India Rejects One Laptop per Child Program

ex-geek writes "Seems like Negroponte's One Laptop per Child program has been rejected by the Ministry of Human Resource Development of India. Among the objections are concerns about the effect of extensive laptop use on children's health. Better uses for the monies, which would be required to roll out the OLPC project, are also named. Most insightful however is the observation that not one industrial country has so far implemented a similar program for its children, which casts doubt as to what the pedagogical use for notebooks in class really is."

Comments

Passing the buck

[9x320]

If every industrial country is waiting for the others to make the first move, who is going to go first?

Re:Passing the buck

[10sball]

north korea

Re:Passing the buck

[eln]

Nobody has to go first. There are already plenty of schools in this and other industrialized nations that provide laptops for every student. Studies need to be done to determine if those laptops actually help (or perhaps hinder) learning in these schools. It would be silly to spend billions of dollars a year providing every child with a laptop if there are no studies that indicate there is any educational advantage to every child having a laptop.

Also, the concern about health effects may seem silly, but there have been plenty of cases where things that were relatively harmless for adults turn out to have adverse effects on still-developing children. Given this, and given that these children would presumably be using these laptops for many hours a day, asking for studies on this does not seem unreasonable.

Re:Passing the buck

[Spazntwich]

I think they're still working on their "one missile per child" campaign.

Though before that gains any momentum they'll probably need to complete their "one functioning missile" campaign.

Re:Passing the buck

[scaryjohn]

More to the point, several developed countries (like India, actually) are federal, with education handled by the sub-national governments and local entities. So pointing to national governments is a bit misleading. While no U.S. state is planning to give its kids hand-crank powered laptops, Maine is trying to get iBooks into the hands of all its junior high students.

Of course, I'm still skeptical about the usefulness of computers to small children in general, and at students' classroom desks in higher grades.

Re:Passing the buck

[LiquidCoooled]

As with all computer use, I would recommend caution against sitting kids down and using powerpoint* to set them up in life.

Good teaching implies using the computer as a tool rather than as a quick fix, some subjects are meant to be difficult some lessons need to be learnt.
Its exactly the same with calculators, know how to use one but only after you have tried engaging your brain first.

I feel this way after visiting a few secondary schools for my son recently, there are some which place the computer on a pedistal as the fix all, and then there are others (notably the 'poorer' schools) which have teachers being more involved and interactive.

*This is not a microsoft dig, it could equally be open office impress or any other program.

Re:Passing the buck

[voice_of_all_reason]

Also, the concern about health effects may seem silly, but there have been plenty of cases where things that were relatively harmless for adults turn out to have adverse effects on still-developing children.

Like what? Electromagnetic fields? Those have pretty much been proven okay in the last 100 years.

Is India still like Indiana Jones, where they'd flee in superstitious terror from the "sorcery" of electronic tools?

Re:Passing the buck

[Angst Badger]

Studies need to be done to determine if those laptops actually help (or perhaps hinder) learning in these schools.

No kidding. I've watched school districts in the US spend insane amounts of money on computer technology on the basis of blind faith that computers will automagically improve the quality and effectiveness of education. Even if most such programs were not sabotaged from the start by failing to allocate funds to actually train teachers to use them, there is seldom if ever any effort to measure results.

(To be fair, while I was working for a school district, I saw some really creative uses of computers, but these were a) the exception, and b) still not very good uses of money compared to other things that it could have been spent on.)

The other problem that is not often considered at the outset is the maintenance cost. A school district full of computers needs a full-time support staff, which takes away money that could have gone to hiring new teachers and reducing class sizes, and it also requires regular replacement. One-third of the IT budget for the district I worked in was devoted to replacing obsolete machines.

Surprisingly, the best use I saw for computers was reducing the amount of time it took teachers and staff to take attendance and collate grades. That actually did some good because teachers had more time to teach.

Re:Passing the buck

[Senjutsu]

With kids bent over their laptops at school all day, I'd be more concerned about developmental problems in their spines and wrists. And eye problems, depending on screen quality.

But good job on leaping straight to the "brown people must have primitive superstitions" stereotype.

Re:Passing the buck

[Homology]

Is India still like Indiana Jones, where they'd flee in superstitious terror from the "sorcery" of electronic tools?

Seems like you have a good, decent and very solid Kansas education.

Re:Passing the buck

[Homology]

> But good job on leaping straight to the "brown people must have primitive superstitions" stereotype.

The GP is watching too much Fox "News", I guess.

Re:Passing the buck

[porcupine8]

Oh, trust me, there are lots of studies out there, many with conflicting results. Mostly because no educational research is ever 100% controlled - it happens in a real classroom rather than a laboratory, where a million things could be contributing.

One thing that seems pretty clear is that how useful computers are is directly correlated with how much ongoing training the teachers and administrators receive both on using the computers and on integrating them into the curriculum. Getting the administrators on board is one of the most important things, as they tend to set the tone on whether or not the teachers are excited/willing to learn to use the technology. But even in the best-of situation with lots of training for teachers and administrators, what actual results you see from the computers varies and depends a lot on what you're counting as a measure of improvement.

Re:Passing the buck

[drinkypoo]

But good job on leaping straight to the "brown people must have primitive superstitions" stereotype.

And you've done an equally good job on the "utter inability to detect sarcasm from context" thing. Not as bad as that Homology dingleberry though.

Re:Passing the buck

[blugu64]

"Is India still like Indiana Jones, where they'd flee in superstitious terror from the "sorcery" of electronic tools?"

that would explain some of the outsourced code I've seen on thedailtwtf.com

Re:Passing the buck

[chaoticgeek]

I don't know weather or not laptops help the students, however I do know that if a child wants to learn and engages him or her self in the studies then they learn better. I did, a lot of is was because of my parents, mainly my mom, who pushed me to do the best I could in school. So they should try and engage the kids in school before they hand out laptops, and get the parents to push their kids to do well in school too then we would see a great change. Until then the kids who are not pushed to do their best will not use the computers to help themselves and the students who do push themselves to do the best they will use the computers to help themselves learn better, more and faster in school. And those are the ones who graduate from college and persue their dreams instead of working in a dead end factory job in the middle of nowhere...

But I don't see a major campagin to get kids involved in scool and learning so the chance of that happening is slim to none. I for one am glad I had parents like mine who wanted me to do better than what they did. Netier of them got anything above a high school education and they taught me that you have to work hard and learn in school. Maybe that is decent parenting, maybe its just being smart parents, or maybe they want to live off of me when they get old... Who knows, but I'm glad they pushed me and I would love to see more parents push their children to do their best and learn everything they can.

Re:Passing the buck

[kimvette]

I've been around *nervoustick* computers since *tick* age seven *tick* and I turned *tick* out perfectly fine *spasm*.

Re:Passing the buck

[N3wsByt3]

"Also, the concern about health effects may seem silly, but there have been plenty of cases where things that were relatively harmless for adults turn out to have adverse effects on still-developing children."

Actually, almost everything that is harmful to children is also harmful to adults, though perhaps greater quantities are needed to inflict the same damage to the latter, sometimes.

Thus, you choose your words 'relatively harmful' very well. ;-)

Re:Passing the buck

[bitt3n]

As a minister in a far eastern country that shall go unnamed, I am very concerned about the health effects of these western laptops.

Exposing children to toxic chemicals and complicated heavy machinery in sneaker factories and similar industrial environments is regrettably one of the ugly necessities of partaking in the spirit of new enterprise that allows us to join the global community. I believe the expression is that "it is required to break many eggs before one enjoys the omelet."

However, instructing our children in the use of a device that may facilitate the exchange of untempered democratic ideas and other destabilizing counter-cultural principles will make it far more difficult for us to promote the adoption of those attitudes and habits appropriate and indeed necessary to ensuring both the continued well-being of each individual citizen, and that of society in general.

Re:Passing the buck

[saskboy]

"Like what? Electromagnetic fields? Those have pretty much been proven okay in the last 100 years."

I guess you didn't know that male pattern baldness, and impotence didn't exist before wireless telegraphy came along, didn't you?

Re:Passing the buck

[dosius]

Computers in schools are overrated. We need TEACHERS to TEACH. Not to mention the price of maintaining the computers is obscene - especially if you live in a district where the computers are likely to get ripped off, sold for drugs or destroyed.

We don't need more than one computer per classroom - for the teacher to use to do her own job.

-uso.

Re:Passing the buck

[barthrh2]

With kids bent over their laptops at school all day, I'd be more concerned about developmental problems in their spines and wrists.

Or worse, hairy palms from all of the Internet porn.

Re:Passing the buck

[saha]

Is India still like Indiana Jones, where they'd flee in superstitious terror from the "sorcery" of electronic tools?

How insightful of you to speculate the reason Indians would have to reject the laptop, from a 1984 movie about a fictional archaeologist. Since that movie came out I think I have grown quite wary of ignoramus like yourself wondering if Indians eat frozen monkey brains and if Kali worshippers are cultists that practice black magic. Frankly, your comments are ignorant and racist. You sir are without question a bigot. Fortunately, for India the ideology of "intelligent design" hasn't been introduced to the science curriculum. If you're going to be an unexposed and myopic about the other cultures, religions and people around the world I wouldn't go around flaunting it.

Re:Passing the buck

[renjipanicker]

No doubt, inspired by the US government's "One Secret Service Agent per citizen" program? Glasshouses and stones...you know what they say.

Re:Passing the buck

[MadMidnightBomber]

Is India still like Indiana Jones, where they'd flee in superstitious terror from the "sorcery" of electronic tools?

Yes, everything in the world is exactly as portrayed in Hollywood movies. Hope This Helps, etc.

Re:Passing the buck

[voice_of_all_reason]

It's a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke, son

Re:Passing the buck

[prurientknave]

democratic ideas rock!

especially the ideas about blasting to glass, anyone who disagrees with us. If brown people weren't so evil the white man wouldn't have such an onerous bombing burden :'(

Re:Passing the buck

[cpatil]

You really need some lessons. Go check out the CIA pages on India.

Re:Passing the buck

[Anonymovs Coward]

Like what? Electromagnetic fields?

Like how about you read the damn article? It specifically mentions eyesight and back. To which I might add RSI. And what fuckwit moderator modded you "interesting"?

Or is America still like in revolutionary days when few people knew how to read? Oh, I suppose you can read, only nothing longer than a slashdot summary.

Re:Passing the buck

[vivin]

Your ignorance is astounding:

"India: While striving to achieve independence from foreign suppliers, India's ballistic missile programs still benefited from the acquisition of foreign equipment and technology. India sought items for these programs during the reporting period primarily from Russia and Western Europe. New Delhi successfully flight-tested its newest MRBM, the Agni-2, in April 1999 after months of preparations and continued apace with its SRBM program. India continues to pursue the development of nuclear weapons, and its underground nuclear tests in May 1998 were a significant milestone. The acquisition of foreign equipment could benefit New Delhi in its efforts to develop and produce more sophisticated nuclear weapons. India obtained some foreign nuclear-related assistance during the second half of 1999 from a variety of sources worldwide, including in Russia and Western Europe." - "Unclassified Report to Congress on the Acquisition of Technology Relating to Weapons of Mass Destruction and Advanced Conventional Munitions, July 1 Through December 31, 1999," Report released by the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), August 9, 2000."

India and WMD

India uses similar delivery systems for its (indigenously developed) Space Program, which have actually been pretty successful (eg. GSLV).

Chronology of Indian Missile Development
From almost 20 years ago

Re:Passing the buck

[Knutsi]

Greetings from Norway, where also much money is being poured into school computers, but teatchers are old an cannot use them, or teach the kids how to.

A computer is a massivly powerfull thing, yet the suplimentary or primary school material based on computers is close to non-existant. The OLPC project would succees everywhere, incl. the industrialised world, if they had allot of good education software written for the. That's the only way a computer could truly improve education.

Without serious, interactive, exciting and creative educational software, you might was well give the kids a typewrite and a colouring book... pretty much the same thing. An no matter how you look at it, computers will make schools more expensive (initial cost, support, education, price of software etc.).

Best,
. K

Re:Passing the buck

[Andabata]

You're assuming a "as it commonly is used" use of computers in the classroom. That's not what OLPC is about at all. It's not just about putting laptops in schools, is about changing the teaching methods by using them for what computers were made for: programming simulations, controlling systems, etc. Check out http://www.squeakersfilm.org/>this movie and especially http://wiki.laptop.org/index.php/Learning_Learning >Papert's section on OLPC website

Re:Passing the buck

[LiquidCoooled]

The thing is, the school I went to never needed one computer per pupil and I still learnt all those things.
I had use of a computer for technology related lessons but had no need for one during most of the other times.

I still have all my reference books and lesson notes available to me from all my lessons, however the only computer data I have access to from before 1998 is locked away on an Amiga harddrive (I haven't even tried to open it recently) - if this was my schoolwork I would be gutted now because I would have lost so much important data.

Re:Passing the buck

[Tim Browse]

Compare:

If you're going to be an unexposed and myopic about the other cultures, religions and people around the world I wouldn't go around flaunting it.

with:

You sir are without question a bigot.

D'oh!

Re:Passing the buck

[steve_bryan]

Why do so many jump to the conclusion that this laptop is meant as just another tool to be used to further the usual aims of mass public education? Ever consider the possibility it is meant as a means to bypass the customary limits that a student encounters in school? For instance, have you read any of the books by Seymour Papert: "Mindstorms", "The Children's Machine", or "The Connected Family"? Obviously for many people a laptop is mostly a typewriter on steroids. A useful, if banal tool. But what a waste of potential. The idea of putting a laptop in the hands of young students is to reach someone who might learn something more profound when given the opportunity to explore a universal turing machine. At a slightly less exalted level a student might have the chance to engage in activities of creating and building things that can be much more educational than just listening to lecture.

Re:Passing the buck

[Andabata]

Which things? Did you really learn how many different objects, following the same rules, produce complex behaviors (cars and jams, or ants following a trail based on simple rules)? And by learn I don't mean just believing it, I mean really, really understanding it. Look around, think of your colleagues and what they have (and haven't) been able to grasp and how they see the world.

Re:Passing the buck

[McFadden]

Most insightful however is the observation that not one industrial country has so far implemented a similar program for its children, which casts doubt as to what the pedagogical use for notebooks in class really is.

We're quite happy to sit on our fat asses and tell developing countries what's best for them, yet not one of our own countries has decided one laptop per child is what we need.

Actually, it's surprising what you learn about countries you've never been to before. My wife is in India right now, in a tiny remote village somewhere in the vicinity of the Himalayas. Last night she called me..... on Skype!

Re:Passing the buck

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought everyone already knew that India was in Microsofts pocket?

Re:Passing the buck

[Anonymous Coward]

You and cpatil need to figure out the concept of messageboard threads. Note that the post you're replying to originates from a "North Korea" comment . . . .

So I guess it's *your* ignorance that is astounding. :)

Re:Passing the buck

[LiquidCoooled]

Yes actually, I remember spending time in the biology lab with the real ant farms getting taught about group behaviour and navigation which just happened to link in with the lessons about cellular automata and iterative systems in computer studies.

I remember my secondary education tried as much as possible to link lessons together and remember on the whole having good teachers who worked hard to give us a rounded education.

As for needing a laptop to discover the underlying chaotic pulse of the world I call bullshit. Knowledge of patterns doesn't need a computer and recognising the signs of an attractor can be done by anyone looking at the "bigger picture".
Sure, to make pretty graphs and things having a computer handy makes it easier, but its not a requirement.

Just remember this, computers have been around for about 80 years now, smart people have existed throughout history.

Re:Passing the buck

[Andabata]

OK, I'll hand it to you. Let me state your position: computers are just bullshit in education. They're just for drawing nice graphs and powerpoints. There's nothing to be gained in understanding from programming a virtual ant and seeing how the behavior of 100.000 virtual ants compares with the behavior of real ants. You can learn anything just by looking at real ants. You can do the same with real cars, of course, I suppose. Yes, I'm being ironic. That's because I've nothing against learning with real stuff. And with real teachrs. That's the point: you need real people, stuff, and teachers, and the computers can make that a much richer environment. I don't support computers for feeding you information and losing teachers and interactions. I don't think you even tried to skim the references I gave you, but I'll try another one, one final time. Give me the benefit of the doubt: if I provide all this links perhaps there could be something interesting in them: Alan Kay: "Computers, Networks and Education" http://llk.media.mit.edu/courses/readings/alan-kay .pdf

Re:Passing the buck

[CandyMan]

> To be fair, while I was working for a school district, I saw some really creative uses of computers

Care to share some examples?

One that I love is the answer Jimmy Wales gave during the Q+A after a presentation at the CopyFIGHT festival last year in Barcelona: "Maybe kids should not be using Wikipedia for their school work. But they should definitely be discussing in wikipedia talk pages, and even writing wikipedia articles together with their teachers".

Re:Passing the buck

[saha]

What kind of comparison are you trying to draw here? Your reply makes absolutely no sense. My reply to voice_of_all_reason was to his poor choice of Indians portrayed as simple minded superstitious folks. Frankly it is racist and bigoted. So my comment to say he is a bigot fits bill. Take a class in logic sometime and think about what you're saying before reflexively typing comments that don't make any sense. Then again this is Slashdot, I'm hoping for too much.

I'll also add that voice_of_all_reason claims to made his comments as a joke. So I suppose the people he offended by that are supposed to say its okay. Well it doesn't quite work that way.

Re:Passing the buck

[Tim Browse]

Take a class in logic sometime and think about what you're saying before reflexively typing comments that don't make any sense. Then again this is Slashdot, I'm hoping for too much.

So much anger. And reflexively replying without thinking.

The comment was clearly a joke. It was based on a cultural reference to an Indiana Jones film that the poster clearly (from the context) didn't think was an accurate representation of the people involved.

You either missed the joke/ironic cultural reference (read: don't know enough about the culture you're ridiculing, i.e. unexposed and/or myopic), or your own agenda is so strong (read: you are bigoted) that it over-rode any acceptance that the poster could be joking.

Hence my comparison.

I'll also add that voice_of_all_reason claims to made his comments as a joke. So I suppose the people he offended by that are supposed to say its okay. Well it doesn't quite work that way.

The poster clearly doesn't seriously hold such views on the people of India, so why is it offensive? They were essentially saying "Well, it can't be for this reason (i.e. India is backward - this is ludicrous), so why is it?"

But, you know. Whatever.

Re:Passing the buck

[Anonymous Coward]

Get a sense of humor. All this seriousness is killing you.

Or just go back to making bigoted jokes about people in Kansas or Stupid Americans and go along on your ironically merry way.

Re:Passing the buck

[TheRaven64]

Your ignorance is astounding:

So is your inability to read. The grandparent poster was a direct reply to this post which contains the words 'north korea' and no others. You can post as much as you like about your knowledge of India's missile program, flaming someone else in the process, but it still won't have any relevance to North Korea.

Re:Passing the buck

[LiquidCoooled]

Now you are just putting words in my text field, I clearly said I used computers in school and learnt a great deal with them, however I don't like using a computer just because there is one there.
Most things in life need balance and I think we need to keep real experience and learning in its proper place.

As for me not reading your links, what can I say - the first 2 weren't exactly content filled, one was an advert for a dvd and the other had a couple of analogies which whilst being technically correct are over the top.

The link you just gave however made for good reading and based upon the date of release (1991) sounds like the people in my school followed. We linked lesson plans together and used computers where required to expand the knowledge we had gained in other areas (like the city modelling and garden planning) to improve on the learning experience, but nowhere in this did I need a fulltime laptop.

Re:Passing the buck

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be new here.
You'ld have a 5 by now with a good m$ dig.

Re:Passing the buck

[vtcodger]

Actually, there aren't that many schools that provide laptops -- especially not in lower grades. There are a bunch of problems that no one outside the schools considers -- computer left at home, computer stolen, other kids broke the computer, and especially ... computer lost (if kids manage to lose their jackets and gloves when it's -20F -- and they do -- you can imagine what'll happen to laptops). It's not that the problems can't be overcome, but it's a lot of work. It's not clear what the payoff is.

As for studies of computers. Lot's of them. Mixed results, but generally mildly negative. Costs of developing and maintaining curricula are high as are support costs for the hardware. And don't get me started on Windows(especially XP), Office, internet filtering, viruses, malware, etc, etc, etc. Google "River Oaks Ontario" for an experiment in depth in computing in schools with mixed results. Some educational positives, but support costs were reported to be unsustainably high once Apple stopped underwriting them.

Computers have some unquestioned utility in school administration and class materials preparation. Some other uses in schools in the US are probably beneficial. Computers will surely someday be a major element in education. But not in K-8 in the US today. I have no idea how things change in an undeveloped country. Maybe computers would be a blessing. Or maybe the wisest thing that India, Paraguay and Chad could do would be to confiscate anything that looks like a computer at the school's front door.

Re:Passing the buck

[zentinal]

See Also

Re:Passing the buck

[saha]

So much anger. And reflexively replying without thinking.

When you're five years old it may seem witty to deflect back the same criticism back at the person. You've attempted to do the same two more times in your last reply. Cute...if you're five years old, but I assume you're an adult, so that is a rather pathetic attempt on your part. Learn to formulate your own arguments.

The comment was clearly a joke. It was based on a cultural reference to an Indiana Jones film that the poster clearly (from the context) didn't think was an accurate representation of the people involved.

Really? I must have been the only person to miss that ....(sarcasm). It was so clear that there where several other people who also found voice_of_all_reason comments equally offensive and derogatory. Read all the threaded comments from the original parent . Your claim therefore that voice_of_all_reason comments were clearly a joke is completely rubbish. Did voice_of_all_reason use anythings like (joke) or (sarcasm) tags? I don't think he did. Was everyone who read what he wrote know it was obviously a joke. Certainly not. It could go either way and without seeing voice_of_all_reason in person delivering that comment without hearing his/her inflection and body language, one has to go with what the comments are on the page. He/she didn't help the situation by not making it clear that it was a joke. Saying that it was retroactively is just a convenient thing to do when you've already offended people. Was it clear that the comments were a joke based on the context, obviously not for a number of people therefore your claim is baloney

Since you seem to be slow at viewing this from a different perspective, let me put it this way. If someone were to make a joke or sarcastic comment without tags like (joke) or (sarcasm) on a newsgroup or online posting about say.... stereotyping a small religious group for being affluent by being extremely frugal or using the "n" word in relation to people of African descent, then you can damn well sure you're going to get flamed. Retroactively claiming you where joking without being clear about it in the first place won't get you out of trouble.

(read: don't know enough about the culture you're ridiculing, i.e. unexposed and/or myopic)

You're absolutely right (extreme sarcasm). Yes, I must be unexposed and myopic after living in five different countries in four different continents , most of them with several distinct major religions. I can't say I have travelled much...only 29 countries so far (sarcasm). I've only taken five religious classes during my free electives in engineering college from Celtic/Nordic religion and mythology to both ancient and modern Judaism ( 2 classes in Judaism). So yeah, I guess I fit your childish deflected criticism of being unexposed and myopic. You must be far more worldly than I (fill in the tag).

or your own agenda is so strong (read: you are bigoted)

Or perhaps neither of you quite understand that what was said could be construed seriously and offend people. Which is really sad on your part, because you lack that understanding. In slashdot colloquial speak you are an insensitive clod.

Re:Passing the buck

[Tepoztecal]

I don't know if any of you know this but a large portion of children in India have to prostitute themselves in order to make money for food. After boys reach a certain age they are forced to join roving gangs that rob their community in order to survive. If you are a girl then you hide that fact so you can join the gangs to survive or contemplate a lifetime of prostitution with committing suicide actually being an alternative. Imagine if you lived in this squalor, how would a laptop help you besides selling it in order to buy food? These children need teachers and food and medical help as well as protection from predators.

Re:Passing the buck

[ultranova]

Or worse, hairy palms from all of the Internet porn.

Well, if you happen to live on the slopes of Himalaya, having fur will help keep out the frostbite, right ?

Re:Passing the buck

[ultranova]

I've watched school districts in the US spend insane amounts of money on computer technology on the basis of blind faith that computers will automagically improve the quality and effectiveness of education.

They do. The students who couldn't care less about the subject will surf the Web instead of disturbing others. This means that those who want to can learn in peace. Compare this to how some banks put lego blocks to the waiting area to keep the kids busy while their parents conduct their business.

However, the question still remains if it would be more cost-effective to get lego blocks rather than computers to the classroom. Heck, some of the problem kids might actually take up engineering from there !

Re:Passing the buck

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait ... so you're saying India isn't like Indiana Jones?

Re:Passing the buck

[Anonymous Coward]

As much as the Vatican and Opus Dei is run like "The Da Vinci Code"

Re:Passing the buck

[pluggo]

The thing is that there aren't enough teachers to be able to spend enough time with each student. A properly programmed computer (this is key) could provide very helpful stimulation while the teacher moves from student to student. Also, this could encourage a lot of exploration and curiosity versus simply learning what is currently being taught in school.

This is not to say, of course, that simply throwing computers at children makes them learn to do anything better (besides dodge :-P).

Re:Passing the buck

[Tim Browse]

You're right. I bow to your superior intellect, reasoning, name-calling, higher number of countries visited, higher number of religious classes taken, and unilateral authority to insist on mandatory application of the W3C ratified standard 'joke' and 'sarcasm' tags.

Sheesh.

"I bet I've visited way more countries than you, and taken way more religious classes!"

And I'm the five year old?

Re:Passing the buck

[hydkat]

O come on! You have no idea what your talking about. Its ridiculous to spend that kind of money on laptops when the same amount could put a kid thru atleast six months of decent schooling.

Re:Passing the buck

[saha]

You're right. I bow to your superior intellect, reasoning, name-calling, higher number of countries visited, higher number of religious classes taken, and unilateral authority to insist on mandatory application of the W3C ratified standard 'joke' and 'sarcasm' tags.

Coming back to to point, which you have artfully veered away from. You jumped into the middle of a topic where the comments of voice_of_all_reason offended me and several other people. The threads clearly show that there were several people who felt that way and it was not obvious that the comments were a joke or intended as such. You then proceed to immediately attack me by calling me a bigot and myopic/unexposed without provocation or good reason. In fact those accusations are so ridiculously so far off they would be amusing to the people who know me. If you're going to stick your head out to defend lost causes like voice_of_all_reason, expect to get hit. You are the one who started the adolescent name calling directly to me and using a rather immature ruse of deflecting the same criticism back at me, without know anything about me. Therefore I don't sympathize with your insincere and sarcastic comments, worst of all you still don't get it that offended people's cultures and races is just not acceptable do you? Retroactively claiming comments people found offensive were intended to be a joke doesn't mean much either and I've given you plenty of examples of that in my previous reply. If you still don't get it, I don't have much hope for you.

Re:Passing the buck

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of id_ot are you? You must be some paki or missionary motherf*cker. Go f*ck yourself with a broomhandle you assh*le. Don't make up sh*t about people you don't know. Better yet, post your home address so I can come over and edumacate your dumb a*ss.

Re:Passing the buck

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't you post your background/ethnicity Tim so we can all enjoy some jokes at your expense?

Come on funny boy. Or should it be fannyboy. You like a little sausage in your gravy spout don't you?

Re:Passing the buck

[Tim Browse]

Why don't you post your background/ethnicity Tim so we can all enjoy some jokes at your expense?

I'm British, so as a slashdot reader, I already enjoy a steady stream of stereotypical/'racist' comments about the country I live in. I don't think I've ever managed to really take offence though - I usually assume people are joking, and try not come across as incredibly self-righteous and/or indignant.

But, you know, do your worst. I'm ready. Because frankly...

Come on funny boy. Or should it be fannyboy. You like a little sausage in your gravy spout don't you?

...I don't think your worst is something I'm going to get upset about.

Re:Passing the buck

[Anonymous Coward]

Like it up the a*ss too much lately? I know you haven't reached your teens yet so you're still angry about those "feelings" you have of other guys. It's okay, embrace yourself and everything will be alright.

Overdoing the math.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Among the objections are concerns about the effect of extensive laptop use on children's health. "

I feel the same way about calculators.

How about

[bacterial_pus]

working towards a 'food and shelter for every child' program first

Re:How about

[Anonymous Coward]

The obvious comment in every case is "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day... "

But it's deeper than that. By giving free shelter or food, you destroy the shelter and food providing industries in the countries. The textile industries in many "third world" countries have been wiped out by cheap or free second hand clothing from the west.

If you get people educated and doing something then the contribute valuably and generate a real economy. Have a look at some of the work of the charity Intermediate Technology to understand how this can happen.

Now it isn't obvious that one laptop per child is the best way to do this, but it also isn't obvious that it isn't a good way to do it. The only way to find out is to do the experiment. The fact that India someone in India rejects it so loudly and publically before it's even been tried suggests less than the best motivation.

Perhaps a little helping hand from Microsoft has been around here?

Re:How about

[qortra]

How about not? See, we could give the huge population of India food until the rest of the world runs out of money, and it wouldn't help that much. The children need a way to earn their own food, or else nothing will change in the long run. A starving child who can program a computer or manage a business or teach history won't be starving for long, especially in a place like India that is just starting to be recognized as a potential high-level worker pool.

Re:How about

[OmegaBlac]

working towards a 'food and shelter for every child' program first

And how do you know that they don't already have such programs (smaller scale) in place already? And let us be realistic here. Not even first-world countries can provide food and shelter for every single child within their borders so how likely would developing countries be able to do so? The cycle of poor people depending on their governments and interal/external organizations to help feed them will continue unless people can gain an education. And as the first-world moves further into the information age, the developing countries need to play catchup; these laptops would help them narrow the growing divide between the first-world and the developing countries.

Re:How about

[bacterial_pus]

Being from the same reigon, I've seen those kids and it's not a pretty sight I Googled kids starving in India and here is just one link with an excerpt. See what UNICEF is doing http://www.ahrchk.net/pr/mainfile.php/2005mr/143 "(KOLKATA, India, March 23, 2005) Some 500 people marched to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) office in Kolkata on Wednesday to vent their anger over the international agency's neglect of thousands of children starving in West Bengal.................. five-year-old boy was reported to have eaten dirt before he died in Murshidabad in February. In another case, about 28 families in Anahar in the South Dinajpur district have been suffering in extreme conditions with three children already reported dead and 15 other people dying" Let me know

Re:How about

[Clyde]

Actually, it would take very little money to feed the hungry of the world. The money that third world countries pay out ever year in debt maintenance is greater than the cost of feeding the hungry.

http://www.jubileeusa.org/jubilee.cgi?path=/learn_ more&page=why_drop_the_debt.html

Re:How about

[qortra]

Firstly, it isn't like debt payments drop off the face of the earth. They go to other corporations or countries who in turn feed their poor or employ people who can feed their families with the money.

Secondly, I'll give you 1 guess concerning how countries get out of debt....
....
....
They educate their citizens to generate capital!

Re:How about

[Anonymous Coward]

By giving free shelter or food, you destroy the shelter and food providing industries in the countries.

Parent AC speaks truth. If we continue to just hand out free food the economy at the low end will never start. What is needed isn't free food, it's someone to teach them to farm their land to the best of its ability, and if anything must be free, then giving them a supply of crop seed to get started. And these have to be real seeds, not the GM "terminator" variety which simply makes the farmers dependent on the generosity of the biotech firms to feed them next year. Throw in some scrap iron for enterprising blacksmiths to turn into plowshares to barter with the farmers for a share of food, and they hit the ground running with trade.

Once everyone has the ability to be fed, then someone'll have to sort out the lawlessness (not so much in India, but many other places) that leads to regional warlords who would simply seize the crops and leave the farmers to starve. This is step two, and even now when we ship free food and medical supplies to these places, theres a good chance that most of that gets seized as well. Once that's been taken care of, then the real work begins.

Once everyone has the ability to be fed and gets fed, we'll start to see the beginnings of real trade again. Mostly local bartering at first, but once the country currency becomes worth something useful, perhaps someone will be willing to truck goods from one city to another instead of growing food for themselves, knowing that the colored bits of paper they receive will permit them to buy a goat and some chickens for their family back home. Once goods start moving outside of the locality, demand will appear for gasoline, trucks, tires, and so on. Radios, TVs, and other sources of news from beyond the next town over will be wanted as well. If the government does not collapse back into corruption and lawlessness, then roads should be getting built and/or repaired at this point. Or perhaps the locals will innovate offroad cargo vehicles that don't require government-built roads. Whether the government wants to or not, the locals' children will learn how to run the family farm, if not how to operate trucks, or repair trucks, or build trucks. Or radios, or TVs, and so on.

Overall the problem is that people from all parts of the economic spectrum believe that someone waves a magic wand and BAM! an economy appears. They're still scratching their heads over post-Katrina New Orleans wondering why workers did not magically appear out of thin air to be paid minimum wage to build houses, then disappear back into thin air at night because they couldn't afford to live in the houses that people wanted them to build. Or why stores didn't reopen right away, staffed by magic dragons and selling milk to the tooth fairy. They simply don't understand that the "global economy" snuffs out any attempt for a fledgeling local economy to form, whether its the free clothes and food coming in, or corporations building call centers and luring people away from their farms for the promise of riches, only to leave them in the dirt later when they find another country to do it cheaper. Either the world must keep its hands off once it's set in motion (until it can stand on its own), or the world must run the entire local economy itself (essentially forever), there is no successful middle ground.

Re:How about

[drinkypoo]

Okay, I flat out refuse to listen to any website that tells me to do something because the bible says so, but another thing that whole debt thing misses is that if people started announcing they wouldn't pay back their debts, then we would see global economic collapse.

However, the money is the smallest part of the cost. The real issue is that giving people food only helps them in the short run. While that is valuable and sometimes necessary, it is more necessary to address long-term problems. What happens when the world is dependent on free food, and something happens that makes it impossible to maintain the distribution system? We're talking diebacks that make every tragedy and holocaust in human history put together look like a fucking cocktail party.

Re:How about

[bacterial_pus]

Thanks Clyde. I'd love to see this money being used to repay debt.

Re:How about

[pherthyl]

The side effect of feeding the hungry is that it effectively destroys their entire local food production business. The farmers who previously supported themselves selling food can't compete with free and are suddenly themselves dependant on handouts to survive.

Do some reading on how the flood of donated clothes from the western world destroyed the textile industry in many areas of Africa. Handouts are a terrible long term solution.

Re:How about

[kimvette]

Don't be $illy, it'$ ju$t not profitable enough.

Re:How about

[Lemmy Caution]

Don't apply the same model to food that you apply to shelter. Your core insight, that well-meaning infusions of charity can have unexpected and unpleasant consequences, is well taken. But not all markets work the same: housing is sui generis (particularly when it is land and location that is the cost-driver.)

Also, education is not a panacea. You can over-educate a population past its economic opportunities and create a variety of problems, from the widescale loss of the best-and-brightest to other countries, to a population of resentful, overeducated people who are only able to find jobs in the lower ranks of the agricultural and industrial sectors (this is much of what happened in parts of Latin America - the Sendero Luminoso of Peru was largely officered by a generation of well-educated poor youth who found no job opportunities awaiting for them after their much-vaunted education was finished.)

England did not have the most widely educated population back when it was the richest, most powerful nation in the world. I think you might find the correlation between education and prosperity, historically, to have a number of suprises.

Re:How about

[rickb928]

Teaching the children english (and their native language, of course).

Providing a decent breakfast and lunch. let it be purchased locally.

Make your population literate and they will find opportunity themselves.

And yes, the U.S. could take this advice and change things. We are slowly failing our children.

-rick

Re:How about

[qortra]

You can give all the anecdotal evidence that you want, and it won't change the facts. These places are destitute because their population is uneducated and unable to generate income.

Suppose for the following the survival rate for children is 20% (i.e. horrific).

YOUR IDEAL SCENARIO: you can somehow convince enough people in various charitable organizations to feed the entire child population until they grow up to become unproductive, uneducated (but perhaps self-sustaining) people with mediocre quality of life. Then, when the next generation of children comes along, you're going to have to try to convince the same people (or perhaps different people) again to "think of the children" by giving money. Except this time there will be more children because the previous generation all survived. And somewhere along the lines, people will stop giving money and 80% of the population will die, except that the population by then will be enormous, and that same 80% death rate will represent 100 times the number of people.

NEGROPONTE's LESS-THAN-IDEAL YET REALISTIC SCENARIO: that same money that was going to be used to feed the children is used to educated the children (buy the laptops which in turn give them access to knowledge). 80% of the population dies out. The remaining 20% become well-educated productive members of a society which is now suddenly educated. Business are attracted, people generate income by becoming employees, people use that money to start businesses or their own, and the next generation receives the benefits of their education. This process of course happens much more slowly than one would assume from that description, but it happens nevertheless. 80% of this generations children died (which is truly tragic), but in the long run, the region is better off.

Of course, I think that Negroponte would suggest that people keep the basics-based charity flowing to those kinds of places during the OLPC phase so that we can avoid the pointless loss of life. Regardless, the OLPC money would mean that there wouldn't have to be charity money flowing into those places in a generation or two; My point is that the basics without the education is almost completely pointless in the long run.

Re:How about

[megaditto]

... a potential high-level worker pool.

You have no idea that an outsourced Indian 'Mike' you talk on the phone is from a royal caste, literally. Only the cream of the cream of the elite get to qualify for the outsourced jobs. There is no hope for the rest!

No laptops, no business. 60% of grownups in India cannot read

In a country whose No. 1 public health goal is halfing public defecation by 2012 (a real problem since over 20% of the population are infected by hookworms: http://www.publichealth.pitt.edu/supercourse/Super coursePPT/18011-19001/18811.ppt )

No, giving them laptops is not the answer. Providing children with reading lessons, antibiotics, electricity, and lightbulbs is the first step.

Re:How about

[PCM2]

No laptops, no business. 60% of grownups in India cannot read

Exaggeration. According to the CIA World Factbook, about 60 percent of adults in India can read. The figure weighs disproportionately in favor of men -- 70 percent are literate. In women the figure is less than 50 percent, but still not as low as the 40 percent you suggest.

Re:How about

[qortra]

In a country whose No. 1 public health goal is halfing public defecation by 2012 (a real problem since over 20% of the population are infected by hookworms:

Ahh, I'm glad you cleared that up I guess the "effect of extensive laptop use on children's health" is just a secondary concern (I'm not actually aiming my sarcasm at you here; I'm just curious how the Indian government could care about E.M. radiation when there are much larger concerns).

Providing children with reading lessons...

I bet you'll never guess what the internet can do these days. Not only can it display words like "dog", but it can even show pictures of dogs next to them! (and here, my sarcasm is actually aimed at you)

The laptops can really be an essential part of even a developing childs education. Certainly, electricity is needed to power them (I'll grant you that), but I would take the laptops in a heartbeat above lightbulbs. Children can sleep when it's dark, and do their work during the day outdoors (preferably in areas that are not poo-adjacent.. but the laptop will teach them how to find those places).

Re:How about

[megaditto]

No contradiction:

The link refers to people over 15 that can read a little.

This 'factbook' masks the real problem, which is that 30%+ of the population is under 15 (according to your very link), most of whom are illeterate (and die off before they ever learn).

Re:How about

[megaditto]

The question is, could the money be better spend doing something else to improve the situation? Spending $100 per laptop per 400,000,000 children (in India alone!) every 4 years? Or spending same money for printing books, for example? Or setting up a library of educational videos in each village?

You are talking US$ 10,000,000,000 per year you are asking India to donate to the Chinese semiconductor manufacturers.

Re:How about

[PCM2]

The link refers to people over 15 that can read a little. This 'factbook' masks the real problem, which is that 30%+ of the population is under 15 (according to your very link), most of whom are illeterate (and die off before they ever learn).

"People over the age of 15" is more liberal than my own definition of "grownups." If you were not in fact referring to grownups then you should have not used that word.

Also, please show me a reference at the CIA site where it defines literacy as "can read a little." It says quite plainly on the link that literacy is defined as "can read and write," so you're already leaving one part out, and the definition does not include your subjective qualifier.

There was no statistic on that page about the literacy rate of children under 15, so your statement about youth literacy is unsupported. I would expect, however, that the literacy rate of children under 15 is considerably lower than that of adults -- as is the case the entire world over.

Finally, your comment that most children under 15 "die off before they ever learn," is also rubbish. The average life expectancy of the entire population of India (according to the same data) is roughly 65. That means they don't "die off" until well after they reach adulthood, at which time they presumably join the roughly 70 percent of grownups who are literate.

Your hand-wringing and sympathy for the people of India is touching, and India does face many social and economic challenges, but I'm afraid your portrayal is a distortion of the facts.

Re:How about

[hevenor]

How about teaching a starving child how to farm, hunt, fish, live sustainably? The western world forces their notion that industrialization and education will solve the problems of the third world but it sure doesn't solve the problems of the way the SUV nation lives.

From the sounds of things you've read Atlas Shrugged and are against alms to the poor on the stance that people need to pull their weight. I agree...but I also feel that managing a business is the last thing that any starving person needs to know. Maybe if we take a billion dollars and buy 10million of these laptops we could calculate just long our planet will survive given our rate of consumption and the acceleration of our consumption in the newly 'developing' areas like China and India?

Re:How about

[megaditto]

the majority of babies die before they learn to read:

each year, 24,000,000 illiterate (by definition) babies are born
survive to 16: 22,000,000
learn to 'read and write': 40% of 21,000,000

65% of the newborns will die illiterate!

If you accept the 'fact'book's estimate of 59% adult literacy (which they take from the Indian govt estimate, which inflates those to encourage investment), you will get about 45% of children dying before ever learning how to read/write.

Can you see why the majority of babies die before they learn to read is correct?

Re:How about

[LordLucless]

And if for some reason the western world dropped the debts to the poorer countries, those countries would of course divert those funds into feeding their populace. The politicians who, by and large, aren't and never have been at the starvation line would never use those monies to fund their own pet projects rather than the citizens of their country, would they? If you're going to go down that road, it'd be better to campaign for western countries to use the income from foreign debts to provide support to those poor countries. That way at least the money would be spent on aid, although you'll still end up with many poorer nations addicted to international welfare, and never having any impetus to actually develop and stand on their own.

Re:How about

[lumber_13]

If anyone of you don't know literacy rate amongst children when they turn 15 is almost 95% in India. Also the gross figure right now, for people surviving before 16 is like 98 %. Your figures were probably true in 1991 sensus, there have been 16 years after that.

Re:How about

[vgaphil]

Mod parent up, that's exactly what I was going to say.

Want to really help a child in Asia?
Go here -> http://www.gfa.org/gfa/bridgeofhope

Re:How about

[jamesshuang]

Perhaps Microsoft has already lent a "helping" hand :-p

Anyone know about the Microsoft infiltration of India? :-p

Re:How about

[megaditto]

thanks for the info

Re:How about

[1u3hr]

"effect of extensive laptop use on children's health" is just a secondary concern (I'm not actually aiming my sarcasm at you here; I'm just curious how the Indian government could care about E.M. radiation when there are much larger concerns).

Their concern was not radiation, but eyesight -- squinting at a screen for hours a day; back strain, maybe RSI from typing. These are quite valid; there are bound to be obsessive users, whether coding or gaming.

Re:How about

[1u3hr]

How about teaching a starving child how to farm, hunt, fish, live sustainably?

Farming? India is terribly overcrowded, many familes have no land. Hunting? Great idea. You'd be in competition with the poachers to wipe out the remaining wildlife. Fishing? Many fisheries are exhausted, mostly scooped up by large foreign trawlers.

Re:How about

[gcx1]

As an Indian I found many of the comments as either mildly amusing or completely ignorant. A vast mojority of school kids in India (at least 2/3rds of them IMHO) don't have access to decent schools. School buildings are in bad shape (sometimes a few dilapidated rooms qualify for school buildings here), student-to-teacher ratio is horrendous, qualified and motivated teachers are a rare species, poor can't even buy books, mid-day meals are often of low quality etc... Some states do provide free text books, but, many parents are too poor to buy even notebooks, pencils and other required stationery. The self-centered middle and upper classes send their children to relatively better equipped private schools (which are still highly ill-equipped compared to standards in developed nations). They have never cared or pressed the governement to improve the quality of primary education. It's sort of a new "caste system". The poor and the rural kids have to go to ill-equipped government schools while the well to do feel "superior" by sending their children to private schools.

Given these conditions, what would a laptop do for a poor child? Not much, IMHO. It is better to spend the tax payer money on improving the school facilities and raising the overall quality. There is a dire need for bringing about uniform educational standards across different classes.

I lived is US for more than a decade. I saw school districts spending unnecessarily on computers and other technology. This is the other extreme where possessing latest technology is often equated with better learning!! No wonder so many high school grads in US can't even solve simple arithmetic problems without the use of calculators or computers.

Re:How about

[Whiney Mac Fanboy]

The side effect of feeding the hungry is that it effectively destroys their entire local food production business. The farmers who previously supported themselves selling food can't compete with free and are suddenly themselves dependant on handouts to survive.

Depends on how its done. Aid agencies such as oxfam have recognised this for a while - and rather than importing food to troubled areas, try to either give locals money to buy food or buy from local farmers.

Government agencies don't particularly like that however, as they'd rather spend their aid budget within their own country, helping their own farmers (its amazing how much of the average first world nation's "aid" budget will be spent within that country).

Re:How about

[PaneerParantha]

As an Indian I found many of the comments as either mildly amusing or completely ignorant. Aise hee hain yeh log. Don't worry.

Re:How about

[Anonymous Coward]

India is hardly poor (12th richest in the world by PPP-adjusted GDP and 3rd largest arms buyer). It's been self-sufficient in food since the '50s or so. There's lots of wealth, but the per capita income is low in rural areas.

Re:How about

[Herby Sagues]

And the debt surely came out of thin air. See, I live in one of those countries in debt. And we smoked the money. They gave us money, and we wasted it. So we asked for more money. And we again wasted it. And that's been going on for decades. Now we say that if we didn't have to pay the debt, we would be able to elliminate hunger and poverty. But that's not true. If we didn't have a debt, we would get one. And the extra cash in the interim would go to some of the same crooks that wasted it the first time (or their sons).

Re:How about

[epee1221]

How about teaching a starving child how to farm, hunt, fish, live sustainably?

No way. India can only produce as much food as it does because it makes good use its arable land -- much better use than is made in the U.S.A.

I also feel that managing a business is the last thing that any starving person needs to know

Not only that, but who do you think would hire a manager whose only qualification is a U.N.-operated management training program?

Re:How about

[PCM2]

Again, you're making up statistics. According to CIA statistics, the literacy rate in India is not 40 percent, it is 60 percent. I think they oughtta know better than you. You claim that these statistics are based on what the Indian government reports and that the Indian government is making them up to make itself look good, but you provide not substantiation for this statement. 45 percent is not "the majority." Bottom line, if you want to stay willfully pig-ignorant, I'm not going to bother trying to educate you. Think what makes you feel good, and don't get mad when a healthy, literate Indian takes your next job.

Re:How about

[hydkat]

erm...so your basically asking for good old dark age famine...

Re:How about

[Dilaudid]

it would take very little money to feed the hungry of the world

Fine. Write a fucking cheque. While you're at it talk to Bono, Bob Geldof, Kanye West and all the rest of the bullshitters to do the same.
Or if you prefer to see it as "cancelling debt" - why doesn't your bank just cancel it's debt to you, and take your savings, and use that to pay the interest? Or are debts owed to you different to debts owed to other people?

MS counter move

[bstadil]

Gates have been courting India for quite a while. This move is a political move nothing to do with the merits of the program.

I really don't care about India but would love to see Bangladesh adopt the OLPC program. They have thanks to Yusun and his Microloan program almost eradicated poverty so they seem to be a more innovative people. Remember 10- 15 years ago you almost always heardf about the plight of Bangladesh? Heard anything lately? I rest my case

Re:MS counter move

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks to blogs, I only hear about opinions which directly match my political leanings. Therefore I have not learned anything about this so-called "Bangled Desh."

Re:MS counter move

[alphakappa]

"Remember 10- 15 years ago you almost always heardf about the plight of Bangladesh? Heard anything lately?"
I don't know what world you are living in, my friend, but Bangladesh still has ~35% of the population below the poverty line. I'm not dissing Bangladesh, which is a lovely country, but your statement which is quite ignorant.

Re:MS counter move

[drinkypoo]

I don't know what world you are living in, my friend, but Bangladesh still has ~35% of the population below the poverty line. I'm not dissing Bangladesh, which is a lovely country, but your statement which is quite ignorant.

Now, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I do want to point out the fallacy of referring to a "poverty line". Here in California, I've spent more time living below the Federal poverty line than I have spent living above it, yet I have usually had a car, always had a place to live, always been well-fed and adequately clothed.

Poverty is a relative term, and I'm sure the poverty line there relates much more closely to a reasonable definition of poverty than that which we enjoy in the US.

Re:MS counter move

[alphakappa]

I understand, but the truth about India/Bangladesh is that the poverty line as defined by the government really is a poverty line i.e. it's barely enough to survive.

Re:MS counter move

[ClamIAm]

Bangladesh still has ~35% of the population below the poverty line.

Even if this statistic is accurate, it means nothing. Here is the definition of poverty line from the source that you yourself linked to:

National estimates of the percentage of the population falling below the poverty line are based on surveys of sub-groups, with the results weighted by the number of people in each group. Definitions of poverty vary considerably among nations. For example, rich nations generally employ more generous standards of poverty than poor nations.

Worse, even if we have a perfect definition of "poverty line", you're still drawing a huge, overarching conclusion based on one point of data.

Oh, and an actual look at the Economy of Bangladesh shows a much different picture.

Re:MS counter move

[ZepHead]

"Bang Le Desh" is what an Indian dude does when his car radio starts conking out.

Re:MS counter move

[Anonymous Coward]

[...]They have thanks to Yusun and his Microloan program almost eradicated poverty [...]

Um, no. Having spent the majority of last summer living out of a hotel in Dhaka and travelling all over that city, I beg to differ. If those people aren't poverty-stricken, then no one on this god-forsaken planet is.

Remember 10- 15 years ago you almost always heardf about the plight of Bangladesh? Heard anything lately? I rest my case

... on foundations of wet sand, apparently -- which last was the reason I had to go to Bangladesh last year. Just because the media isn't reporting on somewhere doesn't mean there isn't a problem; it's just not catastrophic enough. Heard anything about Darfur in the news lately? Nigeria? What about Rwanda? It must be just peachy there now because I haven't heard anything from there either ...

Some Good Points

[Shadow Wrought]

The Director makes some good points, but I think there is also a sense that no country wants to be seen as needing the program. I wonder if the program itself could be seen as an affront to the pride of many of the target nations.

Maybe the pledge to buy two laptops to donate to get one free really isn't such a bad thing after all. Governments have a difficult time tturning away things that are free.

Re:Some Good Points

[toppk]

I wonder if this guy is probably just worried about offending microsoft who has lots of jobs in india, or if india still has the impression that they aren't 3rd world. india has only 60% literacy, which is quite bad. https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos /in.html

Eventually they will consider that a bad thing and do something about it.

Re:Some Good Points

[rmckeethen]

Agreed. India has nuclear power -- and, of course, nuclear weapons -- plus indigenous satellite launch capabilities, the largest film industry anywhere (a.k.a. Bollywood), the fourth largest economy on Earth measured in purchasing power, the second largest global population and, to top it all off, India is the home to one of the world's oldest pre-industrial civilizations and is the origin of not one but *two* of the world's major religions, Hinduism and Buddism. Somehow, I don't think the Indian government is going to be keen to accept a program that seems adapted to third-world nations, not regional superpowers struggling for first-world status and recognition. Hell -- just based on how much software development is going on in the country, the $100 laptop ought to be a sure-fire winner, so it's hard to justify India's turning down the program for reasons other than politics and national pride.

Might prove for some commerciall success though

[Goalie_Ca]

I know if they came out with a simple cheap and durable laptop with software and hardware that just worked and lasted a decade I would buy one for sure. We're all so used to buying new computers and components and constantly updating and patching software. A lot of wasted money, pollution, resources, power, and time. It would be nice if a company put time into something to get it right. So far the closest one is apple and their old g3 and g4 lines. The new intel ones have a lot of maturing to do yet IMO.

btw.. the tinymail project is making good progress for OLPC and it'll be nice to see the fruits of that labour on my desktop :D

Re:Might prove for some commerciall success though

[Ant P.]

We're all so used to buying new computers and components and constantly updating and patching software. A lot of wasted money, pollution, resources, power, and time.

I've done the exact opposite: put in a slower, older GFX card, slower RAM and downclocked the CPU. I don't really notice the loss, even with games, and it's saving on the electricity bill.

Health reasons?

[Neil Blender]

What, is he afraid that India will turn into a country where everyone has a really muscular right arm?

Re:Health reasons?

[RoffleTheWaffle]

You mean from charging the thing, or...?

Re:Health reasons?

[mobby_6kl]

> What, is he afraid that India will turn into a country where everyone has a really muscular right arm?

No, he's afraid that most children who'll get one will die of starvation/exhaustion from trying to rotate (or is it pull now?) the generator handle.

Re:Health reasons?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they are afraid the radiation from the laptops will make some of the children sterile and reduce their population down to a few hundred billion.

Re:Health reasons?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you! Come again!

We should do this for ourselfs.

[Anonymous Coward]

We cann't do this for ourself first? Our education system sucks.
There needs to be an education revolution!
First we need the information infrastructure to handle the video.

Reduce the population first

[Anonymous Coward]

India has too many people already. I recommend a "One Child Per Laptop" program! :)

Nigeria accepts OLPC

[Gord]

Worth pointing out that according to this, brief, article Nigeria has ordered 1 million of these laptops at $100 a throw.

Re:Nigeria accepts OLPC

[Anonymous Crowhead]

Great. 419 scam emails will jump 100 fold.

Re:Nigeria accepts OLPC

[Spazntwich]

They probably see it as an investment in what is currently their third to fifth largest national industry.

Re:Nigeria accepts OLPC

[Anonymous Coward]

The next generation of scammers will know their stuff then. :D

Seriously though, having read the avarage geek response to laptop, I bet they could raise a shitload by selling them for $200 and using the profits to educate the children instead. Might be a better plan.

Who doesn't want weird and sturdy little laptop?

Re:Nigeria accepts OLPC

[Anonymous Coward]

Great, all that's missing now is a "One Bank Account Per Child" program for North America and Western Europe.

Re:Nigeria accepts OLPC

[shri]

Thank you for pointing that out. Given the rumored corruption of the government employees out there, I'd like to see how many of these laptops actually do end up in the hands of kids.

Re:Nigeria accepts OLPC

[fyoder]

Nigeria has ordered 1 million of these laptops at $100 a throw.

Please forward the details of your bank account plus a processing fee so that we may deposit the hundred million dollars to your account.

Re:Nigeria accepts OLPC

[vidarh]

The corruption levels are not just rumoured, they are fact. Nigerians themselves regularly vote the country as the worlds most corrupt in the Transparency International surveys. However the current government does appear to be doing things to clamp down on it - a lot of people, including high ranking government officials, have been jailed for it.

It's not hard to see why there's so much corruption there, though. A Nigerian cabinet minister gets a salary of $6000 a year... Makes accepting the odd bribe kind of tempting... Heck, I could probably afford to "own" half a dozen high level officials if I wanted...

I'd half expect Obasanjo (the president) to arrange for aid organizations to distribute the laptops (or at least be involved in it) rather than leave it up to his own government exactly because of the corruption levels.

Re:Nigeria accepts OLPC

[shri]

That was my attempt at being politically correct -- to avoid a public lynching.

Don't get me started on how many IP ranges we need to block to keep the 419ers out of our sites.

Re:Nigeria accepts OLPC

[Anonymous Coward]

waste of resources. I can buy a powerful second hand PC and hook it to TV for $150-200. $100million could have gone to other educational purposes.

Two words

[twofidyKidd]

"...which casts doubt as to what the pedagogical use for notebooks in class really is."

Sex Ed.

Re:Two words

[Capt'n Hector]

Not funny. Insightful. Do you know how much ignorance there is in developing nations about STDs, birth control, pregnancy, etc?

Re:Two words

[Nimey]

Do you know how much ignorance there is in developed nations about same?

Ssshhh... don't let on about birth control education, or the Catholic Church will condemn the program.

Re:Two words

[Moofie]

My church had an excellent sex ed program. Methodists are cool.

Re:Two words

[Jherek Carnelian]

Not funny. Insightful. Do you know how much ignorance there is in developing nations about STDs, birth control, pregnancy, etc?

Which may be one of the reasons countries reject these laptops. Regressive idealogies, particularly the ones that think women are only good for babies tend to reject that kind of knowledge. I know a girl who used to teach that stuff to women in the villages at the southern end of the philippines and the men there were not happy to have her around (she's a "radical feminist" by /modern/ filipino standards which would make her about average if she lived in the in US).

Beyond reproductive health and self-dominion, there are lots of areas of knowledge that many societies would rather not give their children (or adults) access to. Like a pastie-covered boobie at a sporting event.

Re:Two words

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you know how much ignorance there is in developing nations about STDs, birth control, pregnancy, etc?

Actually I do. I am a supporter of EngenderHealth, a nonprofit organization that focuses on this very topic in Bangladesh and other developing countries.

Re:Two words

[devcrypt]

Do you have any evidence that there are any significant number of people that think that "women are only good for babies" in the way many people in regressive countries (like the US) clearly think that men are only good for work?
Or is this one of the "blame the victim" excuses used to deny men basic rights?

Why don't you think about the fact that your ideology tells you that men are not only not exploited but actually privileged yet you know of a case where a girl was sent to teach third world women and no men were sent to teach third world men?
And judging by public information on similar 'aid' schemes, she was almost certainly sent to teach them an ideology of hate and fear, to pander to their existing prejudices and chauvinism and generally massage their already bloated female egos.
No wonder the men were "not happy". What does this tell you about the attitude to men she was teaching?

How would you feel like it if you were say, black ,and some hate group sent a white to teach the white people in your village that blacks were 'biologically less valuable' or 'naturally violent' (both tenets of the feminist ideology regarding men). Do you think you too might be "not happy"?

Re:Two words

[DrVomact]

And how, precisely, will the $100 laptops further sex education among third world kids? Are you going to hand out a free DVD with sex education materials along with the laptops? If so, how would that be more effective than a teacher standing in front of a classroom presenting similar material? Or are you--horrors--talking about connecting them to the internet and telling them to Google "sex"?

When the Indian agency said there is a "conceptual vacuum in which the scheme is being propagated" they were being both perceptive and exceedingly kind. A more pungent translation would be, "This is a really dumb-ass idea conceived by some conceited rich do-gooders who don't know squat about education, and who are pushing it because it makes them feel all warm and fuzzy."

How about donating $100 to every teacher in India? How about using the money to train more teachers? I may be a geek, but even I know that not every problem can be solved by a gadget.

Re:Two words

[Jherek Carnelian]

(both tenets of the feminist ideology regarding men)

You've got a real stick up yer rear, dontchya? It sure must comfort your pride to believe such things.

Do you have any evidence that there are any significant number of people that think that "women are only good for babies"

Nope. Because they tend to think they are good for housework too.

Or is this one of the "blame the victim" excuses used to deny men basic rights?

Of course it is, what else could it be? Teaching women that douching after sex does not prevent pregnancy and how to effectively say no to sex when the man won't use a condom is clearly denying men their basic right to sex on demand.

And judging by public information on similar 'aid' schemes, she was almost certainly sent to teach them an ideology of hate and fear, to pander to their existing prejudices and chauvinism and generally massage their already bloated female egos.

Have you ever met a filipina? As rule, the culture of marianisma teaches them to have no ego, especially out in the provinces.

No wonder the men were "not happy". What does this tell you about the attitude to men she was teaching?

That they were used to getting their way without question and that nobody likes the loss of power that comes from having their authority questioned, especially when that authority is regularly abused.

Why don't you think about the fact that your ideology tells you that men are not only not exploited but actually privileged yet you know of a case where a girl was sent to teach third world women and no men were sent to teach third world men?

I had to save this bellyshaker for last. You are complaining that the underprivileged get something that the overprivileged do not? Oh how unfair, the overprivileged are being denied a privilege!

Re:Two words

[devcrypt]

You've got a real stick up yer rear, dontchya? It sure must comfort your pride to believe such things.

An ad hominem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem attack, how ... big of you.
You do realise, of course, that as soon as you resort to personal insults you are admitting you have no better reply?
I take it from your lack of response you can't answer the point I made, which was: "How would you feel like it if you were say, black ,and some hate group sent a white to teach the white people in your village that blacks were 'biologically less valuable' or 'naturally violent' (both tenets of the feminist ideology regarding men)." ?

Nope. Because they tend to think they are good for housework too.

This makes no sense. Thats one non-sequitur and one ad hominem, you must be going through the list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy.
So I take it then you don't have any evidence that there are any significant number of people that think that "women are only good for babies" in the way many people in regressive countries (like the US) clearly think that men are only good for work.
By the way, making an accusation against a person (in this case all the phillipines, if not the third world) without any evidence to back that up is normally considered 'regressive' itself.

Or is this one of the "blame the victim" excuses used to deny men basic rights? Of course it is, what else could it be? Teaching women that douching after sex does not prevent pregnancy and how to effectively say no to sex when the man won't use a condom is clearly denying men their basic right to sex on demand.

Lets see, an ad hominem, a non-sequitur and now a strawman, yep, you're going through the list all right.
For the benefit of the hard of thinking I will point out that nobody suggested teaching women to say no to sex or to douche was wrong let alone "denying men their basic rights" and nobody suggested that any man had any right to "sex on demand".
The fact that you are implying I think these things is insulting and offensive. I don't expect any apology from you, but I note how desperately you avoid the point
The way you are using these strawman 'arguments' is exactly the way you used the implication that anti-sexists all think that "women are only good for babies"
In other words, you are just proving my point for me, thanks!

Have you ever met a filipina? As rule, the culture of marianisma teaches them to have no ego, especially out in the provinces.

Yes I have met Filipino women, and no, I don't make universal generalizations about people based on their nationality any more than I do on their sex. Chauvinism and bigotry unfortunately are universal
Lets see, thats an ad hominem, a non-sequitur, a strawman and now an appeal to personal experience.

No wonder the men were "not happy". What does this tell you about the attitude to men she was teaching? That they were used to getting their way without question and that nobody likes the loss of power that comes from having their authority questioned, especially when that authority is regularly abused.

Lets see, thats an ad hominem, a non-sequitur, a strawman, an appeal to personal experience and now a circular argument. Bingo! Do I win anything?
Interesting how when men are angry about something some people always assume this can't possibly be a valid reaction, with no evidence to back that up (even when challenged). Yet when women are angry those same people usually claim that proves they are exploited.
Since you didn't seem to have an answer the first time I will ask you again: "How would you like it if you were say, black ,and some hate group sent a white to teach the white people in your village

Re:Two words

[Jherek Carnelian]

Big latin words.

I apologize.

Really I do.

For baiting you.

It's just too tempting to tweak people who are so clearly off balance.

A little push always sends your type spinning and spitting.

I should behave better.

Maybe next time.

Re:Two words

[devcrypt]

Big latin words.

I am sorry, I will try to use something closer to your intellectual level next time. Please tell me how many syllables is your limit.

For baiting you.

You were baiting me? Do you normally screech "You've got a real stick up yer rear, dontchya?" at someone you're 'baiting'? Wow! Then I'd hate to see what you'd say if someone for instance ... I dunno ... questioned some deeply held prejudice, say.

It's just too tempting to tweak people who are so clearly off balance.
A little push always sends your type spinning and spitting.

Well, quite. For suitable small values of 'your type'.
I will leave it to others to judge which is more 'spitting and spinning', my comments, like:

Do you have any evidence that there are any significant number of people that think that "women are only good for babies" in the way many people in regressive countries (like the US) clearly think that men are only good for work?

or yours, like:

You've got a real stick up yer rear, dontchya? It sure must comfort your pride to believe such things ... [men] that think women are only good for babies... [men] tend to think they are good for housework ....[men are] used to getting their way without question ... denying men their basic right to sex on demand ... I had to save this bellyshaker for last ... off balance ... your type

Actually I owe you an apology, I claimed you didn't answer my original question, which was:

Or is this one of the "blame the victim" excuses used to deny men basic rights?

But you actually replied:

Oh how unfair, the overprivileged are being denied a privilege!

Which, of course, is using your assumption that men are overprivileged as an excuse for denying them basic rights (equal access to education is not a 'privilege'), exactly as I suggested. So you did answer the question after all! Thanks again!

Since you have ignored all of the points I have made, I will add a mini-summary of this discussion. If there is anything you disagree with, please correct, preferably without name-calling.

- - - - - -

Jherek Carnelian posted a comment gloating about men being discriminated against in the Phillipines, and implying they were 'asking for it' by being 'regressive'.

I replied asking 3 questions (below)

Jherek Carnelian responded but failed to answer a single question. He did make a large number of insulting comments, reflecting an offensive stereotype of men as the ones refusing to use condoms (actually it is usually women) and "used to getting their way without question".
He also claimed that I believed that "sex on demand" is a "basic right".
But unfortunately he failed to give any evidence for any of this.

I responded by repeating two of the questions and asking for an apology for the insults.
Jherek Carnelian responded with even more name-calling.

This leaves the following questions unanswered:

Does [Carnelian] have any evidence that there are any significant number of people that think that "women are only good for babies" in the way many people in regressive countries (like the US) clearly think that men are only good for work?

He has now had 3 opportunities to give this evidence and has failed to each time, so the answer is obviously 'no'.
...

is this [the idea that men are over privileged] one of the "blame the victim" excuses used to deny men basic rights?

Carnelian has indirectly admitted this by using it as exactly that excuse, but has failed to answer it directly despite being challenged twice on it. 'silence infers assent' so

Re:Two words

[Jherek Carnelian]

Woohoo! You are a fool. If you disagree, please spend another hour writing sophistry in a vain attempt to prove that your slashdot dick is bigger than mine!

Going to Africa next week.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm headed off to Africa next week to help with running water and AIDS education. Dropping off an IPOD or Open Office isn't going to give these kids clean water or stop the spread of a deadly virus.

Sorry folks but yes, it's a good idea but there are far more basic needs that must be addressed FIRST.

Re:Going to Africa next week.

[Senzei]

Sorry folks but yes, it's a good idea but there are far more basic needs that must be addressed FIRST.

Yep, there are a lot of people with really basic needs. Too bad there are not more educated members of society with the ability to communicate those needs to each other and organize some aid. It would be awesome if someone could help give an education boost to those countries that are above starvation but not yet affluent enough to really provide a lot of help. Oh wait...

Re:Going to Africa next week.

[Anonymous Coward]

So those who are above starving are going to connect to Myspace to tell others that there are people starving 30 miles away?

I wish I had the faith in humanity that you do. While someone has said "teach a man to fish", he still needs a pole and that pole is not a laptop.

Re:Going to Africa next week.

[Anonymous Coward]

And simply clean water and marginally smaller chance of getting AIDS won't help the kids do anything expect stay poor. Even without AIDS and with clean water they will have a miserable life as it stands now.

It's quite a simple equation, education may lead x people to die due to lack of basic needs however it will result in the country as a whole reaching some standard of living y years sooner. Basic needs however will lead to x less people dying, z increase in population and an extra y years needed for the country to get out of poverty.

In other words education is an attempt to think long term and accept short term sacrifices, while simply basic needs is an attempt to blindly try to fix short term problems and ignore the long term ones. It's akin to introducing modern medicine without infrastructure or birth control education. The later one doesn't work very well as an area can't advance that way.

Re:Going to Africa next week.

[Senzei]

So those who are above starving are going to connect to Myspace to tell others that there are people starving 30 miles away?

Most are, but some will actually get out in help. I doubt that the numbers will be much different from how they are in first world countries. That said, provided the helpers:non-helpers ratio stays constant, adding to the population of people capable of helping still increases the number of people doing so. Considering that this is being largely funded by geeks who probably would not have spent their money on donating food and medicine it seems like a decent project.

While someone has said "teach a man to fish", he still needs a pole and that pole is not a laptop.

fishing::learning as fishing pole::laptop. Although a laptop is obviously not required for learning, given some of the other constraints in the areas where it will be going it is better than most other tools.

Industrial Countries have Textbooks

[xzvf]

Industrial countries have and can pay for nearly new textbooks to give to each child. Most parents in industialized countries have computers their children can use. OLPC replaces books and gives the entire family access to information.

Re:Industrial Countries have Textbooks

[Anonymous Coward]

Forget laptops, many Indian kids don't have a school to go to, and even if they do, those schools are lousy (Needless to say, there are some great schools but they are private and those kids definitely have access to computers).

On the other hand, it is not a bad idea to spend that money on secondary education. But then it is only an idea, the money rarely if ever reaches the deserving kids. It won't happen until politicians find a way to make money by educating kids.

Re:Industrial Countries have Textbooks

[monopole]

Um, not quite. Most school textbooks are in poor repair and antiquated in the US. Secondly present textbook publishing is volume driven, with the content often dictated by Texas and other large red state markets.
The use of an OLPC would not only allow for up to date textbooks but would allow more enlightened states to avoid present least common denominator content.

Re:Industrial Countries have Textbooks

[PCM2]

Forget laptops, many Indian kids don't have a school to go to, and even if they do, those schools are lousy

Sounds like a good argument in favor of distance learning -- or self-directed study based on electronic lesson plans, maybe.

Re:Industrial Countries have Textbooks

[interiot]

Or Wikibooks.

Re:Industrial Countries have Textbooks

[Cadallin]

And why is that true? For the same reasons other people have pointed as criticism of third world countries: because of political graft and general uselessness. If the United States diverted even a TINY portion of what it spends on the military to education, the quality of education in this country could be phenomenal. The educational system (at all levels) in the United States is fucked, and it is largely the fault of the american people.

Re:Industrial Countries have Textbooks

[Anonymous Coward]

Concisely said. Similar thoughts expanded:

Children in industrialized countries are often seen carrying large backpacks of school materials. They have school buses or mass transit to get to school. In rural areas of poorer countries, school buses (or even year-round drivable roads) may not be available. A laptop may permit children to take more materials home to study, or access more materials from home if the network is available.

A networked computer enables distance learning in ways textbooks do not, so learners in areas that cannot attract the teachers they want may be able to take some classes remotely. In industrialized countries, some children have parents who drive them to remote opportunities.

In industrial countries, children have access to school and town libraries, but such libraries that may not be accessible to children locally in poorer or more dangerous regions.

In industrial countries, colorful textbooks are a comparatively small expense when compared to teachers' salaries. I expect a child in an industrial country uses more than $100 worth of text books and reading books over the years of compulsory education, even taking into account that textbooks are reused for several years. Textbooks are easier to read than current laptop screens, so they are still worth the expense in industrial countries. (Medical students carry references in electronic form, so industrial countries are not keeping books everywhere.)

Schools and homes in humid industrialized countries can afford to have dehumidifiers to help keep textbooks from molding and rotting. Kids in poor humid countries can be taught to clean their textbooks, but it does add to the wear and tear so books may not last as long. Many children are more attracted to and eager to learn from clean and colorful pages than torn, moldy, smelly, faded ones. Computers aren't made from materials that mold, and the screen remains colorful and untorn (though it may get scratches, say from sandy fingers).

Re:Industrial Countries have Textbooks

[DrVomact]

No, you're confusing what might possibly be a good idea with reality: they're selling laptops, not laptops with textbooks on DVD. (Do these things even have a DVD reader?). $100 laptops and DVDs would be considerably cheaper than a bunch of textbooks for each child. Of course, selecting the textbooks to digitize would take some actual thought, hard work, and knowledge of the language and culture in which the material will be distributed. That's beyond the ken of those guys at MIT.

On the day that Nigeria buys 1 million of these ..

[Anonymous Coward]

"not one industrial country has so far implemented a similar program for its children"

and look at how the next generation of children is turning out now. Dumb, brainwashed fat lazy droids and consumers for the most part, unless the parents had the money to give them a decent education.

First world kids these days can use computers, yes. For the internet, and for games. How many of them use them for educational purposes? Sweet FA, that's how many. A useful tool for education has been ignored, why? Maybe it wasn't in some corporation's best interests that they were used - replacing textbooks, teaching children to think, to reason, to use their brains, to not be sheep. Can't trust the teachers to do this, they're overworked, under-provisioned and they've lost the will to make a difference a long time ago.

It may be a case of self-defeat.

[Futurepower(R)]

If you've been to India and you know something about the history of the people there, you know they are very self-defeating.

For years the rich and powerful in India prevented outside influence. This slowed India's development.

--
U.S. Government violence encourages other violence.

Re:It may be a case of self-defeat.

[Tx]

I know little about India, but what I've read recently indicates that not much has changed in that regard. The current tech boom in India, unlike the industrial booms that fuelled the growth of most of the "tiger economies", apparently does not have much "trickle down" effect to the (particularly rural) poor, and is pretty much only benefitting a small segment of society. Shame really, but maybe the tech boom will eventually lead to the kind of growth needed to really benefit the poor, even if it doesn't benefit them much directly.

Re:It may be a case of self-defeat.

[drinkypoo]

The current tech boom in India, unlike the industrial booms that fuelled the growth of most of the "tiger economies", apparently does not have much "trickle down" effect to the (particularly rural) poor

I'll say the same thing about that lack of "trickle down" effect that I said about Reagan's... "TRICKLE DOWN MY ASS." I didn't even mean to say something that funny the first time... But there's a reason it's called trickle down and not flow down. Also, keep in mind what even your plumber knows... shit rolls downhill.

Re:It may be a case of self-defeat.

[Anonymous Coward]

Trickle down is a far more realistic economic theory than the bubble up welfare doctrine left wing nutcases adhere to.

Re:It may be a case of self-defeat.

[mukund]

For years the rich and powerful in India prevented outside influence. This slowed India's development.

Forget the rich and powerful: Indians have an unforgettable lesson in history. Besides, self-reliance is not a bad thing, or a self-defeating thing. Indians are very patriotic and proud of their country, and its accomplishments.

Re:It may be a case of self-defeat.

[ClamIAm]

Yeah, because foreign investment is always good for the people. Just look at those saints at the IMF and the World Bank. /sarcasm

Re:It may be a case of self-defeat.

[The Cydonian]

There's only one very simple thing to understand about India, and that it is big. You might think US or China is big, but compared to the challenges that India presents, they're probably a size M.

Look at it this way. One of the more prominent Tiger economies, Singapore, needed twenty-five years to improve its per-capita income. This is for a country with a population of four million. Now look at India. In 1991, we had the largest concentration of economically-improverished people the world has ever seen (and indeed, if you listen to more jingo-istic voices, the world will ever see), a cool 250+ million.

So you see, the scales are completely different; this isn't about replicating the Asian tech boom, this is about rising from that 1991 morass.

A Solution in Search of a Problem

[Anonymous Coward]

A solution that is more cost effective than "one notebook per child" (ONPC) and that is already widely implemented is "many desktop computers per school" (MDCPS).

Consider the cost effectiveness. Suppose that an elementary school has 500 students in the 1st grade. Over the course of 6 years, the school district must spend $300,000 under the ONPC plan. Presumably, the school has 5 grade levels, and once a student receives a notebook in the 1st grade, she carries the notebook with her throughout the 5 grade levels.

Under the MDCPS plan, the elementary school spends $100 on an older second-hand desktop computer. The school district puts 1000 computers in a computer lab for the whole school. 1000 computers is a lot of computers for a school with 2500 students. The school then spends $100,000 in total for the equipment.

Why spend $300,000 (over 6 years) when $100,000 will suffice?

Most schools already have a computer lab.

In other words, the ONPC is a solution in search of a non-existent problem. The only thing that the ONPC plan provides but that the MDCPS plan does to have is 24-hour access to a computer. However, most normal people do not spend 24 hours on a computer.

Here, normal people is, by definition, anyone who does not participate in SlashDot.

Re:A Solution in Search of a Problem

[WindBourne]

Of course, you seem to want to foget the fact that this is designed to replace the books, not just computers.

Not mutually exclusive

[StefanJ]

There is no reason not to simultaneously provide medical aid, food aid, aid to repair infrastructure, and etcetera, and computers. That is a phony dichotomy.

One of the big failings of aid and development programs in the past has been a lack of appropriateness; clueless big projects which do little or nothing to help.

It is possible that the One-Laptop-Per-Child project is one of these clueless projects. It could, however, end up as a sort of force multiplier, a source of intelligence (in the "information" sense of the word) and a form of feedback that would let aid organizations know what is really needed and where.

Re:Not mutually exclusive

[Oligonicella]

"It could, however, ..."

Gee. A billion dollar could.

Passing the flash cards.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Also, the concern about health effects may seem silly, but there have been plenty of cases where things that were relatively harmless for adults turn out to have adverse effects on still-developing children."

The move to educate babies before they've left the womb.

Perceived Threat

[nurb432]

I bet they only saw it as a threat, people importing something to their country, other then cash.

Sort of like 'outsourcing' but backwards. Cant have that, might upset the balance of money flow.

Kids? who cares about the kids, unless we can sell them for a profit.

Several experiments in the US

[theCat]

Over the years, a few US states and many individual school districts have experimented with one-student-one-computer, to general positive results. It's not without its detractors, of course, and I suspect that lately these programs have to a degree fallen under the wheels of the "teach toward the test" canflagration now sweeping the nation.

I think anyone who says "feed them first, then give them a computer" misses the point that if all you do is ever feed people and then move on, that's as far as they get. I get the impression that while most people living in poverty will happily accept a meal, they will likewise fight hard and loudly to better their condition even at the risk of someone going without a meal in the process. You don't have to be a rich Western geek to understand that filling your belly today doesn't guarantee a full belly tomorrow, and food aid is notorious for drying up once a current crisis is abated.

These poor people need a leg-up, and they need it now. The emerging information market will forget they even exist if they don't learn how to interact with it on its own terms. Out of sight is out of mind, and out of mind is quickly dead and forgotten.

Re:Several experiments in the US

[Anonymous Coward]

To summarize your article:

Another rich white kid feeling liberal guilt speaks deridingly and with self-imposed authority about the best way to elevate the poor helpless folk to an digital utopia.

Re:Several experiments in the US

[Reality Master 101]

Over the years, a few US states and many individual school districts have experimented with one-student-one-computer, to general positive results

Care to link to these positive results? I've only seen studies that show how overall useless, if not negative, computers are in the classroom, especially when you give them to students. They get broken easily, they're generally used in non-educational ways, and they're a big distraction. I doubt you can find some clear, unambiguous gains for students with laptops.

Re:Several experiments in the US

[rmerry72]

I think anyone who says "feed them first, then give them a computer" misses the point that if all you do is ever feed people and then move on, that's as far as they get.

So give them farming equipment. Or fishing rods. Seeds, cattle, feed. Give them something to help them feed themselves. Teach them how to dig wells - or move their villages closer to the water. Give them those second hand US textbooks so that they can learn. Give them books, pens, paper, and most importantly teachers and well trained staff to pass on that knowledge and feed their imagination.

How's a $100 toy going to give them a leg-up when their entire economy is stalled and their survival a day-to-day question mark?

Re:Several experiments in the US

[loquacious d]

The Alaska Association of School Boards is implementing a 1-1 laptop program, based on a similar successful program in Maine (which I believe has just gotten its funding renewed). From the executive summary of Maine's two-year retrospective report:

In summary, the evidence collected for this evaluation indicates that a large majority of Maine's middle schools have successfully implemented the one-to-one laptop program, and there is already substantial self-reported evidence that student learning has increased and improved. Additional research needs to be conducted in the coming years to document and understand the long-term impacts of the laptop initiative on teachers and teaching, students and learning, and on schools.

The report notes that there likely needs to be much more professional development and integration of technology into curricula, but it seems that even in its nascent stages the 1-1 program has helped keep students interested in and proactive about their learning, and improved the quality of their work.

One neat thing about technology in schools is that it lets you do completely new kinds of schoolwork. A new kind of project that many of my English-teaching acquaintances are starting to like is the fake-novel-movie-adaptation-trailer, or artsy-literature-inspired-music-video. Going outside the bounds of the traditional two-page book report or reading journal really helps students think differently and more deeply about the subject (especially for students not compatible with the text-based US school system). Film also really lends itself to literary tropes like symbolism, foreshadowing, and irony. This kind of thinking is just not possible (or at least very difficult) without prevalent access to technology. I've heard anecdotally that music students love GarageBand for recording state honor band/choir audition tapes, or just for practicing in general (recording yourself is notoriously one of the best ways to figure out all the myriad ways you suck). And the sheer amount of good information and media available on the internet is rapidly rivaling even the best-equipped public school libraries.

Obviously the $100 laptop isn't going to be a great video editing machine (though, if you can do it on an Amiga...), but even the basic functions of word processing and Internet capability (the Wikipedia, for chrissake! how great would the world be if everyone had the Wikipedia?) have the capability to dramatically improve the baseline quality of education for developing populations.

From my own experience, I have been lucky enough to use computers since I began school in the mid-80s, and I feel that they shaped my development in a very positive way. Computers are fantastic tools for teaching critical thinking, reading comprehension, model-forming and abstraction, mathematical concepts (especially geometry), and with the internet, efficient internalization of data from multiple sources. David Chalmers and Andy Clark have argued that external resources, when properly utilized, can effectively become part of our cognitive process. By teaching children to take advantage of the astounding power and resources that computers make available to them, we do them a far greater service than cramming multiplication tables and D'Nelian handwriting exercises down their throats for 180 days a year from the age of 5 to 13.

After all, people should be generalists, and computers are the generalist's tool. What would we humans be without tools? Shivering, unathletic apes. $100 is cheap for a tool that

Re:Several experiments in the US

[Liebe Rult]

Yeah. Good teachers are much harder to come by it seems than good writing utensils, books, or even laptops it seems. Or let me put it this way, without teachers that are actually honest, respectful and love to teach (and are good at it, too) the best books or laptops are useless. With a good teacher however, kids can learn a lot - even with less "learning materials".

Re:Several experiments in the US

[Alomex]

BS. Most studies have shown no benefit whatsoever from giving every kid a computer.

Re:Several experiments in the US

[Bastian]

Over the years, a few US states and many individual school districts have experimented with one-student-one-computer, to general positive results. It's not without its detractors, of course, and I suspect that lately these programs have to a degree fallen under the wheels of the "teach toward the test" canflagration now sweeping the nation.

As a former student of a school with a one-student-one-computer program, I'd like to point out that I'm not convinced by the positive results people are reporting. When you spend God-only-knows-how-much-money and muck around with kids' educations with a program like this, admitting you screwed up is just about the dumbest thing a person could possibly do. I can't speak for anyone else, but my high school really screwed up with that idea. That didn't stop the administrators from bragging and bragging and bragging as if these laptops had turned everyone into a genius child. (Rather than just being one more distraction.)

The part of this whole computers-in-the-classroom thing that nobody seems to be getting is that a computer is not a solution. A computer is a tool. I place people who wave the computers in the class banner all the time in the same mental category as people who are convinced that $PROGRAMMING_LANGUAGE is a gift from God and perfect for every situation.

If we want to fix up our schools, we should start by reviewing our crufty old educational plan that hasn't been revised for decades and basically ignores all major research on how people learn. Once we have a new plan, we can go about figuring out how to implement it. I'm sure that computers will be the best way to implement some details of the plan, but they should be used only for those things, and if it turns out that there's a better way to do something else (lectures, for example, are almost guaranteed to suck if PowerPoint is involved), then they should be avoided.

But stuff like the OLPC program seem to work from the assumption that computers are this magic bullet that will instantly improve education - through some hand-wavy magic computron field, maybe?

I agree, these people need a leg-up. I just worry that exporting this educational cargo cult we've been constructing for the past few years to countries that already have even more problems with education than us has more to do with tripping them into the mud than giving them a leg up.

Re:Several experiments in the US

[baffo]

Film also really lends itself to literary tropes like symbolism, foreshadowing, and irony. This kind of thinking is just not possible (or at least very difficult) without prevalent access to technology.

Yes, and everybody knows that symbolism, foreshadowing and irony are completely impossible without a big, electronic, heavy-duty, class-wide technological base. Those poor bastards in ancient Greece were only thinking that they were using rhetorical devices: in fact, irony and sarcasm became possible only recently, with the advent of the Internet.

Particularly the psychological effects...

[GillBates0]

Also, the concern about health effects may seem silly, but there have been plenty of cases where things that were relatively harmless for adults turn out to have adverse effects on still-developing children. Given this, and given that these children would presumably be using these laptops for many hours a day, asking for studies on this does not seem unreasonable.

FTA: "Both physical and psychological effects of children's intensive exposure to the computer implicit in OLPC are worrisome, to say the least.

The psychological aspect seems to be more important and worrisome, IMHO. The things developing children interact with are known to cause a long-standing effect on their psychological development - particularly creativity, analytical skills and imagination. Most people (and geeks) including me can relate to how Legos had a +ve impact on their mental development as kids and how the newer "specialized lego sets" hamper this development by being too restrictive. The same can be said for many other articles/games that kids are exposed to in their developing ears.

I would venture to say that extended interaction with a particular GUI/software/interface could have a negative impact on development of these mental faculties. I'm not saying that it will, but it is quite likely that it will hamper/restrict the child to think only along a certain way, and it is quite reasonable to prevent a large-scale project such as this before adequate medical studies have been done.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[drinkypoo]

I would venture to say that extended interaction with a particular GUI/software/interface could have a negative impact on development of these mental faculties.

Riiiight, because all of us who grew up with computers are so mentally developmentally retarded it's a wonder we can tie our shoes.

As for the medical studies, keep in mind that these computers' greatest benefit would be to kids who can't even go to school, connecting them to information and learning materials. Would you rather have a problem with carpal, or be utterly uneducated? The answer will be different for different people, I admit, but education is the only way out of where India is getting itself. History tells us that educated nations have lower birth rates and that is going to be more than desirable in India very soon.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[lawpoop]

"The things developing children interact with are known to cause a long-standing effect on their psychological development - particularly creativity, analytical skills and imagination."

I remember going over this in psych 101 and even the author of our textbook, Peter Gray seemed skeptical. What is the criteria by which we measure the things children interact with? Does a toddler who only has cardboard boxes to play with grow up stupider than one who has plastic puzzles in primary colors? IIRC, Gray wondered if an inner city child who had no toys, but interacted with extended family in the house and watched cars go by each day was in any less stimulating an environment than a kid who had nintendo or plastic blocks. Is there any objective measurement? The child who interacts with adults is arguably in a more stimluating environment. Understanding, predicting, and manipulating adult minds arguably takes more mental faculties than doing the same with blocks.

When I was a boy, I remember a stick being variously a rifle, a magical staff, a metal sword, a light saber, a spear, even a spaceship. Are my analytical skills impoverished because I ran around in the woods and played with sticks instead of playing the living room with shiny, plastic transformers? I remember being bored to tears by He-Man and G.I. Joe figures that required no imagination -- everything they did was pre-determined. I prefered playing with leaves in puddles or making figures out of mud or clay.

I did *want* those toys that other kids had -- but when I got them, I certainly couldn't play with them. They were much to boring. They just sat on the shelf as models. That's really what they are.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[Belial6]

"Are my analytical skills impoverished because I ran around in the woods and played with sticks instead of playing the living room with shiny, plastic transformers?"

Given the statement:

"I remember being bored to tears by He-Man and G.I. Joe figures that required no imagination -- everything they did was pre-determined."

and

"I did *want* those toys that other kids had -- but when I got them, I certainly couldn't play with them. They were much to boring. They just sat on the shelf as models. That's really what they are."

I'm going to have to say yes.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[lawpoop]

As an almost 30-year-old, I now clearly understand the power of marketing, materialism and peer pressure. As a child, I would have given almost anything to have the toys I saw on commercials and that all the cool kids played with at school. However, when I actually got my hands on them, I found out that they were just as boring as all of the other toys that I had relegated to goodwill. But wait! There is a new cartoon series with cool new robots! And the toys come with laser swords! If only I could get my hands on *these* toys, I would be forever entertained and happy, and never want for anything else in life.

This is a life lesson, not some logic puzzle. Certainly you must be speaking facetiously.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[tritium6]

As long as we are randomly spouting "facts" about the damages to creativity inherent in using an interface, I'm going to point out that my artistic creativity has been seriously hampered by being forced to convey my written thoughts in a series of pre-determined archaic "letters". If I had been able to create my own words and letters, think of how much better my art skills would have been. Lets break down all conventions! Interfaces only work to constrain and limit communications.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[c_forq]

these computers' greatest benefit would be to kids who can't even go to school, connecting them to information and learning materials.

But how do you teach those students to read and use the thing? If they don't have the infrastructure available for education they aren't going to have the infrastructure for training and distribution. If it isn't an infrastructure problem keeping the kid from school I doubt you'll have any luck with them using this device for educational purposes.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[Belial6]

No, your logic must be hindered if you can possibly come to the conclusion that an action figure (doll if you will) has all of it's actions predefined. It shows a distinct lack of imagination, and poor reasoning skills.

I may think I'm really smart, but I have no illusions that make me think a 30-year-old who is incapable of accomplishing a task that I easily handled at 8, has a fully functional mind.

Or, were you just being pretentious by implying that those who like toys that are mass manufactured are somehow not as good as you? You wouldn't be one of those people would you?

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[Homology]

> Riiiight, because all of us who grew up with computers are so mentally developmentally retarded it's a wonder we can tie our shoes.

Was that sarcasm, or do you speak of personal experience ;-) Essensially
substituting the teacher with computer programs of dubious pedagogical
value is not particulary helpful for good learning. Computers can be
a good supplement, if used wisely at the discretion of a qualified teacher.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[ClamIAm]

Um, right.

So because the GP at ten years old didn't possess the life experience and mental framework to rise above pervasive marketing, peer pressure, and peer envy, he's obviously an idiot. And oh no, he changed his mind about something! He's weak too!

Remember kids: snarky, cynical posts are always right, and if you disagree, you're stupid.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[Belial6]

No, its because "because the GP at" 30 "years old didn't possess the life experience and mental framework to rise above pervasive marketing, peer pressure, and peer envy, he's obviously an idiot."

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[servognome]

Does a toddler who only has cardboard boxes to play with grow up stupider than one who has plastic puzzles in primary colors?

I don't think it's about smarter/stupider, its about experience. A child growing up in extreme poverty who has to forage to survive, will be "smarter" when it comes to finding food than a child who grew up being fed by parents.
When it comes to teaching similar material (eg math), technology's only affect is motivational. It doesn't matter if the child is solving problems from a chalkboard, workbook, or a computer monitor; the fundamental information and required thinking is the same.
A more interesting question is what is the minimal level of exposure does it take for a child to be familiar with certain skills, as well, what is the maximum level of exposure for effective learning? At some point there is diminishing returns when it comes to learning, from both interest of the child, and information they are able to absorb.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[ClamIAm]

Playing Mad Libs with a post does not an argument make. Better luck next time.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[Anonymous Coward]

check it out

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[Belial6]

Go back and read the GP. He at 30 believes that action figures have only predetermined uses. You claimed that because he believed that at 8 he isn't an idiot. Well, my response was that he didn't just believe it at 8. He believes it at 30. You see the real problem is that the GP tried to say that if the toy is corporate manufactured, it cannot be used in any way not predetermined by the corp. overlords. He implied that playing with sticks and puddles are inherently better. This is certainly pretentious, and if he believes it, he certainly has limited mental capabilities.

The question now is, did you get confused by the thread, or do you believe that a 30 year old of normal intelligence can honestly believe that no unapproved games can be played with action figures?

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[lawpoop]

All I'm saying is that there was less imaginative possibility with a robot action figure than with a plain ol' stick. The more ambiguous and plain the object, the more scenarios I could fit it in to. If you have a castle playset, you are going to be playing castle most of the time. If you decide that the castle is actually a space station, you have to overlook the castley features like bricks and turrets to see the space station. However, the cardboard refridgerator box has no scneario-specific features to ignore -- just possibility as far as the mind's eye can see.

The action figure's realm of expression is smaller than a stick's. The robot could be an evil villian in his hideout, or he could be a good guy on his way to saving the galaxy. However, one thing he will *not* be doing is breakdancing, because *his legs just don't move like that*. He can only do a stilted walk. However, because the stick has no features that are going to contradict the impositions of your imagination, you are going to have an easier time playing a variety of scenarios with the stick than with the robot action figure.

It's like the difference between writting fan fiction and creating your own universe. There is simply a greater realm of possibility when you have blank pages. You don't have to follow the rules and

And like I said earlier, I *did* have mass-manufactured toys. At the time I wanted them very badly, but upon reflection I can see that I had much more fun with things like sticks and boxes than I ever did with any action figure. I like action figures and still have some to this day, but they certainly aren't a fountain of imaginative play.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[multipartmixed]

Yeah.

The OP obviously never had any Barbies to go with his GI Joes.

'cause, I gotta tell ya, I'd be one shocked person if I found out that Mattel intended me to play some of the games I played with mine.

Hell, some of the GI Joes can even be made to masturbate.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[Belial6]

I understand your point of view. My point of view is that you seem to have an extreamly limited imagination if yo believe that. You say

"the cardboard refridgerator box has no scneario-specific features to ignore"

In this you are absolutly wrong. You have to overcome the scenerio-specific feature that is is a box designed to hold a refriderator. You seem to be able to cope with that. Why can you not cope with ignoring that the robots legs don't bend in the middle. Maybe you could expand yourself if the first thing you did when you picked up an action figure is to pretend that it is a stick. Whamo! You now have an action figure with the exact same potential as a stick.

"There is simply a greater realm of possibility when you have blank pages."

This myth, worded in many different ways is just plain silly. The entire premise of that idea requires not only there to be a hard physical limit to imagination, but that limit must also be within a humans grasp. I'm not buying it.

"You don't have to follow the rules"

You know, you can make new rules. In high school we used to play Risk. When we had too many players, we would just add more boards. This wasn't in the rules, but we just used our imagination to move past what the corp. overlords told us. At times we would have up to thee boards and 15 players.

"I like action figures and still have some to this day, but they certainly aren't a fountain of imaginative play."

That is your limitation. Not the toys.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[Belial6]

Ahh... those were the days... G.I. Joe and Barbie made to the same scale....

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[Anonymous Coward]

When I was a boy, I remember a stick being variously a rifle, a magical staff, a metal sword, a light saber, a spear, even a spaceship. Are my analytical skills impoverished because I ran around in the woods and played with sticks instead of playing the living room with shiny, plastic transformers?

I'd say your creativity and imagination are actually better, not impoverished. This is the whole point — playing with sticks and the like and using your imagination actually enhances your skills, and dumbed-down "don't-bother-to-think-just-watch-this-ooh-shiney" leaves you worse off. I can easily ascribe my reading habit and interest in maths to the fact that we didn't have a TV at home until I was nine years old or so (we never felt a need to). Those in America may not understand this because no one's without a TV, but I seriously think children listening to stories would be spending their time much better than watching TV all the time and killing off their attention span. (The US compensates for this by having a good (relatively speaking) education system where children are made to (at least occasionally) think, unlike our "memorise-this-and-regurgitate-it-in-the-exam" system.) But I guess in a country where living with one's parents is actually regarded as an "uncool" thing, there are no huge families with grandmothers and half-a-dozen aunts from whom a child could get to hear stories.
I'm also from India, BTW, where more families have a TV than children going to a decent school.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[faolan_devyn_aodfin]

The psychological aspect seems to be more important and worrisome, IMHO. The things developing children interact with are known to cause a long-standing effect on their psychological development - particularly creativity, analytical skills and imagination. Most people (and geeks) including me can relate to how Legos had a +ve impact on their mental development as kids and how the newer "specialized lego sets" hamper this development by being too restrictive. The same can be said for many other articles/games that kids are exposed to in their developing ears.

Can you even get those bulk sets of Legos anymore. I remember seeing sets of 250, 500, and even 1000+ in K-Mart when I was a kid. I still like to build stuff using Legos, especually if it's big and complex. The fact remains that these newer Lego sets while they look cool are a real shame. I guess it's all a part of the dumbing down of America and I blame smarttoys, poor parenting, and those new schooling techniques like no child left behind.

I'm glad though that India did reject this program, but not because I'm a luddite. I would like to see proof done on a sample first to verify it's effectiveness. It really would be a shame if we were to spend all this money on such a well meaning program only for it to fail. Not to mention the humiliation factor involved. I'm all for it if it helps but if it does not I'd rather see the program scraped for something that did prove effective.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[ClamIAm]

The GP's post may be able to be construed to mean that he thinks at 30 that action figures only have predetermined uses. However, unless you can prove that this is what he means (this would require asking him), your entire rebuttal is void.

And no, creating a "logical argument" that this is what he means won't cut it. Posts on a bullshit forum generally do not take lots of care to ensure their meaning is clear and unambiguous. We're not debating Plato here.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[lawpoop]

First off, I have to say that you probably do have greater imaginative power than I do.

If you have a look at a cardboard refridgerator box, you will notice that there is nothing about it that indicates that it is a refridgerator box. It is a box, but it is a *refridgerator* box in name only, not in function. At one time, it may have had a refridgerator in it, or it may have even had a washing machine in it. Maybe it never contained any appliance at all (despite whatever it was originally manufactured for). It is more generic, and therefore has greater possibility in my weakly imaginative mind. The castle playset was sometimes the Hotwheels carwash, but more often then not the shoebox with some holes cut in it was a better all-purpose building in Hotwheels land. Take your Risk example. It's very creative and clever what you and your friends did with the boards. How much more possiliby do you invite if you got rid of the boards altogether? If you got rid of every Risk element? Why, then you have potential for anything and everything.

If I have to imagine that the robots legs can do the splits when it's obviously physically impossible, why should I do all that work? The robot has legs, they look like legs, they move *somewhat* like legs, but only up to a point. It's the uncanny valley phenomenon. Obviously they were designed with the intention to be as much like real legs as possible, but they fail miserably when it comes to actually getting around or kicking bad guys. If it takes all that imaginative work to overcome the robot's malfunctional legs, why not just get rid of the stupid robot altogether? By contrast, the stick has limitless possibility. It wasn't built to be a rifle, therefore it doesn't fail to live up to my expectations. Likewise as the sword or magical staff. It's not an obvious contradiction to my imagination. It can't fail in its role because it *has* no pre-defined role.

I don't understand your argument about the blank page book versus fan fiction. If you write a story and call it Star Wars fan fiction, but it has no Force, no Empire, no light sabers, Jedis, wookies, spaceships, stars, or wars, in what sense is it even Star Wars fan fiction? It would be just as if you had started with the blank pages. What is the myth that an unwritten story has more possibility than fan fiction?

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[Belial6]

As for the blank pages. If you write 10 pages of new material, you have come up with new stuff. Whether you spend that time imagining what one specific character looks like, and spend all 10 pages describing him, or you simply say he is "Luke Skywalker" and spend 10 pages describing the specific space craft he is flying, you still have crated 10 pages of new material. That is why, until you have imagined everything that can be imagined, starting with source material does not in any way limit imagination.

"How much more possiliby do you invite if you got rid of the boards altogether" The same could be said of your box or stick. Either source material limits you, or it does not. The answer of course is that it does not.

"By contrast, the stick has limitless possibility. It wasn't built to be a rifle, therefore it doesn't fail to live up to my expectations. Likewise as the sword or magical staff. It's not an obvious contradiction to my imagination. It can't fail in its role because it *has* no pre-defined role. "

A stick is a stick and a robot is a robot. The pre-defined role you speak of is an illusion. It is not a characteristic of the toy, but of you. There is only a pre-defined role if choose to accept it. You have arbitrarily decided that one inanimate object can be imagined to have different properties but another can not. This makes absolutly no sense whatsoever.

"why should I do all that work?"

What?!?!?!?! Basically your saying that you will/did only use your imagination when there was no other choice. The whole point was to play and imagine. It's not work. If you couldn't and still can't figure that out, you have bigger problems.

"How much more possiliby do you invite if you got rid of the boards altogether?"

Exactly the same amount as if you got rid of your stick

Basically it comes down to this. As a child you had a limited imagination. When you grew up and became an adult, you didn't want to admit that it was you that was the limitation, so you blamed the toy. You now have a choice. Continue to blame inanimate objects for having attributes and stay in denial, or realize that you missed something, realize that there are no limits on imagination, and open a whole new world for yourself. I guarentee you that no matter what source material you start with, or how well fleshed out that source material is, or how much of the source material you choose to accept or deny, you will never have imagined everything that can be imagined with it.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[Belial6]

I'm not going to create a "logical argument". I'm just going to tell you to go read the other branch of this thread. The GP is still trying to argue that certain toys have predetermined uses, and that this prevents you from imagining other uses.
Of course, your post is an admition of being wrong. When you pull out the 'prove that the poster means what he says' argument, you are obviously on shaky ground. Can you imagine how threads would go if we actually asked everybody if they meant what they said? Lets see....

Poster1: "We're not debating Plato here."
Poster2: Do you really mean that we are not debating Plato?
Poster1: Yes.
Poster2: Do you really mean yes? I don't want to misunderstand.
Poster1: Do you really mean you don't want to misunderstand?
Poster2: Yep.
Poster1: Do you really mean yep? Because if you don't, my entire rebuttle will be void.
Poster2: Do you really mean that your entire rebuttle will be void? It's important to be clear you know.
Poster1: Do you really mean that it is important to be clear?
etc... etc... etc...

The only effective way to carry on a conversation is to accept that people mean what they say, and when you call them on it, for them to tell you that you misunderstood. That is not what happened here. The GP made a bizarre and incorrect statement. I called him on it, and he continued to defend his position. I know it is hard to believe that the GP really does mean what he said, but he is sticking to it.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[dan_bethe]

One day, our parents took us out to what would become our rural household for the next decade. The first thing we did when we checked out the property was totally freak out at the cool sticks and climbing trees, and the fact that it was surrounded on all sides by fields full of dirt clod grenades, all for role playing.
Nevertheless, my kneeless Transformers could breakdance and do comedy routines. The subterranian, mechanized labyrinths of Cybertron comprised our whole house. My Hotwheels cars could open their doors like wings and fly, or become amphibious vehicles in the bathtub with torpedoes that were tracked by my fingertips and vocal sound effects. The heap of sand in the front yard (for concrete) was their secret base, containing an elaborate subterranian network of tunnels and roads subject to emergency floods by the garden hose. My Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles had a full range of motion as stop-motion characters anchored by silly putty on our VHS camcorder. Or they had the option of reenacting scenes from TV. Or we picked up sticks and became Transformers ourselves.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[Marcos Eliziario]

I was born in 1974, and because of that, I was exposed to Basic on the 80's, what, according to Dijkstra should have damaged my brain permanently. (I think I survived this fate because after a short time on basic I got an interest on assembler for the z80 processor.) But now, talking seriously... I believe that learning a computer language is excellent for kids. Besides Sci Fi, I don't know anything as effective to make a kid to really come to appreciate books than trying to solve a programming problem (at least with boys). Tell a kid from a ghetto that if he studies hard he will eventually become a doctor, and probably, he will laugh at your face. Now, if you manage to make him program something, he will get hooked, and will start believing that HE CAN do things, because now you can give him a fast feedback cycle for his efforts. It's not something distant, like: have good grades and, eventually, you'll go to college, and eventually, you'll get a 100K job.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[Andabata]

There's not much of a difference between your toys and transformers. And nothing wrong with using your toys! Computers are not being proposed by OLPC to replace other toys, just as extra ones that can make a difference. Check out this: http://llk.media.mit.edu/projects.php And if you think that's not for third-world countries, check this out: it is in use in Brazil, Thailand... http://padthai.media.mit.edu:8080/cocoon/gogosite/ home.xsp?lang=en

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder, haven't most slashdotters(at least the younger people here) spent huge amount of time in front of their computers while they were children? Except for most people's love life I don't see ill effects.

Even worse, some have been using windows systems all their childhood, static interfaces, stupid system constrains and other stuff didn't have an ill psychological effect on most of you, did it?

In my opinion, countries who adopt this program are making a great step towards the mindset that says: "Can you program?" "Well, I'm literate, if that's what you mean!"

I used to be bent over my computer my whole life, my spine, wrist and other body parts are still 100% percent functional. I wear glasses, but most people who spend 5+ hours per day reading(wether books, computers or holographic data) will eventually exhaust his eyes enough to wear them. Would anybody here be willing to remove his glasses if it costs a huge amount of the knowledge you have in your head?

my 0.2$

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[TheRaven64]

There is nothing intrinsically difficult about having a computer teach anyone who can speak how to use it. As long as there's enough storage space to record some spoken words and pictures, you can give basic instructions verbally and pictorially. Your next step is to use some text-to-speach software to read out (and highlight on-screen) written text (ideally with some pictures). Then start letting students type things and read them back. Get them entering text and have the computer read to them. Let it highlight incorrect spellings, and suggest corrections. Put in a dictionary with as many pictures as possible so that they can work out which of the suggestions they really meant.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[Anonymous Coward]

You have a lot of free time to devote to this! I'm not sure why it is worth talking about this much.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[Anonymous Coward]

The robot could be an evil villian in his hideout, or he could be a good guy on his way to saving the galaxy. However, one thing he will *not* be doing is breakdancing

http://www.visit4info.com/details.cfm?adid=18560

Now who has a poor imagination?

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[Belial6]

Exactly.

Which also solves the non-stop whinning about where the flying cars are. They are at Target for about a $1.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[nuzak]

When I was a boy, I remember a stick being variously a rifle, a magical staff, a metal sword, a light saber, a spear, even a spaceship. Are my analytical skills impoverished because I ran around in the woods and played with sticks instead of playing the living room with shiny, plastic transformers?

Actually, a number of child psychologists would say you were better off for it. The cultural problem is the reverse of what you think it is -- video games and a lot of modern toys are a very specific entertainment that don't allow the same open-ended flexibility of play. Still, I don't think it's all bad -- I remember my kid brother having Transformers playing with Teddy Ruxpin and making up the oddest stories with threads that only must have made sense in his head. A lot of it is simply nature, not nurture.

I don't think that's the issue though, and while I think the Indian govt is partly reacting out of conservative egotism, they have some very valid points, including just plain not knowing the effects of simply dumping a million laptops on kids then standing back and expecting some magic to happen. And besides, they have a right to the egotism -- they're a country with a long history of geniuses and they're not keen on charity from some starry-eyed outfit that might find some new shiny and cute thing to focus on once the children start growing up.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[dan_bethe]

^_^

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[lawpoop]

All I'm saying is that when I picked up the GI Joe and had him playing with Barbie, they were still GI Joe and Barbie. They didn't have the plasticity of identity that the stick or cardboard box or modelling clay has. When I played hotwheels, they were still cars, even if they were flying cars or talking cars. When I played with He-man, he was still a fantasy barbarian. If I wanted robots, I got out the transformers.

Apprently all the other slashdotters here grew up playing with toys and imagining scenarios that had no input whatsoever from the toys that were in front of them. They would play transformers with GI Joe figures and play 4-dimensional chess on risk boards. Sheesh! ;)

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[try_anything]

Technology is also about customization. A smart kid gets about twenty minutes of useful information from the chalkboard every day. The rest of it is for the other kids, and he is forced to do remedial work for 80% of his day and maybe read books during lecture if his teachers let him. (Yes, I had a few jerk teachers who wouldn't let me read books in class.) In their current form, schools punish intelligence with boredom.

Kids who are ahead the rest of the class are considered finished projects. They're ignored. You can create honors classes, but then the kids who are ahead of the honors classes are ignored. Why do anything for them? They're "done," so you just leave them there like cookies on the cooling rack.

Technology can change that, or at least give the smart kids a chance to make progress. Face it, the kids who are ahead will always be ignored, because teachers are never judged by success, only by the failure rate on standardized tests. So give the kids as much opportunity to make academic progress as possible -- give everyone an interactive curriculum! You can ignore the smart kids as always, but the smart kids will spend their time learning instead of sleeping, sneaking peeks at Isaac Asimov novels, and wondering if next year will be the year that they actually learn something in school.

Nobody thinks it's weird that someone talented at an academic subject says, "X was always easy for me." How many people can say, "Basketball was always easy for me," or, "Violin was always easy for me?" Nobody! Only academics is set up so that someone who is good at, say, math, will never encounter any challenging math until they reach college. Everything else runs the way it should -- no matter how good you are, there's always a challenge to keep you working.

Only computer-based interactive curricula can provide an appropriate pace for all students.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[servognome]

Nobody thinks it's weird that someone talented at an academic subject says, "X was always easy for me." How many people can say, "Basketball was always easy for me," or, "Violin was always easy for me?" Nobody! Only academics is set up so that someone who is good at, say, math, will never encounter any challenging math until they reach college. Everything else runs the way it should -- no matter how good you are, there's always a challenge to keep you working.

There are plenty of talented athletes who find thier sport easy as children. Just as in academics, sometimes it breeds arrogance and/or boredom which prevents the person from reaching their potential. There are plenty of super talented basketball players who dominate the playgrounds because they refused to listen to coaching.
Structured learning can never provide everything, the people who make the most of their talents in any walk of life are the ones who pursue self-directed activities as a compliment. The best athletes are the ones who play during the offseason, the best musicians play in their garage with their friends, the best students are the ones who do find their own activities (eg enter poetry contests, or write their own computer programs).

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[try_anything]

There are plenty of talented athletes who find thier sport easy as children.

Nope, sports are organized in such a way that you keep playing until you lose. In the Little League World Series, only about twenty kids in the entire world get to feel like their sport is "easy." In individual sports like tennis, you get inserted into a state ranking system, and if you're too good for that, a national system. In basketball, your team may go undefeated by winning the postseason tournament, but you don't score every time down the floor. You face little defeats and failures every time you step on the court. It's the same for little kids playing soccer. Of *course* you don't score every time you touch the ball.

It isn't quite the same way with addition and subtraction and true/false questions about American history. Classroom stimulation is carefully engineered to a narrow level of challenge, and the maximum level of challenge increases mechanically from year to year absolutely independently of the capabilities of the students. An inferior basketball opponent may accidentally make a brilliant move once in a while, but a sixth grade textbook does not "accidentally" contain a chapter written on a ninth-grade level.

There are plenty of super talented basketball players who dominate the playgrounds because they refused to listen to coaching.

They ended up on the playground because they failed (or gave up) on the challenge presented to them, not because of a lack of challenge.

the people who make the most of their talents in any walk of life are the ones who pursue self-directed activities

Yeah, like computer programming. Or solving problems a few chapters ahead in the math book. Hah. If you make your own math, you're a genius. Granted, geniuses can't be stopped. Everyone else ends up repeating themselves eventually, like writing a bunch of lame-ass computer programs in BASIC that draw patterns on the screen or implement text adventures or quiz them on math problems. Been there, done that, got sick of my own mind after several years of Applesoft BASIC and gave up programming for an equal number of years. Creating your own variations on what you've learned is an essential part of learning, but it's just masturbation after a point unless you're brilliant enough to develop the field by yourself. Nobody except a genius gets very far without external stimulation.

Why do you think top colleges insist on extracurriculars? It isn't because they don't value academic work, and it is only in small part because they value "well-rounded students." It's mainly because they know that given the lack of challenging academics in US high schools, if you don't accomplish anything beyond academics, you're probably either a) lazy, or b) a bit dull.

You can probably tell I'm a little bitter. Yeah, I'm bitter. I'm bitter because I when I played high school tennis I used to get up on Saturday morning, go to the tennis courts by myself, hit a few hundred practice serves, and feel good about it. Yeah, I'm a good player, I work hard, I'm proud of myself. That's the way I was trained to think. But academically, I was trained to think that if I had to work hard at something, I must suck at it. I was plagued by that feeling all throughout college and am still plagued by it to this day. "Oh man, I had to think really hard to do that proof, so I must actually suck at math despite all the evidence to the contrary." "Wow, that physics problem set was hard, which is too bad because I thought I might actually be good at physics. No, wait, just because a few problems in a problem set for a senior-level class are hard for me, a sophomore, doesn't mean I suck at physics. Yes it does... NO NO IT DOES NOT ... stop embarrassing yourself and pick another field."

That's the kind of mentality that public school drilled into me. Basically, for the first

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[servognome]

Nope, sports are organized in such a way that you keep playing until you lose. In the Little League World Series, only about twenty kids in the entire world get to feel like their sport is "easy." In individual sports like tennis, you get inserted into a state ranking system, and if you're too good for that, a national system

That's competing, not teaching.
The actual teaching and practice of baseball in little league is horribly boring - how to call and catch a pop-fly, what base to throw to. It's designed just like school, to be inclusive and to ensure all kids get rudimentry skills. The Little League World Series is an All-Star competition; the kids who needed coaching during the intra-league season, are most likely not part of those teams.
Academic parallels to the Little League example are Science Olympiad or AcDec. The kids who win the competition are those who are self-motivated; those that only know what they get from school, are usually not good enough to compete.

Yeah, like computer programming. Or solving problems a few chapters ahead in the math book. Hah.

Then don't take programming in school, and try your hand at something new, you just might like it (I've found metal shop has more application than calculus in the real world). Even core classes can offer alternatives: if a student doesn't want to write a book report on "The Cat in the Hat," they can ask to write it on "The Scarlett Letter," in math take the next highest level available (eg if you are supposed to take pre-algebra in 7th grade, enroll in the 8th grade algebra class). At my old high school, there was a kid who excelled at math, to the point where he completed all the school's AP Calculus classes a year early. So he worked with the school to let him take Vector calc at the nearby college. Since then several students have done the same thing, and it's a situation where everybody wins, just takes a little administrative work.

That's the kind of mentality that public school drilled into me. Basically, for the first eighteen years of my life, I never saw anyone struggle with anything academic who wasn't a complete retard. So now I feel stupid and ashamed every time I have to think hard about anything. On a bad day, I even feel ashamed to work a full eight-hour day, because obviously (to my warped mind) if I'm good at what I do, I should be able to knock off all my work during the last half of study hall.

I always found that everybody struggled with something in school. Probably the greatest equalizer in terms of seeing people struggle was foreign languages.

The bottom line is, by providing a fairly uniform challenge to kids with wildly divergent capabilities, schools inadvertently teach kids that talent and success are inversely related to effort and dedication.

I agree. At the same time, there is no perfect system, they all have positive and negative implications from a social, economic, and academic standpoint. Since there it is impossible to have a single system that works for every individual, tweak the system at the individual level. Which can be done through exceptions made by the school, individualized learning, or through extra-curricular activities.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[try_anything]

I always found that everybody struggled with something in school. Probably the greatest equalizer in terms of seeing people struggle was foreign languages.

The problem is that they only struggle at their weaknesses, so they learn to associate effort with failure (or at least lack of achievement and potential.) Doug works hard at English and only spends ten minutes on his math homework; therefore, Doug sucks at English and might have a future in math.

That's competing, not teaching. The actual teaching and practice of baseball in little league is horribly boring - how to call and catch a pop-fly, what base to throw to. It's designed just like school, to be inclusive and to ensure all kids get rudimentry skills. The Little League World Series is an All-Star competition; the kids who needed coaching during the intra-league season, are most likely not part of those teams. Academic parallels to the Little League example are Science Olympiad or AcDec. The kids who win the competition are those who are self-motivated; those that only know what they get from school, are usually not good enough to compete.

There's a big difference between youth sports and academics. The rules of youth sports are designed with the explicit goal that coaches are motivated to help every kid, good and bad, improve his performance. (Later on, in school sports, the worst athletes end up excluded for the same reason the best students are excluded: their performance makes no difference to the perceived success or failure of their teachers.) In baseball, advanced kids get subtle training on their form and drilling on coverage patterns. If there's a guy on first and the batter hits a ground ball to the third baseman, the right fielder covers a bad throw to first, so it's the center fielder's job to cover a bad throw to second. If the center fielder doesn't react immediately when the ball is hit, a bad throw to second could go to the right field fence. He has to think through the possibilities before every pitch. There's a ton of stuff to know, way more than any seven year old can absorb, and the coach makes sure each kid is working at his full potential, no matter what that is, because depending on the breaks, a marginal difference in the skill of any single kid, from the best to the worst, can make the difference between winning and losing.

(Maybe I just came from a place where people care more about baseball than academics, but I think the difference is due to incentives. If a kid is going to dependably score above grade level on the state standardized tests, then there's nothing to gain from giving him any further instruction.)

Academic Decathlon is quite the opposite of self-motivated, self-directed work, at least in my experience. I worked with my school's Academic Decathlon team for a week (with the intention of joining and competing) and later helped the team study for some of the math stuff, and it was nothing but piles of 3-ring binders full of shallow information on a bunch of topics. There were books involved, but according to the strategy the team had decided to follow, actually reading the books was deemed an inefficient use of time until I had the binder stuff down cold. The math material, which was supposed to be my specialty, was just a summary of the basic high school math curriculum. In fact, the only math the seniors hadn't already covered in class was a bit of calculus they hadn't got to yet and basic combinatorics (mCn and mPn, which their Algebra II teacher had skipped for some reason.) My role in this supposedly high-level contest was to tutor the non-math-oriented people on stuff they had already covered in class. I.e, remedial work. So I decided it was just more machine stuff, just a contest to see who could master a predefined set of easy material more completely and efficiently than the next guy, with less emphasis on problem-solving and more emphasis on memorization (i.e., less fun by my taste.)

There

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[ClamIAm]

When you pull out the 'prove that the poster means what he says' argument, you are obviously on shaky ground

Sorry, but this is BS. You asserted that the poster meant X. You failed to back it up. Therefore, you must provide some sort of proof, otherwise your entire argument is void. Thanks for playing.

Re:Particularly the psychological effects...

[ultranova]

It's like the difference between writting fan fiction and creating your own universe. There is simply a greater realm of possibility when you have blank pages.

There is an infinite realm of possibility either way. You can change whatever you like in the fanfic universe. The Force could turn out to be a primitive application of One Power and the Old Republic the Age of Legends of the Wheel of Time (with Palpatine, with his habit of coming back from the dead ad nauseaum, being the Dark One), for example. Or maybe Luke went to the Dark Side. Or maybe Anakin stayed at the Temple and didn't fall, and Mace Windu killed Palpatine and went to the Dark Side, seeing Sith everywhere and taking control of the Republic to root them all out. There are endless possibilities in fanfic; if anything, there are more possibilities than in original fiction since you don't need to establish the characters or the universe so you can tell short stories that would require too much setup to work as original fiction.

Besides, you never begin with empty pages. In order for your writing to have any meaning to the reader, you have to take concepts from reality - space and time, laws of physics, human emotions... The page is never blank.

- fear of change?

[EnempE]

If your current marketable resource is cheap labour, why would you educate your populous with access to world media? Would this not just increase their expectations regarding an acceptable standard of living ? Would this not increase the level of communications between the youth with mesh networks bridging communinities? This level of communications could perhaps lead to a level of organisation that could be a powerful political force? Could this element upset your current long range planning for your country ? Would you take the risk?

Re:- fear of change?

[rite_m]

Interesting? I think its more like trolling. And bullshit. If you think that India's government is scared of getting its people 'connected', well, think again. India has the fastest growing market for cell phones, a fledgling cable television industry, cut-throat media competition and a booming ISP market. The latest schemes for internet connections in small towns cost Rs 500 ($11) per month for DSL connections. Dont take the erratic governmental policies like the recent site bans as a 'policy'. India is NOT China.

Re:- fear of change?

[PCM2]

If your current marketable resource is cheap labour, why would you educate your populous with access to world media? Would this not just increase their expectations regarding an acceptable standard of living ?

Some governments may think this way but you certainly cannot say this of India. India over the last century has moved more aggressively in the area of education than perhaps any developing nation. Moreover it has a very strong educational and literary tradition going back centuries, if not millenia. Check out the Wikipedia article on Education in India.

It's not about laptops, it's about computers

[Bromskloss]

not one industrial country has so far implemented a similar program for its children, which casts doubt as to what the pedagogical use for notebooks in class really is

The need for laptops like these is not so great in countries where there already are computers everywhere.

Nigeria orders first million OLPC laptops

[SpaceLifeForm]

Link.

Re:Nigeria orders first million OLPC laptops

[Jasin Natael]

Dear Mr. American Man,
    My dog has recently expired, leaving a sizable sum of money buried behind our house (US $190,000.00). I am concerned my parents will find this money and take it away from me. Please provide me with the routing and transit numbers for your bank account(s), and you can have half of the money. All I ask is that you would wire me small amounts from my half of the money when I email you. This way my parents won't suspect a thing.

Sincerely
Ali Babatunde

Substantial Naysayer

[Anonymous Coward]

We've technically heard all this before, haven't we? Money could be better used to help the needy in a less "technical" way. I suppose it took an actual government to say it for some of the argument to sink in.

Look, I'm with you -- we're technogeeks and this is what we do. We know we'd have loved to have tech stuff when we were kids and think that the less fortunate should have the same opportunity. It's a sincere and genuine thought. When I had an Apple II at 8, I learned bits of BASIC and an interest in programming. I now make a modest living helping people out at a public computer lab. Whee.

I do understand the humanitarian aspect of free software -- that poverty shouldn't limit creativity. Governments usually don't look at things at the microscopic level, though. They probably see this as giving an inedible commodity to the hungry. Instead, pitch the idea to specific charities and the like. If a government wants to help, they can provide some funding for the charities and let those closest to the people figure out if the one laptop per child program is appropriate for those they help.

Momma... Momma says laptops are the devil

[kaoshin]

There may be a better use of the money, but the bit about children's health is pretty lame. What do they think that kids will go blind? Reminds me of when my Mom used to tell me "Dont sit too close to the television set!". Even the eye doctors said crap like that. I started using computers as a child and my vision was also poor. My optometrist said that if I kept using computers constantly like I was then I would end up requiring glasses or corrective surgery or something. Even after an increased amount of usage (I now have multiple monitors in my face for 12+ hours a day) my vision has actually improved to 20/20. Am I genetically superior to most nerds, or was it all just a load of crap? I can understand my vision not changing, but how it actually got better by increasing the time and amount of radiation my eyes are exposed to IMPROVED my vision boggles the mind. Socially though, they may be correct. I'm not a fat nerd, but if you get into computers you will have to work with fat nerds, and who wants that? Besides, I'd rather discourage Indians from learning computers because they seem to be taking all my jobs from me. So yeah, I say they should maybe punish children who use computers, perhaps with a shocking monkey.

Re:Momma... Momma says laptops are the devil

[DerekLyons]

There may be a better use of the money, but the bit about children's health is pretty lame. What do they think that kids will go blind? Reminds me of when my Mom used to tell me "Dont sit too close to the television set!". Even the eye doctors said crap like that. I started using computers as a child and my vision was also poor. My optometrist said that if I kept using computers constantly like I was then I would end up requiring glasses or corrective surgery or something. Even after an increased amount of usage (I now have multiple monitors in my face for 12+ hours a day) my vision has actually improved to 20/20. Am I genetically superior to most nerds, or was it all just a load of crap?

 
No, you are an unusual case sitting out under one end or the other of the bell curve.

Re:Momma... Momma says laptops are the devil

[Anonymous Coward]

Reminds me of when my Mom used to tell me "Dont sit too close to the television set!". Even the eye doctors said crap like that.

So.. Glasses or contacts?

a little off topic, perhaps...

[westlake]

the concern about health effects may seem silly

I have been wondering how easy it is for a young child to keep the laptop batteries charged. This would seem to be at least an order of magnitude more demanding than a Lifeline radio.

Re:a little off topic, perhaps...

[1u3hr]

I have been wondering how easy it is for a young child to keep the laptop batteries charged.

People seem to fixate on the crank/pedal whatever. If you've got any kind of power, you can just plug it in. I don't see it being much use to a really young (under 8) kid anyway.

PCs in schools are mostly a distraction

[Radical Rad]

not one industrial country has so far implemented a similar program for its children, which casts doubt as to what the pedagogical use for notebooks in class really is

One effect is to distract the students with email, instant messaging, games, web surfing, porn, cracking into other computers, anything but pay attention to the material which is, obviously, not conducive to learning.

Re:PCs in schools are mostly a distraction

[Anonymous Coward]

What if you don't have texbooks, paper, or other things our schools would have?

Anways, there are things you do need a computer to learn.

India Rejects One Laptop per Child Program

[roman_mir]

And introduces a more advanced, grand and definitely a more cost-effective 'Kill Off Those Without Laptops' program.

Good - Laptops are bullshit

[Geccie]

Sorry - Our grandparents built the hoover dam, sent astronauts to the moon, and created computer systems and languages - all without computers in schools. Advocates seem to think this is the magic wand that will make the school critters smart. How about homework.

I do think there are a few subjects where the ability to illustrate is extremely important convey a concept or situation. However, the idea that each child should have a laptop is complete and total bullshit!

Our children are now dumber per dollar spent on education than many less wealthy countries!

Re:Good - Laptops are bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

you need to be a little more realistic. the moon landing couldnt have happened without computer tech. the last plane to be designed using slide rulers was the lockheed martin sr 71.

as far as blaming pc's for poor roi for school dollars, you are missing the the point. you sound like one of those archaic math teachers that used to say, you cant use a calculator untill you learn to do it by hand first. on the surfact thsi sounds good, but it is like saying you cant use a hammer until you learn to drive a nail home with your fist. or like the students of pythagoras not being allowed to speak for their first 5 years (although one can argue this had practical roots in the sophist culture at the time)

the main reason for poor school roi is that nobody gives a shit. many teachers view their position as a shitty job, but with lots of holidays. their union systematically resists any call for performace acountability. students likewise dont give a shit. most of them know its all a scam, and their M.O. is to get out asap, pass their tests, goto college, get a job, and get on with their lives. you can give schools the best gear money can buy, but with this attitude little will be accomplished.

Re:Good - Laptops are bullshit

[Revolver4ever]

We are talking about thrid world countries here. Our "grandparents" built the Hoover Dam by getting a degree in engineering, studying from textbooks widely availble to everybody in the states. They talked with professors who were the best engineers of the time. They looked at pictures of other dams, etc etc. We cannot provide all of this to the kids in Africa. But, we can come close with this laptop. It can replace or partially imitate all of the things I described above and more.

Re:Good - Laptops are bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that may be true but look at who you are dealing with in this country.

If they put more focus on education in the media in the US instead of rap stars and their wads of cash and bitches
then maybe we would be a little better off......

Where I live they are shutting schools and merging classes because of no money.......that probably doesn't help any kids get an edumacation either.......

A laptop to help kids in countries that probably WANT to be educated cannot be a bad thing. Americans are all fat and lazy. Looking for the easy way out.........

--

It's just too obvious. The "Negroponte" Laptop?

[elucido]

The name "Negroponte", and free laptops will make any government alittle bit suspicious. This would be like the last names Clinton and Bush joining forces to give out free laptops, and offering it to India.

I think it's a good idea, but just, don't I think even people in India know the name Negroponte. So I'm not surprised they rejected the one laptop per child program. It just seems political even if it isnt.

effects of lack of laptop

[Anonymous Coward]

How about the cognitive health effects and educational effects of the lack of access to modern technology on children. Seems like they are not too concerned with their children's professional and academic future.

The white man's burden

[DerekLyons]

From TFA:

• It [the Indian Ministry of Human Resource Development] also finds it intriguing as to "why no developed country has been chosen" for MIT's OLPC experiment "given the fact that most of the developed world is far from universalising the possession and use of laptops among children of 6-12 age group".

That's because Negroponte, like the people who adopt from China or Korea, still believes in the White Man's Burden. It's racisim and elitism and imperialism, pure and simple. An undiluted form of bigotry straight from the nineteenth century. But it's been given a White Hat by virtue of seniority.

One missile per child?

[Asztal_]

Oh, you simply must come over, I have the latest model.

no developed country has signed on because..

[bitlooter]

perhaps because they don't need such a program? they are wealthy so the parents can afford to buy better computers for their kids, the same cannot be said for 99% of Indian parents.

how hard is it...

[zogger]

..to think the word "books"? Really, this isn't rocket surgery here. This is one of the primary uses of these proposed laptops, cheap e books easily shared and duplicated, to go to areas where a SINGLE dead trees book is an expensive luxury. It's right in their proposals! I'd call that a "pedagogical use".

Re:how hard is it...

[kingsley2.com]

Yes, the main cost of books is obviously in manufacturing them. The real costs in spreading information in India are the unavailability of cheap, second hand photocopiers to break copyright law with.

Re:how hard is it...

[tehcyder]

this isn't rocket surgery here

no, but maybe it's brain science

The markting is bad.

[elucido]

I do not think you can market a program like this as "One Laptop per Child Program", and it just happens to be from America, and just happens to include the name Negroponte. I mean, I'm not trying to sound like a conspiracy theorist, I'm an American, but what government will agree to this when it's marketed like this?

Most people question anything that is so cheap that it is nearly free, they ask why if laptops are so cheap that only the third world can have them? Since when did we design laptops or anything of this sort for the third world, or India?

I think these laptops ARE a good idea, I just don't think you can market it like this and expect it to take off, at a time like this when the middle east is falling down the drain. I'm not surprised by India's reaction, India is suspicious of the deal, and who wouldnt be.

Re:The markting is bad.

[Anonymous Coward]

Most people question anything that is so cheap that it is nearly free, they ask why if laptops are so cheap that only the third world can have them? Since when did we design laptops or anything of this sort for the third world, or India?

It's so cheap because it is so crappy. And $100 per child is nowhere near free. It's a ridiculous marketing plot and the producers are insane if they think 3rd-world-countries' leaders are stupid enough to shell out x*$10,000,000 for this crap.

It's definitely better to invest into a sane defense-system so the fucking US will not try to pull a "democratization" on them or suddenly decides that terrorists are hiding there.

Re:The markting is bad.

[Anonymous Coward]

The laptops don't run windows, Indians working in outsourced services are probably expected to have experience of nothing but microsoft products, i guess that makes linux based laptops a hinderence in the government's eyes, everyone in the west is tied into a microsoft monoculture and that's what they feel they must emulate or risk ridicule.

Re:The markting is bad.

[ultranova]

It's definitely better to invest into a sane defense-system so the fucking US will not try to pull a "democratization" on them or suddenly decides that terrorists are hiding there.

Having nuclear missiles to deter other people who have nuclear missiles from attacking is known as the "MAD" defense. The "SANE" defense means using a Linux laptop / handheld scanner -combination to conduct industrial and military espionage. The laptops need to run Linux since the system must be able to conceal the scanned data from examination, and only an open source system gives enough flexibility to do that reliably.

Anyway, I quite agree that USA's talk about "Axis of Evil" and "War on Terror" as well as the Iraq war (when North Korea has not been attacked) certainly do make it clear that the only guarantee against American invasion is a strong missile system.

Re:The markting is bad.

[pedalman]

India may have been insulted by this program. When we say "India", we still envision this stereotype of abject poverty, poor health, and uneaten cattle. I took a marketing class last year and was surprised to find in the textbook that India actually has a large middle class. In fact, this middle class is growing in leaps and bounds.

OLPC may make India feel like they are viewed as a charity case by the rest of the world.

Re:The markting is bad.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the same problem we have marketting FOSS to users in any other country, they feel that anything non microsoft must be inferior and want nothing but the best and most expensive for their children, furthermore they aren't after equal opportunities but wish to give their own offspring advantages which place them ahead of those of their peers. It's unfortunately the kind of thing you see among the upper middle classes in other countries too.

So why not just give Ibooks?

[elucido]

Please tell me why we should give out special laptops to people in the third world?
If you were living in the third world, would you want one of these special laptops or an Ibook? I think if we just offered Ibooks in the first place it would be accepted. It's that we are offering these new unusual laptops that most likely scares people away from using them.

I think computers are very useful, I think the idea is very good, I just wish we would have given out ibooks in the first place instead of computers people never heard of that are handcranked or whatever. I understand the third world has energy problems, so how about a solar powered or handcranked modified ibook?

Re:So why not just give Ibooks?

[porcupine8]

Um, in case you haven't been following this story too closely, the main point is that these will retail for $100. iBooks retail for roughly ten times that amount.

Sure, maybe Apple could figure out how to make a $100 limited iBook, but they're a private company rather than a nonprofit, so how would that help their shareholders? Or someone could donate 10x as much money to get real iBooks out there - but then people would say it's a waste of money if you could get 10x as many of these special computers for the same price.

(Of course, Apple DID offer to donate OS X licenses to the project, but Negroponte refused b/c he wants it totally open source...)

Re:So why not just give Ibooks?

[scaryjohn]

Sincere answer: because these laptops, if produced in sufficiently large quantities will allegedly only cost $100 apiece.

Cynical answer: because the corporate sponsors of the program are seeking to create a user base for Linux in the developing world, where they aren't subject to a Windows monopoly over software that can run on their hardware, or an Apple monopoly over hardware that doesn't need MS software.

Re:So why not just give Ibooks?

[mobby_6kl]

Sure, maybe Apple could figure out how to make a $100 limited iBook, but they're a private company rather than a nonprofit, so how would that help their shareholders?

They can just double the price of their regular laptops. This won't hurt them because their fanboys won't admit or notice that there was a price increase.

lord

[Danzigism]

i think they just need to market the damn things.. i'd gladly pay $150-200 for one, for my kid.. just manufacture them damnit!! i think the idea is great to give kids these things and all, but i'd rather buy the kids tons of books and put the money in to providing them a good education, with good teachers and a nice working environment..

Re:lord

[Anonymous Coward]

I am with you.....

I wish they would get on with it. I wanna buy one for my kid while the money for that purchase will donate one to a
kid in a developing country.

"Not with our kids!"

[rmerry72]

The only way to find out is to do the experiment. The fact that India someone in India rejects it so loudly and publically before it's even been tried suggests less than the best motivation.

Actually TFA directly states that the Indian government does recognise the need for more reasearch and an experiment. Their response is "Not with our kids!"

Has this been proposed for other countries? Have other governments been giving this marvellous option of improving their own kids? Think there aren't a million impoverished kids in the UK, US or even here down under that could benefit from this wonderful gift of gratitude?

That's the core point of the Indian representative. Why spend $100 million on something that is not proven and that no other contry in the world has done. Giving laptops to preppie kids at a few schools is way different to a mass roll out to a million kids.

Not to mention issues such as support, teaching, upgrades, networking infrastructure, software. Hell - how many of this fortunate children would be in reach of a regular supply of electricity to charge their mighty laptops?

Laptops for a milion kids is a half baked plan of symbolistic philanthropy. Its a gesture only. Its not practical to implement, and the benefits are dubious in the current world climate.

you may wish to check your numbers

[tizan]

~25% of Indian population is better off economically than the lower 30% of the USA population (for e.g your typical walmart employee)

Re:you may wish to check your numbers

[bitlooter]

You're clearly delusional. India is dirt poor third-world country where the standard of living is barely better than that of sub-saharan Africa. I am sure walmart employees aren't the poorest Americans either.

Re:you may wish to check your numbers

[soliptic]

Er, never been to India then? Or even bothered to read about it properly? Yes, there are dirt poor third world "areas" (geographically and demographically). There are also skyscrapers, technology firms, middle class, nouveau riche, etc. I don't have a source to back up the parent's exact statistic, nor the time to find one right now, but it is at least feasible.

Re:you may wish to check your numbers

[SaDan]

The top 25% of the population of India ranks just above the lowest 30% here in the USA?... Wow, so the cream of the crop ranks slightly above people with cars on blocks in their front yard in the US?

What about the other 75% who can't afford cars, or even the blocks?

The pinnacle of civilization, I tell you. Go India.

Re:you may wish to check your numbers

[tizan]

Remember the flooding of New Orleans and the economic class that we suddenly found to exist in the USA. guess what the fraction of the US population is like that ( I live in New Mexico, yes its a state of the USA and its 3rd world in many places).....way to go leader of the civilized world ! All i was saying is that there are ~260 million people in india that get a better yearly pay than the poor souls that got greeted by Barbara Bush in the Houston Dome. I was just disputing the posting of the parent claimimg that 99% cannot buy a computer in India where as in the West every body can afford one...I am not defending the terrible economic disparity that exists in India or the USA.or in the world for that matter

Re:you may wish to check your numbers

[SaDan]

Can't say that being poor in the US is all that bad. I was very much below poverty level for a couple years in the midwest (four figure annual income and totally independant in every way, ugh), and I still managed to work my way out of that situation. I don't know how often the people in India get the chance that I had to better my situation.

I think Herbert Hoover once said. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

'A laptop in every pot'. Wait, that's not good for the laptop.

'Pot in every laptop', now that's a good thing. :-)

hallelujah!

[Anonymous Coward]

I grew up with a computer in my lap and I'm not better for it. Sure, I've got my degree, but I think I would have done far better without the distractions of the computer throughout school. Although I can't go completely without a computer while in school, unquestionably my best semesters were the ones where I barely ever touched a computer. Sometimes you need to just sit down with a sheet of paper and a book to get shit done.

Even today I know people who accomplish 10 times what a normal person does without knowing the first thing about computers. You think you're productive because you've got a blackberry? I've got news for you, people two generations ago were kicking our asses with just a pocket notebook and a pencil.

This is not a charity effort

[Anonymous Coward]

This is merely a business venture and nothing more. Does Negroponte really care about starving children? If so, why make them use laptops when they he could campaign for more national autonomy for such nations?

The reason is that there is big money to be made in "charity" and "helping others out". There isn't big money to be made when you let someone help themselves out.

ourselfs?

[DavidinAla]

Your post is pretty good evidence of a broken education system. Where did you go to school? ;-)

David

india's stupid politicians

[Anonymous Coward]

valid points aside, every time india has a chance to get aid, it rejects it. why do they always do this? i wonder if it's a pride thing.

India's real reason

[belal1]

We all know how indians think. If they could help another fellow indian, then that to them is very honorable compared to helping another foreigner. It's that whole "bharati" mentality. I'm suprised no one picked this up, but indians prefer to improve themselves by the help of their own people rather than getting help from outside. The reason for this is, it helps the whole economy as a whole. I remember back when the south asian countries started partitioning and while pakistan and east pakistan was importing cars from the western world, india limited that trade and instead focused on making their own cars. The reason for this is, it would affect their steel, mechanical, oil and other industry much more. It would also create more jobs for indians. Even today, you will see in india people spending money on indian cars much more than american or japanese cars. The rich can afford it, but still many prefer to use their own cars as it will help their own economy. Because of this, india is where it is today and in a few short years it will have a very serious economy. The same is happening now. Instead of pouring millions into buying the OLPC for their students, they will push their own computer companies into creating a similar product. By doing so, they will boost their own economy. They have a enormous amount of educated professionals out of jobs and they will do everything to find a way to create more jobs for these individuals. By launching their own initiative they will solve many problems. Just my two cents.

Re:India's real reason

[shahken]

Forget computers! The most important thing is to train a kid's brain to *think*. For that, you need good schools and good teachers. There is no spec of doubt in my mind that this amount will be better spent in improving infrastructure and getting better teachers than giving the child the computer. Kids in that age group will be much better off..

Think of it this way, what good is a tool if you dont know how to use it??

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[dunng808]

... the best use I saw for computers was reducing the amount of time it took teachers and staff to take attendance and collate grades ...

Ah yes, I've seen this a lot. Rejecting computers as being helpful to students, while embracing them as helpful to teachers. And to think this was written by someone who uses a computer to access the Internet. I wonder how much money they contributed to studies to determine if their time was being put to good use.

One computer per classroom

[DaveJay]

Far better (in my mind) than one laptop per child is simply "one computer per classroom" for third world countries, and make sure that computer has a huge monitor, backup power, and an internet connection of reasonable bandwidth.

I say this because having access to current information -- especially when presented in contextually-rich ways, such as google earth et al -- is a tremendous teaching tool that a good instructor can use to teach more effectively. On the other hand, putting individual machines in the hands of children may have benefits, but I'm having a hard time thinking of what they might be.

As for money-where-my-mouth-is, I have two infants, and I have no intention whatsoever of giving them their own computers. A firehose of information without guidance is of little use. However, there will be a computer in the common area, hooked up to a big monitor, for us to use as a family. We can monitor their surfing, provide context when they need it, and make computer use a social activity instead of a solitary one.

Why would they go for it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Those folks need food, water, medicine and lots of other things before they need a stupid laptop.

$100 is a lot of money in places like India.

http://home.earthlink.net/~root.man/sci.html

true...sort of

[N3wsByt3]

"There is no reason not to simultaneously provide medical aid, food aid, aid to repair infrastructure, and etcetera, and computers. That is a phony dichotomy."

It's not mutual exclusive, that is true. Yet, seen the limited amount of money being spend (it's not as if the budget for foreign aid has no limits, after all), there is *something* to it: you really can't do everything. At least, not becoming meaningless: say, hypothetically,j you have a budget of 10 dollar, then you can spend it on 2 or perhaps three topics in a meaningful manner, but not on 200. (For instance; buying food would not prevent starvation if the food was only one grain, worth 0.00001 dollar, a day).

In short: one *does* often have to prioritise.

Once one acknowledges that fact, it becomes a matter of deciding how the money is most efficiently spend. When there is an acute issue of starvation, then clearly food should be prioritised...but as said by others, this can't be a long-term solution (and in fact, will have an adverse effect when applied long-term, because it destroys the local economy). Now, projects that makes them learn (in a better way) to grow food, are much, much more valuable in the long run.

Now, as for laptops...I don't know; it really doesn't seem that wiortwhile, compared to the myriads of other things that could be done with this money. Sure, you can do both things; but it still is less efficient then when your budget is spend on more useful things. And as far as usefulnes goes, as is said earlier: there are no conclusive educational benefits being shown when laptops are used (compared to other teaching material). Even the most scientific research can not show any clear advantage, which rather indicates that, even if there is one, it can't be that big a difference. So that leaves us with the question if the money couldn't be better spend, maybe on projects who *have* proven to be of considerable benefit.

Re:On the day that Nigeria buys 1 million of these

[Anonymous Coward]

Because we all know how well Linux advocates function in society.

"Windows sux! Lunix 4eva! Down with faux news!"

Children's Health!

[pr0digy25]

Among the objections are concerns about the effect of extensive laptop use on children's health

I guess the Indian officials saw the Dell Fireball and decided to err on the side of safety.

Laptop / child

[p33p3r]

Let's see..., 260 million children of school age in India times $175 per laptop (yeah right) times 67.34 Rupees per dollar equals CHA-CHING!!!
No wonder the government doesn't think it's feasible.

Article is from July 3

[Jecel Assumpcao Jr]

Given that we haven't heard more about this since then I am not taking it too seriously. Here in Brazil we have lots of similar articles where some government official is interviewed and claims "Brazil rejects OLPC". But that official is not involved in the decision process and those who are continue to be very positive about it.

Negroponte's condescension

[PinchDuck]

Apparently the Indian government isn't going to bow to what the white folks think is best for them. Good for India! Negroponte has deigned to create a solution in search of a problem, but his "beneficiaries" have other ideas.

looks like hrd didnt get their bribe

[Anonymous Coward]

this is a pretty obvious territorial me too cry. india is notorious for requiring bribes to gevernment officials to get anything done. health effects of computer use are well known, being called ergonomics. the fact that hrd assumes that children will be exposed to "intense" computer use shows they have an axe to grind.

as far as no industrialised nations using this, it is because they do not need to. 1st world nations have money, and quality of life. children are exposed to pc's in schools. we have universal education, healthcare, working toilets etc. india is a shithole. there was an article a while ago that 50% of some of their elected reps do not even have a working toilet. their govt tried to pass a resolution that members must get one, as a an example to others that open defecation is unhealthy. shows how full of shit they really are.

as far as wanting to give children a pc early, there s a simple reason for this. in 1st world nations there is a requirement that children must attend schools to a certain age. this was passed long ago to prevent parents from forcing their children to work as cheap/free labor. therefore it is not really essential to get pc's to children early in such countries. india does not guarantee universal education, and aside from the wealthy elite, there are many deserving children that could benefit from education, and in turn benefit humanity when they get older.

having said this, i can ask one question. who the fuck is hrd to accept or reject such proposals? do they speak for india? its people? its poor? obviously they have done precious little to improve the life of india's poor so far. the term "reject" is classical rhetoric, that implies they had any authority in the first place. another thing to note is that if a large poor section of india gets a working computer, connected to the web, it will very much circumvent the human resources development ministry in india. im guessing this group is responsible for maintaining a cheap labour supply in india to serve the interests of the rich, because it sure as hell wasnt the poor, illiterate, subsitence level majority that put them in office.

these same fud arguments came up when it was time for universal education, when it was time to free the slaves, when it was time to allow women to vote and own property, etc, etc. hrd isn't fooling anyone with their phony concern, and should actually be punished for this stance. if opportunity is denied the indian people to build their lives and country because some branch of beurocrats dont like it, india will always be a shithole.

Re:looks like hrd didnt get their bribe

[Vulcann]

Thank you for providing a bold opinion on a country ..Mr. Anonymous Coward. +1 Interesting my ass. Despite colonial occupation that bled our country for hundreds of years, within the span of 50 years of independence we have an educated middle class that outnumbers the TOTAL NUMBER OF PEOPLE in the US. America gained independence so long ago that people like you seem to have forgotten the burden a nation has to carry to set everything right again.

india does not guarantee universal education

How about free education to all women until senior college ? How about free education to all the lower castes in society all the way upto and including the IITs and IIMs. Get a clue bitch!

who the fuck is hrd to accept or reject such proposals? do they speak for india? its people? its poor? obviously they have done precious little to improve the life of india's poor so far.

Do you have any idea how full of crap you are. Your country is being run by a president who feels no qualms about policing the whole world. Does he speak for the whole world ? He was voted in an enormously suspect election in how own country to begin with! As far as us being poor, yes were poor. But we have gone from becoming a basket case country that had famine and starvation in the early years of our independence to becoming a hub of information technology and a net food exporter within the span of 30 odd years. Our economy is growing second only to China. So dont bullshit me about how "precious little" the country has progressed. We have big problems but we have fixed bigger ones already.

I wont even bother replying to the rest of your comments because you have amply shown that despite being from an "advanced society" your just as bigoted and moronic as any bovine idiot one could find.

Re:looks like hrd didnt get their bribe

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know where you live Vulcan but you don't seem to know india's current reality.
You are correct when you say that education is free, but education just doesn't work in India (except in the south like in Kerala). I am talking about the primary school. Teachers in the public school often don't come to teach and children don't attend the school regularly. The result is that most of the children cannot read and write ! Indians are very proud but have to face the reality. And what about the cast system and gender equality ? As you say some laws are there but as usual in India nobody respect them. What is the center of indian's system ? : bribes.
Sorry to say that but it is the reality we face everyday in our project. We are an NGO working for the education in rural area of north India. http://www.anthonycharity.org/

i think what everyone is overlooking some basic fa

[harlemjoe]

1. one laptop per child demands a hell of a lot in terms of teacher training. Any such program would have to be gradually introduced, as most teachers have never used a computer themselves, forget using it as an educational tool.

2. i highly doubt the laptop supports all of India's 33-odd "recognized languages", disregarding others commonly taught in schools (Arabic, Farsi, etc). The vernacular lobbies would have a field day claiming that the government is deliberately excluding their languages. Which is a valid point. People would sue the government and the education boards.

3. kids in India are already prone to watching excessive amounts of television. Many parents therefore worry that sitting in front of a laptop will "strain their eyes". This sounds stupid but its actually a very commonly held widespread belief across the country. Growing up there myself, none of us were allowed more than half an hour or an hour of TV a day. Remember, parents of these children grew up without tvs, or if they had any, there were only 2 or 3 channels. they therefore instinctively challenge the health effects of all screen-based technologies, excluding movies, which are common and popular.

4. working with computers is a highly regarded profession in India -- being a cs engineer is pretty much the sexiest job anybody can hold -- kind of like being an i-banker in the US. with many kids already gravitating to computers, many public schools already having computer labs, why go all out and give each child a computer at what is a ridiculous cost?

5. The monthly salary for a teacher in rural india is around $100. School fees in public schools vary from around $3-$25 a month, depending on the area (cost is subsidized by govt). these laptops are too easy to steal. Corruption in India is a big big deal. I shudder to think of the implications of thousands of these going "missing" and reappearing on the black or grey markets. In truly poor areas, parents would happily pawn the device -- which can be as much as 2 or 3 months income to some of the poorest parents.

Far better to let charities, private schools and the free market distribute these devices, as and when needed. I can easily see this laptop becoming a valuable device for farmers and other small businesses in rural areas -- they can carry the thing into the fields, and use it for inventory, stock keeping, taxes etc. They need cheap computers far more than their kids do.

Re:i think what everyone is overlooking some basic

[harlemjoe]

oh yes and finally
6. Success in school is determined by performance in state-wide or national 'board' exams. If you are a needy scholarship student from rural areas (as many are), then these exams can make or break your future. Computers only detract from studying for written exams, many of which rely heavily on rote-learning. Yes, the system itself is flawed, but until the entire educational system itself is overhauled (not happening anytime soon), computing is more of an aside in public K-12 education, rather than the focus of it.

At least they'll be good for online dating...

[Anonymous Coward]

...which casts doubt as to what the pedagogical use for notebooks in class really is.

Well, at least the pretty ones will be able to do the online dating thing and get out of whatever third world cess-pool they happen to be living in (ie. learn how to use the internet, turn 18, find husband in a first world cess-pool).

If I were a guy in a third world country, though, I'd be pissed: all the hot girls would be leaving my country with this program. Maybe that's why the officials don't like the program: it cuts down on the number of starving hot girls that they can force to work for them as their prostitutes.

Meanwhile ..

[pan_sapiens]

... China welcomes the one child per laptop program with open arms.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Replacing Books and Paperwork

[DavidD_CA]

How can a school not see the benefit here?

If nothing else, the laptop can be used to replace traditional books and eliminate (or reduce) the need for traditional paperwork (by using web-based tests, grading, etc).

Granted, we don't want our next generation to grow up attached to their computers, but if the curriculum is designed properly, I can't see this happening. Why can't we just look at it as a new way to exchange information?

They want genuine MSFT (WGA) software, not Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Since Bill and Melinda can hardly dent the 45000M Warren Buffet will donate to their foundation with 200M donations for HIV drugs, I'm sure their foundation can branch out into "education", and provide Zero Dollar per Child PC's running Vista (or Windows Fundamentals thin client?) anywhere it looks like the OLTPC might be adopted.

realy necessary?

[amigabill]

Are computers really so necessary for survival that we need to give them to those who have never seen them before? My parents didn;t have computers in school. They didn't exist when my grandparents were in school. Cavemen didn't have them. And yet here we all are.

I'd hope that some degree of education is still possible without having computers involved. It'd suck for the rest of us if only the Amish have the skills to survive after WW3 or something breaks all our precious computers.

Re:realy necessary?

[rbarreira]

So why not throw away pens, pencils and books as well?

"+ive"

[Atario]

had a +ve impact

I stared at that for about 10 seconds before I realized it was not a typo, and meant "had a positive impact".

Which makes me wonder what things you interacted with as a child, so I can make a mental downmod against them regarding allowing any future kids I have to get near them. Sheesh.

Good thing you saved five characters' worth of typing on your 1530-character post, I guess...

Re:"+ive"

[RemovableBait]

had a +ve impact

I stared at that for about 10 seconds before I realized it was not a typo, and meant "had a positive impact".

Consider your geek license revoked, please hand it in on your way out.

Re:"+ive"

[Atario]

Consider your geek license revoked, please hand it in on your way out.

As soon as you hand in your Written English Language license, I'll follow suit. Of that, I'm plusve. Er, positiveve. Positive.

Re:"+ive"

[RemovableBait]

I'm posting on Slashdot. My "Written English License" expired years ago.

In all of the Physics and Engineering I have seen, '+ve' is accepted shorthand for 'positive'.

Re:What's good for the goose is good for the gande

[Angst Badger]

I see this a lot, too: asserting that computers are useful to students without actually providing a single concrete example of a way in which they actually are useful. I didn't start out cynical about computers in education; I spent years working in education, promoting the use of computers, and frankly didn't see many worthwhile results, with the possible exception of training a bunch of kids in the use of office software. If you have some experiences in this area to relate, I'd love to hear them.

eBook Donations could save money

[PanicByte]

Well, especially in very poor countries, i think it would be a very cost effective method to give out $100 laptops, for one reason, it may be hard to get a book publisher to donate a thousand books because it would cost them alot of money, however if you could get a book publisher to donate ebooks to put on the laptops, it wouldn't cost them anything to donate the ebooks. A high school algebra textbook probably cost $50 USD, so if they could load free ebooks onto the $100 laptop, it would end up saving governments lots of money. Plus even if a textbook publisher didn't want to donate ebooks, there are plenty of possible other sources for valuable learning materials.

Re:eBook Donations could save money

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually paper is cheap, the copyright is expensive. Same with CDs, blank cds costs a dollar, a recorded one costs 20 or more.

Re:eBook Donations could save money

[Anonymous Coward]

how about getting schools and students to donate their odler edition textbooks? since publishers try to force people to buy new books every 3 semesters, there must be a lot of older textbooks lying around that contain the same information as the newer ones.

One size fits all solution?

[jeffsenter]

It is probaably wise of India to reject spending $100,000,000 of their own money on laptops for children. India really doesn't have that kind of money and has many more pressing social needs, particularly in the field of health care.

India also varies in income from some of the poorest areas on earth to quite modern and industrialized areas filled with software engineers. One laptop per child probably wouldn't make sense for either the richest Indians or the poorest.

What might make sense for India is a far more limited program of purchasing laptops and training on how to use them for teachers in poor rural areas. This could give the teachers greater access to information and materials for the students.

There are other countries in which the laptop program might make more sense. Developing countries with some amount of money and some degree of public services might be the most appropriate. Vacinations and antibiotics are more important to a child's well-being than laptops and if a country is too poor to afford the most basic medicine for children than spending $100 per laptop is not the best use of money. Chile, Thailand, and Morocco are some potential countries that come to mind.

Like it will ever work anyway

[grrrl]

Seriously, is this scheme going to work anyway? After these laptops get distributed, is there any reason to assume that they _won't_ be taken into the 'care' of adults who either a) want to use them for themselves or b) want to control access? Are we relying on people doing 'the right thing' and letting the kids have unfettered access? Or are the laptops so crap noone else would want to use them? Seems as though anything worth having is not going to remain free-to-all for very long.

India is thinking clearly

[belmolis]

It looks like the Indian government has some clear thinkers. There is probably a great deal that they can do with the $100 million they'd have to spend to buy the laptops, not to mention the costs of training, support, and maintenance. If you weigh that against the vague and questionable benefits of giving young children laptops, they're probably making the right decision. The whole project strikes me as typical of the Media Lab: flashy but lacking in substance.

Re:India is thinking clearly

[Anonymous Coward]

There is probably a great deal that they can do with the $100 million they'd have to spend to buy the laptops,

Did you once again pull a number out of your fat ass?

Re:India is thinking clearly

[belmolis]

I suppose I might post as an anonymous coward too if I couldn't manage to make a coherent comment.

Health Reasons?

[voteforkerry78]

The One Laptop per Child program isn't aimed at the television-owning, entertainment-consuming upper class (i.e. possible fat kids). The kids in question are unhealthy because they are diseased, starving, being shot at (maybe not), etc. Why the hell is the Indian HRD talking about back and eye problems? It's not as if those problems will make much of a difference in the lives of the children in question (they don't make a difference in mine, at any rate).

And as for budget concerns, India will be much richer when its kids become as educated (or something) as the kids in the west.

What next?

[kicks-ass]

Oil cos to give out Rs 1 lakh cars to every family? when most dont even know how to drive? If they DID go ahead with the laptop program, the first thing next would be a donation of one Windows os from M$... catch em young they say.Already... "computer education" in india means learning Word, Powerpoint and Excel.why would any govt want to spend its money for that? And as harlemjoe pointed out,

these laptops are too easy to steal. Corruption in India is a big big deal. I shudder to think of the implications of thousands of these going "missing" and reappearing on the black or grey markets. In truly poor areas, parents would happily pawn the device -- which can be as much as 2 or 3 months income to some of the poorest parents.

There have been several schemes were things like sewing machines and the like were handed out for free for self employment.A lot of the machines mysteriously dissapeared along the distribution chain, and the few which did really get to the people were pawned off. Either way,most kids dont even have basic skills like literacy.I fail to see how a computer can help,expecialy when its in a foreign language(esp whn india has several dozen native languages) And even the kids who do get pc's most end up as gaming rigs...The general perception that computers can be used just as much for pr0n as they can be for education has started reaching the older generation. giving every kid a laptop is not a magic solution that will make all of India's problems go away

the real explanation

[Anonymous Coward]

In other words, the Indian commission got paid off by Microsoft.

Antithesis of interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

Who the hell would mod the parent as interesting? This guy is flat out racist. Parent should be modded as flamebait.

it's official...

[BarronVonGoerig]

humanity is in a perpetual state of self destruction

Re:What's good for the goose is good for the gande

[1u3hr]

I didn't start out cynical about computers in education; I spent years working in education, promoting the use of computers, and frankly didn't see many worthwhile results, with the possible exception of training a bunch of kids in the use of office software.

My daughter is 9 and I really don't see much point in her getting, or using, a computer for schoolwork any time soon. She uses mine as a game machine and to send photos to her friends (who she sees at school every day anyway). They have a computer class once a week, which seems to consist of using Wordpad or Paint to make simple documents. I wouldn't like them to spend more time using PCs, it's just a distraction from "real" learning.

However, the Negroponte plan, as I understand it, is meant to provide access to resources (eg, ebooks, the web) not available to students otherwise. (With my daughter, the problem is not access to books, it's persuading her to sit down and read them.) But the Indian report has a point: if the same amount of money was invested in printed books (which are extraordinarily cheap in India) and hiring more teachers, the results would likely be better than providing ebooks. Sadly, of course, if education had the budget priority to fund this programme, it would be at the expense of, not as well as, traditional tools.

criticism unjustified

[krayfx]

the cost of such a system is quite low. any government for that matter can invest on buying such a thing for a lot of purposes:
- arming rural farmers - wiring them to data centers for a wealth of information - from kind of crop that will be in demand in the coming season, weather patterns & steps to b taken to protect themselves, etc.
- fishermen who need advance warning systems.
- forest officers who need computing & info systems to connect to central systems for monitoring activities
...these are just afew uses i can think of - and rudimentary systems are already in place in india. im sure there are a ton of uses where they might need cheap computing on the go, i seriously think that such a computer which is easy to communicate/ good enough for regular emails, has a good keybrord, a good display /wide screen for various purposes, a beefier battery need to be installed/ handcrank's good for low-batt situation.

well, is it such a bad idea? probably its success lies in a range of application rather than restrict it only for school children.

Support infrastructure?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps it's because the required infrastructure to support these laptops doesn't exist. Even in the bigger cities, power cuts are the norm, and you just have to learn to live with them. Most villages typically only receive power for a few hours a day, to run irrigation pumps. Then there's the problem of networking, without which the laptop would not be as useful. I would think a better use of the government's money is to set up internet browsing centers in rural areas, for people who need them the most, like farmers. Then again, many farmers are illiterate, so I wonder how useful this will be.

Jack and Dump

[Anonymous Coward]

It's only a 'pump and dump' or jack and dump sceme.

In either case, Nego wants 'money' and he's 'farming' to
get his 'red badge of courage' 401K and retirement in
line with GWB's expanded dictatorship.

Toodles from the trenches!

Self Reliance

[kalyanbk]

Most Indians pride themselves on using their brains especially being blessed with mathematical skills. Many people I know in India can do mental arithmetic by themselves as efficient as a calculator. India has also produced several mathematicians and chess Grandmasters. Also people in India are taught to live without than with something for adaptability reasons. If you can live without a bed and are capable of sleeping on the floor, you can always adjust to a soft bed later on, but its much harder vice versa. We should not lose our in-built abilities/conditioning due to our usage of tools. Its this psyche that probably makes them rely on the self first. For example if you had to do an important task and rely heavily on the laptop and the net and then at a crucial moment you experience a power failure/battery down (a common occurrence here), a self reliant person can still find a way but a gadget reliant person maybe lost. However the laptop IMO can be introduced as a tool like a notebook/pen that we can use if needed after a certain level of "old school" education.

As Tomorrow Comes...

[vinodis]

As Tomorrow Comes... The sun rises... 430 million children in India. Less than half of them go to school. Nearly 17 million work for a living. ...The sun sets Over 81 million aged persons in India. 90% do not have access to social security. One third are below the poverty line.

You are overlooking the point of OLPC

[Charbax]

1. one laptop per child demands a hell of a lot in terms of teacher training. Any such program would have to be gradually introduced, as most teachers have never used a computer themselves, forget using it as an educational tool.

Children will take the laptops, learn everything about them much faster than teachers. And the teachers will learn how to use the laptops from the children.

2. i highly doubt the laptop supports all of India's 33-odd "recognized languages", disregarding others commonly taught in schools (Arabic, Farsi, etc). The vernacular lobbies would have a field day claiming that the government is deliberately excluding their languages. Which is a valid point. People would sue the government and the education boards.

OLPC is open-source, thus government can adapt the keyboard, the OS and the software for any language. And not a whole country gets the laptop at once, though some parts of each country are chosen, where every child gets it, and where effort to adapt the laptop to local language and culture is done.

3. kids in India are already prone to watching excessive amounts of television. (...)

Computers are better than Television, cause it's bidirectionnal while TV is a much more passive experience for the children.

4. (...) why go all out and give each child a computer at what is a ridiculous cost?

Ridiculous cost? The whole point of OLPC is to provide an extremely cheap x86-compatible computing experience. OLPC is 3-4 times faster than the Microsoft and Intel solution. It's possibly to realize OLPC now only because computer parts have become cheap enough so OLPC can be done.

5. (...) these laptops are too easy to steal.

Firstly students have no need to steal them from any other student if every child has his own. The color and design of the OLPC is done in a way so it is immediately reconized that it is some childs hardware. So if they appear on some black market the seller and the buyer will have the bad conscience knowing it has been stolen from a child. Thirdly it is 3-4 times cheaper than a conventional Microsoft and Intel laptop, thus at least 3 to 4 times less likely to be stolen.

It's probably got something to do with...

[christus_ae]

Those damn cricket playing Pakistanis that interfere with the lives of the Indian people.

Grain of salt here

[Ambidisastrous]

Word. Why is anyone taking India's argument at face value? Computers are not new, and kids born since the 1970s in developed countries have grown up staring at screens for hours a day. And it should be fairly clear that computer literacy is a useful skill in the modern world. Most accredited universities (in the U.S., at least) require access to a computer as part of the curriculum.

The following explanations are plausible:

• Pride. We think of India as a third-world country, but India is trying very hard to get rid of that reputation. Note that the HRD brought up that "no developed county has been chosen" for the progam -- this means that accepting the program groups India with the poorest of the world's poor. Now, some folks still cling to the notion of all Indians as half-naked, mud-caked peasants. That's not how India is. India has millions of citizens who would be considered middle-class or wealthy in the U.S -- in addition to a billion or so of the world's poorest. As with China (as we're finally realizing), India doesn't want to be pitied -- it wants to be feared.
• Economic independence. As an offshoot of the previous point, India is interested in developing its own industries, rather than relying on the goodwill of MIT and other external sponsors (give a man a fish/teach a man to fish). And it's made a good start. The plan, then, is to keep developing high-tech industry, focus on helping the well-educated fraction of its population keep up with the developed world, and gradually build the foundation for a modern economy.
• Business politics. Another poster mentioned that India is carefully courting Microsoft these days, among other major IT names -- and the OLPC program is very business-subversive. It runs Linux, it lasts for years longer than any existing laptop, it has a built-in wiki engine and other tools to let users create and share their own content, and is generally devised to prevent consumerism and vendor lock-in.

Going to School in India

[Anonymous Coward]

Before talking about $100 laptop per child in India, one needs to have an understanding of the current state of public/private education system in India. School children need much more basic things than $100 laptops - teachers, books, supplies and in some cases a roof!

The fact that India is striving to be a "knowledge" based economy is quite amazing. Under the wraps this kind of economy at best benefits 5-10% of the population. India needs to develop the infrastructure (including basic public education) before looking at $100 laptops.

Negroponte needs to spend his time convincing India to cut its defence spending by half and spend the money on Infrastruture :-)

If you have time, read this book on various "school going" experiences across India.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1570 916667?v=glance

-- Ravi

No eBook can match 25 cents per text book!

[Anonymous Coward]

A high school algebra textbook costs about 10 Rs or about 25 cents - and mostly gets reused by junior students next year.

Support of Important Native Languages in India...

[Anonymous Coward]

@harlemjoe

i highly doubt the laptop supports all of India's 33-odd "recognized languages", disregarding others commonly taught in schools (Arabic, Farsi, etc). The vernacular lobbies would have a field day claiming that the government is deliberately excluding their languages. Which is a valid point. People would sue the government and the education boards.

You're right, distributions of GNU / Linux don't support all 33-odd recognized languages in India. According to this place they only have 11+ Indic font packages and language packs supported. I'm not Indian but I assume these are the most popular third of the recognized languages in India.

These people could never support themselves. I don't know what they would do without generous Microsoft pouring money into their country. Just look at the spectatular support Microsoft has given them, so much innovation it makes me want to throw a chair! They have taken all those 33 recognized languages and lumped them into ONE.. Too bad the people of India didn't think of that first, just take all 33 languages and lump them into one, it's so easy! This ONE generic language pack was only released with Windows 2000 though; and for Windows XP there is no support at all.(except 3rd party?)

The Ministry of Human Resource Development of India really know what is best for their country. They wouldn't want to harm the relationship they have with a wealthy American company and lose money or even worse lose a mistress or two. And they definitely don't want to harm the relationship they have with the creator of that company and his wife. They have also been so generous to them. Bill and Melinda wouldn't stop the flow of donations to the fair and ethical body of government in India. They definitely wouldn't stop donating if India supported the OLPC project. And there is no way Bill and Melinda would stop donating if India publically sponsored GNU+Linux. Since their country already has the highest rates of adoption percentage out of any country I know of, it just wouldn't make sense for India to support GNU+Linux. They would have all 33-odd recognized languages in one operating system, for free. That would be impossible+silly. Preposterous!

Who's regressive?

[jkrise]

Regressive idealogies, particularly the ones that think women are only good for babies tend to reject that kind of knowledge.

How many women Presidents has gthe US of A had in it's long democracy?

Any how many women have been Prime Ministers / Chief Ministers in India? (Incidentally President is a figure-head in India... the real power is vested in the Cabinet and the Prime Minister).

Think before you Troll.

Re:Who's regressive?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a troll. Rural India is anything but progressive regarding the equality of women.

http://www.law-lib.utoronto.ca/diana/puneannotatio ns.htm

And the perception that many countries would like to limit Internet access (and uncensored news) to their populace is neither new nor paranoid.

If you hand a MILLION laptops with built in WiFi and mesh networking to children they are going to see a bigger part of the big picture. It will lead to change. Change makes control more difficult. For details ask the RIAA.

Re:Who's regressive?

[Jherek Carnelian]

Think before you Troll.

Read before you freak. You should have noted at least one reference to pasties in America.

1) How many dowries are paid each year in India?
2) How many brides are burned each year in India?
3) Who killed Phoolan Devi?

British East India Company

[Futurepower(R)]

Very good point about the history.

It's necessary to be very vigorous about what to accept and what to reject when being influenced by others.

But isn't this a case of rich people in India not wanting to accept that there are many poor people in their country, and therefore causing them to stay poor?

Both the U.S. and India have a lot of pride. People in both countries sometimes use their pride to blind themselves to things that need to be done.

Actually, computers in schools is a silly idea

[Marcos Eliziario]

If Bill Gates mother had not paid for that fscking remote mainframe terminal at young billy's school, we wouldn't need to waste our time everyday here at slashdot, looking for another oportunity to bash Microsoft. Indeed, we would still be bashing IBM just like our 70's predecessors used to do. So, I have to agree with you that computers in school have never shown any good results, ever.

Re:How about - You are far off..

[rmadhuram]

1. India is self sufficient in food. In fact, we export lots of food and provide free food to many neighboring countries for humanitarian reasons. 2. "starting to be recognized?" - Wake up and smell the coffee..

Give them a 80's Home Computer

[rmadhuram]

I think laptops are grossly over powerful for children's needs (I'm not talking about watching DVDs or playing 3D games). I wish we could mass produce 80's style home computers (ZX Spectrum, C64, Color Genie etc). Very light weight, easy to tinker with and learn, and infinite fun..

Ironic

[Anonymous Coward]

It's ironic that they dare mention a better use of the monies, while the Indian govenrment wastes millions on a regular basis on national ego enhancing undertakings like a ridiculous space program (with a long record of failures) and a Mickey Mouse nuclear weapons development, which deters no one while endangering the Indian population.

Jumping to conclusions

[sanspeak]

what Nicholas may not be kowing :

- Some government school teachers do not get salaries for months
- School teachers sometimes manager two three classes at the same time
- Some rural places, just nearby Mumbai have reported deaths due to malnutrition
- Kids in rural places can't even afford text books, pencils and other school stuff
- There is a great economical and digital divide in India, first you will have to educate the school staff to use laptops which is not easy
- I have seen many management graduates who seem to be ideal PPT and Excel guys, but they are nothing more than - Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V. Wikipedia, blogs and google is the only refuge for these guys. There is no originality.
- Do Nicholas realize how we are getting into the generation of bad readers ?. Too much of screen consumption is not just bad for your eyes but bad for brain too.
- I have seen some grocery store guys do bill calculation faster than a calculator and ofcourse faster than any financial wizard.
- Why do you so many programming guys, economists, doctors and accountants in India ? b'cos they were forced to use their brains. They didn't enjoy the luxury of electronics in their education system.
- Instead of laptops - Nicholas should concentrate on how to get these schools connected. How to share each other's resources and first streamline their management and operations
- Whith such a huge population and real estate problem where to these little guys keep their laptops, do they take the laptop to their homes, how do they carry their laptops, does he know how do these guys travel back to home, in bus, car, cycle or by walking, what kind of weather do these guys face ?

I think there are lot of other real-world issues to be handled by developing nations - primary health, primary education, corruption, infrastructure, etc etc.

You need to learn some history

[njdj]

Despite colonial occupation that bled our country for hundreds of years

That's what your politicians tell you. Find a non-politician who's 80 years old, who was there, and talk to them. India was better off under "colonial occupation" than it is today. The Brits didn't "bleed" India, on the contrary they unified it, built infrastructure (especially railways) and gave it a legal system.

A country should govern itself, not be governed by foreigners. But you have nothing to be proud of in what your politicians have done in the last 50 years.

Hoho

[Anonymous Coward]

"Ministry of Human Resource Development of India. Among the objections are concerns about the effect of extensive laptop use on children's health. Better uses for the monies, which would be required to roll out the OLPC project, are also named. Most insightful however is the observation that not one industrial country has so far implemented a similar program for its children, which casts doubt as to what the pedagogical use for notebooks in class really is."

Doesn't that sound so good, like a reponsibile ministry thats hard at work looking out for the health of people and considering 'seriously' the impact of a laptop on the health of these poor indian kids. Man this can't be the same country I live in, where poor kids are numerous, collecting garbage in the most dangerous environment, getting exposed to toxic chemcials in their workplace, where thay are forced to work in near slave labour conditions, and this is in urban centres, I'ven't even touched on rural areas.

More likely Negroponte tried to do the straight thing and sell it on the merits of the product and advantages to Indian Kids. These guys in the ministry couldn't care less about poor kids or anything for that matter that doesn't stand to benefit them directly. Cmon this is among the most corrupt third world countries and an inhumane soceity with hundreds of millions of people, get that HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS ON PEOPLE living in appaling conditions with no one even thinking about them. So don't let any Indian with false pride mislead you. All Negroponte has to do is work the system, either get pally with someone who can get things done, a fixer, or try bribing directly. This project will take off at light speed and the same minsitry will be singing a totally different tune, about how fantastic this project is for poor kids. This is how third world countries work, which his why they are third world countries.

OLPC India

[Anonymous Coward]

Mr. Negroponte is a convicted criminal in India. He has been convicted of defrauding the Indian government of $18 million dollars in 1990 during MediaLab Asia project. Mr. Negroponte must first do jail time before any project can be considered.

Frank Callipsiano
Interpol

Free computers are neccessary.

[Abrax]

Child or no it would be good for the world to actually own a free computer.

thats misstating

[Anonymous Coward]

In germany it is still not for every youth, but we do have "notebook" classes to test this, and it seems to be quite successfull as it motivates children to dive deeper into the presented material

Good call! (pun intended)

[billcopc]

I think this 100$ laptop gimmick is a load of crap. Kids don't need laptops, kids need to have the snot beat out of them so they can turn into productive, successful adults like the generations that preceded them. I'd rather see the governments spend 100$ on parenting classes for young expecting parents. Toss them 30-40 of them in a classroom, pay some loony teacher and yell some sense into these baby mamas. Better yet, toss them in the classroom, throw in some dynamite and run like a girl.. the world is overpopulated with morons, let's fix the people that are here before bringing new cletuses into the world.

The greatest flaw with the one-laptop-per-child idea is that we're looking at it as mature, responsible adults. Kids don't share the same attitude, and they certainly don't care about having a laptop everywhere they go. These things will probably get smashed, stolen or sold within weeks after the kids get a hold of them.

No money??!!

[sam0vi]

I guess India can't spend money on the education of the children of the low classes because they need it all fot their uberimportant nuclear program. There goes the "greatest democracy in the world" (adjust sarcasmmeter)

My perspective

[jay-be-em]

I'm currently a science teacher at a secondary school in sub-saharan africa. My opinion is that one day the concept of a computer for every student could help education tremendously; but I think that today the software to do this just isn't here.

What we need is better (free and open) educational software and material -- interactive text books complete with demos to illustrate abstract difficult to visualize concepts (I like the direction many of the vpython demos are heading for physics demos that I use with my students: http://physics.syr.edu/~salgado/software/vpython/ ), beautiful easy to read text, good content (I'm keeping my eye on wikibooks).

I imagine a physics tutorial program which would have demos on force, motion, an interactive ray-tracer, circuit simulation software, etc, alongside typical textbook text. Right now I find a lot of this stuff from various places. What we need is an integrated solution which brings all of this together into one simple easy to use program which reads an open, easy to use format.

As it is today, most of my students have maybe five (poor) text books in the course of 9 years of education. The cost of new textbooks each year would probably exceed or at least come close to the cost of buying a $100 laptop loaded with all the educational material a student will need for that period of time.

Re:My perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

i find this the most informative comment in the whole disscusion!

Titles to be damned...

[Pecisk]

Yikes, again sensacionalist title, seems to me Slashdot is also not free from such attitude. Please read it, because it provides more details than summary ever would do.

First, India says NO to *experimental* phase of OLPC. It is like - this project is still big unknown and we don't wanna take a risk, sorry, no. And article stays more details that it is not so much against OLPC project, as it is more about against that such projects are usually used to fail in third world countries.

One laptop per teacher?

[smchris]

I have to wonder whether there aren't plenty of countries poor enough that it would be useful to start with one laptop per teacher, one laptop per class, one laptop for school administration or some combination of the above.

Don't forget the lesson of the FreeGen radio. Nice recreational product for the First World. But it had to be subsidized for Africa. And many African countries didn't particularly _want_ their people to have ready access to a solar-powered radio. Closed the South Africa plant and ended up as a label for Chinese product.

They ARE if you have finite funds

[Moraelin]

Pretending that there's no dichotomy and you can do everything at the same time is actually the wrong premise, because it assumes that those countries have infinite funds. In practice, they don't. _That'_ where that dichotomy comes from.

The OLPC project expected India to fork over some billions of dollars for those laptops. That's where that dichotomy comes from.

Sure, in an ideal world, India would have infinite funds and could do that and everything else at the same time, and there would be no either-or choice ever. But in the Real World (TM) India has finite funds. Those billions for this would be translated 1-to-1 into less money for something else. To fork over that kind of money, India would have to provide less of something else to its population. Medical aid, infrastructure repairs, whatever. But something would have to be reduced by an equal sum.

Do you understand now? _That_ is where the exclusive choice comes from. That's what causes dichotomies. It's a "do we spend billions on X, or do we spend those billions on Y, because we don't have the money for both" kinda choice. So at some point you have to put on your thinking cap and decide "do I need X more than Y, or is it the other way around?"

And if you've RTFA, you've seen that that's just the kind of comparison and decision they've done. They looked at what they can do with the same money, and the conclusion was that even in education they can use it better than on importing laptops. They can build schools, educate more teachers, etc. And a good teacher will help kids more _and_ help more kids than a dumb laptop will.

Sure, we're nerds and probably a few thousands will jump in with their testimonies as to how a computer made them smart and taught them programming. It worked for me too. But look around you. Do you honestly believe that every little Tom, Dick and Harry will use it to that end? How many of your classmates had computers and never used them for anything more than games and surfing for porn when mommy isn't at home. A computer is just a tool, even if a powerful one. Just giving someone a computer won't auto-magically motivate them to learn programming or google for information. Just like giving someone a brush won't auto-magically make them the next Michelangelo, or giving them a typewriter won't auto-magically make them a novelist or playwright.

Yes, it could decide to be a grand scale social experiment and provide the feedback for others. But it would be a completely idiotic and irresponsible waste of its taxpayers' money. Such experiments are better done at a small scale, not nation-wide and involving a huge chunk of the government's budget. I mean, yes, what if it _is_ a clueless project?

OLPC is a crazy idea.

[jalfreize]

In India, there are basically two kinds of schools -- the high tuition, exclusive schools run by Christian Convents or rich, privately funded educational institutions, and the 'municipal' schools run by the government.
Most children that go to the former category of schools come from middle class/upper class families and already have access to computers at home.
Presumably, the OLPC program is for the second type of schools, which mostly children who live close to or below the poverty line attend. Most of these schools will have teachers who have never used computers, and who are likely to resent any drastic technological change such as computers in the classroom.
So, along with an OLPC program, the government would have to run a massive teacher-education program to teach the use of these computers in the classroom -- not to mention overhauling the coursework so that it makes effective use of these machines.
In addition, the government would have to put in place infrastructure to service and repair these laptops at affordable prices throughout India.
All of this to be done in a country of more than a billion people speaking hundreds of known languages and dialects.
When you think of these factors, those laptops are going to cost way more than the 100$ MIT claims.
I could go on and on about the fallacies of this scheme, but clearly, it would be crazy for India to adopt it at this point in time.
The government has wisely rubbished OLPC. India cannot progress from slates and chalks to laptop computers in one stroke. It has to progress at an organic rate and accept technology in education gradually, ensuring the teachers are comfortable with it before it gets to the children.

Re:OLPC is a crazy idea.

[mihalis]

They said most people in India would never adopt cellphones either.

Re:OLPC is a crazy idea.

[jalfreize]

Cellphones were never subsidised by the government. The Indian government never bought a mllion "10$" cellphones so that they could distribute them to poor villagers in remote ares of India.
However, through the mechanisms of a free market economy, this has become a reality in India today, and the government hasn't had to spend a dime in getting this done. It has actually generated huge revenue in the process.

There was a time when the government subsidised electronic communication in India. That was when it took months for anyone to get a landline connection.

Indians should learn from this -- there is no need for the government to spend millions on scams like the OLPC, when computers are going to make their way into Indian classrooms sooner or later.

OLPC seems irrelevant for an economy that's set to become the world's third largest by 2020. Now if MIT were paying the Indian government for access to Indian schools, that would be a different matter entirely.

Quebec funded similar programs

[TotoLeFoobar]

"Most insightful however is the observation that not one industrial country has so far implemented a similar program for its children"

I'm not the biggest fan of this "one laptop per child" idea (why not telecentres, public libraries, etc?), but a few years back, the government of Quebec (Canada) had a program which aimed to help families with children to buy a desktop computer for home and to connect it to the Internet. Students in universities also have access to special programs, not to mention that most universities, colleges and high schools have efficient computer labs. In other words, it's a form of government help.

To everyone making critics out there...

[vhogemann]

I recommend you to take a look at the OLPC site (http://www.laptop.org).

The project is amazing, it's not just about handling a laptop to a child... They're producing a collaborative environment called Sugar (using GTK, Gecko and Python), to help children share content. Also, they're working on educational content, and educational applications.

The mesh network idea is just incredible, it will make possible to the children create their own content, and share it with their colleages even where there's no access to the internet, since the wireless card keeps on running even when the laptop is on sleep state. It also make it possible to share internet access throght a large area, since every laptop act as a router.

It's really fantastic, and you can see that there is a real commitment behind this. And, since everything is OpenSource, YOU can help them! You can contribute wiht code, or content, or ideas!

Re:To everyone making critics out there...

[vicbastard]

Oh, please. OLPC is just one more academic boondoggle cooked up by an egomanic with visions of Nobel prizes. It's a near complete waste of time. A. The Indian government is right: laptops are unproven as an instructional method. Based on my experience teaching with laptops in some of the worst schools in the US, I believe that they are capable of delivering educational value. But the evidence is not there yet, and there needs to be good, reasonable experiments with this before stapped governments shell out millions on unproven technologies. B. The problems OLPC are trying to address are so great that no amount of open-source idealism and techno-utopist hard sell will get you past them. The problems need smart economic incentives and realistic entrepreneurialism to begin to be solve. And they will be solved. But not by a bunch of academics subsidized in the fantasies by rich, paternalistic foundations. C. There is no way on this planet that Dell, Apple, Lenovo, Microsoft, etc. will let some academic flash-in-the-pan undercut the next huge market for their products. These companies know that the big margins in the next ten years are in emerging markets. And they will offer fully functional (unlike OLPC) laptops and computer to the developing world at $100 and less before MIT. Here's the kicker: they will do a better job in this space than any NGO. Kudos to the Indian government for acting like adults when it comes to the education of children. More on this on my blog: http://vicsedblog.blogspot.com/

Re:To everyone making critics out there...

[vhogemann]

Im really sorry that you think like this.

I dont know about India, but here at Brazil, the OLPC makes a lot of sense. We already have the infra-structre necessary to deploy the laptops, there are already national standarts on education, so we can provide the needed content and books on a digital format.

So, our educational system is organizated enought to embrace the OLPC, and adapt it to our needs. That is the beauty of this project, since its open everyone can modify it, adapt it to their needs. It isnt a "one size fits all" solution, its geared towards adaptation.

You say that Microsoft and others can offer a "fully functional" before MIT. Define "fully functional", what makes you think the OLPC isnt functional? What a "fully functional" laptop can offer that the OLPC cant?

I said it was a bad idea from the start

[garwain]

the school board in my region has started a massive rollout of laptops (about 3 years ago), and now just as I predicted, the project has become a money pit due to lost/stolen/destroyed or otherwise damaged systems that need to be replaced. My big complaint when they stated was that the lower grades should be learning how to write and do simple math, so should not require a computer for every student. The higher grades who could have a legitimate use for a computer had good labs already in place and much easier to maintain than individual laptops! If the students needed more lab time than was available, set up another lab at a fraction of the cost of an IBook per child!

Re:What's good for the goose is good for the gande

[nem75]

However, the Negroponte plan, as I understand it, is meant to provide access to resources (eg, ebooks, the web) not available to students otherwise.

Funny. The plan, as I understand it, is meant to provide Negroponte access to resources (e.g. development aid money) not available to him otherwise. What with him selling the crapt^H^H^H^H^Hlaptops directly to the respective governments and asking them to buy one for each child in the country or none at all.

India HAS enough food to feed all citizens.

[Tungbo]

The problem is that many are too poor to afford them.

The earth produces many times the calories needed to feed all the world's population, if used efficiently.

The problem is poverty, lifestyle, and distribution. NOT scacity.

I think you're on the right track. THe $100 laptop may be best
used by small business people initially then by students.

Huh...

[GmAz]

Among the objections are concerns about the effect of extensive laptop use on children's health

So the use of a laptop superceeds malnutrition, lack of medical care, etc.

Oh...so much for western eyes

[gnufied]

India is not so much of a starving country, so as it seems to the western eyes. India's grain storage were spilling with wheat last year, alas if only it can reach those in need.Corruption and burecracy has taken its toll on food distribution programme, but India doesn't need and expect world to feed its huge population.You must be living under rock, but India is actually a big donor to the World food programme. India was 5th largest supplier of food to Iraq. http://www.wfp.org/operations/current_operations/R esUpdates/103600.pdf India supplies food and aid to countries like Bhutan,Nepal and other African countries.

Yeah, maybe, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

"The Second Self", by Sherry Turkle. Read it.

But if you're lazy: there's a chapter about how a computer was fundamental for a girl to reach maturity...

[Off-topic from now on]

Are you reading anonymous postings? Are you nuts or what? ;-)

Laptop more distraction than Edu Tool

[FutureExpressionist]

Having just completed an MS degree after being away from Univ for ~30 yrs, I can attest to the distraction of laptop computer in the classroom. While I can count on one hand the number of times someone looked up something during class for the benefit of the class, most of the laptops I observed in use during class were being used for playing games, instant messaging, viewing sports scores, and surfing. IT WAS A TOTAL DISTRACTION. India's decision to reject the offer shows a degree of understanding about the educational process that the egghead creators of this program don't seem to get. Much more benefit can be delivered by ensuring these same students have clean water to drink, and freedom from curable disease (Malaria). Then maybe they will be well enough to hear a teacher and participate in class.

Afraid to compete, are you?

[anandsr]

Yes, you would like them to be beggers forever. You wouldn't want them to become strong enough to compete. You dread the day when they become educated and come back to compete with you. Its not like the small number of software engineers are causing you enough problems.

I hate this attitude of feeding the people. Why do people think that giving handouts is the best way to solve poverty. Actually the only way to solve poverty is to educate the people. And the only way to educate the people is to want them to learn. It is not a simple task to make people want to learn. I think that the OLPC project can go a long way in making the children want to learn (whether their parents will allow them is a different matter). I hope some of the innovations that they have made result in cheaper durable and more friendly (to the children) computers so that eventually all children in the Developing countries can have access to them.

I am rather disappointed at the HRD ministers point of view. As it is in India, Education gets a very low priority over the handouts in the form of Subsidies. I know some places/circumstances when subsidies are required, but if they were putting more money into education we would have been better of. The whole problem is that Subsidies get converted into VOTES.

Yay

[drwho]

Well this is good...less competition from India in high tech is good for the rest of us.

Seriously, though, I think in a sense the Indian government is right. They have much more pressing problems.

I think the people in the US should first try to solve problems at home. There's still vast areas of the US without access to broadband. In today's content-right Internet, nothing is as much of a turn-off to Internet adoption as having to use a "56k" modem (it's in quotes becuase users hardly ever see that even that low speed).

I also think that computer education needs to change. There needs to be much less emphasis on training users how to write the next MySpace and more on solving problems around the town they live: more data collection, analysis, computer process control, etc. Get Joe's auto-body and the Hill Dairy to take advantage of modern computer technology.

May be they looked in the wrong places

[Conficio]

"Most insightful however is the observation that not one industrial country has so far implemented a similar program for its children, which casts doubt as to what the pedagogical use for notebooks in class really is."

As far as I know, Maine (a US state not a country) has a state funded program to outfit all its pupils with laptops (Apple?).

I think that contradicts the assertion above.

No, you think.

[jotaeleemeese]

Token figures in position of power do not demonstrate by any means a better position of women in society. Even several mulsim countries have had PMs or Presidents, that has not meant a better situation for women there.

The situation for women in India is dire. Castes, forced arranged marriages, and patriarchial societies are a common problem.

Women in the US and in most Western countries are in a far better position, in spite of not having political representation or power.

yay, abuse of moderation!

[drinkypoo]

Could someone please tell me just what about the above comment is flamebait? Perhaps it's time to add mandatory comments to moderations so we can more easily weed out abuse.

Funny...

[bADlOGIN]

In fact, this middle class is growing in leaps and bounds.

Completely unrelated to the fact the the US middle class is shrinking, I suppose?

digital divide

[smallcaps]

the whole point of the OLPC is to blur out the digital divide that has essentially defined social class and rank in our techno-society. you chumps in north america seem to take for granted that you can come home, eat a big mac and surf for pr0n as easy as cheating on your wife or avoiding any type of physical exercise. the reason that "third world" children need this is because without the OLPC they would have never even seen what a web browser looks like, let alone do anything productive (like you, yeah you.. the one shopping on newegg and sipping on the milk shake). who cares if these children only use the notebook for video games (which improves hand-eye coordination) or simply read the news on their favorite webpage. the point is that they are becoming familiar with the technology and in turn, raising the entire paradigm of technology familiarity in their own society and thus hopefully taking a step in the right direction so that future generations will be able to continue to integrate and use the technology that just one generation ago, was holding their societies development down in the first place.