Land of the Videogame Star

The New York Times has up an article today looking at the phenomenon of videogame players treated like rockstars in the forward-thinking nation of South Korea. There, where televised gaming is all the rage, the appearance of a favorite player can provoke a reaction not unlike a teeny-bopper concert. From the article: "The objects of the throng's adoration were a dozen of the nation's most famous athletes, South Korea's Derek Jeters and Peyton Mannings. But their sport is something almost unimaginable in the United States. These were professional video gamers, idolized for their mastery of the science-fiction strategy game StarCraft. With a panel of commentators at their side, protected from the throbbing crowd by a glass wall, players like Lim Yo-Hwan, Lee Yoon Yeol and Suh Ji Hoon lounged in logo-spangled track suits and oozed the laconic bravado of athletes the world over. And they were not even competing. They were gathered for the bracket selection for a coming tournament season on MBC Game, one of the country's two full-time video game television networks. And while audiences watched eagerly at home, fans lucky enough to be there in person waved hand-lettered signs like 'Go for it, Kang Min' and 'The winner will be Yo-Hwan {oheart}.' " ESPN, take note.

Comments

is it just me..

[MattyCobb]

or should 'forward thinking' and an still playing an ancient (though exellent) game not go together?

Re:is it just me..

[Rix]

Is there a way to bump starcraft up past 640x480 that I don't know about, or do they just bleed from the eyes?

Re:is it just me..

[MSTCrow5429]

I think they're severely degarding the meaning of the phrase "forward thinking" here. Being lauded for playing a computer game is rather pathetic. Computer games are fun, but they're not real life accomplishments. Apparently, marketing is done excreting the words "forward thinking" out of every orifice, so now it's been handed down another level to those who don't even have real jobs (no, playing games for a living is unproductive and not a job).

Re:is it just me..

[Anonymous Coward]

Forward looking here probably refers to Korean's investment in high speed internet access for the masses. But you already knew that.

Re:is it just me..

[ampathee]

Being lauded for playing a computer game is rather pathetic. Computer games are fun, but they're not real life accomplishments.

Well, neither is playing football, or running very fast around a track. People are lauded for all sorts of stupid reasons.

Re:is it just me..

[kfg]

No, it's not just you, but that doesn't mean that ya'll aren't wrong.

KFG

Re:is it just me..

[kfg]

Computer games are fun, but they're not real life accomplishments.

Neither is wacking a little ball that has never done anything bad to you, or driving around in circles, but it makes people pop stars nonetheless.

KFG

Re:is it just me..

[Korin43]

Yeah, but watching football isn't considered "forward thinking".

Re:is it just me..

[chgros]

playing an ancient game
As opposed to what? Baseball? Football? Basketball?

Re:is it just me..

[Shadow99_1]

(no acting for a living is unproductive and not a job) - believed by the wife of one of my friends whose from China...
(no sports for a living is unproductive and not a job) - believed by at least a few dozen people I'm sure...
(no racing for a living is unproductive and not a job) - believed by anyone who has watched Taladega Nights...

What (by chance) makes you think your opinion is somehow more realivent than anyone elses?

Re:is it just me..

[MSTCrow5429]

For starters, I can spell "revelant."

Re:is it just me..

[name*censored*]

That's because, unlike watching football, watching people play video games is a new concept - thus it is "forward". No-one said it was better, just "forward" (forward does not necessarily = better).

Re:is it just me..

[Frozen Void]

640x480 should be enough for everybody.
(it works for me)

Re:is it just me..

[drsquare]

Maybe if more people played football and ran round tracks instead of playing computer games, there wouldn't be such an obesity crisis.

Re:is it just me..

[Drooling Iguana]

Really great games are timeless

Your comment would make sense if it was something like Total Annihilation, but I don't see what it has to do with Starcraft.

Re:is it just me..

[Richard Steiner]

Then again, TA has a lot more going for it than SC, including a somewhat more flexible video engine. :-)

Re:is it just me..

[Bloke down the pub]

Whoooooohs!

Re:is it just me..

[Bloke down the pub]

I can't even find a dictionary that understands 'Revelant'...

I can. OK, you have to cheat a bit and put them there funny upwards lines over the 'e's thusly: é

ESPN 8

[Anonymous Coward]

ESPN, take note.

Stuff like this would be perfect for ESPN 8: THE OCHO!

Re:ESPN 8

[Gunfighter]

Tonight at Ocho on the Ocho... North American Squares Showdown. Stay tuned afterwards for the Tetris Triathlon at nine.

Re:Bottom line?!

[petes_PoV]

probably not ... as the airport lounge has glass walls

Athletes

[PresidentEnder]

My problem with this is that it isn't skill in "videogames" in general that they're displaying, per se, nor stratigic thinking. At that level of Starcraft, twitch becomes as important as it is in first person shooters, and everything else takes a back seat. I'd like to see competitive showings of games that aren't all twitch speed. I have nothing against Starcraft; I'd be hard pressed to argue for any other game as my all-time favorite. I just can't see myself watching it, any more than I watch tennis or ping-pong (not that they don't get airtime).

That said, since twitch becomes so important, they really do deserve to be called "Athletes."

Re:Athletes

[rolfwind]

Twitch is important in some athletic competitions as well.

They shouldn't be called atheletes because there is nothing athletic in what they are doing.

athleti
1. Of or befitting athletics or athletes. 2. Characterized by or involving physical activity or exertion; active: an athletic lifestyle; an athletic child.

This much should be obvious. But since the Olympic Games are giving out (or thinking of giving out) Gold Medals for Chess, I guess it comes down to who can win the technicalities battle with the best semantic argument - common sense be damned.

Re:Athletes

[gad_zuki!]

Not only is skill questionable so is the repeatability of these performances. I dont see how this is any different than those old game magazines showing us the guy who played ms pacman for 96 hours straight. The submitted wrote "forward thinking" and I dont feel that there is anything forward about this, just different. As far as the teeny-bopper effect goes, well, my friends and I still love the beatles and there is little question about their talent, output, and effect on rock music. I doubt we'll hear from these guys once the nextgen of games come out. Not to mention, theres a lot wrong in praising the users while ignoring the developers.

Re:Athletes

[Mavric1337]

Except your ignoring the fact that you do not play Ms. Pacman versus another human. These people are competing against each other just like any other type of competitive sport, only difference being that they are behind a computer. Whether or not using a computer makes you an athelete is irrelevent, these people are still competitors.

Re:Athletes

[xIcemanx]

You've clearly never played high-level Starcraft.

Korean pros practice for so long not to increase their handspeed (which is as fast as it can get) but to get a better grasp on the strategy of the game.

We measure handspeed by BWChart, which calculates your ActionsPerMinute in a game. True - top pros have about 500 or so APM while a newbie has about 60. But one German player (Fisheye) managed to place second at World Cyber Games with an APM of less than 200.

Mouse speed matters none if you don't know what to click or where. Strategy makes up maybe 80% of the game; speed makes up the rest. It's like poker where lukc matters surprisingly little. Just as a bad poker player can't make any use of his luck, a bad starcraft player can't make use of his handspeed.

Re:Athletes

[Txiasaeia]

I'd like to second this. I'm actually living in South Korea and working as an English teacher, and the pros on the two gaming channels are absolutely *amazing*. For instance, I would have never thought to race three or four SRVs over to your enemy's base, along with a pack of marines, build a few supply depots & block the opponent in, then build a barracks and slowly fill up the opponent's base with marines. It's ridiculous how good these guys are, and it has more to do with strategy and tactics than it does with how fast they can mouse.

Does that mean that these cyber-athletes deserve to be rich and famous? No idea. But here, Starcraft is as valid a sport as soccer - and that's saying something.

Re:Athletes

[adam31]

TFA addresses your point:

For his part Mr. Lim cultivates a relatively low-key image. He knows that at 27 he is nearing the end of his window as an elite player... But he said experience could make up for a few milliseconds of lost reflexes.

"The faster you think, the faster you can move," he said. "And the faster you move, the more time you have to think. It does matter in that your finger movements can slow down as you age. But that's why I try harder and I work on the flexibility of my fingers more than other players."

So it appears to be a delicate balance between strategy and twitch, like any televised sport. It has to be slow enough for strategy to exist and a generally unskilled audience to appreciate. But fast enough that the intensity can draw viewers. The other TV qualification that I didn't see addressed is the "comeback factor" wherein a devious opponent can wrestle victory from the jaws of defeat, without relying wholly on luck.

Re:Athletes

[V Radcliffe]

"I just can't see myself watching it"

Allot of people say that here in the states, and I think that has more to do with presentation than game itself. No one has done it right to my knowledge (at least not in the US). We had that arcade game show on Nickelodeon (it wasn't too bad as a game show itself, but was far from a game centered around gaming), and Arena on G4 (which among other things edited the game play down too much for formating into the time slot, and had terrible commentators interrupting game play).

One of the key problems with bringing gaming to an audience is scope. Games aren't made with an audience in mind, but the vantage point of the player. For current games, the only real way to show the audience any real good picture of the game play is to show both sides simultaneously and a third perspective for the overall picture (which a spectator mode camera can easily accommodate, but would need to be trained to follow the action well). Dividing a TV screen isn't going to pan well with that for long periods of time, so the only real answer is live stream of the Internet, which isn't bad since the target audience would gladly welcome this medium over some premium cable network.

The best answer is to design a game with features to accommodate a larger audience, and not water down gameplay in the process. First of all, games have to be balanced out much better than they are. A lot of the games favored in tournaments are notorious for being severally unbalanced (any of the Namco fighting games, Capcom's Marvel vs. series to name a few). It isn't a particularity easy task, but not all together impossible (Virtua Fighter, Super Smash Bros, and Starcraft are good examples of well balanced games). Secondly, the game needs to have camera modes that takes away the player GUI, shows off the best angles for the stage or, follows the action, moves naturally, is non-repetitive, and overall gives the most entertaining angles for audience members on the fly. Lastly, whatever genre is chosen (real or turn based strategy, tournament fighting, first or third person shooter or even puzzle), the game has to be designed with the audience in mind. That doesn't have to mean watered down gameplay, but it does mean the game has to have presentable graphics, sound, and be interesting to get the audience pumping. There are a lot of sports out there that aren't action packed, but keep the audience enthralled with strategy and suspense (like golf), so this doesn't necessarily mean gore and fast paced action.

It'll take a completely different mindset to make people want to watch games, and I don't see that right now, but I'll put money down that when that right things comes around, no one would think they would have watched it when it hits big.

Re:Athletes

[cK-ruke]

Twitch based is the great self deception of would be first person shooter players. Reaction time is only part of the equation. Being able to react and reacting accurately are two very different things. Coordination and precision are just as important. Reacting as fast as you would like means nothing without the fine motor control to accomplish the finer tasks in gaming. Different people with different reflexes and coordination populate the gaming community and not all are capable of seeing high speed movement and making appropriate reactions. When someone says twitch based, I just shake my head, because as far as I can tell, they are watching a faster game than the game that I see. Like most competitions with physical qualities, that which truly seperates the best players from the next tier is the speed at which the best players are capable of performing the same tasks. Watch a college football game and then compare it to a high school football game. The change of tempo is obvious. Think of it like boxing, different players have different hand speeds, and different reaction times. Even considering all of that, the strategic side of FPS games is challenging, given that there are split seconds to make decisions in what is neccessary to do to win. In sum, you're watching too slow.

Re:Athletes

[KDR_11k]

One problem is that it's very difficult to get an overview of the action in most RTSes, the minimap doesn't tell you what is what and the game view will only show so much. One possible solution is to show the map along with manually added overlays that correspond to different units (e.g. a marker that says "15 marines plus two tanks") while zooming in on the interesting stuff when it happens.

The other is to play Spring which will soon enough feature symbols for the units (the engine does, the mods don't yet) that allow watching the map zoomed out and spotting what is what (sorry, I thought shameless opensource plugs are SOP on Slashdot :p).

Re:Athletes

[thinsoldier]

I still believe that UT 2004's Bombing Run and the Mod based on it, Death Ball, would have been great spectator sports. But the UT community never grew to enjoy playing them.

I once worked for a guy who played a lot of quake3 and on slow days in the office we'd set up a UT bot match with randomly switching cameras and just watch it all day instead of listening to the radio or turning on the tv.

Re:Athletes

[jandrese]

I have bad news for you, that player was just toying with you. Building that many SCVs and then transporting them by shuttle right into someone's base would have been suicide if the other player was modestly competent and had resources left. It's a fun strategy, but it was only viable because the other guy was really playing badly.

Re:Athletes

[PresidentEnder]

Like most competitions with physical qualities, that which truly seperates the best players from the next tier is the speed at which the best players are capable of performing the same tasks. Watch a college football game and then compare it to a high school football game. The change of tempo is obvious. Think of it like boxing, different players have different hand speeds, and different reaction times.

That's exactly my point. I didn't say that the game is invalid, or that it isn't strategy; I said that it isn't the same game my roommates and I play when we play starcraft over the dorm network. Not that strategy no longer matters at all, but no matter how good my strategy gets, my ~20 actions per minute cannot compare to the quoted "low" 200 actions per minute of that german guy.

Radio star?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, they did kill the radio stars...

Re:Radio star?

[plover]

That's so true, I used to play radio games all the time ...

... in my mind, and in my car ...

Re:Stop with the Games already!

[CRCulver]

How would that change the fact that the editors are not providing enough content in other areas?

Re:Excellent?

[grumpyman]

Yeah you can hide in the corner, blind-fold yourself and yell Beatles sucks, Elvis sucks, Bob Dylan sucks or whatever. You don't have to like any of those artists nor Starcraft. But you don't like it doesn't mean it sucks.

Games are transient

[Das Modell]

They've played Starcraft for a while now, but they'll stop playing eventually. They used to play Quake, but now they're playing something else, and soon they'll abandon that and play yet another new game. Compare this to chess or any of the physical sports that have been practised for centuries or millennia. Gaming is quite unlike any sport (that I can think of) because the "sport" keeps changing. It's like using tennis rackets but changing the rules and the playing area every few years. If you're competing with consoles, then even the controller keeps changing. Everything is completely transient. Can you think of a sport or similiar activity that is similiar to video gaming in this way? What about hardware and software settings - does everyone use the same gear and settings in tournaments? It's really amazing what kind of a difference your mouse can make.

Anyway, it's cool that people are competing in computer and video gaming, but I just can't take it seriously as a professional "sport" for some reason. I don't think there's really even any effort in video gaming. Anyone can do it. Those guys just sit on their asses twelve hours a day, play a video game and drink Coca-Cola. Kind of like every other hardcore gamer on the planet, but the only difference is that for some reason they're just a little better than others... with the current game, anyway. There just isn't any real effort involved. Think about how much effort someone needs to put into a sport like boxing. All the training, conditioning, repetition, injuries... if we compare video gaming with something like chess, I don't think it still qualifies. Chess is an ancient and well-established game, and being the best isn't quite as simple as being the best Counter-Strike player. It requires more effort, more intelligence, more talent, more training.

Re:Games are transient

[kfg]

Gaming is quite unlike any sport (that I can think of) because the "sport" keeps changing. It's like using tennis rackets but changing the rules and the playing area every few years.

Tennis didn't used to use rackets and was only played on an indoor court. That's why you'll find tennis often refered to as lawn tennis, to distinguish it from real tennis.

Today's Tour de France hardly bears a resemblence to the original; and auto racing not only changes the rules every season, but sometimes multiple times a season if it's felt necessary for safety/fairness.

Chess is an ancient and well-established game. . .

Whose rules were only "finalized" in the 19th century; although many variants exist; and are still being created.

Change happens.

KFG

Re:Games are transient

[Das Modell]

I know rules have changed in many sports, but it's nothing compared to how quickly video games are swapped for new ones. That's the whole point.

Re:Games are transient

[Das Modell]

Anyone can play football too, but that doesn't make them the best at it.

I'm going to make a wild guess that the difference between an enthusiastic but amateur football player and a professional football player is far greater than the difference between a hardcore gamer and a professional gamer. Gaming is too easy.

And don't you think playing a game or for that matter anything for 12 hours straight is a rather rigorous training in it self? So they get to drink soda while they play/train so what? They are still practicing and if you don't pratice you will get rusty.

I don't consider it training when I do a six hour WoW or CS:S session. It's fun, it's easy, it's effortless. That's quite unlike the mere 60-90 minutes I spend in boxing, Judo or at the gym.

Re:Games are transient

[abradsn]

Keep in mind that most people in Korea are black belts (at least) in Tae Kwon Do. The must like games too. I for one am glad to see them expand into more forms of entertainment and other areas of social activity.
Also, I for one welcome my Martial Arts Master Video Game Playing Overlords.

Re:Games are transient

[Das Modell]

I never claimed that you can suddenly become the best CS:S player ever by playing every now and then, nor did I claim that I'm the best CS:S player, nor did I claim that every hardcore gamer is equally good at CS:S.

Video gaming is just too easy. I know because I've played since I was six years old or something. There isn't enough effort involved, so I can't take video gaming as seriously as real sports.

Re:Games are transient

[MattyCobb]

I never claimed that you can suddenly become the best CS:S player ever by playing every now and then, nor did I claim that I'm the best CS:S player, nor did I claim that every hardcore gamer is equally good at CS:S.

Video gaming is just too easy. I know because I've played since I was six years old or something. There isn't enough effort involved, so I can't take video gaming as seriously as real sports.


While I agree with you for the most part I think you are mistaking effort with physical activity in a way. That said I do agree with you. I like to watch frag movies sometimes and I competed at two CPLs, but I never really considered it a sport, even then. It was just a hobby.

Re:Games are transient

[Thexare Blademoon]

Video gaming is just too easy. I know because I've played since I was six years old or something

Perhaps that's the reason you think it's too easy. I've been playing since I was four or five, so I have no trouble at all picking up a new game, but someone like my cousin Sarah who has very little video game experience just doesn't do very well. My mother's surprisingly good at Tetris and other puzzle games, since she's played them a lot, but she's terrible at Mario Kart and any boss fights in Zelda games. My stepfather's quite good at Halo and Doom, but he can't do shit in most of my other games. My parents only occasionally play games, and focus on specific types when they do play, and it shows, since they suck at any other games. I've played a lot of games, covering damn near every genre, and I'm consequently capable of picking up just about any game with relative ease.

Re:Games are transient

[ElleyKitten]

I've been gaming since I was a little kid, too. I frequently participate in local game tournaments, especially Super Smash Bros. I practice several hours a week, and I run through the single player modes on very hard like it's nothing, but I'm still pretty much shit at the tournaments. I will never take first place, no matter how much I practice. And you know what? The people who do take first place don't have shit on the professional players who place in the national and international tournaments, the kind of people who are "rockstars" in Korea.

Anyone can throw a football in their backyard. Anyone can knock off a few rounds in Smash Bros. or Counterstrike or whatever. Few people have the skills that take them into the professional leagues, that make them the best of the best.

Re:Games are transient

[sonicleads]

What about hardware and software settings - does everyone use the same gear and settings in tournaments? It's really amazing what kind of a difference your mouse can make.

I can't think of many sports where everyone uses the exact same equipment. Tennis players all have their own rackets, runners their own shoes, and so on.

Re:Games are transient

[Hao Wu]

I don't consider it training when I do a six hour WoW or CS:S session. It's fun, it's easy, it's effortless. That's quite unlike the mere 60-90 minutes I spend in boxing, Judo or at the gym.

You are well-suited. Young man who shows keen interest in boxing, Judo, or at the gym sport practice is surely headed upward on the steepest incline. Tremendous velocity no doubt. I believe in you.

Re:Games are transient

[Lars512]

I don't think there's really even any effort in video gaming. Anyone can do it. Those guys just sit on their asses twelve hours a day, play a video game and drink Coca-Cola. Kind of like every other hardcore gamer on the planet, but the only difference is that for some reason they're just a little better than others... with the current game, anyway. There just isn't any real effort involved.

I was once told by a lecturer that if you want to be world class at something, you need to spend at least three solid hours a day on it alone, as athletes might train. Given that everyday people spend this much time on a popular game, I imagine that to be world class you need to spend 5 to 8 hours or a day playing. It's probably not good enough anymore just to play, you need to train in a group with other like minded people, determine your weaknesses, and play through scenarios which aren't exactly fun, but which make you a better player. That is a lot of work. Competition gaming is different to playing for fun.

Think about how much effort someone needs to put into a sport like boxing. All the training, conditioning, repetition, injuries... if we compare video gaming with something like chess, I don't think it still qualifies. Chess is an ancient and well-established game, and being the best isn't quite as simple as being the best Counter-Strike player. It requires more effort, more intelligence, more talent, more training.

Unlike Chess, video gaming has real injuries. If you're twitch gaming for 8 hours a day, don't believe that RSI isn't coming your way. Unlike programming, you can't stand up and take a break and stretch your arms/shoulders/neck in the middle of a competitive multiplayer game. Agreed, current video games emphasise different player characteristics than chess. We're not comparing to chess though, we're comparing to sports, and there games fit the bill.

That said, I'd love to see some new games with the simple rules, high branching factor and emergent play styles. Basically modern competitors to Chess and Go. The problem is that the uptake is never high enough to warrant serious competitions. Then again, a mixed competition, where competitors play a variety of turn-based games? That would be cool!

Re:Games are transient

[dingDaShan]

GAMING IS A SPORT. It DOES require training and though the video game may change, this can be correlated to certain changes within sports too. Just as no single game in Basketball is the same as another, no two games of Starcraft are exactly alike. Yes, chess hasn't changed over the centuries, but chess is nearly unique in that regard. And you said it, twitch, reflexes, and arm control are all important aspects, making it a sport, albeit a sport that requires a low level of activity, but it can be compared to riflery or another similarly low activity sport. The fact is though, arguing whether or not it is a sport will not get us anywhere. It really comes down to this: IF YOU UNDERSTAND THE GAME BEING PLAYED AND IT'S INS AND OUTS, YOU WILL LIKELY FIND IT AT LEAST A LITTLE INTERESTING TO WATCH PEOPLE THAT ARE AMAZING AT IT. I can personally say that watching video games being played by normal people is somewhat boring, especially when I am at a friend's house or something. However, seeing people play that are amazing at a game is a different story. Those players are not just "a little better than others." They are A LOT better than others. In the article, it said that the guy trains every day for many hours to stay good at the game. It also said that he practises finger exercises to maintain dexterity. He works out to stay in shape, knowing that sharpness in the game requires physical health as well. Did you even read the article? Maybe to Americans, video games conjures up images of nerds stuck in their basements. In Korea they don't like to play alone, so they play at video game cafe's together. Yes, Starcraft may be the flavor of the decade and it will change, but when it does, the same players will likely switch to the next one, which will maybe be Starcraft II, whenever that comes out. The point is, the league promotes certain players as the elites, to create followings for these players and give face to these anonymous players. In this way, the league has stars and is a lot like American athletics. Additionally, when a professional gamer plays, it isn't just because they have a good mouse that they are good. These are people that play an rts game mostly using the keyboard. Their hands fly over the keyboard, utilizing every hotkey and function. These are not your normal hardcore gamers, they have physical and mental talent that sets themselves apart from other players. Next time do your homework

Re:Games are transient

[bitt3n]

you sound like you have only a vague notion of what is required to play starcraft or warcraft 3 at a high (or even medium-high) level. how are you gauging the level of effort/intelligence/talent/training necessary to play these games relative to chess or any other sport? The strategies, counters and openings in these games evolve, relative to the way they do in chess?

I imagine that were chess to have been invented in 1997, you would have dismissed it just as casually, on grounds just as suspect.

Re:Games are transient

[kfg]

NASCAR has rules?

Maybe not. I couldn't say, but then I don't think of NASCAR as auto racing. F1 is more what I had in mind, which yes, has a rule:

Whatever makes Bernie the most money.

KFG

Re:Games are transient

[Orcish_Rodent]

It starcraft went competitive about '99 so to their credit it has be 7 years of the same game now.

Re:Games are transient

[KDR_11k]

Yes, one:
No rocket launchers.

Which is too bad, their ratings would have gone through the roof without it.

Re:Games are transient

[KDR_11k]

Unlike Chess, video gaming has real injuries. If you're twitch gaming for 8 hours a day, don't believe that RSI isn't coming your way. Unlike programming, you can't stand up and take a break and stretch your arms/shoulders/neck in the middle of a competitive multiplayer game.

Of course with most games that are used in competitions you are doing something seriously wrong if a match lasts for 8 hours.

Re:Games are transient

[Lars512]

It's not so much matches that I was thinking about, more the training to get there.

Re:Games are transient

[brkello]

I totally disagree. Think of it this way: a sport is a genre, not a game. The people who were playing quake are now playing CS:S. Starcraft has had a lot of staying power...but when they makre another RTS that good, then that is where the players will move. Sports evolve as well. Hockey has changed dramatically in the past few years. 2-line passes, goalies only able to play a puck in limited areas behind the net, shoot out..all to give the game more of an offensive edge. Same thing in other pro sports...the game evolves using different equipment and changing rules as they see fit.

You are totally wrong that anyone can do video games. Will sitting down and playing a ton make you a better player? Of course it will. Will playing soccer all day make you a better soccer player? Of course. Does that mean you can be as good as Ronaldino? No! Same with video games, you can play as much as you want, you will always hit a peak. Some people will not only be physically faster than you...they will be smarter, more adaptive, etc. There is no difference. The best chess player in the world isn't going to be the best CS player. Their are infinitely more moves a CS player has than a chess player. Add on top of that you have to coordinate a team...chess looks like child's play. Really, the best chess players learn strategies and they have the ability to quickly figure out what possible moves a player can make. The more moves in the future they can predict and plany for, the better they are. A CS player has to know every match play map by heart. They must be able to coordinate the team to predict what the other team will do to give them the best chance of winning. They then have to have the twitch reflexes to actually kill their opponents before they are killed. I know chess players everywhere don't want to hear this...but chess is an extremely simple game compare ti Counterstrike. Just because video games are new, it doesn't mean it is inferior.

Re:Games are transient

[Swordsmanus]

I don't think there's really even any effort in video gaming. Anyone can do it. Those guys just sit on their asses twelve hours a day, play a video game and drink Coca-Cola. Kind of like every other hardcore gamer on the planet, but the only difference is that for some reason they're just a little better than others...

I'm glad you admit to not knowing the reason. Let me relieve you of your ignorance. That reason is that when playing they train instead of casually playing for fun. Just as professional atheletes play the game in such a way to improve themselves and spend time on things like strategy and specific techniques, so too do professional gamers. Professional gamers spend a great deal of time analyzing strategies and meta-game information like collision detection systems, frames of animation, damage per second, cost per attribute, etc.

There just isn't any real effort involved. Think about how much effort someone needs to put into a sport like boxing. All the training, conditioning, repetition, injuries...

As someone who has trained in various martial arts for 8 years and played videogames competitively, I've gotten injuries from both. Competitive gamers train and do repetitive actions too. And they have to deal with RSI-related injuries, eye strain, etc. Ironically due to an injury from martial arts on my right ulnar nerve, I now have to limit my gaming because I'm now more succeptible to RSI in that arm. And on a similar note, top gamers have to keep in shape because it adds just that little extra edge to their mental functioning, and generally the more you increase strength in a muscle group, the more control you gain over it. Very few top players are in average shape or worse.

if we compare video gaming with something like chess, I don't think it still qualifies. Chess is an ancient and well-established game, and being the best isn't quite as simple as being the best Counter-Strike player. It requires more effort, more intelligence, more talent, more training.

Both require effort, intelligence, talent, and training to be the best. They have different demands though, given the differences in game pace and that one is a team-based game, whereas the other is a one-on-one game. As for Starcraft...Achieving the actions-per-minute of the top Starcraft players requires a great deal of training, effort, concentration, and talent. Utilizing those actions per minute in a coherent way requires intelligence as well.

Your post smacks of uninformed commentary that is anything but insightful. If gaming is so easy to you, see about joining up in CAL-Open or any other low-level competitive gaming division, and see how often you'll have to scrim and practice to do well. See how much the way you look at the game changes. Or do it the easy way and get to know a player who is in Clan Complexity, Team Pandemic, or any of the other cross-game sponsored teams, and see how often they have to spend time scrimming, practicing, playing matches, talking strategy for future games and what went right/wrong in previous matches, testing in-game mechanics, etc. You'd be suprised at how much thought and practice goes into being at the top of any given competitive gaming division.

Re:Games are transient

[KDR_11k]

Yes but you can do stretches/exercise in between matches.

"Forward-Thinking"?

[Anonymous Coward]

The New York Times has up an article today looking at the phenomenon of videogame players treated like rockstars in the forward-thinking nation of South Korea.

An unhealthy obsession with video games by the South Korean youth is considered "forward-thinking"?

Re:"Forward-Thinking"?

[nihilistcanada]

As opposed to worshipping more traditional athletes elsewhere in the world? We put on pedestals people who are basically playing kids games. Take you pick, hockey, baseball, tennis, whatever. These people while talented contribute exactly the same thing to society as a bunch of Starcraft players. The Koreans appear to have found a new form of status to worship. We are not better, they have just picked a more advanced form of it.

Re:"Forward-Thinking"?

[EchoBinary]

Unhealthy in what sense? Is it any more or less unhealthy than a pro football player practicing to the point of injury so he can make top $ at his sport?
It's a market, just like any other. Just because it is nothing more than entertaining to the average lay person does not mean it is unhealthy or invalid. Other examples of officialy recognised sports that cause real physical damage are boxing and other full contact sports. Are those unhealthy too?

I think anything that causes personal life to become unmanegable is unhealthy. As for the rest, if they can be successful at it - more power to them. They have found a way to make money and get sponsorships playign video games then they have tapped a market that for many is a lifelong dream. Good for them I say.

Groupies

[Dwedit]

If South Korean gamers can get lots of hot groupies, maybe I should move there. Mmmmm... groupies.

Re:Groupies

[hmccabe]

Who said they were hot?

Re:Groupies

[Kankraka]

They're KOREAN! Mmmmm asians....

Re:Groupies

[drsquare]

Maybe the Chinese, Thai or Japanese, but not the Koreans. Unless you're into acne...

Advance Wars ?

[sam0ht]

Interesting point; perhaps, turn-based games like Civilisation and Advance Wars would be more suited to making tournaments that would be considered worth watching in the West?

So that is why...

[j. andrew rogers]

This certainly explains the plummeting birthrates in South Korea. So even if everyone is a gaming geek, they *still* don't get laid. Time for Plan B...

Re:Excellent?

[PlasticArmyMan]

Seeing as how it's an entirely opinion based system it could indeed suck ... for him. There is no correct opinion.

oOo!

[misey]

I'm moving. That's all I'm saying.

Re:oOo!

[/dev/trash]

Don't forget that North Korea is a mere missle launch away, and they may have the nukes.

Re:oOo!

[GimliGloin]

Don't forget that North Korea is a mere missle launch away, and they may have the nukes.

Maybe they should start playing "Missile Command" then?

GSG

Re:As a real athlete, I find this somewhat offensi

[kronsrepus]

Video games won't get you laid? Well if you're at the top level and have a mob of fans from playing games, your chances of getting laid increase somewhat dramatically.

Re:As a real athlete, I find this somewhat offensi

[FinchWorld]

*Get you in shape

*Teach you teamwork

*Teach you leadership

*Teach you commitment

*Get you laid

Apart from possibily the last point, a synchronised Dance Dance Revolution team would be doing this!

See, you're not just making a prat of yourself! Its a sport!

And if you loose the first point too you could point out CS or Guild Wars as well, and all the other games that are similar.

Re:As a real athlete, I find this somewhat offensi

[Mavric1337]

I'm a real athlete too, infact I just came from a fencing tornament today, and I find your broad insulting respons rather offensive my self. Your "get laid" remark aside (lets be honest thats just trolling) computer games can teach all of the things you just mentioned except get into shape because well that's just the nature of the game, pun intended I guess. For example I used to play competitivly in Tribes 2. We had a whole team, 16+ members, we had weekly practices, and we had a leader. Gee that sounds like teamwork, leadership, and commitment to me doesn't it? My point is there is nothing wrong with sports, or virtual sports. They both can foster the exact same "life skills" that your talking about, internet disconnect aside. Unless you purely value "Geting into shape" and "Getting Laid" as the only good qualities that you need in life, which I'm pretty sure some video game players have been able to do. Most of these Korean superstar players infact aren't horribly obease and I'm pretty sure being superstars they have no problem getting chicks.

Timelessness

[DreadPiratePizz]

If we look at baseball for example, it's a timeless sport. People did, do, and will continue to play the game. It's a part of our culture, the great american past time. It's going to be with us for a long time. But what about Starcraft? Can it last 100 years like baseball? Or will the crowd move on to the newest RTS or Starcraft 2, perhaps leaving these players out in the cold when their skills don't carry over? There will always be a great deal of people who would go to a baseball game. In 15 years, will there even be anybody still interested in Starcraft?

I think it's great that they are able to achieve fame, but they should enjoy it while it lasts, for they will never be as remembered as baseball legends, like Babe Ruth or Jackie Robinson.

Re:Timelessness

[Shadow99_1]

I'd argue that a video game itself does not equal a 'sport' like in real life, but instead a category does (more so if you think of indivual titles being like game rules for a certain era, baseball doens't have the same rules today as it did 100 years ago after all)... So the question should be: Will RTS's be popular in 100 years? & I think the answer will be: As much as baseball is still popular today it will be.

Baseball (at least in the US) is on a fairly steady decline... The last decade has seen many stories discussing it, so I don't think it's a very valid comparison in general... After all the figures say that baseball has a good chance to become a nitch sport again, rather than a game 'There will always be a great deal of people who would go to".

Re:Timelessness

[sh4na]

for they will never be as remembered as baseball legends, like Babe Ruth or Jackie Robinson.

Who?

Re:Timelessness

[cloudmaster]

The phrase is "pass time", but perhaps "past time" is more appropriate in context. As in, right around the third or fourth inning, "isn't is past time for this monotonous, appealing more from a social aspect than one of entertainment, only surpassed by golf's slow pace game to be over?"

Besides, most kids would tell you that Babe Ruth is a candy bar and Jackie Robinson was some lady - probably a track and field athlete.

Getting in shape...

[Hahnsoo]

It's certainly a different "world" in Korea. I'd just like to interject that the video game "stars" over there do keep in physical shape. They train extensively not only on the keyboard, but also go through physical training. In team games, the top Korean teams train in light calisthenics and do extensive team drills both in-game and in sports. The feeling is that the mind and the body must be in top shape in order to perform professionally at the highest levels. Couch potatoes need not apply.

Re:As a real athlete, I find this somewhat offensi

[hotdiggitydawg]

My experience of gaming is that it actually teaches you a huge amount about teamwork and leadership. Some of the better FPS Clans rely on both of those extensively in fact - well-drilled clan fireteams operates in very similar fashion to a military (or at least professional paintball) platoon (eg. fire-and-movement principle, etc.). And if you'd ever tried running a clan, well you'd know all about the leadership it demands.

Get in shape however - very true, gaming hinders your fitness, bigtime. Commitment? Well, there is commitment of sorts, but perhaps not in the same frame of reference as sport. As for getting laid - I think in South Korea there's probably no shortage of groupies, but elsewhere I daresay you're right... although your improved grip strength from all that mousing may prove useful in the interim ;-)

Disclaimer: I've represented my country in sport. I've also played in FPS clans extensively in national comps.

Re:As a real athlete, I find this somewhat offensi

[level99]

You know, I understand where you are going, but you are wrong on some of those bullet points.

1. Shape

True. Sitting on your ass, doesn't get you in shape. Unless you count "large behind" as a shape. ;-)


2. Teamwork

Actually, that depends. For a 1on1 FPS game like Quake (insert number here) or a RTS game like Starcraft, that might be true. For a team-oriented gamer like Counter-Strike that is not true, quite the opposite. 5 players HAVE to work together, otherwise they will get raped by the other team. Most of these teams practice 6-8 hours a day, 4-5 days a week. They are often spread out over vast distances, and only communicates thru a VoIP program (like Ventrilo). Take my word for it, that teaches them a lot of teamwork. If anyone fucks up while they're playing, they all get punished (by losing the round or the match). They can't see eachothers facial expressions or bodylanguage, so it can be really hard to understand humour and passing remarks. They learn teamwork - and under hard conditions.


3. Leadership

Yeah, I guess you have a point there. Some of these guys learn to motivate and give commands, but thats usually 1 out of 5 players on a team. He usually gets quite good at it tho.


4. 6-8 hours a day. 4-5 days a week. Playing online. From remote locations. Thats commitment. It might not be the same kind of commitment you see in the gym or on the track, but its commitment.


5. Get laid

You would be REALLY amazed by the gaming culture these guys live in. I was something of a celebrity myself in my local gaming community a few years back, a manager of the top team in that country, and the editor-in-chief of the biggest community site for these players. I saw more action doing that, than I did while I was DJ'ing popular nightclubs back when I was fresh out of school. Every culture has their groupies, this is no exception. While you probably couldn't pick up women at a bar by boasting about your gamign skills, you can definitely pick them up from within the community just by being celeb-like. Nothing to be proud of, just saying it happened. And as most slashdotters would probably agree, once we can approach women by text, we have fairly good chances of coming of as intelligent funny people. Simply a lot easier steer conversations in the right directions, and you dont have to worry too much about being shy (or her being shy). These people are the last frontier of IRC networks, and the girls/groupies/female gamers are there as well.

Re:As a real athlete, I find this somewhat offensi

[Shadow99_1]

Except for point A certain games actually can do the other points (the last however mostly in other countries, at least since arcades died here in the US). So I don't see the complaint your making as very valid...

Teamwork, leadership, and commitment: I used to be part of a team that played CS and these were all big points for everyone in that team... Why? Because we played in a league and wanted to prove we were as good if not better than others. If you don't work together you die (there are some rare exceptions, but...), If you have no leadership you die (again with a few rare exceptions), If you lack commitment to developing your skills together you lack both teamwork and leadership and suffer the fates already listed.

Go (much like chess) is played in an almost solitary manner, so that btw makes a very bad example... You need one other person and a few years back online Go took huge strides because it solved the lack of available players... much as it does for most other games... In fact most such games all suffer a lack of points 2-5, & normally 6 as well...

I hate sports because people make such a big stink over it... I'm expected to worship the 'sports gods' like every other know nothing... I hated them in high school, I still hate them today... I couldn't care less who wins the next football game in my area... I couldn't care less what games are even 'in season'... I seriously doubt I'll ever care...

Re:As a real athlete, I find this somewhat offensi

[/dev/trash]

Yeah for the 1% that make it. Do you know how many D-1 athletes are just glorified burger flippers now?

Possible song parody

[Tetrad_of_doom]

"Obesity Killed the Videogame Star"

Re:No, parent was right.

[grumpyman]

Your comparison breaks down because The Beatles had talent, Bob Dylan has talent, Elvis had talent, so someone saying "Bob Dylan sucks" is perhaps trying to incite something, maybe they are simply a blowhard about what they like/dislike, or whatever but that does not remove the talent these artists have. Starcraft on the other hand just plain sucks.

This is the exact point there - you are exactly trying to incite something with absolutely no justification for your argument. At least you point out why the artists mentioned don't suck. "Yeah it fucking sucks" or "It just plain sucks" doesn't mean a whole lot. And commenting as anonymous makes the argument worth even less.

Research Paper

[RKo618]

I actually wrote a research paper on this last year. There is actually a surprising amount of academic papers written on this subject along with the World of Warcraft phenomenon.

even Hasslehoff is a rock star somewhere

[grapeape]

"Idol" obsession is nothing new in that part of the world. When I lived there it was nutty the people and things that would suddenly become popular, but its really fleeting...think Andy Warhol's definition and halve that. If someone made a tv show about accountants you can be sure that the day after the first show there would be a fan club. Professional gaming is gaining popularity but you can bet that the worlds best frisbee golfer will make the cover of sports Illustrated before some deathmatch winner will. Remember this is the country where people die from sleep deprivation and starvation from playing games...its a totally different culture.

Maybe when the US gets decent broadband...

[Infonaut]

we'll get to be as forward-thinking as the South Koreans. Don't hold your breath on that one.

Pass the chips, Payton Manning is playing!

Re:As a real athlete, I find this somewhat offensi

[Tablizer]

but there are some things playing a real sport will do that videogames won't....Get you laid

But that's why e-porn was invented at the same time.

athletes kill the fun.

[Tei]

I disagree with you. Is not sport becuause has not been played for eons? HAHA. Bah.

Hee... I want to say that:

  People that play games like athletes ruin the fun for everyone else. The way these poeple play kill all the dumbed down casual fun around. Gamming become something stressing, about perfection, fast reflex and the ladder, who is better than XYZ. That competitiviness can be cool for some teenagers, I guest, teenagers are already competitive, but for normal people is somewhat disgusting.

About this slashdot news. Let me download one!, Where I can watch that sport?.

Re:athletes kill the fun.

[Sigma 7]

People that play games like athletes ruin the fun for everyone else. The way these poeple play kill all the dumbed down casual fun around.

Some games have already started to solve that problem. For example, Age of Mythology tries to match players with equal skill levels, and assigns a slight handicap if there is no equal-skill matching available.

A more obvious example would be Sin Episodes, where you have visible results of the difficulty level being adjusted on the fly. The only difference is this is single player, but it's not too much of a jump to configure multiplayer to do something similar (i.e. increase the starting spawn loadout of weaker players.)

Re:Forward thinking nation???

[Tablizer]

You might be better at playing Starcraft, running with a football, or acting in a movie, but that doesn't make you a better person.

But most would rather be an ahole who can win than an ahole who can't.

It depends.

[Krytical]

There are many games that improve your teamwork and leadership skills. Just like there are many solo sports which don't enhance those skills. I guess the article used "forward thinking" as a synonym of open mindness.

Re:As a real athlete, I find this somewhat offensi

[Frogbert]

*Get you in shape DDR - Check! *Teach you teamwork DDR - Check! *Teach you leadership DDR - Check! *Teach you commitment DDR - Check! *Get you laid ... Damn

Sad times indeed

[Asrynachs]

I think North Korea has the right idea with the nuclear weapons program.

Re:Sad times indeed

[xenocide2]

But as recent tests showed, they need better technology for their Ghosts guiding in the nukes.

Re:As a real athlete, I find this somewhat offensi

[Bhasin_N]

Sorry, I have gamed at what passes for national level in my country, (misreably as it is) and I have learnt so much about teamwork, leadership, focus, strategy, dedication, that I had to respond. Nethack,morrowind,god of war - yes these games probably don't teach any of those things. But if you have ever tried, or even watched competition level gamers, you would never type those sentences. Teamwork, Leadership (cannot overemphasize that), strategy, dedication, practice for nearly 10 hours a day, these are required in abundances to be a top player or team for Counter Strike, Starcraft and Warcraft. I Garauntee, from personal experience, that playing a team oriented video game very quickly teaches you - what else? - to play in a team. It's so effective that it has been used by corproations to teach their employees! (Sorry I don't have the link and cant be bothered to find it right now.) If you read the article, you'd know that those players definitely have what it takes when it comes to commitment. They dedicate more hours than most people could stay awake, performing an incredibly taxing task. On Getting laid, if your a top player in korea, apparently you will get laid. If your a top player almost anywhere else then yes, your going to have to either get lucky or dedicate yourself to learning how. My personal opinion is that its not the game, as much as it is the player. I learnt from video games, as that is the arena I am able to apply myself in. Yours has been physical sports. There are other people who have not learnt all the same lessons from gaming as I have. Just as everyone has not learnt the same lessons from playing sports as you have. I got a chance to lead teams because I was good enough in other peopls eyes that they may have deigned to listen to me. But after that, people would listen because I was good at knowing what to do. I would never have gotten that chance if I took up a sport. Being bigger and having more muscles counts more than being fast and agile mentally. (not that its not as important in sports)I may be a brilliant leader- but who in their right mind is going to give you a chance to prove it if you cant even throw a ball properly? Anyone who competes at a high level has to learn those things, anyone who has a chance to compete has a chance to learn them. It dosent matter whether its a physical sport, or a virtual one.

As an intellectual I find you somewhat offensive

[definate]

Well lets see, gaming does teach you...
Teamwork... especially since the more popular ones are multi-player
Leadership... see above comment
Commitment... it is very hard to get to the level of professional gamers
Get you laid... did you actually read TFA?

Basically you need to understand that America != Korea

In fact Professional Gaming is identical to our Western Gaming in that it becomes more about reflex and stamina, the only other differences are in culture however if you compare the Korean Pro Gaming culture to the American Athletic Gaming culture, you'll probably find that they are extremely similar, especially if you had RTFA!

the fact is that varsity collegiate athletes make more money than non-athletes after they graduate college

That is an excellent arbitrary non-factual fact you have there... proof?

it's the only way to achieve grace

Oh well, I guess I'll just have to live without grace. What ever shall I do?

Re:Forward thinking nation???

[KingJackaL]

"You might be better at playing Starcraft, running with a football, or acting in a movie, but that doesn't make you a better person."

Assuming all other things equal - surely that actually WOULD make you a better person...

Re:Forward thinking nation???

[dingDaShan]

Yes, people worship so called "stars" for "stupid" reasons. What criteria do you propose for role models? Oh wait, that would be your own subjective opinion and nothing more. The fact is, everybody's opinion is equally valuable (which is my opinion), and if people choose to think stars are great and do everything they say, then that is their right.

As a old school gamer in shape...you are overrated

[LinDVD]

Love your ethnocentric viewpoint.

In the pure form, the only legitimate points you have is "get you in shape" and "get you laid." Video games, many, will teach teamwork, leadership, commitment. Teamwork, leadership and commitment can be found in everything from America's Army to True Combat Elite, to Warcraft 3/TFT/WOW among countless other games.

If teamwork was to mean, "play with others", leadership was to mean "lead by example" and commitment to mean "dedication" then even some of the oldest titles such as Atari's Warlords would qualify for that.

Re:As an intellectual I find you somewhat offensiv

[pHatidic]

>That is an excellent arbitrary non-factual fact you have there... proof?

If you read The Game of Life, it's in there. Or I'd imagine you could just search JSTOR for studies on future earnings potential of athletes.

I remember when

[CrazyJim1]

I remember when no korean gamer could beat me more than one time in ten in Starcraft. Then maphack came out and ruined the game.

Re:As a real athlete, I find this somewhat offensi

[cliath]

Some of the best gamers in the US (and I'm sure other countries) work out because it helps them perform better in their game.

this makes sense

[briancnorton]

It really does. More people in korea play video games than play soccer. These "rockstar" gamers were ordinary people that had a talent. I can't go play football with Peyton Manning, and if I did, I would get creamed. I CAN go play quake with these guys, and be (a little bit) competitive. I can talk to them online, I can make friends with them online. This makes more sense than worshipping a soccer player that doesn't realize (or care that) you exist.

Re:this makes sense

[MaWeiTao]

I don't think most gamers could play these guys and be even the slightest bit competitive. In the end it likely wouldn't be all that different than trying to play football with a professional footballer.

Furthermore, I don't think these guys care in the least bit to talk to the average guy. Doubtless, there are exceptions but the celebrity mentality inevitably changes everything.

Re:Research Papers???

[Oligonicella]

A very sorry comment on the subject of research papers, I'd say.

Nuclear Test Detected!

[Dareth]

They play Starcraft to keep in practice to defend against the Terran ( North Korean ) Nuclear attack. I hope the DMZ has some good turrets and a some science vessels searching for them NK ghost.

Timeless? Give me a break.

[jotaeleemeese]

I did not exist 150 years ago, it may not exist in 100 more.

South Korea's who?

[jotaeleemeese]

I will not even try to google for Derek Jeters and Peyton Mannings. I have no idea who they are and I do not wish to know.

But I can say with confidence that most people in the US (and South Korea) will know nothing about Andy Flintoff, Jonah Lomu, Manuel Laureano Rodríguez Sánchez.

Each country have different sets of sporting heroes, I don't see why the activities that capture the imagination of people in one place should be the same in other places.

Bar football and the name Pele, I think there are no universal personalities in the world of sport.

Re:South Korea's who?

[Richard Steiner]

Some of us only found out about Pele because he played for the New York Cosmos in the old NASL. :-)

Setting the VCR = "Computer Programmer"???

[SpecialAgentXXX]

I agree with you. Sadly, you got marked down as a troll.

Look at what the ancients called "Athletics": the Olympics - physical strength and endurance. The athletes bodies' were strong, conditioned, and healthy. You can't be an athlete and be unhealthy. Fat, sedentary, heart disease, etc. are not qualities of an athlete. Look at a basketball, hockey, soccer, or football player (other than the linemen). You know those are athletes and their bodies are conditioned. Compare that to these "athletes" who mash controllers, keyboards, and mice.

Sure, the video-game players are good at what they do. I'm not knocking them. But stop calling yourselves "athletes." That's like calling your average Joe a "computer programmer" because he knows how to set his VCR. Wouldn't you, a programmer (C/C++, Java, .NET, PHP, etc.) be a bit offended if your neighborhood TV/VCR repairman kept advertising himself as a "computer programmer?"

At my house

[Some_Llama]

It is required that while I play CS my family stands behind me in a hightened state of anticipation, when i win a round they all must cheer.. when i do happen to be shot and die and must wait for the next round, my wife will rub my shoulders and coo praise and "reasons" for my loss (they are definitely cheating, your hit didn't register, stupid server, etc) while my children refill my glass of redbull, wipe down my keyboard and or mouse from sweaty palms and re-arrange my chair height, fluff my seat cushion, etc.. like a well trained pit crew.

So I can relate...

(*note, some or all of this behind the scenes look is partialy or completely in my dreams, release of these dreams to my wife will most likely result in additional ridicule)

Starcraft League 2007

[marcavis]

This looks interesting... I`m just waiting for EA to release a game based on this sport! Bet it would be a hit in South Korea!

Re:As a real athlete, I find this somewhat offensi

[thinsoldier]

Before you read this strip these words from your mind:
sport, game, nerd, athlete

ok.

If you're in shape.
If most people like you because you're a good team player
If you stand out among your crew because you're obviously the take charge, organized, glue that holds everbody together, Leader.
If in your day to day life you do/say things here and there that indicate you are capable of "commitment"

Add all those traits together (who cares how you got them) and your chances of getting laid increase by 75%

Re:As a real athlete, I find this somewhat offensi

[Bloke down the pub]

I think pHatidic meant with a girl.