Everybody Loves the Wii

1up is reporting on Ubisoft's enthusiastic adoption of the Wii platform. They'd previously only had two titles announced for the system (Red Steel and a Rayman game), but now claim to have seven different titles in production. From the article: "Ubisoft North America President Laurent Detoc ... praised the Wii several times during the panel, stating that he expects it to have 'a large audience and market.' He also stated that he personally felt that in a time when fewer and fewer games appeal to him, the Wii offers plenty of enjoyment. 'The first time I picked up that sucker I couldn't stop playing it.'" Ars Technica is also reporting that EA is gung-ho about the system. From that article: "EA not only indicated that they are taking the Wii and DS seriously, but the company also hinted that they will follow Nintendo's guidance and release games at or near the $49.99 price point. Nintendo has urged developers and publishers to respect the $49.99 price point, believing that it reflects a value advantage over other consoles. EA did not offer a firm commitment to that pricing, contrary to reports elsewhere."

Comments

A game idea: NSFW

[Ohreally_factor]

I just had a really sick idea for a game that would take full advantage of the Wiimote: Nintendo Bukkake 2006!

I'll leave the terrible details to your imagination.

Re:A game idea: NSFW

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude Nintendo's on top of it. Princess Peach Gangbang is slated for a Q3 2007 release.

Re:A game idea: NSFW

[interiot]

Another game: Monica '95. There could be different mini-games... one where you have to aim for a specific location on a blue dress... another minigame where the Wiimote functions as a cigar... the possibilities are endless.

Re:A game idea: NSFW

[another_fanboy]

There's always Samus...

Re:A game idea: NSFW

[Kesch]

So... This would be a multiplayer game then?

Re:A game idea: NSFW

[Wdomburg]

There's also Princess Daisy, Zelda, and Sheik. And I suppose Kammy Koopa, Toadette, Samus, and Birdo... assuming someone out there is turned on by pink dinosaurs. Judging by some of the erotic anthropomorphic galleries on the web, I'm sure there is.

Re:A game idea: NSFW

[Wdomburg]

Well the weird thing is that he/she/it was only a transvestite in the english version of the manual. In the japanese release she was always just a she.

Re:A game idea: NSFW

[JanneM]

Nintendo Bukkake 2006!

So, it's an Udon recipe application then?

You might want to look up the normal meaning of the word before you assume everybody has the same special interests as you do.

Re:A game idea: NSFW

[Ohreally_factor]

I am both ashamed of my OP and ashamed to admit that I really like your idea. I could see a mini-game/end game where you have to shake the wiimote to get the President to say, "I. Did. Not. Have sex. With that woman. Miss Lewinsky."

Re:A game idea: NSFW

[heinousjay]

I've got another game idea! You can tug and pull on the wiimote to dislodge the stick from some people's anuses! It'll sell millions.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Lotsa games... now what?

[andrewman327]

From TFA: "On the same panel, Midway President David Zucker stated that his company has six titles in development for the Wii."

So we have games for the system. Now the question comes down to price points, marketing, and, oh yeah, features!

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[anjin-san 3]

Price points have already been confirmed to be reasonable: no more than $250 for the console, no more than $50 for the games.

Marketing is already taken care of. Go to any gaming forum (or just check previos slashdot threads) and witness the general excitement and anticipation for the Wii. This kind of attitude will trickle down to the average gaming public.

Features. Gee, it only plays games from every Nintendo console, the Genesis, and the TurboGrafx and it has free online play. Would you like it to cook breakfast for you or something?

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[trdrstv]

Don't forget Progressive Scan output, and at least Dolby Prologic surround sound.

Also that it can communicate with the DS, and send DS demos to it. That's just another cherry on top, but something I'll get some use out of.

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[andrewman327]

I know that it promises these things and that they sound wonderful. What I meant to say is that all that is left is watching what actually happens in this round of the console wars.

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[twistedsymphony]

Don't forget Progressive Scan output, and at least Dolby Prologic surround sound.

I should hope so, every console since the Dreamcast has supported those features.

I don't think it would be too much to ask that they guarante every game will support at least dolby digital 5.1, and 480p in 16:9. With the occasional 720p and 1080i titles where the developers feel it's appropriate.

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Man ...
Aeonflux on Blu-Ray is so much better then Blade-Runner was on VHS ...
The video/sound quality really makes up for the terrible content ...

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[Babbster]

With the occasional 720p and 1080i titles where the developers feel it's appropriate.

According to Nintendo, there will be no 720p or 1080i titles. They've stated multiple times, and in no uncertain terms, that the Wii will not have HD output.

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[trdrstv]

According to Nintendo, there will be no First Party 720p or 1080i titles.

Fixed that for you. Nintendo's Graphics standard for making Wii games is the same as the GameCube (480p, and to support progressive scan they need to offer component cables). The hardware can support it, unless they change their specs and it ends up weaker than the PS2.

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[NewWorldDan]

Which is to say, that most people, myself included, are waiting and hoping that the Wii is even half as good as indicated. I will at least find a way to take it for a test drive once its available. I also think it will play well with my 3 year old daughter, though she's more of a PC gamer. :)

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[generic-man]

You act like at EA meetings, you have a bunch of guys in suits saying, "well, this game could be more fun, but we really need to tighten up the graphics more." Haven't you ever played a game in higher-than-VGA resolution that you considered fun?

I really can't see myself playing a four-player game in split screen, looking at my 320x240 quadrant, thinking, "this is as good as it needs to be."

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[masklinn]

They don't care about hardcores, and their idiot fanbase doesn't realize it.

Hope you got your 10bucks for astroturfing, but last time I checked the only thing you could do by waving your PSP around was ruining the shit out of it.

Oh, and hardcore players don't care about graphics, they care about playing fun games. The only ones who care about graphics above anything else are teenagers and immature young adults.

Last, but not least, even if they somehow managed to antagonize the "hardcore (nintendo) players", the casual and non-gamers market are so much bigger it wouldn't matter even if they lost all of the hardcore market.

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[trdrstv]

I really can't see myself playing a four-player game in split screen, looking at my 320x240 quadrant, thinking, "this is as good as it needs to be."

Believe it or not, I can. Have you every played F-Zero GX ? It's a much prettier game if you're watching someone play it, rather than you playing. If you are playing, F-Zero is so intense, you hardly notice anything, but the immediate track ahead of you, or who's near you.

People think since Nintendo isn't putting an emphasis on HD graphics we're gonna magically be transported back to the Atari 2600 days... If they are building a system that is more powerful than the GC, and the GC can render graphics such as Metroid Prime, or RE4 with no load screens, then I'm happy.

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[generic-man]

Racing games seem like a special case. I remember Burnout 3 actually putting blur on everything around you when you drive really fast so you only notice what's straight ahead. FPSes like Halo are very frustrating to play in 320x240 by contrast; you can barely see well around you, and you actually need to in order to play the game.

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[Babbster]

If you've got sources for that information, do please share them. I've tried several permutations of Google searching, trying to find confirmation of what you say and every statement indicates that the Wii hardware will not support high-definition resolutions (720p/1080i/1080p) and will only support 480p and NTSC/PAL. There is no indication that this limitation is specific to a particular category of titles but rather, again, a limitation in the hardware itself.

I'm as hyped about the Wii as anyone, but the statements given by Nintendo on this issue are quite clear.

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[trdrstv]

That makes sence, however larger screen resolution won't compensate for that without a larger screen to render all that in, If the resolution is greater and the screen size is the same (doing split sceen), may end up being worse (especially for 3rd person games).

Then again I suppose that also shows how some games are simply better suited to splitscreen multiplayer, and some are better for online multiplayer. Starcraft 64 is a very competent port of Starcraft, but split-screen mutiplayer kills it, as the element of surprise is lost.

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[trdrstv]

Try the reverse.

If the Playstation 2 can render games in 720p, and a single game (GT4) in 1080i; and the Wii will have superior hardware in every way (Except disk capacity, they both use DVD9) then is there any reason Wii can't?

I would love any game reporter to ask a Nintendo Rep (Iwata, Shiggy, Reggie) that simple question. It's like having online games on the GameCube; despite Nintendo not doing it, there's no reason that someone like SEGA can't.

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[Babbster]

Actually, there is a reason. If the hardware output is restricted to 480p then it follows that you can't output 720p or 1080i (or 768p or any of the other HD/PC resolutions). It's really not that hard to figure out. They (Nintendo, Iwata-san and company) have said many times that the Wii will not output HD signals. On the other hand, neither Sony nor Microsoft made that claim of the Xbox (obviously) or the PS2. If your logic holds, then why didn't the Gamecube have any 720p or 1080i games?

Until official specifications are released to the public, I can only go by Nintendo's word that the Wii will not support HD resolutions. Third-parties (e.g., you) overhyping the capabilities of the console, particularly sight unseen, certainly don't do Nintendo any favors.

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[vux984]

If your logic holds, then why didn't the Gamecube have any 720p or 1080i games?

Agreed. Moreover, this is not a hardware limitation issue per se; its a philosophy.

By leaving HD out this round, they change the value proposition. Lets face it most of us will not have an HDTV in the lifespan of the Wii. HDTV is definately the next big thing, and sales are skyrocketing, but it will be several years yet before "everyone has one".

So... consider a game getting the 3 way port. Yeah, the Wii has weaker hardware, but it only needs to push 1/4 the pixels, so it can still run the same games of the same depth and complexity as the other two consoles. Granted the picture quality won't be as good... but that only affects a minority of the playerbase, while they ALL benefit from the lower price.

For someone without an HDTV its almost a ripoff buying hardware they can't benefit from. If you -don't- have an hdtv shelling out the premium for a PS3 to cover a blueray player you can't properly use is almost absurd.

As someone with an HDTV, I'd have loved to see the Wii support it, but given the price difference, I won't feel ripped off in the least that it doesn't. That I really like the direction Nintendo is going with Wii in terms of the controller etc doesn't hurt either.

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[be-fan]

2% my ass. The difference between HD and SD is night and day. I watched the World Cup in HD for the first time this summer, and it was incredible. You could actually pick out player's faces when they were on the far side of the field, without straining to hear the announcer to figure out who had the ball. Don't think the increased fidelity isn't going to translate to gaming.

Moreover, your tradeoff is imaginary. 3D is inherently a vector graphics format --- you don't need to do any more artistic work to take advantage of higher pixel resolution. Zelda TP in HD would've taken the same amount of time to develop, but you'd actually be able to make out stuff in the the expansive vistas, instead of having everything appear indistinct due to lack of resolution.

The lack of HD isn't there to make development cheaper (the more limited polygon pushing power, the lack of shaders, etc do that). The lack of HD is just so Nintendo can get away with just a die shrink of the Dolphin GPU, without having to go back and change the circuit design to get a higher clockspeed or more pipelines. The entertaining thing is that most Wii fans are perfectly happy paying $250 for the Wii, despite the fact that it probably doesn't cost Nintendo any more to make than the $99 GC.*

*) Seriously. If they make the chips on a 90nm process, they'll be able to put both Hollywood and Broadway on a chip 1/4th the size of just the Xenon in the XBox 360. The thing is going to be dirt-cheap to make.

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[be-fan]

Says the Nintendo fan? Who in the last two generations (N64 and GC) had a console that could do pretty games, but with precious little good content to play on them?

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[be-fan]

Actually, check the stats sometime. The casual gaming market (as represented by the sims, etc) is quite a bit smaller than the "hardcore" gaming market. As for non-gamers --- well, they don't play games. It's possible that Nintendo might get them to play games, but that's a big "if".

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[justchris]

You're wrong about two separate things in that comment.

While you're correct that 3D is a vector format and no more work is needed to take advantage of greater picture resolution, you forget several things. At higher resolutions, you need higher polygon count models, or the models begin to look blocky. The Wii can use those exact same models, it just doesn't require them. More important than polygons, though, is the textures. You have to design completely new textures, textures which would need to be much, much more in-depth at higher resolutions, or they will look blurry to the point of uselessness. The Wii can still use those more complex textures, but you won't be able to tell the difference because of the lower resolution.

So what it comes down to is, with HD you're required to have more polygons and more complex textures, which you can then port to the Wii with no problems. However, if you design specifically for the Wii, you can get away with fewer polygons and simpler textures, so a game developed for the Wii alone will be cheaper, whereas a game developed for the PS3 or 360 won't need new models and textures to be ported.

The second thing you're wrong about is the CPU and GPU just being die shrinks. That's very, very wrong. The CPU & GPU began development in early to mid 2005. They are based on the processors in the GC, but they are still being significantly modified and upgraded. Nintendo has paid IBM and ATI to design modified versions of the chips they originally provided them (well, the GPU was provided by ArtX, but that company was bought by ATI).

Because of this, and many other things, the Wii will cost Nintendo much more to produce than the $99 GC. In fact, Nintendo has already said that they will not charge more than $250 for the Wii, and it may very well be the first console they lose money on the sale of, but if so it will be by no more than $5 per console sold. I vaguely remember reading an article somewhere that says they began console production back in June, and that they hope to reduce production costs enough by release to make a profit on each console sold.

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[cduffy]

The casual gaming market (as represented by the sims, etc) is quite a bit smaller than the "hardcore" gaming market.

Ya know, it wasn't always that way. Remember the 80s, when every family with kids and a little spare cash had a Nintendo? When the most popular games out there were ones which weren't targeted only at "hardcore" gamers, but were accessible to just about everyone?

My impression is that Nintendo's marketing arm is trying to bring back something of those times -- and (though the Internet may now fill much of the niche that the SNES and such did back then) I wish them the best. As a busy adult with some other members of my household who are home a fair bit of time each day, enjoy retrogaming (the most frequently used console systems here lately are the old SEGA and SNES units) and are on a limited budget, I can absolutely see an untapped market here: Fun, low-entry-cost games built to target a comparatively inexpensive console. Nobody in my house is about to buy an XBox 360 or a PS3 -- we just don't have the budget -- but I can certainly see us getting a Wii.

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[EastCoastSurfer]

The casual gaming market (as represented by the sims, etc) is quite a bit smaller than the "hardcore" gaming market.

Isn't The Sims one of the best selling games of all time? If it's a casual game, then the casual gaming market seems to be quite large.

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[shadwstalkr]

Man, that makes me feel like an old fart. Remember when the only reason a game cost more than $25 was because it had a battery pack?

I bet it's a lot more expensive to press CDs than manufacture ROM cartridges though, right?

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[be-fan]

The Sims is the best selling game of all time... on the PC. However, the PC gaming market is only 1/4th as large as the console gaming market. Moreover, while the Sims may have outsold specific games in other genres, its sales are still small compared to the overall sales of games in other genres. That is to say its very hard to extrapolate the size of the casual gaming market just from sales of one game. The Sims may have sold 16 million copies, but hundreds of millions of other games are being sold in all the non-casual genres.

It is very possible that sales of "The Sims" might hint at a large untapped market that exists. However, until that market starts buying games at the same rate as the "hardcore" market, it's silly to say that its a larger (ie: potentially more profitable) one.

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[marshallbanana6]

Of course not silly. But you know, development is always the highest cost. And well, if you adjust for inflation, you're really getting as good of or better deal now, considering how much more development goes into games. (Not to say that necessarily makes a game better, just looking at profit margins really.)

Re:Lotsa games... now what?

[marshallbanana6]

But certainly you forget that the casual gaming market is not only the sims. It's everyone who plays online poker, or chess, or Go! No, I think it's pretty large, and I think when people see what Wii can offer them, a lot of them will try it out.

Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

Ubisoft loves the fact that they can dump slightly tweaked GameCube games to the Wii and still charge full retail price!

The reaction to the Wii has been pretty interesting:

Initially there was the hype and the "Nintendo will change the gaming world with innovation"
Then there was the stupid name change that caused a lot of people to stop and rethink the system
Then the first games started to be shown and people started the "I don't care about graphics" Wii rationalization
And now we are seeing that Wii games are going to most likely be 50 dollars

After all the talk about 'innovation' are gamers going to want to spend full price for slightly upgraded GameCube games with pointing/swinging control added in 2007 and on?

Re:Translation

[datajack]

After all the talk about 'innovation' are gamers going to want to spend full price for slightly upgraded GameCube games with pointing/swinging control added in 2007 and on?

Hell no, I'm eagerly awaiting essentially the same games that I got last year, but an innovative higher resolution graphics, and all the extra fun of a higher price-point.

Re:Translation

[digitrev]

After all the talk about 'innovation' are gamers going to want to spend full price for slightly upgraded GameCube games with pointing/swinging control added in 2007 and on?

Take a look at all the kids demanding FFVII on the PS3. The dev teams are doing what they always do: trying to make money. If there's a market for it, they'll do it.

Re:Translation

[(A)*(B)!0_-]

Just announced - $59.95: The Game and $59.95 II: Pre-Rendered High-Res Logo Animation. Get in line for yours today.

Re:Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

The Wii doesn't really belong being categorized with either the Gamecube/XBox/PS2 generation of technology or the XBox 360/PS3 generation of technology; it is entirely its own beast. If you look closely at the games that are currently under production what you will notice is that the models are (mostly) free of polygonalization artifacts, and the textures are highly detailed; if I were to make a guess, in textured polygon performance I would expect the Wii is as much of an improvement over the Gamecube as the XBox 360 is over the XBox. At the same time you will notice that the Wii doesn't have any normal mapped surfaces, or any other material effects; basically implies that the Wii doesn't have "Next Generation" shading capabilities.

Now the one thing I really know about this is that the advanced shaders (that may be absent on the Wii) are really only that important if you're trying to produce a photo-realistic game; in most Cell-Shaded or (old school) cartoonie graphics you're better off with better texture performance than any shader performance. The question is whether the only important graphics to produce are photorealistic?

Re:Translation

[digitrev]

Who said I'm defending their actions? I'm just pointing out the logic behind it. Personally, I think that all devs need to start doing something new. But with the budget's being pumped into video games, originality doesn't always end up paying off. So they end up cutting costs by reusing game engines, graphics, and minimizing the amount of actual work done in between games. And because the gaming market is no longer defined by the hardcore gamers, they can get away with it.

Re:Translation

[masklinn]

Yeah! Just like they did with the DS as opposed to the PSP! DS has lower quality graphics and the games are therefore crapola!

Oh wait...

Look dude, Nintendo is not hurting anything and especially not "gaming as we know it" (not the one I know and care about anyway), if anything they're trying to go back to the roots: fun games with an original style/gameplay/.... As in... not genericCarRace241384, myAmericanFootball5486311 or badlyRealizedFirstPlayerShooterWithAmazingerGraphi cs.

Re:Translation

[Kazzahdrane]

Less of the "kids" please - I wouldn't buy a PS3 just for a FFVII remake but it would certainly add one to the (very small so far) list of games I'd want for the system.

Re:Translation

[ravenshrike]

From the original graphics to the graphics the PS3 will be able to produce is not 'slight' by any means. Not to mention that they would probably expand the storyline rather than making a direct port except for the graphics. Although the battle system better be similar or a bunch of people are going to be majorly pissed.

Re:Translation

[Jafafa Hots]

Anyone who "stopped to rethink the platform" because of a name change is not a rational person.

Re:Translation

[LKM]

After all the talk about 'innovation' are gamers going to want to spend full price for slightly upgraded GameCube games with pointing/swinging control added in 2007 and on?

Are you seriously using the "not enough new shit for the price" argument against Nintendo?

Have you actually considered the alternatives? Sony? MS? Even higher prices, and even less new shit? Same games with higher res at twice the price? Does that truly sound better to you than what Nintendo has to offer?

Re:Translation

[LKM]

I like Animal Crossing and Brain Age. Beyond that though, there are slim pickings when it comes to picking out a more "mature" game.

Define "mature". You mean "mature" as in "Project Rub" (i.e. has sexual content)? Or "mature" as in "Nintendogs" (i.e. targets older people as well as younger ones)? Or "mature" as in "Metroid Prime" (i.e. violence)?

If you take your Wii hat off and put yourself in the mindset of a typical consumer, you're not going for Pokemon, you're going for GTA, Halo, or Metal Gear.

Uhm... Typical consumers actually do go for Pokémon, as sales numbers clearly have shown. Typical consumers do not go for GTA, Halo or Metal Gear. Typical adolescent gamers go for those games.

Re:Translation

[catprog]

The PS2 was actualy less powerfull then the GC.

Good price point...

[__aaclcg7560]

Hands down this should be the most loved game console for the price point (unlike other game consoles with a 3X price point). What's needed now is a good Star Wars game with some serious lightsaber action to keep the kids off the sofa.

Don't even need the Wii

[jpardey]

Haven't you heard about NintendHos for the DS?

Re:Don't even need the Wii

[jpardey]

Actually, it wouldn't. Trust me.

I assume you have heard of NintenDogs?

Re:Don't even need the Wii

[Grab]

Isn't that the logical successor to NintenDogs - NintenBitches...?

Re:Feedback Loop

[Avacar]

Yet we also have yet to see if quantity also equals quality. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I'd rather have a few awesome games than many half-baked games. Right now Wii is looking like it will be a popular system, so all the developers are announcing games for it. Only if those same developers make good games will it actually maintain its popularity.

Maybe not everybody

[Emmo213]

An interesting article, especially since yesterday I read some developers think it's underpowered. http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/nintendo/free-radical -wii-cant-handle-our-game-190723.php FTR, I'm looking forward to it.

Re:Maybe not everybody

[hal2814]

No, not "some developers." A developer as in the singular tense is all you've linked to here.

Re:Maybe not everybody

[Emmo213]

Touche. Hopefully this is the ONLY company that feels it's underpowered. Just pointing out that no, not everbody loves the Wii.

Re:Maybe not everybody

[b1t r0t]

I for one am saddened that yet another goddamn FPS won't be making it to the Wii.

Oh wait, no I'm not. You can go back to your playing with your X360 now.

Re:Maybe not everybody

[hal2814]

Fair enough. I imagine there will be quite a few folks here and there that have to work around horsepower issues; however, console developers have been dealing with such issues for a long time now. Many of them find rather inventive ways to get a game to do what they want it to with the hardware provided.

Re:Maybe not everybody

[Rithiur]

So Wii wont be getting ports that probably wouldn't work very well anyway due to the controller scheme? I would have expected that the controller is much more of a problem than the power. Nintendo has never really thrived on ports anyway. Best games on my Nintendo games collection have always been exclusives.

I, for one, wait Wii for the games designed FOR Wii. Isn't that the whole point of Wii anyway?

Re:Maybe not everybody

[masklinn]

Fun thing is how Capcom still somehow managed to release a (graphically) magnificient Resident Evil 4 on Gamecube...

I thing the truth is much closer to "we can't be bothered to optimize the game for each of the 3 consoles, so we're counting on raw power to make up for it, and the Wii has a lower raw unused power".

Re:Maybe not everybody

[Julian Morrison]

With any vaguely modern games box, there simply isn't any such thing as underpowered. Power defines the scope and prettiness of the game, but good games are possible within all modern power limits.

Also, I suspect a lower-powered box may be a win in some areas - it could broaden the range of game studios having a chance, take away some of the distracting focus on polishing the SFX. If your game is never going to match the 360 on pixel prettiness, it will have to compete on something else. Like eg: being more fun.

The actual gamer crowd.

[yeoua]

The Wii seems to appeal more to the people who actually game because of the games. The PS3 and XBOX360 seem to appeal to people who game because of the image (however yes, there is some good stuff there, but they are selling an image in addition to the games). Just look at all the new "gamers" who jumped on the Halo bandwagon who tout it as the best fps ever, when PC gamers have been fragging each other for years already with games that are better than Halo.

So yes, everyone who loves gaming loves the Wii (well... almost everyone), because it's bringing us back to our roots with the old school Nintendo stuff. All the people who play because it's the in thing to do right now, well... they probably don't want to look silly flailing around, so they'll go with the other options.

Me... I'll get the Wii first, the XBOX360 soon after it's price drop, and the PS3 when it gets a price drop in a year or two.

Re:The actual gamer crowd.

[avalys]

Ha, are you seriously suggesting that people play video games because it makes them look cool? Like buying Abercrombie shit?

"people who game because of the image" - the image?! What image? That of a fat, nerdy, anti-social geek with Cheetos slime all over his fingers?

Re:The actual gamer crowd.

[digitrev]

Well, it's not that hard of a sell anymore. Video games aren't just for the hardcore, the geeky, and the gamers. You'd be amazed how often non-geeks, and even anti-geeks, talk about the various video games. It's cool to own an XBox or a PS2. Real men can school their friends in Burnout. It's a simple matter of marketing. Games like FF and Zelda are still for geeks, but as soon as you mention console FPS & racers, or MMOs, and you're getting into the realm of the gamer cool. I know a guy who owns some racing games because the cars are cool. It's just the way it works out.

Re:The actual gamer crowd.

[ZakuSage]

Seems to me that people who like PS3 and Xbox like gaming the way it is, not that they're just "trying to look cool".

Re:The actual gamer crowd.

[joystickgenie]

I think the image he is talking about is the image that is making Xzibit put an Xbox 360 and a plasma screen tv in over half the cars he "pimps" and such.

Look at any of that type of show right now you see the Xbox 360 showing up everywhere. MTV and the like have grabbed it as one of the new in things and has blown it up into a status item.

Re:The actual gamer crowd.

[masklinn]

"like gaming the way it is"? as in "like crappy near-updates of something that's already been done hundreds of times"? Holly hell, and there I was thinking that gaming was "liking fun and original games to actually... well... have fun..."

Re:The actual gamer crowd.

[Chibi-Hikaru]

I can second this. I caught the end of a Pimp My Ride (atleast I assume that's what it was) where the cool super bitchin' feature of the kid's car was that it had three PSPs in the trunk stuck to conveyor belts that moved back and forth.

Re:The actual gamer crowd.

[ZakuSage]

Not every game is only a crappy patch of a game getting released every year. "gaming the way it is" means gaming using a controller, not a remote. Gaming using buttons, not motion sensing. Gaming with a compelling story, high production values, and controls that are not overly simplified. I like gaming the way it has been since the days of the NES, and Wii is not going to "revive" that spirit, it is going to change and threten to kill it with something that I and others aren't interested in.

Re:The actual gamer crowd.

[masklinn]

Not every game is only a crappy patch of a game getting released every year. "gaming the way it is" means gaming using a controller, not a remote. Gaming using buttons, not motion sensing.

Ok so that would be "gaming with buttons but not a stylus", "gaming with buttons but no vibration", "gaming with buttons but no analog pad", or "gaming with buttons but no more than 8 and god forbid you could use a free-movement controller like a mouse". Sorry mate, but your "gaming the way it is" is dead already, that's the thing called innovation.

Gaming with a compelling story, high production values, and controls that are not overly simplified

...is completely orthogonal to the actual controller.

it is going to change

Flash news, gaming has been changing for the last 30 years or so.

and threten to kill it with something that I and others aren't interested in.

If you're not interrested by the Wii's or the DS' innovations... don't buy it. If you get enough people not to buy it it'll just die down by itself.

That'll allow us to see who wants what.

Re:The actual gamer crowd.

[sjelkjd]

>>Just look at all the new "gamers" who jumped on the Halo bandwagon who tout it as the best fps ever, when PC gamers have been fragging each other for years already with games that are better than Halo.

What's with the gamer snobbery? Are you a better gamer than they are because you played wolf3d? Is it possible that the however million people who bought halo actually like it as a game? That they play it because it is fun?

Just because something is popular doesn't make it bad.

>> The Wii seems to appeal more to the people who actually game because of the games
With the implicit suggestion that the only "real" games are on the Wii, and all the games on xbox and playstation are "fake" games that people don't really enjoy, they just play them to look cool. The fact that most 3rd party games aren't on nintendo has nothing to do with it at all. Give me a break.

Re:The actual gamer crowd.

[Phisbut]

Gaming with a compelling story, high production values, and controls that are not overly simplified. I like gaming the way it has been since the days of the NES

Somehow, most people agree that "the days of the NES" was the "good ol' days", and that the first Mario side scroller was awesome (for its time, but still very good by retro standards). Let's see what it had, shall we?

• Compelling story : Big dragon kidnapped princess, italian plumber must save princess
• High production values... what the heck does that mean?
• Controls that are not overly simplified : 90% of the game is half of the D-pad (left and right), one button to jump, one button to either dash or shoot fireball.

Man, that game sure was boring, no wonder it didn't sell so well and nobody wants to play a similar game now.

A compelling story is what makes a movie good, not a game. I played Final Fantaxy X last month... it is indeed one very good movie, but I don't think I spent more than 40% of the time actually playing.

Re:The actual gamer crowd.

[ZakuSage]

Games on NES that had compelling stories, and relatively high production values for their time: Dragon Warrior 2 - 4, for example. SMB is just a bad example.

I'm not a fan of FFX either, and in fact I stopped playing it after saying "why am I playing this movie". I was, in fact, referring to games like Metal Gear Solid 2. Most Wii games seem to take a general concept involving the controller and then shove a game around it. This is contraty to most good games, where the gameplay and story are developed in step, and controls are an accessory to the game, not the other way around.

Re:The actual gamer crowd.

[Mattintosh]

Is it possible that the however million people who bought halo actually like it as a game?

Entirely. But I think his point was that they call it the "best FPS ever". And they're clearly wrong. That title obviously belongs to Deus Ex. He's just saying that these people pretend to be "hardcore" gamers because they think it makes them "cool". That makes them "posers". Posers are attracted to the PlayStation/Xbox brands more than the "kiddie" Nintendo brand that might make them "uncool" if they were to be seen playing one.

Personally, I fall into a category at the opposite end of the spectrum: the curmudgeon. I'm a Nintendo fanboy for life. I got my first NES when I was 8, I got the SNES when I was 13, the N64 when I was 16. I have one of every type of Nintendo system, with the exception of the Gameboy Color. Yes, that means I have a Virtual Boy. (I picked it up for $30 when Wal-mart was closing them out.) I play Nintendo games because I remember the "glory days" when I was a kid (NES and SNES era). I own a PSX, but only because I wanted to play FF7 and FF8 without glitches that emulators of the late 90's produced (CVGS, I'm looking at you). And also... you kids get off my lawn!

I think you know this already... I will buy a Wii. I will not buy an Xbox360 or a PS3.

Re:The actual gamer crowd.

[sjelkjd]

Perhaps, to them, it is the best FPS ever. I hope you're being sarcastic when refering to Deus Ex as the best FPS ever. Not that Deus is a bad game or anything. It's such a subjective thing - everyone has their own preferences. What I've noticed is that people tend to claim the first polished game that they've played in one genre as the "best ever." Probably because their view of that genre is largely defined by that game.

>>He's just saying that these people pretend to be "hardcore" gamers because they think it makes them "cool".

Yes, and I disagreed with it. I think people bought Halo because of several reasons, mainly because it was a good game - but not to be "cool." Halo 2 was such a success because it was a highly anticipated sequel to a platform-defining game. It was accessible. And I don't buy the poser/hardcore gamer dichotomy. I think it's more about what people like. A lot of people like to play Halo, and if those people don't include the traditional hardcore gamer, that doesn't make it a lesser game.

There are plenty of old-school gamers that will buy an xbox, or a ps3. It's not about poser vs. hardcore, or old-school vs. newbie. It's about what system has the games you want to play. Look at your case - a self-described nintendo fanboy picked up a ps2 because it had the games you wanted to play.

Wiimote: But does it run on Linux?

[yakhan451]

I'm looking forward to the Wii and playing around with the games. If the Wiimote turns out to be a decent pointing device, I'm also interested in how it may effect human-computer interaction on other machines.

I foresee the same sort of cutting-edgers (heh, ricers) who are playing with Compiz and XGL, hacking together a way to connect to the Wiimote and then tinkering with some wii-gestures to help interact with the desktop.

o Rotate the wand like a steering wheel to flip between tasks or virtual desktops.
o Point to the taskbar and lift it like a dumbell to trigger your Expose' clone.
o Jab a window to minimize it. Twist the 'knife' in and pull down to close the program.
o Amarok hanging again? Give it a few whacks with your 'club' to kill the process.

Goofy, I know. But if this wiimote takes off, maybe we'll see clones of this type of technology and, in time, see some more fun and intuitive metaphores for HCI.

Re:Wiimote: But does it run on Linux?

[AuMatar]

But why would you want to? None of those things are more intuitive than boxes to click or context menus, and all of them would take more time and more CPU power to detect. In other words- completely useless, like 99.9% of the stuff people talk about as WIMP replacements.

Re:Wiimote: But does it run on Linux?

[FleaPlus]

I'm looking forward to the Wii and playing around with the games. If the Wiimote turns out to be a decent pointing device, I'm also interested in how it may effect human-computer interaction on other machines.

Apparently the Wii Remote is going to operate using Bluetooth. Hopefully Nintendo won't try to obfuscate the protocol (if they're making a profit on the hardware itself, they won't have any reason to), and it'll be fairly easy to interface with.

Re:Wiimote: But does it run on Linux?

['nother poster]

So! It's not about a WIMP replacement, but using it as the P. I like the idea of beating a recalcitrant process to death. They use mouse gestures in some apps and games, why not Wiimote gestures? The existing WIMP/GUI environment isn't the be all end all of computer interface technology.

Re:Wiimote: But does it run on Linux?

[OglinTatas]

I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Re:Wiimote: But does it run on Linux?

[LKM]

Apparently the Wii Remote is going to operate using Bluetooth.

It's unclear whether it uses bluetooth to communicate with the locator bar, or with the console itself. Either way, to get all the data from it, you'll probably need to hook the bar up to your computer, too.

With Spore on the Wii by Thanksgiving 2007

[WillAffleckUW]

you know that I love the Wii!

Seriously, if you look at the Nintendo Wii game announcement page you see such a wide variety of gaming genres, designed to appeal to people who don't just want sports and FPS games, but also casual gamers, women and girls, and a heck of a lot of cross-releases of games that are normallly only available in Japan and China, but are now available for English (US/UK/EU) players as well.

What's not to love about the Wii?

Plus, it doesn't have that annoying choice of do I get Blu-Ray or HD-DVD so that I can wait until 2008 when I actually end up buying a $300 HDTV set and decide for myself which player I'll get for $100.

Obvious joke

[msuzio]

"'The first time I picked up that sucker I couldn't stop playing it.'"

I've always felt that way about my wee also... ;-)

(until they do the development cost math)

[ianscot]

Developers whose idea of a better game is bigger pixel counts will surely want to develop for the PS3 or the 360 -- at least until they realize how much more it costs to develop for those systems, that is. That's another aspect to the "GameCube II" angle your link derided.

"[The Wii] wasn't a whole new programming environment," Farrell said. "So we had a lot of tools and tech that work in that environment. So those costs--and again, I hate these broad generalizations--but they could be as little as a third of the high-end next-gen titles... Maybe the range is a quarter to a half."

Re:Feedback Loop

[trdrstv]

The Wii games we've seen so far are almost painful to look at

Metroid Prime 3 ?

Twilight Princess ?

Madden 07 - looks at least as good as the X-box version, and will support progressive scan & 16:9 mode.

These games look great so far, and there's a few months to go before launch.

Brilliant!

[posterlogo]

Remember back when it was still called the Revolution and relegated to be the interesting-but-not-that-cool little cousin of the XBox360/PS3? It really is amazing how the news reports, and developer/previewer feedback have done a 180! (Take that 360). I recall Nintendo constantly stating with their chill/laid back attitude that they were staying out of the console wars and aiming for a fun, friendly product for everyone, rather than just testosterone filled fan boys. Don't get me wrong, I wish I could get all three consoles, but with the great price point and developer support, not to mention the cool Wiimote, Nintendo has really changed my attitude towards them.

ratchet & clank

[paeki]

That would soo rule on the wii, I'd say.

The freedom of nothing to lose

[sterno]

The reality is that Nintendo's in an excellent position. They have a solid cash cow in the portable market and if the Wii was a total flop, it wouldn't kill them. Even if the Wii sucked they could reasonably plan to keep the market share they currently have with the Game Cube. This gives them the freedom to get a little bit experimental with the Wii and take a risk and this is why the Wii looks like it might be a winner. The Wii offers a unique experience and is cheap enough that owning one in addition to a PS3 or 360 isn't unreasonable.

For similar reasons, Microsoft is in a good position because they have piles of cash and big time cash cows in office software and operating systems. They can afford to lose a lot of money on the 360, so, once again, they aren't under a lot of pressure. Their approach is less risky though just evolving the platform a bit and more closely integrating the Live system into the unit.

Sony on the other hand is in a terrible position because the PS3 is basically the hopes and dreams of the entire company right now. They've been struggling for a while now, losing market share to cheap competitors in other realms of electronics. They are trying to use the PS3 to tie a lot of things together, a new high def video format, a new hardware platform, etc. If the PS3 flops, Sony is in a world of hurt. Even if it's moderately successful they may still be hurting depending on how much they lose per unit and how easily they can make those losses up on the back end.

Sony may pull things off but they are doubly cursed by high expectations and an almost desperate need for this to work out.

Re:The freedom of nothing to lose

[grapeape]

Did you bother to read what was posted. The point wasnt that MS was making money hand over fist..it was that even if the Xbox360 was a complete failure it wasnt going to hurt MS's bottomline too much they could afford a flop. Sony however has been loosing money in almost every market they are in, they have put all their eggs in one basket and the PS3 has to at least be moderately successful or it could be disasterous for the entire company.

Re:The freedom of nothing to lose

[rAiNsT0rm]

Well, if it counts for anything I left Sony after 4+ years simply because I am 100% certain that they will be out of business or bought out in the next two years.

The sheer number of blunders and bad business decisions is mind boggling. Take their CRT TV's. They built a multi-million dollar CRT factory in Pennsylvania and employed tons of people as well as an actual glass plant next door to make the glass for the CRT's... all while LCD's and HD and Plasma were already hitting the market. They have since basically shut those plants down and lost metric fuck-tons of money in the process. Amazingly this is only one example of litterally hundreds I could go over.

I have ZERO faith in the PS3 (and many developers and employees share my feelings). I have ZERO faith in Sony. I am also someone who believes in their convictions and left the company as a result. Not in any fanboy way at all, but I sincerely hope that Sony goes down for the count. There are few companies who deserve it more.

I am always amazed how anyone can be a technology fan or even an open source fan and continue to back Sony. Hell, Microsoft looks like a little naked white angel Natalie Portman in comparison.

I'm really hoping the Wii does well and changes the course of gaming away from the advertising/hollywood direction it is going. It is about the last hope to revitalize gaming and return it back to "fun" instead of "money."

Re:The freedom of nothing to lose

[Rydia]

Unless the investors start thinking two generations of huge losses are enough. As a shareholder in a powerful and productive corporation, I'd be damned if I let them spend an extremely unprofitable decade trying to "crash into" a market-leader position when that money could be used elsewhere to make everyone a lot more money.

Re:The freedom of nothing to lose

[heinousjay]

Holy shit you Sony fanboys really take this stuff personally.

You should relax a little, maybe unsnare your identity from the game console you apparently love. It's not healthy to be so wrapped up in something so stupid.

Re:The freedom of nothing to lose

[lordmatthias215]

The one argument I haveas far as MS is concerned is that while the company as a whole can afford for the 360 to flop, It would probably mean the end of the Xbox division (unless MS really is as dumb as they look sometimes). They lost money for each Xbox they sold, and are currently losing even more money for each 360 sold. While Live did a lot to alleviate this the past generation, I'm not sure that Live will help much this generation as Nintendo (and possibly Sony...?) plans to offer their online multiplayer service for free. Add to the equation the fact that the Live Arcade, made up mostly of games you can find free or cheaper for the PC, probably won't be able to compete against the Wii's Virtual Console with its library of most Nintendo (and Genesis and Turbografix-16) games previously published (along with new games by smaller devs). All of the sudden, the cash farm that kept the Xbox 1 alive last gen disappears. If that happens, the Xbox division of MS will be pretty deep in the red, and the project will probably be cut. After all, when it comes right down to it, MS is a software development company for the PC, not a video game console company. A similar predicament is likely to happen to Sony, should the PS3 fail (which is likely). At best, Sony cuts off the SCEA division, and focuses on its core market, which is consumer electronics. While the Playstation products are consumer electronics, there's a lot more to keeping it alive than there is with say, a TV. You have to make deals with developers (especially in Sony's case, as they have few second party devs, and I don't think they have any in-house studios), and market your games and such constantly, so that people keep coming back to buy games. With a TV, you just have to wow a person once every several years. So Nintendo has a leg up over the competition in the simple fact that video games is its core market. While this not only makes office beauacracy more stremlined, with only two lines of hardware to deal with in the whole company (not including future projects), it also allows Nintendo the ability to go for broke should it have to. It has no other markets to fall back on, but it doesn't have any other money pits to deal with either.

Re:The freedom of nothing to lose

[delinear]

The thing is, this is more than trying to get first place in the console market - it's trying to get first place in the total home entertainment unit market. Taking a long-sighted approach, this is probably more important than anything else MS could be doing as it has the potential to be far more lucrative than even their OS market. Imagine if every home had one of your boxes in the living room and everyone in that home was paying to download content from your internet tubes, or paying for storage for remote content and applications. And as media centres and PC's move closer together, getting early dominance of this market becomes even more important.

Re:The freedom of nothing to lose

[rAiNsT0rm]

Wow, I type four intelligent paragraphs and this is the best you can respond with, eh? I'm not wasting more time than it took to write this.

Easy sell

[dolson]

Man, I sure hope that IF Lucas Arts does release a lightsaber game that the commercials show the Star Wars Kid with a couple of Wiimotes in his hands... That would sell systems right there. That's money.

Re:Feedback Loop

[sehryan]

In my opinion, quality has always been the strong point of any Nintendo console, because of their solid first party games. The excitement with the Wii is that we can now look for more third party games to be developed than ever before. Sure, a lot of them might be crap, but there will be great games in those haystacks. Which means more great games total for the system. It is really a win-win.

6 Games for the UbiSoft Kings

[WillAffleckUW]

How many games for the EA Kings under the mountains?

Or are they Mortal Combat men doomed to spew out mostly sports and FPS games we could get on any console, admittedly with cool Wii wand effects that make them much more fun to play?

Re:6 Games for the UbiSoft Kings

[WillAffleckUW]

ah, so those are the lyrics.

Re:Feedback Loop

[Anonymous Coward]

Photorealistic graphics are for pussies that can't handle imagination.

Re:If gameplay is your thing..

[snuf23]

"Cute graphics doesn't appeal to me, nor does choppy PC framerate."

Wow you must have a shit video card! Or do you really think 2 7900GTX cards in SLI provide crappy framerates? The PC is hands down the best platform for simulation games.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Feedback Loop

[masklinn]

The Wii games we've seen so far are almost painful to look at

That's super duper cool. Guess what? It's the same for the DS/PSP match, the DS graphics are at a much lower level.

And you know what? No one cares, because the DS actually has fun games as in games that are actually games and not crappy PS2 ports, and by seeing the Raving Rabbids trailers I'm pretty sure that Rayman 4: Raving Rabbids will fucking rule.

Along with all the 1st party titles (Super Mario Galaxy, Legend of Zelda, SSB, ...)

Remember, Sam&Max Hit the Road was already ugly when it was released, and it's one of the games quite a few people are still in love with.

Let's get this out of the way

[Metroid72]

My Friend Is Working On A Wii Game
(Score:-1, Troll)
by Anonymous Coward on Multiple Wii/Nintendo Related posts.
One of my friends is currently working on a Wii game. I remember him being really excited about the system earlier this year and he was eager to get off the 360 game he was on and move on to something that is going to be fun and sell. What is strange is now that he has been doing Wii stuff for a while I asked him about a month ago how things were going and was he loving the Wii. His response was "eh..." Sounds like from his experience the Wii controller gets old pretty quickly. It doesn't even sound like he is planning on buying the system, or at least not this year.

OK, now let's move on to relevant comments about this discussion

Re:Let's get this out of the way

[SirSlud]

Much appreciated, that one ALWAYS nets a bunch of replies.

Re:Let's get this out of the way

[Tweekster]

pretty much.

the flaw of the troll is "since when is work supposed to be a fun time"

-1, Emotional

[weasello]

Is it sad that I got this huge wave of ... I don't know the feeling ... Pride? Overwhelming joy? It kind of feels like the feeling I got when a girl first said they liked me on IRC.

The overwhelming (almost literally.. *sniffle*) support for the Wii has really bolstered my hopes for Nintendo and I'm sure they'll do much better this time around. Watching companies cast aside their previous habits and adopt full-on support for the Wii is incredible.

And I picture it visually in my head - Ubi has 2 games in development, and everyone in the office goes down and checks out a beta. They all enjoy it so much and they all want in on the project. BAM, 7 more games in development.

For this fanboi, it puts a real big smile on my face.

Can you afford to alienate Nintendo?

[xenocide2]

Free Radical notwithstanding, can anyone afford not to say the Wii is radically different, entertaining and perfect? Obviously there's the risk of missing out on the next greatest platform, and maybe there it is flawless. But I have no way of telling who's afraid to expose the emporer and who's discussing the honest truth. And aside from EA stating they didn't like the Wii some time ago (and have since retracted, wisely), I don't see how this qualifies as news anymore.

I guess what I'm saying is that this is less news than it is "good publicity," and I'd much rather hear about the former than the latter.

From TFA

[Don_dumb]

he personally felt that in a time when fewer and fewer games appeal to him

So I am not the only one to think this then.
I go into a games shop or look at gamespot and see nothing I really want to play, perhaps HL2:Ep1 but I am not bothered enough to buy it. Oblivion and Call Of Duty 2 both appeal to me, but my PC wont play those games and I am just not going to update. Give me something original that doesn't drink my wallet for graphics cards, lets hope the Wii provides that answer, the controller may be a gimick but hopefuly it may stimulate some fresh gaming experiences.

Re:If gameplay is your thing..

[SirSlud]

You being a 3D engine programmer, you're not making games, you're making an engine. So surprise surprise, you'd love to work with more powerful hardware. I don't see how that makes Wii a disgrace, since all its guilty of is not costing 600$ to have its design focused on the aspect of the hardware that would let you play with more powerful hardware.

I'm a game programmer. I work in production, and I love making games on current gen systems because its always fun to figure out how to push the hardware to its limits to get the things you want in the game. How to cheat or fake certain things to get the graphics or the gameplay you want, whereas just programming it in the 'true' way would just give you 10 fps.

At any rate, since we both work on games and both are influenced by the flavour of the hardware and how that affects what we get to work with, I don't think we're exactly the most objective people on the matter. And it certainly doesn't make the Wii a 'disgrace', it just shifts the fun around on your team to others who might be dying of boredom by refactoring input APIs for what is essentially the same controller they were working on 6 years ago.

And you can still have fun on the Wii, its still a significant upgrade from all the current-gen systems.

Bluetooth AND infrared

[Optic7]

From what I understand, the infrared is going to give the "pointer/mouse" capability (communicating with the locator bar that you set up under the TV), with bluetooth handling everything else (buttons, gyroscope, accelerometer, etc).

Re:Bluetooth AND infrared

[FleaPlus]

From what I understand, the infrared is going to give the "pointer/mouse" capability (communicating with the locator bar that you set up under the TV), with bluetooth handling everything else (buttons, gyroscope, accelerometer, etc).

Where did you get that info from? According to the wiki article: "The controller communicates wirelessly with the console via short-range Bluetooth radio, with which it is possible to operate up to 4 controllers as far as 10 meters (approx. 33 ft.) from the console."

Of course, it's quite possible that maybe the locator bar emits infrared, which the Wii Remote then uses for localization, and then transmits that information back to the console via Bluetooth.

Re:Bluetooth AND infrared

[Optic7]

I think your last statement could be a more accurate description of what is going on than the way I described it. But some part of the controller's functionality is definitely based on infrared (or some other kind of light signal, though the black windows on the remote and on the sensor bar have an infrared vibe to them).

I read it somewhere that it used both bluetooth and infrared but I don't recall where that was (probably bits and pieces from various sources), and they didn't really give implementation details. We can infer some things though, given the locator bar, and the fact that at least some of the first hand impressions from E3 mentioned the "pointer" functionality not working if the little black window at the front of the remote wasn't facing the general direction of the locator bar and TV, i.e. if you hold the remote backwards.

I read the wiki article you linked and it also mentions something about this: "The controller features an optical sensor, allowing it to determine where it is pointing. This can cause some detection problems when bright or fluorescent lights are in the area, requiring the controller be calibrated to the sensor bar (see below). This is presumably because the controller uses the LEDs in the bar as a reference point." There's more about it in the "sensing" section in that wiki article.

Re:Bluetooth AND infrared

[Suddenly_Dead]

So, concisely:

The infrared signal from the "Sensor Bar" is used by the Wiimote for locational purposes. All actual two-way communication with the console occurs via Bluetooth.

If the Bluetooth interface is not obfuscated and it is easy to reverse engineer the sucker, all that's needed are a couple of infrared LEDs seperated exactly the same distance as the bar's.

And I'm one of the ones who was toying around with getting that section just right. Anandtech reported it that way, though I don't know if it's properly cited in the article. (We had some semi-conflicting information from IGN who actually called the LEDs "sensors", without going into more depth. They also went to say that the Wiimote has an optical sensor and described the bit about it being confused by bright lights, which kind of contradicted the "sensor" thing. IGN just screws things up.)

Re:Bluetooth AND infrared

[Optic7]

Yeah, that sounds like a good concise version of what is going on, but maybe I would say "used by the Wiimote to determine its own location (height, distance, and angle, but not rotation) in relation to the sensor bar."

Thanks for the Anandtech article - it cleared a lot of things up. So it sounds like both IGN and Anandtech are kind of mixing up their terminology a little. I think calling the bar a sensor bar is a misnomer, since it sounds like it's just emitting an infrared field, and the sensors are actually on the remote. I like how someone called it a "locator bar" instead.

I would love to see what that infrared field looks like. When I get one of these I'll have to fire up my video camera and see what it sees, since it registers infrared light.

Re:Bluetooth AND infrared

[Suddenly_Dead]

Calling it a "sensor bar" is probably just because that's what Nintendo themselves are calling it. "Sensor" sounds all hightech and fancy-like.

The funny thing about that is...

[Optic7]

That FPS games just flat out suck to play on consoles because of the controllers, while the Wii looks set to change that with its new controller. So the 360 and the PS3 can have their deluge of beautiful looking HDTV FPS games that you can't play for more than 15 minutes because they're uncontrollable. I'll stick to the beautiful looking standard definition FPS games that are a blast to play and super immersive that come out on the Wii.

I'm not planning to get an HDTV any time soon anyway, and I've played PS2 and xbox 360 games on my friend's HDTV and, sorry to say this, but the 360 games don't even look twice as good as the PS2. They look maybe 50% better, if I'm generous.

Re:If gameplay is your thing..

[kyashan]

Wow you must have a shit video card! Or do you really think 2 7900GTX cards in SLI provide crappy framerates? The PC is hands down the best platform for simulation games.

Since when a PC game ran at 60fps ? It usually takes at least a couple of generations of graphic cards. I like to work on consoles because their target is 60Hz.. or 30Hz at least. Hardly what you get from a Doom III as it ships.

Re:If gameplay is your thing..

[kyashan]

So surprise surprise, you'd love to work with more powerful hardware. I don't see how that makes Wii a disgrace

I specified it was a disgrace to me 8)

since we both work on games and both are influenced by the flavour of the hardware and how that affects what we get to work with, I don't think we're exactly the most objective people on the matter.

How am I not objective ? I'm not trying to preview sales, I'm only saying I don't like working on the Wii.

I'm a game programmer. I work in production, and I love making games on current gen systems because its always fun to figure out how to push the hardware to its limits to get the things you want in the game.

oh please, don't give me the "push the hardware limit" thing. If I want to push the limit of a fixed pipeline hardware, I'd rather work on the DS or cellphone games. I want to push the limit of actual current hardware ! I want to write shaders, implement new techniques, fiddle with parallel programming ..do what I've been doing on the 360 until a few months ago.

And you can still have fun on the Wii, its still a significant upgrade from all the current-gen systems.

How is it that on my desk there is a GameCube then ?! When XBox 360 development started, MS wasn't telling developers to keep working on the XBox, they were shipping G5s !

Re:It's the Mac effect.

[Jeppe Salvesen]

Haha. There's a reason why Steve Jobs (don't remember what the Nintendo honcho is called, so we'll stick to Steve) is a billionaire while you are not.

Wanna know?

Steve Jobs is interested in people in addition to technology. He realizes that he needs technology to make products that people like - because most people don't care about ghz and gb: They care about doing the task (whatever that is) efficiently in terms of time consumption. We are lazy so we don't like stuff to be more complicated than they have to.

What you dismiss as gimmicky, people unlike yourself would label as useful or ingenious.

Secondarily, they prefer not being embarassed of having a butt-ugly computer in their home when their in-laws or potential girlfriend visits ;)

Likewise, Nintendo attempts to make engaging games rather than technology showcases.

Re:It's the Mac effect.

[miro f]

interesting, last time I checked PCs were outselling Macs about 20:1 on the desktop...

Re:If gameplay is your thing..

[Trogre]

And how much does that cost?
Probably the same that a XBOX360, a GC, a PS2 and a decent PC(but unsuitable for gaming) put together

Probably yes, but what has that got to do with anythihng?

It would still run simulations much better than any console.

If you're seriously into simulations but can't afford the dosh, not a problem go get a PS3 and still play a decent approximation. But if you can afford it, a PC with a killer video card rig is a no-brainer. If you can't afford a PS3 (after the prices come down of course) then you're probably out of luck. The Wii just doesn't have the power.

Re:If gameplay is your thing..

[snuf23]

"Since when a PC game ran at 60fps ?"

Well if you are only running at a resolution comparable to 480p or even 720p the answer would be - most of the time on a decent computer.
I was running Doom 3 running at 1024x768 on the day it was released and getting framerates over 90FPS on a Nvidia 6800GT. 1280x1024 was still over 60 FPS most of the time. Now if you run it 480p which is the best you can get from Doom 3 on Xbox you get well over 100FPS.
And speaking of bad framerates, I believe it is the Xbox 360 version of Quake 4 that suffers from stuttering and slowdown versus a decent PC card which runs it silky smooth.
Oh yeah and the original comment was about simulations not first person shooters anyway.

Give me something that doesn't make me ill.

[guidryp]

At least you are just bored, the new titles make me sick. :-)

I find more and more games are locking me out as they move to more First Person Perspective (FPP) paradigms that make me motion sick (spare me your cures, been there done that).I have been a gamer since Arcade Lunar Lander, but now they are leaving me behind with 3d FPP everything.

I am a fan of Bioware and Black Ilse games. I have BG1,BG2,PT,NWN. But their next game Dragon Age, is going to FPP for exploration, which completely rules out the game for me. I really wanted to play this game, but now I won't and they won't have my money. One of my gaming buddies has the same problem.

Being a big Total Annhilation Fan, I am looking forward to Supreme Commander, maybe NWN2, both sequels to games I own, but after that nothing....

Re:Give me something that doesn't make me ill.

[Don_dumb]

As I am also a big fan of the Balders Gate series, perhaps a lack of real RPG games is the issue? The SW:KOTOR games were enjoyable, but short and I really didn't want to replay. (They also showed that you could write much better stories in the SW worlds than EpI-III, by using completely different eras than EpIV-VI)
Yes, I really dont see why everything has to be FPP, I always remembered people saying that BG2 didn't look that great, but I thought the graphics looked fine.
I guess the industry has decided to try to make games more atmospheric by displaying the world through 'the eye of the protagonist' but that only really works for shooters IMHO, Role-play and other games (such as tomb raider) benefit from showing the world around the player, especially when you are controlling five people at once (BG2). The other benefit of FPP to the industry is that you dont have to build a game engine you just buy it from someone who has and thus save on development costs.

But just out of interest, do driving games cause you the same problems?

Re:Give me something that doesn't make me ill.

[guidryp]

Tomb raider is if anything, even worse. KOTOR is also unplayable for me. Racing games are a bit of an issues, but I haven't played any for a while.

NWN represents a more modern game engine (still uses a 3d engine) than BG/BG2 that causes me zero problems. So they can still use a 3d engine and not make me sick. The difference is putting control of the camera in my hands instead of tracking every move of the onscreen characters. Overhead views are good. FPP or Third Person Perspective behind the character kill me.

I like Adventure/RPG/RTS. RTS are still OK, but I dont' get into that many of them. TA and SC will be it in years. Adventure games seem dead, but heck I couldn't play Myst 3, because it went to a live FPP engine. RPGs are mainly FPP now. Oblivion, I would have bought, but unplayable, Dragon Age I really wanted to get, but it will be FPP/TPP like KOTOR.

But there is less creativity combined with motion sickness inducing engines. I think the industry needs a good downturn to have a wakeup call.

Everybody loves the wii...

[RickBauls]

Chuck Norris doesn't love the Wii, nor does he love Raymond.

Re:If gameplay is your thing..

[kyashan]

Well if you are only running at a resolution comparable to 480p or even 720p the answer would be - most of the time on a decent computer.

Lowering resolution can only help you so much. There is more than fill-rate both one the GPU and the CPU side. PC games are designed to have the nicest graphics and good framerate on top systems. Any lower than that, you have to mess around with settings.
As an ex PC game developer I learned at my expenses that it's better to put pressure on the user to buy new hardware, than to try to favor framerate and end up with reviews with screenshots that don't look so nice.

I was running Doom 3 running at 1024x768 on the day it was released and getting framerates over 90FPS on a Nvidia 6800GT. 1280x1024 was still over 60 FPS most of the time.

First of all, we have to see what settings you were using and how steady was your framerate. Secondly, yeah, well the 6800GT was the hottest card one could buy at the time... I doubt most people can shell $400-500 every 6 months to keep their framerate.

And speaking of bad framerates, I believe it is the Xbox 360 version of Quake 4 that suffers from stuttering and slowdown versus a decent PC card which runs it silky smooth.

Quake 4 would be PC game. There is a fundamental difference between a game written for a specific system and a port. In this case one has to consider the OpenGL to Direct3D transition among other things.

Wee? Wii?

[popeye44]

Every single time I see an article about the Wii all I can think of is this..

http://www.funnyjunk.com/pages/squirrel.htm/

My son needs something with more Kid games.. it's sad but there's SO few nowadays.. Not that I mind of course.. but for me at 38 and him at 5 yrs. there's quite a bit of difference in the skill level... I'm far worse than him :-]

Re:If gameplay is your thing..

[snuf23]

"Lowering resolution can only help you so much. There is more than fill-rate both one the GPU and the CPU side. PC games are designed to have the nicest graphics and good framerate on top systems. Any lower than that, you have to mess around with settings."

What I mean is that it's kind of unfair to compare a console game framerate at 480p or 720p to PC games which people frequently are running at 1280x1024 or higher (especially now as that is standard resolution on 17"-19" LCDs).
Sure lowering res only goes so far, but by lowering the res and selecting lowered detail settings games like Doom 3 were playable at high frame rates on lower end cards.

"First of all, we have to see what settings you were using and how steady was your framerate. Secondly, yeah, well the 6800GT was the hottest card one could buy at the time... I doubt most people can shell $400-500 every 6 months to keep their framerate."

4x antialiasing 8x aniso at 1024x768 was steady always 60, peaking in the mid 90s. 2x antialiasing 4x aniso at 1280x1024 was how I ended up playing the game and frame rates were consistently in the 40-65 range. The card could run the game at 1600x1200 quite acceptably as well.
The 6800GT was the second hottest card at the time, the 6800 Ultra was another 15-20% faster I believe.
Cost wasn't mentioned in the initial post but really it's more like $400 every couple years. I'm still running the 6800GT and with the exception of a couple of games (i.e. Obliviion with HDR on for example) it still does great. I am considering upgrading but honestly I could go another year without it significantly impacting most of my gaming.
Personally I like the fact that I can customize my hardware to improve performance in a game or alternately adjust video settings to make it run smoother. If a game you like has frame rate issues on a console, too bad - there isn't anything you can do about it. And some games DO have issues.
It's also hard to go from playing games at higher resolutions down to 480p. They just look chunky. 720p is better but even if you avoid the expensive HDTV cost and plug it into a monitor you are dealing with less resolution than modern PC games. In the case of simulations (as the original poster mentioned), I think the higher res is important.

"Quake 4 would be PC game. There is a fundamental difference between a game written for a specific system and a port. In this case one has to consider the OpenGL to Direct3D transition among other things."

Fair enough, although I would say it's probably more of an issue of a rushed port to an unfamiliar platform. Doom 3 was suprisingly decent on the old Xbox.

Ubisoft? EA? Wheeee

[KlausBreuer]

Ah, Ubisoft: the people using the StarForce copyprotection system? No, thanks. I'm not touching any of your games.
Electronic Arts? The company buying good gaming companies, bringing out a trashy Version 2 of their game, and then letting them die? No, thanks.

What particularly poor companies to show as examples eager to do something.

Re:Ubisoft? EA? Wheeee

[hkmwbz]

Uh, you seem to be a bit confused.

1. Ubisoft stopped using StarForce.

2. How on earth is StarForce relevant on a gaming console?

Re:Ubisoft? EA? Wheeee

[KlausBreuer]

Nope, they did not - latest game (FlatOut 2) showed up here in Europe with the latest version of StarForce.

Beyond Good and Evil 2... please!

[sherriw]

PLEASE Ubisoft- give us a sequel to Beyond Good and Evil. And for the love of god- no more Prince of Persia(cringe)!

5 Stages of Wii Acceptance.

[Spokehedz]

• Denial: "There is no way I'm buying something called Wii!"
  
  
• Anger: "What in the hell were they thinking? The marketing for the Revolution was already in place!"
  
  
• Bargaining: "Just let me have Super Smash Bros. Eleventy-billion, OK? Or maybe just a good Mario Kart?"
  
  
• Depression: "Why did they let the marketing department come up with the name... Oh [deity] I can't let my friends know I'm buying one... They will make fun of me forever!"
  
  
• Acceptance: "Fine... Whatever. Just so long as the games are fun I don't care what it's called."
  

Poor sod.

[jotaeleemeese]

If you think the state of your computer matters to a prospective girlfriend I reckon you are not getting out much....

Re:Poor sod.

[xtracto]

If you think the state of your computer matters to a prospective girlfriend I reckon you are not getting out much....

AAhhh but you will certainly impress that girlfriend that owns the iPod with your new MacBook and you will be able to talk about the wonders of music downloaded from iTunes and the cool iMovie effects.

So yep, there is a difference

Re:Poor sod.

[Jeppe Salvesen]

lemme see - if you bring home a prospective girlfriend, and you show off a ugly computer with a stack of pizza boxes next to it - do you think that's a turnon?

i'm not arguing that girls like macs - they just think they're less ugly than the average Dell.

Re:Feedback Loop

[shadwstalkr]

I totally agree with you. The NES graphics sucked, but I'm still nostalgic for games like Zelda, Contra, and Double Dragon, not because they looked great, but because they were so much damn fun to play. My Genesis looked pretty crappy compared to my friends' Super Nintendos, but I've never spent more time on a game than on Phantasy Star 3, because after I beat it I just had to go through it again and see the other endings.

Hopefully someday game developers will realize that they don't need a Hollywood production team. Those 8-bit sidescrolling platformers were a hell of a lot more fun than just about any HD, million polygon, celebrity voice acted crapfest they've released in the last five years.

Re:It's the Mac effect.

[hkmwbz]

Inferior hardware in a cute package with a gimmicky interface outsells something twice as powerful.

So basically, it's DS vs. PSP? And DS outsells PSP between five and ten to one. Sounds like a good deal to me! The DS might be gimimcky, but it sure kicks PSP's ass!

Re:If gameplay is your thing..

[hkmwbz]

You forgot to check the "Post Anonymously" box...

Re:If gameplay is your thing..

[kyashan]

Opss.. I accidentally started a PC vs Console thread. I didn't mean to do that. You have some valid points, but ultimately I think that it's the point of view what really makes a difference. Too many variables in play, too complex, that's why I prefer consoles as platforms to program games and to play (arcade games) as well.

maooooooo

Re:If gameplay is your thing..

[kyashan]

You forgot to check the "Post Anonymously" box...

Not really, I'm doing that intentionally.
Thank you anyway 8)