well, it is all about what you care about. Presentation or substance. Not that looking like a mess means you got subtance or vice versa BUT I might just choose a lawyer who looks like he been up all night reading legal papers rather then just fresh from the spa.

Then again that could just mean the latter guy knows his stuff while the first is still studying.

Oooh how about this one. Can't judge a book by its cover?

Nothing is going away

[Quiberon]

'stray cat' free software is not going away any time soon, or ever. Neither is 'pedigree cat' commercial software. They are two sides of the same coin.

Germany vs. Microsoft

[edxwelch]

If you look at the home page the free software foundation europe you will see nearly all doners of are German.

Re:Germany vs. Microsoft

[syylk]

Germans trying their best to keep US greedy hands at bay? That's a first in history! I'm shocked, I tell you, SHOCKED! :)

Re:Obvious

[Ohreally_factor]

The "I'm too busy to care about personal hygiene and appearance" pose is usually a cover for deep seated feelings of self loathing, usually brought on by an overbearing mother and distant (or absent) father during childhood.

We're not talking about wearing a suit and obsessing over your nostril hairs. Nobody expects a geek to be a metro. But would it kill you to get your haircut every six weeks, or wear a shirt with a collar? The answer is, no, it wouldn't kill you. In fact, it might even feel good, instead of staying up all night coding and drinking mountain dew, or worse, taking drugs.

That's where this dressing like a slob and not getting your haircut leads you to, in case you didn't know. Drug addiction, insanity, and no date on a Friday night.

I'm free of false drugs. When I want to get high, I get my hair cut, shine my shoes, fill up the tank, clean the windshield and hit the open road. I swear to God that there's nothing that beats the feeling of having shiny shoes.

So, get your hair cut. It'll make your mother happy.

And this IS the problem

[ratboy666]

IE cannot be replaced. It must be present. Simply because the help system needs it. In itself, this isn't a problem. Except that MS has achieved a monoply by OS preloads.

Same deal with media players. Not a problem UNLESS a monoply is present, and the purpose of the preload is to obtain another monoply. In this case, its the WMA format.

And, the request made to MS was reasonable: document the links that IE and Media Player have with the rest of the OS.

Now, I believe that MS cannot do this, because the information is simply not available, unless the source is given. In a sense, MS is correct -- these (and other) components are part of the base OS, and can no longer be removed. Such hubris -- MS should have kept documentation to these projects.

Which implies that the either the MS development process is broken, or that MS are really nasty. I tend to believe the first (Mr. Gates is NOT the "devil", but that MS development shoots from the hip).

Still, MS has run afoul of monopoly control laws, in a number of jurisdictions. Why? Not relevant. They must now comply and clean up their act.

Redhat is a monopoly? Apple? Suse? Mandriva? OpenBSD?

Ratboy.

Re:Obvious

[Mac Degger]

Wow...talk about closed minded. Shiny shoes+cut hair=acceptable.

I have shoes which would be ruined if I ever shined them...you know, trendy shoes. And why the hell should I wear a collared shirt? Now I personally do, sometimes, when I feel like it, but you make it sound as if the fact that I wear (expensive?) t shirts (under my suit jacket?) means I'm unwashed scum. And maybe I like my hair done up all luxurious like Fabio (I don't, but if I did you can bet your arse that if I wanted to, I would).

So fuck you and your excluding attitude. Neatness I can get into, but not your mandatory shiny shoes-shorthaired-collared bullshit.

Appart from that...the guys I know at uni and elsewhere doing the most cutting edge shit in computing, they get to dress how the fuck they want. Because they do what no-one else (can?) do, and the money they make gets them enough shallow women and the smarts they have get them the smart women. All you need to do is shower and have decent clothes...that's enough neat for any sane person (even if they wear sandals).

It doesn't matter what the FSF says.

[cduffy]

For purposes of the Linux kernel, it doesn't matter what the FSF says; it matters what the copyright holder says. Linus says binary kernel modules are allowed. Linus is the relevant copyright holder (kind of -- but the other folks who contribute do so knowing of the exception, and thus consent). If you have explicit permission from the copyright holder, that's your license to create binary-only kernel modules. There; done; non-issue.

I don't see any of your other arguments, clearly portrayed, which really hold water for common-case scenarios. Remember that there are very big companies with very well-paid lawyers who build software for Linux; the analysis has been done by people more competant than you or I.

Re:It doesn't matter what the FSF says.

[cduffy]

Yes, the kernel developers don't like binary modules. Yes, they require that such drivers only link to a limited set of symbols. Yes, Intel's(?) proposal to create a standard ABI has been turned down. Nonetheless, so long as those rules are followed, they're explictly allowed.

(None of this is news -- I used to work at an embedded development house with an engineering team composed primarily of kernel developers)

Re:Obvious

[cduffy]

Heh. That's... interesting. You seriously suggest that if I were to cut my hair, this would somehow stop me from working late? Experience suggests otherwise: Back when I had short hair and shaved regularly, I worked longer hours than I do now (13-hour days with the occasional all-nighter rather than 9-hour ones).

I'm a geek. I'm scruffy. I'm also one of the top three members of technical staff at the company where I work, and am well respected for such -- when I tried to resign, the CEO himself scheduled a meeting to talk me out of it. I do in fact feel good about myself. I work out in the early morning 6 days a week (a fairly recent lifestyle change), and will be hiking to Guadalupe Peak with my wife this fall. I don't drink soda, and have barely touched coffee for years. I avoid even pharmaceutical drugs when I can help it.

Instead of feeling good about myself because of how I look, I feel good about myself on account of the respect others give me -- respect I've earned without such empty, shallow measures as changing what I wear, but instead by being consistently competent, helpful, resourceful and personally involved. Now, where in your stereotypes do I fit in?

About the parent post

[Spy der Mann]

I think Parent was talking about Stallman, who wears sandals in his famous "St. Ignutius" picture.

Pedigree

[js_sebastian]

And I don't see Torvalds (Linux) coming together with Trudge (Samba), Shuttleworth (Ubuntu), Pat (Slackware), GNOME foundation, and/or others against MS.

Are you proving your geek pedigree by calling them all by name like they're your best pals??

Re:Pedigree

[towsonu2003]

Are you proving your geek pedigree by calling them all by name like they're your best pals??

Nope. If I wanted to do so, I wouldn't accidentally misspell the Samba devel's name quite a few times... and check ubuntu and slackware sites to learn what the names are... nfortunately, I couldn't find a name for GNOME...

That was an attempt to make readers use their imagination.

It's a matter of perspective...

[dpilot]

From the point of view of the incoming administration, Microsoft has been very successful, and was being punished for their success. They simply stopped what they thought was a wrong.

The logic is at least partially self-consistent. The best and brightest people are those who have succeeded at the American Way - ie, the richest and most powerful. It's not right to punish success, success should be rewarded. View the Bush Administration's domestic actions in this perspective, and it all makes sense. It also makes a kind of sense on the morality front. Jesus Christ wasn't so hot on the wealthy, so the rich and powerful have to take a moral stand, and what easier moral stand is there to take than against the marginalized.

This of course presumes you agree with this perspective. Others of us have no problem with success, as long as you get there fairly. Some of us also believe that having been raised on the parent's silver spoon says nothing at all about your superior skills and wit - it just says you handed a better shot at success. Then again, read the 4 Gospels, and see the group who attracted the greatest contempt from Jesus Christ - the rich and powerful who look down on others' sins.

Re:Sure the're hairy...

[HermanAB]

No, like Socrates, they prefer to go barefoot...

So that's it...

[Darlantan]

I'm free of false drugs. When I want to get high, I get my hair cut, shine my shoes, fill up the tank, clean the windshield and hit the open road.

Yeah, now we see why you REALLY don't do drugs. I could probably grow a pretty nice heroin addiction for what you spend on gas these days. =P

On a serious note, though. That may be what tickles your pink, but I have yet to find a collared shirt that I'd _like_ to wear around my apartment. El Cheap-o Cotton T-Shirt, however, is quite comfy. Unless I'm out to impress someone, I wear what I feel most comfortable in, or what meets my needs best. This generally equates to cargo pants, big boots, and a T-shirt. My boots do get shined, but only when they're scuffed up, and that's more a matter of keeping them in good shape than giving a damn if they look good.

Suits and such are for impressing people. Yes, they may look good, and some people may actually enjoy wearing them. Good for them, they should feel free. Most of us don't agree. If you feel the need to dazzle somebody with your appearance, then a suit might be the way to go. Some people don't feel the need to do that, or think they can get by with intelligence alone instead.

Having said that, there's no excuse for not maintaining a certain level of hygine, barring a water shortage or sudden, unexpected trip around the world with no belongings.

Re:So that's it...

[Ohreally_factor]

Yeah, now we see why you REALLY don't do drugs. I could probably grow a pretty nice heroin addiction for what you spend on gas these days. =P

50 mpg, baybee, on my Honda Davidson. =)

OK, everything else was a joke, but the part about getting your boots shined. If you want to test my idea, experiment for a month. Every Friday (assuming you have weekends off, adjust accordingly if you don't), get your boots shined before going out that night. If you're anything like me, it will give you a tiny, but important, boost. It'll put a stupid grin on your face. If it doesn't do this, then I apologize in advance for putting you thru the horror of having your boots shined.

Re:So that's it...

[IANAAC]

but I have yet to find a collared shirt that I'd _like_ to wear around my apartment.

I think the issue is what to wear to court.

You MUST realize there's a difference.

Hell, even Judge Judy would tell you to cover up your belly button.

Re:So that's it...

[Darlantan]

But if I cover it up, nobody'll ever see the beautiful flowers I've been growing there...

I wasn't talking about court, that falls under the "Trying to impress people" bit. I was merely stating that most people don't seem to find collared shirts to be comfortable enough to wear around without a reason, unlike the poster above.

Re:So that's it...

[Darlantan]

Honestly, I prefer to shine my own boots. Gives me a chance to inspect them more closely than I do most of the time. Kind of a nice little diversion from things, too. I'm doing something worthwhile that needs to be done, but it gives me a while to chill and not have to focus too much. Kinda like gardening, I guess, but with more shine and less dirt.

Re:Obvious

[ShieldW0lf]

That's where this dressing like a slob and not getting your haircut leads you to, in case you didn't know. Drug addiction, insanity, and no date on a Friday night.

That's so totally not true. I used to be a smelly shaggy IT guy with a cruel wife and a ton of self loathing, and my drug use was restricted to a little pot now and then. Now that I'm rid of the ol ball and chain and dressing nicely, my drug use has ballooned like mad. Now I'm doing things like taking esctacy and dancing till 7 in the morning or snorting coke with groups of naked hot blondes at house parties.

Trust me... stick with the shaggy look and stay away from showers. Showers lead to women, and women lead to drugs. Just say no.

incoherent, tangential rambling from an old coot

[Ohreally_factor]

My joke post below aside (I'm both shocked and totally unsurprised that anyone on slashdot bit), I hear that once in a while, too. I think my reaction is similar to yours; I sort of take it like a compliment, but I wonder what the hell the speaker thinks is wrong with me in the first place.

I rarely wore them anyway, but a few years back I swore of neckties altogether. When an occasion requires a tie, I wear a bolo tie, with plain (but shiny!) black western boots. I've recently bought a really nice embroidered western shirt from a store that caters to country western musicians, but before that I just wore a nice black shirt. I've never worn a cowboy hat, though. =) For pants I either wear unfaded black jeans (if it's formal) or unfaded blue jeans (if it's not). I've got a rich uncle that sometimes invites me to lunch or dinner at his country club. On those occasions I'm forced to wear slacks because of the dress code, but I put up with it because I enjoy my uncle's company. Oh, and I'v got a nice black psuedo-suede coat to go on top of everything. (Nothing has fringe on it, btw! =)) This cowboy outfit has served me well, from funerals, weddings, going out to plays, court appearances, and the very rare job interview. (I get 99% of my work from word of mouth and repeat customers.)

The one serious thing about my joke post below is the shoe shining thing. There's something really great about getting your shoes shined. It just does something to improve my mood, either "My shoes are shiny and I can do anything!" or "I might fall flat on my face, but at least my shoes are shined" or something somewhere in between.

One of the cheapest places to get your shoes shined is at Nordstrom. It's $2.50 + tip. I don't generally shop at Nordstrom, but I like the inexpensive shoeshine. I also like traveling in countries where you can get a good inexpensive shoeshine. I'll pack my western boots on a backpacking type trip to Mexico, just so I can get my shoes shined in the town square. Ten pesos well spent.

There's one thing I used to love to do that I don't think you can do anymore in most places, and that's to get an old fashioned, lay back in the chair, straight razor shave. Twenty years ago, it was easy to old barber shops that offered this. Now days, with all the fear surrounding blood bourne diseases, not so much. Again, when I was in Mexico, I asked for a shave at a peluceria, but the guy told me, no, to shave a stranger would be like having sex with everyone I'd ever had sex with, but with none of the fun.

The last time I had a straight razor shave was in the PRC. Only 20 yuan. I haven't been back there in a while, so I don't know if they still offer that. It was in a hotel in Shenzhen.

Oh, and my "normal" everyday drag is wellingtons, thick socks, jeans, and a t-shirt (preferably black).

Re:Obvious

[Ohreally_factor]

I totally empathize, man. So much so, that I put it into my sig.

As Bill Clinton used to say, "I feel your pain."

Re:Obvious

[ShieldW0lf]

Wow, talk about a chip on your shoulder. He likes to wear leather shoes that need shining to look good and get a haircut. Whoopty fuckin do. Forest for the trees there, agro. The point is not to get you to wear leather shoes, it's that if you invest the little bit of time to care a) what you look like and b) what other people think of what you look like, they'll treat you better.

Inter Process Communication

[KidSock]

Microsoft's not in trouble because they've bundled software. Microsoft's in trouble because they've abused their monopoly in one area (end-user operating systems and office-program file formats) to gain monopolies in other areas (web browsers, media formats, server operating systems etc).

Right on. The REAL issue is not bundling. That legal strategy was designed by Real, Netscape and others to yield compensation dollars. The real issue is Inter Process Communication (IPC). A file is a form of IPC. A network message is IPC. If the details of the various forms of IPC are widely available products can interoperate and that is good. I believe that a product that is completely dominant in a market the details regarding it's IPC should be made available so as to reduce the liability associated with using that product. In this particular case that liability is the unfair business practice of forcing other companies out of a market by leveraging undisclosed IPCs. Secondarily there are a number of other very good reasons for having alternative programs that understand the same IPCs but it's not clear that they have legal bearing.

Re:Obvious

[0x0000]

Loving what you do and being able to dress yourself in a socially acceptable manner are not mutually exclusive.

... "socially acceptable" depends heavily on the society concerned, as well.

Re:Obvious

[0x0000]

I suspect that you're trolling, but in doing so (or not) you really come across as one sick mutherfukker, so ...

The "I'm too busy to care about personal hygiene and appearance" pose ...

Here're you're labelling individuals who (arguably) are as successful in pursuing their chosen goals as you - perhaps more so (you're claiming the best high you can get is from a pair of shoes, after all - sounds like you might get along in law enforcement or the military, but amongst real people, that's just kinda freaky) - and you call their chose presentation(s) of themselves a "pose". Right off you're showing your own lack of depth, here...

We're not talking about wearing a suit and obsessing over your nostril hairs.

Actually, we were, but you apparently didn't like the direction the conversation was going?

Nobody expects a geek to be a metro.

That's just an ignorant statement. You obviously either a) don't get out much, or b) have never been a geek. Microsoft corporation is still labelled "geeks" by the mainstream (the non-geeks) and the dumbasses (apparently including you) still expect geeks to be able to conform to some portion of the socialist regimen imposed by yourselves on non-geeks. It is two different societies, and I have not known anyone, ever to be able to move back and forth between the two. If you really think it's possible to exist simultaneously in both, it just means you don't.

There are many who have tried to establish a liason to geek society - including Bill Gates, himself - and they have had varying degrees of success, but in the end they all fail - using the same sorts of arguments you present here.

But would it kill you to get your haircut every six weeks, or wear a shirt with a collar? The answer is, no, it wouldn't kill you.

You insensitive dirtbag - what do you care if the next person cuts their hair or wears a shirt with a collar? Why don't you mind your own business, do your own job, and leave people who actually know what they're doing alone?

Clearly any one stupid or weak enough to have fallen for the training they were give as a child - "cut your hair", "shine your shoes" - is just rotely following orders and cannot possibly be capabale of having a real life.

That's where this dressing like a slob and not getting your haircut leads you to, in case you didn't know. Drug addiction, insanity, and no date on a Friday night.

Sounds to me like you're addicted to your car (and everything that implies) and your shoe polish. Prohably can't get laid without them... Give me drugs and insanity any time - but you forgot the "firearms" part (I think there's a Hunter S Thompson quote in there somewhere, but my drug-fogged, dateless brain can't quite pull it out, right now)

I swear to God that there's nothing that beats the feeling of having shiny shoes.

Really? How about a tattoo? Or maybe getting yourself pierced? Or just plain old sex? In know, I know, your mom told you that if your shoes were shiny you could get sex... whatever - I think barefoot is better.

In short, you need to learn something about Individualism and why it is a Good Thing even if the Society in question leans towards Socialism, in which everyone looks the same and talks shit about how other people look and act - like you're doing.

Can I come too?

[definate]

I'm hairy, does this mean I can join their gang? I'm not much with lawyering, but I can swing a sack of door knobs! Oh, I can program to.

Re:Obvious

[Ohreally_factor]

Thanks for the kind words of support, but you're taking me way too seriously. =)

Right now, I'm contemplating shaving my head and letting my beard grow out to ZZ top length.

Re:Obvious

[ShieldW0lf]

Oh.

I really did snort coke with hot naked blondes this weekend. :D

Re:Obvious

[ShieldW0lf]

Um... don't tell my ex.

Re:Obvious

[coolGuyZak]

Now, where in your stereotypes do I fit in?

Obviously, your low UID accounts for the entirety of your success. ;)

It's not beyond the bounds of possibility ...

[chris_sawtell]

... that European governments, either individually or as a Union, could well pass a law which proscribes contractual bundling of software on any hardware platform. Microsoft, and any others tempted to do so, would be well advised to remember that that is a distinct possibility before they send in their legal heavies with the intent of subverting both corporate and individual freedoms. IOW, Licensing pre-installed software and activating it would then become a separate transaction item at the retail level.

Genuinely Democratic governments who have merely the narrowest of majorities are remarkably malleable when faced by organised civil agitation.

Re:It's not beyond the bounds of possibility ...

[MichaelSmith]

European governments, either individually or as a Union, could well pass a law which proscribes contractual bundling of software on any hardware platform.

Microsoft would just sell an MS PC system and bypass other system builders. Blocking that would require blocking apple.

Re:Obvious

[Ohreally_factor]

Good for you!!

True story: My mom died in 1991, and I was depressed. I inherited some money, so I bought my first PC, a 486, and an eighth of meth. The computer was completely disassembled within 24 hours. It took me the whole rest of the week to put it back together.

I was a total noob, so I had no idea what I was doing. The reason I took it apart in the first place was because I "broke" it. Unbeknownst to me, the 200 MB HD was actually a 100 MB drive doubled under stacker. And the first thing I did when I got the computer home was to start editing the autoexec.bat and config.sys, just as I had seen friends do on their PCs. I must have deleted a line when I was fucking about, because windows wouldn't boot. I don't know why I got it in my head that it was a hardware problem. No, that's not true. I know why. Fucking noob is why.

Anyway, that week was a crash course, and I learned a helluva lot. And I've pretty much been a geek ever since.

I don't party anymore. Eventually the speed kicked my ass and I had to stop everything. I don't really miss it, except once in a while I miss the psychedelics a little.

Re:Obvious

[hutchike]

The "I'm too busy to care about personal hygiene and appearance" pose is usually a cover for deep seated feelings of self loathing, usually brought on by an overbearing mother and distant (or absent) father during childhood

Damn! I wish I'd read your post before I spent $3k on some excellent psychotherapy in Silicon Valley over the past couple of years. Your insight is acute!

Personally I remind myself how much I now love myself (and loathe my mother as she was) when I brush my teeth and shave every last hair from my head.

PS Ironically, my girlfriend calls me "Pelos"

All time haircut classic

[guisar]

I think what you are searching for is the all-time classic- in a two with two barbers, one neatly shaved and groomed, the other with unkempt, poorly cut hair who's shop would you choose to use?

Re:Obvious

[freeweed]

How about a tattoo? Or maybe getting yourself pierced?

you need to learn something about Individualism and why it is a Good Thing

Heh. Conformist rebellion is soooo cute :)

Re:Obvious

[Zigmun_Barsac]

"I'm high, but not on false drugs; but on a clean windshield, powerful gasoline and a shoeshine." Firesign Theater, "Don't Crush That Dwarf, Hand Me the Pliers". Zigmun

Re:Obvious

[Ohreally_factor]

Thanks! I couldn't come up with the exact quote, and attribution would have spoiled the troll. The Lord is a Mighty Hotdog! Let's Eat!

Re:Obvious

[Ohreally_factor]

I suspect that you're trolling, but in doing so (or not) you really come across as one sick mutherfukker, so ...

Thanks! I'm taking that as a compliment.

Hairy guys built the software revolution and the..

[unity100]

...internet. They should have shown more respect for the hairies. We owe the computer/internet revolution to hairy guys all over the world.

Re:Obvious

[0x0000]

Thanks! I'm taking that as a compliment.

Unsurprising. Conforming to the dictates of a sick society would make one, by definition, sick...