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Blu-ray's Hardware Woes Stacking Up
An anonymous reader writes "The bad news just keeps on coming for Blu-ray. First, Sony halved its U.S./Japanese launch shipments of its Blu-ray powered PlayStation 3, blaming a shortage of blue lasers. Then, in the last two weeks, both Sony and Pioneer delayed the releases of their new Blu-ray players, refusing to cite reasons. And this week, at Blu-ray backer LG's annual dealer show, a previously announced LG Blu-ray player was nowhere to be found. LG product development director Tim Alessi had this to say: 'We will provide an announcement when the time is right.'"
The difference between the PS2's DVD drive and the PS3's Blu-Ray drive is that when the PS2 was released DVD players had been on the market for a full 3 years.
I could be wrong, but it seems like including Blu-Ray may be the biggest mistake that Sony made on the PS3; it will increase the cost of the PS3, reduce the supply, and has so little content for it that it probably will not increase sales. If the PS3 was to be released in Q4 of 2008 Blu-Ray would have probably been an amazing addition, but in Q4 of 2006 it seems like a massive disaster.
Better yet, don't announce it until you can really make it.
Sony hasn't learned anything. They are not using a "it won't get to market until it is done" approach here because they are gentlemen.
What is happening, is that Sony is suffering from their long-time habit of announcing products that are FAR from being complete. In the past they have been able to produce the product (with features removed) for th launch date. But this time they've finally been bitten in the butt, and they just can't do it.
In my mind, Sony is the WORST of the 'announce it just to hurt your competitor' companies out there. Maybe this fiasco will get them to change their ways.
No reason to lie.
I hardly think that a few delayed drives are much of a woe for Blu-Ray. And the fact that the Playstation won't be arriving initially in as many units isn't too much of a problem.
HDDVD has had delayed drives as well.
I mean, I hate Sony as much as the next person, but this is really a non-story. I really hope Blu-Ray fails, but I not running around making up shit to help it on its way, and if I did, it would be better than this.
At Office Depot, or was that OfficeMax, of all places. I still haven't seen a retail BD-R or HD-DVDR drive in the flesh though.
like the xbox 360. The fan noise from CPU/GPU cooling are nothing compared to the DVD drive. Whenever I put in a game, the spinning noise of the disc is unbearable. It doesn't even spin down but keeps on running at full speed until i exit the game. Only when the drive stops, can I hear the fan "noise".
So, if the PS3 (the versions that hit the stores, not the showroom ones) makes less noise than the xbox, I will be throwing that in the trash.
Capitalism: When it uses the carrot, it's called democracy. When it uses the stick, it's called fascism.
I think the manufacturers are all using the upcoming holiday shopping season as leverage to jack up the prices of the few 'precious' blu-ray players that will be 'available'. Reminds me of that retarded Elmo toy craze that went on a few years ago. I expect ebay to be ball-deep in $1000+ blu-ray players, etc. and then they will announce the new technology they developed that will obsolete the blu-ray in 6 months.
Hope this is the beginning of the end for Blu-Ray. Not that I wish Sony any malice, (despite all their bad press, I still like most of their products) I just want there to be a single HD standard. If one of them has to die a cruel death, well, that's the industry. Let's hope it is a quick death spasm.
Raging in an online forum won't do anything for the world around you. To see change, you must take action.
Until they sort this thing our, I'm going to sit on the sidelines waiting for a format to emerge as the real winner.
www.jmagar.com
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The Cheat Commandos have it covered.
This is the NFL, which stands for "Not For Long" if you keep making those bulls*** calls.
I think the most ominous part of the article is the last part, where LG will "be making a statement when the time is right." I'm not a gambling man, but a statement like that would make me bet that LG is about to pull its support for Blu-Ray. That could be a HUGE blow to the movement.
Raging in an online forum won't do anything for the world around you. To see change, you must take action.
Step 1 doesn't work. Where are you going to get a PS3?
the more they over-think the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the pipe
The delay is likely related to their impending announcement of the new Cash-Ray, using a green laser. I hear that green is a more useful color as a backdrop for creating imaginary realities...
What do you mean "retarded Elmo toy craze that went on a few years ago"?!?!? Didn't you hear that one started all over again? I forget what this new Elmo is(ElmoTX or something like that?) but Elmo's back and he's taking Cambodia by storm...no wait..that's Rambo IV...well Elmo *is* back even if I can't remember what it's about.
0x09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
First, this article was released in September! This is not new.
I would lean to them thinning the market, for Christmas. It makes the demand go up and causes a frenzy of buyers looking for it. As well as news about how the hot Christmas item, the PS3, is in short supply. Many reviews from writers wanting to cover the new items and not look like they are behind, etc.
It is a marketing ploy and old news.
From what I hear, the lesson is to run your format and cost projections past the porn industry... then go with what they decide.
I read sometime around June that Sony et al were having problems with dual layer discs, in that they couldn't get any of the production model Blu-ray players to read dual layer discs.
Has that been solved? Is that the reason for the delay? I am not trying to spread FUD, but other than a quick blurb four months ago I've heard nothing else about the problem.
The Toshiba HD-DVD player works today at 1/3rd the price of the Samsung unit. Initial picture quality of early releases makes evident the better quality of the BluRay titles. BluRay rushed their product to market in order to cling to market share; in doing so, they used the old MPEG2 codec, which compresses images horribly. The primary reason for this: they did not have dual-layer capability working at time of release, so they needed to compress the image to fit on their single-layer releases. They apparently have dual layer working and have switched to the Microsoft codec. Reviewes of these discs have been far more favorable.
You still have to wonder about the cost. The Samsung player is $1K, you can get the Toshiba unit for $399. Soon, the Xbox 360 drive will be available at $200 for those that have a 360.
The only thing Sony has going for it: PS3 launch and the fact they are a movie distribution company. Sony has been pretty big-headed lately thinking that of course consumers will pay for a mere $600 for a game console, of course they will use our BluRay format, of course we can put a "rootkit" on a PC. We are Sony, why can't we do it?
$ony
Uh oh. Meme alert.
At the Elmo factory every Elmo gets tickled as a final test before shipping. Girl Elmos get tickled once and the boy Elmos get two test tickles.
both use 405 nm lasers, and the shortage of blue lasers means production is affected for both camps. The article certainly seems to be an attempt to spin this shortage in HD-DVD's favor, no mention of delays in those devices.
Much of the delay for Blu-Ray players is because Sony, one of the few manufacturers of these lasers, is keeping production for the PS3. Other Blu-Ray manufacturers are stuck without lasers.
I don't see anything to indicate that this will benefit the HD-DVD camp - they've got laser shortages, too. It's only a matter of Blu-ray player availability being heavily weighted toward the PS3.
If anything, this may favor the Blu-ray camp - HD-DVD players are priced around US$500, and you'll be able to get a Blu-ray player (the PS3) for about the same price, and get an advanced game system as a free part of the deal.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Check the date stamp on that article. It's from September. This is not relevant to currently announced launch numbers.
Personally, I'm hoping that both HD-DVD and BluRay have absoloute ABYSMAL distribution and customer acceptance.
Then, maybe, these companies can go back and design a more consumer-friendly medium that people can actually buy and use without worrying that they're going to get their legs busted because they didn't pay their protection money to the various **AA for the right to look and listen THIS week. Oh, and for the tech geek in me, one that really DOES offer significantly better image quality.
Right now, the VQ difference between DVD of, say, SuperBit quality, and an HD-DVD is negligible on a completely HD-ready/compliant/functioning system, and completely NOT worth the price premium.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
OR Sony could have just not tried to rape the general public for once with a proprietary Sony standard, and supported HD-DVD, thus having all the major players backing one media.
It would have been better for the consumers, better for the 3rd party manufacturers. We have yet to see if it would have been better for Sony ornot, but I firmly believe they are going to regret the whole Blu-ray fiasco.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHgaaaaaaspHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHA
Well executed.
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If you've got product shortages, it makes a lot more sense to reserve as many units as you can for the PS3 (a device that will sell well) at the expense of stand-alone players, which aren't selling well at all.
How to Win Friends and Influence People
First, Sony halved its U.S./Japanese launch shipments of its Blu-ray powered PlayStation 3, blaming a shortage of blue lasers.
Curse those Cheat Commandos...
Technically, he replaced 'S' with '$'.
:(){
I wouldn't be so keen on hoping for failure. That's what happened to SVHS and look what it got us: Stuck with inferior VHS tapes for years longer than we should have while the industry cooked up something that they thought was even more restrictive (we got lucky with DVDs having lousy encryption).
I read the internet for the articles.
I don't think you know what you're talking about. I mean, your description of what sony is doing is correct but I think your analysis of why they are doing it is way off.
You say "Sony hasn't learned anything". I say you're insane. They learned a lot. They learned that when they announced the PS2 over a year in advance with completely bullshit specs, two things happened. One, their most important competition was destroyed, their wells poisoned, and their ground sown with salt. Two, shitloads of people bought the PS2 anyway even though it was maybe 10% as powerful as they claimed it would be.
Sony knows exactly what they are doing. The sad thing is that consumers are such sheep that it will probably work again, simply because they're doing it in a slightly different space in the market.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
You're right. That is exactly why they do what they have been doing all along. It destroyed the Dreamcast, and they are hoping to do the same to the Xbox and Wii.
But this time it may have backfired. Or at least I hope it did.
No reason to lie.
I am going to watch this unfold with distanced curiosity. I wouldn't pay $600 for a console system, but I really wouldn't buy one from Sony. Sony keeps shooting holes in their ship and they don't even realize it. They lost sight of what is really important a long time ago, the customer. I don't want Sony to go out of business, but I do think they are circling the drain with poor decisions followed by poor choices.
Your statement makes no sense at all. The dual layer'd disc would hold more data then a single layer. The new codec based on MPEG 4 (VC4? used in hd-dvd's) requires less capacity then mpeg2 which was used in blu-ray discs.
Hmmm... Pie...
Sony is staking everything on the Blu-ray. If the format doesn't take off through means other than just video games, it will fail. Movie companies will stop producing Blu-Ray movies, and game manufacturers will opt for the cheaper formats on the Wii and 360 to increase their profit margins.
Blu-ray has increased the cost of the PS3. If PS3 game sales don't make enough money soon enough, Blu-Ray will fail. The dominoes will continue to fall, as game manufacturers will stop producing for Sony. Finally, the PS3 will implode and be this generation's Sega or Atari.
So yeah, Sony better hope that Blu-ray works...
hmmm, 1080p 72" porn....
Notice the part where I said "consumer friendly".
I figure, if TPTB continue making stuff that isn't really consumer friendly, the consumer really should stop consuming the crap they're being shoveled.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
This is all a calculated risk. If they are "too early" it falls flat and the only thing out on the market that is really a Bluray player is the PS3. If they aren't, then they make out bandits being the top of the new wave of "next generation" of home media. It shouldn't surprise *anyone* that a buisness is taking on risks in the hopes of future profits because this is what buisness and entrepreneurish is about.
Beyond all of this, Sony has a history of doing this in their engineering. They come up with a new product where they can't find the technology needed to complete the product so they invent it. Sony thinks there is a need for a "next gen disk" system and once again to no one's surprise they create a system themselves. If something was established they would have gone with it but history has shown time and time again that if their isn't Sony is far more likely to create something from scratch. The trick is that although it gets the product out the door but doesn't mean anyone else will use it.
In other words, is it a problem that Sony takes a huge risk introducing what could be a next gen format? Heck no. In fact I wouldn't have it any other way because this is how market capitalism works. I'm pretty cool to supporting Sony but this is one facet of Sony I do give props too.
I'm not only hoping that, I also believe that will be the case. The current DVD format is all I need, and if it wasn't for the MPAA imposed restrictions, they would be doing 720P instead of 480. Both new formats were concocted mainly to introduce new copy protections that they could not re-engineer into the existing DVD format, both of which will DISABLE the device if it THINKS the disk is not a real original. This will require an expensive repair to re-enable the device! And every time they manage to 'upgrade' the protection scheme, the disks released with that scheme enabled will flash your device with new firmware to enable that scheme on your device. That may also crash or disable some devices if it misreads your old firmware, or if you turn it off during the flash not aware of what is happening. We may buy a PS3 for the gaming aspect, but we will NOT be buying an HD standalone of either type, or any movie disks of either type. Ron ------------------- Attention deficit disorder is a complicated issue, spanning several major... HEY LET'S GO RIDE BIKES! I didn't steal YOUR sig, I borrowed EVERYONE'S!
I'm not only hoping that, I also believe that will be the case.
The current DVD format is all I need, and if it wasn't for the MPAA imposed restrictions, they would be doing 720P instead of 480.
Both new formats were concocted mainly to introduce new copy protections that they could not re-engineer into the existing DVD format, both of which will DISABLE the device if it THINKS the disk is not a real original. This will require an expensive repair to re-enable the device! And every time they manage to 'upgrade' the protection scheme, the disks released with that scheme enabled will flash your device with new firmware to enable that scheme on your device. That may also crash or disable some devices if it misreads your old firmware, or if you turn it off during the flash not aware of what is happening.
We may buy a PS3 for the gaming aspect, but we will NOT be buying an HD standalone of either type, or any movie disks of either type.
Ron
*********
Attention deficit disorder is a complicated issue, spanning several major... HEY LET'S GO RIDE BIKES!
I didn't steal YOUR sig, I borrowed EVERYONE'S!
Software is killing the release dates on this. Has anyone who said "shortage of blue lasers" actually seen the BD spec? All 4000 pages of it? BD-J is the single biggest thorn in this project. The maze of extensions and native interfaces required to make that work continue to plague engineers.
Everything the HDMV runtime does has to be replicated by the BD-J runtime, like 2 products in one. Furthermore, you just can't do everything BD-J needs to do in pure Java. As they learned more about the BD-J spec and what the 300Mhz CPU could do, it's become more like a trans-gaming emulator with most functions done natively. Now every memory allocation, graphics blit, networking function has to be done once in Java and again natively.
Studio executives tell us consumers are going to put down their Wii's, XBox 360's, and PS3's to play games in BD-J instead. They won't release BD titles unless the BD-J runtime is able to run their titles perfectly, and that means missed deadlines.
BD hardware, Home Networking, HDMV, DVD: DONE
BD-J: good luck
So, let's see:
We have an obvious winner!
I think we should start calling it BetaRay, as it looks like Sony is fumbling yet another proprietary audio/video storage medium.
Arguing about vi versus Emacs is like arguing whether it's better to make fire by rubbing sticks or banging rocks.
As someone that went out and bought one the very first day (I have the original from years back) I can tell you it's worth every penny. I've never seen so many adults laugh so hard at something inanimate.
Oh, by the way, it's TMX, which stands for Tickle Me 10 as it has been 10 yrs since the original was launched.
I am Homer of Borg. Resistance is Fut.. Mmmmmmmm, Donuts!
The benefit of having a high capacity drive is a smart decision from a technological perspective. With more powerful systems and more information required for games, having a high capacity format makes absolute sense.
...just more information for next-generation games.
First of all, the extra capacity allows for more textures, more information, cutscenes,
Second, the drive speed can be relatively low and still be able to read more information than a normal DVD. This is the reason why the Xbox 360's DVD drive is so loud - it's because it's spinning so fast. The reason it spins so fast is because it has to read so much information from the DVD. Also since it spins so fast, the disc gets scratched if tilted while running. The PS3 on the other hand, can get away with a lower drive speed and still read as much information as the XBox 360.
If Microsoft included HDDVD and Linux capability on the XBox 360 like Sony did for the PS3, I'd already have an XBox 360 by now.
I tell you, it's those damn Cheat Commandos, they keep foiling our plans!
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
I don't think the issue is so much about how much support they have as it is about how much opposition they have:
HD-DVD support:
Canon Inc.
Digital Theater Systems
Hitachi Maxell, Ltd.
Kenwood Corporation
Mitsubishi Kagaku Media Co., Ltd.
NEC Corporation
Onkyo Corporation
Paramount Home Entertainment
Sanyo Electric Co., Ltd.
Teac Corporation
Toshiba Corporation
Universal Pictures
Warner Home Video Inc.
The Weinstein Company
Warner Bros. and the Warner Music Group are associated with both Blur-Ray (that was a typo, but I think I'll leave it) and HD-DVD, as are Paramount, New Line, HBO, Dreamworks, and several other studios. DVD didn't have opposition like Blu-Ray and HD-DVD have with each other, making the future of either less certain than that of DVD. Also, as has been mentioned above, DVD was already quite successful before the PS2 came out. Another thing Blu-Ray has against it is HD-DVD's association (in the minds of potential customers) with DVD, which people already like now. People in general will have to have Blu-Ray explained to them, but HD-DVD can easily be interpreted by anyone off the street as high-definition DVD.
I don't know what kind of HD content you've been seeing, but high bitrate HD (not the "HD lite" you get from DirecTV and most cable and broadcast providers) on a good set or projector (especially one with a 1080p converter/doubler) is just stunning. There is no way you could possibly confuse it with 480 line material. If I could buy a player for $200 or maybe even $300 and get a decent selection of discs from NetFlix, sure, I'd go for it. I'd prefer to go the HD-DVD route just so I don't get stuck with some screwed up Sony format though.
You know, when you get down to it, the DRM and format issues are relevant to freakin' entertainment. It's not like they're being applied to your house.
I'd like to hack content as much as the next guy, and do sometimes, but at some point you're just listening to music or watching a movie. And frankly, if you're a naive consumer, it's fairly consumer-friendly.
DRM and format wars are onerous, but they don't affect our livelihoods or for the most part freedom of speech. It's fun to fight that battle, and it's probably a good battle to fight, but there are more important ones. I try to keep my outrage subdued nowadays.
Honestly there's only so much detail that intrigues me. There is a point of diminishing returns ....
...just to be clear, you went out and bought a Blu-ray player or a tickle-me-elmo? I haven't heard of any TMX-enabled blu-ray players...
"Murphy was an optimist" - O'Toole's commentary on Murphy's Law
I just bought the Panasonic DMP-BD10 from Crutchfield and got it two weeks ago. The single layer disc releases show the exact same artifacting as the 1080i broadcast versions do. It's clearly obvious that they're not re-encoding to use less compression and show off the format; rather, they're using the broadcast versions compressed to fit in a 6-MHz bandwidth, which look good if there's not too much motion (like a field of grass or leaves on a tree in the wind) and no sunsets (or other light-to-dark gradients). And although I've not done an HD-DVD/Blu-Ray side-by-side comparison, I'd guess they're using the same bit streams for both formats to save costs rather than spend money showing off how much better each format is than the other!