Reverse Off-Shoring

punkish writes "India is becoming more attractive to information technology workers from Western countries. Some local IT companies, such as Infosys Technologies in Bangalore, are now able to offer salaries and other perks that are comparable to what Western IT talent would find in their home countries. Infosys, which is currently training 126 Americans at its cutting-edge complex in Mysore, expects to employ 300 Americans by the end of 2006 and add a large contingent from Great Britain next year."

Comments

Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[LiquidCoooled]

Its not exactly reverse outshoring, but it shows how tides change.
Which country will be the next cheap target?
When will we come full circle and realise that there are dedicated capable individuals in the original countries?
I speak to people from all around the world and there are examples of in-country outshoring occuring (jobs in London being replaced with staff in Manchester - its simply cheaper up North) and the London staff were just as outraged, its peoples lives the managers are playing with and sometimes the bottom line isn't that important.
I would make a terrible manager because as long as I could break even in my field I would be happy.

Re:Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[Hydryad]

No kidding, but I think that it is basically reverse-overshoring, in that they are getting people from a _more_ expensive location.

Re:Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[LiquidCoooled]

I read it as "if you can't beat them, join them" mentality.
After all, if you find yourself without a viable job in your country, whats wrong with taking a gap year and going travelling the world on a busmans holiday?

Re:Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[leeum]

I thought your post was particularly interesting, so I feel moved to comment.

The bottom line is, unfortunately, very important. Remember that the companies that can afford to offshore/outshore are generally larger companies which tend to be shareholder-owned and require either equity or debt financing.

The trouble with being beholden to shareholders is that capital really is mobile and shareholders are normally a greedy bunch. If the business does not offer a good bottom line - leading to all the things that shareholders like to have, for example a good dividend or a good rise in the share price, shareholders will tend to want to move their money elsewhere. Assume that you can invest in company A which offers a 4% return on equity or company B which offers a 10% return on equity. Which would you invest in as a shareholder?

You may argue that shareholders are increasingly placing more importance on things like corporate social responsibility and so on, but as a shareholder myself, I can tell you that it's really really hard to make an assessment based on that. The corporate social responsibility movement is plagued by the fact that MANY companies make promises (to varying degrees of compliance) and it costs me a LOT of time and effort to check which ones actually comply with their statements or not. Ultimately, I throw my hands up in the air, give up, and use ROE for my investment decisions.

I disagree that you'd make a bad manager, I think you'd be a great one in certain conditions. You might not be a great manager in a profit-driven, shareholder-owned multinational corporation but the business world isn't exclusively those. There are lots of smaller companies which are more local and people-focused which is where I think your refreshing attitude would be a valuable asset.

Re:Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[SCHecklerX]

What most managers fail to realise is that a skilled staff can actually decrease that bottom line using innovation and skill instead of buying an endless stream of products, licenses, and investment in training of 'cheap' outsourced staff. That is the situation I run into all the time with my own company. There have been situations where we have taken the time to run the numbers and prove that we had a solution, already in place except for one component (that was the decision to be made) that performed beyond expectation, was less expensive than other methods, and was also manageable by lower paid, less skilled staff, allowing us to focus on other things. Despite this, they STILL chose to outsource the entire infrastructure. This cost roughly 3x the money, and there have been several problems with the implementation causing disruption to business to date. And, since it's fully outsourced, we exert no real control over getting problems resolved. Businesses need to trust their own staff (Isn't that why they hired them in the first place?) and let them use their skills to hit that bottom line rather than listen to vendors' (outsourcing and otherwise) claims of lower cost, higher quality, and reduced SLA (I've never seen a single one ever be better than what we would have done ourselves). Vendors selling you products and staffing services have NO VESTED INTEREST in your company's success. Your own employees DO!

Re:Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[Destoo]

Which country will be the next cheap target?

China.

There are currently great opportunities within IBM for those who speak mandarin.

Re:Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[Ph33r th3 g(O)at]

For things that don't require a large population with a good command (albeit with accent) of English, yes. India benefited from having been a British colony prior. The only part of China I can see that's similarly advantaged with respect to language is Hong Kong.

Re:Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[FlyingGuy]

Hey Leeum,

Great post. I think there is something else going on here though, as well as what you have mentioned. I call it the Great Circle of Cheep ( GCC ).. Uhmm I didn't intend for those initials.

The news is flashed in milliseconds that XYZ Corp will miss the "streets" target by 2 cents. Hurry run run run to your broker or on-line equivilent and get your money out of this poorly performing POS company! This causes management to focus on nothing but share price and meeting some analyst's often rediculous expectations of "growth" instead of making great products. Trying to shave pennies here and pennies there. That part they decided they could save that 4 pennies on by making it platic instead of metal breaks and me, the consumer, is utterly pissed off because my $300.00 widget is no unusable and I have to go buy a new one because of the throw away society we have built.

This makes me think the company that made it are really dumb and so i dont want to buy their products anymore which makes the share price slip, so management in their never ending share price quest either slashes work force or quality again to bolster the share price to meet "expectations", but alas its only short term at best.

The global race for cheep labor. Yeah well it started in Japan. Japanese workers started demanding western ( US ) levels of waqes and benefits. Then its off to Tiawan, and then they start wanting more for their work. Then off to Korea and now they ar wanting more. Then off to... Pick the next company where they can find a cheap, but talented labor pool. Pretty soon it will land right back here, and we will be the cheeper but talented labor pool.

Steel production left the US for two basic reasons. The first of which the companies were myopic, they didn't see the rest of the world starting to build the infastructure to make steel. People in this country started getting the idea that vast smelting omplexes were poisoning the environment and they started demanding that those companies clean things up, a popular, but very expensive notion, yet now in hindsite not as expensive as they thought if judged by the utter lack of steel production and whole parts of the country still economicaly depressed because of it. How much longer before Korea heads down the same rode and steel production moves to a new place to save the money that should be used to make clean(er) steel production.

How much longer before India will no longer tollerate the massive poisoning of their coast from ship breaking and that moves to the next place where governments will turn a blind eye?

The cycle will continue aroudnt he globe. I dont know if it will make it back to the US since I doubt you will have ships being driven onto the shore in the gulf coast and an army of poor people scrambling onto them with cutting torches simply because it would not be tollerated.

Re:Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[daviddennis]

First, you're wrong. If you were a business owner, you would have to make a profit to pay yourself. It's not an easy thing to do. I know this as the battle-trained owner and partner in several different business ventures.

Second, I'm living proof that this concept has appeal. I plan to move to the Philippines when I have my new venture somewhat sorted. Why? Because if it can make $2,000 a month I can live very well, even a bit extravagently. I think I have found something that has potential to make that amount, and then I would be happy living in a place I enjoyed being in.

If I wanted to live in a place I enjoyed (Woodland Hills, in Los Angeles) in the US, it would cost over $8,000 a month. If I wanted to live in a place I really loved (Newport Beach, California, by the sea near Los Angeles) it would cost more like $100,000 a month. It just makes sense to say "Wait a minute, you can work and slave a whole lifetime and not do that well" and consider that maybe the third world has more to offer you than the first.

$2,000 a month in the Philippines gives you a cook, a maid and a luxurious house. Increase it by about $1,000 and you can live on a beautiful beach with lots of amenities. So if I can live cheaply, building my business from and beyond, I can also hire much cheaper Philippines nationals where I am, to do my work. Again, something I could not do in the US on budgets even vaguely close to that.

Third world countries nowadays feature friendly people, beautiful women and perfectly functional DSL. And there is a special bonus: those beautiful women are really interested in middle-aged single American guys, who are total losers in love as long as they stay here.

That advantage can make up for a lot of inconvenience, government corruption and so on.

D

Re:Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[LiquidCoooled]

Breakeven = all costs wages and overheads. It would be stupid to operate at a loss.
Anything above breakeven goes back to the company for future stability and development.

Re:Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[ubergamer1337]

and use ROE for my investment decisions. You follow the Rules of Engagment to invest? Thats hardcore.

Re:Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[leeum]

I'm afraid I think you need to be aiming a little higher than breakeven.

Assuming you're paying yourself a wage in line with what you get working for some other company, you're actually operating at a loss. Don't forget the opportunity costs. Just for starting a business, you are opening yourself up to a lot more risk - relatively unstable income and cash flows, for one. Suppliers are going to insist you pay up fully on time whereas customers tend to try to find ways to delay payment for as long as possible.

At some point, you're probably going to have to start looking for some form of external financing in the form of a bank loan or by selling shares in your company to someone else. If you are only managing for breakeven, nobody's going to buy the shares and the bank will probably be loathe to loan any money to you unless you put up a large sum of collateral since, from the perspective of the bank manager, you'd be quite a substantial credit risk. Business would become increasingly more difficult then.

For any investment decision, the benchmark I always try to beat is the yield on long-term government bonds. Since those are generally assumed to be the safest available option, you'd need to try to beat those figures to compensate for the additional risk that you're taking on.

Re:Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[automandc]

I agree that the bottom line is very important (shareholders or no shareholders), but I want to add a couple of additional thoughts about "shareholders" today.

First, when people think of "shareholders" they think of individuals -- even if it is wealthy individuals like Warren Buffet. But that isn't the reality. The "shareholders" with weight are the large institutions -- i.e. mutual funds and pension programs. The NY and California public employee pension funds are 2 of the most powerful investors on Wall Street now, and have begun using that power to drag some social responsibilty out of corporations.

Second, shareholders -- of whatever type -- seem to me, a non-financial person, to be a very fickle lot. About every 20 years the criteria for what makes something a "good" company changes. Once, it was sales numbers. Then, in probably the '60s or '70s, it shifted to dividends. Dividends isn't a bad metric, because it combines two factors: (1) how much profit the company is making, and (2) how much it is willing to give back to the shareholders. Plus, the dividend is a direct and renewable return on your investment. I may take 4% return on my stock this year, and, without doing anything, take another 4% next year. If I look only to share price, then I have to sell my shares to realize the gain, leaving me with no future return. In the past 10 years or so the focus has shifted to earnings growth -- i.e., how much MORE profit the company made this year over last. I just cannot figure out the logic of using that as a metric. If a company that earned 5% last year announces it is going to make 10% this year, that tells me one of two things: either you are admitting you are incompetent, and could have earned 10% this year; or you are planning to slash and burn for the sake of immediate return without view towards the future. I would point to H-P as probably the epitome of that kind of thinking.

So, maybe one of you financial types can explain to me why I should want stock in a company that exhibits good earnings growth, particularly when almost no company actually pays a dividend worth discussing anymore.

Re:Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[hutchike]

Which country next? Try Mexico. Their IT skills and services are lame, but as a place for tech-savvy foreigners, it's great. I've been here 4 years.

Re:Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[bladesjester]

There are other reasons that profit margins may increase besides reduction of incompetence or slash and burn tactics (though those two things most certainly do happen). Among the other reasons are the following:

New products
New markets
Reduced costs due to things such as the streamlining of processes by which the product is made

One of those three things may cost jobs (#3 due to things like automation). However, the first two, if done properly, can be performed in a socially responsible way and actually lead to more jobs.

It's just sad that most companies opt to make more profit via the reasons you stated and not the more positive ones.

Re:Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[sgt_doom]

You sound like an IT guy, so I'm going to take the time to give a synopsis of what's going on as you actually appear clueless as you are using logic to explain and entirely illogical situation as it exists today (also, it appears only truly symbolic analyst-types, people who can hold a tremendous amoung of knowledge concurrently in their heads [i.e., thousands of lines of complex code] while manipulating that knowledge and perceiving both the overt and subtle patterns, can fully comprehend the nature of what's happening today):

It is all about greed --- it is all about power and control --- that is ALL it is about. Copy that, amigo???? It ain't about no bottom line, chum --- we have a shadow government today that has both trashed and subverted the US government --- that have profited to the tune of approximately $100 billion (that's from public sources - who the hell knows how much they've really profited by????)!

I give you only two groups of coincidences --- and if you've ever studied advanced statistics and are familiar with the probability - and improbability - of coincidences - you will see the light:

(1) That stock trading that was reporting regarding 9/11/01 (the puts on those airlines involved as well as several of the firms residing in the WTC Towers) took place through investment firms actually physically residing in the towers, as well as their computer systems physically residing there. Some of the damaged hard drives were recovered by the FBI, then submitted to the German data recovery firm, Convar, which was purchased at the same time by Kroll Associates (the firm having overall security of the WTC). Convar returned all the recovered data to the FBI - who did not follow up on the financial investigation.

Re:Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[sgt_doom]

Sorry, forgot to add the second group of coincidences (among many, many hundreds of far too many "coincidences"):

A significant number of the passengers who had registered ahead for their tickets (there was a last-minute group on Flight 91 - which had been scrubbed due to a crack on the cockpit window, and substituted with Flight 93 - which greatly increased the passenger count that day) fell into one of three curious categories:

(1) passengers involved with the creation of a terrorist simulation horrifically similar to the actual 9/11/01 attacks that day,

(2) passengers involved with the development of Remote Vehicle Piloting software, and

(3) passenger(s) involved with the investigation of Flight 800.

These 2 groups of rather unique "coincidences" should give all those "coincidence theorists" out there something to ponder....

Re:Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[pcnetworx1]

Got a source for those, sgt_doom? Cuz those would be really intriguing if that is for real.

Re:Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[MLease]

"and use ROE for my investment decisions. You follow the Rules of Engagment to invest?"

I think he misspelled "ROA" -- the Rules of Acquisition.

-Mike

Re:Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[plopez]

There are a number or replies as to what this is about, why even when you can make a business case it get seemingly over ruled by managers.

I suspect there are a number of things in play, such as distrust of internal staff, the managers' egos etc. but I will put forward my own hypothesis as well.

I refer to it as 'Cargo Cult Management'. Managers are very much 'herd' animals. The herd heads off in a direction and they follow. After all, most managers are *not* selected for risk taking.

An aspect of this herd mentality is that fads develop such as my parody of management booke I like to use the "The 7 effective habits 10-minute TQM nine nines management guide". They read these guides, do not understand what they really mean but thrash around trying to implement parts of it without understanding what it is they are implementing. Hence the term 'Cargo Cult Management', they really do not understand what is happening but they go through the motions any way.

Sooo.. if a certain company makes money on the web, the managers, being herd animals, jump on the band wagon without really inderstanding *how* to use the web for their businness.

Sooo... if a certain company makes money offshoring, the managers feel the pressure to join the stampede to offshore without too much thought involved.

Add to that the sales guys who show up touting their offshoring 'solution' reinforcing the stampede and I think you see what I am getting at. In addition these sales guys probably dress like they are successful and since we are talking about 'Cargo Cults' the symbol or appearance of success is as important as actual success (this also holds when reporting to superiors).

So nothing you say can change this really. They know you, and you are not as successful as the offshoring sales guy or company Foo who attribute higher profits to sending jobs overseas (even though there are so many factors at play that random variability is just as likely a cause of the higher profits).

The day will come, and it may be already happening, when the new fad will be 'inshoring'. Just be ready to surf the wave when it comes.

And if you do not understand the concept of a 'Cargo Cult' see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

If I wasn't crazy, I'd be really depressed....

Re:Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[Fulcrum of Evil]

The news is flashed in milliseconds that XYZ Corp will miss the "streets" target by 2 cents. Hurry run run run to your broker or on-line equivilent and get your money out of this poorly performing POS company!

Meanwhile, the smart investors wait for the sheep to go get killed and buy more stock on the cheap (yay!)

This causes management to focus on nothing but share price and meeting some analyst's often rediculous expectations of "growth" instead of making great products.

Or the company points to their own guidance, which is spot on. Instead of trying to move the stock price or doing something stupid like focusing on earnings or GAAP profits, perhaps they focus on positive cashflow or ROIC. Not all companies are so short sighted.

Re:Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[bigpicture]

For cost of doing business items such as IT it is usually the least NPV of expenditures calculation. Unless a company is actually in the IT "core" business there is no ROI or ROE on IT expentitures. But there is for investment in the "core" business.

As for the shareholders, a lot of these used to be institutions, like pension funds, trust funds etc. Because of the market whims, a lot of these are investing in non publically traded companies, and buying out complete control.

This usually ends up being better value investing, as most of the stock market is already overpriced by comparison. I know where I would want my pension fund to be, and that is not in the Vegas style stock market where everything is a gamble, with the odds not in my favor. I would prefer that it be in real value investing.

Re:Indians will complain about foreigners soon

[sgt_doom]

Simply do the research yourself (can't understand why you - or anyone else hasn't yet - chronic laziness and ignorance, perhaps???) - there's plenty of sites containing the passenger manifests of those 4 flights (assuming they haven't been web-scrubbed) - I'm no longer particularly interested in wasting my valuable time in providing sources for people who then ignore said sources - it has become the byword of the TV generations and neocons....(and that includes all those stenographers [who go by the phony title "journalist"] who have ignored the facts and refused to do even the slightest bit of investigative journalism over the past 5 years)....

Why not?

[nz_mincemeat]

The cost of living in India would be lower than the home country + comparable wages = ability to save.

Re:Why not?

[Umbral Blot]

But crappier infastructure + being a cultural outsider + far from american friends and family = lower quality of life

Re:Why not?

[freedom_india]

Crappier infrastrcuture??? At 300 million mobile phones, i wish to think different. GPRS/WAP/MMS/ ask and you will find ATLEAST 3 providers fighting to provide you service at terms that you would find juicy when compared to US.

Cultural Outsider: Agreed. But cities like Bombay and Pune are so culturally varied with Americans, Germans and even French indians think themselves as outsiders.

Far from american friends???: Do you know the local DSL provider provides you with 1 Mbps connection at $100 a month? Agreed it is costlier, but the connection is 89% uptime.

Think abd verify before you answer.

Re:Why not?

[megrims]

Or look at it this way:

Westerner - super_high_level_of_consumerist_culture == better_off

Spend some time in a third world country and you'll see what I mean. Admittedly, it's not so drastic in the cities, but you'd be surprised. I was.

Re:Why not?

[onion2k]

89% uptime = Offline for more than a month every year = Absolutely terrible, and definitely not good enough for keeping in touch with friends.

Re:Why not?

[nxtw]

There's more to infrastructure than mobile phone networks.

Re:Why not?

[niceone]

On the other hand, if you're already a bit of an outsider, living somewhere else has the advantage that people will think you're an outsider because you're foreign, rather than because you're just plain weird ;)

Re:Why not?

[rbarreira]

Far from american friends???: Do you know the local DSL provider provides you with 1 Mbps connection at $100 a month? Agreed it is costlier, but the connection is 89% uptime.

Are you crazy? First of all 89% uptime is bullshit, it means the connection will be down for 3 days a month. Second, what does "far" have to do with a DSL connection? You have to be very nerdish to think a DSL connection compares to being actually close to your friends.

Re:Why not?

[killjoe]

That's only because virtually everything you buy is made with the labor of children, indentured slaves, and untouachables. It's easy to buy a house for 10K when all your bricks are loaded into trucks by 14 year old girls.

Re:Why not?

[TheRaven64]

Do you know the local DSL provider provides you with 1 Mbps connection at $100 a month? Agreed it is costlier, but the connection is 89% uptime.

Is this supposed to be good? Here in the UK, I am paying about half that for four times the bandwidth and I can't remember the last time there was any downtime.

I can see the advantage in moving somewhere with a rich cultural heritage and a low cost of living, but if infrastructure is that much more expensive then it looks like a much less interesting proposition.

Re:Why not?

[nephridium]

But crappier infastructure + being a cultural outsider + far from american friends and family = lower quality of life

Widening your cultural background + meeting other people and making new friends + broadening your horizon and learning new things in the process = a richer life filled with more challenges and experiences

Re:Why not?

[Anonymous Coward]

After spending a few hours on digg is becomes pretty quickly aparent how uptight the mods are in /.

Re:Why not?

[MPHellwig]

Another very fine example that a funny post holds more truth then something marked as insightful.

Re:Why not?

[Anonymous Coward]

But crappier infastructure + being a cultural outsider + far from american friends and family = lower quality of life

As a tech worker from America, living in China, I understand what you're saying but I don't agree. There's the flip side that living in a foreign country is an interesting experience, r that friends and family can still visit and talk via e-mail or the phone. While I don't live a palatial lifestlye because it's not my habit, I easily could, and as it is I save up a huge percentage of what I earn.

It's not perfect, it's not for everybody, and it's certainly not for people with a wife & kids, but for many people I think it is great. For me I definitely consider it a step up in my quality of life.

Re:Why not?

[snoopsk]

I am a recent CS graduate hired by TCS (Tata Consultancy Services) and am completing a 3 month on-the-job training program in India. I spent 1 month in Trivandrum and am currently residing in Pune.

As someone who has grown up in the US, I have experienced a drastic reduction in the standard of living to which I am accustomed. Even though my salary is many times higher than the average Indian and even though the buying power of the dollar is significantly better than the rupee (a good meal at a nice restaurant is less than $5), I still have difficulty attaining a decent standard of living in this country.

CONS
Power goes out for hours on end for no reason
Air pollution is unbearable
Internet is fairly slow (128-256kbps MAX) and unreliable
Prompt service is rare (fast food means about 20mins)
Quality electronics equipment is hard to find and very expensive

PROS
English is the most commonly spoke language
Cost of living is very low
Computer books are cheap (1/5 the US MSRP)

Other issues involve significant cultural differences between Indians and Americans. Indians have a take-life-as-it-comes attitude that spills over into every aspect of their life. Urgency, precision, and planning are not familiar concepts to the Indian unstructured lifestyle. This chaotic lifestyle causes frustration to the American who expects the consistency of a structured process.

Something as simple as a FIFO line, whether it be at a grocery store or a red light, is not implemented in India. Indians don't stand in line; they cluster. Also, driving in India is something that has to be experienced to be believed!

These cultural differences are at times perplexing, interesting, and frustrating.

I am enjoying my stay in India, but I am also counting the days until I get back home. The thrid-world lifestyle wears on the pampered American.

Re:Why not?

[Darkman, Walkin Dude]

Crappier infrastrcuture??? At 300 million mobile phones, i wish to think different.

You can wish all you like, but you'd still not understand what he was talking about. He means things like roads, indoor plumbing, you know... infrastructure. Not mobile phones. This whole story is laughable in any case, I mean what, in 2004 25% of India's population was below the poverty line, which is, wait for it, about 8 dollars a month. Indians won't be getting western wages anytime soon, and if they do, you know what will happen? The companies will move straight on to China. Or south east asia. Or Russia. Companies don't go to India because they like the curry, they go there because its cheap. Thats what we call the bottom line.

Re:Why not?

[thinduke]

I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of slashdotters suddenly booked a one-way ticket to New Delhi.

Re:Why not?

[Courageous]

No. There's some element of cheap, plus English speaking. But of course, otherwise you are right. Cost is everything. You do not, of course, have to make a western wage to live and settle there. You have to make a wage that will buy you a cool house and more than cover your expenses. There is, of course, the little matter of ever returning home...

C//

Re:Why not?

[soft_guy]

You really think mobile phones and internet access make up for being around your family and friends?

Re:Why not?

[Thundersnatch]

At 300 million mobile phones

Who cares about mobile phones? They have a negative impact on quality of life when they do work.

I think the GP was referring to things like: sewers, highways, clean water, state-of-the-art hospitals, good schools, inspected produce and meat, a huge variety of consumer goods, and all the other trappings of Western societies. These things are in short supply in many parts of India, China, and other off-shoring centers.

Re:Why not?

[Anonymous Coward]

As a person who stays in India quite often (I do research there) I have to disagree.

Yes India has made a unbelievable leap, but the Infrastructure is still bad. For a pivate person, for companies it is much better and getting better every year.

I can't speak for Bangalore itself in that respect, but in other big cities you still have power cuts leaving you, unpredictable, without electricity for 5 to 30 minutes. (Companies have there ways to deal with that, but at home it just hits you. Computer down, AC off, lights off...)

The DSL, even if it has 89% uptime, is unreliable because you can't predict when and for how long it will be down. And internet is not a substitute for friends. (or is it? I'm looking at you /.-community!)

As for other facilities, you can't spend your free time as you might do in western contries. A lot of recreation infrastructure taken for granted are virtually non existant in India. Think of your favourite three! ... They are not there.

And even if Bangalore has a relatively bareable climate (for an Indian city), Hyderabad, the other IT-city has definitely not.

As for the "cultural outsider", even if there are a lot of returned expats in cities like Bangalore, Hyderabad, Delhi, Madras etc. in my experience one remains a outsider in these cities for a long time. A lot of Indians returning from abroad to, there you are right, but a lot of isolated people don't necessarily make a group. (Rural areas are much different in this respect, it's much easier to get a social live ther, but that's not where IT companies are and we shpuldn't speak about the infrastructure there, really.) And for both is true, there are still enormous social barriers between religions, castes (jats) etc. and being in closer contact with one side kicks you out of closer contact with the other.

To sum this horrible long post up: I can't see lots of western IT people going to India in the next years. The might be a number of individuals who will go there out of different reasons, but I am sure most of them will be really happy to leave after a year.

Re:Why not?

[Danga]

Funniest post I have seen in a LONG time. Nice work!

Re:Why not?

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever been to India?

Crappy infrastructure does not mean a lack of cell phones, it means a lack of usable roads, reliable electricity or sometimes even running water.

Add to that the lack of hygiene and privacy, the chance of ethnic/religious/social tensions, terrorism, dangerous traffic, diseases,.... It's a long list of things you take for granted in the US.

Don't get me wrong, India is a great and fascinating country, and things are definitely getting better, but if you have a choice of living long-term in either India or the US, you would be crazy to choose India. Why do you think so many Indians come to work in the US on HB-1 visas?

Re:Why not?

[Anonymous Coward]

> Crappier infrastrcuture??? At 300 million mobile phones,

Well, I've been to bangalore, and the infrastructure is ninteen century-like. The reason why there are so much cell phone is because the landline are beyond crappy.

Road are next to inexistant.

The airport is a joke.

India is not about 'crappier' infrastructure, but plain and simple crap infrastructure.

No matter what 'freedom india' says.

Re:Why not?

[be-fan]

The infrastructure isn't as bad as Americans might think, and its not as gooda s the Indians want you to believe.

From first-hand experience, I can tell you that on a middle class US salary, you can live like a rich man in India. The western standard of living, with not just indoor plumbing, but central air, a luxurious house, satillite or cable TV, will all be present and accounted for. If you live in a major Indian city, the electricity will be highly reliable as well. You'll also get some perks middle-class westerners are not used to, namely a personal cook, maid, nanny, and often driver. This will be your standard of living at home, and at work, and often at the shopping areas and restaurants other well-to-do Indians frequent.

Now, the bad stuff. Your power will go out more often than here in the states, with how much more often depending on the exact area. Worse of all, as soon as you leave the comfortable world of the upper-classes, which will happen unless you shut yourself in, you'll have to deal with the masses of India's urban poor. Most Americans would not be comfortable wandering around anything but the posh areas of an Indian city. The filth, the poverty, the sheer number of beggers, the traffic, the pollution, etc, are something that are totally alien to all but America's hardened inner-city residents. Then there is the climate --- much of India is tropical, and if you're from a temperate part of the US, the heat and humidity will kill you. Imagine the hottest, most humid day in Georgia or Florida, summer torrential-downpours and all, except 10 degrees hotter, and with more frequent torrential downpours. Last but not least is the pervasive corruption. India is a lot better in this regard than some of its surrounding countries (Pakistan and Bangladesh), but the level of corruption is still something alien to Americans. For as much as Americans bitch about corruption, day-to-day corruption among the rank-and-file beauracracy in the United States is almost non-existant. Living in India, you WILL eventually have to pay a bribe to someone, whether it is to get your phone connected, pay a parking ticket, whatever.

Re:Why not?

[be-fan]

Indians have a take-life-as-it-comes attitude that spills over into every aspect of their life. Urgency, precision, and planning are not familiar concepts to the Indian unstructured lifestyle.

Yes! This will drive many Americans nutty, particularly those from uptight parts of the country (eg: northeast). For those who haven't experienced it: imagine the American South, except worse.

Something as simple as a FIFO line, whether it be at a grocery store or a red light, is not implemented in India. Indians don't stand in line; they cluster. Also, driving in India is something that has to be experienced to be believed!

Yep to that too. Then don't forget the hoking! Whenver your driving in any level of traffic in an Indian city, car horns are going off constantly. In the US, you can go weeks without hearing a car horn.

Re:Why not?

[Darkman, Walkin Dude]

From first-hand experience, I can tell you that on a middle class US salary, you can live like a rich man in India.

Absoloutely. However, my point was, why would they give someone a middle class salary in India, when they can give someone the same in the US without any of the associated problems? Reverse outsourcing is nonsense.

Re:Why not?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're also forgetting health risks due to disease.

You can't take anti-malarial drugs forever (ever seen the warning labels on Lariam? Holy moly!), HIV is still being widely ignored, and India is one of the reasons why immigrants to the U.S. have to undergo TB tests. Hepatitis is commonplace, too.

Even if you don't put yourself immediately at risk, you'll want to be careful about your maid, nanny, and cook.

Living like a rich man in India today is like living like a rich man in the U.S. 100 years ago -- no thanks.

Re:Why not?

[be-fan]

It's still much cheaper. You can pay an American in India $50K per year, and he can live the way he would in the US for $150K per year. Also, the cost of all the overhead (a rule of thumb is that the total cost of a worker is 2x is salary), is also a lot lower over there.

More generally, it's something that some Americans have been doing for a long time. Anybody who works in foreign development knows somebody who has taken a posting in a developing nation, because it allows them to save a huge amount of their salary.

Re:Why not?

[be-fan]

Yes, disease is a consideration, and it first it can be quite bad. My brother was born in the US, and when he visits Bangladesh, he takes sponge-baths with bottled water, because if he took a shower, he could get sick absorbing pathogens through the skin taking a shower in the local water. However, people who live there for some length of time will develop an immunity. Americans I know who work there regularly rarely get sick, because their bodies are used to the local conditions.

STDs and TB you won't build immunity to, of course, but those are largely non-issues. TB is something that's largely the result of environmental factors, and westerners just won't be subjected to the kind of environment that fosters TB. And of course, westerners won't be having sex with random women, as the cultural barriers to promiscuity in the upper classes are still quite strong.

Re:Why not?

[sgt_doom]

Dig it, dude!!! So if you don't like your wife in India, you can always give her an acid bath....then visit that super-rat village one always hears about in the McNews.....their last contribution to humanity was the Kama Sutra, just in case anyone's paying attention....I'm not being culturally insensitive here, but just how many Indians do you actually know?????

Re:Why not?

[Darkman, Walkin Dude]

It's still much cheaper. You can pay an American in India $50K per year, and he can live the way he would in the US for $150K per year.

See your weak link here is believing that corporations care about the quality of life of their staff. Also, keep in mind that they can employ an Indian to do the same job for $10k a year. Why would they waste money on sending an American? Couple this with your savings on overhead, and you can see why reverse outsourcing is ludicrous.

Anybody who works in foreign development knows somebody who has taken a posting in a developing nation, because it allows them to save a huge amount of their salary.

Ah but that's project control and coordination positions. Thats not reverse outsourcing, thats management. Outsourcing is where you find people who do the same job in other countries on the cheap; what you are talking about is putting in a few people to control all of these new employees.

Re:Why not?

[mnmn]

Youre on Slashdot.

Re:Why not?

[be-fan]

See your weak link here is believing that corporations care about the quality of life of their staff. Also, keep in mind that they can employ an Indian to do the same job for $10k a year. Why would they waste money on sending an American? Couple this with your savings on overhead, and you can see why reverse outsourcing is ludicrous.

Most successful corporations do care about the quality of life of their staff. Happy workers are much more productive workers. There are examples of ones that don't, but its a leap to make that a blanket epiteth to the entire industry. As for why they might send an American instead of employing an India, the answer is skills. Unless the job is something simple like making widgets or low-level IT, it might be very difficult to find a qualified Indian who can do the same job as an American already in the company's employment. The overhead savings is actually a large part of what makes this more attractive than you'd think.

Ah but that's project control and coordination positions. Thats not reverse outsourcing, thats management. Outsourcing is where you find people who do the same job in other countries on the cheap; what you are talking about is putting in a few people to control all of these new employees.

These projects don't usually break up well into the traditional "management/managed" metaphor. Usually, the actual work of the project is the planning, coordination, logistics, technical support, etc. The workers being coordinated are not usually employees of the company. In healthcare development, for example, they may be doctors and nurses already in the employment of local hospitals.

Re:Why not?

[be-fan]

I forgot to finish the first paragraph. The overhead savings is actually what makes this more attractive then you'd think, because its the same for both types of workers. If you have a guy making $75k in the US, he's costing you about $150k. In India, you could pay him $50k, with maybe another $10k in overhead. That's a total savings of $90k. Or, you could pay a local Indian worker $20k, with an overhead of $10k. Plus, you might incur $10k-$20k in training costs to get this worker up to par. If its a two-year job, we're looking at a savings of $110k for the Indian worker. That $20k difference is probably not enough to get you to take the risk of hiring the Indian worker. The savings from the reduced overhead was so substantial, that the extra savings from a lower salary are much less attractive, given the extra time, risk, and training involved.

Now of course, this isn't really applicable when the job in question is cookie-cutter and there is not a lot of extra training and risk is involved. Such is the risk of working cookie-cutter jobs. That doesn't mean that reverse outsourcing is bogus, however, because it happens all the time. There are tons of Americans at Intel India, for example, for precisely the reasons I outlined.

Re:Why not?

[Money for Nothin']

Crappier infrastrcuture??? At 300 million mobile phones, i wish to think different. GPRS/WAP/MMS/ ask and you will find ATLEAST 3 providers fighting to provide you service at terms that you would find juicy when compared to US.

India's infrastructure is mediocre.

"Infrastructure" doesn't refer just to cell phone providers. It refers to:

* Roadways
* Train systems
* Airline systems
* Electrical provision
* Clean water provision

and so forth. "Infrastructure" refers to all those basic goods and services which form the backbone of other goods/services -- they are goods/services which enable other goods/services to function.

In all of these areas, India sucks compared to the U.S. - or any 1st-world country for that matter. And a major reason why India is still not considered even a 2nd-world country is because India sucks in these regards. They are particularly bad at providing electrical service -- which, of course, IT relies-on as its lifeblood...

Re:Why not?

[sacbhale]

I am an Indian. And I agree with the grand-parent about the crappy infrastructure comment. Cell phones are only a small part of what counts as infrastructure and the DSL connections you boast about have a much larger downtime than acceptable. Also at 100$ a month the 1Mbps connection is restricted to 2GB/month. Its too damn costly.
The more important parts of Infrastructure like Roads and running water are messed up.
Talk about electricity. With most of India facing an electricity shortage where powercuts span hours on a daily basis.
Ya things are improving and yes its home and we love it but we should acknowledge what is wrong with it and try to fix it.

Re:Why not?

[Anonymous Coward]

...with not just indoor plumbing, but central air, a luxurious house, satillite or cable TV

But no spell checkers, apparently (human or otherwise).

Re:Why not?

[RedWizzard]

This whole story is laughable in any case, I mean what, in 2004 25% of India's population was below the poverty line, which is, wait for it, about 8 dollars a month.

In 1973 55% of India's population was living below the poverty line. Standards of living are improving rapidly over there.

Indians won't be getting western wages anytime soon, and if they do, you know what will happen?

They will in the IT industry. Not US salaries, but certainly salaries comparable to other western countries. Experienced programmers in the company I deal with in Bangalore earn about a third of what they would in Australia, for example.

Re:Why not?

[pipingguy]

Power goes out for hours on end for no reason
Air pollution is unbearable
Internet is fairly slow (128-256kbps MAX) and unreliable
Prompt service is rare (fast food means about 20mins)
Quality electronics equipment is hard to find and very expensive

Given that you are earning much above the norm for the location, I offer the following suggestions:

-buy a generator?
-just foreign smells or toxicity?
-no youtube for you, move
-you have no patience?
-outsource

Re:Why not?

[AmberBlackCat]

You have to be very nerdish to think a DSL connection compares to being actually close to your friends.

Well it is Slashdot.

Re:Why not?

[petermgreen]

There is, of course, the little matter of ever returning home...
and the matter of old age, poor countries don't exactly tend to have good free medical care (the US wrings out your savings first but i belive in the ultimate they do give it free to those with nothing left).

Re:Why not?

[petermgreen]

which, of course, IT relies-on as its lifeblood
you can make up for that with backup generators, i'd imagine communication is actually far more of an issue since there is little equivilent of the backup generator for it (there is satalite but thats expensive and very high latency).

Re:Why not?

[Courageous]

My wife, a disaster physician, has a great deal of contact with international medicine. Basically, the rule of thumb for american physicians, is this: if you have a serious medical difficulty in anything less than a top-of-the-line first world country, pay the expense, any expense, to travel to one. Including chartered helicopter by air, if that is what's required. That is, if you care about the life of your loved ones.

C//

Re:Why not?

[thej1nx]

2-3 days a month. It doesn't means your internet goes on the blink for 30 days in a row. And we have hundreds of cybercafes in every block. Ever heard about cybercafes ? Those places where you can pay a small amount to access internet for hours.

Re:Why not?

[thej1nx]

Thousands of Indians have sacrificed that and migrated to USA in order to have a better life. Cope or stop complaining.

Re:Why not?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Crappier infrastrcuture??? At 300 million mobile phones,[ediit]: Do you know the local DSL provider provides you with 1 Mbps connection at $100 a month? Agreed it is costlier, but the connection is 89% uptime.

Think abd verify before you answer."

  How many phone lines you have is not an indication of "infrastrcuture". Since about three-fifths of the work-force is in agriculture, (CIA fact book), moreover if you continue reading it says "leading the UPA government to articulate an economic reform program that includes developing *BASIC* infrastructure to improve the lives of the rural poor and boost economic performance." ...so I am not sure you got modded up so high..."think abt verify before you answer" ..okay - it is VERIFIED. How "abt you think abt verify before you" post

Re:Why not?

[rbarreira]

2-3 days a month. It doesn't means your internet goes on the blink for 30 days in a row.

OK, since you seem to be short-sighted, let's see it another way - 24 hours * 89% = 21.36 hours a day with Internet working. Does that still seem good to you?

About cybercafés, don't those have downtime too? Even if they don't, I don't want to get out from home and pay more money for a service I've already bought everytime the damn connection is down, especially if it happens 1 in 10 times on average...

Re:Why not?

[thej1nx]

Dude.

Get a grip on reality. All cybercafes in the city having a blackout the *same* time as your home connection ? You *have* to be nuts ... or paranoid.

A net connection costs a mere 10-20 dollars per month in India. If you are *that* much lazy to set your foot out of your house, I don't see what is so tough or expensive about having a second backup connection. Most mobile services, especially Reliance telecom, offer internet service via your mobile phone for almost *nearly* the same rates. Use that as your backup connection. It is not as if the entire internet backbone of the country goes down. Just individual ISPs who have server/proxy crashes or too many users logged in at same time.

With the reliance like services(internet via your cellphone), you pay only per minute basis, which comes down to just 1 dollar per hour, you cheapskate!! Corporate companies in India, manage 100% uptime by having a backup connection. Internet isn't that expensive there even fr the locals

Or stay home. It is a 3rd world country that isn't exactly profiting in billions of dollars by supplying killing weapons/missiles to other nations. It lacks infrastructure for the time being, and locals cope with it by applying their brains and using workarounds/compromises. The fact that you were neither able to apply your brains to think up the above backup connection solution, nor are willing to adjust/compromise, means that you are obviously not going to survive in an other part of the world. You are just not intelligent/smart enough.

Re:Why not?

[thej1nx]

Indeed. All the above is correct. However, Indians adapt. First of all, the IT industry exists usually in major cities, which do have good infrastructure. And regardless, alternatives exist to all things. Indians are very good at adapting. Electricity problems ? Sure. We would have solved it, but for USA sactioning against us, to try and prevent our nuclear research(which would have got us nuclear power plants to meet our energy needs, same as USA has used nuclear power plans to meet its own power needs. But apparently same is not to be permitted for India easily. Logic being that India will become a nuclear power, blindly ignoring that it already is a nuclear power, and USA itself sits on the biggest pile of nukes, which makes reasos for its sanctions questionable. Heck India, is not even a dictatorship.) Anyhow, most Indian IT companies happen to have backup power supplies. At no point does the work gets interrupted. It is assumed by default, that power failures will happen. Phone lines will fail. Water will not be clean, by default. And hence, Indians use backup power supplies, alternate means of communication if needed(Video conferencing via internet/multiple phone lines, use water filters to get clean water).

Yes, the poorer substrata of the population, doesn't gets to have all these alternatives. But we are not discussing them, are we ?

It is not as good as USA. But nor is it as bad as you believe.

Re:Why not?

[thej1nx]

We do tend to have multiple phone lines, from multiple providers, in case of businesses where it is so vital.

Re:Why not?

[freedom_india]

Why do you think so many Indians come to work in the US on HB-1 visas?

Because, the Govt. in India think discrimination based on caste and tribe is more important than merit.

In US selection by merit or Darwin's theory applies. In India, politicians have made it such that it doesn't matter if you score an A+ in high school, if you belong to a General community. OTOH, if you score a C- or even D, and you belong to one of the hundreds of low-caste tribes, you get a seat free of cost in a GREAT college and are virtually guaranteed a job in the Govt.

Now these stupid politicians are extending this theory to the Private Sector jobs too and are demanding laws be imposed on Private sector to force to employ lower-caste people who have NOT passed on merit, but instead have scored a C+ or C- all their lives.

Please note am not disparaging these people: There are excellent scholars and people who have scored A+ from lowe castes too. But they are very few and they too migrate abroad when they see they need to employ the average scorer.

These politicians are trying to avenge in 50 years and undo the damage done by 200 years of British Rule by forcible means like hitler.

Re:Why not?

[bill_mcgonigle]

but the level of corruption is still something alien to Americans

All the other things you mentioned wouldn't really bother me, but this turns out to be the deal-breaker. It's a shame, I've worked on projects with Indian companies where the deal was ultimately scuttled because multiple attempts to ship servers to India got stolen at customs (the DHL tracking site is funny that way).

For those interested in the subject, a good read is Why Poor Countries Are Poor.

Ouch

[Anonymous Coward]

MySore sounds like a painful web experience, but it's got nothing on MySpace.

Re:Ouch

[Anonymous Coward]

Myspace is how I got Mysore.

Its not just India.

[torpor]

Globalization is a reality. If you are still thinking that your local country offers the only market for your job, you are probably watching too much TV and consuming too much sugary fat, and in my opinion not travelling often, nor far and wide, enough.

My advice to the new globalist thinker: Travel far and wide and don't bother fooling yourself into thinking you ever actually 'own' a house (it owns you). Go nomad.

Whats needed in this day and age are people who step across language boundaries, and state borders, to work with each other, a functional group doing business who put this ideal of working together above personal posession and consumption. High-risk is not even half of it. It is far too riskier to pander to high and often mighty ideals of statehood in some parts of the world ..

PS- Unix runs everywhere.

Re:Its not just India.

[mccalli]

Globalization is a reality. If you are still thinking that your local country offers the only market for your job, you are probably watching too much TV and consuming too much sugary fat, and in my opinion not travelling often, nor far and wide, enough.

Or alternatively, perhaps your job isn't the most important thing in your life. Perhaps you have kids going through school, perhaps you have friends you want to stay in touch with, perhaps your dear old mum needs a hand...

Cheers,
Ian

Re:Its not just India.

[torpor]

Or alternatively, perhaps your job isn't the most important thing in your life. Perhaps you have kids going through school, perhaps you have friends you want to stay in touch with, perhaps your dear old mum needs a hand...

These are all luxuries of a highly refined caste which are ill-afforded the majority of the human popluation. Do you not see the emergency? Then this is not your story.

The poignancy, sweet and pungent, of Indian companies recruiting Americans, is that there are at least a million qualified individuals in the neighborhood, for every 100 bussed-in 'lucky person from country X', and its only the language of the caste which allows this to occur. Ironic, because language doesn't always nourish, it often feeds ..

Re:Its not just India.

[kolme]

don't bother fooling yourself into thinking you ever actually 'own' a house (it owns you).

Do you live... in Soviet Russia?

Re:Its not just India.

[leeum]

I like to think of myself as a globalist thinker however there are many things about the state of the world as it stands that really sticks in my side.

We absolutely need to be able to cross boundaries freely and work together. It is, economically speaking, the most sanguine decision we can make. However, politics and national ideals intervene.

I have lived in England for the past decade and, falling in love with the country and Europe in general, I've wanted to work in the European Union for quite a few years. However, for any employer to employ me (as a Malaysian), they have to first prove that no citizen of the country can fulfill the job requirements, before they widen their search to the EU in general. After this process has been done, I can be hired as a non-EU citizen. This takes time and money which many smaller companies or charities simply cannot afford so I would tend to be pushed in the direction of larger corporations which have the resources to perform such a search.

Furthermore, the selection process is clearly biased towards professional people seeking employment in large corporations. What if I was bitten by the entrepreneurial bug and wanted to start my own business? In the UK, I can't do that unless I provided 200,000 pounds of my own cash as start-up capital. Not VC-financed or a bank loan.

The concept of statehood was a great idea in establishing the concept of a national identity and a shared consciousness in the people living in it, but it is now obsolete. The trouble is knowledge and capital move much more freely than they did in the past few decades, but the freedom of movement in labour still has some way to catch up.

Re:Its not just India.

[Anonymous Coward]

Or alternatively, perhaps your job isn't the most important thing in your life. Perhaps you have kids going through school, perhaps you have friends you want to stay in touch with, perhaps your dear old mum needs a hand...

Exactly. Add this to the list racist locals and politicians eager to make you into an outlaw just on the basis of where you live, and you'll begin to realize just how hard the life of an immigrant is.

Re:Its not just India.

[LordLucless]

So friends and family are "luxuries of a highly refined caste which are ill-afforded the majority of the human popluation"?

I don't know where you're cut-and-pasting your rhetoric from, but you really should stop. It's annoying, doesn't help your point, and makes you sound like an imbecile.

Re:Its not just India.

[zarr0]

Already a nomad. Six cities in 7 years across 3 countries. Have given up hope of owning a house.

Re:Its not just India.

[eraserewind]

If you've been in the UK for a decade, are you not entitled to change your citizenship, or at least some form of permanent rezident status? While I appreciate you might not want to change nationality (I don't want to become a Japanese citizen for example, despite the benefits it would bring me and my family), if you are concerned about employment and entrepreneurship it is surely worth considering.

Secondly is it really true that you need 200k to start a business (as a foreigner?). A PLC perhaps, but a Ltd. company usually only requires something like 40 quid and a form. I doubt that the many many small businesses run by foreigners in the UK have 200k as capital investment.

Re:Its not just India.

[foniksonik]

I'm cool with everything except this part:

"don't bother fooling yourself into thinking you ever actually 'own' a house (it owns you). Go nomad."

This is a misguided misunderstanding of what owning a home should be. You are absolutely right if you think of a 'house' as your final resting point. You are absolutely wrong when you consider a 'house' to be Real Estate (the only real property in the world) and an investment and further a vehicle for future investment an wealth building. Real Estate values rise consistently in value well above stock markets, ie: the indexes which means they are a much better investment than anything like a 401k, mutual fund or similar portfolio type investment. Real Estate is probably the best SECURITY, in the financial sense, of all available.

So go ahead and go nomad if you want... but don't forget to buy some Real Estate along the way, preferably in a place where growth is expected but real estate values are depressed temporarily. In fact if you are a traveler you will get the best opportunities, if you're paying attention.

SO travel far and wide but also buy low and sell high.

Re:Its not just India.

[cyber-vandal]

Knowledge and capital need a lot less space than large numbers of humans moving from the many poor countries to the very few rich ones. Free movement of labour isn't practical when most of the labour would want to move to a fairly small area of the planet. I would never blame anyone wanting to come to the EU; it's a very nice place to live in comparison to most of the world, but we don't have infinite living space here.

Re:Its not just India.

[Abcd1234]

Ahh, but you see, being an imbecile is *also* one of the luxuries of a highly refined caste. He's just exercising one of the many privileges that we in the west are lucky enough to enjoy in abundance: stupidity.

Re:Its not just India.

[leeum]

The 40 quid and a form allows you to register a company in the UK, which is a requirement for registration with Companies House, I believe.

The 200,000 quid is a separate requirement that's imposed by the Home Office on foreign nationals, I suppose as a deterrent for people who start little "businesses" that are shell companies and merely used to circumvent the normal immigrations process. The money has to be owned by the business and used for business purposes and cannot be taken out for a period of (I believe) 5 years. For a start up, that's immense.

With regards to ten years living in the UK, you can change your status to a permanent residence but under some other quite restrictive requirements. You cannot have left the country for a total of 18 months throughout the entire time period, and you must have stayed in the country for the past 3 years continuously prior to making the application. Given that people nowadays tend to be posted abroad for business, or pursue other (temporary) opportunities in other parts of the world nowadays, that's an extremely tough act to follow.

Re:Its not just India.

[be-fan]

His point is that the comfortable lives we lead as Americans, including our ability to be constantly in touch with friends and family, is one that we live by virtue of us being Americans, not by virtue of our hard work, etc. What globalization means is the breaking down of that "caste". You don't get to live comfortably just because you're an American. In a way, this sounds egalatarian, but at the same time, its really not what Americans want. We don't want fairness, we don't want equality of opportunity, we want to live more comfortably just through the sheer virtue of being American.

Re:Its not just India.

[leeum]

If you're talking about real estate in terms of things like Real Estate Investment Trusts (REITs), I agree with you to some extent. It's arguable, however, that real estate is the best security of all available.

I forgot who authored the study, but it was referenced in a book by Burton Malkiel called "A Random Walk on Wall Street", which said that investments in a diversified equities portfolio over a long period of time (assuming that all dividends are reinvested) have demonstrated the greatest returns over all other investment choices. Which makes sense if you think about how the value of the Dow Jones Industrial Average has appreciated over the past few decades.

That being said, if you're talking about real estate in terms of purchasing a house or an apartment somewhere, it's a potentially expensive venture that may or may not work out.

Firstly, the way you make relatively steady cash flows from owning any property is by renting it out. Rental income can be difficult - you have issues with renters not paying up on time (or at all, in some cases) and you need to incur costs to protect those cash flows, whether by taking on the services of a property agent or by litigation if it should come to that. These costs need to be priced in.

Secondly, these properties need to be maintained. A lot of apartments require service charges from every owner just to keep the facade of the building clean (and so on), some of which can be quite substantial depending on where your property is located. If you bought a house, you'd also need to constantly pay to keep it in a saleable condition.

Finally, you have the problem of liquidity. You can't easily sell off a house or an apartment at the price you want and the time you want just because the potential purchaser might be unhappy about something (doesn't like the fact that the nearest bus stop is a 15 minute walk away, for example).

It's not impossible to make money off real estate. I know some people who make a LOT doing it but you have to really know your market well and the mantra seems to be "LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION".

Re:Its not just India.

[foniksonik]

Moving on to more important aspects... real estate appreciates in value regardless of whether you maintain it, rent it or just let it sit there deteriorating. If you finance it then sure your mortgage is an issue. Which is when renting becomes a headache if that's what you're doing... don't bite off more than you can chew. Put a large down payment on any rental property so that you can easily make your mortgage payment whether there is a tenant or not. You can do this by taking an equity loan against your personal residence or if you're a nomad ;-p you'll just have to build up some capital (which is harder IMHO when you're flushing money away renting).

And hire a reputable management company to take care of your rental property(s)... don't do it yourself... they manage hundreds of properties and have bulk supply and servicing options you don't have that keep their costs down. What costs you hundreds for repairs from a 3rd party costs them tens to have done by their own private staff of maintenance crews.

Finally, who cares about liquidity when you can simply borrow against your equity... never pay in cash when there is nearly free money from someone else to do the buying for you. Invest your cash in an additional interest bearing fund of some sort, make it a money market account if you want liquidity.

Re:Its not just India.

[pho3nixtar]

His point is that the comfortable lives we lead as Americans, including our ability to be constantly in touch with friends and family, is one that we live by virtue of us being Americans, not by virtue of our hard work, etc. What globalization means is the breaking down of that "caste". You don't get to live comfortably just because you're an American. In a way, this sounds egalatarian, but at the same time, its really not what Americans want. We don't want fairness, we don't want equality of opportunity, we want to live more comfortably just through the sheer virtue of being American.

That's the biggest crock of shit I've read in a long time. Regardless of which country you live in, being in touch with your family is part of what is considered a basic necessity of life. People in ALL countries want and strive for that necessity, not because it's one of the byproducts of the country they live in, but because of the human need for RELATIONSHIP, something all of these ignorant companies who are drooling over outsourcing seem to have misplaced.

No, globalization is the result of greedy bastard corporate pricks who don't have to worry about moving to fucking Bombay in order to keep their jobs. It has nothing to do with making sure the "greedy Americans" (as if greed was inherent to America...) have to "work for their comforts".

And no, you do not speak for me here: "We don't want fairness, we don't want equality of opportunity, we want to live more comfortably just through the sheer virtue of being American." SPEAK FOR YOURSELF.

Re:Its not just India.

[be-fan]

That's the biggest crock of shit I've read in a long time. Regardless of which country you live in, being in touch with your family is part of what is considered a basic necessity of life.

Yes, and those in the developing world give up that necessity every day. Americans can afford to visit family an airplane ride away on a regular basis. Much of the world can't. Americans almost never face the prospect of having to sever ties with their extended family, just to make a better life for their children. However, that is a sacrifice that millions of immigrants make every year. Americans live in a world in which they have cousins and grandparents and nieces and nephews. Almost every immigrant family lives in a world where there is only the parents and the children, and nobody else.

An American who was born here and whose family was born here leads a blessed life. They face only a fraction of the hardships faced by those elsewhere, and get much more out of life without working nearly as hard. He lives comfortably not because he works the hardest, or because his parents worked the hardest (hard work is life in a rice paddy!) but because he was just damn lucky enough to be born in the United States. Of course, there is no reason he should feel bad about it, luck is after all just dumb luck, but he should realize the nature of his situation. That his place in the world is not the result his inherent worthiness, but just the result of luck. And as the world changes, there is no inherent reason that he should maintain his place in it, no entitlement he can claim to the maintainance of his lifestyle.

No, globalization is the result of greedy bastard corporate pricks who don't have to worry about moving to fucking Bombay in order to keep their jobs.

Globalization is a natural economic force, like supply-and-demand. The "greedy bastard corporate prick", is no more in control of it than a farmer is in control of how he prices his vegetables. He has an illusion of control, in that he's making a decision, but in practice, globalization is the only decision. He can choose a different path, just as a farmer can choose to price his goods at higher than market price, but the market will then just make him irrelevent, favoring those who chose the path the market demands. Even if the United States as a country choses to oppose globalization, the market will make us irrelevent, favoring Europe or Japan instead.

The confluence of the two things leads to a simple, and inevitable, result. As barriers to communication and trade break down around the world markets, both for goods and labor, will become internationalized. As a result, the privleged life Americans enjoy can only be maintained through performance. You want to live a better life than the guy slaving away in a rice paddy? You can no longer do that just by virtue of being American. You have to leverage your skill, intelligence, capital, and hard work to make that be the case.

Re:Its not just India.

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny that, I think most of the movement would be from the rich countries to the poor ones, where the richer immigrants would live "like kings". Especially if you're stuck chasing your job around the world.

Re:Its not just India.

[pipingguy]

Americans can afford to visit family an airplane ride away on a regular basis.

For certain valuations of "Americans". Those that cannot obviously deserve their poverty and belong to the loser class that the rest of us can look down on.

This is yet another instance of generalizations, but otherwise an interesting post.

Re:Its not just India.

[LordLucless]

Yes, and those in the developing world give up that necessity every day. Americans can afford to visit family an airplane ride away on a regular basis.

Most people in the developing world don't have families that are an airplane ride away. It's only in countries like America that families can afford to spread out over five hundred kilometres. However, that is a sacrifice that millions of immigrants make every year.

Most immigrants who come over to America are working for the purpose of bringing their family over to join them, so they can settle down and live a secure life in America. Read what the OP is saying, if you can actually distill any facts from his overblown purple prose. He's saying that living in one place is a luxury, that people should be willing to relocate at a moment's notice anywhere in the world to follow their work, and anyone who doesn't is rich and lazy. Basically he's going on an anti-materialism rant (your home owns you) under the pretext of globalisation. Wait till he grows up a little and actually has some of the material he now comdemns and you'll hear a different song.

Re:Its not just India.

[be-fan]

The vast majority of Americans can swing the cost of round-trip tickets between most points in the US to visit their family for Christmas, if this is something they care about. It might not work for a guy working at McDonalds with a family and two kids (if he makes $20k a year, that puts him in the bottom 20% of Americans), but its certainly true for a 50-percentile family making 45k a year.

Re:Its not just India.

[be-fan]

Most people in the developing world don't have families that are an airplane ride away.

You do realize that India is a good half the size of the US, don't you? A kid who comes from southern India to attend a good school in Dehli or Calcutta may easily live a thousand miles away from his family. India isn't like the United States, where there is relative prosperity all around. What prosperity exists is concentrated in a few population centers,

Most immigrants who come over to America are working for the purpose of bringing their family over to join them, so they can settle down and live a secure life in America.

The immigration system in the United States is not one that is set up for keeping extended families together (nor should it be, necessarily). Getting in by yourself, say to attend university and join the workforce, is relatively easy. Getting in with your wife and kids is more difficult, but doable. Getting in with your extended family is pretty much impossible. The only circumstances under which that generally happens is if multiple related families immigrate independently (ie: a guy and his brother both have jobs lined up, and and both bring their wives and kids).

Most immigrant families in the United States, at least legal immigrant families, are cut-off from their extended families. Their parents, grandparents, cousins, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, etc, remain in their country of origin. Due to the high cost of travelling back and forth, as well as the difficulty of getting Visas for extended family members, this isolation is a fairly complete one.

Re:Its not just India.

[pho3nixtar]

Yes, and those in the developing world give up that necessity every day. Americans can afford to visit family an airplane ride away on a regular basis. Much of the world can't.

Again, you're not speaking for me. And you're not speaking for just about every person I know.

To save on space, I agree with your point that America is very priviledged, but it's a wasted point. Who here doesn't realize and appreciate that? Well, speaking only for myself, I do. It seems to me that all you're advocating is, in my mind at least, nothing more than work-force socialism on a globalized scale. If the "rest of the world" wants to invest in that, so be it. America has a history of bucking trends, so I don't see why she wouldn't have a problem bucking that one as well.

My take on outsourcing, plain and simple, is that I'm tired of seeing companies trying to UNNECESSARILY save money by taking jobs away from QUALIFIED Americans and handing them over to "qualified" foreigners just because they can work for a fraction of the cost that an American can work for. I don't care how you spin it, it's not right to penalize Americans simply because they were born in America.

Re:Its not just India.

[pho3nixtar]

It might not work? Buddy, just how long have you been out of the working class?

Re:Its not just India.

[Anonymous Coward]

We absolutely need to be able to cross boundaries freely and work together. It is, economically speaking, the most sanguine decision we can make. However, politics and national ideals intervene.

Yes, economically speaking. But there are things more important than economics. Such as having your culture and country destroyed by waves upon waves of foreign invaders who bring their third-world scum ways with them.

The native-born of the Western countries are getting more and more pissed at our elites permiting the destruction of our countries in order to put more money in their pockets. If you're in the West when the damn finally breaks and the killing starts, prepare to be strung up along side our traitorous leaders.

It might take 10 years. It might take 50 years. It might be next week. But it will happen.

As a Malaysian, you have a right to be in Malaysia. You have no right to be any where else. Go home, or be ready to die if you're still in the West when we've finally, finally had enough. This isn't a threat, it's a warning. Please, leave, before it's too late.

Re:Its not just India.

[be-fan]

Learn to read dude. In idiomatic English, when one says "it might not work for X, but it'll work for Y", it means the same thing as "it won't work for X, but at least it will work for Y". It doesn't mean "it may or may not work for X...".

Re:Its not just India.

[be-fan]

To save on space, I agree with your point that America is very priviledged, but it's a wasted point.

The point isn't just that Americans are privledged, but that this privelege isn't really due to some inherent factors, but rather the luck of living in the particular period of time in which we do. There is nothing about us that entitles us to this privelge, and if we lose it, complaining about it is kinda hollow.

It seems to me that all you're advocating is, in my mind at least, nothing more than work-force socialism on a globalized scale.

I'm not "advocating" anything. Advocating globalization is like advocating gravity. There is no point, its going to happen whether we like it or not, and the only thing we can do is deal with it. Moreover, how is globalization like socialism? Socialism would be the government giving jobs to Indians because they are worse off than we are. That's not what is happening. What is happening is that work is going offshore because the barriers for doing so have become incredibly low, given our modern communications technologies. Outsourcing is indeed the exact opposite of socialism. It's the application of free market principles to the labor market. It's what happens when consumers of labor (businesses), look at what sources of labor have the highest cost-benefit ratio, and purchasing those sources of labor. It's the exact same thing I do when I go to NewEgg to buy a hard drive, instead of paying a huge markup to shop at CompUSA.

My take on outsourcing, plain and simple, is that I'm tired of seeing companies trying to UNNECESSARILY save money by taking jobs away from QUALIFIED Americans and handing them over to "qualified" foreigners just because they can work for a fraction of the cost that an American can work for. I don't care how you spin it, it's not right to penalize Americans simply because they were born in America.

It has nothing to do with penalizing anybody for anything. Indeed, it has to do with not giving Americans special consideration, just because they happen to be born in America. It's a matter of needing a 250GB hard drive (to continue my metaphor), and going to the place that can sell it to me the cheapest.

There is a point to be made, in that the costs of outsourcing is higher than many bean-counters realize. In particular, there is a hidden cost in what happens when the outsourcing contract expires and that foreign employee leaves, taking his skills and knowledge with him. That's not a problem with outsourcing per se, but rather a flaw in the cost-benefit analysis conducted by the managers. The same flaw is often seen with regards to, for example, the hiring of contractors, for example. As more experience is gained in outsourcing, you'll see the cost/benefit start to take these other factors into consideration.

Re:Its not just India.

[some damn guy]

Don't let the housing boom of the last 6-7 years fool you. This is the largest housing bubble in U.S. history (in fact it's not even close). Prices for real estate can go nowhere in real terms for many decades. Housing prices reached a peak in real terms around 1880 that wasn't surpassed until after the second world war. Just remember, if housing prices go up too much, nobody can afford to buy one, and prices will and have gone down and stayed there. You can't have a situation in which housing price gains exceed real wage growth by many percentage points forever.

Truth be told, people aleady can't afford homes, but they get into them with exotic loans and dangerous lending standards. Why not, housing values only go up, right? The price appreciation will bail you out and then you refinance, right? Can't afford a $50,000 down payment right out of school? No problem, we'll just lend it to you, intrest only, you can just refinance once you've build some equity. It's a classic bubble. Can't happen to real estate? Ask Japan.

Read the new edition of Irrational Exuberance by Robert Shiller. If you read it in early 2000 you would have saved a ton of money in the stock market. The new graph of home price increases is no less sickening. It is so dramatic and so unprecidented, any notion of a fundamental basis for it seems absolutely assine. Deja Vu all over again.

Being smart and haivng gone into something useful (like computer science), I make almost twice what many recent college grads make, but I couldn't afford homes I wouldn't have even looked at ten years ago. A $200,000 house would have gone for 80 then.

Buying a house now is, in a word, stupid. But then again, I might not just be able to wait out a big crash. The worse case scenario is housing prices that drop slowly or trail inflation for decades and decades. People say its a great buyers market, well, it just all depends doesn't it? A home is a wonderful thing, but it isn't automatically a great investment. People keep repeating that shit and it's why we're in this mess in the first place. There's no free lunch and things that can't go on forever, _don't_.

Re:Its not just India.

[JimBobJoe]

the freedom of movement in labour still has some way to catch up

Catch up? Freedom of movement of labor was a given until the 20th century. The right to travel without permission or documentation pretty much ended with World War I. I have been told (but have not found evidence for) that one of the goals of the League of Nations was to restore the right to travel across borders and to elminate the temporary Passport document. (Which really didn't become universal until the 1950's. Ellis Island was so important partially because many people showed up there with not a single piece of paper.)

This is something that will come to haunt the 1st world countries. We have relied upon skilled immigrant talent for years, but now other countries, while not as comfortable as the US or the EU are good enough for these people to live in without pining for the 1st world.

Re:Its not just India.

[thej1nx]

"higher refined caste" ?*winces*

Are you some kind of nutcase?

I presume you wanted to state that most of the poor Indians(84% of the populace) cannot afford to send their kids to school, or stay in touch with parents every day(when they have to go a thousand kilometers away and can barely afford one visit home every couple of years. And don't even own a phone). These are things that only the americans and first world residents take for "granted" and can afford to "demand".

But using terms like "higher refined caste" makes you look stupid and rheteric, despite having a valid point. Which part of India are you from? From my experience, currently, only *one* portion of India, which is still obsessed with outdated stuff like caste etc, despite being educated(as you apparently are). The rest of educated Indians are too busy trying to earn a living, to be bothered with the caste nonsense. I am pretty sure, you belong to the same region in all probability. The kind of rheoterics and the weird language form("we speak better english than even the british!") points to it.

Re:Its not just India.

[torpor]

Are you some kind of nutcase?

If I were some kind of nutcase, would it be in a caste higher or lower than your own?

The Western tendency to label as "insane" anything which doesn't jive with their TV-fed white-bread culture is a caste system, duh ..

Re:Its not just India.

[cyber-vandal]

I work for the UK immigration service and the amount of people trying to get in is staggering. I doubt the immigration service in say, Nigeria, is quite so stretched.

Re:Its not just India.

[foniksonik]

You're just plain wrong. Yes history shows patterns of boom, bust, plateau but that was then when there were still unexplored continents and unexploited regions of livable land... now you've got people developing deserts because it's what is available.

I agree about the stupidity of it. If home prices were less then wages could be less and the US wouldn't have to export so many jobs, etc. But the reality is that there simply isn't more land begin created any time soon. There may be a few nice areas that have been overlooked because they are underdeveloped from an industry and jobs opportunity POV.. like the Southeast US for instance - but even there, larger homes in desirable areas are selling for well over a million these days.

The biggest problem with not buying is that you still have to live somewhere. Unless you have a family home to crash in or your company provides housing (like in the 50s), you are throwing away 20-30 percent of your income every year.

So with less land, all that means is that the quality of home available will decline while the prices stay affordable. Look at Japan as an example. Population growth means we all have to deal with the problems they have now sooner or later.

Yes it feels stupid to buy a home now at the exorbitant prices.. but wait 5 years and it won't feel any better, except that you will have more income to work with and hopefully the prices won't have compensated by rising to match you.

OTOH if you buy now and struggle for a year or two... you'll have saved all those rent checks in the form of equity and will have a very nice bonus from natural appreciation (even if it isn't 30% rise every year... 10-18% is more likely). Then you can go buy something even better locally or you can go abroad with your fat wallet and buy a truly lavish spread somewhere no one wants to live 'right now'. Finally if you want to start a real estate portfolio you can use that equity to buy another property (make it commercial.. higher rent and less maintenance required).

Re:Its not just India.

[thej1nx]

Yo dumbass!

I am an Indian myself, you idiot. So I don't see how I can be accused of "western tendency to label insane anything".

Which is why I know firsthand, that most educated Indians, save for one region(but then again US has texas as its dim-witted cousin), do NOT bother with stupid caste stuff, save perhaps when marrying(supposed reasoning is that different castes have different habits etc. and hence adjustment may be difficult). your boss in a company, may be of lower caste. What will you do? Refuse to work under him? Refuse to accept documents signed by him, since according to you anything touched by him, cannot be handled by you?

You are insane. Most of us Indians, do NOT bother with that sort of nonsense anymore. It is not possible anymore.

But ofcourse, to idiots from your region(and I can tell where you belong to, thanks to your "bestest english in the worlds" way of talking and your obsession with caste nonsense), caste is still an obsession.

Caste btw, was never determined by birth but by your actions. It merely describes your profession. Go and actually read some of the puranas and vedas.

Westerners have no "concept" of caste. They have a hard time even grasping what it is. So how on earth are you deciding if they are "higher" or "lower" caste , you moron?

Disgusting idiot. India would be better off without filthy jerks like you, who are obsessed with their twisted concepts of "caste".

Re:Its not just India.

[thej1nx]

I belong to the same country as him, and I still agree with you.

The GP actually is an imbecile, not merely sounding like one.

Re:Its not just India.

[pho3nixtar]

The point isn't just that Americans are privledged, but that this privelege isn't really due to some inherent factors, but rather the luck of living in the particular period of time in which we do. There is nothing about us that entitles us to this privelge, and if we lose it, complaining about it is kinda hollow.

I disagree. Everything we have, everything we are, as human beings is due to inherent factors. Luck has nothing to do with it. We inherit a free country from others who are willing to lay their lives down for it every day. We inherit this internet because of other people's work. We inherit Linux because Linus Torvald decided that he thought it could do it better, and DID. We inherit this conversation because of the original post about Reverse off-shoring. And I inherit this feeling of annoyance because you continue to group everyone up and stick them in boxes you've built: "There is nothing about us that entitles us to this privilege" Once again, speak for yourself.

Moreover, how is globalization like socialism?

I didn't say that it was socialism. I said what you seem to be advocating is socialism. I wasn't necessarily referring to off-shoring as socialism. I was more or less referring to the logic in your arguments. "What globalization means is the breaking down of that "caste". You don't get to live comfortably just because you're an American." Oddly enough, you said in this last post that "Outsourcing is indeed the exact opposite of socialism. It's the application of free market principles to the labor market. It's what happens when consumers of labor (businesses), look at what sources of labor have the highest cost-benefit ratio, and purchasing those sources of labor. It's the exact same thing I do when I go to NewEgg to buy a hard drive, instead of paying a huge markup to shop at CompUSA."

So, which is it? Is out-sourcing the "application of free market principles" or is it the breaking down of the 'caste'", which I interpret to be nothing more than 'leveling the playing feild'?

It has nothing to do with penalizing anybody for anything.

I disagree. It's penalizing the people here who already hold the jobs for people who will take the jobs at a lower price... to save a buck or two. And I'll just go ahead and let you know now that you probably won't be able to convince me otherwise.

There is a point to be made, in that the costs of outsourcing is higher than many bean-counters realize. In particular, there is a hidden cost in what happens when the outsourcing contract expires and that foreign employee leaves, taking his skills and knowledge with him.

I hadn't thought of that one. And you've also got to include terrorist activity, which is much more prevelant in other parts of the world. Obviously we're not immune from it, but it is not a regular occurance here the way that it is in other parts of the world.

Re:Its not just India.

[torpor]

Disgusting idiot. India would be better off without filthy jerks like you, who are obsessed with their twisted concepts of "caste".



I rest my case. Put me in your little box.

Re:Its not just India.

[thej1nx]

You never had a case to begin with.

You are stupid enough to assume that only "westerners" frequent slashdot. That you are the only Indian "eleet" enough to be posting here. You were so quick to label me of "western tendencies", that it never occured to you that I am an Indian too.

Tum ek number ke gadhe ho!
(I am not sure you will be able to translate that or not, cosidering that you are *quite* possibly one of those "caste is all" chaps who pride themselves on their "perfect english" and don't even know the national language.)

Re:Its not just India.

[torpor]

#1: I am not Indian. Where do you get off on assuming that?
#2: You are labelling me with all kinds of lovely labels in defense of your wonderful system of personal psycho-analysis, and so, in your rush to attack me further, here is a word you might want to put on a t-shirt of appropriate size, and wear proudly around your little universe..

Re:Its not just India.

[thej1nx]

After yammering tons of nonsense about "caste", now you are not an Indian?

In that case, you are an even bigger jerk and idiot since,

A) You have been jabbering like a monkey, about a concept you have no first-hand comprehension of, and

B) You have been trying to misrepresent a community, that you had no *right* to represent in the first place. Which other community/country, pray thee, has "caste" as part of its social structure?

As for labels, if the shoe fits, wear it.

Re:Its not just India.

[torpor]

Which other community/country, pray thee, has "caste" as part of its social structure?

Its not just for lunch, in India, dude. Words can be used everywhere. You should try that.

Re:Its not just India.

[thej1nx]

Yes ofcourse. We can definitely use baptism or holy trinity in conext of Islam. They are just words and can be used anywhere, right?

Oh wait... it doesn't seems to make much sense that way. But then again, none of your statements make sense at all. Learn to think before typing away rheoterics.

Re:Its not just India.

[some damn guy]

10-18% is more likely?

Sounds like a bubble to me! God help us.

Will not last

[eneville]

There might be positions available at the moment, but it cannot last. There is such a baby boom in India that they will shortly see the problem in Britian currently where the OAP's outnumber the youth, thus pentions is in a crisis. Once the baby boom generation in India reach similar age there will be a problem. It's not going to happen for a while.

Re:Will not last

[smoker2]

There is such a baby boom in India that they will shortly see the problem in Britian currently where the OAP's outnumber the youth ...... It's not going to happen for a while.

-5 Incomprehensible

So your first statement is true for values of shortly ~40 years.

BTW OAPs do not currently outnumber the youth either.

Re:Will not last

[Anonymous Coward]

As a commentary to graphs:

In 2003 we have 25% of the population in the 0-19 range (generally not in full-time work) and 15% 65 and above - total about 40% not likely to be in work. In 2036 (in 30 years) we have a projected 25% above 65, and 20% in the 0-19 range - total about 45%, but the pension age is also set to rise to at least 67 by this time, so the likely proportion of those in the working age population might only fall by 2 or 3% of the total population, or to about 95% of current levels. A typical value for the proportion of the working age population is 60% (70% in some countries, lower in others - not sure what the exact figure is for the UK, but it is fairly middling as I remember) which takes into account unemployment, those taking career breaks, etc., etc. So the proportion actually working now is likely to be about 36% of the total population, which if the same participation rate would fall to about 34% of the total population. If UK worker participation increased to the top levels (e.g. USA, Denmark) then you'd actually see a RISE in the number working, as a total of the population, to about 39%. In other words the dependency ratio could potentially fall slightly.

Finally

[Kawahee]

Now I can finally talk to somebody in New Delhi who has seen a computer before!

Re:Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

No kidding. I've talked to some of those Indian techs. Hell, some of them don't have electricity at home.

Reverse Off-Shoring:

[smittyoneeach]

Should that really be "On-Shoring", or simply "Shoring"?

We really need more early ante-prior-pre-planning for these linguistic decisions.

It's part of the cycle

[smilindog2000]

Anybody here old enough to remember Japan's rise to a respectable engineering powerhouse? Any of you guys remeber when "Made in Japan" meant it would break in 10 minutes of use?

There's a natural cycle seem to countries go through when they finally get their act together in engineering:

- Growth from low-cost outsourcing
- Growth due to home-grown businesses exporting good IP
- Imposition of copyright and patent protection
- Growth due home-grown businesses selling IP locally, and the death of outsourcing

I think in 1980's, an Indian programmer cost about $2K/year. Now that the outsourcing companies have run out of good local talent in places like Bangalore, salaries are rising to the point that it makes less sense to outsource engineering and programming to India. Countries like Romania look better.

To continue growth, innovators in India will need to create their own businesses to compete with Silicon Valley startups. To some extent, they seem to be started at this. For example, the customer-relationship software I'm using at the moment, VtigerCRM, is a shameless copy of opensource software from SugarCRM, and it's shamelessly copying Salesforce.com functionality. Indian investors are funding the Vtiger opensource alternative, betting they can beat SugarCRM and Salesforce.com at their own game. Maybe they're right.

However, the exported software market is only so big. As programmers in India tire of making money from foreign countries where software is actually worth something, they'll force their government to crack down on IP theft. This will create a local market for programmers, greatly fueling high-tech business growth. It also will mostly kill their outsourcing business, since salaries will then be able to rise above the threshold where outsourcing to India makes sense.

I hope for a similar cycle to be followed in China. When China and India are done with the outsourcing business, we can move to other countries that need to come forward into the new millenium. Outsourcing our jobs is massively painful, but at least we're helping make the world a better place.

Re:It's part of the cycle

[rah1420]

Very insightful. (Hint to mods - I burned all my points yesterday.) I agree China's next, and another poster mentioned Romania and I'll add the other countries from the breakup of the USSR (and what about Russia itself?)

Then there will be an equilibrium of sorts, but there's one continent left to consider next: Africa. Now THAT's got to be an offshorer's wet dream, although the political situation and the technical infrastructure isn't in any shape to support it. I give it about 20 or 30 years before you start to see the new Bangalore on the Ivory Coast.

Re:It's part of the cycle

[eraserewind]

The thing is though that those from the "poor" countries are actually rich in comparison to colleagues form the "rich" countries. My co-workers (colleagues at the same job grade) whenever they go home to India will be able to afford a nice house and some servants. I cannot go home because I cannot afford a house, nice or otherwise. Even in the USA things are much cheaper. I was looking at the property prices in various US cities where I could concievably get a job, and the prices are astoundingly low.

Re:It's part of the cycle

[thrashaholic]

For example, the customer-relationship software I'm using at the moment, VtigerCRM, is a shameless copy of opensource software from SugarCRM, and it's shamelessly copying Salesforce.com functionality. Indian investors are funding the Vtiger opensource alternative, betting they can beat SugarCRM and Salesforce.com at their own game. Maybe they're right.

You're using Vtiger? You poor fuck. If that bloated piece of shit is a mission critical system for you, then..well..good luck.

  As a poor PHP dev who was suckered into working on the newer Vtiger for about 6months, I can say that Vtiger is nothing more than bullshit monkey code written by VBers who learned PHP and decided to release some OSS. It's a bad lesson in what NOT to do with OO design; indeed, it's everything that's wrong with large open source PHP projects.

The db architecture (or, that hodge-podge immitation of one) alone should have you running and screaming for the hills.

Sorry. Vtiger is shit. So is SugarCRM. Run while you still can.

Maybe they're right

Not with that code base.

Re:It's part of the cycle

[smilindog2000]

No kidding... houses around here near Raleigh, NC are amazingly cheap. If you can nail down a steady job, you can probably afford a house. That's one reason I started my company here. In silicon valley, even at outragous salaries, my employees could never afford raise families (unless we went IPO).

Re:It's part of the cycle

[smilindog2000]

Sounds like you know a lot more about Vtiger than me. I've noticed information is not as easily cross-accessed as I would like. Ancient versions of Act had that problem, too. For some reason, just about anybody who can write code seems to think they can design a database.

Is there a better free alternative?

Re:It's part of the cycle

[Anonymous Coward]

> I give it about 20 or 30 years before you start to see the new Bangalore on the Ivory Coast.

Outsourcing and the race to the bottom that "free market" pushes on the world may not last 20 or 30 years.

The current trend is not sustainable. In developed countries, poors are getting poorer, and rich wealthier. You think it can last, I think it will end up in a police state, with milicia protecting rich from the voters.

Re:It's part of the cycle

[Anonymous Coward]

As a poor PHP dev who was suckered into working on the newer Vtiger for about 6months, I can say that Vtiger is nothing more than bullshit monkey code written by VBers who learned PHP and decided to release some OSS. It's a bad lesson in what NOT to do with OO design; indeed, it's everything that's wrong with large open source PHP projects.

A PHPer giving grief to VBers. You just gotta laugh. Grow up and learn to program using a real language.

Re:It's part of the cycle

[MMaestro]

The current trend is not sustainable. In developed countries, poors are getting poorer, and rich wealthier. You think it can last, I think it will end up in a police state, with milicia protecting rich from the voters.

Except for that fact that you have economists raising hell over the fact that the U.S. imports more than it exports (read: the "poor" are getting richer and the "rich" are getting poorer). Sure if you believe the outdated U.S. system of "standard of living", things are getting worse, but in the grand scheme of things, things are getting better. (Stop buying bottled water, tap water is fine; eat less fast food, cook more often; don't buy a brand new TV just to watch the Super Bowl, watch it at a friend's house or a local bar.)

As for a police state, lay off the Orwellian theories. Who would man the militia? The military. Where do the military get their troops? The poor masses. Are the poor masses going to risk their lives to protect the same elites that are keeping them poor? Hell no! Cue Socialist revolution as Karx Marx predicted (the poor masses overwhelming the rich minority in a quick, but short period of bloodshed.)

Re:It's part of the cycle

[pipingguy]

salaries are rising to the point that it makes less sense to outsource engineering

Are we talking "engineering" in the slashdot vernacular or real engineering? Please clarify.

Re:It's part of the cycle

[asuffield]

Anybody here old enough to remember Japan's rise to a respectable engineering powerhouse? Any of you guys remeber when "Made in Japan" meant it would break in 10 minutes of use?

It's still kinda-sorta true, after a fashion. Technology products made for sale in Japan are typically of lower quality than ones made for sale in the west. They're also typically released months earlier. The Japanese release is like a 'beta' of the product. This happens because the Japanese are more willing to splurge on dubious tech toys. What's changed is that they've stopped trying to sell those same products in the western countries; instead, they redesign them first based on lessons learned in the Japanese market.

(Exceptions abound, of course, but the broad trend in the market runs in that direction)

How long?

[NexFlamma]

How long will it be until you hear Indian comedians complaining about calling tech support only to have some stupid American speaking gibberish to them over the phone?

Re:How long?

[foniksonik]

*hindi accented english*

HA! then the tech support girl said something like "WOT YAH NEED TA DUE EEIS, TAKE THAT THERE MOUHUS AN CLIKKK EEIT RIAHT ON THAT THEYRE IKAHN". I had no idea what she was saying, her accent was so heavy... so I asked to speak to a manager and an hour later I finally go a hold of Rajiv in Bangalore and everything was straightened out.

Re:How long?

[Anonymous Coward]

didn't you see looking for comedy in the muslim world? there are no comedians in india...

Re:How long?

[saleenS281]

Given that it's a national language I would guess never.

Re:How long?

[NexFlamma]

Eveything becomes less funny when you bring reality into it! Jerk!

Benefits?

[Expertus]

John and his other American colleagues, had not even heard of the company's name before joining Infosys.

It doesn't exactly sound like we are losing our best and brightest to extra-national corporations. If these guys can't be motivated to do a little research before signing on, do we want to keep them?

Though I must admit, I am curious about what kind of innovations we will be seeing in the next few years. It sounds like some Indian companies are ready to become leaders in the field, and a fast growth environment like that can only benefit from this cross-cultural communication.

Re:Benefits?

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

"I have done internships before with some of the top American countries. The environment here is at the same level if not better than the companies I've worked for"

hehe

Consumers will complain about bottom lines soon

[Anonymous Coward]

"... its peoples lives the managers are playing with and sometimes the bottom line isn't that important."

Tell that to the consumers concerned about their "bottom line".

Allow me to say it: Whup-die-fucking-do !

[Anonymous Coward]

Allow me to say it: Whup-die-fucking-do ! 300 !! The grapes of wrath are all behind us now !!!

(I'm being sacarstic in case you didn't notice)

Reverse Off-Shoring?

[Anonymous Coward]

reverse off-shoring is known as illegal immigration around these parts, bubba!

"reverse" Ofshoring

[SeanOBrian]

If your are going to introduce a term like this, one would do well to explain more thoroughly, for the less "hip" of us, why it is "reverse."

Its good...

[bayankaran]

Reverse offshoring (or whatever its called) is good.

Traditionally the West gives emphasis on individualism and the East favours interdependence. A western tourist to India will see a lot of colour and crowd - but they may not get the idea behind India - a nation of a billion people with 15 official languages more than 500 languages and 2000 dialects. But someone who works in India for a short while (even on a sterilised IT campus) will get a better perception of the country. They can also dispel the lingering half truths that persist amongst westerners.

Now Indians know occupying a country of its size and exploiting is not a viable idea for any superpower (it can still happen with western transnational corporations)- so the general mistrust towards the West is a bit lesser.

A few months back in New Bombay I saw a few western technology workers. They women looked happier (though a bit perplexed) compared to their counterparts in Western cities - Karma+Nirvana+Brahma+tropical climate+chaos+anarchy in action.

With dirtroad main streets and cow dung everywhere

[Anonymous Coward]

With dirt-road main streets, and cow crap everywhere, I don't see this becoming a reality, let alone even a priority, any time soon. Where else do so many worship -- RATS ? Is there such a thing as FOURTH-WORLD ?? There is in India.

Slashdotters will complain about others soon

[Anonymous Coward]

"The trouble with being beholden to shareholders is that capital really is mobile and shareholders are normally a greedy bunch."

Is this a varient on the slashdot "everyone's an idiot...except for me"? If you have a mutual fund, 401K, or IRA (amoung other financial instruments) then you're a "shareholder" (usually in several companies).

You make the assumption that greedy is a bad thing

[leeum]

When I use the term "greedy", I imply "looking for the best return for their money". Note in my original post I mentioned that I hold equity positions in several companies and ROE is one of the main drivers for making an investment decision. Ethics plays a part in the decision process - I don't invest in arms manufacturers as a matter of principle for example, but ultimately I would be doing myself a disservice if I were to invest in a company that offered poorer returns for higher risk than in a company that offered higher returns for lower risk.

In Soviet Russia. . .

[ishpeck]

. . . India outsources you.

Wow, this article is about me!

[PeteyG]

This is a surprise - I am actually in the program discussed in the article. I just graduated from the University of Washington in Seattle, and took this job. I'm typing this from the company's campus in Mysore, India. It's a fun experience, I'm seeing the sights, eating a lot of curry, getting my technical skills rounded out a bit, and then I will be headed back to the States in while to work for them.

If anyone has any questions about the article, wtf I'm doing in India, what it's like, etc... post here and I will do my best to answer them!

Re:Wow, this article is about me!

[BVD]

Did they fly you first class?

Are you able to tear and eat the bread with one hand yet, or are you trying to eat your curry like a westerner?

Re:Wow, this article is about me!

[bjorng]

What are the working hours like? Long? Flexible?

Are all your teammates also from the States?

Do you interact with the locals after hours, or do they have you in a Western Ghetto?

Do you have a career path at the company, or is this basically like an internship?

Re:Wow, this article is about me!

[PeteyG]

Most places I eat are the fork+knife kind, but when it's a more down-to-India kind of place... I still have to cheat and use my left hand occaisionally.

FYI, it's traditional to eat with the right hand only, with full skin-on-food contact. The left is considered a bit unclean (you can probably figure out why), so it can be tricky to eat everything using just one hand. It was much easier to learn to use chopsticks!

Re:Wow, this article is about me!

[PeteyG]

The article seemed a bit hand-wavy as to what we were actually doing over here... but it's basically half training (most of us didn't major in computer science) in programming, databases, etc, followed by time with the Indian-side of the development team that we'll be working with back in the States. The hours really aren't bad at all for those of us with programming experience, and I think the company wants it that way; part of the reason we're out here is to go out and about and experience India. You know, take in the culture and such, so we're more effective on whatever developmeant team we end up working on.

Most of the people I work with day to day are in the US group, with the people leading the training (or whatever HR seminar) being Indian. That'll change when we start working on the actual development teams here.

After hours, we interact a lot with locals... typically Indian trainees going through the same process we are. We're all on the same campus, and there's a lot of recreational things to do (bowling, badminton, basketball... blah blah blah) together. We're actually trying to get together a US vs. India Counter Strike match right now. At the same time, we usually go out to eat, drink, and explore India in groups of US folk.

It's definitely not an internship... (for some reason I have to keep reminding my mother this). It's a real, live job. I honestly don't know what the advancement path will be like down the road, but the company is expanding pretty rapidly, so I would assume there's a path there should I want to keep going down it.

Re:Wow, this article is about me!

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

Thanks for posting and answering questions :)

I lived in an apartment complex in a suburb of St. Louis that was definitely an xpatriate Indian community. I didn't notice at first but there were some things that implied female subservience. For example, walking ont othe grocery store I noticed an Indian couple. The woman had been a bit in front but she got to the side and let her husband enter first. It was obvious enough to notice if you were looking. I have also heard bits about an Indian guy and (European) American woman in a relationship and it seemed that the guy had problems with her being her own person.

So have you noticed any of these cultural things?

That said, I met a lot of cool people living there. I played basketball hehe, kicked their butts. I also played ping pong with them. They played cricket out there also but I didn't play :)

Re:Wow, this article is about me!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a surprise - I am actually in the program discussed in the article. I just graduated from the University of Washington in Seattle, and took this job. I'm typing this from the company's campus in Mysore, India.

And I'm sure that you cleared it with your employer before making public statements regarding them, right? In case they didn't cover this at university, making unauthorized public statements about your employer is something that you do not do in the real world, especially not when you broadcast your identity.

Re:Wow, this article is about me!

[PeteyG]

I really haven't noticed anything much at all like that so far in India, where I am.

Have noticed the cricket though. It's kind of big here!

Re:Wow, this article is about me!

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you figured out how to clean your ass with water, or do they provide you with toilet paper?
If they do provide tp, whats the quality like, sandpaper or moisturized?

well, this is not new

[nih]

this is the same as reverse reverse reverse offshoring, minus the pointless extra words

Romania

[adbloggers]

Dont forget companies such as Romania and the Phillipines that have some large offshore business as well.

http://www.adbloggers.com/

this is hardly reverse off-shoring

[rifftide]

Companies the size of Wipro or Infosys need to hire some foreigners who are better attuned with their home markets, and for customer facing roles. They may also open sites in the West to tap into a different base of talent and/or respond more quickly to customers; also for political reasons, to stave off protectionist measures. None of this is surprising.

It'd be more interesting if the Indian firms started flipping contract work, or delegating portions of it to independent contract software houses based in the West, without publicizing it, i.e. it was not a political/PR stunt. That would be reverse off-shoring.

Re:this is hardly reverse off-shoring

[IndiIdiot]

There are many reasons for this trend..In the long-run me thinks it is good for both. One reason which is not publicised that much is the VISA problems that these companies face for Indian workers to be relocated to US/UK on an assignment. Hmm..The reason we folks work @ IT companies is, we 'dream' of going to West and earn a few quick bucks. Now those plans wud be sc**ed :-((

Given what we went through...

[CBob]

Working for a non-profit gives me a slightly odd view of this but...

We recently outsourced our help desk to a "Red Bank, NJ" company that switched to India for "off hours" support.

The 1st month was quality work, didn't matter who or where the phone was answered.

That went to hell quickly with equal speed for BOTH support sites. Call got redircted to us at the bottom here with:
"You need to reboot that server!", from NJ w/no ticket # or even a contact.
"Person have problem with (application name), not work", with no correct name, contact # or any real info of use. Call might be routed to techs on site for a password reset.(both locations)
Hang-ups and dead air seemed to be random or tied into "We had network down time" w/no notifications from either support location.

Wait for it...Cliche time, sorry.

Seems ya get what ya pay for.

(if this was fark that get an Obvious tag)

Re:With dirtroad main streets and cow dung everywh

[mazarin5]

There's always Elbonia.

cost of living

[beaverfever]

"The cost of living in India would be lower than the home country + comparable wages = ability to save."

Westerners who have lived in developing countries know this is not entirely true.

If you're an "average" local living in average conditions, your cost of living will be lower than an "average" person in North America, but if you want to live at western standards (house in a nice neighbourhood, car, big TV, stereo, washer dryer etc.) then expect to pay the same or more for the products/services you want. In a developing country, public transport may not even be an option; a car could be an absolute necessity, and therefore an unavoidable expense. To live at western standards you probably won't see many savings in your expenses over actually being in the west.

On the other side of the coin, you could probably afford such luxuries as a live-in housekeeper.

Depending on where you live, there may be savings from low or non-existent income taxes. You could come out a bit ahead from this.

However, in some countries (those in the Gulf region, for example), foreigners are not allowed to buy property. Rent for a nice villa or apartment is as high or higher than what you would pay in Europe/N-Am. If you're paying a mortgage, at least your expenses are adding to your equity, but when you pay rent, that money is gone. This rent is like a defacto tax on foreigners because it is unavoidable, but instead of the money going to the government, it goes directly to the local who owns the property you live in.

If you have children, expect to pay for them to go to school.

Healthcare, especially healthcare which is to western standards, is another expense to keep in mind.

Taking part in leisure activities means more expenses; public recreation facilities which are normal in the west aren't normal in developing countries. Private clubs provide sports facilities, clean beaches etc. etc.

By living in a developing country, a western professional will probably enjoy a nice lifestyle, but to do so means that savings likely won't be much greater than they would be in the west. Obviously, one can do without many of these expenses, live more like the average locals do and save money, but one can also save money in the west by living a much simpler lifestyle. Many people who work overseas do so for the experience.

Re:cost of living

[soft_guy]

On the other side of the coin, you could probably afford such luxuries as a live-in housekeeper.

You misspelled prostitute.

Re:cost of living

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only can you not avoid buying a car -- cars in Third-World countries tend to be way more expensive than they are in the U.S., because of high import duties and taxes.

Also, even if you're saving a higher *percentage* of your salary, the overall *dollar amount* is probably nowhere near as high. If you ever want to come back to the U.S., you're going to be back to spending the same *dollars* the rest of us are spending.

Re:With dirtroad main streets and cow dung everywh

[smilindog2000]

Many countries seem to allow much of their population to live in conditions we don't usually tolerate in the US: with no government supported clean water, sewage, roads, electricity, and telephone (to name just a few). People continue to live much as they have for thousands of years, in a very primitive lifestyle. I think this segment of their economies is fundamentally different than India's high-tech sector.

I live in North Carolina, where for a couple hundred years now we've taken pride in making quality furniture. Most of our furniture and textile jobs are being lost to super-low-cost labor in China. I've heard that factories in China list labor costs in the same section of their budget that we list electricity. It's almost free.

I'm not sure how I feel about this, other than feeling bad about all the good people here who lost jobs. I've talked to people from primitive villages, and I was told that people there seem happy. It's entirely possible that countries like China will continue to use villagers to manufacture the world's goods with nearly free labor indefinitely. Somehow, it seems a lot like slavery, but I don't hear the villagers complaining. Even as these villages become cheap labor sources for factories, I doubt they'll get good roads, healthcare, electricity, water, or any other significant benefit.

Is it exploitation, or just poor people getting work they want?

One thing I'm sure of... I don't want poor uneducated villagers here in the US. That's why I'm for having a high minimum wage, and feel we should legalize illegal immigrants. There's no room for second-class-citizens here.

we develop code for India in Wisconsin

[woodsrunner]

I work for a company in Wisconsin and we have recently had foreign government ministers visiting to talk to us about writing software for them. We produce software to be used in many countries that are considered places where programming jobs go. I guess it just goes to show markets are still cyclical.

Re:we develop code for India in Wisconsin

[Tablizer]

I work for a company in Wisconsin and we have recently had foreign government ministers visiting to talk to us about writing software for them. We produce software to be used in many countries that are considered places where programming jobs go. I guess it just goes to show markets are still cyclical.

I've read somewhere that government agencies in countries that specialize in offshoring and IT visa workers are having trouble recruiting because the commercial companies pay more and offer newer technologies. They indeed may end up offshoring their stuff to the rural US.

The human element

[beaverfever]

"Globalization is a reality. If you are still thinking that your local country offers the only market for your job, you are probably watching too much TV and consuming too much sugary fat, and in my opinion not travelling often, nor far and wide, enough.

My advice to the new globalist thinker: Travel far and wide and don't bother fooling yourself into thinking you ever actually 'own' a house (it owns you). Go nomad.
"

You forget the human element. Repeated relocation comes at the cost of close friends, family, relationships. Work isn't everything to everyone.

As for jobs and markets, just because westerners are offered jobs with companies in developing countries, that doesn't necessarily mean those companies operate to western standards of output. Different cultures have differing business management styles, and they have a drastic effect on productivity. These can also be extremely frustrating environments for westerners to work in.

Wow!! Potentially 426 Americans hired!!

[Anonymous Coward]

>>126 Americans at its cutting-edge complex in Mysore, expects to employ 300 Americans by the end of 2006

Why, it's a oversea's employment explosion for the USA! Nevermind the 30,000 Americans that will lose their to Indian $0.50/hour workers during the same time.

Re:You make the assumption that greedy is a bad th

[Jerf]

You might want to say "greedy in the aggregate".

10 very nice people may invest in your company. If they can do better somewhere else, half of them may very nicely decide to invest somewhere else, which is a perfectly reasonable thing for them to do, after all. (Everybody is all about how other people should make economically-poor decisions for the "greater good", a.k.a., "my benefit", but very few people really step up to the plate and deliberately select underperforming options when they have the choice. Non-zero, but few.)

In the aggregate, these otherwise nice people look incredibly greedy to the company they had the investment in, and the company feels incredible pressure to do better, in a way far out of proportion to the exertion of the investors.

Greed isn't an entirely inaccurate description of the results, but it may not describe motives; I have a hard time calling "investing in a 5% return instead of a 2% return" 'greed'. That's more like 'sensible', not 'greedy', and the opposite 'stupid'. (All else being equal of course, I'm ignoring the risk factors.) Besides, given that the economy isn't a zero-sum game (bolded because more people need to actually realize and internalize that) and that 2% vs 5% difference may very well be real if you're investing in a capital-producing company, it's not even necessarily a good decision for society to take the 2% either. That's the magic of capitalism and the market, to harness "greed" for the greater good of society.

Cool...

[SpinyNorman]

Soon you'll be able to sit at your desk in the USA, doing your job at your current salary, even though it's been
"off shored"... .. and the boss will still be patting himself on the back for the savings he thinks he must be making.

the second and now third worlding of the US

[Anonymous Coward]

I see you half way but not the legalization of the border jumpers. We already had a full illegal immigrant amnesty back in the Reagan years, then they were supposed to sort it out, have controlled legal immigration, etc, but that just evaporated. If you legalise the illegals, that just sends a message to all their friends and family to go ahead, c'mon in, nothing will happen! How many of the planet's billions of lower skilled workers are you willing to just let in then? Where is an actual cutoff point? 3 million a year, 10, 20? If you are seeing all your blue collar jobs vanish, then what is left over for jobs is having to be fought over by the remaining locals plus ever growing numbers of illegals, how coud you possibly hope to maintain a living minimum wage here? It couldn't and can't be done. You'd have to keep dropping wages to the point where the US looked like one of those nations those folks come from, a two class society. Want some more proo? Back before this started bad all it tok was one normal blue collar wage to support a regular family, now it takes both parents working to maintain a similar standard. Any way you slice it, that is economic regression.

Nope, best bet to keep your wages more stable and closer to a middle class level is to control immigration and keep giving incentives to your domestic manufacturing and wealth creation type industries. Swapping wealth creation for this wealth rearrangement economy is totally insane, lies in the face of economic reality. and shows why places like china and india are enjoying fantastic growth, because they are doing it with *wealth creation* jobs.

    Ever since this globalism offshoring started in earnest, they have kept saying it was good for the US economy. Well, I say rubbish, they have had 25 years now to prove their point and we now have the highest debt level in both government and the private sector ever. Bankruptcies starting to approach great depression levels. We have the largest balance of trade deficits. We have a historical low in savings rates. If you have a baby today it is born into near 6 figure debt! I mean, egads! Just those facts prove it isn't working. We also at the same time developed the highest level of CEO pay to line workers salary, we have less people covered with benefits than in the 60s or 70s, housing prices are now a higher percentage of gross income on average, etc. Many local governments are now having to raise property taxes so fast that people who have owned their own homes for decades and are now retired can't afford to live in their own houses! They literally can't afford to just live in their own bought and paid for homes! That is a governmental failure to its citizens, clear cut.

  The illegals coming in a such a speed just slam the local infrastructure with sudden cost increases. I've seen that the last two little southern towns where I lived that had sudden influx of illegals. it drops wages and ups housing costs at the lower end, screwing over the people born and raised here. It kills the local hospitals and schools from huge sudden cost increases. Do you honestly think an illegal immigrant with 3-4 kids going to the local school that costs around 7-8 grand apiece is "paying his fair share" in taxes when he's making around 25 grand tops? Who is covering the cost difference? How about when each of those kids is born for free, the local emergency room covering the costs because they are required to, yet "born here's" have no such coverage under law? The wall street stock shillers make a killing, that's about it. It's the magic beans for the cow fairy tale being sold to gullible people by their "superiors".

Re:the second and now third worlding of the US

[smilindog2000]

I think we agree that illegal immigration is bad. We basically get some other country's uneducated peasants, and have the burden of turning them and their kids into middle class Americans. Our economy has to create a job for them, our schools have to educate them, and our health care has to deal with them.

We probably also agree that stopping them from getting here in the first place is the right thing to do. Build that fence. Defend it.

On the subject of the ones who are already here, we have at least three choices:

- Kick them out. Seems hash, but if you don't want illegals here, that's what you'd have to do.
- Legalize them. Yeah, it sends the wrong message, but I hope you'd agree that it's better to start turning them into Americans rather than keeping them as outlaws.
- Ignore it, and keep things the same. Of course, that's what we will actually do.

IMO, the third alternative, doing nothing, is the worse by far. I'd be OK with either of the other two. Just pick one and solve the problem. If it were up to me, I'd legalize them, since that's just a lot easier. I think we should control illegal imigration at the boarder, and reward those resourceful enough to make it here anyway with a path to citizenship. But, that's just me. I'd go with any solution over doing nothing.

30 days: Outsourcing

[guidryp]

Anyone see this. Quite interesting I thought. Outsourced computer programmer goes to india to find an outsourced job.

http://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/originals/30days/m ain.html

My company is doing hefty outsourcing. My group used to be mostly in Canada/USA with a bit of other countries. Now we are more like an even split between Canada/India/China.

I used to find it wasteful just dealing Canada/USA when we spoke the same language and had close to the same time zone. Now it is just FUBAR. By the time upper management clues in, I think it will be beyond too late.

Splitting development of the same product up into different locations in the same country is not the brightest thing to do. Across international borders that still share the basics, still less bright, but throw in massive language/geographic/time zone divide and you are looking for disaster. But hey the books will look better this quarter...

Re:30 days: Outsourcing

[CavemanKiwi]

So move all development to India, which would seem to be the conclusion of your post. That would make the bottom line better for all quarters.

Re:30 days: Outsourcing

[dave562]

Now it is just FUBAR. By the time upper management clues in, I think it will be beyond too late.

Splitting development of the same product up into different locations in the same country is not the brightest thing to do. Across international borders that still share the basics, still less bright, but throw in massive language/geographic/time zone divide and you are looking for disaster. But hey the books will look better this quarter...

It has been long enough at this point that I can probably include facts and not get into too much trouble. Quantum ATL (the robotic tape library people) were trying to impliment Clarify to handle all of their customer support, warranty support, warranty sales... basically the entire backend sans manufacturing. The company I worked for got called in to do Crystal Reports to pull all of the data out of the new system. We did our job great and the reports worked, woo hoo, go us!

The rest of the migration didn't go so well. Quantum tapped this Indian company to do the main implimentation. The time difference was the hugest cluster-fuck ever. Any time a question came up on Quantum's side, we sent an email to India. Then we waited UNTIL THE NEXT DAY for an answer. We waited with fingers crossed that the response would be an answer, and not a request for clarification. Eventually the project got shut down because it had gone so far over budget and so far beyond the time frame for completion that management decided it was better to scrap it than to try to salvage the project.

For what it's worth, the Quantum team was pretty on the ball. They were the first company that I worked for as a consultant where I thought, "Wow, the project managers know what is going on." They had timelines, and scopes of work, and well deligated responsibilies and well setup processes to keep things flowing. The problems came in with what should have been simply answered questions. Things like, "Can we put X data in Y field?"

It's probably been 5 years since I worked on that project. In this day and age with internet connections being what they are, and remote connectivity at the stage that it is, I think that things are probably a bit better. None the less, if you're working with an Indian company, you need to be able to count on them having someone who is awake AND WORTH A DAMN at 3am their local time.

Re:30 days: Outsourcing

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah I've seen the same thing. FUBAR = India+clueless managers/PMI project managers.

Why not Costa Rica Instead

[coldcanofbeer]

I recently outsourced myself to Costa Rica and am enjoying it. Unlike the people in the article who work for companies in India, I do not work for any companies here in Costa Rica. The pay would be lousy. Instead I do the same software development work I did in California.

Here is link to a writeup I wrote recently on the experience:
Outsourcing Myself to Costa Rica

Re:Why not Costa Rica Instead

[Anonymous Coward]

I was thinking of vacationing there. How are the whores?

OK

[zogger]

Sure, I'll ask! What are some of the more unusual cultural differences you have experienced?

Re:OK

[PeteyG]

There's a few big ones. There are so MANY people here, it's so inexpensive to have people perform services... especially for people who can afford to spend a few extra rupees. There will NEVER be a vending machine in India. For example, auto rickshaws can be secured for an entire day or evening... and a nice taxi cab can be had for an entire weekend for just twenty-thirty USD. The driver will be YOURS for that whole time. It's crazy.

The driving is insane. There's a Youtube video somewhere of an Indian city's intersection... it is a harrowing experience, I am definitely happy to pay a local driver.

In the US, lines are a FIFO system (first in first out), but in India... there is a somewhat more complex algorithm going on. I haven't entirely figured it out yet... but until I do, Indians feel free to cut in front of each other in lines for whatever reason. It's annoying, but it's just the way things happen here.

No beef, really. Big surprise, eh?

The most startling thing, however, is how similar the cultures here are. Cell phones, western clothes, Indian computer nerds play Counterstrike for fun, (almost) everyone speaks some amount of English... for all the differences, it hasn't been to tough an adjustment.

Re:You make the assumption that greedy is a bad th

[jthill]

Do you believe that everything valuable can, let alone should, have a price tag?

If not, then either your premises are false even on your own terms or you're not addressing his point.

Capitalism is an excellent, unparalleled, peerless, unmatched system, in a league all its own and very nearly magical at allocating scarce resources for maximum return.

One simple and ironic fact is, it sucks at distributing the abundant ones: nobody can make any money on those. The only way to make it work there is to produce artificial scarcity.

In light doses that's a reasonable stunt that works just about as well as anything. At some point it crosses over, and becomes just fanatically insisting that everything's a nail.

LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

Managing a business to break even means you'll manage to break your back working until you die.

REAL reverse off-shoring

[Colonel Panic]

This isn't reverse off-shoring, this is Westerners moving to India for Jobs that have been offshored from the places they come from.

In a real example of reverse off-shoring, I was contacted a few months ago by someone from an Indian consulting company that needed someone to do some development work for them who was "closer to the customer" (in this case closer to their customer in the US - I'm in the US). I basked in the irony for a while and then decided against it.

Re:REAL reverse off-shoring

[Tablizer]

Then what would you call it? B-1H?

Note that India tends to be socialistic in attitude. They only "embrace" heavy capitalism when they are the clear beneficiaries. I doubt they would ever allow masses of incoming IT visa workers if they fealt it would risk their jobs.

Re:You make the assumption that greedy is a bad th

[sgt_doom]

Excellent post, good citizen. I direct you (if you've never read him) to the social economics philosopher, Henry George, an individual with an extraordinary grasp of what transpires in society - as applicable today as it was in his time.....

A very good question..

[leeum]

I have to say, this is a really excellent question but one which, I'm afraid, takes an entire treatise and months of intense study to get a reasonable grasp of the subject. I'll grab the bull by the horns and try to summarise it in one post. :)

Remember that shareholders get return on their invested money from two sources: dividends and the sale price of the shares when they get around to selling them. Theoretically, it shouldn't matter if the company doesn't pay any dividends at all, because the increase in the value of the shares should reflect the value of the dividends that weren't paid.

Earnings growth appears to be the best solution we have at the moment for several reasons. Financial types generally assume that a company that has stagnated in growing its earnings is either a failing company or has reached its peak and needs to adapt. This is due to the concept of the time value of money, which in a nutshell means that a dollar gained today is worth more than a dollar gained at the same time next year. Shareholders want to see earnings growth because it signals to them that the company is increasing its value, which theoretically should drive up the price of the company's shares (since it means that each shareholder's share of the pie is worth more) and so on.

Essentially, a company should aim to increase its profit growth figures by at least the cost of capital, i.e. the amount that the company needs to pay to exist as it stands. Anything less than that indicates that the company is destroying value which theoretically means that the share price should go down.

Re:A very good question..

[automandc]

Thank you & bladesjester for taking on my naive question. My understanding, however (and probably wrong) is that the metric isn't the quantity of earnings, but the percentage relative to costs. So companies that predict a $.10 return this quarter are smacked if they don't predict $.12 next quarter. I agree that some companies should grow through opening new markets or entering existing markets. But my preception is that a healthy company that serves a particular market and is content to earn the same decent return on its costs year-after-year gets punished. But, if I owned a small or medium size business and earned 5% return every year I might be content with that, considering my personal out-of-pocket is zero. But I would get punished by Wall Street if I attempted to go public. The entire Wall Street mentality seems to encourage the slash-and-burn method of corporate growth. Companies that once spent millions investing in potentially speculative R&D (e.g., HP, AT&T/Bell) slashed all of that (e.g. Agilent, Lucent), in favor of the quick buck. Entering new markets is also a finite plan. What will Walmart do when there are no other grocery/general stores in the country? Just like McDonalds got hammered recently because they had saturated the domestic market and weren't doing well overseas. But the fact is, McDonalds will probably continue to sell just as many hamburgers for just as much money here in the U.S., so why are they fundamentally a bad company for not opening new stores? This method of appeasing Wall Street is the source of the growing monopolies by certain businesses like Walmart.

Re:A very good question..

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Be careful to distinguish accounting profit vs cashflow. I can see a lot of situations (And I'm sure there are a lot of case studies available) where companies grow themselves into insolvency.

How long before Indian convenience stores...

[VampireByte]

... are being run by Americans?

Free Enterprise & Open Markets

[starrsoft]

This illustrates once more the superiority of free enterprise and open markets. India performed the task more efficiently and things got outsourced there. Now we are seeing that while there was temporary pain for American IT workers, in the end it all works out if people are agile enough to adapt. The end net result is better QoL for everyone.

Re:Free Enterprise & Open Markets

[sgt_doom]

You can adapt you ass to someplace else where dummies live....

It isn't cheap labor, folks!

[RexRhino]

I know everyone thinks that outsourcing because the labor is cheaper. That is not the case.

Here are some reasons jobs are outsourcing overseas:

1. The people are better educated. OK, so maybe U.S. comp-sci people from a top-notch University like MIT might be the best in the world, but that is the minority of people in the tech buisness. The average Indian who goes in for an IT tech support job is better educated in the basics of math, science, and a lot of times english, than the average American who goes in for the job.

2. There is less American style stupidity. In India, you don't have to worry about being sued for $2,000,000, because an employee was offended when she heard two other employees discussing a Sienfeld episode in the lunchroom. In India, you don't have to worry about being sued for $5,000,000 because the bathroom stalls are half a centimeter too narrow, and therefore it is an "act of discrimination" against disabled people. You don't have to worry about some cry-baby law suit if the air conditioner doesn't work that good and so the office is 77 degrees instead of 72 degrees, or that the company isn't doing enough to accomidate their schitzophrenic employees or employees with terrets syndrom, or whatever. (I realize a lot of that kind of stupidity is now common in Western Europe too... but no-one is worried about American jobs being outsourced to Western Europe)

3. Regulatory costs. There is just a lot of stupid legislation and regulations than American buisnesses have to adhere to. I know, you think that regulation and legislation are good things because it "protects us"... but believe me, the vast majority of legislation is not to protect anyone. If legislation, lets say to protect the enviornment as an example, was really designed to protect the enviornment, it would be a clear, simple, short, and easily followed set of rules that anyone could understand - not the hundreds of thousands of pages of byzantine convoluted rules that only a lawyer who specializes in enviornmental law can understand. The vast majority of regulation is some sort of protectionism scheme, some licencing scheme to protect a certain profession or buisness interest, etc. And adhering to the hundreds of thousands of pages of laws you are required to follow has real costs... especially when you consider those costs occure everywhere along the supply chain leading up to your buisness.

4. There is a better work ethic. America used to have a great work ethic, but as time goes on Americans get lazier and lazier. When you pull into a shopping mall parking lot, and you see people about to fight over a parking spot in front of the building when there are empty spots about 10 meters away... well, if people can't walk 10 meters from their damn SUV to the shopping entrance, that kind of lazyness has got to effect their work as well!

5. The metric system. Come on America, step into the 20th century already and adopt the metric system. Not using the metric system does effect our economy. And for a reason why the U.S. hasn't adopted the metric system, see issue #4.

6. Taxes are high. Even if tax rates are considered low (although corporate tax rates in the U.S. are actually higher than in places like Sweden), you must look at the GDP consumed by government to know what the real tax rate is... because GDP consumed by the government is the actual way to measure how much the government is taking away from us. And in the U.S., our GDP consumed by the government is one of the highest in the world (well over 50%). American has an extremly high tax rate, that is cleverly concealed by inflation and deficit spending.

Sorry folks, the U.S. is no longer the free-market (at least relatively) and open society (at least relatively) that once made it an economic superpower. The United States still has a huge domestic market and lots of accumulated capital, so the U.S. economy is not going to collapse soon... But it is not cheap labor that is driving jobs out of the United States. It is the United States driving jobs out of the United States.

Re:It isn't cheap labor, folks!

[Anonymous Coward]

#4: We're talking technology, not malls, right? Apples and Oranges.

#5: Division by 12 keeps us on our toes. Shifting decimals left and right is for lazy people. Math literate people don't need training wheels on their units of measurement!

Re:You make the assumption that greedy is a bad th

[Jerf]

Do you believe that everything valuable can, let alone should, have a price tag? If not, then either your premises are false even on your own terms or you're not addressing his point.

I have no idea what you're babbling about. I was just clarifying the point that "greed" is an easily-misunderstood word. Where you leap to the idea that "everything" should have a price tag or the entire idea of scarcity is beyond me. I've double-checked my post and the one I was replying to and I still can't find it.

(Did you miss a post in the sequence? I was replying to this, not anything else.)

89% uptime. = fucking terrible.

[petermgreen]

thats an average of arround 2 and a half hours per day.

or to put it another way when you wan't to fire off an e-mail to a friend or worse a buisness contact there is a 1 in 10 chance that you will fail.

Re:89% uptime. = fucking terrible.

[thej1nx]

Nonsense.

You are painting it as "unreliable" to send emails. It is not.

And the above person is an idiot for using a figure like "89%". How on earth can you get that accurate a number ? He should have simply said "every month, there will be 1 or 2 days when you may not be able to connect for a few hours". Simple as that.

It is unreliable to rely on a single ISP. That is all. Thanks to the high demand, the servers are sometimes unable to cope with the demand and suffer occasional meltdown or might be unable to accept anymore connections(on dialups). i.e. there will be a day every month when you are not able to connect. But considering that if you are in the middle class or upper class, which is the one to be able to afford internet, it is well within your reach to afford a backup dialup connection as well. This being India, it is not that expensive after all. Use broadband in general. Switch to dialup in case of emergencies. Works for almost everyone usually.

I am pretty sure that our "I-want-100%-uptime" american cousins, at least in case of businesses, keep a backup connection too, if connectivity is all that important to them.(and no we don't need to pay a monthly fee for the second backup cnnection. There are pre-paid plans which work on a per-minute basis)

Ofcourse, if you lack smarts, the idea of keeping another ISP as backup emergency connection, will never occur to you in the first place. And it is a bad idea to goto a developing country's job market, which requires all your smarts to survive in, if you lack the smarts and reasoning capability to compete with the locals.

Re:You make the assumption that greedy is a bad th

[jthill]

Perhaps I misread your blanket assertion that refusing a 5% return in favor of a 2% return is 'stupid'. Did some electrons go dogie on us here? Should I send Jake and his nephew out to search the tubes?

The discussion is on the ethics of seeking maximum return regardless of other considerations. That's commonly called "greed". Your example was of seeking maximum return regardless of other considerations. You called "its opposite 'stupid'".

My reply was addressing the necessary premise: for that to work without utterly disregarding morality, everything of value would have to be accurately reflected in the monetary calculations. In the ordinary run of things, that's accurate.

Where everything has a more-or-less accurate price, and nobody's got their thumb on the scale, then I agree with you: the market will sort it out, and trying to jiggle its elbows is only going to hurt people and make the jiggler look stupid. And under those circumstances, I'll agree with you on the 5%-vs-2% characterization. And I used ~magic~ in the same spirit you did. Emergent behavior is spooky, and this one generates nearly unmanageable torrents of wealth.

But that situation doesn't describe the topic.

See? "Either your premises are false," "or you're not addressing his point", even if we use greed only in its lighthearted-jargon sense.

NOT the only way to grow a country

[Tablizer]

Outsourcing our jobs is massively painful, but at least we're helping make the world a better place.

There is no evidence that massive trade imbalances with the US is the ONLY way to grow a country. The US grew because the local economies were allowed to thrive, NOT because Europe offshored to us. Euro terrifs were too high to rely primarily on that.

Dumping cheap goods and labor on the US as a path to growth is a bad fad.

The talent pool is still limited

[dr_pump95]

The Indian companies can put a massive number of inexpensive people onto a job, but they still need talented and experienced people to lead. Talented people are no more common in India than anywhere else, so this trend indicates a willingness to look outside their country for talent. Smart move in my opinion.

Everything is backwards

[Tablizer]

Everything is backwards these days.

Robots do the "Human" and humans do the "Robot":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rokOtmUhos0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y06xLNHsznA

Re: I'm pretty sure it is, actually

[harborpirate]

Yes, I'm sure paying less than 1/3 of the cost in salary and benefits isn't whats attacting companies to outsource. Seriously, you actually believe thats not the main factor?

Reductions in litigation and regulations may seem advantageous, however, I tend to disagree somewhat. Who's at more of an advantage, an employee making 50K per year or a corporation pulling down 20+ billion in profits? Large corporations have fleets of well paid lawyers. As for regulations, there's a reason that large corporations pour millions into PACs and other political concerns...

I think work ethic can be debated, most certainly. Are there lazy people? Sure, especially in a good economy, where the pressure to work hard is reduced. But the people at the top of their profession, such as high quality software developers, did not get there by being lazy, believe me.

Taxes are a legitamite concern, yes, but I consider that part of the reduction in payroll required when outsourcing.

All-in-all it comes down to this: There are only so many high quality developers to go around. India may be cranking out mediocre programmers by the barrelfull, but its not increasing the top quality developers at a very much increased rate. You see the same thing in the U.S. There are tons of mediocre programmers coming out of the ITTs and Devrys of the world, heck even quality CS programs produce a number of mediocre developers. A much smaller number of people who can be considered true Software Architects, who continue to develop and broaden their skillset and gain valuable experience in the best practices for building software - those are the valuable people. Even in India, those people don't grow on trees.

Its not reverse offshoring!

[Likerock]

Hello all, first I'm a new poster to slashdot so bear with me, although I've been a reader for a few years. I am one of the 126 Americans currently in India working for Infosys. We are not here permananetly, in fact we are here for only 6 months to receive training. Infosys is giving us jobs back in the US after our training is complete. The reason for us coming to India is because they have a world class training center here that is a cross between a university and club med. After that is over we'll be working in the US with newly created American jobs, the next 300 Americans to come will also be working in newly created American jobs. I am personally thankful for the opportunity as it allowed me to have a job right after graduation and also gave me the chance to travel and experience a new culture at the same time. Make sure you have all the facts down before you bash whats going on. There have been a lot of press agencies covering what is going on over here and they have repeatedly misquoted and mistated the facts.

Dangers of Offshoring / Reverse Offshoring

[Stop Crying Bitch!]

I many ways people brought this Offshoring nightmare upon themselves. The collapse of the DOTCOM boom was the beginning of this scandalous mess. Every developer still believed they were worth $200,000 a year. So development Offshoring began.

Since then, the popularity of Offshoring large portions of Information Technology has boomed. Now many companies are Offshoring their IT because they feel their competition will beat them in market share, stock price, profitability and ability to rapidly improve product. All these fears are true, but this is only viewing this ugly beast from one angle. It's like looking at only one area of a prism and not the others.

From a short term business point of view Offshoring makes the most sense. Have you looked at the long term point of view for Privacy, Corporate Security, National Security, Job Stability, Effective Pricing and how this will have an impact on your organization?

For instance let's take a quick look at job stability and effective pricing. Here it is the year 2016, Information Technologies such as networking and programming are no longer key areas of focus for people. India understands they are the global leader n this market, what is the first thing that will happen? Prices will drastically increase! The TCO for projects will go through the roof just as if it were another DOTCOM BOOM. We will be forced to pay the ever rising costs because there is no localized talent for doing these particular jobs.

Here is another angle you don't here about much. The Privacy of Your Data OffShore!
India has the highest job turnover rate of about 80%. Everyone is changing jobs to make more money like they did here during the DOTCOM BOOM. Others are performing illegal acts like extracting and selling user information that they have access too. Last year this was brought to light when an Employee in India was caught selling information obtained from banks.

You are by now probably asking yourself, how can this get any worse? Hold on for this one! Many companies have begun to complain about how expensive security, compliance and regulation are becoming. So companies have begun to off shore their security efforts to India now. I have been a penetration tester for 8 years. This is by far the stupidest move I have ever seen in my entire life. I have had the pleasure of re-testing numerous applications and networks originally tested by an Indian firm. I'm going to be nice and not mention these firms but let's just say, they missed 80% of the critical vulnerabilities. Then you ask yourself what companies would do this, well several banks with off shore efforts, software companies like Adobe, and numerous other companies. Did anyone do an impact analysis on this decision? I doubt it! What will the turnout be? I know I will not purchase any software that out-sources security to India. I know the Department of Defense will most likely drop their contracts with any such company for reasons of National Security.

Finally, how does OffShoring impact National Security? In this case it impacts world security. How is this possible you are probably asking yourself? It's easy THE WHOLE WORLD OUTSOURCES TO INDIA! I have worked with clients in Germany, London, France, Abu Dabi, Dubai, and numerous other countries and they all outsource to India! This violates the #1 Security Rule! NEVER Have a Single Point of Failure!

Now let's think "Outside The Box" on what I am talking about! India has become the IT Epicenter of the world. Before making vital business decisions has anyone corporation performed a geographical study or demographical study of the key areas around where we are outsourcing? One scenario that I am talking about is the fact that all the key areas in India where we are doing our outsourcing are prone to: Earthquakes, Massive Flooding and Possible Tsunamis. Now those are only the potential problems with Nature. Let's look at other Potential Threat Models. What about the major disputes between India and Pakistan, both countries have been kno

Just economics as usual.

[FishinDave]

This trend may be new to the IT industry, but it shouldn't be a surprise. Jobs go where labor is cheap. Productive economic activity generates more jobs than there are people to fill them locally. Then people go where the jobs are. That's how economics distributes populations.

It's a good thing, IMHO, to reverse the flow of populations from rural to urban areas, and from overdeveloped nations to underdeveloped nations. Such dispersion of populations is good for the environment. An American in India will consume less resources and generate less garbage than the same American at home, because India's consumption infrastructure can't hold a candle to that of the U. S. For example, the average Indian consumes 588 cubic meters of water and generates 1.3 metric tons of CO2 annually, vs. 1,677 cubic meters and 21.7 tons of CO2 for a U. S. resident. (Source: "Population & Consumption," National Wildlife Federation, 2001) An American guest worker won't live exactly like the average Indian, but his consumption and pollution will be constrained to a significant degree. That's a good thing.

The Industrial Revolution literally dragged people from farms to factories, forcing them into overcrowded cities. The Internet Revolution is reversing that trend, again enabling people to live and work in places unsuitable for factories. There is no longer compelling reason for most of us to crowd close to ore deposits, harbors, river confluences, railroads, and other points of industrial interest.

It should surprise no one that IT workers are among the first to take advantage of this newfound freedom to live where one chooses.

I do find this situation ironic, in that it's a mirror image of the immigration debate now raging in the U. S. India is experiencing an "invasion" of highly skilled foreigners, not lettuce pickers. The workers are coming from a high-income nation to one with a lower per capita income, in contrast to Mexico-to-U. S. immigration. It is the upwardly mobile Indian who feels threatened by foreign workers, while in the U. S. it's the marginally employable. Very interesting.