Slashdot Mirror
PS3 Opened For Pictures
An anonymous reader writes "As all of you surely know by now, the PS3 has just been released in Japan. What you might find interesting, however, is that among those 80 000 happy PS3 owners (or self-appointed resellers) was at least one who decided it was his or her sacred mission to crack this puppy open for a peek inside. About the article, it is in Japanese. Someone who knows enough of this fabled language of wonder well enough would do well to offer some translations, although I don't really suspect that the story is the most important thing here..."
Ugh. Japanese is annoying, hah.
November 11th, the Playstation 3 was released.
People are talking a lot about the quantity initially available, etc, but the product is also gaining attention because of positive features such as the Blue Ray drive and other hardware (CELL?).
The 60GB hard drive version can be purchased, so you'll see information on it right now.
First the site will discuss all the basic information of the product, and then go into detail on each section.
1. The package is heavy.
2. Here is the list of contents in the package.
3. Here's a picture of the box open
4. Here is a list of what comes with the package.
5. Here's a picture of the back.
6. Here's a picture of the left.
7. Here's a picture of the right.
8. Here's the memory card reader.
9. You can access the HDD slot.
10. Here's the 60GB Seagate hard drive.
Note
When dissassemblnig the product, you lose the manufacturer's warranty.
The PC Watch editorial staff is not responsible for any damage that my might occur if you take apart your model. It will damage the unit.
The editors of PC Watch will not answer any questions submitted about taking apart the product.
More photos:
1. The warning seal is similar to the PS2
2. When the seal is peeled off, "VOID" becomes visible.
3. Under the warning seal is a special screw which must be removed to get the cover off.
4. When you remove the large screw, the cover can be opened.
5. The cable which is connected to the cover goes to the memory card reader.
6. Removing the case shows you the BD drive and power supply.
7. Look at the power supply. It is a direct 100V power supply. The power supply is small.
8. The baseplate on the front side of the power supply is likely for separating the wireless networking from the power supply, along with the necessary cables.
9. When the BD drive, power supply and wireless networking system is removed, you can see the motherboard seal and the heatsink.
10. The the bottom of the case is removed, you can see the huge cooling fan who is not visible from outside the case.
11. Difference angle of the cooling fan. There is approximately 16cm of contact area for the fan.
12. You can see the fins for the heatsink and cooling system.
13. The cooling fan removed.
14. The heatsink removed, you can see the cooling piping.
15. Here's the motherboard top.
16. Here's the motherboard bottom.
17. Here are for big chips. The leftmost side is probably for the PS software emulation.
18. The next chip is the graphics chipset.
19. Under the seal of the graphics chipset, we see 4 chips.
20. The graphics memory is made by Samsung
21. The right most chip is a Sony CXD2973GB.
22. Not sure what this says, but it is connected with a lot of wires.
I read the headline to the story, and then saw the pictures of the PS3. That thing looks like a flatbed scanner! Opened for Pictures indeed...
I am used to surfing sites where the pictures are the important thing
the ps3 is so beautiful inside. it makes me want to... i find it quite scary to have the ps2 on a chip. technology moves wayyy too fast and i can't find my tin foil hat!
Translation by Google
View http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHS07EFGZ3g&eurl= to see japaneses opening a PS3 with nothing more than a screwdriver !
In other news, they sell on eBay for $1400-1600.
:-)
So those are some pretty expensive pictures you're Slashdotting
The top states that they got a ps3 and really wanted to look inside. The big red box states that opening your ps3 will void the warranty, they will not answer any questions about doing so, and you won't be able to return it to the shop if you open it.
Monstar L
I found in interesting that PS3 has compact flash and SD card slots, in addition to memory stick. Pretty cool I guess, but I would have only expected Sony's proprietary (and not that expensive anymore) memory stick.
Am I the only one on Slashdot who thinks PS3 will eventually be a huge hit? Look forward 4 years down the line, and I think this console has better chances than Xbox 360 or the Wii (which I have pre-ordered). I'm sure the 360 will eventually have HD-DVD built in BTW.
Oh
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
Hey, thanks for the circuit board pics. I just figured out where to solder the modchip!
There's already takeaparts of the US version, in english.
http://dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=4908
The Google Translation of this page is surprisingly easy to understand.
With the first link, the chain is forged.
Part 1, 2, 3, 4.
They managed to not have a huge power brick sitting outside of the console and they managed to fit PS1 and PS2 full backwards compatability. I smell a Final Fantasy marathon!
Otherwise, it looks like a well built console. Hopefully the reports of blu ray lasers deaths and disk read errors are slim to none.
In Soviet Russia, dots slash you!
How do you say slashdotted in Japanese?
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
admit it
http://www.olufs.com/jens/cd32.jpg/
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=4908
Here is the google translation:
e ws/ps3link.htmt m
November 11th, PLAYSTATION 3 was sold.
But sale quantity and the like becomes topic tend, has become the product whose, good point such as CELL and loading of BD drive is many even hardware.
Because 60GB version could be procured, you will try seeing content right away.
First, it is the schedule which sends the bulletin compilation, after that keeps introducing the individual product.
Package. Weight is heavy very Contents of package When the box is opened
Packing thing summary Substance rear Substance left side
Substance right side surface Memory card leader
The HDD slot can access the user As for HDD of 60GB Seagete make
note
When disassembly/remodelling was done, guarantee of the manufacturer becomes unable to receive.
This reading the article, the damage which it occurs the behavior which it did with (disassembly and the like), the PC Watch editorial staff or the manufacturer, the shop which is purchased does not owe the criticism.
The description regarding internal constitution and the like is the thing in regard to the individual which the editorial staff uses, it is common with it does not limit concerning all products
PC Watch in the editorial staff, concerning this article to individual question it cannot answer the inquiry.
The warning seal which is similar to PS2. When this is peeled off, repair becomes unable to receive When the seal is peeled off, the letter "of VOID" floats and rises
Under the warning seal the special screw which is removed, most the cover outside is removed The screw whose large number is long is removed, finally the chassis opens The cable which has extended to the cover above with just 1, is connected to the card leader
When the upper cover of the case is removed. The left BD drive, the right the [hu] has gone down with power source Entrance of power source. It is not the AC adapter, 100V enters directly. Power source capacity you feel comparatively as for power source small The baseplate which is on front side of power source seems like related to wireless LAN from the seal and wiring etc
When BD drive and power source, the wireless LAN baseplate is removed, finally the seal of the motherboard is visible. As for central stay for fixing of heat sink When the case of bottom side is removed, the enormous cooling fan which is not visible so far is expressed Changing angle, the cooling fan which you saw. There is approximately 16cm with the pouring transfer
Around the cooling fan with the heat sink, the fin is visible When the cooling fan is removed Removing the heat sink, when it is turned over. The heat pipe is running
The motherboard surface (* the large picture opens in another window)
Motherboard back (* the large picture opens in another window)
Four big tips/chips are visible on the motherboard. The leftmost side EE+GS. It is thought one for operation of the software for PS2 Being next "is RSX" of the graphic tip/chip
When the heat spreader of RSX is peeled off, GDDR3 memory is expressed 4 tips/chips The graphic memory of Samsung make is designated as on module
Being on the right side the is SONY make controller "CXD2973GB" Under right side CELL. "CXD2964GB" and type turn are struck. RSX it is connected with very thick pattern
The home page of SCE
http://www.scei.co.jp/
PLAYSTATION 3 home page
http://www.jp.playstation.com/ps3/
-related article
"Play station 3" article link collection (GAME)
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/backno/n
PLAYSTATION 3 link collection (AV)
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/link/ps3.h
(2006 November 11th)
[Reported by date@impress.co.jp]
---- aut viam inveniam aut faciam
As of 11/13/06 11:42AM CST the site is down, not even a ping comes back
PLAYSTATION®3 allows any desired third-party system software to be installed on it besides its system software provided by Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. Details will be posted on this site soon.
Interesting, no? Add that to the fact that there are 3rd party memory cards supported, and no wacky media formats in the PS3's OS (its all MP3/AAC/MPEG2/MPEG4), and makes one hope, distantly, that Sony may be changing their ways...
If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
Found this blog article (from a few days ago), which seems to have about the same pics and a translation.
Google translation: "Memory card leader"
Is that some kind of ethnic humor?!
Bigtime Consulting - "We're the best because we cost the most"
Hey, I'm impressed by the smallness of the heatsink. I thought four chipsof this oomph would need a big heatsink. That's not bad at all. Someone who has one: How hot is the chassis when it's running?
It's not the engineers job. That is the designers job. Designers work on aesthetics and engineers work making sure that the designers idea is feasible.
Ooo man the floppy drive is broken. No wait. The computer is just upside down.
Let my new 7-digit UID be a lesson to all - write down your passwords.
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F %2Fpc.watch.impress.co.jp.nyud.net%3A8080%2Fdocs%2 F2006%2F1111%2Fps3.htm&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&safe =off&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools/
Ok, all fine and interesting, but looking at pictures is really not going to be of much help, so how about an English translation? I know that Americans and other English speakers (and writers) are so "language challanged", but really folks...
I guess it's not really real until someone takes it apart! Now I believe!
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
For great justice, open up every game console!
Remember kids, tin foil doesn't work, so use LeadHat.
I guess they weren't expecting it.....
Slash-for-Thought
My submission yesterday had video, too. And a disturbing link with a horror movie... :)
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F %2Fpc.watch.impress.co.jp.nyud.net%3A8080%2Fdocs%2 F2006%2F1111%2Fps3.htm&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&safe =active&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools
Is it a bad sign that I find these pictures sexy?
In AD 11/11 console war was beginning.
The PS3 contains a board with the word 'Sony' printed on it. All over this board (and through it) are metal tracks connecting bits called 'components'. Many of these components are black squares known as 'chips'. Some of these chips are bigger than the others. Among these are the 'CPU' and the specialized 'graphics chips'. There are some other components like little itty bitty cannisters called 'capacitors' and teeny-weeny rectangles with metal ends called 'surface mount resistors'. There's also a metal box called a 'hard drive' and lots of wires. And there's probably a fan.
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
I thought that Sony was closing down PS2/3 resellers, at least those who sell Japanese units to Europe. Are they available?
/.ed
By the way, the article 500'ed out on me...
http://lyricslist.com/
It is nice to see PS3. And we all know the games will look nice.
But will it cook you breakfast at the same time? Scrambled Eggs is good.
\
PS3? Wiiiiiiiiiii!
Gravity is a contributing factor in nearly 73 percent of all accidents involving falling objects. -Dave Barry
"They forgot to comment on how shiny it is. You know that shiny sells."
Well then, bald men should be leaping off the shelves then.
You mean 40,000 happy customers, 40,000 happy eBay sellers and 40,000 happy, although poorer, eBay purchasers.
The hard disk is the exact same model that comes in 60 gig MacBooks. MacBook owners who have upgraded their hard drives and still have the original should buy the model with the small disk and pop in the old MacBook drive.
$ whatis themeaningoflife
themeaningoflife: not found
Not only were you not the first reply, you posted after someone who managed acquire or create and then post a tranlation of the submitted article, which was in Japanese.
Not sure but the Japanese word for that is, but I believe the gamer term is pwned
When the posters fear their moderators, there is tyranny; when the moderators fears the posters, there is liberty.
Some of the most potentially problamatic components (blu-ray, hard drive, power supply) seem to be easily swappable. A big upgrade over the design of the original 'fat' ps2. Good move on sony's part.
Try $9100.
What I really want to know if any software PS3 emulators are out yet. I'd like to try this thing out on my Inspiron 6000 to see what all the hoopla is about. Sure, it might have to skip a frame every now and then, but I can live with that.
Dan East
Better known as 318230.
:-(
I'm pretty sure Zonk would come up with something bad to say if it turned out that all the PS3 proceeds went towards buying orphans puppies.
there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
located here: http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=4908/
Love the parting shot.
No, I did not read the f***ing article!
In A.D. 2101 ....
War was beginning.
Captain: What happen?
Mechanic: Somebody set up us the bomb.
Operator: We get signal.
Captain: What !
Operator: Main screen turn on.
Captain: It's You !!
Cats: How are you gentlemen !!
Cats: All your base are belong to us.
Cats: You are on the way to destruction.
Captain: What you say !!
Cats: You have no chance to survive make your time.
Cats: HA HA HA HA
Captain: Take off every 'zig' !!
Captain: You know what you doing.
Captain: Move 'zig'.
Captain: For great justice.
Bring on the mods!
[%] Cingular Ringtones
Not just those two. There are two more parts as well.
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
Japanese uses a topic-comment sentence structure, as opposed to subject-verb-object that we use in English.
English: I did Sally.
Japanese: About Sally, I did her.
Other cool tidbits of info regarding Japanese -
Verbs always come at the end. Like Yoda-speak.
Since verbs always come at the end, they use single syllables called particles (I think) to denote what is the subject, what is the object, etc, since those (subject/object/etc) can go anywhere in the sentence. They also use a particle for topic, which is why it's so central to their grammar.
In fact, the central focus of topic means that Japanese can quite often drop things that are sufficiently in context, even to the point that the sentence consists only of a single verb. This is similar to the following scenario -
Me: Did you go to Tokyo this summer?
You: Went.
Their language also only has a bit over 100 different sounds, and the syllable structure is almost always open-ended (i.e. ends with a vowel). Seriously, check it out - all Japanese words end in either a vowel or the letter n. They're also missing a few letters we have (like l and v - ask someone who speaks Japanese natively to say the word "love" hehe)
:(){
Not that I'm bitter or anything but my (much better) writeup/submission of the same thing yesterday included a link
S 3%20Disemboweled/?start=all
to the ENTIRE photo set of SEVENTY-ONE images. (including a size comparison of the PS3 fan to a BD disc)
http://s137.photobucket.com/albums/q208/chudgoo/P
You're joking right? Only the highest end desktop could hope to beat this thing. It's graphics processor is probably higher end than any desktop GPU available, not to mention the fact that you want to try to run this emulator on a Laptop? and a x86 at that. I may be laughing all day about this one....
Man is the lowest-cost, 150-pound, nonlinear, all-purpose computer system which can be mass-produced by unskilled labor.
there's some computer type circuit boards and stuff in there!
In some countries the mfg. has to prove that it was your actions that broke the device, in order for them not to have to cover damages under warranty.
FRA: STFU GTFO
Where are the prepared sockets to solder the modchip?
I just don't trust anything that bleeds for five days and doesn't die.
I predict a field failure rate in excess of 5% due to heat issues. Mostly the direct result of vent blockage.
I predict substantial customer feedback along the lines of "This fan, why so loud?"
I predict at least one front page story involving a whole unit spontaneously erupting in fire.
b. Heat up sticker with hair dryer and take Exacto knife (any thin, very sharp knife will do) and carefully slide it between PS3 and bottom of the sticker. Work it around, be careful, and should be able to take the sticker off without damaging it (or the plastic itself).
c. When removing screws, don't go apeshit on them. Be gentle and try not to scuff the black oxidization on it. (they can then tell it was taken apart)
>>Similarly, Americans never seem to be able to say Edinburgh or Gloucester correctly.
... Yeeves?"*
:-)
Part of that is because we Americans have places like Edinboro and Glouster, which are at least closer phonetically to the way they're spelled in English. (Corruptions? Probably. But it's what we're accustomed to.) On the other hand...we (obviously) have a state named Nevada. Well, here in Ohio, there is also a town named Nevada. And the locals pronounce it Nuh-vae-duh. Drives me crazy.
If you're not familiar already with the names, you're going to butcher them. I remember the first time I read the name 'Yves'. "Nice to meet you
*Disclaimer: I was 12.
A preposition is a terrible thing to end a sentence with.
(in the second part)
Now I understand why the PS3 floats in the advertisements.
Also, the proper wording is 'first post'. Or perhaps, 'frist post', or similar variations.
This individual just cracked open a piece of machinery that's going for more than my car would on ebay. I'm in the wrong job. *sigh*
All your base are belong to us?
Im more impressed with the power supply the PS3 comes with, the site shown here doesn't display it, but here is the image...Powersupply
Truley remarkable as to how small it is, and can power up the PS3. You can see other images here
Did that one come from Google, or from Altavista/Babelfish?
Well, for gits and shiggles ("shits and giggles" for you Spoonerisms-deprived individuals) I thought I'd paste that English into Altavista, change it from English (prev translated) to Japanese, then from Japanese back to English....hmmm... Somehow, skin-peeling became part of the dialogue...: (The ++++ are where I parsed the original J-English translation in an attempt to not end up with one big-ole paragraph... Altavista got that wrong, too... it seems..)
Here goes:
"PLAYSTATION November 11th, 3 was sold. But
++
the quantity and the same type of sale are tend in the topic, it became, it becomes the product which is loading many of the good point and BD drive uniform hardware like the cell. It meaning that 60GB edition can insert in the hand,
++
you try the fact that you look at contents directly. First ++,
accumulation of the report which continues to introduce the individual product, after that you send is schedule.
++ package. Weight when the box opens, the contents where the package is heavy
++ where it is extraordinary the left side of the rear substance of the outline substance of packing thing
++ the leader of the memory card of the surface of the right side of the substance
++ the HDD slot in regard to HDD of 60GB Seagete when does to make
++++++ where it can access the user note
++++++ disassembly/remodelling is done, guarantee of the manufacturer becomes not to be received. Conduct (disassembly and the same type), compilation staff that of the watch of PC does
++ this book-reading article, with damage that happens or or the manufacturer, does not owe the store criticism which is purchased. As for internal constitution and the description regarding the same type commonness with that it is thing in regard to the watch of all products PC of the compilation staff regarding this article in the individual question which cannot answer to inquiry the individual whom the compilation staff uses, in regard to that it does not limit, is.
+++the seal of warning which resembles to PS2. When this is peeled the skin,
++ where repair floats, rises and becomes the seal when is peeled the skin, not to be received, the letter "of the space" as for most special screws which are removed under the seal of warning outside covering large number is long in the card leader, it is removed, when, finally the chassis exactly on the screw which the cable which extends, is connected
++ where it is removed the chart cover when is removed in 1 and the cover you open. BD drive the left went the entrance and right of power source of power source [ ]. That enters the AC adapter, 100V directly, is not. The baseplate which has power source anteriorly in regard to small power source was related to the wireless LAN from sealing and wiring and the like the way, when the power source capacity which you the way feel relatively
++ BD drive and power source, the wireless LAN baseplate being removed, the seal of the motherboard discernibly finally. For central stay of fixing of the deviation from thermal vessel when in case of the side of the lowest being removed, angle of the modification where the enormous discernibly cooling fan is expressed for the present, it is the cooling fan which you saw.
++ where it has approximately 16cm of the movement which you pour around the cooling fan where the deviation from thermal vessel has been attached, as for the fin the cooling fan which at the time of a certain removes the deviation from thermal vessel when being removed, discernibly, it overturned. As for the heat pipe
++ where it is moving the motherboard surface (* in another window you open large image) the motherboard back section (* in another window you open large image)
+++4 large tips/chips with the motherboard discernibly. Side EE+GS of the left edge. 4 tips/chips where "RSX of 1 Tsuga graphics tip/chip for operating the software for PS2 which is next it is
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
It's just mass storage, from what I've read the PS3 can read any file from the card and also write to the card (for transporting things like game saves).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
From watching HD video at home from Dish, I am really ready for an HD player and have stopped buying any DVD's for the past six months or so - no point when HD versions will come along before too long.
I can't understand why a site supposedly full of such techno-geeks as Slashdoot has been so against HD media. Yeah it's encrypted and layered in DRM but then so are DVD's. Even without that the PS3 is a great platform for playing other HD media.
I agree Sony is in good shape in the long term, costs will be down and they have truly more next-gen components, video, and controllers than any one other platform.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Feedback on the fans is that they are very quiet.
That's part of the reason for a larger case no doubt, to allow for better airflow and heat transfer.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Every time I make a comment about the Japanese language on slashdot, I learn something new. Thanks!
:(){
A nude ps3...I'm going to show it my O face!
Does this mean PS4 will have a PS3 chip inside?
"And, to some people "profit" is not a dirty word..."
Much like sex, only to those not getting any.
I guess this is as good a time as any to ask what happend to the 3 ethernet ports, 100 usb ports and the 15 HDMI ports?
How am I gonna play with only 1 HDMI PORT??? WHY GOD WHY!?!?!
...unfortunately no one can be told what The Mat^H^H^HGoatse is...they must experience it for themselves...
WHOOSH
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Desu Desu desu
I want to see the dang dmesg output from Yellow Dog (and maybe the an Xorg log) not photos of some chips :-P
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
Except I posted the very same link right here on /. two days ago.
Shit, if I'd known there was enough interest for a whole story on it, I would have submitted it.
I speak Japanese and I have a few comments on your post. I edit the "Japanese in depth" newspaper column published monthly by the Daily Yomiuri (http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/features/language/200 61026TDY15001.htm -- a link to an article about particles). The author is my boss Shigekatsu Yamauchi, also author of Step Up Nihongo (which I edited) the Japanese learning system (textbooks, online study materials, videos, etc.).
> Other cool tidbits of info regarding Japanese -
> Verbs always come at the end. Like Yoda-speak.
This is particularly true in the "gaijingo" that foreigners speak with their teachers, but in actual real life it's more complicated. Yes, verbals come at the end of the predicate, but casual speech is very frequently marked by inverted sentence order. For instance, "mita yo, eiga" (I saw it, you know, the movie (we were talking about)." In polite speech (to a boss, a teacher) one wouldn't speak this way, of course.
Also, the way you've constructed your "tidbit" it sounds like you could be saying that "verbs" come at the ends of all sentences. This is most emphatically not the case. Japanese sentences can end in any of three different predicates: nominal, verbal or adjectival. "Totemo atsui desu ne" (It's very hot, isn't it?) has no "verb" in it (though the English translation has a verb because every English sentence must have a verb). Nominal predicate example: "sono hito wa kirei desu." (I consider 'kirei' and the other so-called "na-adjectives" to be nouns (I prefer to call them nominals) but that's another discussion). "That person (we both know of) is beautiful."
> Since verbs always come at the end, they use single syllables
> called particles (I think) to denote what is the subject, what
> is the object, etc, since those (subject/object/etc) can go
> anywhere in the sentence. They also use a particle for topic,
> which is why it's so central to their grammar.
Yes, they are called "particles." But there are many different kinds of particles and not all of them are single syllables. Several phrase particles are multiple syllables for instance. These go at the ends of "sentences" and impart nuance.
By using the words "subject" and "object" you are introducing into Japanese very western concepts of grammar. There is no "subject" or "object" in Japanese. These concepts are alien to Japanese as they were created in a linguistic environment where the languages being studied were all European. All European languages have subjects and objects. When linguists first started studying Japanese they asked silly questions like, "what is your 'be verb'?" "Where is the subject in this sentence?" Unfortunately, Japanese scholars didn't say, "'be verb'? We don't have one, nor do we need one!" Nor did they say, "Subject? We don't do that!" Instead, we have textbooks that say that the copula "da/desu" is the "be verb" and that "ga marks the subject, (w)o the object," etc. These are oversimplifications that obscure and make the language unnecessarily hard to learn. Particles consistently offer the most difficulty to students of Japanese (as articles are the hardest for students of English).
Your idea of calling it a "topic marker" isn't bad - but "subject" is a term you should avoid because it carries with it all sorts of context that is alien to Japanese. I assume you are speaking of the particle "wa." "Wa" means, "at least," "as for," and carries a feeling of comparison within it. I would contend that calling it a "topic marker" tends to obscure these other functions, which makes it harder to understand when and why Japanese use the particle.
Regarding "object" you must be referring to "(w)o." "O" (as it is pronounced) includes a clear nuance of selection, as among several choices. "Object" clearly lacks a connotation as it is a function of positioning in a sentence. Additionally, "o" can mark things that we wouldn't consider "objects" in European languages.
> In fact, the c
Not possible - if you modded him down then you would have been unable to post the comment, if you had posted the comment first, you would have been unable to moderate the parent. So please don't lie. Thank you.
This tagline was transcoded to result in at least one smirk. If you experience failure to smirk, please consult your Gen
If you couldn't tell, I learned most of my limited Japanese from "Japanese for Dummies", heh.
I knew the difference between Japanese and European languages was huge, and I could tell that the way sentences were formed seemed very odd to me. I was just trying to get the rough idea across, but you articulated much better than I.
:(){
Yes, many Japanese sentences are formed that way. You'll find, if you study Japanese, that your English sentence structure will be affected, at least for a time. I remember a bunch of us would start saying things like, "It's hot today, huh." This was the English equivalent to "kyou wa atsui (desu) nee"! Life imitates studies ...
o m.cgi/
In Japanese, word order is basically free (as long as the predicate is at the end) with particles indicating the function a word has in a sentence. Recall that Latin is similar - because each word conjugates it doesn't matter where you put it, you know what its grammatical relationship is with all the other words in the sentence due to how it is conjugated. Japanese, lacking conjugations like Latin, uses these particles (WHEN NECESSARY!!!) to indicate function. It's something akin to the differences between a stack-based language like FORTH ("Japanese like") than an interpreted language like PERL ("English like). You put a word out there and then tack on a marker to tell you what the word's doing.
Example:
kyou, Akiko, sushi tabemashita. (Today, Akiko, sushi ate).
Nothing wrong with this sentence - it is spoken style.
kyou Akiko wani tabemashita. (today, Akiko, alligator, ate)
WHO did the eating here? That's why you need particles! We don't know, without particles, if Akiko ate alligator or if the alligator ate Akiko. This is the function they serve.
jvp
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learn japanese: http://learnjapanese.poddedcell.net/cgi-bin/blosx
Proper use of the "passive voice" in Japanese is actually quite advanced - generally only found among upper intermediate or advanced students. The passive performs several functions in Japanese that are not found in English.
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It can be used to indicate respect, to insult, or to indicate that something unwanted happened! These last two are actually the same thing, though that might not immediately be obvious.
"Itsu Tokyo ikaremashita ka" ("When did you go to Tokyo (politely)?")
Here the passive is applied to "ikimashita" which is the standard way of saying "went" in "desu/masu style"). This type of usage is very commonly used when first meeting people as a polite way of asking relatively direct questions (note then that it can't be used in situations where you can't ask direct questions of someone). When I was studying in Japan I found that peers in age would very frequently do the "getting to know you" type of questions using this style of politeness. It's not over-the-top, but it's polite enough that you can use it very safely and still not sound overly stiff (learning this sort of balancing act is one of the difficulties we face, as English native, when learning Japanese).
Regarding the "insulting" or "unwanted happening" usage of the passive we look at:
"hoka no hito ni, suwaremashita yo" (Someone else sat there (I'm telling you) (and it sucked
Here, the person who did the sitting is indicated by that versatile location marker "ni" and we know that the person doing the talking was "negatively affected by a sitting." That's actually a very precise translation of the sentence, unwieldy as it sounds in English.
Another one: "sono osushi wa, dareka ni taberaretandayo!" (That sushi (we both know of) was eaten by someone (dammit!)" More technically accurate: "I was negatively affected by an eating (by someone) of that sushi (and that explains my current state)!"
DANGER: Whether you are using "meiwaku ukemi" (troublesome passive voice) or honorific passive voice is indicated by PARTICLE choice!
"Sensei ga koraremashita"
"Sensei ni koraremashita"
You pretty much have to translate both of these, at least colloquially, as "the teacher came (here)."
The first one gets you brownie points (or at least keeps you out of trouble).
The second one might get you in deep miso.
jvp
In Japanese you *never* need to include something that is known through context. It can always be dropped (assumed to be understood) and generally is so dropped when natives are talking to each other. Westerners feel that this lacks clarity and that Japanese is "fuzzy."
... etc.). Ending predicates with "nda" or "ttyatta" (instead of 'ta') also connote emotions. The first says, "it's that ... (which explains something obvious in the context)" and the second is equivalent to "and that explains why I'm happy/sad/angry/frustrated." The grammatical patterns themselves carry emotional content, which is left unspoken.
o m.cgi/
But, Japanese is *FAR* more precise than Western languages in many, many areas. Our languages tell us nothing about the speakers, for instance. You can write down what several Japanese people are saying and show it to other Japanese people and they will be able to tell you, with quite reasonable accuracy, which of the speakers were men or women, what the relative ages of the speakers were, and in cases involving multiple "groups" who was in which group and, depending on how much material you have, what their relationships to each other were in terms of social hierarchy as well (both within and without the groups).
Note that this whole interaction will not include any gender pronouns ("he" and "she" are rarely used in Japanese) and of course Japanese nouns/verbs/adjectives have no gender connotations so all of this information is not being picked up through things like that either. The variations and gradations in politeness will indicate everything - acquiring this skill is a necessary task for students of Japanese.
In this respect English is so vague as to be utterly useless. And the needless repetition of subject matter and objects? A waste of breath.
Also, Japanese words generally have an "ura" (back-side) to them that has some sort of emotional connotation. This makes the language very interesting. In English if I say, "I bought it" then the only way I can tell you anything about how I feel is by changing my enunciation/emphasis on certain words. If I'm mad about having bought it I might have to yell! In Japanese changing one's tone of voice is completely unnecessary. (Your boss could chew you out - a real reaming - without raising his tone at all, as an example.)
"Katyatta!" "katta no desu" "kattyattandayo" "katta sa" "kattyattanda" "kaimashita yo" "kaimashita" are all, basically "bought it" and here we assume that the buyer is known through context (you're standing next to your new car for instance talking to someone). We haven't even included any of the numerous words that indicate "I" ('ore', 'boku', 'watashi', 'watakushi', 'atashi',
"ore, kattyattandayo" is very very different from "watashi, kaimashita" but the difference is less one of meaning and more one of social positioning, politeness and intimacy/revelation of emotions. In the first I can tell you, without any other information, that the person speaking is not talking to his teacher, or even to an older neighbor. Possibly not even to an older in-group member (depends on the traditional-ness of the group itself). The latter is more likely a woman, or the person addressed quite senior to the speaker. The first one means the guy speaking is probably psyched, or alternatively pissed, about having bought the thing (and he views the buying as fully completed). In the second, the lady (probably anyhow) is merely stating that she has bought it, without revealing much about her emotional state regarding the purchase.
jvp
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Learn Japanese: http://learnjapanese.poddedcell.net/cgi-bin/blosx
This is close, but not accurate.
-- quote --
English: Rick likes tenis.
Japanese: rick wa tenisu ga suki da.
Translation: Rick (=TOPIC) tenis (=SUBJECT) likes.
-- end quote --
A proper, technically accurate, English equivalent would be something like "Rick (at least) likes tennis" or "As for Rick (and I'm not talking about anyone else) likes tennis" or even "Rick (compared to unnamed others) likes tennis."
Tennis here is NOT the subject. (If anyone/anything is the 'subject' then it has to be RICK!) "Subject" is a word that only applies to European languages and is useless outside of that framework.
Tennis here is the "AFFECT" for like. English does not have affects (though you can find them in mathematics and when studying linguistics). "Tennis is the 'subject matter'" is reasonably accurate, but it's not "the subject".
Tennis is that which is acted upon by the liking. More technically (quoting from 'Step Up Nihongo' here, which I edited) "the [affective] predicate expresses some state or happening which occurs without someone choosing or deciding that it be so." Rick did not choose to like tennis, he just likes it. That's what the 'ga' indicates. Full coverage of the use of "ga" is a bit more involved, but in this case we should be complete here.
See my thread here regarding "Japanese has no 'subject' or 'object'" for more.
jvp
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learn japanese: learnjapanese.poddedcell.net/cgi-bin/blosxom.cgi
Yes, you could say that "Rick is the subject" here, but it's best to avoid using terms created for analyzing European languages to analyze non-European languages. Doing so avoids confusion and promotes a better understanding of the non-European language.
See, here is an example of why sometimes English can be confusing. "Doing so" - doing what, exactly? Using "Rick is the subject", or "avoid using terms created for analyzing European languages". I know it was the latter, but sometimes it's not so obvious - like when someone asks you to choose between A or B, and you say yes (bad example, I know). It's very confusing, and the consequence of dealing with the confusion is the perceived long-winded-ness.
I imagine that Japanese avoids confusion primarily because it follows such a strict set of grammatical rules.
Technically stated, "Rick wa tenisu ga suki desu" states something like "As for Rick, tennis is the affect of his liking."
I feel like a comparison would be very enlightening right about now. What's the difference between the following two sentences?
1) Rick wa tenisu ga suki desu
2) Rick wa tenisu o suki desu
:(){
-- quote --
See, here is an example of why sometimes English can be confusing. "Doing so" - doing what, exactly? Using "Rick is the subject", or "avoid using terms created for analyzing European languages". I know it was the latter, but sometimes it's not so obvious - like when someone asks you to choose between A or B, and you say yes (bad example, I know). It's very confusing, and the consequence of dealing with the confusion is the perceived long-winded-ness.
-- end quote --
The point generally made is that Japanese is vague and English precise. The reality is that all languages are both vague and precise. It's just that different cultures value different things - so they are precise about different things. Languages are products of culture (while also shaping culture, granted) and as such reflect what's important to that culture. English doesn't value social hierarchy. Japanese considers social hierarchy and acknowledgement of it as of primary importance; so important, in fact, that it is literally impossible to speak in Japanese without indicating the relative social positions of the parties to the conversation. English thinks it's important to mention subjects and objects in almost every sentence; Japanese doesn't. In the end these come down to preferences that people have had who used the language, thus shaping its development over time. Languages change over time, too - and are subject to various influences. English, for instance, has an increasing influence over Japanese as virtually everyone has studied it in Japan now.
-- quote --
I imagine that Japanese avoids confusion primarily because it follows such a strict set of grammatical rules.
-- end quote --
I would say that Japanese avoids social confusion because it follows a very strict set of social mores about communication. The grammar always serves a subservient position to illustration of social status. While this is irritating and irksome (at least initially) to English speakers (particularly Americans), it is simply the way it is - unavoidably so.
-- quote --
I feel like a comparison would be very enlightening right about now. What's the difference between the following two sentences?
1) Rick wa tenisu ga suki desu
2) Rick wa tenisu o suki desu
-- end quote --
The first sentence I've discussed at length in other posts in this thread.
The second is, believe it or not, traditionally considered unacceptable in Japanese grammar. When I was learning Japanese back in the early '90s every Japanese textbook said that 'o suki' or 'o -tai' was wrong. I'm not as confident that textbooks are as dogmatic on this point today.
Now today, more and more Japanese appear to have accepted that the operand "o" can be used with 'suki' and 'kirai,' etc. My impression is that Japanese speakers don't like to use o suki whereas they won't mind o suki as a construction. This seems arbitrary - and I don't have linguistic data to back my feelings up. Consider that a guess worth subjecting to some "participatory observation"-style research.
"O" presumes choice. It means, at heart, that the speaker has selected something, over and above other things. 'Biiru kudasai' and 'Biiru o kudasai' are different in the nuance that the latter has more of a feeling of a choice or selection process being at work.
"Suki" is, from the traditional Japanese grammatical point of view, an affective condition. It's NOT a condition you choose to be in. You like something or someone or you don't. You understand something or you don't. You find something interesting, funny, boring, ugly, etc., or you don't. You can't choose to like something, or to understand something. You can choose to engage in acts that will lead to understanding, but you still can't command understanding directly.
That is, I think, the reason why the 2nd example you gave is traditionally unacceptable.
The case of " ga -tai" vs. " o -tai"
Most books seem to teach both these days. "Back i
If thats the case, wheres the install DVD, so I can buy a 20gig model and replace the HD with a 500GIG HD.
Sonys 60gig HD is like 3x the retail price difference - wifi, pooo on that, who cares, its only a $10 part.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.