Slashdot Mirror
Land of the Videogame Star
The New York Times has up an article today looking at the phenomenon of videogame players treated like rockstars in the forward-thinking nation of South Korea. There, where televised gaming is all the rage, the appearance of a favorite player can provoke a reaction not unlike a teeny-bopper concert. From the article: "The objects of the throng's adoration were a dozen of the nation's most famous athletes, South Korea's Derek Jeters and Peyton Mannings. But their sport is something almost unimaginable in the United States. These were professional video gamers, idolized for their mastery of the science-fiction strategy game StarCraft. With a panel of commentators at their side, protected from the throbbing crowd by a glass wall, players like Lim Yo-Hwan, Lee Yoon Yeol and Suh Ji Hoon lounged in logo-spangled track suits and oozed the laconic bravado of athletes the world over. And they were not even competing. They were gathered for the bracket selection for a coming tournament season on MBC Game, one of the country's two full-time video game television networks. And while audiences watched eagerly at home, fans lucky enough to be there in person waved hand-lettered signs like 'Go for it, Kang Min' and 'The winner will be Yo-Hwan {oheart}.' " ESPN, take note.
or should 'forward thinking' and an still playing an ancient (though exellent) game not go together?
Matt
You have 1 Moderator Point! Use it or lose it! Is that a threat? -vapid
If we could harness the energy of the crowd and the laconic bravado of the athletes, we could use the bravado to power the tournaments, and the crowd to power the television networks. Or, we could have everyone that wants to be in the crowd be on an exercise bike: Most energy generated is that tournament's biggest fan.
"In no instance have the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people." James Madison
Are they getting laid or not?!
That said, since twitch becomes so important, they really do deserve to be called "Athletes."
I used to carry a bottle of whiskey for snake bite. And two snakes. -Nefarious Wheel
feel free to disable the Games section in your Slashdot preferences if you don't like it.
Well, they did kill the radio stars...
How would that change the fact that the editors are not providing enough content in other areas?
Yeah you can hide in the corner, blind-fold yourself and yell Beatles sucks, Elvis sucks, Bob Dylan sucks or whatever. You don't have to like any of those artists nor Starcraft. But you don't like it doesn't mean it sucks.
They've played Starcraft for a while now, but they'll stop playing eventually. They used to play Quake, but now they're playing something else, and soon they'll abandon that and play yet another new game. Compare this to chess or any of the physical sports that have been practised for centuries or millennia. Gaming is quite unlike any sport (that I can think of) because the "sport" keeps changing. It's like using tennis rackets but changing the rules and the playing area every few years. If you're competing with consoles, then even the controller keeps changing. Everything is completely transient. Can you think of a sport or similiar activity that is similiar to video gaming in this way? What about hardware and software settings - does everyone use the same gear and settings in tournaments? It's really amazing what kind of a difference your mouse can make.
Anyway, it's cool that people are competing in computer and video gaming, but I just can't take it seriously as a professional "sport" for some reason. I don't think there's really even any effort in video gaming. Anyone can do it. Those guys just sit on their asses twelve hours a day, play a video game and drink Coca-Cola. Kind of like every other hardcore gamer on the planet, but the only difference is that for some reason they're just a little better than others... with the current game, anyway. There just isn't any real effort involved. Think about how much effort someone needs to put into a sport like boxing. All the training, conditioning, repetition, injuries... if we compare video gaming with something like chess, I don't think it still qualifies. Chess is an ancient and well-established game, and being the best isn't quite as simple as being the best Counter-Strike player. It requires more effort, more intelligence, more talent, more training.
Come to think of it, I'd respect any strategy mastermind over a rapper on MTV singing* about murders. There is a line of course and it ends just before RPGs.
Just my 50 cents
An unhealthy obsession with video games by the South Korean youth is considered "forward-thinking"?
If South Korean gamers can get lots of hot groupies, maybe I should move there. Mmmmm... groupies.
Not the fact that gaming is popular is South Korea, but rather the fact that the submitter describes it as forward thinking. I love Nethack and Q3A as much as the next guy, but there are some things playing a real sport will do that videogames won't.
*Get you in shape
*Teach you teamwork
*Teach you leadership
*Teach you commitment
*Get you laid
Make fun of athletes all you want, but the fact is that varsity collegiate athletes make more money than non-athletes after they graduate college. Competing and being part of a team that's bigger than yourself teaches you something that I'm not sure videogames can replicate. Years of studying Go is one thing, Starcraft is another entirely.
I know lot of Slashdotters like John Taylor Gatto's work. He used to be very much against sports, but after analyzing the differences between public and private schools he has since changed his position. He now says that playing sports in high school isn't just an option, it's the only way to achieve grace.
Interesting point; perhaps, turn-based games like Civilisation and Advance Wars would be more suited to making tournaments that would be considered worth watching in the West?
This certainly explains the plummeting birthrates in South Korea. So even if everyone is a gaming geek, they *still* don't get laid. Time for Plan B...
Seeing as how it's an entirely opinion based system it could indeed suck ... for him. There is no correct opinion.
I'm moving. That's all I'm saying.
*Get you in shape
OK, point taken
*Teach you teamwork
I think huge guilds do tech team work, thinks like counter strike is also easier to do in a team, if your playing against a team
*Teach you leadership
If your leading a group then you'll learn more leadership than playing football as a defender and just taking orders
*Teach you commitment
I've seen people do hundereds of hours of play, some into thousands - that's commitment
*Get you laid
hm, I bet these guys get laid plenty for what they do.
I think that any idea of a "star" is a little silly though, especially when what they do contributes nothing to society... what I find offensive is that people idolise these "stars" and pay them loads of money when useful people like nurses are practically in poverty
Video games won't get you laid? Well if you're at the top level and have a mob of fans from playing games, your chances of getting laid increase somewhat dramatically.
*Teach you teamwork
*Teach you leadership
*Teach you commitment
*Get you laid
Apart from possibily the last point, a synchronised Dance Dance Revolution team would be doing this!
See, you're not just making a prat of yourself! Its a sport!
And if you loose the first point too you could point out CS or Guild Wars as well, and all the other games that are similar.
"I may be full of crap about this game, and I may be wrong, and that's fine." -Jack Thompson
I'm a real athlete too, infact I just came from a fencing tornament today, and I find your broad insulting respons rather offensive my self. Your "get laid" remark aside (lets be honest thats just trolling) computer games can teach all of the things you just mentioned except get into shape because well that's just the nature of the game, pun intended I guess. For example I used to play competitivly in Tribes 2. We had a whole team, 16+ members, we had weekly practices, and we had a leader. Gee that sounds like teamwork, leadership, and commitment to me doesn't it? My point is there is nothing wrong with sports, or virtual sports. They both can foster the exact same "life skills" that your talking about, internet disconnect aside. Unless you purely value "Geting into shape" and "Getting Laid" as the only good qualities that you need in life, which I'm pretty sure some video game players have been able to do. Most of these Korean superstar players infact aren't horribly obease and I'm pretty sure being superstars they have no problem getting chicks.
If we look at baseball for example, it's a timeless sport. People did, do, and will continue to play the game. It's a part of our culture, the great american past time. It's going to be with us for a long time. But what about Starcraft? Can it last 100 years like baseball? Or will the crowd move on to the newest RTS or Starcraft 2, perhaps leaving these players out in the cold when their skills don't carry over? There will always be a great deal of people who would go to a baseball game. In 15 years, will there even be anybody still interested in Starcraft?
I think it's great that they are able to achieve fame, but they should enjoy it while it lasts, for they will never be as remembered as baseball legends, like Babe Ruth or Jackie Robinson.
It's certainly a different "world" in Korea. I'd just like to interject that the video game "stars" over there do keep in physical shape. They train extensively not only on the keyboard, but also go through physical training. In team games, the top Korean teams train in light calisthenics and do extensive team drills both in-game and in sports. The feeling is that the mind and the body must be in top shape in order to perform professionally at the highest levels. Couch potatoes need not apply.
My experience of gaming is that it actually teaches you a huge amount about teamwork and leadership. Some of the better FPS Clans rely on both of those extensively in fact - well-drilled clan fireteams operates in very similar fashion to a military (or at least professional paintball) platoon (eg. fire-and-movement principle, etc.). And if you'd ever tried running a clan, well you'd know all about the leadership it demands.
;-)
Get in shape however - very true, gaming hinders your fitness, bigtime. Commitment? Well, there is commitment of sorts, but perhaps not in the same frame of reference as sport. As for getting laid - I think in South Korea there's probably no shortage of groupies, but elsewhere I daresay you're right... although your improved grip strength from all that mousing may prove useful in the interim
Disclaimer: I've represented my country in sport. I've also played in FPS clans extensively in national comps.
You know, I understand where you are going, but you are wrong on some of those bullet points.
;-)
1. Shape
True. Sitting on your ass, doesn't get you in shape. Unless you count "large behind" as a shape.
2. Teamwork
Actually, that depends. For a 1on1 FPS game like Quake (insert number here) or a RTS game like Starcraft, that might be true. For a team-oriented gamer like Counter-Strike that is not true, quite the opposite. 5 players HAVE to work together, otherwise they will get raped by the other team. Most of these teams practice 6-8 hours a day, 4-5 days a week. They are often spread out over vast distances, and only communicates thru a VoIP program (like Ventrilo). Take my word for it, that teaches them a lot of teamwork. If anyone fucks up while they're playing, they all get punished (by losing the round or the match). They can't see eachothers facial expressions or bodylanguage, so it can be really hard to understand humour and passing remarks. They learn teamwork - and under hard conditions.
3. Leadership
Yeah, I guess you have a point there. Some of these guys learn to motivate and give commands, but thats usually 1 out of 5 players on a team. He usually gets quite good at it tho.
4. 6-8 hours a day. 4-5 days a week. Playing online. From remote locations. Thats commitment. It might not be the same kind of commitment you see in the gym or on the track, but its commitment.
5. Get laid
You would be REALLY amazed by the gaming culture these guys live in. I was something of a celebrity myself in my local gaming community a few years back, a manager of the top team in that country, and the editor-in-chief of the biggest community site for these players. I saw more action doing that, than I did while I was DJ'ing popular nightclubs back when I was fresh out of school. Every culture has their groupies, this is no exception. While you probably couldn't pick up women at a bar by boasting about your gamign skills, you can definitely pick them up from within the community just by being celeb-like. Nothing to be proud of, just saying it happened. And as most slashdotters would probably agree, once we can approach women by text, we have fairly good chances of coming of as intelligent funny people. Simply a lot easier steer conversations in the right directions, and you dont have to worry too much about being shy (or her being shy). These people are the last frontier of IRC networks, and the girls/groupies/female gamers are there as well.
"And if you loose the first point "
Grammar is apparently NOT one of the things you can learn. -sigh-
Except for point A certain games actually can do the other points (the last however mostly in other countries, at least since arcades died here in the US). So I don't see the complaint your making as very valid...
Teamwork, leadership, and commitment: I used to be part of a team that played CS and these were all big points for everyone in that team... Why? Because we played in a league and wanted to prove we were as good if not better than others. If you don't work together you die (there are some rare exceptions, but...), If you have no leadership you die (again with a few rare exceptions), If you lack commitment to developing your skills together you lack both teamwork and leadership and suffer the fates already listed.
Go (much like chess) is played in an almost solitary manner, so that btw makes a very bad example... You need one other person and a few years back online Go took huge strides because it solved the lack of available players... much as it does for most other games... In fact most such games all suffer a lack of points 2-5, & normally 6 as well...
I hate sports because people make such a big stink over it... I'm expected to worship the 'sports gods' like every other know nothing... I hated them in high school, I still hate them today... I couldn't care less who wins the next football game in my area... I couldn't care less what games are even 'in season'... I seriously doubt I'll ever care...
we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
*Teach you teamwork
*Teach you leadership
*Teach you commitment
Are all things you can get from playing a video game... Play a Multi-Player game like Shadowbane where you have to gather and lead and army of 200 people to deffend your castle against 200+ people trying to attack it..
You need teamwork to have 2 groups of 200+ people workign together in groups of 10.
You need leadership to organize and lead your 200 people
you need commitment to show up and sit around for 2-4 hours because someone is attacking. to be in a guild you have to be reliable.
Yeah for the 1% that make it. Do you know how many D-1 athletes are just glorified burger flippers now?
... Derek Jeters and Payton Mannings?
Your comparison breaks down because The Beatles had talent, Bob Dylan has talent, Elvis had talent, so someone saying "Bob Dylan sucks" is perhaps trying to incite something, maybe they are simply a blowhard about what they like/dislike, or whatever but that does not remove the talent these artists have. Starcraft on the other hand just plain sucks.
"Obesity Killed the Videogame Star"
I actually wrote a research paper on this last year. There is actually a surprising amount of academic papers written on this subject along with the World of Warcraft phenomenon.
I know lot of Slashdotters like John Taylor Gatto's work. He used to be very much against sports, but after analyzing the differences between public and private schools [edflix.org] he has since changed his position. He now says that playing sports in high school isn't just an option, it's the only way to achieve grace.
I think most Slashdotters would agree that high school sports as a concept are a wonderful thing. It's the assholes who play them that kept us away.
"Idol" obsession is nothing new in that part of the world. When I lived there it was nutty the people and things that would suddenly become popular, but its really fleeting...think Andy Warhol's definition and halve that. If someone made a tv show about accountants you can be sure that the day after the first show there would be a fan club. Professional gaming is gaining popularity but you can bet that the worlds best frisbee golfer will make the cover of sports Illustrated before some deathmatch winner will. Remember this is the country where people die from sleep deprivation and starvation from playing games...its a totally different culture.
If South Korea is a forward thinking nation for treating these gamers the way they do, I'll stick to my backward thinking ways, thank you very much.
People worship so called "stars" for the stupidest reasons. You might be better at playing Starcraft, running with a football, or acting in a movie, but that doesn't make you a better person. Got a talent? Good for you. Doesn't mean I have to listen to you. Your opinion is worth no more than anyone elses.
A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over. -Benjamin Franklin
we'll get to be as forward-thinking as the South Koreans. Don't hold your breath on that one.
Pass the chips, Payton Manning is playing!
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
but there are some things playing a real sport will do that videogames won't....Get you laid
But that's why e-porn was invented at the same time.
Table-ized A.I.
I disagree with you. Is not sport becuause has not been played for eons? HAHA. Bah.
Hee... I want to say that:
People that play games like athletes ruin the fun for everyone else. The way these poeple play kill all the dumbed down casual fun around. Gamming become something stressing, about perfection, fast reflex and the ladder, who is better than XYZ. That competitiviness can be cool for some teenagers, I guest, teenagers are already competitive, but for normal people is somewhat disgusting.
About this slashdot news. Let me download one!, Where I can watch that sport?.
-Woof woof woof!
Perhaps you would be interested in Technocrat.net
There are many games that improve your teamwork and leadership skills. Just like there are many solo sports which don't enhance those skills. I guess the article used "forward thinking" as a synonym of open mindness.
*Get you in shape DDR - Check! *Teach you teamwork DDR - Check! *Teach you leadership DDR - Check! *Teach you commitment DDR - Check! *Get you laid ... Damn
I think North Korea has the right idea with the nuclear weapons program.
Sorry, I have gamed at what passes for national level in my country, (misreably as it is) and I have learnt so much about teamwork, leadership, focus, strategy, dedication, that I had to respond. Nethack,morrowind,god of war - yes these games probably don't teach any of those things. But if you have ever tried, or even watched competition level gamers, you would never type those sentences. Teamwork, Leadership (cannot overemphasize that), strategy, dedication, practice for nearly 10 hours a day, these are required in abundances to be a top player or team for Counter Strike, Starcraft and Warcraft. I Garauntee, from personal experience, that playing a team oriented video game very quickly teaches you - what else? - to play in a team. It's so effective that it has been used by corproations to teach their employees! (Sorry I don't have the link and cant be bothered to find it right now.) If you read the article, you'd know that those players definitely have what it takes when it comes to commitment. They dedicate more hours than most people could stay awake, performing an incredibly taxing task. On Getting laid, if your a top player in korea, apparently you will get laid. If your a top player almost anywhere else then yes, your going to have to either get lucky or dedicate yourself to learning how. My personal opinion is that its not the game, as much as it is the player. I learnt from video games, as that is the arena I am able to apply myself in. Yours has been physical sports. There are other people who have not learnt all the same lessons from gaming as I have. Just as everyone has not learnt the same lessons from playing sports as you have. I got a chance to lead teams because I was good enough in other peopls eyes that they may have deigned to listen to me. But after that, people would listen because I was good at knowing what to do. I would never have gotten that chance if I took up a sport. Being bigger and having more muscles counts more than being fast and agile mentally. (not that its not as important in sports)I may be a brilliant leader- but who in their right mind is going to give you a chance to prove it if you cant even throw a ball properly? Anyone who competes at a high level has to learn those things, anyone who has a chance to compete has a chance to learn them. It dosent matter whether its a physical sport, or a virtual one.
Teamwork... especially since the more popular ones are multi-player
Leadership... see above comment
Commitment... it is very hard to get to the level of professional gamers
Get you laid... did you actually read TFA?
Basically you need to understand that America != Korea
In fact Professional Gaming is identical to our Western Gaming in that it becomes more about reflex and stamina, the only other differences are in culture however if you compare the Korean Pro Gaming culture to the American Athletic Gaming culture, you'll probably find that they are extremely similar, especially if you had RTFA!
That is an excellent arbitrary non-factual fact you have there... proof?
Oh well, I guess I'll just have to live without grace. What ever shall I do?
This is my footer. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
I know I've already seen Madden tournaments on tv. As video games continue to become more mainstream I'm sure we'll see more televised competition. If nascar, poker, or golf can produce pop stars in the US, why not video games?
Love your ethnocentric viewpoint.
In the pure form, the only legitimate points you have is "get you in shape" and "get you laid." Video games, many, will teach teamwork, leadership, commitment. Teamwork, leadership and commitment can be found in everything from America's Army to True Combat Elite, to Warcraft 3/TFT/WOW among countless other games.
If teamwork was to mean, "play with others", leadership was to mean "lead by example" and commitment to mean "dedication" then even some of the oldest titles such as Atari's Warlords would qualify for that.
Just because you get modded "insightful" on Slashdot doesn't mean you actually are in real life.
>That is an excellent arbitrary non-factual fact you have there... proof?
If you read The Game of Life, it's in there. Or I'd imagine you could just search JSTOR for studies on future earnings potential of athletes.
I remember when no korean gamer could beat me more than one time in ten in Starcraft. Then maphack came out and ruined the game.
God spoke to me.
Some of the best gamers in the US (and I'm sure other countries) work out because it helps them perform better in their game.
It really does. More people in korea play video games than play soccer. These "rockstar" gamers were ordinary people that had a talent. I can't go play football with Peyton Manning, and if I did, I would get creamed. I CAN go play quake with these guys, and be (a little bit) competitive. I can talk to them online, I can make friends with them online. This makes more sense than worshipping a soccer player that doesn't realize (or care that) you exist.
People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.
A very sorry comment on the subject of research papers, I'd say.
Good thing I can actually access JSTOR, I found one study from 1971 to 1980 and here are some things about it:
"the variable ATHLETE measure athletic success or perseverance rather than mere participation in college athletics."
There's also table 1 "Maximum Likelihood Analysis of Annual Income of College Graduates" which shows that an ATHLETE is likely to get 4% more than a non-ATHLETE, there are other factors that have larger payoffs like CHILDREN, VETERAN, FIRMSIZE, DRIVE, SUCCEED, WELLOFF, CONSTANT, MASTERS, PHDPROF, and MARRIED. They also found that being a female ATHLETE didn't help at all!
They also have a table for college completion rate that they introduce new variables that are not clearly defined. ATHLETE does help graduation, especially for females, but the other factors of YRSCOMP and DRIVE help males more.
So from their study, if you're not really going to fall into other categories, then be an ATHLETE.
They play Starcraft to keep in practice to defend against the Terran ( North Korean ) Nuclear attack. I hope the DMZ has some good turrets and a some science vessels searching for them NK ghost.
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
I did not exist 150 years ago, it may not exist in 100 more.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I love Starcraft. I played it for several years and had about a 650-40 record and all I got was a bunch of people pissed off at a LAN party :( Btw I'm bringing it back for an upcoming LAN party at my college that I'm in charge of, lol. But I have to mention that more than 75% of people when I last played used a map hack to reveal the location of everyone on the map (me included) and almost all asian players racked up a huge record with dummy accounts and with cheating like rushing in a no rush game. I wonder how cheap these guys play in tournaments where people are actually watching and they can't use hacks.
Is it just me or is it not going to upgrade to Vista in here?
I will not even try to google for Derek Jeters and Peyton Mannings. I have no idea who they are and I do not wish to know.
But I can say with confidence that most people in the US (and South Korea) will know nothing about Andy Flintoff, Jonah Lomu, Manuel Laureano Rodríguez Sánchez.
Each country have different sets of sporting heroes, I don't see why the activities that capture the imagination of people in one place should be the same in other places.
Bar football and the name Pele, I think there are no universal personalities in the world of sport.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
How does it go? Who's the fool, the fool or the fool who follows him?
I agree with you. Sadly, you got marked down as a troll.
.NET, PHP, etc.) be a bit offended if your neighborhood TV/VCR repairman kept advertising himself as a "computer programmer?"
Look at what the ancients called "Athletics": the Olympics - physical strength and endurance. The athletes bodies' were strong, conditioned, and healthy. You can't be an athlete and be unhealthy. Fat, sedentary, heart disease, etc. are not qualities of an athlete. Look at a basketball, hockey, soccer, or football player (other than the linemen). You know those are athletes and their bodies are conditioned. Compare that to these "athletes" who mash controllers, keyboards, and mice.
Sure, the video-game players are good at what they do. I'm not knocking them. But stop calling yourselves "athletes." That's like calling your average Joe a "computer programmer" because he knows how to set his VCR. Wouldn't you, a programmer (C/C++, Java,
It is required that while I play CS my family stands behind me in a hightened state of anticipation, when i win a round they all must cheer.. when i do happen to be shot and die and must wait for the next round, my wife will rub my shoulders and coo praise and "reasons" for my loss (they are definitely cheating, your hit didn't register, stupid server, etc) while my children refill my glass of redbull, wipe down my keyboard and or mouse from sweaty palms and re-arrange my chair height, fluff my seat cushion, etc.. like a well trained pit crew.
So I can relate...
(*note, some or all of this behind the scenes look is partialy or completely in my dreams, release of these dreams to my wife will most likely result in additional ridicule)
This looks interesting... I`m just waiting for EA to release a game based on this sport! Bet it would be a hit in South Korea!
Before you read this strip these words from your mind:
sport, game, nerd, athlete
ok.
If you're in shape.
If most people like you because you're a good team player
If you stand out among your crew because you're obviously the take charge, organized, glue that holds everbody together, Leader.
If in your day to day life you do/say things here and there that indicate you are capable of "commitment"
Add all those traits together (who cares how you got them) and your chances of getting laid increase by 75%
If less americans ate like pigs less would look like pigs.
I think pHatidic meant with a girl.
It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.