Slashdot Mirror
Closer to Deducing the Origin of the Moon
eldavojohn writes "A giant explosion on the sun in January of 2005 allowed SMART-1 (a European spacecraft orbiting the moon) to detect what elements the moon is made up of based on the X-rays from the sun's explosion. This allows scientists to speculate on the moon's origins while seeing data from all over the moon as opposed to the core samples we have collected and returned in the past. From the article: 'Scientists responsible for the D-CIXS instrument on SMART-1 are also announcing that they have detected aluminium, magnesium and silicon. "We have good maps of iron across the lunar surface. Now we can look forward to making maps of the other elements." said SMART-1's Principal Investigator.'"
Oh man, you can bet that looking into the moon or bits of it will have you coined as a loony, figuring out its "source" is just plain cheesy, and given its size is anyway having to force a choice between the light and dark side.
Have you read my journal today?
Don't believe me? Go to google moon and zoom all the way in.
Technoli
What are the odds that the moon turns out to be composed partly of gold, or platinum or palladium? Would moon mining be profitable?
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
I thought God made it. Oh well, learn something every day.
Funnypics
Al Gore created the Moon?
"Reality continues to ruin my life" - Calvin and Hobbes
What's now posing as the Moon is really the Fourth Imperium Utu-class planetoid Dahak, hull number 177291 -- the original was destroyed 51,000 years ago.
13And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
/me reaches for odgens nut gone flake to check.
Forget the origins of the moon. The moon's here. What I find interesting is that they're mapping the elements on the moon, and where they are. This gives us a map of where to go mine. They already said they found iron; eventually, someone will find a way to make moon mining more monetarily motivational.
I used to carry a bottle of whiskey for snake bite. And two snakes. -Nefarious Wheel
vomit after an all night drinking binge to me.
That's no moon...
There is no mod option "-1: Disagree" for a reason. "Overrated" is not an acceptable substitute. Post something instead.
13And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Only heretics and witchs believe the moon is made of anything but cheeze. A big FLAT piece of cheese.
That's no moon!
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
There is no moon.
If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
What? No cheese? I thought it was made of cheese. I was lied to!
Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
You'd have to read Empire from the Ashes (or one of the component books, this is a trilogy-in-one) by David Weber.
Where are the vast deposits of cheese Grommit, the Cheeeeeeese!
what on earth could it add to this discussion?
Nothing. This is a discussion about the moon. Hence you added nothing to the discussion. The original poster gave a hypothesis as to the origin of the moon.
Here's a few more details about this Impact Theory:
s tions/question38.html
"The basic idea is this: about 4.45 billion years ago, a young planet Earth -- a mere 50 million years old at the time and not the solid object we know today-- experienced the largest impact event of its history. Another planetary body with roughly the mass of Mars had formed nearby with an orbit that placed it on a collision course with Earth. When young Earth and this rogue body collided, the energy involved was 100 million times larger than the much later event believed to have wiped out the dinosaurs. The early giant collision destroyed the rogue body, likely vaporized the upper layers of Earth's mantle, and ejected large amounts of debris into Earth orbit. Our Moon formed from this debris."
Plus, this page has a really cool rendering of the Impact:
http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/que
Health Insurance Quotes
There was a huge explosion on the Sun in January 2005? This may be a dumb question, but does that have anything to do with 2005 being the warmest year on record? I know that some scientists think that some of the recent warming trend has to do with increased sunspot activity. Is this something similar?
Thanks,
tim
"They already said they found iron; eventually, someone will find a way to make moon mining more monetarily motivational."
Ladies and gentlemen. Judge advocate for the exporting of capitalism. And on slashdot no less. You're a braver person than I.
With better understanding of Moon's compsition, it might just help to eventually have a Lunar Station. If favourable metals/minerals are found, list of Raw materials needed to be hauled to moon might get shorter. With India, China, Russia, ESA, NASA all collaborating with each other, Lunar station might all of a sudden make more sense than International Space Station. Apart from the costlier trip, to me everything else make more economic sense. Who knows, maybe the new *NASA SHUTTLE* maybe capable of landing and taking off the moon. I just all hope all this happens in my lifetime, because to me a permanent presence in lunar station would really be the first time Mankind has really ventured into Space. Moreover, trip to Mars etc. will become easier too, with prehaps Spaceship for Mars being Assembled on moon. My question is How hard would it be to tractor all those empty full tanks onto Moon by an autonomous system?
I am at loss with words...
Sounds to me that they're closer to defining the overall composition of the moon, but not necessarily the origins. If it's composed of 99% substances from a particular area of earth or other planet, perhaps it could be found that it's a seperated chunk. Alternately, it could just be made of the same materials as several planets in the solar system.
Composition might do well to helping them deduce where the moon isn't from, but I can't really see it definatively stating the overall original of the satellite. Heck, even earth may have come as an offshoot of a larger object at some point in time.
Bah, and posting AC since I moderated in this topic already
all of the "It's made of cheese posts." were mod'ed "Redundant" and yet the parent was mod'ed "Funny"? I've seen this post ("That's no moon...") a zillion times!
On the moon, the weekend has advanced beyond your wildest dreams. Weekends now take up the entire week, and jobs have been phased out accordingly.
These scients know that you need to understand the origin of the moon, in order to destroy it.
The Luna is full of holes, so I always assumed she was a Swiss, but imagine what kinds of wars will start if they actually find out that she really is a Cheddar or a Reggianito or Brin or worse yet Fetta or Cottage.
This war will be the mother of all wars, and it will smell funny.
You can't handle the truth.
The original poster gave a hypothesis as to the origin of the moon.
I thought one of the conditions for something to be considered a "hypothesis" was that it can, in some way, be tested. This would be what separates it from a "guess." Though, to be fair, I don't think what the poster quoted was either. I'd more accurately classify it as an "allegory."
http://publicvoidlife.blogspot.com
Your point doesn't stand - the moon mineral composition is fundamentally different from Earth's for the straight forward reason that it was made up of materials from Earth's outer layers - it lacks the heavy elements that concentrate in the Earth's core.
Clear, Dark Skies
On the moon, nerds get their pants pulled down and they are spanked with moonrocks.
Well of course the "lunar landing" rocks were similar to Earth's, they were from Earth. It is accepted fact that we never went to the moon. The present analyses simply add more support to this fact. Oh, and if you want to know my credentials, as IANAA (the last part can be astronomer or astronaut- take your pick) I watch Fox, and that is where I get all my current information, everything else is in my Bible. You can't imagine how much I have saved on bookcases and moving expenses over the years by only reading and owning one book.
Well, as far as Sig's go, Freud was a doozy.
You are aboslutly correct, and it seems that you would have the added benefit of being the most secure storage site on the plan... eh... in the solar system.
Look at a pangea layout and look at the "rabbit in the moon" . They're mirror images of each other.
Genesis 1:16
For God made two great lights, the sun and the moon, to shine down upon the earth. The greater one, the sun, presides during the day; the lesser one, the moon, presides through the night. He also made the stars.
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
Whatever happened the TONS of moon dust that the USA supposedly has in storage somewhere? Doesn't that tell us what the Moon is made of? And... if we can bring back TONS of Moon dust then we could certainly bring back TONS of Gold! --Matthew Wong http://www.themindofmatthew.com
I may be way off base here, but did the Lunar landings not take soil samples? (for want of a better word) Even with the relatively limited technology we had back then, i'd have thought it would be easier to tell what it was made of from actually being on it. n.b: this is all contingent on the belief that the Lunar landings weren't a conspiracy.
"No, no, no, don't tug on that! You never know what it might be attached to."
So, if the moon falls off a table, does it land on its light or dark side?
If you've seen the widescreen version of The Fifth Element, you see that the moon is a dead sphere of "pure evil". In the 4:3 version, you don't see the first moon and hence can't really make the connection... (cropped content SUCKS).
For more details
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
'Origins' aside, it's mining companies (and venture capitalists with an eye for off-world enterprises) that will be most interested in these findings, lending the idea that they are likely funding some of this research.
While this may sound absurd, it's perhaps worth asking: How much rock do you have to move off the Moon before the Earth starts seeing climatic changes as a result? Any one know of research into this area? Given the blatant denial certain first word countries have evidence in the face of an eroding Ozone layer, let's hope the moon isn't laden with valuable metals, ores and other resources..
Everyone knows that the moon is made of cheese. And if you don't believe my word just ask Google for this. Simply zoom in all the way and the truth will be revealed.
"I believe that the real "treasure" on the moon is helium-3 isotope. Just isn't present in sufficient quantities on Earth, and it could be the next big power source."
You hear this sort of talk a lot among space enthusiasts, but unfortunately it is very unlikely that anyone will ever want to build a reactor that runs off of helium-3. Yes, you can make a reactor that burns helium-3, but it is much less technically challenging to build a reactor that runs off hydrogen and deuterium. Since there is an essentially unlimited supply of deuterium in the earth's oceans, it seems unlikely that anyone would want to build a reactor that's both more difficult to construct and requires fuel from the moon.
It should also be pointed out that you can make helium-3 in a conventional fusion reactor. Since building a helium-3 reactor is far more difficult than a deuterium or tritium fueled reactor, by the time you actually need helium-3 you will by necessity already have the technology to make it yourself.
Its an accepted theory that the Moon originated from the Earth.
Sometime in Earth's early history, before the formation of life, a large Mars-sized object probably collided with the Earth throwing off a massive amount of material.
For a time its believed the Earth might have had a Saturn-like ring system until tidal/gravitational forces caused the material to begin clumping together into what would one day be the moon. Its also likely that some material rained back down on the Earth. Supporting this theory is the well known fact the Earth has a very faint, barely detectable, ring.
Michael "TheZorch" Haney
thezorch@gmail.com
http://thezorch.googlepages.com/home
..i just want to know who the bastard is that carved "CHA" into it!
Slashdot Burying Stories About Slashdot Media Owned
Given the location, and elements or molecular content of an area(s) of the moon, what would it take to "Harvest" the moon? An assumption is that the products would be used on the moon, or for space stations. Possibly the use of "Nano-bots"?
I'll let you store your gold on the land that I recently purchased (http://LunarRegistry.com). For a small fee of course.
Just getting a couple people on the surface to walk around a bit is massively expensive... forget about a sustained effort with mining equipment, life support and everything else you'd need.
Just use robots, remote controlled where neccessary. We can already build machines that can traverse the moon, we can build machines that can mine and extract ore with little human intervention, automated refineries are easy, and power the whole thing with lovely naked solar radiation! The first thing they build are ten more plants!
What he can't kill, he has sex on. Trent.
With the moon, why not build a space elevator? It would have to be much, much cheaper and easier than doing so on Earth. We probably have the tech to do it right now. Given that it would be useful for things like exploration and research as well, the cost of building such a space elevator could be written-off as far as a mining project goes.
Three words for you man: Lunar Space Elevator. All you would need then is an economical way to do the mining -- keeping in mind that solar power works like a hot damn on the moon thanks to its thin atmosphere and lack of climate. You could probably only run the site during the times when the moon faced towards the sun (it would presumably be solar-powered), but that still provides you with a lot of mining time.
A bunch of rocks and matter floating around formed together in one massive heap of flaming molten rock until it cooled to form the moon.
Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
As Wallace and Grommet found in "A fine day out", it's very simmilar to wenslydale cheese.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
--DCCIII a.k.a enqwar
Genesis is myth. Most of what is in Genesis can be traced to other myths of earlier civilizations. For intelligent modern people to confuse a myth with reality is sad. Do your homework - for as Proverbs says "A simple man believes anything, but a prudent man gives thought to his steps"
But I thought the origin of the moon was (0,0,0)....
There is a normal, 17 year sunspot cycle. It has been peaking lately. And this does have a small effect on global temperature. What it does not have, however, is a consistent, thirty-year long effect on temperature, nor does it have a strong enough effect to cause an entire degree of mean global temperature increase. Thanks for the FUD though, it was very subtely presented. The self-deprecating tone made it seem almost genuine.
No one knows where the moon's from. H2G2 (The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy) says where the Earth came from, but I don't recall any info about the moon.
The findings make sense for the theory which states that an off-center impact of a largish planetesimal merged with the nascent earth 'momentarily', then threw off a globule roughly the same size as that planetesimal. It makes sense if you consider that the earth's mantle is made primarily of molten silicate rock and light metals, so an impact which 'punctured' the earth and 'kept on going' would have passed through the mantle and taken the mantle rock with it. The moon, if the samples brought back are any indicator, is more than likely nothing more than a solidified blob of ejected mantle collapsed to a sphere due to its mass. Of course, the fact that the moon is slowly moving away is another good indication of a birthing impact as it seems to suggest a point of origin. The earth is probably too small to have captured a body the size of the moon anyway. Another good piece of evidence is the fact that the moon always faces the earth on the same side, a coincidence of angular momentum that suggests that the moon was once a part of earth.
will we go to war against the green cheese eating moon aliens?
Now I hope and pray that I will But today I am still, just a bill
That's a good point; there could be a lot of nickel & iron there, in relatively pure form and, I suppose, such meteors could have non-trivial amounts of other metals - but not enough to make it worth hauling it back to earth.
Consider an incredibly expensive metal. Titanium, for example. Someone discovers a huge amount of titanium on the moon and spends billions to go and get it. What happens to the price of titanium when they begin selling it on Earth?
We would have to find some way to make space travel as cheap as today's cargo ships to make it worthwhile to haul raw materials back to Earth.
Clear, Dark Skies
Well, the forensicists wanted to explain how the moon was formed, so I thought it would be a good idea to provide the Christian explanation of that phenomenon, so that it could be seen alongside the secular explanation.
a pter=1&version=9
What I hoped to accomplish was to inform those people who might never have heard the Christian view, and yet wanted or needed to hear it, for whatever reason might be.
The time and place seemed particularly relevant, given that the forensic explanation was not very likely to mention the LORD, who, I believe, deserves full credit for creating the Earth's moon.
What's more, even for those who insist on naysaying, or crying "myth" in a crowded church, the verse, itself, is an interesting and fun read.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&ch
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
Antifaith is still faith, and its underpinnings are just as "shakey" as those of faith.
In good faith, there is no antifaith.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
"...they have detected aluminium, magnesium and silicon."
I.e., silicates, otherwise known as... dirt.
We needed millions of dollars of satellite technology to tell us this?
Ahhh, yes, but what kind of dirt...
Gold is intrinsically valuable. People (especially women) are genetically predisposed to like shiny things. Also gold is (as far as I know) the best room-temperature conductor that we have today. Thus there will always be a demand for gold for use in jewelry and electronics.
Companies still have gold-mining operations today. They may rely on various chemical pools to get relatively small amounts of gold out, but it's still adding some to the supply, and people are still buying jewelry and electronics which takes away from the supply. Now, I don't really understand how world gold markets work, but I bet you that if the price of gold got high enough some of the gold being traded on paper would get sold off in reality also.
Anyway, as a species it's really in our best interest to have difficult to access but valuable supplies gathered together (in a readily usable form) instead of dispersed, just in case we need it for something important - such as a giant super computer to calculate the answer to life, the universe, and everything, or we might have to bribe some alien race with a giant, golden statue of female squiddy, crowned and bearing a torch and a book, to prevent them from invading us. Think about it.
Faith that obvious myths are real, is irrational and delusion at best.
If you are saying that a faith in Genesis as a factual literal scientific account of the creation of the universe is equivalent to what science is revealing about the universe than you are certainly wrong.
However, you are just as wrong as the Babylonian, Summarian, Assyrian, Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Norse, Indian, Navaho, Zulu, Hawaiian cultural creation myths. They are all early attempts at explaining existence and are equally wrong.
If you spend any time research the source of some the ideaology and symbols in Genesis you will find that they are borrowed and modified from earlier cultures - just like any good meme.
Science, while at times wrong or incomplete, has this wonderful self-correction mechanism that roots out error by allowing for disagreement and debate - evidence is king. You put your "faith" in science every time you partake in modern medical care, fly in a airplane, drive in your car, or turn on your computer etc.
Religion on the hand other firewalls any disagreement and labels any questioning or doubt as "lacking of faith". Religion often speaks of faith in the unseen as a positive quality. Faith is just superstition all dressed up.
If I was a Mayan fundamentalist and I told you we need to sacrifice a virgin in order to bring rain for good crop production and you told me there is no coorelation between sacrificing virgins and percipitation. By your account I would be justified to say that I have faith in my beliefs and you just have antifaith and the underpinnings of antifaith are just as "shakey" as those of faith so all is equal.
Now if say you have "faith" in Genesis because of some outstanding scientific revelations, that would be rational. If that is the case then bring em on tell me why you have faith in Genesis.
First google result.
Second google result.
Third google result, including a diagram.
In 10 seconds with google, all this knowledge could have been yours. But that's okay -- I'm sure ignorance is a good choice too. You're American, huh?
Here, this was put on craigs just so you could see the badge in the sky:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/rnr/197236852.htm
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
1.) and how exactly did he/she/it create the moon?
2.) given that free will exists, to prove that god made the moon would then prove the existence of god which would render that free will redundant. Therefore when god created the moon (if god created the moon) he/she/it had to make it look as though it was formed through natural processes. Surely the studying of these natural processes allows us to appreciate even better the nature of the place where we live and the processes which occur and, if you're that way inclined, the wonder of god's creation.
To simply sit there and say "god created the moon, we don't need to study it" is to deny the very beauty and elegance of gods creation (if you believe in that).
Finally, I see you quote Genesis and I note that the story of the creation in Genesis is not too dissimilar to many earlier creation stories told in earlier, pre-Judaic cultures / religions. The story of creation as told in Genesis is, approximately, in the same chronological order as observed scientifically which is remarkable. What would have been more remarkable is if god had turned to the children of Israel 3000 years at Mount Sinai and said "well I created the universe 13 billion years ago, there were some bigger stars, they exploded and reformed to make newer stars until about 4.5 billion years ago there was just the right mix of heavier and lighter elements to create a solar system that would support life. I made sure there was a heavy gas giant quite a long way out to mop up most of the asteroids that could damage life as it formed, I caused a collision quite earlier on to create the moon which would create the tidal effects that would encourage water to be trapped on the planet and enable it to move around enough to cause sufficient denudation to allow some form of heat transference from the core via tectonics. Making sure that there was a strong electro-magnetic field that protected the earth from the sun's harmful rays, while having it swap once every half million years to allow just enough quick mutation to allow some sort of plausible evolution, I allowed stuff to evolve pretty much for 4 billion years safe in the knowledge that at some point, something would evolve that could look around and say "hey, who made us then?" and I'd be able to pop down, say hello and give you some laws".
It's not even intelligent design. It's just a bunch of circumstances that couldn't have ended any other way BUT to give life, whether you believe god put them there or that in a universe of 500 billion stars there's going to be at least one system that evolves life, or whether that is in fact the same thing. What is for sure is that had god come out with all that 3000 years ago they wouldn't have believed him/her/it - in fact there's plenty people around today who don't believe it and that's ok too. But back then, they already had a creation story, so he just took the one they had, changed it a bit and gave it back to them. Better something they could believe than the truth - that the universe is so big that something like the earth would have happened anyway and actually the miracle of the creation was something completely different if you choose to believe in it anyway.
Turn down your moderation levels - I wasn't replying to you at all, I was replying to the guy who was calling you names.
In other words, don't yell at me for defending you!
Clear, Dark Skies
But you really didn't give the whole Christian explanation so I would say what you posted was misleading. What about the 'other' creation story from 2:4b to 2:25? I'm not familiar with Genesis' origins but I do know the version you omitted is centuries older than what you quoted... (if that really means anything; it's all bullshit; I mean, really, most Christians don't believe Genesis (or the OT) is factual anyway).
You are delusional.
Antifaith, which itself is an awful word as most atheists aren't against faith but simply lack faith -BIG difference-, is not faith. You will NEVER win an agrument against such people if you can't understand where they are coming from. I can't stress this enough. Like you already have done, you will make assumption after assumption that simply aren't true which only discredits you.
BTW, if "antifaith is faith" and "Jesus said that faith can move mountains" (15951725) then antifaith is as powerful (for lack of a better word) as faith according to transitive logic.
Ad homein argument.. I guess I could ask if that's your best foot forward.
"Atheist" is a negative faith. To be even more clear than I already was: Atheism is a faith which stipulates that there is no God. It takes as much faith to willfully disbelieve God's existence as it does to BELIVE His existence.
Most atheists probably come from the process of looking for "proof" of God's existance. Then, when they don't find solid proof, they say "God doesn't exist. I know that for fact." Perhaps not all cases are like that, but that's how it all started with me, back when I was a junior atheist.
However, if an atheist is intellectually honest, then they must also look for proof that God does NOT exist. Failing to find that, they become a agnostics. People who say "maybe God exists, and maybe he doesn't, and if he does, I certainly don't know anything about Him."
Hence the claim "Atheism is a negative faith," or an antifaith. It is a brand of faith which states that God does not exist.
Then you proceed to claim that the Atheist's negative faith will move mountains? Perhaps it would, but they don't have any faith in that, and, once they saw that faith DOES move mountains, they'd stop being atheists.
One thing you failed to consider is the possibility that your own negative faith HAS been moving mountains (in a "wrong" direction) all this time.
And that, good friend, is one of the reasons that I always advocate optimism.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
Are you that guy from my axiomatic logic class who harangued the class about how the transatlantic cable couldn't possibly be real? Seriously, the world is going to be much better off when the people who think on a pathologically small-scale are finally gone.
Optimism in general is good, yes. Optimism in false teachings typical leads one astray. I can be optimistic that slaying a virgin will improve the chances of rain but that optimism is misplaced and wrong.
faith DOES move mountains
Back to the question - What mountain has ever been moved by faith? What bodily limb has ever been restored? What conjoined twin has ever been separated by faith. Things that are observable and verifiable seem to be resistant to changes by faith and prayer for some reason.
While atheism may indeed be an illogical belief system it is better than a stringent literalist belief in a religious system that is demonstratively false. It is better not to believe in god at all, than to believe in a false vision of god that requires, for instance, blood sacrifices, killing of infidels or even egocentric beliefs that god is watching out for you personally.
Agnosticism is really the logical position. The infinitely superior spirit or intellect that created the universe may be unknownable by the puny human mind. One thing I can tell you is that the collection of ancient books that you call the Bible is not a description of the God that created the universe.
Well, you've contradicted your own argument just now. On the one hand you claim that Agnosticism is the logical position. On the other hand you persist in gainsaying the contents of the Bible, God's own nature, the likelihood of miracles, the fact that God DOES look out for us (and I'm telling you, he DOES).
l
/., the atheist's conventions and mensa combined. When I PRAY, my PRAYER is ANSWERED. I know and trust the LORD.
What have I seen with my own two eyes? Experienced? There was a light in my heart for 3 days, and ALL that I could feel towards anyone was boundless love. Love so strong that it was a physical sensation. I saw the sun at high noon in the sky on a clear blue day and it was double-encircled by two concentric 360 degree rainbows.
I've seen the sun as a star of david over death valley. Here's a photo of the very same:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/rnr/197236852.htm
I've called a coin toss 16 times in a row, and I KNEW that it would be right, each time. Bust out your calculator. ( 1 / (2^16) ) = x
I've performed surgery on myself, and succeeded!
I've prayed and asked for help to get my motorcycle out from being hopelessly lost in backwoods, and my VISION was modified to show me the right way until I was back on the state highway.
I've contended with more demons than you could even guess. Those demons were the fallout of my agnostic years. Re-Read that, and don't say I didn't warn you. If you wait too long and the day comes it's going to be hell to pay. I've been there and I know.
My FAITH is STRONG. In fact, it is stronger than all the antifaith on
LIFE is FILLED with amazing events. They happen on a regular basis. One day you'll know for sure that God exists. How you've been living up till then depends on what you believe now.
It is impish to conflate virgin sacrifice and demonic practices as if they were on par with Christ's teachings. The old testament forbids human sacrifice. It also forbids killing. The new testament stipulates that we should love our neighbors as ourselves. Flawed or not, the Bible provides you with no contradiction on that point.
Conflating ALL religions as if they were ancient Aztec heart-cutting blood sacrifice is a deliberate attempt at conversational derailment. But if you must know, there ARE demons in the world, and it is best to avoid them, if for no other reason than to keep the first commandment.
Yes, you're right that there are some odd contradictions in the Bible, I've seen them myself, and I'm not blind to them. I can't explain them all, but I've made a genuine effort to mitigate the contradictions or resolve them so that they make sense, and CAN be followed.
What's much MORE important than scripture and verse is the fact that I KNOW AND LOVE THE LORD, AND THE LORD ANSWERS MY PRAYERS.
I make the effort to keep good faith with God, to keep the 10 Commandments, to keep Jesus' teachings, and that effort is rewarding and fulfilling.
IF you really claim to be an agnostic then you cannot honestly claim that prayer goes unheard. Consider that. A single prayer could make a world of difference for you. Having the LORD in your life is unsurpassed, in terms of the order of importance of things.
I will tell you this, in case you decide to ask the LORD into your life, that it is important not to assume that you KNOW how things are going to happen. The LORD is in charge, and the power of faith doesn't mean you're suddenly Merlin. It means that you recognize the LORD will meet your needs in a way that HE chooses.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
First off, you're talking about the LORD. Just stop for a moment and consider how stupid it is to insult GOD ALMIGHTY, be that in public OR in private. He deserves your love, your fear and your respect.
Now. (Genesis 1:27) "So God created man in HIS own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." The LORD created your species in HIS own image.
Before you persist in disputing that, make sure your genitals are in place, and consider whether you LIKE having them in place.
Now, as to how the LORD did what he did in terms of creation... Well I honestly don't know HOW the LORD did what he did. I agree with you that studying the LORD's creation is a goodly and acceptable thing, especially if it is done with a deep and genuine appreciation for the LORD's BOUNDLESS GOODNESS, for his STAGGARING GENIOUS, for his INFINITE MAGNIFICENCE, and for his LIMITLESS POWER in all things. What's even more amazing is the fact that I, his own creation, CAN STAND THERE AND APPRECIATE HIS WORK.
The LORD's power really is infinite, and creation of Genesis REALLY COULD have all been compressed into 6 days and one single day of rest. The LORD really could have done it all in that amount of time. He could have compressed geological and astrological time just to make sure that it all happened in 6 days. Or he could have just snapped and brought them into existance, carbon-14 and all. You call me closed minded for insisting on THAT ? I call it closed minded to insist that the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, who created the universe and everything you and I have ever known, is NOT strong enough to have done all creation in 1 minute. He probably just took His time since making the world was probably really fun.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
first off I didn't insult god and nor did I intend to. However if I, an infinitessimally small speck on an infinitessimally small planet, in an insignificant galaxy in the unbelievable vastness of the universe DID insult him... well I think he has bigger fish to fry than me. This geo-centric view - that the world is God's big creation - THAT insults god because the whole point of what I was saying was that the universe and the elegance of the rules that run it are, for me, the miracle of creation (again if you do the whole god thing and the whole creation thing).
Secondly, please quote me. When you write, in a public forum, and accuse me of calling you small minded or closed minded at least have the courtesy to quote. Please. It shows a certain level of humility both towards him upstairs and towards others if you at least do this. Go back, read what I wrote, find the bit where I said you were closed mind, IT ISN'T THERE BECAUSE I DIDN'T SAY IT. Question - do you use the same level of accuracy when you quote god? Remember - I am made in his image...
You say the universe was created in six days. Six days from where? If you are at the centre of something as infinitely massive as the universe, at the point of the big bang then in fact the universe has just been created, just now. If you are one of the first bits of stuff ejected from the big bang you've been flying away from the big bang for the last 13 billion years. Welcome to relativity.
Finally, we were created in god's image, right? Ok so if I'm in god's image I have the right, even the duty, to question and learn and understand the HOW. A sheep can stand in the field and look at the world and appreciate it. I am a human, I have to go out there and understand HOW not just sit here saying "god is great, that's all there is to it".
YOU SAID:
1.) and how exactly did he/she/it create the moon?
AND THEN YOU SAID:
"first off I didn't insult god and nor did I intend to."
SO NOW I SAY:
I strongly recommend shedding the he/she/it "cuteness". Because it's not cute, and it's not smart; it IS flatly, impishly and unmistakenly insulting to the LORD.
and:
This is MY quote: "You call me closed minded for insisting on THAT?"
It is a question, not an accusation. Poorly chosen words; I was pressed for time. I apologize if you detected a note of "are you still beating your wife?" in the question, but the initial post attracted alot of attention, and took more time than I wanted to give. (Odd, considering it was downmodded to 1 due to it being a Christian post.)
Perhaps you are unaware of the convention, but when we write the word GOD it is capitalized like so: "God", unless we are discussing false/ mythical/ polytheistic/ wannabe gods, the worship of which is designated as "sin", due to the first of the 10 Commandments.
"Question - do you use the same level of accuracy when you quote god[sic]?"
It's 3 am. If that's all you'd written in this post, I would not even have replied to you.
I think you should take off your angry-hat and re-read my post. You raised objections to things that I didn't even say. Genesis has some of your answers, and I wrote good responses to some of your other ones.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
You capitalize God. :)
In my religion I use G-d because it is forbidden to use the whole name of G-d as this is considered to be taking "his" name in vain. Even though that is not his name, we still use the hyphen out of respect. Tom-ey-to, tom-ah-to - let's call the whole thing off
Incidentally the use of "his" is also, in my opinion, misguided since G-d doesn't really have a gender, there was no gender-neutral article in ancient Hebrew / Aramaic / Greek.
When posting on slashdot I don't use he/she/it to be impish or insulting to THE LORD. I do it because the likelihood is that whoever reads what I write probably doesn't believe in G-d the same way I do and I have no wish to shove the nature and manner of my personal relationship with the universe's creator down anyone else's neck. I will probably be addressing some of the many people who don't believe in one god, or any god, and who, though they lead thoroughly morally upstanding lives, don't believe in G-d. They live on the same planet I do and deserve the same respect as anyone. And certainly when we are talking about explosions on the sun, using the technology we have to detect spectrographic signatures of the rocks on the moon, I suspect that my degree in Geology and interest in space science probably counts a lot more than my religion.
The discussion is about using a rather novel and interesting technique (which we have devised because we are capable of doing so because we've evolved that way or because we were created that way and made to look like we'd evolved that way it doesn't really matter, the end result is the same) to try to ascertain the origin of the moon / how G-d made the moon look as though it was made through some other process.
I am trying to be as inclusive as possible and am interested in understand the nature of what is out there. Why? Because it's interesting.
You seem to be interested in getting people to follow THE LORD - I imagine to save their souls. (the old "the only way to G-d is through me" thing, I imagine?) I'm picking up some sort of crusade on your part to save the unbelievers on slashdot. I'm sorry but my soul isn't up for saving right now and I don't know that any of the people reading your diatribe will be converted by how holy and fervent your faith is. "Don't do this, don't do that, this is insulting, that is disrespectful, this is how it happened even though the evidence is to the contrary" give it a break. Go back to being a human, to being humble. Go back to being a human - as made in G-d's image - let people be. Lead by dogma and dictat and people will try to wind you up just for a laugh. Lead by example and they'll follow you because they think you're really cool.
Your star shaped sun is only a sign of your egocentric religious view of creation and not a sign from god. People read all sorts of meaning into everyday events and interpret those sign as directed at them personally. Just like the medieval church had a difficult time believing that man/earth are not the center of creation so are you having a difficult time believing that you are not at the center of gods concern.
Remember the bible code a few years ago. Where some nut takes the spaces and punctuation out the biblical text and arranges the characters in a block and finds all sorts of wonderful meaning and descriptions in the ensuring crossword puzzle. Spooky eh? Err not really, a rational less egocentric mind would immediately think of statistics and probability of vowels and constants and word content and realize that you can do that with any text. In fact some did do that with Moby Dick! The author read in all sorts of was there was none.
Another example? Go to this page and scroll down to the bottom and you will find your star in a perfectly normal situation. It happens and it even has a science based explanation.
One the list of reasons I am not a believer in your religion is that the adherents are gullible, egocentric, deluded and practice deception, faulty logic and are eager to to lie for god.
You have mentioned that you have conducted surgery on yourself - successfully. Impressive! Do you believe that if you were a Thalidomide baby born without arms that you could faith or pray yourself some arms? That would take less energy than moving a mountain.
:)
/. who have used blashpemy. I hope you aren't going to "adapt" for them, as well. You have to draw your line somewhere, and it might as well be WITHIN the stronghold of your faith, rather than out there in the jungle. And it is a mistake to accomodate the "politically correct sensetivities" of somebody who doesn't even know the LORD.
Tom-ey-to, tom-ah-to, Basil.
I've met Krishnas that "owned" worshipping basil. They call it a god... Basil worship is against the first of the 10 Commandments. I told some of them as much, to help them follow Jesus' instruction, in particular since they CLAIM to FOLLOW Jesus' teachings, and worship GOD, alongside the rest of their pantheon, but they didn't seem to care that Jesus told his disciples to keep the 10 Commandments, and the LORD wrote the 10 Commandments into Stone.
No Gender-neutral article? Well then, what's this on the first page of the KJV Bible? "And God saw the light, that IT was good: and God divided the light from the darkness." Does that mean you're going to he-she-it LIGHT from now on, too?
Moving right along. 'A variety of people and beliefs.' There are people on
"deserve the same respect as anyone"
They deserve the same CORRECTIONS as anyone. If they choose to spit on the Commandments and Christ's teachings, that's up to them. But what they're not going to do is stand there cowering in sin, on judgement day, pointing fingers at ME for standing idle.
I guess I could ask what spectrographic and geological analysis have to do with faith. I posted the Genesis material b/c it is absolutely related to the topic, but not because I intended to "topple" or replace the entire field of geology with a few pages from Genesis.
As I said, the LORD could easily have compressed time to accomplish ALL THE CREATION of Genesis into 6 days, and THAT by purely "organic" "naturalistic" and "self-causing" means. That does not in any way contradict Geological analytical tools. He could have "slowed time down" again, for mantime.
-OR-
He could have just snapped his fingers and gotten the same result.
-OR-
He could have made the earth into a star treck - style holodeck. If your analytical tools tell you that the minerals were formed a billion years ago, according to scientifically-founded forensic methods, then that's just part of the holodeck.
When a geologist tells me that the earth is a billion years old, according to their analytical techniques, I take that to mean that a scientifically-founded forensic process has yielded that conclusion. It doesn't make their conclusion accurate. It's a "legitimate" conclusion, but that doesn't mean I believe it.
This conversation has dragged me all over the map to explain things to people, most of whom disregarded the truth, disrespected the LORD, disrespected Jesus, disrespected my faith... You doubt that? (uh oh, there I go AGAIN! a _question_!) The originial post was modded down to 1 just for QUOTING the Bible. If I'd quoted the greek creation myth and described the Titans or something, it would have been rated 5. k? Now THAT'S antichristian. From a group of people that CLAIMS to be open minded, THAT is closed minded.
Anyhow, I take no insult. I spent half my life doing the same impish things that I've seen over the last few days. I'm just putting the facts in there with the rest of the salad.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
Dropping the tether further out towards Earth is, from what I've read, precisely what people looking at the idea of a lunar space elevator are thinking of. It's not a big deal for the vehicles, because they don't actually have to meet up with the tether at the endpoint. A small landing station can be located at L1, and the larger counterweight further out. And a maintenance breakdown? Realistically speaking, we will probably lose the first few things we try to build on the moon anyway.
As for (1) -- it's ironic that you would mention the idea of using rails to launch cargo with ten words of the phrase "academic masturbation". I mean really, that's all ANY of this is. But that kind of rampant conjecturing is exactly how new ideas get hashed out. It's valuable in and of itself.
For (2), yes the forces are low. But the cost has to be absolutely miniscule. Rockets are expensive for every trip, whereas a space elevator could, designed appropriately, have only small maintenance costs and have its large initial building cost amortized out (although you should always peer skeptically at anyone who claims that some large cost will amortize out...).
"the adherents are gullible, egocentric, deluded and practice deception, faulty logic and are eager to to lie for god."
First off, it is a sin to bear false witniss. Learn the word "some" or "some of". Then you might get lucky and make a true statement, but, even then, you'd still be bearing false witniss, unless you specifically had seen what you are describing.
Second, I owe you thanks for earning me some blessings today: Matthew 5:11 "Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake."
Yes, in fact, I have seen miracles. I've never seen a limb regrown, except things like lizard tails, but the LORD could do it. It is a mistake to expect the desired result only in the literal manner you requested, but Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. Although I didn't see it, I do believe it.
If you don't have any faith, I know the tirekicking can be easy, but you haven't SEEN it yet. Pray and ask for faith.
PS
The photos could have been taken on the very same day.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
Lies and ignorance from a Christian are still lies and ignorance, regardless of your faith or lack thereof. You are illogically saying that if you don't have faith that a thing exists that you necessarily have faith that it does not. Agnosticism is a valid point of view regardless how much Xtian trolling you do.
you:
"Lies and ignorance from a Christian are still lies and ignorance, regardless of your faith or lack thereof."
me:
And, honesty and informedness from a Christian are still honesty and informedness. Regardless of YOUR faith.
you:
"You are illogically saying that if you don't have faith that a thing exists that you necessarily have faith that it does not."
me:
I didn't say that logically OR illogically. In fact I didn't say that at all. And I'm not saying it now, either. Post a link and a quote, if you insist.
you:
"Agnosticism is a valid point of view regardless how much Xtian trolling you do."
me:
Let's be fully clear about this. I posted a verse from Genesis, and THEN the TROLLING started AGAINST my post.
Now. Agnosticism is CONCEPTUALLY valid, but it's SPIRITUALLY insufficient.
If you insist on disbelieving God, or doubting Him, YOU WILL STILL BE JUDGED BY GOD. That might be a hard day if you never believed until then. If/When, just remember that the LORD hears all prayers, and never give up.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
> I didn't say that at all
You said it like this:
> > > Antifaith is still faith
That is exactly what that sentence means.
Well I posted this one a few days ago. If you read it, you'll see that I was not using that definition of antifaith.
o ld=0&commentsort=0&mode=thread&pid=15955434#159572 17
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=194622&thresh
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
To think that there is no such thing as a god is the default stance, and therefore takes no faith. To come up with a new idea that has no evidence and still believe it is true, that's whan faith comes into play. To reverse the logic a bit, if one is completely devoid of any faith in anything, they would necessarily be an atheist. Therefore, to say that an atheist has "faith" that something doesn't exist is ridiculous.
You might as well say that you have "faith" that gravity exists. Believing in the theory of gravity or not does not change the fact that we are all being pulled towards the Earth. Of course, I can't prove that EVERYONE is pulled towards the Earth, but my belief that gravity affects everyone is not a matter of faith; it is a thought based on observation, logic, and information shared by other people. And the complete lack of evidence to the contrary.
OK now. "[atheism] 'is the default stance, and therefore takes no faith.'" Is that your claim?
I believe you're right, UNTIL a person has been exposed to the IDEA of God. Then they're forced to CHOOSE: atheist, agnostic or believer.
AT THAT JUNCTURE, FAITH is required to choose atheist OR believer. NO FAITH is required to choose agnostic.
There is a great bible verse, here: John 20:29
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
OK, and now you say that "Believing in the theory of gravity or not does not change the fact that we are all being pulled towards the Earth."
And I say that believing in the LORD or not does not change the fact that HE exists, and one day we will all be judged, and you're BLESSED if you DID believe in HIM. YOU might not SEE the PROOF, but the PROOF is THERE. The PROOF is in the SPIRIT, and the SPIRIT comes from ACCEPTING Christ as the savior, whom the LORD SENT, the spirit comes from that, and from PRAYING TO GOD.
I spent the first 30 years of my life being spiritually blind, and arguing some of the same things that most of my would-be rebuttalists have attempted. Now I see, and I'M TELLING YOU, there's more to life than philosophy, forensics and cold empirical science.
For starters, GOD EXISTS, and HELPS THOSE WHO PRAY. God would help you, too. In fact, HE HAS BEEN helping you every day of your life, whether you know it or not.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
> HE HAS BEEN helping you every day of your life
He has a pretty shitty track record in "helping." I prayed for things (and not necessarily selfish things) at a point in my life when my faith was very strong. The result has been worse than random chance. Of course, I prayed for things when my faith wasn't so strong, although I wouldn't expect any help at that point.
If the way my life is is the result of being "helped," I might as well kill myself now, because I have very little to be thankful or hopeful for; at least in things that really matter to me. For instance, my career is alright. I don't make much money, but I don't need (nor want, in a way) much money. But I've never prayed for a good job. God hasn't helped me find love. God hasn't even helped me find good friends. God hasn't helped me feel happy, whether it was when I was young, when I was a bit older and "born again," or after I realized my faith didn't make any difference and my life was, in fact, worse than it had been beforehand.
Basically, regardless of what it is that I've wanted -- whether I prayed for it or not -- it hasn't happened.
As for "proof," that word does not mean what you think it means. Proof is something you can point to and say "see?" and you can see it. "Proof" is not a feeling, which is all you have. I have quite a bit of evidence to the contrary, and none for.
I hate Liberals and Conservatives.
If you are a Liberal or a Conservative, then HAVE A NICE DAY!
Courage.
I have genuine sympathy, and your complaints sound like they could have been my own, at a certain time of my life. I've struggled through tribulations, and the LORD has not always answered my prayers with the things that I considered most desirable. But He's always answered my prayer and my EFFORT with rewards. Those rewards haven't always been physically tangible; some of them have been on the INSIDE: will power, endurance, patience, forebearance, enjoyment of time spent alone, that sort of thing.
s %2020&version=9 keeping sexual morality, speaking evil against no person, and spreading the Gospel. Christ said faith can move mountains. Seek and ye shall find. I hope you do find faith.
There was a time that my prayer was answered with a very harsh negative rebuke. I wasn't praying respectfully; perhaps that's why.
Anyhow, I assure you that you have ALOT to be thankful for, and it never hurts to give thanks for the things that you have. Food, a place to live, freedom, health, family, hobbies and interests, convenience, sense of contentment in the things you enjoy, etc.
If you have the luxury of DOUBTING God's existance then you haven't seen his wrath, and you haven't seen demons either; that's a very comfortable place, believe it or not.
When will YOUR prayers be answered? I can't say. But I've prayed and asked the LORD to help you, and I believe He will do that.
The book of Job provides a reasonable response to some of your experience.
As for proof, until you've SEEN the proof, remember: John 20:29 "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
You say it's not tangible, and there's no proof, but to me there IS proof. The evidence I have is in the Spirit. The spirit isn't just a feeling, it's how the LORD communicates with people. That means the LORD communicates with me, and my prayers are answered in a meaningful way.
The LORD helps you in ways that you might not recognize today; you will possibly come to recognize them later. For starters, I assure you, He protects you from ALOT. (Blessed are the poor in spirit, for they will be SHELTERED.) There are things in this world that you don't want to see. Demons, for instance. Thank the LORD. In the meantime, it is VERY important to love (and fear) the LORD even if you don't see proof of his existance.
Those who believe the LORD sent Christ and keep his teachings do this: LOVE the LORD, love your neighbor as yourself, love your enemies, not retaliating against evil, always forgiving, not judging one another, praying for your enemies, helping the poor, lending to those who ask, being a good samaritan, keeping the LORD's 10 commandments, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=exodu
You mentioned you were born again, but the refresher never hurts. It is worth making the effort. God Bless You.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer