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Paul Thurrott Bitten by WGA
suntory writes "Paul Thurrott, one of the most important Microsoft advocates, has been bitten by Windows Genuine Advantage. As some Slashdot users have reported, Paul installed a bunch of updates in his machine and now Microsoft thinks that he is using pirated software." From the post: "Truthfully, I can only imagine what triggered these alerts. The software was installed to a VM a long time ago and archived on my server. I no doubt used a copy of XP MCE 2005 that I had received as part of my MSDN subscription. If the WGA alerts are to be believed, it's possible that Microsoft thinks I've installed this software on too many machines, though that seems unlikely to me. I can't really say. Anyway, that's what it looks like to be a suspected pirate. Like many people who will see these alerts, I don't believe I did anything wrong. I'm sure that's going to be a common refrain in this new era of untrusting software and companies. Ah well."
The acceptable face of spyware
Dear Bill:
The following argument is so old it should probably be modded redundant, but given Steve's mental faculties, perhaps it bears repeating.
1 - Pirates will not be hurt by this as they have corporate keys, etc
2 - Genuine customers will be annoyed by this
3- Therefore this makes no sense
By presupposing your customers are dishonest Microsoft creates tremendous ill-will. This would, of course, normally be a bad thing. Worse - they have that nice monopoly so it doesn't really matter. This causes unhappiness and resentment, even amongst ridiculous Redmond fanbois like Paul Thurrott and Ed Bott.
So, my friends, there is only one way out. If we want to be happy, Windows must be kill -9'd.
He certainly is a bigger man than I. I can say that I would have been as diplomatic in his situation. Then again, what are the chances of that.
"Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
You can remove the sting from WGA bites by wiping some doc leaves over your keyboard and mouse.
liqbase
Nelson's Ha Ha!
Didn't you know?
You have to keep buying your Windows software every year or two in order to update it, how else is Microsoft going to stay the biggest software company in the world?
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
at least Microsoft doesn't play favorites!
I will be royally pissed if I received one of these messages after spending hundreds of dollars on a software product. And if they disable the software beause they think it's pirated, they will lose me as a customer - forever.
I can just see it now, businesses trying to get work done while dealing with those messages.
I've had some problems with the new WGA that has gone out, and I find that it is only hurting and hindering legitimate users. People I know who are running Corporate or otherwise cracked editions are patiently waiting for a new crack for WGA, but legitimate end users are worried / concerned when the little alert pops up saying that their copy of Windows might not be legit. It has been my experience that if you are using a cracked / Volume / Corporate version of Windows, you know it, you ignore the messages, you wait for a crack. The legit users who see this message get scared. Therefore, I don't see WGA solving any of the problems MS intended it to.
Ah well?, Ah well? This is the extent of outrage in "this new era"?!? Amazing!
Thurrott will still be ranting and raving about how much Windows is light years ahead of OS X and Linux.
". . . I don't beleive I did anything wrong. I'm sure that's going to be a common refrain in this new era of untrusting software and companies. Ah well."
No, not "ah well."
Customers have a legitimate expectation to be treated as if they are wanted and valued not as if they are a threat to the enterprise for using the product they purchased.
Companies that treat their customers as criminals instead of as their reason for being in business will find themselves at a severe competative disadvantage. Such actions will hurt companies who engage in them, in big and small ways.
WGA has already resulted in several lawsuits. Those court proceedings are sapping resources from Microsoft. There is time being spent by developers and software architects in helping lawyers prepare court cases instead of doing the more important parts of their job. Those resources aren't being used to fix bugs, develop new features, or in any way serve current or future customers.
That hurts the both the consumer and the stockholder.
-Apple, for example, does not burden users with Product Activation or any similar anti-piracy technologies in its Mac OS X operating system- Now why the hell would they? OS X generally only runs on Apple hardware. So someone would have to buy an Apple computer (with OS included) to run the pirated copy.
Why would he be outraged? He is trying to sell Windows. He's trying to get people accustomed to the accusations that come from WGA. He's not trying to discourage them from using Windows altogether. It's his job to do this!
I'll probably be modded down for this...
I have no idea why WGA issued a warning either, but I can say that if it had anything to do with a version of something installed on a VM, you would think that's a pretty esoteric corner case that some developer should just live with.
On the other hand, how many Microsoft systems are really all that vanilla these days? Perhaps the way WGA gets paid for is through Microsoft's 900 support number?
Honestly, with the number of false positives that WGA seems to be throwing up, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find that it's working exactly as it's supposed to. How many clueless users out there who received a legitimate copy of Windows with their machine are going to get these messages? Now how many of those same clueless users will then throw another couple hundred bucks at Microsoft to "become legitimate" (nevermind that they were legitimate before)? This just seems like yet another unethical move by a company who's shown that they have no problem being unethical (faking evidence in court anyone?)...
This guy's the limit!
Fixing the computers of friends and family, I've had occassion to call in to Microsoft on licensing issues quite a few times. They've always been tremendously helpful, non-judgemental and ready to listen. It's not a perfect system, but it's fairly well designed to handle false-positives and take care of mistakes fairly. It does put them at a competitive disadvantage in that I'd rather buy a product that didn't have activation and authentication, but that's their call to make. I have a problem with our government subsidizing enforcement, but what a private company does with it's own product is fair game, as long as they let me know about it before I buy it.
"Don't you know you're going to shock the monkey?"- Peter Gabriel
Um ... no.
While it's true (and I'm damn glad) that Apple doesn't mess around with any "activation" crap per se, saying that they don't burden the user with any 'anti-piracy technologies' is a bit rich.
After all, I have a $1500 hardware dongle sitting under by desk to prove it.
Apple doesn't need any WGA-like stuff, because even if you pirate the OS (which, let's face it, happens all the time -- heck, you can dupe an OS X installation CD using tools provided with OS X), you can only run it on hardware purchased from Apple. Assuming they ratchet up the requirements accordingly every few years, they have a stream of income from you. Not as much as if you bought each version of the OS as it came out, but it's still something. Apparently, it's enough for them not to burden their users with onerous phone-home spyware.
The biggest reasons why I wish the OSX86 Project people would just crawl under a rock and disappear, is that if OS X ever gets severely cracked to the point where an average user can install it on commodity hardware, I can almost guarantee that Apple will go the activation route. Sure, I'm sure they'll be a lot friendlier about it than Microsoft has, and the whining will be suitably mild (and they'll have lines of pundits defending them), but it'll be obnoxious just the same.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Ubuntu users everywhere were jealous when they heard about how Microsoft Windows users get this kind of authenticity test, whereas Linux users have no such thing. Well, fret not! I have been hard at work programming the equivalent for Linux users. The first release I give you is UGA - the Ubuntu Genuine Advantage. (More versions for other distros coming soon.) Here are the steps to follow for Ubuntu users: 1) Hit Alt+F2. 2) Paste this into the text entry box: zenity --info --text "Your copy of Ubuntu is valid.\nThank you for not pirating it\!" 3) Click Run. Enjoy!
...except that, if you were to read TFA, you would see that this is not a pirated version of Windows. Do you really want to start a program where you randomly accuse your customers of being software pirates, even when they are not? How will that help "stop piracy" when the real pirates are using corporate keys to begin with (and are immune from WGA) and the real customers are being falsely flagged?
But I guess you just wanted to whine about Apple.
The one and only time I ever had to call, I was immediately accused of installing the software on too many machines. They were so quick to jump the gun on it, that I know damn well they couldn't have been actually looked at the history for the software since it had been activated ONCE on the EXACT same hardware on ONE machine almost a year prior.
That is the ONE problem I have with Microsoft's software: they see pirates around every corner and their customers are criminals.
"So you think my money is counterfeit? I'm a counterfeiter as well?? You are sending me to jail for 40 years? Ah well."
"You're everywhere. You're omnivorous."
True, but the story here is that WGA is a problem for legitimate customers of Windows. No legitimate OS X customer is ever going to be bothered by or even realize that OS X checks for TPM. (This assuming that Apple doesn't start doing other, DRM-related stupid stuff with TPM.)
Legitimate Windows users have to put up with WGA. Legitimate Adobe Creative Suite users have to put up with activation processes that are a pain in the butt if you have a deadline and needed to reinstall on a new laptop because your previous one died. Legitimate DVD purchases have to put up with hard or impossible to skip FBI warnings before the actual content, while pirated versions either physical or downloaded have nothing of the sort.
How are they all getting it so very wrong?
'Thats they exact same thing a banana wrench monkey.'
Its because this guy is a complete and total Lackey Wuss! He has a legitimate copy of a product and - from what I gather - is a journalistic outlet.
He has an opportunity to voice the opinions and concerns of the people and instead chose to bend over and take one right in the arse!
Thanks Paul and Fuck You very much!
Actually if you look on BitTorrent right now (at one of the bigger trackers, e.g. Pirate Bay) and just type in Windows XP, some of the most popular downloads aren't just straight ISOs of the Microsoft install discs, instead they're cracked versions of them.
... heard it from a guy, you know, on the bus.
In some cases you can get cracked versions of Windows that bypass all the serialization (it just drops in a corporate number), install faster than a legit disc, and have a lot of updates not in the MSFT discs slipstreamed in, so it reduces your update workload once you get the thing installed.
In many ways, the cracked products are superior to the legitimate ones from an ease-of-use standpoint.
Not that I'd know any of this from experience or anying
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
and shoot it. We need to check for rabies!
Yeah but what about all the people using cracked versions that don't know it. I imagine there's a TON. How many times do you install XP for a friend or something, and instead of telling them they need to cough up $XXX for an intangible license, you just install the cracked version.
Sure the user is using illegal software, but you can really blame them when they genuinely have no idea?
... and I still don't buy it.
:-), there was a bloke ("Rob C", a postman actually, who my brother actually ended up working with for a while) who spent a lot of time cracking games and putting N of them on a disk with his name on the menu. Lots of disks made their way around the pirate scene. Did the XL somehow become a dongle, just because it wasn't a PC ?
:-). I must have spent ~$1200 on a mac, and ~$300 on OS so far. 25% is a significant chunk of cash just to assume the user will be "a good guy/gal", but that's what they do, and I (for one) appreciate it.
The argument that the machine is a "dongle" only works if it were true. It's not. I can purchase a copy of OSX Tiger and give it to any number of other Mac users to install on their machine, and Apple lose money. Sure, you *have* already bought a computer from them, and I'm sure Apple are happy about that, but to claim that it somehow restricts you from piracy is just wrong.
Back when I were a young lad, I had an Atari XL (the first computer I ever had that came with a disk drive
People operate within their communities, if there is the potential for theft within that community there will be some people who will take that opportunity. For the mac, the community is mac-owners, and the potential for piracy is just as valid within that community as for PC owners within theirs. The Mac community is smaller, true, but that doesn't matter when you're (ahem) "swapping" software.
I just don't believe that spending $$$ on a computer entitles you to stop spending $ on software from the same company (can you tell I'm a reformed character
Simon.
Physicists get Hadrons!
When are you Windows users ever going to learn? You guys are just like abused women who just can't seem to get out of the relationship. You may be financially dependent. Emotionally dependent (unusual). Physically (gaming, porn, gambling; even more weird). Microsoft doesn't trust you, manipulates you, gouges you, and neglects you! You need to ditch that guy! With Windows, you are not a user but just plain used! You need to give that artistic guy who always dresses good and seems to be gay a chance. Perhaps, you might like the geeky awkward guy who needs some work to bring him around!
You don't have to be smart to use a Mac, you just have to be smart enough to buy one
Or how about not using some very suspiciously weird looking website that requires you to install a plugin, and use autopatcher which you can take from computer to computer and update them as you go along?
http://autopatcher.com/
A significant number of people who did nothing wrong will be hassled by WGA, whereas the determined pirate will continue his illegal copying of Windows. At the end of the day, this is the outcome of any copy protection scheme-- those who were on the fence about copying, or don't have the technical knowledge about how to circumvent the protection, will perhaps pony up the cash for a legit copy. (Or, in this case, have a legit copy and still be harassed.) Those who would have paid will continue to pay, and those who would have copied will continue to copy.
Maybe if Microsoft made the feature set crippled or mad Windows (Vista?) suck a lot less, this wouldn't be as much of a problem for them.
"Politicians find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the people."
Which is interesting because when I replaced the hard drive in my laptop, which required me to reactivate Windows for the gosh knows how many'th time (The machine and the software is 5 years old almost, I bought it used which meant it was activated at least twice before I bought it - once on the original purchase and once when it was wiped to be resold) the software didn't want to activate by itself since it said it had been activated too many times already. The conversation with the person on the phone went something like this:
MS: Thank you for calling Microsoft, can I have the installation id that's on your screen?
Me: (reads long number)
MS: Thank you. (pause) Ok, how many machines has this been installed on? (You could read this as someone accusing me of piracy, but it's a pretty reasonable question when some people might not realise you're not supposed to install on numerous machines)
Me: Just the one
MS: And why do you need to reactivate?
Me: Replaced the hard drive in my laptop.
MS: Ok, I'm going to read out an activation number for you to put in the box, and you should be ok. (Gives me long number)
Very polite, minimal questions, took less than 5 minutes, and it was at 11:30 at night on a Saturday.
Now, it's fair enough to say that there might not be a real need for activation, that MS is being boneheaded by requiring it, or that they should be more trusting of their customers; these are all fair comments. It's also possible that you might have had a phone agent on a bad day. I just know from my experience that they've been always very very polite and if they err, it's on the side of permissiveness. I also assume that if I was hyper-sensitive and acted like a jerk, they might have been less polite to me. I would never suggest that was the case with you of course.
- ------- There are ten kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who... Huh?
This may be somewhat OT, but is anyone else sick to death of this? Welcome to the world of Corporate double-speak where:
Small = Tall
Medium = Grande
Large = Venti
So why in the world is it called "Windows Genuine Advantage" anyway when it's really just an anti-piracy detector? What conceivable "Advantage" is there for the consumer and why wasn't Windows Update just left well enough alone? I know Microsoft has a right to protect it's products but at least have the decency to call it what it is: Anti-Piracy validation.
And before I get modded flamebait, I'm not particularly picking on MS or Starbucks here. I am trying to make the point that in many ways and in many different forms of media we are increasingly being conditioned to accept corporate and marketing double-speak that just does not make any sense. These are just the examples that came to mind first.
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?
The article's author, while lamenting the fact that Microsoft has just accused him of a federal crime, simply responds with a sigh and a recommendation that we should all get used to the idea.
EXCUSE ME?!? No.
This guy has already decided to go with the lemming mentality. He figures that lots of people will have this problem, so why worry? That's what people thought about the RIAA's threats too, until the lawsuits started.
(EG. One time, I tried to explain that my Windows activation problem was due to experimenting with installing my copy inside Virtual PC, and I had since removed that - and just wanted to put it back on my original PC like it was supposed to be. That was met with the support person repeating the question over and over, "How many total computers have you installed Windows on?" They seemed to have no idea what I was talking about.....)
What is so weird about that? Because they work in one department of a tech company, they aren't suddenly turned into technical virtuosos, or even technically literate people. The person on the other end had probably never heard of a Virtual PC, and would probably be confused if the concept was explained to them, as well as not understanding WHY one would ever want to do a thing like that.
The other persons probably saw the conversation like this;
Support: Ok, can I ask how many computers you have this copy of Windows installed on?
You: I only have it installed on one computer. The only reason it is doing this is because I had it installed on a Virtual PC on another computer awhile ago, but now I want to put this back on the computer it came on
(The Support Person here hears that you (A) had it installed on another computer at one point and (B) hears a term they are completely unfamiliar with, adding to the confusion)
Support: Uhh...How many total computers have you installed Windows on?
You: Just one.
Support: Thank you...
In general, it is safe and legal to kill your children. -- POSIX Programmer's Guide
This doesn't really affect your stand about boycotting Best Buy, but just in case you're not aware, you should know that having your bags searched as you leave Best Buy, or any other store that does that, is a purely voluntary thing. You can politely refuse and just keep walking. They have no legal right to require you to submit to a bag search, and they know it (the guards are trained to understand that). There's an article about it here.