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Broadcom's Treaty In the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD War
eldavojohn writes "For a while there, I didn't know what to buy. Blu-Ray or HD-DVD? Which would be the leader? Only a fool would buy discs of the technology that would be the next Betamax. Fortunately, my dilemma has been solved by Broadcom. From the article: 'Consumer and communications chip supplier Broadcom Corp. Thurs. (Nov. 9) introduced what the company labeled the first single-chip solution to support both Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD standards.' I guess I'll just wait until I can get a player that will play them both."
For those of you who claimed that the porn industry would decide this war (as was speculated in the beta max/VHS war), they've decided to choose both technologies. So that is no longer really the deciding factor. Are we going to see movies and studios side with the separate technology and the consumer simply use both?
My work here is dung.
Buy neither. Technology designed by lawyers should not be rewarded.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
i don't see any reason to buy into either one. i'm not planning on getting a new tv any time soon, and i don't need to pay even MORE per movie.
-- lol pwned
Sony has so far refused to allow Blu-Ray licensing to any device that plays nice with both formats. They still have too much at stake to let anyone give the consumer a choice that may not be theirs.
The visual benefits are marginal right now.
:P
I know, I know. 480p vs 720p vs 1080p...blah blah blah.
Listen, how much is it REALLY worth to go drop $1000+ on an HD player that only reads certain discs? I've intentionally been waiting for dual/triple format players to hit the market before buying.
Also, I've been quietly hoping inside someone would step up with a better format that isn't DRM encumbered. I'd likely suffocate holding my breath though.
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
I'm just going to build a HTPC with both a BluRay and HD-DVD drive... (Granted, you can't buy HD-DVD drives and I can't find a fanless graphics card with the MPAA's blessing, HDCP.)
No, I will not work for your startup
This is a bargain considering to purchase HD-DVD and Blueray drives individually would easily cost $1700 or more.
Never ascribe to malice what can be adequately attributed to ignorance. -Napoleon
there are patents on the BlueRay tech that may prevent legal players from doing both formats - the chip may support both but not necessarily the players
At the moment, both formats seem too powerful to lose. They both have big backers, and a signficant studio input. As no clear leader has emerged, dual format would seem to be sensible for any early adopters. Why back only one, when you can back two? Price, of course, is going to be the deciding factor - as long as it is comparable to seperate player prices, it will do well. Another interesting point it raises is whether the two might be taken for different purposes - maybe HD-DVD being chosen as a cheaper alternative, and then Blu-ray chosen for special edition discs with extra content?
Ricoh has developed a laser that can read both formats too. I'm sure we'll see hybrid players sometime next year.
--Ajay
The industry has transitioned from "Just look at all the great things you can do with technology!!!!" to "Oh, crap. People can do way too many things with technology."
The new generation of hardware, software, and consumer electronics they're trying to cram down our throats offers only minimal improvements over the old stuff in order to try to get the consumer to give up all the things they used to be able to do.
This is the reason that I'll never buy either of these products. I'm pretty happy with DVDs, thank you very much.
Is there even a market for Blu or HD-DVD's? I would think the market is shifting to downloads.
"Simplify, simplify, simplify!" Thoreau
Well what about NEC? http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-10/11/conte nt_5189776.htmChip.
Been there done that last month. Any players with it yet?
It won't be that easy.
This just levels the field. What happens when one of the formats wins, and in a year or two after that DVD makers try to save money by making DVD players that only play the winning format. The reason why DVD makers support VCD, CD, MP3, MPEG, AVI and all those other damn formats is because those formats live and customers ask for them, not because they have any sympathy for a customer who might be one of those few who has a betamax.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
For all of the "Buy neither, there is only a marginal difference over regular DVD"...I present the following: http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=483968 For the record, it hurts my eyes to watch a regular DVD after watching an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Disc.
"Your year long anit-Sony/PS3 FUD campaign has been a total waste of everyone on Slashdot's time."
Anti-Sony FUD campaign? That's a funny thing to call Sony's marketing tactics.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
This was inevitable, and I'm surprised it even took this long. It's DVD+/-RW all over again...
There wont be any legal dual format players any time soon. The Sony Blu-Ray license prohibits HD DVD playback in the same machine.
AFAIK, both HD DVD and Blu-ray players currently on the market already use the same previous-generation Broadcom chip. And the Sigma Designs wonderchip has claimed to support both formats for a year or two. But a dual-format chip only means that you can use the chip to build either a Blu-ray player or an HD DVD player; licensing, physical differences, and firmware development cost will probably prevent dual-format players from happening.
Wireless drivers for Linux!
Coming in 2020.
Join the anonymous, help develop the network: http://www.i2p2.de
Try HD-VMD?
I'm not saying anything about buying other things early. I bought my 360 the day it came out and I have shelled out way too much to get imports from Japan on all kinds of stuff but with competing formats I wait a few years and see how things go. Does anyone remember the DVD fiasco although the hardware was the same people had all kinds of formats that not all DVD players could play. It was a little over a year after DVDs came out that I went ahead and got a player. I had no intention of buying some thing only to find out no one makes any thing for it in less than a year. One of these formats is bound to die and I refuse to get stuck with hardware that is still new but obsolete. Both these formats could go away quick once the new holographic discs come out. They can hold around 300 GB and the company claims it can scale up to 1.5 TB a disc! I don't know about 1.5 TB seems a little far fetched to me but the 300 GB is exciting in itself. At that point who needs a huge hard drive? I just need a handful of holographic discs and a HD big enough for my os and installed apps.
WTF?
And you think the price of gas is expensive!
What makes you think that there will not be thousands of factories in China pumping out DVD players (and DVD drives for computers) and SD TVs for years to come?
-- To dream a dream is grand, but to live it is divine. -- Leto ][
If the chip is as good as my broadcom wireless, you'll be lucky to actually see either format (like I am sometimes lucky enough to see a AP in the same room).
Good luck getting any of the customizable goodness that makes HTPCs such a great win.
Playback is going to be windows vista 64bit only, you can go screw yourself if you use anything else.
Personally I'll skip both those coaster technologies until there is a reliable Linux player.
If the Motion Picture Ass. of America reads this, then I will do what ever is easiest of the three options:
1) Play the HD movies from the legal optical medium, on my Linux box, with an opensource player.
2) Play the HD movies from harddisk, downloaded fron the Net, on my Linux box, with an opensource player.
3) Play the SD movies from the legal optical medium, on my Linux box, with an opensource player.
Notice I didn't mention Windows Vista or Standalone players as I consider both to be useles junk.
-- To dream a dream is grand, but to live it is divine. -- Leto ][
What on EARTH were they thinking creating 6 different "Standards"?!
We now have 480i, 480p, 720i, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p.
Most hi-def displays look really good at exactly one of those 3 pairs. And then to add in 2 DRMed disc standards? Whose genius idea was this? I feel sorry for anyone non-technical trying to figure out which TV they want.
(And while I'm ranting -- WHY oh WHY are widescreen LCD monitors 1680X1050 instead of 1080p?!)
"What do you mean I can't burn this (in all appearances identical to a DVD-R) DVD+R in this device?"
"Why doesn't my DVD-R work in this machine?"
"What will be the new standard?"
"What kind should I buy?"
"Which one's better?"
Fast forward a couple of years, and suddenly an internal DVD-burner for all formats (and now even dual-layer) can be bought for $100 or less, which makes the difference pretty much moot from a consumer point of view. It was only the bleeding-edge adopters who purchased the technology early who possibly got screwed -- and since both formats are still in use, it's not like people with an old burner can't burn/play their format of choice. The same thing will happen with the next generation, and so long as the format of your choice still displays fine on your $XX,XXX television, nobody will care. Okay, except for a few audio/vido-philes and the people trying to make money off of a proprietary format.
Exactly. I just needed to buy some blank DVD's and CD's for my business. And to be honest, I didn't even look or care whether or not they were +/-R or whatever. The trend has always been for hardware to incoprate multiple standards. I don't see why this one would be any different. In a few years, when I need to buy some more DVD's (at the local drugstore, no less), I probably won't care whether they're dual layer DVD, Blue-Ray or HD. eh. I never understood why geeks got their panties in a bunch over this in the first place.
I don't really care a flying fuck. I don't care if the file I download is Blueray-rip or HD-DVDRip. Really it makes no difference what so ever :D
:p
And yes, it's legal to download movies in my country of residence
Yes, but does it run Linux? Eventually (if this becomes legally viable) Blue-Ray/HD-DVD optical drives will come out for computers and someone is gonna start shouting for Linux drivers. I seriously doubt that it'll be an easy task, considering Broadcom's track record; those d*** WIFI drivers have been a long time coming, no thanks to them. I expect Linux compatibility around the time Debian Stable uses IceWeasel 2.0 or Slackware ships the 2.6.x kernel by default. *glare*
This is probably on the fast track to killing both if one or the other isn't decided. If you look at the costs at ramping up production of bluray or hd-dvd it's not worth it. Current facilities that produce DVD's took millions to tool. Unless the consumers actually put their weight behind one, these places are probably just going to keep pressing DVDs.
What you are forgetting are the many presses that are going to be converted anyway to press PS3 games, which all come on Blu-Ray - since the factories will be converted anyway, it makes it cheaper over the long run to go with Blu-Ray for publishing.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The Broadcom press release yesterday seemed to doom Pioneer/Sony because their player is based on Sigma and porting the millions of lines of code to Broadcom for dual format would take years. In reality, most of the work is in software. The SoC's are format agnostic. It would be easier to dual boot BP06 and a port of HD06 on the Sigma than port BP06 to Broadcom for the dual format support.
Given the complexity of the specs, don't be suprised to see a partnership between Pioneer and Toshiba to share code bases and don't be suprised if the box requires a reboot to switch formats.
Now, I'm aware that anti competition laws usually only apply to monopolies, which sony certainly is not. However, it seems like there should be *some* law against "you can't use any of our competitors products in conjunction with this" licenses.
Furthermore, how is it that anyone needs a license? Isn't the format and technology well understood, or if not, couldn't it be reverse engineered? Are there patent constraints that I don't know about?
Your year long anit-Sony/PS3 FUD campaign has been a total waste of everyone on Slashdot's time. The Slashdot community has been begging you to go find somewhere else to wage your idiotic and sad little war against 'teh evil Sony'.
There are some six million 500 or 600 dollar BluRay playing PS3 about to be sold over the next few months. 1080p set prices are in freefall. The PS3 is demoing HDMI 1.3a support.
It has been pretty sad, hasn't it? Now we see PS3 PREORDERS going for 2k+ on eBay. I always said that Zonk and Slashdot were going to look pretty foolish after the PS3 release, and it looks to be the case.
If Slashdot ever implements story tag search, just try a search for "zonked" and see the full glory of the Zonk Anti-Sony campaign before you.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I HATE resolutions higher than 720x480. Now and then I record HDTV and files with higher resolutions 1) take too much space 2)the quality increase compared to 720x480 is not significant. I am very nearsighted and for that I dont own a 'Big Screen' TV; I dont have a TV at all, I watch everything on my computers. 3) High resolution files are much harder to convert to more compact video formats (linux transcode crashes or even refuses to work with such files)
HDTV and the new optical videodisks (Blu Ray, etc) are TOTALLY USELESS for me, whenever possible I prefer to record SDTV (or whatever the name is)- the resolution of 704x480 is all I need and is much easier to handle (you dont need a 3GHZ P4 to play mpg2 at resolutions of 704x480), more importantly, the files are much smaller and easier to convert to mpg4.
When the new optical disks will become cheaper, I will used them ONLY for data storage.
Not to feed the troll, but hasn't Sony already cut their target 4 million by end of year to 2 million, maybe less because of laser shortages? That would make it difficult to ship 6 million "over the next few months".
This news is a bit old, and seems to be missing the rumor that Blu-Ray licensees are prohibited (by license) from making dual-players. It's a fact that EC is looking into Blu-Ray contract, and some are saying this is the reason.
(8-DCS)
Released a chip to do the same thing about a month ago...and of course, I read about RIGHT HERE ON /. Jeezus!
"My immediate reaction is "WTF? What kind of moron doesn't make things 64-bit safe to begin with?" Linus
If you can have SACD/DVD-A players - no reason not to have hd dvd/bd players. There were 3 announcements about universal players that were quickly withdrawn - by Samsung, LG and Pioneer (actually a drive announcement). So it is possible there are contractual agreements in place to prevent it for the time being (probably 2006 ?). The big step in universal players is not the SOC - already the toshiba HD DVD player and the Samsung BD player use the same chip. What is critical is the drive (in particular the OPU).
karma : former act as leading to inevitable results
Even if all this tech came together and formed a great hybrid player, it still doesn't resolve the central issue of which format to support. I mean, what format are you going to buy your media in? It's great it supports both, you can always rent or Netflix either, but you still may find yourself several years down the road with a library of movies in an obsolete format. The player is only a small part of the problem. Additionally, it doesn't solve the issue for the retailer either. Space in stores is finite, and you can be sure that no retailer wants to reduce the variety of merchandise just so they can carry three formats of every title.
You might not see any hybrid players coming from Japan or the US, but it wont be long before the same Chinese electronics manufacturers that have been making region free DVD players for years will be making blue laser players with all the bells and whistles you want. Check ebay in a few months, but just don't expect a warranty or well written instruction manuals.
Looks like we're right on track.
-Peter
Go into Best Buy or Circuit City and the first thing you see on display in the AV section is a Blu Ray setup. Sony is already winning brand recognition simply because they have a cooler and more memorable name for their format. The technical differences between the two formats are nearly a moot point for most consumers, so the easy to remember cool name will win.
You must be the guy who walks around in public, and just shouts his own personal prefence at the top of his lungs.
Now run along, and tell everyone how you don't like chocolate ice cream.
I live on a dollar a day in South Africa... I don't have any vehicles at all. For some reason, I'm not interested in buying the new truck-bed liner.
Thank you for correcting the hordes of people going around claiming that people WANT and NEED to pay more for things that won't benefit them at all. It's a brave stand for you to take, on such a controvercial topic.
Seriously guys, why does utterly pointless, banal, redundant crap like this get modded up?
Why do people feel the need to explain that, since they don't immediately want or need a product, it should be taken off the market?
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
When only TVs made are HD and your TV dies what do you do? When only DVD players made are DVD/HD-DVD and yours dies what do you do?
Nobody would make exclusively high-def technology that works exclusively with the new formats - especially when there's more money to be made by selling the cheaper DVD/480p stuff.
The smell of dollars will effectively keep any one company from suppressing something consumers want. There will be a market for "regular" TVs for a long time to come - and that means money for companies to keep making them.
DATABASE WOW WOW
100 bucks says that the new chip is a Dorito.....
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
Ok, so whyh should I give a damn about Sony's Blu-ray format when Sony makes obscenely horrible displays? By that, I mean, plasma, LCD, etc. Further more, does anybody keep their video discs in 100% abrasive-free environments? No.
From an article by Dan Bell I found on Ricoh's new Blu-Ray+HD-DVD laser:
The data layer of the Blu-ray Disc resides 0.1 mm from the disk's surface, while the HD-DVD data layer is 0.6-mm deep from the disk's surface, the same as DVD disks. Cd's have a data layer depth of 1.1 mm from the disk surface.
What does this mean? Expensive discs that are EXTREMELY DAMAGE-PRONE!
Sony needs to understand that they are beginning to produce actual junk.
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
It's November, the start of the Christmas Buying Season
HD-DVD: $399
Blu-Ray: $999
Unless Sony cuts the price in half by Black Friday, it's game over for Blu-Ray
You have violated Robot's Rules of Order and will be asked to leave the future immediately.
or has it?
v d.htm
Blu-Ray can hold much more data.
They'll release the 50 gb dual layer.
Sure HD-DVD has more backwards compatibility but consider the metaphor that knowledge of history books doesn't guarantee winning a war: intelligent quality does.
I read on xbox's website http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/xbox360/whyhdd
that the only unique reason Microsoft chose HD-DVD was its greater durability. But Microsoft is undermining that durability is a trivial consideration and that Blu-Ray disks are going to hold up on par with HD-DVD in taking the common scuffs.
This article is an example of how different the digital age is compared to the old days when VHS and Betamax were competing. Today you can get a DVD player at Wal-Mart even cheaper than VHS. Digital tech gets so cheap so fast that most homes have several DVD players. There is really no "risk" to adopting Blu-Ray or HD-DVD right now. Both players will be dirt cheap in 5 years. Combos will exist. You'll want to upgrade to a $50.00 burner in a few years anyway, so why worry about the uber-expensive player you're purchasing today?
There's no place like 127.0.0.1
576 scanlines should be enough for anyone.
You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
.... when DVD Jon has the cracks ready please.
If I can't play on my Linux boxes I am not interested.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.