Freedb.org Ending

haroldag writes "Freedb, the free music database used by tons of CD ripping software, has been shut down due to a disagreement among its developers. One of its developers used a data dump from the original freedb.org and is providing the service at freedb2.org, though, and will be adding features and posting them at his site as they become available. Unfortunately, a database dump or source code for freedb2.org is yet nowhere to be found."

Comments

Nothing to see?

[electrosoccertux]

"Unfortunately, a database dump or source code for freedb2.org is yet nowhere to be found."
So _that_ is why I got the "Nothing to see here" message.

Re:Nothing to see?

[haroldag]

Actually, there is some code out there: http://asmith.id.au/mod_libpq.html

Re:Nothing to see?

[Anonymous Coward]

When are people going to learn. Open source just does not work. The open source world is heavily skewed in favor of giving programmers most of the control over the software. In contrast, the commercial software world is more skewed towards the managers and owners. You can at least bribe the manager-types to get the software you need, whereas there is no reasoning with programmers' infantile temper tantrums.

Re:Nothing to see?

[phayes]

I wouldn't label less than 100 lines of script and apache config file contents worthy of over two years of development...

If he publishes the real code to his "freedb2" then he'll be worthy of respect. Until then...

Freedb sucks anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

Way too many dupes. I searched for "Post" and this is what I get:

1

misc/2c03fb04

Post Andra rum
2>

rock/7d0ad70b

Björk Post
3>

misc/7d0ad70b

Björk Post
4>

rock/3b04e804

Post Post
5>

rock/9c0beb0c

Bjork Post
6>

misc/800ac80b

Björk Post
7>

newage/800ad70b

Bjork Post
8>

rock/7b0a720b

Björk Post
9>

newage/7b0ad70b

Björk Post
10>

newage/7e0ad70b

Björk Post

So which one am I supposed to choose? Too many dupes. (Your comment has too few characters per line (currently 7.5). Your comment has too few characters per line (currently 8.5). Your comment has too few characters per line (currently 9.4).)

Re:Freedb sucks anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

So which one am I supposed to choose?

The one whose cd hash matches your cd? [insert picture of guy attempting to slit his wrist with an electric shaver, caption: "You're doing it wrong"] Each of those hashes are (supposed to be) a completely different disc, and in the case of all these different hashes, I suspect that they're from people who got a copy "ripped" from their friend, except instead of an actual copy, the guy tooks some mp3s from kazaa and burnt a cd from them. Recipient discovered that freedb didn't have an entry for this bogus disc and made one.

Personally, I've been wishing for a long time for cddb/freedb to just die already so we can re-standardize on a system that doesn't use a collision-prone hash with absolutely no way to deal with collisions (and no, marking it as a blues/ genre because some other CD was already posted in rock/ is not "dealing with it"). Maybe freedb2 can fix this.

Re:Freedb sucks anyway

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

Each of those hashes are (supposed to be) a completely different disc

Not quite. Apparently the hashes are an ad-hoc mechanism created specifically for cddb, and there *are* collisions.

Re:Freedb sucks anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

So which one am I supposed to choose?

This one:

11>

newage/aId10T

Post, Dumb as a

Re:Freedb sucks anyway

[LearnToSpell]

Each of those hashes are (supposed to be) a completely different disc, and in the case of all these different hashes, I suspect that they're from people who got a copy "ripped" from their friend, except instead of an actual copy, the guy tooks some mp3s from kazaa and burnt a cd from them. Recipient discovered that freedb didn't have an entry for this bogus disc and made one.

Sure, sometimes. That's not always the case though. Different pressings of the same album often have different track splits, which will (obviously) give you different hashes.

Personally, I've been wishing for a long time for cddb/freedb to just die already so we can re-standardize on a system that doesn't use a collision-prone hash

How do you propose that be done? The only standard readable info on a CD is track length and splits. If two different albums have the same length/splits, they'll give you basically the same hash. What's the magic bullet? Audio fingerprinting?

with absolutely no way to deal with collisions

Huh? Like the little pop-up box that tells you the albums it matched, so you can pick the right one?

Re:Freedb sucks anyway

[LocalH]

It's times like this that I wonder why more commercial discs don't include CD-Text, and why more players don't support them.

Re:Freedb sucks anyway

[AnyoneEB]

You could always just MD5 the CD. (Replace MD5 with your favorite crypograhic hash function.) Or, even better, MD5 the individual tracks, so it would even recognize tracks on collections. As you are already reading them to rip them, it would not be much more work. The problem is that it would not be useful for just playing CDs because it would only have the song/album metadata after reading the entire track/CD. Also, in the case that the data is not already in the database, the user would not be asked to enter it until after the CD was ripped, which would be annoying. Of course, there is the even better solution of publishers actually using CD Text in the first place so the data is already on the CD.

Re:Freedb sucks anyway

[FinestLittleSpace]

Isn't it because it's a Philips (or Sony? I'm sure it's Philips) 'technology' and so a royalty has to be paid on every CD and CD Player built with CD Text on it, so most people don't see an advantage?

Re:Freedb sucks anyway

[clarkma]

Nice plan, but it won't work because CD-Audio is too error-prone to have a high confidence of getting the same bitstream twice off different copies of the same CD, or indeed off the same CD played in a different player.

Re:Freedb sucks anyway

[ajs318]

The patent's bound to wear off sooner or later, though.

I only ever managed to get my homemade perl freedb client to work once. Tried it with a different disc and it went Tango Uniform. It's a shame, but maybe the replacement -- because there will be a replacement -- will have a better hashing scheme. Preferably still generated from the TOC alone, so as to make it quicker to calculate.

Re:Freedb sucks anyway

[Angostura]

Because the record companies don't want you doing anything with your CD other than playing it in a vanilla, dumb CD-player thank you very much.

Re:Freedb sucks anyway

[SuperQ]

Actualy, you can reliably checksum the audio data on redbook.. you do need to do a little more work.. but this could easily be automated.

Unfortunately, I have not found a linux implementation of this yet.

http://www.accuraterip.com/

Re:Freedb sucks anyway

[Bobsledboy]

Surely Musicbrainz is a viable replacement?

Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

The quality of submissions were total, utter shit. You'd be better off typing in the info yourself.

Re:Good riddance

[bcat24]

True, but all CD info databases have that problem, some more than others. But still, freedb was cool for when you just want to *play* a CD without ripping it. (Yep, people still do that.)

Re:Good riddance

[spoco2]

The quality of submissions were total, utter shit. You'd be better off typing in the info yourself.

Not so, well, not really. If you used it as a starting point, and checked the entries against the CD you were ripping then by and large the entries were really good. (Some freaky choices in categories sometimes)

Where there were issues, it was far easier to quickly edit one or two entries or the artist name etc. rather than type the whole thing in.

It is/was a great service.

Re:Good riddance

[Loconut1389]

I just wish everyone would use CD-TEXT and rid us of the necessity for cd databases. I continually wish iTunes would burn CD-TEXT as well.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't. CD-TEXT does not support double byte character. IOW, no UTF-*.

Re:Good riddance

[Loconut1389]

still could use it for us in the US.. or come out with CD-TEXT2. The idea remains.

Re:Good riddance

[qbwiz]

I don't know much about the format itself, but if they let you store 8 bits/character, then you could just put UTF-8 data in, and it should work fine. The unofficial CD Text FAQ does say that at least the lead in area does support storing double-byte characters (for Kanji), so it seems like that still should work).

Re:Good riddance

[shish]

Some freaky choices in categories sometimes

That'd be because the CDDB standards are totally braindead. Gogo musicbrainz, which sucks slightly less /o/ (although I've seen very few apps which support it D:)

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

(Yep, people still do that.)

Sorry to have to break it to you, sonny, but it's really just you.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

Back before Gracenote was Gracenote, I entered 650 CD's in. I kept track of how many pre-existing entries were perfect, how many had minor typos, and how many were so screwed up it required a lot of work. And there were a few CD's that weren't in the database.

From memory, of those discs that were in the database, it was about 1/4 perfect, and about 3/8 each typo'd or 'required substantial fixing'.

So no, it isn't total, utter shit. It was frustrating, however, to see all those sloppy people and those sloppy programs (Windows, invariably). Even more frustrating was when the collaborative effort was stolen for personal gain by the fucks who turned it into Gracenote. I no longer submit corrections (I use it only because my programs won't let me use anything else).

I would LOVE a free (completely open soure, completely open data) version, especially if there were a mechanism to avoid the Wikipedia effect--trolls, children, and incompetents having the right to screw it up. Perhaps some sort of multiple version download with voting on each and selectable thresholds. For that I'd find alternate programs or get my current ones to work with something new.

Damn.

[bcat24]

That sucks. I hope that freedb2 will be compatable with the old freedb protocol. Pretty much every open source tagger/ripper/whatever I know of uses freedb.

Then again, maybe it's time for MusicBrainz to take over. :)

Re:Damn.

[Otter]

Freedb is a knockoff of cddb, so I'd imagine that the grandknockoff is going to continue with the same protocol.

Re:Damn.

[QuietLagoon]

This is one of the most significant flaws of using Open Source Software: egos .

Damn is right.

Re:Damn.

[haroldag]

My understanding is that yes, the protocol will remain the same, but features will be added. Old stuff remains there, while new ones help new application developers make better/easier/faster queries.

Re:Damn.

[RackinFrackin]

I suspect that you are right, but I wouldn't use the word "knockoff". Freedb was more like a replacement of cddb, for when cddb was sold out from under the community that built it.

Re:Damn.

[fiendo]

How is this not also a flaw of collaborative closed source software? Are they not also susceptible to egos??

At least when egos get in the way of OSS, the community can muddle along with the source code. When the same thing happens to closed source software, what are we left with?

Re:Damn.

[LinuxGeek]

This is one of the most significant flaws of using Open Source Software: egos .

Damn is right.

Yeah, we all know that egotism would never play a part in any closed source project or company.

Re:Damn.

[fireman sam]

Damn, I entered the code in your sig and my TV went blank.

Re:Damn.

[JohnnyBigodes]

It does, but then money comes along and closes the argument right there, right now.

Re:Damn.

[Waffle Iron]

It does, but then money comes along and closes the argument right there, right now.

Not really. Countless companies have been destroyed as a consequence of the egos of the people running them, regardless of how much money they stood to gain or lose.

Re:Damn.

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder who bought it?

Re:Damn.

[fiendo]

Or not. Humans are not cash registers. There is a condition known as spite, which is ego-driven and will frequently cause people do things not economically in their interest. Look to recent U.S. elections for widespread examples.

Re:Damn.

[killjoe]

Really? So you are saying no corporation has ever lost money pursuing some product or service because the CEO was stroking his ego?

I know for a fact 75% of all decisions in the companies I worlked in were made from a position of ego. It mattered very much who came up with the idea, way more then what the idea was.

Re:Damn.

[BrynM]

Really? So you are saying no corporation has ever lost money pursuing some product or service because the CEO was stroking his ego?

I give you a prime example to support how much an ego can change the path of a company for the worse: Darl McBride. Turned a company that once had many products to a shitty litigation house with few products which have dwindling customer numbers (SCO Unix has lingered at version 7.1.4 for a couple of years now). How much empty ego do you need to say something like "And C++ programming languages, we own those, have licensed them out multiple times, obviously. We have a lot of royalties coming to us from C++." (source)?

Re:Damn.

[Anonymous Coward]

"I know for a fact 75% of all decisions in the companies I worlked in were made from a position of ego."

The perfect example: corporate rebranding initiatives. The two or three times I've seen this, it just ends up being some huge confusing mess, with sales people trying to re-educate customers, internal documentation never being consistent again, loss of mindshare, everyone (thousands of people) needing new business cards and stationary, etc., all because some asshole VP thought they were clever enough to pull it off.

Re:Damn.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, we all know that egotism would never play a part in any closed source project or company.

I'm gonna throw a f--k--n chair at you for saying that.

Steve Balmer.

Re:Damn.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but in the closed source world there is a safety valve - it's called a boss. When egos get in the way of the boss, the ego is shown the door and the project continues.

Offhand, I can't think of any significant closed-source software project that was cancelled because the team fell apart.

Re:Damn.

[multipartmixed]

You should've still been able to see the cyan lettering and the cursor... unless, of course, you had previously entered "POKE 641,0"

(if my two-decade-old memory is accurate)

Re:Damn.

[Fnkmaster]

No, that's an example of terrible board oversight. The whole point of a Board of Directors is that they have a fiduciary duty to represent shareholder and company interests and are supposed to be composed of a mix of folks representing different constituencies.

They are supposed to make sure a CEO's ego doesn't take precedence over the interests of shareholders, employees and other persons with an interest in the company's success. When the Board fails in this role, as at SCO, the consequences can be dire.

I seem to recall that the SCO Board was padded with Ralph Yarro and a Mormon cabal of Ray Noorda (founder of Canopy Group, SCO's largest shareholder) buddies. Yarro put McBride in the CEO's chair and his yes-men bought into their immensely stupid plan. The end result was millions squandered, an old UNIX brand absolutely destroyed forever, and worst of all, several suicides, including Ray Noorda's daughter. She had apparently engineered Yarro's ouster, which was followed by the mysterious settlement transferring all of Canopy's SCO shares to Yarro immediately before her suicide - I don't know if all of these events were ever adequately explained.

Truly one of the most sordid tech industry stories in years.

Re:Damn.

[Gobiner]

Yeah, we all know that egotism would never play a part in any closed source project or company. Why is it every time someone points to a flaw in any OSS, someone immediately jumps in to say how no matter what the flaw is, OSS is still better than closed-source software? The point is OSS isn't flawless. "Hey OSS community! You've got this problem! Why don't you fix it?" is how I always interpret them, but the modded-up responses never seem to reflect my interpretation; it's always "Oh yeah? Well Microsoft does the same thing, but worse, and they also do this other horrible thing!"

Re:Damn.

[MilenCent]

Or pressed CTRL-0.

(641 sounds right to me.)

Re:Damn.

[MilenCent]

Damn. I mean, wow. This whole SCO business is starting to seem like a lot worse than just ordinary evil....

Re:Damn.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually... I ahven't seen anyone yet identify this as a very weak point in open source (or free) projects. Which is continuity of support... So many times I've heard people claim that was not an issue because the support you could get from internet or "the community" was so muich better than the support that was paid for....

Here is an example of things going sour, luckily losing this service is no big deal, nothing critical will break...

Re:Damn.

[mgv]

You should've still been able to see the cyan lettering and the cursor... unless, of course, you had previously entered "POKE 641,0"

(if my two-decade-old memory is accurate)

You are doing well. I think your memory is accurate, but I'm not sure that I want to admit this...

I would think that alot of people reading this site have no idea what that .sig referred to, but to be honest I'd rather not admit that I do remember some of this also.

To even admit that you worked on a computer where you know where things are located by an absolute memory address simultaneously gives you geek cred and acknowledges that you might be too old to really care whether or not others think you are a geek anyway.

And yes, I loved my C= 64 too....

Michael

Re:Damn.

[Anonymous Coward]

Note: Great comment, but KillJoe is a pretty transparent and known slashdot troll. If you follow his/her posting history, they drop into most discussions like this and post very similar, mildly inflammatory, borderline "fanatic"-style posts. There are a few of us that, totally randomly, noticed this together.

It's subtle and generates a lot of bloviated responses usually that almost always derail the main conversation.

Re:Damn.

[topham]

bah, POKE 36879,8

Re:Damn.

[srw]

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! I actually never owned a C=64. I loved my VIC-20 well beyond it's years. (s/n 2400)

SYS 64802

Re:Damn.

[RackinFrackin]

I had a VIC-20 too. For you, I should change my sig to
POKE 36878,0 POKE 36879,0

Maybe I should just change it to "Shoot me for knowing this."

Re:Damn.

[EugeneDog]

No, that's an example of terrible board oversight. The whole point of a Board of Directors is that they have a fiduciary duty to represent shareholder and company interests and are supposed to be composed of a mix of folks representing different constituencies.

No, you can't just take McB's personal responsibility in this away and blame the BoD. McB convinced the BoD and they accepted it. Isn't that why CEOs have golden parachutes? They can do whatever they want, right or wrong, and if fired, walk away with multiple-millions for their high-priced skills that no one else could possibly do. You see this cause and effect almost daily.

U.S. Business 101--unfortunately.

-- -glenn-

Re:Damn.

[LinuxGeek]

I replied to the original post because the wording they chose made it seem like only OSS projects were susceptible to egos and the related problems. My actual experience after twenty years spent mostly in the computer industry and related periphery has shown a much greater ego based reaction when circumstances really required careful and thoughtful response and action. In contrast, my interaction with and observation of OSS projects and people has been much more positive.

It's a shame...

[Anonymous Coward]

...that folks just can't seem to get along.

So....

[XFilesFMDS1013]

So for programs that use Freedb, e.g. I use dBpowerAMP, does this just mean that they won't be able to grab track listings anymore?

Re:So....

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, if the database is gone...

Re:So....

[bcat24]

The database is still there and lookups still work. For now at least.

Aloha, FreeBSD

[Anonymous Coward]

Sigh, FreeBSD, we hardly knew ye.

good database, but could have been so much more.

[CaptainCheese]

I'm sorry the staff fell out, costing us access to a useful resource. freedb was a useful tool but it was always in need of improvement.

It really should have had facilities for submitting an md5 hash of the CD so end-users could avoid collisions, perhaps an easy way to edit or rate database entries, so that submissions where the track titles were wrong could be corrected by the community, etc...

Hopefully whatever replaces it will be better and more robust..

So what does this mean right now?

[spoco2]

I have no CDs on hand here at work to see what happens when I try a db lookup, but does it mean that there is no info anymore on freedb on the lookup? Or is it just that any new entries have no-where to go?

What about the mirrors?

Re:So what does this mean right now?

[EvilIdler]

I'm getting CDDB info from freedb.freedb.org right now. They're CDs in my
"to rip" pile, so I shouldn't have that part of the DB stored locally yet.

Hulag

[Anonymous Coward]

alag alaagagagaga

lag alglagl alglaglag lalglagagl
aglagla jsglalg jalgjalgl agalglalglag
a
ga
g
agalgl aglagl aglalgalg laglaglalgagl

That is all.

"/." Schizm.

[Anonymous Coward]

""Freedb, the free music database used by tons of CD ripping software, has been shut down due to a disagreement among its developers."

And in other news. Slashdot has been shut down due to a disagreement between Taco and CowboyNeal. The former likes the new layout, while the latter hates it. Apparently one of the readers has mirrored a copy of the "/. database to slashdot2, which will be undergoing a year long "burning server" effect.

no honor amongst theives

[Sonicboom]

Oh well - I'm probably going to get flamed for this....

but there's no honor among theives.

Just stop being a bunch of cheap a-holes and BUY music that you like.

Re:no honor amongst theives

[rehabdoll]

Obviously you have no idea what freedb does nor it's purpose.
Without the CD, the service is/was completely useless.

Re:no honor amongst theives

[Anonymous Coward]

I already did. This is about tagging the CDs that I already own.

Re:no honor amongst theives

[MichaelSmith]

Just stop being a bunch of cheap a-holes and BUY music that you like.

I rip my own CDs. Mostly because I like the convenience of listening to them on my laptop. Even here in Australia that is now legal, though it has always been tolerated.

Freedb just gives me track, artist and album names.

Re:no honor amongst theives

[Peyna]

RTFASummary even?

FreeDB provides CDDB info. In other words, a media player or cd ripper can contact the website with a hash of information specific to that CD or song and then return the name, artist, etc.

What does that have to do with being a cheap a-hole?

Re:no honor amongst theives

[f0dder]

You're gonna get flamed cuz you're a farking tard.
It's a CDDB system for looking up metadata on
commercial audio CD it has little to do w/piracy?

Re:no honor amongst theives

[Anonymous Coward]

i dont think you know what youre talking about.

Re:no honor amongst theives

[Anonymous Coward]

You should maybe have an idea of what the website actually did before spouting off some nonsense about stolen music.

fuckwit.

Re:no honor amongst theives

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously you didn't FTFM, or you're just a dumbass but to use freedb you have to have a physical CD, and chances are that was bought.

Re:no honor amongst theives

[swimin]

freedb had absolutly nothing to do with filesharing. If you had a cd, and wanted to rip it to mp3, ogg, flac, etc, you would want that file to be properly tagged. Everyone wants information like title, artist, name of album, order of songs on album, and year released, in every song they have stored digitally. Freedb only stored this information, to be used as you were ripping the cd, to automaticlly fill in all applicable information.

Re:no honor amongst theives

[Grant_Watson]

By what weird kind of logic does ripping a CD I own to my computer so that I can put the songs in a playlist, for example, have to do with "theft?" I have bought the music, and freedb was very convenient for me.

Re:no honor amongst theives

[Kjella]

Just stop being a bunch of cheap a-holes and BUY music that you like.

Umm if I was downloading MP3s from P2P networks, why would I need a freedb tagger? Find a source with EAC verified, high bitrate, properly tagged music and forget using this, chances are if it doesn't got the tags it'll suck anyway. CDDB, FreeDB and the like are fixes for an outdated format (CD Audio) from a time when noone needed those tags. Unless you think all the people ripping their own CDs to their iPod / PCs / HTPCs / media centers are thieves. This is too braindead to even be good flamebait.

Re:no honor amongst theives

[fuzzybunny]

Yes, you are going to get flamed for this, because it's an idiotic and irrelevant statement.

Freedb.org was invaluable to me when I was ripping the 700-odd CDs THAT I OWN.

Muppet. Accurate track listing database != music piracy. Get over it.

Re:no honor amongst theives

[Anonymous Coward]

The only pirate here is the butt-smuggling parent poster with zero understanding of technology.

Re:no honor amongst theives

[Anonymous Coward]

Without the CD, the service is/was completely useless.

WTF? I guess you don't use foobar2000, and you ain't none too smart either else you could have figured it out yourself...

Re:no honor amongst theives

[Anonymous Coward]

It's cute when grrrls get it soooo wrong. You don't know what a cddb is, do you?

Re:no honor amongst theives

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, if you had bought the CD it would come with metadata, so that when you ripped it it would be labeled correctly. Wait...

Re:no honor amongst theives

[TubeSteak]

I thought the CD-Audio standard (redbook) included the ability to add meta-information alongside the tracks, including lyrics.

Just no one uses it commercially.

Re:no honor amongst theives

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you some RIAA member who thinks we should rebuy all of our music from iTunes or something like that?

Re:no honor amongst theives

[rehabdoll]

I dont use Windows.

Re:no honor amongst theives

[0racle]

Do you mean CD Text?

Re:no honor amongst theives

[Anonymous Coward]

what, foobar2000 can magically recreate the cd key from a handful of truncated mp3s you downloaded off of kazaa? I know foobar2000 is good, but not that good.

Re:no honor amongst theives

[Temsi]

Oh well - I'm probably going to get flamed for this....

but there's no honor among theives.

Just stop being a bunch of cheap a-holes and BUY music that you like.

Wow...
It's posts like these that make me wish Slashdot had a moderation option for "-1, Stupid".

Freedb, like its proprietary and commercial counterpart, cddb, is a perfectly valid and legal service which recognizes the CD in your drive and downloads information about the artist, the album, the songs, cover art and sometimes even lyrics for display within your CD player software.

It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with theft or being cheap.

Re:no honor amongst theives

[Bing Tsher E]

I use it to rip CDs from the library. I'm sure a bunch of other people do, too.

Re:no honor amongst theives

[jlarocco]

I use it to rip CDs from the library. I'm sure a bunch of other people do, too.

And I've heard criminals can use pencils to stab people. What does your law breaking have to do with freedb?

Re:no honor amongst theives

[pingveno]

Also note that mp3, ogg, flac, and most other formats can have title, artist, etc. stored directly in the file. Music files downloaded through (illegal) file sharing would generally already be tagged, whereas freshly ripped music files need to be tagged (manually or automatically). Freedb is, obviously, more useful for ripping purchased CD's.

Re:no honor amongst theives

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think the manual is big enough to fuck when you have a schlong the size of mine. Who needs porno when every chick you bang gets stretched out like Jenna Lameson?

Re:no honor amongst theives

[Ph33r th3 g(O)at]

I'm confused. By thieves, you mean Gracenote, right? The ones who took the database contributed with the understanding that it would be open and free, then monetized it? The ones CDDB replaced?

Re:no honor amongst theives

[Bing Tsher E]

You likely have a few rips of material that you didn't use your middle class disposible income to purchase, too.

I was just, kinda, making sure the stench of hypocrisy wasn't getting too rank around here.

Here's your blunt crayon, dude.

Re:no honor amongst theives

[irc.goatse.cx troll]

No, but it could(emphasis on could, it hasn't been updated for foobar 0.9, and 0.8 is showing its age) turn a cd of badly tagged mp3s from a bad torrent site into proper naming, no cd required.

Admittedly thats not much or anything for the grandparent to bitch about, but I'm sure someone could spin an IP lawsuit off of it.

I recently upgraded to 0.9 and its one of the plugins I miss the most, it made fixing tags as easy as clicking ~4 things and being done with it.

Re:no honor amongst theives

[Yonzie]

The song titles are copyrighted as well as the music.
Therefore, transmitting the song titles via the internet (ie. through FreeBD) is a copyright violation.

So there!

Re:no honor amongst theives

[Anonymous Coward]

> The song titles are copyrighted as well as the music.
> Therefore, transmitting the song titles via the internet (ie. through FreeBD) is a copyright violation.

> So there!

You can't copyright song titles.

So there there! (non-obiligatory "dumbass" omitted)

Re:no honor amongst theives

[Anonymous Coward]

It can be used just fine with mp3s. There are many tagging apps that support looking up info for mp3/ogg/etc. files from freedb. Off the top of my head, Tag&Rename does it, as do the various freedb plugins for Foobar2000. So while I agree that the grandparent was fairly offbase, saying freedb is useless without a CD is incorrect.

have you got ...

[ElephanTS]

"Another One Bites The Dust" ?

freedb2.org compatibility

[Horar]

I am the author of freedb2.org. It currently supports a subset of the old freedb protocol, enough to rip your CD's. Just point your software at http://freedb2.org/~cddb/cddb.cgi. There are also some new features which I will be documenting shortly. For some source code and a development history, please see http://asmith.id.au/freedb.html and also http://asmith.id.au/mod_libpq.html.

Re:freedb2.org compatibility

[bcat24]

Thanks a lot for that! Also, freedb is still accepting lookup requests, at least for now. I guess things aren't that bad. It's just weird to see a project that I thought was stable end so suddenly.

Re:freedb2.org compatibility

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, your page says I cannot use it unless I enable javascript. Since I cannot forsee any reason that this should be necessary, I decline to do so. Moving on.

Re:freedb2.org compatibility

[drdanny_orig]

So how come my client says "invalid response format" when I use freedb2.org, but still works fine with freedb.org?

Re:freedb2.org compatibility

[William Marcy Tweed]

Well, I've got the freedb from last year in MySQL format if you want it. It's available at http://www.indycomics.org/FreeDB (please be kind to my T1) Granted it is from November (20051104) from last year. I will be releasing the current update in MySQL format soon. All of the source code used to generate the MySQL version is available at the same place. Hope someone finds it useful.

Re:freedb2.org compatibility

[arth1]

There are also some new features which I will be documenting shortly.

Document, as in release the code, as in free, as in freedb?
Ah. Thought not. Please take your advertising elsewhere, then.

--
*Art

Re:freedb2.org compatibility

[Anonymous Coward]

oh blah blah. get a life. maybe javascript does have some uses for those who want to view webpages in a browser other than lynx.

Re:freedb2.org compatibility

[Horar]

Would you mind emailing the details to me at the address on the site please? That is undoubtedly a bug which needs to be fixed.

Re:freedb2.org compatibility

[NihilEst]

It works very well. Thank you!!

Re:freedb2.org compatibility

[Curien]

Yeah, because no one ever scrapes web-based db front-ends using scripts. I know I, for one, always used freedb through a full-featured web browser rather than a simple text parser embedded in another app.

Re:freedb2.org compatibility

[valshaq]

You can still download the tar.gzipped database from 2006-07-01 from the mirrors.

Re:freedb2.org compatibility

[Anonumous Coward]

> (please be kind to my T1)

Hah! He puts a link on /. and says "be kind" in the same breath.

If you want kindness, use this instead: http://www.indycomics.org.nyud.net:8080/FreeDB

Re:freedb2.org compatibility

[llefler]

You can also pull the July 1 2006 version directly from freedb. Along with the source for the current release of the server, a link to sourceforge for the unstable code, and some sample clients in various languages. I'm pulling a copy from one of the mirrors right now, and I'm sure others are doing the same.

Re:freedb2.org compatibility

[smallpaul]

For almost two years now Ari and I have supported a developer from Australia, who was working on the next generation of the freedb server, which would have overcome most of our current technological problems and offered text searching. This was the biggest chance for freedb in years. Unfortunately there have been rising tensions in our team about the question, how long we should support a development project, which has not yet been made open source by the developer and which is not yet running on freedb servers.

Is it true that you accepted money (which is how I interpret "support") to do open source development and then did not release the code? I'd like to hear your side of the story.

Re:freedb2.org compatibility

[Anonymous Coward]

And your browser can't read text without it?

Re:freedb2.org compatibility

[Aladrin]

I see nothing in his comment OR the website that says he paid the developer money or that the developer ever said it would be open source code.

I do see references to having invested his 'spare time' to the project.

I suppose you could argue that time is money, but that would make FOSS into NFOSS and really screw up the whole shebang.

I would love to see the source code released, but unless he really was paid to develop the new system, and either did not deliver a binary or promised code, I doubt you'll get anything out of him, in or out of court.

The lesson here? When making a 'free' system for all to use, you'd best go Open Source all the way. It'll bite you if you don't.

Re:freedb2.org compatibility

[Bob9113]

Is it true that you accepted money (which is how I interpret "support") to do open source development and then did not release the code? I'd like to hear your side of the story.

Hmmm, no response. Now I understand the term "deafening silence."

Re:freedb2.org compatibility

[smallpaul]

Please read this page: http://www.freedb.org/index.php

Re:freedb2.org compatibility

[Horar]

Accepted money? Hell no. I've spent 6 months full-time out of the last 19 months, and most of what little money I had, to develop freedb2.org. The fact is I've had very little useful support from anyone and one hell of a lot of obstruction.

The so-called freedb team has always been incompetent and dysfunctional and I have made it my mission to fix that. Kaiser and Hevers have behaved like a pair of spoiled brats from beginning to end and now you see the result of that splashed all over the internet.

Whatever freedb2 ends up becoming I can guarantee you that it will be even more free than freedb.org. Please see http://freedb2.org/news.html for the specifics on that.

Re:freedb2.org compatibility

[smallpaul]

So you categorically deny that you accepted any money from the freedb team. If that's true, then your work is yours and good luck in whatever you choose to do with it. I still find it odd that you won't just release a tarball in the spirit of openness but that's your business. If nobody paid you to develop it then it is your code to do with as you wish. I hope the moderators mod you up so that your side of the story can be more visible.

Sad

[theaddkid.com]

I hate to see things like this its sad when projects fail just because people can't seem to work together.

dude...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Freedb, the free music database used by tons of CD ripping software, has been shut down due to a disagreement among its developers." ...What a db.

Ahhh, those were the times

[m94mni]

I just now remembered what I did once, quite a while ago:

I recorded some of my (difficult-to-find) LPs to .wav, burned them to CD using gcdmaster, and ripped them to OGG, only to find that the ripping program actually guessed *correctly* the album and the titles of all the included songs.

Note that even though I marked the beginning and end of each song manually, it still found the right titles. freedb really rocks!

Re:Ahhh, those were the times

[Anonymous Coward]

I did this once too with an LP. My guess is that the number of tracks on the album and either the total time or times of the induvidual tracks are used to find the info for the album.

Re:Ahhh, those were the times

[rampant mac]

"freedb really rocks!"

Not anymore.

Re:Ahhh, those were the times

[andersa]

Are you sure you were not really using musicbrainz? I don't think freedb is able to do this.

Re:Ahhh, those were the times

[m94mni]

I don't think grip supports musicbrainz... only freedb.

Re:Ahhh, those were the times

[andersa]

Hmm, interesting. I think you are correct.

As I understand it, for what you did to work, the ripper has to generate a fingerprint of the song which can be matched against the database. I don't know the exact details of how it works, but in general terms the fingerprint is not an exact hash like for instance SHA1. Instead it is something that allows for approximate matching, so that if a songs fingerprint matches another fingerprint to a certain degree, then there is some high percentage chance that it is the same song.

Originally freedb did not have fingerprint matching, but perhaps they have made some extensions. Musicbrainz on the other hand has had fingerprint matching for a while. (From the start?)

Re:Ahhh, those were the times

[aj50]

I don't think fingerprinting is necessarily required.

According to the Freedb.org FAQ the discid kinda sucks and is dependant on the total length in seconds and the number of tracks on the disc. If you're taking the tracks from an LP then I guess you were really lucky and got the total album length correct to within a second after you burnt the tracks to cd.

Re:Ahhh, those were the times

[colonwq]

While the diskid is dependant on track length and number, the db can also return approximate matches. I have used an wrote CD players and rippers that would allow you to choose from the close matches for your exact record. I have no idea how the close matches are found but they are useful. If there is only one close match, that would could have been assumed to be correct.

:wq

Re:Ahhh, those were the times

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think grip supports ripping from LPs either, so...

Re:Ahhh, those were the times

[m94mni]

?? I recorded using snd, burned to CD-R using gcdmaster, and ripped that to OGG using grip. Only the last step introduces file metadata.

Get what you paid for?

[Kadin2048]

On one hand, I guess I can't criticize them too harshly, because it's not as though many of us (myself included) who are using the service were paying the developers any for their time, on the other hand, it seems a little unfortunate that the one developer decided to just abruptly pull the plug on the service when it was in use by so many people, without trying to see if there were others in the community of users willing to take over the project, if he no longer wanted to manage it.

It seems like there were three people on the project, and two of them wanted to take it non-free, one didn't; although I'm glad the remaining developer didn't go along with the other guys if they really wanted to make it non-free, I can't really understand why he would choose to just kill it outright rather than find people who were willing to maintain it, if nothing else.

I'm not sure whether this shows a shortcoming of the collaborative development model or not. It seems like it might be -- although I suppose projects managed by a "benevolent dictator" are also prone to shutting down if the person moves on / dies / whatever; however it seems like the a not insignificant number of projects that are run by teams without a clear leader close due to 'personality conflicts' over time.

On the other hand -- what is it with CD meta-databases and going non-free? Is it just that they seem like tempting revenue sources or what?

Re:Get what you paid for?

[Bing Tsher E]

On the other hand -- what is it with CD meta-databases and going non-free? Is it just that they seem like tempting revenue sources or what?

They are sort of a achilles heel of the CD ripping process. If there's no database on the 'net to pull down the titles for ripped CDs, it makes it less attractive to check CDs out of the library to rip.

I can think of a number of deep-pocket interests that wouldn't mind forcing us all to type in titles manually. Anything that makes it more of a hassle is going to encourage people to go out and buy the 'whole package' with all those liner notes and filler content.

Re:Get what you paid for?

[ottothecow]

Well, I like to buy my whole package with liner notes and all (note: this only applies to good music...garbage is still garbage and if I jsut one one song, I'm not buying the album) and this would encourage me not to buy CDs.

If I cant have the physical media, I'm not going to be as willing to pay for it (sorry itunes, I really like having a real CD even though I listen to everything in well-tagged mp3 files). If the pirated album is already tagged, it is just another incentive for me to save my money and time.

Re:Get what you paid for?

[Anonymous Coward]

your retarded myspace page says that your musical interests are as follows: Thursday, Flogging Molly, The Academy Is..., Death Cab for Cutie, Bright Eyes, Panic! At The Disco, Green Day, Brand New, The Matches, Elliott Smith, The Hush Sound.

your last.fm profile backs this up.
you have shitty taste in music, even if you hate itunes. you're an emo faggot, and you buy major label discs just like all the other emo faggots, while feeling high-and-mighty about it. whiny adults acting like whiny teens? no thanks. no have no license to an opinion on music, you smug little prick. kids like you are more loathesome than the corporations you pretend not to support. suck a dick.

Re:Get what you paid for?

[Anonumous Coward]

> it seems a little unfortunate that the one developer decided to just abruptly pull the plug on the service

Whooo. That one developer pulled the plug saying "I can't do this without them", after the other two developers quit. All three are "to blame", except that you can't blame anyone for no longer providing a free service financed out of their own pockets.

Re:Get what you paid for?

[megari]

It seems like there were three people on the project, and two of them wanted to take it non-free, one didn't

This is not true. He may have misunderstood us despite our repeated assertions that we have no intention of endangering freedb's freeness. We simply wanted to get things worked out so that all the requirements for freeness and other issues would be fulfilled so that everyone would be happy. He did something unexpected and unilateral while there was an effort to fix things which made us feel he didn't feel like discussing his actions with everyone anymore. This combined with all of the difficulties and the situation being effectively deadlocked eventually led into the decision of both of us leaving. Now having slept on it, I am not sure about whether it was right for me to feel that I couldn't continue with the person left. It is strange how one finds oneself blaming oneself over hastiness even though the decision took three days to make when faced with the need to make one. I'll see how things turn out. Things may or may not get well again. In any case, see this. It may help clear things out a little bit as it contains input from everyone involved. Also, the full front page of freedb.org contains some of our reasoning. The person left removed our response to his allegation that we wanted to make the project less free giving a somewhat distorted image of us to the general public, which has prompted me to make this response to make sure that misinformation doesn't turn into something everyone regards as the undisputed truth.

Re:Get what you paid for?

[Bing Tsher E]

I used to like punk rawk, too. In the early 80's I would carry around a thriftstore monophonic cassette recorder blasting the Suicide Commandoes and the Sex Pistols.

Don't worry. You'll grow out of it.

Re:Get what you paid for?

[Kadin2048]

Thank you for responding; it's good to hear from someone involved. I'm sure you all had your reasons for doing what you did, I guess the problem is that from an outsider's perspective, it's not really clear what went on, and all we see is the end result: that freedb got shut down.

I'd just like to say,

[Anonymous Coward]

on behalf of all of us geeks,

Thanks!

Re:I'd just like to say,

[Anonymous Coward]

Am I the only person who took the effort to do a bit of investigation? For instance, freedb:

For almost two years now Ari and I have supported a developer from Australia, who was working on the next generation of the freedb server, which would have overcome most of our current technological problems and offered text searching. This was the biggest chance for freedb in years. Unfortunately there have been rising tensions in our team about the question, how long we should support a development project, which has not yet been made open source by the developer and which is not yet running on freedb servers. Last weekend the line was crossed by the founder of freedb, who owns the domain, when he took action against that developer without talking to the rest of the team first, while we were still trying to find a solution in everyone's interest.

Grandparent's urls are Australian, he calls the project freedb2, and there's very little source code to be found: I'm guessing that he's this Australian.

Now, don't get me wrong -- I have the utmost respect for people who donate their free time to making software for gratis, but when that developer pledges (of sorts) to make a replacement to an OSS product, gets support from the developers of the product being replaced (was that support monetary?), and refuses to free that code, which in turn contributes to toppling another (well known and widely depended on -- yes, I know freedb still works, but still) project, I am slightly angered, to say the least.

And what stops him from now never opening that code? Replacing a FOSS product with simply a gratis product is a net loss, from where I'm standing.

Re:I'd just like to say,

[binkzz]

He is the Aussie; from one of the original developers:

"freedb2 is the development project that played a big role in the demise of freedb. That the developer is advertising it here now, apparently trying to profit from what he caused is immoral in my opinion.
Additionally, using the name freedb2.org is stealing freedb's name. Furthermore horar has not yet released source code or a database dump, so as of this moment, freedb2 is a closed source project, which violates the GPL under which the database archives are released. Even if the GPL may not be enforceable in this case, not releasing a database dump is certainly morally wrong."

Re:I'd just like to say,

[dubonbacon]

How does it violates the GPL to make another front-end for the database dump? I truely don't see the case here, please enlighten me.

Re:I'd just like to say,

[bcat24]

Neither do I. IANAL, but I think it's just someone trying to take a personal issue and make it a legal one.

Re:I'd just like to say,

[bkgood]

How does it violates the GPL to make another front-end for the database dump? I truely don't see the case here, please enlighten me.

Because the database dump itself isn't being provided. It's making what the GPL tried to make and keep free a little less free. Not to mention that he pleged it (the front-end) would be free, even if that's not a GPL issue, but more of a moral issue.

Re:I'd just like to say,

[Breakfast Pants]

Not provided? The thing is online; you can query by query get the whole thing. You can't download it as a 'dump', but he doesn't have to provide it as one.

Re:I'd just like to say,

[gnosygnus]

someone mod parent up. horar/freedb2's motives are not in full disclosure. hopefully not bad etiquette to post links to digg, but the comments are worth reading.

source of parent post: http://digg.com/software/freedb_s_future_uncertain
more comments on freedb: http://www.digg.com/linux_unix/freedb_is_closing_d own

at any rate, there seems to be more to horar's involvement than originally stated.

Re:I'd just like to say,

[shotgunefx]

What he said...

I haven't hit that thread on digg in a couple of hours, but haven't seen him address those concerns at all. Something smells funny to me.

Re:I'd just like to say,

[Anonumous Coward]

Please do your homework. The freedb database dump is released under the GPL with the following addendum:

For purposes of interpreting the GPL in connection with this work: The
database is distributed in the form of plain text files. These
will generally be processed into to another form. The text form should
be considered "source code" and the other form should be considered a
"compiled program".

This means, the moment you publish the database in any other format than a dump (e.g. through another front end), you must publish a dump of your own. If freedb2.org is using any part of freedb.org's database, it is currently infringing freedb.org's copyrights.

Re:I'd just like to say,

[topham]

Not sure how much I want to get into this discussion (I AM NOT A LAWYER) but...

Copyright is for creative works, not database collections of fact. While there have been countries making changes to allow for the copyright of databases (collection of facts), it is very much untested waters.

You'd need a lawyer to make a definitive decision (OBVIOUSLY), but it is quite likely that no licensing terms can be applied to the database files, or any derivative works thereof.

Re:I'd just like to say,

[dfjghsk]

IANAL.. but in Feist v. Rural the supreme court ruled that the telephone directory (ie: phone book) was not copyrightable.

Wikipedia:

Feist Publications, Inc., v. Rural Telephone Service Co., 499 U.S. 340 (1991),[1] commonly called just Feist v. Rural, was a United States Supreme Court case in which Feist copied information from Rural's telephone listings to include in its own, after Rural refused to license the information. Rural sued for copyright infringement. The Court ruled that information contained in Rural's phone directory was not copyrightable, and that therefore no infringement existed.

The U.S. Supreme Court ruling

I would think that the case would apply here.. since both the information in FreeDB's db, and the information in the phone book are just collections of public information.

Re:I'd just like to say,

[MartinB]

Unfortunately there have been rising tensions in our team about the question, how long we should support a development project, which has not yet been made open source by the developer

There's error #1: allowing it to be anything but open source (or at the very least, rights to open source the code assigned to Freedb).

and which is not yet running on freedb servers.

...and error #2: allowing a development to take place elsewhere out of sight (I'm assuming that it's being built sensibly, with interim reviews, unit test results etc to show that it *is* actually being built).

Finally, error #3 is betting the farm on anything without really, really well thought-through backup plan.

Re:I'd just like to say,

[Anonymous Coward]

So, he isn't violating the GPL. He's violating this other license that attempts to put datafiles under GPL-protection.

Re:I'd just like to say,

[Anonymous Coward]

both the information in FreeDB's db, and the information in the phone book are just collections of public information.

I disagree. The track offsets may be public information, but this does not apply to the comments that were entered by the submitters, the classification of the album into a specific category, etc.

Even if only a part of the freedb database is copyrightable, this part is probably large enough to ensure that a copyright violation does happen when someone copies the whole database without respecting its license terms (the GPL, in this case).

Re:I'd just like to say,

[Raphael]

You can't download it as a 'dump', but he doesn't have to provide it as one.

Wrong. He does have to provide a dump, according to the GPL. The GPL requires you to provide the sources in the "prefered form" for making modifications to it. In this case, requiring to fetch the whole database query by query and having to convert the result back to text files would certainly not qualify as the prefered form.

For more information, see this section of the GPL FAQ: Can I use the GPL for something other than software?.

And here is an excerpt from paragraph 3 of the GPL:

The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it. For an executable work, complete source code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to control compilation and installation of the executable. However, as a special exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the executable.

If distribution of executable or object code is made by offering access to copy from a designated place, then offering equivalent access to copy the source code from the same place counts as distribution of the source code, even though third parties are not compelled to copy the source along with the object code.

Note that the GPL requires distribution from the "same place", so pointing to the original freedb mirrors would not be sufficient (and would not ensure that the data remains the same anyway). This is clarified in this section of the GPL FAQ: Can I put the binaries on my Internet server and put the source on a different Internet site?

Re:I'd just like to say,

[Tim Browse]

since both the information in FreeDB's db, and the information in the phone book are just collections of public information.

Well, in that case, feel free to download the current cddb/GraceNote database, start your own CD database service with it, and see how far you get. :-)

Re:I'd just like to say,

[Rakshasa Taisab]

IANAL, but from what I know (some) countries do not consider it derivative works iff the database was manually copied. The compilation is copyrighted, the facts arn't.

Re:I'd just like to say,

[dubonbacon]

Thanks.

A quick fix

[houghi]

Not sure if the following will work, but if the directory structure is the same and you only need to change the URL, you could just edit your hosts file (or do it on router level or where ever). A lot easier then to update all the different programs for the different users:
Add to your hostfile:

203.58.241.10 freedb.org

Ugly, but it might work.

Free software for maintainance.

[jbn-o]

At the end of proprietary software development, the project ends and the free software community has to either do without or start anew from whatever they've got (which is not the proprietary program's source code and a license to run, inspect, share, and modify at any time for any reason). At the end of a free software project, others can pick up where the former free software hackers left off and continue improving the free software. If the license for the program is a copylefted free software license, the improved software continues to be free.

Let's hope source code for freedb2.org and database dumps from freedb2.org are shared under a free software license so that if freedb2.org dies we're not left with nothing but an increasingly out-of-date freedb.org database and freedb.org software.

Thanks so much for all the work, freedb.org hackers. Your efforts are greatly appreciated.

Reasons for corporate setups

[RyoShin]

While I believe that free, open source software is very good and should be used more widely, this is an example of where corporate solutions can prevail.

I've used FreeDB for a while now with the CD ripping program I use (Goldwave, highly recommended), and it had its pros and cons.

On the plus side, I could find listings for more foreign/anime CDs than I could using CDDB (a corporate company, used by the likes of WinAmp and WMP, I believe).

On the minus side, there were a few moderately popular to very popular CDs that had no listing. Also, more than a few CDs (including the foreign CDs mentioned) had more than one listing, each with small differences (some with large differences, such as translated song titles, or even just misspelled words), so you had to go through each one to find one that suited you. (One might argue that the choice was good, but in this case it was just annoying.)

The reason that FreeDB stopped is because those in the lead couldn't come to a decision. This would almost never happen in a corporate environment. Any dispute would go up the chain until it hit the CEO or board of directors, where a firm decision one way or another would be made. In the mean time, the product would merely remain unchanged (unless company policy specifies otherwise), so there would be no interruption in service.

Had FreeDB used a similar hierarchy (which they may have had, but it just fell apart), this might have been avoided. The programmers/engineers would dispute something, and the project lead/lead engineer would hear both sides and say "This is this, and that's that."

Certainly, this will be an inconvenience to those who use programs that use FreeDB, but have no idea that the program does.

Re:Reasons for corporate setups

[Anonymous Coward]

There are two sides to a dispute like this.

In a corporate environment one side would have been overruled and subsequently ignored.

In a F/OSS environment this means a project split. Both sides of the dispute are free to pursue the direction they find best.

Re:Reasons for corporate setups

[Anonymous Coward]

But the downside to splitting is the splitting of resources. Each splinter group is intitally less capable than the whole.

Re:Reasons for corporate setups

[NereusRen]

The reason that FreeDB stopped is because those in the lead couldn't come to a decision. This would almost never happen in a corporate environment. Any dispute would go up the chain until it hit the CEO or board of directors, where a firm decision one way or another would be made.

Did you even read the postings by any of the involved parties? Nothing would have been different in a "corporate" environment. What basically happened is a CEO-equivalent (someone who had control over the physical assets) DID make a firm decision. Then two people quit because they disagreed with the decision. It turned out these two people were the keys to the continued operation and development of the organization, so it closed down after they left. What exactly about this situation couldn't have happened in a corporation? The real heart of the problem was that the organization was so small that certain individuals were irreplacable, so maybe you were just confusing "corporation" with "large operation."

Hierarchy does not prevent disagreement. If a disagreement is small enough that nobody is willing to quit over it, then hierarchy can make a decision that would otherwise bog them down in debate and waste time... but this was obviously not such a case.

Unlike you, I won't claim to know the reasons why this happened, since I don't have all the details. I will only lament the death of an extremely useful project, and thank everyone involved for all the time, work and money they put into it. We can only hope a similar (and similarly free and open) project can rise to take its place.

Re:Reasons for corporate setups

[Anonymous Coward]

In the short term splitting of resources is bad. But in the long run both splinter groups get the resources they deserve according to the economic allocation mechanisms for F/OSS projects.

If conflicting ideas are powerful enough to split an F/OSS projects one of two things usually happen:

Either one side is given almost all support from the community (ie. the users and not just the people active in the project). In this case there is no resource split. Some people having ideas conflicting with the vast majority may leave the project. The disturbance in the community caused by the split often activates project users to help the project.

Or both sides have a significant following. In this case both the conflicting ideas deserve to prove their viability.

Re:Reasons for corporate setups

[Ruie]

While I believe that free, open source software is very good and should be used more widely, this is an example of where corporate solutions can prevail.

Bonkers

Had FreeDB used a similar hierarchy (which they may have had, but it just fell apart), this might have been avoided. The programmers/engineers would dispute something, and the project lead/lead engineer would hear both sides and say "This is this, and that's that."

And what happens, when they still disagree ? Bad enough that they want to quit ? If these people are essential to the company, it will fold *and* lock up the data.

Now, if you suggested a distributed way of maintaining the database (so a few people would not have to bear all the pressure), that would be useful and insightful.

Re:Reasons for corporate setups

[DamnStupidElf]

While I believe that free, open source software is very good and should be used more widely, this is an example of where corporate solutions can prevail.

Good idea, I'll jump on my brand new Amiga and dial up Genie and Compuserve, download and buy a couple of those cool sidescrollers people call abandonware (ha!) and kill a few hours. When I'm done I think I'll upgrade my Windows 95 box with the latest patches after I buy the commercial version of Trumpet Winsock. When I'm done, I'll rip some CDs with the software that came with my CD ROM drive, and I'm sure there will be some online commercial CD database that has all the indie artists I like to listen to!

The reason that FreeDB stopped is because those in the lead couldn't come to a decision. This would almost never happen in a corporate environment. Any dispute would go up the chain until it hit the CEO or board of directors, where a firm decision one way or another would be made. In the mean time, the product would merely remain unchanged (unless company policy specifies otherwise), so there would be no interruption in service.

Half the time the firm corporate decision is to completely end a project and either auction all the IP off to some lawyer-filled clearinghouse or just let it rot until the backups are no good anymore. Corporations can die just as easily as open source projects too, but unfortunately their corpses aren't easily reanimated like the open projects.

Re:Reasons for corporate setups

[ottothecow]

However, in the corporation, they could probobly offer up the salaries provided to the 2 former workers and grab a few new hires to take over the position. They would most likey have the skillset but not the familiarity with the software so there would be some training time before they could begin to implement new functions. In the mean time, the project would continue to run as it is (though, freedb is still there...the front page has a link to take you to the site...its just that it might go away any time now).

You would almost think that they could find a few new people to take the place and instead of a salary they offer the prestige of working on the project managment (it is fairly well known...). The problem with that though is it seems that the guy with the control is the bad one here, not the people leaving so...maybe he doesnt care enough to do this. They probobly should have "incorporated" or left their assets to a foundation to prevent a hostile takeover. FSF or Mozilla would probobly have been willing to take on freedb if only in a top-level organizational role while leaving the project to its own ends (like a bank controlling a trust fund)

Re:Reasons for corporate setups

[jeriqo]

"What exactly about this situation couldn't have happened in a corporation?"

If you don't see the difference, then just wait for CDDB to stop, and call me back.

Re:Reasons for corporate setups

[cfulmer]

Well, it isn't a question of whether it could happen in a corporation -- such things do happen occasionally. However, they are much less likely to because the people involved rely on their jobs to do things like pay for food. You don't just decide to quit your job immediately because you're unhappy with somebody else's decisions -- that's just the time that you start looking for another position.

In a well-run for-profit software development group, there is nobody who is indispensible -- companies don't want to throw away millions of dollars and years of effort just because "Dude. We're screwed. Joe got a better job at Google. He's the only guy who understood how all this stuff worked."

Re:Reasons for corporate setups

[Anonymous Coward]

In a for profit environment, if they developers quit, they would hire more developers. Really, this is basically just a database. Finding someone who can figure out how to keep it running should be simple. Getting people who can learn the code and take it further in the direction you want shouldn't be much harder.

Re:Reasons for corporate setups

[xmda]

Well, CDDB probably has a few more employees than FreeDB had, and the parent poster already mentioned that. What was your argument again?

Too much testosterone

[Anonymous Coward]

It gets in the way of good ideas.

OT: Re:"/." Schizm.

[SaDan]

Damn... burningserver.com is taken! That'd be a pretty sweet domain name...

Time to replicate the database!

[hernick]

By the Power of BitTorrent, the freedb.org database is made available to all.

Today, you can get the .torrent file on http://tracker.freedb.org/ - but if it ever becomes unavailable there, you can use a DHT-aware Bittorrent client such as Azureus and get it by using this info hash: 21AF020252FD2E556B683CEB123689733E0BC063

I, for one, have allocated a total of 16mbps of bandwith on four hosts to help seed this database. I'm seeing a total swarm performance of around 25mbps, so this should be a fast download for anybody who wants it.

Go ahead: feel the Power of BitTorrent and share this free database!

Share, my friends, share!

Re:Time to replicate the database!

[Anonymous Coward]

You dork.

Re:Time to replicate the database!

[jeriqo]

Woa.

So what you gonna do with it, happy bittorrent user.

What a geeky attitude.

WAH!

[crhylove]

What?!? How could this happen? GAY! VERY, VERY GAY!

Gullible?

[Kjella]

Joerg on freedb:
For almost two years now Ari and I have supported a developer from Australia, who was working on the next generation of the freedb server, which would have overcome most of our current technological problems and offered text searching. This was the biggest chance for freedb in years. Unfortunately there have been rising tensions in our team about the question, how long we should support a development project, which has not yet been made open source by the developer and which is not yet running on freedb servers. Last weekend the line was crossed by the founder of freedb, who owns the domain, when he took action against that developer without talking to the rest of the team first, while we were still trying to find a solution in everyone's interest.

Well, if I'm reading between the lines correctly:
1) Ari and Joerg support some australian guy developing the "next-gen" freedb for two years
2) Australian guy doesn't want to release it as open/free for freedb (or all three?)
3) Ari and Joerg have either been suckers or part of an attempt at pulling another Gracenote
4) Kaiser won't play ball, it's freedb or no db at all. He finally tires and goes to the source.
5) The play is called, Ari and Joerg leave because the gig is up.

To put it this way, I would not be surprised to see another CD database show up soon, lead by an australian and maybe with a few more anonymous employees. Either that, or they're been really gullible. Never ever trust someone who says they'll open source it "soon". If that is their true intention, they would have no problem being open about it all the way. The only reason not to is when you're pulling a bait-n-switch like here. It seems clear to me that they expected it to be open source ("not yet open source", Joerg), it wasn't ("did not seem to be kept free", Kaiser) and that tore them apart.

Re:Gullible?

[Horar]

I am both "the Australian guy" and the author and host of http://freedb2.org./ I sincerely hope that in future you will spend a bit more time joining the dots before jumping to such sensational conclusions.

In the meantime, I invite you to enjoy http://freedb2.org/ and browse as much of the source code as I have had time to document and post on http://asmith.id.au/freedb.html and http://asmith.id.au/mod_libpq.html

Re:Gullible?

[Kjella]

I sincerely hope that in future you will spend a bit more time joining the dots before jumping to such sensational conclusions.

Hell no. This is slashdot, I never let the facts, logic or reason get in the way of a good conspiracy theory. Also I clicked one page past what's linking in TFA, that's practicly research! Slashdot - Fox News for nerds (with a different political slant, too!). I do know how to make serious research and sometimes I do, but mostly it's just much more fun to see what will get modded up...

Re:Gullible?

[Chris Burkhardt]

He didn't have many dots to work with. I came to the same conclusion after reading the recent posts at freedb.org. It seems rather ordinary, not "sensational". What really happened?

Anyway, thanks for getting another database up so quickly, Andrew. I hope you are able to keep it Free and open. Good luck.

Re:Gullible?

[arth1]

as much of the source code as I have had time to document

In the world of litigation we live in, it's all or nothing. Keeping even a single bit to your chest gives you the munitions to go after others, and prevents them from legally creating a derivative.

That you're going to release it to the public "Real Soon Now" just doesn't cut it -- it either is or it isn't, and those of us who remember GIF, RSA, JPEG and others will treat this as "isn't". This isn't paranoia -- it's experience.

--
*Art

Re:Gullible?

[Ohreally_factor]

I don't buy the all or nothing thing. If he releases the code in the next several weeks, and as he says, he's adding documentation, cleaning it up. etc., where is the problem? If he just dumped the code, there are likely to be just as many complaints.

If I take some GPL code, I can make any changes I want to it and no one can force me to distribute the source. (As long as I do not attempt to distribute/sell the binaries, of course). If Andrew (or whatever his name is) hasn't attempted to distribute binaries that contain GPL code (and I'm not sure we know that he has for a fact), then we need to back the fuck up.

Re:Gullible?

[Carewolf]

The fact that he has promised to release the source "the next couple of weeks" for the last 2 years?

Re:Gullible?

[Anonumous Coward]

You might find this weird, but when people talk about "open source" around here, they really mean much more than just "open". All I see on http://asmith.id.au/freedb.html next to the source code, is "Copyright 2006, Andrew Smith". Would you mind adding "licence: GPL" next to it?

Re:Gullible?

[Anonymous Coward]

6) Kaiser decides he too could use some money, instead of handing over freedb.org to the community as he should:
(http://freedb.org/offer.html)

Re:Gullible?

[Anonymous Coward]

Post it all. Even if it has swear words. I'm patient. I can type the titles in manually while you attempt to earn the trust of the community.

Re:Gullible?

[megari]

1) Ari and Joerg support some australian guy developing the "next-gen" freedb for two years

Accurate, though I must point out that the support was not financial (as some have concluded) rather than providing information and database updates directly to him, keeping him company on IRC, things like that. He also helped us with the power of his improved backend. One could say it was mutual technical support.

2) Australian guy doesn't want to release it as open/free for freedb (or all three?)

Only time will tell whether he will release it under a free license. That was what we hoped for, anyway.

3) Ari and Joerg have either been suckers or part of an attempt at pulling another Gracenote

We definitely did not try pulling another Gracenote, that's for sure. Not keeping the project completely free (as in beer and as in speech) and replicable (that is, anyone can get the database and all the software needed to run a server) would have been pointless and not living up to the name and purpose of the service.

4) Kaiser won't play ball, it's freedb or no db at all. He finally tires and goes to the source.

Yes, he eventually forcibly asked the developer to release the source to him immediately. For some reason or another he wouldn't do that yet. The argument caused a deadlock which me and Jörg tried to solve unsuccessfully.

5) The play is called, Ari and Joerg leave because the gig is up.

I don't know if that would characterize it correctly. I'd rather say that because of the way things developed - and, in retrospect, the way people seemed to misunderstand each other - mutual trust between everyone eroded.

Only time will tell whether we were gullible to work with the developer of the next-generation server software or not.

Re:Gullible?

[Anonymous Coward]

We need to back a fuck-up?

Re:Gullible?

[Anonymous Coward]

If I take some GPL code, I can make any changes I want to it and no one can force me to distribute the source. (As long as I do not attempt to distribute/sell the binaries, of course). If Andrew (or whatever his name is) hasn't attempted to distribute binaries that contain GPL code (and I'm not sure we know that he has for a fact), then we need to back the fuck up.

Except that in this case, the sources for the freedb data are licensed under the GPL. So the problem is not only about the software for accessing the data, but also about the data itself. This includes not only the track offsets and titles, but also all the comments about the discs made by thousands of users who may not have contributed if they had any doubts about whether the data would remain free or not.

freedb2 is currently using this data compiled from the sources (database dumps). And it is redistributing some of this data through its query interface. So it is cleary in violation of the GPL:

• The freedb data dumps are copyrighted (many parts cannot be considered to be public domain)
• This data is licensed under the GPL (yes, the GPL can be used for things other than code; this is explained in the GPL FAQ)
• freedb2 is redistributing parts of the compiled data derived from the freedb sources
• freedb2 is not distributing the sources (the GPL requires the sources to be distributed from the "same place")
• Therefore, freedb2 is violating the GPL.

Re:Gullible?

[Hatta]

In the meantime, I invite you to enjoy http://freedb2.org/ and browse as much of the source code as I have had time to document

The GPL does not allow you to wait until the code is polished and documented to distribute it. If there are users, they must have access to the code, in whatever state it's in. Post a tarball now, and post a revision when you're done documenting it. Anything else is criminal.

Re:Gullible?

[Bob9113]

If he releases the code in the next several weeks, and as he says, he's adding documentation, cleaning it up. etc., where is the problem?

The problem is, right now, he's asking us to contribute data to him while trusting to his good will. That is exactly what CDDB did. Do you remember CDDB? They were the FreeDB before FreeDB. They took our data, then told us to fuck off while they sold it.

If he just dumped the code, there are likely to be just as many complaints.

True, but making the code better will not change that. No matter how good the code is, some jackass is going to find fault with it. The trick to Free Software is not making perfect software, but realizing that there is no such thing.

If Andrew (or whatever his name is) hasn't attempted to distribute binaries that contain GPL code (and I'm not sure we know that he has for a fact), then we need to back the fuck up.

Sure, that's fine, he can do whatever the hell he pleases. But we should no more go use FreeDB2 than go back to CDDB. As it stands today, FreeDB2 is proprietary. We all know what happens with proprietary versions of CDDB, because it happened. CDDB said they would be freee. They asked us to trust them. Then they took our data and told us to fuck off.

Moreover, he broke his obligation to FreeDB. FreeDB has our support because it is Free. At least one person, the person who started FreeDB, the person who grasped why we chose FreeDB over CDDB, expected him to maintain the agreement that is the core value proposition of FreeDB. If Andrew broke that agreement (and maybe he hasn't yet), then he has stolen from a Free project. Should FreeDB have insisted on the copyright like Apache does? Perhaps, then this wouldn't be a problem. Does that mean it's FreeDB's fault? Perhaps, at least in part. Does that mean we should stand up for Andrew (or whatever his name is)? Absolutely not. At this point, he is a maybe crook.

Re:Gullible?

[digitalvengeance]

Why not do a quick tarball of your source directory and throw it up? If its disorganized, fine.. let the community organize it. If its got some poor code, who cares? We have all been guilty of hacks. It can't take more than 15 minutes to release source code and it would go a long way toward making your project acceptable to the community.

Re:Gullible?

[Tillmann]

Hi,

I have spent quite an amount trying to "join the dots" before jumping to my conclusion. The primary accusation against you is that you have not released the complete source code of your work on FreeDB2. I have checked out the URLs you posted, and while there is some source code there, the code that is available is not even remotely sufficient for setting up a service similar to what you are offering on freedb2.org.

So my conclusion is that the accusations against you are indeed correct. I'd be happy to be proven wrong by someone showing me the complete source code for setting up a freedb2-like service.

If you don't want people to think that YOU are the one who is the reason for FreeDB shutting down, then just RELEASE THE SOURCE CODE. Don't give us any "didn't have time to document/post" crap. You can still document it later on. For now, it will be sufficient if you just pack up the code you have to a tar.gz file, and post it on your site. It's just 5 minutes of work, and it will show the world that you are not the one responsible for the FreeDB disaster.

bye,
Tillmann

Re:Gullible?

[smallpaul]

If Andrew (or whatever his name is) hasn't attempted to distribute binaries that contain GPL code (and I'm not sure we know that he has for a fact), then we need to back the fuck up.

No, now is the time to pressure him to explain his actions. He's popped his head up on Slashdot several times in this thread and not yet has he given any kind of explanation. My understanding of the situation puts him in a very bad light and id he had any defense I would expect him to provide it.

• He accepted money to create GPL software. He has not released the software he promised.
• For years he has been saying that the software will be "available soon". He should just make a tarball of his development directory and allay everyone's fears.
• His actions caused the death of freedb.
• He is now directing people to his freedb competitor (presumably based on the software he was paid to make).
• That competitor serves Google advertisments and thus each hit makes the author money

Now is the time for him to tell his side of the story. I don't see any virtue in people laying off for a few weeks. Procastination seems to be his MO.

Re:Gullible?

[Anonymous Coward]

The GPL does not allow you to wait until the code is polished and documented to distribute it.

It does if you own the entire copyright. The "article" doesn't make it clear.

Re:Gullible?

[Ohreally_factor]

Thank you for the information. Given what you've told me, it's not unreasonable to expect an explanation.

Re:Gullible?

[Kadin2048]

Well if you own the copyright, you can do whatever you want with it, and release it under whatever license you'd like.

However, you can't say that you're releasing it under the GPL, and then choose not to provide source code. If you don't provide source, then it's not really GPLed.

If you are being contracted to produce code under the GPL, but then don't release the code concurrently with the binaries, then in my mind, you're probably breaching your contract with the person paying you to produce the code.

Just my $0.02.

Re:Gullible?

[topham]

He can say he's releasing it under the GPL and then never release it. Ethically and morally he can change his mind; he has the right.

Having read most of the comments on this story, and actually downloading the freedb database and code available as of July 1st, I can honestly say they need some serious help.

If this individual honestly thinks he can improve things and honestly wants to release the code, even if at a later date, I don't see a problem with it. I don't understand why the people currently responsible for freedb would throw in the towel the way they have. Except one possible reason.

They know that if he does even some of what is proposed they will no longer be necessary. period.

I was shocked at what constitutes the freedb; it is extreemly amateurish; and all parties are acting like children.

I know saying this won't make me popular, but the current state of the project is pathetic.

(Note: there are multiple messages, from both sides of this discussion indicating the 'help' he received was non-monetary. If the current state of the project is any example,, the help wasn't revolutionary either.).

I do have to congratulate the current maintainers for keeping the services up and running and the service available; but as an on-going concern the project as it stands is doomed.

WTH

[ThoreauHD]

You jackasses are the core of all music database systems. Just because you don't like each others hair, doesn't mean you put that before the project. Grow up you adolescents.

Maybe move it to Wikipedia

[Animats]

Wikipedia is busily replicating GraceNote and IMDB, by hand, and not too well. They're using a wiki to do the job of a database. Some music types from Wikipedia should take this database and the data in Wikipedia and make something useful out of it.

Personally, I think that Wikipedia needs something like "Wikipedia Music and Movies", to which all content associated with music, movies, TV, and the people involved in the industry would be moved. More structured than Wikipedia Encyclopedia, Music and Movies would have standard database formats and slots for music and movies, indexed so that you could see all movies by some director or all songs by some musician. Wikipedia can't do that, but IMDB can.

Then Wikipedia needs "Wikipedia Atlas", a map-based system, for all those "State Route 93" entries. Wikipedia isn't spatial, and space is what keeps everything from being in the same place. An atlas system would be able to handle an endless number of "my favorite restaurant" articles. Wikipedia Travel already has something like this.

With that out of the way, Wikipedia would become more like an encyclopedia. Right now, it's drowning under the incoming cruft.

Re:Maybe move it to Wikipedia

[AnyoneEB]

Better organization sounds like a good idea, but perhaps it could be done with less work for the editors. I believe those pages already have standard templates that are used, so couldn't you just make the templates special? I mean, provide a way for a template variable to be treated as metadata for a page, so if you have a song template and an artist variable, a search could be done for songs by that artist. It would not make sense to give this treatment to the vast majority of template arguments, so there would have to be special way to mark them. Then again, you could also just use categories and include variable categories in the template (ex. <includeonly>[[Category:Songs by {{{artist}}}]]</includeonly>). A recursive category display could show a similar listing to the IMDB listing. Ex. Actor has subcategories TV shows with Actor and Movies with Actor, the Actor category could be made to show the contents of its subcategories. The again, that would still appear not as "smart" as the IMDB system which knows to list by year in that instance and alphabetically/by relavance in searches (and include "also known as" titles in searches).

I agree that Wikipedia has trouble dealing with locations. It is a hard problem in part because that pretty much requires graphics to work well.

Re:Maybe move it to Wikipedia

[joe_plastic]

"I agree that Wikipedia has trouble dealing with locations"
Try wikimapia -- it's like a wiki mixed with google maps.

Re:Maybe move it to Wikipedia

[alerante]

Such ideas have been proposed before. Have a look at Wikidata for an example.

Re: Maybe move it to Wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

Wikipedia isn't drowing under incoming cruft because of its wiki-based setup, it is drowning under incoming cruft because of its flawed philosophy.

Personally, I think Wikipedia needs to concentrate more on quality and stability than on the utopian "We trust everyone". Not everyone is trustable, this is easy to demonstrate--just change the threshold to -1 and to Nested or Flat.

Free DB2?

[Anonymous Coward]

IBM's gonna be pissed.

That is all.

Time for a new business (sic) model

[Anonymous Coward]

Time for a new business (sic) model. If you want to survive, eat (or die). If you want to be eaten, open source ! Viva la revolution !

froSt pist

[Anonymous Coward]

serves to reinforce it atempts to

This so reminds me of the Censorware project.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the one which was destroyed by Michael Sims and his rampant, uncontrollable ego. You remember Michael? He used to be an 'Editor' here at Slashdot for a while. Before they finally figured out what a tossbag he was and fired him...although they should never have hired him in the first place, and probably did more damage to Slashdot by doing so than anything else.

Choice = annoyance

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, more than a few CDs (including the foreign CDs mentioned) had more than one listing, each with small differences (some with large differences, such as translated song titles, or even just misspelled words), so you had to go through each one to find one that suited you.(One might argue that the choice was good, but in this case it was just annoying.)

Is offering a choice of original and translated titles more or less annoying than if they had standardised on the language you like less? Do multiple language and subtitle tracks on DVDs annoy you too?

whiners

[Gothmolly]

This sounds like the *BSD or XFree86 faggotry.

Isn't freedb open source?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this a problem? The freedb server is open source and the database is also available for download from freedb.org.

Whats with..

[paulmer2003]

..The lag it took them to make this post? Last NIGHT I was reading about this. Pfft.

Re:good database, but could have been so much more

[Trogre]

A blob field for album covers would be great too, so programs like Amarok don't have to point to Amazon.com's limited collection.

freedb has sucked for ages, though...

[yoasif]

freedb has sucked almost since it's inception. Multiple entries for the same album, hard to do Various Artist albums, lots of misspellings and mistakes, and no way to ""fix" the problems.

I really hope people take this opportunity to check out Musicbrainz, a MUCH nicer alternative. It's (mostly) open source, runs on Linux, Mac and Windows.

Also, it's community moderated like Wikipedia, and it has loads of information about releases, something which was nonexistent on freedb.

Re:freedb has sucked for ages, though...

[NoMaster]

freedb has sucked almost since it's inception. Multiple entries for the same album, hard to do Various Artist albums, lots of misspellings and mistakes, and no way to ""fix" the problems.

In other words, the same problems that afflicted the original (free) CDDB (now Gracenote)?

FWIW, I've found much the same problems with Musicbrainz, except that it's much more likely to tag a track totally incorrectly than CDDB/Gracenote or FreeDB ever were...

Re:freedb has sucked for ages, though...

[Per Wigren]

FWIW, I've found much the same problems with Musicbrainz, except that it's much more likely to tag a track totally incorrectly than CDDB/Gracenote or FreeDB ever were...

Yes, if you use the TRM audio fingerprinting you'll get several possible matches for many songs. If your software automatically use the first or most likely match without letting you choose you'll get some totally incorrect tags.

If you use their freedb/cddb-like TOC lookup it's actually MORE accurate than freedb/cddb.

Re:freedb has sucked for ages, though...

[bgurtler]

who commits changes that are wrong?
in my experience, MB doesn't do anything that you don't tell it to do.

Sure thing, Yoko.

[ip_freely_2000]

I'll check into that real soon now.

Re:good database, but could have been so much more

[topham]

And who deals with the copyright issues for the artwork?

P2P song db?

[flacco]

would a massively-replicated and -distributed p2p database of song information be a better answer to this need? why put all the eggs in one cranky-developer basket, especially when such a large number of individuals have contributed their typing to building it?

Re:P2P song db?

[Richy_T]

Definitely. Who would want to host all that data utilising all that bandwidth which it's hard to make any money from anyway? Distributed is the way to go for sure.

NSurvey

[Anonymous Coward]

Reminds me of NSurvey, a FOSS survey program that went commercial. I make it a point now to always download the source code for *ANY* binary download I make - as is yours and my right.

That's also why I am a little surprised that Ubuntu's source code isn't up on their download page, there isn't even a link to it.

Re:NSurvey

[zootm]

That's also why I am a little surprised that Ubuntu's source code isn't up on their download page, there isn't even a link to it.

Ubuntu is a Linux distribution. The source to the packages is available in the same place as the packages themselves. Because of the way APT works, it doesn't make sense to have a monolithic source download for that sort of thing. You can download the source via the package manager.

Re:NSurvey

[Anonymous Coward]

The GPL requires you to make the source code available from the same place as the binaries and the source code should be the prefered form from making modifications to the work.

Ubuntu is right on both counts. freedb2 is wrong and is violating the GPL.

DVD Decrypter, anyone?

[Trillian_1138]

I don't buy the all or nothing thing. If he releases the code in the next several weeks, and as he says, he's adding documentation, cleaning it up. etc., where is the problem? If he just dumped the code, there are likely to be just as many complaints.

I think the point being made was that in a world where someone can be sued and forced to remove software from distribution - either from legal rulings or the threat of litigation forcing a chioce of financial priorities - saying that the source will be released "real soon now" may mean it's never released at all. Obviously, releasing well-formated source code with documentation is better than releasing poorly formated code with no documentation, but both are better than releasing nothing at all.

I mention DVD Decrypter in the subject of the post because it's a well-known (if you're into that kind of thing) DVD ripping software that was taken down from a number of (US-hosted) sites after threat of litigation and, since it was closed-source, no further developement was made. Now, I'm not trying to compare FreeDB to DVD Decrypter, either in terms of legality or morality. Just using DVD Decrypter as an example of software which, had it been open source, could still be under developement but because the source code wasn't being released is now "lost forver." (Of course, in actually, it's not that hard to find a download of the final released version of DVD Decrypter, but it would have been nice if the code was out there for other people to continue improving.)

Again, I'm not trying to compare FreeDB to DVD Decrypter. Just providing an example for the parent's point that you never know how some court ruling or sue-happy lawfirm is going to affect what's out there. I'm not even trying to say FreeDB *should* post every line of code currently written - I can understand why the author wouldn't want that. At the same time, I can understand why the GP has an attitude of "all-or-nothing" in terms of calling something 'open source.'
-Trillian

Re:DVD Decrypter, anyone?

[Ohreally_factor]

Fair enough. Perhaps part of the problem is that we are relying on two imperfect mechanisms for conflict resolution: The courts and the court of public opinion. Someone wants this tried in the second court, thus the spill-over to slashdot.

I think that what bothers me is the tendency (of both humans and slashdotters) to form lynch mobs based on incomplete facts or even distortions of the facts. I can't really even tell what the conflict is about from the "article" (lack of article); seems more like a developer squabble than anything really earthshaking.

It seems to me that one of the uses of this thing called journalism is that a fair and impartial investigator can try to find the facts and report them, so that we might form our own opinions on the issues. I know, it's an antiquated view. And good luck trying to get a slashdot editor to actually do any sleuthing. The idea is laughable.

freedb2.org is violating the GPL!

[Anonymous Coward]

Quote from one of the freedb authors:

freedb2 is the development project that played a big role in the demise of freedb. That the developer is advertising it here now, apparently trying to profit from what he caused is immoral in my opinion.

Additionally, using the name freedb2.org is stealing freedb's name. Furthermore horar has not yet released source code or a database dump, so as of this moment, freedb2 is a closed source project, which violates the GPL under which the database archives are released. Even if the GPL may not be enforceable in this case, not releasing a database dump is certainly morally wrong.

As far as I can see, freedb2 is not distributing the database dump, which was licensed under the GPL. I do not like to see comments on Slashdot promoting a project that violates the GPL. freedb2 has used the data provided under the GPL by freedb and is not giving anything back (yet?).

To be clear about why freedb2 violates the GPL, I will point out that the GPL requires every distributor to make the source code (plain text database dump) available "from the same place" as the binaries (the database used by freedb2). So simply adding references to the original freedb mirros would not be sufficient in this case, especially because these CD databases evolve over time so it is likely that freedb and freedb2 could contain different data. For reference, see this section of the GPL FAQ.

I have contributed a large number of CDs to the freedb database (including corrections to existing entries). I have done it because I knew that the database was licensed under the GPL and could not be taken away from the users (note that I am talking about the database, not the programs used for accessing it). I was using the old XMCD before the database was taken over by what became Gracenote. I was very happy to see freedb emerging, promoting freedom as one of its core values. That's why I contributed my CDs to this free database.

Unless the freedb2 developer (who seems to be responsible for the problems with freedb) complies with the GPL and offers a complete dump of the database, I will discourage anybody from using freedb2.

So What?

[TheoMurpse]

I understand that whenever a free resource dies, it is a time of lamentation. However, what I do not understand is why this is such a big deal. Are people really that lazy that they cannot be bothered to type in song titles when ripping CDs? I've ripped hundreds and have found most of freedb's responses to be wrong (using CDex). Granted, I own a lot of non-English CDs, but even when I rip English CDs, I prefer to input my own metainformation in. It's just one more minute of time, guys!

too bad

[Anonymous Coward]

would you mind sending SPAM to this email address: runbeth@yahoo.com

Re:good database, but could have been so much more

[Trogre]

I forgot to mention it in the OP, but I believe a sufficiently small copy (say 200x200) would constitute fair use while still being recognizable.

Time for a more flexible solution?

[CarpetShark]

Maybe, with this change, and other changes such as individual track downloads and other media mp3 players, DVD-Audio, etc., it's time for something better than a CD-Audio database? Aren't all the tools available now to recognise the actual songs' "fingerprints"? Couldn't a more flexible database, with lyrics etc. be built with that technology?

GPL Rules!!!

[mlwmohawk]

Who says some developers can't get together and just start "www.reallyfreedb.org?" We can download July version of the dataase, host the software, and continue on as if nothing happened. Anyone interested?

Who cares?

[Qbertino]

The essential part about all this is the collaboratively filtered and collected data, right? And that is out in the wild and still available as a package, correct?
Copy, Fork, Install, Build a cool website, have yourself a fresh OSS project. No big deal.
Ideal for anyone who needs to make themselves a name as DB admin / web services expert. ...Mmmmh... Coming to think of it ... does anyone know the mean load of late freedb?

Anyway, a handfull of weeks and we'll have an alternative and freedb will be history (no pun intened).

My 2 cents.

Where is the source? I can't find it.

[ballermann]

Hmm I looked at the URLs you provided but all I could find were some CREATE TABLE statements and some scripts to do conversion between different character encodings.

As far as I understand we're talking about a full FreeDB server here, something that is able to answer requests and accept new submissions. I haven't seen any such code!

There is no need to comment your source code in fancy HTML pages. We can read pure source. Just put up a tarball with the source online and we'll see what you did in the last two years.

Am I missing something?

[Civil_Disobedient]

I don't understand. You claim that you'll release the source code to the public, yet when the issue came to a head and the two main freedb devs essentially walked away from years of (free) work, you just sat by and watched? We could have avoided all of this mess if you'd even just given them the code and said, "Here, this is the source, this is the license, could you please hold off on distributing it until after I've documented it?" Then they'd at least be able to open it up to the public if you were to get hit by a bus or something in the interim.

But you didn't do that. And now you're shilling your code on /. with promises you should have kept a year ago. Why should any of us trust you, when you could have prevented all of this?

Re:good database, but could have been so much more

[BeBoxer]

I found it's pretty common for CD drives to not return bit-identical results when ripping the exact same CD. I've got several drives, and they will not all result in matching MD5 sum output. I forget the details, but one drive for example would add a few extra 0 bytes onto the front of the CD. And that's without taking into account the possibility of scratches or differences between different copies of the same album. It's a nice idea, keeping the MD5 sum, but would probably just result in huge numbers of duplicate entries.

Database dumps CANNOT be GPL'd

[Anonymous Coward]

That very page you linked from GNU also says this:

Copyright law does not give you any say in the use of the output people make from their data using your program. If the user uses your program to enter or convert his own data, the copyright on the output belongs to him, not you. More generally, when a program translates its input into some other form, the copyright status of the output inherits that of the input it was generated from.

The CD info is factual public-domain data, and anyone's added comments/notes are copyrighted to their authors. The freedb software has translated it into another form, which doesn't give them any ownership rights, and ergo they can't impose GPL on it.

Database dumps are NOT "source code" no matter what the freedb guys say. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one.

Bosses have egos as well...

[Explo]

As stated by the subject, the bosses are just as human as the other team members. So, while it can be hoped that being capable of diplomacy, tact and some ego control helps one to become a boss, it does not guarantee that they can't get stubborn and irrational as well every now and then.

Regarding the closed-source projects, I'd assume that most of the ones that were damaged sufficiently by personnel conflicts would do so inside the walls of a company, without much publicity. After all, not all projects get hyped much until they have progressed moderately far, whether they are open or closed source.

Thieves?

[Explo]

Care to tell how I'm supposed to be a thief, while I'm listening for a CD chosen from my collection of a couple of hundred or so audio CDs I've bought since 1991 and player application uses the database to display track/artist information?

(Sure, I could just look at the track number and compare it to the listing contained at the back of the CD. But why not use the technology, when it's available.)

Re:good database, but could have been so much more

[CaptainCheese]

well, it's just blue-sky thinking - an example of one possible feature that could have been useful. perhaps a straightforward checksum of tracks, with fuzzy best-matching searches would do the trick. maybe not. Trogre suggests in this thread that a very small cover graphic would be good.

Of course, I've not really looked into it - there may be technical limitations to the CDDb format the freedb has to adhere to...

Re:good database, but could have been so much more

[topham]

Having looked at what constitutes freedb I can honestly say there is plenty of opportunity for improvement.
Staying compatible with the current protocol isn't difficult, and moving it forward to something more recent would not be difficult. It is an exceptionally easy and straightforward process.

The issue I would have with the cover-art is copyright issues. To resolve that would require licensing arrangements with the music publishers. Not fun, and not going to happen for a free database.

I seriously considered what it would take to run a freedb server in the last few days.

freedb consists of hundreds of thousands of files, it isn't a database per say. (the rock folder contains 574,664 files each only a couple K in size. )

In the end an uncompressed archive is 3,513,815,040 bytes. 3.5Gigs. I don't have easy access to that kind of space on a server on the internet. (ok, I might, but that would require negotiating with my boss. Don't think they are up for it. No clue what the actual bandwidth hit is for freedb)